Who should be held accountable for the current state of the team?

[broncofaninfla]

Who should be held accountable for the current state of the team?

[Nomad]

All the above and you forgot to add Bowlen!! It's a lame excuse to say he lets his management handle everything while he sits back and watches his franchise crumble, if that's the case he is a piss poor owner!!!

[TXBRONC]

I don't think you can lay it all off on just one person. In fact you could have added Bowlen to list as well imo.

[rcsodak]

year 2.
:coffee:
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[broncofaninfla]

year 2.
:coffee:
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Correct, year two and the team is regressing instead of progressing.

[broncofaninfla]

I agree, I should have included Bowlen. I'd include him in "all the above".

[MasterShake]

I blame the refs. Take away the PI in the Jets game and the "illegal block" on the flea flicker in the SF game and we would be 4-4! :lol:

I don't think you can point to any one thing, this has been going on since at least 2007. The only difference is we can't hide behind a weak division anymore. Players, coaches, and management will have to step up until our young players can form a new nucleus. We are a patchwork team now, like it or not.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

It's all of the above, but McDaniels must take the most responsibility. The player/coaching decisions were his and yes, as it has been discussed at length that he has to get final approval through Bowlen (spoken: Ellis) for personnel decisions, but nobody is going to convince me that Xanders and Ellis are exactly renown for their football intellect and scouting skills.

Ellis is a business man, like Bowlen, and his motivations are based solely on the almighty $. Even more so than Bowlen, he wants the franchise to be successful because of the revenue in brings in, not because he really cares one way or another if the Broncos actually win another Championship. He will take McDaniels' advice more often than not because McDaniels is supposed to be the "football expert" and will approve the things that Josh wants because he believes in him (of course he does, he hired him and a loss of confidence in McDaniels constitutes a failure on his part - something nobody wants to admit). So, while Ellis has some responsibility for the current state of affairs I believe that, other than hiring McDaniels in the first place, he's had little to do with the day-to-day football operations as it pertains to play on the field.

Xanders appears to be what the majority of us think he is... another Ted Sundquist. Another yes-man GM who's really just a number cruncher and salary manager. His decisions on personnel are also based on finances and not really based on football personnel management savvy.

McDaniels has pretty much been given the leeway to do almost whatever he sees fit with this team and we're seeing the current results. Some here are content and think we're somehow improving and are willing to give McDaniels one more year at least before making a final decision, but in my case I just don't see us going anywhere but backward. On paper, our team should be better than the one we fielded last year based on the improvements(?) we've made to the D-line and O-line along with the "one more year in the system" philosophy. The only area that we look worse than last year's team is at the TE position... on paper. The reality of it is, we're worse in EVERY area except arguably the play of Orton. That falls squarely on McDaniels' shoulders.

[Lancane]

http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l391/mass300/nfl_a_mcdaniels_600.jpg


This picture tells it all...

http://i283.photobucket.com/albums/kk297/paulthedcboi/MCDSUKS.jpg

[Slick]

Are we going to march on Dove Valley with torches and pitchforks once the results are in?

[Dreadnought]

Are we going to march on Dove Valley with torches and pitchforks once the results are in?

I'd be totally up for that, but I live too far away and I'm too broke for plane fare

[Broncolingus]

I think they all have some 'blame...'

...of course, I think the players do too also.

JMO...

[Thnikkaman]

I blame the fans.

We didn't bring up enough petty arguments on internet message boards.

SHAME ON ALL OF US!!!!

[slim]

I blame the fans.

We didn't bring up enough petty arguments on internet message boards.

SHAME ON ALL OF US!!!!

You mean we haven't covered all of the petty arguments yet?

Jeebus...let me know once we have, so I can start posting again.

[Thnikkaman]

You mean we haven't covered all of the petty arguments yet?

Jeebus...let me know once we have, so I can start posting again.

We still need to agrue about the Water boy using the correct fabric softener in the towels, another 3 or 4 arguments about the trainers, nobody has blamed McDaniels haircut, and we need to ultimately conclude that the fault all lies with the guys that shot D. Will.

[SOCALORADO.]

http://www.joshmcdanielssucks.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/Drew-Litton_2.gif

[TXBRONC]

Are we going to march on Dove Valley with torches and pitchforks once the results are in?

I wasn't planning on it. However, I'm very disappointed how badly this team has regressed and I don't think it's unfair to be critical of the coach or the front office for the state of team att.

If it's fair to praise them when things are good then it's fair to question what's going on when things are going bad.
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[broncobryce]

Coaches, players, some bad luck and injuries
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[Lonestar]

I blame the refs. Take away the PI in the Jets game and the "illegal block" on the flea flicker in the SF game and we would be 4-4! :lol:

I don't think you can point to any one thing, this has been going on since at least 2007. The only difference is we can't hide behind a weak division anymore. Players, coaches, and management will have to step up until our young players can form a new nucleus. We are a patchwork team now, like it or not.

Outstanding post. With upwards of 30 kids with less than 4 years(20 less than 3) in the NFL. And 7 IIRC with 10 years or more and another 5 at 9 years means there is about 10 players past their rookie contracts.

With youth comes in consistency.

Add to that all of the injuries and games missed by starters.

If the OP would have added bad karma/bounces that would have been my vote but since he did not I abstain. .
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[Broncolingus]

You mean we haven't covered all of the petty arguments yet?

Jeebus...let me know once we have, so I can start posting again.

I'll help...

...tonight, I'll start a thread about what a mistake it was to let Hillis go.

:salute:

[Ravage!!!]

yeah.. our division is considered the weakest in the NFL, and we just can't hide behind those great teams anymore. :coffee:

Lets realize that EVERY team in the NFL recognizes that the coach is responsible for the state of the team... ESPECIALLY a coach that has tried to do WAyyyy too much and just traded away pro-bowlers and GOOD players, with NO accountability. Can't happen. If you are going to make THOSE kinds of moves, you can't continue to show the team making its way to the bottom of the NFL. 4-14, 2-6, is LOSING football.

