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WARHORSE
11-23-2010, 02:30 PM
It all comes down to "What does Denver need?"

Was just watching PFTs rankings of whos jobs are most in jeopardy among NFL headcoaches.


I found it incredible that Florio didnt have Denver number one. Not because I think McD is worse off, I just know hes a Bronco hater.

Heres their ranks:

1. Jeff Fisher

2. Gary Kubiak

3. Mike Singletary

4. Jim Shwartz

5. Eric Mangini


Then he mentioned John Fox and Marvin Lewis.



I pretty much agree with this list. I think Fisher is number one cause I think he wants OUT of that mess. Does Bud Adams SERIOUSLY want to back Vince Young? Incredible.

All these coaches have had some success.

While I love Kubes, he hasnt gotten it done.
I think he can, but its not there for him in Texas.


As for McDaniels chances of being fired......it could happen.
I can also see it not happening.


I hear cries for Gruden......no thanks. Doesnt anyone remember that Gruden lost his lockeroom? Gruden who kept 51 QBs on a roster of 53? Gruden whos
idea of communicating was screaming like Chucky?


No thanks to Gruden. Gruden is the last coach I want to see in here.



But what does Denver need?

Denver doesnt need a new HC imo. Denver needs defensive players, mainly defensive linemen.

Next to that, I think our roster is pretty decent.

Dont tell me Elvis Dumerville and Robert Ayers wouldnt have made a difference last night. While Im not giving Dawk an excuse, he would not have been hung out to dry last night. He missed tackles, and safety is an area of need as well.

Daniel Graham is past his prime. He simply does not offer enough of a threat in the passing game.

I give credit to McDaniels for getting rid of Scheffler, Marshall, etc.

While many crucify him for it, why in the world would we keep them when they are 'me' players?

We could have used Scheffler this year when it comes to ability. What we couldnt and didnt use, is his attitude. If Scheffler were in this lockeroom, he would be mailing it in, and dragging his bad attitude throughout the lockeroom. No thanks.

One thing clear is this: Every outsider who has spoken to the players, has said that they are surprised at how confident they are each week. These guys have not quit. They believe in this coach. All you hear is how well they feel they are prepared each week.

Some will say, a smart headcoach would have been able to deal with a personality like Cutler, Schefflers or Marshalls, and that they could get them to play for them. My thought is, why the hell should that be a headcoaches job to motivate you? And if you are the type of guy who is going to decide he doesnt want to be here because of the headcoach, adios.

Baby sitter is one job a HC should not have to concern himself with. While some HCs flourish in that area, Im glad we are smart enough to bring in self motivated players.

I believe in McD.

Hes made mistakes, true. But I dont blame him for Cutler/Marshall/Scheff, etc. Seems to me there are a whole lotta players willing to play up here.


Think with better defensive talent, our team will go where it belongs: at the top.

If we do draft high, we are in a great draft for that. Lots of QB needs with losts of QBs available. Also, I must say I am not unhappy Miami is experiencing injury difficulty. I want that second rounder to be high as well.


Still faithful, and always will be: BRONCOS!


:salute::salute::salute:

Northman
11-23-2010, 02:33 PM
No offense War, but players claimed they wanted to play for Shanahan, Slowik, etc. Players say a lot of things but if they arent producing it rings pretty hollow. At the end of the day its just about executing and getting it done both on the field and in the coaching ranks.

dogfish
11-23-2010, 02:35 PM
What Does Denver Need?

a real live, honest-to-god professional coaching staff-- preferrably complete with a competent front office. . .

Ziggy
11-23-2010, 02:40 PM
The broncos need a GM that understands how to build a winner in the NFL. Our defensive line is trash. When are the broncos going to make it a priority? Bring in Parcells. He understands that games are won in the trenches. Mcd has a contract to coach. Let him do that, and bring in a real GM.

Lancane
11-23-2010, 02:47 PM
Q: What does Denver need?

A: A hole in the head perhaps? Because let's be honest, it would be about as positive as this season has been for the fanbase.

In all seriousness, Denver needs to wrangle in McDaniels and tell him his bullshit reign is at an end. He needs to coach and focus on that or get his ass on a bus back to Foxboro...if we decide to keep him, then we need to officially hire a true General Manager that has knows his job and can not be overridden by the likes of McDaniels or Ellis.

Superchop 7
11-23-2010, 03:02 PM
Without any shadow of a doubt.....first and foremost is a front office.



Personally, I think the ultimate answer is Dennison as head coach.

For the following reasons.

1) It wouldn't break the bank to get him......we could afford to get rid of the other contracts.

2) Zone blocking scheme......YOU CAN'T WIN WITHOUT BALANCE FROM THE RUN GAME.

3) Excellent offensive mind......Houstons problem IS NOT their offense.

4) Former defensive player.....This is where his heart is and would be his personal priority.

5) Mensa smart........his IQ is VERY high.

6) Organization.......he understands the organization and community.

7) Players coach......A look you dead in the eye and tell you straight personality.

G_Money
11-23-2010, 03:06 PM
Um...

So our less-selfish, self-motivated players have 5 wins in their last 20 games, but you think the talent levels and current coaching staff are fine? :huh:

Defensive players. Yes, we could use some, as you said.

The entire DL is a joke. If Vickerson is our best DL player (and he might be) then I feel I must weep for us.

Our linebacking crew is also lackluster. I understand that everyone loves Doom, but "if Doom were here this wouldn't be happening" just isn't true. The man can get to the QB, but he's useless in pass coverage or run defense. Last year when we were blitzing that was fine, but with the exception of a game or two we've been anti-blitz this year. McDaniels hates to blitz, and the disagreement about that is part of the reason Nolan isn't here any more. And Ayers still hasn't done ANYthing to show he can be a difference-maker.

We're well-prepared? We're confident? We've lost 70% of our games while apparently having good talent, so how is that being prepared? If we're prepared and unable to execute, then we need to fire the talent on the field immediately. Except you like the talent on the field, except for that whole defensive side thing.

Which is it?

If the coaching staff is doing everything they can do and the players are just unable to keep from making stupid mistakes or cannot accomplish their jobs, then the players need to be replaced. By the same guy who hired them, apparently.

If the players are good, but we're losing due to scheme and adjustment issues, or because this coaching staff cannot motivate them, then coaches need to be replaced.

If it's just injury woes, then no need to do anything! Obviously an off-season (plus a lockout) to heal the wounded and we'll be right as rain. A full complement of our talented players running these schemes by these terrific coaches will make us a playoff team with a little bit of draft magic on defense.

Is that where we're at? We're "smart enough" to have self-motivated players who laid down and died against the Raiders in the first quarter. But as you said, a coach shouldn't have to worry about motivating or baby-sitting anyone, he should just call plays. And if those plays don't work, it's probably because of injuries or bad personnel. Which is not the coach's fault, obviously, because even though he and his assistants put the roster together they are not responsible for it.

If we need an entire DL, better corners, new safeties and some LBs, perhaps this roster wasn't made over correctly. Can't get a new DL from the draft immediately - it takes 2-4 years to get defensive linemen to contribute fully, and the bust rate is large.

Still, if we'd taken the time to draft defense 2 years ago, it'd be paying dividends right now. Instead we did the "smart thing" and dumped our productive headcases on offense, then spent a lot of draft picks replacing them - draftpicks we could have spent on defense.

So now instead of having to babysit anyone, we turned over the offensive roster completely. To what end?

2008 offense: 16th in points, 2nd in yards.
2008 defense: 30th in points, 29th in yards.

2010 offense: 19th in points, 10th in yards.
2010 defense: 30th in points, 26th in yards.

Did I mention we are the worst rushing attack in the league? Or that we are next-to-worst at stopping the run?

We have made ZERO progress on defense since replacing the worst DC I have ever seen. We fired his replacement (who was good) for a guy who had never done it before and whose schemes are being exposed on a continual basis.

Maybe it's because he doesn't have the right personnel. And whose fault is THAT?

The same guy who runs a worse offense than we managed 2 years ago with two 1st year tackles and 8 different backs thanks to that injury bug thing, as well as a turnover-prone QB.

I keep the faith with the Broncos. Part of that is pointing out when mistakes are made.

McDaniels has made a plethora of mistakes. Maybe he's still the man for the job. Maybe he's learned from those mistakes.

He has an entire defense to fix, a running game to locate with GPS and a mining crew, and better coaches to hire (assuming any are willing to come work for him after the Nolan incident and Josh's short coaching life expectancy).

Assuming he survives the year.

What does Denver need? A miracle. Or a new head coach.

I'll take either.

~G

cuzz4169
11-23-2010, 03:07 PM
I some what agree...I think the biggest need in Bronco land is a GM.....then we need talent....how many top players do we have at their position on this team? wait ill tell ya...Elvis, Clady, & arguably champ....plz don't say lloyd & orton...1 inflated stat season doesn't make them top players.

BroncoNut
11-23-2010, 03:10 PM
i don't know why things have gone the way they have under the McD regime. I can only speculate, as you only can too War. How do you know how Scheffler's attitude would resonate in the locker room? have you been there or was that just a fantastical dream?

I Eat Staples
11-23-2010, 03:14 PM
I hear cries for Gruden......no thanks. Doesnt anyone remember that Gruden lost his lockeroom? Gruden who kept 51 QBs on a roster of 53? Gruden whos
idea of communicating was screaming like Chucky?


No thanks to Gruden. Gruden is the last coach I want to see in here.

Agreed, but he's at least better than McDaniels.


Denver doesnt need a new HC imo. Denver needs defensive players, mainly defensive linemen.

You think McD and this front office can bring in the right defensive players? Don't lie.


Next to that, I think our roster is pretty decent.

Decent isn't good enough in the NFL, and 3-7 is below decent.


Dont tell me Elvis Dumerville and Robert Ayers wouldnt have made a difference last night. While Im not giving Dawk an excuse, he would not have been hung out to dry last night. He missed tackles, and safety is an area of need as well.

Ayers hasn't even shown us what he can or can't do. Dumervil has shown he's a complete liability against the run. Dawkins has looked terrible this year.


Daniel Graham is past his prime. He simply does not offer enough of a threat in the passing game.

Agreed, and he wasn't even a threat in the passing game when he was in his prime.


I give credit to McDaniels for getting rid of Scheffler, Marshall, etc.

While many crucify him for it, why in the world would we keep them when they are 'me' players?

