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Italianmobstr7
11-20-2010, 03:53 PM
First off I'd like to say I'm a McDaniel's supporter. I agree and disagree with some of this article. I'm posting it because not everyone has an Insider account. I can't post everything, but I'll post the part I think are the biggest.

When Josh McDaniels took over as Denver Broncos head coach in January 2009, he inherited what had been the league's second-best offense during the previous season. And while it had a passing attack that featured Jay Cutler and Brandon Marshall, Denver's passing offense was actually just seventh in the league; despite starting six different running backs in the 2008 campaign, the Broncos actually had the league's best running attack per DVOA.

Get rid of all the running backs: The scheme McDaniels helped build as the offensive coordinator in New England revolved around versatile backs like Kevin Faulk and Sammy Morris. In looking over the aforementioned trove of running backs that had started for the Broncos during an injury-riddled (if wildly effective) 2008, McDaniels didn't find a single one that fit his specifications to serve as a member of the Denver offense.

While the Broncos currently qualify to join the 49ers in that ignominious club, they're not the only ones. The Carolina Panthers were second in the league in rushing DVOA in 2008, and when the Broncos rose out of the basement last week, the Panthers inherited it. Their decline comes courtesy of injuries, though, not turnover. Unlike the Panthers, McDaniels has changed virtually everything about his running game and turned it from a winner into a loser. By the time his rushing offense bounces back toward the top of the charts, he may no longer be around to enjoy it.
http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/insider/news/story?id=5825549

There's actually a lot more to this article, I wish I could post the whole thing. Some good info in there, but some negative too.

Lancane
11-20-2010, 04:07 PM
The problem no matter how you look at the whole of the situation, is that McDaniels, as an unproven Head Coach came into a favorable well-loved organization and demolished it by making horrendously stupid mistakes; AI lying to the fans over the Cutler ordeal, or admitting he was wrong in his handling of the situation. Fans would have been far less polarized by his actions if say Cutler failed to transition well into the new scheme...what set off a lot of people was that he didn't even try and then put the blame all on Cutler, when in fact he had caused the mess. I'm not as pissed that he tried to trade Cutler without trying to succeed with him, I'm more upset that he treated the team like it was Madden 2008, then lied to the fans and was never made to atone for his stupidity. And he's continued down that path, we've had two circus like off-seasons of drama-riddled hoopla that have effected the moral of the team and the fanbase with little to show in return.

Whether you support him or not, everyone on both sides of the spectrum has to admit that he's made some serious mistakes with little promise thus far.

Italianmobstr7
11-20-2010, 04:17 PM
The problem no matter how you look at the whole of the situation, is that McDaniels, as an unproven Head Coach came into a favorable well-loved organization and demolished it by making horrendously stupid mistakes; AI lying to the fans over the Cutler ordeal, or admitting he was wrong in his handling of the situation. Fans would have been far less polarized by his actions if say Cutler failed to transition well into the new scheme...what set off a lot of people was that he didn't even try and then put the blame all on Cutler, when in fact he had caused the mess. I'm not as pissed that he tried to trade Cutler without trying to succeed with him, I'm more upset that he treated the team like it was Madden 2008, then lied to the fans and was never made to atone for his stupidity. And he's continued down that path, we've had two circus like off-seasons of drama-riddled hoopla that have effected the moral of the team and the fanbase with little to show in return.

Whether you support him or not, everyone on both sides of the spectrum has to admit that he's made some serious mistakes with little promise thus far.

And I disagree... I think we show a lot of promise. I'm stoked about our latest draft class. I think our future is very bright. Did he make some mistakes? Absolutely. He did some things right too, like bringing in Dawkins, Goodman, etc...

I liked Cutler's play but I HATED his attitude. I don't miss him one bit. Marshall was one of my favorite players. We offered him a new contract, he didn't want to sign it, so we got rid of him. I think we'll see soon that we found his replacement in Thomas. Our passing game is great right now, our running game needs some work. Hopefully the current OL can stay intact and we can get some chemistry going. We looked good against the Chiefs last week, and hopefully we can keep that momentum going. I think our team will be just fine, but it's all how you look at things. I like and support McD. I love his attitude, I love his passion. I've liked both of the drafts he's had so far as well. I think our teams future is bright, even if this season isn't a good one.

Jake Klug
11-20-2010, 04:19 PM
The problem no matter how you look at the whole of the situation, is that McDaniels, as an unproven Head Coach came into a favorable well-loved organization and demolished it by making horrendously stupid mistakes; AI lying to the fans over the Cutler ordeal, or admitting he was wrong in his handling of the situation. Fans would have been far less polarized by his actions if say Cutler failed to transition well into the new scheme...what set off a lot of people was that he didn't even try and then put the blame all on Cutler, when in fact he had caused the mess. I'm not as pissed that he tried to trade Cutler without trying to succeed with him, I'm more upset that he treated the team like it was Madden 2008, then lied to the fans and was never made to atone for his stupidity. And he's continued down that path, we've had two circus like off-seasons of drama-riddled hoopla that have effected the moral of the team and the fanbase with little to show in return.

Whether you support him or not, everyone on both sides of the spectrum has to admit that he's made some serious mistakes with little promise thus far.

This is absolutely true.

rationalfan
11-20-2010, 04:32 PM
I'm more upset that he treated the team like it was Madden 2008, then lied to the fans and was never made to atone for his stupidity.

i'm so tired of this sentiment. why do fans expect/assume the coaches are always telling the truth? they're all professional liars. believe it and accept it.

as for atonement, don't you think losing a ton of games and incurring the wrath of every knee-jerk broncos in the nation is retribution enough? i mean, really, what do you want to happen to him? have one of zeus' lightning bolts strike him during a game?

as for this thread's topic, yeah McD dismantled a successful running game. duh. i'd expect a little more insight from espn insider.