The coach is responsible for his own mess. He's the one that has created it.

[JaxBroncoGirl]

What I do not want to see is what has happened in Jacksonville. Weaver has kept Del Rio way to long, kept a QB that was not a leader for to long and they have been rebuilding for what (8 years). Does anyone here think McD has too big of an ego? That is a problem if that is the case. Jaguars see it every day. Some coaching egos can get in the way of retaining good players and if the owner will not step up to the plate and allow money for good players is also a team killer.

[Lonestar]

We still need to agrue about the Water boy using the correct fabric softener in the towels, another 3 or 4 arguments about the trainers, nobody has blamed McDaniels haircut, and we need to ultimately conclude that the fault all lies with the guys that shot D. Will.

You may be closer to the Dwill comment than anyone cares to admit. Without his death BM is not hating DEN and its memories of his part in his friends deaths.
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[Ravage!!!]

*puts on some taller boots*.... wow

[T.K.O.]

i blame the refs !...........

R......E......F........S

refs,refs,refs:elefant:

[Dzone]

1.Mcdaniels
2. Whoever hired him
3. Whoever is not firing him

[dogfish]

Are we going to march on Dove Valley with torches and pitchforks once the results are in?

no. . .





we use guns nowadays, big guy. . .

[Dzone]

Seriously, I dont care for mcdaniels, but his system may be the most suitable to Tebow. Mcdaniels was sold on Tebow when he found Tebow fluent in Mcdaniels offensive terminology. If Mcd is fired and replaced by a coach who doesnt like Tebow, well that would suck. Im eager for the Tebow era to begin and who knows, maybe Mcd gives him the best chance at success...if thats the case, then I will suffer thru these crappy times with Mcd

[SOCALORADO.]

Seriously, I dont care for mcdaniels, but his system may be the most suitable to Tebow. Mcdaniels was sold on Tebow when he found Tebow fluent in Mcdaniels offensive terminology. If Mcd is fired and replaced by a coach who doesnt like Tebow, well that would suck. Im eager for the Tebow era to begin and who knows, maybe Mcd gives him the best chance at success...if thats the case, then I will suffer thru these crappy times with Mcd

Heres Tebows best chance at success.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kM_q2Z7Zg1U



http://www.tampabay.com/multimedia/archive/00110/C4S_Tebwojump030510_110858c.jpg

[dogfish]

concrete cyanide, baby!

[Northman]

McDaniels is clearly the puppet master here.

[Dzone]

Heres Tebows best chance at success.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kM_q2Z7Zg1U



http://www.tampabay.com/multimedia/archive/00110/C4S_Tebwojump030510_110858c.jpg
No doubt. We need Gruden. Hopefully Dallas doesnt snatch him up before we get a shot at hiring him...Something tells me that Mcd is going to linger around just like Dan Hawkins lingered at CU...

[Jake Klug]

See this is the problem. Its far and away Joe Ellis but McDaniels easily gets the most votes because he's the most visible. This allows someone like Ellis to lurk in the shadows.

The problems with the Broncos are more deeply rooted than McDaniels. Joe Ellis is a cancer in the front office and its very possibly Bowlen is now under his influence. If so, count on even darker days ahead. That guy will be acting out of self interest trying to save face and push his own agendas.

But one things for sure, whenever Joe Ellis gets involved, the Broncos fans lose, whether its the stadium or whatever.

[T.K.O.]

gruden might be a good choice.....i really preffered the way we played the raiders when we had a coach with an axe to grind against ol' al davis:laugh:

[broncofaninfla]

The way I look at it is if the fire Mcd then they need to fire Xanders and Ellis as well. All three have stunk it up to date......

[Ravage!!!]

gruden might be a good choice.....i really preffered the way we played the raiders when we had a coach with an axe to grind against ol' al davis:laugh:

Great point! :beer:

[Lonestar]

bitter, bitterer, bitterest.


I sure hope y'all feel better now, How about a group hug?

and I mean that sincerely hope this all lets you get the healing started. :salute:

[Cugel]

Seriously, I dont care for mcdaniels, but his system may be the most suitable to Tebow. Mcdaniels was sold on Tebow when he found Tebow fluent in Mcdaniels offensive terminology. If Mcd is fired and replaced by a coach who doesnt like Tebow, well that would suck. Im eager for the Tebow era to begin and who knows, maybe Mcd gives him the best chance at success...if thats the case, then I will suffer thru these crappy times with Mcd

Sorry to say this, but the NEW COACH next season will probably trade Tebow for an empty M & Ms wrapper. :coffee:

Nobody in the NFL outside of McDaniels thinks that Tebow is ever going to be a great starting QB and he's being paid way to much for what he's really worth. The next coach is going to simply clean house -- just like McDaniels did and that means Tebow will probably hit the bricks just like Cutler did when McDaniels came to town.

New Coach = New QB. That's just the way it is in the NFL. Every new coach wants "his guy" at QB and wants to get rid of whoever the previous regime brought in.

Sadly, that probably means that Orton will be gone too and he doesn't deserve it.

Then they'll have to fire all the assistant coaches, and start all over again getting rid of the useless chodes McDenial has brought in during his short stint as the NFL's equivalent to "Heckuva-Job-Brownie".

Perhaps Bowlen will give him a Freedom Medal to get out of town with. :coffee:

[Cugel]

The way I look at it is if the fire Mcd then they need to fire Xanders and Ellis as well. All three have stunk it up to date......

Bowlen is close to Ellis, so he might keep him. He's really in charge of business, and has nothing to do with player personnel decisions. That one's on Xanders and McDaniels.

They're the ones who will get fired at the end of the season.

You can put it on your calender right now. :coffee:

[dogfish]

bitter, bitterer, bitterest.


