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Dreadnought
11-23-2010, 01:55 PM
I first logged into the Site this AM prepared for bloody red rage and furious battles between posters. I have to say I was pretty surprised at the level of calm prevailing, given what we witnessed last night.

The more I thought about it though, the more it made sense. For so many of us hardcore fans what more is there to say? Most (though not quite all) are now sick and tired of the Ellis/Xanders/McDaniels regime. Some came to it early. Some as recently as last night. We all have our own reasons and breaking points. I suspect its because the truly hopeful desperately wanted to believe that the Bye, plus a good win versus K.C., meant that this was really turned around. Philip Rivers and the Chargers disabused the fan base of that.

I will say, as an early McDaniels skeptic, that I have a measure of respect for those of us who backed him for far longer than I could. It is a tough thing to admit to yourself that the folks you maintained faith in have increasingly made you look foolish - especially as many of the McDaniels supporters are very far from fools themselves. In that case, I would say shame on the men who embarrassed their adherents, not on the adherents themselves. Youse guys tune in to Bronco games hopeful, never saying die, praising the guys who represent the orange and blue, constructing scenarios where the Broncs really aren't eliminated from playoff contention, finding bright spots. As harsh as I've been on the McDaniels regime I have tried not to insult those who were clinging to hope that this guy actually knew what he was doing.

It hasn't been a barrel o' laughs watching these boneheads deconstruct this football team, even when things were playing out like I thought they would. Its often better to be wrong. I was hoping my own predictions would be about as perceptive as my one time conviction that Lenny Walls was going to be a shut-down corner, or that Brian Griese would win us a Superbowl.

Eventually, though, we got to here. The fanbase is angry, but mostly not turning on each other right now. What more is there to fight about? The 2010 Broncos suck, big time, and we're all stuck with this, at least until there is a change in management. Then, I hope, we can get back to arguing with each other about whether we are on the right track to return to glory, or are "merely" an 8-8 team :D

shank
11-23-2010, 01:58 PM
9-7

Northman
11-23-2010, 01:59 PM
I first logged into the Site this AM prepared for bloody red rage and furious battles between posters. I have to say I was pretty surprised at the level of calm prevailing, given what we witnessed last night.

The more I thought about it though, the more it made sense. For so many of us hardcore fans what more is there to say? Most (though not quite all) are now sick and tired of the Ellis/Xanders/McDaniels regime. Some came to it early. Some as recently as last night. We all have our own reasons and breaking points. I suspect its because the truly hopeful desperately wanted to believe that the Bye, plus a good win versus K.C., meant that this was really turned around. Philip Rivers and the Chargers disabused the fan base of that.

I will say, as an early McDaniels skeptic, that I have a measure of respect for those of us who backed him for far longer than I could. It is a tough thing to admit to yourself that the folks you maintained faith in have increasingly made you look foolish - especially as many of the McDaniels supporters are very far from fools themselves. In that case, I would say shame on the men who embarrassed their adherents, not on the adherents themselves. Youse guys tune in to Bronco games hopeful, never saying die, praising the guys who represent the orange and blue, constructing scenarios where the Broncs really aren't eliminated from playoff contention, finding bright spots. As harsh as I've been on the McDaniels regime I have tried not to insult those who were clinging to hope that this guy actually knew what he was doing.

It hasn't been a barrel o' laughs watching these boneheads deconstruct this football team, even when things were playing out like I thought they would. Its often better to be wrong. I was hoping my own predictions would be about as perceptive as my one time conviction that Lenny Walls was going to be a shut-down corner, or that Brian Griese would win us a Superbowl.

Eventually, though, we got to here. The fanbase is angry, but mostly not turning on each other right now. What more is there to fight about? The 2010 Broncos suck, big time, and we're all stuck with this, at least until there is a change in management. Then, I hope, we can get back to arguing with each other about whether we are on the right track to return to glory, or are "merely" an 8-8 team :D

Exactly. Great post. There is just nothing more to really talk about as things have unfolded like some of us have predicted.

robert ethan
11-23-2010, 02:03 PM
He had back to back 5-11 seasons the two years before he won his first Super Bowl. His CAREER RECORD at that point was 41-55 as an NFL head coach. Show a little patience.

BroncoStud
11-23-2010, 02:03 PM
Yeah man, it really seems that those of us who held ANY faith in this regime finally gave in last night and accepted the truth that has been staring us all in the face - these guys have set the team back, a lot.

I don't think there is really anything to do at this point but hope and see if Bowlen makes the move to rectify the situation. I also think many of us hope that John Elway will take a more active role in the franchise and perhaps assist Bowlen in the future.

It would be very difficult to justify keeping McDaniels/Xander/Ellis at this point. It's not just the losses, it's the way we lose, it's how the team reacts, it's the horrible personnel decisions, it's getting rid of Mike Nolan, it's sending our best RB to Cleveland for a backup QB when you give one a contract and draft another one in the 1st round, it's immediately shopping Cutler for inferior QBs, it's losing to the Raiders 59-14 in Denver, it's so many different mistakes and patterns that have made one thing clear...

IT'S NOT WORKING.

slim
11-23-2010, 02:04 PM
Exactly. Great post. There is just nothing more to really talk about as things have unfolded like some of us have predicted.

If this logic was true, then how do you explain the activity in the political forum :coffee:

:welcome:

Dreadnought
11-23-2010, 02:06 PM
If this logic was true, then how do you explain the activity in the political forum :coffee:

:welcome:

Some us are just more perceptive than others, Slim. Its OK though :salute:

GEM
11-23-2010, 02:07 PM
Let's hope some don't trip and break a leg as they stumble over the I told you so's.

Northman
11-23-2010, 02:07 PM
If this logic was true, then how do you explain the activity in the political forum :coffee:

:welcome:


Stay out of this clownboy. :elefant:

shank
11-23-2010, 02:08 PM
Let's hope some don't trip and break a leg as they stumble over the I told you so's.

i'm going to not hope they don't. :D

Dreadnought
11-23-2010, 02:10 PM
Stay out of this clownboy. :elefant:

He can't help it. We are two days removed from Americas greatest festival of gluttony. Slim gets giddy and lightheaded daydreaming about it

Lancane
11-23-2010, 02:10 PM
He had back to back 5-11 seasons the two years before he won his first Super Bowl. His CAREER RECORD at that point was 41-55 as an NFL head coach. Show a little patience.

Ummmm....sorry to tell you but your wrong, Bill Belichick was named the head coach of the Patriots in 2000 and they went 5-11 that season, in 2001 the team rebounded and had a 11-5 season and won the Super Bowl. From 97' through 99' he was the Assistant Head Coach and Defensive Back Coach for the New York Jets.

robert ethan
11-23-2010, 02:11 PM
Look at it this way....

All things being equal, an NFL team has a 1 in 32 chance of winning a Super Bowl. If you become a fan of a team at the age of 18, you can reasonably expect your team to win one championship by the time you turn 50. An All Pro type player who has a 16 year career in the league has a 50/50 chance of getting a SB ring by the time he retires. It's just not logical to expect instant success and constant gratification as a sports fan.

Dreadnought
11-23-2010, 02:11 PM
Let's hope some don't trip and break a leg as they stumble over the I told you so's.

Claymore was like our John the Baptist GEM. "The voice of him that crieth in the Wilderness" That's who he was.

shank
11-23-2010, 02:12 PM
Claymore was like our John the Baptist GEM. "The voice of him that crieth in the Wilderness" That's who he was.

he's still cletus the sock-rapist to me.

robert ethan
11-23-2010, 02:15 PM
Ummmm....sorry to tell you but your wrong, Bill Belichick was named the head coach of the Patriots in 2000 and they went 5-11 that season, in 2001 the team rebounded and had a 11-5 season and won the Super Bowl. From 97' through 99' he was the Assistant Head Coach and Defensive Back Coach for the New York Jets.

I'll be more specific...Bellyache's last two HEAD COACHING gigs were 5-11 prior to his first SB. His career record as a head coach was the same as I mentioned. Six seasons in the league with about a .440 winning percentage and one playoff run.

Dzone
11-23-2010, 02:17 PM
its peaceful now because we have all resigned ourselves to he fact that Mcdaniels sucks and there really isnt a damn thing we can do about it because he is going to be around for at least another year of this futility and abject failure.

BroncoNut
11-23-2010, 02:18 PM
nice thread.

I think the reaction you might be seeing here on the forum is akin to that of Orton and Bailey yukking it up last night after a loss. what more can one do at this time? Really nothing, and when you realize that, it can be a peaceful experience indeed. Kinda like getting banged in the bunghole by a guy name Bubba I would suppose

Dzone
11-23-2010, 02:20 PM
It would be a lot easier to be patient with Mcdaniels if he wasnt such an arrogant jerk...No, I dont hate Mcdaniels..thats too strong a word...Im sure he is a good husband and good father, but as a coach he blows

Nomad
11-23-2010, 02:20 PM
9-7

There is still a chance of that happening!!:tinfoil3::madgrin:

KCL
11-23-2010, 02:22 PM
Look at it this way....

All things being equal, an NFL team has a 1 in 32 chance of winning a Super Bowl. If you become a fan of a team at the age of 18, you can reasonably expect your team to win one championship by the time you turn 50. An All Pro type player who has a 16 year career in the league has a 50/50 chance of getting a SB ring by the time he retires. It's just not logical to expect instant success and constant gratification as a sports fan.

*cough* *cough*

okay..whatever you say...:D

slim
11-23-2010, 02:23 PM
He can't help it. We are two days removed from Americas greatest festival of gluttony. Slim gets giddy and lightheaded daydreaming about it

I am going to need a new pair of "fat jeans".

BroncoStud
11-23-2010, 02:23 PM
Look at it this way....

All things being equal, an NFL team has a 1 in 32 chance of winning a Super Bowl. If you become a fan of a team at the age of 18, you can reasonably expect your team to win one championship by the time you turn 50. An All Pro type player who has a 16 year career in the league has a 50/50 chance of getting a SB ring by the time he retires. It's just not logical to expect instant success and constant gratification as a sports fan.

I don't think anyone predicted Super Bowl, but a competitive team and some hope for the future isn't too much to expect.

Nomad
11-23-2010, 02:23 PM
its peaceful now because we have all resigned ourselves to he fact that Mcdaniels sucks and there really isnt a damn thing we can do about it because he is going to be around for at least another year of this futility and abject failure.

Pretty much unless you organize a protest at Dove Valley and the seats are empty come the next few home games!! Then again Bowlen may just stay home!!

Italianmobstr7
11-23-2010, 02:27 PM
I'll support McDaniels as long as he's the Broncos coach. Teams go through rough times. It happens. It's the ones who continue to support the team through good times and bad that will feel much more gratified when this gets turned around.

Lancane
11-23-2010, 02:29 PM
Pretty much unless you organize a protest at Dove Valley and the seats are empty come the next few home games!! Then again Bowlen may just stay home!!

Except that Sunday, McDaniels and company are likely to get the 'Boo' treatment from 50,000 strong at Invesco Field. On another note, I look forward to seeing Sam Bradford play, talk about a solid young quarterback with tremendous upside.

Northman
11-23-2010, 02:30 PM
I don't think anyone predicted Super Bowl, but a competitive team and some hope for the future isn't too much to expect.

Or just actually seeing progress in the winning column as opposed to the losing column. I would of taken a 10-6 record and a division title at this point.

