Broncos' COO Joe Ellis says team brass hears, understands fans' outrage

[Denver Native (Carol)]

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_16523671

From the offices that rank above Broncos coach Josh McDaniels, owner Pat Bowlen and his right-hand man, Joe Ellis, can hear the outrage.

"When people invest not only their money but their emotions in this team like they have for 50 years, they have every right to express their feelings," Ellis said today. "What we do is important. We understand that and we respect that."

Ellis, the team's chief operating officer, agreed to sit down with The Denver Post to address the state of the Broncos during the bye week.

Ellis said Bowlen is in good health, but the team's owner since 1984 has chosen to step back from the spotlight and let Ellis speak for management. Ellis added that Bowlen is confident McDaniels can turn around the Broncos, but he stopped short of guaranteeing the coach would return next season.

Not only are the Broncos 2-6, they lost their most recent home game, 59-14, to their arch-rival, the Oakland Raiders. Most of the fans' displeasure has been aimed at McDaniels, the team's second year coach.

"We've had a culture of winning here under Pat Bowlen for 27 years," Ellis said. "When that started to slide (under Mike Shanahan) there were expectations that when we brought in the new head coach that would change immediately. When that didn't happen as fast as our fans wanted it to — we all wanted it to happen quickly — there was a lot of angst among our fans.

"Then you take into account the start we've had this year, with the type of loss we had with the Oakland game at home, and the fans' emotions and feelings are understandably raw in terms of their anger and disappointment. Pat understands that. Josh understands that."

Ellis said he understands that will will take more than words to get back in the fans' good graces.

"Because of the way that game went, we made our apologies, we told everybody how embarrassed we were through our head coach and players," Ellis said. "But those words right now ring hollow. The only way you can win back the fans' trust is to earn it on the field by coaching better, playing better and performing better and winning."

[Northman]

Ellis added that Bowlen is confident McDaniels can turn around the Broncos, but he stopped short of guaranteeing the coach would return next season.


"We've had a culture of winning here under Pat Bowlen for 27 years," Ellis said. "When that started to slide (under Mike Shanahan) there were expectations that when we brought in the new head coach that would change immediately. When that didn't happen as fast as our fans wanted it to — we all wanted it to happen quickly — there was a lot of angst among our fans.


The only way you can win back the fans' trust is to earn it on the field by coaching better, playing better and performing better and winning.

Good. At least now we can put to rest this myth that its a guarantee that McD will be back for sure. At least Bowlen is keeping a level head about the situation and keeping to his word about improving from Shanny's tenure.

[Buff]

Does anyone remember Joe Ellis giving a midseason interview at any point in the past? Strikes me as kind of odd, makes me wonder A.) if Bowlen's health is slipping (even though they said he's healthy) or B.) if McD is in bigger trouble than some of us thought. Ellis didn't exactly give Josh a ringing vote of confidence...

Seems like a pretty half-assed piece by Klis. Did Ellis only agree to answer two questions? Hard to gauge his general mood when there are only a couple of quotes.

[OrangeHoof]

Good. At least now we can put to rest this myth that its a guarantee that McD will be back for sure.

Where did you read that in his comments? There wasn't anything in his comments that implied McDaniels was on a short leash. It was bureaucrat-speak to say "we're sorry you're pissed off, so are we but we're clueless on how to improve other than to give you platitudes that we're 'working on it' but we aren't ready to say exactly how".

This is similar to when you inform the motel manager that there was giant turd on the sheets when you rolled back the blankets and all they really do is tell you how embarrassed they are but say nothing about how they plan to remedy the situation other than to say "we'll try harder".

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Does anyone remember Joe Ellis giving a midseason interview at any point in the past? Strikes me as kind of odd, makes me wonder A.) if Bowlen's health is slipping (even though they said he's healthy) or B.) if McD is in bigger trouble than some of us thought. Ellis didn't exactly give Josh a ringing vote of confidence...

Seems like a pretty half-assed piece by Klis. Did Ellis only agree to answer two questions? Hard to gauge his general mood when there are only a couple of quotes.

There had been much discussion, by the press, media, etc., on why the Broncos' brass had not addressed the season so far, as Jones did in Dallas, plus fans asking the same thing. I would imagine that is why Ellis did this.

[Lonestar]

How many other questions in Y'alls mind would have been necessary.

Unless they annouced Josh was fired Y'all are not going to be happy anyway.

I did not see anything in the article that has not been said before.

Once again much ado about nothing.

From phX apo
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[Tned-Mobile]

Where did you read that in his comments? There wasn't anything in his comments that implied McDaniels was on a short leash. It was bureaucrat-speak to say "we're sorry you're pissed off, so are we but we're clueless on how to improve other than to give you platitudes that we're 'working on it' but we aren't ready to say exactly how".

This is similar to when you inform the motel manager that there was giant turd on the sheets when you rolled back the blankets and all they really do is tell you how embarrassed they are but say nothing about how they plan to remedy the situation other than to say "we'll try harder".

Klis stated that Ellis stopped short of guaranteeing McDaniels would be back. That indicates, or else is VERY misleading by Klis, that the subject came up and Ellis either wouldn't address it or was non committal.

Having said that, I don't think too much can or should be read into this. I think this is just evidence that the Broncos aren't tone death and realize the fans are very unhappy with the losing ways.

Further, it's probably due to the backlash of the "no comment" coming from the Broncos following the Raiders loss. This was a vote of confidence for McDaniels, but a tepid one. However, that's appropriate. Ellis and Bowlen would be crap businessmen if they decided now, after 8 games, what direction they need to go after the season.

[dogfish]

Does anyone remember Joe Ellis giving a midseason interview at any point in the past? Strikes me as kind of odd, makes me wonder A.) if Bowlen's health is slipping (even though they said he's healthy) or B.) if McD is in bigger trouble than some of us thought. Ellis didn't exactly give Josh a ringing vote of confidence...

Seems like a pretty half-assed piece by Klis. Did Ellis only agree to answer two questions? Hard to gauge his general mood when there are only a couple of quotes.

yep, thanks for nothing joe, mike. . .

[Buff]

There had been much discussion, by the press, on why the Broncos' brass had not addressed the season so far, as Jones did in Dallas, plus fans asking the same thing. I would imagine that is why Ellis did this.

But why Ellis instead of Bowlen? Does Bowlen want to keep a lower profile because he's really upset with the situation and didn't want to make that public? Because he's not healthy? Or is he just handing off some of his day-to-day tasks as he gets older?

Ellis over Bowlen is what strikes me as odd. And why such a brief comment? If the front office finally made itself available to the Denver Post, couldn't they have squeezed more than 2-3 ambiguous quotes out of Ellis?

It seems like they would have been better off saying nothing at all, or giving McDaniels a vote of confidence. I've got more questions now than before I read this article.

[Tned-Mobile]

How many other questions in Y'alls mind would have been necessary.

Unless they annouced Josh was fired Y'all are not going to be happy anyway.

I did not see anything in the article that has not been said before.

Once again much ado about nothing.

From phX apo
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Who the **** is ya'll? Way to lump a whole lot of people into your negative stereotype.

Back to the topic, which wasn't other posters, Josh has to get things turned around, because if he keeps up the .222 winning percentage for the rest of the year, as he has the last 18 games, it's going to put Bowlen and Ellis in a tough position.

[rcsodak]

:coffee: Frankly, not much more CAN be said. They hear your crying. They're sorry. They'll try to do better. End of story.
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[Northman]

Where did you read that in his comments? There wasn't anything in his comments that implied McDaniels was on a short leash. It was bureaucrat-speak to say "we're sorry you're pissed off, so are we but we're clueless on how to improve other than to give you platitudes that we're 'working on it' but we aren't ready to say exactly how".

This is similar to when you inform the motel manager that there was giant turd on the sheets when you rolled back the blankets and all they really do is tell you how embarrassed they are but say nothing about how they plan to remedy the situation other than to say "we'll try harder".

Here you go, i even quoted it the first time.


but he stopped short of guaranteeing the coach would return next season.

If you need me to make it bigger or make it hot pink let me know.

[Lonestar]

Where did you read that in his comments? There wasn't anything in his comments that implied McDaniels was on a short leash. It was bureaucrat-speak to say "we're sorry you're pissed off, so are we but we're clueless on how to improve other than to give you platitudes that we're 'working on it' but we aren't ready to say exactly how".

This is similar to when you inform the motel manager that there was giant turd on the sheets when you rolled back the blankets and all they really do is tell you how embarrassed they are but say nothing about how they plan to remedy the situation other than to say "we'll try harder".

It is what he wanted to hear. Wasn't said nor implied. Probably was not even asked but klis needs to sell advertising therefore is giving his impressions to feed the fire.

We have 8 games
To go. And it is a BYE week they have to print something even if it is crap.

If Joe had given him a vote of confidence the haters on here would be baying at the moon right now.

Much ado about nothing.
PHX
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[Northman]

But why Ellis instead of Bowlen? Does Bowlen want to keep a lower profile because he's really upset with the situation and didn't want to make that public? Because he's not healthy? Or is he just handing off some of his day-to-day tasks as he gets older?

Ellis over Bowlen is what strikes me as odd. And why such a brief comment? If the front office finally made itself available to the Denver Post, couldn't they have squeezed more than 2-3 ambiguous quotes out of Ellis?

It seems like they would have been better off saying nothing at all, or giving McDaniels a vote of confidence. I've got more questions now than before I read this article.

