PDA

View Full Version : Rookie Qbs Who've Started Over Solid Veterans



NorCalBronco7
11-02-2010, 09:23 PM
Ive talked about this in another thread but I think it deserves its own.

Its a great question because the phantom QB controversy thats going on in this forum and Bronco nation doesnt exist.

If a team has a solid veteran and a rookie Qb, the team ALWAYS goes with the solid veteran.

Can anybody think of a time that they didn't?

BroncoWave
11-02-2010, 09:30 PM
Eli Manning over Kurt Warner

NorCalBronco7
11-02-2010, 09:33 PM
Eli Manning over Kurt Warner

Before Warner got benched in favor of Eli in 2004, he had 10 tds and 16 ints over the 3 previous injury ridden seasons. Warner is a decorated future HOF, but at that time in his career many experts thought he was over and washed up. Warner was far from a solid player at that point in his career.

Bosco
11-02-2010, 09:37 PM
I can't think of any off the type of my head.

Northman
11-02-2010, 09:45 PM
Ive talked about this in another thread but I think it deserves its own.

Its a great question because the phantom QB controversy thats going on in this forum and Bronco nation doesnt exist.

If a team has a solid veteran and a rookie Qb, the team ALWAYS goes with the solid veteran.

Can anybody think of a time that they didn't?


Well, first you have to define what you believe a solid veteran to be.

Secondly, you then have to look into how the team is performing in the w/l column with those solid vets.

For instance,

As BTB pointed out Eli took over for Warner who is a future HOF'r. Another example is Cutler coming in for Plummer who had a solid w/l record in Denver. So i think first you should define the parameters of what you believe to be a solid veteran.

NorCalBronco7
11-02-2010, 09:54 PM
Well, first you have to define what you believe a solid veteran to be.

Secondly, you then have to look into how the team is performing in the w/l column with those solid vets.

For instance,

As BTB pointed out Eli took over for Warner who is a future HOF'r. Another example is Cutler coming in for Plummer who had a solid w/l record in Denver. So i think first you should define the parameters of what you believe to be a solid veteran.

When I say solid I mean a player with a good TD/Int ratio, decent QBR around 80. Sometimes QBRs are dumb, but for the most part they tell the story.

Like Orton for instance last year had 21tds/12ints 86 qbr. Thats solid. Not great, but not bad by any means.

W/L is a team stat, but they can tell part of the story sometimes. Definitly not all it though.

They also have to be a solid player when they got benched. Not 6 years before they got benched and 10 years after. They have to be playing solid at the time.

Plummer wasnt a solid Qb when he got benched. Thats why Cutler was rushed in.

Northman
11-02-2010, 09:58 PM
When I say solid I mean a player with a good TD/Int ratio, decent QBR around 80. Sometimes QBRs are dumb, but for the most part they tell the story.

Like Orton for instance last year had 21tds/12ints 86 qbr. Thats solid. Not great, but not bad by any means.





W/L is a team stat, but they can tell part of the story sometimes. Definitly not all it though.

Plummer wasnt a solid Qb when he got bench. Thats why Cutler was rushed in.


Ok, so for you its not so much how the team performing or if the team isnt competing for a division title/playoffs. Its just whether or not the veteran QB is playing well correct?

Ravage!!!
11-02-2010, 10:00 PM
Before Warner got benched in favor of Eli in 2004, he had 10 tds and 16 ints over the 3 previous injury ridden seasons. Warner is a decorated future HOF, but at that time in his career many experts thought he was over and washed up. Warner was far from a solid player at that point in his career.

Make up your mind. Wht is a solid vet?

Also, how many teams that you can think of, spend 1st round picks on a QB that have a "solid vet" to be the starter, going by the parameters that you are laying forth. Warner had always BEEN solid..so now he's not solid based on your 7 game stats. FAR from being solid? Really? He then led the Cardinals to the Super Bowl. Hardly call that a player that is FAR from being solid.

NorCalBronco7
11-02-2010, 10:02 PM
Ok, so for you its not so much how the team performing or if the team isnt competing for a division title/playoffs. Its just whether or not the veteran QB is playing well correct?

The veteran was playing well (like Orton currently is 12tds/5ints) at the time he was benched, correct.

Northman
11-02-2010, 10:05 PM
The veteran was playing well (like Orton currently is 12tds/5ints) at the time he was benched, correct.


Ok, i can see that.

Now my question for you is since the team around Kyle isnt up to snuff to make the playoffs this year why leave him in? Wouldnt it make more sense to sideline him in a pointless season and try and keep him healthy to make another run next year when McD has had a chance to get the youth some experience and add more pieces?

NorCalBronco7
11-02-2010, 10:06 PM
Make up your mind. Wht is a solid vet?

Also, how many teams that you can think of, spend 1st round picks on a QB that have a "solid vet" to be the starter, going by the parameters that you are laying forth. Warner had always BEEN solid..so now he's not solid based on your 7 game stats. FAR from being solid? Really? He then led the Cardinals to the Super Bowl. Hardly call that a player that is FAR from being solid.

Im talking about the veteran playing solid (like orton is right now) the time the rookie got the call.

NorCalBronco7
11-02-2010, 10:13 PM
Ok, i can see that.

Now my question for you is since the team around Kyle isnt up to snuff to make the playoffs this year why leave him in? Wouldnt it make more sense to sideline him in a pointless season and try and keep him healthy to make another run next year when McD has had a chance to get the youth some experience and add more pieces?

It would make the most sense to let Tebow learn and develop under Orton this year and thats what all teams do when faced with this situation. Again, can you name a time were a team didnt?

It would make no sense to experiment with Tebow this year to "see what we got" and then next year start Orton. That would really stunt the growth Orton is currently having at the expense of a rookie Qb thats wont be a better option the next year anyway, IMO. The Broncos will not play musical chairs with their Qbs if they dont need to. Tebow should only start onces he completely ready or if theres no better option (Orton is right now). Tebow will start, just not anytime soon.

BroncoWave
11-02-2010, 10:22 PM
Orton is not our future. Who ****ing cares if we stunt his growth? Also, to think his growth will somehow be stunted by missing 8 games is one of the dumbest things I have ever read.

Ravage!!!
11-02-2010, 10:23 PM
So what determines solid? Our 3rd down conversions aren't solid. OUr wins are not solid. Our scoring isn't solid. If you are talking putting up big stats while throwing the ball 50 times "solid" then thats not much to base on.

But thats not really the situation. Many teams have brought their rookie QB in (especially ones that were taken in the first round) once the season was failing. Why? Because they draft the QB to be the starter. You don't spend a 1st round pick on a QB if you don't plan for him to be the starter.

That being said.... Orton's play this year doesn't matter if it doesn't make a serious run in the playoffs. The plan wasn't for him to be the future of this franchise.

So a better comparison question would be... How many rookie first round pick QBs have come in late in the season to start for their respective teams?

Northman
11-02-2010, 10:25 PM
It would make no sense to experiment with Tebow this year to "see what we got" and then next year start Orton. That would really stunt the growth Orton is currently having at the expense of a rookie Qb thats wont be a better option the next year anyway, IMO.

Im not sure how Orton would regress in growth by sitting down for some games. If anything, sitting down could help him a little as well and allow him to somewhat tutor Tebow a bit from the sidelines.


The Broncos will not play musical chairs with their Qbs if they dont need to. Tebow should only start onces he completely ready or if theres no better option (Orton is right now). Tebow will start, just not anytime soon.

Orton is the better option at what though? He wont be playing for anything and he faces the serious risk of getting injured in what has become meaningless games.

Medford Bronco
11-02-2010, 10:27 PM
So what determines solid? Our 3rd down conversions aren't solid. OUr wins are not solid. Our scoring isn't solid. If you are talking putting up big stats while throwing the ball 50 times "solid" then thats not much to base on.

But thats not really the situation. Many teams have brought their rookie QB in (especially ones that were taken in the first round) once the season was failing. Why? Because they draft the QB to be the starter. You don't spend a 1st round pick on a QB if you don't plan for him to be the starter.

That being said.... Orton's play this year doesn't matter if it doesn't make a serious run in the playoffs. The plan wasn't for him to be the future of this franchise.

So a better comparison question would be... How many rookie first round pick QBs have come in late in the season to start for their respective teams?

Our TDs are not solid
our red zone conversions are not solid

Orton puts up yards and not points.

far from great. slightly above average at best.

Medford Bronco
11-02-2010, 10:27 PM
Im not sure how Orton would regress in growth by sitting down for some games. If anything, sitting down could help him a little as well and allow him to somewhat tutor Tebow a bit from the sidelines.



Orton is the better option at what though? He wont be playing for anything and he faces the serious risk of getting injured in what has become meaningless games.

He must have him on his fantasy football team:lol:

Northman
11-02-2010, 10:29 PM
He must have him on his fantasy football team:lol:

I have him on my fantasy team! But i still dont understand how Kyle would regress by sitting down in meaningless games.

Medford Bronco
11-02-2010, 10:30 PM
I have him on my fantasy team! But i still dont understand how Kyle would regress by sitting down in meaningless games.

He would not

Kyle Orton is Jon Kitna

a Solid NFL starter at times but never going to set the world on fire
or win a Super Bowl, unless he has the 2000 Ravens Defense or 85 Bears D.

Ravage!!!
11-02-2010, 10:34 PM
If you have a first round QB sitting on the bench, who cares if the QB is playing "solid" if your team is losing? You keep the guy in if the team is winning, but we didn't spend a first round pick in a QB because we feel we have a stud QB. We spent a first round pick on a QB BECAUSE all we have is a "solid" QB. Safe, conservative.... is sure to do his best to throw few INTs.

We thought SO much of Orton's "solid" performances, that we used 4 picks to take TT. How many teams have done THAT?

Northman
11-02-2010, 10:36 PM
He would not

Kyle Orton is Jon Kitna

a Solid NFL starter at times but never going to set the world on fire
or win a Super Bowl, unless he has the 2000 Ravens Defense or 85 Bears D.

Im not going to sell Orton that short.

But im going to go back to something that Topscribe mentioned the other day and that was because of the youth on the Oline and because Orton isnt the most mobile of QB's (at least gracefully) he stands a big chance of being injured in what can be deemed useless games. Sure, he is playing great but why take the risk when he will most likely be our starter next year? As the year goes on and the weather gets worse it will only lead to more problems for an offense that cant run the ball so why take the risk? If Orton goes down wouldnt that be more detrimental to the team than a unproven rookie who is actually more mobile?

NorCalBronco7
11-02-2010, 10:55 PM
Orton is not our future. Who ****ing cares if we stunt his growth? Also, to think his growth will somehow be stunted by missing 8 games is one of the dumbest things I have ever read.

Ortons growth is important if he is going to start in 2011 which seems likely. Unless Tebow will be ready to start next year because he is a better Qb than Orton, the Broncos wouldnt start Tebow right now. Orton is the future, the immediate future, most likely not long term.


So what determines solid? Our 3rd down conversions aren't solid. OUr wins are not solid. Our scoring isn't solid. If you are talking putting up big stats while throwing the ball 50 times "solid" then thats not much to base on.

But thats not really the situation. Many teams have brought their rookie QB in (especially ones that were taken in the first round) once the season was failing. Why? Because they draft the QB to be the starter. You don't spend a 1st round pick on a QB if you don't plan for him to be the starter.

That being said.... Orton's play this year doesn't matter if it doesn't make a serious run in the playoffs. The plan wasn't for him to be the future of this franchise.

So a better comparison question would be... How many rookie first round pick QBs have come in late in the season to start for their respective teams?

3rd down conversions are much more difficult without a running game. 3rd and 7+ are difficult to convert. Orton is scoring and is 6th in Tds this year.


Im not sure how Orton would regress in growth by sitting down for some games. If anything, sitting down could help him a little as well and allow him to somewhat tutor Tebow a bit from the sidelines.


Orton is the better option at what though? He wont be playing for anything and he faces the serious risk of getting injured in what has become meaningless games.

And if Ortons the starter next year because Tebow isnt ready, go back to Orton? The Broncos wont let that happen. Tebow wont be the starter unless he earns it and right now he hasn't.

Orton has the risk of injury but he also has the chance to grow farther in the system and carry on the momentem to next year when Tebow most likely wont be ready.


Our TDs are not solid
our red zone conversions are not solid

Orton puts up yards and not points.

far from great. slightly above average at best.

Ortons 12 tds this year are solid. There as much as Tom Brady right now.

The Broncos would have a much better red zone % if he had any sort of a running game.








Have you guys already run out of examples?

KCL
11-02-2010, 11:02 PM
I don't know but is there a rookie out there that can take over for Favre?
Somebody..please step up to the plate!!!

NorCalBronco7
11-02-2010, 11:02 PM
Im not going to sell Orton that short.

But im going to go back to something that Topscribe mentioned the other day and that was because of the youth on the Oline and because Orton isnt the most mobile of QB's (at least gracefully) he stands a big chance of being injured in what can be deemed useless games. Sure, he is playing great but why take the risk when he will most likely be our starter next year? As the year goes on and the weather gets worse it will only lead to more problems for an offense that cant run the ball so why take the risk? If Orton goes down wouldnt that be more detrimental to the team than a unproven rookie who is actually more mobile?

The Broncos wouldnt start Tebow because the oline is playing terrible. Thats actually a better reason not to start Tebow because when hes learning how to play the game the worst thing for him would be relentless pressure. That would be very bad circumstances for any rookie Qb.

NorCalBronco7
11-02-2010, 11:22 PM
Hey guys dont crash google looking for an answer. Conserve bandwidth!







:lol:

Northman
11-02-2010, 11:25 PM
And if Ortons the starter next year because Tebow isnt ready, go back to Orton? The Broncos wont let that happen. Tebow wont be the starter unless he earns it and right now he hasn't.

Ahhh, so that is why you flipped out about my thread. No no no. Im only talking about putting in Tebow for the rest of THIS year. Then Orton can start the following season when there are more pieces in place to make a run. I never said that Tebow would start this year and then be the starter in 2011. Im only talking this year.


Orton has the risk of injury but he also has the chance to grow farther in the system and carry on the momentem to next year when Tebow most likely wont be ready.

Dont you think in that the risk of injury (considering how bad the Oline has played) outweighs the supposed loss of momentum going into next year? If Orton goes down with a serious injury we have no choice but to go with Tebow who will not have gained ANY experience in a live game enviroment.

Ravage!!!
11-02-2010, 11:38 PM
I'm not looking anything up.

Myquestion is more valid. We aren't a winning team. I dont' care if Orton is playing well. THats not the problem. Thats not the point.

Tebow is the supposed future of this franchise. Orton's play is irrelevant if we aren't making the playoffs.

Don't tell me how "good" and "solid" Orton is playing if he cant' convert third downs. Our RZscoring is bad. Our TEAM is bad. If we aren't winning, if we aren't going to the playoffs, then its just lost experience for the FUTURE of this team.

Your question doesn't apply to every tteam. THIS situation doesn't apply to every team. YOu keep wanting to change the parameters to what fits YOUR point, but ignores all other points.

Even if there are NO examples that fit your tiny criteria... it doesn't matter. Doesn't matter what you think and it doesn't matter what we think. However, our OPINION is that it would be better to get Tebow some playing time because THIS TEAM, isn't going anywhere. Orton playing "solid" or not. Who gives a rats ass how the QB is playing if we are losing and he isn't considered the future? :lol:

NorCalBronco7
11-02-2010, 11:38 PM
Ahhh, so that is why you flipped out about my thread. No no no. Im only talking about putting in Tebow for the rest of THIS year. Then Orton can start the following season when there are more pieces in place to make a run. I never said that Tebow would start this year and then be the starter in 2011. Im only talking this year.



Dont you think in that the risk of injury (considering how bad the Oline has played) outweighs the supposed loss of momentum going into next year? If Orton goes down with a serious injury we have no choice but to go with Tebow who will not have gained ANY experience in a live game enviroment.

It would make zero sense to have a plan to bench Tebow after he was already oppointed the starter. The Broncos would never do that and I cant think of any team, ever, who went through with that plan. I could be wrong on that, but I dont think I am.

The chemisty and growth that Orton has with the team right now is more important than the chance of injury. Much, much more important. This is Ortons team right and next year and the Broncos wouldnt fringe on the progress hes made to get a rookie experience who isnt even slated to start the next year.

Reguardless, the scenario hasnt played out before (rookie over solid vet), so what hopes do you have that the Broncos will make it happen?

Ravage!!!
11-02-2010, 11:40 PM
I'll say it. If TebowDOES get starting time this season....He'll be the starter next season. That was the plan. Thats why he was drafted.

BroncoWave
11-02-2010, 11:46 PM
I'll say it. If TebowDOES get starting time this season....He'll be the starter next season. That was the plan. Thats why he was drafted.

Agreed, once McD goes Tebow I don't see him going back, unless he is just so bad he doesn't have a choice, which I don't think he will be.

Northman
11-02-2010, 11:58 PM
Reguardless, the scenario hasnt played out before (rookie over solid vet), so what hopes do you have that the Broncos will make it happen?

Hope has nothing to do with it really. I look at it as a season lost and would like to see what the kid has. Thats all it really comes down too. I know what Orton can do, i want to see what Tebow can do.

NorCalBronco7
11-03-2010, 12:08 AM
I'm not looking anything up.

Myquestion is more valid. We aren't a winning team. I dont' care if Orton is playing well. THats not the problem. Thats not the point.

Tebow is the supposed future of this franchise. Orton's play is irrelevant if we aren't making the playoffs.

Don't tell me how "good" and "solid" Orton is playing if he cant' convert third downs. Our RZscoring is bad. Our TEAM is bad. If we aren't winning, if we aren't going to the playoffs, then its just lost experience for the FUTURE of this team.

Your question doesn't apply to every tteam. THIS situation doesn't apply to every team. YOu keep wanting to change the parameters to what fits YOUR point, but ignores all other points.

Even if there are NO examples that fit your tiny criteria... it doesn't matter. Doesn't matter what you think and it doesn't matter what we think. However, our OPINION is that it would be better to get Tebow some playing time because THIS TEAM, isn't going anywhere. Orton playing "solid" or not. Who gives a rats ass how the QB is playing if we are losing and he isn't considered the future? :lol:


Your so concered about the future, right? Well, who do you think is going to start at Qb for the 2011 Broncos. I'll give you a clue, its going to be the best Qb on the team at that time. Do you think Tebow is going to be a better Qb than Orton next year, even if he gets the experience right now? Dont comeback with "well lets find out"

The red zone and 3rd down criticism somehow only attributed to Orton is extremely weak. The Broncos dead last rushing attack makes scoring in the redzone very difficult and converting 3rd and 7+ almost impossible. These are not Ortons fault.

As far as saying Orton somehow responsible for the Broncos record is rediculous considering the passing attack is the only strength of the team. What would the Broncos record be without Orton? Almost surely worse.

Me presenting the question of have there ever never been a rookie thats started over a solid Qb is very basic and is the scenario that will unfold if Tebow starts right now, is it not? If you think Orton isnt at minimum a solid Qb then you haven't been watching many Broncos games this year. Sure hes not been great and has missed some opportunities, but considering the Broncos dead last rushing attack and the absense of a defense, his better than most TD/Int ratio and high yardage, that Neckbeards at least faired well?

Also, you did right to stop looking for examples because there is none.

Ravage!!!
11-03-2010, 12:10 AM
Reguardless, the scenario hasnt played out before (rookie over solid vet), so what hopes do you have that the Broncos will make it happen?

Seems this is what its all about with you on this. Trying to prove that you are "right" onwhat the outcome will be? Really?

Thats not really the point of expressing an opinion. I don't THINK that McD will put Tebow in before its mathmatically impossible for the Broncos to get into the playoffs. That doesn't mean that my opinion is we should just start him now.

See, its not about just "thinking" "saying" what we might know what the coach will do. Thats not what expressing your opinions on what we think we would LIKE to see happen. Doesn't matter if Orton is playing ok football. He's not lighting the world on fire, and he certainly isn't winning games. He rarely wins unless the defense holds the opposing teams to 10 or less points in the second half.

It has to do with our OPINION that the season is already lost. Doesn't matter if McD feels that way. In fact, I expect him NOT to feel that way. But WE feel taht the reality is taht the season is lost. We WANT Tebow to get some playing time since we spent so many valued picks to take this guy HIGHER than we should have. We already have him, lets see what he's got. After all, what we ARE doing, isn't working.

So even though you are making this into a "lets see who's right" debate... thats not what its about. As North just said.... we already know what Orton is. WeKNOW what he can do. Lets accept the season for what it is, and lets find out what Tebow can do and what HE is. Thats our opinion on the situation of our team.

Orton is NOT the future of this team, Tebow is supposed to be.

I would however, make the bet that Tebow gets starting time this season once we are eliminated from the playoffs. I'll also make another bet by saying you'll tell us that Orton is no longer "playing solid" when that time comes.

Ravage!!!
11-03-2010, 12:24 AM
Your so concered about the future, right? Well, who do you think is going to start at Qb for the 2011 Broncos. I'll give you a clue, its going to be the best Qb on the team at that time. Do you think Tebow is going to be a better Qb than Orton next year, even if he gets the experience right now? Dont comeback with "well lets find out"

The red zone and 3rd down criticism somehow only attributed to Orton is extremely weak. The Broncos dead last rushing attack makes scoring in the redzone very difficult and converting 3rd and 7+ almost impossible. These are not Ortons fault.

As far as saying Orton somehow responsible for the Broncos record is rediculous considering the passing attack is the only strength of the team. What would the Broncos record be without Orton? Almost surely worse.

Me presenting the question of have there ever never been a rookie thats started over a solid Qb is very basic and is the scenario that will unfold if Tebow starts right now, is it not? If you think Orton isnt at minimum a solid Qb then you haven't been watching many Broncos games this year. Sure hes not been great and has missed some opportunities, but considering the Broncos dead last rushing attack and the absense of a defense, his better than most TD/Int ratio and high yardage, that Neckbeards at least faired well?

Also, you did right to stop looking for examples because there is none.


You'vve ignored everything.

One.. you want to take all the responsibilities out of Orton's hands.

EVERY team has to convert 3rd and 7s. Not many teams run the ball on 3rd and 7... that meand that EVERY defense is playing against the PASS on 3rd and 7. Knowing that our team is going to pass on 3rd and 7, is absolutely NO excuse for the lack of execution. Keep trying to take all the responsibility off his hands. If we can't rely on our QB to conver on 3rd and 7, what are we asking the QB to do? Hit the easy passes when the defense isn't looking for the pass? Please. That is REALLY a lame lame excuse that just holds NO water. Teams all over the NFL pass the ball when the other team is expecting pass. This is a passing league, and we certainly know that not every team has 3rd and short on every series.

Also.... read this carefully. I have NEVER said that he's"responsible" for our record. However, since you haven't been around her much.. I'm going to fill you in. Its been VERY well documented that the QB position is judged on wins and losses...... NOT stats. This was a discussion that was WELL covered with past QBs. That doesn't change now that Orton is the guy behind center. If you aren't winning, then you are losing. Fantasy stats doesn't get the team more W's in the column. Take all the responsibility off him that you want....but it doesn't take away from the fact that as SOON as our defense stopped shutting out the opposing offenses, we stopped winning. You can NOT take that completely off the QBs shoulders. Sorry, just not going to happen. Orton is VERY conservative. When the field shortens down near the endzone, windows get smaller and lanes get shorter. Not much room for mistakes and Orton's mentality is to be safe... TOO safe... and thus tries to hit the passes that ar safe rather than gets into the endzone. If you don't think that is SOME of the problem.... well....

You keep trying to put phrases in my mouth. I've never said that Orton hasn't played fair/well/solid. I've said the opposite. I've said he's played well... and isn't the "problem" to the team...... although can very much be considered A problem to the team. But just because he's playing solid, doesn't excuse him from responsibilities.... and his "solid" play isn't WINNING games. He's been bad in teh 4th quarter,and continues to throw away drives with mistakes late in games. All his fault? Nope. But lets not relieve him completely. Point is, no matter what he's doing, we aren't winning. We are a BAD team. We spent a ton of picks for a QB taht is sitting the bench, and HE is supposed to be the future of this team when we know that Orton is NOT thefuture of this team.

If we've considered this season to be over (those of us that want to see Tebow get experience)... then its not a wrong opinion (again,there can't be a wrong opinion)..... to feel that Tebow shouldn't be getting valuable experience while he CAN in a season that means nothing. If he then goes into next year and can not beat out Orton, then we can't say the best player isn't on the field. However, if he CAN use this experience and gain, and then CAN beat out Orton next season... the team is already better.

This season is history in my eyes. I just want to finally have some reason to watch the Broncos play and see if Tebow is going to be any good.

Northman
11-03-2010, 12:29 AM
Your so concered about the future, right? Well, who do you think is going to start at Qb for the 2011 Broncos. I'll give you a clue, its going to be the best Qb on the team at that time.

Great point. So your perfectly fine with Tebow starting next year if he out performs Orton in TC right? Or Quinn if it comes down to that?

Now, your on record saying that if Orton gets pulled for Tebow the rest of the season he will regress right? Now, lets say McD doesnt pull Orton after the bye week but Orton shatters his ankle and is done anyway. If McD says that Orton is the starter next year do you still think Orton would have regressed even though he wasnt removed by choice?

The only reason i ask this is because i find it kind of interesting that i would have more confidence in Orton being just fine sitting the rest of the year than you would be and you seem to be a bigger Orton fan that i am. Dont you find that a bit odd that i would have more faith in him than you in that senario?

NorCalBronco7
11-03-2010, 12:33 AM
I'll say it. If TebowDOES get starting time this season....He'll be the starter next season. That was the plan. Thats why he was drafted.

It would be a huge gamble to project Tebow as the 2011 starting QB over Orton. That fact is Orton is solid and a veteran, who has already proved that he can have success in McDaniels system. Tebow simply hasnt. Teams with these situations always go with the conservative approach and go with the sure thing.

Tebow wont start anytime this year anyways because teams dont start rookies over solid vets.


Hope has nothing to do with it really. I look at it as a season lost and would like to see what the kid has. Thats all it really comes down too. I know what Orton can do, i want to see what Tebow can do.

And I completely understand where you are coming from. Really I do. Id like to see what the kids got and if he is infact capable of being the starting Qb for the Denver Broncos. I want to know too.

But I understand that Tebow most likely wont be ready next season, and even if he is, there is no way he would be better than Orton even with the experience of the rest of the year. It would an enormous gamble, and Im sure the Broncos are not projecting Tebow to be better than Orton next year. Thats why it would be silly to start him now.

Lancane
11-03-2010, 12:47 AM
Everyone has valid points, and for the record...I don't see Orton being pulled in favor of Tebow anytime soon, unless McDaniels thinks it will boost his fervor with the fandom. However, I would not be surprised if Tebow plays more in the final four games of the season, after all, it would give him experience in regards to the speed of the game at the pro level.

As to who is the starter next year, that is a whole other discussion because let's face it, Tebow will be getting called for more and more next year, if there is a football season...but, McDaniels will not be allowed to have four fruitless years and sit a first round quarterback for the entirety of his tenure...Bowlen will not put up with that, it costs too much for that to be how this pans out. McDaniels gambled his career on Tebow, thus far his gambling on other areas of the team has been nothing short of idiotic and unpromising, eventually he has to pull the lever on the slot machine to see if he has a winner.

NorCalBronco7
11-03-2010, 01:18 AM
You'vve ignored everything.

One.. you want to take all the responsibilities out of Orton's hands.

EVERY team has to convert 3rd and 7s. Not many teams run the ball on 3rd and 7... that meand that EVERY defense is playing against the PASS on 3rd and 7. Knowing that our team is going to pass on 3rd and 7, is absolutely NO excuse for the lack of execution. Keep trying to take all the responsibility off his hands. If we can't rely on our QB to conver on 3rd and 7, what are we asking the QB to do? Hit the easy passes when the defense isn't looking for the pass? Please. That is REALLY a lame lame excuse that just holds NO water. Teams all over the NFL pass the ball when the other team is expecting pass. This is a passing league, and we certainly know that not every team has 3rd and short on every series.

Also.... read this carefully. I have NEVER said that he's"responsible" for our record. However, since you haven't been around her much.. I'm going to fill you in. Its been VERY well documented that the QB position is judged on wins and losses...... NOT stats. This was a discussion that was WELL covered with past QBs. That doesn't change now that Orton is the guy behind center. If you aren't winning, then you are losing. Fantasy stats doesn't get the team more W's in the column. Take all the responsibility off him that you want....but it doesn't take away from the fact that as SOON as our defense stopped shutting out the opposing offenses, we stopped winning. You can NOT take that completely off the QBs shoulders. Sorry, just not going to happen. Orton is VERY conservative. When the field shortens down near the endzone, windows get smaller and lanes get shorter. Not much room for mistakes and Orton's mentality is to be safe... TOO safe... and thus tries to hit the passes that ar safe rather than gets into the endzone. If you don't think that is SOME of the problem.... well....

You keep trying to put phrases in my mouth. I've never said that Orton hasn't played fair/well/solid. I've said the opposite. I've said he's played well... and isn't the "problem" to the team...... although can very much be considered A problem to the team. But just because he's playing solid, doesn't excuse him from responsibilities.... and his "solid" play isn't WINNING games. He's been bad in teh 4th quarter,and continues to throw away drives with mistakes late in games. All his fault? Nope. But lets not relieve him completely. Point is, no matter what he's doing, we aren't winning. We are a BAD team. We spent a ton of picks for a QB taht is sitting the bench, and HE is supposed to be the future of this team when we know that Orton is NOT thefuture of this team.

If we've considered this season to be over (those of us that want to see Tebow get experience)... then its not a wrong opinion (again,there can't be a wrong opinion)..... to feel that Tebow shouldn't be getting valuable experience while he CAN in a season that means nothing. If he then goes into next year and can not beat out Orton, then we can't say the best player isn't on the field. However, if he CAN use this experience and gain, and then CAN beat out Orton next season... the team is already better.

This season is history in my eyes. I just want to finally have some reason to watch the Broncos play and see if Tebow is going to be any good.

But some teams have to face 3rd and long much more than others. Usually teams that cant run the ball on 1st and 2nd down. Ive look all over the internet and I cant find any stats on the average yardage the Broncos have faced on 3rd down. Im positive the Broncos have one of the longest yards to go if not the longest yards to go on 3rd down in the entire NFL because of thier inability to run. Orton being asked to convert on third down when he has longer to go than most all teams is asking a lot and is highly contributing to his lack of success in that area.

As for Orton being to conservative, Im not sure if you watched many games this year. I would have definitly accepted this critizism last year, but not when Orton has been attacking every level of the field this year. Does Orton being #2 in 20+ yard passes and #1 in 40+ yard passes seem conservative to you? Its crazy, from what Ive seen from his game this year hes taking shots too much. Also Im not sure that Orton being #2 in total passing yards and low YAC from the Broncos WRs help your notion that Orton is too conservative. We must be watching 2 different Qbs.

Either way, the Tebow starting because the Broncos season is over disreguards Orton and the strides hes made this season. And if Orton is benched for Tebow, then Orton cant be expect to countinue to excell if hes not playing (only minimally, maybe, although he very could well regress). And if Orton is the Broncos Qb next year then he would have missed the opportunity to progress the rest of the season. The Broncos will not miss those opportuinities for Orton to grow the rest of the season because Tebow cant be counted on to lead the 2011 Broncos.

Ravage!!!
11-03-2010, 01:40 AM
Its easy to find the bigger windows between the 20s.... reverting back to the "conservative" Orton that we have always seen inside the 20 makes sense. He doesn't want to throw an INTs in the redzone, and the windows are tighter. Simply seeing that he tends to throw to the safe" throw down inside the redzone isn't a stretch, and CERTAINLY isn't some kind of SIGN that I'mnot watching the games. Perhaps you don't want to see it.

Also.. there is no stat that shows our 3rd down attempts are longer. Ifw e are moving the ball with the pass, and we've been having high pass completion %s, then there is no reason to believe that our 3rd down attempts are longer, and CERTAINLY doesn't hold water as to why our 3rd down conversion rate is only 27%. Honestly.... its as if you are REALLY stretching to MAKE excuses. First, our QB is a top performer in all these catagories. He's playing solid, he hits a high % of his passes... he does this, he does that... but when it counts............not happening. Like I said. He's playing "solid".. buthe's no world beater and we are LOSING. Period.

THere is no reason to believe that Tebow won't be starting as most 1st round rookieQBs do by the end of a losing season. It really makes NO sense NOT to start him. I don't buy into this "Orton isn't getting experience and will revert" junk. I think thats the BIGGEST stretch I've EVER heard on these boards, and I've heard a lot. Its silly.. I mean REALLY silly, to believe that Orton would 'regress" because he isn't playing the last games of the year. seriously. Its not like he's not going to have 7 months of offseason anyway. If anything... for Orton... it would keep him healthy for one of the very few times in his career.

NorCalBronco7
11-03-2010, 01:41 AM
Great point. So your perfectly fine with Tebow starting next year if he out performs Orton in TC right? Or Quinn if it comes down to that?

Now, your on record saying that if Orton gets pulled for Tebow the rest of the season he will regress right? Now, lets say McD doesnt pull Orton after the bye week but Orton shatters his ankle and is done anyway. If McD says that Orton is the starter next year do you still think Orton would have regressed even though he wasnt removed by choice?

The only reason i ask this is because i find it kind of interesting that i would have more confidence in Orton being just fine sitting the rest of the year than you would be and you seem to be a bigger Orton fan that i am. Dont you find that a bit odd that i would have more faith in him than you in that senario?

Look, I want whoevers the best Qb to start next year or anytime for that matter, whether it be Tebow, Orton, Quinn, Rex Grossman, Jamarcus Russel, IDK. Whoevers the best should play and by guaging McDaniels he seems to agree.

I believe if Orton does not start the rest of the year he will infact miss many opportunities to progress. The obvious risk of Orton playing out the rest of the season is injury, I get it. If Mcdaniels came out today in a press conference and said "Ortons the starting QB in 2011" then I would assume he would keep Orton in the rest of the season to progress in his system. If Orton then got injured for the season, he would regress, just like he would if hes never given the opportunity to start the rest of the season in the first place.

Its not that I dont have confience in Orton sitting on the bench the rest of the season and producing next year. Im sure hes more than capable of that. Its the missed opportunities Orton would have to progress in the system the rest of this year. If Orton is going to be the Broncos Qb next year, then I want him at his best. And that would be in finishing this year strong and overflowing to the next year. Tebow can wait for his chance and I can tell you nobodies ever claimed waiting to develop your future franchise Qb is a bad idea.

Ravage!!!
11-03-2010, 01:45 AM
Everyone has valid points, and for the record...I don't see Orton being pulled in favor of Orton anytime soon, unless McDaniels thinks it will boost his fervor with the fandom. However, I would not be surprised if Tebow plays more in the final four games of the season, after all, it would give him experience in regards to the speed of the game at the pro level.

As to who is the starter next year, that is a whole other discussion because let's face it, Tebow will be getting called for more and more next year, if there is a football season...but, McDaniels will not be allowed to have four fruitless years and sit a first round quarterback for the entirety of his tenure...Bowlen will not put up with that, it costs too much for that to be how this pans out. McDaniels gambled his career on Tebow, thus far his gambling on other areas of the team has been nothing short of idiotic and unpromising, eventually he has to pull the lever on the slot machine to see if he has a winner.

RARELY do you see a 1s round QB be sat down ofr more than one season.... IF that much. Too much invested, and there is a reason that QB was drafted to begin with. Orton is just NOT the guy you need to be your dynamic QB. We don't know if Tebow is (although I seriously have my doubts about his ability to be an NFL QB).

I just don't see any of this made-up negatives of starting Tebow that I'm reading from some. Orton regressing? :lol:

Its not an insult to Orton or his play. Its PURELY based on wanting to give the QB of the "future" some valued experience.

LoyalSoldier
11-03-2010, 02:08 AM
Everyone has valid points, and for the record...I don't see Orton being pulled in favor of Orton anytime soon, unless McDaniels thinks it will boost his fervor with the fandom. However, I would not be surprised if Tebow plays more in the final four games of the season, after all, it would give him experience in regards to the speed of the game at the pro level.

As to who is the starter next year, that is a whole other discussion because let's face it, Tebow will be getting called for more and more next year, if there is a football season...but, McDaniels will not be allowed to have four fruitless years and sit a first round quarterback for the entirety of his tenure...Bowlen will not put up with that, it costs too much for that to be how this pans out. McDaniels gambled his career on Tebow, thus far his gambling on other areas of the team has been nothing short of idiotic and unpromising, eventually he has to pull the lever on the slot machine to see if he has a winner.

You're right, I don't see Orton getting pulled for Orton either. Though then again I don't know how Orton can be the first and second string QB at the same time. :lol:

NorCalBronco7
11-03-2010, 02:11 AM
Its easy to find the bigger windows between the 20s.... reverting back to the "conservative" Orton that we have always seen inside the 20 makes sense. He doesn't want to throw an INTs in the redzone, and the windows are tighter. Simply seeing that he tends to throw to the safe" throw down inside the redzone isn't a stretch, and CERTAINLY isn't some kind of SIGN that I'mnot watching the games. Perhaps you don't want to see it.

Also.. there is no stat that shows our 3rd down attempts are longer. Ifw e are moving the ball with the pass, and we've been having high pass completion %s, then there is no reason to believe that our 3rd down attempts are longer, and CERTAINLY doesn't hold water as to why our 3rd down conversion rate is only 27%. Honestly.... its as if you are REALLY stretching to MAKE excuses. First, our QB is a top performer in all these catagories. He's playing solid, he hits a high % of his passes... he does this, he does that... but when it counts............not happening. Like I said. He's playing "solid".. buthe's no world beater and we are LOSING. Period.

THere is no reason to believe that Tebow won't be starting as most 1st round rookieQBs do by the end of a losing season. It really makes NO sense NOT to start him. I don't buy into this "Orton isn't getting experience and will revert" junk. I think thats the BIGGEST stretch I've EVER heard on these boards, and I've heard a lot. Its silly.. I mean REALLY silly, to believe that Orton would 'regress" because he isn't playing the last games of the year. seriously. Its not like he's not going to have 7 months of offseason anyway. If anything... for Orton... it would keep him healthy for one of the very few times in his career.

The 3rd and long deficiencies because of the Broncos lack of running game should be apparent to you. But since I cant factually back them up right now we'll have to wait til I find them and make your argument that "because the Broncos have a high completion % (when they dont) that there 3rd down and distance shouldnt be any longer than most" look dumb. Despite the obvious reason being the run game. Later.


Again, Ravage Ill ask you this one more time. You said "THere is no reason to believe that Tebow won't be starting as most 1st round rookieQBs do by the end of a losing season."

Name one instance, in the history of the NFL, of not just simply a 1st round Qb, but any rookie QB, starting at any point in the season over a veteran still producing? Just one.

If you cant answer that, then I wouldnt be so sure....

Lancane
11-03-2010, 02:14 AM
You're right, I don't see Orton getting pulled for Orton either. Though then again I don't know how Orton can be the first and second string QB at the same time. :lol:

Hahaha...Whoops, thanks for pointing that out!

LoyalSoldier
11-03-2010, 02:15 AM
Hahaha...Whoops, thanks for pointing that out!

Heh it happens to the best of us.

broncofaninfla
11-03-2010, 09:38 AM
With the current state of the offensive line, it's only a matter of time before Orton gets hurt and Tebow gets his reps.

I also think that Mcd might be forced to play Tebow is Denver continues to suck, Denver needs to finish this pathetic season with some sort of optimism. Maybe Tebwo can do that, maybe not.

GEM
11-03-2010, 10:55 AM
I have had to clean up some personal attacks and some political conversation out of here. Let's keep it on topic.

Thanks.

NorCalBronco7
11-03-2010, 02:31 PM
Everybodys got to be looking back in the 1930 by now to find examples. :lol:






No more "Start Tebow" threads till my question get answered!!!! Not even one!!!!

:salute:

GEM
11-03-2010, 02:45 PM
Everybodys got to be looking back in the 1930 by now to find examples. :lol:






No more "Start Tebow" threads till my question get answered!!!! Not even one!!!!

:salute:

Just keep this in mind....You have no right to say who posts what. You have the right to keep your ass out of it if you can't post respectfully to those that do post in it.

People can and will post the threads they want to post. You can answer them, but if you continue to answer in a disrespectful or attacking manner, you will continue to get messages from moderators.

Just an FYI.

NorCalBronco7
11-03-2010, 03:01 PM
Ok.

Lonestar
11-03-2010, 03:04 PM
I'm going vote if Josh thinks he is ready for some snaps, it is ok by me.

If he does not think he is ready that is aslo ok by me.

For all we know Orton has pay esclaters in the contract that he and the rest of the team may send messages that Pat is going cheap and they are not looking for their best play.

I swear sometimes this like a bunch of old narcisists worrying about nothing just babbling to hear themslves talk.

I think all the possible scenairos and ideas have been beat to death.

/close thread.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

NorCalBronco7
11-03-2010, 03:51 PM
I'm going vote if Josh thinks he is ready for some snaps, it is ok by me.

If he does not think he is ready that is aslo ok by me.

For all we know Orton has pay esclaters in the contract that he and the rest of the team may send messages that Pat is going cheap and they are not looking for their best play.

I swear sometimes this like a bunch of old narcisists worrying about nothing just babbling to hear themslves talk.

I think all the possible scenairos and ideas have been beat to death.

/close thread.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

And the question ask still has no answers......

:coffee:

claymore
11-03-2010, 03:53 PM
Kyle Orton is like the stimulus package. Lottsa yards and no results.

Northman
11-03-2010, 03:59 PM
Kyle Orton is like the stimulus package. Lottsa yards and no results.

:lol:

rcsodak
11-03-2010, 04:01 PM
Before Warner got benched in favor of Eli in 2004, he had 10 tds and 16 ints over the 3 previous injury ridden seasons. Warner is a decorated future HOF, but at that time in his career many experts thought he was over and washed up. Warner was far from a solid player at that point in his career.
Plus a #1 pick is slightly different than a #25. In pay and expectations.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

Krugan
11-03-2010, 04:02 PM
Ive talked about this in another thread but I think it deserves its own.

Its a great question because the phantom QB controversy thats going on in this forum and Bronco nation doesnt exist.

If a team has a solid veteran and a rookie Qb, the team ALWAYS goes with the solid veteran.

Can anybody think of a time that they didn't?

Seems not that long ago, the Broncos were 7-3, thats winning and stats arent the be all end all.

At about that point, with the playoffs still a pretty good chance of being found, the Broncos then coach started a rookie QB.

claymore
11-03-2010, 04:02 PM
:lol:

I stole that from PFT. I LOL'ed when I read that on the comments.

Northman
11-03-2010, 04:02 PM
Plus a #1 pick is slightly different than a #25. In pay and expectations.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

Tell that to Kyle Boller.

rcsodak
11-03-2010, 04:04 PM
Well, first you have to define what you believe a solid veteran to be.

Secondly, you then have to look into how the team is performing in the w/l column with those solid vets.

For instance,

As BTB pointed out Eli took over for Warner who is a future HOF'r. Another example is Cutler coming in for Plummer who had a solid w/l record in Denver. So i think first you should define the parameters of what you believe to be a solid veteran.
Or how desparate the coach is. Shanny was on the hot seat and prolly thought putting in his new boytoy would buy him some more time.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

Northman
11-03-2010, 04:07 PM
Or how desparate the coach is. Shanny was on the hot seat and prolly thought putting in his new boytoy would buy him some more time.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

Nah, Plummer was stinking up the joint so its understandable. However, i would take Plummer and his miserable numbers and winning ballgames over this garbage we are seeing this year.

GEM
11-03-2010, 04:11 PM
Seems not that long ago, the Broncos were 7-3, thats winning and stats arent the be all end all.

At about that point, with the playoffs still a pretty good chance of being found, the Broncos then coach started a rookie QB.

So Norcal....this point completely COMPLETELY deflates your argument. Can we move on from posting a request for an answer in every thread Tebow related and move on.

Kthxbai.

rcsodak
11-03-2010, 04:14 PM
Orton is not our future. Who ****ing cares if we stunt his growth? Also, to think his growth will somehow be stunted by missing 8 games is one of the dumbest things I have ever read.
but it sure as hell wont help his trade potential though, willit!
Either the 3qb's battle it out next yr and the loser with the most value gets traded, ala Philly, or KO gets traded between now and the draft. Either way, until the team is mathematically eliminated from the PO's, KO's staarting. IMO.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

Ravage!!!
11-03-2010, 04:15 PM
Nah, Plummer was stinking up the joint so its understandable. However, i would take Plummer and his miserable numbers and winning ballgames over this garbage we are seeing this year.

I don't see how Shanahan would be on any hotter of a seat than McD should be on. He went to the AFC Championship Game the year before and didn't spend 4 draft choices to move BACK into the first round to get a player that was expected to go in the 2nd or later!! :lol:

If ANYONE is in need of playing their "boytoy" to keep from being on the hot-seat, it would be McD.

rcsodak
11-03-2010, 04:19 PM
So what determines solid? Our 3rd down conversions aren't solid. OUr wins are not solid. Our scoring isn't solid. If you are talking putting up big stats while throwing the ball 50 times "solid" then thats not much to base on
But thats not really the situation. Many teams have brought their rookie QB in (especially ones that were taken in the first round) once the season was failing. Why? Because they draft the QB to be the starter. You don't spend a 1st round pick on a QB if you don't plan for him to be the starter
That being said.... Orton's play this year doesn't matter if it doesn't make a serious run in the playoffs. The plan wasn't for him to be the future of this franchise.
a better comparison question would be... How many rookie first round pick QBs have come in late in the season to start for their respective teams?
agree with some. But not all. It was rumored other teams were looking at TT late 1st/early 2nd. Could be he just got stuck at #25.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

Ravage!!!
11-03-2010, 04:24 PM
Everybodys got to be looking back in the 1930 by now to find examples. :lol:






No more "Start Tebow" threads till my question get answered!!!! Not even one!!!!

:salute:

Wait... first answer this:

how many coaches have traded away a pro-bowl QB, a pro-bowl and multiple 100 catch WR (both in their first 3 years of their career) only to then draft a WR and a QB in the first round of the next draft, only to lose 14 of their last 18 games ....and KEPT their job???

Can't come up with any?? :lol: Then I guess this goes to show you that this isn't your normal situation.. huh? :coffee:

rcsodak
11-03-2010, 04:25 PM
Im not going to sell Orton that short.

But im going to go back to something that Topscribe mentioned the other day and that was because of the youth on the Oline and because Orton isnt the most mobile of QB's (at least gracefully) he stands a big chance of being injured in what can be deemed useless games. Sure, he is playing great but why take the risk when he will most likely be our starter next year? As the year goes on and the weather gets worse it will only lead to more problems for an offense that cant run the ball so why take the risk? If Orton goes down wouldnt that be more detrimental to the team than a unproven rookie who is actually more mobile?
So put in a rookie who would more than likely get injured even more? The supposed heir? huh?
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

Northman
11-03-2010, 04:29 PM
So put in a rookie who would more than likely get injured even more? The supposed heir? huh?
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

You have to decide which means more RCS. You've publically stated that the expectations of Tebow arent that important so obviously going by your logic if Tebow gets hurt we lose nothing.

However, the way Orton is playing and as he has proven he can play i would say going by your logic again losing Orton is a bigger loss.

The one advantage for Tebow is his mobility compared to Orton so the chances of Tebow even getting hurt are far less than they are with a guy like Orton who has a history of being injured.

claymore
11-03-2010, 05:18 PM
but it sure as hell wont help his trade potential though, willit!
Either the 3qb's battle it out next yr and the loser with the most value gets traded, ala Philly, or KO gets traded between now and the draft. Either way, until the team is mathematically eliminated from the PO's, KO's staarting. IMO.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

we got a 4th for plummer so that puts the Orton market at a 5th rd draft pick. McD would trade that for NE's 6th round pick any way.

NorCalBronco7
11-03-2010, 05:57 PM
So Norcal....this point completely COMPLETELY deflates your argument. Can we move on from posting a request for an answer in every thread Tebow related and move on.

Kthxbai.

Because Plummer was 7-3 and got benched for his horrible play proves nothing my friend. Absolutley jack sqat.

Funny, where are your examples? Your probably just going keep repeating others who name Qbs who were playing crappy. Go job with your countiued failer of answering the question.


Wait... first answer this:

how many coaches have traded away a pro-bowl QB, a pro-bowl and multiple 100 catch WR (both in their first 3 years of their career) only to then draft a WR and a QB in the first round of the next draft, only to lose 14 of their last 18 games ....and KEPT their job???

Can't come up with any?? :lol: Then I guess this goes to show you that this isn't your normal situation.. huh? :coffee:

1 guy. Josh McDaniels!


What'd I win?!?!? :elefant:

GEM
11-03-2010, 06:00 PM
Changed threads huh? Is this the thread you run to when you get your ass handled in the other one?

NorCalBronco7
11-03-2010, 06:37 PM
Changed threads huh? Is this the thread you run to when you get your ass handled in the other one?

Still no legit examples out of you.

Im really surprised! :rolleyes:

LoyalSoldier
11-03-2010, 08:40 PM
How many times have I been killed in a volcano?
Does that mean it is physically impossible to die in a volcano?

How many times have I won the lottery?
Does that mean it is physically impossible for me to win the lotto?

How many times before the invention of the airplane did people fly.
Did that mean no one could fly?

In the end, hasn't happened doesn't mean can't happen. It is all about probability. Your argument is silly because you are using the past to say it won't happen.

That being said, I don't want Tebow to start. I would rather keep him from getting destroyed.

NorCalBronco7
11-03-2010, 08:46 PM
How many times have I been killed in a volcano?
Does that mean it is physically impossible to die in a volcano?

How many times have I won the lottery?
Does that mean it is physically impossible for me to win the lotto?

How many times before the invention of the airplane did people fly.
Did that mean no one could fly?

In the end, hasn't happened doesn't mean can't happen. It is all about probability.

If somethings never happened before, like a rookie playing over a solid vet, chances are that its mostly likely not going to happen.

Theres always a chance however unlikely and unrealistic it is.

LoyalSoldier
11-03-2010, 08:49 PM
If somethings never happened before, like a rookie playing over a solid vet, chances are that its mostly likely not going to happen.

Theres always a chance however unlikely and unrealistic it is.

Yea and there was never someone who scored 197 TDs before Jerry Rice and it hasn't happened since. So again, your point is worthless because I could use the same argument to say that things that have happened shouldn't have happened.

The Chiefs haven't won at Invesco Field until last year, but hey according to you it couldn't happen because it hadn't happened before.

One reason things never happened before is maybe the conditions that spawned that event never happened before. Times change, cultures change, and people change. Life doesn't live in a bubble.

Thnikkaman
11-03-2010, 09:05 PM
Im talking about the veteran playing solid (like orton is right now) the time the rookie got the call.

So you aren't talking about Plummer/Cutler?

Ravage!!!
11-03-2010, 09:08 PM
If somethings never happened before, like a rookie playing over a solid vet, chances are that its mostly likely not going to happen.

Theres always a chance however unlikely and unrealistic it is.

wow... this absolutely makes no sense. Why is a rookie getting into the starting role over a QB that is 2-6 or 4-14? How is that unrealistic? :confused:

NorCalBronco7
11-03-2010, 09:24 PM
Yea and there was never someone who scored 197 TDs before Jerry Rice and it hasn't happened since. So again, your point is worthless because I could use the same argument to say that things that have happened shouldn't have happened.

The Chiefs haven't won at Invesco Field until last year, but hey according to you it couldn't happen because it hadn't happened before.

One reason things never happened before is maybe the conditions that spawned that event never happened before. Times change, cultures change, and people change. Life doesn't live in a bubble.

Your talking in absolutes when I have not used any. I never said Tebow couldnt start this year, I said its very unlikely. Big difference.

:coffee:



So you aren't talking about Plummer/Cutler?

A couple people have brought up this example.


Plummer, if you remember that year, was benched because of his poor play. In 11 games Jay had 11tds and 13 picks and boasted a 68 QBR. He was not a solid player at that time.

That situation is different because Orton is playing well with a rookie beneath him.



wow... this absolutely makes no sense. Why is a rookie getting into the starting role over a QB that is 2-6 or 4-14? How is that unrealistic? :confused:

Because although the TEAM is struggling, Orton isnt.

GEM
11-03-2010, 10:27 PM
So you aren't talking about Plummer/Cutler?

None of the examples given fits his perfect little box of what he is arguing. Well, in his own opinion, they don't. In all actuality, they fit perfectly...in decimating his own argument.

horsepig
11-03-2010, 10:45 PM
When I say solid I mean a player with a good TD/Int ratio, decent QBR around 80. Sometimes QBRs are dumb, but for the most part they tell the story.

Like Orton for instance last year had 21tds/12ints 86 qbr. Thats solid. Not great, but not bad by any means.

W/L is a team stat, but they can tell part of the story sometimes. Definitly not all it though.

They also have to be a solid player when they got benched. Not 6 years before they got benched and 10 years after. They have to be playing solid at the time.

Plummer wasnt a solid Qb when he got benched. Thats why Cutler was rushed in.

Lets see some proof. If I am not mistaken Plummer owns the all time NFL record winning % for a starting QB over a given time span. Shannahan sabotaged Plummer with the offenseive scheme, which was designed for a strong armed QB like Cutler. Just one of Shannahan's many mistakes over his last several years here.

NorCalBronco7
11-03-2010, 10:50 PM
None of the examples given fits his perfect little box of what he is arguing. Well, in his own opinion, they don't. In all actuality, they fit perfectly...in decimating his own argument.

This coming from a person who believes Plummer was a "solid Qb" when he was benched for poor play! :lol: Yeah 11tds and 13 picks in 11 games is solid....:confused:

Im going to call you out on your bullshit answers because they are GARBAGE.

NorCalBronco7
11-03-2010, 10:56 PM
Lets see some proof. If I am not mistaken Plummer owns the all time NFL record winning % for a starting QB over a given time span. Shannahan sabotaged Plummer with the offenseive scheme, which was designed for a strong armed QB like Cutler. Just one of Shannahan's many mistakes over his last several years here.

Proof of what? Im not sure what your asking.

Plummers stats?

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/P/PlumJa00.htm

06 was not only Plummers last year with the Broncos, but the entire NFL.

Lonestar
11-03-2010, 10:58 PM
Seems not that long ago, the Broncos were 7-3, thats winning and stats arent the be all end all.

At about that point, with the playoffs still a pretty good chance of being found, the Broncos then coach started a rookie QB.

Look at where that got everyone. Mikey fired, dinger had to move out of town, jay got to big for his britches is now suffering for it with loads of money hot chick getting his ass beat up every week.

Jake made out had a boat load of money for the 2-3 times he rewrote his contract to save mikes ass capwise, retires from the game (getting beat up each week) has uber hot chick (wife) and plays racketball to be competive, lives back home and has to be LHAO when he hears Bronco and Bears scores.


Hmmmmmm who got the best end of this deal.

BTW mikey is getting his ass kicked in the press for taking a HOF QB out of the game to play grossman. LMAO
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

Krugan
11-03-2010, 10:59 PM
Proof of what? Im not sure what your asking.

Plummers stats?

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/P/PlumJa00.htm

06 was not only Plummers last year with the Broncos, but the entire NFL.

Fitting you would use that, considering he decided he would rather retire than play for the team who had his rights.

It wasnt his final year because he couldnt play, HE decided he didnt want to play anymore.

NorCalBronco7
11-03-2010, 11:11 PM
Fitting you would use that, considering he decided he would rather retire than play for the team who had his rights.

It wasnt his final year because he couldnt play, HE decided he didnt want to play anymore.

Ive always loved Plummer. I was pumped when the Broncos signed him. I still have enormous respect for him today.

But his last year with the Broncos was not good.

Krugan
11-03-2010, 11:20 PM
Ive always loved Plummer. I was pumped when the Broncos signed him. I still have enormous respect for him today.

But his last year with the Broncos was not good.

The whole offense sucked, it wasnt just plummer.

But as far as a solid QB, that he was.

When he was pulled, it was one of the biggest blunders of shannys career.

And it played out by his 7-3 team tanking 3 of the next 5 games.

Seems the solid qb, you know the one who had lead his team to 4 games above .500 watched the rookie tank it.

But you dont want my answer, so ill just drop it. Cant expect this to ever end, as it is opinionated and there for has no solid answer.

Good luck on your hunt.

Ravage!!!
11-03-2010, 11:37 PM
Guys... he's intentionally made the criteria so small, that its silly to try. This makes him feel as though he's right, when it really has no bearing on this situation whatsoever.

As Loyal pointed out.... who cares what hasn't happened before when nothing about THIS situation is like the others. His definition of "solid" is ambiguous at best, and changes to fit his needs. It really doesn't matter what HE things as being "solid".. only that he feels he can say he's right.... AS if him being 'right' proves a GD thing. It doesn't.

He also believes that starting Tebow is bad because it will Hurt ORTON's progression and experience. Yes, thats right. You heard that silliness here. So please. The best advice is not to feed this trolling thread. Its proven to be a waste that only feeds this ridiculously large ego. :coffee:

NorCalBronco7
11-03-2010, 11:44 PM
The whole offense sucked, it wasnt just plummer.

But as far as a solid QB, that he was.

When he was pulled, it was one of the biggest blunders of shannys career.

And it played out by his 7-3 team tanking 3 of the next 5 games.

Seems the solid qb, you know the one who had lead his team to 4 games above .500 watched the rookie tank it.

But you dont want my answer, so ill just drop it. Cant expect this to ever end, as it is opinionated and there for has no solid answer.

Good luck on your hunt.

So Plummer sucked along with the rest of the offense.....but was somehow was still "solid" :confused: Yeah that makes a ton of sense.

You should drop it because your contradicting yourself. Other than a TEAM W/L stat, you have nothing. Whereas anyone with common sense could look at his individual stats and know he had a bad year.

NorCalBronco7
11-03-2010, 11:53 PM
Guys... he's intentionally made the criteria so small, that its silly to try. This makes him feel as though he's right, when it really has no bearing on this situation whatsoever.

As Loyal pointed out.... who cares what hasn't happened before when nothing about THIS situation is like the others. His definition of "solid" is ambiguous at best, and changes to fit his needs. It really doesn't matter what HE things as being "solid".. only that he feels he can say he's right.... AS if him being 'right' proves a GD thing. It doesn't.

He also believes that starting Tebow is bad because it will Hurt ORTON's progression and experience. Yes, thats right. You heard that silliness here. So please. The best advice is not to feed this trolling thread. Its proven to be a waste that only feeds this ridiculously large ego. :coffee:

Mr. I Hate Facts :coffee: you knows nothing.


A solid vet starting over a rookie is not tiny criteria.....:tsk:

Bosco
11-04-2010, 12:47 AM
I don't know why we're still arguing over it. Guys who are playing at Orton's level don't get replaced by rookies. It just doesn't happen.

PAINTERDAVE
11-04-2010, 01:30 AM
I don't know why we're still arguing over it. Guys who are playing at Orton's level don't get replaced by rookies. It just doesn't happen.

This is unique situtation. Any one who can't see that is stubborn.

The decision is up to McD and Bowlen.
They will decide to get Tebow some playing time in this wasted season or not.

The concept of throwing Tebow in, wthout practicing with the first teamers...
without a game plan designed for him in particular...
in a game where Orton has already lost it anyway...

that is not a productive use of these throwaway games.

Putting Tebow in as a starter...
with preparation alongside the first team...
and a game plan designed specificly for him and his skill set...

that is true test of what he is capable of...
and the plan that is least likely to get his head taken off in the process.

All that said...

it is up to the coach and the owner...
and they are not gonna telegraph their moves early...
so we just have to wait and see.

Nor Call, like a dog with a bone, is one of the stubborn ones,
who fails to acknowledge that this is a unique situation....
and that there might be a silver lining to this storm cloud.

Orton is a great guy... a pretty good QB.

Tebow is nothing but a winner in everything he has ever attempted.

They drafted him with 4 picks, they paid him a ton...
Tebow is the future of this franchise...
unless he craps out.

This season is perfectly fitted to finding out what we have in him.
Before the Oakland debacle...
EVERYONE said what an easy schedule the rest of the season was gonna be.
That makes it an even better reason to find out now...
in this ruined season against a weaker schedule...

Start the Kid , Josh. Let's see what kinda horses he's got under the hood.

Canmore
11-04-2010, 01:35 AM
I don't know why we're still arguing over it. Guys who are playing at Orton's level don't get replaced by rookies. It just doesn't happen.

Don't bet on it.

Lonestar
11-04-2010, 08:40 AM
Lets see some proof. If I am not mistaken Plummer owns the all time NFL record winning % for a starting QB over a given time span. Shannahan sabotaged Plummer with the offenseive scheme, which was designed for a strong armed QB like Cutler. Just one of Shannahan's many mistakes over his last several years here.

Let me add it forced Jake to pass from the pocket something has never done well.
Mike learned well from the greise ordeal do not force s rookie in over a popular locker room leader. Allow it to happen and allow the team to think it was the bestt idea.

Remember that Jake had a career year the year before almost setting the passes between picks record.

They went from a roll out QB to pocket passing scheme without helping/changing the oline for bigger players. Yet once jay was in realizing the oline could not do it modified it to allow jay to roll out much more.

IMO mike did just enough/what he had to do, to get his new toy in the game.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

GEM
11-04-2010, 10:03 AM
This coming from a person who believes Plummer was a "solid Qb" when he was benched for poor play! :lol: Yeah 11tds and 13 picks in 11 games is solid....:confused:

Im going to call you out on your bullshit answers because they are GARBAGE.

Yes, I believe that Plummer was a solid QB. Going to the AFC championship game the previous season does point to being solid. Orton hasn't had star numbers the last few games, in fact he's thrown INT's at key plays, fumbled the ball at key plays, can't get the ball in the end zone, all things that you are calling out Plummer for. Orton hasn't played solid the last 3 games. By your own definition, which has changed over and over and over to fit your argument, Tebow could be put in at any time.

While we are calling people out.....when talking about bullshit, read through the 2 threads on the topic and see just how many times your argument changed. Every time you were given an example, you changed the criteria. It was all rather ridiculous. I'm also going to call that you had to become rude and attack numerous posters because you can't handle the FACT that other people have OPINIONS, OPINIONS can't be wrong, and that an article written by someone is an OPINION piece which therefore cannot be presented as FACT. Anyone can write something up with stats that fit their argument. When you are presenting an OPINION you find FACTS to back up that OPINION. You don't find FACTS that are going to descredit your OPINION. Capeesh?

Ravage!!!
11-04-2010, 10:42 AM
Mr. I Hate Facts :coffee: you knows nothing.


A solid vet starting over a rookie is not tiny criteria.....:tsk:

This is incorrect. You haven't given me facts, you've given me stats. True, some of the stats you gave me are facts, but they were absolutely interpretive, and nothing that is indisputable. Thats not a fact.

Your stats can be used to form your opinion, and although you and bosco want to believe that your opinions are facts, and other opinions are wrong... thats just been shown, time and time again, to be incorrect. But I'm sure you won't admit to THAT fact.

The problem here, is that you can't seem to discern the notion that not everything is created equal. Not all situations are the same. You can't seem to realize that Orton's play doesn't have ANYTHING to do with the desire of to get Tebow some playing time.

What this is, to you, is your desire to try and be "right." If Tebow doesn't get to start this year, then I PROMISE you, you will be RIGHT here bragging about how you are right. Its important for you. If/when Tebow DOES start sometime this season, you won't come around OR you will say that the reason Tebow is starting is because Orton stopped being a "solid QB" (whatever that is) and thus the criteria fits again. You definition of "solid QB" is ambiguous at best, and only seems to fit where YOU apply it.... nice way to always be right ;)

Northman
11-04-2010, 10:58 AM
I don't know why we're still arguing over it. Guys who are playing at Orton's level don't get replaced by rookies. It just doesn't happen.

I would also bet most of the time guys playing at his level are having winning seasons. As most have pointed too its really not even about Orton only that the season is toast and it might be wise to see what the rookie has.

TXBRONC
11-04-2010, 11:37 AM
I would also bet most of the time guys playing at his level are having winning seasons. As most have pointed too its really not even about Orton only that the season is toast and it might be wise to see what the rookie has.

Exactly in almost every other instance where a quarterback was putting up big numbers like Orton is their teams were winning.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

LoyalSoldier
11-04-2010, 04:48 PM
Your talking in absolutes when I have not used any. I never said Tebow couldnt start this year, I said its very unlikely. Big difference.

:coffee:

You don't ask for proof when you are talking in likelyhood......

Sheesh take a logic class or something.

At this point you are changing the rules to fit your bias which is a sign that your argument is based on shaky principles.

Northman
11-04-2010, 05:05 PM
You don't ask for proof when you are talking in likelyhood......

Sheesh take a logic class or something.

At this point you are changing the rules to fit your bias which is a sign that your argument is based on shaky principles.

He's REALLY good at doing that. Last night was hilarious as i kept showing his contradictions and he was getting lost within himself trying to come up with new excuses. Pretty funny.

NorCalBronco7
11-16-2010, 01:39 AM
Tebow didnt even get snaps in garbage time against the Chiefs!


And people think Tebows going to start over Orton this year.



:lol:

TXBRONC
11-16-2010, 09:10 AM
Tebow didnt even get snaps in garbage time against the Chiefs!


And people think Tebows going to start over Orton this year.



:lol:

The season isn't over just yet nor are we mathematically eliminated from playoff contention.