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Northman
11-08-2010, 01:55 PM
Older article but does have a lot of merit considering Orton's play this year. It also brings up the question did McD jump the gun again by drafting Tebow instead of filling needs around Orton. Is this mistake similiar to the one with Plummer/Cutler? Obviously, Orton is playing far better than Plummer was at the time but did McD get too impatient with Orton? And now where does that leave us? Discuss.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/05/10/why-trading-kyle-orton-makes-no-sense/


Why trading Kyle Orton makes no sense

Posted by Gregg Rosenthal on May 10, 2010 1:44 PM ET
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/assets_c/2010/03/K.%20Orton-thumb-250x185-7257.jpg (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/K.%20Orton.jpg)Kyle Orton (http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/player_main.aspx?sport=NFL&id=3214)'s career year (3,800 yards, 62% completions, 21:12 TD: INT, 7 YPA) didn't win him a lot of respect in Denver's front office based on the Broncos' offseason moves.

The lack of appreciation is now extending into the media.

A sample from Sunday's Denver Post:

Mike Kizla says Orton would have "rocks for brains" to start another game for the Broncos, and should quietly request a trade (http://www.denverpost.com/premium/broncos/ci_15047949).

"Why should Orton stick around and be a clown in the Tim Tebow (http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/player_main.aspx?sport=NFL&id=5096) circus?" Kizla asks.

Woody Paige says the team needs to deal (http://www.denverpost.com/premium/broncos/ci_15047949) the "Deberg-like" Orton. He is apparently "not a true leader. . . . Orton's soft attitude didn't motivate his teammates. . . . Orton is not a short-term fix or a long-range fit for the Broncos."

We don't agree with either position. Orton's best chance for a big contract elsewhere would be to perform well under McDaniels in Denver. He has the inside track on a starting job to open the season. He'd be crazy to want to leave now to be a backup elsewhere.

Trading Orton sounds good for Denver, but who is giving up anything for him at this point? We can't imagine a team that would invest in Orton. We'd argue that keeping Orton around for another year and retaining his rights is more valuable than some sixth-round pick.

Finally, Orton knows McDaniels' system well and he's the best quarterback on the roster.

Here's a scary notion for Denver: he might still be the best quarterback in two years.

TXBRONC
11-08-2010, 02:42 PM
I don't think McDaniels jump. It seems that his plan along was to eventually replace Orton.

For all the yards he's passed for it's only netted the Broncos 2 wins in 8 games.
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SR
11-08-2010, 02:42 PM
Meh. That article didn't really tell me anything or make me think at all. In fact, the only thing I thought was "Kiszla is a dumbass and Woody Paige isn't much better".

If we did trade him, I'd be happy with getting a third and fourth or a second and fifth out of him, or something along those lines. Tebow needs to play, regardless of our record, to be a successful QB in this league. At this point in the year, I'd make the argument that our season is lost and Orton isn't doing anything to win it for us. Contrary to last year when Orton's play never specifically lost or won games, this year he's made costly turnovers at the most inopportune times which, combined with other things, has lead to us losing ball games. He's boring as hell to watch, not a leader, not exciting, not anything I wanna see. Tebow is gonna make mistakes, he's gonna throw bad passes, but he's gonna be exciting to watch and he's gonna bring some life to this team.

MileHighCrew
11-08-2010, 03:08 PM
Orton to Arizona or San Fran makes a lot of sense. Both teams feel like they are a QB away and it is another high pick for Denver

topscribe
11-08-2010, 03:34 PM
Older article but does have a lot of merit considering Orton's play this year. It also brings up the question did McD jump the gun again by drafting Tebow instead of filling needs around Orton. Is this mistake similiar to the one with Plummer/Cutler? Obviously, Orton is playing far better than Plummer was at the time but did McD get too impatient with Orton? And now where does that leave us? Discuss.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/05/10/why-trading-kyle-orton-makes-no-sense/

Actually, I can see why McD drafted Tebow at the time. They really didn't know
what they had in Orton - how could they have?

But now, they really don't know what they have in Tebow, which makes Orton
indispensable at this time.

And wouldn't McClain have looked good in Orange & Blue?

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Northman
11-08-2010, 03:37 PM
Actually, I can see why McD drafted Tebow at the time. They really didn't know
what they had in Orton - how could they have?

But now, they really don't know what they have in Tebow, which makes Orton
indispensable at this time.

And wouldn't McClain have looked good in Orange & Blue?

-----

Well, you knew what we had in Orton. ;)

topscribe
11-08-2010, 03:40 PM
Well, you knew what we had in Orton. ;)

I think it would have been a lot more difficult, were I placing my job on the line . . . :D

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Northman
11-08-2010, 03:42 PM
I think it would have been a lot more difficult, were I placing my job on the line . . . :D

-----

I dont know, you seemed to have been pretty rational about what you did in your research. Sure, im not COMPLETELY sold on Orton but i admit i was wrong about him on certain levels and going by the guy only having one season in that system i would think there is nowhere to go but up. Too bad the rest of the team fell apart. :lol:

SR
11-08-2010, 03:46 PM
I don't think Orton is doing a bad job, but I don't think he can do a good enough job to lead the team to the promise land. Granted, we have A LOT more problems right now than Orton, but I would HATE to see McDaniels do something like get rid of Champ or something stupid like that at the expense of keeping Orton to prove a point because he seems like that kind of guy.

Northman
11-08-2010, 03:49 PM
I don't think Orton is doing a bad job, but I don't think he can do a good enough job to lead the team to the promise land. Granted, we have A LOT more problems right now than Orton, but I would HATE to see McDaniels do something like get rid of Champ or something stupid like that at the expense of keeping Orton to prove a point because he seems like that kind of guy.

Moving Champ wouldnt bother me too much at this point. I love him to death but unless he was willing to move to FS (where i think he would flourish like Woodson did) than i think we have enough positive youth at that position to make a deal. Its always nice to have guys retire as Broncos but the days of really having longterm players is almost nil now.

CHARLIEADAMSFAN
11-08-2010, 03:50 PM
Tebow is raw and a project.... he is going to take a long time but McD obviously thinks in time it will pay off. My feeling is Tebow should ride the bench play a little here and there and we see if we can possibly win with Orton.

topscribe
11-08-2010, 03:50 PM
I dont know, you seemed to have been pretty rational about what you did in your research. Sure, im not COMPLETELY sold on Orton but i admit i was wrong about him on certain levels and going by the guy only having one season in that system i would think there is nowhere to go but up. Too bad the rest of the team fell apart. :lol:

Well, even though McD obviously likes and respects, Orton, he isn't entirely happy
with him, I'm sure. Orton is playing lights out in many parts of the game, of course,
but he just has got to pick it up in the RZ. Sure, much of it isn't his fault, but there
comes a point where he has to will it in.

He was pretty good at it in Chicago - he had a 97 QBR in the RZ. I don't know
what has happened here, except maybe the O-line is worse even than it was in
Chicago - and it was pretty bad then. But I would bet the farm that is one of the
things they're working on as we speak . . . er, write.

The good news is that McD is of the opinion that Orton has not reached his
upside - and he ought to know. But then, a decent running game, and a couple
on the O-line understanding they aren't matadores, would do wonders with
Orton's upside, IMO . . .

-----

SR
11-08-2010, 03:51 PM
Moving Champ wouldnt bother me too much at this point. I love him to death but unless he was willing to move to FS (where i think he would flourish like Woodson did) than i think we have enough positive youth at that position to make a deal. Its always nice to have guys retire as Broncos but the days of really having longterm players is almost nil now.

I don't think he's beyond extending his career at FS.

topscribe
11-08-2010, 03:53 PM
I don't think he's beyond extending his career at FS.

Actually, Champ even said as much . . .

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G_Money
11-08-2010, 03:54 PM
I expected to draft Colt McCoy in the third, not Tebow in the first. Colt had been running an offense like this in college to fine effect, and other than lack of range on some throws seemed like a good Brady-like option for McDaniels and an offense built around that type of QB.

Then we drafted Tebow in the first, and I got confused.

Still, if McDaniels had stuck with Orton instead of drafting a QB in the draft I would have excoriated him. It would have meant strapping his lot to Orton's back, and that seemed like career suicide to me.

But Orton has risen to the challenge. He'll be worth something in trade, though nothing like what we got for Cutler.

I just can't see keeping Orton and having Tim ride the bench for another season, even if only for psychological reasons.

McDaniels needs a rallying point, and Tebow is a walking, breathing rallying point. Orton is an efficient passer, but not the man for the job McDaniels has created through his idiocy, namely digging out of this hole.

Maybe we'd be better off with Orton. I just don't think he can lead this team, and I think McDaniels has trouble allowing others to lead anything other than a march to the door. And this team can't really afford to choke away any more games.

Tebow might be the only guy who can make McDaniels back off, and in return Tebow is an undying loyalist, which might enable teammates to get behind TEBOW, and thus behind McDaniels by default.

Brandon Lloyd keeps coming on the radio and telling me that it is 100% the players who are not executing and the coaches are not at fault. But nobody ever says they need to go out and win for the coach, either. It reminds me too much of the Minnesota locker room, where the guys might be tight with each other but they don't seem to have loyalty to their coaches.

Tebow might change that. Orton won't - even though Orton himself is ALSO a loyalist. He's just not inspiring, apparently.

I dunno - once you draft a QB in the first round, you put a clock on the incumbent. Fellow players know it, fans know it...Orton might get run out of town through no fault of his own. Give him a defense-oriented team and he might be able to win something. We are not that. And whatever Orton's skills are, he doesn't have the magic that poorly constructed teams need to pull out wins.

It's not his fault. But I still say he goes at the end of the year, perhaps with us paying some of his salary or taking back some in trade.

And then we'll find out if Tebow is an NFL QB or not, as we get to witness his growing pains first-hand.

~G

Bosco
11-08-2010, 04:30 PM
For all well as he's played lately, Orton is not someone you can really count on as being a true franchise quarterback, and if you want to be one of those teams that constantly make the playoffs you pretty much need a franchise quarterback. He's just a very good placeholder until Tebow (or even Quinn in a stretch) is ready to take the reigns.


I expected to draft Colt McCoy in the third, not Tebow in the first. Colt had been running an offense like this in college to fine effect, and other than lack of range on some throws seemed like a good Brady-like option for McDaniels and an offense built around that type of QB. Funny you mention that. Josh McDaniels offense is essentially an NFL adapted version of Urban Meyer's spread option that he built after meeting with Meyer on a recruiting trip. After we drafted Tebow, McDaniels came out and said that what basically sealed the deal was Tebow picking up the Broncos terminology and actually using it when conversing with him, all in the span of about 4 hours.

BroncoStud
11-08-2010, 05:59 PM
Trading Orton makes a LOT of sense, he has some value with his over-inflated stats in the spread. Hopefully teams will look past the fact he isn't throwing TDs or converting on 3rd down and someone like Minnesota or Arizona will cough up a 4th rounder for him.

In a typical NFL system he is an average QB. Watch the Bears and Mike Martz drop Cutler back 7 steps on a lot of his drops, Orton couldn't do that to save his life. He might be ok with Peterson running the ball and the Vikings defense playing well. That might be a decent fit for him but he can't make the plays Favre can, even over 40 years old.

TimTebow15MVP
11-08-2010, 06:03 PM
its jsut the media trying to stir shit up. orton been knew he was getting traded. we paid the man for his services well. but tebow is the true franchise quarterback.

claymore
11-08-2010, 06:18 PM
In order to know what Orton is worth to us we HAVE to start Tebow and see what he means to us.

Ravage!!!
11-08-2010, 06:58 PM
For all well as he's played lately, Orton is not someone you can really count on as being a true franchise quarterback, and if you want to be one of those teams that constantly make the playoffs you pretty much need a franchise quarterback. He's just a very good placeholder until Tebow (or even Quinn in a stretch) is ready to take the reigns.



*getting shivers*

Nomad
11-08-2010, 07:00 PM
In order to know what Orton is worth to us we HAVE to start Tebow and see what he means to us.

No doubt!! If BRONCOS lose to KC, then throw Tebow in with the wolves!!

SR
11-08-2010, 07:46 PM
he can't make the plays Favre can, even over 40 years old.

In all fairness to Orton, he wouldn't have to make most of the plays Favre has to make because he wouldn't put himself or his team in a position where he'd have to pull those tricks out of his ass. A lot of Favre's late game heroics come because he throws bad picks, makes errors, and digs his team in to a hole. Orton manages the game better than Favre does.

SR
11-08-2010, 07:46 PM
its jsut the media trying to stir shit up. orton been knew he was getting traded. we paid the man for his services well. but tebow is the true franchise quarterback.

Huh?

HORSEPOWER 56
11-08-2010, 10:53 PM
Personally, I've been pleasantly surprised with Orton this season, but I think he's been exposed the last couple of weeks. Once again, as soon as we play the Ravens they expose all of our weaknesses, and exactly how to use them against us, to the rest of the league.

Orton is relatively reliable and plays okay when healthy as he has been this season. Unfortunately, he's just like his new mentor McDaniels. When things don't go exactly according to plan, he tends to fall apart and doesn't adjust well. If he makes a mistake that costs the team, he typically continues to make the same mistake. If the pass rush is getting pressure, he tends to break down and either takes the sack or forces bad throws much more often.

