Trading with Broncos turning into game of 'Let's make a steal'By

[T.K.O.]

Trading with Broncos turning into game of 'Let's make a steal'By Elliot Harrison Special to NFL.com



When Browns running back Peyton Hillis hurdled Patriots safety James Sanders on Sunday, it seemed as if for a second he was leaping over all the backs on the Broncos roster. Every thought bubble at Cleveland Browns Stadium must have said, "Thank you, Josh McDaniels."

A lot of people have been silently thanking McDaniels lately. The Hillis trade last March is just one of several moves that worked out better for everyone besides the Broncos. While any GM/head coach can bungle a trade now and then, several of McDaniels' moves just haven't panned. Rather than grill him in this space, it would be more appropriate to ask the simple question: What's Denver's plan?

In order to answer that, we have to review some of the wheelings and dealings of the head coach/de facto co-GM (with Brian Xanders).

» Traded Hillis to Cleveland for Brady Quinn, a sixth-round pick in 2011, and a conditional pick in 2012. Need there be any more words to describe this trade, other than that Hillis has more rushing yards this season than the entire Broncos' stable of backs? McDaniels kept using Knowshon Moreno in short-yardage last season in lieu of the bruiser Hillis, with negative results. It smacked a little of "playing my guy" instead of "my predecessor's guy." Now Hillis is running over everyone's guy in Ohio.


Tony Dejak / Associated Press
Peyton Hillis rushed for 184 yards and has two touchdowns against the Patriots in Week 9.

Notable Broncos trades in Josh McDaniels era
Date Team Traded Received
4/1/2009 Bears QB Jay Cutler, 2009 5th-rounder QB Kyle Orton, first-rounders in 2009 and 2010, 2009 third-round pick
4/14/2009 Dolphins WR Brandon Marshall 2010 and 2011 second-round picks
3/14/2010 Browns RB Peyton Hillis, 2011 6th-rounder, conditional 2012 pick QB Brady Quinn
9/4/2010 Lions CB Alphonso Smith TE Dan Gronkowski
» Traded their 2010 first-round pick to get cornerback Alphonso Smith in the second round of the 2009 draft. After only one year, Denver traded Smith to Lions for tight end Dan Gronkowski. Smith has almost as many interceptions (five) as Gronkowski has receptions (six) this season. Smith has more touchdowns than Gronkowski as well (1-0).

» Traded Brandon Marshall to the Dolphins for two second-round picks. While the Broncos' passing game has no doubt thrived without No. 19, is there anyone on the roster that could make a play to win a game like Marshall's catch-and-run vs. the Cowboys last year? In fairness to the Broncos, they were not likely going to be able to re-sign the petulant receiver after the 2010 season when his contract in Denver was set to expire.

» Traded quarterback Jay Cutler to the Bears. McDaniels whisked two first-round picks, Kyle Orton, as well as a third, for Cutler and a fifth-rounder 18 months ago. From the highway it looks like a heckuva deal with Denver getting a king's ransom of picks as well as Orton's big stats this year. But from the campsite, you begin to see some dead trees, starting with the fact that Orton's 2010 numbers are Enron-esque. No one cares if you put up 300-yard games if you lose two out of every three games like the Broncos have this season. While Orton has played well, McDaniels has already made it clear he's not the future by drafting Tim Tebow. The first-round picks in the Cutler trade eventually became Robert Ayers, a linebacker with promise, as well as Demaryius Thomas, who could eventually be a good receiver if he can stay healthy.

(Interesting sidebar to the Cutler deal: The only Pro Bowl player involved in the trade was Johnny Knox. who was acquired by the Bears with the fifth-round pick and went on to make the Pro Bowl as a kick returner.)

Compiling draft picks is nice; it helps build for the future. Problem is, so many people felt the future was already there in Denver.

Cutler is 27, Marshall 26, Smith 25. Hillis seems like he's been around forever, but he's only 24. While the Broncos had what appeared to be solid drafts in 2009 and 2010, none of the players taken are of Hillis' or Marshall's ilk -- at least not yet.

So what's the deal? Apparently they weren't McDaniels' guys, and he felt he could channel his old boss in New England and stockpile picks. Hey, it worked, sort of. While Denver bagged a bunch of early-round picks, it doesn't do good to draft young talent if they're not playing.

Knowshon Moreno, a first-rounder in 2009, has missed too much time this season with injuries. Even when he has played, he's averaged just 3 yards a crack. Thomas was inactive for the opener, has been on the injury report a couple of times, and has started just one game.

While the injuries aren't McDaniels' fault, he must be held accountable for dealing a wideout that caught more than 100 balls each of the last three seasons and a running back that's outrushed his entire team.

Then there's Tebow. Denver is 2-6 and last in the AFC West, and Orton is not considered the future. McDaniels might as well play him. Even if the offense and blitz schemes are a little much for Tebow to grasp, he can still play.

The former Florida standout is different from Aaron Rodgers and Philip Rivers, both of whom sat on the bench early in their careers, because he can play out of a wildcat set. He's a great athlete that could definitely use some reps in real games and witness NFL game speed. That's one big part of the learning curve for young quarterbacks, and Tebow could benefit from the experience without hurting his team. And yet, McDaniels has rarely dialed Tebow's number in their "Wild Horse" set.

Having arguably the greatest college football player ever rot on the bench is a head-scratcher. That said, not everything McDaniels has done has gone awry.

Free-agent acquisitions Jamal Williams and Kevin Vickerson have done a decent job on the defensive line. Several of McDaniels' draft picks look to be okay -- Ayers, cornerback Perrish Cox, and center J.D. Walton, to name a few. But the reality is the team on the field in Mile High is not as talented as the guys traded away. And the guys traded away were in their prime.

So was Mike Nolan, who despite transforming the Broncos' defense from the NFL's 26th-ranked unit in 2008 to seventh overall in 2009, was allowed to leave for Miami to coordinate the Dolphins' defense. Whatever the circumstances were surrounding the end of that relationship, McDaniels must take some responsibility for a very talented defensive coach exiting the building when the Broncos defense has struggled like it has (currently 23rd in the NFL). Nolan, meanwhile, has improved Miami from 22nd overall defensively to 13th.

While new defensive coordinator Don Martindale doesn't have injured pass rusher Elvis Dumervil at his disposal, the club hasn't done a strong job of drafting building blocks to fit its 3-4 system, one more small indication that the plan, not necessarily McDaniels the coach, is in question.

Make no mistake, McDaniels the coach has struggled. The Broncos have lost 14 of their last 18 games after getting off to a 6-0 start under McDaniels. That would be easier to swallow for Broncos fans if a plan was apparent. While all the results certainly aren't in, the ones that are don't look so good. Some of the many draft picks could end up panning out, but the question is whether McDaniels will be around to bear the fruit.
************************************************** *********

ouch !

[BroncoStud]

Marshall was gone, Denver got a lot in return for him - that's a GOOD trade for Denver.

San Diego was faced with a similar circumstance a few years ago with Michael Turner and they opted to let him go and the Falcons got one hell of a player and the Chargers got NADA. They weren't even using him behind Tomlinson.

Marshall wasn't going to re-sign with Denver.

Cutler is throwing interceptions like nobody's business. He's a head case with a great arm and good mobility. While he's arguably better than Orton, certainly physically, certainly not mentally, that trade worked out well for Denver as Cutler was a goner anyway.

The Hillis trade is the one that burns, but I don't think anyone expected Quinn to suck this badly.

[turftoad]

Good article. The truth hurts a little. Or maybe a lot. :tsk:

[jhildebrand]

Marshall wasn't going to re-sign with Denver.