I saw another quote (from klis answering a fan) that Bowlen was not very happy about the end of last year and how this season is going so far. I think Bowlen just doesnt want to fly off the handle and would rather let Ellis handle the PR dept.

[SOCALORADO.]

I saw another quote (from klis answering a fan) that Bowlen was not very happy about the end of last year and how this season is going so far. I think Bowlen just doesnt want to fly off the handle and would rather let Ellis handle the PR dept.

http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2010/0310/otl_gruden_tebowt_576.jpg

[Northman]

http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2010/0310/otl_gruden_tebowt_576.jpg


Your killing me dude. :lol:

[Denver Native (Carol)]

From article:

Ellis, the team's chief operating officer, agreed to sit down with The Denver Post to address the state of the Broncos during the bye week.

Maybe Ellis felt it appropriate to state what he did in regards to the fans, but did not feel it appropriate at this time to address HC/coaches/players, etc.

[Tned-Mobile]

:coffee: Frankly, not much more CAN be said. They hear your crying. They're sorry. They'll try to do better. End of story.
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Agreed. They are not going to tell the fans what their internal strategy/thoughts are, but instead they are simply letting the fans know they aren't happy with the losing, and know that the fans have a lot invested in the Broncos (financially and mentally) and they are going to get things righted as soon as possible.

Personally, I think Ellis did a good job and it was the right (not too much or too little) message.

There, I've agreed with RC once this year, (Broncosforums Fiscal year which starts on August), so I don't have to do it again until next season!!!

[Northman]

and they are going to get things righted as soon as possible.



Yea, which tells me that Orton will finish the season as it would seem since Pat has confidence that McD can turn it around that he is expecting some wins and improvement this season. These last few games will be very interesting to see how things develop.

[SOCALORADO.]

Agreed. They are not going to tell the fans what their internal strategy/thoughts are, but instead they are simply letting the fans know they aren't happy with the losing, and know that the fans have a lot invested in the Broncos (financially and mentally) and they are going to get things righted as soon as possible.

Personally, I think Ellis did a good job and it was the right (not too much or too little) message.

There, I've agreed with RC once this year, (Broncosforums Fiscal year which starts on August), so I don't have to do it again until next season!!!

http://www2.tbo.com/exposure/ar/659/372/2010/03/04/36023_tebow-2.jpg

[Day1BroncoFan]

This doesn't make me feel better.

[Northman]

http://www2.tbo.com/exposure/ar/659/372/2010/03/04/36023_tebow-2.jpg

You think they are playing "hot potato?"

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Another thought - if Ellis got into - well, look at the injuries we have had, etc., do you really think fans would have accepted that? I think, as Tned stated, he said, AT THIS TIME, exactly what needed to be said, and nothing more.

[Northman]

Another thought - if Ellis got into - well, look at the injuries we have had, etc., do you really think fans would have accepted that? I think, as Tned stated, he said, AT THIS TIME, exactly what needed to be said, and nothing more.

Fans probably wouldnt have accepted it, your right. But thats because we saw the injuries in 08' and it still didnt save Shanahan's job then. I think fans just know what was said by Bowlen after the firing of Shanahan and expected far more than what is happening right now.

[Buff]

I saw another quote (from klis answering a fan) that Bowlen was not very happy about the end of last year and how this season is going so far. I think Bowlen just doesnt want to fly off the handle and would rather let Ellis handle the PR dept.

It kind of seems like Bowlen is damning McDaniels with faint praise just by having Ellis give the interview instead of him. Then Ellis didn't say much except that they need to coach and play better.

The fact that he sent Ellis out there to say something as opposed to taking questions personally seems somewhat significant to me. Maybe Bowlen is contemplating a change if the team puts up another 2-6 record down the stretch? Or, maybe Bowlen really is just getting older and trying to delegate tasks and there is nothing more to read into it.

[Northman]

The fact that he sent Ellis out there to say something as opposed to taking questions personally seems somewhat significant to me. Maybe Bowlen is contemplating a change if the team puts up another 2-6 record down the stretch? Or, maybe Bowlen really is just getting older and trying to delegate tasks and there is nothing more to read into it.

Maybe. But he did tell Ellis that he has confidence in McD to turn it around. The other thing is we dont know what Bowlen is saying to McD behind closed doors. I just know that if i were in Bowlen's shoes i would probably do the same thing because any interview with me would be a shitstorm of cursing which doesnt really help the team nor the HC at that point. I think Bowlen is trying his best to let McD do his thing and get the team back on track of winning games. If it doesnt happen, im sure Bowlen will decide what to do from there. And SoCa, if you post another Gruden picture here i swear..... :lol:

[Lonestar]

Here you go, i even quoted it the first time.



If you need me to make it bigger or make it hot pink let me know.

Just maybe because he did not jump up and down and proclaim that he would be back does that mean he was asked and declined to answer. If that was asked then there is meat to the story.

But I'll bet that kils is just selling papers. During a BYE week.

BTW Josh has always been a guy that wants to get better and has brought in competition to make starters better. If anyone understands jobs are not guaranteed it is Josh. You perform or your not there.

Unless he loses out I doubt changes would be made.

Mucho ado about nada. PHX
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[Elevation inc]

no one expected this including the team and josh, and bowlen, and Ellis, and the fans....something needs to change....is it ellis, is it players like graham, and jamal williams, and bannan being a bust, is it injuries, is it youth, is it a coaches ego, por coach selection.......so much out there and not a single one of us really know.....all we can do is be critical, cheer on game days, get pissed when they lose or not, and hope something happens if we keep trending downward....ellis is a stupid clown and i doubt anything he said is of any substance.....Jones didnt need people to breathe down his neck for answer he answered them freely the last few weeks.....

maybe we need a change up top starting with the VP of operations.....

[Northman]

Just maybe because he did not jump up and down and proclaim that he would be back does that mean he was asked and declined to answer. If that was asked then there is meat to the story.

But I'll bet that kils is just selling papers. During a BYE week.

At least thats what you hope. I know it gives me hope that the owner wont stand for losing. So since neither of us knows if it was or wasnt asked ill go with the more positive side of it.


BTW Josh has always been a guy that wants to get better and has brought in competition to make starters better. If anyone understands jobs are not guaranteed it is Josh. You perform or your not there.

No doubt. It also applies to his own position. He needs to look in the mirror because he isnt getting the job done.


Unless he loses out I doubt changes would be made.



I would be willing to bet if he doesnt at least win 7 games he will done. And considering where we are right now thats a tall feat.

[Lonestar]

Who the **** is ya'll? Way to lump a whole lot of people into your negative stereotype.



And this forum has been the paradiem of positivity.

Yeah sure.

If Y'all don't know who they are I'm not defining them

I think tey know who they are. I realize you have been out of the country but this place has been a black hole for a couple of weeks.

PHX
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[Northman]

but this place has been a black hole for a couple of weeks.




There hasnt been much to be happy about.

[Lonestar]

There hasnt been much to be happy about.

As I said a black hole of negativity except from a few of us.


Much ado about nothing till seasons end then I will worry,knash teeth, be concerned.

Till then what possitive can be done.
Fire wink for his failure to stop the run.

That is about it.
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[Ravage!!!]

There hasnt been much to be happy about.

Not true. We have all this improvement and TEAM chemistry to enjoy and look forward too.

[Ravage!!!]

As I said a black hole of negativity except from a few of us.


Much ado about nothing till seasons end then I will worry,knash teeth, be concerned.

Till then what possitive can be done.
Fire wink for his failure to stop the run.

That is about it.
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Wait... didn't you say it was the players and not the coaching? McD didn't fumble or throw the INTs, didn't miss the hole, make the bad snaps, or put too many players on the field.

Did Wink miss tackles and allow runs? Besides, weren't we bragging about stopping the run for every game up UNTIL the Raiders game? :confused:

[rcsodak]

Agreed. They are not going to tell the fans what their internal strategy/thoughts are, but instead they are simply letting the fans know they aren't happy with the losing, and know that the fans have a lot invested in the Broncos (financially and mentally) and they are going to get things righted as soon as possible.

Personally, I think Ellis did a good job and it was the right (not too much or too little) message.

There, I've agreed with RC once this year, (Broncosforums Fiscal year which starts on August), so I don't have to do it again until next season!!!
ROTFLMAO
Actually, T, there's been others......but who's counting. :wink:









T'S AGREED WITH ME AGAIN!! :elefant:
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[SOCALORADO.]

There hasnt been much to be happy about.

Cheer this damn place up, dammit.

http://bumpshack.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/tim-tebow-girlfriend-erin-drewes-pictures.jpg

[rcsodak]

At least thats what you hope. I know it gives me hope that the owner wont stand for losing. So since neither of us knows if it was or wasnt asked ill go with the more positive side of it.



No doubt. It also applies to his own position. He needs to look in the mirror because he isnt getting the job done.



I would be willing to bet if he doesnt at least win 7 games he will done. And considering where we are right now thats a tall feat.
what does ending 7-9 do? How'd that turnout for Cle this year, after their end of season tear? Another mediocre record and subsequent middle of the road draft is what.
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[Northman]

Fire wink for his failure to stop the run.



So, your ok with firing Wink for not stopping the run but not ok with firing McD because we cant score points in the redzone? Not a very consistent arguement on your part.