You can see him get visibly rattled and it's very hard for him to regain his composure. It typically takes something extraordinary to get him back on track like an outstanding catch by Lloyd or a PI penalty for big yardage. Although he's made some big plays, his consistency takes an immediate downturn after the first time he gets sacked.

I no longer dread having Orton as our starter, but after watching him for nearly a season and half, I realize he's just never going to be the type of QB who can consistently win games for you. His stats are as much a credit to his receivers adjusting to the ball as they are to him actually making plays. For every perfect pass he makes, just as many are extremely off target and the WR must make circus-type catches. There's a reason they don't seem to get a lot of YAC.

I really wouldn't mind trading Orton, mostly because to me he's a major cog in the failed McDaniels experiment that is the current Broncos "team". Blow up the majority of the roster and start over with players who haven't been tainted. That's the only way to get the trash and the stink out of Denver.

TimTebow15MVP
11-08-2010, 10:58 PM
its time for tebow to start getting 10 snaps per game though. and not just running the ball. let him throw it around a little josh. its not gonna hurt ortons inflated stats one bit.

Lancane
11-09-2010, 12:00 AM
its jsut the media trying to stir shit up. orton been knew he was getting traded. we paid the man for his services well. but tebow is the true franchise quarterback.

You're correct, this was a sentiment based article written by a reporter who is use to writing out of his ass...like most of those who are PFT reporters. But we also have to take into consideration that it was written awhile ago. That even a local reporter recently not even two days back had written a story that Orton is pretty much as I've already said many of times...a system quarterback. Yeah, he may break the 5,000 yard mark and the NFL record for most passing yards in a season, but McDaniels himself said he's more interested in the W-L category when it comes to his quarterback, so you have to wonder when that will come into play in regards to Tebow.

I think McDaniels has to trade him, simply because the fans are getting fed up with seeing nothing promising and we have this hope that Tebow is at least a beginning to the answer. If Orton is the starter come next year, I hope McDaniels has a good raincoat with a hoodie, because the tomatoes thrown by the fans will be coming down around him...if he still has a job.

BCJ
11-09-2010, 01:37 AM
didnt think we needed an article to tell us what most know. Gee, if we trade orton, we are left with a reject in Quinn and a raw QB who has thrown exactly as many passes as Tom Jackson threw for us.

TXBRONC
11-09-2010, 06:46 AM
didnt think we needed an article to tell us what most know. Gee, if we trade orton, we are left with a reject in Quinn and a raw QB who has thrown exactly as many passes as Tom Jackson threw for us.

I'm not trying to bait here, but at one time in his career Orton had never thrown a pass in the NFL.

jhns
11-09-2010, 09:19 AM
We would need to find a replacement if Tebow sucks but trading Orton wouldn't hurt the team. He is the least clutch QB in this league. We have had a lot of close games and Orton doesn't do anything late in these games. He has been bad on 3rd down and can't throw in the red zone. We wouldn't miss him.

As for the thread title, many names could replace Orton. Why trading Marshall makes no sense. Why trading Cutler makes no sense. Why trading Hillis makes no sense. Why trading Sheffler makes no sense. Why trading a future first makes no sense. Why trading the player you got with a future first for a backup TE makes no sense. Why trading up for a first round QB that isn't going to play on a team with tons of holes makes no sense.

I don't think this team cares if their moves make sense.

Lonestar
11-09-2010, 11:02 AM
I keep hearing that this team has so mnay holes and that using "4" picks on Tebow could have used to fill those holes.

Does anyone want enlighten the rest of us what those holes are and WHO you would went after with those 4 picks.
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Ravage!!!
11-09-2010, 11:26 AM
In all fairness to Orton, he wouldn't have to make most of the plays Favre has to make because he wouldn't put himself or his team in a position where he'd have to pull those tricks out of his ass. A lot of Favre's late game heroics come because he throws bad picks, makes errors, and digs his team in to a hole. Orton manages the game better than Favre does.

That sounds so pretty, but on paper you just see that Orton has lost 14 of the last 18 games. Orton "manages" the game in the 2nd and 3rd quarters, but can't score to start, and absolutely CAN NOT be relied upon to score in the 4th quarter, especially when the game is on the line. He loses nearly EVERY TIME any team scores 10 in the second half, and thats because those are the tighter games.

Favre WINS games (and loses games, granted). Orton will keep you from losing, or, lose you games.

Ravage!!!
11-09-2010, 11:31 AM
I keep hearing that this team has so mnay holes and that using "4" picks on Tebow could have used to fill those holes.

Does anyone want enlighten the rest of us what those holes are and WHO you would went after with those 4 picks.
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You don't see holes, and you don't see depth problems on this team?? :elefant:

In what was considered to be the deepest draft in a decade, and you don't think we could have found more players with more picks? :shocked:

TXBRONC
11-09-2010, 11:44 AM
You don't see holes, and you don't see depth problems on this team?? :elefant:

In what was considered to be the deepest draft in a decade, and you don't think we could have found more players with more picks? :shocked:

We're old on the defensive line, linebacker (even with a healthy Dumervil and D.J. Williams we still need help) running back tight end, corner back and safety. So yeah we have holes to fill imo.
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arapaho2
11-09-2010, 12:02 PM
You don't see holes, and you don't see depth problems on this team?? :elefant:

In what was considered to be the deepest draft in a decade, and you don't think we could have found more players with more picks? :shocked:


certainly coulda used a rb with speed and power...an OLB...ILB...pass catching TE...NT...DE...just to name a few

SR
11-09-2010, 12:08 PM
That sounds so pretty, but on paper you just see that Orton has lost 14 of the last 18 games. Orton "manages" the game in the 2nd and 3rd quarters, but can't score to start, and absolutely CAN NOT be relied upon to score in the 4th quarter, especially when the game is on the line. He loses nearly EVERY TIME any team scores 10 in the second half, and thats because those are the tighter games.

Favre WINS games (and loses games, granted). Orton will keep you from losing, or, lose you games.

No disagreement here.

Northman
11-09-2010, 12:24 PM
I keep hearing that this team has so mnay holes and that using "4" picks on Tebow could have used to fill those holes.

Does anyone want enlighten the rest of us what those holes are and WHO you would went after with those 4 picks.
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Why? So we could listen to you telling us why those players couldnt help this team? :lol:

Northman
11-09-2010, 12:25 PM
You don't see holes, and you don't see depth problems on this team?? :elefant:

In what was considered to be the deepest draft in a decade, and you don't think we could have found more players with more picks? :shocked:

Dude, stop it. It doesnt help his arguement here. :lol:

Now, maybe in another thread he will come back and say we dont have the players but not this one.

Oldschoolcrush
11-09-2010, 12:52 PM
That sounds so pretty, but on paper you just see that Orton has lost 14 of the last 18 games. Orton "manages" the game in the 2nd and 3rd quarters, but can't score to start, and absolutely CAN NOT be relied upon to score in the 4th quarter, especially when the game is on the line. He loses nearly EVERY TIME any team scores 10 in the second half, and thats because those are the tighter games.

Favre WINS games (and loses games, granted). Orton will keep you from losing, or, lose you games.
Really, what options are available to Orton?
I watched him miss seeing wide open receivers last year all the time.... My first assessment of him was that he was not a very good check down QB, seems he was a bit nervous and always took the dump..... Mobility was the other problem I saw..... I did however see accuracy.... Touch? Not enough deep strikes to tell!
Now without any running attack we have flooded the dump short pass with receivers and opened the vision into the secondary.... He has adapted and is throwing more deep balls with accuracy. Now imagine if there was a balanced offense where we had a "prolific" receiving back that can bowl over or hurdle the defense (eh hem) as a solid dump option along with a TE? Orton still seems one dimensional but has proven he has the talent to learn and adapt to the options available. Now that he sees the deep strike, I wonder if he could become a good check down QB if given the support through appropriate players who should be in place as the dump option. As far as mobility, there is no PAP so it's hard to say. It's nice to force a QB into motion when it isn't part of what they do naturally; still don't know if he's accurate or proficient in motion.... You can't tell me you aren't impressed with some of those guns into tight coverage.

To go out on a limb and say that Orton can't manage or keeps you from winning is ridiculous to me given the circumstances. How can anyone make such an assessment when.
#1) The tools (targets) necessary to do so don't exist.
#2) The options concerning play book aren't available.

Look what happened with the fleaflicker.... The defense is already reigned in with short passes and man to man deep; they run the ball a couple times and then BAM..... Imagine if PAP was an option?
An entire and important aspect of the game is missing by no fault of Orton and we say he can't manage or win?
I don't know is all I can say..... Give him the tools and options, and then and only then will we see if he can manage the field, the clock and the scoreboard.

I had high hopes for Cutler until his ego was attached to every throw; never once did I see him air it out with touch and finesse.... Every throw was a gun like he had something to prove.
Orton doesn't have a gun like that, but it aint too shabby; he also has the ability to put some air under the ball. As far as the ability to manage, we'll never know until he is given the chance. If you think he has been, we've been watching a different game!

Elevation inc
11-09-2010, 01:00 PM
MCD did jump the gun, the good news for us is he is making kyle look good, the reality though is this team wont hit greatness with orton at the helm. It just wont....we spent a 25th pick on tebow he is the future. He can do what orton can very easily and more. I like the season orton is having he is balling yds wise compared to last but this passing system and brandon lloyd is a big reason for ortons sucess.

I have no doubt Tebow can do what orton is doing right now. If its me, I trade orton for a second rd pick at seasons end and dont look back. I trade our first for a later first and extra second rd pick and i use those 5 picks in the first 2 rds to actually rebuild this franchise like it should be. Get a Young FA back, and 1 speed back in the draft to pair with moreno and lendale, get 2 impact DL players(a Pass rushing DE, and NT), and Lb's(nickle ILB, and OLb depth, Get a left guard in FA by paying for a young upstart. and draft 1 as well.

Im tired of the lack of actual rebuilding. Time to get it started asap, and rebuilding doesnt include orton....I want the youth to play im tired of the bringing in constant 30 somethings to win now...that hasnt worked in over 5 years.

Ravage!!!
11-09-2010, 01:16 PM
Really, what options are available to Orton?
I watched him miss seeing wide open receivers last year all the time.... My first assessment of him was that he was not a very good check down QB, seems he was a bit nervous and always took the dump..... Mobility was the other problem I saw..... I did however see accuracy.... Touch? Not enough deep strikes to tell!
Now without any running attack we have flooded the dump short pass with receivers and opened the vision into the secondary.... He has adapted and is throwing more deep balls with accuracy. Now imagine if there was a balanced offense where we had a "prolific" receiving back that can bowl over or hurdle the defense (eh hem) as a solid dump option along with a TE? Orton still seems one dimensional but has proven he has the talent to learn and adapt to the options available. Now that he sees the deep strike, I wonder if he could become a good check down QB if given the support through appropriate players who should be in place as the dump option. As far as mobility, there is no PAP so it's hard to say. It's nice to force a QB into motion when it isn't part of what they do naturally; still don't know if he's accurate or proficient in motion.... You can't tell me you aren't impressed with some of those guns into tight coverage.

To go out on a limb and say that Orton can't manage or keeps you from winning is ridiculous to me given the circumstances. How can anyone make such an assessment when.
#1) The tools (targets) necessary to do so don't exist.
#2) The options concerning play book aren't available.

Look what happened with the fleaflicker.... The defense is already reigned in with short passes and man to man deep; they run the ball a couple times and then BAM..... Imagine if PAP was an option?
An entire and important aspect of the game is missing by no fault of Orton and we say he can't manage or win?
I don't know is all I can say..... Give him the tools and options, and then and only then will we see if he can manage the field, the clock and the scoreboard.

I had high hopes for Cutler until his ego was attached to every throw; never once did I see him air it out with touch and finesse.... Every throw was a gun like he had something to prove.
Orton doesn't have a gun like that, but it aint too shabby; he also has the ability to put some air under the ball. As far as the ability to manage, we'll never know until he is given the chance. If you think he has been, we've been watching a different game!

I'm not saying Orton is playing badly. I'm saying taht its STILL obvious to me that he's just a game manager. He can't score. He's never been a guy to score, and we can't say he doesn't have the "weapons" if he's able to throw the ball for a million yards. He just falls back into the same "conservative" mentality once he get close to the endzone. Windows get smaller, lanes shorten, and defenders sit more when they don't have to worry about the deep ball. So what happens? Orton goes back into "orton" mode.

He's not a franchise guy. Thats all I'm saying. He doesn't WIN you games. We HAVE had several opportunities THIS year... to win the game by having the ball LAST and being within a score to win it. What has happened? He's thrown interceptions, and has given up fumbles. If you haven't seen this, we ABSOLUTELY are watching different games.

If this was the QB of 2 years ago, people would be throwing him under the buss for having "ego" problems and having the inability to read defenses. They would be crucifying him for throwing INTs in the redzone, or not having the "Mental head" to handle it. But because we like Orton as a guy, we tend to try and give him more leeway on his play. He's playing alright, but lets be honest.... his record when the defense is NOT shutting the other team out... is TERRIBLE at best.

The criticisms you had of Cutler, were the EXACT same ones people used to complain about Elway, as well. Never having any touch, always trying to throw the ball too hard. Now I'm not comparing the two's skill, I'm just saying that is the same problem even thee GOAT had at a young stage of his career. Thats not new, and not unique.