Lancane
11-20-2010, 04:36 PM
i'm so tired of this sentiment. why do fans expect/assume the coaches are always telling the truth? they're all professional liars. believe it and accept it.

as for atonement, don't you think losing a ton of games and incurring the wrath of every knee-jerk broncos in the nation is retribution enough? i mean, really, what do you want to happen to him? have one of zeus' lightning bolts strike him during a game?

as for this thread's topic, yeah McD dismantled a successful running game. duh. i'd expect a little more insight from espn insider.

Hmmm...you know that that wouldn't be half bad and very entertaining!

nevcraw
11-20-2010, 05:09 PM
i'm so tired of this sentiment. why do fans expect/assume the coaches are always telling the truth? they're all professional liars. believe it and accept it.

as for atonement, don't you think losing a ton of games and incurring the wrath of every knee-jerk broncos in the nation is retribution enough? i mean, really, what do you want to happen to him? have one of zeus' lightning bolts strike him during a game?

as for this thread's topic, yeah McD dismantled a successful running game. duh. i'd expect a little more insight from espn insider.

You would get it -- if only we could post more than the cliff notes..

I'll act out the rest of it with hand puppets.

Jake Klug
11-20-2010, 05:10 PM
i'm so tired of this sentiment. why do fans expect/assume the coaches are always telling the truth? they're all professional liars. believe it and accept it.

as for atonement, don't you think losing a ton of games and incurring the wrath of every knee-jerk broncos in the nation is retribution enough? i mean, really, what do you want to happen to him? have one of zeus' lightning bolts strike him during a game?
as for this thread's topic, yeah McD dismantled a successful running game. duh. i'd expect a little more insight from espn insider.

In the immortal words of George Costanza, "I'd like a written apology and for him to be fired."

Fan in Exile
11-20-2010, 06:57 PM
I think the argument about getting rid of Running backs is just ignorant.

Take a look here: http://www.milehighreport.com/2008/7/28/580904/2008-denver-broncos-breaki

And here: http://www.milehighreport.com/2009/7/20/944809/2009-denver-broncos-breaking-down

I would rather have the 2009 group hands down. Getting rid of some of those guys was a good idea, not a mistake. Who's the stud that McD could have brought in who would have been better?

Jake Klug
11-20-2010, 07:52 PM
I think the argument about getting rid of Running backs is just ignorant.

Take a look here: http://www.milehighreport.com/2008/7/28/580904/2008-denver-broncos-breaki

And here: http://www.milehighreport.com/2009/7/20/944809/2009-denver-broncos-breaking-down

I would rather have the 2009 group hands down. Getting rid of some of those guys was a good idea, not a mistake. Who's the stud that McD could have brought in who would have been better?

Peyton Hillis...thats enough of the easy questions, Alex.

Dreadnought
11-20-2010, 08:35 PM
I think the argument about getting rid of Running backs is just ignorant.

Take a look here: http://www.milehighreport.com/2008/7/28/580904/2008-denver-broncos-breaki

And here: http://www.milehighreport.com/2009/7/20/944809/2009-denver-broncos-breaking-down

I would rather have the 2009 group hands down. Getting rid of some of those guys was a good idea, not a mistake. Who's the stud that McD could have brought in who would have been better?

I disagree completely. The 2008 assortment of backs were better than the 2009 lot IMO, and didn't include a First round pick that desperately should have been used elsewhere. We have never even seen Moreno equal Selvin Young's kind of production - and Young, I suspect we would all agree, was nothing like an elite back in this league. Young, Tatum Bell, Hillis - all better than what we field now.

ogplife
11-20-2010, 09:11 PM
I don't think the OP has any malice against MCD, but this thread is kind of biased against him because it only posts the negative the state about him in the article.

claymore
11-20-2010, 09:20 PM
I wake up every day hoping he gets fired.

Italianmobstr7
11-20-2010, 09:28 PM
I don't think the OP has any malice against MCD, but this thread is kind of biased against him because it only posts the negative the state about him in the article.

Couldn't agree more. That's what I was saying. I'm posting it because it's an article not everyone's seen, but those are not my opinions at all. That article is completely negative and has nothing positive to say about McD at all except for that the passing game is still good.

Italianmobstr7
11-20-2010, 09:30 PM
I disagree completely. The 2008 assortment of backs were better than the 2009 lot IMO, and didn't include a First round pick that desperately should have been used elsewhere. We have never even seen Moreno equal Selvin Young's kind of production - and Young, I suspect we would all agree, was nothing like an elite back in this league. Young, Tatum Bell, Hillis - all better than what we field now.

No way were the 08 backs better than what we have. None of them were better than Moreno (except maybe Hillis). Did they put up better numbers? Yes, but that's more about the OL than the RB's. Selvin, Tatum are trash compared to Knowshon.

Canmore
11-20-2010, 09:32 PM
Couldn't agree more. That's what I was saying. I'm posting it because it's an article not everyone's seen, but those are not my opinions at all. That article is completely negative and has nothing positive to say about McD at all except for that the passing game is still good.

With our record over the last 19 games there isn't much positive to write about except the passing game.

atwater27
11-20-2010, 10:05 PM
The problem no matter how you look at the whole of the situation, is that McDaniels, as an unproven Head Coach came into a favorable well-loved organization and demolished it by making horrendously stupid mistakes; AI lying to the fans over the Cutler ordeal, or admitting he was wrong in his handling of the situation. Fans would have been far less polarized by his actions if say Cutler failed to transition well into the new scheme...what set off a lot of people was that he didn't even try and then put the blame all on Cutler, when in fact he had caused the mess. I'm not as pissed that he tried to trade Cutler without trying to succeed with him, I'm more upset that he treated the team like it was Madden 2008, then lied to the fans and was never made to atone for his stupidity. And he's continued down that path, we've had two circus like off-seasons of drama-riddled hoopla that have effected the moral of the team and the fanbase with little to show in return.