Marshall was signing with whomever would pony up. Had that been the Broncos, he would have resigned.

I agree that the Broncos got good value for him considering the other WR's that have been moved. Who got the better deal remains to be seen by what those #2 draft picks do.

[blamkin86]

While I'm not one to stifle conversation, what exactly is the point of this article?

"Hey Denver fans, not only do you have one of the worst teams in the league, but you made some bad personnel decisions too."

Duh.

:coffee:

[SOCALORADO.]

Marshall was gone, Denver got a lot in return for him - that's a GOOD trade for Denver.

Yeah, that is a good trade. As long as McDaniels is not making those picks.;)

[topscribe]

And to think that at one time Denver was the one considered to be doing the stealing . . . :tsk:

-----

[dogfish]

I don't think anyone expected Quinn to suck this badly.

somebody here certainly did. . . .



:epicfacepalm:

[dogfish]

And to think that at one time Denver was the one considered to be doing the stealing . . . :tsk:

-----

we've become dan snyder, except without the deep pockets. . . :laugh:



:frusty:

[Ravage!!!]

I swear, My name isn't Elliot Harrison.

[turftoad]

we've become dan snyder, except without the deep pockets. . . :laugh:



:frusty:

We've become a laughing stock. :tsk:

[dogfish]

We've become a laughing stock. :tsk:

we really have-- very frustrating. . .

[I Eat Staples]

Let's take a look at this.

Hillis trade - I didn't expect it at the time, but obviously this is one of the most one-sided trades in recent memory.

Marshall trade - WR is the least important position in the NFL and we haven't missed any production. We win this one.

Cutler trade - Chicago gave up a lot. We win this one too.

1st round pick to acquire Smith - So stupid, only Josh McDaniels could do it. This is an obvious travesty. One of those things you have to read a few times to let it sink in that an NFL coach could be so clueless as to how the draft works.

Smith for Gronkowski - Made the Smith disaster even worse. We basically gave him to the Lions. Dan Gronkowski =/= compensation. Funny to read that Smith has more TDs than Gronkowski. I have a feeling their careers will end that way.

4th round pick for Maroney - Waste of a 4th round pick. Complete waste. Bellicheck needs to write McD a thank you card for the free draft pick.

Trading down and back up in the draft - Good way to stockpile picks. But then McD completely wastes them to draft Tebow. Thomas over Dez Bryant is very questionable at best. Trading up to take Tebow in the first is simply beyond foolish. I don't care how many people believe the Bills would have done it. The Bills are a cellar dweller and stooping to their level to overpay for at best a project player is something that will linger with us long after that ass clown is gone.

[robert ethan]

The Hillis deal looks good for the Browns because he is playing first string due to lack of production from the other runners on the team. He wasn't considered a number one back by Cleveland when they acquired him. Harrison sucked, Hillis got the ball, and he is making the most of it. Conversely Quinn isn't playing in Denver because the other players at his position are playing well. Particularly Orton. A starting QB is worth a lot more than a starting power back. If Brady ends up starting the deal will look quite different.

Orton is a better player, and a better person than Cutler. Flat out. All the draft picks Denver got in that deal were gravy. Brandon Lloyd is playing better this season than Brandon Marshall is in Miami, and every bit as good as Marshall did in his Denver years. Once again, A BETTER PLAYER AND A BETTER PERSON. It won't take long for the same to be true regarding Scheffler and the player they eventually acquired from the Lions to replace him, Dan Gronkowski. Gronk will be a better player and is already a better person.

[Medford Bronco]

we really have-- very frustrating. . .

We are the Mid 90s Az Cardinals right now. A rudderless ship.

It is a :dead: team, esp that atrocious game vs Oak. :mad:

[robert ethan]

I love it how the same fans who trash McDaniels for drafting Smith in 2009, seem to think that Josh gave away the next Champ Bailey when they dumped Alph in 2010.

Whatever seems convenient at the time.

[robert ethan]

McDaniels is a good coach, and has more brains than Gruden, Cowher, and all the other tired old names that keep popping up COMBINED.

Hey whiners, I hear that WADE PHILLIPS IS AVAILABLE!

[dogfish]

The Hillis deal looks good for the Browns because he is playing first string due to lack of production from the other runners on the team. He wasn't considered a number one back by Cleveland when they acquired him. Harrison sucked, Hillis got the ball, and he is making the most of it. Conversely Quinn isn't playing in Denver because the other players at his position are playing well. Particularly Orton. A starting QB is worth a lot more than a starting power back. If Brady ends up starting the deal will look quite different.



a good player is worth more than a bad one, regardless of position. . .

:salute:




McDaniels is a good coach, and has more brains than Gruden, Cowher, and all the other tired old names that keep popping up COMBINED.

Hey whiners, I hear that WADE PHILLIPS IS AVAILABLE!

yea, but you're just saying that because he traded for you when you were about to get cut. . .

:heh:

in all honesty, i've never doubted mcdaniels' intelligence. . . like most people, his results are what i'm not impressed with. . . if those don't turn around, i don't care how bright the guy is. . .

[Medford Bronco]

a good player is worth more than a bad one, regardless of position. . .

:salute:





yea, but you're just saying that because he traded for you when you were about to get cut. . .

:heh:

in all honesty, i've never doubted mcdaniels' intelligence. . . like most people, his results are what i'm not impressed with. . . if those don't turn around, i don't care how bright the guy is. . .


All NFL Coaches are Smarter than us lay people. Can he lead a team?

So far he has sucked and is a horrible in game manager. Our teams tend to blow leads and fold like an old deck chair in the 2nd half of games.

[Italianmobstr7]

Let's take a look at this.

Hillis trade - I didn't expect it at the time, but obviously this is one of the most one-sided trades in recent memory.

Marshall trade - WR is the least important position in the NFL and we haven't missed any production. We win this one.

Cutler trade - Chicago gave up a lot. We win this one too.

1st round pick to acquire Smith - So stupid, only Josh McDaniels could do it. This is an obvious travesty. One of those things you have to read a few times to let it sink in that an NFL coach could be so clueless as to how the draft works.

Smith for Gronkowski - Made the Smith disaster even worse. We basically gave him to the Lions. Dan Gronkowski =/= compensation. Funny to read that Smith has more TDs than Gronkowski. I have a feeling their careers will end that way.

4th round pick for Maroney - Waste of a 4th round pick. Complete waste. Bellicheck needs to write McD a thank you card for the free draft pick.

Trading down and back up in the draft - Good way to stockpile picks. But then McD completely wastes them to draft Tebow. Thomas over Dez Bryant is very questionable at best. Trading up to take Tebow in the first is simply beyond foolish. I don't care how many people believe the Bills would have done it. The Bills are a cellar dweller and stooping to their level to overpay for at best a project player is something that will linger with us long after that ass clown is gone.

Hills trade - Bad move

Marshall trade - Good move

Cutler trade - Good move

Phonz trade - Almost EVERYONE was calling Phonz a bust! Apparently McD was seeing what everyone else was. Trading a future first for him was a mistake, but all teams make mistakes in the draft (Moss, Shanny?!)

Maroney - We were in need of a RB, Maroney knows the system. I'd say we lost this trade though because Maroney has been terrible.

I like the Tebow trade. Calling him "at best" a project player is ridiculous. How do YOU have ANY idea what his ceiling is? He has a lot of potential and could be our future franchise QB. I'm not saying that for sure he is, but IMO, it was worth the risk. I think we only used 1 of our own picks to get him, so it's really not a big deal.
Thomas over Dez was a bit of a question, but I think that Thomas has a ton of potential and we weren't looking for a guy with off field issues like Dez has (a personal assistant to wake him up? Really?!).