This isn't about Cutler, he's not on the team and isn't a concern of mine. This is about Orton, and GOOD QBs win when they have the chance. Orton has had chances. We have LOST to bad teams. He hasn't been able to convert on 3rd downs. He can't score in the first quarter, and he can't score in the 4th, especially when the game is on the line. What kind of chances does the guy need to prove himself other than putting the ball in HIS hands, with the game on the line, last of the 4th quarter?

He's 4-14 since our defense stopped shutting teams completely out in the entire second half. That says a LOT.

Oldschoolcrush
11-09-2010, 02:02 PM
He just falls back into the same "conservative" mentality once he get close to the endzone. Windows get smaller, lanes shorten, and defenders sit more when they don't have to worry about the deep ball. So what happens? Orton goes back into "orton" mode.

This IS the point and it shows the lack of options available..... This is where you need the power running where it pulls defenders even closer..... This is where you need a sure handed bruiser of a TE that can use his body to provide distance and a target. All of a sudden you are open to PAP and even a screen if they're too aggressive. When was the last time you saw a screen other than a WR screen?
3rd down conversions are exactly the same. As a defense are you worried they'll pick it up on the ground? Hell No! So you flood the 1st down marker and give them anything short..... Even if Orton gets you on a deep strike (low percentage on the receiver being open as well as completion), it doesn't matter... They'll stop it the next time on percentage alone! Even if they do give up a score to the Broncos; they'll be numerous other failures that put their own offense on the field who is hopefully more balanced and can sustain a drive..... I'd gamble given those percentages all day long! Has absolutely NOTHING to do with Orton.
You need shifts and misdirects in the redzone, you need the power running, you need the TE that knows how to use his body to provide a target and you need to provide mobility for your QB to both draw defenders and expose seems. Exactly how many different looks are available with your receivers when it's the single aspect of offense available? You expect their to be opportunity as well as completion? I don't care who is at the helm, there is a hole in the ship and it is sinking!

Oldschoolcrush
11-09-2010, 02:17 PM
we can't say he doesn't have the "weapons" if he's able to throw the ball for a million yards.
Absolutely we can say that..... If defenders are reigned in and the only option is the pass and more importantly the deep pass; they'll play that percentage all day long..... It's not going to be crazy with safety support and they'll like we've said through either percentage or a natural shortening of the field keep that deep threat from taking it to the house....... Those millions of yards have come from millions of possessions and say nothing about weapons, just the fact that any defense in their right mind is happy with completely shutting down the line and concentrating on the shortened field and preventing high percentage completions and 3rd down conversions..... Give Orton 25 here 25 there, if it doesn't coincide with a sustainable drive..... Who cares? Defenses can afford to play soft in the secondary and you think it's the tremendous weapons we have at WR where a different quarterback would find success?
It's an appealing delusion, but a delusion no less!
There is talent there, I'm just saying..... We can only imagine what that talent would look like in a balanced offense. No need to make it seem like those short comings are found in Orton.

Lonestar
11-09-2010, 02:32 PM
MCD did jump the gun, the good news for us is he is making kyle look good, the reality though is this team wont hit greatness with orton at the helm. It just wont....we spent a 25th pick on tebow he is the future. He can do what orton can very easily and more. I like the season orton is having he is balling yds wise compared to last but this passing system and brandon lloyd is a big reason for ortons sucess.

I have no doubt Tebow can do what orton is doing right now. If its me, I trade orton for a second rd pick at seasons end and dont look back. I trade our first for a later first and extra second rd pick and i use those 5 picks in the first 2 rds to actually rebuild this franchise like it should be. Get a Young FA back, and 1 speed back in the draft to pair with moreno and lendale, get 2 impact DL players(a Pass rushing DE, and NT), and Lb's(nickle ILB, and OLb depth, Get a left guard in FA by paying for a young upstart. and draft 1 as well.

Im tired of the lack of actual rebuilding. Time to get it started asap, and rebuilding doesnt include orton....I want the youth to play im tired of the bringing in constant 30 somethings to win now...that hasnt worked in over 5 years.

Not sure I agree totally with you here but in case you did not notice



# Name Pos. Ht. Wt. Age Exp. College
58 Alexander, Kevin LB 6-4 265 23 R Clemson
68 Beadles, Zane OL 6-4 305 23 R Utah
32 Cox, Perrish CB 6-0 198 23 R Oklahoma State
87 Decker, Eric WR 6-3 220 23 R Minnesota
34 McCarthy, Kyle S 6-1 210 24 R Notre Dame
69 Olsen, Eric OL 6-3 305 22 R Notre Dame
15 Tebow, Tim QB 6-3 245 23 R Florida
88 Thomas, Dem WR 6-3 229 22 R Georgia Tech
22 Thompson, Syd CB 5-9 191 23 R California
41 Vaughn, Cass CB 5-11 195 23 R Mississippi
50 Walton, J.D. OL 6-3 305 23 R Baylor
75 Clark, Chris OL 6-5 315 25 1 Southern Mississippi
64 Daniels, Stanle OL 6-4 320 25 1 Washington
56 Ayers, Robert LB 6-3 274 25 2 Tennessee
30 Bruton, David S 6-2 211 23 2 Notre Dame
4 Colquitt, Britton P 6-3 205 25 2 Tennessee
82 Gronkowski, D TE 6-5 255 25 2 Maryland
31 McBath, Darcel S 6-1 198 25 2 Texas Tech
27 Moreno, Know RB 5-11 210 23 2 Georgia
81 Quinn, Richard TE 6-4 255 24 2 North Carolina
78 Clady, Ryan OL 6-6 325 24 3 Boise State
46 Larsen, Spe FB 6-2 243 26 3 Arizona
51 Mays, Joe LB 5-11 246 25 3 North Dakota State
98 McBean, Ryan DL 6-5 297 26 3 Oklahoma State
19 Royal, Eddie WR 5-10 180 24 3 Virginia Tech
59 Woodyard, LB 6-0 222 24 3 Kentucky
74 Harris, Ryan OL 6-5 300 25 4 Notre Dame
94 Moss, Jarvis LB 6-7 257 26 4 Florida
5 Prater, Matt K 5-10 187 26 4 Central Florida
9 Quinn, Brady QB 6-3 235 26 4 Notre Dame
79 Thomas, Mar DL 6-3 316 25 4 Florida
52 Hunter, Jason LB 6-4 271 27 5 Appalachian State
73 Kuper, Chris OL 6-4 303 27 5 North Dakota
26 Maroney, Laur RB 5-11 220 25 5 Minnesota
90 Smith, Le Kevin DL 6-3 308 28 5 Nebraska
99 Vickerson, Kevi DL 6-5 321 27 5 Michigan State
91 Fields, Ronald DL 6-2 314 29 6 Mississippi State
8 Orton, Kyle QB 6-4 225 27 6 Purdue
33 Jones, Nate CB 5-10 185 28 7 Rutgers
55 Williams, D.J. LB 6-1 242 28 7 Miami (Fla.)
57 Haggan, Mario LB 6-3 267 30 8 Mississippi State
84 Lloyd, Brandon WR 6-0 194 29 8 Illinois
97 Bannan, Justin DL 6-3 310 31 9 Colorado
10 Gaffney, Jabar WR 6-2 200 29 9 Florida
21 Goodman, And CB 5-10 184 32 9 South Carolina
89 Graham, Daniel TE 6-3 257 31 9 Colorado
28 Buckhalter, Co RB 6-0 223 32 10 Nebraska
23 Hill, Renaldo S 5-11 205 31 10 Michigan State
71 Hochstein, Russ OL 6-4 305 33 10 Nebraska
66 Paxton, Lonie LS 6-2 265 32 11 Sacramento State
24 Bailey, Champ CB 6-0 192 32 12 Georgia
76 Williams, Jamal DL 6-3 348 34 13 Oklahoma State
20 Dawkins, Brian S 6-0 210 37 15 Clemson
Practice Squad
# Name Pos. Ht. Wt. Age Exp. College
35 Ball, Lance RB 5-9 220 25 2 Maryland
63 Byers, Jeff OL 6-3 301 25 R USC
17 Davis, Britt WR 6-3 205 24 1 Northern Illinois
83 Geer, Riar TE 6-4 250 23 R Colorado
86 Nalbone, John TE 0
13 Riley, Eron WR 0
54 Robinson, Lee LB 6-2 256 23 1 Alcorn State
96 Unrein, Mitch DL 0
Injured Reserve
# Name Pos. Ht. Wt. Age Exp. College
92 Dumervil, Elvis LB 5-11 248 26 5 Louisville
25 White, LenDale RB 6-1 235 25 5 USC

12 Willis, Matthew WR 6-0 190 26 3 UCLA
Reserve/Not With Team
# Name Pos. Ht. Wt. Age Exp. College
Garland, Ben DL 6-5 275 22 R Air Force



this team is loaded with young talent and that does not include

Dooom
52 Hunter, Jason LB 6-4 271 27 5 Appalachian State
73 Kuper, Chris OL 6-4 303 27 5 North Dakota
26 Maroney, Laurence RB 5-11 220 25 5 Minnesota
90 Smith, Le Kevin DL 6-3 308 28 5 Nebraska
99 Vickerson, Kevin DL 6-5 321 27 5 Michigan State
91 Fields, Ronald DL 6-2 314 29 6 Mississippi State
8 Orton, Kyle QB 6-4 225 27 6 Purdue


who are the next tier of age group.

that my friend is rebuilding on the fly.

Oldschoolcrush
11-09-2010, 02:41 PM
I want to have hope..... I want to think Gronkowski sp? will show up and make an impact at TE..... I'd like to think Tebow could bring mobility and set defenses back on their heals.....
We saw success when they brought Tebow in for some running plays.... It wasn't his running that was successful, it was the fact that it was so bizarre.... It was the exact play every single time, even I kept waiting for something unexpected to happen.... Once it's no longer strange or possibly unpredictable, defenders are going to be licking their chops for a chance to hit him. Everyone crying out to put Tebow in is going to witness the same shortcomings and Tebow getting eaten up more times than he's successful in the option. A mobile QB in this offense as it is right now will be extremely painful to watch... Mark my words!
Without a successful running game on it's own, forget about it!
We have huge potential in Tebow, we need to provide him with support before even dreaming of putting him in!

BroncoStud
11-09-2010, 02:47 PM
Really, what options are available to Orton?
I watched him miss seeing wide open receivers last year all the time.... My first assessment of him was that he was not a very good check down QB, seems he was a bit nervous and always took the dump..... Mobility was the other problem I saw..... I did however see accuracy.... Touch? Not enough deep strikes to tell!
Now without any running attack we have flooded the dump short pass with receivers and opened the vision into the secondary.... He has adapted and is throwing more deep balls with accuracy. Now imagine if there was a balanced offense where we had a "prolific" receiving back that can bowl over or hurdle the defense (eh hem) as a solid dump option along with a TE? Orton still seems one dimensional but has proven he has the talent to learn and adapt to the options available. Now that he sees the deep strike, I wonder if he could become a good check down QB if given the support through appropriate players who should be in place as the dump option. As far as mobility, there is no PAP so it's hard to say. It's nice to force a QB into motion when it isn't part of what they do naturally; still don't know if he's accurate or proficient in motion.... You can't tell me you aren't impressed with some of those guns into tight coverage.

To go out on a limb and say that Orton can't manage or keeps you from winning is ridiculous to me given the circumstances. How can anyone make such an assessment when.
#1) The tools (targets) necessary to do so don't exist.
#2) The options concerning play book aren't available.

Look what happened with the fleaflicker.... The defense is already reigned in with short passes and man to man deep; they run the ball a couple times and then BAM..... Imagine if PAP was an option?
An entire and important aspect of the game is missing by no fault of Orton and we say he can't manage or win?
I don't know is all I can say..... Give him the tools and options, and then and only then will we see if he can manage the field, the clock and the scoreboard.

I had high hopes for Cutler until his ego was attached to every throw; never once did I see him air it out with touch and finesse.... Every throw was a gun like he had something to prove.
Orton doesn't have a gun like that, but it aint too shabby; he also has the ability to put some air under the ball. As far as the ability to manage, we'll never know until he is given the chance. If you think he has been, we've been watching a different game!

I guess I've been watching a different game than you...

Orton has improved this year but that should be a natural given he had a full year to learn the offense. He still doesn't convert and he still doesn't score. Period.

He is at his worst when he needs to be at his best and he lacks the big play ability of a great QB. He is Brad Johnson circa 2010. Game-manager with average arm strength, good accuracy, limited mobility, doesn't cost you many games but doesn't win you many games.

The problem is Denver doesn't have the Bucs defense or running game and Orton isn't good enough to overcome it. He doesn't inspire much hope of doing anything.

BroncoStud
11-09-2010, 02:49 PM
MCD did jump the gun, the good news for us is he is making kyle look good, the reality though is this team wont hit greatness with orton at the helm. It just wont....we spent a 25th pick on tebow he is the future. He can do what orton can very easily and more. I like the season orton is having he is balling yds wise compared to last but this passing system and brandon lloyd is a big reason for ortons sucess.