Whether you support him or not, everyone on both sides of the spectrum has to admit that he's made some serious mistakes with little promise thus far.
Couldn't agree more... Madden 2008; LMAO!!!

Fan in Exile
11-20-2010, 10:31 PM
Peyton Hillis...thats enough of the easy questions, Alex.

Peyton Hillis was here in 2009, and he didn't make things better. So try again.


I disagree completely. The 2008 assortment of backs were better than the 2009 lot IMO, and didn't include a First round pick that desperately should have been used elsewhere. We have never even seen Moreno equal Selvin Young's kind of production - and Young, I suspect we would all agree, was nothing like an elite back in this league. Young, Tatum Bell, Hillis - all better than what we field now.

That's just absurd there are reasons that Selvin went undrafted, and that he's out of the NFL right now. Even Shanny isn't taking him, and Shanny gave him his chance and was desperate for RBs. This is just plain silly.

TimTebow15MVP
11-20-2010, 10:34 PM
im going to write an article on how mcdaniels hurt KCs coach feelings.

TXBRONC
11-20-2010, 10:47 PM
Peyton Hillis was here in 2009, and he didn't make things better. So try again.



That's just absurd there are reasons that Selvin went undrafted, and that he's out of the NFL right now. Even Shanny isn't taking him, and Shanny gave him his chance and was desperate for RBs. This is just plain silly.

How was Hillis going to help much by sitting on the bench F. I. E.?

Dreadnought
11-20-2010, 10:56 PM
Peyton Hillis was here in 2009, and he didn't make things better. So try again.



That's just absurd there are reasons that Selvin went undrafted, and that he's out of the NFL right now. Even Shanny isn't taking him, and Shanny gave him his chance and was desperate for RBs. This is just plain silly.

I already conceded that Young wasn't anything like a great RB. His 700+ yards in 8 games started and 5.2 YPC in '07 was a performance beyond any potential I've seen so far out of Moreno, but that says more about Moreno than it does Young. As far as the other 09 backs go, I love Buckhalter, but he is both old and injury plagued. Who else? Lamont Jordan? Please. That stiff couldn't have made the 08 roster, and shouldn't have been on ours in 09.

Fan in Exile
11-20-2010, 11:01 PM
How was Hillis going to help much by sitting on the bench F. I. E.?

The point of the article was that McD got rid of all the RBs. But he didn't get rid of Hillis who some consider to be the best. Hillis didn't make it on the field because of his fumbling problems. I'm just pointing out the stupidity of the article.


I already conceded that Young wasn't anything like a great RB. His 700+ yards in 8 games started and 5.2 YPC in '07 was a performance beyond any potential I've seen so far out of Moreno, but that says more about Moreno than it does Young. As far as the other 09 backs go, I love Buckhalter, but he is both old and injury plagued. Who else? Lamont Jordan? Please. That stiff couldn't have made the 08 roster, and shouldn't have been on ours in 09.

Dread if you haven't seen that potential out of moreno the problem is with you not with him. You need to look again. He is clearly better than Selvin Young. Clearly.

turftoad
11-20-2010, 11:11 PM
No way were the 08 backs better than what we have. None of them were better than Moreno (except maybe Hillis). Did they put up better numbers? Yes, but that's more about the OL than the RB's. Selvin, Tatum are trash compared to Knowshon.

Whos in charge of the "O" Line again??

Dreadnought
11-20-2010, 11:15 PM
Dread if you haven't seen that potential out of moreno the problem is with you not with him. You need to look again. He is clearly better than Selvin Young. Clearly.

I see a perfectly servicable RB - and not a bit more. A latter day Sammy Winder. We need better than that.

TXBRONC
11-20-2010, 11:29 PM
The point of the article was that McD got rid of all the RBs. But he didn't get rid of Hillis who some consider to be the best. Hillis didn't make it on the field because of his fumbling problems. I'm just pointing out the stupidity of the article.

Hillis had a fumbling problem? Not according to the stats. Moreno on the other hand did yet he didn't get benched. I beg to differ with you McDaniels has indeed gotten rid of all the running backs that were on the roster before he came to town. Whether he did it all at once or over course of two seasons he's still gotten rid everyone of them.

Jake Klug
11-20-2010, 11:44 PM
Peyton Hillis was here in 2009, and he didn't make things better. So try again.






Peyton didnt make things better because he didnt play. Again, Hillis is a great example of how McDaniels has hurt the team. From the time McDaniels got to Denver, he fubarred the situation with Hillis. And now look at Hillis...and now look at Denvers running game. Sad...just sad.

Jake Klug
11-20-2010, 11:47 PM
I see a perfectly servicable RB - and not a bit more. A latter day Sammy Winder. We need better than that.

People will probably pretend to be astonished by this, but its actually not far off. Both backs basically only get what you give them. The dont/didnt create on their own so much. You could actually say Winder was a stonger runner. If I needed to get two yards and had to choose between Moreno and Winder, Id probably take Winder.

broncobryce
11-20-2010, 11:50 PM
Hillis had a fumbling problem? Not according to the stats. Moreno on the other hand did yet he didn't get benched. I beg to differ with you McDaniels has indeed gotten rid of all the running backs that were on the roster before he came to town. Whether he did it all at once or over course of two seasons he's still gotten rid everyone of them.

Well if he didn't have one then, he does now because he's fumbled 5 times this season already.

TXBRONC
11-21-2010, 12:08 AM
Well if he didn't have one then, he does now because he's fumbled 5 times this season already.

True, but Moreno had 4 last season and lost all of them all.

silkamilkamonico
11-21-2010, 03:14 AM
McDaniels has made some crazy ass decisions, but I'm tired of hearing about the "2nd best offense in football" argument, which is garbage.

It was not. End of story. That "vaunted" offense produced 23.1 ppg, which is less than the 23.6 ppg this offense is producing.

This offense is better. Period.

People can hate on Mcdaniels all they want because they guy has failed, but hate on him for the right reasons.