Every NFL player is a "me" player. Name me one player that would play for no money. Getting rid of talented players makes no sense unless they pull something like what Vince Young did (and that wasn't one time, he's acted like that ever since college). McDaniels doesn't get along well with players. That's one of his many weaknesses, it's not the players' faults.

To add to this, please explain to me in detail what Tony Scheffler did to deserve being traded for a 5th round pick.


We could have used Scheffler this year when it comes to ability. What we couldnt and didnt use, is his attitude. If Scheffler were in this lockeroom, he would be mailing it in, and dragging his bad attitude throughout the lockeroom. No thanks.

Please provide specific examples showing Scheffler has a bad attitude and brings down the locker room.


One thing clear is this: Every outsider who has spoken to the players, has said that they are surprised at how confident they are each week. These guys have not quit. They believe in this coach. All you hear is how well they feel they are prepared each week.

Being confident and believing doesn't mean shit unless you win.


Some will say, a smart headcoach would have been able to deal with a personality like Cutler, Schefflers or Marshalls, and that they could get them to play for them. My thought is, why the hell should that be a headcoaches job to motivate you? And if you are the type of guy who is going to decide he doesnt want to be here because of the headcoach, adios.

It doesn't even take a smart head coach. It just takes a head coach. McD has shown he isn't qualified to be one.


Baby sitter is one job a HC should not have to concern himself with. While some HCs flourish in that area, Im glad we are smart enough to bring in self motivated players.

Those self motivated players are 3-7.


Hes made mistakes, true. But I dont blame him for Cutler/Marshall/Scheff, etc. Seems to me there are a whole lotta players willing to play up here.

There's a whole lot of scrubs that would play for any NFL team. You need talent to win.


If we do draft high, we are in a great draft for that. Lots of QB needs with losts of QBs available. Also, I must say I am not unhappy Miami is experiencing injury difficulty. I want that second rounder to be high as well.

You still have confidence in McD's drafting ability? Hilarious.

TXBRONC
11-23-2010, 03:22 PM
It all comes down to "What does Denver need?"

Was just watching PFTs rankings of whos jobs are most in jeopardy among NFL headcoaches.


I found it incredible that Florio didnt have Denver number one. Not because I think McD is worse off, I just know hes a Bronco hater.

Heres their ranks:

1. Jeff Fisher

2. Gary Kubiak

3. Mike Singletary

4. Jim Shwartz

5. Eric Mangini


Then he mentioned John Fox and Marvin Lewis.



I pretty much agree with this list. I think Fisher is number one cause I think he wants OUT of that mess. Does Bud Adams SERIOUSLY want to back Vince Young? Incredible.

All these coaches have had some success.

While I love Kubes, he hasnt gotten it done.
I think he can, but its not there for him in Texas.


As for McDaniels chances of being fired......it could happen.
I can also see it not happening.


I hear cries for Gruden......no thanks. Doesnt anyone remember that Gruden lost his lockeroom? Gruden who kept 51 QBs on a roster of 53? Gruden whos
idea of communicating was screaming like Chucky?


No thanks to Gruden. Gruden is the last coach I want to see in here.



But what does Denver need?

Denver doesnt need a new HC imo. Denver needs defensive players, mainly defensive linemen.

Next to that, I think our roster is pretty decent.

Dont tell me Elvis Dumerville and Robert Ayers wouldnt have made a difference last night. While Im not giving Dawk an excuse, he would not have been hung out to dry last night. He missed tackles, and safety is an area of need as well.

Daniel Graham is past his prime. He simply does not offer enough of a threat in the passing game.

I give credit to McDaniels for getting rid of Scheffler, Marshall, etc.

While many crucify him for it, why in the world would we keep them when they are 'me' players?

We could have used Scheffler this year when it comes to ability. What we couldnt and didnt use, is his attitude. If Scheffler were in this lockeroom, he would be mailing it in, and dragging his bad attitude throughout the lockeroom. No thanks.

One thing clear is this: Every outsider who has spoken to the players, has said that they are surprised at how confident they are each week. These guys have not quit. They believe in this coach. All you hear is how well they feel they are prepared each week.

Some will say, a smart headcoach would have been able to deal with a personality like Cutler, Schefflers or Marshalls, and that they could get them to play for them. My thought is, why the hell should that be a headcoaches job to motivate you? And if you are the type of guy who is going to decide he doesnt want to be here because of the headcoach, adios.

Baby sitter is one job a HC should not have to concern himself with. While some HCs flourish in that area, Im glad we are smart enough to bring in self motivated players.

I believe in McD.

Hes made mistakes, true. But I dont blame him for Cutler/Marshall/Scheff, etc. Seems to me there are a whole lotta players willing to play up here.


Think with better defensive talent, our team will go where it belongs: at the top.

If we do draft high, we are in a great draft for that. Lots of QB needs with losts of QBs available. Also, I must say I am not unhappy Miami is experiencing injury difficulty. I want that second rounder to be high as well.


Still faithful, and always will be: BRONCOS!


:salute::salute::salute:

Every team has injuries to deal with so while having Dumervil and Ayers on the field would help bolster the defense some we still have plenty of other areas on that defense that need attention most especially the defensive line and the secondary.

At 3-7 it's a hard sell to say that these players are playing hard for their coach or that they are self motivated.

The really good coaches know how to manage egos. Like it or not it's apart of the game.

Superchop 7
11-23-2010, 03:54 PM
And what kills me.....

We had one of the deepest drafts for linebacker in years.......the Broncos completely whiffed. (09)

GEM
11-23-2010, 03:57 PM
RIWqLVQWrfI&

http://www.boncherry.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/tim-tebow.jpg

:lol: :D

Northman
11-23-2010, 03:58 PM
Why did you have to gay up the thread Gem.

GEM
11-23-2010, 04:02 PM
Why did you have to gay up the thread Gem.

Awww it was funny!!! :D I giggled. :P

Broncos Mtnman
11-23-2010, 04:03 PM
Without any shadow of a doubt.....first and foremost is a front office.



Personally, I think the ultimate answer is Dennison as head coach.

For the following reasons.

1) It wouldn't break the bank to get him......we could afford to get rid of the other contracts.

2) Zone blocking scheme......YOU CAN'T WIN WITHOUT BALANCE FROM THE RUN GAME.

3) Excellent offensive mind......Houstons problem IS NOT their offense.

4) Former defensive player.....This is where his heart is and would be his personal priority.

5) Mensa smart........his IQ is VERY high.

6) Organization.......he understands the organization and community.

7) Players coach......A look you dead in the eye and tell you straight personality.

Not a bad list, but it leaves out the biggest problem we currently have.

JOE ELLIS!!

He's the one that arranged to fire Shanny. He's the one who dumped the Goodmans. He's the one who hand-selected the Mickey Mouse club.

Ellis has too much power. Get rid of him first, then do the rest.

SOCALORADO.
11-23-2010, 04:06 PM
RIWqLVQWrfI&

http://www.boncherry.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/tim-tebow.jpg

:lol: :D

http://www.fairfaxunderground.com/forum/file.php?40,file=9531,filename=Gay_Thread_congrats .jpg

RebelRocker
11-23-2010, 04:28 PM
I wish we could fire Ellis, but I don't see Bowlen doing that. With that said, this is what we need to do.

1.Get a new GM or somebody with a proven personnel record to work with Xanders(if he doesn't get fired).

2.Fire McDaniels or give him the ultimatum of upgrading the staff(if he doesn't agree to do that, then force him to resign)

3.Hire a RESPECTED HC, with previous success, that knows how to build an elite team.

4.Bring in a legit DC to stablize the defense for more than ONE year.

5.Get rid of some veterans that have past their prime or do not fit what the new regime would want.
Trade Orton for a 2nd and a 5th
Trade Lloyd for a 3rd and a 5th(I know he's having a breakout year, but I think he's a product of a system. Get as much value for him while you can.)
Dawkins retires
Champ walks in FA
etc etc etc

6. Have a DEFENSE HEAVY DRAFT, specifically at the DT/NT and safety positions.

That may be a good start.

:defense:

BroncoStud
11-23-2010, 04:33 PM
How in the heck is Mangini in jeopardy? The Browns are having a GREAT season with Colt McCoy starting at QB because all of their veterans have been hurt...

I think Mangini should be up for coach of the year, the Browns have beaten some good teams and just lost on the last play to the J-E-T-S.

SOCALORADO.
11-23-2010, 04:53 PM
How in the heck is Mangini in jeopardy? The Browns are having a GREAT season with Colt McCoy starting at QB because all of their veterans have been hurt...

I think Mangini should be up for coach of the year, the Browns have beaten some good teams and just lost on the last play to the J-E-T-S.

And Holmgren stole this guy from DEN!
Yeah, i dont follow that one at all.

http://assets.nydailynews.com/img/2010/11/08/alg_browns_hillis.jpg

robert ethan
11-23-2010, 04:54 PM
1. Josh McDaniels job is in jeopardy.
2. Kyle Orton will give way to Tim Tebow soon.

Unless Kyle gets hurt (very possible), or Josh murders someone (extremely unlikely).

BORDERLINE
11-23-2010, 05:17 PM
if McD stays on this is what we need....

QB: Next season should be Tebow time, (Trade Orton get a 2nd round pick) Keep Quinn as a backup.

RB: Draft a Physical Running Back(3rd, 4th round), a Bulldozer to get the much needed 3rd down convertions.

WR: We are pretty good at the wideout position. Lloys should still produce in this system. Royal needs more touches with longer routes to use his speed better. And D.T should be coming into form by next year. Gaffney might be gone.

O-Line: We need a couple of these guys. Maybe a 2nd round pick should go to the Line.
Our young O-Line can only get better.

TE: Graham is gone. This guy is the offensive version of B.Dawk minus the energy. We Need to draft a Top tier T.E (NO Quinn Please) who's out there in FA???

Defense

CB: I still feel good about Champ out there. P.Cox should improve. Goodman is still good. Maybe add a veteran to the mix.

Safety's: Dawk is gone....Hill is still able to give us sturdy play. McBath and bruton need to step it up BIG TIME. Picking up a young safety in FA and maybe in the draft taking a look at one in the 4th round.

LB: Altough i'm Ok wiht our linebacker play I still would go and find one in FA. Dumerville is back Ayers will be at full force, I still like D.J . One of he guys playing now have to step up there play and prove there worth.