BroncoNut
11-23-2010, 02:31 PM
Except that Sunday, McDaniels and company are likely to get the 'Boo' treatment from 50,000 strong at Invesco Field. On another note, I look forward to seeing Sam Bradford play, talk about a solid young quarterback with tremendous upside.

man Lancane.

Northman
11-23-2010, 02:31 PM
I'll support McDaniels as long as he's the Broncos coach. Teams go through rough times. It happens. It's the ones who continue to support the team through good times and bad that will feel much more gratified when this gets turned around.

Yea, ive been through some rough patches and sometimes it means changes coaches. But, when we start winning again i will be totally gratified like you said.

dogfish
11-23-2010, 02:31 PM
dread, i guess there's not much to say. . .

KCL
11-23-2010, 02:32 PM
dread, i guess there's not much to say. . .

Really...I thought only hippies talked about peace...:D

Nomad
11-23-2010, 02:32 PM
Except that Sunday, McDaniels and company are likely to get the 'Boo' treatment from 50,000 strong at Invesco Field. On another note, I look forward to seeing Sam Bradford play, talk about a solid young quarterback with tremendous upside.

Game won't be shown here, so I guess it'll be highlights though the game will be aired on the radio here at least!!

BroncoNut
11-23-2010, 02:33 PM
dread, i guess there's not much to say. . .

ummm... that's pretty much what Dread said (reference 2nd sentence of 2nd paragraph)

:D ( I am REALLY bored)

dogfish
11-23-2010, 02:34 PM
Game won't be shown here, so I guess it'll be highlights though the game will be aired on the radio here at least!!

or lowlights, as is more likely the case with this team. . . :laugh:

BroncoNut
11-23-2010, 02:34 PM
Really...I thought only hippies talked about peace...:D

yeah, I thought that was kinda weird too. Peace and Dread don't seem to go together well

Nomad
11-23-2010, 02:35 PM
or lowlights, as is more likely the case with this team. . . :laugh:

We'll beat the Rams for sure!!:nod:

Lancane
11-23-2010, 02:39 PM
We'll beat the Rams for sure!!:nod:

Don't ever give a guarantee...lol. Remember, they did beat the team that spanked us last night, and when it comes to homefield advantages it works in our favor as about as much as stepping in horse shit!

:lol:

sanluis
11-23-2010, 02:40 PM
I'll support McDaniels as long as he's the Broncos coach. Teams go through rough times. It happens. It's the ones who continue to support the team through good times and bad that will feel much more gratified when this gets turned around.

You are a true fan! :beer:

Lancane
11-23-2010, 02:41 PM
You are a true fan! :beer:

Here we go with this shit again...:tsk:

Nomad
11-23-2010, 02:41 PM
Don't ever give a guarantee...lol. Remember, they did beat the team that spanked us last night, and when it comes to homefield advantages it works in our favor as about as much as stepping in horse shit!

:lol:

You asked for it.....I guarantee we win on Sunday!!:D

sanluis
11-23-2010, 02:43 PM
Here we go with this shit again...:tsk:

Denver fans have had it easy for years IMO. Now is the time when you all will be tested. I know most of you will have the metal to stick with your team. It will be tuff. Ask Tops about the early Bronco years. They struggled a lot early on. Elway and Shannahan have helped Denver have only one losing season in a long time. So I don't feel sorry for you guys one bit.

Suck it up !! :D:lol:

KCL
11-23-2010, 02:49 PM
You asked for it.....I guarantee we win on Sunday!!:D

You and your damn guarantees....:mad:
;)

Denver Native (Carol)
11-23-2010, 03:00 PM
Let's hope some don't trip and break a leg as they stumble over the I told you so's.

I have not given up on this regime. I have listened to many things on the different local radio sports talk radio shows today.

It was either Gary or Vic who stated that the downfall for the Broncos started when Shanahan replaced Jake with Jay.

Can't remember who said it - whether it was Gary, Vic, or who, but they stated the problem with the Broncos is defense, and it all started with Shanahan's bad drafts for defensive players - Jarvis Moss was one mentioned, can not remember the others who were mentioned.

Gary/Vic also had on a person from SD - either a sports talk person or sports writer, and he stated that the SD fans are totally upset with the Chargers 5 - 5 record.

Vic also stated that unless the Broncos get dumped on in their remaining games - landside losses, Coach McD will be here next year, and even if the Broncos do get dumped on in their remaining games, Vic's feeling is that Coach McD will still be here.

Denver Native (Carol)
11-23-2010, 03:02 PM
I'll support McDaniels as long as he's the Broncos coach. Teams go through rough times. It happens. It's the ones who continue to support the team through good times and bad that will feel much more gratified when this gets turned around.

:salute: I'm with you 100%

turftoad
11-23-2010, 03:14 PM
He had back to back 5-11 seasons the two years before he won his first Super Bowl. His CAREER RECORD at that point was 41-55 as an NFL head coach. Show a little patience.

Josh McDaniels IS NOT Bill Belichick. :tsk:

GEM
11-23-2010, 03:15 PM
I have not given up on this regime. I have listened to many things on the different local radio sports talk radio shows today.

It was either Gary or Vic who stated that the downfall for the Broncos started when Shanahan replaced Jake with Jay.

Can't remember who said it - whether it was Gary, Vic, or who, but they stated the problem with the Broncos is defense, and it all started with Shanahan's bad drafts for defensive players - Jarvis Moss was one mentioned, can not remember the others who were mentioned.

Gary/Vic also had on a person from SD - either a sports talk person or sports writer, and he stated that the SD fans are totally upset with the Chargers 5 - 5 record.

Vic also stated that unless the Broncos get dumped on in their remaining games - landside losses, Coach McD will be here next year, and even if the Broncos do get dumped on in their remaining games, Vic's feeling is that Coach McD will still be here.

McD will ONLY be here next season because at that point Bowlen would have 3 coaches on the payroll. It's not of his own merit, because at some point, keeping McD is going to affect Bowlen's general ledger. People will stop buying the product if the company puts a terrible product on the market too long.

It did start when Jake got benched for Cutler.....but that was part of why Shanny got canned. This regime is separate from that issue. It was supposed to get better. We were told that we weren't rebuilding, which if you had a brain in the world, you'd know was bullshit. This team is rebuilding, they should have just said so....but because they didn't they have people's expectations set high. Then to see this product....there's no way to be behind them. At least not the coach.

This team didn't need a complete overhaul...but after McD did what he did, it did. No, when he got here we didn't need a rebuild, we needed a fine tune. Now this team is trashed. There is no other way to put it. Completely defunct of talent, defunct of heart and defunct of pride. Now we are at the bottom of the heap and need a build up from the ground up. As we've seen with McD's drafts...he will not be able to do so. I dread April's draft if McD is left in charge of it.

Carol, I haven't turned my back on the Broncos, I still love this team as dearly as I did last week, last year, last decade and since the day I became a fan....but my expectations are high for this team. I want a team to be proud of. I can't be proud of a team that quits and they effing quit last night. I can't be proud of sitting at home with my stomach in knots over a team, while the players on that team are laughing and joking on the sideline. So I'll continue to root for them, I'll continue to watch, but I won't spend my money on gear, I won't buy tickets and I'll hit Mr. Bowlen in the wallet...because maybe if he sees his dollars dwindling, he'll realize that change is necessary.

Mike
11-23-2010, 03:22 PM
Denver fans have had it easy for years IMO. Now is the time when you all will be tested. I know most of you will have the metal to stick with your team. It will be tuff. Ask Tops about the early Bronco years. They struggled a lot early on. Elway and Shannahan have helped Denver have only one losing season in a long time. So I don't feel sorry for you guys one bit.

Suck it up !! :D:lol:

Not liking the coach and feeling the team is going in the wrong direction doesn't mean we have stopped supporting the team. :rolleyes:

BORDERLINE
11-23-2010, 03:22 PM
We are all at peace, becouse WE all know WE SUCK.....
No ones really used to losing ,or being out of the playoff race this early
This just Blows

turftoad
11-23-2010, 03:25 PM
McD will ONLY be here next season because at that point Bowlen would have 3 coaches on the payroll. It's not of his own merit, because at some point, keeping McD is going to affect Bowlen's general ledger. People will stop buying the product if the company puts a terrible product on the market too long.

It did start when Jake got benched for Cutler.....but that was part of why Shanny got canned. This regime is separate from that issue. It was supposed to get better. We were told that we weren't rebuilding, which if you had a brain in the world, you'd know was bullshit. This team is rebuilding, they should have just said so....but because they didn't they have people's expectations set high. Then to see this product....there's no way to be behind them. At least not the coach.

This team didn't need a complete overhaul...but after McD did what he did, it did. No, when he got here we didn't need a rebuild, we needed a fine tune. Now this team is trashed. There is no other way to put it. Completely defunct of talent, defunct of heart and defunct of pride. Now we are at the bottom of the heap and need a build up from the ground up. As we've seen with McD's drafts...he will not be able to do so. I dread April's draft if McD is left in charge of it.

Carol, I haven't turned my back on the Broncos, I still love this team as dearly as I did last week, last year, last decade and since the day I became a fan....but my expectations are high for this team. I want a team to be proud of. I can't be proud of a team that quits and they effing quit last night. I can't be proud of sitting at home with my stomach in knots over a team, while the players on that team are laughing and joking on the sideline. So I'll continue to root for them, I'll continue to watch, but I won't spend my money on gear, I won't buy tickets and I'll hit Mr. Bowlen in the wallet...because maybe if he sees his dollars dwindling, he'll realize that change is necessary.

It's OK to love your team but not the coach. ;)

The team is bigger than any one person and that includes the head coach.

BroncoNut
11-23-2010, 03:25 PM
We are all at peace, becouse WE all know WE SUCK.....
No ones really used to losing ,or being out of the playoff race this early
This just Blows

but it's peaceful knowing that we are losers

GEM
11-23-2010, 03:28 PM
I'm going to go watch some Butkus footage so I can remember what a player with heart and pride looks like....:tsk: That and I just love watching offensive players piss their pants. :lol:

Nomad
11-23-2010, 03:28 PM
GEM....when you gonna organize the picket line at Dove Valley and in front of Mile High!:D

Too bad the players/coaches don't get paid by wins and losses or how well they do their jobs!!

GEM
11-23-2010, 03:29 PM
GEM....when you gonna organize the picket line at Dove Valley and in front of Mile High!:D

Too bad the players/coaches don't get paid by wins and losses or how well they do their jobs!!

We can start up a Fire McDaniels petition online. Dogfish and I will go down to Invesco...Dog will gather physical signatures for Bring Back the Orange and I will gather physical signatures to send Napoleon back to France. :salute:

Lancane
11-23-2010, 03:30 PM
Denver fans have had it easy for years IMO. Now is the time when you all will be tested. I know most of you will have the metal to stick with your team. It will be tuff. Ask Tops about the early Bronco years. They struggled a lot early on. Elway and Shannahan have helped Denver have only one losing season in a long time. So I don't feel sorry for you guys one bit.

Suck it up !! :D:lol:

I'm older then you in all likelyhood and I know a bit about the harsh times Denver went through...Top and I are friends and discussed this over the years...but this isn't the 60's where you can field a losing team continually and keep your position. You're paid to coach and put the best product on the field, period!