I have no doubt Tebow can do what orton is doing right now. If its me, I trade orton for a second rd pick at seasons end and dont look back. I trade our first for a later first and extra second rd pick and i use those 5 picks in the first 2 rds to actually rebuild this franchise like it should be. Get a Young FA back, and 1 speed back in the draft to pair with moreno and lendale, get 2 impact DL players(a Pass rushing DE, and NT), and Lb's(nickle ILB, and OLb depth, Get a left guard in FA by paying for a young upstart. and draft 1 as well.

Im tired of the lack of actual rebuilding. Time to get it started asap, and rebuilding doesnt include orton....I want the youth to play im tired of the bringing in constant 30 somethings to win now...that hasnt worked in over 5 years.

If we get a 2nd round pick for Orton that would be the most amazing trade coup since Herschel Walker got sent to the Vikes by Jimmy Johnson.

BCJ
11-09-2010, 02:53 PM
I'm not trying to bait here, but at one time in his career Orton had never thrown a pass in the NFL.

Even though it was a shitty Bears team of QBs, throwing a rookie in from 3rd string reps in training camp to 2nd on some weeks during the season to now starting? I will stick with Orton. Guys like Elway or Marino and more recent Bradford had the playbook as the starter from the beginning of training camp.

Bones
11-09-2010, 02:58 PM
I really don't want to see Tebow at all this year. Finish the season out with Orton and make a move before the draft if needed.

Oldschoolcrush
11-09-2010, 03:11 PM
He's not a franchise guy. Thats all I'm saying. He doesn't WIN you games. We HAVE had several opportunities THIS year... to win the game by having the ball LAST and being within a score to win it. What has happened? He's thrown interceptions, and has given up fumbles. If you haven't seen this, we ABSOLUTELY are watching different games.

What exactly is happening here?
They play the soft secondary giving up strategic chunks to Orton but prevent him from managing the game and converting 3rd downs.... Everyone criticizing the defense and I can't believe with all the possessions failed on offense the game is still within reason; they must have been doing something right... Serious.....
Now to the point in question..... All these weapons you spoke of, but now that he is forced to win it in the air, the secondary is flooded with defenders.... Underneath would seem the most reasonable, but we have no production from TE's until San Fran.... It becomes forced, this is why they are able to get pressure..... This is not ideal for any QB, and if you study success in the hurry up; it heavily relies on the quick pass.... TE's, WR outs and even the receiving back..... You seem to forget that you still have to manage downs as well as the clock, something that has been unsuccessful throughout the entire game.... It's the same look, when it becomes an issue of downs, all the WR's are reigned in and it's the very same thing that has proven unsuccessful time and time again. Done, end of story!

Broncolingus
11-09-2010, 03:12 PM
Why trading Orton makes no sense...

Damn straight!

Anyone that party's like this ain't goin' nowhere!!!

http://cdn.faniq.com/images/blog/58f90fadd607e954f51c0273c864666f.jpg

Ravage!!!
11-09-2010, 03:19 PM
If we get a 2nd round pick for Orton that would be the most amazing trade coup since Herschel Walker got sent to the Vikes by Jimmy Johnson.

I actually think that is the going rate for a starting QB. There are teams (although getting fewer by the day) that are looking for a QB that can just "manage" the game and not beat them.. while they build and probably draft a future QB. Orton fits that role.. for a team like... San Fran, Seattle, AZ, and Oakland. Hell the way Carson Palmer is playing.. maybe Cinci.

Teams that don't have "that guy" and are jus tlooking for a placeholder. A second round pick would be the going rate. Although, since this would be his 3rd team in just 6 years, it might be a 3rd.

Ravage!!!
11-09-2010, 03:27 PM
What exactly is happening here?
They play the soft secondary giving up strategic chunks to Orton but prevent him from managing the game and converting 3rd downs.... Everyone criticizing the defense and I can't believe with all the possessions failed on offense the game is still within reason; they must have been doing something right... Serious.....
Now to the point in question..... All these weapons you spoke of, but now that he is forced to win it in the air, the secondary is flooded with defenders.... Underneath would seem the most reasonable, but we have no production from TE's until San Fran.... It becomes forced, this is why they are able to get pressure..... This is not ideal for any QB, and if you study success in the hurry up; it heavily relies on the quick pass.... TE's, WR outs and even the receiving back..... You seem to forget that you still have to manage downs as well as the clock, something that has been unsuccessful throughout the entire game.... It's the same look, when it becomes an issue of downs, all the WR's are reigned in and it's the very same thing that has proven unsuccessful time and time again. Done, end of story!

Soo.. you are trying to say that its eeryone else's fault AROUND Orton, and the fact that we are 4-14 and not able to score, has NOTHING to do with our starting QB?? REally? Because BEFORE this season, Orton was considered a top guy, and considered a scoring QB? Actually, before this sesason, he was considered to be much worse. This Season, his CAREER year, has boosted the perception of him. I"m not buying into that perception, and I still see a guy that has the same problems as before.

He's playing pretty well right now, but he's not the guy of the future and he's not a guy that can WIN you games. He's a guy you rely on to NOT lose you games! This season, late in tight games, he's done EXACTLY what we don't want from a Kyle Orton. He's thrown INTs and fumbled the ball away.

I'm not taking away from the fact that our coach has traded away our best offensive weapons. I'm not taking away from the fact that his offensive "scheme" sucks. I'm just saying that Orton's play has proved, over time, that he absolutely is NOT a game winner, but merely (at best) a game manager.

Oldschoolcrush
11-09-2010, 03:36 PM
He still doesn't convert and he still doesn't score. Period.

Have you actually looked at available reads?
There is a fine line between conservative and careless, I've seen Orton zip the ball right along that line many times...... I wanted to throw shit at the TV last year how many times he missed seeing a wide open receiver.... Believe me, I'm not forgiving of that at all; I don't see it this year.
You see interceptions when QB's force the ball, we see the same thing from Orton when it is a do or die situation..... I think Orton has saved us from a worse fate than not converting 3rd downs... Forcing the ball and giving up interceptions!

People that praise Orton as being underrated aren't stat whores... They actual watch film and critique his choices as they unfold. Incredible growth since last year, from what this offense is able to show us.
I repeat, all I can say is..... I don't know!
The burden the fan base put upon Orton is not within a reasonable or responsible view.

Oldschoolcrush
11-09-2010, 03:40 PM
I just had an epiphany..... Maybe we could trade Orton to Cleveland for a RB and two draft picks?

TXBRONC
11-09-2010, 03:42 PM
Even though it was a shitty Bears team of QBs, throwing a rookie in from 3rd string reps in training camp to 2nd on some weeks during the season to now starting? I will stick with Orton. Guys like Elway or Marino and more recent Bradford had the playbook as the starter from the beginning of training camp.

He only started because it was necessary. Also Orton was the starter from late in camp to the 15th game of the season when Grossman came back from injury.

I respect your opinion on this but I just don't agree with you.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

Cugel
11-09-2010, 03:42 PM
Meh. That article didn't really tell me anything or make me think at all. In fact, the only thing I thought was "Kiszla is a dumbass and Woody Paige isn't much better".

If we did trade him, I'd be happy with getting a third and fourth or a second and fifth out of him, or something along those lines. Tebow needs to play, regardless of our record, to be a successful QB in this league. At this point in the year, I'd make the argument that our season is lost and Orton isn't doing anything to win it for us. Contrary to last year when Orton's play never specifically lost or won games, this year he's made costly turnovers at the most inopportune times which, combined with other things, has lead to us losing ball games. He's boring as hell to watch, not a leader, not exciting, not anything I wanna see. Tebow is gonna make mistakes, he's gonna throw bad passes, but he's gonna be exciting to watch and he's gonna bring some life to this team.

This might be the dumbest quote I've seen this month!

Right now, Kyle Orton is the 3rd hightest rated QB in the NFL, just behind Phillip Rivers & Peyton Manning, -- but ahead of Aaron Rogers & Drew Brees. Despite the Broncos having a bye week, he's STILL the #2 passer in the league.

Statistics:
Passing (Qualified* | All) Rk Player Team Pos Comp Att Pct Att/G Yds Avg Yds/G TD Int 1st 1st% Lng 20+ 40+ Sck QB Rating

1 Philip Rivers SD QB 215 329 65.3 36.6 2,944 8.9 327.1 19 8 142 43.2 59T 47 9 22 102.9

2 Drew Brees NO QB 261 374 69.8 41.6 2,587 6.9 287.4 18 12 133 35.6 80T 23 4 14 91.7

3 Kyle Orton DEN QB 195 316 61.7 39.5 2,510 7.9 313.8 12 5 114 36.1 71 40 9 21 92.7

4 Peyton Manning IND QB 228 351 65.0 43.9 2,478 7.1 309.8 16 4 132 37.6 73T 24 5 10 96.1

5 Aaron Rodgers GB QB 192 303 63.4 33.7 2,300 7.6 255.6 15 9 116 38.3 86T 30 3 17 90.6

Personally, I positively HATED getting Orton, whom I constantly referred to as "Captain Neck-Beard". I've had to admit I was dead wrong.

If you have ZERO running game you're going to get picked off -- but Orton only has 5 picks in 8 games! That's NOT a lot.

IF Kyle Orton had been hurt this season, the Broncos would be 0-8. Period. It's been his play that's been responsible for what little success they've had.

Right now it pains me to admit that Kyle Orton is the best player on the team. Hands down (Dawkins would be a close second).

I don't even like Orton that much, but give the man credit for being a real professional, making the best of a bad situation and having a career year!

McDaniels made a TON of stupid moves in his short career here, but making Kyle Orton the starting QB isn't one of them. :coffee:

Cugel
11-09-2010, 03:50 PM
I just had an epiphany..... Maybe we could trade Orton to Cleveland for a RB and two draft picks?

Don't even JOKE about that! That's just the kind of trade McDaniels has been making since he got here!

Trade away a starting QB and wind up with a backup TE and a fifth round draft pick. I could totally see it. :rolleyes:

Ravage!!!
11-09-2010, 03:55 PM
People that praise Orton as being underrated aren't stat whores... They actual watch film and critique his choices as they unfold. Incredible growth since last year, from what this offense is able to show us.
I repeat, all I can say is..... I don't know!
The burden the fan base put upon Orton is not within a reasonable or responsible view.

SOrry man. Not buying this. You believe that your views are better because you believe them to be, and those that don't are putting too much burden. Now you are saying that your views are more "educated" because you DVR the game, and feel you know what you are talking about.

Still sounds like you are ignoring the fact that he doesn't score, he doesn't convert 3rd down conversions, and his record is 4-14 over the last 18 games. Orton was BAD last season. He was really good the first four games of this year. Since then, he's just looking more and more and more like the ORton we knew we had.

Cugel
11-09-2010, 03:56 PM
Have you actually looked at available reads?
There is a fine line between conservative and careless, I've seen Orton zip the ball right along that line many times...... I wanted to throw shit at the TV last year how many times he missed seeing a wide open receiver.... Believe me, I'm not forgiving of that at all; I don't see it this year.
You see interceptions when QB's force the ball, we see the same thing from Orton when it is a do or die situation..... I think Orton has saved us from a worse fate than not converting 3rd downs... Forcing the ball and giving up interceptions!

People that praise Orton as being underrated aren't stat whores... They actual watch film and critique his choices as they unfold. Incredible growth since last year, from what this offense is able to show us.
I repeat, all I can say is..... I don't know!
The burden the fan base put upon Orton is not within a reasonable or responsible view.

This is a case where the stats are right. If you look at the top 5 rated passers in the NFL you see:

1. Phillip Rivers.
2. Drew Brees.
3. Kyle Orton.
4. Peyton Manning
5. Aaron Rogers.

You can dismiss stats all you want, but those are EXACTLY what 4 QBs anybody with a brain would select as among the top 5 QBs in the NFL -- and Kyle Orton is right among them.

You can't say "the stats are meaningless" when they point to exactly the QBs anybody would select as the elite QBs of the NFL! Are they only "meaningless" when it comes to Orton, but NOT "meaningless" when they point to Rivers, Brees, Manning & Rogers having good seasons passing the football?

He's in pretty select company this season and could easily deserve to make the pro-bowl. He might not go because his team stinks bad, but that's not his fault.

No running game? Lousy OL blocking? No defense? That is squarely on McDaniels' shoulders. :coffee:

Ravage!!!
11-09-2010, 04:12 PM
This is a case where the stats are right. If you look at the top 5 rated passers in the NFL you see:

1. Phillip Rivers.
2. Drew Brees.
3. Kyle Orton.
4. Peyton Manning
5. Aaron Rogers.

You can dismiss stats all you want, but those stats are EXACTLY what 4 QBs anybody with a brain would select as among the top 5 QBs in the NFL -- and Kyle Orton.

He's in pretty select company this season and could easily deserve to make the pro-bowl. He might not go because his team stinks bad, but that's not his fault.

No running game? Lousy OL blocking? No defense? That is squarely on McDaniels' shoulders. :coffee:


No.. sorry.. Not true.

No way people put Orton in the top 4 QBs in the NFL, this year or ever. He's played good football, but he's not in the Rothlesburger league. People aren't going to put him above Brady.

The QB rating is about the lamest of stats people can use to rate a QB. It's not a full-proof stat and doesn't take SOOO many things into consideration. It was a formula that was developed for TV viewers, and is often used WAYyyyy to much to try and determine whats actually happening on the field.

It doesn't take into consideration 3rd down conversion,s.. it doesn't take into account 4th quarter play, play under pressure, or even play in blow-out games.