D-Line: Jason Williams should be relegated to back up duty. Find a Nosetackle that can actually eat up space. I like Vickerson but the rest of the guys need a real chin check. Bannan is nothing more than a back-up. We Need our 1st round pick to go to a D-Linemen. And maybe even a second. Our troubles are always with this Line. We Need to revamp this line via the draft becouse free agency isn't working

The draft is where we get better ending the season at 4-12 is not exceptable.
We need to get young and get good. plain and simple

RebelRocker
11-23-2010, 05:31 PM
if McD stays on this is what we need....

QB: Next season should be Tebow time, (Trade Orton get a 2nd round pick) Keep Quinn as a backup.

RB: Draft a Physical Running Back(3rd, 4th round), a Bulldozer to get the much needed 3rd down convertions.

WR: We are pretty good at the wideout position. Lloys should still produce in this system. Royal needs more touches with longer routes to use his speed better. And D.T should be coming into form by next year. Gaffney might be gone.

O-Line: We need a couple of these guys. Maybe a 2nd round pick should go to the Line.
Our young O-Line can only get better.

TE: Graham is gone. This guy is the offensive version of B.Dawk minus the energy. We Need to draft a Top tier T.E (NO Quinn Please) who's out there in FA???

Defense

CB: I still feel good about Champ out there. P.Cox should improve. Goodman is still good. Maybe add a veteran to the mix.

Safety's: Dawk is gone....Hill is still able to give us sturdy play. McBath and bruton need to step it up BIG TIME. Picking up a young safety in FA and maybe in the draft taking a look at one in the 4th round.

LB: Altough i'm Ok wiht our linebacker play I still would go and find one in FA. Dumerville is back Ayers will be at full force, I still like D.J . One of he guys playing now have to step up there play and prove there worth.

D-Line: Jason Williams should be relegated to back up duty. Find a Nosetackle that can actually eat up space. I like Vickerson but the rest of the guys need a real chin check. Bannan is nothing more than a back-up. We Need our 1st round pick to go to a D-Linemen. And maybe even a second. Our troubles are always with this Line. We Need to revamp this line via the draft becouse free agency isn't working

The draft is where we get better ending the season at 4-12 is not exceptable.
We need to get young and get good. plain and simple


I agree with you. BUT........ I think we'd all like to just start over with a new coach.

:beer:

Northman
11-23-2010, 05:42 PM
1. Josh McDaniels job is in jeopardy.


Dont know if they are myths but certainly hopeful about.

Tned
11-23-2010, 06:01 PM
Um...

So our less-selfish, self-motivated players have 5 wins in their last 20 games, but you think the talent levels and current coaching staff are fine? :huh:


G good post, and I think you made some great points as always. I'm quoting one portion to address one of my pet peeves in regards to the personnel changes of the last 18 months.

When it came to Cutler, Marshall, Scheffler and even the rationale for not picking someone like Dez Bryant (I'm high on DT, but still), it was all about how character, team first, and such was THE most important thing. Put 53 Boy Scouts on the same team and the sky is the limit.

I have said multiple times, and I still feel, that talent and production HAS to be the number one issue. It's the coaches job to deal with prima donnas --- young, immature mutli-millionaires, not to ditch the challenging cases.

In the end, were the personnel moves right? Would we be just as bad off if we had built on the '08 offense, rather than ripping it apart and starting over? We will never know, but we do now know that the route that was taken has been far from painless.

topscribe
11-23-2010, 06:15 PM
Awww it was funny!!! :D I giggled. :P

It should have been funny. It wasn't much for singing.

But that guy can sure open his mouth wide. I think he was going for a kiss,
but for a while it looked as if he wanted to swallow her face. I thought it
hilarious, too, in one place where they touched tongues, and in the next
scene was another guy wincing . . . :lol:

(Actually, I couldn't bear to watch the whole thing. I just pulled the bar
ahead and stopped a couple places for an instant.)

-----

WARHORSE
11-23-2010, 06:25 PM
No offense War, but players claimed they wanted to play for Shanahan, Slowik, etc. Players say a lot of things but if they arent producing it rings pretty hollow. At the end of the day its just about executing and getting it done both on the field and in the coaching ranks.

I dont disagree. But when I hear a guy like Champ Bailey saying McD prepares him like no other, I listen.


But Gruden, Cowher, Shanahan, and Belichick themselves couldnt win with whats on the roster right now. Anyone who says different is deluded imo.


All Im stating is my opinion. I dont believe the firing the coach is whats gonna help us win.

There are tons of examples of this, but I'll use Jimmy Johnson as an example.

The Cowboys were 3-13 in 1988
Jimmy Johnson came in 1989. He went 1-15. Then 7-9. Then 11-5. Then 13-3 and on to his first SB.

Switzer comes in, and wins a superbowl in his first year. From there it went downhill. So who is the catalyst for failure/success?


It all goes hand in hand. You need great coaching, great players, and great organizations.

Parcells comes in and goes from 10-6, to 6-10, to 9-7 and 9-7 again.

Phillips comes in and goes 13-3 in his first year. Does ANYONE in their right mind think Phillips is a better coach than Parcells?


I dont.


I know Im among the minority here, but it is what it is.

I dont believe the problem is our coach.

Jaws
11-23-2010, 06:29 PM
What Does Denver Need?

In no particular order:

A good chomp from top to bottom.
Kick up the backside.
Miracle.

BroncoNut
11-23-2010, 06:29 PM
I dont disagree. But when I hear a guy like Champ Bailey saying McD prepares him like no other, I listen.


But Gruden, Cowher, Shanahan, and Belichick themselves couldnt win with whats on the roster right now. Anyone who says different is deluded imo.


All Im stating is my opinion. I dont believe the firing the coach is whats gonna help us win.

There are tons of examples of this, but I'll use Jimmy Johnson as an example.

The Cowboys were 3-13 in 1988
Jimmy Johnson came in 1989. He went 1-15. Then 7-9. Then 11-5. Then 13-3 and on to his first SB.

Switzer comes in, and wins a superbowl in his first year. From there it went downhill. So who is the catalyst for failure/success?


It all goes hand in hand. You need great coaching, great players, and great organizations.

Parcells comes in and goes from 10-6, to 6-10, to 9-7 and 9-7 again.

Phillips comes in and goes 13-3 in his first year. Does ANYONE in their right mind think Phillips is a better coach than Parcells?


I dont.


I know Im among the minority here, but it is what it is.

I dont believe the problem is our coach.

then where is it might I ask?

topscribe
11-23-2010, 06:30 PM
I dont disagree. But when I hear a guy like Champ Bailey saying McD prepares him like no other, I listen.


But Gruden, Cowher, Shanahan, and Belichick themselves couldnt win with whats on the roster right now. Anyone who says different is deluded imo.


All Im stating is my opinion. I dont believe the firing the coach is whats gonna help us win.

There are tons of examples of this, but I'll use Jimmy Johnson as an example.

The Cowboys were 3-13 in 1988
Jimmy Johnson came in 1989. He went 1-15. Then 7-9. Then 11-5. Then 13-3 and on to his first SB.

Switzer comes in, and wins a superbowl in his first year. From there it went downhill. So who is the catalyst for failure/success?


It all goes hand in hand. You need great coaching, great players, and great organizations.

Parcells comes in and goes from 10-6, to 6-10, to 9-7 and 9-7 again.

Phillips comes in and goes 13-3 in his first year. Does ANYONE in their right mind think Phillips is a better coach than Parcells?


I dont.


I know Im among the minority here, but it is what it is.

I dont believe the problem is our coach.

I don't believe the problem is McDaniels the coach. I do believe the
Broncos have a problem with McDaniels the (de facto) GM. Either that, or
the other kiddie they have in there who is playing GM.

I believe Mtnman may be right about Ellis. What the Broncos really need,
IMO, is a strong, knowledgeable GM with an established reputation, and
then limiting McDaniels' powers to that of coaching. (He has to have a say
in personnel, true, but not the final say.) But the prerequisite to that just
might be the jettisoning of Ellis. Which probably isn't going to happen . . .

-----

cuzz4169
11-23-2010, 06:37 PM
5.Get rid of some veterans that have past their prime or do not fit what the new regime would want.
Trade Orton for a 2nd and a 5th
Trade Lloyd for a 3rd and a 5th(I know he's having a breakout year, but I think he's a product of a system. Get as much value for him while you can.)

Trade Orton for a 2nd and 5th!!!!! hahahaha who are you trading with the broncos...c'mon be for real...Denver will not get more than a 4th for a game manager you don't think GMs know what type of player he is....he will be fighting for a job no matter where he goes.

And why would you trade Lloyd we will not find a cheaper 1000yd WR. HE'S CHEAP!! to trade him for any picks unless its a first or second it has no value for what hes paid.

dogfish
11-23-2010, 06:43 PM
at this point, how many of you besides bosco and gronkowski still trust mcdaniels with a top five-top ten pick, plus two seconds and a high third?

:noidea:

WARHORSE
11-23-2010, 06:48 PM
Agreed, but he's at least better than McDaniels.

Opinion of course.


You think McD and this front office can bring in the right defensive players? Don't lie.

I dont care if you bring in Ozzie Newsome and the Lapelles.........the draft is a crapshoot. I use Newsome because most would say he has the best draft record. Some would say Belichick. Belichick has stunk up some drafts recently, and so has Newsome.

Decent isn't good enough in the NFL, and 3-7 is below decent.

No one is satisfied with 3-7. That includes McD and the entire organization. But success for an NFL team will be determined on a huge amount of variables coming together.

Ayers hasn't even shown us what he can or can't do. Dumervil has shown he's a complete liability against the run. Dawkins has looked terrible this year.

Ayers was bringing the most pressure of all our defensive players prior to his injury. Having Dumerville and Ayers on the field last night would have allowed us to pressure Rivers without sending the house. Its football 101. And Dumerville was a situational player last year. ............that had 17 sacks. And yes, Dawkins cost us two TDs last night by himself. But he was asked to do something they knew he couldnt do. Obviously, they would have hoped the rush got to Rivers before Rivers got to Dawk and Sproles.




Agreed, and he wasn't even a threat in the passing game when he was in his prime.



Every NFL player is a "me" player. Name me one player that would play for no money. Getting rid of talented players makes no sense unless they pull something like what Vince Young did (and that wasn't one time, he's acted like that ever since college). McDaniels doesn't get along well with players. That's one of his many weaknesses, it's not the players' faults.