[SOCALORADO.]

http://www.thecampofthesaints.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/LucyPinderW-300.jpg

[Northman]

what does ending 7-9 do? How'd that turnout for Cle this year, after their end of season tear? Another mediocre record and subsequent middle of the road draft is what.
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I agree, overall the record would be ho-hum. But from the perspective that we are looking at right now it would be much better than where i think we will end up. If we finish 2-14 or 5-11 that is a major setback on our part. The basis is i think Bowlen (as a lot of fans in general) want to see improvement and that means playing better football and winning ballgames. Technically, the possibility of winning out is there but not realistic. But, seeing where we are now if McD can at least finish on a strong run it will bode much better for him compared to finish with only a couple of wins.

[rcsodak]

Wait... didn't you say it was the players and not the coaching? McD didn't fumble or throw the INTs, didn't miss the hole, make the bad snaps, or put too many players on the field.

Did Wink miss tackles and allow runs? Besides, weren't we bragging about stopping the run for every game up UNTIL the Raiders game? :confused:
the run D has sucked since losing ayers/vickerson. I HOPE NOBODY SLIPS ON ANY MCDONALDS WRAPPERS.
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[Northman]

http://www.thecampofthesaints.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/LucyPinderW-300.jpg

Yummmmmm,

Gimme.

[Dzone]

Sounds like typical politician speak- "I know the economy sucks. We know youre pissed. We feel your pain..blah blah blah blah"...Talking without really saying anything.

[dogfish]

It kind of seems like Bowlen is damning McDaniels with faint praise just by having Ellis give the interview instead of him. Then Ellis didn't say much except that they need to coach and play better.

The fact that he sent Ellis out there to say something as opposed to taking questions personally seems somewhat significant to me. Maybe Bowlen is contemplating a change if the team puts up another 2-6 record down the stretch? Or, maybe Bowlen really is just getting older and trying to delegate tasks and there is nothing more to read into it.

maybe bowlen can't remember what he had for breakfast this morning. . .


:noidea:

[Jake Klug]

Does anyone remember Joe Ellis giving a midseason interview at any point in the past? Strikes me as kind of odd, makes me wonder A.) if Bowlen's health is slipping (even though they said he's healthy) or B.) if McD is in bigger trouble than some of us thought. Ellis didn't exactly give Josh a ringing vote of confidence...

Seems like a pretty half-assed piece by Klis. Did Ellis only agree to answer two questions? Hard to gauge his general mood when there are only a couple of quotes.

All I know is that Joe Ellis' office outranks Josh McDaniels' office just like Joe Ellis outranks Josh McDaniels.

Maybe Klis should either stop ranking offices or find a different career.

[Krugan]

Wouldnt it have been nice for him to just come out and say,

"well we really screwed the pouch here"

Just because i think they have really screwed the pouch.

anyway, it was what I expected

[dogfish]

Wouldnt it have been nice for him to just come out and say,

"well we really screwed the pouch here"

Just because i think they have really screwed the pouch.

anyway, it was what I expected

there's only ONE thing i ever want to hear from joe ellis, and that's an announcement that he just resigned his position. . . who knows, maybe we could get somebody in charge of our football operations that actually knows something about football. . .

[Day1BroncoFan]

Maybe Bowlen thinks klis is the problem. :whoknows:

[Lonestar]

So, your ok with firing Wink for not stopping the run but not ok with firing McD because we cant score points in the redzone? Not a very consistent arguement on your part.

We have not scored points in the RZ for a decade. Considering the state of the Oline and RBs not hard the guess why.

As for wink I was just Joshing. But it may take some heat off for the rest of the year. If Y'all have to have blood.
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[Lancane]

I find it kind of ironic that Ellis, a member of the coup d'état trio which includes McDaniels and Xanders, is the one to give an interview, even a half-assed one to the press. Ellis is about as hated as his cohorts. He was the major voice in hiring Josh McDaniels, he also was substantial in the hiring of Brian Xanders but also in his appointment of General Manager over Jim Bateman who had already proven himself as a good evaluator of talent and player personnel. Ellis has played a big part in the downfall of this organization.

I would have rather heard a statement from John (Bowlen) or one of the other members who sit on the Board of Directors, after all...John at least is a partial owner of the franchise and his statement would carry more weight in my honest opinion.

[Day1BroncoFan]

We'all want blood from somewhare.

EDIT:

I forgot. :D

[Northman]

We'all want blood from somewhare.

EDIT:

I forgot. :D

http://www.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/131504/2/istockphoto_131504-blood-from-a-stone.jpg

[nevcraw]

there's only ONE thing i ever want to hear from joe ellis, and that's an announcement that he just resigned his position. . . who knows, maybe we could get somebody in charge of our football operations that actually knows something about football. . .

Amen.. and someone not ever involved in any way with W.

[Lonestar]

but also in his appointment of General Manager over Jim Bateman who had already proven himself as a good evaluator of talent and player personnel. .

And who might those players be just which ones are still on the team. Espeically from the d isde of the LOS. Seems to me he was here in O7. When that draft was a ******* bust.

Also other than the die hard jay lovers how many still feel that jay is/was so hot other than having a cannon for an arm. He is a head case and has been one from day one.

Pro bowl you say most thought rivers should have went.

Just how many of his players are still starters in the NFL and do not face suspension by the league.


Sorry not impressed with his "talent" evals.
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[Lancane]

And who might those players be just which ones are still on the team. Espeically from the d isde of the LOS. Seems to me he was here in O7. When that draft was a ******* bust.

Also other than the die hard jay lovers how many still feel that jay is/was so hot other than having a cannon for an arm. He is a head case and has been one from day one.

Pro bowl you say most thought rivers should have went.

Just how many of his players are still starters in the NFL and do not face suspension by the league.


Sorry not impressed with his "talent" evals.
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Jr, there is no one on this board that can change your opinion...why even try...I mean obviously McDaniels agrees with you, that's why Dumervil, Moss, Thomas are still on the team. I guess you just like smacking shit in the face of players like Dumvervil or how about Darrent Williams? Yeah, I would say he did pretty well during his short tenure as Head of Player Personnel and Scouting; Cutler, Marshall, Scheffler, Clady, Harris, Kuper, Dumvervil, Williams.

So who has your idol, McDaniels and his prestigious ass kissing General Manager drafted that is so superb? Name on great player that has been drafted in their first two drafts that prove them better then Jim Goodman? Can you?...Hello? Moreno, Ayers, 'Alphonso Smith' - :lol:, who is the great talent? Not one of them has proven to be more then average as of yet.

:coffee:

[Jake Klug]

Jr, there is no one on this board that can change your opinion...why even try...I mean obviously McDaniels agrees with you, that's why Dumervil, Moss, Thomas are still on the team. I guess you just like smacking shit in the face of players like Dumvervil or how about Darrent Williams? Yeah, I would say he did pretty well during his short tenure as Head of Player Personnel and Scouting; Cutler, Marshall, Scheffler, Clady, Harris, Kuper, Dumvervil, Williams.

So who has your idol, McDaniels and his prestigious ass kissing General Manager drafted that is so superb? Name on great player that has been drafted in their first two drafts that prove them better then Jim Bateman? Can you?...Hello? Moreno, Ayers, 'Alphonso Smith' - :lol:, who is the great talent? Not one of them has proven to be more then average as of yet.

:coffee:

Its Jim Goodman, not Jim Bateman. But in this respect, youre not far off: in the 07 draft, Goodman was drafting players for Jim Bates' defense and then in mid season they made a change for the worse (I think few would argue that).

Its also worth pointing out that two years into this regime, Thomas, Moss, and Harris are still on the roster. Its a little bit contradicory to blow smoke about the 07 draft when the current regime kept them around and you are blindly defending the current regime. If the current regime can do no wrong and the current regime kept them around, theyre obviously good enough to keep around, since they had 2 chances to replace them and didnt.

[Lancane]

Its Jim Goodman, not Jim Bateman. But in this respect, youre not far off: in the 07 draft, Goodman was drafting players for Jim Bates' defense and then in mid season they made a change for the worse (I think few would argue that).

Its also worth pointing out that two years into this regime, Thomas, Moss, and Harris are still on the roster. Its a little bit contradicory to blow smoke about the 07 draft when the current regime kept them around and you are blindly defending the current regime. If the current regime can do no wrong and the current regime kept them around, theyre obviously good enough to keep around, since they had 2 chances to replace them and didnt.

Sorry, you're right Klug...I don't know why I have Bateman stuck in my head...Oh yeah, he was the former coach of the Denton High School football team named the Broncos that died of leukemia not long back.

[Shazam!]

Sorry, but I see this as a death sentance for McDaniels...

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Jr, there is no one on this board that can change your opinion...why even try...I mean obviously McDaniels agrees with you, that's why Dumervil, Moss, Thomas are still on the team. I guess you just like smacking shit in the face of players like Dumvervil or how about Darrent Williams? Yeah, I would say he did pretty well during his short tenure as Head of Player Personnel and Scouting; Cutler, Marshall, Scheffler, Clady, Harris, Kuper, Dumvervil, Williams.

So who has your idol, McDaniels and his prestigious ass kissing General Manager drafted that is so superb? Name on great player that has been drafted in their first two drafts that prove them better then Jim Goodman? Can you?...Hello? Moreno, Ayers, 'Alphonso Smith' - :lol:, who is the great talent? Not one of them has proven to be more then average as of yet.

:coffee:

That statement might be a little harsh - not even the GREAT #7 proved very much in his first year and a half as to how GREAT he would end up. Not saying those you named will end up great, but should they not have more than a year and a half to prove yes or no?

[BroncoStud]

Sorry, but I see this as a death sentance for McDaniels...