I was listening to Dilfer talk about QBs (and I absolutely respect his breakdown of the QB and their play) and the two QBs he was complimenting the most.. was Phillip Rivers (playing the absolute best in the NFL) and Eli Manning. Said Eli is processing as much info as his brother, and is putting HIS players int the best positions to win with his formation/protection, and audible calls.. and is doing it as well as ANYONE in the NFL (including his brother).

Sorry, but I think Dilfer has a pretty good "brain" on his shoulders when it comes to QBs, and Orton's name just didn't come up as being a top guy.

Oldschoolcrush
11-09-2010, 04:17 PM
This is a case where the stats are right. If you look at the top 5 rated passers in the NFL you see:

1. Phillip Rivers.
2. Drew Brees.
3. Kyle Orton.
4. Peyton Manning
5. Aaron Rogers.

You can dismiss stats all you want, but those are EXACTLY what 4 QBs anybody with a brain would select as among the top 5 QBs in the NFL -- and Kyle Orton is right among them.

He's in pretty select company this season and could easily deserve to make the pro-bowl. He might not go because his team stinks bad, but that's not his fault.

No running game? Lousy OL blocking? No defense? That is squarely on McDaniels' shoulders. :coffee:
And in all fairness, we also have to say that the monster numbers he is putting up are coming from a ridiculous number of possessions....
If the offense could actual sustain a drive and consume the clock a bit along with a proper balance of running; those stats are either going to plummet or develop..... Who knows? The stats are really not a good indication of the production of Orton..... The Broncos are never going to win if they can't get a hold on the number of possessions in a game!

I also have to disagree with the aspect of defense, with the numbers Orton is putting up without scores?... You can only imagine how many times the defense is asked to stop the opposition. Every single game should have been a blow out; just the fact that they have kept many of them within reason is commendable. If the offense could increase their drives scoring by 10%, the Broncos would have won most of their games.

Ravage!!!
11-09-2010, 04:19 PM
And in all fairness, we also have to say that the monster numbers he is putting up are coming from a ridiculous number of possessions....
If the offense could actual sustain a drive and consume the clock a bit along with a proper balance of running; those stats are either going to plummet or develop..... Who knows? The stats are really not a good indication of the production of Orton..... The Broncos are never going to win if they can't get a hold on the number of possessions in a game!

I also have to disagree with the aspect of defense, with the numbers Orton is putting up without scores?... You can only imagine how many times the defense is asked to stop the opposition. Every single game should have been a blow out; just the fact that they have kept many of them within reason is commendable. If the offense could increase their drives scoring by 10%, the Broncos would have won most of their games.

I agree. .. good points. The defense has done a much better job than I expected this year, and has been the strongest unit of our team... imo.

jhns
11-09-2010, 04:20 PM
This is a case where the stats are right. If you look at the top 5 rated passers in the NFL you see:

1. Phillip Rivers.
2. Drew Brees.
3. Kyle Orton.
4. Peyton Manning
5. Aaron Rogers.


That is a list by yards, not passer rating. He is 8th in passer rating or 6th if you take out guys that haven't played all year. He is also 14th in completion percentage and in a four way tie at 11th in TDs. He has also only completed %58 of passes in our 6 losses. He has his worst ratings in the first and fourth quarters. He has a 68 QB rating when this team is within 7 in the fourth quarter. He only completes %40 of his passes in the red zone.

Orton is much improved this season but that doesn't mean much. He is the very definition of empty stats. Yards without points. He is at his worst when we need him the most.

Oldschoolcrush
11-09-2010, 04:25 PM
No.. sorry.. Not true.

No way people put Orton in the top 4 QBs in the NFL, this year or ever. He's played good football, but he's not in the Rothlesburger league. People aren't going to put him above Brady.

The QB rating is about the lamest of stats people can use to rate a QB. It's not a full-proof stat and doesn't take SOOO many things into consideration. It was a formula that was developed for TV viewers, and is often used WAYyyyy to much to try and determine whats actually happening on the field.

It doesn't take into consideration 3rd down conversion,s.. it doesn't take into account 4th quarter play, play under pressure, or even play in blow-out games.

I was listening to Dilfer talk about QBs (and I absolutely respect his breakdown of the QB and their play) and the two QBs he was complimenting the most.. was Phillip Rivers (playing the absolute best in the NFL) and Eli Manning. Said Eli is processing as much info as his brother, and is putting HIS players int the best positions to win with his formation/protection, and audible calls.. and is doing it as well as ANYONE in the NFL (including his brother).

Sorry, but I think Dilfer has a pretty good "brain" on his shoulders when it comes to QBs, and Orton's name just didn't come up as being a top guy.
And see, I actually agree that the stats mean very little; but then out of the other corner of your mouth it seems you want to indulge 3rd down conversions as if they are the sole responsibility of the QB?
No QB can win the game with their arm alone.... Period... End of story!
This is exactly what is being asked of Orton.... And as you said, We've had chances to win several games; logic only prevails that he must be doing a pretty decent job with it..... And?

Cugel
11-09-2010, 04:27 PM
And in all fairness, we also have to say that the monster numbers he is putting up are coming from a ridiculous number of possessions....
If the offense could actual sustain a drive and consume the clock a bit along with a proper balance of running; those stats are either going to plummet or develop..... Who knows? The stats are really not a good indication of the production of Orton..... The Broncos are never going to win if they can't get a hold on the number of possessions in a game!

I also have to disagree with the aspect of defense, with the numbers Orton is putting up without scores?... You can only imagine how many times the defense is asked to stop the opposition. Every single game should have been a blow out; just the fact that they have kept many of them within reason is commendable. If the offense could increase their drives scoring by 10%, the Broncos would have won most of their games.

If the scores were anything like reasonable you might have a point. But, it wasn't Kyle Orton giving up EIGHTY FIVE points in the last two games!

You could possibly stretch a point and blame him for a couple of scores this season due to his 5 INTs -- but definitely NOT 6 TDs a game average -- which is what the defense is averaging right now!

They couldn't even stop the NFL's WORST team -- the 49ers from marching the length of the field on them repeatedly.

Cugel
11-09-2010, 04:35 PM
Originally Posted by Ravage!!! View Post
No.. sorry.. Not true.

No way people put Orton in the top 4 QBs in the NFL, this year or ever. He's played good football, but he's not in the Rothlesburger league. People aren't going to put him above Brady.


No one will ever suggest Kyle Orton is among the top 5 QBs in the NFL. (Nobody sane that is).

But, Rivers, Manning, Brees and Aaron Rogers ARE. And this season, the passing stats bear that out. And right there with them is Kyle Orton.

So, you can't just dismiss the stats when they point to the guys everybody would acknowledge as the best QBs in the NFL -- and then dismiss Orton's stats as "meaningless."

Clearly the stats are NOT meaningless. They bear out exactly what anybody who watches football knows: Brees, Rivers, Manning & Rogers are among the top QBs and top passers.

Orton has a 92 passer rating and a very favorable TD/INT ratio and he's passed for a lot of yards despite having to face up to a fierce pass rush -- because every team knows the Broncos can't run the ball to save their lives and MUST pass on nearly every down.

He's been hurried, and harried and knocked down and repeatedly sacked in every game, yet he's hung in there and kept his cool and throw accurate passes without a lot of picks.

Kyle Orton has made a believer out of me this season. He's the one bright light in an otherwise dark season of failure and misery.

jhns
11-09-2010, 04:36 PM
No QB can win the game with their arm alone.... Period... End of story!

The Colts have had years where they won a ton of games and were last or second to last in rushing. It really isn't fair to compare him to Manning but your statement still isn't true. We will be expecting our QB to win us some games as long as we are in a pass first system. If you don't think Orton can win some games for this team, he isn't the QB we need.

Oldschoolcrush
11-09-2010, 04:40 PM
If the scores were anything like reasonable you might have a point. But, it wasn't Kyle Orton giving up EIGHTY FIVE points in the last two games!

You could possibly stretch a point and blame him for a couple of scores this season due to his 5 INTs -- but definitely NOT 6 TDs a game average -- which is what the defense is averaging right now!

They couldn't even stop the NFL's WORST team -- the 49ers from marching the length of the field on them repeatedly.
And I absolutely agree, the defense is completely demoralized which I have pointed to in several other posts..... Again beyond stat whoring, with an offense that can't produce: manage the clock, sustain drives, score or even win field position..... It limits what a defense is able to do in response.... Do you understand it's dangerous to blitz a QB for fear of giving up a huge gain when the scoreboard is against you? It's not just one risk and then you ask your offense to show up if you get beat..... It's the defense on the field.... over and over and over again.
How can you gain so many yards without scoring on offense? It's not a difficult riddle.... You are placing your defense on the field way, way to much..... I'm certainly not surprises by the outcome.... Injuries and a complete breakdown!

Oldschoolcrush
11-09-2010, 05:13 PM
The Colts have had years where they won a ton of games and were last or second to last in rushing. It really isn't fair to compare him to Manning but your statement still isn't true. We will be expecting our QB to win us some games as long as we are in a pass first system. If you don't think Orton can win some games for this team, he isn't the QB we need.
And now you're reaching..... You also need to make note that I don't attribute it solely to the run or lack there of.
With a prolific quarterback like Manning, it's a different mind set..... You surround him with targets and quite the opposite, his threat happens in the air and sets up the run..... And I really find it hard to indulge this when Addai averaged over 4 ypc and 7 ypr..... The Broncos are dead last in rushing and no way is there any receiving yards from our RB's......
Wow.... Really? Apples and oranges, lets concentrate on what's clearly not working for the Broncos.....
Shannahan was building that target offense around Cutler with an Oline to offer protection; what McD is trying to do makes no sense at all.
It's not Manning, you need a bit more balance..... And I hate to say this, but Manning might win games with his arm alone; but it's not going to take home the trophy.....And?..... Certainly as a Bronco you understand this when the Bronco offense under Elway ripped through defenses with TD as a RB....
Is that what we're being downgraded too, wanting to simply win more games.... Isn't there a point beyond that?

Look, I'm not riding the Orton Band Wagon, I just ended up there...but I'm certainly not ready to jump off! Just not yet!

BroncoStud
11-09-2010, 05:17 PM
This is a case where the stats are right. If you look at the top 5 rated passers in the NFL you see:

1. Phillip Rivers.
2. Drew Brees.
3. Kyle Orton.
4. Peyton Manning
5. Aaron Rogers.

You can dismiss stats all you want, but those are EXACTLY what 4 QBs anybody with a brain would select as among the top 5 QBs in the NFL -- and Kyle Orton is right among them.

You can't say "the stats are meaningless" when they point to exactly the QBs anybody would select as the elite QBs of the NFL! Are they only "meaningless" when it comes to Orton, but NOT "meaningless" when they point to Rivers, Brees, Manning & Rogers having good seasons passing the football?

He's in pretty select company this season and could easily deserve to make the pro-bowl. He might not go because his team stinks bad, but that's not his fault.

No running game? Lousy OL blocking? No defense? That is squarely on McDaniels' shoulders. :coffee:

Umm, not exactly.

Orton is 8th in the NFL in passer rating.
Orton is 14th in completion percentage.
Orton is 26th in 3rd down conversions.
Orton is 11th in Touchdowns.

You can make up whatever numbers you want, but the OFFICIAL numbers do not support your argument.

David Garrard has more TDs than Orton does in over HALF the attempts! Ryan Fitzpatrick has more TDs than Orton in 100 less attempts and not starting the first 2 weeks. Denver is a SPREAD OFFENSE, the QB is supposed to put up numbers. All the yards in the world don't mean jack if you aren't getting the ball in the endzone and coverting passes on 3rd down to sustain drives.

Oldschoolcrush
11-09-2010, 05:29 PM
This indulging of stats, personally is really tired and old..... Is anyone watching the ******* game?

BroncoStud
11-09-2010, 07:32 PM
This indulging of stats, personally is really tired and old..... Is anyone watching the ******* game?

Yep, I watch every game and see a QB who isn't capable of elevating his team. Like many of us agree on, history tells us that Orton is at his worst when his team requires greatness. He just isn't going to take anyone to the next level, he isn't that sort of talent.

Far more Brad Johnson than John Elway.

Lonestar
11-09-2010, 08:30 PM
Umm, not exactly.

Orton is 8th in the NFL in passer rating.
Orton is 14th in completion percentage.
Orton is 26th in 3rd down conversions.
Orton is 11th in Touchdowns.

You can make up whatever numbers you want, but the OFFICIAL numbers do not support your argument.

David Garrard has more TDs than Orton does in over HALF the attempts! Ryan Fitzpatrick has more TDs than Orton in 100 less attempts and not starting the first 2 weeks. Denver is a SPREAD OFFENSE, the QB is supposed to put up numbers. All the yards in the world don't mean jack if you aren't getting the ball in the endzone and coverting passes on 3rd down to sustain drives.

Just curious how many picks do those qbs have. Not at a computer of I'd check. Thanks for checking.
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Lonestar
11-09-2010, 08:34 PM
If the scores were anything like reasonable you might have a point. But, it wasn't Kyle Orton giving up EIGHTY FIVE points in the last two games!

You could possibly stretch a point and blame him for a couple of scores this season due to his 5 INTs -- but definitely NOT 6 TDs a game average -- which is what the defense is averaging right now!

They couldn't even stop the NFL's WORST team -- the 49ers from marching the length of the field on them repeatedly.