Players that are willing to take less money are not ME players. See: John Elway. Of course we all understand our own needs and everyone tends to them, but the ME players could care less about others around them. Thats a difference. Seems to me like McD gets along fine with players that listen. Those that have their own agendas, are shown the door. I have absolutely no problem with that.


To add to this, please explain to me in detail what Tony Scheffler did to deserve being traded for a 5th round pick.

Lets see.....that was the most anyone would give, and Scheffler wanted out. Goodbye and good riddance.

Please provide specific examples showing Scheffler has a bad attitude and brings down the locker room.

Seriously??? I thought you followed the Broncos.

Being confident and believing doesn't mean shit unless you win.



Yup, and thats what 31 NFL franchises will be coming to terms with this offseason. You can stop with the language btw.




It doesn't even take a smart head coach. It just takes a head coach. McD has shown he isn't qualified to be one.

Name those that have and you'll be ridiculed.

Those self motivated players are 3-7.

Well just imagine them being 3-7 and needing our coach to motivate them, huh? Pay me and motivate me too. Yeah right. Only in this generation. Old school? Hit the door clown.

There's a whole lot of scrubs that would play for any NFL team. You need talent to win.

Agreed.

You still have confidence in McD's drafting ability? Hilarious.

Just remember this: Your ability as a head coach to address you personel is narrowed by the variables that are presented to you in each offseason.

It was true in every draft and offseason to date, and it will be true next year and every year to come.

I dont have any problem to date with his drafts. Not sayin it wont happen, but just where its at .........for me.

I know you disagree along with a ton of others. Im fine with that.

Wont be the first time I stand alone.:salute:

dogme45
11-23-2010, 06:52 PM
Every team that is 3-7 has been fired, what is bowin waiting for?

topscribe
11-23-2010, 06:56 PM
Trade Orton for a 2nd and 5th!!!!! hahahaha who are you trading with the broncos...c'mon be for real...Denver will not get more than a 4th for a game manager you don't think GMs know what type of player he is....he will be fighting for a job no matter where he goes.

And why would you trade Lloyd we will not find a cheaper 1000yd WR. HE'S CHEAP!! to trade him for any picks unless its a first or second it has no value for what hes paid.

Quarterback is the last position where you want to jettison a very good
player in lieu of an inexperienced, untried one. Orton isn't going anywhere if
there is an I.Q. in Dove Valley that exceeds the largest shoe size, IMO . . .

-----

jhildebrand
11-23-2010, 07:41 PM
I get tired of the injury card being used as if it is a legitimate reason for going 5-15 in 20.

McD knew coming here the D needed to be the focus. He chose to rebuild the O, which is his perogitive. However, in choosing to rebuild the O he devoted far too many resources to do it. Let's just take a quick look-

Tebow-4 picks used for a player who is a project and not ready by even the most ardent Tebow/McD supporters. A 1, 2, 3, and 4 for a project player who isn't ready? :confused: That alone should have anybody steaming :mad:

Richard Quinn-What was it 3 picks? Obviously it was too much for a player who doesn't even see the field anymore!

Moreno-#12 overall. Looking better but hard to argue this team was a #12 RB overall away from making the playoffs. Even less worthy when considering we had Hillis and KNEW what he was capable of and their were better backs to be had later in the draft.

Brady Quinn-Sent Hillis and picks to Cleveland for a QB who looks to be garbage.

Maroney-bye bye 4th rounder

Olsen and Schlueter-WASTED PICKS

Tommy Brandstater-traded up to get him only to cut him a year later for a bad Quinn.

There's enough picks there to field an entire D! No wonder this team is not only devoid of talent and depth on the defense.

Don't get me wrong, Shanahan has blame for the current state of this team's D and depth but McDaniels should have seen the lesson on HOW NOT TO BUILD A D yet he seemed to copy it to a T: build in FA.

Now this team has to truly rebuild and unfortunately it doesn't have the picks to do it!

SmilinAssasSin27
11-23-2010, 07:43 PM
Marty Schottenheimer

Tned
11-23-2010, 07:45 PM
Tebow-4 picks used for a player who is a project and not ready by even the most ardent Tebow/McD supporters. A 1, 2, 3, and 4 for a project player who isn't ready? :confused: That alone should have anybody steaming :mad:


He traded back, stockpiling picks for the SOLE purpose of using those picks to get Tebow. You can't pull the "he used four picks" argument, when those picks were only there because he traded back to get Tebow and DT.

I haven't been a fan of all of McDaniels' moves, but those that go this route are twisting facts.

SmilinAssasSin27
11-23-2010, 07:46 PM
I get tired of the injury card being used as if it is a legitimate reason for going 5-15 in 20.

McD knew coming here the D needed to be the focus. He chose to rebuild the O, which is his perogitive. However, in choosing to rebuild the O he devoted far too many resources to do it. Let's just take a quick look-

Tebow-4 picks used for a player who is a project and not ready by even the most ardent Tebow/McD supporters. A 1, 2, 3, and 4 for a project player who isn't ready? :confused: That alone should have anybody steaming :mad:

Richard Quinn-What was it 3 picks? Obviously it was too much for a player who doesn't even see the field anymore!

Moreno-#12 overall. Looking better but hard to argue this team was a #12 RB overall away from making the playoffs. Even less worthy when considering we had Hillis and KNEW what he was capable of and their were better backs to be had later in the draft.

Brady Quinn-Sent Hillis and picks to Cleveland for a QB who looks to be garbage.

Maroney-bye bye 4th rounder

Olsen and Schlueter-WASTED PICKS

Tommy Brandstater-traded up to get him only to cut him a year later for a bad Quinn.

There's enough picks there to field an entire D! No wonder this team is not only devoid of talent and depth on the defense.

Don't get me wrong, Shanahan has blame for the current state of this team's D and depth but McDaniels should have seen the lesson on HOW NOT TO BUILD A D yet he seemed to copy it to a T: build in FA.

Now this team has to truly rebuild and unfortunately it doesn't have the picks to do it!

Agree w/ some, but notg w/ the following:

McD traded for the picks which he used to get Tebow. He hardly gave away a draft.

Although I'm not a big Quinn fan, we dealt a fumbling FB who may be on roids. At the time, the trade wasn't bad.

RebelRocker
11-23-2010, 07:48 PM
Trade Orton for a 2nd and 5th!!!!! hahahaha who are you trading with the broncos...c'mon be for real...Denver will not get more than a 4th for a game manager you don't think GMs know what type of player he is....he will be fighting for a job no matter where he goes.

And why would you trade Lloyd we will not find a cheaper 1000yd WR. HE'S CHEAP!! to trade him for any picks unless its a first or second it has no value for what hes paid.

Orton's putting up Pro Bowl numbers in a complex offense. He could get us a 2nd round pick.


As for Lloyd, if he's such a good receiver, then why hasn't he been tearing up the league since he was a rookie? He's a PRODUCT OF THE SYSTEM!!

Oh, and if you haven't already forgotten, we have TWO receivers waiting to get their opportunity to be starters in Thomas and Decker to go along with Royal(who needs to be go to receiver, in my opinion)

So you're saying we should just keep those two on the bench and possibly waste two picks because ONE guy is having a career season that he will never repeat?

Tned
11-23-2010, 07:51 PM
Agree w/ some, but notg w/ the following:

McD traded for the picks which he used to get Tebow. He hardly gave away a draft.

Although I'm not a big Quinn fan, we dealt a fumbling FB who may be on roids. At the time, the trade wasn't bad.

Fumbling FB? :laugh: Yea, that's one way to sugar coat a massive ****up with bullshit. :laugh:

BroncoStud
11-23-2010, 07:55 PM
Quarterback is the last position where you want to jettison a very good
player in lieu of an inexperienced, untried one. Orton isn't going anywhere if
there is an I.Q. in Dove Valley that exceeds the largest shoe size, IMO . . .

-----

That would be true if we had a "very good player" at QB, but we don't, we have Kyle Orton who just got his ass handed to him on primetime MNF by a "very good player" in Phillip Rivers.

Orton showed about as much heart as a corpse in that game and only reaffirmed why he is not a longterm solution. I know you will blindly defend him until he's retired but if Denver can get a 4th rounder for Orton they had better jump all over it.

He will hold this franchise back for a long time just like he did the Bears.

topscribe
11-23-2010, 08:20 PM
That would be true if we had a "very good player" at QB, but we don't, we have Kyle Orton who just got his ass handed to him on primetime MNF by a "very good player" in Phillip Rivers.

Orton showed about as much heart as a corpse in that game and only reaffirmed why he is not a longterm solution. I know you will blindly defend him until he's retired but if Denver can get a 4th rounder for Orton they had better jump all over it.

He will hold this franchise back for a long time just like he did the Bears.

You just cannot keep from being personal, can you? Is that your usual M.O.?
I really haven't paid attention: I usually read the posts by more established
posters who have proven themselves knowledgeable. Guess that means I'll
stop reading yours just as fast as I started . . .

-----

BroncoStud
11-23-2010, 08:34 PM
You just cannot keep from being personal, can you? Is that your usual M.O.?
I really haven't paid attention: I usually read the posts by more established
posters who have proven themselves knowledgeable. Guess that means I'll
stop reading yours just as fast as I started . . .

-----

Man that hurts... I don't make personal posts but I call it like it is and if you're wrong, you're wrong, I'm sorry if that bothers you, I'm not trying to do that. I'm wrong about a lot of things, each and every day, but not about Orton or this offense. So if you want to ignore me that is your right but I will gladly take that as an admission that you know I'm right and have no rebuttal.

:beer:

topscribe
11-23-2010, 08:40 PM
Man that hurts... I don't make personal posts but I call it like it is and if you're wrong, you're wrong, I'm sorry if that bothers you, I'm not trying to do that. I'm wrong about a lot of things, each and every day, but not about Orton or this offense. So if you want to ignore me that is your right but I will gladly take that as an admission that you know I'm right and have no rebuttal.

:beer:

Take it how you want. It makes no difference to me.

Carry on, and have a nice day . . .

-----

BroncoStud
11-23-2010, 08:47 PM
Take it how you want. It makes no difference to me.

Carry on, and have a nice day . . .