GEM
11-23-2010, 03:31 PM
Not liking the coach and feeling the team is going in the wrong direction doesn't mean we have stopped supporting the team. :rolleyes:

I had to bite my tongue...I almost yanked SanLuis into the smack forum for a smackdown over that post. :lol:

Nomad
11-23-2010, 03:32 PM
We can start up a Fire McDaniels petition online. Dogfish and I will go down to Invesco...Dog will gather physical signatures for Bring Back the Orange and I will gather physical signatures to send Napoleon back to France. :salute:

Are they wearing the ORANGE on Sunday!!

Dreadnought
11-23-2010, 03:33 PM
I'm going to go watch some Butkus footage so I can remember what a player with heart and pride looks like....:tsk: That and I just love watching offensive players piss their pants. :lol:

Al Wilson. Rod Smith. Eddie McCaffery. Steve Atwater. Mark Schlereth. Wonder what those guys think of these candy-asses?

GEM
11-23-2010, 03:36 PM
Al Wilson. Rod Smith. Eddie McCaffery. Steve Atwater. Mark Schlereth. Wonder what those guys think of these candy-asses?

Schlereth is on every afternoon...he doesn't speak highly AT ALL of this team. I missed McCaffery's show this morning, but in weeks past he has been critical.

And that is them being nice because if you caught them off camera and off the record they probably just shake their heads and ask WTF happened there?

TXBRONC
11-23-2010, 03:36 PM
I have not given up on this regime. I have listened to many things on the different local radio sports talk radio shows today.

It was either Gary or Vic who stated that the downfall for the Broncos started when Shanahan replaced Jake with Jay.

Can't remember who said it - whether it was Gary, Vic, or who, but they stated the problem with the Broncos is defense, and it all started with Shanahan's bad drafts for defensive players - Jarvis Moss was one mentioned, can not remember the others who were mentioned.

Gary/Vic also had on a person from SD - either a sports talk person or sports writer, and he stated that the SD fans are totally upset with the Chargers 5 - 5 record.

Vic also stated that unless the Broncos get dumped on in their remaining games - landside losses, Coach McD will be here next year, and even if the Broncos do get dumped on in their remaining games, Vic's feeling is that Coach McD will still be here.

Those are very poor excuse on their part Carol.

First of all I don't care if Charger fans are upset that their team is 5-5. They we're upset last year until they turned it round and won what 12 games in a row.

Blaming Shanahan who hasn't been here in two year is total bullshit. McDaniels has several opportunities to fix what was broken.

I'm not trying to lay this off on you Carol but whichever reporter it is that saying this is pathetic.

Northman
11-23-2010, 03:38 PM
McD will ONLY be here next season because at that point Bowlen would have 3 coaches on the payroll. It's not of his own merit, because at some point, keeping McD is going to affect Bowlen's general ledger. People will stop buying the product if the company puts a terrible product on the market too long.

It did start when Jake got benched for Cutler.....but that was part of why Shanny got canned. This regime is separate from that issue. It was supposed to get better. We were told that we weren't rebuilding, which if you had a brain in the world, you'd know was bullshit. This team is rebuilding, they should have just said so....but because they didn't they have people's expectations set high. Then to see this product....there's no way to be behind them. At least not the coach.

This team didn't need a complete overhaul...but after McD did what he did, it did. No, when he got here we didn't need a rebuild, we needed a fine tune. Now this team is trashed. There is no other way to put it. Completely defunct of talent, defunct of heart and defunct of pride. Now we are at the bottom of the heap and need a build up from the ground up. As we've seen with McD's drafts...he will not be able to do so. I dread April's draft if McD is left in charge of it.

Carol, I haven't turned my back on the Broncos, I still love this team as dearly as I did last week, last year, last decade and since the day I became a fan....but my expectations are high for this team. I want a team to be proud of. I can't be proud of a team that quits and they effing quit last night. I can't be proud of sitting at home with my stomach in knots over a team, while the players on that team are laughing and joking on the sideline. So I'll continue to root for them, I'll continue to watch, but I won't spend my money on gear, I won't buy tickets and I'll hit Mr. Bowlen in the wallet...because maybe if he sees his dollars dwindling, he'll realize that change is necessary.

Well said. Probably my favorite post from you.

Northman
11-23-2010, 03:40 PM
We can start up a Fire McDaniels petition online. Dogfish and I will go down to Invesco...Dog will gather physical signatures for Bring Back the Orange and I will gather physical signatures to send Napoleon back to France. :salute:

Nah, that system wont work with Dog, he brings nothing to the table. However Jugs for Plugs would work great if your there in person. :D

GEM
11-23-2010, 03:40 PM
I heard Vic did say that McD would be here next year...because Bowlen won't pay 3 coaches.

Gary said he might not make it because the people are pissed. Vic told him there is no way McD is going anywhere....SOLELY because of the finance end for Bowlen.

A caller pointed out that the issues started with Jake/Jay. They agreed that initially that is where it started. They didn't go too much further into it as they took another call.

KCL
11-23-2010, 03:44 PM
Those are very poor excuse on their part Carol.

First of all I don't care if Charger fans are upset that their team is 5-5. They we're upset last year until they turned it round and won what 12 games in a row.

Blaming Shanahan who hasn't been here in two year is total bullshit. McDaniels has several opportunities to fix what was broken.
I'm trying to lay this off on you Carol but which reporter it is that saying this is pathetic.

I agree with this TX.

Dzone
11-23-2010, 03:47 PM
Everywhere you look in the national Media, they are saying Mcdaniels is on the hotseat..do they know something we dont know? Mere speculation? I just dont see Mcdoofus getting canned until after next years losing season. Am I being a pessimist? How can anyone believe in this clown?

Northman
11-23-2010, 03:47 PM
I agree with this TX.

As do I.

Lancane
11-23-2010, 03:50 PM
Everywhere you look in the national Media, they are saying Mcdaniels is on the hotseat..do they know something we dont know? Mere speculation? I just dont see Mcdoofus getting canned until after next years losing season. Am I being a pessimist? How can anyone believe in this clown?

Because too many people associate clowns with the likes of Bozo and Ronald McDonald, instead they should have been paying attention to Pennywise from Stephen King's It!

:lol:

robert ethan
11-23-2010, 03:52 PM
I think the plan for this season was to prop up the D with vets to keep the team respectable while the offense was being rebuilt with younger players. It should have worked, but I think that Martindale hasn't done his part in coaching what should be a solid, veteran, defense to it's capability. Injuries have been a factor, for sure, but the defense is around 30th in the league statistically. It should be better than that.

G_Money
11-23-2010, 03:53 PM
I heard Vic did say that McD would be here next year...because Bowlen won't pay 3 coaches.

Gary said he might not make it because the people are pissed. Vic told him there is no way McD is going anywhere....SOLELY because of the finance end for Bowlen.

I agree, this will happen. Which doesn't mean it should.

This is how you get idiocy like Linehan getting 4 games into the next season after he should have been canned, and THEN getting fired. Why not waste another year because you don't want to eat a whole year's salary, right? Eating 3/4 of it is fine, though. It's not like season ticket holders get to pay, just like Bowlen, for atrocious football and getting stomped by division rivals.

We'll see. I don't think Josh will be fired this year either.

If he goes 3-3 to finish out the season, he should be back. With two games against the Rams and the Cards that he should win, that means he just needs ONE against the Raiders, Chiefs, Chargers or Texans. That's doable.

If he gets curb-stomped in Arrowhead, the Black Hole, or especially at home to wrap the year, all bets are off. If the Rams come in here and smack us around, I could see him having issues.

But I do expect him to make it to next season. Whether that's good or bad...I lean towards bad.

Time to start winning again, Josh.

~G

GEM
11-23-2010, 03:54 PM
I think the plan for this season was to prop up the D with vets to keep the team respectable while the offense was being rebuilt with younger players. It should have worked, but I think that Martindale hasn't done his part in coaching what should be a solid, veteran defense to it's capability. Injuries have been a factor, for sure, but the defense is around 30th in the league statistically. It should be better than that.

When you say VETERAN, do you mean OLD? Because it's been Denver's M O for years to take guys that are on the backside of their prime years and hope to goodness that they still have something. Every freaking time, they've been proven wrong, but they keep doing it. You throw shit at the wall, it's still going to be shit.

Broncos Mtnman
11-23-2010, 03:56 PM
I heard Vic did say that McD would be here next year...because Bowlen won't pay 3 coaches.

Gary said he might not make it because the people are pissed. Vic told him there is no way McD is going anywhere....SOLELY because of the finance end for Bowlen.

A caller pointed out that the issues started with Jake/Jay. They agreed that initially that is where it started. They didn't go too much further into it as they took another call.

For the record, Vic also said Shanny wasn't going anywhere after the 2008 collapse because he was getting $7 million a year.

Lombardi isn't the "insider" that he wants you to think he is.

BigDaddyBronco
11-23-2010, 03:59 PM
Until Bowlen changes his business model or sells the team we will be like the Houston Texans of the league. There will be promising moves made where our offense will look good and their will be stars on the defense, but the ultimate product will fail to deliver any playoff games.

This happens because Bowlen doesn't want to have an NFL-caliber front office. You have to have good, experienced, football people as your team president, GM, scouting, HC, assistant coaches, etc. Bowlen tried to do a Shannahan replacement with a young McDaniels. I still think McDaniels could turn into a Shanny-type clone, but it still leaves us 8-8, because no one man can have all the power if you want to be successful.

So, I think all the McDaniels hate is a little misplaced. He can't succeed in Bowlen's system unless he is Superman. He isn't Superman, he is a flawed guy like all of us and he is doomed to fail. Bowlen has played a nice little game in robbing the Denver taxpayer and the Broncos faithful and keeping costs low by minimizing the front office. He is to blame.

GEM
11-23-2010, 04:00 PM
For the record, Vic also said Shanny wasn't going anywhere after the 2008 collapse because he was getting $7 million a year.

Lombardi isn't the "insider" that he wants you to think he is.

I really don't like the guy....because he tries to come off as a know it all. I happen to listen to him because I get sick of listening to Mike Greene having a goober fest over Sanchez and the Jets. :lol:

KCL
11-23-2010, 04:00 PM
When you say VETERAN, do you mean OLD? Because it's been Denver's M O for years to take guys that are on the backside of their prime years and hope to goodness that they still have something. Every freaking time, they've been proven wrong, but they keep doing it. You throw shit at the wall, it's still going to be shit.

KC did this under Carl Peterson..some worked out okay but it was that way for some years.

GEM
11-23-2010, 04:01 PM
Until Bowlen changes his business model or sells the team we will be like the Houston Texans of the league. There will be promising moves made where our offense will look good and their will be stars on the defense, but the ultimate product will fail to deliver any playoff games.

This happens because Bowlen doesn't want to have an NFL-caliber front office. You have to have good, experienced, football people as your team president, GM, scouting, HC, assistant coaches, etc. Bowlen tried to do a Shannahan replacement with a young McDaniels. I still think McDaniels could turn into a Shanny-type clone, but it still leaves us 8-8, because no one man can have all the power if you want to be successful.

So, I think all the McDaniels hate is a little misplaced. He can't succeed in Bowlen's system unless he is Superman. He isn't Superman, he is a flawed guy like all of us and he is doomed to fail. Bowlen has played a nice little game in robbing the Denver taxpayer and the Broncos faithful and keeping costs low by minimizing the front office. He is to blame.

You are correct. Even with a GM...McD wouldn't be all that good of a coach though. :shrugs:

robert ethan
11-23-2010, 04:01 PM
When you say VETERAN, do you mean OLD? Because it's been Denver's M O for years to take guys that are on the backside of their prime years and hope to goodness that they still have something. Every freaking time, they've been proven wrong, but they keep doing it. You throw shit at the wall, it's still going to be shit.

