Will Health, Youth Fix What Ails O-Line?

[Denver Native (Carol)]

http://maxdenver.com/blog1/2010/11/11/will-health-youth-fix-what-ails-o-line/#more-1697

DENVER – If Josh McDaniels gets his wish, his starting offensive-line quintet for Sunday’s game with the Chiefs will stick for the rest of the season.

That would be a pleasant change for the Broncos, who have started 10 different offensive-line combinations the last two seasons. That will become 11 on Sunday afternoon, when Ryan Harris returns to right tackle after being benched the past three weeks, while Zane Beadles shifts from right tackle to left guard, the position he played during training camp and the first half of the preseason.

“Hopefully that will be more permanent for us this week and going forward,” Broncos coach Josh McDaniels said.

It would seem that the Broncos are once again starting from zero as they attempt to build continuity up front, but this group — which includes J.D. Walton at center, Ryan Clady at left tackle and Chris Kuper at right guard — is the one that many expected to see based on the Broncos’ alignments in training camp.

That could mean that the period of adjustment for this quintet should be less than it was for the previous groups.

“There shouldn’t be (a period of adjustment),” said Walton, who is joined by Clady as the only Denver offensive linemen to start every game this season. “(Beadles) is going back to his position and the rest of the group stays the same. We should be all right.”

The group will be young — its average experience is 2.8 years. Their combined experience of 14 seasons is one fewer than Kansas City’s starting center, ex-Bronco Casey Wiegmann, has on his own. Chris Kuper, in his fifth season, is the most experienced member of the group.

That isn’t necessarily a bad thing — in fact, it could be of vast benefit for the Broncos’ short- and long-term future if this group can gel together in the next eight weeks.

The line will also be healthier than it has been all year, since most of the group has struggled with injuries at some point this season. Clady didn’t take part in training camp because of a torn patella tendon; Kuper missed Week 2 with knee and ankle problems; Harris missed three games because of an ankle sprain he suffered in the preseason finale.

Harris’s first return to the lineup only lasted two games after he struggled against the Titans and Ravens, leading McDaniels to insert Beadles at right tackle and Russ Hochstein at left guard.

“No one plays completely healthy. I am healthier than when I was then,” Harris said. “I knew I was able to perform. It was different. I’d never had an injury like that. Playing with it was different. Things happened the way they did.”

With and without Harris, the line struggled to create holes for its running game. The team averaged just 1.76 yards per rush in the two games Harris played, and 3.16 yards per carry in the other six games, hardly numbers that can sustain a balanced offense. For the season, the line is on pace to allow 42 sacks, which would be the most since the Broncos conceded 46 sacks in 2002 with Brian Griese and Steve Beuerlein splitting the repetitions at quarterback.

Harris thinks all of those numbers will change in the next eight games.

“We’re in a unique position as a team and as an O-line. It’s just a time to let loose and that’s something that Coach has talked about: we know the techniques and we know what we’re supposed to do and it’s time to execute them,” Harris said. “And I think this O-line as a group, not only the starters, but our group, our room, has great chemistry. And even during the bye week, we got together to have some of that. I think it will produce some results.”

Talking about those results is one thing. Delivering on Sunday will define this group and determine whether this young quintet might stay together for a while — or be shuffled yet again.

“We’re practicing the right techniques. We also know that nothing we say is going to get it done. The proof is going to be in what we do on Sundays and this Sunday is another opportunity,” Harris said.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

The following is part of a comment on maxdenver's site, in regards to this article:

"I’m not sure that Denver will break out this year. They had 32 players from Shanahan’s last team who left football, usually for lack of job offers. If you add to that the injury turnover and the acquisitions that just didn’t pan out, and you’re replacing 40-50 players. Mathematically, that doesn’t happen quickly. Walton and Beadles need time to develop, and if Denver gets a stable OL, that’s a lot easier to accomplish."

[Cugel]

The following is part of a comment on maxdenver's site, in regards to this article:

"I’m not sure that Denver will break out this year. They had 32 players from Shanahan’s last team who left football, usually for lack of job offers. If you add to that the injury turnover and the acquisitions that just didn’t pan out, and you’re replacing 40-50 players. Mathematically, that doesn’t happen quickly. Walton and Beadles need time to develop, and if Denver gets a stable OL, that’s a lot easier to accomplish."

It would have been a LOT easier if that imbecile McDaniels hadn't scrapped the ZBS which was working just fine and didn't need changing! :coffee:

Mike Shanahan was able to get quality OL in the late rounds because not many teams used the ZBS, or wanted the smaller more athletic and quicker OL that are productive in it. (Chris Kuper for instance was a typical example -- he probably wouldn't have been drafted if not for the Broncos).