-----

Same to you...

atwater27
11-23-2010, 08:51 PM
We need a defensive line. Plain and simple. We haven't had a decent defensive line since we won a couple of Super Bowls. Shanahan shares a ton of the blame. Josh hasn't made things any better, ESPECIALLY in the draft when it comes to our defensive line. If I was coach/GM of a football team, asides from a QB, defensive lineman would be my tippity tip top priority. If you have 4 good lineman, your whole defense looks good. You got a crappy line, even the skilled DB's and linebackers get smoked.

TXBRONC
11-23-2010, 09:14 PM
I dont disagree. But when I hear a guy like Champ Bailey saying McD prepares him like no other, I listen.


But Gruden, Cowher, Shanahan, and Belichick themselves couldnt win with whats on the roster right now. Anyone who says different is deluded imo.


All Im stating is my opinion. I dont believe the firing the coach is whats gonna help us win.

There are tons of examples of this, but I'll use Jimmy Johnson as an example.

The Cowboys were 3-13 in 1988
Jimmy Johnson came in 1989. He went 1-15. Then 7-9. Then 11-5. Then 13-3 and on to his first SB.

Switzer comes in, and wins a superbowl in his first year. From there it went downhill. So who is the catalyst for failure/success?


It all goes hand in hand. You need great coaching, great players, and great organizations.

Parcells comes in and goes from 10-6, to 6-10, to 9-7 and 9-7 again.

Phillips comes in and goes 13-3 in his first year. Does ANYONE in their right mind think Phillips is a better coach than Parcells?


I dont.


I know Im among the minority here, but it is what it is.

I dont believe the problem is our coach.

First of all Champ has never spoken an ill word against any coach that he has had in Denver. He'll always been complimentary.

Second if McDaniels can't win with this roster that is completely on him. Maybe Gruden, Shanahan, and Cowher couldn't win with what is on this roster but they're not kind of coaches who would try and reinvent the wheel especially Shanahan.

I really mean no offense War but I don't think Jimmy Johnson is a good comparison. Johnson improved by leaps and bounds from his first year to his second year a plus 6 in the column and kept improving over the next couple of years. McDaniels is going in the opposite direction.

Switzer and Phillips both inherited teams that were built by other coaches so all they really had to do is stay out of the way.

SmilinAssasSin27
11-23-2010, 10:48 PM
Fumbling FB? :laugh: Yea, that's one way to sugar coat a massive ****up with bullshit. :laugh:

how soon we forget his kickoff return fumbles giving the opposition the ball in the redzone...

I Eat Staples
11-23-2010, 11:02 PM
Orton isn't going anywhere if
there is an I.Q. in Dove Valley that exceeds the largest shoe size, IMO . . .

-----

That's a really big if. I wouldn't bet on McD's IQ being higher than Jamal Williams' shoe size.

Tned
11-23-2010, 11:13 PM
how soon we forget his kickoff return fumbles giving the opposition the ball in the redzone...

Is that an accidental or intentional misstatement? Kickoff fumble -- singular. I suppose you are also calling for Cox to be traded? Moreno?

Whatever, standard 'ole revisionist crap to defend not playing him when the Broncos needed a healthy back last year, and to make an excuse for what no looks like a horrible trade and has many in the media comparing it to the worst trades in Denver history.

topscribe
11-23-2010, 11:33 PM
That's a really big if. I wouldn't bet on McD's IQ being higher than Jamal Williams' shoe size.

If I were to hazard a wild guess, I would guess you're not especially a McDaniels groupie . . . :D

-----

ChampWJ
11-24-2010, 12:04 AM
I think McDaniels sold Bowlen/Ellis a several year plan of his prototype roster he would like to build and will be afforded enough time to do so. I believe he has convictions about players that fit his scheme and admire his aggresiveness so far in acquiring "his" guys.

If all we want is a playoff team, then by all means, criticize his teardown of a competent offense and ignoring a deficient defense. Even if his initial plan was to address defense, he discovered he didn't think he could win a Super Bowl with the pieces/attitudes on offense and I do not fault him for addressing that side first. I believe the complexity of his offense means it takes longer to develop that side of the ball.

Like others have said, the draft is a crapshoot, and I think McDaniels (despite limited experience) has hit on more picks than not. If Moreno, Tebow, Thomas, Beadles, Walton, Decker develop into mainstays over the next couple years that would be an impressive core in the trenches and at the skill positions to then add pieces to via mid-late rounders or free agency. His 4-5 year plan undoubtedly has check marks next to numerous key positions on the offensive side of the ball, thus allowing him another draft or two to build a defense.

Assuming McDaniels is given enough time and his blueprint actually works (debatable), we are not going to care in which order he acquired talent. As far as getting rid of talented players, look at his example. Ty Law, Lawyer Milloy, Deion Branch, Drew Bledsoe, Willie McGinest, etc. All talented players New England continued to have success without.

Emotionally, would I like more results on the field? Of course, and I fully understand the calls for a coaching change based on that. Rationally, I don't think McDaniels has had enough time to build his roster and it would be short-changing the plan he was hired to fulfill and setting the franchise back further to start ANOTHER rebuilding process from square one.

That is why I don't see changes being made in the structure of the front office or the head coach at this time. If we're still sitting here next year with no improvement especially on defense, then.............

cuzz4169
11-24-2010, 12:13 AM
Orton's putting up Pro Bowl numbers in a complex offense. He could get us a 2nd round pick.


As for Lloyd, if he's such a good receiver, then why hasn't he been tearing up the league since he was a rookie? He's a PRODUCT OF THE SYSTEM!!

Oh, and if you haven't already forgotten, we have TWO receivers waiting to get their opportunity to be starters in Thomas and Decker to go along with Royal(who needs to be go to receiver, in my opinion)

So you're saying we should just keep those two on the bench and possibly waste two picks because ONE guy is having a career season that he will never repeat?

You are blind if you think Denver would ever get a 2nd round pick for Orton...Talk about "PRODUCT OF THE SYSTEM" Ortons #s are so inflated its a joke. It's funny that people really think he is that good. The guy is nothing more than a fill in QB till you find a #1...

How is a WR a "PRODUCT OF THE SYSTEM?" Does the system help him make those nasty catches? That's the lamest thing I've ever heard. I cant answer why Lloyd all of the sudden decided to play this year. Took Cris Carter 7 seasons to get it going...4 years for wes welker....5 seasons for Derrick Mason...& 8 for Ed McCaffrey but those guys are all "PRODUCTS OF THE SYSTEM" as you say. No I didn't forget we have 2 ROOKIES on the bench... who both probably make more money than Lloyd...seems like one cant stay healthy, who "COULD" be a play maker and the other who knows he cant get on the field...I know one rookie in Dallas looks pretty good as a WR......Most of you think trades are made bc stats look good that's not how it works sorry...

RebelRocker
11-24-2010, 12:19 AM
You are blind if you think Denver would ever get a 2nd round pick for Orton...Talk about "PRODUCT OF THE SYSTEM" Ortons #s are so inflated its a joke. It's funny that people really think he is that good. The guy is nothing more than a fill in QB till you find a #1...

How is a WR a "PRODUCT OF THE SYSTEM?" Does the system help him make those nasty catches? That's the lamest thing I've ever heard. I cant answer why Lloyd all of the sudden decided to play this year. Took Cris Carter 7 seasons to get it going...4 years for wes welker....5 seasons for Derrick Mason...& 8 for Ed McCaffrey but those guys are all "PRODUCTS OF THE SYSTEM" as you say. No I didn't forget we have 2 ROOKIES on the bench... who both probably make more money than Lloyd...seems like one cant stay healthy, who "COULD" be a play maker and the other who knows he cant get on the field...I know one rookie in Dallas looks pretty good as a WR......Most of you think trades are made bc stats look good that's not how it works sorry...



Anybody could be a product of a system!!! Lloyd has had a reputation his entire career for making great catches, but being terribly inconsistent. My point is, IF a new regime came in and looked at our roster, they may realize that the stats he and Orton put up together were mostly due to two things
1.Mostly padded stats in garbage time

and
2. products of a pass friendly system.

We have 3 young receivers that need to be developed and given an opportunity to do so. If you had the opportunity to get good value for both players to build on the greater good of this team, YOU WOULD DO IT!

Anybody could be shipped in that scenario.

Northman
11-24-2010, 01:31 AM
I dont disagree. But when I hear a guy like Champ Bailey saying McD prepares him like no other, I listen.

Unfortuantely ive heard Champ Bailey say that Slowik is a great DC. I think its more PC talk than anything.



But Gruden, Cowher, Shanahan, and Belichick themselves couldnt win with whats on the roster right now. Anyone who says different is deluded imo.

Maybe, maybe not. However, i dont think any of them (except for BB) would of dismantled the offense and totally tear down the team when they first come in either without seeing what they have first.


All Im stating is my opinion. I dont believe the firing the coach is whats gonna help us win.

There are tons of examples of this, but I'll use Jimmy Johnson as an example.

The Cowboys were 3-13 in 1988
Jimmy Johnson came in 1989. He went 1-15. Then 7-9. Then 11-5. Then 13-3 and on to his first SB.

Switzer comes in, and wins a superbowl in his first year. From there it went downhill. So who is the catalyst for failure/success?

Obviously JJ gets a lot of credit for winning 3 SB's. But he also had a HOF QB, RB, and WR. He also put together a fantastic defense. Switzer inherited that team but then was fired shortly thereafter if i remember correctly. The problem with your example is that Dallas was in shambles when JJ took over. Denver was nowhere near as bad (at least on the offensive side of the ball) as Dallas was at that time.



It all goes hand in hand. You need great coaching, great players, and great organizations.

Parcells comes in and goes from 10-6, to 6-10, to 9-7 and 9-7 again.

Phillips comes in and goes 13-3 in his first year. Does ANYONE in their right mind think Phillips is a better coach than Parcells?


I dont.


I know Im among the minority here, but it is what it is.

I dont believe the problem is our coach.


Is he the total problem? No. But everything that happens Bronco related begins and ends with him as he is the HC. He has the power that Bowlen game him just like Shanahan so if the team isnt performing or correcting the things that need to be corrected than someone has to shoulder the blame. If its not the coach than Bowlen made a mistake firing Shanahan because i see a lot of the same problems that we had under his tenure as well.

dogfish
11-24-2010, 02:06 AM
how soon we forget his kickoff return fumbles giving the opposition the ball in the redzone...

i blame whatever idiot thought it was a good idea to put a 250-pound bulldozer of a RB on kick return duty in the first place. . .

shank
11-24-2010, 02:12 AM
i blame whatever idiot thought it was a good idea to put a 250-pound bulldozer of a RB on kick return duty in the first place. . .

he was doing an admirable job before getting yanked... and droughns used to be a pretty good returner for us with a similar style.