Not so sure that OAK and sfo will wind up the worst team at the EOY. IIRC we had a couple of tds called back in the SFO loss.
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claymore
11-09-2010, 08:36 PM
Not so sure that OAK and sfo will wind up the worst team at the EOY. IIRC we had a couple of tds called back in the SFO loss.
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For legitimate reasons. Just like the 2 td's that were called back against Oakland the week prior.

That could have been a 73-14 game. :laugh:

BroncoStud
11-09-2010, 09:07 PM
Just curious how many picks do those qbs have. Not at a computer of I'd check. Thanks for checking.
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Fitpatrick - 13 TDS, 7 INTS, 227 ATTEMPTS
Garrard - 13 TDS, 7 INTs, 149 ATTEMPTS
Cassel - 12 TDS, 4 INTS, 214 ATTEMPTS
Orton - 12 TDS, 5 INTS, 316 ATTEMPTS

Lonestar
11-09-2010, 09:38 PM
Is that what we're being downgraded too, wanting to simply win more games.... Isn't there a point beyond that?

Look, I'm not riding the Orton Band Wagon, I just ended up there...but I'm certainly not ready to jump off! Just not yet!

Yes fans want wins regardless of the quality to them. Well not all fans.

I for one want to drive them into the ground. Keep the pedal to the metal and win convincingly.

I hated all of those years where we would be up by a couple 3 TDs and then relax, knowing we were the best team. Only to have to come back late in the game to try and kick a last minute FG for a win.

This team has never had that killer instict.
Give me wins by 2TDs or more anyday and when that starts happening Playoffs will not be a "in the playoffs anything can happen"-mike S type of thing they will be fist in the mouth games that there is no doubt in anyones mind what is going to happen.

But hey that's just me.

Give me the PIT mentality any day.
Same applies to the winning mentality that comes from NE.
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Ravage!!!
11-09-2010, 11:09 PM
Fitpatrick - 13 TDS, 7 INTS, 227 ATTEMPTS
Garrard - 13 TDS, 7 INTs, 149 ATTEMPTS
Cassel - 12 TDS, 4 INTS, 214 ATTEMPTS
Orton - 12 TDS, 5 INTS, 316 ATTEMPTS

wow.... Thats just sad.

Ravage!!!
11-09-2010, 11:18 PM
That is a list by yards, not passer rating. He is 8th in passer rating or 6th if you take out guys that haven't played all year. He is also 14th in completion percentage and in a four way tie at 11th in TDs. He has also only completed %58 of passes in our 6 losses. He has his worst ratings in the first and fourth quarters. He has a 68 QB rating when this team is within 7 in the fourth quarter. He only completes %40 of his passes in the red zone.

Orton is much improved this season but that doesn't mean much. He is the very definition of empty stats. Yards without points. He is at his worst when we need him the most.


This indulging of stats, personally is really tired and old..... Is anyone watching the ******* game?

Yes.. I'm watching the game. THIS is what I see. I see a QB that can't score, can't convert third downs, and can't play in the fourth quarter...especially when the game is close.

I'mwith you COMPLETELY that stats do NOT tell the story. I've said it a thousand times, and absolutely agree with you. But dude, we must be watching through different glasses if all you see are positive things coming from Orton. He's playing better, but really, he's still playing the kind of football we expect out of Kyle Orton. The difference is the first 4 games where we gave him 50 passes a game.

HORSEPOWER 56
11-09-2010, 11:22 PM
That is a list by yards, not passer rating. He is 8th in passer rating or 6th if you take out guys that haven't played all year. He is also 14th in completion percentage and in a four way tie at 11th in TDs. He has also only completed %58 of passes in our 6 losses. He has his worst ratings in the first and fourth quarters. He has a 68 QB rating when this team is within 7 in the fourth quarter. He only completes %40 of his passes in the red zone.

Orton is much improved this season but that doesn't mean much. He is the very definition of empty stats. Yards without points. He is at his worst when we need him the most.

BAM! Great post. Trade Orton while he has value... /thread.

Elevation inc
11-10-2010, 10:02 AM
Not sure I agree totally with you here but in case you did not notice



# Name Pos. Ht. Wt. Age Exp. College
58 Alexander, Kevin LB 6-4 265 23 R Clemson
68 Beadles, Zane OL 6-4 305 23 R Utah
32 Cox, Perrish CB 6-0 198 23 R Oklahoma State
87 Decker, Eric WR 6-3 220 23 R Minnesota
34 McCarthy, Kyle S 6-1 210 24 R Notre Dame
69 Olsen, Eric OL 6-3 305 22 R Notre Dame
15 Tebow, Tim QB 6-3 245 23 R Florida
88 Thomas, Dem WR 6-3 229 22 R Georgia Tech
22 Thompson, Syd CB 5-9 191 23 R California
41 Vaughn, Cass CB 5-11 195 23 R Mississippi
50 Walton, J.D. OL 6-3 305 23 R Baylor
75 Clark, Chris OL 6-5 315 25 1 Southern Mississippi
64 Daniels, Stanle OL 6-4 320 25 1 Washington
56 Ayers, Robert LB 6-3 274 25 2 Tennessee
30 Bruton, David S 6-2 211 23 2 Notre Dame
4 Colquitt, Britton P 6-3 205 25 2 Tennessee
82 Gronkowski, D TE 6-5 255 25 2 Maryland
31 McBath, Darcel S 6-1 198 25 2 Texas Tech
27 Moreno, Know RB 5-11 210 23 2 Georgia
81 Quinn, Richard TE 6-4 255 24 2 North Carolina
78 Clady, Ryan OL 6-6 325 24 3 Boise State
46 Larsen, Spe FB 6-2 243 26 3 Arizona
51 Mays, Joe LB 5-11 246 25 3 North Dakota State
98 McBean, Ryan DL 6-5 297 26 3 Oklahoma State
19 Royal, Eddie WR 5-10 180 24 3 Virginia Tech
59 Woodyard, LB 6-0 222 24 3 Kentucky
74 Harris, Ryan OL 6-5 300 25 4 Notre Dame
94 Moss, Jarvis LB 6-7 257 26 4 Florida
5 Prater, Matt K 5-10 187 26 4 Central Florida
9 Quinn, Brady QB 6-3 235 26 4 Notre Dame
79 Thomas, Mar DL 6-3 316 25 4 Florida
52 Hunter, Jason LB 6-4 271 27 5 Appalachian State
73 Kuper, Chris OL 6-4 303 27 5 North Dakota
26 Maroney, Laur RB 5-11 220 25 5 Minnesota
90 Smith, Le Kevin DL 6-3 308 28 5 Nebraska
99 Vickerson, Kevi DL 6-5 321 27 5 Michigan State
91 Fields, Ronald DL 6-2 314 29 6 Mississippi State
8 Orton, Kyle QB 6-4 225 27 6 Purdue
33 Jones, Nate CB 5-10 185 28 7 Rutgers
55 Williams, D.J. LB 6-1 242 28 7 Miami (Fla.)
57 Haggan, Mario LB 6-3 267 30 8 Mississippi State
84 Lloyd, Brandon WR 6-0 194 29 8 Illinois
97 Bannan, Justin DL 6-3 310 31 9 Colorado
10 Gaffney, Jabar WR 6-2 200 29 9 Florida
21 Goodman, And CB 5-10 184 32 9 South Carolina
89 Graham, Daniel TE 6-3 257 31 9 Colorado
28 Buckhalter, Co RB 6-0 223 32 10 Nebraska
23 Hill, Renaldo S 5-11 205 31 10 Michigan State
71 Hochstein, Russ OL 6-4 305 33 10 Nebraska
66 Paxton, Lonie LS 6-2 265 32 11 Sacramento State
24 Bailey, Champ CB 6-0 192 32 12 Georgia
76 Williams, Jamal DL 6-3 348 34 13 Oklahoma State
20 Dawkins, Brian S 6-0 210 37 15 Clemson
Practice Squad
# Name Pos. Ht. Wt. Age Exp. College
35 Ball, Lance RB 5-9 220 25 2 Maryland
63 Byers, Jeff OL 6-3 301 25 R USC
17 Davis, Britt WR 6-3 205 24 1 Northern Illinois
83 Geer, Riar TE 6-4 250 23 R Colorado
86 Nalbone, John TE 0
13 Riley, Eron WR 0
54 Robinson, Lee LB 6-2 256 23 1 Alcorn State
96 Unrein, Mitch DL 0
Injured Reserve
# Name Pos. Ht. Wt. Age Exp. College
92 Dumervil, Elvis LB 5-11 248 26 5 Louisville
25 White, LenDale RB 6-1 235 25 5 USC

12 Willis, Matthew WR 6-0 190 26 3 UCLA
Reserve/Not With Team
# Name Pos. Ht. Wt. Age Exp. College
Garland, Ben DL 6-5 275 22 R Air Force



this team is loaded with young talent and that does not include

Dooom
52 Hunter, Jason LB 6-4 271 27 5 Appalachian State
73 Kuper, Chris OL 6-4 303 27 5 North Dakota
26 Maroney, Laurence RB 5-11 220 25 5 Minnesota
90 Smith, Le Kevin DL 6-3 308 28 5 Nebraska
99 Vickerson, Kevin DL 6-5 321 27 5 Michigan State
91 Fields, Ronald DL 6-2 314 29 6 Mississippi State
8 Orton, Kyle QB 6-4 225 27 6 Purdue


who are the next tier of age group.

that my friend is rebuilding on the fly.


:beer:


there is some difference between young players and young talent I was alluding to.....we do have some young guys and guys i have big hopes for, but for example on the DL....Bannan, williams, and green were all huge busts this year....that was def a shanny DL haul josh put in.....and thomas, fields and vickerson are FA's...so the old guys we brought in failed and the young guys who should be playing the most are all FA's and will probally leave...thats what i was trying to point out.....

Elevation inc
11-10-2010, 10:04 AM
I actually think that is the going rate for a starting QB. There are teams (although getting fewer by the day) that are looking for a QB that can just "manage" the game and not beat them.. while they build and probably draft a future QB. Orton fits that role.. for a team like... San Fran, Seattle, AZ, and Oakland. Hell the way Carson Palmer is playing.. maybe Cinci.

Teams that don't have "that guy" and are jus tlooking for a placeholder. A second round pick would be the going rate. Although, since this would be his 3rd team in just 6 years, it might be a 3rd.

if he was traded today it would be a third but at seasons end if he keeps his stat pce he will make the probowl and be worth a second.....i guarentee a team liek san fran could use a game manger like orton. They have a young OL devloping, a great RB, Wr's coming around and a good TE.....San fran is actually a good spot for orton come to think of it.....im pretty sure they would do a second rd pick......that would leave orton and troy smith in SF, thats pretty good for them...

Elevation inc
11-10-2010, 10:09 AM
wow.... Thats just sad.

lol sure shows just how empty orton stats are this year

Mike
11-10-2010, 10:18 AM
No one will ever suggest Kyle Orton is among the top 5 QBs in the NFL. (Nobody sane that is).

But, Rivers, Manning, Brees and Aaron Rogers ARE. And this season, the passing stats bear that out. And right there with them is Kyle Orton.

So, you can't just dismiss the stats when they point to the guys everybody would acknowledge as the best QBs in the NFL -- and then dismiss Orton's stats as "meaningless."

Clearly the stats are NOT meaningless. They bear out exactly what anybody who watches football knows: Brees, Rivers, Manning & Rogers are among the top QBs and top passers.

Orton has a 92 passer rating and a very favorable TD/INT ratio and he's passed for a lot of yards despite having to face up to a fierce pass rush -- because every team knows the Broncos can't run the ball to save their lives and MUST pass on nearly every down.

He's been hurried, and harried and knocked down and repeatedly sacked in every game, yet he's hung in there and kept his cool and throw accurate passes without a lot of picks.

Kyle Orton has made a believer out of me this season. He's the one bright light in an otherwise dark season of failure and misery.

Now tell me how those QBs do in the 4th Qtr with the game on the line.

arapaho2
11-10-2010, 12:20 PM
If the scores were anything like reasonable you might have a point. But, it wasn't Kyle Orton giving up EIGHTY FIVE points in the last two games!

You could possibly stretch a point and blame him for a couple of scores this season due to his 5 INTs -- but definitely NOT 6 TDs a game average -- which is what the defense is averaging right now!

They couldn't even stop the NFL's WORST team -- the 49ers from marching the length of the field on them repeatedly.


really?....lets ignore the fact the offense has 5 empty fruitless drives ...in fact were scoreles the entire first half while the defense held the 9rs to 3 points

yeah by all means it wasnt the offenses fault:lol:

we score a measely 10 points in the first half...we win...simple as that

topscribe
11-10-2010, 12:22 PM
And in all fairness, we also have to say that the monster numbers he is putting up are coming from a ridiculous number of possessions....

Well, only partly. If you look at Orton's YPA, it is at 7.9, second only to Rivers.
That has nothing to do with the number of passes he's thrown and everything
to do with the yardage he has amassed, along with that number, of course.



If the offense could actual sustain a drive and consume the clock a bit along with a proper balance of running; those stats are either going to plummet or develop..... Who knows? The stats are really not a good indication of the production of Orton..... The Broncos are never going to win if they can't get a hold on the number of possessions in a game!

I also have to disagree with the aspect of defense, with the numbers Orton is putting up without scores?... You can only imagine how many times the defense is asked to stop the opposition. Every single game should have been a blow out; just the fact that they have kept many of them within reason is commendable. If the offense could increase their drives scoring by 10%, the Broncos would have won most of their games.As McDaniels himself has said, the Broncos have got to stop saddling Orton
the 2nds/ 3rds and forever. When a QB is regularly faced with 3rd & 7,8,9,& 10s,
it becomes very difficult to sustain drives on a consistent basis, no matter who
the QB is. That depends significantly on avoiding penalties and sustaining at
least a decent running game.

Defenses are just too good to overcome that all the time. So that is a big
reason scoring is down.

Another criticism I have seen, ad nauseam, is Orton's production in the RZ.
Those who really know football - or if they do know football, who try to become
a bit more open-minded - know that a team has to be able to pose a running
threat to do well there. It has been explained time and again how room to get
open for receivers closes down, and how much harder it is to advance against
defenses down there. The coaches have clearly expressed to us how critical
the running game is in the RZ.

Trust me, the game of football involves more than one player.

(BTW, Much of this was not aimed specifically at you, Oldschool. I was speaking
generically.)

-----

sanluis
11-10-2010, 12:30 PM
I don't understand why anyone would even think of trading Orton. If he gets hurt you guys are screwed. This will be a season that Denver hasn't seen in a long time ... like 1960's long time.

You guys want to get rid of someone look at wink IMO. And that isn't even fair due to injuries... Hawkins is just as important as Orton is on O. Without him Denver's D is missing it's heart.

topscribe
11-10-2010, 12:31 PM
Fitpatrick - 13 TDS, 7 INTS, 227 ATTEMPTS
Garrard - 13 TDS, 7 INTs, 149 ATTEMPTS
Cassel - 12 TDS, 4 INTS, 214 ATTEMPTS
Orton - 12 TDS, 5 INTS, 316 ATTEMPTS

Rushing Game, YPA

Buffalo (Fitzpatrick) - 4.3
Jacksonville (Garrart) - 4.2
Kansas City (Cassel) - 5.0
Denver (Orton) - 2.9 (#32 in league)

The statistics you have been liberally spewing forth are very shallow and
represent skewed conclusions. Unless you take allllllllllll the factors in
consideration, everything you are doing is all wet . . .

-----

topscribe
11-10-2010, 12:39 PM
If the scores were anything like reasonable you might have a point. But, it wasn't Kyle Orton giving up EIGHTY FIVE points in the last two games!

You could possibly stretch a point and blame him for a couple of scores this season due to his 5 INTs -- but definitely NOT 6 TDs a game average -- which is what the defense is averaging right now!

They couldn't even stop the NFL's WORST team -- the 49ers from marching the length of the field on them repeatedly.


really?....lets ignore the fact the offense has 5 empty fruitless drives ...in fact were scoreles the entire first half while the defense held the 9rs to 3 points

yeah by all means it wasnt the offenses fault:lol:

we score a measely 10 points in the first half...we win...simple as that


Did you get a good laugh out of that, Rav? Well, when you can gather yourself
together again, you might (or might not, according to your degree of bias) note
that Denver on defense ranks #27 against the rush an #30 against the pass in
terms of yards given up. That concerns the average yardage they are giving up
per play. That is on the defense.

-----

Ravage!!!
11-10-2010, 12:39 PM
Rushing Game, YPA

Buffalo (Fitzpatrick) - 4.3
Jacksonville (Garrart) - 4.2
Kansas City (Cassel) - 5.0
Denver (Orton) - 2.9 (#32 in league)

The statistics you have been liberally spewing forth are very shallow and
represent skewed conclusions. Unless you take allllllllllll the factors in
consideration, everything you are doing is all wet . . .

-----

I'm pretty sure, Garrard and Fitz are contributors to that rushing game.

But Orton has had the same rushing attack behind him when he's throwing teh ball between the twenties. He has the same rushing attack in the fourth quarter, as he does the first, and can't score in either one. The fact that his passer rating drops to 68 when the opponent is within 7 points in the 4th, doesn't have anything to do with the bad rushing attack as it was the same for the entire game, and stil within 7 points. And EVERY team that is behind in the 4th quarter faces pass defenses as they know the offense tht is behind is goign to throw the ball.

Orton doesn't play well in the 4th, and doesn't play well when the game is on the line. He played great football the first 4 games, and since has started to come back down to reality.

I don't think people are really saying that we need to trade Orton NOW.. but at the end of the year. Orton isn't our future, and probably won't even be the starter the last 4-5 games of this season..... since we WILL have to start giving Tebow some playing time to get ready to start next season.

Ravage!!!
11-10-2010, 12:48 PM
Did you get a good laugh out of that, Rav? Well, when you can gather yourself
together again, you might (or might not, according to your degree of bias) note
that Denver on defense ranks #27 against the rush an #30 against the pass in
terms of yards given up. That concerns the average yardage they are giving up
per play. That is on the defense.

-----

Pardon Me? you calling me out for what?

Right now, I'm getting a laugh at your bias and defense of Orton. But I've never said anything in regards to Cugal's post on our defense.

BroncoStud
11-10-2010, 12:50 PM
Rushing Game, YPA

Buffalo (Fitzpatrick) - 4.3
Jacksonville (Garrart) - 4.2
Kansas City (Cassel) - 5.0
Denver (Orton) - 2.9 (#32 in league)

The statistics you have been liberally spewing forth are very shallow and
represent skewed conclusions. Unless you take allllllllllll the factors in
consideration, everything you are doing is all wet . . .

-----

How do you figure that?

Stats are stats. Part of the reason Denver has poor rushing numbers IS BECAUSE THEY ARE A SPREAD OFFENSE THAT THROWS THE FOOTBALL.

It isn't difficult to grasp. Keep drinking the Orton Kool-Aid, but this week when he bungles all the 3rd down conversion and sucks with the game on the line, we'll re-assess your misuse of logic. When Orton is traded will you then be a fan of his new team?

topscribe
11-10-2010, 12:54 PM
I'm pretty sure, Garrard and Fitz are contributors to that rushing game.

How? Are they running up and blocking with the line or what?



But Orton has had the same rushing attack behind him when he's throwing teh ball between the twenties. He has the same rushing attack in the fourth quarter, as he does the first, and can't score in either one. The fact that his passer rating drops to 68 when the opponent is within 7 points in the 4th, doesn't have anything to do with the bad rushing attack as it was the same for the entire game, and stil within 7 points. And EVERY team that is behind in the 4th quarter faces pass defenses as they know the offense tht is behind is goign to throw the ball.How do you figure that? Are you saying that Denver (2.9 YPA) has the same
rushing attack as KC (5.0 YPA)? Your bias is showing, Rav.



Orton doesn't play well in the 4th, and doesn't play well when the game is on the line. He played great football the first 4 games, and since has started to come back down to reality.Oh? Is that why Orton passed for 369 yards against SF and achieved a 96.8 QBR?
Oh yes, you are now going to bring up (again) that fumble, as if that has
anything to do with his passing. And another factor has arisen involving the INT
at the end of the game. It seems the receiver might not have been where he
was supposed to be to catch the pass. So that is still up in the air and should
be resolved before allllllllll of the blame is put onto one single player.

But if 369 yards and a 96.8 QBR is coming "back down to reality," I'll take that
reality anytime.


I don't think people are really saying that we need to trade Orton NOW.. but at the end of the year. Orton isn't our future, and probably won't even be the starter the last 4-5 games of this season..... since we WILL have to start giving Tebow some playing time to get ready to start next season.Not necessarily. The Broncos didn't give Orton $9 million for 2011 to sit him on
the bench. If we have football next season, Orton will be back behind center.
That is all I can interpret from that size of a salary. And Orton's "reality" is only
reinforcing that. In fact, maybe Orton is the future. Unless you are the one who
pulls the strings for the Broncos . . .

-----

Ravage!!!
11-10-2010, 12:55 PM
How do you figure that?

Stats are stats. Part of the reason Denver has poor rushing numbers IS BECAUSE THEY ARE A SPREAD OFFENSE THAT THROWS THE FOOTBALL.

.

This is a good point. Its a back and forth thing. We aren't a good rushing team, so we throw the ball a ton, which of course allows the QB puts up big yardage numbers. Doesn't mean the QB is playing incredible football, it just means that we are doing what the offense does..... throw the ball.

Orton isn't playing bad football. But he's certainly coming back down to the "Orton" we all knew we had.

I personally want to see what we have in Tebow, and make the move to find out. He may be as great as the Tebow fan-club believes.... :whoknows:

topscribe
11-10-2010, 12:59 PM
Did you get a good laugh out of that, Rav? Well, when you can gather yourself
together again, you might (or might not, according to your degree of bias) note
that Denver on defense ranks #27 against the rush an #30 against the pass in
terms of yards given up. That concerns the average yardage they are giving up
per play. That is on the defense.

-----


Pardon Me? you calling me out for what?

Right now, I'm getting a laugh at your bias and defense of Orton. But I've never said anything in regards to Cugal's post on our defense.

Hmmm . . . let's see . . . all I did in that post was to mention defensive figures. I
did not offer an opinion: I presented figures. I guess to you that is bias

And your laughing smiley was in a response to Cugel, so I thought it was
directed at him. Excuse me. I didn't realize you were just laughing uncontrollably . . .

-----

topscribe
11-10-2010, 01:04 PM
How do you figure that?

Stats are stats. Part of the reason Denver has poor rushing numbers IS BECAUSE THEY ARE A SPREAD OFFENSE THAT THROWS THE FOOTBALL.

It isn't difficult to grasp. Keep drinking the Orton Kool-Aid, but this week when he bungles all the 3rd down conversion and sucks with the game on the line, we'll re-assess your misuse of logic. When Orton is traded will you then be a fan of his new team?

Apparently, it is difficult for you to grasp. It is universally known that a team has
to block in order to run. Football 101.

It is also universally known that a running game considerably affects the passing
game. Football 101.

If you are going to throw around statistics, then you need to consider allllllll the
factors if you hope to make them credible to people who have a clue.

And I have been watching you dump on Orton with seemingly nearly every one
of your posts. So I come along and enter one or two of my own, and you call
me out for that? I'm sure others here can see through that one, too . . . :coffee:



This is a good point. Its a back and forth thing. We aren't a good rushing team, so we throw the ball a ton, which of course allows the QB puts up big yardage numbers. Doesn't mean the QB is playing incredible football, it just means that we are doing what the offense does..... throw the ball.


No, that isn't a good point . . .

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Ravage!!!
11-10-2010, 01:20 PM
How? Are they running up and blocking with the line or what? Uhmm.. no. THe QB runs the ball.


How do you figure that? Are you saying that Denver (2.9 YPA) has the same
rushing attack as KC (5.0 YPA)? Your bias is showing, Rav.

PLEASE. Yor Bias is SOOO friggin large, its blocking out the sun. Don't even try to suggest that OTHER's bias is showing. I absolutely have a bias about Orton!! My bias is that I can SEE he's not a QB I want as my permanent starter!! My BIAS is to want the BEST for this franchise, my favorite team, and I'm BIASED in believing in my heart that Orton is absolutely NOT IT!

But your a-holish is showing. NO. I'm saying that DENVER's rushing attack is the same in the first, second, third, and fourth. You want to try and force his passing yardage stats down our throats (note the next paragraph from you) but REFUSE to see that with all those empty passing yards.. NOTHING is being accomplished. Terrible on 3rd down conversions, TERRIBLE in the red zone..TERRIBLE when the game is on the line... TERRIBLE about LOSING GAMES.

Tell me again how biased "I" am. :lol: when you continue to try and put the blame on EVERYONE else. Just for the record, I've NEVER put the entire blame on ORton and have ABSOLUTELY criticized our players AND coaches for the lack of running game. I'm also one that will tell you that stats (your passing yards) do NOT tell the story. He's proving more and more and more that the game can NOT come down onto his shoulders, as he will either fumble or throw INTs when the game is LITERALLY on the line, ball in his hands (shortly it will be in the other teams), and having a last drive to get it done. (I know I know.. you are now going to tell me that the INT wasn't his fault either... seems nothing is).



Oh? Is that why Orton passed for 369 yards against SF and achieved a 96.8 QBR? Oh yes, you are now going to bring up (again) that fumble, as if that has anything to do with his passing. And another factor has arisen involving the INT at the end of the game. It seems the receiver might not have been where he was supposed to be to catch the pass. So that is still up in the air and should be resolved before allllllllll of the blame is put onto one single player.

But if 369 yards and a 96.8 QBR is coming "back down to reality," I'll take that
reality anytime.
:laugh: Here.. I'll let you read Jhns quote to answer this. I think you have become nothing but a stat reader and not watching the games... and not looking at the BIG stat.. the LOSING column.
That is a list by yards, not passer rating. He is 8th in passer rating or 6th if you take out guys that haven't played all year. He is also 14th in completion percentage and in a four way tie at 11th in TDs. He has also only completed %58 of passes in our 6 losses. He has his worst ratings in the first and fourth quarters. He has a 68 QB rating when this team is within 7 in the fourth quarter. He only completes %40 of his passes in the red zone.