It worked great. In 2008 Cutler was only sacked 6 times and Denver's young athletic line, anchored by the two Ryans with all-pro Casey Weigmann having a resurgent season were considered one of the up and coming young OLs in the NFL. It's all a pile of ashes now.

But with McDaniels going to a power blocking scheme he's essentially competing against the entire rest of the league for the same type of OL (bigger, beefier, stronger, but not quicker). There's a reason why teams have to draft their OL in the top rounds -- because of Bill Parcells' Big Planet Theory -- that there are only so many big men who are athletic enough to be NFL linemen and you have to prioritize drafting them when you can.

If you want a guy who's 300lbs and quick and agile there are a LOT of those kind of guys -- you can easily draft one in round 6 or 7. But, if you need a guy with skill and toughness and athletic agility -- whose also 6'5" and weighs 330 or 340 lbs. there just aren't that many of those kind of men around!

Denver's OL simply has been caught in the transition -- with a bunch of players like Casey Weigmann who excelled in the old system, but were out of place in the new. Ryan Clady and Harris was great in 2008 -- but have looked lost at times in the new system. Simply put -- Denver has the wrong pieces to fit McDaniels "system."

He dismantled everything and has been trying to rebuild everything from the ground up, instead of keeping what worked and concentrating exclusively on getting rid of what didn't (the defense).

That's what I will NEVER forgive McDaniels for! He could have just kept the offense the way it was (2nd in the NFL). With a healthy Ryan Torain and Peyton Hillis he could have used the draft pick he wasted on Moreno to get some more help on defense.

The defense could be better, the offense wouldn't be much worse if at all. Together, that would probably mean an 8-8 team at worst, and possibly a playoff contender.

But, no! The asshat had to tear everything apart and now it's all a pile of smoldering ruins!

It will be no consolation that he doomed himself by screwing up in this fashion when he destroyed the team in the process!

[I Eat Staples]

It would have been a LOT easier if that imbecile McDaniels hadn't scrapped the ZBS which was working just fine and didn't need changing! :coffee:

Mike Shanahan was able to get quality OL in the late rounds because not many teams used the ZBS, or wanted the smaller more athletic and quicker OL that are productive in it. (Chris Kuper for instance was a typical example -- he probably wouldn't have been drafted if not for the Broncos).

It worked great. In 2008 Cutler was only sacked 6 times and Denver's young athletic line, anchored by the two Ryans with all-pro Casey Weigmann having a resurgent season were considered one of the up and coming young OLs in the NFL. It's all a pile of ashes now.

But with McDaniels going to a power blocking scheme he's essentially competing against the entire rest of the league for the same type of OL (bigger, beefier, stronger, but not quicker). There's a reason why teams have to draft their OL in the top rounds -- because of Bill Parcells' Big Planet Theory -- that there are only so many big men who are athletic enough to be NFL linemen and you have to prioritize drafting them when you can.

If you want a guy who's 300lbs and quick and agile there are a LOT of those kind of guys -- you can easily draft one in round 6 or 7. But, if you need a guy with skill and toughness and athletic agility -- whose also 6'5" and weighs 330 or 340 lbs. there just aren't that many of those kind of men around!

Denver's OL simply has been caught in the transition -- with a bunch of players like Casey Weigmann who excelled in the old system, but were out of place in the new. Ryan Clady and Harris was great in 2008 -- but have looked lost at times in the new system. Simply put -- Denver has the wrong pieces to fit McDaniels "system."

He dismantled everything and has been trying to rebuild everything from the ground up, instead of keeping what worked and concentrating exclusively on getting rid of what didn't (the defense).

That's what I will NEVER forgive McDaniels for! He could have just kept the offense the way it was (2nd in the NFL). With a healthy Ryan Torain and Peyton Hillis he could have used the draft pick he wasted on Moreno to get some more help on defense.

The defense could be better, the offense wouldn't be much worse if at all. Together, that would probably mean an 8-8 team at worst, and possibly a playoff contender.

But, no! The asshat had to tear everything apart and now it's all a pile of smoldering ruins!

It will be no consolation that he doomed himself by screwing up in this fashion when he destroyed the team in the process!

Good post, I completely agree.

[PAINTERDAVE]

Hard to argue against any of that..

good post.

[rcsodak]

It would have been a LOT easier if that imbecile McDaniels hadn't scrapped the ZBS which was working just fine and didn't need changing! :coffee:

Mike Shanahan was able to get quality OL in the late rounds because not many teams used the ZBS, or wanted the smaller more athletic and quicker OL that are productive in it. (Chris Kuper for instance was a typical example -- he probably wouldn't have been drafted if not for the Broncos).


In case you forgot the past few years, that heralded ZBS couldn't run block in short yardage or goalline for shit.

Not to mention, even MORE teams are going ZBS, so it's no longer as tough to defend as it was back when Denver/shanny ran it.