Northman
11-24-2010, 03:03 AM
Hillis is not a returner and should of never been back there.

Magnificent Seven
11-24-2010, 04:09 AM
You know what? If I were him (Pat Bowlen), I'd hire Elway for the position of General Manager. I would keep McDaniels. Hire Gary Kubiak back as Broncos offensive coordinator and hire Mike Singletary as Broncos defensive coordinator. That would works.

WARHORSE
11-24-2010, 05:07 AM
then where is it might I ask?

Check the original post.

WARHORSE
11-24-2010, 05:37 AM
First of all Champ has never spoken an ill word against any coach that he has had in Denver. He'll always been complimentary.
I dont recall him saying much about Shanny the last few years. Besides. Staying politically correct is one thing. But you can do that without complimenting the coach.


Second if McDaniels can't win with this roster that is completely on him. Maybe Gruden, Shanahan, and Cowher couldn't win with what is on this roster but they're not kind of coaches who would try and reinvent the wheel especially Shanahan.
Ya lost me on this one. Reinvent the wheel? All Im saying is, the coach isnt the problem. So if someone knows a coach who can win with this roster, that would mean the coach is the problem."


I really mean no offense War but I don't think Jimmy Johnson is a good comparison. Johnson improved by leaps and bounds from his first year to his second year a plus 6 in the column and kept improving over the next couple of years. McDaniels is going in the opposite direction.

No offense taken. First, Johnson went backwards in his first year. Then dont forget the absolute HIJACKING of Minnesota in the Hershel Walker trade. No one can say that didnt help the man. There are tons of examples where new headcoaches teams go backwards before going forward.


Switzer and Phillips both inherited teams that were built by other coaches so all they really had to do is stay out of the way.


Thats my point.




Once again, I'll say I dont believe its our coach that needs changing.

WARHORSE
11-24-2010, 05:55 AM
Unfortuantely ive heard Champ Bailey say that Slowik is a great DC. I think its more PC talk than anything.

What he said about others is not what he said about McDaniels. He said if we cant win with the way McD prepares them, somethings wrong. There is being PC, and I heard what he said about Slowick. It could be the case in one and not the other, but Im convinced.


Maybe, maybe not. However, i dont think any of them (except for BB) would of dismantled the offense and totally tear down the team when they first come in either without seeing what they have first.

The supposed 'tear down' of the offense. We had NO runningback worth a dollar. He used his first pick to address that. Cutler was gone....that was NOT McDs call.....he was ordered to trade Cutler by Bowlen. Marshall? What has he done? Hamilton and Wiegman? What have they done other than suck their last year here? Scheffler??? This offense has better players now then it did when he took over. And Belichick cannot win with this roster.....sorry....thats my opinion.

Obviously JJ gets a lot of credit for winning 3 SB's. But he also had a HOF QB, RB, and WR. He also put together a fantastic defense. Switzer inherited that team but then was fired shortly thereafter if i remember correctly. The problem with your example is that Dallas was in shambles when JJ took over. Denver was nowhere near as bad (at least on the offensive side of the ball) as Dallas was at that time.

He won two, and yes thats true concerning the big three. He put together a fantastic defense with the help of raping the VIkings for Hershal Walker. JJ went BACK his first year. McD went 8-8. As for how bad the Broncos were when McD took over....anyone remember our special teams? The defense? The fluff offense who could turn in yards but not scores? This team was on the downside.





Is he the total problem? No. But everything that happens Bronco related begins and ends with him as he is the HC. He has the power that Bowlen game him just like Shanahan so if the team isnt performing or correcting the things that need to be corrected than someone has to shoulder the blame. If its not the coach than Bowlen made a mistake firing Shanahan because i see a lot of the same problems that we had under his tenure as well.

I believe if McD continues.....he WILL turn it around. Admit it....we're just spoiled. When has Denver ever really had to rebuild?

We need defensive line help badly. We will get Doom, Ayers back healthy, and address the Dline in the draft along with the rest of the defense.

I think we'll be better.:beer:

Just my opium.

Tned
11-24-2010, 07:00 AM
Hillis is not a returner and should of never been back there.

It's kind of like DT doing it now. Anyone watching can see it's a bad idea. it's a turnover/major injury waiting to happen, but on a team with few playmakers, he's putting one of his few playmakers in that role. Same thing he did with Hillis, even if it was a bad fit.


I think McDaniels sold Bowlen/Ellis a several year plan of his prototype roster he would like to build and will be afforded enough time to do so. I believe he has convictions about players that fit his scheme and admire his aggresiveness so far in acquiring "his" guys.

If all we want is a playoff team, then by all means, criticize his teardown of a competent offense and ignoring a deficient defense. Even if his initial plan was to address defense, he discovered he didn't think he could win a Super Bowl with the pieces/attitudes on offense and I do not fault him for addressing that side first. I believe the complexity of his offense means it takes longer to develop that side of the ball.

Like others have said, the draft is a crapshoot, and I think McDaniels (despite limited experience) has hit on more picks than not. If Moreno, Tebow, Thomas, Beadles, Walton, Decker develop into mainstays over the next couple years that would be an impressive core in the trenches and at the skill positions to then add pieces to via mid-late rounders or free agency. His 4-5 year plan undoubtedly has check marks next to numerous key positions on the offensive side of the ball, thus allowing him another draft or two to build a defense.


First, "just a playoff team" has become a bit of an overused concept. Once you get in, anything can happen. On the other hand, when you are battling for the number one pick in the following year's draft, then it is a certainty that "nothing" will happen in January.

In terms of hitting on "more picks than not", I'm not sure how you can say that. The only way to make that statement is to assume all the "potential" guys will turn out great.

Moreno's had one very good game as a pro. It took him a year and a half to have his first 100 yard game and last year was outplayed by Buck in most games. Ayers shows "promise", but is still a big question. Tebow? Many still doubt if he can be a starter, but regardless he has proven nothing to date. Could be great or could be Tim Crouch/Ryan Leaf. Beadles lost his starting job, and now has it again, Walton is being consistently pushed around (I hope both of those guys just need experience). Decker has done nothing to date, and Thomas has gotten LOTs of praise, but only made a few plays and can't beat out Gaffney for consistent playing time.

For the record, I like ALL the guys you mentioned (a little concerned about Moreno's upside), but outside of us Broncos fans looking through orange-colored glasses, nobody is going to look at those and his other draft choices/moves and say he has hit on more than he's missed. Not yet at least.

CoachChaz
11-24-2010, 08:02 AM
The answer to the thread question is defensive talent. Guys named Bannan, Vickerson, Haggans, etc, just dont cut it. We have a few nice finds in Hunter and Mays, but the big names (Dawkins, Bailey, Williams) are either overrated or past their prime or both.

With seasoning and improvement on the OL, I like the offense. Realistically, I thnk we can agree that NO ONE would have agreed with the following statement 2 years ago...

"If you take Kyle Orton and Brandon Lloyd and put them in the right system, they can be a Pro-Bowl passing combination"

The offense will be fine. It's the defense that kills this team and until we have any talent on that side of the ball...it will continue.

SOCALORADO.
11-24-2010, 08:45 AM
The answer to the thread question is defensive talent. Guys named Bannan, Vickerson, Haggans, etc, just dont cut it. We have a few nice finds in Hunter and Mays, but the big names (Dawkins, Bailey, Williams) are either overrated or past their prime or both.

With seasoning and improvement on the OL, I like the offense. Realistically, I thnk we can agree that NO ONE would have agreed with the following statement 2 years ago...

"If you take Kyle Orton and Brandon Lloyd and put them in the right system, they can be a Pro-Bowl passing combination"

The offense will be fine. It's the defense that kills this team and until we have any talent on that side of the ball...it will continue.

Ah, i think your giving waaay too much credit to the offense, and any issues it might have, your blaming on the defense.
The offense, including Orton sucks. Hes in a spread system that simply pads his stats with those cheesy dump offs and Lloyd making circus catch after circus catch to again pad Ortons stats and make him appear competent as a QB. He's not. Hes a career back up thats in a system that specifically is built to make the QB's numbers appear good on paper. On the field however, its a completely different story, as we all can clearly see.

The whole Pro Bowl passing combination thing is just laughable, and everyone knows it.

And yes the defense sucks, but your on crack if you think MCD can fix this.

atwater27
11-24-2010, 09:15 AM
i blame whatever idiot thought it was a good idea to put a 250-pound bulldozer of a RB on kick return duty in the first place. . .

Is that the same guy who had Spencer Larsen return 3 Monday?

G_Money
11-24-2010, 11:39 AM
Good to see you, Coach.

Until I see a running game I'm not gonna "like" this offense - and I'd prefer one where Tebow doesn't have to convert all our third-and-short or goal-to-go situations on the ground.

But I agree, the passing offense is workable.

The defense is not. Drafting DL at this point won't cut it. We need some guys who can play it for the next 2 years while we wait for the draftpicks to get decent at it. Several years ago we drafted 3 DL, and none of them is an impact player now. Two are no longer here.

The Steelers can build their DL through the draft because they have a scheme that never changes and years for the new guys to get good playing behind the old guys. That's the plan I wanted, but we're not going with that plan.

Our "get more old guys" plan is failing miserably again and we're not grooming anyone to replace them. We need a quality NT at LEAST or we're in deep, continuous trouble. And LBs, and safeties...

And that assumes that Wink is the right guy to run the defense and can actually get the most out of what he's given.

I have no confidence in the way we're building or coaching this defense, and I no longer believe we have an offense that could be great at any second and drag an average defense to 10+ win seasons.

Lots of work left to do.

~G

TXBRONC
11-24-2010, 12:16 PM
The answer to the thread question is defensive talent. Guys named Bannan, Vickerson, Haggans, etc, just dont cut it. We have a few nice finds in Hunter and Mays, but the big names (Dawkins, Bailey, Williams) are either overrated or past their prime or both.

With seasoning and improvement on the OL, I like the offense. Realistically, I thnk we can agree that NO ONE would have agreed with the following statement 2 years ago...