Not necessarily. The Broncos didn't give Orton $9 million for 2011 to sit him on
the bench. If we have football next season, Orton will be back behind center.
That is all I can interpret from that size of a salary. And Orton's "reality" is only
reinforcing that. In fact, maybe Orton is the future. Unless you are the one who
pulls the strings for the Broncos . . .

-----
Seems the Broncos gave Simms a lot of money. Seems the Broncos gave a long snapper a lot of money. Seems the Broncos spent a lot to get Quinn. Seems the Broncos gave a lot to get a CB that isn't here. Seems the Broncos used a LOT of picks for a QB that is just sitting the bench that is SUPPOSED to be the future of this team.

Seems the Broncos don't have a problem spending Money/picks for players that they will get rid of/trade away.

Sounds to me like you just don't want to accept reality. Orton is NOT the future of this team. He's a temporary fix for any franchise. Its not hard to see that Orton is a good place-holder that will hold the spot until your team can find a leader and franchise QB. Orton isn't it. He's just another Fitzpatrick or Garrard. Decent for now, but not something you want to be the face of the franchise. We have the face of the franchise sitting on the bench, AND a coach that will absolutely be tied to that QB. Orton will be traded away, and his salary will go with it.

topscribe
11-10-2010, 01:24 PM
@Ravage

"A-holish"? "Trying to put the blame on everyone else"?

Ravage, sometimes discussing anything with you seems like slopping around on the floor of a pig sty.

You're just not worth the keystrokes . . . :wave:

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Ravage!!!
11-10-2010, 01:26 PM
@topscribe
:wave:

BroncoStud
11-10-2010, 01:53 PM
Apparently, it is difficult for you to grasp. It is universally known that a team has
to block in order to run. Football 101.

It is also universally known that a running game considerably affects the passing
game. Football 101.

If you are going to throw around statistics, then you need to consider allllllll the
factors if you hope to make them credible to people who have a clue.

And I have been watching you dump on Orton with seemingly nearly every one
of your posts. So I come along and enter one or two of my own, and you call
me out for that? I'm sure others here can see through that one, too . . . :coffee:




No, that isn't a good point . . .

-----

You have an un-natural and 100% biased defense of Orton.

You use stats to support him but when someone posts stats that don't support him you claim they are not credible.

By the way, run blocking and pass blocking are not the same. Teams can build for pass protection or run blocking. Do you think the 1998 Denver Broncos offensive line could line up and run the spread offense and have a QB pass 40 times a game? Most likely not, they were designed for zone-blocking and a 1-cut running attack.

Your opinions on Orton are clearly presented out of a strong bias. You claim to know everything about the guy which means you either REALLY like him or spent a great deal of time researching his past for the heck of it - I think the first is the most likely.

I want what is best for my beloved Broncos. Orton can't take them to the next level because he lacks the talent to do so. His numbers are inflated because Denver barely runs the football. Orton-led offenses struggle to convert and keep drives going (Chicago and Denver) and he folds like paper in the 4th quarter with the game on the line.

You can follow Orton to whatever team he is traded to and defend him when those fans grow tired of his lack of top skills and clutch play while I will patiently wait to see if Tim Tebow is the guy or not for the Broncos.

Either way, your obsession with Orton is something you might want to have checked out, it doesn't seem healthy.

topscribe
11-10-2010, 02:04 PM
You have an un-natural and 100% biased defense of Orton.

You use stats to support him but when someone posts stats that don't support him you claim they are not credible.

By the way, run blocking and pass blocking are not the same. Teams can build for pass protection or run blocking. Do you think the 1998 Denver Broncos offensive line could line up and run the spread offense and have a QB pass 40 times a game? Most likely not, they were designed for zone-blocking and a 1-cut running attack.

Your opinions on Orton are clearly presented out of a strong bias. You claim to know everything about the guy which means you either REALLY like him or spent a great deal of time researching his past for the heck of it - I think the first is the most likely.

I want what is best for my beloved Broncos. Orton can't take them to the next level because he lacks the talent to do so. His numbers are inflated because Denver barely runs the football. Orton-led offenses struggle to convert and keep drives going (Chicago and Denver) and he folds like paper in the 4th quarter with the game on the line.

You can follow Orton to whatever team he is traded to and defend him when those fans grow tired of his lack of top skills and clutch play while I will patiently wait to see if Tim Tebow is the guy or not for the Broncos.

Either way, your obsession with Orton is something you might want to have checked out, it doesn't seem healthy.

Son, don't treat me like a fair-weather fan. I saw the first game the Broncos
ever played on 9 Sept 1960. I stuck with them through fourteen (that's 14)
years of losing football. I was a snot-nosed paper boy in junior high school
when they started out, and by the time they had a winning season in 1973, I
had been in and out of college and was a father of four and owned a business.

Where were you during that time?

As for you, you have seemed incessant in your bashing of Orton, and your use
of stats has been twisted and skewed. If you have a man-crush on Tebow, that
is fine with me, but don't attack me for bringing up some facts and figures of my
own. I do not deserve to be attacked for that.

And everybody here, who has been around for a while, knows how deeply I
researched Orton. I probably know more about him that most everyone else
here put together, except for Ursamajor and any other knowledgeable Bears
fan. In fact, my bias leaned against Orton when he first came here. At first, I did
not like the idea of his being the Broncos' QB. It was only after all that research
that I developed a positive opinion of him. And he has since justified that
opinion with his play.

So my suggestion to you is to refrain from your opinion of me and to discuss the
issue at hand. And if I happen to expose your errant use of statistics, stand up
and listen. Don't go on attack, as if I don't know what I'm talking about. Having
10 postgraduate credit hours of statistics behind me, I do know what I'm
talking about . . .

-----

arapaho2
11-10-2010, 02:11 PM
in a nut shell

ortons weakness have been well documented...they have also been excused to no end

he's getting yards sure...but in the end its no differant than what multitudes of mcd apologist comdemmed cutler for...bunch of yards...little scoreing...so his yards are pointless...pun intended

our offense is pathetic and getting worse by the week as teams quit biteing on the playaction....we have score 7 points in 8 1st qrters so far

that is not a recipe for success...ever

we have seen mcd shuffle the roster..the starters...or whatever he can to seem like he knows how to correct it...he doesnt...it reeks of desparation

our defense sucks at slowick levels

our run game is probably the worst in the broncos history...as it is in the league today

orton can get yards...but under pressure...wilts

we still have 2 games agaiunst the chiefs...bolts...and 1 in oak

we have little shot of beating the bolts with the way thier defe3nse is playing as well as what rivers is doing...

all in all we would be extermely lucky the way the team is ...to win 3 more games more this season...in the so called easy part of the schedule

so all in all...there is no point in not seeing waht tebow has to offer at some point..i say if we lose to the chiefs and bolts in the next two games..there is no reason not to see what we have..a glimmer of franchise qb play? or a wasted pick with tebow

after all we need to see him..if mcd crumbles and is fired then we know if the next coach needs to use our high pick on a qb...or keep orton as a stopgap further...even if josh stays we need to know if we have something to build on

its time

topscribe
11-10-2010, 02:15 PM
in a nut shell

ortons weakness have been well documented...they have also been excused to no end

he's getting yards sure...but in the end its no differant than what multitudes of mcd apologist comdemmed cutler for...bunch of yards...little scoreing...so his yards are pointless...pun intended

our offense is pathetic and getting worse by the week as teams quit biteing on the playaction....we have score 7 points in 8 1st qrters so far

that is not a recipe for success...ever

we have seen mcd shuffle the roster..the starters...or whatever he can to seem like he knows how to correct it...he doesnt...it reeks of desparation

our defense sucks at slowick levels

our run game is probably the worst in the broncos history...as it is in the league today

orton can get yards...but under pressure...wilts

we still have 2 games agaiunst the chiefs...bolts...and 1 in oak

we have little shot of beating the bolts with the way thier defe3nse is playing as well as what rivers is doing...

all in all we would be extermely lucky the way the team is ...to win 3 more games more this season...in the so called easy part of the schedule

so all in all...there is no point in not seeing waht tebow has to offer at some point..i say if we lose to the chiefs and bolts in the next two games..there is no reason not to see what we have..a glimmer of franchise qb play? or a wasted pick with tebow

after all we need to see him..if mcd crumbles and is fired then we know if the next coach needs to use our high pick on a qb...or keep orton as a stopgap further...even if josh stays we need to know if we have something to build on

its time

You know I disagree with you, Rap. I usually do. :laugh:

I just wanted to point out how you usually stick to the subject in your debates.

Which makes you a poster to emulate. :salute:

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BroncoStud
11-10-2010, 02:29 PM
Son, don't treat me like a fair-weather fan. I saw the first game the Broncos
ever played on 9 Sept 1960. I stuck with them through fourteen (that's 14)
years of losing football. I was a snot-nosed paper boy in junior high school
when they started out, and by the time they had a winning season in 1973, I
had been in and out of college and was a father of four and owned a business.

Where were you during that time?

As for you, you have seemed incessant in your bashing of Orton, and your use
of stats has been twisted and skewed. If you have a man-crush on Tebow, that
is fine with me, but don't attack me for bringing up some facts and figures of my
own. I do not deserve to be attacked for that.

And everybody here, who has been around for a while, knows how deeply I
researched Orton. I probably know more about him that most everyone else
here put together, except for Ursamajor and any other knowledgeable Bears
fan. In fact, my bias leaned against Orton when he first came here. At first, I did
not like the idea of his being the Broncos' QB. It was only after all that research
that I developed a positive opinion of him. And he has since justified that
opinion with his play.

So my suggestion to you is to refrain from your opinion of me and to discuss the
issue at hand. And if I happen to expose your errant use of statistics, stand up
and listen. Don't go on attack, as if I don't know what I'm talking about. Having
10 postgraduate credit hours of statistics behind me, I do know what I'm
talking about . . .

-----

Doesn't work like that kiddo...

You claim my stats and my posts aren't credible when yours are so blatantly biased it's tragic comedy.

Keep on drinking the kool-aid and I will keep on watching the Broncos struggle with Orton at the helm, just like the Bears did.

I could care less how many "post graduate hours of statistics" you have behind you. I went to college, I took stats, I took trig, they have nothing to do with football.

I don't have a "man-crush" on Tebow. It could be any 1st round QB we drafted, had it been Bradford, I would want to see what he can do as well. It's more about what Orton ISN'T doing and really can't do.

Same non-sense the Bears fans went through. Orton isn't good enough to be great and he isn't bad enough to be bad. He's just there. The Bears were estatic to trade him to Denver for a reason, and that reason isn't because of his talent.

:confused:

claymore
11-10-2010, 08:47 PM
Fitpatrick - 13 TDS, 7 INTS, 227 ATTEMPTS
Garrard - 13 TDS, 7 INTs, 149 ATTEMPTS
Cassel - 12 TDS, 4 INTS, 214 ATTEMPTS
Orton - 12 TDS, 5 INTS, 316 ATTEMPTS

:harf:

Lancane
11-10-2010, 10:35 PM
I've known Top, for years now. He's a good fan, friend and poster. I really wish people could understand that Top is old school. He has a belief in the Broncos that in itself is more akin to 'Mile High Magic', his faith while it may waver at times is always open and optimistic...trust me, I know.

Ask any poster who knows us and has known us for a long time about our Plummer, Griese, Cutler and Brister debates, some have been down right nasty. We're the same way when it comes to Orton...we could literally argue every aspect till we were blue in the face, and that because we know we're bias, each one of us. Hell, we all are...we all have a bias streak, because we all love this team to the point that were morons on a board trying to out duel one another...but that's the point, we're trying to express our views and let's be honest, we get irritated when others don't get it and they're the same way.

And we have to be nice...remember, Top walked beside Moses and we're suppose to be nice to our elders!...Sorry, had to lighten it up a little bit, even at your expense old friend....lol.

In regards to Orton, he's what I've always said he was...a system quarterback in the right system, no more and no less. All the stats in either direction will not prove me wrong...because I'm right and that's that!

:lol:

topscribe
11-10-2010, 11:14 PM
I've known Top, for years now. He's a good fan, friend and poster. I really wish people could understand that Top is old school. He has a belief in the Broncos that in itself is more akin to 'Mile High Magic', his faith while it may waver at times is always open and optimistic...trust me, I know.

Ask any poster who knows us and has known us for a long time about our Plummer, Griese, Cutler and Brister debates, some have been down right nasty. We're the same way when it comes to Orton...we could literally argue every aspect till we were blue in the face, and that because we know we're bias, each one of us. Hell, we all are...we all have a bias streak, because we all love this team to the point that were morons on a board trying to out duel one another...but that's the point, we're trying to express our views and let's be honest, we get irritated when others don't get it and they're the same way.

And we have to be nice...remember, Top walked beside Moses and we're suppose to be nice to our elders!...Sorry, had to lighten it up a little bit, even at your expense old friend....lol.

In regards to Orton, he's what I've always said he was...a system quarterback in the right system, no more and no less. All the stats in either direction will not prove me wrong...because I'm right and that's that!

:lol:

Eat my shorts, Cane . . .

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Lancane
11-10-2010, 11:26 PM
Eat my shorts, Cane . . .

-----

:twitch:

I thought you wore togas? (Kidding)

Hahahaha...:lol:

:peep:

topscribe
11-10-2010, 11:52 PM
:twitch:

I thought you wore togas? (Kidding)

Hahahaha...:lol:

:peep:

Bet you don't know what we wear under them . . . :D

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