The oldest starters on the D are Dawkins, Bailey, and J. Williams, I believe. Those guys aren't "shit". DJ Williams and Haggan in the middle are both around 30. Goodman and Hill are serviceable at least. The biggest hole has probably been Cox in the backfield. Most teams seem to go straight after him. Other younger players like Moss, McBean, Smith, Fields, etc. have failed when given a chance.

BigDaddyBronco
11-23-2010, 04:05 PM
You are correct. Even with a GM...McD wouldn't be all that good of a coach though. :shrugs:

Take away some of his power and give him a real OC and DC, then we will see. The guy is basically the OC, QB coach, and HC as well as he is heavily involved in the GM duties. Shanny didn't do a great job as a HC/GM and he had 20 years of experience. What young, egocentric, talented HC wouldn't want to do everything? It's up to the organization/owner to decide what level of power the hand out. That is on Bowlen.

GEM
11-23-2010, 04:06 PM
The oldest starters on the D are Dawkins, Bailey, and J. Williams, I believe. Those guys aren't "shit". DJ Williams and Haggan in the middle are both around 30. Goodman and Hill are serviceable at least. The biggest hole has probably been Cox in the backfield. Most teams seem to go straight after him. Other younger players like Moss, McBean, Smith, Fields, etc. have failed when given a chance.

Bailey is beat numerous times a game anymore, Dawkins can't cover shit, and Jamal can't even clog the middle anymore. Haggan shouldn't even be a starter in this league, but when the rest of your LBer's are shit, he makes them look good. Goodman is decent and that's putting it nicely. Hill is a joke, he's a centerfielder. He stands there and hopes shit don't come his way...when was the last time you heard his name on a play?

Cox is a rookie, he gets some slide. Moss sucks, McBean, Vickerson, Fields all suck ass. Should we name anymore defensive players because we could go all the way down the line and still come up with jack shit for good players. DJ Williams can make tackles, but he don't scare nobody. Doom is the best we have. ONE defensive player that is worth holding onto. Bailey needs to be traded because we are paying for a CB who is past his prime. I love the guy, but not to the tune of the money he wants.

BigDaddyBronco
11-23-2010, 04:09 PM
Bailey is beat numerous times a game anymore, Dawkins can't cover shit, and Jamal can't even clog the middle anymore. Haggan shouldn't even be a starter in this league, but when the rest of your LBer's are shit, he makes them look good. Goodman is decent and that's putting it nicely. Hill is a joke, he's a centerfielder. He stands there and hopes shit don't come his way...when was the last time you heard his name on a play?

Cox is a rookie, he gets some slide. Moss sucks, McBean, Vickerson, Fields all suck ass. Should we name anymore defensive players because we could go all the way down the line and still come up with jack shit for good players.
On the flip side, you could go through a lot of NFL rosters and say the same thing. Truth be told, Shanny and McD did a horrible job of drafting for the defense for a decade and this is the result. Name the last drafted impact player on the DLine....Trevor Pryce who was drafted in 1998(?).

GEM
11-23-2010, 04:10 PM
On the flip side, you could go through a lot of NFL rosters and say the same thing. Truth be told, Shanny and McD did a horrible job of drafting for the defense for a decade and this is the result. Name the last drafted impact player on the DLine....Trevor Pryce who was drafted in 1998(?).

I don't give a shit about other teams. I love MY team and right now...they suck. And they have sucked on defense for about a decade.

G_Money
11-23-2010, 04:15 PM
Josh had his last GM (Goodman) fired, as well as the last DC (Nolan) who said boo to him. He hired his brother as the QB coach so that no one would interfere with him having complete say. His OC is that in name only, and I have no idea why he took the job other than to get out of Carolina before it all blew up (which is coming a year late down there).

What good front-office man is gonna come work with a guy who orchestrated his predecessor's firing within weeks of being hired? Since when is having a raving egomaniac under you that you didn't hire considered a good thing?

I agree with you, Bowlen is at fault. He should have remained committed to having a head coach and a GM, and not combining them.

But I can point out plenty of coaches who would have been happy to "just" be the head coach and hired coordinators while working for a GM.

Can you put the breaks on now? Can you tell McDaniels, "hey kid, I'm hiring you some better coordinators and a babysitter...I mean GM...so we can get past some of this nonsense and you can just coach."

The mistake has already been made, and I don't think you can close Pandora's box. With a new GM and a demoted McDaniels, either Josh chafes and leaves after achieving some success so he can go back to doing it "his way" and we still need a new coach, or it spirals down and the new front office man fires Josh to hire a guy he'd rather work with anyway.

Very few GMs work for a long period of time with a guy they didn't select. I wouldn't expect whomever we'd get to break the mold for Josh. He's not exactly a people person.

If we want a real front office - and I do - then it'd be hand-in-hand with a new coach - one selected by the new GM.

~G

BigDaddyBronco
11-23-2010, 04:17 PM
I don't give a shit about other teams. I love MY team and right now...they suck. And they have sucked on defense for about a decade.

The reason I bring up other teams is that for comparison you have to look at who is doing it right and who is doing it wrong and see where we don't stack up. Otherwise you turn into a shrill fanatic constantly complaining against every little thing, when all the other teams have basically the same problems.

I want my team to have a system and turn into the Colts, Ravens, Steelers, etc. where they are pretty decent year-to-year and occasionally when the big one. If the Steelers can do it financially, the Bowlen should be able to do the same thing with the Broncos. He choses not to, because he wants to make money. The problem is Mr. Bowlen.

turftoad
11-23-2010, 04:18 PM
I heard Vic did say that McD would be here next year...because Bowlen won't pay 3 coaches.

Gary said he might not make it because the people are pissed. Vic told him there is no way McD is going anywhere....SOLELY because of the finance end for Bowlen.

A caller pointed out that the issues started with Jake/Jay. They agreed that initially that is where it started. They didn't go too much further into it as they took another call.

I call BS on the Jake/Jay thing. That's utterly rediculous. Hell, how many freeking years ago was that? Nothing more than another convenient excuse

dogfish
11-23-2010, 04:20 PM
I think the plan for this season was to prop up the D with vets to keep the team respectable while the offense was being rebuilt with younger players. It should have worked, but I think that Martindale hasn't done his part in coaching what should be a solid, veteran, defense to it's capability. Injuries have been a factor, for sure, but the defense is around 30th in the league statistically. It should be better than that.

hey, maybe we should've kept nolan around. . . .

dogfish
11-23-2010, 04:21 PM
Nah, that system wont work with Dog, he brings nothing to the table. However Jugs for Plugs would work great if your there in person. :D

i see what you did there, assclown. . .



:laugh:

Northman
11-23-2010, 04:27 PM
i see what you did there, assclown. . .



:laugh:


I am not the droid you are looking for....:lol:

BigDaddyBronco
11-23-2010, 04:28 PM
Josh had his last GM (Goodman) fired, as well as the last DC (Nolan) who said boo to him. He hired his brother as the QB coach so that no one would interfere with him having complete say. His OC is that in name only, and I have no idea why he took the job other than to get out of Carolina before it all blew up (which is coming a year late down there).

What good front-office man is gonna come work with a guy who orchestrated his predecessor's firing within weeks of being hired? Since when is having a raving egomaniac under you that you didn't hire considered a good thing?

I agree with you, Bowlen is at fault. He should have remained committed to having a head coach and a GM, and not combining them.

But I can point out plenty of coaches who would have been happy to "just" be the head coach and hired coordinators while working for a GM.

Can you put the breaks on now? Can you tell McDaniels, "hey kid, I'm hiring you some better coordinators and a babysitter...I mean GM...so we can get past some of this nonsense and you can just coach."

The mistake has already been made, and I don't think you can close Pandora's box. With a new GM and a demoted McDaniels, either Josh chafes and leaves after achieving some success so he can go back to doing it "his way" and we still need a new coach, or it spirals down and the new front office man fires Josh to hire a guy he'd rather work with anyway.

Very few GMs work for a long period of time with a guy they didn't select. I wouldn't expect whomever we'd get to break the mold for Josh. He's not exactly a people person.

If we want a real front office - and I do - then it'd be hand-in-hand with a new coach - one selected by the new GM.

~G
No, I agree. You have to fire Josh if you want to set up a traditionally structured front office. My bone of contention, is that Bowlen doesn't want the traditional front office because it costs too much money and that if we are stuck in a "do loop" we might as well see what year 3 brings instead of going back to year 0. Is the next guy who comes in just the next young hot shot OC from some team like the Saints?

BroncoStud
11-23-2010, 04:28 PM
Bailey is beat numerous times a game anymore, Dawkins can't cover shit, and Jamal can't even clog the middle anymore. Haggan shouldn't even be a starter in this league, but when the rest of your LBer's are shit, he makes them look good. Goodman is decent and that's putting it nicely. Hill is a joke, he's a centerfielder. He stands there and hopes shit don't come his way...when was the last time you heard his name on a play?

Cox is a rookie, he gets some slide. Moss sucks, McBean, Vickerson, Fields all suck ass. Should we name anymore defensive players because we could go all the way down the line and still come up with jack shit for good players. DJ Williams can make tackles, but he don't scare nobody. Doom is the best we have. ONE defensive player that is worth holding onto. Bailey needs to be traded because we are paying for a CB who is past his prime. I love the guy, but not to the tune of the money he wants.

Man that's a bit harsh...

I think we have 4 legit starters to keep on the defense: Doom, Ayers, Bailey, DJ. I also like what I've seen from Mays, who is flying all over the field. Cox is playing OK, Goodman isn't... I think you can build a solid defense if you give Doom some help upfront, add a LBer to DJ/Mays, replace BOTH safeties... It would be even better if Champ moved to Free Safety though it isn't likely.

G_Money
11-23-2010, 04:37 PM
No, I agree. You have to fire Josh if you want to set up a traditionally structured front office. My bone of contention, is that Bowlen doesn't want the traditional front office because it costs too much money and that if we are stuck in a "do loop" we might as well see what year 3 brings instead of going back to year 0. Is the next guy who comes in just the next young hot shot OC from some team like the Saints?

I guess I can't see why Bowlen would have a problem paying 3 mil a year for a good GM and 3 mil a year for a hot shot OC when he paid 7 mil a year for Shanahan.

He was paying Mike to do the jobs of two people. Now if he refuses to take the extra 3 mil hit of firing Josh AND the additional sum of hiring a GM until Mike and Josh are one less year of financial pain to him, then yes, I agree with you.

I don't want to do this again. If hiring a real front office has to wait for Shanny and McD to not be as much of a financial drag then I guess we're stuck with Josh and hoping he works out in year 3.

If humiliation hurts Bowlen more than losing money does - and I think it does - then I don't think paying Josh and Mike and the new HC AND the incoming GM for a season or two is as much a burden as it might otherwise be.

~G

robert ethan
11-23-2010, 04:45 PM
hey, maybe we should've kept nolan around. . . .

Nolan left of his own accord, from what I understand. Perhaps he was appraised of the team's plan to prop up the D short term and focus on building a top offense and didn't want to be part of that.

turftoad
11-23-2010, 05:08 PM
Nolan left of his own accord, from what I understand. Perhaps he was appraised of the team's plan to prop up the D short term and focus on building a top offense and didn't want to be part of that.

i think McD pissed him off too, therefor he wanted to be gone.