I sure hope y'all feel better now, How about a group hug?

and I mean that sincerely hope this all lets you get the healing started. :salute:

nobody feels any better, and no one is going to until we win some stinking football games. . .


come on, no one could understand this better than you. . . you're STILL unbelievably bitter towards shanahan, and that guy won two super bowls here before going in the tank. . . mcdaniels just came here and went in the tank immediately, with no grace period or glorious wins to soften the blow. . . so if ten years of bitching hasn't relieved or diminshed your bitterness towards mike, you may as well just get used to people pissing on mcD, because it's not stopping until one of two things happen-- either we stop being one of the worst teams in the league, or the coach who got us there hits the bricks. . . that's simple and inevitable math. . .

[Buff]

Sorry to say this, but the NEW COACH next season will probably trade Tebow for an empty M & Ms wrapper. :coffee:

Nobody in the NFL outside of McDaniels thinks that Tebow is ever going to be a great starting QB and he's being paid way to much for what he's really worth. The next coach is going to simply clean house -- just like McDaniels did and that means Tebow will probably hit the bricks just like Cutler did when McDaniels came to town.

New Coach = New QB. That's just the way it is in the NFL. Every new coach wants "his guy" at QB and wants to get rid of whoever the previous regime brought in.

Sadly, that probably means that Orton will be gone too and he doesn't deserve it.

Then they'll have to fire all the assistant coaches, and start all over again getting rid of the useless chodes McDenial has brought in during his short stint as the NFL's equivalent to "Heckuva-Job-Brownie".

Perhaps Bowlen will give him a Freedom Medal to get out of town with. :coffee:


Bowlen is close to Ellis, so he might keep him. He's really in charge of business, and has nothing to do with player personnel decisions. That one's on Xanders and McDaniels.

They're the ones who will get fired at the end of the season.

You can put it on your calender right now. :coffee:

You sound pretty confident that McD is on his way out. I say there is about a 5% chance he gets fired. If that.

You just don't fire a hall of fame coach, bring in a new guy with zero head coaching experience, sign him to a four year contract, and then fire him after two years. The only way you do that is if you've got absolutely zero faith in him. I think the 6-0 start alone was proof enough that McD has it in him to win some games in this league. He gets a third year barring a meltdown of epic proportions.

[I Eat Staples]

All of the above.

But mostly McDouche.

[MasterShake]

You sound pretty confident that McD is on his way out. I say there is about a 5% chance he gets fired. If that.

You just don't fire a hall of fame coach, bring in a new guy with zero head coaching experience, sign him to a four year contract, and then fire him after two years. The only way you do that is if you've got absolutely zero faith in him. I think the 6-0 start alone was proof enough that McD has it in him to win some games in this league. He gets a third year barring a meltdown of epic proportions.

Good points. I don't think anyone here wants McDaniels to fail at the expense of the Broncos, but as long as his first season and a half has seemed its just a blink of the eye in the grand scheme of things. After next year if there is no improvement, I say they make the move and get rid of him.

As far as this season goes, we still have a huge game against KC this weekend. A win would put us a mere 2 games out of 1st with seven to go. I would LOVE to see a meaningful Monday Night game against the Chargers. As far as I'm concerned McD and the Broncos have eight more chances to win me over again. Though I am a slut for the Broncos, so its not too hard.

:woot:

[frauschieze]

nobody feels any better, and no one is going to until we win some stinking football games. . .


come on, no one could understand this better than you. . . you're STILL unbelievably bitter towards shanahan, and that guy won two super bowls here before going in the tank. . . mcdaniels just came here and went in the tank immediately, with no grace period or glorious wins to soften the blow. . . so if ten years of bitching hasn't relieved or diminshed your bitterness towards mike, you may as well just get used to people pissing on mcD, because it's not stopping until one of two things happen-- either we stop being one of the worst teams in the league, or the coach who got us there hits the bricks. . . that's simple and inevitable math. . .

And it's even doubtful the bitching will stop if McD leaves simply because of the epic mess he's created. It's not going to get cleaned up in an offseason. So I maintain that the bitching will continue until we are winning consistently. Period. No matter who is at the helm.

[Jake Klug]

You sound pretty confident that McD is on his way out. I say there is about a 5% chance he gets fired. If that.

You just don't fire a hall of fame coach, bring in a new guy with zero head coaching experience, sign him to a four year contract, and then fire him after two years. The only way you do that is if you've got absolutely zero faith in him. I think the 6-0 start alone was proof enough that McD has it in him to win some games in this league. He gets a third year barring a meltdown of epic proportions.


OK, lets examine what might qualify as "meltdown of epic proportions".


Finished the season 2-8 after being spotted a 6-0 start

4-14 after 6-0 start

Demolished 59-14 in worst home defeat every


Do any of those qualify? If that doesnt qualify, I dont know what does.

[dogfish]

Sorry to say this, but the NEW COACH next season will probably trade Tebow for an empty M & Ms wrapper. :coffee:

Nobody in the NFL outside of McDaniels thinks that Tebow is ever going to be a great starting QB and he's being paid way to much for what he's really worth. The next coach is going to simply clean house -- just like McDaniels did and that means Tebow will probably hit the bricks just like Cutler did when McDaniels came to town.

New Coach = New QB. That's just the way it is in the NFL. Every new coach wants "his guy" at QB and wants to get rid of whoever the previous regime brought in.

Sadly, that probably means that Orton will be gone too and he doesn't deserve it.

Then they'll have to fire all the assistant coaches, and start all over again getting rid of the useless chodes McDenial has brought in during his short stint as the NFL's equivalent to "Heckuva-Job-Brownie".

Perhaps Bowlen will give him a Freedom Medal to get out of town with. :coffee:

i would typically agree with you, but you're wrong to suggest that no one in the NFL would want to work with tebow. . .

jon gruden freaking loves tim tebow (http://deadspin.com/5150666/examining-jon-grudens-unhealthy-obsession-with-tim-tebow)

"That's why Tim Tebow is so interesting to me. He's like Brandon Jacobs playing quarterback. He's 250 pounds. He's the strongest human being who's ever played the position. Ever. He will kick the living [expletive] out of a defensive lineman. He'll fight anybody. He is rare. Tebow is the kind of guy who could revolutionize the game. He's the 'wildcat' who can throw. Most of the teams that have the wildcat back there, it's Ronnie Brown, it's Jerious Norwood, it's whoever you want to say it is. This guy here is 250 pounds of concrete cyanide, man. And he can throw. He throws well enough at any level to play quarterback."