And it's not like McD doesn't ever run it. I believe he's used it exclusively a couple games this year....and with the same results. Regardless of the scheme, without a cohesive/healthy Oline, the run game is going to suffer.

I sure wouldn't mind seeing McD bring in a different Oline coach if they don't start improving, shortly, though.

[broncobryce]

He should have cut his air just like shanahan too, then get plastic surgery on his face to look just like him.

[Lancane]

It takes more then just thinking you have the right guys to create a good offensive line. It's much more then simply ability, talent, strength, heart, character, toughness or even coaching. The best lines in history were tight-knit units that had their own way...it takes a sense of unity, gelling to really become a good line.

Our line woes will not be fixed by simply putting the better athletes at a position of need, our lineman have been shifted to and fro in McDaniels' search of fixing the offensive line...they need consistency at their positions, repetition, an understanding of their roles as well of that of those next to them and a sense of comradery in general. And until they find that, then they will not improve to the point they need to.

[jhildebrand]

I think the O line needs time and Beadles needs a permanent home on the O line.

Next they need Orton to not hold onto the ball as long as he does at times.

Finally, they need the RB's to step up their game as well. The line doesn't look as bad as they do at times by their own accord. The RB's aren't helping matters more often than not.

This will be a very good O line.

[TimTebow15MVP]

this is the unit that will be d ominate the rest of the year and exspecially next year if they stay healthy

[Shazam!]

The OLine has rookies and riddled with injury.

You can blame the coaches, talent, players all you want. Rookies and injury will wreck an Oline.

Im not making excuses for McDaniels either, he messed up this year big time, but that's the truth.

[topscribe]

The following is part of a comment on maxdenver's site, in regards to this article:

"I’m not sure that Denver will break out this year. They had 32 players from Shanahan’s last team who left football, usually for lack of job offers. If you add to that the injury turnover and the acquisitions that just didn’t pan out, and you’re replacing 40-50 players. Mathematically, that doesn’t happen quickly. Walton and Beadles need time to develop, and if Denver gets a stable OL, that’s a lot easier to accomplish."

Just one thing: Cowboy Larry there is not me. :D

-----

[Canmore]

It would have been a LOT easier if that imbecile McDaniels hadn't scrapped the ZBS which was working just fine and didn't need changing! :coffee:

Mike Shanahan was able to get quality OL in the late rounds because not many teams used the ZBS, or wanted the smaller more athletic and quicker OL that are productive in it. (Chris Kuper for instance was a typical example -- he probably wouldn't have been drafted if not for the Broncos).

It worked great. In 2008 Cutler was only sacked 6 times and Denver's young athletic line, anchored by the two Ryans with all-pro Casey Weigmann having a resurgent season were considered one of the up and coming young OLs in the NFL. It's all a pile of ashes now.

But with McDaniels going to a power blocking scheme he's essentially competing against the entire rest of the league for the same type of OL (bigger, beefier, stronger, but not quicker). There's a reason why teams have to draft their OL in the top rounds -- because of Bill Parcells' Big Planet Theory -- that there are only so many big men who are athletic enough to be NFL linemen and you have to prioritize drafting them when you can.

If you want a guy who's 300lbs and quick and agile there are a LOT of those kind of guys -- you can easily draft one in round 6 or 7. But, if you need a guy with skill and toughness and athletic agility -- whose also 6'5" and weighs 330 or 340 lbs. there just aren't that many of those kind of men around!

Denver's OL simply has been caught in the transition -- with a bunch of players like Casey Weigmann who excelled in the old system, but were out of place in the new. Ryan Clady and Harris was great in 2008 -- but have looked lost at times in the new system. Simply put -- Denver has the wrong pieces to fit McDaniels "system."

He dismantled everything and has been trying to rebuild everything from the ground up, instead of keeping what worked and concentrating exclusively on getting rid of what didn't (the defense).

That's what I will NEVER forgive McDaniels for! He could have just kept the offense the way it was (2nd in the NFL). With a healthy Ryan Torain and Peyton Hillis he could have used the draft pick he wasted on Moreno to get some more help on defense.

The defense could be better, the offense wouldn't be much worse if at all. Together, that would probably mean an 8-8 team at worst, and possibly a playoff contender.

But, no! The asshat had to tear everything apart and now it's all a pile of smoldering ruins!

It will be no consolation that he doomed himself by screwing up in this fashion when he destroyed the team in the process!

I agree with everything except Cutler was sacked 11 times, still a very impresive number for an offensive line. I couldn't find where that ranked us, but it must be in the top 5. Besides that, we are a pile of smoldering ruins.