I'm not happy about losing either. But a ton of people are overreacting. The season is only half over. Never know what could happen in the second half. Even if we have 1 bad season, it's 1 BAD season since 2000. Hopefully we get it turned around, and hopefully all these young picks with potential work out for us. Only time will tell.

[jhildebrand]

We've become a laughing stock. :tsk:

Thank God the 2010 NFL season has the Buffalo Bills and Dallas Cowboys.

They are the laughing stock of the league especially Dallas. However, there are 8 games to go :tsk:

[I Eat Staples]

The Hillis deal looks good for the Browns because he is playing first string due to lack of production from the other runners on the team. He wasn't considered a number one back by Cleveland when they acquired him. Harrison sucked, Hillis got the ball, and he is making the most of it. Conversely Quinn isn't playing in Denver because the other players at his position are playing well. Particularly Orton. A starting QB is worth a lot more than a starting power back. If Brady ends up starting the deal will look quite different.

Orton is a better player, and a better person than Cutler. Flat out. All the draft picks Denver got in that deal were gravy. Brandon Lloyd is playing better this season than Brandon Marshall is in Miami, and every bit as good as Marshall did in his Denver years. Once again, A BETTER PLAYER AND A BETTER PERSON. It won't take long for the same to be true regarding Scheffler and the player they eventually acquired from the Lions to replace him, Dan Gronkowski. Gronk will be a better player and is already a better person.

Gronkowski better than Scheffler? No. Not a chance. And Lloyd isn't nearly as talented as Marshall.


I love it how the same fans who trash McDaniels for drafting Smith in 2009, seem to think that Josh gave away the next Champ Bailey when they dumped Alph in 2010.

Whatever seems convenient at the time.

I wanted Smith to be traded. I didn't want him to be traded for a waste of a roster spot (Gronkowski).

[Ravage!!!]

Thank God the 2010 NFL season has the Buffalo Bills and Dallas Cowboys.

They are the laughing stock of the league especially Dallas. However, there are 8 games to go :tsk:

Every time Cleveland plays..... the NFL nation is again reminded

[Canmore]

Thank God the 2010 NFL season has the Buffalo Bills and Dallas Cowboys.

They are the laughing stock of the league especially Dallas. However, there are 8 games to go :tsk:

So in other words, it is going to get worse.

[Ravage!!!]

Ironically enough.... people first thought that Hillis would end up in Washington with Shanahan. Had he ended up in Washington, and had the same success he is having in Cleveland, the fans wouldn't be giving HILLIS the credit and purely giving the credit to Shanahan's "system." For that reason, and that reason only, I'm glad to see he didn't end up with Shanahan in Washington.

[robert ethan]

Gronkowski better than Scheffler? No. Not a chance. And Lloyd isn't nearly as talented as Marshall.



I wanted Smith to be traded. I didn't want him to be traded for a waste of a roster spot (Gronkowski).

Gronkowski caught more passes for more yards than Scheffler last week. Plus he is a much better blocker. Why isn't Lloyd as talented as Marshall? I think Brandon L was taken higher in his draft year, and he has had a better half season as a starter than Marshall ever did in Denver. In any case, the guy who will replace Marshall is Thomas eventually. I think DeMaryius already has close to the same production as Marshall did in his first pro season, despite his injuries.

[jhildebrand]

So in other words, it is going to get worse.

8 Ball says: Outlook not optimistic :mad:

[jhildebrand]

I love it how the same fans who trash McDaniels for drafting Smith in 2009, seem to think that Josh gave away the next Champ Bailey when they dumped Alph in 2010.

Whatever seems convenient at the time.

I hate to tell you that you couldn't be more wrong :lol:

I criticised McDaniels for trading up and giving up what he did to draft Alphonso Smith. I didn't like the pick and I certainly didn't like the loss of the following year's #1. It doesn't make sense 90% of the time. About the only time it would is if you are a stud DB away (think Revis). But to draft a guy who was affectionately known as SMURF? :confused:

Then factor into it all of the self admitted limitations the team had going into the draft. That makes it even worse!

Now, I have also offered equal praise for McDaniels seeing what the fans saw and moving Alphonso and not allowing him to be another Jarvis. He got beat out by an undrafted FA last year and Ty Law. Ty friggin law. He was beat out by 5th and 7th rounders this year!!

I lauded the trade even if it was only for a 7th. Shoot, when teams know you are done with a player, they will take their chances.

Finally, as far as alphonso's new found success goes: Maybe it is change of scenery. I have said since day one he would succeed because Detroit has a D line. A very good one. You can have sub par DB's look great when you have a d line that creates pressure with no more than 4 guys.

I have posted as much SEVERAL times as have several other posters. You can either choose to acknowledge it or pretend the "us vs them" mentality exists and is real and bury your head in the sand and pretend that people are flip flopping on something as simple as Alphonso.

[Dzone]

Sucks to be the laughing stock of the league, but that is what Mcdaniels is right now.

[atwater27]

Trading with Broncos turning into game of 'Let's make a steal'By Elliot Harrison Special to NFL.com



When Browns running back Peyton Hillis hurdled Patriots safety James Sanders on Sunday, it seemed as if for a second he was leaping over all the backs on the Broncos roster. Every thought bubble at Cleveland Browns Stadium must have said, "Thank you, Josh McDaniels."

A lot of people have been silently thanking McDaniels lately. The Hillis trade last March is just one of several moves that worked out better for everyone besides the Broncos. While any GM/head coach can bungle a trade now and then, several of McDaniels' moves just haven't panned. Rather than grill him in this space, it would be more appropriate to ask the simple question: What's Denver's plan?

In order to answer that, we have to review some of the wheelings and dealings of the head coach/de facto co-GM (with Brian Xanders).

» Traded Hillis to Cleveland for Brady Quinn, a sixth-round pick in 2011, and a conditional pick in 2012. Need there be any more words to describe this trade, other than that Hillis has more rushing yards this season than the entire Broncos' stable of backs? McDaniels kept using Knowshon Moreno in short-yardage last season in lieu of the bruiser Hillis, with negative results. It smacked a little of "playing my guy" instead of "my predecessor's guy." Now Hillis is running over everyone's guy in Ohio.


Tony Dejak / Associated Press
Peyton Hillis rushed for 184 yards and has two touchdowns against the Patriots in Week 9.

Notable Broncos trades in Josh McDaniels era
Date Team Traded Received
4/1/2009 Bears QB Jay Cutler, 2009 5th-rounder QB Kyle Orton, first-rounders in 2009 and 2010, 2009 third-round pick
4/14/2009 Dolphins WR Brandon Marshall 2010 and 2011 second-round picks
3/14/2010 Browns RB Peyton Hillis, 2011 6th-rounder, conditional 2012 pick QB Brady Quinn
9/4/2010 Lions CB Alphonso Smith TE Dan Gronkowski
» Traded their 2010 first-round pick to get cornerback Alphonso Smith in the second round of the 2009 draft. After only one year, Denver traded Smith to Lions for tight end Dan Gronkowski. Smith has almost as many interceptions (five) as Gronkowski has receptions (six) this season. Smith has more touchdowns than Gronkowski as well (1-0).

» Traded Brandon Marshall to the Dolphins for two second-round picks. While the Broncos' passing game has no doubt thrived without No. 19, is there anyone on the roster that could make a play to win a game like Marshall's catch-and-run vs. the Cowboys last year? In fairness to the Broncos, they were not likely going to be able to re-sign the petulant receiver after the 2010 season when his contract in Denver was set to expire.

» Traded quarterback Jay Cutler to the Bears. McDaniels whisked two first-round picks, Kyle Orton, as well as a third, for Cutler and a fifth-rounder 18 months ago. From the highway it looks like a heckuva deal with Denver getting a king's ransom of picks as well as Orton's big stats this year. But from the campsite, you begin to see some dead trees, starting with the fact that Orton's 2010 numbers are Enron-esque. No one cares if you put up 300-yard games if you lose two out of every three games like the Broncos have this season. While Orton has played well, McDaniels has already made it clear he's not the future by drafting Tim Tebow. The first-round picks in the Cutler trade eventually became Robert Ayers, a linebacker with promise, as well as Demaryius Thomas, who could eventually be a good receiver if he can stay healthy.

(Interesting sidebar to the Cutler deal: The only Pro Bowl player involved in the trade was Johnny Knox. who was acquired by the Bears with the fifth-round pick and went on to make the Pro Bowl as a kick returner.)

Compiling draft picks is nice; it helps build for the future. Problem is, so many people felt the future was already there in Denver.

Cutler is 27, Marshall 26, Smith 25. Hillis seems like he's been around forever, but he's only 24. While the Broncos had what appeared to be solid drafts in 2009 and 2010, none of the players taken are of Hillis' or Marshall's ilk -- at least not yet.

So what's the deal? Apparently they weren't McDaniels' guys, and he felt he could channel his old boss in New England and stockpile picks. Hey, it worked, sort of. While Denver bagged a bunch of early-round picks, it doesn't do good to draft young talent if they're not playing.

Knowshon Moreno, a first-rounder in 2009, has missed too much time this season with injuries. Even when he has played, he's averaged just 3 yards a crack. Thomas was inactive for the opener, has been on the injury report a couple of times, and has started just one game.

While the injuries aren't McDaniels' fault, he must be held accountable for dealing a wideout that caught more than 100 balls each of the last three seasons and a running back that's outrushed his entire team.

Then there's Tebow. Denver is 2-6 and last in the AFC West, and Orton is not considered the future. McDaniels might as well play him. Even if the offense and blitz schemes are a little much for Tebow to grasp, he can still play.

The former Florida standout is different from Aaron Rodgers and Philip Rivers, both of whom sat on the bench early in their careers, because he can play out of a wildcat set. He's a great athlete that could definitely use some reps in real games and witness NFL game speed. That's one big part of the learning curve for young quarterbacks, and Tebow could benefit from the experience without hurting his team. And yet, McDaniels has rarely dialed Tebow's number in their "Wild Horse" set.

Having arguably the greatest college football player ever rot on the bench is a head-scratcher. That said, not everything McDaniels has done has gone awry.

Free-agent acquisitions Jamal Williams and Kevin Vickerson have done a decent job on the defensive line. Several of McDaniels' draft picks look to be okay -- Ayers, cornerback Perrish Cox, and center J.D. Walton, to name a few. But the reality is the team on the field in Mile High is not as talented as the guys traded away. And the guys traded away were in their prime.

So was Mike Nolan, who despite transforming the Broncos' defense from the NFL's 26th-ranked unit in 2008 to seventh overall in 2009, was allowed to leave for Miami to coordinate the Dolphins' defense. Whatever the circumstances were surrounding the end of that relationship, McDaniels must take some responsibility for a very talented defensive coach exiting the building when the Broncos defense has struggled like it has (currently 23rd in the NFL). Nolan, meanwhile, has improved Miami from 22nd overall defensively to 13th.

While new defensive coordinator Don Martindale doesn't have injured pass rusher Elvis Dumervil at his disposal, the club hasn't done a strong job of drafting building blocks to fit its 3-4 system, one more small indication that the plan, not necessarily McDaniels the coach, is in question.

Make no mistake, McDaniels the coach has struggled. The Broncos have lost 14 of their last 18 games after getting off to a 6-0 start under McDaniels. That would be easier to swallow for Broncos fans if a plan was apparent. While all the results certainly aren't in, the ones that are don't look so good. Some of the many draft picks could end up panning out, but the question is whether McDaniels will be around to bear the fruit.
************************************************** *********

ouch !

Amazing article! Couldn't be more 'on the money'.:salute:

[I Eat Staples]

Gronkowski caught more passes for more yards than Scheffler last week. Plus he is a much better blocker. Why isn't Lloyd as talented as Marshall? I think Brandon L was taken higher in his draft year, and he has had a better half season as a starter than Marshall ever did in Denver. In any case, the guy who will replace Marshall is Thomas eventually. I think DeMaryius already has close to the same production as Marshall did in his first pro season, despite his injuries.

So because of one week Gronkowski will suddenly be a better player than Scheffler? :lol:

And it's not like Gronkowski exploded, he barely out-produced Scheffler who had a bad game on a team where there is a more talented TE in front of him (Pettigrew).

And we all know Marshall wasn't a high pick. Neither was Rod Smith. That means scouts missed his talent, it doesn't mean he doesn't have it. Do I really need to explain why Marshall is more talented than Lloyd?

[Ravage!!!]

Do I really need to explain why Marshall is more talented than Lloyd?

Uhh.. no. I think its pretty apparent who the better receiver is, and its really not close.

[Elevation inc]

Uhh.. no. I think its pretty apparent who the better receiver is, and its really not close.

sarcasm Rav or not??? just curious


i have never seen marshall make the amazing super catches consistently lloyd has this year or burn Db's like lloyd does, we all like physical Wr's like marshall and what not but lloyd has the most 40 yd completions in the NFL and 3/4 of those were horrible balls by orton where lloyd made a sick catch..I will take that anyday over a guy like marshall and his ten YPC avg...i think its a wack comparison anyways they are 2 elite Wr's at the moment with different skill sets, although marshall is having a somewhat off year in miami.....probally somewhat to do with qb play.


orton isnt making lloyd have good stats though, lloyd is doing it all and is the top Wr in the league right now hands down.....his only threat may be roddy white....

so yeah marshall may be more physical and get tough yds here and there, but his route running, zone setting, catching ability and athletic ability arent even close to lloyd at the moment....

[turftoad]

sarcasm Rav or not??? just curious


i have never seen marshall make the amazing super catches consistently lloyd has this year or burn Db's like lloyd does, we all like physical Wr's like marshall and what not but lloyd has the most 40 yd completions in the NFL and 3/4 of those were horrible balls by orton where lloyd made a sick catch..I will take that anyday over a guy like marshall and his ten YPC avg...i think its a wack comparison anyways they are 2 elite Wr's at the moment with different skill sets, although marshall is having a somewhat off year in miami.....probally somewhat to do with qb play.


orton isnt making lloyd have good stats though, lloyd is doing it all and is the top Wr in the league right now hands down.....his only threat may be roddy white....

so yeah marshall may be more physical and get tough yds here and there, but his route running, zone setting, catching ability and athletic ability arent even close to lloyd at the moment....

Ummmm, you ask 32 teams which one they would take and 31 would take Marshall...... except the Broncos. :shocked:

Don't see Lloyd doing stuff like this. This was the game winner BTW.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPINVd9zBko

[I Eat Staples]

Lloyd has been a bellow-average player his entire career. This is his first good year, he may have talent but he's certainly not consistent and he rarely puts it to use.

Not to mention Marshall is physically superior.

[Dzone]

Then there's Tebow. Denver is 2-6 and last in the AFC West, and Orton is not considered the future. McDaniels might as well play him. Even if the offense and blitz schemes are a little much for Tebow to grasp, he can still play.

The former Florida standout is different from Aaron Rodgers and Philip Rivers, both of whom sat on the bench early in their careers, because he can play out of a wildcat set. He's a great athlete that could definitely use some reps in real games and witness NFL game speed. That's one big part of the learning curve for young quarterbacks, and Tebow could benefit from the experience without hurting his team. And yet, McDaniels has rarely dialed Tebow's number in their "Wild Horse" set.

