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View Full Version : The case for patience with Knowshon



ChampWJ
11-05-2010, 12:44 AM
Reading thread after thread and from what I hear on the radio, It's unbelievable how much hate there is for Knowshon Moreno. Seems like all I ever hear is some type of short-sighted criticism or the bust label. The tendency is to expect immediate greatness from first rounders but his critics are conveniently overlooking numerous factors working against his development as a player. This is no longer Mike Shanahan's plug in a 1000 yd back scheme.

Face the facts. He has never been 100% since he's been in Denver, which is a fair criticism. McD's offense doesn't put a focus on running the ball, the offensive line has been in shambles, and playcalling has been extremely predictable when they actually do run (how many times are multiple defenders meeting the ball-carrier at the quarterback?). Also, consider the effect on the run game of trailing early and often in most games.

That being said, he still has a much higher ypc avg than his teammates, he is an excellent blocker for this stage of his career, he is very underrated as a receiver out of the backfield, and he plays hard every play regardless of what the score is. He also does a great job of making something out of busted plays. In other words, a lot of his contributions cannot be measured on the stat sheet.

I am proud of what he has accomplished thus far in his career considering everything working against him and wish people would be a bit more objective in their criticisms of him instead of just writing him off not even two years in. He has the talent and drive to get through these early struggles and if you don't think that can happen just look at what Darren McFadden has been able to do recently despite all his early struggles with injuries, lack of blocking, and poor scheme. The career stats for Moreno and McFadden are not all that different despite McFadden having played in 10 more games and Moreno even has him beat in scoring.

I think most fans will change their stance on Knowshon once they finally see him play at full strength and as the team improves around him.

Have a good day! Go Broncos!:salute:

Lancane
11-05-2010, 12:49 AM
Knowshon is a talented young man, but he does not fit the new system well. He is better running behind a zone blocking scheme rather then the man-to-man scheme we have switched to and the numbers reflect that. The only way I see him having success here is if Denver goes out and drafts a big, powerful tailback that can break through defenders for hard yards and then switch up with Moreno.

PAINTERDAVE
11-05-2010, 01:05 AM
He can't seem to stay healthy.
I like him... I remember bieng so excited when we got the pick...
not just a first rounder...
but the first back taken...
the big stud of the draft.

Then he held out. Then he fumbled and made rookie mistakes.
Then our season went to heck.

Then he got injured in camp this year.
Then he re-injured his hammy.

Now... got no confidence he'll ever be "great".

In hindsight ... everyone who bitched was right...
we should have taken Arakpo.

Cant change the past... but he just dont seem like the future, either.

Hope he does good next week against KC.....

Canmore
11-05-2010, 01:13 AM
He can't seem to stay healthy.
I like him... I remember bieng so excited when we got the pick...
not just a first rounder...
but the first back taken...
the big stud of the draft.

Then he held out. Then he fumbled and made rookie mistakes.
Then our season went to heck.

Then he got injured in camp this year.
Then he re-injured his hammy.

Now... got no confidence he'll ever be "great".

In hindsight ... everyone who bitched was right...
we should have taken Arakpo.

Cant change the past... but he just dont seem like the future, either.

Hope he does good next week against KC.....

I felt the same way. The results have been dissappointing to say the least. But like you said, there is still hope.

Northman
11-05-2010, 01:21 AM
The tendency is to expect immediate greatness from first rounders but his critics are conveniently overlooking numerous factors working against his development as a player. This is no longer Mike Shanahan's plug in a 1000 yd back scheme.

Technically, a great RB who can make plays wont be behind the ZBS. Although i agree its early yet and the final verdict isnt in, for where Knowshon was taken its not really asking much for him to actually make plays on his own. Especially considering other RB's taken after him are doing more.


Face the facts. He has never been 100% since he's been in Denver, which is a fair criticism.Indeed it is fair criticism because we've had a history in recent years of having a stable of unhealthy backs and really need to focus on finding the bruisers who wont spend as much time on IR as they do on the field.