Agreed, doesn't sound good for him. He had better walk in and tell Pat this is a complete rebuild, 100% from top to bottom and try to buy himself some time.

[Lancane]

That statement might be a little harsh - not even the GREAT #7 proved very much in his first year and a half as to how GREAT he would end up. Not saying those you named will end up great, but should they not have more than a year and a half to prove yes or no?

I'm not being harsh, I am being very honest...has anyone of those drafted by McDaniels and this regime even shown a spark of above average talent?

Clady started his first season and turned heads, Marshall showed sparks of his ability his rookie season, then became a household name his second season. Ryan Clady, Darrent Williams, Dominique Foxworth, Chris Kuper, Ryan Harris, Jay Cutler, Eddie Royal and the list goes on, but usually you find the rookies who start in the NFL above average and those of better talent coming into their own in their second season. Out of last years class, Ayers and Moreno had the most promise, our other first round pick 'Alphonso Smith' is gone, and better with his new team. But Ayers is injured and Moreno is a bust in the new blocking scheme. What rookies from this draft have proven fruitful? Yeah, we have some starting on the offensive line...but are they really dominant? Our offensive line is horrid right now compared to last years. Look at the defensive backs that have been drafted, while they're growing in the system has anyone of them earned a starting role over the aged secondary starters we have in the lineup?

The true question is, has the talent they drafted shown as much promise as any under Goodman? The answer is no.

And a side note, the Great John Elway led the Broncos to a 12-2-0 record in just his second season, and was in contention voting for the AP All-Pro Team.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Agreed, doesn't sound good for him. He had better walk in and tell Pat this is a complete rebuild, 100% from top to bottom and try to buy himself some time.

I would hope that Pat would already know that.

[dogfish]

i'd be happy if josh's #12 overall RB was as good as jim goodman's 7th round fullback. . .

[JDL]

I'm not being harsh, I am being very honest...has anyone of those drafted by McDaniels and this regime even shown a spark of above average talent?

Clady started his first season and turned heads, Marshall showed sparks of his ability his rookie season, then became a household name his second season. Ryan Clady, Darrent Williams, Dominique Foxworth, Chris Kuper, Ryan Harris, Jay Cutler, Eddie Royal and the list goes on, but usually you find the rookies who start in the NFL above average and those of better talent coming into their own in their second season. Out of last years class, Ayers and Moreno had the most promise, our other first round pick 'Alphonso Smith' is gone, and better with his new team. But Ayers is injured and Moreno is a bust in the new blocking scheme. What rookies from this draft have proven fruitful? Yeah, we have some starting on the offensive line...but are they really dominant? Our offensive line is horrid right now compared to last years. Look at the defensive backs that have been drafted, while they're growing in the system has anyone of them earned a starting role over the aged secondary starters we have in the lineup?

The true question is, has the talent they drafted shown as much promise as any under Goodman? The answer is no.

And a side note, the Great John Elway led the Broncos to a 12-2-0 record in just his second season, and was in contention voting for the AP All-Pro Team.

I REALLY believe D.T. will be the best Broncos WR we've ever had... the burst he has at his size... he snatches the ball... he just flashes greatness... hope he can achieve it.

[Lancane]

I REALLY believe D.T. will be the best Broncos WR we've ever had... the burst he has at his size... he snatches the ball... he just flashes greatness... hope he can achieve it.

That's all great and dandy, but those are big shoes to fill...Rod Smith is the arguably the greatest Bronco receiver of all time, and Marshall was and is arguably the most talented wideout in the league out of the younger receivers. People believed Lelie and Royal would set the bar as well...point being is that to be that, they have to prove it. Thomas as a rookie isn't even starting over Gaffney or Royal? But the receiver that was ranked above him at the time of the draft is already showing flashes in Dallas and is in contention to be Rookie Offensive Player of the Year, though Sam Bradford probably has it locked.

If he's as good as his tangibles suggest, then he literally should be starting or playing a more pivotal role in an offense that has trouble finding the endzone. I would like to see him lineup as a tight end in tight end sets and see what he can do once the ball is in his hands and if has the playmaker abilities we lost when Marshall was traded away. Of course, I'd like to see what Decker could do as well, their both big wideouts, maybe one or the other should be moved to the tight end position to give Orton and Tebow a security blanket that will ease their mind.

[Jake Klug]

I REALLY believe D.T. will be the best Broncos WR we've ever had... the burst he has at his size... he snatches the ball... he just flashes greatness... hope he can achieve it.

Thats great but even if he is, its hard to imagine him being that much better than Marshall. And its also taking one of Josh's first round picks to replace one of Goodmans 4th round picks. The irony in all of this is that Joe Ellis thought he knew what he was doing by wanting to be like the Patriots. He was thinking he would get a magic potion that would make good players want to take less money for playing on a good team. Instead, because of his coup d'etat against Goodman, economically, losing the production Goodman was generating with his low round picks is actually costing Pat more. Thomas' rookie contract is obviously going to be bigger than Marshall's as a first round pick. Same with Moreno and Hillis.

[Northman]

And its also taking one of Josh's first round picks to replace one of Goodmans 4th round picks.

Indeed.

And now Brandon is ruining the Dolphins and they are suffering right now....errr...wait a minute... they are just fine and winning.

[Broncos Mtnman]

Based on his double-mindedness during the firing of Shanny, the Cutler fiasco and his Al Davis impersonation by being invisible, I'm convinced Pat is suffering from alzheimer's disease.

:coffee:

[Ravage!!!]

Based on his double-mindedness during the firing of Shanny, the Cutler fiasco and his Al Davis impersonation by being invisible, I'm convinced Pat is suffering from alzheimer's disease.

:coffee:

THat may not be unrealistic at all. I don'tknow, but I personally believe we've seen times of deterioration.

[jhildebrand]

Tell me the last time Pat Bowlen spoke during the season? :confused:

Pat Bowlen will speak. I can guarantee it. The problem, for some people, is it wont come soon enough. He is a saavy businessman and he wont simply cave to public pressure.

He will speak at season's end and not a moment before he has completely digested this entire season!

[Lonestar]

Jr, there is no one on this board that can change your opinion...why even try...I mean obviously McDaniels agrees with you, that's why Dumervil, Moss, Thomas are still on the team. I guess you just like smacking shit in the face of players like Dumvervil or how about Darrent Williams? Yeah, I would say he did pretty well during his short tenure as Head of Player Personnel and Scouting; Cutler, Marshall, Scheffler, Clady, Harris, Kuper, Dumvervil, Williams.

So who has your idol, McDaniels and his prestigious ass kissing General Manager drafted that is so superb? Name on great player that has been drafted in their first two drafts that prove them better then Jim Goodman? Can you?...Hello? Moreno, Ayers, 'Alphonso Smith' - :lol:, who is the great talent? Not one of them has proven to be more then average as of yet.

:coffee:

I guess there is no changing your mind either. IIRC the quote was just how many players he "supposedly" drafted remain starters in the NFL not facing suspension.

That would be Clady a slam dunk according to many.
Kuper just got a bew contract by Josh.

Doom same as above but then he as it stands is a specialist only.

Cutler but then that could be I'm WAS next year after wearing his welcome out in CHI.

Marshall does not fall into the cirteria as the commish is just waiting to nuke him.

TS still not impressed with him like everyone else is

Thomas is not a starter. Has taken 4 years to get on the field.

Williams I know that he is loved by one and all. But he was being pulled from the starting line up when he was murdered.

Folks you failed to mention IIRC moss is a joke
The other 2 DBs that came with Willaims were jokes as was crowder,those are just off the top of my head.

As for Josh think we have had some nice picks kind of hard to tell so far as most are still learning the game.

Ayers I believe will be on of the best OLB in the game.

Moreno will be a good RB.

Smith last year is a starter in DET.
DT has loads of potential.

Tebow is off the charts. Beadles and JD Walton. Should be long term oline guys.

Sorry been a long day

from OKC
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[Lancane]

Jr, the point is if you compare regime to regime in a two year period, regarding only talent evaluation, drafting and free agency additions, then McDaniels and his staff are nowhere close to the level of Jim Goodman.

But, I believe that in someways you are like me, not optimistic...but that you favor the old days of football more then the new. When teams played hard nosed, face to the grind, smashmouth football; when coaches coached and players came to play no matter the weather, sickness or injuries. When players acted like men and debutant attitudes were squashed quickly or they were out of the league. I may be wrong...but I don't think so.

However, the league is at fault for the way the game is now...to be competitive you have to deal with the issues that plague athletes, who can demand top dollar and make more money then the football players of yesteryear could even imagine. I don't like free agency, I loved football when their was longer drafts, if you acquired a player it was through trade and coaches were responsible more for the final product on the field. Now you can barely touch the quarterback without being fined, hard hitters are required to baby step around and watch letting it all out on the field. McDaniels is not old school, but he's trying to be in a league that has passed his thinking by, talent is what wins football games and he needs to coach his athletes to meet that standard. His way is ruining this team, not from lack of effort...but from a lack of understanding that this is the new NFL. The Vikings and Jaguars are in trouble of being moved to new venues, London is likely to get a team as is L.A. and both teams have been named as possibles for those two new venues. If a fanbase is unhappy, it could effect the team more then just fiscally. Japan would also like to have an NFL team and has contacted the league about having a game played in the larger districts there...if London gets a team, how long until this booms and we become fully international?