Northman
11-23-2010, 05:10 PM
Nolan left of his own accord, from what I understand. Perhaps he was appraised of the team's plan to prop up the D short term and focus on building a top offense and didn't want to be part of that.

He left because McD was stepping on his toes trying to tell him how to run the defense when the guy knows what he is doing.

Tned
11-23-2010, 05:40 PM
Let's hope some don't trip and break a leg as they stumble over the I told you so's.

Well, I......

j/k

On to Dread's OP, he's pretty much dead on about the calm. I expected a lot worse this morning, but I think there is a little calm realization descending over Broncos fans.

Anyway, while I have been both a critic and supporter of McDaniels in the past (only a critic of some personnel moves), I do not think that it's time to replace the regime.

If I was in charge I would not have chosen to go the scorched earth approach to rebuilding, but once you commit to that route, I think you have to see it through.

G_Money
11-23-2010, 05:45 PM
What North said. He wanted to coach the defense one way, McDaniels told him not to do that and to do it another way, they had friction, and by the end of the year Nolan was granted his leave and left to Miami.

Now, originally the word was that they both "just had better options." Schefter pushed that, and while that might have been a reason to go their separate ways at that point it wasn't the cause of the disagreement. And as I remember it that was when we thought Dean Pees was coming here. I find it very interesting that neither Capers nor Pees, both of whom worked with McDaniels, wanted anything to do with working FOR him.

Here's a link if you want one: (http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_15205066?source=rss&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+dp-sports-broncos+%28Denver+Post%3A+Sports%3A+Broncos%29)


Has McDaniels said publically why Mike Nolan was fired? But even more to the point, why Don Martindale was given the defensive coordinator position? Did McDaniels see something special with Wink?
--Mark, Honolulu

As I was told by several players, the beginning of the end for Nolan was the Indianapolis Colts' game — the 13th of the season. To review, the Broncos carried an 8-4 record into that game, having won their last two. McDaniels won the coin toss, deferred, and then Peyton Manning put the Colts up 21-0 after three possessions.

During that 21-0 blitzkrieg, Nolan called some plays — particularly the run-blitz — that McDaniels didn't like. The hostile way McDaniels handled that communication breakdown was not well-received by Nolan. A month and four consecutive losses later, Nolan and McDaniels mutually agreed to part ways, without much comment.

In Martindale, McDaniels figures to have a more obedient defensive coordinator without losing much aggressiveness. Martindale's background, after all, is rooted in the Buddy-Rex-Rob Ryan defensive school of attack, attack, attack.

Far more important than the switch of defensive coordinators, however, is the Broncos' new set of defensive linemen. The front three additions of nose tackle Jamal Williams and five-technique defensive ends Justin Bannan and Jarvis Green is why Denver's D this season should be improved from the way it finished in 2009.

Leaving that last bit in there for fun. :salute:

It wasn't a situation of just wanting to go to Miami. Nolan happens to love Denver. Did when he was on Reeves' staff, does now.

It just wasn't the work environment he thought he was signing up for. If my head coach was demanding I stop blitzing even though blitzing is the only thing the personnel was good at, I'd be pretty cheesed off about it too.

~G

Northman
11-23-2010, 05:51 PM
What North said. He wanted to coach the defense one way, McDaniels told him not to do that and to do it another way, they had friction, and by the end of the year Nolan was granted his leave and left to Miami.

Now, originally the word was that they both "just had better options." Schefter pushed that, and while that might have been a reason to go their separate ways at that point it wasn't the cause of the disagreement. And as I remember it that was when we thought Dean Pees was coming here. I find it very interesting that neither Capers nor Pees, both of whom worked with McDaniels, wanted anything to do with working FOR him.

Here's a link if you want one: (http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_15205066?source=rss&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+dp-sports-broncos+%28Denver+Post%3A+Sports%3A+Broncos%29)



Leaving that last bit in there for fun. :salute:

It wasn't a situation of just wanting to go to Miami. Nolan happens to love Denver. Did when he was on Reeves' staff, does now.

It just wasn't the work environment he thought he was signing up for. If my head coach was demanding I stop blitzing even though blitzing is the only thing the personnel was good at, I'd be pretty cheesed off about it too.

~G


Yep.

G_Money
11-23-2010, 05:52 PM
If I was in charge I would not have chosen to go the scorched earth approach to rebuilding, but once you commit to that route, I think you have to see it through.

No you don't. You CAN...but you don't have to. You only follow it through if you believe the plan is working.

If you don't believe in the personnel decisions being made, then you don't give that person the chance to mess up more drafts.

If you don't believe in the coaches or schemes, then you don't wait for the right players to match those schemes, because it won't matter anyway.

I expect Bowlen to wait. To see what year 3 will bring in terms of improved defense and some sort of running game.

But if we lose a few more ugly games and he decided he'd seen enough, I would not be shocked.

Scorched earth doesn't mean any rebuilding is actually happening. We have to actually build something instead of just swirling dust around in pretty patterns.

~G

BroncoStud
11-23-2010, 05:59 PM
Denver was 8-8 with a young and talented offense. Stay the course with the offense, grow it, perfect it, and address the defense through the draft and suddenly 8-8 could look like 10-6 and the playoffs.

What happened here in Denver should be criminal. How would this starting lineup look...

QB - Jay Cutler
RB - Peyton Hillis/Ryan Torrain
WR - Brandon Marshall/Brandon Lloyd/Eddie Royal
TE - Scheffler/Graham
OL - Pretty much the same but keep Wiegmann

Use the draft to shore up the defense, go younger at safety, add a LBer, go young on the defensive line...

The offense alone would have been enough to win 8 games in shootouts, improving the defense 5-6 spots in the rankings and Denver might be sitting with a 4 game lead in the division right now.

GEM
11-23-2010, 06:09 PM
Denver was 8-8 with a young and talented offense. Stay the course with the offense, grow it, perfect it, and address the defense through the draft and suddenly 8-8 could look like 10-6 and the playoffs.

What happened here in Denver should be criminal. How would this starting lineup look...

QB - Jay Cutler
RB - Peyton Hillis/Ryan Torrain
WR - Brandon Marshall/Brandon Lloyd/Eddie Royal
TE - Scheffler/Graham
OL - Pretty much the same but keep Wiegmann

Use the draft to shore up the defense, go younger at safety, add a LBer, go young on the defensive line...

The offense alone would have been enough to win 8 games in shootouts, improving the defense 5-6 spots in the rankings and Denver might be sitting with a 4 game lead in the division right now.

Put Walton in at C instead of Wiegman. I liked him, but we needed some youth there. Or.....even better...put Pouncey there. Or Iaputi in instead of Hamilton and keep Wiegman. Ugh the possibilities are endless. :lol:

Tned
11-23-2010, 06:12 PM
No you don't. You CAN...but you don't have to. You only follow it through if you believe the plan is working.

If you don't believe in the personnel decisions being made, then you don't give that person the chance to mess up more drafts.

If you don't believe in the coaches or schemes, then you don't wait for the right players to match those schemes, because it won't matter anyway.

I expect Bowlen to wait. To see what year 3 will bring in terms of improved defense and some sort of running game.

But if we lose a few more ugly games and he decided he'd seen enough, I would not be shocked.

Scorched earth doesn't mean any rebuilding is actually happening. We have to actually build something instead of just swirling dust around in pretty patterns.

~G

Agreed. Your clarification is correct. Seeing it through should only be done if Ellis/Bowlen have heard and believe there is a valid plan in place to come out the other side a better team then before the napalm hit the roster.

rationalfan
11-23-2010, 07:16 PM
The more I thought about it though, the more it made sense. For so many of us hardcore fans what more is there to say? Most (though not quite all) are now sick and tired of the Ellis/Xanders/McDaniels regime.

thanks for speaking for broncos nation. too bad you're about as accurate as a politician. i think you do have a point, but you've got qualify it; most of the broncos fans WHO LIVE ON MESSAGE BOARDS are tired of this regime. but those people were also tired of the shanahan regime. and if bowlen fired mcd tomorrow and hired cowher by friday the same crowd of fans would be screaming for cowher's head by dec. 28.

some people simply like controversy. it, oddly, comforts them. just the way it is.

Dreadnought
11-23-2010, 07:27 PM
thanks for speaking for broncos nation. too bad you're about as accurate as a politician. i think you do have a point, but you've got qualify it; most of the broncos fans WHO LIVE ON MESSAGE BOARDS are tired of this regime. but those people were also tired of the shanahan regime. and if bowlen fired mcd tomorrow and hired cowher by friday the same crowd of fans would be screaming for cowher's head by dec. 28.

some people simply like controversy. it, oddly, comforts them. just the way it is.

I never claimed to speak for Bronco nation - note that I said (as you quoted yourself) "many of us hardcore fans" - a statement which I will cheerfully stand by. If you can find me any measurable number of committed fans to this team who are stoked with the direction the McDaniels regime has us headed then you might have a valid criticism. As it stands, well, not so much.

dogfish
11-23-2010, 07:29 PM
thanks for speaking for broncos nation. too bad you're about as accurate as a politician. i think you do have a point, but you've got qualify it; most of the broncos fans WHO LIVE ON MESSAGE BOARDS are tired of this regime. but those people were also tired of the shanahan regime. and if bowlen fired mcd tomorrow and hired cowher by friday the same crowd of fans would be screaming for cowher's head by dec. 28.

some people simply like controversy. it, oddly, comforts them. just the way it is.

yea, good point. . . i'm sure all the fans who don't bother to frequent message boards are thrilled with being in last place. . .





:rolleyes:

dogfish
11-23-2010, 07:30 PM
I never claimed to speak for Bronco nation - note that I said (as you quoted yourself) "many of us hardcore fans" - a statement which I will cheerfully stand by. If you can find me any measurable number of committed fans to this team who are stoked with the direction the McDaniels regime has us headed then you might have a valid criticism. As it stands, well, not so much.

silent majority, dread-- as always, those guys are on board. . .

Dreadnought
11-23-2010, 07:31 PM
silent majority, dread-- as always, those guys are on board. . .

Bigger. Faster. Smarter. Tougher. Isn't that it? Did I miss one?

robert ethan
11-23-2010, 07:38 PM
Denver was 8-8 with a young and talented offense. Stay the course with the offense, grow it, perfect it, and address the defense through the draft and suddenly 8-8 could look like 10-6 and the playoffs.

What happened here in Denver should be criminal. How would this starting lineup look...

QB - Jay Cutler
RB - Peyton Hillis/Ryan Torrain
WR - Brandon Marshall/Brandon Lloyd/Eddie Royal
TE - Scheffler/Graham
OL - Pretty much the same but keep Wiegmann

Use the draft to shore up the defense, go younger at safety, add a LBer, go young on the defensive line...

The offense alone would have been enough to win 8 games in shootouts, improving the defense 5-6 spots in the rankings and Denver might be sitting with a 4 game lead in the division right now.

How would it look?

Well, lets take this week of play to compare. Neckbeard got more yards and better passer rating than Neckblubber. No Show had more rushing yards and better ypc average than Over The Hillis. Bwahhhhhh!ndon Marshall ****ed up so badly he had to issue a public apology to the fans. Then he got hurt.
Shuffler had a grand total of 1 catch. So did Grampa Graham.:lol:

Lancane
11-23-2010, 07:39 PM
thanks for speaking for broncos nation. too bad you're about as accurate as a politician. i think you do have a point, but you've got qualify it; most of the broncos fans WHO LIVE ON MESSAGE BOARDS are tired of this regime. but those people were also tired of the shanahan regime. and if bowlen fired mcd tomorrow and hired cowher by friday the same crowd of fans would be screaming for cowher's head by dec. 28.

some people simply like controversy. it, oddly, comforts them. just the way it is.

No, he's speaking for the majority of fans that have piped up and spoken out; read any message board or fan post whether it's sponsored by ESPN, Denver Post, NFL, Fan Sites or other, even the F'n PFT, the dissension is everywhere and the majority of the fans have spoken...McDaniels has very few supporters remaining. I belong to several of those sites, and I read posts by many other fans...even other teams' fans are in disbelief that this idiot coach still has a job.

It's a balancing act, like politics...the majority will always be the controlling party of any outcome; Shanahan was still supported by the major percentage of the fanbase until mid-season of the 2008 season, that's when you began to see more and more changing. Yes, his philosophy had become stale, we all admit that! But look at the Cutler - Plummer issue that plagued the fans not too long ago, the majority supported Plummer until it was evident that he was playing like crap and boom, Cutler becomes the fan favorite and then he replaces Plummer. You might not think fans have that much power, but we have more then you give us credit for...look at the fansaround the league that have thrown snow and trash or have even heckled coaches and players. You don't think the Board of Directors isn't aware that reporters are noticing the unrest? Or that none read sports informative boards? Or hearing the boos and shouts of change? They'd be blind not to see what the world is screaming.

Tned
11-23-2010, 07:39 PM
Bigger. Faster. Smarter. Tougher. Isn't that it? Did I miss one?

There's a Hillis crack in here somewhere...

Dreadnought
11-23-2010, 07:43 PM
There's a Hillis crack in here somewhere...

All topics eventually lead to Hillis, T. The word "Hillis" will be to McDaniels what "Rosebud" was to Charles Foster Kane :D

robert ethan
11-23-2010, 07:46 PM
Cleveland is riding that rented Arkansas mule so hard it won't get up anymore. No matter how hard they flog it.

Lancane
11-23-2010, 07:50 PM
Cleveland is riding that rented Arkansas mule so hard it won't get up anymore. No matter how hard they flog it.

Funny, because he's already on pace to nab a 1,000 yards this season and our backs will be lucky to reach the 700 mark, combined.

:lol:

Tned
11-23-2010, 07:53 PM
Funny, because he's already on pace to nab a 1,000 yards this season and our backs will be lucky to reach the 700 mark, combined.

:lol:

Not to mention his 9 or 10 TDs and the fact he could very well hit 2,000 yards from scrimmage.

atwater27
11-23-2010, 08:28 PM
I guess the main problem I have (or had) with folks on the site was the blind fierce allegiance to the new regime, as if one should march to their beat or be trampled. They seemed to me like soldiers or automatons that dare not question the new leadership. For me, trust and admiration have to be earned as a Bronco. Now, this trust can be earned rather quickly, like say in a season. I was cautiously optimistic about McDaniels until I saw him rip apart the roster almost immediately like the incredible hulk rips up a phone book. Then I stood in (bad) awe at how the drafts were handled.
I wanted to see him turn the team around, but when I saw how he was going to do it, I did not want to support him. I will be the same with the next coach; cautiously optimistic.

Tned
11-23-2010, 08:34 PM
I guess the main problem I have (or had) with folks on the site was the blind fierce allegiance to the new regime, as if one should march to their beat or be trampled. They seemed to me like soldiers or automatons that dare not question the new leadership. For me, trust and admiration have to be earned as a Bronco. Now, this trust can be earned rather quickly, like say in a season. I was cautiously optimistic about McDaniels until I saw him rip apart the roster almost immediately like the incredible hulk rips up a phone book. Then I stood in (bad) awe at how the drafts were handled.
I wanted to see him turn the team around, but when I saw how he was going to do it, I did not want to support him. I will be the same with the next coach; cautiously optimistic.

And the ferocity with which they attacked anyone that questioned any of the moves made. Contrary to their dispersions, I don't hate McDaniels, and I don't even believe he should be fired right now. However, I do believe some of his moves were very questionable and probably mistakes.

HORSEPOWER 56
11-23-2010, 08:41 PM
Every year that we give McDaniels to gain OJT and experiment with this team in hopes that he can turn it around is one year longer until we can actually fix what's broken and be competitive. Josh is NOT going to change. He's had 22 months with pretty much sole control of this franchise and all that has happened is that we've gotten worse.

Lots of folks think this team is somehow better personnel wise than it was before. The proof is in the pudding and we are no where near better in any regard than we were. Some folks think we need to wait it out and give it more time with the current regime for some type of turnaround. I must disagree. Rome wasn't built in a day, but his isn't Rome, this is a pro football team. Almost every team that has had a coaching overhaul in the past 3 years is better today than they were. Even if they aren't winning a ton of games, like Detroit and Cleveland, they are at least competitive and have given their fans something to cheer for. All we've done is decline and breed dissent among the fanbase and the locker room.

In January of 2009 we were an 8-8 football team. Major changes were made and we remained 8-8 last year. Many thought that with the large amount of turnover that the 8-8 we witnessed last year was promising and that we'd only improve this year. Unfortunately, somehow the energy, unpredictability, and excitement that the team showed early last year faded rapidly by mid-season and we've become a predictable, uninspired, undisciplined mess that is 5-15 in our last 20 games.

The fault lies directly at the top and the only way to rectify this situation in my opinion is to scrap it and start over. Josh McDaniels is not Bill Bellichick just as Charlie Weiss, Romeo Crennel, and Eric Mangini aren't either. Just as Gary Kubiak isn't Mike Shanahan and George Seifert isn't Bill Walsh. Being part of a "coaching tree" guarantees success as much as being a programmer at microsoft guarantees that you'll be the next Bill Gates. We were hoping to steal some of the NE fireworks and all we got was a dud.

I have zero hope left that McDaniels can actually turn this into a productive franchise. I'll always love and support my team, but the pride I've always felt in my team has taken a huge hit of late and I've lost confidence in its leadership.

topscribe
11-23-2010, 08:44 PM
I am going to need a new pair of "fat jeans".

I just hope you wear them all the way up . . .

-----

topscribe
11-23-2010, 08:46 PM
There's a Hillis crack in here somewhere...

I was pissed when he was traded, and now I'm livid . . . :mad:

-----

Tned
11-23-2010, 08:51 PM
I was pissed when he was traded, and now I'm livid . . . :mad:

-----

I'll try not to derail the "peace" thread, but it's kind of on topic.

I was VERY dissapointed when Hillis was traded, but I understood the logic behind it. We needed a backup QB, and even one to compete in TC for the starting job. Hillis was not going to be used by McDaniels (that I was unhappy about in '09), so therefore the trade made a lot of sense.

Obviously, now the trade and refusal to play him last year looks really bad, but the trade itself made sense when you look at all the factors. I don't like it, but I understand it.

robert ethan
11-23-2010, 09:01 PM
I'll try not to derail the "peace" thread, but it's kind of on topic.

I was VERY dissapointed when Hillis was traded, but I understood the logic behind it. We needed a backup QB, and even one to compete in TC for the starting job. Hillis was not going to be used by McDaniels (that I was unhappy about in '09), so therefore the trade made a lot of sense.

Obviously, now the trade and refusal to play him last year looks really bad, but the trade itself made sense when you look at all the factors. I don't like it, but I understand it.

It didn't seem to me that the Hillis trade was regarded as a huge move at the time. Imagine if Cutler had Orton's numbers this year and vica versa. Or if Marshall was leading the league in receiving yards like Lloyd, rather than just peeing everyone off and injured.

shank
11-23-2010, 09:02 PM
It didn't seem to me that the Hillis trade was regarded as a huge move at the time. Imagine if Cutler had Orton's numbers this year and vica versa. Or if Marshall was leading the league in receiving yards like Lloyd, rather than just peeing everyone off and injured.

lloyd wouldn't be leading the league in yards if McD refused to play him...

robert ethan
11-23-2010, 09:16 PM
lloyd wouldn't be leading the league in yards if McD refused to play him...

But you're picking through Josh's deals for the one that hasn't worked out (so far) and trying to hang him with it. The past couple of games, Moreno has gained more yards than Hillis. Over the past two weeks, Moreno has picked up 165 yards on 35 carries. Hillis has picked up 130 yards on 40 carries.

Quinn is still a potential starter, despite appearances. It looks unlikely to happen in Denver, but there are teams out there who scouted him in 2007 and remember his potential, who may be desperate for help at the position next season. I think that those teams are also cognizant of the fact that Brady hasn't been a complainer or any sort of a problem, despite the fact that things haven't gone his way in intervening years. Like Orton, Quinn appears to be the personality type who can help a team as a starter, backup, transitional figure, or simply wearing a headset and carrying a clipboard on the sideline. Versatility, humility, and team values are big factors when teams make a deal.

Tned
11-23-2010, 09:41 PM
But you're picking through Josh's deals for the one that hasn't worked out (so far) and trying to hang him with it. The past couple of games, Moreno has gained more yards than Hillis. Over the past two weeks, Moreno has picked up 165 yards on 35 carries. Hillis has picked up 130 yards on 40 carries.

Quinn is still a potential starter, despite appearances. It looks unlikely to happen in Denver, but there are teams out there who scouted him in 2007 and remember his potential, who may be desperate for help at the position next season. I think that those teams are also cognizant of the fact that Brady hasn't been a complainer or any sort of a problem, despite the fact that things haven't gone his way in intervening years. Like Orton, Quinn appears to be the personality type who can help a team as a starter, backup, transitional figure, or simply wearing a headset and carrying a clipboard on the sideline. Versatility, humility, and team values are big factors when teams make a deal.

And you're cherry picking Hillis/Moreno comparisons.

As to the trades. Which ones worked out?


A. Smith for a first round pick?
A. Smith for a TE picked with a 6th round pick (or something like that).
Two thirds for Quinn?
A fourth for Maroney?
Hillis and two 6th's for B. Quinn?


Then, we get into the actual arguable ones in Cutler, Marshall and Scheffler, which will likely take a few years before we can fairly evaluate.

robert ethan
11-23-2010, 10:50 PM
So the trades involving the guys in their late 20s who were drafted 5 or 6 years ago will "take a few years to assess", while those involving 2010 draft picks or guys with 1 or 2 years in the league can be judged immediately.

O.K.

Tned
11-23-2010, 11:07 PM
So the trades involving the guys in their late 20s who were drafted 5 or 6 years ago will "take a few years to assess", while those involving 2010 draft picks or guys with 1 or 2 years in the league can be judged immediately.

O.K.

First, which guys were traded that were drafted 5-6 years ago?

Second, do you REALLY want to argue that trading a first for Smith was a good trade?

robert ethan
11-23-2010, 11:10 PM
Uuuhh...how about, Cutler, Orton, Marshall, Scheffler? All of them have been in the league at least 5 years. All are in their late 20s. As is Brandon Lloyd, who replaced Marshall substantially.

BroncoStud
11-23-2010, 11:16 PM
Uuuhh...how about, Cutler, Orton, Marshall, Scheffler? All of them have been in the league at least 5 years. All are in their late 20s. As is Brandon Lloyd, who replaced Marshall substantially.

Cutler > Orton - IMO. Regardless of what happened it would have been fun to see what Cutler could accomplish in this system.

Scheffler - He wasn't a major contributor and he was often hurt, I don't see the big deal there.

Lloyd > Marshall - Marshall has all the talent in the world but he's a headcase. All Lloyd does is make great catches, burn the defense, and keep quiet. Great pick up.

A. Smith - Bad trade with Seattle, very bad. But still, Smith may be intercepting passes, and don't forget he plays in a great defensive system that is designed to force turnovers, but he isn't a great CB. He gets beat in coverage quite a bit.

Hillis > Quinn - This is simply a bad trade because Hillis is such a balanced RB and produces regardless of what is asked of him. Quinn looked awful in preseason and is already behind Tebow on the depth chart, that isn't a good thing for a guy who was a 1st round draft pick and has some on-field experience in the NFL. I was surprised as to how bad he really looked in preseason.

Still, don't forget the horrible draft classes Shanahan put us through. Maurice Clarrett, Marcus Nash, and so many others.

Tned
11-23-2010, 11:19 PM
Uuuhh...how about, Cutler, Orton, Marshall, Scheffler? All of them have been in the league at least 5 years. All are in their late 20s. As is Brandon Lloyd, who replaced Marshall substantially.

They were drafted 4 1/2 years ago. Not 5-6 years ago.

As to Lloyd, he's in his 8th year, and on his fourth team, after being inactive 14 games last season, and is in no way tied to Marshall's trade other than he's having the first great season of his career.

topscribe
11-23-2010, 11:20 PM
Uuuhh...how about, Cutler, Orton, Marshall, Scheffler? All of them have been in the league at least 5 years. All are in their late 20s. As is Brandon Lloyd, who replaced Marshall substantially.

It appears Denver did all right with the deals involving Cutler, Marshall, and
Scheffler. But I also believe Tned was spot on regarding the other trades.
That would still leave the majority of personnel moves with somewhat of a
putrid smell. All teams, of course, have a bad draft selection or trade once in
a while, but here we're talking about the majority of them . . .

-----

CHARLIEADAMSFAN
11-23-2010, 11:30 PM
I mean I just watched that trainwreck and part of me just had to laugh at myself for thinking we could make a strong second half push. I've been skeptical about McD from the start but have always done my best to try to give him the benefit of the doubt. I think last night I kind of lost all faith. Maybe I'll come around again, but I think the ship has finally sank in my books. I don't know if I can get myself to believe in McD's regime again. I hope I can, because he is our coach, but man I don't know why, but last night, just kind of knocked the life out of me as a fan in some senses. I'll still love and support the Broncos don't get me wrong, but I mean it's just hard to watch

robert ethan
11-23-2010, 11:32 PM
They were drafted 4 1/2 years ago. Not 5-6 years ago.

As to Lloyd, he's in his 8th year, and on his fourth team, after being inactive 14 games last season, and is in no way tied to Marshall's trade other than he's having the first great season of his career.

Call it 4 1/2 if you want, but these guys are all in the prime of their career and what you see is what you get from them. So, you can make a reasonable assessment of the trades involving them. But for the younger guys who are just in their first or second year, there is a lot more room for change.

dogfish
11-24-2010, 01:57 AM
But you're picking through Josh's deals for the one that hasn't worked out (so far) and trying to hang him with it. The past couple of games, Moreno has gained more yards than Hillis. Over the past two weeks, Moreno has picked up 165 yards on 35 carries. Hillis has picked up 130 yards on 40 carries.

i like how you accuse him of cherry-picking and then immediately turn around and compare moreno and hillis over a two-game span. . . that was sly. . . :lol:


Quinn is still a potential starter, despite appearances. It looks unlikely to happen in Denver, but there are teams out there who scouted him in 2007 and remember his potential, who may be desperate for help at the position next season.

where were those teams last offseason when the browns were trying to give him away for pennies on the dollar? i really doubt sitting on our bench for a year (and getting passed on the depth chart by a project rookie) has exactly increased his "value". . .

robert ethan
11-24-2010, 03:20 AM
i like how you accuse him of cherry-picking and then immediately turn around and compare moreno and hillis over a two-game span. . . that was sly. . . :lol:

Only to show that you can't judge a trade over a few games. Earlier in the year, Hillis was trumped as being better than all the Bronco RB combined.

where were those teams last offseason when the browns were trying to give him away for pennies on the dollar? i really doubt sitting on our bench for a year (and getting passed on the depth chart by a project rookie) has exactly increased his "value". . .

So now Hillis is "pennies" to Quinn's "dollars"? I wish you guys would make up your minds. Not to mention the draft picks that went Cleveland's way along with what amounts to their entire offense at the moment.

dogfish
11-24-2010, 03:39 AM
So now Hillis is "pennies" to Quinn's "dollars"? I wish you guys would make up your minds. Not to mention the draft picks that went Cleveland's way along with what amounts to their entire offense at the moment.

never once said hillis was pennies on the dollar-- i said that's what they were shopping quinn for, not that it's what they got. . . they hit the once in a lifetime lottery by getting a really good player in return. . .

GEM
11-24-2010, 10:07 AM
And the ferocity with which they attacked anyone that questioned any of the moves made. Contrary to their dispersions, I don't hate McDaniels, and I don't even believe he should be fired right now. However, I do believe some of his moves were very questionable and probably mistakes.

Alright guys, let's not turn this into another us vs. them fight. Ya'll fought just as fiercely attacking McD.

It takes some people longer than others, it compiles back to how we view loyalty. Some are blindly loyal, some are much tougher on loyalty needs to be earned. Some still don't have issues with the regime and that is their God given right and perfectly within the rules established here and in fact encouraged here.

When statements like that are made, the other side feels attacked and it's not coercive to positive interactions. So, let's leave the us vs. them at the door and understand that everyone feels the way they do for a reason, some have to come to their own conclusion in their own time and realize we shouldn't throw rocks at glass houses.

GEM
11-24-2010, 10:14 AM
But you're picking through Josh's deals for the one that hasn't worked out (so far) and trying to hang him with it. The past couple of games, Moreno has gained more yards than Hillis. Over the past two weeks, Moreno has picked up 165 yards on 35 carries. Hillis has picked up 130 yards on 40 carries.

Quinn is still a potential starter, despite appearances. It looks unlikely to happen in Denver, but there are teams out there who scouted him in 2007 and remember his potential, who may be desperate for help at the position next season. I think that those teams are also cognizant of the fact that Brady hasn't been a complainer or any sort of a problem, despite the fact that things haven't gone his way in intervening years. Like Orton, Quinn appears to be the personality type who can help a team as a starter, backup, transitional figure, or simply wearing a headset and carrying a clipboard on the sideline. Versatility, humility, and team values are big factors when teams make a deal.

You can't pick Moreno's two best weeks and put that up against Hillis. You need to look at the big picture. Hillis in the overall season has kicked Moreno's ass in every way imaginable. Moreno was hurt you say....with HAMSTRING issues....the biggest reason for hamstring issues, you don't take care of your body. Ever watched Moreno on the sideline after a 2 yd run? He's huffing and puffing like Hester after setting the record for a 108 yd return. It's laughable. 1st round draft pick and the kid is out of shape and not able to breathe after 2 freaking yards.

Talent is also a big deal and we seem to come up on the short end of the stick quite often the last couple of years.

Quinn is crap and has been since the day he dropped 10+ spots over where he was forecast. NO ONE would give up shit for the kid. 2 teams in what 3-4 years? I don't look at that and say oooooh! I look at that and say wtf is he doing holding up a roster spot.

BroncoNut
11-24-2010, 10:27 AM
way to go Dread. you just set the stage for an all out brawl among fans with this thread. Take your warm fuzzy feeling of "peace" and shove it up your ass

Dreadnought
11-24-2010, 10:39 AM
way to go Dread. you just set the stage for an all out brawl among fans with this thread. Take your warm fuzzy feeling of "peace" and shove it up your ass

Hey Nut? Happy ******* Thanksgiving to you too, pal. Remember where I said all those mean things certain other unnamed people said about you were a load of crap? I was wrong.

How do ya like them apples?

TXBRONC
11-24-2010, 10:54 AM
Hey Nut? Happy ******* Thanksgiving to you too, pal. Remember where I said all those mean things certain other unnamed people said about you were a load of crap? I was wrong.

How do ya like them apples?

Back to the feeling of peace.

Happy Thanksgiving Dread! :salute:

And Happy Thanksgiving everyone else. I MEAN IT!
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

GEM
11-24-2010, 11:07 AM
Yep, Happy Thanksgiving everyone! I thankful for all of you fartknockers!

topscribe
11-24-2010, 11:23 AM
McD will ONLY be here next season because at that point Bowlen would have 3 coaches on the payroll. It's not of his own merit, because at some point, keeping McD is going to affect Bowlen's general ledger. People will stop buying the product if the company puts a terrible product on the market too long.

It did start when Jake got benched for Cutler.....but that was part of why Shanny got canned. This regime is separate from that issue. It was supposed to get better. We were told that we weren't rebuilding, which if you had a brain in the world, you'd know was bullshit. This team is rebuilding, they should have just said so....but because they didn't they have people's expectations set high. Then to see this product....there's no way to be behind them. At least not the coach.

This team didn't need a complete overhaul...but after McD did what he did, it did. No, when he got here we didn't need a rebuild, we needed a fine tune. Now this team is trashed. There is no other way to put it. Completely defunct of talent, defunct of heart and defunct of pride. Now we are at the bottom of the heap and need a build up from the ground up. As we've seen with McD's drafts...he will not be able to do so. I dread April's draft if McD is left in charge of it.

Carol, I haven't turned my back on the Broncos, I still love this team as dearly as I did last week, last year, last decade and since the day I became a fan....but my expectations are high for this team. I want a team to be proud of. I can't be proud of a team that quits and they effing quit last night. I can't be proud of sitting at home with my stomach in knots over a team, while the players on that team are laughing and joking on the sideline. So I'll continue to root for them, I'll continue to watch, but I won't spend my money on gear, I won't buy tickets and I'll hit Mr. Bowlen in the wallet...because maybe if he sees his dollars dwindling, he'll realize that change is necessary.

Some good points, but I don't believe the team is "completely defunct of
talent." Look at the O-line: Clady, Harris, Kuper, and now the rookies are
beginning to show theirs. There was a time this year, as you know, when
all three of the veterans were recovering from injuries during the same
time. They probably need to add some depth, but that starting five may be
among the most talented in the league.

The WRs are oozing with talent. And I believe the QB position is, too. At
RB, Moreno has plenty of talent, if he can stay healthy. But they apparently
need depth there, too, unless Lance Ball shows he was good enough to
salvage from the PS.

TE needs a lot of help. That's for sure.

At LB, the Broncos have a solid core with D.J., Ayers, and Dumervil. The
others have been developing (maybe a bit too slowly, but still developing)
into a solid supporting cast.

The defensive backfield has some age, but Cox, McBath, and Burton all
appear to be worthy successors.

The D-line needs help, IMO, a lot of it. But that was a particularly weak
position under Shanny's charge, too.

Overall, I don't believe talent is the major problem . . . oh yes, there are
some problem areas, but that's the case with about every team. I believe
the problem has been injuries and discipline.

And Champ brought out another aspect that has been bothering him:
tackling. If Wink does anything in the next camp, he should run some basic
tackling drills - it would be back to high school until they got it down, IMO.

What is different between this regime and the previous one is in the W-L
column. And that is the bottom line: I understand that. But I don't believe
it is because there is so much less talent than before: I remember how
people were screaming about the lack of talent back then.