"This guy is totally different. He's got Rich Gannon, Drew Brees, that kind of makeup as a team guy. What he said after the Ole Miss game, I said, 'That's my favorite football player I've ever seen in my whole life.' I said, 'I want Florida to win every game that kid plays from now on.'"

i don't think we'd have any problem getting gruden to come here and coach tim. . . i really think gruden is the ideal choice if we decide to make a change-- the guy has never met a QB he didn't think he could coach up. . . remember the way he collected QBs in tampa? he always seemed genuinely happy to work with the likes of brian greise and chris simms, and he spoke glowingly of jake freakin' plummer. . .

that's what i like about gruden as a potential hire-- i think he'll be perfectly glad to work with all our quarterbacks. . . i find that particularly appealing because i don't think he'll come in and discard orton. . . i think JG is the guy who can come in and build on what little organizational momentum we have, which is basically our passing game right now. . . JG has never had a problem working with reclamation QBs-- look what the guy did with rich gannon, FFS! his past history suggests to me that he's THE ideal candidate to come in and make a dispassioned, intelligent analysis or our QB situation. . . i do think a lot of coaches would come in and decide to just discard all our guys and start over, which IMO is probably the worst way to go-- it's one of the main reasons JG is my preference. . .

[Buff]

OK, lets examine what might qualify as "meltdown of epic proportions".


Finished the season 2-8 after being spotted a 6-0 start

4-14 after 6-0 start

Demolished 59-14 in worst home defeat every


Do any of those qualify? If that doesnt qualify, I dont know what does.

People like to gloss over the 6-0 start and attribute it to a lack of film on Denver, Mike Nolan's defense, Marshall, etc. If you're going to bash him for the horrendous end to the season last year, you also have to give him credit for the 2nd best start in franchise history. So, after one season, we saw both extremes...

If we go 4-12 this season, I think Bowlen at least considers making a move, but then elects not to because two seasons doesn't provide a large enough sample size to evaluate a coach in the NFL. Switching from a 4-3 to a 3-4 scheme on defense and zone blocking to power blocking on offense takes a little time to bring in the right personnel. Give him a chance to bring in some more defensive playmakers, give him a chance to develop his 1st round QB, etc. I'm not happy with the results this season either, but I think we'd be worse off by getting rid of the coach in the middle of his rebuilding transition. Successful franchises don't make knee jerk decisions and it would be knee jerk to get rid of the guy after two seasons, only one of which where he posted a losing record (assuming we don't go 7-1 down the stretch).

[Jake Klug]

People like to gloss over the 6-0 start and attribute it to a lack of film on Denver, Mike Nolan's defense, Marshall, etc.

Its not that if gets glossed over. It gets referenced frequently. But here is where it doesnt stand up to scrutiny. The 4-14 consists of 18 games. The 6-0 consists of 6 games. 18> 6. 18 is a much larger sample size and its more recent. The 4-14 is more indicative of where the team is going. The 6-0 is a distant memory.



If you're going to bash him for the horrendous end to the season last year, you also have to give him credit for the 2nd best start in franchise history. So, after one season, we saw both extremes...

Actually, I dont. Im more focused on the 4-14. Again, thats more indicative of where the team is going. The 4-14, by being more recent and of a larger sample size makes the 6-0 flukish.


If we go 4-12 this season, I think Bowlen at least considers making a move, but then elects not to because two seasons doesn't provide a large enough sample size to evaluate a coach in the NFL. Switching from a 4-3 to a 3-4 scheme on defense and zone blocking to power blocking on offense takes a little time to bring in the right personnel.

When you look at the success at other teams who hired new coaches at the same time, this becomes laughable. The scheme change excuses just need to go away.


Give him a chance to bring in some more defensive playmakers, give him a chance to develop his 1st round QB, etc.

No way. Its bad enough this season has been a waste. He needs to be gone.


I'm not happy with the results this season either, but I think we'd be worse off by getting rid of the coach in the middle of his rebuilding transition.

This was no rebuild. Constant references to "rebuild" is excuse making. Its lowering the bar so to provide an excuse.


Successful franchises don't make knee jerk decisions and it would be knee jerk to get rid of the guy after two seasons,

Successful franchises replace bad coaches with good coaches. That isnt time sensitive either.


only one of which where he posted a losing record (assuming we don't go 7-1 down the stretch).

He's 4-14 since the 6-0 start spanning two seasons. He is the author of a 59-14 defeat. This regime now has the kind of stink in it that requires you to sell the car.

Besides, you said "meltdown of epic proportions" and I referenced 3 examples that qualify. But you gloss over that.

[Dzone]

since we change Defensive coordinators every year, how about bringing Wade back!!!...That would be awesome..Wade knows more about D than most DC in the league

[Jake Klug]

since we change Defensive coordinators every year, how about bringing Wade back!!!...That would be awesome..Wade knows more about D than most DC in the league

OK, but that doesnt solve the head coach proplem or the COO problem.

[Dzone]

i would typically agree with you, but you're wrong to suggest that no one in the nfl would want to work with tebow. .
That's what i like about gruden as a potential hire-- i think he'll be perfectly glad to work with all our quarterbacks. . . I find that particularly appealing because i don't think he'll come in and discard orton. . . I think jg is the guy who can come in and build on what little organizational momentum we have, which is basically our passing game right now. . . Jg has never had a problem working with reclamation qbs-- look what the guy did with rich gannon, ffs! His past history suggests to me that he's the ideal candidate to come in and make a dispassioned, intelligent analysis or our qb situation. . . I do think a lot of coaches would come in and decide to just discard all our guys and start over, which imo is probably the worst way to go-- it's one of the main reasons jg is my preference. . .
great post! Great reason to hire gruden! Gruden would jump at the chance to coach tebow!