Point being is that we have to be competitive, we have to have top-tier talent, we need to be able to put a product out there where even if we are not in the playoffs year in and year out is capable to go all the way. Because that is the name of the game now, not just Championships but having a quality product that continues to bring in revenue...yes, it's sad...but nonetheless true.

[ChampWJ]

i'd be happy if josh's #12 overall RB was as good as jim goodman's 7th round fullback. . .

I loved Hillis and admired the way he carried himself and the way the team fed off his energy. He is a classic overachiever and definitely a guy I would want on my team. That said, the above comparison is absurd IMO. Talent-wise Moreno has far greater potential. All things being equal, there is probably not a team in this league that would choose Hillis over Moreno.

[Lancane]

I loved Hillis and admired the way he carried himself and the way the team fed off his energy. He is a classic overachiever and definitely a guy I would want on my team. That said, the above comparison is absurd IMO. Talent-wise Moreno has far greater potential. All things being equal, there is probably not a team in this league that would choose Hillis over Moreno.

That may be true...but you also have to add players that fit the system and scheme. Even Moreno with his high ceiling of talent does not fit the new blocking scheme we use, though he can fit the spread offensive system itself, which tells me that when he was drafted we were looking for a finesse football player when we needed to take into consideration that a change in the blocking scheme could alter the need later, trading for Maroney this year also said as much, and was a dumb trade itself. But neither is a good fit with the man-to-man blocking scheme in play...thus Hillis would have been a better fit overall for the team.

What we need is a big bruising tailback that can not only break the line of scrimmage for tough yards but can continue a bruising run for ten to fifteen yards compared to a finesse back that needs a complete hole and can dance for bigger gains, but if hit to early can not get back to the line of scrimmage.

[ChampWJ]

That may be true...but you also have to add players that fit the system and scheme. Even Moreno with his high ceiling of talent does not fit the new blocking scheme we use, though he can fit the spread offensive system itself, which tells me that when he was drafted we were looking for a finesse football player when we needed to take into consideration that a change in the blocking scheme could alter the need later, trading for Maroney this year also said as much, and was a dumb trade itself. But neither is a good fit with the man-to-man blocking scheme in play...thus Hillis would have been a better fit overall for the team.

What we need is a big bruising tailback that can not only break the line of scrimmage for tough yards but can continue a bruising run for ten to fifteen yards compared to a finesse back that needs a complete hole and can dance for bigger gains, but if hit to early can not get back to the line of scrimmage.

Here's what I don't get. McDaniels clearly has an idea of the type of back that fits his scheme. He wouldn't have drafted Moreno if he didn't believe he fit. He continues to bring in backs with similar skill-sets. I do not believe McDaniels would repeatedly bring in players who do not fit his scheme at RB.

That leads me to believe it is not necessarily a flawed scheme or talent that doesn't fit at RB but poor execution of the scheme.

So I'm not sure a power-back or change of pace back would make that much of a difference. I don't think the results would be all that different if we could plug in another top-tier back from around the league. Until the team keeps defenders out of the backfield and improves on second level blocking it's just going to keep being a struggle for whoever is back there.

[Canmore]

Here's what I don't get. McDaniels clearly has an idea of the type of back that fits his scheme. He wouldn't have drafted Moreno if he didn't believe he fit. He continues to bring in backs with similar skill-sets. I do not believe McDaniels would repeatedly bring in players who do not fit his scheme at RB.

That leads me to believe it is not necessarily a flawed scheme or talent that doesn't fit at RB but poor execution of the scheme.

So I'm not sure a power-back or change of pace back would make that much of a difference. I don't think the results would be all that different if we could plug in another top-tier back from around the league. Until the team keeps defenders out of the backfield and improves on second level blocking it's just going to keep being a struggle for whoever is back there.

Poor execution of the scheme!!! Who is responsible for the scheme? McDaniels seems out of his element as HC. He is no longer just a coordinator. Where do you place the blame for a 2-6 season?

[dogfish]

I loved Hillis and admired the way he carried himself and the way the team fed off his energy. He is a classic overachiever and definitely a guy I would want on my team. That said, the above comparison is absurd IMO. Talent-wise Moreno has far greater potential. All things being equal, there is probably not a team in this league that would choose Hillis over Moreno.

oh, sure-- moreno has a ton of potential, no doubt. . .


hillis is just a better player on the field, where the games actually happen. . .

[ChampWJ]

Poor execution of the scheme!!! Who is responsible for the scheme? McDaniels seems out of his element as HC. He is no longer just a coordinator. Where do you place the blame for a 2-6 season?

I think you misunderstood me. I wasn't trying to take blame away from McDaniels and I do believe he is responsible but that's not what I was discussing. I was just saying he clearly has a certain type of running back he thinks will be successful in his scheme, and the scheme has been proven in NE.

I believe if all the backs are struggling in a similar manner and putting up similar stats, there is something else wrong. How else do you explain Moroney running for 4.3 and 4.5 ypc in the same system in NE and 2.1 ypc here?

Does Moreno fit the scheme? I don't know, but McDaniels thinks so and he's who decides. He would not bring in a player that he doesn't think fits, but maybe he hasn't yet brought in enough of them in certain positions.

[ChampWJ]

oh, sure-- moreno has a ton of potential, no doubt. . .


hillis is just a better player on the field, where the games actually happen. . .

That is debatable, and probably won't be 5 years from now.

[Canmore]

Here's what I don't get. McDaniels clearly has an idea of the type of back that fits his scheme. He wouldn't have drafted Moreno if he didn't believe he fit. He continues to bring in backs with similar skill-sets. I do not believe McDaniels would repeatedly bring in players who do not fit his scheme at RB.

That leads me to believe it is not necessarily a flawed scheme or talent that doesn't fit at RB but poor execution of the scheme.

So I'm not sure a power-back or change of pace back would make that much of a difference. I don't think the results would be all that different if we could plug in another top-tier back from around the league. Until the team keeps defenders out of the backfield and improves on second level blocking it's just going to keep being a struggle for whoever is back there.


I think you misunderstood me. I wasn't trying to take blame away from McDaniels and I do believe he is responsible but that's not what I was discussing. I was just saying he clearly has a certain type of running back he thinks will be successful in his scheme, and the scheme has been proven in NE.

I believe if all the backs are struggling in a similar manner and putting up similar stats, there is something else wrong. How else do you explain Moroney running for 4.3 and 4.5 ypc in the same system in NE and 2.1 ypc here?

Does Moreno fit the scheme? I don't know, but McDaniels thinks so and he's who decides. He would not bring in a player that he doesn't think fits, but maybe he hasn't yet brought in enough of them in certain positions.

The scheme in NE has been wildly successful, but here it has been a bust . Moreno 3.3 ypc, Maroney 2.1 ypc. Where do you lay the blame if not at Mc Daniels doorstep?

[Elevation inc]

And who might those players be just which ones are still on the team. Espeically from the d isde of the LOS. Seems to me he was here in O7. When that draft was a ******* bust.

Also other than the die hard jay lovers how many still feel that jay is/was so hot other than having a cannon for an arm. He is a head case and has been one from day one.

Pro bowl you say most thought rivers should have went.

Just how many of his players are still starters in the NFL and do not face suspension by the league.


Sorry not impressed with his "talent" evals.
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ryan harris was legit untill injuries derailed him, moss was a complete bust, but thomas is now our best DL player and is actually plaing like one of the top ten 3-4 De's in the league so the whole 3 year thing for DL was legit in his case, and guys like crowder didnt fit here becasue they were being tried out a freaking LB and 290 lbs......

2008 was a great draft and i have no doubt goodman would have done just fine in 2009, however goodman was not happy about the cutler thing and voiced it publicly which pretty much set his release in stone.....

[Broncolingus]

Let's win some games in the postseason, Joe (et al)...

...that's about all that needs to happen at this point to 'fix' things.

[SOCALORADO.]

Let's win some games in the postseason, Joe (et al)...

...that's about all that needs to happen at this point to 'fix' things.

Damn straight!

Remember every year, always at least going to the playoffs!?!?!
Rooting for a competitive team every year.
WTF!! DAMMIT!!

http://cache4.asset-cache.net/xc/81592941.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=77BFBA49EF8789215ABF3343C02EA5486BCE91AAC67B81C2 B3395010FE879DD52D9F69A56BCED3AC

http://cache3.asset-cache.net/xc/81414049.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=77BFBA49EF8789215ABF3343C02EA5482642787C83D28C4A 9B1B332DA1438973A85F75CFB016407D

[SOCALORADO.]

And on a side note, after these current no-talent @$$ Clowns are friggin fired, and Gruden is brought in with a real GM, lets go back to these uni's.
Bring back some of the old school, @$$ kickin attitude.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_csaf_nZ2c2Q/TDvdBYiQiKI/AAAAAAAADpI/Rr5trjKcnwM/s1600/john-elway--old-uniform.jpg

http://cache1.asset-cache.net/xc/81416703.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=77BFBA49EF8789215ABF3343C02EA5485437C20B3F921247 6A153E04FA0995ECF319AF0EEC3DA3A5

[Broncolingus]

I should probably have caveated my reply above to say that of course I don't realistically expect Denver being in the playoffs EVERY single year (although the Patriots and Steelers seem to have no problem doing that), but...

...1 friggin playoff win in 10+ years is piss-poor no matter how you look at things and Bronco's Inc. is/has had PLENTY of time to 'rebuild...'

...again, JMO.

[SOCALORADO.]

I should probably have caveated my reply above to say that of course I don't realistically expect Denver being in the playoffs EVERY single year (although the Patriots and Steelers seem to have no problem doing that), but...

...1 friggin playoff win in 10+ years is piss-poor no matter how you look at things and Bronco's Inc. is/has had PLENTY of time to 'rebuild...'

...again, JMO.

This.

[arapaho2]

I think you misunderstood me. I wasn't trying to take blame away from McDaniels and I do believe he is responsible but that's not what I was discussing. I was just saying he clearly has a certain type of running back he thinks will be successful in his scheme, and the scheme has been proven in NE.

I believe if all the backs are struggling in a similar manner and putting up similar stats, there is something else wrong. How else do you explain Moroney running for 4.3 and 4.5 ypc in the same system in NE and 2.1 ypc here?

Does Moreno fit the scheme? I don't know, but McDaniels thinks so and he's who decides. He would not bring in a player that he doesn't think fits, but maybe he hasn't yet brought in enough of them in certain positions.

in 2008 with mcd as OC...moroney averaged 3.3....in 09 he averaged 3.9

he averaged 4.5 before josh became OC..think about it

[Lonestar]

Some are complaining that this oline are not as good as last years.

Are Y'all forgeting that Clady nuked his knee in APR. Had surgery that normally takes at least 12 months to come back and be normal let alone great on.IIRC he did not play or practice for any of the Preseason.

Add to that harris who has yet to play/start in MORE than half of the games elidgeble since he has been with the Broncos due to injuries. Who also missed most of last season with toe issues and then off season surgery. He did not play or practice much of preseason.

Kuper who is also coming off ankle surgery has not looked his old self yet either.

When you add two rookies into the mix, one who has played at every spot on the oline at one point this year other than OC.

Not sure what Y'all expect out of this group and why anyone is remotely thinking they are or should be like last years as well as 08s that every guy played all games all year.

We are only half way through the year how about we see whatthey wind up like before calling them a total failure.

Oh btw none of the starting RBs practice at all with this oline during preseason.
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[Ravage!!!]

in 2008 with mcd as OC...moroney averaged 3.3....in 09 he averaged 3.9

he averaged 4.5 before josh became OC..think about it

and Bellicheck gets rid of Moroney. NE's new back, Ellis-Greeen, averaged 3.7 the lat year McD was the OC... the two years after, he's averaged 4.4.

[Northman]

Some are complaining that this oline are not as good as last years.

Are Y'all forgeting that Clady nuked his knee in APR. Had surgery that normally takes at least 12 months to come back and be normal let alone great on.IIRC he did not play or practice for any of the Preseason.

Add to that harris who has yet to play/start in MORE than half of the games elidgeble since he has been with the Broncos due to injuries. Who also missed most of last season with toe issues and then off season surgery. He did not play or practice much of preseason.

Kuper who is also coming off ankle surgery has not looked his old self yet either.

When you add two rookies into the mix, one who has played at every spot on the oline at one point this year other than OC.

Not sure what Y'all expect out of this group and why anyone is remotely thinking they are or should be like last years as well as 08s that every guy played all games all year.

We are only half way through the year how about we see whatthey wind up like before calling them a total failure.

Oh btw none of the starting RBs practice at all with this oline during preseason.
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Judging by this article i dont think Ellis and Bowlen cares about all that. They want the team to win just like most of us. Excuses are just that, excuses. From what im reading there both Ellis and Bowlen have confidence that McD will do better this last stretch but that doesnt mean going 2-6 again. Im guessing they want more wins than losses down the stretch so while your giving excuse after excuse it would seem those guys arent buying it.

[Lonestar]

Poor execution of the scheme!!! Who is responsible for the scheme? McDaniels seems out of his element as HC. He is no longer just a coordinator. Where do you place the blame for a 2-6 season?

Injuries, rookies and poor execution.

Yes Josh is ultimately resposible.

But is Josh the bad guy because ;ust to name a few Clady, harris, kuper, doom, ayers, moreno, white, DT and more all missing part, all of the season or just not ready to play(100%) for Clady, harris Kuper. Please do not use the tired excuse of everyone has to deal with injuries. While they do VERY few of those teams were almost deviod of talent inhierted from the prior regime.

Let me address that lack of the talent that was left most of them are listed above.

We also had NO depth past them.

It takes time to ramp up depth unless you continue to do waht has been M.O. In DEN bring in tired vets to get a couple of years out of them while having crappy drafts.
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[Lonestar]

oh, sure-- moreno has a ton of potential, no doubt. . .


hillis is just a better player on the field, where the games actually happen. . .

Just curious which one will last longer in the league a RB that is not taking on anyone in his way by trying to run over them. Or Moreno that is not taking heavy duty hits every time.

Do not get me wrong I loved Hillis but I believe there is more to the story than we all know.
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[jhildebrand]

I loved Hillis and admired the way he carried himself and the way the team fed off his energy. He is a classic overachiever and definitely a guy I would want on my team. That said, the above comparison is absurd IMO. Talent-wise Moreno has far greater potential. All things being equal, there is probably not a team in this league that would choose Hillis over Moreno.

I think your argument is highly speculative at best. There is no way to discern whether all 32 teams would take Moreno over Hillis especially if you are basing it off of what we know now!

Potential is a great thing, just ask Ryan Leaf, Jeff George, Drukenmiller, Heath Shuler. They were full of potential yet guys like Gus Frerotte (7th round), Tom Brady (7th Round) Joe Montana (3rd IIRC) would all disagree with you. At some point you have to leave the world of tangibles like body prototypes and all the measuring tape BS of the combine and go with game tape.

At the end of the day Hillis and Moreno rushed behind the same line. Hillis is the only weapon teams prepare for when they play Cleveland yet he still racks up 100 yard games. Moreno can't even get 100! :eek:

[arapaho2]

Injuries, rookies and poor execution.

Yes Josh is ultimately resposible.

But is Josh the bad guy because ;ust to name a few Clady, harris, kuper, doom, ayers, moreno, white, DT and more all missing part, all of the season or just not ready to play(100%) for Clady, harris Kuper. Please do not use the tired excuse of everyone has to deal with injuries. While they do VERY few of those teams were almost deviod of talent inhierted from the prior regime.

Let me address that lack of the talent that was left most of them are listed above.

We also had NO depth past them.

It takes time to ramp up depth unless you continue to do waht has been M.O. In DEN bring in tired vets to get a couple of years out of them while having crappy drafts.
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check the oline injury report of 07...i seem to remember losing two all pro probowl lineman one being the long time center

funny how that wasnt a excuse then by you:lol::lol:

as for the talent injured...weird how all the legit talent injured..is shanny talent...and i wouldnt call ayers or moreno "talent" yet neither has shown anything

the other funny part ...all this "inherited team void of talent" had alot of talent on offense prior to josh comeing...he himself devoided this offense of talent and depth

[arapaho2]

Just curious which one will last longer in the league a RB that is not taking on anyone in his way by trying to run over them. Or Moreno that is not taking heavy duty hits every time.

Do not get me wrong I loved Hillis but I believe there is more to the story than we all know.
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just curious...what back gives you the better chance to win...one like hillis willing to and able to avoid the tackle...or just run over and through the tackle

or moreno that is not " taking heavey duty hits" because he falls over in a stiff breeze and couldnt run over anybody to save his life

[jhildebrand]

just curious...what back gives you the better chance to win...one like hillis willing to and able to avoid the tackle...or just run over and through the tackle

or moreno that is not " taking heavey duty hits" because he falls over in a stiff breeze and couldnt run over anybody to save his life

Or one in Hillis who can stay healthy and stay on the field and even plays knicked up or hurt?

[jhildebrand]

The more time goes on the more I buy into the idea that the Broncos drafted Moreno to keep him out of the Chargers hands. Which in itself says a lot about McDaniels if it is true or you believe it to be true.

[Lonestar]

I think you misunderstood me. I wasn't trying to take blame away from McDaniels and I do believe he is responsible but that's not what I was discussing. I was just saying he clearly has a certain type of running back he thinks will be successful in his scheme, and the scheme has been proven in NE.

I believe if all the backs are struggling in a similar manner and putting up similar stats, there is something else wrong. How else do you explain Moroney running for 4.3 and 4.5 ypc in the same system in NE and 2.1 ypc here?
.

It is called an exprienced OLINE that is not injured. Logan Mankins is/was a HUGE part of that. Please anyone really believe that would not make a difference?
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[arapaho2]

It is called an exprienced OLINE that is not injured. Logan Mankins is/was a HUGE part of that. Please anyone really believe that would not make a difference?
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the pats oline was completly healthy in 08- 09 when moroney rushed for less then 4 ypc under josh

[Ravage!!!]

the pats oline was completly healthy in 08- 09 when moroney rushed for less then 4 ypc under josh

Ellis-Green rushed for 3.7 ypc when josh was the OC in NE. He's rushed for 4.4 since Josh left.

[Lonestar]

Damn straight!

Remember every year, always at least going to the playoffs!?!?!
Rooting for a competitive team every year.
WTF!! DAMMIT!!

http://cache4.asset-cache.net/xc/81592941.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=77BFBA49EF8789215ABF3343C02EA5486BCE91AAC67B81C2 B3395010FE879DD52D9F69A56BCED3AC

http://cache3.asset-cache.net/xc/81414049.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=77BFBA49EF8789215ABF3343C02EA5482642787C83D28C4A 9B1B332DA1438973A85F75CFB016407D

Sorry but getting your ass kicked every year BUT the superbowl years doth make me happy either. Rather not go.
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[arapaho2]

Ellis-Green rushed for 3.7 ypc when josh was the OC in NE. He's rushed for 4.4 since Josh left.


yep...joshes offense is the running back killer...not our line...aside from the fact we have 3 underwhelming backs

[arapaho2]

Sorry but getting your ass kicked every year BUT the superbowl years doth make me happy either. Rather not go.
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yet somehow going 2-6 this yr ....or worse 4-12 over the past 16 games...surprisenly makes you happy and content..:lol::lol:

weird

[rcsodak]

Damn straight!