Two events took place, IMO, that started the Broncos' downslide in 2006:
The career-ending injury to Al Wilson and replacing Jake with Jay before
Jay was ready (are you listening, Tebow fans?).

But that has nothing to do with now, of course. Before the regular season
began, I predicted the Broncos would have their problems before the bye
and lose a lot of games. I also predicted they would begin to get it
together afterward. They showed signs of that against KC. They had their
helmets handed to them at SD, of course, but I saw that coming, too. It
was at SD.

If we just hang on, I believe the Broncos will have a winning record for this
last half of the season. I may be wrong, of course, but now the O-line is
coming together, the running game is showing some signs of life, and they
seem to be more interested in defending the run.

Of course, the pass rush (what pass rush?) is still problematic, and that
concerns me a bunch. But if they can get Ayers back on the field, then
maybe we can see just a little improvement there, too.

I may be all wet in this. But you have to get wet to get clean. :D

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T.K.O.
11-24-2010, 11:24 AM
fartknockers.....:laugh:
that helps,i needed a laugh:D
there is something to be said about the "strange peace" (or strange piece for that matter)
i actually have prefferred the early struggle this year to the total collapses of the previous 2 seasons.
at least we all were'nt thinking superbowl or that we were a shoe in to win the west.
it's sounds strange but it's true for me at least.
now we can see what the team does with what's left of the season.
if they continue to get blown out and look like they quit,bowlen will have to decide if he wants to continue the mcD project.
the only way i see him staying on is if the team rallies behind him and plays hard down the stretch.
otherwise i see no real reason to believe the players are buying into his plan.
i still believe he could get the job done with the right personel,but can HE put the right guys on the field?
that has become the bigger question:salute:

topscribe
11-24-2010, 11:26 AM
Yep, Happy Thanksgiving everyone! I thankful for all of you fartknockers!

Fartknocker! :lol: One of my daughter's favorite terms.

This is the first I've heard it elsewhere . . . http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh256/AZDynamics/Smilies/thdrink.gif

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Nomad
11-24-2010, 11:36 AM
Back to the feeling of peace.

Happy Thanksgiving Dread! :salute:

And Happy Thanksgiving everyone else. I MEAN IT!
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

Same here!!


It looks more like Christmas around here than Thanksgiving.....I don't like snow on Thanksgiving!!

T.K.O.
11-24-2010, 11:37 AM
Same here!!


It looks more like Christmas around here than Thanksgiving.....I don't like snow on Thanksgiving!!

-7 in montana this morning......feels more like january than turkey time:mad:

Nomad
11-24-2010, 11:39 AM
-7 in montana this morning......feels more like january than turkey time:mad:

Pretty much screwed the bird hunting around here!!

T.K.O.
11-24-2010, 11:47 AM
Pretty much screwed the bird hunting around here!!

you wouldnt have time to thaw them even if you got one:laugh:

topscribe
11-24-2010, 11:51 AM
Same here!!


It looks more like Christmas around here than Thanksgiving.....I don't like snow on Thanksgiving!!

The high here in Tucson was 73 yesterday. :D

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TXBRONC
11-24-2010, 12:02 PM
Yep, Happy Thanksgiving everyone! I thankful for all of you fartknockers!

I'm only a fartknocker when I eat spicy food. Lol.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

GEM
11-24-2010, 12:10 PM
Fartknocker! :lol: One of my daughter's favorite terms.

This is the first I've heard it elsewhere . . . http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh256/AZDynamics/Smilies/thdrink.gif

-----


I call my boys fartknocker 1 and fartknocker 2....though the first one is about to change to belcher 1. PUKE!! :laugh:

GEM
11-24-2010, 12:18 PM
Some good points, but I don't believe the team is "completely defunct of
talent." Look at the O-line: Clady, Harris, Kuper, and now the rookies are
beginning to show theirs. There was a time this year, as you know, when
all three of the veterans were recovering from injuries during the same
time. They probably need to add some depth, but that starting five may be
among the most talented in the league.

The WRs are oozing with talent. And I believe the QB position is, too. At
RB, Moreno has plenty of talent, if he can stay healthy. But they apparently
need depth there, too, unless Lance Ball shows he was good enough to
salvage from the PS.

TE needs a lot of help. That's for sure.

At LB, the Broncos have a solid core with D.J., Ayers, and Dumervil. The
others have been developing (maybe a bit too slowly, but still developing)
into a solid supporting cast.

The defensive backfield has some age, but Cox, McBath, and Burton all
appear to be worthy successors.

The D-line needs help, IMO, a lot of it. But that was a particularly weak
position under Shanny's charge, too.

Overall, I don't believe talent is the major problem . . . oh yes, there are
some problem areas, but that's the case with about every team. I believe
the problem has been injuries and discipline.

And Champ brought out another aspect that has been bothering him:
tackling. If Wink does anything in the next camp, he should run some basic
tackling drills - it would be back to high school until they got it down, IMO.

What is different between this regime and the previous one is in the W-L
column. And that is the bottom line: I understand that. But I don't believe
it is because there is so much less talent than before: I remember how
people were screaming about the lack of talent back then.

Two events took place, IMO, that started the Broncos' downslide in 2006:
The career-ending injury to Al Wilson and replacing Jake with Jay before
Jay was ready (are you listening, Tebow fans?).

But that has nothing to do with now, of course. Before the regular season
began, I predicted the Broncos would have their problems before the bye
and lose a lot of games. I also predicted they would begin to get it
together afterward. They showed signs of that against KC. They had their
helmets handed to them at SD, of course, but I saw that coming, too. It
was at SD.

If we just hang on, I believe the Broncos will have a winning record for this
last half of the season. I may be wrong, of course, but now the O-line is
coming together, the running game is showing some signs of life, and they
seem to be more interested in defending the run.

Of course, the pass rush (what pass rush?) is still problematic, and that
concerns me a bunch. But if they can get Ayers back on the field, then
maybe we can see just a little improvement there, too.

I may be all wet in this. But you have to get wet to get clean. :D

-----

Very good points, Top. I was speaking mostly of defense, I should have specified. Though the heart and pride goes for all aspects. Our defense is putrid and it has been for a good number of years longer than Josh has been here. Having said that....I expected that to change when he was hired. After all, I believe that plus the GM issues with Shanny were the issue, not the offense. Shanny can still run circles around Josh in the offense department.

I guess that's another place that it falls on Bowlens' shoulders. He should have gone defensive minded. I don't know if Spags was "the" guy, but he would have come in and taken care of what was really wrong with this team.

I understand the concept of taking 2 steps back in order to take 1 step forward, but we've taken 100 back and I'm still waiting for the 1 forward. :(

The other part that really bothers me is drafting and FA. We still have this philosophy of taking aging players hoping they still have it in them. Instead of grabbing some really great players, we're grabbing projects. One project once in awhile is alright, but we're wasting numerous first round picks on these projects. After the Cutler/Marshall debacle, we should have 4-6 1st and 2nd rounders that turn to stud players. I just don't see that. We had the arsenal to have a good turnaround in the last couple years, yet we're nowhere near that. It's frustrating. If you're in the middle of a rebuild what better to have than 2 years of 2 first round picks and numerous 2nd round picks. That's a Parcells type wet dream. But when you won't even admit that you are rebuilding....eh I'm blabbering now. :lol:

robert ethan
11-24-2010, 02:01 PM
"A strange sense of Dread descends"......;)

Seriously though, Quinn is not crap. His numbers last year with the Browns were better than Wallace and Delhomme have, combined, this year. So much for The Fatman bringing in his own boys. Plus those two have about 100 years of combined age. McCoy should be bagging groceries, his entire career is going to be "week to week" on the injury list. Brady is 25 and about as solidly built as Tebow. Kevin Kolb seems to be considered one of the "up and coming" young QBs in the game, but he is older than Quinn, has less NFL experience, and poorer career stats so far.

Shazam!
11-25-2010, 02:53 AM
it really seems that those of us who held ANY faith in this regime finally gave in last night and accepted the truth that has been staring us all in the face - these guys have set the team back, a lot.

I don't think there is really anything to do at this point but hope and see if Bowlen makes the move to rectify the situation. I also think many of us hope that John Elway will take a more active role in the franchise and perhaps assist Bowlen in the future.

It would be very difficult to justify keeping McDaniels/Xander/Ellis at this point. It's not just the losses, it's the way we lose, it's how the team reacts, it's the horrible personnel decisions, it's getting rid of Mike Nolan, it's sending our best RB to Cleveland for a backup QB when you give one a contract and draft another one in the 1st round, it's immediately shopping Cutler for inferior QBs, it's losing to the Raiders 59-14 in Denver, it's so many different mistakes and patterns that have made one thing clear...

IT'S NOT WORKING.

It was the home loss to the Raiders as bad as it was that made my eyes open up and I was done with MDaniels. When losing badly to a pretty mediocre 49ers team that was an international embarassment solidified it.

I want him gone. That axe better fall in January.

PAINTERDAVE
11-25-2010, 03:31 AM
If we win no more games....
McD will be fired.

His best shot to win one or two more ...
and keep his job...
is to play Orton.

Giving Tebow practice with the first team...
and a game plan designed for his skill set...
is the logical way to utilize these last games.

And Tebow would still struggle, throw pics, and probably not win right away.
It would be like pre-season... and he would develop and get better over time.
But we very well might not win a game.

And... that would also give us a better draft position.

But that is NOT what McD will do.

He will stick with the dead end Orton...
to try to eke out another win or two... to save his job.

Funny thing is... if he did develop Tebow...
and by the end of the season...
Tebow actually improved enough to win a game...

McD would probably save his job...
Tebow would have experience...
we'd have a great draft position...
and next year would be looking pretty good.

But I don't expect McD to do that.

robert ethan
11-25-2010, 03:38 AM
Coachs try to win every game. That is what they're paid to do. That is what the fans expect them to do. If you start criticizing a coach because he does all he can to win every game, you're really getting into the twilight zone.

Tned
11-25-2010, 10:02 AM
Coachs try to win every game. That is what they're paid to do. That is what the fans expect them to do. If you start criticizing a coach because he does all he can to win every game, you're really getting into the twilight zone.

This statement is only partially accurate. Coaches try to win every game, but it's very common for a coach to start playing his young, future starters once the team is eliminated from the playoffs. Hence they aren't doing EVERYTHING they can to win, because if they were, they would never start those players at the end of a 'lost' season.

Superchop 7
11-25-2010, 11:58 AM
Let's hope some don't trip and break a leg as they stumble over the I told you so's.
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________

Who would ever say something like that ?:rolleyes:

PAINTERDAVE
11-25-2010, 02:22 PM
This statement is only partially accurate. Coaches try to win every game, but it's very common for a coach to start playing his young, future starters once the team is eliminated from the playoffs. Hence they aren't doing EVERYTHING they can to win, because if they were, they would never start those players at the end of a 'lost' season.

It is about common sense and making logical moves.

Like IF Tebow is the future
(and why the heck do you spend 4 daft picks and take him in round one if he isn't)
then you play him in this throwaway season now
and let him make his mistakes now in order for him to be prepared to
WIN BIG next season when it matters.

If they don't use this unique opportunity NOW...
and Tebow does start next year...
then we squandered the chance for him to lose the ball,
get sacked, and throw the picks when it does not matter...

and we could very well watch another season slip away
teaching the rookie expensivly in 2011
what he could have learned at no cost in 2010.