Having arguably the greatest college football player ever rot on the bench is a head-scratcher.
Agreed. Tebow should be playing more and trying to get victories.

[Dzone]

If Orton keeps putting up big stats, he will garner a 1st round draft pick from a team desperate for a quarterback....That pick could be used for an elite LB, DL or Safety...then we have TEBOW backed up by Quinn...

[Elevation inc]

If Orton keeps putting up big stats, he will garner a 1st round draft pick from a team desperate for a quarterback....That pick could be used for an elite LB, DL or Safety...then we have TEBOW backed up by Quinn...

i doubt a first but a second from a team like buffalo, San fran, Carolina, Minnesota, Arizona.....i could easily see that....

[I Eat Staples]

If Orton keeps putting up big stats, he will garner a 1st round draft pick from a team desperate for a quarterback....That pick could be used for an elite LB, DL or Safety...then we have TEBOW backed up by Quinn...

It's a pretty big stretch to think Tebow can be a star in the NFL and Quinn has shown exactly what he's capable of. So unless the elite LB, DL, or Safety throw TD passes we're out of luck.

Not to mention, McD would probably waste the pick.

[robert ethan]

And it's not like Gronkowski exploded, he barely out-produced Scheffler who had a bad game on a team where there is a more talented TE in front of him (Pettigrew).

And we all know Marshall wasn't a high pick. Neither was Rod Smith. That means scouts missed his talent, it doesn't mean he doesn't have it. Do I really need to explain why Marshall is more talented than Lloyd?

Gronkowski is not technically a rookie, but he spent most of his first year as a pro on the practice squad. He came to the Broncos just before the start of the regular season, so he had to learn the system on the fly. Scheffler didn't catch his sixth pass until the 12th game of his rookie season. So Gronkowski is ahead of him in that regard. But the big thing is Gronk is an all round tight end, not just a situational player. He can fill in at fullback, and is an asset even when he isn't part of the pass game. Most importantly he is the consumate team player and isn't going to backstab the coaching staff for personal reasons. There are a lot of aspects that go into determining who is "the better player" at the position aside from how many passes they catch.

All the same things could be said, basically, regarding Marshall and Lloyd. You think that Brandon is going to live happily ever after in Miami? He is worse than Moss and Owens in terms of ego and self-absorbtion. I'd say his shelf life there is about 2 years. If you add the draft value chart of the two second rounders the Broncos got for Marshall it comes out to about the 17th pick of the first round of the draft. That is a steal for Denver, any way you slice it.

[Tned]

sarcasm Rav or not??? just curious


i have never seen marshall make the amazing super catches consistently lloyd has this year or burn Db's like lloyd does, we all like physical Wr's like marshall and what not but lloyd has the most 40 yd completions in the NFL and 3/4 of those were horrible balls by orton where lloyd made a sick catch..I will take that anyday over a guy like marshall and his ten YPC avg...i think its a wack comparison anyways they are 2 elite Wr's at the moment with different skill sets, although marshall is having a somewhat off year in miami.....probally somewhat to do with qb play.


orton isnt making lloyd have good stats though, lloyd is doing it all and is the top Wr in the league right now hands down.....his only threat may be roddy white....

so yeah marshall may be more physical and get tough yds here and there, but his route running, zone setting, catching ability and athletic ability arent even close to lloyd at the moment....

Lloyd is having a great season, but few would call him elite because he's doing it in his 8th year, after being benched/inactive virtually his entire 7th season.

There is no question that if he keeps this level of play up for a few years, he'll be considered elite, right now he's a guy with a forgettable career having a great year.

That said, there is no arguing that this team would be even better if the WR corp was Marshall, Lloyd and Royal.

[I Eat Staples]

Gronkowski is not technically a rookie, but he spent most of his first year as a pro on the practice squad. He came to the Broncos just before the start of the regular season, so he had to learn the system on the fly. Scheffler didn't catch his sixth pass until the 12th game of his rookie season. So Gronkowski is ahead of him in that regard. But the big thing is Gronk is an all round tight end, not just a situational player. He can fill in at fullback, and is an asset even when he isn't part of the pass game. Most importantly he is the consumate team player and isn't going to backstab the coaching staff for personal reasons. There are a lot of aspects that go into determining who is "the better player" at the position aside from how many passes they catch.

All the same things could be said, basically, regarding Marshall and Lloyd. You think that Brandon is going to live happily ever after in Miami? He is worse than Moss and Owens in terms of ego and self-absorbtion. I'd say his shelf life there is about 2 years. If you add the draft value chart of the two second rounders the Broncos got for Marshall it comes out to about the 17th pick of the first round of the draft. That is a steal for Denver, any way you slice it.

A few things.

1. I agree that trading Marshall worked out well for us simply because WR is not an important position. You can't "add the value" of two 2nd round picks though. :lol:

2. It doesn't really matter what Scheffler did in his rookie year, he has a lot more talent than Gronkowski, who was drafted in the 7th round and on the practice squad for a reason. Also, Scheffler never "stabbed the coaching staff in the back". He did absolutely nothing wrong at all, in fact.

3. Are you a) Dan Gronkowski, or b) related to Dan Gronkowski? If not, why are you so in love with him?

[HORSEPOWER 56]

The Hillis deal looks good for the Browns because he is playing first string due to lack of production from the other runners on the team. He wasn't considered a number one back by Cleveland when they acquired him. Harrison sucked, Hillis got the ball, and he is making the most of it.

You mean just like he did in Denver when all the guys in front of him went on IR? Yeah, he was DOMINANT until he himself tore a hammy making a great catch. Looks like a trend, put the ball in his hands, he produces. Why was this so hard to see?


Conversely Quinn isn't playing in Denver because the other players at his position are playing well. Particularly Orton. A starting QB is worth a lot more than a starting power back. If Brady ends up starting the deal will look quite different.

Only if he starts, AND his starting is productive and leads to WINS. Orton is productive and we are not winning. The Browns are WINNING because Hillis is so productive.


Orton is a better player, and a better person than Cutler. Flat out. All the draft picks Denver got in that deal were gravy.

Better person? Probably. Better player? Still up for debate. Cutler is more physically talented than Orton but orton appears to this point to have a better head on his shoulders. I think it's a wash. I think Cutler would be putting up the same numbers Orton is in this pass happy system.


Brandon Lloyd is playing better this season than Brandon Marshall is in Miami, and every bit as good as Marshall did in his Denver years. Once again, A BETTER PLAYER AND A BETTER PERSON.

I must humbly disagree. Marshall has had off-field issues in his checkered past, but Lloyd is far from a saint. The guy has been chased out of two major markets (SF and Wash) for failure to produce once he got paid. Lloyd is a paid mercenary who is playing to his potential for the first time in his career because he's broke and wants a big payday in a contract year. He is and always has been a "play when I want to" guy. I suspect that at season's end, some team (probably Denver) will pay him big bucks based on this season's performance and most likely, he'll shut it down like he always has in the past. Don't get me wrong I love what he's doing for Denver, I just don't expect it to last.

No matter what you think of him personally, Marshall is a PROVEN top 5 WR. 3 seasons of over 100 catches, countless broken tackles, and the ability to do it all (people say he's not a deep threat but he's caught plenty of 30+ yard passes in his career).


It won't take long for the same to be true regarding Scheffler and the player they eventually acquired from the Lions to replace him, Dan Gronkowski. Gronk will be a better player and is already a better person.

You honestly think that Gronkowski will EVER become that type of guy? This is the boldest prediction of all. Scheffler's current career numbers right now are probably higher than Gronkowski's numbers will be for his entire NFL career - which probably won't be much longer. How is Gronk a better person? Because Scheffler didn't like McDaniels and allegedly wished for last season to end because he wasn't getting playing time and we were losing ball games in which he thought he could help? Gronk is lucky to even have a J-O-B. Scheffler is 100 times the player that Gronkowski currently is. If Gronkowski somehow "breaks out" and becomes some phenom 7th round pick, I'll admit I was wrong, but the guy has 6 catches in 8 games and is a mediocre blocker playing in a system that isn't exactly TE friendly. Maybe some day he'll be the guy you paint him to be, but it won't be playing for McDaniels and probably won't be in Denver.

[Tned]

The Hillis deal looks good for the Browns because he is playing first string due to lack of production from the other runners on the team. He wasn't considered a number one back by Cleveland when they acquired him. Harrison sucked, Hillis got the ball, and he is making the most of it. Conversely Quinn isn't playing in Denver because the other players at his position are playing well. Particularly Orton. A starting QB is worth a lot more than a starting power back. If Brady ends up starting the deal will look quite different.
.

I know that not many followed the Browns offseason (understandably, since we are Broncos fans) and trashed me for posting updates on him, but your facts are a bit off.

Pretty much from the point that Cleveland traded for him it was stated that he would be in the mix for carries. As OTA's and minicamps progressed, the team, fans and media became more impressed with him. The way he played in TC made him a real candidate for carries.

In the opening game he split carries with Harrison.

Now, the rookie getting hurt (Hardesty or something like that) made it more of an open competition than it might have otherwise been, as they had big plans for the rookie. However, beyond that, Hillis was in the mix for carries from the time they traded for him.

[robert ethan]

Scheffler was benched in the most critical game of last season for the team. No coach, unless he has a death wish, would do that indiscriminately. McDaniels, apparently in consultation with team leaders, felt the team was better off playing WITHOUT SCHEFFLER AND MARSHALL in a do or die situation. That tells you all you need to know about those two. They put PERSONAL GREED ahead of team interest. If they did it once, they'll do it again. Anything they got for them in trade is bonus. Cutler was pretty much in the same boat. You can't build a grand structure on a ROTTEN FOUNDATION. In terms of team chemistry and ultimately team success, Cutler, Marshall, and Scheffler were ROTTEN foundation posts. The only thing to do is rip them out and start over. I don't know a lot about Hillis, but I have my doubts about him as well. The team is FAR BETTER OFF without those players in the long run. There may be a few short term doubts and doubters, but ultimately you will see that McDaniels was right.

[Jake Klug]

Scheffler was benched in the most critical game of last season for the team. No coach, unless he has a death wish, would do that indiscriminately. McDaniels, apparently in consultation with team leaders, felt the team was better off playing WITHOUT SCHEFFLER AND MARSHALL in a do or die situation. That tells you all you need to know about those two. They put PERSONAL GREED ahead of team interest. If they did it once, they'll do it again. Anything they got for them in trade is bonus. Cutler was pretty much in the same boat. You can't build a grand structure on a ROTTEN FOUNDATION. In terms of team chemistry and ultimately team success, Cutler, Marshall, and Scheffler were ROTTEN foundation posts. The only thing to do is rip them out and start over. I don't know a lot about Hillis, but I have my doubts about him as well. The team is FAR BETTER OFF without those players in the long run. There may be a few short term doubts and doubters, but ultimately you will see that McDaniels was right.

Did Scheffler get a DUI?

[Tned]

Scheffler was benched in the most critical game of last season for the team. No coach, unless he has a death wish, would do that indiscriminately. McDaniels, apparently in consultation with team leaders, felt the team was better off playing WITHOUT SCHEFFLER AND MARSHALL in a do or die situation. That tells you all you need to know about those two. They put PERSONAL GREED ahead of team interest. If they did it once, they'll do it again. Anything they got for them in trade is bonus. Cutler was pretty much in the same boat. You can't build a grand structure on a ROTTEN FOUNDATION. In terms of team chemistry and ultimately team success, Cutler, Marshall, and Scheffler were ROTTEN foundation posts. The only thing to do is rip them out and start over. I don't know a lot about Hillis, but I have my doubts about him as well. The team is FAR BETTER OFF without those players in the long run. There may be a few short term doubts and doubters, but ultimately you will see that McDaniels was right.

Someone might be able to find and post, but I believe there are quotes from the 'team leaders' saying that they did NOT go to McDaniels and ask him to bench those players.

As to Hillis, while some have tried to go with the "he's a one dimensional runner, only good for short yardage work", I think you might be the first to insinuate he wasn't a team player, or in some way "rotten". When on the Broncos and now on the Browns, I have seen nothing but comments about how he is the very definition of team player.

In fact, once you go there, if you buy into everything McDaniels has said about wanting team first players, guys that play hard, don't have problems off the field, etc., it makes the refusal to give Hillis a shot last year, and his trade look even worse.

[robert ethan]

Someone might be able to find and post, but I believe there are quotes from the 'team leaders' saying that they did NOT go to McDaniels and ask him to bench those players.

As to Hillis, while some have tried to go with the "he's a one dimensional runner, only good for short yardage work", I think you might be the first to insinuate he wasn't a team player, or in some way "rotten". When on the Broncos and now on the Browns, I have seen nothing but comments about how he is the very definition of team player.

In fact, once you go there, if you buy into everything McDaniels has said about wanting team first players, guys that play hard, don't have problems off the field, etc., it makes the refusal to give Hillis a shot last year, and his trade look even worse.

I didn't suggest that the players went to McDaniels and asked him to bench Marshall and Scheffler, but I believe that Josh consulted with them before doing so. If those two wanted their season to be over, they got their wish. There was pretty much no other way to handle the situation.

As for Hillis, someone posted an article here a couple days back suggesting that part of the reason for his trade was that he wasn't giving full effort as a blocker. I think Hillis thinks himself a running back first and foremost. Perhaps he is right, but under the system McDaniels wanted to use he would have to block first and run second. I don't know a lot about his situation as I mentioned, but to get a first round QB for a 7th round FB is pretty much a no brainer deal. If you recall, Quinn was considered a top 5 talent in his draft year. His numbers when he has played are no worse than most top QBs through their first couple of seasons. It's way too early to write him off.

The other aspect to this deal is that quarterbacks mature about 3 to 5 years later than running backs as a rule. A lot of RB have their best years before they are 25 or 26 years old. Most QBs have their best years after that age. It's a turtle and hare situation. Logic tells you that the RB will look better early on.

[dogfish]

I don't know a lot about Hillis, but I have my doubts about him as well. The team is FAR BETTER OFF without those players in the long run. There may be a few short term doubts and doubters, but ultimately you will see that McDaniels was right.

gronk, you done lost yo mind!

SMH



I don't know a lot about his situation as I mentioned, but to get a first round QB for a 7th round FB is pretty much a no brainer deal.

now, that one you nailed. . . trading hillis for quinn most certainly makes our front office look like they have no brains. . .

[Canmore]

...now, that one you nailed. . . trading hillis for quinn most certainly makes our front office look like they have no brains. . .

lol :D

[Tned]

As for Hillis, someone posted an article here a couple days back suggesting that part of the reason for his trade was that he wasn't giving full effort as a blocker. I think Hillis thinks himself a running back first and foremost. Perhaps he is right, but under the system McDaniels wanted to use he would have to block first and run second. I don't know a lot about his situation as I mentioned, but to get a first round QB for a 7th round FB is pretty much a no brainer deal. If you recall, Quinn was considered a top 5 talent in his draft year. His numbers when he has played are no worse than most top QBs through their first couple of seasons. It's way too early to write him off.


More like his critics on message boards have been saying he isn't a good blocker (mostly they have been talking about pass blocking, but in terms of run blocking some of that to). The fact that he was the lead blocker for McFadden and Jones success aside, what the Broncos have needed the past two years IS a running back, not a FB. Josh has stated often that they won't use two back sets regularly, so the issue was whether or not Hillis is a quality RB.

Here is a scout.com article referring to Hillis FootballOutsiders numbers:


Obviously, the main man here is Peyton Hillis. We’ve discussed him in several Xs and Os articles, and he’s a great story – not only is he an appealing guy; he also presents yet another wonderful opportunity to make fun of Josh McDaniels. It shows up in the advanced numbers – among qualifying running backs, Hillis ranks sixth in DYAR and fifth in DVOA, which means that in both play-by-play and cumulative efficiency, he’s one of the best running backs in the NFL. More importantly, he ranks first in the league in Success Rate, which reflects the ability to make specific and key gains in crucial situations – it rewards a three-yard run on second-and-2 or third-and-goal from the three-yard line and tends to ignore that same three-yard run on first-and-15. So, from just about any standpoint you care to mention, Hillis is among the NFL’s most effective offensive weapons.

...

The Browns’ offensive line, as reflected by our Adjusted Line Yards metrics, is probably more of a product of Hillis’ excellence than the other way around, though I have written before that Hillis may not be able to find a better set of blocking schemes for his abilities anywhere in the NFL. Cleveland currently ranks 19th in overall ALY, second in Power Success (Percentage of runs on third or fourth down, two yards or less to go, that achieved a first down or touchdown), and seventh in the percentage of plays in which a runner gets back to the line of scrimmage or gains yardage. Against the Patriots last week, Hillis ran the ball 29 times and had one negative play. One. That’s ridiculous, and should be a very good indicator of the kind of player we’re dealing with here.

Rest of the article here: http://cle.scout.com/2/1021610.html

As you can see, beyond just rushing yards (where he is around 11th, having not become the full time starter until game three, and then having a bad thigh injury for three games) and TD's scored (7 either leads RB's or is near the lead) and receptions (where he is second on the team and 5th or 6th among RB's in the league), he is also among the best in the league in the football outsider measurements.

I have to disagree with you about a 1st round QB (who has been a complete flop in the NFL) being traded for a 7th round FB (who proved he could be a dominant runner in his rookie season) being a no brainer. It is only a no brainer if you assume that it wasn't NFL professionals with the benefit of game tape, but instead simply some fans making a trade based on their draft positions and ignoring their NFL production.

I won't crucify McDaniels over it, because Orton wasn't very good last year, and Simms was worse. The Broncos needed a QB and McDaniels had long ago decided that Moreno was his horse and that Hillis was not going to be in the mix even when the other RBs were hurt or innefective. So, based on those McDaniels created factors, I understand why the trade was made.

The real issue was not the trade this offseason, but the refusal to hand Hillis the ball in '09, when Buck was hurt and Moreno was worn out. If he had done so, McDaniels would have seen last year what Mangini is seeing this year.

[Canmore]

...The real issue was not the trade this offseason, but the refusal to hand Hillis the ball in '09, when Buck was hurt and Moreno was worn out. If he had done so, McDaniels would have seen last year what Mangini is seeing this year.

And we wouldn't have given away a fourth round pick for Maroney. Another great move by McDaniels.

[robert ethan]

More like his critics on message boards have been saying he isn't a good blocker (mostly they have been talking about pass blocking, but in terms of run blocking some of that to). The fact that he was the lead blocker for McFadden and Jones success aside, what the Broncos have needed the past two years IS a running back, not a FB. Josh has stated often that they won't use two back sets regularly, so the issue was whether or not Hillis is a quality RB.

Here is a scout.com article referring to Hillis FootballOutsiders numbers:



As you can see, beyond just rushing yards (where he is around 11th, having not become the full time starter until game three, and then having a bad thigh injury for three games) and TD's scored (7 either leads RB's or is near the lead) and receptions (where he is second on the team and 5th or 6th among RB's in the league), he is also among the best in the league in the football outsider measurements.

I have to disagree with you about a 1st round QB (who has been a complete flop in the NFL) being traded for a 7th round FB (who proved he could be a dominant runner in his rookie season) being a no brainer. It is only a no brainer if you assume that it wasn't NFL professionals with the benefit of game tape, but instead simply some fans making a trade based on their draft positions and ignoring their NFL production.

I won't crucify McDaniels over it, because Orton wasn't very good last year, and Simms was worse. The Broncos needed a QB and McDaniels had long ago decided that Moreno was his horse and that Hillis was not going to be in the mix even when the other RBs were hurt or innefective. So, based on those McDaniels created factors, I understand why the trade was made.

The real issue was not the trade this offseason, but the refusal to hand Hillis the ball in '09, when Buck was hurt and Moreno was worn out. If he had done so, McDaniels would have seen last year what Mangini is seeing this year.


I'm not questioning Hillis efficiency this season so far, but you can't base a trade on a handful of games. There is almost nothing in Hillis past to suggest that he could become a full time feature back in the NFL. There is also little to suggest that it will last very long. As for Quinn, it is way to early to write him off. There are dozens of quarterbacks who went on to great careers without showing much before the age of 25. Aaron Rodgers and Phillip Rivers didn't become starters until they were 25. Tom Brady was 24.

[Elevation inc]

Lloyd is having a great season, but few would call him elite because he's doing it in his 8th year, after being benched/inactive virtually his entire 7th season.

There is no question that if he keeps this level of play up for a few years, he'll be considered elite, right now he's a guy with a forgettable career having a great year.

That said, there is no arguing that this team would be even better if the WR corp was Marshall, Lloyd and Royal.

fair enough:beer:

[Tned]

I'm not questioning Hillis efficiency this season so far, but you can't base a trade on a handful of games. There is almost nothing in Hillis past to suggest that he could become a full time feature back in the NFL. There is also little to suggest that it will last very long. As for Quinn, it is way to early to write him off. There are dozens of quarterbacks who went on to great careers without showing much before the age of 25. Aaron Rodgers and Phillip Rivers didn't become starters until they were 25. Tom Brady was 24.

Sounds like you're applying two different standards/measuring sticks to support your position that the former first rounder who has been a bust still has potential, but that the former 7th rounder that for the second time in his short career has gotten a chance to start, and dominate, is a flash in the pan.

[topscribe]

Here's the problem I have with McDaniels: All the "head cases." So he jettisons
Cutler, and the idea we get is that he is not with the program. In his case, McD
might have been correct, judging from Cutler's performances since.

Then came Marshall. Temperamental. Past minor scrapes with the law. Little
shows of petulance on the practice field. But you you know what?--Put him in
a game, and he turns into a monster.

I just wonder whether putting an arm around him and saying something to the
effect of, "Look, I've got your back. Let's talk," might have made a difference.
(Maybe that happened, I don't know. But, judging admittedly from the outside, I
just don't see that personality type in McDaniels.) But I understand he wanted
out of town, and he was apparently judged intractable, so off he went.

Next up: Scheffler. And now the Broncos don't have a receiving threat at TE,
at least, one that would cause a great amount of concern to the defense.
Supposedly, he was another "me" guy.

How many "head cases" are supposed to come out of one draft? One begins
to wonder just where the personality problem lies.


Then there are the draft choices and trades. Alphonso Smith comes as a 2nd
rounder, at the cost of a 1st rounder. He struggles - for some reason - in
Denver, so he is shipped off to Detroit where he apparently is carving out a
fine season for a 2nd year CB.

Don't even talk to me about Richard Quinn. I don't feel like throwing a temper
tantrum this morning.

And so we come to Tebow. Maybe he will be a star. Maybe a bust. Likely
somewhere in the middle. Who knows? He hasn't played; he is a "project."
Trading up, giving away sorely needed draft selections that could be used to
upgrade a talent-depleted defense, for a "project"? Orton's $9 million contract
for 2011 suggests Tebow probably will not start next year.

Finally, there's 2-6. Some of it isn't the coach's fault. There have been injuries.
But there are those repeated 4th down gambles. And the failure to correct
the sieve that exists in . . . well, I was about to call it a "run defense." A
failed offensive running game, while two castoff RBs are doing well elsewhere.

I know certain players have publicly supported McDaniels. So what else are
they going to do? They work for him!

I don't know what is going on over at Dove Valley. I'm not privy, of course.
But I think I recognize some red flags waving in the wind . . .

-----

[HORSEPOWER 56]

Here's the problem I have with McDaniels: All the "head cases." So he jettisons
Cutler, and the idea we get is that he is not with the program. In his case, McD
might have been correct, judging from Cutler's performances since.

Then came Marshall. Temperamental. Past minor scrapes with the law. Little
shows of petulance on the practice field. But you you know what?--Put him in
a game, and he turns into a monster.

I just wonder whether putting an arm around him and saying something to the
effect of, "Look, I've got your back. Let's talk," might have made a difference.
(Maybe that happened, I don't know. But, judging admittedly from the outside, I
just don't see that personality type in McDaniels.) But I understand he wanted
out of town, and he was apparently judged intractable, so off he went.

Next up: Scheffler. And now the Broncos don't have a receiving threat at TE,
at least, one that would cause a great amount of concern to the defense.
Supposedly, he was another "me" guy.

How many "head cases" are supposed to come out of one draft? One begins
to wonder just where the personality problem lies.


Then there are the draft choices and trades. Alphonso Smith comes as a 2nd
rounder, at the cost of a 1st rounder. He struggles - for some reason - in
Denver, so he is shipped off to Detroit where he apparently is carving out a
find season for a 2nd year CB.

Don't even talk to me about Richard Quinn. I don't feel like throwing a temper
tantrum this morning.

And so we come to Tebow. Maybe he will be a star. Maybe a bust. Likely
somewhere in the middle. Who knows? He hasn't played; he is a "project."
Trading up, giving away sorely needed draft selections that could be used to
upgrade a talent-depleted defense, for a "project"? Orton's $9 million contract
for 2001 suggests Tebow probably will not start next year.

Finally, there's 2-6. Some of it isn't the coach's fault. There have been injuries.
But there are those repeated 4th down gambles. And the failure to correct
the sieve that exists in . . . well, I was about to call it a "run defense." A
failed offensive running game, while two castoff RBs are doing well elsewhere.

I know certain players have publicly supported McDaniels. So what else are
they going to do? They work for him!

I don't know what is going on over at Dove Valley. I'm not privy, of course.
But I think I recognize some red flags waving in the wind . . .

-----


Great post, topper...

[dogfish]

I'm not questioning Hillis efficiency this season so far, but you can't base a trade on a handful of games. There is almost nothing in Hillis past to suggest that he could become a full time feature back in the NFL. There is also little to suggest that it will last very long. As for Quinn, it is way to early to write him off. There are dozens of quarterbacks who went on to great careers without showing much before the age of 25. Aaron Rodgers and Phillip Rivers didn't become starters until they were 25. Tom Brady was 24.

bahahaha!

hillis and quinn are in their third and fourth seasons in the league, respectively, and you want to act like we don't have a large enough sample size to make any determinations? nice try. . .

also, the way hillis played here in '08 was more than enough to suggest that he was going to be a damn good back-- plenty of broncos fans saw it, it was discussed quite thoroughly at the time. . .

but hey, sure, too early to say. . . and maybe knowshon's going to be better than chris johnson some day too, right? too early to say. . .

i love how you constantly gush about a 7th round TE, but continue to try to paint hillis with the "7th rounder is just a flash in the pan" brush. . . oh well, not like anyone's buying it. . .

[Tned]

Great post, topper...

Agreed

[Tned]

Further to the things I've posted yesterday and in the past about Hillis being in the mix for carries from the day he was traded, Phil Simms on the CBS broadcast of the Browns/Jets game and referred to something that Hillis told him when they interviewed him this week. Hillis said that shortly after being traded Mangini called him to welcome him to the team and told Hillis that he could be a 1,000 yard rusher in Cleveland. I can't remember the rest of what they said, but basically Mangini told him from day one he would have a chance to compete for RB playing time.

[robert ethan]

Sounds like you're applying two different standards/measuring sticks to support your position that the former first rounder who has been a bust still has potential, but that the former 7th rounder that for the second time in his short career has gotten a chance to start, and dominate, is a flash in the pan.

There are two different measuring sticks, by nature of the positions they play. As I mentioned before, most RB peak by the age of 25, while most QBs will peak around 30. Quinn and Hillis are about the same age I think, so it stands to reason that Hillis is going to be more productive at this stage. Quinn's numbers, as I also mentioned, are not too different from most highly regarded QBs over their first 15 or 20 starts. Brady's best years are ahead of him, although not necessarily in Denver.

Hillis played 4 full years of college ball and TOTALED less than 1,000 yards rushing. For his career. Averaging less than 5 ypc. Those aren't the stats of a future NFL starter. Tebow probably rushed for 1,000 yards in a season and averaged more than 5 per carry. In 2 seasons and 26 games Hillis TOTALED less than 400 rushing yards as a Bronco. Why would you assume that he is a full time feature back based on those 6 years of college and pro?

[Tned]

There are two different measuring sticks, by nature of the positions they play. As I mentioned before, most RB peak by the age of 25, while most QBs will peak around 30. Quinn and Hillis are about the same age I think, so it stands to reason that Hillis is going to be more productive at this stage. Quinn's numbers, as I also mentioned, are not too different from most highly regarded QBs over their first 15 or 20 starts. Brady's best years are ahead of him, although not necessarily in Denver.

Hillis played 4 full years of college ball and TOTALED less than 1,000 yards rushing. For his career. Averaging less than 5 ypc. Those aren't the stats of a future NFL starter. Tebow probably rushed for 1,000 yards in a season and averaged more than 5 per carry. In 2 seasons and 26 games Hillis TOTALED less than 400 rushing yards as a Bronco. Why would you assume that he is a full time feature back based on those 6 years of college and pro?

You do realize that he was the lead blocker for McFadden and Jones for three of his four years, so he got limited carries. Right?

Anyway, it's futile to have a discussion with someone who has a mind made up and will twist anything to support that. If you want to discount not only his '08 Broncos performance, but also his '10 Browns performance, then it really isn't worth discussing any more.

[atwater27]

Jiminy Christmas... Hillis has ran over Baltimore, the Jets, and had a solid all around game against Pittsburgh... Dude has scored 9 TD's in 9 games in the process...

But he's just a sucky ass white boy fullback.

[robert ethan]

Look, PAL, it wasn't me who started a thread MOCKING THE BRONCO'S TRADES. I'm just trying to add a little perspective and balance. If that constitutes "having your mind made up" then you need to redefine the words in the dictionary.

[Tned]

Jiminy Christmas... Hillis has ran over Baltimore, the Jets, and had a solid all around game against Pittsburgh... Dude has scored 9 TD's in 9 games in the process...

But he's just a sucky ass white boy fullback.

It amazes me the degree to which people will either rewrite history, or ignore current play, in order to support their opinions.