Remember every year, always at least going to the playoffs!?!?!
Rooting for a competitive team every year.
WTF!! DAMMIT!!

http://cache4.asset-cache.net/xc/81592941.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=77BFBA49EF8789215ABF3343C02EA5486BCE91AAC67B81C2 B3395010FE879DD52D9F69A56BCED3AC

http://cache3.asset-cache.net/xc/81414049.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=77BFBA49EF8789215ABF3343C02EA5482642787C83D28C4A 9B1B332DA1438973A85F75CFB016407D
I miss Jake also.
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[SOCALORADO.]

Sorry but getting your ass kicked every year BUT the superbowl years doth make me happy either. Rather not go.
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Your on crack!
I and 99% of the bronco fans here would absolutely love to have a team just like BALT, since they won the SB in 2000, have consistently been in the play-offs or at least putting a team that is in hunt on the field for its fans.

[rcsodak]

maybe bowlen can't remember what he had for breakfast this morning. . .


:noidea:
Thats really distasteful, dog...even for you. Dementia is nothing to joke about. I just lost my grandmother to it. How about leaving the health of Mr B out of the jokes.
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[dogfish]

Sorry but getting your ass kicked every year BUT the superbowl years doth make me happy either. Rather not go.Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

well shit, why didn't you say so in the first place?

now your defense-to-the-death of joshy makes perfect sense!

:lol:



hehe. . . sorry JR, but you walked riiiight inta that one. . .

[rcsodak]

Wouldnt it have been nice for him to just come out and say,
"well we really screwed the pouch here"

Just because i think they have really screwed the pouch.

anyway, it was what I expected

what kind of "pouch" did they screw? And was it empty? :D
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[Jake Klug]

Your on crack!
I and 99% of the bronco fans here would absolutely love to have a team just like BALT, since they won the SB in 2000, have consistently been in the play-offs or at least putting a team that is in hunt on the field for its fans.

Its kind of amazing the amount of affection that people have for the Orange Crush days. Maybe its just the nickname. Theyll long for those days while finding flaw with Shanahan's time in Denver. Sorry but the uncomfortable truth is that, even though people may like the Orange Crush teams, they didnt win SBs because they werent good enough. Under Shanahan, the Broncos were more than good enough. So this nostalgia trip is something thats always a little fascinating.

But, truly, right now, Id take either era of Broncos football, primarily because both eras are Broncos football and not some attempt at trying to be another franchise. And I realize its a copy cat league but whats been going on here goes beyond that.

[arapaho2]

Your on crack!
I and 99% of the bronco fans here would absolutely love to have a team just like BALT, since they won the SB in 2000, have consistently been in the play-offs or at least putting a team that is in hunt on the field for its fans.


well JR would rather be a disgustingly bad below .500 team with josh...that a team thats at least competative and can get a playoff game


dont understand his philosophy....but i understand little he says:lol:

[rcsodak]

Amen.. and someone not ever involved in any way with W.
So you dont want elway around?

Btw, they were winning when W was in office. :coffee:
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[rcsodak]

Its Jim Goodman, not Jim Bateman. But in this respect, youre not far off: in the 07 draft, Goodman was drafting players for Jim Bates' defense and then in mid season they made a change for the worse (I think few would argue that).

Its also worth pointing out that two years into this regime, Thomas, Moss, and Harris are still on the roster. Its a little bit contradicory to blow smoke about the 07 draft when the current regime kept them around and you are blindly defending the current regime. If the current regime can do no wrong and the current regime kept them around, theyre obviously good enough to keep around, since they had 2 chances to replace them and didnt.
So make up your minds on the current regime's talent evaluation. If they kept these players and got top value for the others, then they, too, can evaluate talent.
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[SOCALORADO.]

Its kind of amazing the amount of affection that people have for the Orange Crush days. Maybe its just the nickname. Theyll long for those days while finding flaw with Shanahan's time in Denver. Sorry but the uncomfortable truth is that, even though people may like the Orange Crush teams, they didnt win SBs because they werent good enough. Under Shanahan, the Broncos were more than good enough. So this nostalgia trip is something thats always a little fascinating.

But, truly, right now, Id take either era of Broncos football, primarily because both eras are Broncos football and not some attempt at trying to be another franchise. And I realize its a copy cat league but whats been going on here goes beyond that.

I dont even think it comes down to specific periods or decades that folks are recounting and wishing for those days again.

I and many here just want to have a team that can compete for the AFC West Title and a playoff spot year in and year out, and we at least are satisfied, and can go and watch our team compete and have a somewhat positive attitude about being a fan.
Of course we want SB's, but at this point i am just trying to be realistic.

Getting your @$$ kicked by a divisional rival 60-14 is just simply unacceptable.
Especially considering that the team doin the @$$ kickin pretty much blows.

[Lonestar]

...1 friggin playoff win in 10+ years is piss-poor no matter how you look at things and Bronco's Inc. is/has had PLENTY of time to 'rebuild...'

...again, JMO.

Yes they should have had Draft choices worth a crap from 99 to 06.

The drfat is what you build with and is your foundation.

It takes more than a year to get that.
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[rcsodak]

The scheme in NE has been wildly successful, but here it has been a bust . Moreno 3.3 ypc, Maroney 2.1 ypc. Where do you lay the blame if not at Mc Daniels doorstep?
Oline/Oline coach?

ding ding ding
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[rcsodak]

in 2008 with mcd as OC...moroney averaged 3.3....in 09 he averaged 3.9

he averaged 4.5 before josh became OC..think about it
how'd brady do that year? :coffee:
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[Jake Klug]

So make up your minds on the current regime's talent evaluation. If they kept these players and got top value for the others, then they, too, can evaluate talent.
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This makes no sense.

[rcsodak]

and Bellicheck gets rid of Moroney. NE's new back, Ellis-Greeen, averaged 3.7 the lat year McD was the OC... the two years after, he's averaged 4.4.
how'd brady do that year?
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[Lancane]

Sorry but getting your ass kicked every year BUT the superbowl years doth make me happy either. Rather not go.
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Mike Shanahan as head coach of the Broncos only posted five seasons of .500 or below, and officially only posted two seasons below that standard. 138 wins and 86 losses, only seven seasons did he post under 10 wins in a season his other seven seasons he had 10 plus.

I'm not saying it was always great...but credit him what he's earned Jr, at least do that much! As for most of us, we don't agree with you, as I pointed out earlier...it's not about winning it all every year as it once was, it's about remaining competitive to stay in your venue, to keep the seats filled and products distributing off the shelf rather then collecting dust. Win? Yes, but win now whether or not it be 10 wins and a short playoff berth or 13 and a Super Bowl championship.

[Northman]

Thats really distasteful, dog...even for you. Dementia is nothing to joke about. I just lost my grandmother to it. How about leaving the health of Mr B out of the jokes.
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This is priceless coming from the guy who played a joke about Jrwiz dying.

[Lonestar]

Judging by this article i dont think Ellis and Bowlen cares about all that. They want the team to win just like most of us. Excuses are just that, excuses. From what im reading there both Ellis and Bowlen have confidence that McD will do better this last stretch but that doesnt mean going 2-6 again. Im guessing they want more wins than losses down the stretch so while your giving excuse after excuse it would seem those guys arent buying it.

They are reasons not excuses. Only the hard core do not see it for what it is. 60% of last years oline is not what it was last year. The NFL leading sacker is on IR all year the guy that was coming on strong to repalce him is a heartbeat away from IR. The big back went on IR before being able to show his stuff.

Y'all need to realize those are valid REASONs for being where we are today.

Is there any doubt in anyones minds that if the above folks had played all year.that we would have made. A lot of third downs and most likely more RZ tds.

If so then you realize that they are reasons.
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[Northman]

They are reasons not excuses. Only the hard core do not see it for what it is. 60% of last years oline is not what it was last year. The NFL leading sacker is on IR all year the guy that was coming on strong to repalce him is a heartbeat away from IR. The big back went on IR before being able to show his stuff.

Y'all need to realize those are valid REASONs for being where we are today.

Is there any doubt in anyones minds that if the above folks had played all year.that we would have made. A lot of third downs and most likely more RZ tds.

If so then you realize that they are reasons.
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I will say again, nowhere in that article did Ellis talk about using those as excuses. He is saying he and bowlen EXPECT McD to win the rest of the season and to turn it around. Nowhere in there did he say "well, McD will get another year because we've had some injuries this year". Its never mentioned in there and says they have confidence that McD will turn it around. While you might use those injuries as a crutch thats not what is being said here by Ellis and Bowlen.

[Lonestar]

Your on crack!
I and 99% of the bronco fans here would absolutely love to have a team just like BALT, since they won the SB in 2000, have consistently been in the play-offs or at least putting a team that is in hunt on the field for its fans.

Has BAL got their ass kicked in ever playoff game they played in since 1999. Save one when we beat NE. But then the next week got an ass whipping.
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[Lonestar]

well shit, why didn't you say so in the first place?

now your defense-to-the-death of joshy makes perfect sense!