[Bosco]

Hard to argue against any of that..
Watch me. :D


It would have been a LOT easier if that imbecile McDaniels hadn't scrapped the ZBS which was working just fine and didn't need changing! :coffee: Define "working fine"? You mean between the 20's where we generally ran the ball with ease? Ok, I'll give you that. What about down around the goal line where the ZBS is ineffectual for the lack of space and the smaller linemen are getting beaten by physically superior? No true ZBS scheme, much less our own, has produced a legitimately imposing goal line offense for quite some time. You got to go back to the Alex Gibbs era to find where we were actually good there.


Mike Shanahan was able to get quality OL in the late rounds because not many teams used the ZBS, or wanted the smaller more athletic and quicker OL that are productive in it. (Chris Kuper for instance was a typical example -- he probably wouldn't have been drafted if not for the Broncos). What great linemen? Nalen was here before Shanahan, Dan Neil, Ryan Clady, Ryan Harris, Lennie Friedman and George Foster were all first day picks. The only late round or UDFA guys who were anything above average were Lepsis, Hamilton, Kuper and Chris Myers for a year.

Four hits in his tenure isn't exactly spectacular.


It worked great. In 2008 Cutler was only sacked 6 times and Denver's young athletic line, anchored by the two Ryans with all-pro Casey Weigmann having a resurgent season were considered one of the up and coming young OLs in the NFL. It's all a pile of ashes now. It's really hard to take you seriously when you use the proficiency of our pass blocking to defend a run blocking scheme.

And how is that McDaniels fault that it's a "pile of ashes" now? Wiegmann and Hamilton have both clearly fallen off and were horrible in 2009. The other three have all been injured this season.


But with McDaniels going to a power blocking scheme he's essentially competing against the entire rest of the league for the same type of OL (bigger, beefier, stronger, but not quicker). There's a reason why teams have to draft their OL in the top rounds -- because of Bill Parcells' Big Planet Theory -- that there are only so many big men who are athletic enough to be NFL linemen and you have to prioritize drafting them when you can. So you mean we're going to have to make a sizable investment in the unit that opens up holes for our running backs and protects the quarterback?

Welcome to the NFL.

And just FYI, the investment isn't that big of a deal. The New England Patriots have a very good offensive line and they consist of Matt Light (2nd round) Logan Mankins (1st round) Dan Koppen (5th rounder) Stephen Neal (UDFA) and Nick Kaczur (3rd rounder). Their offensive line isn't that far off of the 2009 Jets who had 1st round picks at 4 of the 5 OL positions.


If you want a guy who's 300lbs and quick and agile there are a LOT of those kind of guys -- you can easily draft one in round 6 or 7. But, if you need a guy with skill and toughness and athletic agility -- whose also 6'5" and weighs 330 or 340 lbs. there just aren't that many of those kind of men around! How many of those people do we have on our roster? Right now the only guys over 310lbs are Clady (Shanny pick) Stanley Daniels (UDFA) and Chris Clark, who hasn't even been active this season to my knowledge.


Denver's OL simply has been caught in the transition -- with a bunch of players like Casey Weigmann who excelled in the old system, but were out of place in the new. Ryan Clady and Harris was great in 2008 -- but have looked lost at times in the new system. Simply put -- Denver has the wrong pieces to fit McDaniels "system." And here is where your argument really starts to fall apart.

Casey Wiegmann (yes, you spelled it wrong) played in power blocking schemes in Chicago and during his first stint with Kansas City. That never stopped him from being a solid player before. Clady was a mother****ing All-Pro and Pro Bowler last year and Harris was looking just as good as he did in 2008 until he dislocated that toe.


He dismantled everything and has been trying to rebuild everything from the ground up, instead of keeping what worked and concentrating exclusively on getting rid of what didn't (the defense).

That's what I will NEVER forgive McDaniels for! He could have just kept the offense the way it was (2nd in the NFL). With a healthy Ryan Torain and Peyton Hillis he could have used the draft pick he wasted on Moreno to get some more help on defense.

The defense could be better, the offense wouldn't be much worse if at all. Together, that would probably mean an 8-8 team at worst, and possibly a playoff contender. So your biggest gripe is that a new coach scrapped a run blocking scheme that wasn't nearly as effective as you think it was in favor of the scheme he used as an offensive coordinator (what a *******!) because you feel that attention could have been better spent on the defense which went through an even greater scheme and personnel change?

Yep, no logical fallacies there.

Oh, and that same Ryan Torain you're pining for couldn't even pass a physical last year and spent all of 2009 out of football. Unless you're suggesting that McDaniels establish some kind of injury halfway house for every running back prospect you like, it's kinda pointless to piss and moan about not having Torain.


But, no! The asshat had to tear everything apart and now it's all a pile of smoldering ruins! That's what new coaches do. They throw out the old stuff and implement the systems they like. Shanahan did it when he tossed out our old man blocking scheme for the ZBS, and now Josh McDaniels has thrown that out to bring the man blocking scheme back. It's the natural ebb and flow of the NFL and you might as well accept it.