[Dzone]

OK, but that doesnt solve the head coach proplem or the COO problem.

GRUDEN...Gruden will make Tebow a Star

[Jake Klug]

GRUDEN...Gruden will make Tebow a Star

Now, youre talking. What about the COO problem?

[Buff]

Its not that if gets glossed over. It gets referenced frequently. But here is where it doesnt stand up to scrutiny. The 4-14 consists of 18 games. The 6-0 consists of 6 games. 18> 6. 18 is a much larger sample size and its more recent. The 4-14 is more indicative of where the team is going. The 6-0 is a distant memory.




Actually, I dont. Im more focused on the 4-14. Again, thats more indicative of where the team is going. The 4-14, by being more recent and of a larger sample size makes the 6-0 flukish.



When you look at the success at other teams who hired new coaches at the same time, this becomes laughable. The scheme change excuses just need to go away.



No way. Its bad enough this season has been a waste. He needs to be gone.



This was no rebuild. Constant references to "rebuild" is excuse making. Its lowering the bar so to provide an excuse.



Successful franchises replace bad coaches with good coaches. That isnt time sensitive either.



He's 4-14 since the 6-0 start spanning two seasons. He is the author of a 59-14 defeat. This regime now has the kind of stink in it that requires you to sell the car.

There are no flukes in the NFL. 6-0 was legit at the time, just as the 4-14 is legitimate. That's why you need to look at more than 24 games to determine what kind of coach he is. Plus, you can't hold him accountable for losses and then dismiss his wins - that's shortsided.

You laugh off the scheme shift & rebuilding as excuses, but how is any team going to be successful immediately after purging 30+ guys who aren't even good enough to play in the NFL? Shanahan was fired because he was a piss poor GM, so it's not like McDaniels was met with a roster full of superstars.

I honestly think McDaniels is a good coach... But even if I'm wrong about that, he deserves a third year to prove it one way or another.

[Lancane]

Ellis, Xanders and McDaniels all feel the heat on their backsides. After all, they're the ones that are to blame for setting the franchise in the direction it's taking above and beyond Bowlen's hiring of them...especially if Bowlen is officially diagnosed with some sort of mental disorder. If it get's too bad, Ellis and company may not be fired by Pat, but by his little brother John and the Board of Directors, because no matter what power is given to Ellis, the Board of Directors can fire him and anyone else they see fit, especially if Pat Bowlen can no longer fulfill his duties.

And if Pat is alright, then he will eventually make a decision because, let's face it...winning is his top priority. And don't be surprised if he sells a dominant share of the team to either his brother or to John (Elway) in order for them to have more say so with the team.

[Buff]

I will throw in one caveat - I have such a mancrush on Gruden that he is the one guy I'd be in favor of replacing McDaniels with at the end of this season. I don't want to fire McD, but if it meant landing Gruden then I'd be on board.

[TXBRONC]

You sound pretty confident that McD is on his way out. I say there is about a 5% chance he gets fired. If that.

You just don't fire a hall of fame coach, bring in a new guy with zero head coaching experience, sign him to a four year contract, and then fire him after two years. The only way you do that is if you've got absolutely zero faith in him. I think the 6-0 start alone was proof enough that McD has it in him to win some games in this league. He gets a third year barring a meltdown of epic proportions.

We don't know if Bowlen has faith in McDaniels or not. He brought him in to win not to lose. If you're looking at the 6-0 start in vaccum then yes it looks like he knows how win. But what has he done since then? He's won a total of 4 games and he's had three 4 game losing streaks since that 6-0 start Buff.

[I Eat Staples]

I don't like Jon Gruden much at all. I'd take anyone over McDumbass but there's a lot of coaches I'd look at before Gruden.

No one's making Tebow a star in the NFL. Gruden's willingness to work with him is just another turn-off to me. I'd like to see Tebow traded and Orton as the long-term QB.

[I Eat Staples]

There are no flukes in the NFL.

How could you possibly say that? MUCH of what happens in the NFL are flukes. Most teams are not really as good or as bad as they seem at times.

[Lancane]

There are no flukes in the NFL. 6-0 was legit at the time, just as the 4-14 is legitimate. That's why you need to look at more than 24 games to determine what kind of coach he is. Plus, you can't hold him accountable for losses and then dismiss his wins - that's shortsided.

You laugh off the scheme shift & rebuilding as excuses, but how is any team going to be successful immediately after purging 30+ guys who aren't even good enough to play in the NFL? Shanahan was fired because he was a piss poor GM, so it's not like McDaniels was met with a roster full of superstars.

I honestly think McDaniels is a good coach... But even if I'm wrong about that, he deserves a third year to prove it one way or another.

Those who were considered superstars were purged with the rest of the trash, that sounds like pretty horrid management itself Buff. And how has our G.M. been any better? Shanahan usually drafted two capable starters per draft overall, not saying all his drafts were even that successful, but this organization was improving in that area. How has it improved? Have we drafted any real good football players that are in because of their talent compared to need? Buckhalter was still considered the starter over Moreno, now Moreno is the starter and can barely do a damn thing, the offensive line was a no-brainer in the fact we had to start our rookies and it's far worse, Ayers is the only true starter of acceptable talent that earned a spot to start, the plethora of defensive backs we've drafted can not even surpass the aged defensive backs we have starting, linebacker corps. is depleted, but not improved and defensive line is a joke.

Does a coach deserve a third year if the majority of the fanbase is against him, is causing issues with the team...while players are obviously just as divided and have spoken both in favor of or against him? I would usually agree that a third year was warranted, especially with a rookie first round quarterback in the wings! I just can not see how Josh deserves a third year with the state that this team is in, because of him.

[Buff]

We don't know if Bowlen has faith in McDaniels or not. He brought him in to win not to lose. If you're looking at the 6-0 start in vaccum then yes it looks like he knows how win. But what has he done since then? He's won a total of 4 games and he's had three 4 game losing streaks since that 6-0 start Buff.

He has to be held accountable for the string of losing... But I don't think you fire a coach after 2 seasons when one of those is 8-8. Especially when you knew going in that he had no experience and was going to take some lumps along the way. He deserves at least three years to show what he can do.


How could you possibly say that? MUCH of what happens in the NFL are flukes. Most teams are not really as good or as bad as they seem at times.

Sure, flukey stuff happens... But if a team wins in the NFL it's because they played well enough to win that day. Maybe they were aided by a couple of mistakes by the other team, or the officials, but they still have to make the plays and put the points on the board... That's why I've always believed in the Parcells mantra: "You are what your record says you are."

Granted, McDaniels record isn't very good this year, and he ought to be held accountable... But his overall record of 10-14 isn't necessarily fireable yet, IMO.

[Dzone]

Is Gruden even interested in coaching anymore? Has she expressed any interest? How about Cowher? I think I heard that Cowher wants to coach again. Either one of those guys would be a HUGE upgrade over this plebeian.

[TXBRONC]

He has to be held accountable for the string of losing... But I don't think you fire a coach after 2 seasons when one of those is 8-8. Especially when you knew going in that he had no experience and was going to take some lumps along the way. He deserves at least three years to show what he can do.



Sure, flukey stuff happens... But if a team wins in the NFL it's because they played well enough to win that day. Maybe they were aided by a couple of mistakes by the other team, or the officials, but they still have to make the plays and put the points on the board... That's why I've always believed in the Parcells mantra: "You are what your record says you are."

Granted, McDaniels record isn't very good this year, and he ought to be held accountable... But his overall record of 10-14 isn't necessarily fireable yet, IMO.

I said in the very beginning that McDaniels would get three years to prove himself and that the only thing that MIGHT shorten that is a disaster like going 4-14. If that happens Bowlen might very well pull the plug.

True McDaniels overall record is 10-14 but most of that came in the first of last season. If you can only garner a total of wins from the mid point of season to the mid point of the next I don't think that will inspire confidence in your boss that you can do the job.

[Dzone]

Jon Gruden won a super bowl with a no name quarterback named Brad Johnson...He certainly can win a Super Bowl with Tim Tebow

[I Eat Staples]

Is Gruden even interested in coaching anymore? Has she expressed any interest? How about Cowher? I think I heard that Cowher wants to coach again. Either one of those guys would be a HUGE upgrade over this plebeian.

Quoted for Cowher.

[Buff]

Quoted for Cowher.

How can you like Cohwer but not Gruden?

Cowher does nothing for me. He was mediocre for 10 years before he finally won a superbowl as a wildcard.

[Cugel]

He has to be held accountable for the string of losing... But I don't think you fire a coach after 2 seasons when one of those is 8-8. Especially when you knew going in that he had no experience and was going to take some lumps along the way. He deserves at least three years to show what he can do.

. . . .Granted, McDaniels record isn't very good this year, and he ought to be held accountable... But his overall record of 10-14 isn't necessarily fireable yet, IMO.

Normally, you'd be right. But, when the wheels fall off the bus and you start rolling off the edge of the cliff it does no good to say "let's wait to see how this thing turns out!"

#1 Bowlen desperately wants McDaniels to succeed and will try and give him every chance.

#2 Bowlen will end up paying THREE coaches at the same time if he fires McDaniels (Shanahan, McDaniels two remaining years, and the new coach).

#3 Firing the coach in the middle of a season rarely leads to anything good. You have to name an interim coach and then find a new one after the season. It's awkward all around.

But, this ain't the Lions or Bengals or Rams or Browns. The fans aren't used to 2-14 or 3-13 or 4-12 seasons! And right now, the Broncos are on pace for 4-12 -- and it's difficult to imagine them winning much more than 4 or 5 games this year unless something close to a miracle happens.

Reality 101: The Broncos haven't had a season this bad since 1971! That's 39 years for those who are counting.

The Broncos went 5-11 in 1990 (Superbowl hangover) and 6-10 in 1999 (Elway retirement). Other than that, it's been 7 and 9 or better in every single year in the last 3 decades.

No Broncos team has won 4 or fewer games since 1971 (not counting the lockout season of 1982 when they went 2-7) -- and remember that was in a 14 game season, not a 16 game season.


4-12 is a .333 winning percentage. The team hasn't had a season that bad since 1967 back in ye bad olde days of the AFL when they went 3-11! (They went 4-9-1 in 1971, a .444 winning percentage). Those are the two worst seasons in the last 44 years.

There's just NO WAY the fans are going to sit still for this! There will be a MASSIVE drop off in ticket sales at the end of this season unless something is done to give the fans hope.

And saying "we hope next season under Josh will be better" is just not going to cut it!

Now do you think season ticket holders are going to sit quietly and say "let's just give Josh one more year"?

Try selling that to the luxury suite holders! Would you pay over $100,000 to watch this team fall apart again?

Probably, no. :coffee:

Unless this thing gets turned around in a hurry Bowlen will simply have NO CHOICE at the end of the season but to fire McDaniels -- simply to restore some kind of support among the season ticket holders.

You "glass is half-full" people keep ignoring the grim meathook reality here. It's NEVER BEEN THIS BAD in Bowlen's entire tenure as owner! NEVER! By season's end he's simply going to have ZERO choice but to let McDaniels go.

[Cugel]

Jon Gruden won a super bowl with a no name quarterback named Brad Johnson...He certainly can win a Super Bowl with Tim Tebow

Correction: Jon Gruden won a SB with a defense stacked with Dexter Jackson (SB MVP), Simeon Rice, Warren Sapp, Derrick Brooks, Rhone Barber and John Lynch!

They were the 3rd best defense in modern NFL history, behind only the 1985 Bears and the 2000 Ravens. Raiders QB Rich Gannon was intercepted 5 times and the Bucs became the FIRST TEAM in NFL HISTORY to run back THREE picks for TDs in a single SB!

So, sure! If you have one of the top 5 defenses in NFL history you can win a SB with Brad Johnson or Trent Dilfer as QB.

But, that's not exactly the Denver Broncos 2010 or 2011 defense now is it? :coffee:

P.S.: After the game, Oakland's loss sparked a riot in east Oakland. Twelve cars were set on fire and four hundred police officers had to be sent into the streets to subdue the last pockets of resistance.

[I Eat Staples]

How can you like Cohwer but not Gruden?

Cowher does nothing for me. He was mediocre for 10 years before he finally won a superbowl as a wildcard.

That's probably why. :lol:

You like Gruden but not Cowher, I'm the opposite. You also like McD and I hate him, so I guess we have completely opposite coaching philosophies.

[Cugel]

I said in the very beginning that McDaniels would get three years to prove himself and that the only thing that MIGHT shorten that is a disaster like going 4-14. If that happens Bowlen might very well pull the plug.

True McDaniels overall record is 10-14 but most of that came in the first of last season. If you can only garner a total of wins from the mid point of season to the mid point of the next I don't think that will inspire confidence in your boss that you can do the job.

Well the Broncos are currently on pace for 4-12 this season (2-6, 2-6). And it's easy to predict they will have trouble with EVERY division opponent if they get totally blown out by the Raiders at HOME! 59 points?

When have the Broncos EVER lost a division game at HOME by over 30 points? I don't think that's EVER happened during the time Bowlen has owned the team.

At the rate they're going, McDaniels will be lucky if he lasts to the end of the season!

[Lancane]

How can you like Cohwer but not Gruden?

Cowher does nothing for me. He was mediocre for 10 years before he finally won a superbowl as a wildcard.

Actually Cowher is more then likely to be named the head coach of the Carolina Panthers come the end of the season, his family lives there, he has ties to both the organization and the community.

Gruden makes sense, he hates the Raiders and understands the rivalry. He has a deep respect for Tebow and loves the kid and he has a great offensive mind, he's coached every position offensively give the offensive line. And unlike McDaniels he hails from proven coaching trees, he worked under Seifert in San Francisco with Joe Montana, the one pro quarterback that Tebow reminds me of as far as skill set; Holmgren in Green Bay who has always been one of the better offensive minds; and Reid in Philadelphia who is not too bad him damn self. So in the end, Gruden is the better option no matter what the cost.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

Actually Cowher is more then likely to be named the head coach of the Carolina Panthers come the end of the season, his family lives there, he has ties to both the organization and the community.

Gruden makes sense, he hates the Raiders and understands the rivalry. He has a deep respect for Tebow and loves the kid and he has a great offensive mind, he's coached every position offensively give the offensive line. And unlike McDaniels he hails from proven coaching trees, he worked under Seifert in San Francisco with Joe Montana, the one pro quarterback that Tebow reminds me of as far as skill set; Holmgren in Green Bay who has always been one of the better offensive minds; and Reid in Philadelphia who is not too bad him damn self. So in the end, Gruden is the better option no matter what the cost.

Not to mention, he'll probably hire a real defensive coordinator and LET HIM RUN THE DEFENSE! I've been thinking that we might want to take a look at good 'ol Wade Phillips now that he's a free agent. Terrible HC, but he calls a great 3-4 defense... that is, if he'd even consider coming back to Denver.

[Ravage!!!]

I don't think Cowher is as connected to Carolina as people believe.

[Ravage!!!]

I believe Cowher is a much better coach than Gruden...but... Gruden runs an offense that is perfect for Tebow. Short passes. Remember how during his Raiders years, we laughed about Gannons complete dink-n-dunk passing attack?

Ugh... just thinking about it bores me to death.

[Northman]

I don't think Cowher is as connected to Carolina as people believe.

I know he had some connections there because of his daughters but whether or not he would reconsider coaching again i dont know if that will keep him on the east coast.

[Ravage!!!]

I know he had some connections there because of his daughters but whether or not he would reconsider coaching again i dont know if that will keep him on the east coast.

I think when he was living there, with his wife as she was going through her fight with cancer.... was one thing.

But now that his wife has passed.... his daughter is going to college there, BUT... how many people have children that go to college out of state? Tons. So I just don't know if thats enough to limit his options to Carolina when there will be other teams, that have MORE to offer than Carolina.

I just don't think the Carolina connection is as tight as many believe it to be.

[dogfish]

I know he had some connections there because of his daughters but whether or not he would reconsider coaching again i dont know if that will keep him on the east coast.

carolina's a better fit for him either way-- they have a lot of elements of a physical running game already in place, they just need a quarterback and at least one good receiver to take some of the pressure off. . . that, and get jeff otah back. . .

who honestly thinks cowher wants to take over the worst running team in the league? yea, right. . . he's always been a pipe dream here. . .

fine with me anyway-- i agree with buff, i think gruden may be the better coach. . . what he did in oakland impresses me more than anything cowher did in pitt. . . the steelers are a ****ing maching, people seriously need to understand that when evaluating cowher. . . there's a reason they're the best organization in the sport, and it dates far before the chin ever got there. . . he was a replaceable cog, just like everybody else. . . it's easy to see with the way tomlin transitioned in seamlessly, and actually made the team better. . .

i'm not saying cowher isn't a good coach, but we've never seen what he can do without the weight of the steelers whole structure behind him. . . great personnel guys who crank out quality talent that fits the scheme, strong positional coaches to develop the talent, and far and away most important, one of the very best defensive coordinators of all time. . . as far as i'm concerned, that's the guy that makes the present generation steelers great-- dick, lebeau. . . pitt runs on auto-pilot. . . half of cowher's job was just stomping around the sidelines looking pissed. . .

we have no idea if he's ready to take over a failing organization and be responsible for everything (the steelers in the 80s were decidely mediocre)-- i'm not saying he can't do it, but he never has. . . gruden presided over an impressive turnaround in chokeland, even if he wasn't fully responsible. . . they were 4-12 in 1997-- they only went 8-8 his first two years, but each year their point total increased, while their points allowed decreased. . . and of course they went 12-4 and 10-6 and won the division the next two seasons, as well as going to the super bowl largely with his roster the year after he left. . .

i also think cowher's more of a motivator-type coach than a real X's and O's guy. . .don't get me wrong, i'm not saying i'd hate the choice or anything, but i've always kind of suspected that getting outcoached was one of the reasons his team lost repeated AFCCGs under him. . . like shanahan, it's going to be very interesting to see how he does wherever he ends up. . .

there's no guaranteed right answer, but i'd far prefer gruden to cowher-- and believe he's a far more likely candidate, IF bowlen is serious about hiring a proven coach instead of another rookie. . . WHICH we really should if we decide to make a move, but i'm not so sure we will-- make a move OR look for a proven coach if we do. . .

mcdaniels probably has to win at least a token game or two, but i suspect he's probably safe another year. . .