Elevation inc
11-21-2010, 03:51 AM
I already conceded that Young wasn't anything like a great RB. His 700+ yards in 8 games started and 5.2 YPC in '07 was a performance beyond any potential I've seen so far out of Moreno, but that says more about Moreno than it does Young. As far as the other 09 backs go, I love Buckhalter, but he is both old and injury plagued. Who else? Lamont Jordan? Please. That stiff couldn't have made the 08 roster, and shouldn't have been on ours in 09.

lol selvin young...come on dread you cant be serious....

Fan in Exile
11-21-2010, 04:11 AM
I see a perfectly servicable RB - and not a bit more. A latter day Sammy Winder. We need better than that.

Still better than Selvin Young which was the question. Keep watching Dread, it's going to be awesome.

Jake Klug
11-21-2010, 07:07 AM
McDaniels has made some crazy ass decisions, but I'm tired of hearing about the "2nd best offense in football" argument, which is garbage.

It was not. End of story. That "vaunted" offense produced 23.1 ppg, which is less than the 23.6 ppg this offense is producing.

This offense is better. Period.

People can hate on Mcdaniels all they want because they guy has failed, but hate on him for the right reasons.

Actually, the 2nd ranked offense is not garbage. Its based on yardage. Its a legitimate claim. Dont pretend like yards arent a part of offensive output. But what is garbage is this 14th ranked in scoring. When you take away all the defensive touchdowns and special teams touch downs, Denver was around 10th. But even that doesnt account for the fact that Denver typically had starting field position that was near the bottom of the league.

It was definitely a top 10 offense and maybe even a top five offense if you combine scoring and yardage. And that offense was so very young as well. The arrow was headed up. And this was during a year when Denver had to go 7 deep at RB. Punching it into the endzone wasnt really a problem when Hillis and Pittman were healthy. But even through all the injuries the offense performed. But it was at its best when Hillis was playing. Now he's running for 180 yards against McDaniels' master.

rcsodak
11-21-2010, 01:05 PM
And I disagree... I think we show a lot of promise. I'm stoked about our latest draft class. I think our future is very bright. Did he make some mistakes? Absolutely. He did some things right too, like bringing in Dawkins, Goodman, etc...

I liked Cutler's play but I HATED his attitude. I don't miss him one bit. Marshall was one of my favorite players. We offered him a new contract, he didn't want to sign it, so we got rid of him. I think we'll see soon that we found his replacement in Thomas. Our passing game is great right now, our running game needs some work. Hopefully the current OL can stay intact and we can get some chemistry going. We looked good against the Chiefs last week, and hopefully we can keep that momentum going. I think our team will be just fine, but it's all how you look at things. I like and support McD. I love his attitude, I love his passion. I've liked both of the drafts he's had so far as well. I think our teams future is bright, even if this season isn't a good one.

Spot on!

rcsodak
11-21-2010, 01:08 PM
I wake up every day hoping he gets fired.

No, clay....that's just telling you you have to go pee. :rolleyes:

rcsodak
11-21-2010, 01:10 PM
How was Hillis going to help much by sitting on the bench F. I. E.?

That happens when you can't practice at game speed, and are too dumb to pick up the plays.









:D

Dreadnought
11-21-2010, 01:12 PM
lol selvin young...come on dread you cant be serious....

As I said, I never claimed Young was a top notch RB. My comment was more directed at Moreno, who at this stage looks to be a mediocrity.

Thats not to say he is a stiff. Lamont Jordan was a stiff. Laurence Maroney is a stiff. Those guys suck. Moreno is a decent, servicable, mediocre ball carrier. Too small, too slow, without great vision or burst at this point, but worth a roster spot.

Mediocre does not mean crappy. Folks mess up that definition all the time. It means middle of the road. Average. OK. perfectly fine. Every team needs some guys like that on the roster - where I differ is I don't want them as first string RB.

rcsodak
11-21-2010, 01:13 PM
Peyton didnt make things better because he didnt play. Again, Hillis is a great example of how McDaniels has hurt the team. From the time McDaniels got to Denver, he fubarred the situation with Hillis. And now look at Hillis...and now look at Denvers running game. Sad...just sad.

TD wouldn't have had the stats he had, being on most other teams. Same goes with Hillis.

rcsodak
11-21-2010, 01:14 PM
True, but Moreno had 4 last season and lost all of them all.

A rook that fumbled? For SHAME!

spikerman
11-21-2010, 01:15 PM
TD wouldn't have had the stats he had, being on most other teams. Same goes with Hillis.

Maybe the coaches of those other teams wouldn't have been smart enough to play TD. Just a thought.

silkamilkamonico
11-21-2010, 01:27 PM
Actually, the 2nd ranked offense is not garbage. Its based on yardage. Its a legitimate claim. Dont pretend like yards arent a part of offensive output. But what is garbage is this 14th ranked in scoring. When you take away all the defensive touchdowns and special teams touch downs, Denver was around 10th. But even that doesnt account for the fact that Denver typically had starting field position that was near the bottom of the league.

It was definitely a top 10 offense and maybe even a top five offense if you combine scoring and yardage. And that offense was so very young as well. The arrow was headed up. And this was during a year when Denver had to go 7 deep at RB. Punching it into the endzone wasnt really a problem when Hillis and Pittman were healthy. But even through all the injuries the offense performed. But it was at its best when Hillis was playing. Now he's running for 180 yards against McDaniels' master.

Yardage is NOT more important than points. You can spin the yardage argument any way you want, but you don't win with gaining more yards than the other team.

You use field position as an argument for the offense. How many points did our vaunted offense that year directly contribute agains the defense by turning the ball over in immediate field goal position?

I might even spare you the Miami game where Jay Cutlers vaunted offensive turnovers single handidly lost the game for Denver.

Dean
11-21-2010, 02:58 PM
Yardage is NOT more important than points. You can spin the yardage argument any way you want, but you don't win with gaining more yards than the other team.

Correct me if I have somehow misread the stats from each year. However, 2008 did better in [B]both[B] yards and points scored. Doesn't that make this arguement a red herring.


You use field position as an argument for the offense. How many points did our vaunted offense that year directly contribute agains the defense by turning the ball over in immediate field goal position?

When did the arguement switch to the defense?


I might even spare you the Miami game where Jay Cutlers vaunted offensive turnovers single handidly lost the game for Denver.

Will you spare us the multiple games that our lack of a running game (and short passing game only last year) has lost games for Denver? :coffee:

silkamilkamonico
11-21-2010, 03:37 PM
Correct me if I have somehow misread the stats from each year. However, 2008 did better in [B]both[B] yards and points scored. Doesn't that make this arguement a red herring.

2008 - 23.1 ppg
2010 - 23.6 ppg so far

I think you did misread the stats.




When did the arguement switch to the defense?

About the same time it somehow swtiched to "field position".




Will you spare us the multiple games that our lack of a running game (and short passing game only last year) has lost games for Denver? :coffee:



Right, just like you're 'conveniently' sparing the games Jay Culter and our offense lost games for us the previous years.

Dean
11-21-2010, 03:59 PM
2008 - 23.1 ppg
2010 - 23.6 ppg so far

I think you did misread the stats.

Is that offensive point production or total point production (special teams and defensive points combines with offensive production)?






About the same time it somehow swtiched to "field position".

Hasn't where you started a drive always had a huge impact upon how probable of successfully scoring?








Right, just like you're 'conveniently' sparing the games Jay Culter and our offense lost games for us the previous years.

Yes, Jay's mistakes cost us points. I was just showing these last two year's other side of the same coin.

silkamilkamonico
11-21-2010, 04:10 PM
Is that offensive point production or total point production (special teams and defensive points combines with offensive production)?

ppg = points per game. If I were to go offensive points production it would be skewed significantly, because you would be absolutely foolish to consider one, and not the other (points the offense is responsible for that counts against the defense).








Hasn't where you started a drive always had a huge impact upon how probable of successfully scoring?

It has about the same impact as turning the ball over on your side of the field in immediate FG range for the other team, or even worse, turnovers for TD's. Just because you aren't getting good field starting position, doesn't mean you say "f--- it", and turn the ball over that immediately leads to at least a FG oppurtunity for the other team.










Yes, Jay's mistakes cost us points. I was just showing these last two year's other side of the same coin.

I wasn't arguing the last 2 years at all. Feel free to create a new argument about it. I was showing the ridiculousness of the argument for our 2008 offense did not need to be changed, especially considering it was system friendly, and expecting McDaniels, or any new coach that was hired to replace Shanahan, wasn't going to be running Shanahan's system.

spikerman
11-21-2010, 04:33 PM
I wasn't arguing the last 2 years at all. Feel free to create a new argument about it. I was showing the ridiculousness of the argument for our 2008 offense did not need to be changed, especially considering it was system friendly, and expecting McDaniels, or any new coach that was hired to replace Shanahan, wasn't going to be running Shanahan's system.

Even if the offense wasn't where it should be, do you think overhauling it was more of a priority than overhauling one of the worst defenses in Broncos' history? If you did then Josh McD may have a job for you.

Day1BroncoFan
11-21-2010, 04:51 PM
All of this is wasted words. The future is ahead and the team is what it is.

I will move forware with our new team and leave the past in the past. :D

spikerman
11-21-2010, 04:53 PM
All of this is wasted words. The future is ahead and the team is what it is.

I will move forware with our new team and leave the past in the past. :D

Hopefully good times are ahead and we don't have to look to the past to feel better about our Broncos, but it may be a while.

And by the way, this is the Internet....it's composed almost entirely of "wasted words". :)

Day1BroncoFan
11-21-2010, 04:55 PM
Hopefully good times are ahead and we don't have to look to the past to feel better about our Broncos, but it may be a while.

And by the way, this is the Internet....it's composed almost entirely of "wasted words". :)

I hope so too and sooner rather than later.

Not mine. :D

spikerman
11-21-2010, 04:58 PM
I hope so too and sooner rather than later.

Not mine. :D

Of course not yours. You're the exception! :lol:

Day1BroncoFan
11-21-2010, 05:03 PM
Of course not yours. You're the exception! :lol:

I just don't say a lot, internet or otherwise is all. :nod:

spikerman
11-21-2010, 05:05 PM
I just don't say a lot, internet or otherwise is all. :nod:

My comment was totally "tongue in cheek" with no malice whatsoever. I'll readily admit that I constantly populate the Internet with crap. ha ha ha.

Day1BroncoFan
11-21-2010, 05:10 PM
My comment was totally "tongue in cheek" with no malice whatsoever. I'll readily admit that I constantly populate the Internet with crap. ha ha ha.

Hey all that "crap" as you call it is one of the reasons why I come here and read so much. I love the Broncos but I'm not a football guru. I enjoy the read. There are some that are full of themselves, you don't seem to me to be one of them.

I'm not even all that football knowledgeable for that matter.

silkamilkamonico
11-21-2010, 05:18 PM
Even if the offense wasn't where it should be, do you think overhauling it was more of a priority than overhauling one of the worst defenses in Broncos' history? If you did then Josh McD may have a job for you.

What did he "overhaul"?

An undisciplined gun slinging QB he knew would not fit his discplined take what's there offense? People can question McDaniels all they want about trading a Pro Bowl QB who propsered in the same system as Jake Plummer and Brian Griese. And if you do, you must acknowledge that he made the right call with it.

The only glaring criticism IMHO is what's going on with the oline. Which he did NOT overhaul, and was merely average at best in a different system than the one it ran before. And again, if you are insinuating that McDaniels, or any coach hired to replace Shanahan, should come in and run Shanahan's system with Shanahan's oline, I would argue that you are vehemently wrong.

spikerman
11-21-2010, 05:18 PM
Hey all that "crap" as you call it is one of the reasons why I come here and read so much. I love the Broncos but I'm not a football guru. I enjoy the read. There are some that are full of themselves, you don't seem to me to be one of them.