"If you take Kyle Orton and Brandon Lloyd and put them in the right system, they can be a Pro-Bowl passing combination"

The offense will be fine. It's the defense that kills this team and until we have any talent on that side of the ball...it will continue.

And why hasn't he addressed the defense? He knew coming in the defense needed attention yet he took basically the same approach that Shanahan was criticized for.
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Ravage!!!
11-24-2010, 12:27 PM
The answer to the thread question is defensive talent. Guys named Bannan, Vickerson, Haggans, etc, just dont cut it. We have a few nice finds in Hunter and Mays, but the big names (Dawkins, Bailey, Williams) are either overrated or past their prime or both.

With seasoning and improvement on the OL, I like the offense. Realistically, I thnk we can agree that NO ONE would have agreed with the following statement 2 years ago...

"If you take Kyle Orton and Brandon Lloyd and put them in the right system, they can be a Pro-Bowl passing combination"

The offense will be fine. It's the defense that kills this team and until we have any talent on that side of the ball...it will continue.

I agree with a lot of this... but I don't think our offense will be fine. It can't score, and worse, it doesn't convert third downs. I've seen few times where this offense looks like it can actually be a consistent threat. Having a series here, and a series there... a game against the Chiefs, and people forget just how bad this offense is about putting the ball in the endzone. Good offenses can help overcome bad defenses.... to a degree. But this offense doesn't help out this defense one tiny bit.

Lloyd is looking great this year....but has he EVER had a season like this in his career, and has he proved to be able to play like this for 2 seasons in a row? How much can this team truly rely on Brandon Lloyd to be this kind of player going forward when its nothing but question marks.

The Run game is horrendous, at best. Moreno is absolutely NOT a primary back type of talent.

I just don't see much good in this offense at this point. Saying that, I fully expect us to throw for a ton of yards against the cardinals and put up a ton of points. Not sure thats saying much.

ChampWJ
11-24-2010, 12:30 PM
In terms of hitting on "more picks than not", I'm not sure how you can say that. The only way to make that statement is to assume all the "potential" guys will turn out great.

Moreno's had one very good game as a pro. It took him a year and a half to have his first 100 yard game and last year was outplayed by Buck in most games. Ayers shows "promise", but is still a big question. Tebow? Many still doubt if he can be a starter, but regardless he has proven nothing to date. Could be great or could be Tim Crouch/Ryan Leaf. Beadles lost his starting job, and now has it again, Walton is being consistently pushed around (I hope both of those guys just need experience). Decker has done nothing to date, and Thomas has gotten LOTs of praise, but only made a few plays and can't beat out Gaffney for consistent playing time.

For the record, I like ALL the guys you mentioned (a little concerned about Moreno's upside), but outside of us Broncos fans looking through orange-colored glasses, nobody is going to look at those and his other draft choices/moves and say he has hit on more than he's missed. Not yet at least.

All valid points for sure. You're right that those guys haven't proven anything yet. I should have worded it like "assuming those guys develop into key players" we could have a strong, talented core of offensive talent. McDaniels has to believe that will be the case and has a vested interest in making sure it happens. If his players don't develop or he doesn't address other weak parts of the roster, that will determine his future.

He made the choice to rebuild the entire roster whether we like it or not and I think it would be taking another step back asking a new coach to come in here and do it completely over again.

arapaho2
11-24-2010, 01:16 PM
you know i hate the wink led defense..i think forcing nolan out with the lack of talent we have was a monumental ego driven mistake

but to sit here and see opinions that the offense isnt a issue and once we fix the defense we will be fine is worth a bucket of shit

look at monday

12 possesions...9 ended up in punts..one in a int..tell me what defense other then the ravens, jets or steelers would be able to hold rivers down all game..speciall given the fact the offense lost the TOP by nine friggen minutes

the bolts had 12 possesions also...with 50% ending up with zero points because the defense forced a punt, turnover or long FG

another should have been a punt if the STs didnt stop a fake punt

sandiego had five drives start near midfield...five!!!

you cant ask a defense to continue to defend that all game

and this is nearly every game...when we have scored twice on opening drives all season...thats bad

when thru 8 games we only scored once in the ist qrt

you cant just say its the defense...this offense sucks despite the illusion from the passing game

SOCALORADO.
11-24-2010, 01:20 PM
All valid points for sure. You're right that those guys haven't proven anything yet. I should have worded it like "assuming those guys develop into key players" we could have a strong, talented core of offensive talent. McDaniels has to believe that will be the case and has a vested interest in making sure it happens. If his players don't develop or he doesn't address other weak parts of the roster, that will determine his future.

He made the choice to rebuild the entire roster whether we like it or not and I think it would be taking another step back asking a new coach to come in here and do it completely over again.

Depends.
If Bowlen is willing to spend in FA, and have a GM and a new HC in place for the draft, i could see DEN being rebuilt in 2 years. Thats of course if the CBA was ironed out, hypothetically.

DEN needs 2 LBs period. A ILB and a OLB opposite Doom (healthy of course)
Both David Harris (ILB) and David Hawthorne (OLB) are FA's. DEN will have to pay big bucks, but they are big time players. Game changers. Hawthorne can play all over, and has. Gotta spend some coin to get them though.
Draft 2 3-4 DE's and a NT within the top 4 picks, which all would be within the top 3 rounds of the draft, and DEN is well on its way to defensive improvement. And 3-4 DE just happens to be a deep position this year.
And with that last pick in the top 3 rounds of the draft, get a full-time RB to tandem with Moreno. Someone like Mikel Leshoure.

DEN is well on its way to being at least competitive again in just one offseason.

arapaho2
11-24-2010, 01:45 PM
Depends.
If Bowlen is willing to spend in FA, and have a GM and a new HC in place for the draft, i could see DEN being rebuilt in 2 years. Thats of course if the CBA was ironed out, hypothetically.

DEN needs 2 LBs period. A ILB and a OLB opposite Doom (healthy of course)
Both David Harris (ILB) and David Hawthorne (OLB) are FA's. DEN will have to pay big bucks, but they are big time players. Game changers. Hawthorne can play all over, and has. Gotta spend some coin to get them though.
Draft 2 3-4 DE's and a NT within the top 4 picks, which all would be within the top 3 rounds of the draft, and DEN is well on its way to defensive improvement. And 3-4 DE just happens to be a deep position this year.
And with that last pick in the top 3 rounds of the draft, get a full-time RB to tandem with Moreno. Someone like Mikel Leshoure.

DEN is well on its way to being at least competitive again in just one offseason.

the right coach goes along way....talent aside

we just got the wrong coach

SOCALORADO.
11-24-2010, 02:46 PM
the right coach goes along way....talent aside

we just got the wrong coach

I am with you. Remember this guy!?!?

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_MPjuKmsJrwE/Syaf_BIrmqI/AAAAAAAAAiE/1E_O4mRnwqI/s400/Gruden.jpg

Krugan
11-24-2010, 02:55 PM
Is that the same guy who had Spencer Larsen return 3 Monday?

Larsen was meant to be a blocker, the problem was the kicks were all short. Spencer wasnt lined up as the returner.

Tned
11-24-2010, 03:02 PM
All valid points for sure. You're right that those guys haven't proven anything yet. I should have worded it like "assuming those guys develop into key players" we could have a strong, talented core of offensive talent. McDaniels has to believe that will be the case and has a vested interest in making sure it happens. If his players don't develop or he doesn't address other weak parts of the roster, that will determine his future.

He made the choice to rebuild the entire roster whether we like it or not and I think it would be taking another step back asking a new coach to come in here and do it completely over again.

Every coach believes the Tebow/DT/A. Smith/Beadles/Ayers/Walton's of the world will pan out, which is why they draft them. Fact is that there is zero indication that his group will. They are far from busts at this point, but they are in that infamous "P" group, which is potential. They have potential, but it is unkown if some or all of them will realize it.

SmilinAssasSin27
11-24-2010, 09:25 PM
I believe all new coaches should get 3 years...regardless of how bad it may seem during the transition. McD has clearly made questionable decisions, but he has also made good ones. If a guy is hired to make a team how he wants it, he should be given the chance. I'm not a McD apologist, cuz I'mm annoyed too, but I also believe 2 years isn't enough time. And here is why...

The team was gonna take a dive regardless of the coach. Writing was on the wall. Cutty's turnovers killed us in games we shoulda won...as did the defense which may have been the worst we ever had. After McD made all those cuts, only Bly was the one I had heard from again. Our defensive talent was crap. Also, our Oline was elderly. None of this is McD's fault. Nor would it have been the fault of anyone else who would have been hired. It was Shanny's doing...and defensively, things weren't looking to improve. Cutty was fun to watch, but I don't believe the kid is a winner. We had too many drafts where we picked in the low 20s and didn't have many shots at big time prospects...which is exactly how San Diego got good. They always pick high. LT and Rivers were both top picks, among others.

He has his plan. No I admit this plan does concern me as I hate as many moves he's made as I like.

The good: He addressed the OLine big time this draft. We needed to get younger. He dealt Jay for 2 #1s and a better QB. Hate Orton all ya want and call him a system guy. But isn't that the point? He's excelling in McD's system. Some say he thros dump offs and his stats are padded. Bull. He's flung it all around the yard this year. He's had bad moments, but he's also put up huge numbers. I also see a lot of drops. Those Orton's fault too? He also improved the D exponentially. Although patchwork w/ old vets, it's still better. Losing Ayers and Elvis killed us this year. Hopefully his plan includes inserting more young talent to supplant the elderly. 09 draft was played beautifully by McD. He got his guys by acquiring picks and not mortgaging the future drafts. When has anyone ever been able to move into round 1 w/o giving up future #1s?

The bad: Although I agree BM is a child, McD played his part in that mess. It didn't have to get THAT bad. Alphonso Smith. Okay, ya deal a #1 for a CB prospect. Great. I didn't agree, but I'm no scout. Go get YOUR guy coach. Ummm....trading Smith 1 year later made that a complete waste. Only having a small draft board in 08...unacceptable. Interfering w/ Nolan. That hurt the D's progress. Dealing Hillis now looks terrible. Usually, dealing a FB for a QB is a good thing...ummm...errr.

Well, that's my take. I know I haven't been on that much lately, but I have been watching. I see a parallel between Denver and my Tennessee Vols. In a rough patch, which has to get worse before it snaps out of it. The Vols are now showing off their freshmen and are giving fans hope for the future. Now it's Denver's turn to make a move in year 3. Changing the coach now will simply lead to another total overhaul and more despair. Maybe we'll have the despair anyways, but I think any coach should get a 3rd year to make their plan work.

I Eat Staples
11-24-2010, 09:31 PM
I believe all new coaches should get 3 years...regardless of how bad it may seem during the transition. McD has clearly made questionable decisions, but he has also made good ones. If a guy is hired to make a team how he wants it, he should be given the chance. I'm not a McD apologist, cuz I'mm annoyed too, but I also believe 2 years isn't enough time. And here is why...

The team was gonna take a dive regardless of the coach. Writing was on the wall. Cutty's turnovers killed us in games we shoulda won...as did the defense which may have been the worst we ever had. After McD made all those cuts, only Bly was the one I had heard from again. Our defensive talent was crap. Also, our Oline was elderly. None of this is McD's fault. Nor would it have been the fault of anyone else who would have been hired. It was Shanny's doing...and defensively, things weren't looking to improve. Cutty was fun to watch, but I don't believe the kid is a winner. We had too many drafts where we picked in the low 20s and didn't have many shots at big time prospects...which is exactly how San Diego got good. They always pick high. LT and Rivers were both top picks, among others.

He has his plan. No I admit this plan does concern me as I hate as many moves he's made as I like.

The good: He addressed the OLine big time this draft. We needed to get younger. He dealt Jay for 2 #1s and a better QB. Hate Orton all ya want and call him a system guy. But isn't that the point? He's excelling in McD's system. Some say he thros dump offs and his stats are padded. Bull. He's flung it all around the yard this year. He's had bad moments, but he's also put up huge numbers. I also see a lot of drops. Those Orton's fault too? He also improved the D exponentially. Although patchwork w/ old vets, it's still better. Losing Ayers and Elvis killed us this year. Hopefully his plan includes inserting more young talent to supplant the elderly. 09 draft was played beautifully by McD. He got his guys by acquiring picks and not mortgaging the future drafts. When has anyone ever been able to move into round 1 w/o giving up future #1s?

The bad: Although I agree BM is a child, McD played his part in that mess. It didn't have to get THAT bad. Alphonso Smith. Okay, ya deal a #1 for a CB prospect. Great. I didn't agree, but I'm no scout. Go get YOUR guy coach. Ummm....trading Smith 1 year later made that a complete waste. Only having a small draft board in 08...unacceptable. Interfering w/ Nolan. That hurt the D's progress. Dealing Hillis now looks terrible. Usually, dealing a FB for a QB is a good thing...ummm...errr.

Well, that's my take. I know I haven't been on that much lately, but I have been watching. I see a parallel between Denver and my Tennessee Vols. In a rough patch, which has to get worse before it snaps out of it. The Vols are now showing off their freshmen and are giving fans hope for the future. Now it's Denver's turn to make a move in year 3. Changing the coach now will simply lead to another total overhaul and more despair. Maybe we'll have the despair anyways, but I think any coach should get a 3rd year to make their plan work.

I didn't read this post and it may be very well written and thought out, but man I don't write this much for my college essays.

SmilinAssasSin27
11-24-2010, 09:34 PM
yeah...3 months worth of opinion built up.

Lancane
11-24-2010, 09:44 PM
yeah...3 months worth of opinion built up.

And I credit you, that was a well thought out and written example of one's opinion...

But in the end, I disagree...mainly on the point that you based most of your argument on a stretch using a collegiate coach and program for the platform basis. And there is a vast difference, I would have agreed if we did not have free agency at the pro level, then of course you have to take player development into consideration; but as the league is now, and in my opinion it's not viable because your paid to put the best product on the field, not only as a coach but as a manager of talent, if a first round pick is not better then your fourth rounder at the same position, then you play the fourth round pick and hope to develop the first rounder. But with free agency, you should be able to compete faster then teams could back in the 60's and 70's, when a coach and organization needed at least three.

SmilinAssasSin27
11-24-2010, 10:29 PM
And I credit you, that was a well thought out and written example of one's opinion...

But in the end, I disagree...mainly on the point that you based most of your argument on a stretch using a collegiate coach and program for the platform basis. And there is a vast difference, I would have agreed if we did not have free agency at the pro level, then of course you have to take player development into consideration; but as the league is now, and in my opinion it's not viable because your paid to put the best product on the field, not only as a coach but as a manager of talent, if a first round pick is not better then your fourth rounder at the same position, then you play the fourth round pick and hope to develop the first rounder. But with free agency, you should be able to compete faster then teams could back in the 60's and 70's, when a coach and organization needed at least three.

While I agree on some level, I have to disagree on depending on Free Agency to build a team. 3 of the past 4 Super Bowl champions are teams who build via the draft. Colts and Steelers rarely pay for a big name free agent and often allow their own players who want big money leave town. New Orleans built most of their team via the draft, but acquired some key parts via trade and FA. New England prides themselves on retooling via the draft.

Free Agents are often overpriced, which hurts teams' salary caps. Good drafting/plannning can improve a team quicker and for longer term success than can Free Agency. Sure, FAs are fun to acquire and they may be a final piece to put a team over the top, but winners are based on a good infrastructure and that means draft results in the NFL.

And my opinion is not based on Tennessee. It is simply a parallel that I have been watching unfold for 2 years.

Lancane
11-24-2010, 11:00 PM
While I agree on some level, I have to disagree on depending on Free Agency to build a team. 3 of the past 4 Super Bowl champions are teams who build via the draft. Colts and Steelers rarely pay for a big name free agent and often allow their own players who want big money leave town. New Orleans built most of their team via the draft, but acquired some key parts via trade and FA. New England prides themselves on retooling via the draft.

Free Agents are often overpriced, which hurts teams' salary caps. Good drafting/plannning can improve a team quicker and for longer term success than can Free Agency. Sure, FAs are fun to acquire and they may be a final piece to put a team over the top, but winners are based on a good infrastructure and that means draft results in the NFL.

And my opinion is not based on Tennessee. It is simply a parallel that I have been watching unfold for 2 years.

I concur that the best route to being a constant success in this league is to build through the draft. However, the point still stands that I was making...you still have to compete. Pittsburgh builds through the draft, but usually has veteran talent ahead of those drafted give high picks, this way they're building but competing without losing much. Belichick is given too much credit in New England, he took over a team with many pieces in place and had only two drafts prior to his winning a Super Bowl, he continues to build through the draft, but he also knows to compete he needs to sign free agents. You can not find an example of a team with total youth and little veteran help that has won it all in the past two decades.

JDL
11-26-2010, 11:03 PM
It isn't talent... I can tell you that much... it is a QB driven league and we are getting terrific play at the position and overall I would say that talent-wise there isn't any kind of huge gap between us and the other teams in our division.

But, here are our deficits in losses over this very wretched year and a half of football and the Lions over the exact same time period.

2010
21pts
8pts
45pts
4pts
14pts
14pts
7pts
2010 margin of defeat: 16.1pts/defeat

2009 from bye week on
20pts
3pts
1pt
12pts
29pts
10pts
18pts
23pts
2009 margin of defeat: 14.5pts/defeat



Detroit Lions

2010
21pts
16pts
2pts
3pts
8pts
2pts
14pts
3pts
5pts
2010 margin of defeat: 8.2pts/defeat

2009 from bye week on
14pts
14pts
7pts
45pts
10pts
22pts
17pts
12pts
7pts
2009 (from bye week) margin of defeat: 16.4pts/defeat


Point is that in a league where it takes less than 2 years for most franchises to turnaround and where talent level is so evenly spread - we are quickly becoming the equivalent of a franchise that has long been considered the worst in the NFL.

We are not competitive week in and week out, and you cannot say that about Mike Shanahan coached teams up until the last season. And that was a big reason we had to make a change. I thought it was probably a year too late not because he was or ever has been a bad coach, but it is hard to maintain perspective perched like he was in an untouchable position, I think the experience reinvigorated him and he will re-establish himself in a way that we've come to know him. But, the franchise appears to have made a horrible mistake, it is in total disarray and is seemingly just unable to to do much to hang in with even mediocre teams. There is no excuse for the Defense... Nolan had an even less talented DL quite frankly (most of whom are out of the league now) and made do, and did quite well. The Special Teams coverage and return units continue to be abysmal despite talented kick returners... and coverage guys. The OL is finally healthy and looks great but there is no excuse for the lag, it is has a pair of the best tackles in the game and if you can't build a decent OL with that, you are not doing your job as many coaches do more with far less.

On the flipside, McD has done a flat out amazing job with Orton and even scouting WRs.... no question and the passing game is excellent... but he really is not a good HEAD coach or at least he has not been... he may be better off being a QB coach in the league (as OC doesn't do a good job developing the run game and the NE teams never have really.)

I am hopeful to one day land Jeff Fisher in Denver... I think he would be the perfect fit... and I wouldn't be adverse to Heimerdinger, but he doesn't seem to be viewed as much of a HC candidate anymore. We probably should have hired a defensive-minded coach before... but now with all the talent on the offensive side including Tebow, we need a coach who can properly mold that and balance out what is still a very very exciting unit.

Shazam!
11-27-2010, 01:31 AM
Denver needs a HC who will bring leadership, accountability, discipline, balance and fundamentals to this team.

Denver right now has very little or none of these things. Sorry IMO.

robert ethan
11-27-2010, 01:53 AM
Broncos need.........a tight end. I'm too lazy to look back through the thread to see if anyone has brought this up already. Did you see the difference that Rob Gronkowski made for the Pats in their last game? Scary. Rob was on my wish list alongside Tebow and Thomas, but it would have been a bit much to expect all three. They got Dan Gronkowski, and I think he may be the best of the three on the team at the moment, but he isn't going to scare any defenses going up the seam. A good #2 guy who can block and act as a safety valve.

So......Kyle Rudolph if he opts in. Kyle is the size of Rob Gronkowski with better speed. There isn't really anyone else to get excited about at the position in 2011 and 2012.

Bosco
11-27-2010, 03:21 AM
Defensive line, defensive line and more defensive line.

Canmore
11-27-2010, 03:33 AM
A new coach and a real GM.

PAINTERDAVE
11-27-2010, 03:41 AM
Q - What does Denver Broncos need?

A - A good swift kick in the A$$