[Jake Klug]

There are no flukes in the NFL. 6-0 was legit at the time, just as the 4-14 is legitimate. That's why you need to look at more than 24 games to determine what kind of coach he is. Plus, you can't hold him accountable for losses and then dismiss his wins - that's shortsided.

Its not short sighted at all. 24 games is actually a lot. So is 18 games. And its only been getting worse. Which is something Ive emphasized to you multiple times.


You laugh off the scheme shift & rebuilding as excuses, but how is any team going to be successful immediately after purging 30+ guys who aren't even good enough to play in the NFL? Shanahan was fired because he was a piss poor GM, so it's not like McDaniels was met with a roster full of superstars.

You dont get excuses for problems that are of your own making. It just doesnt work that way. And its somewhat comical that you say this when Marshall and Doom were both 4th round picks. It took a 1st round pick of the current regime to replace a 4th round pick from the previous regime. And then theres Hillis. Just stop it already. Complaining about the talent McDaniels inherited with whats been going on is hollow at this point.

Youre just perpetuating the excuse making that no one is buying anymore.


I honestly think McDaniels is a good coach... But even if I'm wrong about that, he deserves a third year to prove it one way or another.

No he doesnt. He's done enough damage and could do more. One wasted season has been enough already. Next year also being a wasted year is too big of a risk. There is absolutely no justification for bringing him back save having a cheap owner who doesnt want to spend money.

[Tned]

I picked McD, but I could have easitly gone with McD/Ellis if that was a choice. Xanders is basically a contract/front guy, but McD is calling the shots, so I have a problem with "all of the abvove".

With McD/Ellis not being an option (because Ellis brought in McD and gave him full control), then I think McD has to take the brunt of the blame in terms of the poll.

[Canmore]

I picked McD, but I could have easitly gone with McD/Ellis if that was a choice. Xanders is basically a contract/front guy, but McD is calling the shots, so I have a problem with "all of the abvove".

With McD/Ellis not being an option (because Ellis brought in McD and gave him full control), then I think McD has to take the brunt of the blame in terms of the poll.


I picked all off the above. Bowlen should of been listed too, but the brunt of the blame goes on McDaniels. He is calling the shots.

[SOCALORADO.]

carolina's a better fit for him either way-- they have a lot of elements of a physical running game already in place, they just need a quarterback and at least one good receiver to take some of the pressure off. . . that, and get jeff otah back. . .

who honestly thinks cowher wants to take over the worst running team in the league? yea, right. . . he's always been a pipe dream here. . .

fine with me anyway-- i agree with buff, i think gruden may be the better coach. . . what he did in oakland impresses me more than anything cowher did in pitt. . . the steelers are a ****ing maching, people seriously need to understand that when evaluating cowher. . . there's a reason they're the best organization in the sport, and it dates far before the chin ever got there. . . he was a replaceable cog, just like everybody else. . . it's easy to see with the way tomlin transitioned in seamlessly, and actually made the team better. . .

i'm not saying cowher isn't a good coach, but we've never seen what he can do without the weight of the steelers whole structure behind him. . . great personnel guys who crank out quality talent that fits the scheme, strong positional coaches to develop the talent, and far and away most important, one of the very best defensive coordinators of all time. . . as far as i'm concerned, that's the guy that makes the present generation steelers great-- dick, lebeau. . . pitt runs on auto-pilot. . . half of cowher's job was just stomping around the sidelines looking pissed. . .

we have no idea if he's ready to take over a failing organization and be responsible for everything (the steelers in the 80s were decidely mediocre)-- i'm not saying he can't do it, but he never has. . . gruden presided over an impressive turnaround in chokeland, even if he wasn't fully responsible. . . they were 4-12 in 1997-- they only went 8-8 his first two years, but each year their point total increased, while their points allowed decreased. . . and of course they went 12-4 and 10-6 and won the division the next two seasons, as well as going to the super bowl largely with his roster the year after he left. . .

i also think cowher's more of a motivator-type coach than a real X's and O's guy. . .don't get me wrong, i'm not saying i'd hate the choice or anything, but i've always kind of suspected that getting outcoached was one of the reasons his team lost repeated AFCCGs under him. . . like shanahan, it's going to be very interesting to see how he does wherever he ends up. . .

there's no guaranteed right answer, but i'd far prefer gruden to cowher-- and believe he's a far more likely candidate, IF bowlen is serious about hiring a proven coach instead of another rookie. . . WHICH we really should if we decide to make a move, but i'm not so sure we will-- make a move OR look for a proven coach if we do. . .

mcdaniels probably has to win at least a token game or two, but i suspect he's probably safe another year. . .

I agree. I dont think Cower wants to rebuild a team. And lets face it, DEN needs to be rebuilt. That a 3 year plan. Maybe a year faster, maybe a year longer, but around 3 years.
I dont think Hairlip wants to dick around, and DAL is built to win now. They need 2 o-linemen, and a safety. I also think CAR would fit him well, however they will need a tune-up too.
DEN's gonna need a paint job and a shit load of screen doors, and a guy like Gruden would be perfect for that project.
DEN needs a true, full time GM too.