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KCL
11-12-2010, 11:50 AM
http://www.kansascity.com/2010/11/11/2423519/taking-a-look-back-at-the-trade.html

Taking a look back at the trade that altered the futures of AFC West rivals


Time has passed, and three AFC teams now live with decisions they made so many months ago.

It has been more than 20 months since Matt Cassel became a commodity that several NFL teams were interested in. During the 2008 season, Cassel stepped in as New England’s starting quarterback after Tom Brady suffered a season-ending knee injury. The Patriots went 11-5 that year. That got other teams’ attention, and Cassel was a wanted man.

“A crazy time,” Cassel said this week. “I was just eager to find a home.”

Kansas City, of course, traded a second-round pick to the Patriots for Cassel and linebacker Mike Vrabel. Denver’s first-year coach Josh McDaniels, Cassel’s former coordinator in New England, lost out on the quarterback he had targeted — and then lost Pro Bowl starter Jay Cutler, who demanded a trade once he heard about his coach’s interest in bringing Cassel to Denver. The Broncos dealt Cutler and a fifth-round pick in 2009 to Chicago for Kyle Orton and the Bears’ first-round draft picks in 2009 and 2010 and a third-rounder in 2009.

Cassel now laughs about the ordeal that affected the three teams. Each has tried to make the best of its decision. All have moved forward.

But now with the draft picks selected and players being sized up for the long term, which team got the best deal?

Cassel is the Chiefs’ starter, but he is polarizing in Kansas City. He doesn’t make enough mistakes for the team to look toward someone else, but he makes enough that many fans are unsatisfied. Vrabel is 35 years old, and his value now is more as an influential teammate and locker-room leader than a big-play defender.

The Patriots turned Kansas City’s draft pick into safety Patrick Chung, a starter but perhaps a player who will never be a star. And Denver has had some success with Orton, but it hasn’t cashed in on the draft picks it received from Chicago. First-rounder Robert Ayers still isn’t healthy at linebacker, they gave up on cornerback Alphonso Smith, and they dealt the third-round choice to Pittsburgh, which used it to nab starting wide receiver Mike Wallace.

Even Chicago did better in the draft, using the fifth-round selection on Pro Bowl receiver Johnny Knox.

“We’re pleased with our situation,” McDaniels said. “Everybody’s got their own beliefs in terms of how things turn out anytime you make a decision like that.”

Gil Brandt is a former NFL personnel man who’s now an NFL.com analyst. He said that, after all the movement last year, the Broncos emerged as the loser. They traded the Bears’ 2010 first-round selection to Seattle so that they could move up in the 2009 draft to select Smith in the second round. Smith didn’t start a game for Denver last year, and the Broncos traded him in September to Detroit for Dan Gronkowski, now the team’s second-string tight end. Denver gave up on Smith after one season. To make matters worse, Smith has five interceptions for the Lions, a signal that perhaps Denver dumped him too soon.

“They didn’t maximize those picks,” Brandt said.

The Patriots have a history of eventually surfacing as the winner on similar deals. After all, they looked brilliant earlier this season after trading receiver Randy Moss to Minnesota for a third-round pick. Four weeks after the trade, the Vikings cut Moss.

But Brandt said that this time, it was the Chiefs who got the better deal — and not necessarily because Cassel was involved. Brandt said that Cassel has improved in his time with Kansas City, but he said Thursday that he wasn’t sure whom he’d rather have between Cassel and Chung, the young safety, eventually saying he’d prefer the quarterback because of that position’s value to his team.

But if the Chiefs hadn’t also received Vrabel, who’s been a mentor to several of Kansas City’s young defenders, Brandt said the Patriots might have emerged again as the winner.

“To me,” Brandt said, “Vrabel is the one that is the really plus in this whole deal. I would say they’re pretty close. The fact that Vrabel is there tips the scale. I would probably say that Chung and Cassel are even. … We still have the wild card, Mike Vrabel.”

That’s just one opinion, and if you ask each side, they’ll all say they’re pleased with how things turned out. They might also admit that things haven’t been flawless, either. Cassel said that, as he looks back, he didn’t concern himself much with where he ended up or the drama that led him there — as long as he got a chance to start.

“It was more one of those situations of me just wanting the opportunity to play again,” he said. “I felt that I had the ability to do so and anywhere that I was going to go, I was going to be happy about.”

McDaniels said he maintains admiration for Cassel, saying he’s a good fit for the kind of offense Kansas City runs. McDaniels said he doesn’t regret how things went early in 2009, adding that, whoever won or lost in their respective deals, all three teams have moved forward with the decisions they made.

“Our football team and our organization moved in a positive direction toward what we could try to build here,” he said. “We didn’t focus too much on what wasn’t here anymore.

“All we can do is control what we can control and coach the players that we have.”

Northman
11-12-2010, 12:00 PM
The Patriots turned Kansas City’s draft pick into safety Patrick Chung, a starter but perhaps a player who will never be a star. And Denver has had some success with Orton, but it hasn’t cashed in on the draft picks it received from Chicago. First-rounder Robert Ayers still isn’t healthy at linebacker, they gave up on cornerback Alphonso Smith, and they dealt the third-round choice to Pittsburgh, which used it to nab starting wide receiver Mike Wallace.

My god that stings.

topscribe
11-12-2010, 12:22 PM
The author has an inflated opinion of Cassel, IMO. Despite benefitting from the #1
rushing game in the league and a decent defense, he still has not completed
60% of his passes, his YPA is a dismal 6.9, and his QBR has not reached 90.

The reason for KC's 5-3 record is its defense and running game, not the QB, that
and their schedule.

I also disagree that Denver was a loser in the trade. "Wink" Martindale's emphatic
exclamation as to how he missed Ayers in the lineup in his presser yesterday
indicates to me the success of Ayers' selection with the pick they received. And, as
it turns out, Denver was not a loser in Alphonso Smith's selection, either - where
they lost there was in, rather than working and having patience with him,
unloading him to Detroit where he is now having a fine season.

They are having "some" success with Orton, he says. Really. I would suppose
so, seeing as how Denver has had virtually no running game and has been
playing from behind much of the time - both leading to defenses playing the
pass almost exclusively - I guess one would consider a QB with Orton's kind of
production a success.

As good as KC has been with what they have, what would they be with Orton
behind center? I shudder to think.

As the Broncos and Chiefs go at it at Invesco this Sunday, I am glad the trade
turned out as it did, and that Denver has Orton and KC has Cassel . . .

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Ravage!!!
11-12-2010, 12:34 PM
Chiefs didn't have the #1 running game last year. They added players, and made the right decisions. Their QB isn't throwing INTs, and... is throwing as many TDs as we are in fewer attempts.

I'm not a big Cassel fan. I don't think he's special....but.... neither is Orton.

topscribe
11-12-2010, 12:44 PM
Chiefs didn't have the #1 running game last year. They added players, and made the right decisions. Their QB isn't throwing INTs, and... is throwing as many TDs as we are in fewer attempts.

I'm not a big Cassel fan. I don't think he's special....but.... neither is Orton.

At the moment, I can't think of anyone besides you who would like to get into a debate over Orton . . . :coffee:

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Traveler
11-12-2010, 12:48 PM
Gil Brandt is a former NFL personnel man who’s now an NFL.com analyst. He said that, after all the movement last year, the Broncos emerged as the loser. They traded the Bears’ 2010 first-round selection to Seattle so that they could move up in the 2009 draft to select Smith in the second round.

Smith didn’t start a game for Denver last year, and the Broncos traded him in September to Detroit for Dan Gronkowski, now the team’s second-string tight end. Denver gave up on Smith after one season. To make matters worse, Smith has five interceptions for the Lions, a signal that perhaps Denver dumped him too soon.

“They didn’t maximize those picks,” Brandt said.


Article is factually wrong!

Denver did not trade the Bears' 2010 choice for Alphonso Smith. We traded our own 2010 pick for the right to select Smith in the 2nd round of the 2009 draft.

Ravage!!!
11-12-2010, 01:21 PM
Article is factually wrong!

Denver did not trade the Bears' 2010 choice for Alphonso Smith. We traded our own 2010 pick for the right to select Smith in the 2nd round of the 2009 draft.

yeah... I saw that too. But :shrug: DIdn't change any meat of the article.

Ravage!!!
11-12-2010, 01:22 PM
At the moment, I can't think of anyone besides you who would like to get into a debate over Orton . . . :coffee:

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:coffee:

rcsodak
11-12-2010, 01:37 PM
Chiefs didn't have the #1 running game last year. They added players, and made the right decisions. Their QB isn't throwing INTs, and... is throwing as many TDs as we are in fewer attempts.

I'm not a big Cassel fan. I don't think he's special....but.... neither is Orton.
Then you're in the minority re Orton. Actual football people call him "knocking on the door of the top tier". Given the porous OL and lack of running game, I find it hard to argue that. Ok, I'll "shudder" along with Top.
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rcsodak
11-12-2010, 01:41 PM
Article is factually wrong!

Denver did not trade the Bears' 2010 choice for Alphonso Smith. We traded our own 2010 pick for the right to select Smith in the 2nd round of the 2009 draft.
But why parse facts when you can pile on the broncos?
It IS, afterall, from KC. :coffee:
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LRtagger
11-12-2010, 01:44 PM
I dont know. I would take Orton and Ayers over Cassel and Vrabel all day.

And then if you factor in that the 2010 pick that we used to get Thomas and Tebow was actually part of the trade, then I think we easily won out over KC.

I could see how you could say Chicago did well in that they got Cutler and Knox, but they did give up an aweful lot for those two guys.

But to say KC won because they got a mediocre QB that they had to severely overpay to keep on the roster along with an aged LB who maybe has a year or two left is a bit of a stretch IMO.

If anything NE won out on that. They got a nice safety and great special team player in exchange for a backup QB that was out of contract and LB they probably would have released anyways.

KCL
11-12-2010, 01:53 PM
But why parse facts when you can pile on the broncos?
It IS, afterall, from KC. :coffee:
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Sorry for posting..I thought it was an interesting article...:lol:
actually it's from an NFL analyst...:coffee:

topscribe
11-12-2010, 01:55 PM
Sorry for posting..I thought it was an interesting article...:lol:

It really was. It's interesting to find that the KC press has its Woody's and Kiszlas, too . . . :D

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KCL
11-12-2010, 01:59 PM
It really was. It's interesting to find that the KC press has its Woody's and Kiszlas, too . . . :D

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Don't shoot the messenger...they're quoting an NFL guy.

Traveler
11-12-2010, 02:08 PM
Don't shoot the messenger...they're quoting an NFL guy.

Can't believe Gil Brandt didn't have his facts in order. His words might prove to be true as far as the players we selected and the article isn't without merit.

rcsodak
11-12-2010, 02:29 PM
Sorry for posting..I thought it was an interesting article...:lol:
actually it's from an NFL analyst...:coffee:
no you're not. You enjoy pouring gas on the fire. But I was referring to the link being from kc.com.
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KCL
11-12-2010, 03:04 PM
no you're not. You enjoy pouring gas on the fire. But I was referring to the link being from kc.com.
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Afraid not rc...it IS YOU who enjoys the back and forth ..so run along and don't read my threads if they bother you...:coffee:

Like I said...don't get all testy with the messenger...Brandt doesn't write for
kc.com........:rolleyes:

rcsodak
11-12-2010, 03:40 PM
Afraid not rc...it IS YOU who enjoys the back and forth ..so run along and don't read my threads if they bother you...:coffee:

Like I said...don't get all testy with the messenger...Brandt doesn't write for
kc.com........:rolleyes:
dont try and justify it becaue you thought it to be 'interesting'. I know you better than that. You're a rival fan. The fanbase here is on fire. You wanted to add to it. Thats fine. I Didnt get pissy with you as you suggest. I said it came from "kc", as in KANSASS CITY. The link says kansascity.com. They werent entirely factual! And I know who the hell gil brandt is.
UGH! DAMN PYRO!

lol
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KCL
11-12-2010, 03:43 PM
dont try and justify it becaue you thought it to be 'interesting'. I know you better than that. You're a rival fan. The fanbase here is on fire. You wanted to add to it. Thats fine. I Didnt get pissy with you as you suggest. I said it came from "kc", as in KANSASS CITY. The link says kansascity.com. They werent entirely factual! And I know who the hell gil brandt is.
UGH! DAMN PYRO!

lol
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Get a grip...like I said...if my threads bother you...don't read them...you seem to be the only one having an issue with them..:coffee:
Not factual...take it up with Brandt...he is an NFL analyst.

Cugel
11-13-2010, 01:41 PM
Article is factually wrong!

Denver did not trade the Bears' 2010 choice for Alphonso Smith. We traded our own 2010 pick for the right to select Smith in the 2nd round of the 2009 draft.

Which makes it WORSE, not BETTER! Trading a 1st for a 2nd is almost never done and the Smith situation is just proof WHY!

Smith was a player who never even had a chance! It's virtually incomprehensible how McDaniels gave up so much to get him -- and then miserably failed to get any use out of him, benched him and then shipped him out of town -- only to watch him blossom in DETROIT of all places!

Detroit is usually the place careers go to die.

That just proves that either:

1. Smith is a one-year-wonder and will flame out in Detroit (in which case the critics were right and McDaniels was an idiot for drafting him in the first place), OR

2. Smith goes on to a successful career in Detroit (in which case McDaniels is an idiot for not successfully coaching him to be useful and then getting rid of him for a pack of used chewing gum).

Either way the conclusion is inescapable: McDaniels is a MORON!

spikerman
11-13-2010, 01:59 PM
To see who the winner of the trade is so far, let's take a look at the ol' football standings. KC is in 1st place and considered a team on the rise, Denver is in last place and doesn't appear to have a bright immediate future. I'm going to go out on a limb and say KC easily wins. Not because of what they gave up or got in return in that particular deal, but because they have personnel people who know what the hell they're doing and make good choices.

Lancane
11-14-2010, 02:26 AM
Then you're in the minority re Orton. Actual football people call him "knocking on the door of the top tier". Given the porous OL and lack of running game, I find it hard to argue that. Ok, I'll "shudder" along with Top.
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What actual football people? Because there have been several articles and tidbits that I've read and all written by analysts who've at one time played in or have been around the sport for many years who say otherwise. Not one person beyond a couple local writers have even mentioned him as getting close to the top echelon tier at his respective position. Elway and Dawson praised him...woo-woo, he also praised Griese, Plummer, Cutler, Brister and several others who had been drafted at the position. Dawson bares more weight because he is not particular to Denver, but Dawson is particular to Purdue football because it's his alma mater, I'm the same way with Michigan State.


Hall of Fame quarterback Len Dawson calls Kyle Orton "my guy," since both attended Purdue and both were the Boilermakers' starting quarterback in their collegiate careers.

It should also be noted that Orton unlike Dawson played in Joe Tiller's offense at Purdue, a variant of the Pro Spread Offense that McDaniels has come to use. His numbers in the West Coast offensive that the Chicago Bears ran during his time there was alien to him and he did not grasp the system well, his numbers were truly dismal...now he is again in a system that fits him and therein is by all standards a system quarterback. It's also the reason why every eight out of ten spread offensive quarterbacks are failures at the pro level, they're usually drafted into systems that are too complex or they don't fit in because they can not grasp it.

Again, I'm not anti-Orton, actually I give him a lot of credit at this time for being who and what he is...but don't make him out to be something he is not, because then you take away from him, even if it's something as positive as being an All-Pro or upper echelon athlete. When and if he get's to that point, I'll be the first to credit his accomplishment, but as of right now he is and remains nothing more then a system quarterback in the right system! Before someone starts bickering, I use to think much the same of Tom Brady, he was in a quarterback friendly system, which does pad stats...but where he changed my mind was at the Pro Bowl when they ran a stint in the base West Coast offense and he ran it almost flawlessly.

On a side note, Orton isn't the strongest quarterback, but he has plenty of zip and throws a tight spiral between the 20's, his long ball is where his control is better but throws are weaker...the one thing I think that could really help Orton get much better is if one of the stupid ass coaches we have took the time to show him how to pump fake, it would do a world of wonder for him...just my opinion though.