McD's offense doesn't put a focus on running the ball, the offensive line has been in shambles, and playcalling has been extremely predictable when they actually do run (how many times are multiple defenders meeting the ball-carrier at the quarterback?).I agree with most of this except for the first sentence. Mcd is running the same thing they are in NE and they run the ball a pretty good amount.


Also, consider the effect on the run game of trailing early and often in most games.Cant argue this, we fall behind way too often and never really set a tone with the run game like we should. Way too one dimensional.


That being said, he still has a much higher ypc avg than his teammates, he is an excellent blocker for this stage of his career, he is very underrated as a receiver out of the backfield, and he plays hard every play regardless of what the score is.Indeed he is better than any other back we have.


He also does a great job of making something out of busted plays.I definitely dont agree with this. I have yet to see him make something out of nothing like i saw him do at Georgia. To me, this is one area where he has failed to make an impact.


I am proud of what he has accomplished thus far in his career considering everything working against him and wish people would be a bit more objective in their criticisms of him instead of just writing him off not even two years in. He has the talent and drive to get through these early struggles and if you don't think that can happen just look at what Darren McFadden has been able to do recently despite all his early struggles with injuries, lack of blocking, and poor scheme. The career stats for Moreno and McFadden are not all that different despite McFadden having played in 10 more games and Moreno even has him beat in scoring.

I think most fans will change their stance on Knowshon once they finally see him play at full strength and as the team improves around him.

Have a good day! Go Broncos!:salute:Your a Georgia fan so its expected that you would defend him at every turn. In the long run i would like to see more objectivity from you regarding him because although his story isnt done, he hasnt been perfect and definitely needs to step up his game and take it upon himself to make something happen out there. The team needs him to step up and be the player he was meant to be. No line is ever perfect even when TD was playing. Sometimes the back just like a receiver or QB needs to take it upon himself to make something happen. Thats what great players do.

CHARLIEADAMSFAN
11-05-2010, 01:27 AM
For some reason at the end of last season I saw something in him... couldn't tell you what but I still have some faith in him. Let's not get ahead of ourselves its only his second year let's have a little faith

Bosco
11-05-2010, 01:34 AM
Right now the only thing Knowshon needs is some better blocking and a healthy preseason.

Lancane
11-05-2010, 01:40 AM
Right now the only thing Knowshon needs is some better blocking and a healthy preseason.

Actually Bosco, the line needs to improve, but if you watch carefully our line is winning the battle upfront and opening holes, but unlike the zone blocking scheme the man-to-man opens only one hole, where as zone blocking tends to move to show multiple gaps. The problem is the gaps do not stay open for long and defenders either penetrate it too quickly or get to the gap leaving Moreno to actually try and power past them, and he can...though he's not a power back and usually gets three to five yards at most. Man-to-man is a nightmare for finesse, speedy tailbacks...what we need is a bruiser to switch up with Moreno and can help show multiple looks and add some confusion with certain stints.

ChampWJ
11-05-2010, 02:06 AM
Your a Georgia fan so its expected that you would defend him at every turn. In the long run i would like to see more objectivity from you regarding him because although his story isnt done, he hasnt been perfect and definitely needs to step up his game and take it upon himself to make something happen out there.

Fair enough and point taken. Let me then say that from the start no one has had higher expectations of Knowshon because, yes, I am a Georgia fan and I saw what he contributed there and meant to that team. It is fair to say that has caused me to have a higher degree of patience with his development. That concept is not foreign to any fan considering a player they are attached to, and specifically this board with the Hillis backers, for example.

Also, I didn't say Knowshon has been perfect and believe me I am disappointed so far and would love nothing more to see him step up his game, especially if it means the team starts winning. I believe he is vastly important to this team turning things around and that's really all I want, not to say "I told you so" about Knowshon but to watch the Broncos win games.

Despite occasional flashes, I admit he has not been the same player I saw at Georgia. I think most of it has to do with his health, and we all hate to see players careers derailed by injuries. However, I see numerous other negatives working against his development. That said, I don't think the results at this point in his career indicate he can't play in the pros or is a bust. His career stats are not as bad as many would have us believe and compare favorably to many players who went on to excellent careers. Let's give it time and hope his health and the coaching/team around him starts to help him develop instead of hinder it.

Canmore
11-05-2010, 02:19 AM
...His career stats are not as bad as many would have us believe and compare favorably to many players who went on to excellent careers. Let's give it time and hope his health and the coaching/team around him starts to help him develop instead of hinder it.

I would love to see a healthy Moreno. I really feel the potential is there. We spent the 12th pick in the draft on him, but so far the results have been less than stellar.

ChampWJ
11-05-2010, 02:31 AM
The results have been dissappointing to say the least.

Click Here (http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/9276/career) to see his career stats.

It would be fair to make that statement about plenty of players (Jarvis Moss, etc.) but I don't think it's a fair conclusion about a player with 13 TD's in his first 21 NFL games despite playing hurt. And he has less carries in 21 games than many players get in one season, which says a lot about the scheme and supporting cast. Sure we'd like more big plays or a higher ypc avg but all things being equal I don't know another back could come in here and do much better.

Bosco
11-05-2010, 02:32 AM
Actually Bosco, the line needs to improve, but if you watch carefully our line is winning the battle upfront and opening holes I gotta disagree with that. Our offensive line, including Clady, has been real hit or miss so far this year. I can't recall going back and watching a single game and saying "our offensive line played well there".

I do think it will get better, but right now it's pretty bad.

Canmore
11-05-2010, 02:55 AM
Click Here (http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/9276/career) to see his career stats.

It would be fair to make that statement about plenty of players (Jarvis Moss, etc.) but I don't think it's a fair conclusion about a player with 13 TD's in his first 21 NFL games despite playing hurt. And he has less carries in 21 games than many players get in one season, which says a lot about the scheme and supporting cast. Sure we'd like more big plays or a higher ypc avg but all things being equal I don't know another back could come in here and do much better.

When you click here what jumps out at you is a carear 3.7 ypc avg and a 3.3 ypc avg this year. In Denver we are used to seeing a ypc avg of close to 5.0. Moreno has been a huge dissapointment.

Lancane
11-05-2010, 03:21 AM
I gotta disagree with that. Our offensive line, including Clady, has been real hit or miss so far this year. I can't recall going back and watching a single game and saying "our offensive line played well there".

I do think it will get better, but right now it's pretty bad.

No, you misunderstood, we're winning the battle upfront but can not contain it, meaning they get off the ball well and open up a gap, but can not maintain it for shit. Simply put, they have a good first gear, but lose control after that. Defenders penetrate the gap too quickly causing the back to fight for short yardage or as we've seen...completely negating our running game. The zone is different because the line pulls and usually opening up multiple gaps, man-to-man does not do that, at most they open one or two lanes but try to make an impenetrable wall of protection...that's why the zone uses lighter, more athletic lineman compared to behemoth monsters. Don't forget Clady heralded from a zone system and continued that here, he's new to the man-to-man scheme himself and we've seen him have overall trouble with it.

Overall, we need to learn to maintain the gaps and stay stoic against letting defenders in the backfield.

ChampWJ
11-05-2010, 03:33 AM
In Denver we are used to seeing a ypc avg of close to 5.0. Moreno has been a huge dissapointment.

You just made my point for me. People have labeled Moreno a disappointment because expectations are based off things we are "used to." Those expectations are unrealistic because we have a different blocking style and different priorities on the run game in general with McDaniels. In NE from 2006-2008 his teams never featured a rusher with more than 835 yards, but we are "used to" 1000-1500 yard rushers here.

Considering Moreno's hamstrings, the stats of the other running backs, and the horrid blocking, I'm not too inclined to call 3.3 ypc a huge disappointment. Sure, we'd all like more, but he'd be getting criticism if he were healthy and it were 4.3 ypc, because of what we are "used to".

Canmore
11-05-2010, 03:46 AM
You just made my point for me. People have labeled Moreno a disappointment because expectations are based off things we are "used to." Those expectations are unrealistic because we have a different blocking style and different priorities on the run game in general with McDaniels. In NE from 2006-2008 his teams never featured a rusher with more than 835 yards, but we are "used to" 1000-1500 yard rushers here.

Considering Moreno's hamstrings, the stats of the other running backs, and the horrid blocking, I'm not too inclined to call 3.3 ypc a huge disappointment. Sure, we'd all like more, but he'd be getting criticism if he were healthy and it were 4.3 ypc, because of what we are "used to".

Well I'm glad to make your day, but 3.3 ypc IS a huge dissapointment. I would gladly take 4.3 but we are not getting anything close to that.

SOCALORADO.
11-05-2010, 09:46 AM
Heres what Knowshow needs.

http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/000/210/883/tcu_player_card_design_61_display_image.jpg?127228 9827

And Knowshow needs this guy to split carries with.
http://bloximages.chicago2.vip.townnews.com/pantagraph.com/content/tncms/assets/editorial/d/12/527/d1252784-c372-11df-8946-001cc4c03286-revisions/4c953af7e639f.image.jpg

Slick
11-05-2010, 09:57 AM
Just because I think he sucks doesn't mean I hate him. I think all of us fans want him to succeed. He gives it 100%. Personally, I think his biggest weakness is his vision. The few times he does gets a lane, he just runs up the backs of his guys.

arapaho2
11-05-2010, 11:01 AM
Click Here (http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/9276/career) to see his career stats.

It would be fair to make that statement about plenty of players (Jarvis Moss, etc.) but I don't think it's a fair conclusion about a player with 13 TD's in his first 21 NFL games despite playing hurt. And he has less carries in 21 games than many players get in one season, which says a lot about the scheme and supporting cast. Sure we'd like more big plays or a higher ypc avg but all things being equal I don't know another back could come in here and do much better.

if the dude could reel off 5-6 yard chunks continuasly...he would get more carrys...despite mcd pas first offense...but he cant...and when your getting 1-2 yards per rush....you aint moving the chains....josh then gives up on establishing the run

Ravage!!!
11-05-2010, 11:05 AM
how many 100 yrd rushing games does he have? Does he have a single 100yrd rushing game yet? I mean, every squirrel finds ONE nut.... somewhere. I'm with slick. Just because I don't think he's an every down back, doesn't mean I hate the guy. Ust means I think he's Slooooooowww.

Northman
11-05-2010, 11:09 AM
if the dude could reel off 5-6 yard chunks continuasly...he would get more carrys...despite mcd pas first offense...but he cant...and when your getting 1-2 yards per rush....you aint moving the chains....josh then gives up on establishing the run

You do make some great points.

Traditionally we know that running the ball sets up the pass but in cases like Indy the pass helps set up the run. I think the other night a backup for them (Mike Hart) went over a 100yds rushing against Houston. Initially when we played them i thought they had all their starting Oline in there but Carol pointed out that they had a couple of young guys in there yet their run game has improved. It just isnt all on the line and with the passing game being productive for us i would expect our run game to flourish.

Broncolingus
11-05-2010, 11:12 AM
Knowshon is a talented young man, but he does not fit the new system well. He is better running behind a zone blocking scheme rather then the man-to-man scheme we have switched to and the numbers reflect that. The only way I see him having success here is if Denver goes out and drafts a big, powerful tailback that can break through defenders for hard yards and then switch up with Moreno.

GP, Lan...

I too don’t think Moreno is a good fit for McDs style offense, although WJ has some valid points...

Bottom line, his health is really something that needs to be fixed (long term) before anything else can be blamed anyway…

McD's offense (which I personally think is the 'best' type of offense to win playoff games in the NFL now), needs exactly what Lan states -- a larger, powerful TB that pounds the ball and breaks tackles…which isn’t really Moreno’s MO.

I wonder if the Redskins could use a good TB that fits well in the zone blocking style offense?

…and oh, Maroney isn’t the answer either, folks – but we already knew that didn’t we?

:D

Ravage!!!
11-05-2010, 11:24 AM
McD's offense (which I personally think is the 'best' type of offense to win playoff games in the NFL now), needs exactly what Lan states -- a larger, powerful TB that pounds the ball and breaks tackles…which isn’t really Moreno’s MO.


:D

Uhmmm.... we had that, and he was traded away because he "didn't fit the system."

Broncolingus
11-05-2010, 11:28 AM
Uhmmm.... we had that, and he was traded away because he "didn't fit the system."

I'm not arguing that part either, brother...

I (too) always thought there was a place for Hillis on that offense...

arapaho2
11-05-2010, 11:53 AM
You do make some great points.

Traditionally we know that running the ball sets up the pass but in cases like Indy the pass helps set up the run. I think the other night a backup for them (Mike Hart) went over a 100yds rushing against Houston. Initially when we played them i thought they had all their starting Oline in there but Carol pointed out that they had a couple of young guys in there yet their run game has improved. It just isnt all on the line and with the passing game being productive for us i would expect our run game to flourish.

thats right useing the run to set up the pass also works in reverse...if a team like the current broncos are passing the ball at will...the defense must shift to a mare pass oriented defense...that should open up the run game

it doesnt for us

it brings up a curious thought...are defenses running single coverage keeping a eye on keeping us one demensional, knowing our wrs although getting yards...are not getting Y.A.C and so there is no reason to shift to a passing defense...it does seem like the vast majority of llyods catchas are acrobatic jumps or diving grabs with no yac...where gaffneys are sideline outs where he runs himself out of bounds

at some point you need a guy like marshall who commands double and sometimes triple coverage to open up the run game

BroncoJoe
11-05-2010, 11:56 AM
Negative nellies. Everytime I see Knowshon get the ball, I see nothing but desire to move forward. High stepping, leaping over defenders, etc. He doesn't run out of bounds and looks for someone to hit.

Playcalling? O-Line blocking? Maybe. Knowshon is not the problem with our running attack.

arapaho2
11-05-2010, 12:03 PM
Negative nellies. Everytime I see Knowshon get the ball, I see nothing but desire to move forward. High stepping, leaping over defenders, etc. He doesn't run out of bounds and looks for someone to hit.

Playcalling? O-Line blocking? Maybe. Knowshon is not the problem with our running attack.


to bad thats ussually the back of a bronco lineman

Ravage!!!
11-05-2010, 12:13 PM
Negative nellies. Everytime I see Knowshon get the ball, I see nothing but desire to move forward. High stepping, leaping over defenders, etc. He doesn't run out of bounds and looks for someone to hit.

Playcalling? O-Line blocking? Maybe. Knowshon is not the problem with our running attack.

Desire and effort doesn't, necessarily, make you effective. Knowshon is slow. He hasn't had a SINGLE 100 yrd rushing game, and when has he EVER found an opening and taken one to the house for over 20 yrds (I really don't remember one if there was).

He may not be THE problem, but h absolutely is NOT the solution. Offensive lineman need help from the RB as well. They can't do it ALL. Ol can NOT (regularly, obviously on rare occasions) create college size holes in the NFL, they create creases.

Rick
11-05-2010, 12:13 PM
It is not just Moreno though. I think once we get better on the line we will see improvements.

He is the best we have right now, and the running game has sucked all through this year and including preseason.

I still don't know why the **** the line scheme had to change. Again as I said in another post, get bigger fine but leave the line scheme alone. Clady, Kuper and Harris are all big and did great in the zone. They should have just added 2 big lineman that could play zone to replace Casey and Ben.

I guess it all needs to just gel now which may not happen till the end of the year, or till next year.

As far as a complimentry bruiser back I think we have one, hes just sitting on IR right now. I saw some things from White in the preseason and he powered in for TDs.

Rick
11-05-2010, 12:19 PM
Look at Maroney.

He is not a great RB by any means but last year he averaged 3.9 and had 9 TDs. This year 2.1 and no TDs.

Has he regressed from being a little better than average back to being the skill level of the towell boy in one season?

What is the constant?

rcsodak
11-05-2010, 12:20 PM
Negative nellies. Everytime I see Knowshon get the ball, I see nothing but desire to move forward. High stepping, leaping over defenders, etc. He doesn't run out of bounds and looks for someone to hit.

Playcalling? O-Line blocking? Maybe. Knowshon is not the problem with our running attack.
:singit:
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

Northman
11-05-2010, 12:21 PM
to bad thats ussually the back of a bronco lineman

:lol:

arapaho2
11-05-2010, 12:28 PM
Desire and effort doesn't, necessarily, make you effective. Knowshon is slow. He hasn't had a SINGLE 100 yrd rushing game, and when has he EVER found an opening and taken one to the house for over 20 yrds (I really don't remember one if there was).

He may not be THE problem, but h absolutely is NOT the solution. Offensive lineman need help from the RB as well. They can't do it ALL. Ol can NOT (regularly, obviously on rare occasions) create college size holes in the NFL, they create creases.


exactly...and as i been saying all along...he just dont have the speed or burst to shoot thru the hole and get to the second level...there was also a breakdown in preseason by faulk of moreno...which showed his poor vision recognizing the hole or lane

Ravage!!!
11-05-2010, 12:30 PM
He doesn't run out of bounds and looks for someone to hit.




too bad thats ussually the back of a bronco lineman

:lol: I just got that :lol:

arapaho2
11-05-2010, 12:31 PM
Negative nellies. Everytime I see Knowshon get the ball, I see nothing but desire to move forward. High stepping, leaping over defenders, etc. He doesn't run out of bounds and looks for someone to hit.

Playcalling? O-Line blocking? Maybe. Knowshon is not the problem with our running attack.


hey...at least when he does get a yard or two he looks cool doing it:lol::lol:

Ravage!!!
11-05-2010, 12:33 PM
hey...at least when he does get a yard or two he looks cool doing it:lol::lol:

and is excited about it, like in the Oakland game.

broncofaninfla
11-05-2010, 12:33 PM
When I think of Moreno I think of excuses, with him, I've heard them all. I'm simply not impressed with Moreno to date, he doesn't seem any better than undrafted Mike Bell to me at this point. Granted the running scheme and the Oline suck but during those times when the seam is there, he doesn't do much with it. Sure Moreno would do better if the line played better but that is true of ANY back. He wasn't drafted in the any back spot though, he was the first RB drafted. Given that he should be a special back and to date he simply hasn't been. I can't say I cared much for his celebration in the Oakland game either. Some said he was trying to fire the team up, I would rather see him do that with his play than his dance moves in the endzone.

Jake Klug
11-05-2010, 12:40 PM
Moreno is garbage. There have been a lot of great RBs in the past who played behind what one would consider to not be the best offensive line and still produce. Moreno doesnt do squat unless the yardage is gift wrapped for him. And when he gets to the second level, when he's not tripping over the yard line, he becomes juke happy. His center of gravity sucks and so his ability to achieve good pad level has been disappointing. And the fact that he's slow doesnt help either. There are two ways you usually see RBs get long runs and one is by being fast and the other is by not slowing down. Terrell Davis is in the latter category. By being juke happy, Moreno is often losing speed, which allows pursuit to catch up.

Every time I watch Moreno, I get more and more disgusted. I dont agree that Moreno is more talented. Hillis is probably faster, and even more mobile, and he also runs behind his pads better.

SOCALORADO.
11-05-2010, 02:02 PM
Moreno is garbage. There have been a lot of great RBs in the past who played behind what one would consider to not be the best offensive line and still produce. Moreno doesnt do squat unless the yardage is gift wrapped for him. And when he gets to the second level, when he's not tripping over the yard line, he becomes juke happy. His center of gravity sucks and so his ability to achieve good pad level has been disappointing. And the fact that he's slow doesnt help either. There are two ways you usually see RBs get long runs and one is by being fast and the other is by not slowing down. Terrell Davis is in the latter category. By being juke happy, Moreno is often losing speed, which allows pursuit to catch up.

Every time I watch Moreno, I get more and more disgusted. I dont agree that Moreno is more talented. Hillis is probably faster, and even more mobile, and he also runs behind his pads better.


Ive been doin my best to hold off from this realization.
Its just so f'n disappointing.