I'm not even all that football knowledgeable for that matter.
Don't sweat it. If any of us were as knowledgeable as we thought we were we'd all be more involved with the game. We're all novices. I do officiate football, but I think I learn something new EVERY game I work. When I think I know it all, it's probably time to retire.

HORSEPOWER 56
11-21-2010, 05:21 PM
After reading through 4 pages of posts, I think the bottom line for why the Broncos are in the state they are in has been McDaniels' inability to compromise. Since arriving in Denver, he has gotten pretty much everything his way, good or bad. No meddlesome owner to step on his toes, no meddlesome GM to do it, either.

Only in Denver would a rookie HC get the power and authority to trade not just the teams' starting QB, but his starting WR, TE, FB, and free reign to cut/sign anyone he wants. The first time anyone has challenged him, openly or not, they've been shown the door. Cutler, Marshall, Bates, Scheffler, Hillis, the Goodwins, Mike Nolan, Bobby Turner, Rick Dennison, etc, etc, etc.

He cleaned house when, instead of coming in with the notion we were a sad-sack franchise that needed rebuilding from the ground up in the Bellichick NE image, he should've looked around at all the experience guys like the Goodwins and Nolan could've given him and sought their counsel instead of just seeing them as a threat to him and getting them out of town.

We had a big win last week and a lot of guys are feeling pretty good about it. Let's see if it can continue. If we beat KC that badly, we should easily beat the Chargers this week. We'll see.

silkamilkamonico
11-21-2010, 05:23 PM
After reading through 4 pages of posts, I think the bottom line for why the Broncos are in the state they are in has been McDaniels' inability to compromise. Since arriving in Denver, he has gotten pretty much everything his way, good or bad. No meddlesome owner to step on his toes, no meddlesome GM to do it, either.

Only in Denver would a rookie HC get the power and authority to trade not just the teams' starting QB, but his starting WR, TE, FB, and free reign to cut/sign anyone he wants. The first time anyone has challenged him, openly or not, they've been shown the door. Cutler, Marshall, Bates, Scheffler, Hillis, the Goodwins, Mike Nolan, Bobby Turner, Rick Dennison, etc, etc, etc.

He cleaned house when, instead of coming in with the notion we were a sad-sack franchise that needed rebuilding from the ground up in the Bellichick NE image, he should've looked around at all the experience guys like the Goodwins and Nolan could've given him and sought their counsel instead of just seeing them as a threat to him and getting them out of town.

We had a big win last week and a lot of guys are feeling pretty good about it. Let's see if it can continue. If we beat KC that badly, we should easily beat the Chargers this week. We'll see.

IMHO it's just a continued downward trend of what's been happening since John Elway retired.

A lack of success on the field.

spikerman
11-21-2010, 05:27 PM
What did he "overhaul"?

An undisciplined gun slinging QB he knew would not fit his discplined take what's there offense? People can question McDaniels all they want about trading a Pro Bowl QB who propsered in the same system as Jake Plummer and Brian Griese. And if you do, you must acknowledge that he made the right call with it. Unfortunately, I can't acknowledge that he made the right call because nobody knows how Cutler would have done under this system. Don't forget that even after the controversy exploded, McDaniels attempted to do a little "damage control" (read butt kissing) with Cutler; for example, using Cutler's jersey as the sample throwback. I think McDaniels "stepped in it" and once he realized he made a mistake he tried to backtrack. At that point the immaturity of Cutler made it an untenable situation. You can see now what Cutler can do with a decent defense. The Bears are 7-3. He is less of a gunslinger now. Who is to say that he couldn't have done that in Denver? Because of this I can't say that Cutler could not have done even better here although Orton is playing very well.


The only glaring criticism IMHO is what's going on with the oline. Which he did NOT overhaul, and was merely average at best in a different system than the one it ran before. And again, if you are insinuating that McDaniels, or any coach hired to replace Shanahan, should come in and run Shanahan's system with Shanahan's oline, I would arguably that you are vehemently wrong. He also used his first pick on a running back even though his "system" does not rely on a top rb. He could have focused on improving the primary weakness on the team. He chose not to do that. He chose to trade multiple picks for a TE that caught 12 passes in his college career. He chose to change the blocking scheme for an offensive line not built for it. These are ways he overhauled the offense and didn't put his focus where it was needed. This is why two years later Denver's defense is still a joke and the offense is very mediocre. That's just my $.02 though.

silkamilkamonico
11-21-2010, 05:39 PM
Unfortunately, I can't acknowledge that he made the right call because nobody knows how Cutler would have done under this system. Don't forget that even after the controversy exploded, McDaniels attempted to do a little "damage control" (read butt kissing) with Cutler; for example, using Cutler's jersey as the sample throwback. I think McDaniels "stepped in it" and once he realized he made a mistake he tried to backtrack. At that point the immaturity of Cutler made it an untenable situation. You can see now what Cutler can do with a decent defense. The Bears are 7-3. He is less of a gunslinger now. Who is to say that he couldn't have done that in Denver? Because of this I can't say that Cutler could not have done even better here although Orton is playing very well.

Yet his turnovers have not changed. His winning in Chicago, just like Kyle Orton was winning in Chicago.

We are getting better QB play than we were with Cutler. McDaniels also did no "butt kissing" with Cutler, I am not sure where you got there. If anything, he made it worse by calling an individual meeting with Cutler, and then proceeded to critique's Cutler's faults, which in turn forced Cutler to run out of the room crying. That is what led to Cutler cutting off contact with the organization, which is about the most immature move you can do.

Also, I would bet money that he had no say in using Cutlers jersey in advertising the throwbacks. That was a PR move by the organization to market the jersey with their "franchise" QB at the time.


He also used his first pick on a running back even though his "system" does not rely on a top rb. He could have focused on improving the primary weakness on the team. He chose not to do that. He chose to trade multiple picks for a TE that caught 12 passes in his college career. He chose to change the blocking scheme for an offensive line not built for it. These are ways he overhauled the offense and didn't put his focus where it was needed. This is why two years later Denver's defense is still a joke and the offense is very mediocre. That's just my $.02 though.

That is not "overhauling" the offense. At the time, we desperately needed a RB. That's a fact too. You can argue he made a bad draft decision, but it wasn't "overhauling" the RB position from the year before.

You are spinning the overhauling the offense argument, which is wrong IMHO, and turn towards by drafting, which is something this organization has had since Shanahan was hired.

Again, as far as the oline goes, if you expected him, or any coach, to run the same scheme as Shanahan, you are wrong. Shanahan didn't even do that with the top 10 defense he inherited, which has now fallen to one of the worst in the NFL.

spikerman
11-21-2010, 05:55 PM
Yet his turnovers have not changed. His winning in Chicago, just like Kyle Orton was winning in Chicago. But in this league it is all about winning.



We are getting better QB play than we were with Cutler. McDaniels also did no "butt kissing" with Cutler, I am not sure where you got there. If anything, he made it worse by calling an individual meeting with Cutler, and then proceeded to critique's Cutler's faults, which in turn forced Cutler to run out of the room crying. That is what led to Cutler cutting off contact with the organization, which is about the most immature move you can do. Your version of events is one of the stories that came out, but there is no proof that that is actually what happened. My "butt kissing" comment is my interpretation of McDaniels using the jersey with the sheepish grin on his face. I may be misreading that, but I believe that it's stronger evidence than hearsay concerning private discussions.


Also, I would bet money that he had no say in using Cutlers jersey in advertising the throwbacks. That was a PR move by the organization to market the jersey with their "franchise" QB at the time. That could be, but if that's the case, they obviously had no intention of trading him at that point so they must have believed he could work within the system.


That is not "overhauling" the offense. At the time, we desperately needed a RB. That's a fact too. You can argue he made a bad draft decision, but it wasn't "overhauling" the RB position from the year before.

You are spinning the overhauling the offense argument, which is wrong IMHO, and turn towards by drafting, which is something this organization has had since Shanahan was hired.

Again, as far as the oline goes, if you expected him, or any coach, to run the same scheme as Shanahan, you are wrong. Shanahan didn't even do that with the top 10 defense he inherited, which has now fallen to one of the worst in the NFL. And why did Denver "desperately" need a RB? The system was effective the year before even with the "walking wounded" in the backfield. Maybe if McDaniels had taken a better look at who he already had on the roster instead of coming in with preconceived notions he would have seen that he didn't need to waste that pick (among others) after all.

The "overhauling" argument and drafting argument can't be separated in my opinion, because part of what I believe have been two sub par drafts since he took over are precisely because he focused initially on the wrong side of the ball. Sure, he could change the offense to his liking, but why not do the sensible thing and concentrate on the area of greatest need first?

I didn't bother to look up if Shanahan actually inherited a top 10 defense like you said, but I do know that the defense he inherited had been getting blown out regularly before Shanahan got there.

rcsodak
11-21-2010, 06:14 PM
As I said, I never claimed Young was a top notch RB. My comment was more directed at Moreno, who at this stage looks to be a mediocrity.

Thats not to say he is a stiff. Lamont Jordan was a stiff. Laurence Maroney is a stiff. Those guys suck. Moreno is a decent, servicable, mediocre ball carrier. Too small, too slow, without great vision or burst at this point, but worth a roster spot.

Mediocre does not mean crappy. Folks mess up that definition all the time. It means middle of the road. Average. OK. perfectly fine. Every team needs some guys like that on the roster - where I differ is I don't want them as first string RB.

You'd make more sense if you'd just said 'injury prone'.

And last I saw, Olines generally make rb's, not the other way around.

Northman
11-21-2010, 06:18 PM
You'd make more sense if you'd just said 'injury prone'.

And last I saw, Olines generally make rb's, not the other way around.

Who knew that Barry Sanders ran behind one of the best Olines ever. :lol:

rcsodak
11-21-2010, 06:24 PM
Even if the offense wasn't where it should be, do you think overhauling it was more of a priority than overhauling one of the worst defenses in Broncos' history? If you did then Josh McD may have a job for you.

MAYBE McD decided it'd be easier to create an offense that can keep up with other teams, UNTIL he can address the defense?

And I'd say drafting Ayers (defense) as his 1st pick prolly DID show he knew it needed addressed.
And bringing in FA's to give the D as a bridge, vs rooks, is prolly showing he KNEW it needed addressed.
And bringing in an all new Dline this year prolly DID show he knew it needed addressed.

Ya'll act like he's completely ignored the defense, when in actuality, he's done more in a yr and a half than his predecessor had in upteen years.

Ya'll brag about how Nolan had the defense top 10 last year....but then turn around and act like that happened with scheme only, which is proposterous in itself.

spikerman
11-21-2010, 06:29 PM
MAYBE McD decided it'd be easier to create an offense that can keep up with other teams, UNTIL he can address the defense?

And I'd say drafting Ayers (defense) as his 1st pick prolly DID show he knew it needed addressed.
And bringing in FA's to give the D as a bridge, vs rooks, is prolly showing he KNEW it needed addressed.
And bringing in an all new Dline this year prolly DID show he knew it needed addressed. Actually Ayers was his second pick and was/is a project. That doesn't show much of a sense of urgency imo.



Ya'll act like he's completely ignored the defense, when in actuality, he's done more in a yr and a half than his predecessor had in upteen years.

Ya'll brag about how Nolan had the defense top 10 last year....but then turn around and act like that happened with scheme only, which is proposterous in itself.

To me it looks like his approach to fixing the defense is very similar to the last regime. Concentrate on offense and try to use patchwork players to fix the defense. The approach has not only been similar, but so have the results.

I think a lot of Denver's success early last year had a lot to do with the "scheme", but Denver's lack of talent, old age, and teams having time to figure out the defense all contributed to the perfect storm of the last 10 games of last year.

rcsodak
11-21-2010, 06:34 PM
After reading through 4 pages of posts, I think the bottom line for why the Broncos are in the state they are in has been McDaniels' inability to compromise. Since arriving in Denver, he has gotten pretty much everything his way, good or bad. No meddlesome owner to step on his toes, no meddlesome GM to do it, either.

Only in Denver would a rookie HC get the power and authority to trade not just the teams' starting QB, but his starting WR, TE, FB, and free reign to cut/sign anyone he wants. The first time anyone has challenged him, openly or not, they've been shown the door. Cutler, Marshall, Bates, Scheffler, Hillis, the Goodwins, Mike Nolan, Bobby Turner, Rick Dennison, etc, etc, etc.

He cleaned house when, instead of coming in with the notion we were a sad-sack franchise that needed rebuilding from the ground up in the Bellichick NE image, he should've looked around at all the experience guys like the Goodwins and Nolan could've given him and sought their counsel instead of just seeing them as a threat to him and getting them out of town.

We had a big win last week and a lot of guys are feeling pretty good about it. Let's see if it can continue. If we beat KC that badly, we should easily beat the Chargers this week. We'll see.

How do you know Mr B didn't tell him to rid the team of the softies/malcontents of shanny's regime?

And I love how you just twisted their win, at home, over kc, into a nothing or all vs SD, away. :lol: That way you can come back and somehow (waiting to see how you do it) twist and turn the game, if it's a loss, into another anti-McD rant.

Nevermind, I guess, that SD has the #2D/#1O.... :rolleyes:

HORSEPOWER 56
11-21-2010, 06:48 PM
How do you know Mr B didn't tell him to rid the team of the softies/malcontents of shanny's regime?

And I love how you just twisted their win, at home, over kc, into a nothing or all vs SD, away. :lol: That way you can come back and somehow (waiting to see how you do it) twist and turn the game, if it's a loss, into another anti-McD rant.

Nevermind, I guess, that SD has the #2D/#1O.... :rolleyes:

Is KC not a better team than SD? Doesn't their record as well as their head-to-head victory prove that? If we go down to SD tomorrow and get our asses handed to us, I'll be just as interested to see you make 100 excuses as to why it's not McDaniels' fault. The starting O-line is healthy, Moreno is healthy, we may even get Ayers back. He's running desperately low on excuses in a lot of fans' eyes. If we can hang 49 points on the Chiefs, why should we not be able to at least score half as many on SD? 24 points might just be enough to win. We'll see I guess.

As for knowing if Bowlen told Josh _____, seeing as how Bowlen has NEVER gotten involved in such things, I strongly doubt it. Joe Ellis is pretty much making the ownership level decisions right now. Remember how Bowlen "ordered" McDaniels to trade Cutler after Cutler wouldn't return his calls? Cutler disputed it, and Bowlen now strangely just can't remember... Bowlen's mental acuity is lacking. He's definitely not the guy calling down to Josh's office and telling him who to trade, cut, or sign...

Jake Klug
11-21-2010, 06:58 PM
All of this is wasted words. The future is ahead and the team is what it is.

I will move forware with our new team and leave the past in the past. :D

You're very obedient to Joe Ellis.

Day1BroncoFan
11-21-2010, 07:26 PM
You're very obedient to Joe Ellis.

Wrong.

Lancane
11-21-2010, 07:28 PM
Ya'll act like he's completely ignored the defense, when in actuality, he's done more in a yr and a half than his predecessor had in upteen years.

Ya'll brag about how Nolan had the defense top 10 last year....but then turn around and act like that happened with scheme only, which is proposterous in itself.

Bullshit...Shanahan up till the 2000 season fielded defenses that were continually in the top ten, that's a fact. His first season was the only time in that span that it was ranked outside the top fifteen defenses in the league. The difference was that Shanahan drafted poor defensive talent and signed better free agents in that area; though we do have to credit him with drafting a good defensive player here and there. It wasn't until 2003 that Denver's defense was again ranked in the top ten and that was continual until the 2007 season. They were not completely dominant, but better then what we've seen since...So for nine out of thirteen seasons he had a defensive unit that according to statistics was three-quarters better then most of the league. So that sort of blows the shit out of your statement, now that may be your opinion, but it's nothing more then that.

And before you go ranting on about how Shanahan could only add free agents to help the defense, I will point out that McDaniels has thus far proven to be even more mundane in that area then was. And the defense as it is now is still built around the players Shanahan drafted or brought in; Dumervile, D.J. Williams and Bailey. Ayers is still and unknown, we've seen only a little solid play from any of his draftees and they can not even surpass broke down veterans and journeyman players for in the starting line-up. If you ask me, I would have to say, yeah...Nolan had a lot to do with last year's defense because he had lesser talent and better results and that McDaniels is no better at adding defensive talent then Shanahan was.

Sorry RC, but there is no proof of any sort to back up your statement that he's done that much for the defense.

Offensively, the team is no better either...we're no better running, no better scoring and only a tad better in the passing offense!

ursamajor
11-21-2010, 08:57 PM
I wake up every day hoping he gets fired.

Haven't seen you in a while. Good to see you back :cheers:

Bosco
11-22-2010, 12:29 AM
I'll forever be grateful to him for kicking Cutler, Marshall and Scheffler out of Denver along with the mentally weak prima donna atmosphere that Shanahan allowed in his later years. That alone made it worth any growing pains.

Italianmobstr7
11-22-2010, 01:40 AM
Who knew that Barry Sanders ran behind one of the best Olines ever. :lol:

He's probably the only exception to the rule.