:lol:



hehe. . . sorry JR, but you walked riiiight inta that one. . .

I'd rather not go to the play offs and hope we get a break. Opposed to going to them and kicking some one elses ass.
Lucking out means nada to me.

Call me old fashioned but I'd rather earn it than get a freebie.
Winning with a fluke play is cheap.

So I will wait till we are playing great ball.

I've seen enough beat downs over 50+ years that I'd rather not see any more.

Has nothing to do with Josh or mike.
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[ChampWJ]

the pats oline was completly healthy in 08- 09 when moroney rushed for less then 4 ypc under josh

Mcdaniels was not with the Patriots in 09 and Moroney played a whopping 3 games in 08 due to injury.

[Lonestar]

Mike Shanahan as head coach of the Broncos only posted five seasons of .500 or below, and officially only posted two seasons below that standard. 138 wins and 86 losses, only seven seasons did he post under 10 wins in a season his other seven seasons he had 10 plus.

I'm not saying it was always great...but credit him what he's earned Jr, at least do that much! As for most of us, we don't agree with you, as I pointed out earlier...it's not about winning it all every year as it once was, it's about remaining competitive to stay in your venue, to keep the seats filled and products distributing off the shelf rather then collecting dust. Win? Yes, but win now whether or not it be 10 wins and a short playoff berth or 13 and a Super Bowl championship.

Sure mikey did well. Had a winning % whule in DEN and he deserves credit for that. But take those first 4 years out and his % is not the same either.

Can you truthfully say after the HOFers retired this team played at close to the same levels. Dominating teams in the first half?

I was not impressed and to win only ONE play off game since those SB teams. And to get our ass kicked at home twice is unacceptable.

Do I want a winning team? Certainly I do but not at the expense of one and done in the playoffs.
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[Lonestar]

This is priceless coming from the guy who played a joke about Jrwiz dying.

FWIW it was not his idea and I twisted his arm into doing it.

It was my sense of humor not his.


FWIW
I'm also dealing with a mother with altzheimers and I also found your comment tasteless.

Especially towards the guy that has done so much for DEN.
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[Ravage!!!]

weird how Mike is held to a different standard than every other coach. The Shanahan detractors will try to show you his record without his HoF QB. yet , what other coach do we do this with? I know I have. I know I've posted the results. I know that Mike Shanahan's record AFTER losing Elway is greater than any coach, OR franchise, 10 years after (and in some cases prior since the QB is still playing) losing a HoF QB. Yet thats NOT GOOD ENOUGH. No. Suprpassing Great, all-time, HOF Coaches with his winning % is just not good enough. Going back to the AFC Championship game, just 7 years after losing tons of talent, while getting ridiculed for bringing in the Browncos, is over looked. Its comments and put-downs of his record AFTER Elway are absurd since NONE of the other franchises (sans Miami since they went very few years between Griese and Marino) have reached the number of games won, nor the winning percentage, that Shanahan obtained..... NOT counting his Elway years.

[Ravage!!!]

I have had a grandmother die from alzheimer's, and didn't find anything wrong with the joke. Some want to use the "take that back" approach to gain "hand" in their arguments since its supposed to make a person back down as if they did something wrong.

[Lonestar]

I will say again, nowhere in that article did Ellis talk about using those as excuses. He is saying he and bowlen EXPECT McD to win the rest of the season and to turn it around. Nowhere in there did he say "well, McD will get another year because we've had some injuries this year". Its never mentioned in there and says they have confidence that McD will turn it around. While you might use those injuries as a crutch thats not what is being said here by Ellis and Bowlen.

IIRC there was no edirect quote that they did not understand the reasons of injuries, rookies, bad bounces and NO depth.

Unless I missed it in there somewhere.

Now I would expect them say they want to win. What the hell else could they say? We are packing it in.
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[SOCALORADO.]

Has BAL got their ass kicked in ever playoff game they played in since 1999. Save one when we beat NE. But then the next week got an ass whipping.
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Dude you ARE on crack.:eek:

[Northman]

FWIW it was not his idea and I twisted his arm into doing it.

It was my sense of humor not his.


FWIW
I'm also dealing with a mother with altzheimers and I also found your comment tasteless.

Especially towards the guy that has done so much for DEN.
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He played along with it so he is easily just as guilty. Secondly, it wasnt my comment but Dog's. Furthermore, considering how much crap you personally spew at other coaches and former players your in no position to judge anyone.

[KCL]

This is priceless coming from the guy who played a joke about Jrwiz dying.

No shit and I don't believe dog meant that as anything mean spirited.

[KCL]

He played along with it so he is easily just as guilty


I agree...he created the thread.

[Jake Klug]

weird how Mike is held to a different standard than every other coach. The Shanahan detractors will try to show you his record without his HoF QB. yet , what other coach do we do this with? I know I have. I know I've posted the results. I know that Mike Shanahan's record AFTER losing Elway is greater than any coach, OR franchise, 10 years after (and in some cases prior since the QB is still playing) losing a HoF QB. Yet thats NOT GOOD ENOUGH. No. Suprpassing Great, all-time, HOF Coaches with his winning % is just not good enough. Going back to the AFC Championship game, just 7 years after losing tons of talent, while getting ridiculed for bringing in the Browncos, is over looked. Its comments and put-downs of his record AFTER Elway are absurd since NONE of the other franchises (sans Miami since they went very few years between Griese and Marino) have reached the number of games won, nor the winning percentage, that Shanahan obtained..... NOT counting his Elway years.

I like these Patriot hipsters who trash the old system while embracing Josh's system. Theyll speak in loose generalizations and suggest Shanahan's system is dated or somehow deficient. Well, whats interesting is that, whilst eveyone knows the old system was awesome for running the ball, it also accommodated passing. The Patriot hipsters will often overlook that Denver's old system has produced 4 different pro-bowl QBs since Elway (Griese in 2000, Plummer in 2005, Cutler in 2008, and Schaub in 2009). Notice how two of those QBs have become pro-bowlers since 2007, which is a year all the Patriot hipsters are tethered to. If you want to look at which offense is more user friendly, balanced, and has withstood the test of time, its obviously the old one. The current one is buckling under the weight of its own hipsterness.

[Dzone]

^This forum has been a good outlet for the mounting frustration. Part of being a fan and loving your team is getting irritated and voicing your opinion...we dont begrudge your right to express your admiration for Mcdaniels either, if you so choose

[Superchop 7]

The rise of power with Joe Ellis is directly proportional to the demise of the Broncos.

This guy is speaking because Pat has his foot up his ass for all the stupid decisions he has made.

He did the same thing to Sundquist, making him speak publicly for his lousy drafts.

[dogfish]

They are reasons not excuses. Only the hard core do not see it for what it is. 60% of last years oline is not what it was last year. The NFL leading sacker is on IR all year the guy that was coming on strong to repalce him is a heartbeat away from IR. The big back went on IR before being able to show his stuff.

Y'all need to realize those are valid REASONs for being where we are today.

Is there any doubt in anyones minds that if the above folks had played all year.that we would have made. A lot of third downs and most likely more RZ tds.

If so then you realize that they are reasons.
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who? you mean the one-trick pony, useless against the run, 1/3 of a linebacker that you kept saying wasn't worth the money? our bigger, tougher, smarter, faster, more physical TEAM certainly shouldn't need that little midget pygmy, right?

:noidea:



;)

[dogfish]

This is priceless coming from the guy who played a joke about Jrwiz dying.

hilarious, right? that was in such exceptionally good taste. . .

:lol:




Secondly, it wasnt my comment but Dog's.

enh, i blame you. . .


i mean, they already are, i may as well, right?

:laugh:


FTR, IF it at some point comes out that bowlen is suffering from actual, serious dementia, then naturally i will wish him all the best. . . but it was just printed in the DPO that his health is fine, so i'm going by that. . .

[arapaho2]

Oline/Oline coach?

ding ding ding
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who thought he should fix an already good oline...who brought in the oline coach?....ding ding ding:lol:

[arapaho2]

how'd brady do that year? :coffee:
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:listen: was we talkin brady?....dont think so....we was talking moroney

[arapaho2]

They are reasons not excuses. Only the hard core do not see it for what it is. 60% of last years oline is not what it was last year. The NFL leading sacker is on IR all year the guy that was coming on strong to repalce him is a heartbeat away from IR. The big back went on IR before being able to show his stuff.

Y'all need to realize those are valid REASONs for being where we are today.

Is there any doubt in anyones minds that if the above folks had played all year.that we would have made. A lot of third downs and most likely more RZ tds.

If so then you realize that they are reasons.
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wait... so the injured doom who you thought was a huge waste of money to re-sign...because he was a "ONE TRICK PONY" and swore we would be a better defnse witout him.... is a leading cause of why we suck now!!!:lol::lol:

and i cant see how 14 solo tackles, 1.5 sacks...0 ff...0 pd...was comeing on strong....oh wait he was a mcd pick right:lol:


your excuses have no end do they JR

[Northman]

wait... so the injured doom who you thought was a huge waste of money to re-sign...because he was a "ONE TRICK PONY" and swore we would be a better defnse witout him.... is a leading cause of why we suck now!!!:lol::lol:

and i cant see how 14 solo tackles, 1.5 sacks...0 ff...0 pd...was comeing on strong....oh wait he was a mcd pick right:lol:


your excuses have no end do they JR


:lol::lol::lol::lol: