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rcsodak
11-01-2010, 04:57 PM
I'm curious how many more 'fire McD' threads can be started. Frankly, I'm tired of them. Ya'll wanted a new HC. Ya'll SAID you'd gladly sit idly by for 2-3years of losing. Ya'll SAID you wanted a young and dynamic HC.
I was one of the posters that called BS back then. Nobody wants to sit back and watch their team lose week in/out just for "change". I know I didn't want to.
But here we are. A new HC that has dumped the players of the past that didnt produce. And many of them arent even in the league today. Shows you just how low-talent they were. Now, he's into his 2nd year of adding a new philosophy...one thats been proven to win. And that takes TIME and TALENT. Not in 1yr. Not in 1.5yrs. Prolly not in 2. Having a draft of top 5 talent on the Dline/LB's COULD be just what the Dr ordered. NOW is the time to show SUPPORT for Bowlen/Xanders/McD. Why? Because for all your WISHING, there is NO magic cureall and having another coach come in and changing things around is what screws up a team.
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Krugan
11-01-2010, 05:00 PM
I'm curious how many more 'fire McD' threads can be started. Frankly, I'm tired of them. Ya'll wanted a new HC. Ya'll SAID you'd gladly sit idly by for 2-3years of losing. Ya'll SAID you wanted a young and dynamic HC.
I was one of the posters that called BS back then. Nobody wants to sit back and watch their team lose week in/out just for "change". I know I didn't want to.
But here we are. A new HC that has dumped the players of the past that didnt produce. And many of them arent even in the league today. Shows you just how low-talent they were. Now, he's into his 2nd year of adding a new philosophy...one thats been proven to win. And that takes TIME and TALENT. Not in 1yr. Not in 1.5yrs. Prolly not in 2. Having a draft of top 5 talent on the Dline/LB's COULD be just what the Dr ordered. NOW is the time to show SUPPORT for Bowlen/Xanders/McD. Why? Because for all your WISHING, there is NO magic cureall and having another coach come in and changing things around is what screws up a team.
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It is year 2!

If this team were at least competitive I think that the majority of those that are complaining (myself included, im weak when it comes to my team at least showing up) wouldnt be this upset.

From 6-0 to 4-14 is Detroit'ish, and it hurts.

Granted multiple years of 8-8 isnt a highlight, it at least has a glimmer of, "hey, at least we are close".

camdisco24
11-01-2010, 05:03 PM
I'm sorry but, nothing about McD's "philosophy" shows me that it leads to wins.
I wasn't part of the board when people were supposedly calling for a new HC and saying they would gladly "sit idle" for a few seasons.
But I can almost promise no one was calling for the disaster that is Josh McDaniels.
Its one thing to have a rough first year and show improvement the second year. THATS normal.
But what we have seen is a team getting worse every single week.
That, IMO, is unacceptable.
I will not sit here and enjoy watching my team be destroyed by this fool anymore.

Dreadnought
11-01-2010, 05:03 PM
Very easy to answer. We had issues that needed to be addressed. The supposed cure made us far worse. Our personnel moves are terrible, and our coach is an incompetant. We are making no progress, and are in fact getting worse, to the point of becoming a league joke. Don't take my word for it, look at the record.

spikerman
11-01-2010, 05:03 PM
I'm curious how many more 'fire McD' threads can be started. Frankly, I'm tired of them. Ya'll wanted a new HC. Ya'll SAID you'd gladly sit idly by for 2-3years of losing. Ya'll SAID you wanted a young and dynamic HC.
I was one of the posters that called BS back then. Nobody wants to sit back and watch their team lose week in/out just for "change". I know I didn't want to.
But here we are. A new HC that has dumped the players of the past that didnt produce. And many of them arent even in the league today. Shows you just how low-talent they were. Now, he's into his 2nd year of adding a new philosophy...one thats been proven to win. And that takes TIME and TALENT. Not in 1yr. Not in 1.5yrs. Prolly not in 2. Having a draft of top 5 talent on the Dline/LB's COULD be just what the Dr ordered. NOW is the time to show SUPPORT for Bowlen/Xanders/McD. Why? Because for all your WISHING, there is NO magic cureall and having another coach come in and changing things around is what screws up a team.
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A couple of years of losing is ok if the team is improving. There is NOTHING that suggests the Broncos are improving - only losing.

slim
11-01-2010, 05:05 PM
I would echo what the others have said.

If the team was getting better (showing at least some improvement every week), then I would be okay. But the team is regressing at an alarming rate.

I agree that having a "coaching carousel" is not the answer, but when it becomes obvious that the team is regressing, you have to do something about it.

rcsodak
11-01-2010, 05:06 PM
S o its time to back up what you said, and stand behind the team as it goes through these growing pains. Cheer your head off when they score. Hell, when they stop a RB for aa loss. SUPPORT the team as many of us did back before Elway.

Its the true fans that STAY FANS and SUPPORT their team through their trials and tribulations that can sit back and smile when the HC is standing is holding the Lombardi over his head, and says to themselves "job well done".

Buck up and know that this losing is is just a building step back to the top.

There is NO magic cure.
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slim
11-01-2010, 05:08 PM
S o its time to back up what you said, and stand behind the team as it goes through these growing pains. Cheer your head off when they score. Hell, when they stop a RB for aa loss. SUPPORT the team as many of us did back before Elway.

Its the true fans that STAY FANS and SUPPORT their team through their trials and tribulations that can sit back and smile when the HC is standing is holding the Lombardi over his head, and says to themselves "job well done".

Buck up and know that this losing is is just a building step back to the top.

There is NO magic cure.
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You can "stand behind" the team and still not be impressed with the current coaching job, can't you?

BeefStew25
11-01-2010, 05:08 PM
Fan police are gay.

camdisco24
11-01-2010, 05:09 PM
No one thinks there is a magic cure....
No one has said they won't support and cheer for the team.
We are BRONCOS fans. When we see something bad happening on our team, we're not going to sit silently and let it happen.
McDaniels does represent what the Broncos are all about. We are too proud of an organization to let this rookie HC chase all the talent out and leave us with a team that is far worse than the one he acquired.

Krugan
11-01-2010, 05:12 PM
S o its time to back up what you said, and stand behind the team as it goes through these growing pains. Cheer your head off when they score. Hell, when they stop a RB for aa loss. SUPPORT the team as many of us did back before Elway.

Its the true fans that STAY FANS and SUPPORT their team through their trials and tribulations that can sit back and smile when the HC is standing is holding the Lombardi over his head, and says to themselves "job well done".

Buck up and know that this losing is is just a building step back to the top.

There is NO magic cure.
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RC, I was tuned into the game 2 minutes early and sulked for 20 after.

You can support your team, and still be unhappy.

Its like having a job you cant stand, but you still go everyday and give effort because its what you do.

jhildebrand
11-01-2010, 05:15 PM
Many of us said we would tolerate some hard to stomach seasons if we rebuilt.

It isn't even questionable if this team is rebuilding. It ISN'T...YET!

I was and am willing for some tough seasons if we truly rebuild. McD has shown he isn't willing to rebuild. He has also shown that he is a terrible talent evaluator as well which now has created another problem.

Finally, I am not sure his system cannot win without Randy Moss, Tom Brady, Belichick (3 HOF'ers) at the helm oh and a Legit DT in Wilfork, great LB's and an all but complete team :lol:

jhildebrand
11-01-2010, 05:17 PM
I keep hearing this idea that the majority of Shanahan's guys aren't in the league.

I ask the people who post this crap to prove it. Maybe you can, RC. Who are the majority of the 53?

Lichtensteiger couldn't play here but does fine in Washington
Ryan Torain ditto
Hamilton is fine in seattle
Polumbus ditto
Hillis is making Cleveland love him
Marshall is at home in Miami
Schefler is at home in Detroit
Jay is at home in Chicago
Wiegmann is playing great in KC

That's just the offense

McD cut loose carlton powell who has done well in tampa


So please tell me where this majority is.

Day1BroncoFan
11-01-2010, 05:19 PM
We're in the "true fan" crap again, come on.

I just want my team to win. I was ready to let Shanny go. I had no preference for a new coach other than we show some promise and improve.

So far since last year we started 6-0 then collapsed much like in the past. This year we have only won 2 games and had one of the most embarrasing home loses since the Broncos started.

The team looks like it lacks leadership and is making stupid mistakes, the kind of mistakes that lose games. I support my team but don't expect me to be warm and fuzzy about the way they're playing right now.

I'm not saying we should get rid of McD or not but what happens the rest of this year will make a lot of difference how I feel about him next year.

slim
11-01-2010, 05:25 PM
I keep hearing this idea that the majority of Shanahan's guys aren't in the league.

I ask the people who post this crap to prove it. Maybe you can, RC. Who are the majority of the 53?

Lichtensteiger couldn't play here but does fine in Washington
Ryan Torain ditto
Hamilton is fine in seattle
Polumbus ditto
Hillis is making Cleveland love him
Marshall is at home in Miami
Schefler is at home in Detroit
Jay is at home in Chicago
Wiegmann is playing great in KC

That's just the offense

McD cut loose carlton powell who has done well in tampa


So please tell me where this majority is.

From the 2008 Roster. There are a few here that may still be in the league, but I wasn't sure. Also, I left Jarvis Moss on the list, since he has no business being in the NFL :D



11 Patrick Ramsey QB 6-3 225 02-14-1979 7 Tulane

14 Brandon Stokley WR 5-11 192 06-23-1976 10 Louisiana-Lafayette

19 x-Edell Shepherd WR 6-1 175 05-18-1980 4 San Jose State

21 Hamza Abdullah S 6-2 216 08-20-1983 4 Washington State

23 Andre Hall RB 5-10 212 08-20-1982 2 South Florida

28 Michael Pittman RB 6-0 225 08-14-1975 11 Fresno State

33 Marquand Manuel S 6-0 213 07-11-1979 7 Florida

35 Selvin Young RB 5-11 215 10-01-1983 2 Texas

37 Calvin Lowry S 5-11 200 02-13-1983 3 Penn State

37 x-Cecil Sapp RB 5-11 229 12-23-1978 6 Colorado State

41 Karl Paymah CB 6-0 195 11-29-1982 4 Washington State

52 Louis Green LB 6-3 237 09-23-1979 5 Alcorn State

53 Niko Koutouvides LB 6-2 238 03-25-1981 5 Purdue

58 Nate Webster LB 6-0 232 11-29-1977 9 Miami (FL)

60 John Engelberger DE 6-4 260 10-18-1976 9 Virginia Tech

62 Casey Wiegmann C 6-2 285 07-20-1973 13 Iowa

63 Dewayne Robertson DT 6-1 317 10-16-1981 6 Kentucky

64 Erik Pears T 6-8 305 06-25-1982 3 Colorado State

65 Dylan Gandy G 6-3 290 03-08-1982 4 Texas Tech

66 Tom Nalen C 6-3 286 05-13-1971 15 Boston College

81 Nate Jackson TE 6-3 235 06-04-1979 6 Menlo

82 Darrell Jackson WR 5-11 210 12-06-1978 9 Florida

85 Keary Colbert WR 6-1 205 05-21-1982 5 USC

90 Kenny Peterson DT 6-3 300 11-21-1978 6 Ohio State

91 Ebenezer Ekuban DE 6-4 275 05-29-1976 10 North Carolina

93 Nic Clemons DT 6-6 300 02-03-1980 2 Georgia

94 Jarvis Moss DE 6-6 265 08-03-1984 2 Florida

95 Josh Shaw DT 6-2 290 09-07-1979 5 Michigan State

97 Boss Bailey LB 6-3 235 10-14-1979 6 Georgia

Thnikkaman
11-01-2010, 05:27 PM
rcsodak, let the whiner's whine. Its not my place to tell someone how to root for their team.

I learned that from beefy bear.

TXBRONC
11-01-2010, 05:31 PM
I've never said that I would stomach losing nor have I asked for McDaniels to be fired. I also don't think anyone has the right question the sincerity of fans that don't think this coach is all that and a bag chips.
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Northman
11-01-2010, 05:32 PM
Ya'll wanted a new HC. Ya'll SAID you'd gladly sit idly by for 2-3years of losing.

I for sure NEVER made such a statement. EVER.


Ya'll SAID you wanted a young and dynamic HC.

Again, i personally never made these claims. If Bowlen felt it was the direction to go i supported it so as long as it was showing positive results which it hasnt.


I was one of the posters that called BS back then. Nobody wants to sit back and watch their team lose week in/out just for "change". I know I didn't want to.

I didnt want too and i know Bowlen stated he didnt want too either.


But here we are. A new HC that has dumped the players of the past that didnt produce. And many of them arent even in the league today. Shows you just how low-talent they were. Now, he's into his 2nd year of adding a new philosophy...one thats been proven to win. And that takes TIME and TALENT. Not in 1yr. Not in 1.5yrs. Prolly not in 2. Having a draft of top 5 talent on the Dline/LB's COULD be just what the Dr ordered. NOW is the time to show SUPPORT for Bowlen/Xanders/McD. Why? Because for all your WISHING, there is NO magic cureall and having another coach come in and changing things around is what screws up a team.
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I dont support something i dont believe in which currently is the HC. I will continue to support the team on gameday in hopes they can win but McDaniels is a failure right now and until he can prove me wrong i dont have to support him the guy. In the end if he wants my support than he better put up or shut up. Simple as that matey.

rcsodak
11-01-2010, 05:34 PM
You can "stand behind" the team and still not be impressed with the current coaching job, can't you?
in yr 2? Really? With a new DC? Minus the reigning sacker? With street FA's at LB? With 2 rookie Olinemen? (I blame the Oline coach).
I remember shanny bringing in an ex-HC to be the DC. A PROVEN coach. How'd that turnout? How did the carousel at DC under Shanny help the team? They NEED time/players. You cant tell me this roster is playoff worthy. So why would you expect the playoffs? Ya think redskins fans are calling for a new HC after losing to the worst 2 teams from a yr ago? Or could they maybe be better from high draft pics? Still the same HC's, afterall.
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Shazam!
11-01-2010, 05:35 PM
RC, I love ya Bro and you know that, but I stopped reading right at the start.

If Denver gets beaten, even badly during the rebuilding process, fine. If they show up and play hard, disciplined football, but are beaten by talented teams, that's one thing.

When you lose at home by 40+ points, to a mediocre at best Raiders squad, you've got problems (and no, I'm not passed that either).

SF is far from a powerhouse too.

Josh looked clueless on the sidelines and lost at the press conference.

Teams like Cleveland and Buffalo are still fighting.

There are big, big problems with the Denver Broncos right now. Last I checked, KC was in the rebuilding process. Look at them in year 2. They can likely win the awful division.

I wait all year for football, and to see this shit is disgusting.

Losing bad is one thing, but now we suck internationally.

You know I always supported Josh and gave him the benefit of the doubt. But this is bad. Denver is bad.

Northman
11-01-2010, 05:35 PM
in yr 2? Really? With a new DC? Minus the reigning sacker? With street FA's at LB? With 2 rookie Olinemen? (I blame the Oline coach).
I remember shanny bringing in an ex-HC to be the DC. A PROVEN coach. How'd that turnout? How did the carousel at DC under Shanny help the team? They NEED time/players. You cant tell me this roster is playoff worthy. So why would you expect the playoffs? Ya think redskins fans are calling for a new HC after losing to the worst 2 teams from a yr ago? Or could they maybe be better from high draft pics? Still the same HC's, afterall.
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Its not about Shanahan. Its about McDaniels. Thats part of your problem. You keep referring back to the old the regime but if those were mistakes we are supposed to learn from them, not repeat them. :lol:

rcsodak
11-01-2010, 05:42 PM
No one thinks there is a magic cure....
No one has said they won't support and cheer for the team.
We are BRONCOS fas. When we see something bad happening on our team, we're not going to sit silently and let it happen.
McDaniels does represent what the Broncos are all about. We are too proud of an organization to let this rookie HC chase all the talent out and leave us with a team that is far worse than the one he acquired.
its the defense that is lacking talent. So who on that side did he "chase off"? Every time they score, the other team follows suit, it seems.
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slim
11-01-2010, 05:42 PM
in yr 2? Really? With a new DC? Minus the reigning sacker? With street FA's at LB? With 2 rookie Olinemen? (I blame the Oline coach).


I blame the man who put the roster together.



How did the carousel at DC under Shanny help the team?

How is the carousel at DC working out for McD?



They NEED time/players. You cant tell me this roster is playoff worthy.

I blame the man that put the roster together.




So why would you expect the playoffs?

I don't. But I also don't expect them to lose by 45 point the freaking raiders.



Ya think redskins fans are calling for a new HC after losing to the worst 2 teams from a yr ago?

I could give two shits about what Redskin fans are calling for. I am a Bronco fan.

Broncolingus
11-01-2010, 05:43 PM
Also, I left Jarvis Moss on the list, since he has no business being in the NFL :D

Right! :D

KCL
11-01-2010, 05:48 PM
I know this has nothing to do with the Broncos but I was reading through a thread last night and I had posted this...I don't think it's asking too much for McD to get better in his second year...isn't that why teams bring in new coaches.... I posted this last season...I know how you all feel. This was from a thread that Dortoh made to me.


I know as a fan it sucks to see them losing every game for the last few seasons.I sure as hell would be pissed if I were a season ticket holder..I honestly believe (or I am hopeful) that Pioli is going to take all this in and make some much needed changes for next season.I think this team will get better and they need to dump LJ..wish they would just bench his ass and let Charles start.

rcsodak
11-01-2010, 05:52 PM
RC, I was tuned into the game 2 minutes early and sulked for 20 after.

You can support your team, and still be unhappy.

Its like having a job you cant stand, but you still go everyday and give effort because its what you do.
Krug, I was pissed still today. Wont even listen to Sirius NFL. But that doesnt mean I need to go to the board and whine about the HC. He didnt fumble 2x and throw a late int. He didnt allow that hail mary pass to be caught between TWO DEFENDERS. He didnt allow smith to run 50yds for a 2yd TD, untouched. He didnt allow smith to have a 115QB Rating. Its the players, and the lack of talent. THE DLINE. THE LB'S. He addressed the O. Now its time for the D.
Frankly, I wish they'd only won 4 games lasr yr. Then maybe ya'll wouldnt have gotten so stuck on taing back the division and the playoffs.
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rcsodak
11-01-2010, 05:58 PM
We're in the "true fan" crap again, come on.

I just want my team to win. I was ready to let Shanny go. I had no preference for a new coach other than we show some promise and improve.

So far since last year we started 6-0 then collapsed much like in the past. This year we have only won 2 games and had one of the most embarrasing home loses since the Broncos started.

The team looks like it lacks leadership and is making stupid mistakes, the kind of mistakes that lose games. I support my team but don't expect me to be warm and fuzzy about the way they're playing right now.

I'm not saying we should get rid of McD or not but what happens the rest of this year will make a lot of difference how I feel about him next year.
Didnt mean to label as non-fans. Just saying thay living through past lean years helps develop a stronger base. Hell, listening to fans of st louis/detroit this year, is like a splash of cold water in the face. Its refreshing. This is temporary
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Ravage!!!
11-01-2010, 06:01 PM
Funny. I thought people kept mentioning how Marty Schottenheimer never could win in the playoffs, yet THOSE were the kind of things that happened. HE didn't fumble, HE didn't allow Elway to go 90 yrds, HE didn' fumble back the INT of Brady........

nevcraw
11-01-2010, 06:02 PM
Krug, I was pissed still today. Wont even listen to Sirius NFL. But that doesnt mean I need to go to the board and whine about the HC. He didnt fumble 2x and throw a late int. He didnt allow that hail mary pass to be caught between TWO DEFENDERS. He didnt allow smith to run 50yds for a 2yd TD, untouched. He didnt allow smith to have a 115QB Rating. Its the players, and the lack of talent. THE DLINE. THE LB'S. He addressed the O. Now its time for the D.
Frankly, I wish they'd only won 4 games lasr yr. Then maybe ya'll wouldnt have gotten so stuck on taing back the division and the playoffs.
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He adressed it all right.. downgrading the running game, dimsanteled the blocking scheme and could only score if the they moved the ednzone to the 20.
and from someone who likes to tell others how to fan - I find unconscionable you would ever hope your team loses - but I'll try not to judge..

rcsodak
11-01-2010, 06:06 PM
rcsodak, let the whiner's whine. Its not my place to tell someone how to root for their team.

I learned that from beefy bear.
not telling them they cant. But 85 (guess)threads saying the same thing?
oh, and I forgot the punter. I doubt it was McD who told him to have a 23yd punt and avh 33 or whatever it was. And somebody mentioned a 'lack of leadership'. I AGREE! But it isnt the HC's job to pick a guy to be one. Somebody's got to step the **** UP!
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rcsodak
11-01-2010, 06:12 PM
I for sure NEVER made such a statement. EVER.



Again, i personally never made these claims. If Bowlen felt it was the direction to go i supported it so as long as it was showing positive results which it hasnt.



I didnt want too and i know Bowlen stated he didnt want too either.



I dont support something i dont believe in which currently is the HC. I will continue to support the team on gameday in hopes they can win but McDaniels is a failure right now and until he can prove me wrong i dont have to support him the guy. In the end if he wants my support than he better put up or shut up. Simple as that matey.
I believe you would have, just last week. Something like if you were told *like they owed it to you?* that they were going into 'rebuild mode', you'd be more likely to give him time. Did I get that right?
But I'm not singling anybody out. They know who they are and that was only a part of my point. The other is that a new HC isnt necessarily the cure-all.
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Shazam!
11-01-2010, 06:21 PM
Nobody was expecting a SB contender RC, that's how you're coming off.

Day1BroncoFan
11-01-2010, 06:24 PM
not telling them they cant. But 85 (guess)threads saying the same thing?
oh, and I forgot the punter. I doubt it was McD who told him to have a 23yd punt and avh 33 or whatever it was. And somebody mentioned a 'lack of leadership'. I AGREE! But it isnt the HC's job to pick a guy to be one. Somebody's got to step the **** UP!
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I mentioned a lack of leadership. That starts with the HC. Not saying it's his fault but it starts at the top. His job is get the right people in the right places which isn't happening right now. Why is this such a hard thing to do? This should be the top priority right now. It just seems to me that the foundations is crumbling rather than being built up.

I hope I am wrong and we win out this year but I don't expect that to happen.

rcsodak
11-01-2010, 06:25 PM
Its not about Shanahan. Its about McDaniels. Thats part of your problem. You keep referring back to the old the regime but if those were mistakes we are supposed to learn from them, not repeat them. :lol:
instead of seeing the word 'shanny' and starting to type, read the post. I SIMPLY USED HIM AS AN EXAMPLE. No where did I compare the two. Illustrative purpose only. It was about "proven" coaches/coaching carousel at a more finite level. And fanbase after 2 "embarassing " losses.

Shaz....too big of post to reply to yours. OAK? Dont sleep on them. Kc? How many years of top drafts? This team needs PLAYERS! Coaches can only get out of them what the player has to give. Junk in/junk out.
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Mike
11-01-2010, 06:29 PM
instead of seeing the word 'shanny' and starting to type, read the post. I SIMPLY USED HIM AS AN EXAMPLE. No where did I compare the two. Illustrative purpose only. It was about "proven" coaches/coaching carousel at a more finite level. And fanbase after 2 "embarassing " losses.

Shaz....too big of post to reply to yours. OAK? Dont sleep on them. Kc? How many years of top drafts? This team needs PLAYERS! Coaches can only get out of them what the player has to give. Junk in/junk out.
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What about the players the coach brings in?

Day1BroncoFan
11-01-2010, 06:30 PM
I mentioned a lack of leadership. That starts with the HC. Not saying it's his fault but it starts at the top. His job is get the right people in the right places which isn't happening right now. Why is this such a hard thing to do? This should be the top priority right now. It just seems to me that the foundations is crumbling rather than being built up.

I hope I am wrong and we win out this year but I don't expect that to happen.

And I'll add to this that I don't see much improvement on the O side of the ball either, still making mental errors. Penalties that kill drives, things like that boil down to coaching even if it's the players since those are the people brought in.

KCL
11-01-2010, 06:30 PM
instead of seeing the word 'shanny' and starting to type, read the post. I SIMPLY USED HIM AS AN EXAMPLE. No where did I compare the two. Illustrative purpose only. It was about "proven" coaches/coaching carousel at a more finite level. And fanbase after 2 "embarassing " losses.

Shaz....too big of post to reply to yours. OAK? Dont sleep on them. Kc? How many years of top drafts? This team needs PLAYERS! Coaches can only get out of them what the player has to give. Junk in/junk out.
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ok suppose it isn't the HC...but as several people have pointed out McD was given too much responsibility..since you mentioned KC...The Chiefs got rid of CP and hired a real GM...Haley gave up calling the plays,got 2 new coordinators and used their draft picks wisely...started using their rookies right away...Maybe it would help Denver to do the same :whoknows:

G_Money
11-01-2010, 06:36 PM
We went 8-8 last year. That would normally have been okay...except that what happened was a 6-0 start when all the coaches were ahead of their opponents because nobody had enough game film to gameplan for our tendencies.

After we got booked? 2-8 finish, capped by tossing all remnants of Shanahan off the team and bidding adieu to our hand-picked DC.

So the new OL coach is a disaster, the new DC is far worse that the previous one, the talent isn't better than 2 years ago and the age on Defense means we're not building that for the future yet either.

We've regressed. Tampa Bay? They're making progress. The Lions? Progress, though not in the win column yet. The Rams? Progress. They took their lumps last year, instituted a plan, and are reaping rewards.

Us? Regressing. Getting worse. Losing.

That's the problem. Rebuilding is fine.

Tearing stuff down and throwing it around is not rebuilding, it's just making a mess.

~G

KCL
11-01-2010, 06:40 PM
ok suppose it isn't the HC...but as several people have pointed out McD was given too much responsibility..since you mentioned KC...The Chiefs got rid of CP and hired a real GM...Haley gave up calling the plays,got 2 new coordinators and used their draft picks wisely...started using their rookies right away...Maybe it would help Denver to do the same :whoknows:

Also KC picked up some players along the way...Thomas Jones for one was a great addition...I realize he is 30 or so years old but he would have been a great pickup for Denver given your current running game right now.

claymore
11-01-2010, 06:59 PM
I'm curious how many more 'fire McD' threads can be started. Frankly, I'm tired of them. Ya'll wanted a new HC. Ya'll SAID you'd gladly sit idly by for 2-3years of losing. Ya'll SAID you wanted a young and dynamic HC.
I was one of the posters that called BS back then. Nobody wants to sit back and watch their team lose week in/out just for "change". I know I didn't want to.
But here we are. A new HC that has dumped the players of the past that didnt produce. And many of them arent even in the league today. Shows you just how low-talent they were. Now, he's into his 2nd year of adding a new philosophy...one thats been proven to win. And that takes TIME and TALENT. Not in 1yr. Not in 1.5yrs. Prolly not in 2. Having a draft of top 5 talent on the Dline/LB's COULD be just what the Dr ordered. NOW is the time to show SUPPORT for Bowlen/Xanders/McD. Why? Because for all your WISHING, there is NO magic cureall and having another coach come in and changing things around is what screws up a team.
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The proven system that wins is the one that drafts well, signs utility FA's on the cheap, and puts them in a situation to excel.

I havent seen any of that.

Any system will work great if you have the right players and coaches around. We have neither.

Bad coaches and 2nd string players gets you a top ten-top 5 draft pick.

Anyone not pissed off right now must have been really happy for the 8-8 years.

Lancane
11-01-2010, 07:10 PM
'Those who do not question their leaders when they're wrong are communists, and those who do are socialists, those who question them and deduce what is wrong are free-minded thinkers and the pillars of human society.'

Just give it up, because it's utterly childish to question someone's fanhood because they do not share another person's opinion, and it speaks volumes about such people who can only fallback on such an ignorant point of view. We have the right to ask 'Why?', 'How come?' or any other viable query in regards to anything, that's sort of the foundation of a free society, isn't it?

And yes, Mike Shanahan's tenure in Denver had become stale, his approach and even his overall philosophy came into question. Many of us did agree that a season or two of less then stellar competitiveness and a not so great record would be alright while the team added talent, grew and improved. But this is digression not improvement...when a head coach's moves are so bad that the national media begin to question him and also that of the owner of the team's own insanity? I would say it's a big damn problem!

I keep hearing the bullshit that McDaniels got rid of players that are no longer in the league, and I wish his supporters would get off it and realize that it is not so and thus it's not an argument of fact but of huffing and puffing, smoke n' mirrors crap. Almost all have found success elsewhere, while those brought in to replace them have themselves found none give a select few. I would trade most of McDaniels' rejects for those he had cut loose or traded. So that should brink no argument, because the majority of the fanbase would agree with that...the majority of the fanbase wants McDaniels fired, it's not a conspiracy theory where the whole world has it out to ruin him...he brought it on himself, period and end of story.

Northman
11-01-2010, 07:37 PM
Didnt mean to label as non-fans. Just saying thay living through past lean years helps develop a stronger base. Hell, listening to fans of st louis/detroit this year, is like a splash of cold water in the face. Its refreshing. This is temporary
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Fans were just fine after 3 humiliating SB losses. This is a whole different monster because things were supposed to be on the upswing and its not paying dividends. It will only be temporary when McD does his job and gets us back to winning. If he is around long enough to see it.

Northman
11-01-2010, 07:43 PM
I believe you would have, just last week. Something like if you were told *like they owed it to you?* that they were going into 'rebuild mode', you'd be more likely to give him time. Did I get that right?
But I'm not singling anybody out. They know who they are and that was only a part of my point. The other is that a new HC isnt necessarily the cure-all.
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Im just talking from my perspective. And yes, i would give him far more leeway if he put Tebow at this very moment and decided to give the young players time to gel and get gametime experience. But, McD hasnt done that. He has tried to play both sides of the fence which shows more of his indecision and more of what Shanny was doing. Either we are rebuilding or we are not. He needs to make up his mind where we are going with the team. If he continues to stay with Orton than i will not be keen to giving him more time. This isnt a knock on Orton, its just that if we are rebuilding than lets rebuild. If he is playing for the playoffs (like Bowlen stated after firing Shanahan) than any moves, playcalling, etc he makes is on him. If that is his angle he has failed this team, this organization, and the fans.

Buff
11-01-2010, 07:45 PM
We went 8-8 last year. That would normally have been okay...except that what happened was a 6-0 start when all the coaches were ahead of their opponents because nobody had enough game film to gameplan for our tendencies.

After we got booked? 2-8 finish, capped by tossing all remnants of Shanahan off the team and bidding adieu to our hand-picked DC.

So the new OL coach is a disaster, the new DC is far worse that the previous one, the talent isn't better than 2 years ago and the age on Defense means we're not building that for the future yet either.

We've regressed. Tampa Bay? They're making progress. The Lions? Progress, though not in the win column yet. The Rams? Progress. They took their lumps last year, instituted a plan, and are reaping rewards.

Us? Regressing. Getting worse. Losing.

That's the problem. Rebuilding is fine.

Tearing stuff down and throwing it around is not rebuilding, it's just making a mess.

~G

To be fair, all of those teams have top 5 draft picks to work with... It's easier to rebuild your franchise around guys like Calvin Johnson, Sam Bradford and Gerald McCoy as opposed to Demaryius Thomas and Knowshon Moreno. And it's easier to see measurable progress in teams that had been gutted and burned to the ground prior to their turnaround. We appear to be going through the "gutted and burning" stage at the moment.

Northman
11-01-2010, 07:48 PM
To be fair, all of those teams have top 5 draft picks to work with... It's easier to rebuild your franchise around guys like Calvin Johnson, Sam Bradford and Gerald McCoy as opposed to Demaryius Thomas and Knowshon Moreno. And it's easier to see measurable progress in teams that had been gutted and burned to the ground prior to their turnaround. We appear to be going through the "gutted and burning" stage at the moment.


To some extent yes. But the last few years we've had some great draft positions including extra picks. As good as McD was at manuevering the board he could of easily packaged a deal to move up in the top 10. Or better yet, stockpiled and gotten more for his buck. Either way, the last few years we have been in very good position to get players. The problem is the players we took may be of question.

I Eat Staples
11-01-2010, 08:13 PM
S o its time to back up what you said, and stand behind the team as it goes through these growing pains. Cheer your head off when they score. Hell, when they stop a RB for aa loss. SUPPORT the team as many of us did back before Elway.

Its the true fans that STAY FANS and SUPPORT their team through their trials and tribulations that can sit back and smile when the HC is standing is holding the Lombardi over his head, and says to themselves "job well done".

Buck up and know that this losing is is just a building step back to the top.

There is NO magic cure.
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I'll always support the Broncos. In fact, that's exactly why I want McD gone. We are never going to be a good team with that joke of a HC.

G_Money
11-01-2010, 08:24 PM
We've had more number one picks than any of those teams. You'd think it would be easier to rebuild with 4 number one picks than 2. And we had 5 technically, the way we bounced it around.

Yes, top 5 picks are great and we don't have them, but 5 first round picks? Using them on Moreno, Ayars, Phonz, Tebow and Thomas doesn't mean there weren't other/better ways to improve the team with those picks.

Here's hoping the 4 picks we still have all become the star foundation of our team.

~G

Shazam!
11-01-2010, 08:25 PM
These are not growing pains RC...

They are a dysfunctional terribly coached football team right now. Honestly, 3-13 is looking like a reality with Denver ripe for the picking. KC and SD are looking at those games and salivating right now.

I never thought McD would let us sink so low. He has no answers and I'm sick of hearing him congratulating the other team while we get killed. It's like after the NYJ loss this team is completely lost on him.

I ******* hate it.

jhildebrand
11-01-2010, 08:40 PM
ok suppose it isn't the HC...but as several people have pointed out McD was given too much responsibility..since you mentioned KC...The Chiefs got rid of CP and hired a real GM...Haley gave up calling the plays,got 2 new coordinators and used their draft picks wisely...started using their rookies right away...Maybe it would help Denver to do the same :whoknows:

I have been saying this for years. This is a big reason I lost faith in Shanahan. He was old school when it came to the rookies even though the rest of the league went to getting production from rookies asap.

This team gave up 2 or 3 picks for R Quinn
3 for Tebow
1 for Maroney
2 on Alphonso
A couple on Schlueter IIRC

At some point we have 10 picks we aren't and wont get anything from! That isn't rebuilding. The Chiefs are good because they, and I did the research, had almost the exact same amount of picks and got them to produce and produce early.

Big name OC's on the roster helps. McD had one on D last year and look how that worked. Look how Haley benefits from having them in KC>

jhildebrand
11-01-2010, 08:41 PM
We've had more number one picks than any of those teams. You'd think it would be easier to rebuild with 4 number one picks than 2. And we had 5 technically, the way we bounced it around.

Yes, top 5 picks are great and we don't have them, but 5 first round picks? Using them on Moreno, Ayars, Phonz, Tebow and Thomas doesn't mean there weren't other/better ways to improve the team with those picks.

Here's hoping the 4 picks we still have all become the star foundation of our team.

~G

Not to mention top 5 picks also can be cap killers!

Dreadnought
11-01-2010, 08:45 PM
You can "stand behind" the team and still not be impressed with the current coaching job, can't you?

Of course you can. The point of fandom is to want yourt team TO SUCCEED. When current management is clearly making that impossible we have a right to demand its removal.

Its like the political system that way. We are not required to like our political leadership, and it is not OK to question someone's loyalty for disliking same. McDaniels is not Kim Jong-Il, and we are allowed to not only think he is a fake and an incompetent but to say so openly.

I Eat Staples
11-01-2010, 09:10 PM
Very easy to answer. We had issues that needed to be addressed. The supposed cure made us far worse. Our personnel moves are terrible, and our coach is an incompetant. We are making no progress, and are in fact getting worse, to the point of becoming a league joke. Don't take my word for it, look at the record.


Of course you can. The point of fandom is to want yourt team TO SUCCEED. When current management is clearly making that impossible we have a right to demand its removal.

Its like the political system that way. We are not required to like our political leadership, and it is not OK to question someone's loyalty for disliking same. McDaniels is not Kim Jong-Il, and we are allowed to not only think he is a fake and an incompetent but to say so openly.

Two very good posts.

Northman
11-01-2010, 09:20 PM
Not to mention top 5 picks also can be cap killers!

Indeed. I see a lot of the pro-McD club talk about spending wisely and pouring tons of money on top 5 picks that may or may not work out isnt smart spending.

I Eat Staples
11-01-2010, 09:30 PM
Indeed. I see a lot of the pro-McD club talk about spending wisely and pouring tons of money on top 5 picks that may or may not work out isnt smart spending.

Especially when McDouche is the one drafting the players.

ETA: On a side note, rookie contracts are completely out of hand.

scott.475
11-01-2010, 09:40 PM
I have about had it with the "I suppose Josh TOLD them to fumble the ball", "I suppose Josh MADE them commit those penalties", "I suppose Josh MADE them commit this or that mistake" Look, of course he didn't, those are player mistakes no doubt. The problem is this: we are seeing the same mistakes week after week after week. We are not talking about one usually undisciplined game in a string of good ones, we are talking about an ongoing environment of mistake making. I can't help but believe it might have to do with running undisciplined or undetailed practices. I don't really know, I don't go to them, but I cannot believe that the persistent mistake making does not have a common root problem somewhere. A PERFECT, obvious example of this is our defense. How many times this year have we had TOO MANY or TOO FEW defenders on the field? You really want me to believe that, seeing that week after week, doesn't come back to sloppy practice in some way?

You know, this comes back to that whole "you make your own luck" kind of thing. Know what kind of teams make their own luck, seem to get all the lucky breaks? The ones who are well disciplined, and good discipline comes from good, detailed practice. We are not disciplined, so we are making mistakes and not getting the breaks.

Funny, too, so many of these players that are making all these mistakes are McD's guys, the bigger, faster, smarter ones apparently. Yet, that is not his fault either.

Funny, all this year I thought I was pissed about the Broncos' performance precisely BECAUSE I am a fan of this team. Who knew I was so upset about just because I have nothing better to do, you know, because I am one of those guys who isn't happy unless I can be mad about something. I am so glad to be set straight, I see the light now. I LOVE being 2-6, WOOHOO! WE ARE AWESOME! YAAAAAAAY! :lol:

Shazam!
11-01-2010, 11:19 PM
I honestly cannot see how Denver wins another game. It's to the point even AZ can whack them.

The Raiders are hot (who would believe). KC is in 1st. SD can always pull off a string.

5 games against division rivals who would love to pummel Denver into the dirt.

4-12 or worse is a reality.

I have no reason to think McD can turn this around. Nothing he has shown can make me think otherwise.

...and I'm sonehow supposed to be happy about it or just accept it?? That's not gonna happen.

scott.475
11-01-2010, 11:29 PM
I have no reason to think McD can turn this around. Nothing he has shown can make me think otherwise.

...and I'm sonehow supposed to be happy about it or just accept it?? That's not gonna happen.

Well then, you just aren't a true fan. Didn't you get the memo? :lol:

Lonestar
11-02-2010, 01:25 AM
We are too proud of an organization to let this rookie HC chase all the talent out and leave us with a team that is far worse than the one he acquired.

Once again what talent did he chase out of town. And then which talent was not replaced.

I think hysterics are being repeated to the point some of you are begining to believe it.

We have lost jay, BM, TS, and hillis. The rest of the team for the most part is still here. BM has been replaced, ts can't block at the LOS. Hillis was only used by two different coaches for a few games in 08. Could we use him now probably.

Outside of those few players who has he chased out of town IF he did or what really happened they whined theselves out of here been discussed ad nauesm.

Y'all act like he cut the entire team when he has not.
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Lonestar
11-02-2010, 01:33 AM
It is year 2!

If this team were at least competitive I think that the majority of those that are complaining (myself included, im weak when it comes to my team at least showing up) wouldnt be this upset.

From 6-0 to 4-14 is Detroit'ish, and it hurts.

Granted multiple years of 8-8 isnt a highlight, it at least has a glimmer of, "hey, at least we are close".

Did I miss something. Lost the NYJ game because of an accidental face mask on a hail. Mary on 4th down seconds to play. Supposedly one of the best teams in the NFL.

Lost to the 9ers on TWO TD's that penalties were called.

If not for 3 penalties we are most likely 4-4 going into the softest part of the schedule.

Just not understanding all the hand wringing that is going on.
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Canmore
11-02-2010, 02:00 AM
Did I miss something. Lost the NYJ game because of an accidental face mask on a hail. Mary on 4th down seconds to play. Supposedly one of the best teams in the NFL.

Lost to the 9ers on TWO TD's that penalties were called.

If not for 3 penalties we are most likely 4-4 going into the softest part of the schedule.

Just not understanding all the hand wringing that is going on.
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If!!! We are 2-6. You are what your record says you are. I thought we were an 8-8 team. I no longer think that. I'm afraid we are going to go another 2-6 after getting beat by the Raiders and the 49's. Good teams overcome and we don't. I am extremely dissappointed.

Tned
11-02-2010, 03:22 AM
To be fair, all of those teams have top 5 draft picks to work with... It's easier to rebuild your franchise around guys like Calvin Johnson, Sam Bradford and Gerald McCoy as opposed to Demaryius Thomas and Knowshon Moreno. And it's easier to see measurable progress in teams that had been gutted and burned to the ground prior to their turnaround. We appear to be going through the "gutted and burning" stage at the moment.

No question. A team that has had multiple top 5 and top 10 picks is going to have more premier talent to rebuild around.

One thing I will remind you of, however, is that the Broncos had four first round picks followng the Cutler trade. I don't know if packaging the two picks each of those years would have netted a top 5 or top 10 pick, but if the argument is that we didn't have a top 5 pick to build around, then we should have moved up in those two drafts.

Or, since Detroit was supposedly willing to trade the top pick for cutler, we could have gone down that road, rather than 'reportedly' shying away from the price tag of a number one pick.

My point is that McDaniels had full control over roster moves and chose to move Cutler and Marshall. He chose what to do with the four first round picks he had in his first two drafts (he didn't inherit Moreno, he picked him).

I'm not on the fire McDaniels bandwagon. I still think there is a great chance he will ultimately be a great head coach in this league. I have said from early on (probably around the first TC) that I think it's very likely that he will be a very good or great head coach in this league, but the big question is whether or not he can survive the growing pains of his youth and inexperience, or wind up getting fired here and going on to have a good coaching career elsewhere.

TimTebow15MVP
11-02-2010, 05:05 AM
It is year 2!

If this team were at least competitive I think that the majority of those that are complaining (myself included, im weak when it comes to my team at least showing up) wouldnt be this upset.

From 6-0 to 4-14 is Detroit'ish, and it hurts.

Granted multiple years of 8-8 isnt a highlight, it at least has a glimmer of, "hey, at least we are close".

Your problem is the 6-0 spoiled you and alot of other bronco fans. the broncos overachieved big time and your low expectations for the team turned into high expectations. so now all of you are angry. Do you even know what competitive is? the broncos have been competitive in all but 2 games this year and that was vs oak and baltimore. other than that the broncos have competed and fought.

jhildebrand
11-02-2010, 09:23 AM
Your problem is the 6-0 spoiled you and alot of other bronco fans.

:laugh::laugh::laugh: What a joke!



the broncos overachieved big time and your low expectations for the team turned into high expectations. so now all of you are angry.

Mind reader extraordinaire! I cant speak for anybody else but I can tell you the 6-0 didn't spoil me. I can also tell you going 2-8 to finish the season and seeing that trend continue into this season making it 4-14 and 0-4 in the division with 3 of those 4 losses being complete blowouts pisses me off.

Seeing a coach who can't recognize that Troy Smith can't throw the ball but only rush 3 or 4 and have 7 in the box is a joke to me. This team should have had 8 or 9 in the box especially with Goodman and Dawk back. So many said we were losing in part because of their absence!

Seeing no progress pisses me off. Ultimately, seeing no signs of improvement all while fundamentally this team gets worse is maddening.

But go ahead and pretend it is only because McD happened to get to 6-0 which had EVERYTHING to do with NOLAN and almost little to do with McD.



Do you even know what competitive is?

It is going to Jax in the opener with a fully healthy team and not making Garrard look like the second coming of Joe Montana. It is making it look like you belong on the same field.

Do you know what progress is?

Krugan
11-02-2010, 09:32 AM
Krug, I was pissed still today. Wont even listen to Sirius NFL. But that doesnt mean I need to go to the board and whine about the HC. He didnt fumble 2x and throw a late int. He didnt allow that hail mary pass to be caught between TWO DEFENDERS. He didnt allow smith to run 50yds for a 2yd TD, untouched. He didnt allow smith to have a 115QB Rating. Its the players, and the lack of talent. THE DLINE. THE LB'S. He addressed the O. Now its time for the D.
Frankly, I wish they'd only won 4 games lasr yr. Then maybe ya'll wouldnt have gotten so stuck on taing back the division and the playoffs.
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I can get behind this RC, but in the end it is on his shoulders.

He is "building this team", which makes him responsible for it. Would you rather see 80 threads pointing fingers at players?

And as fans, I would think we should all be stuck on taking back the division, but thats just me, I think this team should win it all every year, unrealistic yes, but im a fan.

He addressed the D in the offseason with old Dline players, and that seems to mimic what we have dealt with for years. Instead of breaking up the O, which wasnt the biggest issue, he should have addressed the D from the get go. IMO

But thats another dead horse.

rcsodak
11-02-2010, 09:34 AM
Funny. I thought people kept mentioning how Marty Schottenheimer never could win in the playoffs, yet THOSE were the kind of things that happened. HE didn't fumble, HE didn't allow Elway to go 90 yrds, HE didn' fumble back the INT of Brady........

No. Marty just sux.
:D

jhildebrand
11-02-2010, 10:00 AM
He didnt fumble 2x and throw a late int. He didnt allow that hail mary pass to be caught between TWO DEFENDERS. He didnt allow smith to run 50yds for a 2yd TD, untouched. He didnt allow smith to have a 115QB Rating.

But he chose the roster and the players that allowed those things to happen. He failed to recognize Troy Smith couldn't throw the ball and put 8 or 9 in the box. Instead, he put 7 in and let Gore gash this team.

Of course in this thread the players lost by their own accord but in any Marty discussion they lost because of Marty. Love that double standard. :rolleyes:




Its the players, and the lack of talent. THE DLINE. THE LB'S. He addressed the O. Now its time for the D.

The problem is it was time for the D when he stepped in. The problem is saying he addressed the O DESPITE the fact that with the #12 overall and #1 RB of the 2009 draft we are still the worst rushing team in the league. Saying he addressed the O while paying a ransome for a USELESS R Quinn is ignorant of the fact he is inactive week after week for a 7th Round pick.

Krugan
11-02-2010, 10:46 AM
Your problem is the 6-0 spoiled you and alot of other bronco fans. the broncos overachieved big time and your low expectations for the team turned into high expectations. so now all of you are angry. Do you even know what competitive is? the broncos have been competitive in all but 2 games this year and that was vs oak and baltimore. other than that the broncos have competed and fought.

really glad to see you know where my train of thought has been for the last 1 1/2 years.

Can I have it back please?

I have expected big things from this team for 30 years, every year I expect them to win it all.

nothing wrong at all with that, as a fan its what I expect. Unrealistic yes, but none the less its what I want for the team I root for.

I Eat Staples
11-02-2010, 11:26 AM
No. Marty just sux.
:D

He's better than any talent evaluator on our team.

But who isn't? We have the worst GM and HC in the league.

spikerman
11-02-2010, 06:44 PM
Once again what talent did he chase out of town. And then which talent was not replaced. See the answer in your own quote below.


We have lost jay, BM, TS, and hillis. The rest of the team for the most part is still here. BM has been replaced, ts can't block at the LOS. Hillis was only used by two different coaches for a few games in 08. Could we use him now probably.

Outside of those few players who has he chased out of town IF he did or what really happened they whined theselves out of here been discussed ad nauesm. "jay, BM, TS, and hillis" were all skill position players who have NOT been replaced. You said "BM has been replaced" - while Thomas seems to have good hands and good speed, he has not effectively replaced Marshall. He hasn't proven anything yet.



Y'all act like he cut the entire team when he has not.



sure having to replace almost the entire team yep that is all on him..


http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1107689&postcount=642

rcsodak
11-02-2010, 06:54 PM
What about the players the coach brings in?

Same thing, Mike. I'm not blind, nor stupid. But I doubt a coach brings in a player they don't see Something in.

Tned
11-02-2010, 06:55 PM
I'm curious how many more 'fire McD' threads can be started. Frankly, I'm tired of them. Ya'll wanted a new HC. Ya'll SAID you'd gladly sit idly by for 2-3years of losing. Ya'll SAID you wanted a young and dynamic HC.
I was one of the posters that called BS back then. Nobody wants to sit back and watch their team lose week in/out just for "change". I know I didn't want to.
But here we are. A new HC that has dumped the players of the past that didnt produce. And many of them arent even in the league today. Shows you just how low-talent they were. Now, he's into his 2nd year of adding a new philosophy...one thats been proven to win. And that takes TIME and TALENT. Not in 1yr. Not in 1.5yrs. Prolly not in 2. Having a draft of top 5 talent on the Dline/LB's COULD be just what the Dr ordered. NOW is the time to show SUPPORT for Bowlen/Xanders/McD. Why? Because for all your WISHING, there is NO magic cureall and having another coach come in and changing things around is what screws up a team.
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I find ironic that when some bitch and moan about a player or coach (current or former) it's not only "ok", but being a good fan. However, when bitching and moaning goes in another directon or counter to the fan-police approved direction, then it's wrong.

Things that make you go hmmmm.....

rcsodak
11-02-2010, 06:57 PM
We went 8-8 last year. That would normally have been okay...except that what happened was a 6-0 start when all the coaches were ahead of their opponents because nobody had enough game film to gameplan for our tendencies.

After we got booked? 2-8 finish, capped by tossing all remnants of Shanahan off the team and bidding adieu to our hand-picked DC.

So the new OL coach is a disaster, the new DC is far worse that the previous one, the talent isn't better than 2 years ago and the age on Defense means we're not building that for the future yet either.

We've regressed. Tampa Bay? They're making progress. The Lions? Progress, though not in the win column yet. The Rams? Progress. They took their lumps last year, instituted a plan, and are reaping rewards.

Us? Regressing. Getting worse. Losing.

That's the problem. Rebuilding is fine.

Tearing stuff down and throwing it around is not rebuilding, it's just making a mess.

~G

Somebody else said it in a different thread, and I agreed. This year's record SHOULD have happened last year. I'm not so sure people would be so up in arms to have a losing record his first year, and then build from there.
Fault McD all you want, but I think he though they COULD win last year, before the wheels fell off and Nolan's D got figured out.
Just my take.

spikerman
11-02-2010, 07:00 PM
Somebody else said it in a different thread, and I agreed. This year's record SHOULD have happened last year. I'm not so sure people would be so up in arms to have a losing record his first year, and then build from there.
Fault McD all you want, but I think he though they COULD win last year, before the wheels fell off and Nolan's D got figured out.
Just my take.

I'm not sure why McDaniels thought that. Most NFL talking heads did not. Even the casual fan knows that when you don't address a horrid defense and empty the offense of live bullets leaving it only firing blanks it doesn't bode well for a winning season.

rcsodak
11-02-2010, 07:00 PM
The proven system that wins is the one that drafts well, signs utility FA's on the cheap, and puts them in a situation to excel.

I havent seen any of that.

Any system will work great if you have the right players and coaches around. We have neither.

Bad coaches and 2nd string players gets you a top ten-top 5 draft pick.

Anyone not pissed off right now must have been really happy for the 8-8 years.

I think you'll find most of his FA's HAVE been gotten on the 'down low'. Remember the ....oops, nevermind.

And his draft picks haven't been that bad. Except for quinn/phonz, most have contributed, and are only in their 1st/2nd seasons. I'd say anybody calling them busts is jumping the gun.

rcsodak
11-02-2010, 07:06 PM
'Those who do not question their leaders when they're wrong are communists, and those who do are socialists, those who question them and deduce what is wrong are free-minded thinkers and the pillars of human society.'

Just give it up, because it's utterly childish to question someone's fanhood because they do not share another person's opinion, and it speaks volumes about such people who can only fallback on such an ignorant point of view. We have the right to ask 'Why?', 'How come?' or any other viable query in regards to anything, that's sort of the foundation of a free society, isn't it?

And yes, Mike Shanahan's tenure in Denver had become stale, his approach and even his overall philosophy came into question. Many of us did agree that a season or two of less then stellar competitiveness and a not so great record would be alright while the team added talent, grew and improved. But this is digression not improvement...when a head coach's moves are so bad that the national media begin to question him and also that of the owner of the team's own insanity? I would say it's a big damn problem!

I keep hearing the bullshit that McDaniels got rid of players that are no longer in the league, and I wish his supporters would get off it and realize that it is not so and thus it's not an argument of fact but of huffing and puffing, smoke n' mirrors crap. Almost all have found success elsewhere, while those brought in to replace them have themselves found none give a select few. I would trade most of McDaniels' rejects for those he had cut loose or traded. So that should brink no argument, because the majority of the fanbase would agree with that...the majority of the fanbase wants McDaniels fired, it's not a conspiracy theory where the whole world has it out to ruin him...he brought it on himself, period and end of story.

Did you miss the list of players? And the ones that are still in the league. How many are starters? How many would have fit in a 3-4? PBS?

And again, I'm NOT questioning fanhood. Just tired of the multitude of identical threads saying the same, drab, rhetoric.

And if this was a democracy, your "majority" might matter. But nice poli reference on this possibly historical day. :lol:

rcsodak
11-02-2010, 07:09 PM
To some extent yes. But the last few years we've had some great draft positions including extra picks. As good as McD was at manuevering the board he could of easily packaged a deal to move up in the top 10. Or better yet, stockpiled and gotten more for his buck. Either way, the last few years we have been in very good position to get players. The problem is the players we took may be of question.

But didn't all the smartypants say Bowlen was "broke"? :confused:

spikerman
11-02-2010, 07:09 PM
Did you miss the list of players? And the ones that are still in the league. How many are starters?

And yet the previous coach was able to win 8 games with them. Somehow I don't think the current one is going to get to 8 wins with this "improved" roster.

rcsodak
11-02-2010, 07:30 PM
I can get behind this RC, but in the end it is on his shoulders.

He is "building this team", which makes him responsible for it. Would you rather see 80 threads pointing fingers at players?

And as fans, I would think we should all be stuck on taking back the division, but thats just me, I think this team should win it all every year, unrealistic yes, but im a fan.

He addressed the D in the offseason with old Dline players, and that seems to mimic what we have dealt with for years. Instead of breaking up the O, which wasnt the biggest issue, he should have addressed the D from the get go. IMO

But thats another dead horse.

Well, Krug, I can appreciate what you're saying. But he "broke up" the O, and that's in the past. In the same token, how many 'outside the organization' HC's come into a new team and leave, as is? Shanny didn't. Kubes didn't. There's more, but you get my drift, hopefully.
Could he have maybe grabbed "better C's"? Sure. But Weiss wasn't available, Gruden wasn't available, nobody in their right mind wanted Martz, etc. He brought in those he knew and was comfortable with. So far, the offense has looked much improved in the passing game with a QB NOBODY wanted (noodle arm/5yd passer, etc). He drafted offensively this year. I suspect he didn't think he could 'fix' both sides of the ball in one draft. So he brought in FA's to 'bridge' the fix on the D side. I suspect he'll go that direction in the 2011 draft. I think most people would come to that conclusion if they'd rid their hate of the man and think coherently.
They'll get Doom back. Ayers was showing his 1st round worth. Add some studly meat on the Dline (look what Suh has done for Detroit!) and a 3down LB'r and depth elsewhere, and this team looks MUCH better to the naked eye.

And as mentioned earlier, this team has been in every game but 2.

I look for people to hopefully come back healthier after the bye and them getting their "issues" worked out and winning some games this 2nd half.

Last I looked, there's nothing wrong with being an OPTIMIST either. Seems those of us that are still clinging to that are being seen as either 'blind', ignorant, or "happy with the record". None are the truth. Just not hellbent on negativity.

rcsodak
11-02-2010, 07:41 PM
I find ironic that when some bitch and moan about a player or coach (current or former) it's not only "ok", but being a good fan. However, when bitching and moaning goes in another directon or counter to the fan-police approved direction, then it's wrong.

Things that make you go hmmmm.....

"hmmmm" is right! I've never bedeviled a current HC, especially to the point it's being taken currently.

I was calling out those that wanted MS gone..citing his record...non-losing seasons (albeit non-winning seasons), etc. I was stunned the day he was canned. He WAS the Broncos. But I moved on, as he did.

And ya'll can use the 'fan-police' rhetoric to your little hearts' desire. I already made clear my intent, after having some wording brought to my intention. It was addressed.
Now move along, Douglass. :salute:

:elefant:

rcsodak
11-02-2010, 07:43 PM
I'm not sure why McDaniels thought that. Most NFL talking heads did not. Even the casual fan knows that when you don't address a horrid defense and empty the offense of live bullets leaving it only firing blanks it doesn't bode well for a winning season.

Too bad the GUN firing those "live bullets" is sucking worse than his replacement.

~casual fan

rcsodak
11-02-2010, 07:48 PM
And yet the previous coach was able to win 8 games with them. Somehow I don't think the current one is going to get to 8 wins with this "improved" roster.

Sorry, spikey. But you lost me with the "8 games" he won. So you're saying you were happy with those historical wins? Those historical losses?
I wasn't. Bowlen wasn't. A change was made.

You don't rebuild a team with a different mentality/philosophy in a year, or even 2. It just doesn't happen, and especially, for the LONG term. If he had just brought in high dollar FA's, sure, they might have won more, But knowing the CBA was going to be trouble, he was wise enough NOT to do that.

Who's to say, in a different atmosphere, he wouldn't have done things differently?

spikerman
11-02-2010, 07:52 PM
Too bad the GUN firing those "live bullets" is sucking worse than his replacement.

~casual fan

True, but it's a team game and the objective is to win. That being said....

Chicago Bears 4-3
Denver Broncos 2-6

spikerman
11-02-2010, 07:55 PM
Sorry, spikey. But you lost me with the "8 games" he won. So you're saying you were happy with those historical wins? Those historical losses?
I wasn't. Bowlen wasn't. A change was made.

You don't rebuild a team with a different mentality/philosophy in a year, or even 2. It just doesn't happen, and especially, for the LONG term. If he had just brought in high dollar FA's, sure, they might have won more, But knowing the CBA was going to be trouble, he was wise enough NOT to do that.

Who's to say, in a different atmosphere, he wouldn't have done things differently?

I wasn't "happy" with 8-8, BUT I was happier with 8-8 than with the way this team is performing now.

I disagree that it can't happen that fast. Look at Morris in Tampa Bay. He's winning in year two and he doesn't have high priced free agents. It can be done. I wouldn't mind seeing McDaniels stick around for a few years, but only if a real personnel guy is brought in to evaluate talent.

Lonestar
11-02-2010, 08:27 PM
. Instead of breaking up the O, which wasnt the biggest issue, he should have addressed the D from the get go. IMO

But thats another dead horse.

But he was not brought in here to install his offense not run mikeys zbs verision of the wco. Anyone beleiving that he was hired ti fix the D only is smocking something.

If Pat would have wanted that he would have brought in spagnola.

So put that on Pat not Josh.


So let's out that weak crap to bed once and for all.
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Lonestar
11-02-2010, 08:38 PM
. Do you even know what competitive is? the broncos have been competitive in all but 2 games this year and that was vs oak and baltimore. other than that the broncos have competed and fought.

I suspect there are very few that will admit to this because of their .....
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I Eat Staples
11-02-2010, 09:13 PM
Same thing, Mike. I'm not blind, nor stupid. But I doubt a coach brings in a player they don't see Something in.

Oh I'm sure McD sees things in the players he brings in, he's just wrong about what he sees.

Watchthemiddle
11-03-2010, 02:07 AM
Sorry RC...I have not read the posts on this thread, but based on the title you must be talking about either Cutler or his paparrazi here so I withhold comment here.

TimTebow15MVP
11-03-2010, 04:51 AM
I wasn't "happy" with 8-8, BUT I was happier with 8-8 than with the way this team is performing now.

I disagree that it can't happen that fast. Look at Morris in Tampa Bay. He's winning in year two and he doesn't have high priced free agents. It can be done. I wouldn't mind seeing McDaniels stick around for a few years, but only if a real personnel guy is brought in to evaluate talent.

he also had some high draft pics

Lonestar
11-03-2010, 06:00 AM
See the answer in your own quote below.

"jay, BM, TS, and hillis" were all skill position players who have NOT been replaced. You said "BM has been replaced" - while Thomas seems to have good hands and good speed, he has not effectively replaced Marshall. He hasn't proven anything yet.





http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1107689&postcount=642

Perhaps you did not understand my posts.

He was left with crap past about 10 players. We had zero depth at any positions. Y'all expect him to have replaced all of that in 2 drafts.

BMs production has been more than replaced by others and DT really has not got started to replace his phyiscal presence.

The only one that is missed although no one is sure he could handled the constant change in the playbook weekly is Hillis.

Ts was as worthless as a teat on a boar since his lack of desire to block on the LOS and lousy attitude caused his departure. A receiving only TE is not needed in this spread offense at this time.

From what I can see we have had 3 non productive picks out of close to 20 so far. One of them seems to be working out in DET after the clamor here to dump him. So not so sure how bad the Smith draft really was afterall.

Since almost everyone says the draft is a crap shoot, not really sure why some have expected a winning record after 24 games.

Did Josh replace a lot of folks sure he did but it was not like there was a huge choice in the matter. 3 of the 4 you mentioned whined and moaned their way out of DEN, only Hillis might have been a keeper IMO.

I hope that clarifys my ideas on what migh have confused you. It not ask again.
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Krugan
11-03-2010, 10:04 AM
But he was not brought in here to install his offense not run mikeys zbs verision of the wco. Anyone beleiving that he was hired ti fix the D only is smocking something.

If Pat would have wanted that he would have brought in spagnola.

So put that on Pat not Josh.


So let's out that weak crap to bed once and for all.
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I could also claim that pretty much any coach could have taken 2 probowlers and a solid offensive line and worked with them to make his system work. we were arguably were a RB and 1 offensive lineman away from having a very well rounded offense 2 years ago. Now I would claim we are a RB 2 offensive lineman and at least 1 reciever and TE away from being a decent offense.

So no its not all on Pat, other than he made a choice to let Mcd move around, which in hindsight could very well be the most critical mistake.

it is on the guy on the sidelines as much as anyone, and you know as well as anyone, Pat wont get fired, Josh will.

Its pointless to argue this really, you see the issue from a different angle than I, the cold hard fact is, this team isnt winning, and ultimatley the HC takes the heat.

Northman
11-03-2010, 10:20 AM
I could also claim that pretty much any coach could have taken 2 probowlers and a solid offensive line and worked with them to make his system work. we were arguably were a RB and 1 offensive lineman away from having a very well rounded offense 2 years ago. Now I would claim we are a RB 2 offensive lineman and at least 1 reciever and TE away from being a decent offense.

So no its not all on Pat, other than he made a choice to let Mcd move around, which in hindsight could very well be the most critical mistake.

it is on the guy on the sidelines as much as anyone, and you know as well as anyone, Pat wont get fired, Josh will.

Its pointless to argue this really, you see the issue from a different angle than I, the cold hard fact is, this team isnt winning, and ultimatley the HC takes the heat.


Yea, maybe i should pull the ol' NoCal move here and ask "when was the last time a new HC came in and shipped off a pro bowl QB and pro bowl WR in his first two years?" :lol:

Ravage!!!
11-03-2010, 10:25 AM
Yea, maybe i should pull the ol' NoCal move here and ask "when was the last time a new HC came in and shipped off a pro bowl QB and pro bowl WR in his first two years?" :lol:

BINGO. Can anyone name me a coach that traded away a pro-bowl QB and a multi-100 catch WR (both in their 3-4 years in the NFL) in their first two seasons as a HC, had a stretch of 4-14, and KEPT their job?? Anyone? ANyone? DON'T fry out Google Looking!! :lol:

Thnikkaman
11-03-2010, 12:00 PM
BINGO. Can anyone name me a coach that traded away a pro-bowl QB and a multi-100 catch WR (both in their 3-4 years in the NFL) in their first two seasons as a HC, had a stretch of 4-14, and KEPT their job?? Anyone? ANyone? DON'T fry out Google Looking!! :lol:

What's the over/under on Cutler making the pro-bowl again?

rcsodak
11-03-2010, 12:07 PM
I wasn't "happy" with 8-8, BUT I was happier with 8-8 than with the way this team is performing now.

I disagree that it can't happen that fast. Look at Morris in Tampa Bay. He's winning in year two and he doesn't have high priced free agents. It can be done. I wouldn't mind seeing McDaniels stick around for a few years, but only if a real personnel guy is brought in to evaluate talent.

i think mcd has an eye for talent...just needs fine tuned. Not too many out there that dont FUBAR a pick. BB cant pick wr's. MS-DL.
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Northman
11-03-2010, 12:10 PM
What's the over/under on Cutler making the pro-bowl again?

Whats the over/under that Orton even makes one?

rcsodak
11-03-2010, 12:12 PM
Sorry RC...I have not read the posts on this thread, but based on the title you must be talking about either Cutler or his paparrazi here so I withhold comment here.
lol. HOW'D YOU GUESS! :lol:
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rcsodak
11-03-2010, 12:17 PM
Yea, maybe i should pull the ol' NoCal move here and ask "when was the last time a new HC came in and shipped off a pro bowl QB and pro bowl WR in his first two years?" :lol:
you act like they were bad moves. Lol
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rcsodak
11-03-2010, 12:20 PM
BINGO. Can anyone name me a coach that traded away a pro-bowl QB and a multi-100 catch WR (both in their 3-4 years in the NFL) in their first two seasons as a HC, had a stretch of 4-14, and KEPT their job?? Anyone? ANyone? DON'T fry out Google Looking!! :lol:
LMAO. And I'M called a 'copy-cat' poster!

:D
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spikerman
11-03-2010, 05:03 PM
Perhaps you did not understand my posts.

He was left with crap past about 10 players. We had zero depth at any positions. Y'all expect him to have replaced all of that in 2 drafts.

BMs production has been more than replaced by others and DT really has not got started to replace his phyiscal presence.

The only one that is missed although no one is sure he could handled the constant change in the playbook weekly is Hillis.

Ts was as worthless as a teat on a boar since his lack of desire to block on the LOS and lousy attitude caused his departure. A receiving only TE is not needed in this spread offense at this time.

From what I can see we have had 3 non productive picks out of close to 20 so far. One of them seems to be working out in DET after the clamor here to dump him. So not so sure how bad the Smith draft really was afterall.

Since almost everyone says the draft is a crap shoot, not really sure why some have expected a winning record after 24 games.

Did Josh replace a lot of folks sure he did but it was not like there was a huge choice in the matter. 3 of the 4 you mentioned whined and moaned their way out of DEN, only Hillis might have been a keeper IMO.

I hope that clarifys my ideas on what migh have confused you. It not ask again.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forumsMaybe I just took your post too literally. If that's the case, my mistake. You seem totally enamored with all of the moves McDaniels has made. In my opinion, if he was really that successful at replacing the players and building the talent he wouldn't have a worse record than the team he chose to replace.

spikerman
11-03-2010, 05:05 PM
he also had some high draft pics

And the Broncos have had MULTIPLE first round picks. They were either used on "projects", wasted, or traded away with very little to show for it in my opinion. Like I've said before (maybe in another thread), I wouldn't be opposed to giving McDaniels more time as HC if the Bowlen would hire a competent personnel guy to handle the roster because there doesn't appear to be one in the front office currently.

slim
11-03-2010, 05:06 PM
What's the over/under on Cutler making the pro-bowl again?

1.

I will take the under.

Lonestar
11-03-2010, 05:12 PM
If!!! We are 2-6. You are what your record says you are. I thought we were an 8-8 team. I no longer think that. I'm afraid we are going to go another 2-6 after getting beat by the Raiders and the 49's. Good teams overcome and we don't. I am extremely dissappointed.

Is it teh end of year all ready Did not know we forfeited the last 8 games.

If we are not 8-8 then whine about it till then what is it accomplishing.

I do not understand why anyone thinks this is or should be a good team. We have some talent but he have zero depth and have had since about 05.

So some one does not go off on the Josh got rid of all the talent do not bother.

the only one that was gone last year was jay and NO ONE can tell me he would have adapted to the scheme any faster than Orton did. Might have been a bit more mobile, but then he may have gotten his ankle injured the same way Orton did.

The only talent lost from this team has been replaced or IMO we are better in named starters than we were last year.

Northman
11-03-2010, 05:16 PM
I do not understand why anyone thinks this is or should be a good team.


Was it not you who predicted at least a 9-7 season?

http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=172785&highlight=Season+predictions

We would have to make a serious run to even match that right now. Especially considering the supposed easy wins we were supposed to have the last 2 weeks.

Ravage!!!
11-03-2010, 06:36 PM
What's the over/under on Cutler making the pro-bowl again?

whats that have a single thing to do with anything?

dogfish
11-03-2010, 06:48 PM
I do not understand why anyone thinks this is or should be a good team.


isn't that the objective?


:confused:

Krugan
11-03-2010, 06:53 PM
JR please tell me you didnt just ask why anyone should think this should be a good team...

I think people should ask why this isnt a good team.

wow

claymore
11-03-2010, 07:05 PM
Is it teh end of year all ready Did not know we forfeited the last 8 games.

If we are not 8-8 then whine about it till then what is it accomplishing.

I do not understand why anyone thinks this is or should be a good team. We have some talent but he have zero depth and have had since about 05.

So some one does not go off on the Josh got rid of all the talent do not bother.

the only one that was gone last year was jay and NO ONE can tell me he would have adapted to the scheme any faster than Orton did. Might have been a bit more mobile, but then he may have gotten his ankle injured the same way Orton did.

The only talent lost from this team has been replaced or IMO we are better in named starters than we were last year.

I agree. Until we get solid coaching and playmakers we are SCREWED!

DAFT!

Dean
11-03-2010, 07:56 PM
Is it teh end of year all ready Did not know we forfeited the last 8 games.

If we are not 8-8 then whine about it till then what is it accomplishing.

I do not understand why anyone thinks this is or should be a good team. We have some talent but he have zero depth and have had since about 05.

So some one does not go off on the Josh got rid of all the talent do not bother.

the only one that was gone last year was jay and NO ONE can tell me he would have adapted to the scheme any faster than Orton did. Might have been a bit more mobile, but then he may have gotten his ankle injured the same way Orton did.


Some of us thought this might make us better.




#99 07-22-2010, 11:53 AM
Jrwiz
Tim says Bring It On! Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: West Texas
Adopted Bronco: Tebow, Thomas, Decker
Posts: 28,866




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So did we get that tanturm out of our system yet.

No one here was in the room when the calls came in.

Josh did not try and trade jay a week after getting here as Jhil was trying to insinuate.

Now are we clear in that?



Why are we going to be better.

More time in the scheme.

Better players coming in ESPCIALLY DL transfusion.

Interesting Draft choices to replace or reinforce players.

Youth of Offense

Rebuilding an OLINE that has needed it for almost a decade. (as Redzone perfomance proves).

One more year exprience in playbook for QB as well as SIMMS is gone.
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turftoad
11-04-2010, 10:49 AM
The only talent lost from this team has been replaced or IMO we are better in named starters than we were last year.

Oh, well that explains why we are sooooo much better. :tsk: :tsk:

Superchop 7
11-04-2010, 03:09 PM
I TOLD YOU SO !

There, I said it.

dogfish
11-04-2010, 03:39 PM
I TOLD YOU SO !

There, I said it.

do you feel better now?


:heh: