Come on already, put Tebow in!!!

[lgenf]

I know I only became a Bronco fan this year, and it's only because of TT, but come on already, this is a joke.

All the Orton defenders here is the only thing I have for you.

QB's should lead the team, should be a leader on the team not just put up great stats.

Let's talk about those great stats, when you are behind in almost every game you get to throw the ball alot, ALOT. It also does not help that the running game is not there right now, so what is your only option, pass plays, ok so he is getting good stats, stats don't win games, otherwise Dallas would be 6-1 not 1-6.

TT is a leader, always has been, even as a freshman at Florida, and if you needed any info as to if he can lead in the Pros, at the draft and mini camps and basically everywhere he goes, he has other Pros asking for his autograph (not my info, I am actually reporting what they constantly say on ESPN) it absolutely boggles the reporters minds that other Pros want to shake his hand or take a picture or get an autograph.

The guy is way more mobile a QB then Orton and with no running game and a O line that isn't quite holding the pocket on every pass play, someone who can run and isn't afraid to run is a good option.

Come on already coach, put him in..........

[I Eat Staples]

Unfortunately, having good leadership and being popular isn't going to help Tebow read defenses or throw the ball with consistent accuracy and touch.

Also, when is the last time a running QB led a team to the superbowl, if ever?

[slim]

Someone needs to tell jags that dupe accounts are against the CoC.

[Broncolingus]

Someone needs to tell jags that dupe accounts are against the CoC.

:lol:

[topscribe]

Someone needs to tell jags that dupe accounts are against the CoC.

That was my first thought, until I saw the guy's join date is back in April.

Must be Jags' roomie . . .

-----

[JaxBroncoGirl]

What can it hurt? The guy has a point. Look at our record, then again, keep Orton in and the dude is gonna get seriously hurt. Do you Orton lovers want that? Why not give TT a try? We as a team cannot read defenses at this point can we? Just sayin..............

[lgenf]

no I am not Jags, no I do not know him or am any kind of buddy of his.


I too got fed up with his postings and message


now we are clearly getting into the second half of the season and on a bye week, if your gonna try anything this year, this is the week to do it.

Yes, as I mentioned I only came to the broncos by way of TT, and had he gone to another team I would have probably been a fan of them also, I admit it. I don't live in CO, never have, have driven through it a few times, beautiful state. I live in South Florida, been a Miami fan my whole life and went to the University of Florida, all that being said I want to see the team do better.

I do not have any delusions that TT is going to have a 2nd year like Marino did, so that is out the window also.

They have been working on his motion and reads all pre-season and what ever work he is getting with the QB coaches and team so far this season so let's see it.

I have to be totally honest, what are all you people thinking is going to happen by benching orton, we may lose a game or two or 6? we are on that path now, so what else? oh, we won't get much to trade Orton for? are you kidding, everyone knows what he can do, and Arizona will probably give up a 2nd round pick this year for him just to get rid of what they have going on out there.

he is a natural born leader, is a proven winner and an extreme talent, so if you know he is going to through a couple of stupid picks and we may lose a game or two, isn't that what Orton is doing now?

has orton thrown picks this year with horrible results at really bad times in the games?

Ok so he has good stats, great, those are not winning games

[Denver Native (Carol)]

What can it hurt? The guy has a point. Look at our record, then again, keep Orton in and the dude is gonna get seriously hurt. Do you Orton lovers want that? Why not give TT a try? We as a team cannot read defenses at this point can we? Just sayin..............

I would disagree that they can't read defenses - you don't complete many passes, if you can not read defenses. How is putting Tebow in going to correct the bad run blocking/pass blocking, and before you say, let Tebow run the ball, you are then taking the chance of him getting seriously hurt.

[LRtagger]

What can it hurt?

I bet that's what the Texans said when they drafted and played Carr.

"What can it hurt. We are rebuilding anyways. At least this will get Carr some reps and some live game experience."

[lgenf]

I would disagree that they can't read defenses - you don't complete many passes, if you can not read defenses. How is putting Tebow in going to correct the bad run blocking/pass blocking, and before you say, let Tebow run the ball, you are then taking the chance of him getting seriously hurt.

he's at least a threat to run the ball when protection breaks down.

And, who is saying that TT can't read a defense? we have no idea where his talent level is at right now, none of us are at practice.

Hey, maybe TT isn't any better then what he was in preseason, but I am willing to bet that he is, just knowing his work ethic and track record.

[JaxBroncoGirl]

I would disagree that they can't read defenses - you don't complete many passes, if you can not read defenses. How is putting Tebow in going to correct the bad run blocking/pass blocking, and before you say, let Tebow run the ball, you are then taking the chance of him getting seriously hurt.

I was talking about our OL cannot read defenses. I do not want any QB hurt, but at this point someone needs to command the team on the field. Why is it such a stretch to think TT cannot do this? Why?

At this point in our season, we should try anything........

[LRtagger]

And, who is saying that TT can't read a defense? we have no idea where his talent level is at right now, none of us are at practice.


I would say the guy who makes the decisions as to who plays probably has a pretty decent grasp on where Tebow is and if he's ready to play or not.

[GEM]

I have a question for ya....

Who on our roster is going to block Tebow's blind side? Or is he just that good that he doesn't need protection? :confused:

[lgenf]

I would say the guy who makes the decisions as to who plays probably has a pretty decent grasp on where Tebow is and if he's ready to play or not.

and I would say, that same guy is holding him off until he can make the best impact possible, fully ready to go out and handle it.

my point is simply, they probably cannot afford to wait that long.

going 4-14 or 5-13 or anything close to that just sticking with Orton and trying to get TT up to speed in practice and coaching isn't going to help the team any, put him out there and learn on the fly, it seems to be working for Bradford and others, and it doesn't work for all I get that, but really get something positive going already.

[I Eat Staples]

What can it hurt? The guy has a point. Look at our record, then again, keep Orton in and the dude is gonna get seriously hurt. Do you Orton lovers want that? Why not give TT a try? We as a team cannot read defenses at this point can we? Just sayin..............

Orton does a fine job reading defenses.

But you know, after thinking about it, maybe putting Tebow in isn't such a bad idea. We're not going anywhere this year anyway, so Tebow might as well be exposed as a fraud now rather than later. No point in wasting potentially productive seasons realizing he can't play in the NFL. The only problem I have with this, is that once McD and the Tebow homers realize he's a bust, it's probably too late to keep Orton. So if we bench Orton, we end up with no QB of the future anyway.

[GEM]

and I would say, that same guy is holding him off until he can make the best impact possible, fully ready to go out and handle it.

my point is simply, they probably cannot afford to wait that long.

going 4-14 or 5-13 or anything close to that just sticking with Orton and trying to get TT up to speed in practice and coaching isn't going to help the team any, put him out there and learn on the fly, it seems to be working for Bradford and others, and it doesn't work for all I get that, but really get something positive going already.

Tebow isn't Bradford. That's why Tebow was mocked to go 4th or 5th round and Bradford was taken #1 overall.

I'm not down on Tebow, but he's our future. It's no good to throw him out there with no RG or RT with the limited skills he has for an NFL offense.

[BigDaddyBronco]

Take the approach the Packers did with Aaron Rodgers. Give him 2-3 full seasons to learn the game before you throw him to the wolves. It's not like we are going anywhere quickly so why get him killed now. Maybe if we are in the same boat next year and he has progressed as a QB.

[BigDaddyBronco]

Take the approach the Packers did with Aaron Rodgers. Give him 2-3 full seasons to learn the game before you throw him to the wolves. It's not like we are going anywhere quickly so why get him killed now. Maybe if we are in the same boat next year and he has progressed as a QB.

[lgenf]

I have a question for ya....

Who on our roster is going to block Tebow's blind side? Or is he just that good that he doesn't need protection? :confused:

are you thinking that TT is not at least as tough at Orton?

he is not some kind of china doll back there, he is going to get hit, sacked, etc etc, that is part of the game

did you think that if he sat out the entire year, that no one would ever get to him next year, or that some miracle would happen next year and the oline would stop every person on every play?

look i don't want the guy to get killed back there, but orton seems to stand upright in the pocket enough to get all those STATS that the Orton lovers seem to want to post in every thread about the offense, so is TT going to have it any worse?

[GEM]

are you thinking that TT is not at least as tough at Orton?

he is not some kind of china doll back there, he is going to get hit, sacked, etc etc, that is part of the game

did you think that if he sat out the entire year, that no one would ever get to him next year, or that some miracle would happen next year and the oline would stop every person on every play?

look i don't want the guy to get killed back there, but orton seems to stand upright in the pocket enough to get all those STATS that the Orton lovers seem to want to post in every thread about the offense, so is TT going to have it any worse?

Orton has Clady protecting his blindside. All the sacks right now are coming up the middle. You put left handed Tebow in there, he will be protected by Beadles. That's not a good thing.

BTW...I am not an Orton lover, I'm just not a Tebow disciple either. ;)

[Denver Native (Carol)]

WHY, when someone states that Orton IS NOT THE PROBLEM, they get labeled an "ORTON LOVER"?????? Common sense should tell people that Orton is NOT the problem - yes, he has thrown a few interceptions, he has fumbled a few times - ANY QB has/does/will do that. The QB position right now is NOT the problem, and I don't believe making a change will do anything to change that.

[topscribe]

are you thinking that TT is not at least as tough at Orton?

he is not some kind of china doll back there, he is going to get hit, sacked, etc etc, that is part of the game

did you think that if he sat out the entire year, that no one would ever get to him next year, or that some miracle would happen next year and the oline would stop every person on every play?

look i don't want the guy to get killed back there, but orton seems to stand upright in the pocket enough to get all those STATS that the Orton lovers seem to want to post in every thread about the offense, so is TT going to have it any worse?

Funny - a Tebow groupie referring to "Orton lovers." :pound:

-----

[G_Money]

What Gem said.

We don't have a RT worth a damn. That's where Tim is gonna get killed from. You could switch Clady to the right side, but I'd want him to have an offseason to get his footwork right. Everything is mirror-opposite from footwork to hand usage and we don't need our line performing even worse than they already are.

Tebow is tougher than Orton, sure, but I seem to remember Tebow getting beat up in the pre-season. He's not immune to damage.

And the quickest way to screw up a young QB is to accelerate the clock in his head because he isn't getting the time in the pocket he should get.

~G

[lgenf]

Tebow isn't Bradford.

your right, he was more successful, and on a team that was not 1-15 the year before

and if he wasn't going to the broncos, he was going to the Pats to sit behind Brady a leader and premier QB ( I hate the Pats)

he's going to do fine, so start the clock

[G_Money]

Common sense should tell people that Orton is NOT the problem - yes, he has thrown a few interceptions, he has fumbled a few times - ANY QB has/does/will do that. The QB position right now is NOT the problem, and I don't believe making a change will do anything to change that.

Drafting Tebow told fans that Orton was a short-timer, especially since he only was under contract through 2010 at the time. So that means at some point during the season Tebow would take over, unless we were winning a lot of games.

We're not.

But now Orton has had an additional year added to his deal (at 8 million dollars) and has improved his performance in this offense (partly due to a useless running game).

So is Orton our QB for next year - whenever that year of football gets played - or not?

If he's not, then at some point in a lost season Tebow should become the starter. Why spend time trying to "win games" with Orton when Orton's not gonna be here next year anyway?

If Orton's gonna be next year's starter as well, then Tebow can sit and wait just fine for his shot in late 2011/2012.

That's the call that has to be made. It's not about Orton. It's about who is the QB of the future for this team, and how long that future is for.

I still wouldn't put Tebow in to be killed in games right now, but if he's the guy for next year then at some point you add an extra blocking TE on the right side (didn't we draft one of those REALLY HIGH?) to help the RT protect Tebow's blind side and go for it.

But that would require knowledge of a coherent plan, and so far I haven't seen any indication we have one of those. :coffee:

~G

[GEM]

your right, he was more successful, and on a team that was not 1-15 the year before

and if he wasn't going to the broncos, he was going to the Pats to sit behind Brady a leader and premier QB ( I hate the Pats)

he's going to do fine, so start the clock

His TEAM was more successful. ;) Tebow didn't do all the Gator stuff all by himself.

We agree on hating the Pats. :lol:

Have you seen what happens to NFL qb's who have no protection on their blindside? This isn't a spread offense. This isn't college. Defenses don't play like they do in college.

Put Tebow in with no protection against the likes of Jared Allen, Freeney, Lewis, etc....they will eat him for lunch.

I'd rather have him healthy than getting his head torn off by some guy trying to put his head on a skewer for bragging rights. He already has a price on his head. Ray Lewis already said it. Why do them the favor of serving him up on a platter with no RG or RT.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

your right, he was more successful, and on a team that was not 1-15 the year before

and if he wasn't going to the broncos, he was going to the Pats to sit behind Brady a leader and premier QB ( I hate the Pats)

he's going to do fine, so start the clock

You need to do your homework - he was going to be drafted by Buffalo, and that is when Coach McD made the moves he did to get Tebow before Buffalo did.

[BigDaddyBronco]

Why destroy a young QB's confidence by throwing him to the wolves before he is ready? It's not like he isn't benefiting this season by sitting out, going through film and practice. It worked for the Packers and Rodgers, it can work for us and Tebow.

[BORDERLINE]

WHY, when someone states that Orton IS NOT THE PROBLEM, they get labeled an "ORTON LOVER"?????? Common sense should tell people that Orton is NOT the problem - yes, he has thrown a few interceptions, he has fumbled a few times - ANY QB has/does/will do that. The QB position right now is NOT the problem, and I don't believe making a change will do anything to change that.

I agree
but i also believe that Orton is not the answer. And as the season just keeps getting worst I believe Tebow should get some playtime. We are not gonna go on a 6 game winning streak and get back into the fold here. Our broncos aren't very good, so Tebow needs to get his reps. If Colt McCoy can come out with the browns and lead them to a win in N.O then Tebow could be a tremendous spark to this awful offense. You can kind of relate this to the Bucs coach. Last year his team was stinking it up. One year under the belt experience and look his team is performing for him. And he is on the come up.No one wanted to have a throw away season but we got one in our hands

[Denver Native (Carol)]

I agree
but i also believe that Orton is not the answer. And as the season just keeps getting worst I believe Tebow should get some playtime. We are not gonna go on a 6 game winning streak and get back into the fold here. Our broncos aren't very good, so Tebow needs to get his reps. If Colt McCoy can come out with the browns and lead them to a win in N.O then Tebow could be a tremendous spark to this awful offense. You can kind of relate this to the Bucs coach. Last year his team was stinking it up. One year under the belt experience and look his team is performing for him. And he is on the come up.No one wanted to have a throw away season but we got one in our hands

Right now, it does not look like we will go on a 6 game winning streak, but until the games are played, no one knows that. If it comes down to us being eliminated from winning the division, then I see no reason why Tebow should not play.

[BORDERLINE]

Why destroy a young QB's confidence by throwing him to the wolves before he is ready? It's not like he isn't benefiting this season by sitting out, going through film and practice. It worked for the Packers and Rodgers, it can work for us and Tebow.

Rodgers was playing behind FARVE. If he had retired the first time Rodgers would have had to play. It wasn't the packers choice to play Rodgers 3 years into his career, it was brett's indecision. Josh Freeman looks like his confidence was destroyed after going 2-14 the year previous. Tebow isn't playing behind a Farve ,but more like a Matt Hasselbeck. If we where winning i would say maybe wait it out the year , but we are not and worst we are getting man handled by sub-par teams. You gotta let the kid play

[lgenf]

Right now, it does not look like we will go on a 6 game winning streak, but until the games are played, no one knows that. If it comes down to us being eliminated from winning the division, then I see no reason why Tebow should not play.

what makes sense about this quote?

WE R NOT WINNING NOW, what matter is it, if the Broncos are officially eliminated from the playoffs or not? that actually assumes that TT will not win a game, and that Orton actually can and will win some of the remaining

both QBs stand a chance at losing every game from now until the end of the season, and both stand a chance at winning some.

Your quote makes it sound like you are pulling a proven winner of a QB out of the huddle for Ryan Leaf

what is Orton doing to WIN GAMES?????????????

[cuzz4169]

I would say the guy who makes the decisions as to who plays probably has a pretty decent grasp on where Tebow is and if he's ready to play or not.

I doubt that!! I've watched 2 years now on his decisions!

[BroncoStud]

Unfortunately, having good leadership and being popular isn't going to help Tebow read defenses or throw the ball with consistent accuracy and touch.

Also, when is the last time a running QB led a team to the superbowl, if ever?

Why the assumption Tebow isn't capable of passing? He led the NCAA in passer efficiency...

[BroncoStud]

Take the approach the Packers did with Aaron Rodgers. Give him 2-3 full seasons to learn the game before you throw him to the wolves. It's not like we are going anywhere quickly so why get him killed now. Maybe if we are in the same boat next year and he has progressed as a QB.

The Packers were held hostage by Brett Favre, a Hall of Fame QB. Had Brett retired Aaron's rookie season you can bet anything Rodgers would have been starting.

[BigDaddyBronco]

Rodgers was playing behind FARVE. If he had retired the first time Rodgers would have had to play. It wasn't the packers choice to play Rodgers 3 years into his career, it was brett's indecision. Josh Freeman looks like his confidence was destroyed after going 2-14 the year previous. Tebow isn't playing behind a Farve ,but more like a Matt Hasselbeck. If we where winning i would say maybe wait it out the year , but we are not and worst we are getting man handled by sub-par teams. You gotta let the kid play

NFL history is littered with 1st round busts. How many are due to starting too early? Who knows, but it rarely seems to help. That being said, I think Tebow's psyche is closer to a Peyton Manning than a Ryan Leaf, so it might work, but it would be ugly.

[BigDaddyBronco]

The Packers were held hostage by Brett Favre, a Hall of Fame QB. Had Brett retired Aaron's rookie season you can bet anything Rodgers would have been starting.

No doubt, but Rodgers was probably helped by sitting on the bench those years. Learning and waiting his turn.

[BroncoStud]

Rodgers was playing behind FARVE. If he had retired the first time Rodgers would have had to play. It wasn't the packers choice to play Rodgers 3 years into his career, it was brett's indecision. Josh Freeman looks like his confidence was destroyed after going 2-14 the year previous. Tebow isn't playing behind a Farve ,but more like a Matt Hasselbeck. If we where winning i would say maybe wait it out the year , but we are not and worst we are getting man handled by sub-par teams. You gotta let the kid play

Josh Freeman's having a pretty good year and is a surprise to me. He's really a pretty decent QB, shockingly.

[GEM]

Why the assumption Tebow isn't capable of passing? He led the NCAA in passer efficiency...

The NFL is NOT the NCAA. This is NOT a spread offense. The opponent's are NOT college teams. The defenses are NOT young men learning to play the game.


For the sake of saying, yes a change COULD spark something. It could also get Tebow killed because we don't have the talent on the offensive line to protect him getting used to the speed of the NFL.

I mean, it could work out....but there's just as much likely that it could be disastrous. Is the long term of disastrous worth it?

[BroncoStud]

No doubt, but Rodgers was probably helped by sitting on the bench those years. Learning and waiting his turn.

No doubt. I would still like to see Tebow get some throwing packages. If you don't want to start him, give him a series or 2 each half. There is no reason not to get him on the field at least SOME. That way he isn't under a great deal of pressure and he's getting live reps.

[BroncoStud]

The NFL is NOT the NCAA. This is NOT a spread offense. The opponent's are NOT college teams. The defenses are NOT young men learning to play the game.


For the sake of saying, yes a change COULD spark something. It could also get Tebow killed because we don't have the talent on the offensive line to protect him getting used to the speed of the NFL.

I mean, it could work out....but there's just as much likely that it could be disastrous. Is the long term of disastrous worth it?

I'm aware that the NFL and the NCAA are not the same. However, we ARE a spread offense, sorry. We are a Harry-High-School spread attack. Bubble screens, quick hitches, quick cross/picks, shotgun running formations... We are as spread as the NFL gets.

I don't see any longterm negatives from playing Tebow once the season is over. If he gets banged up put Orton or Quinn in. If he doesn't prove to be an NFL starting talent, we know that is a need going forward. If it works out, draft and sign the pieces to go around him...

If nothing else start giving him live reps throwing the football, whether it's a series a game or more, get him involved. The guy is hungry.

[BORDERLINE]

NFL history is littered with 1st round busts. How many are due to starting too early? Who knows, but it rarely seems to help. That being said, I think Tebow's psyche is closer to a Peyton Manning than a Ryan Leaf, so it might work, but it would be ugly.

that's in every position tough. Gorge Foster at O-Line. Willie Middlebrooks at CB. Marcus Nash at WR. It will be ugly i'm sure, but nothing more ugly than a 59-14 beating and a loss to a 1-6 team.

[Ravage!!!]

No doubt, but Rodgers was probably helped by sitting on the bench those years. Learning and waiting his turn.

Maybe. But Rodgers will tell you straight up that he learned MUCH more in the one year of starting than he did in the three sitting.

Considering how many QBs have started their rookie years and succeeded, there really is no proof that sitting does anything more than just delaying them from having the same success had they got their experience earlier.

[GEM]

I'm aware that the NFL and the NCAA are not the same. However, we ARE a spread offense, sorry. We are a Harry-High-School spread attack. Bubble screens, quick hitches, quick cross/picks, shotgun running formations... We are as spread as the NFL gets.

I don't see any longterm negatives from playing Tebow once the season is over. If he gets banged up put Orton or Quinn in. If he doesn't prove to be an NFL starting talent, we know that is a need going forward. If it works out, draft and sign the pieces to go around him...

If nothing else start giving him live reps throwing the football, whether it's a series a game or more, get him involved. The guy is hungry.

I completely agree, he's hungry.....but have you seen who we have on the right side of the line. He will be lucky to walk off the field with his head still attached. It sucks, but I'd feel way more comfortable if I could trust the Line to protect him.

[topscribe]

what makes sense about this quote?

WE R NOT WINNING NOW, what matter is it, if the Broncos are officially eliminated from the playoffs or not? that actually assumes that TT will not win a game, and that Orton actually can and will win some of the remaining

both QBs stand a chance at losing every game from now until the end of the season, and both stand a chance at winning some.

Your quote makes it sound like you are pulling a proven winner of a QB out of the huddle for Ryan Leaf

what is Orton doing to WIN GAMES?????????????

I guess you mean "when is Orton going to win games"?

I would suppose that would be when he takes up golf or tennis. That is where
one single player wins or loses games.

On the football field, when Orton gets some help from his (non) supporting
cast, then his team will win some games . . .

-----

[Ravage!!!]

I guess you mean "when is Orton going to win games"?

I would suppose that would be when he takes up golf or tennis. That is where
one single player wins or loses games.

On the football field, when Orton gets some help from his (non) supporting
cast, then his team will win some games . . .

-----

Now top. We both know that this isn't how QBs are judged. Even you have to admit that Orton isn't good about putting the ball IN the endzone, and never really has been.

Is it time to switch to TT? :whoknows: I never thought he was a good choice to be an NFL QB to begin with. But we will have to know what we have in him, eventually.

[JaxBroncoGirl]

Hey Staples, no need to be so rude when it comes to Tebow. We are all short fused because of the last 2 weeks. All some of us are saying is mix it up a bit, give TT a chance. Orton is getting battered back there and I think we are just reaching as fans for a change to WIN. I realize you have not liked Tebow since he was drafted and I hope for the Broncos that TT will prove you wrong. Go Broncos!

[Jake Klug]

what makes sense about this quote?

WE R NOT WINNING NOW, what matter is it, if the Broncos are officially eliminated from the playoffs or not? that actually assumes that TT will not win a game, and that Orton actually can and will win some of the remaining

both QBs stand a chance at losing every game from now until the end of the season, and both stand a chance at winning some.

Your quote makes it sound like you are pulling a proven winner of a QB out of the huddle for Ryan Leaf

what is Orton doing to WIN GAMES?????????????

You obviously havent been paying attention to his late game heroics.

[BORDERLINE]

Right now, it does not look like we will go on a 6 game winning streak, but until the games are played, no one knows that. If it comes down to us being eliminated from winning the division, then I see no reason why Tebow should not play.

I love your attitude. I wish i still had that kind of hope for this season. Even after the raider massacre i was telling people that won't happen again and the train will get back on the track. This London game just shot all those hopes down. We aren't very good. And our record reflects that.

[cuzz4169]

OK how does everyone here know that Tebow is not ready? BC Kiper and Mcshay said so...those two guys are clowns...for every na sayer there is someone who backs Tebow. How many of you REALLY watched Tim Tebow in college not just highlights? First im a gator fan and broncos fan all my life...I have watched every florida gators game for god knows how long so I have seen Tebow play every game...To say he cant throw in the pros to say he cant read a defense to say his accuracy is no good is as bad as kiper and mcshay saying Andre Woodson is the #1 prospect at qb...I have been involved in football for 25yrs as a player a coach and a college scout...For the person who said tim tebow isnt bradford your right...hes better than him..A lot of you are over analyzing tebow....I really think a lot of you have no clue how good this guy was in college or the special things he does. he wasnt just good at the college level in the pac 10, big 12, acc, but in the best defensive conference in the country the sec.

We need a playmaker on offense...we are 2-6 orton has great stats but so what...i would take vince youngs stats with wins any day. having Tebow at qb helps the run game...bc now as an OLB or DE you have to watch the edge and not crash. Im for starting tebow now (i shouldnt be bc i traded away manning and im using orton in fantasy lol)....but let the kid play I think Mcdaniels knows his job is on the line and he wants to say well look at the #s orton had...he wont be a head coach again for a while if he gets fired but that alone will get him an OC or QB coach job. I 100% believe Tim Tebow will make every Denver fan excited when he gets his chance to play if its now or later this kid will be our guy.

[slim]

That was my first thought, until I saw the guy's join date is back in April.

Must be Jags' roomie . . .

-----

Jags is smarter than that.

He has at least four accounts laying in wait.

[Jake Klug]

OK how does everyone here know that Tebow is not ready? BC Kiper and Mcshay said so...those two guys are clowns...for every na sayer there is someone who backs Tebow. How many of you REALLY watched Tim Tebow in college not just highlights? First im a gator fan and broncos fan all my life...I have watched every florida gators game for god knows how long so I have seen Tebow play every game...To say he cant throw in the pros to say he cant read a defense to say his accuracy is no good is as bad as kiper and mcshay saying Andre Woodson is the #1 prospect at qb...I have been involved in football for 25yrs as a player a coach and a college scout...For the person who said tim tebow isnt bradford your right...hes better than him..A lot of you are over analyzing tebow....I really think a lot of you have no clue how good this guy was in college or the special things he does. he wasnt just good at the college level in the pac 10, big 12, acc, but in the best defensive conference in the country the sec.

We need a playmaker on offense...we are 2-6 orton has great stats but so what...i would take vince youngs stats with wins any day. having Tebow at qb helps the run game...bc now as an OLB or DE you have to watch the edge and not crash. Im for starting tebow now (i shouldnt be bc i traded away manning and im using orton in fantasy lol)....but let the kid play I think Mcdaniels knows his job is on the line and he wants to say well look at the #s orton had...he wont be a head coach again for a while if he gets fired but that alone will get him an OC or QB coach job. I 100% believe Tim Tebow will make every Denver fan excited when he gets his chance to play if its now or later this kid will be our guy.

I was skeptical about Tebow. But after watching him in the pre-season, the game doesnt really seem to be too fast for him the way it is for a lot of rookies. I was impressed with what I saw. The regular season is different from the preseason as we all know, so he'd take some lumps but thats part of the territory. But it would be better to do that this year. And if Tim performs well, it would give people something to feel good about in the future. And maybe it could intrigue Gruden enough to coach in Denver.

The only good thing about the way things are now, is that a once divided fan base has suddenly been reunited for the most part. The unfortunate part though is that its because Denver is currently in the most bleak situation people can remember.

[topscribe]

Now top. We both know that this isn't how QBs are judged. Even you have to admit that Orton isn't good about putting the ball IN the endzone, and never really has been.

Is it time to switch to TT? :whoknows: I never thought he was a good choice to be an NFL QB to begin with. But we will have to know what we have in him, eventually.

Well actually, yes he was pretty good at getting the ball into the end zone before
coming to the Broncos. That was thoroughly discussed during one of those sick
Cutler/Orton debates. The RZ was one of Kyle's strengths, in fact. To me, that
serves as a commentary on the state of affairs of Kyle's supporting cast here . . .

-----

[BORDERLINE]

It could also get Tebow killed because we don't have the talent on the offensive line to protect him getting used to the speed of the NFL.

I mean, it could work out....but there's just as much likely that it could be disastrous. Is the long term of disastrous worth it?

If it will get tebow killed why is orton still playing. Orton mobility is non-existent he can move around escape one defender but then it's sack time. tebow could help the O-line by moving around back there like Big Ben in Pitt. And Tebow is a grown azz man 6'ft. something 240 something ...He can and should be able to take a hit plus give some as well.

[slim]

It's time.

I want to see what the kid can do. What do we have to lose?

[Lonestar]

no I am not Jags, no I do not know him or am any kind of buddy of his.


I too got fed up with his postings and message


now we are clearly getting into the second half of the season and on a bye week, if your gonna try anything this year, this is the week to do it.

Yes, as I mentioned I only came to the broncos by way of TT, and had he gone to another team I would have probably been a fan of them also, I admit it. I don't live in CO, never have, have driven through it a few times, beautiful state. I live in South Florida, been a Miami fan my whole life and went to the University of Florida, all that being said I want to see the team do better.

I do not have any delusions that TT is going to have a 2nd year like Marino did, so that is out the window also.

They have been working on his motion and reads all pre-season and what ever work he is getting with the QB coaches and team so far this season so let's see it.

I have to be totally honest, what are all you people thinking is going to happen by benching orton, we may lose a game or two or 6? we are on that path now, so what else? oh, we won't get much to trade Orton for? are you kidding, everyone knows what he can do, and Arizona will probably give up a 2nd round pick this year for him just to get rid of what they have going on out there.

he is a natural born leader, is a proven winner and an extreme talent, so if you know he is going to through a couple of stupid picks and we may lose a game or two, isn't that what Orton is doing now?

has orton thrown picks this year with horrible results at really bad times in the games?

Ok so he has good stats, great, those are not winning games

neither are they losing games for us. he is the only one keeping us in most of the games.

Look at the real reason we are losing games.

Lack of rushing D very little pass rush and no running game.

NONE of which are Ortons fault.

Penalties at critical points yesterday two back breakers for TD's called back those tow score and it would have been a totally different game IMHO.

[Ravage!!!]

Well actually, yes he was pretty good at getting the ball into the end zone before
coming to the Broncos. That was thoroughly discussed during one of those sick
Cutler/Orton debates. The RZ was one of Kyle's strengths, in fact. To me, that
serves as a commentary on the state of affairs of Kyle's supporting cast here . . .

-----

I'm going to have to borrow one of your lines, here. "I don't care what he did when somewhere else." Orton is NOT good at putting the ball in the endzone, especially when the defense allows points in the second half.

Not going to get into this debate again. We know where each other stands.

[Ravage!!!]

neither are they losing games for us. he is the only one keeping us in most of the games.

Look at the real reason we are losing games.

Lack of rushing D very little pass rush and no running game.

NONE of which are Ortons fault.

Penalties at critical points yesterday two back breakers for TD's called back those tow score and it would have been a totally different game IMHO.

Huh :confused: Seems this is the EXACT opposite of what you were saying just two small years ago. Go figure :lol:

[topscribe]

I'm going to have to borrow one of your lines, here. "I don't care what he did when somewhere else." Orton is NOT good at putting the ball in the endzone, especially when the defense allows points in the second half.

Not going to get into this debate again. We know where each other stands.

No, I'm just saying that, since Kyle was strong in the RZ at Chicago, I would like to
know why the problems here. Please get yourself out of the petty debate mode
and try to understand my point . . .

-----

[Ravage!!!]

No, I'm just saying that, since Kyle was strong in the RZ at Chicago, I would like to
know why the problems here. Please get yourself out of the petty debate mode
and try to understand my point . . .

-----

I understood your point and responded to your point. I don't CARE what he did elsewhere. Thats what I've heard you say about many players. It ONLY matters what they do here. Orton is NOT good about putting the ball in the endzone.

PLEASE try to get out of the petty defense of Orton mode.

[BroncoStud]

I completely agree, he's hungry.....but have you seen who we have on the right side of the line. He will be lucky to walk off the field with his head still attached. It sucks, but I'd feel way more comfortable if I could trust the Line to protect him.

No kidding. The right side of the line is bad, really, really bad. Maybe we can just roll Timmy left every time. :D

[BroncoStud]

I guess you mean "when is Orton going to win games"?

I would suppose that would be when he takes up golf or tennis. That is where
one single player wins or loses games.

On the football field, when Orton gets some help from his (non) supporting
cast, then his team will win some games . . .

-----

Either you ARE Orton or you are close to him. Orton isn't catching all those passes, his WRs are playing at a very high level.

[topscribe]

I understood your point and responded to your point. I don't CARE what he did elsewhere. Thats what I've heard you say about many players. It ONLY matters what they do here. Orton is NOT good about putting the ball in the endzone.

PLEASE try to get out of the petty defense of Orton mode.

Wow. You are really displaying tunnel vision, Rav.

I guess you're just not interested in analyses. Only semantics and assumptions.

Sorry to disturb you . . . :coffee:

-----

[topscribe]

Either you ARE Orton or you are close to him. Orton isn't catching all those passes, his WRs are playing at a very high level.

Okay, that is the winning argument. The Broncos never lost those games.

Orton did . . . :coffee:

-----

[Lonestar]

WHY, when someone states that Orton IS NOT THE PROBLEM, they get labeled an "ORTON LOVER"?????? Common sense should tell people that Orton is NOT the problem - yes, he has thrown a few interceptions, he has fumbled a few times - ANY QB has/does/will do that. The QB position right now is NOT the problem, and I don't believe making a change will do anything to change that.

Well not all have common sense Carol.


Why destroy a young QB's confidence by throwing him to the wolves before he is ready? It's not like he isn't benefiting this season by sitting out, going through film and practice. It worked for the Packers and Rodgers, it can work for us and Tebow.

not to mention Rivers behind Brees made the both better IMO.


The Packers were held hostage by Brett Favre, a Hall of Fame QB. Had Brett retired Aaron's rookie season you can bet anything Rodgers would have been starting.

And how did this not make him more ready to play. Do you really think he would be at the level he is after getting killed as a rookie or second year guy.?


that's in every position tough. Gorge Foster at O-Line. Willie Middlebrooks at CB. Marcus Nash at WR. It will be ugly i'm sure, but nothing more ugly than a 59-14 beating and a loss to a 1-6 team.

none of which are worth #1 picks especially since two of them were injured when picked. IIRC none of them lasted in the nfl plus 1.

Lets not compare a great talent Tebow, with this skells.

[Jake Klug]

If Orton was really worth his salt, Denver wins that game yesterday. He was only at around 200 yards (if that) through 3 or so quarters but once SF went up two scores, the defense loosened up and he started amassing stats.

And we cant over look how he ________ed down his leg again in the clutch. It was only a couple of weeks ago that he wasnt even able to field the snap. At least he was able to do that yesterday when he threw the drive killing INT.

People need to stop talking about his stats. Theyre fluff for the most part. And saying that he's not the worst problem says more about how the running game is than how great Orton is.

Ortons far from garbage but if he is "the guy" then yesterday was tailormade for him.

[BroncoStud]

Okay, that is the winning argument. The Broncos never lost those games.

Orton did . . . :coffee:

-----

No one said that, I believe the point is that he isn't doing much to WIN those games. Inside the 20 yard line Orton isn't scoring, and YES, being the QB, he gets a lot of the blame.

Like it or not, when a team loses or doesn't score points, the QB and the coach are going to take a lot o the heat, just like when a team wins and scores a lot of points, the QB and the coach get a lot of the praise.

[Lonestar]

Wow. You are really displaying tunnel vision, Rav.

I guess you're just not interested in analyses. Only semantics and assumptions.

Sorry to disturb you . . . :coffee:

-----

HAd on called back yesterday guess that was Ortons fault also.

[topscribe]

If it will get tebow killed why is orton still playing. Orton mobility is non-existent he can move around escape one defender but then it's sack time. tebow could help the O-line by moving around back there like Big Ben in Pitt. And Tebow is a grown azz man 6'ft. something 240 something ...He can and should be able to take a hit plus give some as well.

Mainly because Orton is shattering the Broncos' all-time passing records,
exceeding even what the veteran John Elway achieved. I don't know how you can
expect the rookie Tebow (or any other rookie) to match that. That's why . . .

-----

[Ravage!!!]

Wow. You are really displaying tunnel vision, Rav.

I guess you're just not interested in analyses. Only semantics and assumptions.

Sorry to disturb you . . . :coffee:

-----

Top... why do you always pull this when you defensiveness is brought up? I saw what you typed. I also know that you have tunnel vision when it comes to Orton (to borrow your term again).

I'm not assuming ANYTHING. I'm seeing that the offense can't score. Thats not an assumption. I'm not assuming that Orton has a problem with scoring when the defense isn't shutting out the other team. Thats also been shown to be true.

I distinctly said in a couple posts back that I wasn't going to get into this debate, BECAUSE we both know where each other stands. Simply because you want to tell me how good Orton is, doesn't mean I'm going to accept that as fact.

Its been said by YOU just how good our WRs are, and how we have "one of the best WR corps in the NFL." They are catching the ball. Now Orton is playing well, but he's playing the best he's EVER played in his NFL career and STILL has a problem in scoring. Always has has problems late in games.

[topscribe]

No one said that, I believe the point is that he isn't doing much to WIN those games. Inside the 20 yard line Orton isn't scoring, and YES, being the QB, he gets a lot of the blame.

Like it or not, when a team loses or doesn't score points, the QB and the coach are going to take a lot o the heat, just like when a team wins and scores a lot of points, the QB and the coach get a lot of the praise.

Neither which is often fully deserved. That's the point.

If you want to discuss wins and losses, yes, the QB would obviously enter the
discussion, as would the coach. But to exclude the rest of the team, as I have so
often seen here, is to offer an exceedingly lame argument . . .

-----

[Mike]

Mainly because Orton is shattering the Broncos' all-time passing records,
exceeding even what the veteran John Elway achieved. I don't know how you can
expect the rookie Tebow (or any other rookie) to match that. That's why . . .

-----

What is he doing in the 4th qtr with the game on the line? Passer rating, TDs, Ints, fumbles, 3rd down conversion rate, etc?

[BroncoStud]

Mainly because Orton is shattering the Broncos' all-time passing records,
exceeding even what the veteran John Elway achieved. I don't know how you can
expect the rookie Tebow (or any other rookie) to match that. That's why . . .

-----

This reminds me of the Orton/Grossman argument the Bears fans used to have. Orton does just enough to make you want him but not enough to make you love him.

Bears fans went around for years with this argument because neither guy was great.

I would rather watch Tebow make plays and show some heart in a loss with young mistakes than watch Orton put up stats and fall apart when the game is on the line. Even Plummer was a LOT more clutch than Orton.

[BroncoStud]

What is he doing in the 4th qtr with the game on the line? Passer rating, TDs, Ints, fumbles, 3rd down conversion rate, etc?

It can't be good...

[topscribe]

Top... why do you always pull this when you defensiveness is brought up? I saw what you typed. I also know that you have tunnel vision when it comes to Orton (to borrow your term again).

I'm not assuming ANYTHING. I'm seeing that the offense can't score. Thats not an assumption. I'm not assuming that Orton has a problem with scoring when the defense isn't shutting out the other team. Thats also been shown to be true.

I distinctly said in a couple posts back that I wasn't going to get into this debate, BECAUSE we both know where each other stands. Simply because you want to tell me how good Orton is, doesn't mean I'm going to accept that as fact.

Its been said by YOU just how good our WRs are, and how we have "one of the best WR corps in the NFL." They are catching the ball. Now Orton is playing well, but he's playing the best he's EVER played in his NFL career and STILL has a problem in scoring. Always has has problems late in games.

Rav, my "defensiveness" is in your mind, not in actuality. I brought up a good
issue: why the Broncos are having problems in the RZ? To try to assess that
on a team basis is not being defensive. It is being logical.

You can look that up at http://www.m-w.com . :D

-----

[Ravage!!!]

I'm pretty sure I"m not reading very many (if any) say that Orton is the PROBLEM to the team. That goes several layers deep.

But that doesn't mean people can see that what we ARE doing, isn't working. Say its Orton, say its the OL, say its the coaching, say its injuries.... whatever. Doesn't matter.

So that being said.... if things are NOT working as they are, right now... then why not change them up to see what we have invested? We used a LOT of picks on TT. Many believe it was a wasted pick, and many believe it will be the future of this team.

I don't think a change happens until we are "mathmatically" removed from any possibility of the playoffs. I can't fault that thinking, really, but at the same time I also understand wanting to let the rookie get some valuable experience.

[missingnumber7]

If Tebow is such a savior, how is he not proving this in practice? Why is it that the only plays McD TRUSTS him with is running plays? Go back and look at his throwing motion, from PRESEASON this year, after Gruden worked with him. Its still a long throwing motion. The first throw he drops back to make gets knocked out of his hands. Hes not ready to be "the guy". But getting reps here and there for gimmick plays every now and then sure doesn't hurt his progression. Its alot better than what they did to Griese in 99 when they said oh hey Elway is gone...Brian...its your turn.

[I Eat Staples]

WHY, when someone states that Orton IS NOT THE PROBLEM, they get labeled an "ORTON LOVER"?????? Common sense should tell people that Orton is NOT the problem - yes, he has thrown a few interceptions, he has fumbled a few times - ANY QB has/does/will do that. The QB position right now is NOT the problem, and I don't believe making a change will do anything to change that.

The QB position is probably our only strong point at the moment.


Hey Staples, no need to be so rude when it comes to Tebow. We are all short fused because of the last 2 weeks. All some of us are saying is mix it up a bit, give TT a chance. Orton is getting battered back there and I think we are just reaching as fans for a change to WIN. I realize you have not liked Tebow since he was drafted and I hope for the Broncos that TT will prove you wrong. Go Broncos!

I also hope he proves me wrong. And I actually like Tebow a lot, I just don't think he can make it in the NFL. I honestly wish he was on a team I didn't care about so I could cheer for him to come in and play well without fearing the consequences to the team.


No, I'm just saying that, since Kyle was strong in the RZ at Chicago, I would like to
know why the problems here.

This is a very valid question and it should not be ignored. I watch Kyle between the 20s, and as everyone knows, he moves the ball very well. I watch Kyle in the redzone, and I don't notice him doing anything differently, yet the ball appears to be at a standstill. Why is this? Well, this is what I've come up with.

First of all, there has been many plays where Orton and his receiver just don't seem to be on the same page, or where the receiver just doesn't get to where the ball is thrown. I have to give some blame to the receivers, and some to the play calling. It seems McD tries too hard to get the ball in the endzone each play, instead of trying to take a few plays to pick up positive yardage, or a first down. Goaline fades don't work for us, and that's mainly a personnel issue.

Another problem I notice is, again, a personnel issue. Lloyd makes some nice catches and has big-play potential, but he's not a redzone threat. Gaffney really isn't all that good anywhere on the field. Royal is good in the open field, but with a smaller field in the redzone, he doesn't seem to get any separation and is mainly limited to screens and underneath routes. Thomas looks like he still has a long way to go, but he probably has the most potential as a redzone threat.

Finally, the running game. We have none, and the defenses know it. With a small field, the defense can play pass coverage, as their defensive line alone is enough to stop our running game. Not to mention our O-Line is getting increasingly worse at pass blocking, allowing the defensive line to create far too much penetration, thus taking away a large portion of the pocket for Kyle to throw in. Kyle is a pocket passer and should not have to run around like he did against SF.

Some of you may see it differently, and by all means share your take. I just don't understand where the hate for Orton comes from. The only thing I think Orton can do better in the redzone is scan the field quicker and not lock onto his primary target. Other than that, what I see is that our team is not built for the redzone, and that's going to have to change, no matter who's under center.

[BroncoStud]

Rav, my "defensiveness" is in your mind, not in actuality. I brought up a good
issue: why the Broncos are having problems in the RZ? To try to assess that
on a team basis is not being defensive. It is being logical.

You can look that up at http://www.m-w.com . :D

-----

You are VERY defensive of Kyle Orton for some reason. Knowshown Moreno doesn't get the same criticism in the redzone as Kyle Orton does because he is NOT the QB, Kyle is. Kyle handles every snap therefore he gets more blame than anyone else. It's the same for every other QB. McNabb got benched yesterday at Detroit with the game on the line but he had FAR worse protection than Orton did all day long. The QB is the catalyst for the offense.

[topscribe]

What is he doing in the 4th qtr with the game on the line? Passer rating, TDs, Ints, fumbles, 3rd down conversion rate, etc?

Well, you brought it up. Are you up to an in-depth analysis? Go ahead, be my guest.

That's all I'm trying to get at.

Where is the reading comprehension in this thread?

-----

[topscribe]

You are VERY defensive of Kyle Orton for some reason. Knowshown Moreno doesn't get the same criticism in the redzone as Kyle Orton does because he is NOT the QB, Kyle is. Kyle handles every snap therefore he gets more blame than anyone else. It's the same for every other QB. McNabb got benched yesterday at Detroit with the game on the line but he had FAR worse protection than Orton did all day long. The QB is the catalyst for the offense.

BREAKING NEWS!! I am NOT the topic of this thread.

Please go back to the OP and review the topic.

:focus:

-----

[lgenf]

I don't know how you can
expect the rookie Tebow (or any other rookie) to match that. That's why . . .

-----


because Tebow has IT!

you know that thing that some people have and others don't that separates them from the rest...IT

IT, is the extra thing that makes everyone else play better, try harder, do more, he brings up the whole team

I watched every game he played for the Gators, we were not always the better team, we didn't always have the better talent at every position but we found a way to win more times then not, and usually in the games that meant the most or had the most on the line.

Clearly when you are outmatched at every position you are not going to win, is Denver outmatched at every position? no

WHEN HE IS IN THE GAME, THE TEAM IS BETTER FOR IT

that is not to say that he won't struggle or make bad decisions (sure he will) but better now then next year when there is a clean slate of wins and loses

[slim]

Two turnovers in the 4th quarter yesterday.

Inexcusable.

[Ravage!!!]

Rav, my "defensiveness" is in your mind, not in actuality. I brought up a good
issue: why the Broncos are having problems in the RZ? To try to assess that
on a team basis is not being defensive. It is being logical.

You can look that up at http://www.m-w.com . :D

-----

Top.. I think you can look back at my position on how individual stats from players is what HELPS the team. I've always been a proponent of that, and thought you knew that about me. I've defended past QBs, WR, and whomever when people tried to say that "big stats don't mean anything." All I got from the VERY people that are defending Orton now, is "all that matters is winning."

So the first thing I stated, was "top you know thats not how QBs are judged." Because we've seen this before. The QB that plays will be playing well... at a PB level... and isn't winning. With past QBs it was pointed out that 'His numbers don't matter if he cant' put the ball in the endzone.' Not saying YOU were one of those people.

But, seriously..... I think you HAVE to admit that you are extremely defensive of Orton, and its because of your history of that defensiveness that people will point out that if this team is said (by the posters here) to have the best WR corp in the NFL, and leads the league in passing, and Orton is setting Bronco records in passing..... then its not plausible to then turn around and say the very same people that are catching the balls all over the field are the ones to blame for not putting the ball in the endzone. Orton has a history of not being able to score later in games.

[topscribe]

I'm pretty sure I"m not reading very many (if any) say that Orton is the PROBLEM to the team. That goes several layers deep.

But that doesn't mean people can see that what we ARE doing, isn't working. Say its Orton, say its the OL, say its the coaching, say its injuries.... whatever. Doesn't matter.

So that being said.... if things are NOT working as they are, right now... then why not change them up to see what we have invested? We used a LOT of picks on TT. Many believe it was a wasted pick, and many believe it will be the future of this team.

I don't think a change happens until we are "mathmatically" removed from any possibility of the playoffs. I can't fault that thinking, really, but at the same time I also understand wanting to let the rookie get some valuable experience.

See, you just exposed yourself.

Orton is not the problem. He would tell you himself, I'm sure, he is part of the
problem. But there are ten (10) other players on the field with him. Just as he
needs them to be successful, they share with him on the blame.

I think I am kicking a dead horse here. You seem to have a seething resentment
of Orton, which I have detected in you from the time he came to town.

I think it's just time for me to understand that you and others here are not
going to read my point as it is. :noidea:

-----

[Denver Native (Carol)]

If it will get tebow killed why is orton still playing. Orton mobility is non-existent he can move around escape one defender but then it's sack time. tebow could help the O-line by moving around back there like Big Ben in Pitt. And Tebow is a grown azz man 6'ft. something 240 something ...He can and should be able to take a hit plus give some as well.

Are we forgetting his "rib hit/injury" during preseason when he was NOT playing against a starting defense?????

[topscribe]

Top.. I think you can look back at my position on how individual stats from players is what HELPS the team. I've always been a proponent of that, and thought you knew that about me. I've defended past QBs, WR, and whomever when people tried to say that "big stats don't mean anything." All I got from the VERY people that are defending Orton now, is "all that matters is winning."

So the first thing I stated, was "top you know thats not how QBs are judged." Because we've seen this before. The QB that plays will be playing well... at a PB level... and isn't winning. With past QBs it was pointed out that 'His numbers don't matter if he cant' put the ball in the endzone.' Not saying YOU were one of those people.

But, seriously..... I think you HAVE to admit that you are extremely defensive of Orton, and its because of your history of that defensiveness that people will point out that if this team is said (by the posters here) to have the best WR corp in the NFL, and leads the league in passing, and Orton is setting Bronco records in passing..... then its not plausible to then turn around and say the very same people that are catching the balls all over the field are the ones to blame for not putting the ball in the endzone. Orton has a history of not being able to score later in games.

BREAKING NEWS!! I am NOT the topic of this thread.

Please go back to the OP and review the topic.

:focus:

-----

[BroncoStud]

BREAKING NEWS!! I am NOT the topic of this thread.

Please go back to the OP and review the topic.

:focus:

-----

I'm aware of the topic, though it could just as easily read "Blindly Defend Kyle Orton for his Lack of Clutch Play while Blaming Everyone Else on the Team"...

[topscribe]

because Tebow has IT!

you know that thing that some people have and others don't that separates them from the rest...IT

IT, is the extra thing that makes everyone else play better, try harder, do more, he brings up the whole team

I watched every game he played for the Gators, we were not always the better team, we didn't always have the better talent at every position but we found a way to win more times then not, and usually in the games that meant the most or had the most on the line.

Clearly when you are outmatched at every position you are not going to win, is Denver outmatched at every position? no

WHEN HE IS IN THE GAME, THE TEAM IS BETTER FOR IT

that is not to say that he won't struggle or make bad decisions (sure he will) but better now then next year when there is a clean slate of wins and loses

In other words, Elway did not have "IT." Whatever "IT" is . . .

-----

[I Eat Staples]

because Tebow has IT!

you know that thing that some people have and others don't that separates them from the rest...IT

IT, is the extra thing that makes everyone else play better, try harder, do more, he brings up the whole team

I watched every game he played for the Gators, we were not always the better team, we didn't always have the better talent at every position but we found a way to win more times then not, and usually in the games that meant the most or had the most on the line.

Clearly when you are outmatched at every position you are not going to win, is Denver outmatched at every position? no

WHEN HE IS IN THE GAME, THE TEAM IS BETTER FOR IT

that is not to say that he won't struggle or make bad decisions (sure he will) but better now then next year when there is a clean slate of wins and loses

You need to have more than just IT to be successful in the NFL.

Not to mention, the gators DID have more talent than their opponent almost every week...

[topscribe]

I'm aware of the topic, though it could just as easily read "Blindly Defend Kyle Orton for his Lack of Clutch Play while Blaming Everyone Else on the Team"...

No, if you were just a little bit more adept at reading, you would have caught that
I said categorically that Orton is part of the problem.

If you are capable of reading at this level, then this post of yours is dishonest.

-----

[Ravage!!!]

Some of you may see it differently, and by all means share your take. I just don't understand where the hate for Orton comes from. The only thing I think Orton can do better in the redzone is scan the field quicker and not lock onto his primary target. Other than that, what I see is that our team is not built for the redzone, and that's going to have to change, no matter who's under center.

I don't think I"m seeing "hate" from anyone other than those that just because Bronco fans because of TT. Other than that, I'm seeing points made that has been an Orton failure for years. He doesnt' put the ball in the endzone later in games.

I think something that MIGHT be considered (along with all your points in your post) is that Orton is a VERY conservative QB. With the smaller field, and the windows getting tighter the closer to the endzone, there is less room for mistakes. Orton may very well not feel comfortable with those tighter/smaller windows, and the 'miscommunications' between he and the receiver may be something as simple as Orton reading for the "safe" play and the WR reading for the more aggressive play.

[lgenf]

In other words, Elway did not have "IT." Whatever "IT" is . . .

-----


I don't know if he had it, he had a gift for sure, the same as Marino, the big difference from Elway and Marino was the John had a running game and that combined with his talent got a couple of rings.

TT is not Elway, or is he?

(the point of this thread is that we don't know and its worth taking a shot to find out IMO that is why I started the thread)

[BroncoStud]

No, if you were just a little bit more adept at reading, you would have caught that
I said categorically that Orton is part of the problem.

If you are capable of reading at this level, then this post of yours is dishonest.

-----

Wow, touchy man... Why take this Orton/Tebow discussion so personally. I would hope that as fans we would all want the Broncos to succeed.

Orton isn't the problem, he isn't the solution, he's just there. He plays well enough to start and put up decent numbers but he doesn't have the ability to elevate the team to victory when he is needed to do so. He is much more Brian Griese than he is John Elway. The team desperately needs a playmaker at the QB position. The Broncos are not good enough to win with a game-manager.

[Ravage!!!]

I don't know if he had it, he had a gift for sure, the same as Marino, the big difference from Elway and Marino was the John had a running game and that combined with his talent got a couple of rings.

TT is not Elway, or is he?

(the point of this thread is that we don't know and its worth taking a shot to find out IMO that is why I started the thread)

You obviously are pretty young and haven't watched many years of football. Am I wrong on that?

[Denver Native (Carol)]

You need to have more than just IT to be successful in the NFL.

Not to mention, the gators DID have more talent than their opponent almost every week...

Exactly, and it is common knowledge that there is a MAJOR difference playing college ball, vs pro ball. Not every college player makes it to pro ball.

[I Eat Staples]

I don't think I"m seeing "hate" from anyone other than those that just because Bronco fans because of TT. Other than that, I'm seeing points made that has been an Orton failure for years. He doesnt' put the ball in the endzone later in games.

I think something that MIGHT be considered (along with all your points in your post) is that Orton is a VERY conservative QB. With the smaller field, and the windows getting tighter the closer to the endzone, there is less room for mistakes. Orton may very well not feel comfortable with those tighter/smaller windows, and the 'miscommunications' between he and the receiver may be something as simple as Orton reading for the "safe" play and the WR reading for the more aggressive play.

I agree with that point. I think Orton needs to have more confidence in himself. I believe he's more than capable of making tough throws, he just needs to realize it. I also think McD needs to open up the playbook and allow him to make those throws.

If Orton had as much confidence in himself as Topscribe has in him, I have no doubt he'd rise to true elite status. :D

[lgenf]

You obviously are pretty young and haven't watched many years of football. Am I wrong on that?


yes you are

[topscribe]

Wow, touchy man... Why take this Orton/Tebow discussion so personally. I would hope that as fans we would all want the Broncos to succeed.

Orton isn't the problem, he isn't the solution, he's just there. He plays well enough to start and put up decent numbers but he doesn't have the ability to elevate the team to victory when he is needed to do so. He is much more Brian Griese than he is John Elway. The team desperately needs a playmaker at the QB position. The Broncos are not good enough to win with a game-manager.

You really are good and spinning and twisting, aren't you? Not to mention making
other posters the topic, which is forbidden on this site, by the way.

If you think I'm taking the discussion personally, then you have a wild imagination.
It is not a discussion I take personally. It is the misrepresentation of what I say.
When you misrepresent what I say, then I take it personally. I'm not writing
here on a very high level. So that indicates to me that your misrepresentation
is intentional. So at that point I take your misrepresentation personally.

If you want to maintain an intelligent discussion without making me the topic
and without misrepresenting what I say, then you will find I am very polite.

-----

[lgenf]

I don't like any of the personal attacks or questions about if you are this or that

my point in this thread is that it could be time to try him



I think someone mentioned it just a post or so ago, something is not working in the RZ and while he may be a good game manager, without a good defense and good running game (like the Jets, Ravens etc) a game manager for the Broncos is not cutting it

and to the poster that asked my age or if I had been watching for years it still does not change the facts

Elway was great but couldn't do it on his own, until Terrell Davis showed up in the backfield Elway could not get the rings, and that has nothing to do with being a fan, it is clearly a fact and every major sports reporter will tell you the same thing, so I have no idea what your comment was directed at with my statement.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

I don't like any of the personal attacks or questions about if you are this or that

my point in this thread is that it could be time to try him



I think someone mentioned it just a post or so ago, something is not working in the RZ and while he may be a good game manager, without a good defense and good running game (like the Jets, Ravens etc) a game manager for the Broncos is not cutting it

and to the poster that asked my age or if I had been watching for years it still does not change the facts

Elway was great but couldn't do it on his own, until Terrell Davis showed up in the backfield Elway could not get the rings, and that has nothing to do with being a fan, it is clearly a fact and every major sports reporter will tell you the same thing, so I have no idea what your comment was directed at with my statement.

If the GREAT Elway (whom I loved by the way), could NOT do it without TD in the backfield, WHY all the criticism for Orton - I watched every game Elway played, and I can guarantee you that every year, the running game was BETTER than what Orton has now. And when Elway did win the BIG one, the OL was outstanding.

[robert ethan]

Tebow isn't Bradford. That's why Tebow was mocked to go 4th or 5th round and Bradford was taken #1 overall.

I'm not down on Tebow, but he's our future. It's no good to throw him out there with no RG or RT with the limited skills he has for an NFL offense.

Tebow put up the same passing numbers as Bradford in college, and beat Sam the only time they played each other. Bradford's performance so far this season makes me believe that Tebow will excel once he is given the opportunity. But there is no hurry. Kyle is playing well and deserves the chance to further his career wherever that may be. In any case I'll be willing to bet that Tim has a better NFL career than the Down Syndrome Boy of St Louis.

[Bosco]

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/files/2008/09/thestupiditburns.jpg

[BroncoStud]

You really are good and spinning and twisting, aren't you? Not to mention making
other posters the topic, which is forbidden on this site, by the way.

If you think I'm taking the discussion personally, then you have a wild imagination.
It is not a discussion I take personally. It is the misrepresentation of what I say.
When you misrepresent what I say, then I take it personally. I'm not writing
here on a very high level. So that indicates to me that your misrepresentation
is intentional. So at that point I take your misrepresentation personally.

If you want to maintain an intelligent discussion without making me the topic
and without misrepresenting what I say, then you will find I am very polite.

-----

All I have found is you insult my reading comprehension, my lack of knowledge, and my ability to digest the information you present. I think I get it... You like Orton. Great, no big deal to me. You and I have no say-so with what happens to the Broncos. That said, I think Orton deserves as much blame for the offensive woes as anyone, he handles every snap and he is responsible for leading the offense into the endzone.

Yards look good, points win games. This team needs a playmaker at that position.

[topscribe]

All I have found is you insult my reading comprehension, my lack of knowledge, and my ability to digest the information you present. I think I get it... You like Orton. Great, no big deal to me. You and I have no say-so with what happens to the Broncos. That said, I think Orton deserves as much blame for the offensive woes as anyone, he handles every snap and he is responsible for leading the offense into the endzone.

Yards look good, points win games. This team needs a playmaker at that position.

Wow. Just . . . wow. :rolleyes:

-----

[Ravage!!!]

Tebow put up the same passing numbers as Bradford in college, and beat Sam the only time they played each other. Bradford's performance so far this season makes me believe that Tebow will excel once he is given the opportunity. But there is no hurry. Kyle is playing well and deserves the chance to further his career wherever that may be. In any case I'll be willing to bet that Tim has a better NFL career than the Down Syndrome Boy of St Louis.

There is a reason that Bradford was picked #1 overall, and Tebow was considered a REACh to take. I also think there is a reason we haven't seen Tebow even attempt a pass yet (although I don't agree that there hasn't been one).

Bradford and Tebow are not the same kind of QB. Bradford's style of play has been shown to be a MUCH more NFL style than Tebow's. Tebow isn't a good passer, and most running QBs in the NFL prove that they aren't good passers. VY isn't a good passer... Vick.. not a good passer.

As of right now, Bradford is proving to be a good passer. Thats what you absolutely MUST have to succeed in the NFL.

[BroncoStud]

You need to have more than just IT to be successful in the NFL.

Not to mention, the gators DID have more talent than their opponent almost every week...

Might want to ask some Florida fans what they think of life AFTER Tebow... You might be surprised. Tebow made it look easy. How quickly we forget that Georgia had players like Matthew Stafford and Knowshown Moreno, Alabama had talent up and down the roster, LSU is always loaded with NFL talent, Auburn puts guys like Ronnie Brown and Cadillac William in draft, Tennessee was solid along with Ole Miss and South Carolina.

Tebow made it look easy because he was a special talent. Looking at Florida before and after him, it is very easy to make the argument they don't win a single national championship unless Tebow is there. Even the Chris Leak-led Gators relied on Tebow's plowing through defenders in the redzone.

Say what you want but Tebow made every player on that roster better and he put up great numbers and won big games in the toughest conference in college football.

If you want to compare the collegiate body of work Orton can't touch Tebow, not even close. Both ran the spread offense but one dominated in the SEC while the other got benched off and on his final season because he was ineffective against Big 10 defenses.

[topscribe]

Might want to ask some Florida fans what they think of life AFTER Tebow... You might be surprised. Tebow made it look easy. How quickly we forget that Georgia had players like Matthew Stafford and Knowshown Moreno, Alabama had talent up and down the roster, LSU is always loaded with NFL talent, Auburn puts guys like Ronnie Brown and Cadillac William in draft, Tennessee was solid along with Ole Miss and South Carolina.

Tebow made it look easy because he was a special talent. Looking at Florida before and after him, it is very easy to make the argument they don't win a single national championship unless Tebow is there. Even the Chris Leak-led Gators relied on Tebow's plowing through defenders in the redzone.

Say what you want but Tebow made every player on that roster better and he put up great numbers and won big games in the toughest conference in college football.

If you want to compare the collegiate body of work Orton can't touch Tebow, not even close. Both ran the spread offense but one dominated in the SEC while the other got benched off and on his final season because he was ineffective against Big 10 defenses.

Is the SEC a Division within the NFL?

Wow . . . who knew?

-----

[Ravage!!!]

Elway was great but couldn't do it on his own, until Terrell Davis showed up in the backfield Elway could not get the rings, and that has nothing to do with being a fan, it is clearly a fact and every major sports reporter will tell you the same thing, so I have no idea what your comment was directed at with my statement.

I asked because you said you "didn't know" if Elway had "it" or not, only that he had talents. You have also stated that Elway had a better running game than Marino, and that was the biggest difference between the two.

This leads me to believe that you are either JUST talking about the last 3 years of Elway's career, or you don't knjow much about the history of Denver's running game. Elway didn't have a better running game UNTIL Davis, and before Davis, he led the Broncos to THREE SuperBowls.

I asked if you were young, because it appears to me that you haven't really watched John or Marino play, but are going purely one what you hear or have read about.... (maybe have watched some highlight reels from both on youtube). Either way, it appears obvious to me that you haven't actually seen them play and thus might be young. If you aren't young and hadn't watched them play, then the only other option is that you haven't watched much football.

Elway had the most wins of any QB in history before Favre beat that record. That didn't happen because of the 4 years he played with TD.

[BroncoStud]

Is the SEC a Division within the NFL?

Wow . . . who knew?

-----

Is the Big 12?

[topscribe]

Is the Big 12?

wut? :confused:

-----

[BroncoStud]

wut? :confused:

-----

Isn't Bradford starting for the Rams?

[BroncoStud]

Is the SEC a Division within the NFL?

Wow . . . who knew?

-----

Yeah man, you're just as polite as can be. And I am the one making YOU the topic of this thread... :confused:

:rolleyes:

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Might want to ask some Florida fans what they think of life AFTER Tebow... You might be surprised. Tebow made it look easy. How quickly we forget that Georgia had players like Matthew Stafford and Knowshown Moreno, Alabama had talent up and down the roster, LSU is always loaded with NFL talent, Auburn puts guys like Ronnie Brown and Cadillac William in draft, Tennessee was solid along with Ole Miss and South Carolina.

Tebow made it look easy because he was a special talent. Looking at Florida before and after him, it is very easy to make the argument they don't win a single national championship unless Tebow is there. Even the Chris Leak-led Gators relied on Tebow's plowing through defenders in the redzone.

Say what you want but Tebow made every player on that roster better and he put up great numbers and won big games in the toughest conference in college football.

If you want to compare the collegiate body of work Orton can't touch Tebow, not even close. Both ran the spread offense but one dominated in the SEC while the other got benched off and on his final season because he was ineffective against Big 10 defenses.

I am sure that ANY QB, drafted, had an outstanding college career, or they would not have been drafted - Ryan Leaf, Jeff George, Jamarcus Russell, etc. Of course, I am not comparing Tim Tebow with those others, other than they were all drafted. But, my point is, there is no 100% GUARANTEE that a good/great college QB will be a good/great pro QB, or no 100% GUARANTEE that a lesser college QB, could not end up being a good/great pro QB.

You can NOT assume that a GREAT college QB will equal a GREAT pro QB, based solely on his college career. Pro football has to be a TOTAL TEAM EFFORT. KC is winning right now, and Cassell is NOT the reason - he is NOT having a GREAT year.

[slim]

I am sure that ANY QB, drafted, had an outstanding college career, or they would not have been drafted - Ryan Leaf, Jeff George, Jamarcus Russell, etc. Of course, I am not comparing Tim Tebow with those others, other than they were all drafted. But, my point is, there is no 100% GUARANTEE that a good/great college QB will be a good/great pro QB, or no 100% GUARANTEE that a lesser college QB, could not end up being a good/great pro QB.

You can NOT assume that a GREAT college QB will equal a GREAT pro QB, based solely on his college career. Pro football has to be a TOTAL TEAM EFFORT. KC is winning right now, and Cassell is NOT the reason - he is NOT having a GREAT year.

True, but there is only one way to find out if TT has the goods.

It's time to find out.

[topscribe]

Isn't Bradford starting for the Rams?


Yeah man, you're just as polite as can be. And I am the one making YOU the topic of this thread... :confused:

:rolleyes:

You are talking about college. The NFL is not college. Steve Spurrier found that
out. Alex Smith found that out. Ryan Leaf found that out. Tim Couch found that
out. Tommy Maddox found that out. etc., etc.

Need I pursue that any further?

Oh, and I don't get where I was talking about you. But whatever . . .

-----

[BroncoStud]

I am sure that ANY QB, drafted, had an outstanding college career, or they would not have been drafted - Ryan Leaf, Jeff George, Jamarcus Russell, etc. Of course, I am not comparing Tim Tebow with those others, other than they were all drafted. But, my point is, there is no 100% GUARANTEE that a good/great college QB will be a good/great pro QB, or no 100% GUARANTEE that a lesser college QB, could not end up being a good/great pro QB.

You can NOT assume that a GREAT college QB will equal a GREAT pro QB, based solely on his college career. Pro football has to be a TOTAL TEAM EFFORT. KC is winning right now, and Cassell is NOT the reason - he is NOT having a GREAT year.

I'm not assuming that, not in the least. Staples made the comment that Florida had better talent than everyone else in the SEC hence causing Tebow to be successful. I illustrated that without Tebow, before and after, Florida was not an elite team. Florida has struggled to move the ball almost all year since Tebow left, with very similar talent.

And no, not every QB who gets drafted had a great collegiate career. Plenty of guys had so-so careers, Matt Cassel is having a good season and he was a backup his entire time at USC. Plenty of drafted QBs had very good careers, but VERY FEW if ANY, had the type of performance Tebow had.

If you want to knock him for his not playing in a pro-style offense, or his lack of pure-passer ability, fine, but it is illogical and quite ignorant to criticize his performance based on merit and contribution on the field, because Tebow had arguably the greatest collegiate career in NCAA history.

He was special whereas 99% of NCAA QBs are not.

[BroncoStud]

You are talking about college. The NFL is not college. Steve Spurrier found that
out. Alex Smith found that out. Ryan Leaf found that out. Tim Couch found that
out. Tommy Maddox found that out. etc., etc.

Need I pursue that any further?

Oh, and I don't get where I was talking about you. Sensitive much?

-----

I'm quite aware that the NFL and NCAA are different. I NEVER said they were the same... Funny you mention my lack of comprehension, the mirror is calling you out.

Tebow played Braford head-to-head once, and won while looking better than Bradford. The Rams liked Bradford enough to draft him #1 overall and start him immediately. Why is it so far-fetched that a winner and a dominating collegiate player like Tebow could be successful in the NFL?

[Denver Native (Carol)]

I'm not assuming that, not in the least. Staples made the comment that Florida had better talent than everyone else in the SEC hence causing Tebow to be successful. I illustrated that without Tebow, before and after, Florida was not an elite team. Florida has struggled to move the ball almost all year since Tebow left, with very similar talent.

And no, not every QB who gets drafted had a great collegiate career. Plenty of guys had so-so careers, Matt Cassel is having a good season and he was a backup his entire time at USC. Plenty of drafted QBs had very good careers, but VERY FEW if ANY, had the type of performance Tebow had.

If you want to knock him for his not playing in a pro-style offense, or his lack of pure-passer ability, fine, but it is illogical and quite ignorant to criticize his performance based on merit and contribution on the field, because Tebow had arguably the greatest collegiate career in NCAA history.

He was special whereas 99% of NCAA QBs are not.

If you are directing the comment which I bolded/underlined at me, please go back and read my posts - NONE of which will you find that I criticized Tebow, nor said ANYTHING negative about him.

[BroncoStud]

If you are directing the comment which I bolded/underlined at me, please go back and read my posts - NONE of which will you find that I criticized Tebow, nor said ANYTHING negative about him.

Not YOU in particular, I meant overall football critics. A general question to those who evaluate talent. I know you didn't criticize any players. :beer:

[Ravage!!!]

I'm not assuming that, not in the least. Staples made the comment that Florida had better talent than everyone else in the SEC hence causing Tebow to be successful. I illustrated that without Tebow, before and after, Florida was not an elite team. Florida has struggled to move the ball almost all year since Tebow left, with very similar talent.

And no, not every QB who gets drafted had a great collegiate career. Plenty of guys had so-so careers, Matt Cassel is having a good season and he was a backup his entire time at USC. Plenty of drafted QBs had very good careers, but VERY FEW if ANY, had the type of performance Tebow had.

If you want to knock him for his not playing in a pro-style offense, or his lack of pure-passer ability, fine, but it is illogical and quite ignorant to criticize his performance based on merit and contribution on the field, because Tebow had arguably the greatest collegiate career in NCAA history.

He was special whereas 99% of NCAA QBs are not.

he wasn't a special passer. Lots of QBs have come out of college that can dominate NCAA opponents with their legs. Tebow was a great college QB. Lots of great college QBs have completely failed in the NFL because they were great runners and not great passers.

Tebow is not a good passer. He was a good rushing QB. As of right now, very few people in the know, believe Tebow will be a good passer in the NFL... and you HAVE to be a good passer in the NFL.

[slim]

There is a reason that Bradford was picked #1 overall, and Tebow was considered a REACh to take. I also think there is a reason we haven't seen Tebow even attempt a pass yet (although I don't agree that there hasn't been one).

Bradford and Tebow are not the same kind of QB. Bradford's style of play has been shown to be a MUCH more NFL style than Tebow's. Tebow isn't a good passer, and most running QBs in the NFL prove that they aren't good passers. VY isn't a good passer... Vick.. not a good passer.

As of right now, Bradford is proving to be a good passer. Thats what you absolutely MUST have to succeed in the NFL.

Is there a reason that Tim Couch was picked #1 overall and Drew Breese wasn't picked in the first round?

[topscribe]

I'm quite aware that the NFL and NCAA are different. I NEVER said they were the same... Funny you mention my lack of comprehension, the mirror is calling you out.

Tebow played Braford head-to-head once, and won while looking better than Bradford. The Rams liked Bradford enough to draft him #1 overall and start him immediately. Why is it so far-fetched that a winner and a dominating collegiate player like Tebow could be successful in the NFL?

Certainly Tebow could be successful. Or he could be a bust.

But his performance in college is NO guarantee as to his performance in the NFL,
one way or another. Ryan Leaf was sensational in college, where as Tom Brady
was . . . well, pretty good. How did that work out?

Ravage is right about passing ability. The NFL QB no longer has the luxury of
running the option and operating consistently outside the pocket. He MUST be
a good pocket passer. And Tebow is not a good pocket passer at this point. He
MIGHT become one, but he has a LOT of work to do.

Tebow's work ethic and dedication is unsurpassed. If he doesn't become a
"great" NFL QB, it won't be his fault. But he still might not.

But he does not belong on the field right now, IMO . . .

-----

[BroncoStud]

he wasn't a special passer. Lots of QBs have come out of college that can dominate NCAA opponents with their legs. Tebow was a great college QB. Lots of great college QBs have completely failed in the NFL because they were great runners and not great passers.

Tebow is not a good passer. He was a good rushing QB. As of right now, very few people in the know, believe Tebow will be a good passer in the NFL... and you HAVE to be a good passer in the NFL.

I guess I'm not in the Know... All I know is that he led the nation in passer efficiency. He was able to put up great numbers against SEC defenses. He was a field general. He won a LOT of games. He made his teammates better. He had arguably the greatest NCAA career of all-time...

He is NEVER going to be Dan Marino. But who is to say he can't be Roger Staubach? Fran Tarkenton? The Falcons had to find a way to utilize Vick and he has become a very good NFL QB. Tebow has physical skills that very few players at the position possess. If Jake Plummer can lead the Broncos to an AFC Championship I am not going to put it past Tebow to have the capacity to accomplish the same.

[slim]

To say he is not a good passer is kind of silly, IMO.

[BroncoStud]

Certainly Tebow could be successful. Or he could be a bust.

But his performance in college is NO guarantee as to his performance in the NFL,
one way or another. Ryan Leaf was sensational in college, where as Tom Brady
was . . . well, pretty good. How did that work out?

Ravage is right about passing ability. The NFL QB no longer has the luxury of
running the option and operating consistently outside the pocket. He MUST be
a good pocket passer. And Tebow is not a good pocket passer at this point. He
MIGHT become one, but he has a LOT of work to do.

Tebow's work ethic and dedication is unsurpassed. If he doesn't become a
"great" NFL QB, it won't be his fault. But he still might not.

But he does not belong on the field right now, IMO . . .

-----

Finally we are coming to some sort of agreement. I don't feel he is likely "ready" to excel as a starting NFL QB. But if he isn't going to replace Orton, he should see meaningful passing snaps. There is no reason not to include Tebow in a few series a game and see what he can do. I saw enough in Preseason to know he is capable of making NFL throws quite easily.

[Ravage!!!]

Is there a reason that Tim Couch was picked #1 overall and Drew Breese wasn't picked in the first round?

fair enough.

Obviously its not a science and no one knows. But there are such things as educated guesses.

I personally do not think Tebow is a good passer. Now he has a strong arm, but his QB efficiency just doesn't mean much to me. Not considering it was college and the fact that in the NCAA, a team like Florida will have just so much talent then ALMOST all their opponents.

I've also said that I think its time to start Tebow so that we can see WHAT he is and what he is not, and to give him much valued experience. I've admitted that I don't think he'll be a top NFL QB, but at teh same time no one knows and I'm anxious to see.

[topscribe]

I guess I'm not in the Know... All I know is that he led the nation in passer efficiency. He was able to put up great numbers against SEC defenses. He was a field general. He won a LOT of games. He made his teammates better. He had arguably the greatest NCAA career of all-time...

He is NEVER going to be Dan Marino. But who is to say he can't be Roger Staubach? Fran Tarkenton? The Falcons had to find a way to utilize Vick and he has become a very good NFL QB. Tebow has physical skills that very few players at the position possess. If Jake Plummer can lead the Broncos to an AFC Championship I am not going to put it past Tebow to have the capacity to accomplish the same.

Staubach and Tarkenton were elusive . . . very elusive. And Vick runs a 4.4 40.
Tebow is none of those things. He's not fast. He could run people over in college,
but the pros are bigger, faster, stronger, tougher, and meaner than those in
college. He hasn't run many people over in the NFL so far, and he's not going to.

And Plummer, while not an "elite" pocket passer by any means, was better
than people thought if you were to examine his pocket statistics. And he was
elusive . . . that's why they called him "Snake."

Tebow just does not have the qualities as those you named, IMO. Not in the pros.

-----

[slim]

fair enough.

Obviously its not a science and no one knows. But there are such things as educated guesses.

I personally do not think Tebow is a good passer. Now he has a strong arm, but his QB efficiency just doesn't mean much to me. Not considering it was college and the fact that in the NCAA, a team like Florida will have just so much talent then ALMOST all their opponents.

I've also said that I think its time to start Tebow so that we can see WHAT he is and what he is not, and to give him much valued experience. I've admitted that I don't think he'll be a top NFL QB, but at teh same time no one knows and I'm anxious to see.

I hope they play him soon. At least we would have a reason to watch.

[topscribe]

I hope they play him soon. At least we would have a reason to watch.

Wow, Slim . . . it's ironic that the best pure passer in Broncos history is not considered worth watching . . . :confused:

-----

[slim]

Wow, Slim . . . it's ironic that the best pure passer in Broncos history is not considered worth watching . . . :confused:

-----

:laugh:

Stop it.

[Ravage!!!]

Wow, Slim . . . it's ironic that the best pure passer in Broncos history is not considered worth watching . . . :confused:

-----

Stats don't tell the whole story. Just because he's putting up numbers doesn't make him fun to watch.

[slim]

Stats don't tell the whole story. Just because he's putting up numbers doesn't make him fun to watch.

2-6.

The only stat that matters.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

2-6.

The only stat that matters.

If Orton is 2-6, what record does the rest of the team have, and how would Tebow improve that record, all on his own?

[slim]

If Orton is 2-6, what record does the rest of the team have, and how would Tebow improve that record, all on his own?

I didn't say he would improve on it.

My point is that this season is over (I hate to say that, but I think it is true), so why not see what the kid can do? I would rather use the second half of this year to evaluate Tebow. I just think that is the smart thing to do.

[Mike]

If Orton is 2-6, what record does the rest of the team have, and how would Tebow improve that record, all on his own?

That's the point. The team is 2-6. The season is over. There is no reason not to put Tebow in and let him get experience. Doing so during the bye makes the most senseas it gives McD a full two weeks to prepare the team and devise a game plan around Tebow's strengths.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

I didn't say he would improve on it.

My point is that this season is over (I hate to say that, but I think it is true), so why not see what the kid can do? I would rather use the second half of this year to evaluate Tebow. I just think that is the smart thing to do.

I prefer to wait until the season is "officially over - eliminated from winning the division", and if that happens, then put him in to get him some experience.

[Mike]

I prefer to wait until the season is "officially over - eliminated from winning the division", and if that happens, then put him in to get him some experience.

Denver is one of the bottom 4 teams in the league. This season is over. So we can take the bye as an opportunity to make a change and install game plans around Tebow strengths or we can wallow in the suck and ride out the season as is. It sucks either way, but I would rather watch the Broncos suck with a rookie QB to lessen the learning curve for next year.

[BroncoStud]

Staubach and Tarkenton were elusive . . . very elusive. And Vick runs a 4.4 40.
Tebow is none of those things. He's not fast. He could run people over in college,
but the pros are bigger, faster, stronger, tougher, and meaner than those in
college. He hasn't run many people over in the NFL so far, and he's not going to.

And Plummer, while not an "elite" pocket passer by any means, was better
than people thought if you were to examine his pocket statistics. And he was
elusive . . . that's why they called him "Snake."

Tebow just does not have the qualities as those you named, IMO. Not in the pros.

-----

I believe that Tebow is very mobile. He's more Culpepper-like than Vick-like, but he has great running instincts.

[BroncoStud]

If Orton is 2-6, what record does the rest of the team have, and how would Tebow improve that record, all on his own?

What good does it do to let Orton go 4-12 when Tebow could do the same or slightly worse and get valuable experience?

[GEM]

If it will get tebow killed why is orton still playing. Orton mobility is non-existent he can move around escape one defender but then it's sack time. tebow could help the O-line by moving around back there like Big Ben in Pitt. And Tebow is a grown azz man 6'ft. something 240 something ...He can and should be able to take a hit plus give some as well.

Orton's blindside is the left tackle, Ryan Clady. Tebow's blindside is whoever is playing right tackle this week. Did you see the play where a guy came in completely unblocked? He was nearly decapitated.

When was the last time you saw Clady let a guy go completely untouched?

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Brandon Lloyd is on 104.3 the fan right now, and he just got done saying that the players need to do whatever they can to keep Kyle playing - to keep Kyle in the game. He also said they do not want to start looking too far ahead, to cause distractions on this team, and said the team is sticking together. He said that Coach McD knows exactly what he is doing, and the players are not executing. Coach McD gives them the coaching points, and they need to execute it. Again, the team is not turning on Coach McD.

[slim]

I prefer to wait until the season is "officially over - eliminated from winning the division", and if that happens, then put him in to get him some experience.

I can understand that argument.

I said in another thread today that I would wait until KC beats us, before I made a switch at QB. But I have changed my mind. There is no reason to wait.

[topscribe]

Stats don't tell the whole story. Just because he's putting up numbers doesn't make him fun to watch.

Well, if you're not having fun watching him, I can respect that . . .

-----

[Krugan]

Ive have to say, if there where faith in Tebow making the throws, he would at least get a chance out of teh swamp formation.

So far he hasnt even sniffed a chance to pass yet. There has to be a reason why that package hasnt at least turned up a pass. As it stands right now, that package is utterly useless.

Everyone on the d side knows he is going to run inside.

[jhildebrand]

Orton's blindside is the left tackle, Ryan Clady. Tebow's blindside is whoever is playing right tackle this week. Did you see the play where a guy came in completely unblocked? He was nearly decapitated.

When was the last time you saw Clady let a guy go completely untouched?

Ask Chris Sims how our RT situation worked for him last season :eek:

[slim]

Ive have to say, if there where faith in Tebow making the throws, he would at least get a chance out of teh swamp formation.

So far he hasnt even sniffed a chance to pass yet. There has to be a reason why that package hasnt at least turned up a pass. As it stands right now, that package is utterly useless.

Everyone on the d side knows he is going to run inside.

Normally I would agree with you here.

This was the same line of reasoning for not using Tebow in the red zone..."well, the guys that watch practice every day don't think it's a good idea, so there must be a reason".

It is the same line of reasoning people used for Peyton Hillis getting no playing time, even in short yardage, last year (I am guilty of this myself).

McD no longer gets the benefit of the doubt in this type of situation (at least he shouldn't).

[BORDERLINE]

Orton's blindside is the left tackle, Ryan Clady. Tebow's blindside is whoever is playing right tackle this week. Did you see the play where a guy came in completely unblocked? He was nearly decapitated.

When was the last time you saw Clady let a guy go completely untouched?

If you are talking about the play where he stayed on the ground, I believe buck or moreno failed to pick up the block on that play. Now don't get it twisted i'm not defending this O-line, they are awful, but even Clady isn't playing like a pro-bowl player. I just beleve Tebow can move around and make a couple of more plays on the move. If we where winning and Orton was putting up those numbers i would not ask for tebow to come in. We are no longer in the hunt for a playoff spot. I understand we are not eliminated yet but it's only a matter of games before we are. WE are not very good football team, time to move in a new direction with McD's 1st round pick

[lgenf]

Denver is one of the bottom 4 teams in the league. This season is over. So we can take the bye as an opportunity to make a change and install game plans around Tebow strengths or we can wallow in the suck and ride out the season as is. It sucks either way, but I would rather watch the Broncos suck with a rookie QB to lessen the learning curve for next year.

that was kind of why I started the post, that is the exact point I was making

why go through this again next year if 8 games this year can serve as a learning curve and help us next year, and with the bye week it's really the only week you can do it

[BORDERLINE]

Brandon Lloyd is on 87.7 the ticket right now, and he just got done saying that the players need to do whatever they can to keep Kyle playing - to keep Kyle in the game. He also said they do not want to start looking too far ahead, to cause distractions on this team, and said the team is sticking together. He said that Coach McD knows exactly what he is doing, and the players are not executing. Coach McD gives them the coaching points, and they need to execute it. Again, the team is not turning on Coach McD.

I bet Lloyd wants to keep orton playing. Him and Orton have that big play ability and if Tebow comes in most likely that will fall off. too bad they can't win games with all those passing yards they put on. There last chance was this sunday to start any kind of a comeback and they blew it. Now the Chiefs who are looking really good come into town. Then at SD who always play well in November. So don't blink or we will be 2-8 real quick:tsk:

[cuzz4169]

I keep reading everyone saying Tebow is not a good pocket passer...prove it!! You can watch film where he has made great throws from pocket....shot just watch last years bowl game. Steve Young wasn't a good pocket passer either!!! yea right...Just for everyones information on world class athletes who play div. 1 football 90% of the guys have the talent to play in the nfl they just don't work at it when they get there.

[cuzz4169]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WNWFPDls1I

a lot of pocket passes.....honestly if you haven't watched him in his 4 yrs at Florida and you just go by the talk you have NO CLUE how good he is.

[Ravage!!!]

I keep reading everyone saying Tebow is not a good pocket passer...prove it!! You can watch film where he has made great throws from pocket....shot just watch last years bowl game. Steve Young wasn't a good pocket passer either!!! yea right...Just for everyones information on world class athletes who play div. 1 football 90% of the guys have the talent to play in the nfl they just don't work at it when they get there.

Your just making up numbers.

I don't recall anyone saying anything about Tebow's "pocket passing." Only his passing in general. I know at the senior bowl, the coaches were NOT impressed with Tebow's inability to read defenses. They weren't impressed with his accuracy.

Also... anyone can make a highlight reel of any player, and make them look good.

[cuzz4169]

Your just making up numbers.

I don't recall anyone saying anything about Tebow's "pocket passing." Only his passing in general. I know at the senior bowl, the coaches were NOT impressed with Tebow's inability to read defenses. They weren't impressed with his accuracy.

Also... anyone can make a highlight reel of any player, and make them look good.

lol find me a video where Tebow looked bad. if you find one i bet its about 45secs long. And how many of those coaches are on record saying that? senior bowl means jack $%&t. The kid has been a passer all his life you guys act like he just showed up...he held the Florida state high school passing records. Not rushing passing the kid has always been a passing qb. as for the making up #s believe what you want how many college athletes you know or have you played college ball?

[Ravage!!!]

lol find me a video where Tebow looked bad. if you find one i bet its about 45secs long. And how many of those coaches are on record saying that? senior bowl means jack $%&t. The kid has been a passer all his life you guys act like he just showed up...he held the Florida state high school passing records. Not rushing passing the kid has always been a passing qb. as for the making up #s believe what you want how many college athletes you know or have you played college ball?

:lol:

I can see you are pretty reasonable in your perspective.

but 90% aren't good enough to make the NFL. Thats just the facts, thats just reality, and thats just the truth. As far as the the rest of your made up numbers (like the 45 seconds one)..... I'm not going to waste my time.

[Mike]

Look at it this way, at least we would have some idea on whether or not we have a keeper at QB or if it is yet another position we need to look at for the draft.

[cuzz4169]

:lol:

I can see you are pretty reasonable in your perspective.

but 90% aren't good enough to make the NFL. Thats just the facts, thats just reality, and thats just the truth. As far as the the rest of your made up numbers (like the 45 seconds one)..... I'm not going to waste my time.

you have no clue then. let me rephrase 90% of the top programs...they have all of your elite athletes...subtract your san jose st....nevada and teams like that they get scraps. Do you have an idea the difference between a world class athlete and your local stud athlete? are you one of those guys who says man why doesnt goodman cover better i can cover him better than that? or i could tackle him? how many of you are that guy? if you are you have no idea.

[cuzz4169]

the whole point of this thread is we are 2-6...going no where...why not play Tebow get him a head start...8 games of live action is huge....why continue to run orton out there and continue to lose when Tebow can do the same but be learning on the job?! say Tebow is our starter next year or even the following year with no game xp...its still like him being a rookie...

[Ravage!!!]

you have no clue then. let me rephrase 90% of the top programs...they have all of your elite athletes...subtract your san jose st....nevada and teams like that they get scraps. Do you have an idea the difference between a world class athlete and your local stud athlete? are you one of those guys who says man why doesnt goodman cover better i can cover him better than that? or i could tackle him? how many of you are that guy? if you are you have no idea.

I think you just proved my point for me. 90% of the guys that play are NOT NFL Caliber. In fact, 90% of what Tebow played against are NOT NFL caliber. But in the NFL...100% of the defensive players he will face... ARE NFL caliber.

I would like to see him play. But I'm not expecting him to light it up like you florida fans seem to believe. But I'm willing to watch and see.

[cuzz4169]

I think you just proved my point for me. 90% of the guys that play are NOT NFL Caliber. In fact, 90% of what Tebow played against are NOT NFL caliber. But in the NFL...100% of the defensive players he will face... ARE NFL caliber.

I would like to see him play. But I'm not expecting him to light it up like you florida fans seem to believe. But I'm willing to watch and see.

I agree....my first statement was wrong thats why i rephrased. BC your in the NFL doesn't make you NFL material we can all name names...Tebow has done nothing but get better at every level. I don't expect him to light it up not as a rookie. Not even next year....did elway? but the xp is huge!!!! yes aaron rogers sat but he played in 7 games he didnt just sit. There are different circumstances on why you would play that rookie and a 2-6 record going no where are good enough for me as a fan.

The thing that kills me are people who judge Tebow and have never really watched him. you have either seen some bad or all his good...Ive seen all of it and his good outways his bad 30 fold....30 years from now kids will look back at Kyle ortons #s from this year and say man he must have been a great QB...Is that true?

[Ravage!!!]

I agree....my first statement was wrong thats why i rephrased. BC your in the NFL doesn't make you NFL material we can all name names...Tebow has done nothing but get better at every level. I don't expect him to light it up not as a rookie. Not even next year....did elway? but the xp is huge!!!! yes aaron rogers sat but he played in 7 games he didnt just sit. There are different circumstances on why you would play that rookie and a 2-6 record going no where are good enough for me as a fan.

The thing that kills me are people who judge Tebow and have never really watched him. you have either seen some bad or all his good...Ive seen all of it and his good outways his bad 30 fold....30 years from now kids will look back at Kyle ortons #s from this year and say man he must have been a great QB...Is that true?

I don't look at numbers. But Tebow's style of play, just has not translated well into the NFL. Thats why people are hesitant to believe he's more than a good COLLEGE QB. LOTS of great athletes have come through college. Many QBs have won national titles, and Heismans, and not succeeded in the NFL. If Tebow had a style of play that usually translated into the NFL, then the scouts wouldn't have guessed him to be a 2-3 rounder.

I mean, if he was as good of a QB as you claim, why wasn't he even rated as teh best QB (not to mention player) in the draft? Elway NEVER won a bowl game....yet STILL has the best rating of ANY player ever to come out of college.

Leinart is lft handed, won two titles and a Heisman. Sound familiar?

Look. I'mnot saying TT isn't a great athlete. I'm not even saying he CAN'T be a good QB. I'm saying that I don't think his college success means he's going to be a good (nor great) NFL QB. Nor do I personally believe that his style of play will translate into a good NFL QB. Now, I also admit that I may be REALLLY far off. But from what I've seen, I just don't believe it. Just as I don't think VY is a good NFl QB.

But I'm ready to see him play. I don't like spending a first round pick on a QB/player that sits the bench..NOR do I believe that sitting is the best thing for him. I think experience is by FAR much better than watching.

[JaxBroncoGirl]

We cannot stress enough what Tebow brings to the table. If we would just give him a chance. For heavens sake, just how bad can it get on the Broncos?

[cuzz4169]

Hes not gonna be a option qb in the nfl...hes a guy if the pocket breaks down he can run...hes steve young 2.0 he puts pressure on the defense...Im just defending his passing skills bc I believe hes pretty good...pro scouts miss a lot so there evaluation really means nothing its a crap shoot..there are very few cant miss prospects. for example hahaha we had quinn as a second round TE can u believe that hahaha...just saying a lot of scouts miss they get fooled by workouts or film (cant scout work ethic)...Tebow is a rare person it really is 50/50 bc he could be a stud or a bust no doubt about it....but i believe in the stud part sorry...

[I Eat Staples]

Why can't Orton be the future at QB? I don't understand why everyone thinks we need to either let Tebow be the future or waste yet another draft pick on a QB. Orton is playing well and he's pretty young, so why in the world has everyone already given up on him?

[lgenf]

Why can't Orton be the future at QB? I don't understand why everyone thinks we need to either let Tebow be the future or waste yet another draft pick on a QB. Orton is playing well and he's pretty young, so why in the world has everyone already given up on him?

b/c he's not a winner

[Denver Native (Carol)]

b/c he's not a winner

Explain how Tebow is going to heal the injured players, fix the OL/DL line, etc?

[sneakers]

Unfortunately, having good leadership and being popular isn't going to help Tebow read defenses or throw the ball with consistent accuracy and touch.

Also, when is the last time a running QB led a team to the superbowl, if ever?

If Rex Grossman can get to the Superbowl, anyone can!!!!!

[BroncoStud]

Why can't Orton be the future at QB? I don't understand why everyone thinks we need to either let Tebow be the future or waste yet another draft pick on a QB. Orton is playing well and he's pretty young, so why in the world has everyone already given up on him?

He is too limited physically and he folds like paper under any sort of pressure. With the game on the line he is anything but clutch, he caves.

[I Eat Staples]

b/c he's not a winner

Because he doesn't have a team or coach. If we give up on Kyle, watch him go win a superbowl with the Vikings or someone. I honestly believe if the Vikings had Kyle Orton they'd have a winning record, even with that clown Brad Childress as a coach.

Oh, and if the Jets had Kyle I think they'd be undefeated.

[sneakers]

Explain how Tebow is going to heal the injured players, fix the OL/DL line, etc?

Carol, He is Jesus. :D

[BroncoStud]

Explain how Tebow is going to heal the injured players, fix the OL/DL line, etc?

He's not, but he might provide a spark that this team badly needs. Orton doesn't rally any sort of excitement or hope...

He just does not have the "IT" factor. He isn't a bad player but he isn't able to carry a team.

[BroncoStud]

Because he doesn't have a team or coach. If we give up on Kyle, watch him go win a superbowl with the Vikings or someone. I honestly believe if the Vikings had Kyle Orton they'd have a winning record, even with that clown Brad Childress as a coach.

Oh, and if the Jets had Kyle I think they'd be undefeated.

I think it's a bit early to write off McDaniels. He's rebuilding a roster that Shanahan patched on a yearly basis. With Brady and Cassel McDaniels scored a LOT of points and set some records. Orton needs a lot of help to be in a position to win a game. You guys amaze me that you would settle for a player that should be an NFL backup or a fringe starter.

The guy has a noodle arm. He can't throw a strike more than 10 yards. It's almost painful to watch.

[I Eat Staples]

He's not, but he might provide a spark that this team badly needs. Orton doesn't rally any sort of excitement or hope...

He just does not have the "IT" factor. He isn't a bad player but he isn't able to carry a team.

Actually he's carried us this entire season. He can't do much more than he already has. Build a team around this guy and we'll be fine.

[Ravage!!!]

Why can't Orton be the future at QB? I don't understand why everyone thinks we need to either let Tebow be the future or waste yet another draft pick on a QB. Orton is playing well and he's pretty young, so why in the world has everyone already given up on him?

He's playing the best he ever has, but still is bad in the second half/fourth quarter, and still doesn't do well about putting points on the board. He doesn't win if the other team scores. We average 19 points a game this season. He's playing good, but I don't really think many feel or see that Ortonis a guy that you can really rely on to take your team to the next level. He's a good fill-in, a guy that you can keep until you find THE guy.

[I Eat Staples]

I think it's a bit early to write off McDaniels. He's rebuilding a roster that Shanahan patched on a yearly basis. With Brady and Cassel McDaniels scored a LOT of points and set some records. Orton needs a lot of help to be in a position to win a game. You guys amaze me that you would settle for a player that should be an NFL backup or a fringe starter.

The guy has a noodle arm. He can't throw a strike more than 10 yards. It's almost painful to watch.

How does he lead the NFL in passes of 40+ yards then? Orton is not an NFL backup, and he doesn't have a "noodle arm".

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Carol, He is Jesus. :D

I'm sure some of the "new this year" Bronco fans think so. Give Orton a running game, a great/good OL, and our record would be much better.

[I Eat Staples]

I'm sure some of the "new this year" Bronco fans think so. Give Orton a running game, a great/good OL, and our record would be much better.

Quoted for truth. Not to mention, give him a defense and we'd probably be on top of our division.

[Ravage!!!]

Give ANY QB a great running game and a great defense and they can do ok. Its when you DON'T have those things or when they break down when you need top QBs to pull you through. What has Orton shown in the end of these games this year?

He's not the worst in the league by any means, but I don't think he's the guy that you can rely on to WIN you games. I think the 4-14 record since our defense stopped shuttingteams out, shows that. He doesn't score, and absolutely doesn't score in the fourth quarter when needed.

Thats just how I feel. Plus.. we've already spent 4 draft choices to get Tebow. Thats a lot of investment for a guy to sit behind someone like Orton. If you are going to make that investement... he BETTER be better than Orton.

[Broncolingus]

I don't know about Tebow...

But, if Denver wants to fix the season - and more - then simply do the following:

- Run the ball with regularity and effectively

- Stop the run and pressure the QB regularly

- Score in the Red Zone regularly

- Be physical and mentally tough

Do that, and you'll be playing competitively in January every time...

Granted, easier said than done, but those are things that have been absent - regularly - from Denver Bronco's football for far too long...

JMO

[BroncoStud]

Actually he's carried us this entire season. He can't do much more than he already has. Build a team around this guy and we'll be fine.

Build a team around Kyle Orton? Please say your kidding...

[BroncoStud]

How does he lead the NFL in passes of 40+ yards then? Orton is not an NFL backup, and he doesn't have a "noodle arm".

He's hitting Brandon Lloyd wide open in the secondary. 2 of those came against the Ravens at the end of the game when the Broncos had failed to convert on 3rd down all day long... One of them came this week in a very nice touch throw to Lloyd who beat his man right up the seam... The Broncos throw the ball as much as anyone. You want to compare offenses, look at the Chargers, and then look at the Broncos.

Rivers vs Orton... Come on...

Yes, Orton does have a noodle arm. He's right there with Trent Green, Marc Bulger, John Kitna... Guys that are accurate but have so-so arms.

[cuzz4169]

I don't know about Tebow...

But, if Denver wants to fix the season - and more - then simply do the following:

- Run the ball with regularity and effectively

- Stop the run and pressure the QB regularly

- Score in the Red Zone regularly

- Be physical and mentally tough

Do that, and you'll be playing competitively in January every time...

Granted, easier said than done, but those are things that have been absent - regularly - from Denver Bronco's football for far too long...

JMO

Like it but I think thats what every team tries to do...

[BroncoStud]

I'm sure some of the "new this year" Bronco fans think so. Give Orton a running game, a great/good OL, and our record would be much better.

Give ANY QB those things and he will do much better... That goes without saying. That is exactly the point we are arguing. Orton can't win without most or all of those. Elite Quarterbacks can. Kyle is not elite, he never has been.

I really can't understand how Broncos fans could accept the notion of having Kyle Orton as the quarterback of the future. He's at his WORST when the team needs him to be at his best. Our conversion rate has been at the bottom of the NFL since he came here.

[cuzz4169]

If you think Kyle Orton is the man...........god I have no punch line bc Im freaking amazed!!

Put him on another team and guess what hes a back up...he just fits the system...yes he makes the plays when no pressure is on when its played out like in practice...but when heat is on he cant get it done...sorta like me in basketball i can make all the shots in practice in a game I cant make a shot.....System QB Kyle Orton=Matt Cassel.

[broncobryce]

I don't think ortons the problem but he's definitely not the solution.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

[NorCalBronco7]

Drafting Tebow told fans that Orton was a short-timer, especially since he only was under contract through 2010 at the time. So that means at some point during the season Tebow would take over, unless we were winning a lot of games.

We're not.

But now Orton has had an additional year added to his deal (at 8 million dollars) and has improved his performance in this offense (partly due to a useless running game).

So is Orton our QB for next year - whenever that year of football gets played - or not?

If he's not, then at some point in a lost season Tebow should become the starter. Why spend time trying to "win games" with Orton when Orton's not gonna be here next year anyway?

If Orton's gonna be next year's starter as well, then Tebow can sit and wait just fine for his shot in late 2011/2012.

That's the call that has to be made. It's not about Orton. It's about who is the QB of the future for this team, and how long that future is for.

I still wouldn't put Tebow in to be killed in games right now, but if he's the guy for next year then at some point you add an extra blocking TE on the right side (didn't we draft one of those REALLY HIGH?) to help the RT protect Tebow's blind side and go for it.

But that would require knowledge of a coherent plan, and so far I haven't seen any indication we have one of those. :coffee:

~G

This^^^^

[UrbanBounca]

Give ANY QB those things and he will do much better... That goes without saying. That is exactly the point we are arguing. Orton can't win without most or all of those. Elite Quarterbacks can. Kyle is not elite, he never has been.

I really can't understand how Broncos fans could accept the notion of having Kyle Orton as the quarterback of the future. He's at his WORST when the team needs him to be at his best. Our conversion rate has been at the bottom of the NFL since he came here.

Who is arguing that Orton is elite? No, he's not good in the clutch, and no, I don't trust him in a two minute drill, but for God sakes, we could have JaMarcus Russell or Trent Edwards.
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[Lancane]

Unfortunately, Tebow is not ready... Be careful of what you wish for, because sometimes wishes come true! Anyone remember that old adage? I've said since the beginning that Tim Tebow reminds me a lot of Joe Montana, both are physically tough, have pretty good arms, are athletic beyond the normal and both came out of college with questionable mechanics.

Montana had a learning curve, in his rookie seasons 1979, like Tim he played in every game his first season, doing this or that...he rushed for 22 yards and passed for 96. In the 1980 season he had questionable numbers, but showed flashes of his potential...it was not till his third year that he broke out and became a true all around franchise quarterback. If Tebow is rushed he could end up being out of the league sooner rather then later.

[topscribe]

I think it's a bit early to write off McDaniels. He's rebuilding a roster that Shanahan patched on a yearly basis. With Brady and Cassel McDaniels scored a LOT of points and set some records. Orton needs a lot of help to be in a position to win a game. You guys amaze me that you would settle for a player that should be an NFL backup or a fringe starter.

The guy has a noodle arm. He can't throw a strike more than 10 yards. It's almost painful to watch.

Yes, it must be for you. Because you obviously haven't watched . . .

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[topscribe]

He's not, but he might provide a spark that this team badly needs. Orton doesn't rally any sort of excitement or hope...

He just does not have the "IT" factor. He isn't a bad player but he isn't able to carry a team.

I still do not know what the "IT" factor is.

Would you be so kind as to define it for me?

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[BroncoStud]

I don't think it really matters. McDaniels is married to the Tim Tebow pick. Eventually he will have to play Tebow to either buy himself time or show that he was right. On the current course he is going to be fired anyway, so all signs point to him having to go with Tebow sooner than much later.

[topscribe]

Give ANY QB those things and he will do much better... That goes without saying. That is exactly the point we are arguing. Orton can't win without most or all of those. Elite Quarterbacks can. Kyle is not elite, he never has been.

I really can't understand how Broncos fans could accept the notion of having Kyle Orton as the quarterback of the future. He's at his WORST when the team needs him to be at his best. Our conversion rate has been at the bottom of the NFL since he came here.

Please, tell me what "elite" QB can win without a running game, good O-line and
a decent defense. Name that QB and provide examples of the year(s) that he
did it.

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[BroncoStud]

Please, tell me what "elite" QB can win without a running game, good O-line and
a decent defense. Name that QB and provide examples of the year(s) that he
did it.

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What I am saying, and you seem to be unable to grasp, is that a REAL QB can mask those problems and make the team around him better. A few more 3rd down coversions and we might win 2 more games. If you are ok having a QB that crumbles under pressure, fine, Orton is your guy.

I expect and wish for more. As far back as Purdue watching Orton play was just blah, a future NFL backup in the making. I can see why after a few years the Chicago fans were just depressed watching their offense.

You can wish for Orton to remain the starter and I can wish that the Broncos try to find a big-time franchise QB. I would rather watch a guy like Cutler throw interceptions and develop slowly because his ceiling is so much higher.

We aren't the 2000 Ravens or the 2002 Bucs, this roster is going to need someone with some big-time ability in the next many seasons. Orton isn't it. He's just a guy playing well in an offense that protects his weaknesses. He chokes with the game on the line and he isn't leading the team into the endzone.

I'm tired of going over it, soon enough we will get to see if Tebow is the guy or not, if he isn't, then it's back to the drawing board.

[topscribe]

What I am saying, and you seem to be unable to grasp, is that a REAL QB can mask those problems and make the team around him better. A few more 3rd down coversions and we might win 2 more games. If you are ok having a QB that crumbles under pressure, fine, Orton is your guy.

I expect and wish for more. As far back as Purdue watching Orton play was just blah, a future NFL backup in the making. I can see why after a few years the Chicago fans were just depressed watching their offense.

You can wish for Orton to remain the starter and I can wish that the Broncos try to find a big-time franchise QB. I would rather watch a guy like Cutler throw interceptions and develop slowly because his ceiling is so much higher.

We aren't the 2000 Ravens or the 2002 Bucs, this roster is going to need someone with some big-time ability in the next many seasons. Orton isn't it. He's just a guy playing well in an offense that protects his weaknesses. He chokes with the game on the line and he isn't leading the team into the endzone.

I'm tired of going over it, soon enough we will get to see if Tebow is the guy or not, if he isn't, then it's back to the drawing board.

No, I inferred your saying an "elite" QB can win without a good running game,
O-line, and defense. My question was, can you provide a specific example of
such a QB?

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[NorCalBronco7]

Is Tebow ready to be the starter for the Denver Broncos, from this year and on?

The answer isnt as simple as "lets find out". If Tebow is to start anytime soon, then I would assume he'd go into camp in 2011 as the starter. He would also have to be projected as the better Qb than Orton next year if the Broncos are going to play Tebow now.

I cant honestly say I believe Tebow would be as good or better Qb as Orton next year. Orton has got better every year and is already much further along than Tebow in the Broncos complicated offense. Orton is playing well this year dispite being sacked from all directions and not having a Qbs best friend, a running game. How can Tebow be expected to play as well as Orton is, or is going to?

Thats a gamble Im sure the Broncos dont want a part of. Tebow has been called by many experts a project, meaning he will take at least a couple years to be ready for the NFL. The scouts concered over his throwing motion, lack of undercenter experience and 2 read system at flordia are just a few of the hurdles Tebow is going to have to overcome in the NFL. He is poished by no means. And anyone expecting Tebow, with all these hurdles, to be the Broncos best Qb in 2011 has got to have some sort of bias because Orton is already having a good season and is playing the best of his still young career. He also wouldnt have been offered an 8 million dollar contract extention to be a backup.

Orton will mostly likely be the better Qb next year and give the Broncos the best chance of winning to start the 2011 season. Tebow can continue to learn how to be a pro and hopefully grow enough to be ready to start in 2012.

[Northman]

Why can't Orton be the future at QB? I don't understand why everyone thinks we need to either let Tebow be the future or waste yet another draft pick on a QB. Orton is playing well and he's pretty young, so why in the world has everyone already given up on him?

I havent given up on him but drafting Tebow in the first round means that McDaniels wasnt sold on him. Whether that means he is here next year or after i have no idea. But, in the current situation im all for giving Tebow some experience while the team is rebuilding. I said this at draft time but why draft Tebow if Orton is playing well and the future? The Tebow pick made no sense to me because all the talk from McD was that Orton needed more time in the system.

So now if Orton keeps playing well it means we have to make a decision on who our starting QB is going to be just like the Chargers faced with Rivers/Brees. We just cant let a 1st round draft pick go to waste on the bench so either we move Tebow or we move Orton. Thats the decison that McDaniels will be faced with but at this point in time i would like to see what Tebow has to offer vs Orton. Its not about wins for the rest of the year for me because the season is lost.


As for Tebow,

He was a great college QB but nothing guarantees that he will be great at the NFL level. I used to like the Gators when my Cavaliers werent doing very well (which is often) but ever since Tebow arrived ive gotten totally annoyed by their fanbase. They are completely delusional and not very logical when it comes from players translating from the college ranks to the pros. What Tebow did in college means jack squat here and now.

With that said, i still want to see what we have in him right now. Orton has done what he can to keep the team a float but with health, youth, etc. its just too much to overcome and i would much rather see the young guys get some playing time so that if Orton is here next year Tebow will BE THAT MUCH MORE READY to fill in just in case Orton goes down, let go, or traded. It would not be a crime to allow Tebow to come in and get some experience and considering where he was drafted and the hype surrounding him he should have no problem handling that pressure. Whether he can succeed will remain to be seen but now is the perfect time to see what the kid has.

[Lancane]

Is Tebow ready to be the starter for the Denver Broncos, from this year and on?

The answer isnt as simple as "lets find out". If Tebow is to start anytime soon, then I would assume he'd go into camp in 2011 as the starter. He would also have to be projected as the better Qb than Orton next year if the Broncos are going to play Tebow now.

I cant honestly say I believe Tebow would be as good or better Qb as Orton next year. Orton has got better every year and is already much further along than Tebow in the Broncos complicated offense. Orton is playing well this year dispite being sacked from all directions and not having a Qbs best friend, a running game. How can Tebow be expected to play as well as Orton is, or is going to?

Thats a gamble Im sure the Broncos dont want a part of. Tebow has been called by many experts a project, meaning he will take at least a couple years to be ready for the NFL. The scouts concered over his throwing motion, lack of undercenter experience and 2 read system at flordia are just a few of the hurdles Tebow is going to have to overcome in the NFL. He is poished by no means. And anyone expecting Tebow, with all these hurdles, to be the Broncos best Qb in 2011 has got to have some sort of bias because Orton is already having a good season and is playing the best of his still young career. He also wouldnt have been offered an 8 million dollar contract extention to be a backup.

Orton will mostly likely be the better Qb next year and give the Broncos the best chance of winning to start the 2011 season. Tebow can continue to learn how to be a pro and hopefully grow enough to be ready to start in 2012.

While I agree with some things you stated Nor, it seems to me that you listen and with that believe more of what half-ass experts have said over true and knowledgeable people in the field. For example, you stated that the Broncos' offense is complex, that is false...the Spread and Pro-Spread variants are quarterback friendly and are less complex then the more standard schemes used in football, such as the West Coast, Coryell or for that matter even the Wild Cat. There is a reason why it's the most in play scheme in all of collegiate football, that's because it's got a shorter learning curve then the more complex and riskier offenses give the Run & Shoot which is the grandfather system the spread was created from.

Orton is having a career year, not because he's good, but because he fits the system...it's a quarterback friendly offense which pads stats and eliminates mistakes, something that almost all other schemes have more issues with. So is Orton really as good as his numbers? No, he's not...but he is doing well in the system and right now...I just can not see them justifying the switch and only because he needs time to develop.

As for what the so-called scouts have said about him...who gives a shit, I listen to Mayock and Gruden over half those dumbshits and only one or two of them have real football experience! He comes from a spread offensive system, and it's the same damn one that McDaniels bases his off of! You did know that, right? Meyer's spread offense is the model that New England has used since it started using the spread... Now Tebow has some mechanical issues, that is true...but so did Young, Montana, Bradshaw and a few others, and as you said, he just needs time to develop or we risk his career.

As for Orton v.s. Tebow, Orton was given an extension as security and that's the simple truth. But eventually and not too far off from now, Tebow will be given his shot, because Bowlen will not want to pay first round money to a simple backup/wild horse positional player.

[BCJ]

I am all for Tebow getting in some passes during games that orton is in. Here is his throwing stats: 0 attempts, 0 completions for 0 yards. It would have been nice for McD to let him play the entire 4th Quarter of the Raiders game and how about 2nd and 5 actually have a passing play to F up the 49ers defense. He is a perfect player to use in the Wild Horse or whatever it shall be called. Right now, he has no experience to play the whole game. It isnt his fault but the mollases way of McD using him. I am still pissed he brings him in on 2nd and 5 and has him run..... surprise!

[NorCalBronco7]

While I agree with some things you stated Nor, it seems to me that you listen and with that believe more of what half-ass experts have said over true and knowledgeable people in the field. For example, you stated that the Broncos' offense is complex, that is false...the Spread and Pro-Spread variants are quarterback friendly and are less complex then the more standard schemes used in football, such as the West Coast, Coryell or for that matter even the Wild Cat. There is a reason why it's the most in play scheme in all of collegiate football, that's because it's got a shorter learning curve then the more complex and riskier offenses give the Run & Shoot which is the grandfather system the spread was created from.

Orton is having a career year, not because he's good, but because he fits the system...it's a quarterback friendly offense which pads stats and eliminates mistakes, something that almost all other schemes have more issues with. So is Orton really as good as his numbers? No, he's not...but he is doing well in the system and right now...I just can not see them justifying the switch and only because he needs time to develop.

As for what the so-called scouts have said about him...who gives a shit, I listen to Mayock and Gruden over half those dumbshits and only one or two of them have real football experience! He comes from a spread offensive system, and it's the same damn one that McDaniels bases his off of! You did know that, right? Meyer's spread offense is the model that New England has used since it started using the spread... Now Tebow has some mechanical issues, that is true...but so did Young, Montana, Bradshaw and a few others, and as you said, he just needs time to develop or we risk his career.

As for Orton v.s. Tebow, Orton was given an extension as security and that's the simple truth. But eventually and not too far off from now, Tebow will be given his shot, because Bowlen will not want to pay first round money to a simple backup/wild horse positional player.

McDaniels offense is deep and complex. Many of the players have vocalized that.

The Broncos offense is considerably more ambitious and complicated than the scheme in which Orton played with the Bears.

Broncos center Casey Wiegmann, a veteran of 14 NFL seasons, says this by far is the most complex offense he has played in. But Orton has grasped it quickly.

"He has picked up the offense really well," Wiegmann said. "He very rarely makes a mistake."

Orton acknowledges it was a struggle to learn it, a direct derivative of the Patriots offense, after being in the same Chicago offense for four years. But he said he now feels very comfortable after nearly five months.
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2009-08-28/sports/0908280312_1_jay-cutler-kyle-orton-chicago-offense

Heres what Peyton Manning said about the Broncos offense.

“I know our defense will have a challenge against their offense,” Manning said. “They have multiple formations. It’s a complex offense. You have to have a bright guy like Orton to be able to handle that kind of offense. I know its multiple formations, personnel groupings. Our defense will have its hands full.”
http://www.colts.com/sub.cfm?page=article7&news_id=d2855092-3403-4628-aa7d-2fb5701a036c


There are several other examples that McDaniels system is extremely complex. I thought this was common knowledge. Yet the fact that Tebow still has to compete with Orton trumps all the reasons against him starting anytime soon.




I dont buy the idea that Ortons stats are inflated. The offense, because of a lack of running game, is unbalanced and predictable. Would it be eaiser to pass on defenses if they know your going to pass it? Teams are also more likely to blitz this kind of offense and they have. Maybe thats why Ortons been sacked the 3rd most in the league.:confused: For everything "friendly" about the Broncos offense Orton sure as hell isnt getting any help. Isnt that what friends are for? :lol:

[BroncoStud]

No, I inferred your saying an "elite" QB can win without a good running game,
O-line, and defense. My question was, can you provide a specific example of
such a QB?

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That's a loaded question. I DOUBT, but I can't be sure, that no QB has ever won a Super Bowl without a running game or a decent defense. Now, the Steelers a few years ago won a Super Bowl because Big Ben ran for his life behind what had to have been the WORST offensive line to ever win a Super Bowl, and witout Big Ben's mobility and poise, there is NO WAY a guy like Charlie Batch even makes the playoffs in that situation...

Marion had very competitive seasons without much of a running game or a top defense. I'm sure there are plenty of examples of teams doing better than they should have because of great QB play.

In 2007, the Patriots threw the ball so well and dominantly that it actually set up the run. Much like the 49ers did in 1981. But as a defense you simply have to respect Brady's ability to throw strikes more than you do Orton's.

I think Orton has played well within the system. He's not great but he's a solid temporary holdover until someone great comes along - if they ever do. I think it would be a waste not to get Tebow some reps this year in meaningful action on the field. Like I sad, Josh is married to the Tebow draft pick. He can't hold him out for a few years because likely he won't be around. I am guessing that as we continue to lose he will declare a full rebuild any buy himself some time.

Amazingly, Orton has actually created some trade value for himself. I can see a team like Arizona making a play for him. He would probably do pretty well there.

[I Eat Staples]

Give ANY QB a great running game and a great defense and they can do ok. Its when you DON'T have those things or when they break down when you need top QBs to pull you through. What has Orton shown in the end of these games this year?

He's not the worst in the league by any means, but I don't think he's the guy that you can rely on to WIN you games. I think the 4-14 record since our defense stopped shuttingteams out, shows that. He doesn't score, and absolutely doesn't score in the fourth quarter when needed.

Thats just how I feel. Plus.. we've already spent 4 draft choices to get Tebow. Thats a lot of investment for a guy to sit behind someone like Orton. If you are going to make that investement... he BETTER be better than Orton.

I don't think Tebow will even be better than Quinn.


Build a team around Kyle Orton? Please say your kidding...

No, I'm not. This is a pass-happy league and we have a capable QB.


He's hitting Brandon Lloyd wide open in the secondary. 2 of those came against the Ravens at the end of the game when the Broncos had failed to convert on 3rd down all day long... One of them came this week in a very nice touch throw to Lloyd who beat his man right up the seam... The Broncos throw the ball as much as anyone. You want to compare offenses, look at the Chargers, and then look at the Broncos.

Rivers vs Orton... Come on...

Yes, Orton does have a noodle arm. He's right there with Trent Green, Marc Bulger, John Kitna... Guys that are accurate but have so-so arms.

First of all, you don't need a strong arm to succeed. You mentioned Rivers. His arm strength is rather weak. Drew Brees has one of the weakest arms in the NFL. Every starting NFL QB has a strong enough arm to make throws. It doesn't matter if Cutler or Russel can throw 80 yards downfield, you don't do that in a game.

Orton's arm is actually pretty strong.

[I Eat Staples]

I havent given up on him but drafting Tebow in the first round means that McDaniels wasnt sold on him. Whether that means he is here next year or after i have no idea. But, in the current situation im all for giving Tebow some experience while the team is rebuilding. I said this at draft time but why draft Tebow if Orton is playing well and the future? The Tebow pick made no sense to me because all the talk from McD was that Orton needed more time in the system.

So now if Orton keeps playing well it means we have to make a decision on who our starting QB is going to be just like the Chargers faced with Rivers/Brees. We just cant let a 1st round draft pick go to waste on the bench so either we move Tebow or we move Orton. Thats the decison that McDaniels will be faced with but at this point in time i would like to see what Tebow has to offer vs Orton. Its not about wins for the rest of the year for me because the season is lost.


As for Tebow,

He was a great college QB but nothing guarantees that he will be great at the NFL level. I used to like the Gators when my Cavaliers werent doing very well (which is often) but ever since Tebow arrived ive gotten totally annoyed by their fanbase. They are completely delusional and not very logical when it comes from players translating from the college ranks to the pros. What Tebow did in college means jack squat here and now.

With that said, i still want to see what we have in him right now. Orton has done what he can to keep the team a float but with health, youth, etc. its just too much to overcome and i would much rather see the young guys get some playing time so that if Orton is here next year Tebow will BE THAT MUCH MORE READY to fill in just in case Orton goes down, let go, or traded. It would not be a crime to allow Tebow to come in and get some experience and considering where he was drafted and the hype surrounding him he should have no problem handling that pressure. Whether he can succeed will remain to be seen but now is the perfect time to see what the kid has.

I understand that we're not going anywhere this year. I just strongly believe Tebow won't work out. I could be wrong, and I understand people wanting to know what we have in him.

I just honestly have no confidence in McD to make any decision. Tebow should have never even been a first round pick. The biggest problem I have with playing Tebow is that he might not work out and we might lose Orton and be screwed. I don't have enough confidence in Tebow to take that risk.

[lgenf]

I dont buy the idea that Ortons stats are inflated. The offense, because of a lack of running game, is unbalanced and predictable.

his stats are inflated because the broncos are playing from behind in many of these games and defenses are playing to protect the lead, giving up many short - midrange passes

[Lancane]

I dont buy the idea that Ortons stats are inflated. The offense, because of a lack of running game, is unbalanced and predictable. Would it be eaiser to pass on defenses if they know your going to pass it? Teams are also more likely to blitz this kind of offense and they have. Maybe thats why Ortons been sacked the 3rd most in the league.:confused: For everything "friendly" about the Broncos offense Orton sure as hell isnt getting any help. Isnt that what friends are for? :lol:

Then don't buy into it...but it's true. McDaniels, Belichick, Meyers, and several other Spread variant coaches have admitted as much, that the system is quarterback friendly and does pad stats because it lessens high risk, high reward plays that the more high powered aerial football schemes are based on. Joe Tiller said as much, do you know who that is? He was Orton's Head Coach at Purdue, he also used a variant of the spread offense.

Proof is in the pudding sort of speak, because if you look carefully at the situation, you realize that Orton had good college numbers in a spread offense but in Chicago he couldn't run the West Coast offense for crap? Now he's in a spread variant and his numbers again show how he is better in that system. Don't believe me...I really don't give a shit, but everyone who runs the spread offense will tell you that I'm dead on. The only thing complex about the spread offensive scheme is the variety of looks it can give, which does throw defenses off...ever wondered how we can pull off some plays when everyone already knows what's coming?...

Orton isn't getting any help...I agree with that, Lloyd is not as good as his numbers because he's a true number two wideout, Moreno can not run behind the offensive line because he's not a power running back, he fits in a zone blocking scheme better then our new man-to-man scheme which has hurt our team more then helped and again proof is in the entire breakdown of this team, but Orton is not Elway and the spread can only do so much...Orton fits this offense so well that he can run it blindfolded, but he's not great, Brady fits the offense and is great and that is the difference.

[Northman]

I understand that we're not going anywhere this year. I just strongly believe Tebow won't work out. I could be wrong, and I understand people wanting to know what we have in him.

I have no idea if he will work out but i would like to get a sense of what we have in him. Being a first rounder to me means he has the tools to be just fine as long as he is what he is expected to be. If not, than at least we have a good idea.


The biggest problem I have with playing Tebow is that he might not work out and we might lose Orton and be screwed. I don't have enough confidence in Tebow to take that risk.Can you expand on that? How would we lose Orton? This is the same guy who not only had to endure the same QB swapping in Chicago but in the offseason had the HC trade for Quinn and draft a QB in the first round. If your implying that Kyle will get sour i think your selling that man short. One of his greatest attributes is his desire to prove the doubters wrong and in the past ive been one of them. I LOVE the fact that he didnt fold like a wet towel when Tebow was drafted like a certain somebody in 06'. I think Kyle is intelligent enough to see that he isnt the problem on this team and that if McD came up to him and said he was going to give the kid some playing time i dont think Orton would take that as a slight.

[I Eat Staples]

I have no idea if he will work out but i would like to get a sense of what we have in him. Being a first rounder to me means he has the tools to be just fine as long as he is what he is expected to be. If not, than at least we have a good idea.

I don't put any faith in a McD first rounder. I still feel like Tebow is a mid-round talent.


Can you expand on that? How would we lose Orton? This is the same guy who not only had to endure the same QB swapping in Chicago but in the offseason had the HC trade for Quinn and draft a QB in the first round. If your implying that Kyle will get sour i think your selling that man short. One of his greatest attributes is his desire to prove the doubters wrong and in the past ive been one of them. I LOVE the fact that he didnt fold like a wet towel when Tebow was drafted like a certain somebody in 06'. I think Kyle is intelligent enough to see that he isnt the problem on this team and that if McD came up to him and said he was going to give the kid some playing time i dont think Orton would take that as a slight.

You're right, and I also admire that about Orton. But there's a whole lot of variables that go into this too. I think a lot of teams would become interested in Orton if they realize he's been benched here, and McD may very well pull the trigger on a deal he likes. (probably a dumb one at that) Also, if they bench Orton and Tebow doesn't work out, they may feel the need to waste another draft pick on a QB. The same thing happened to Orton in Chicago. The player he was benched for didn't work out, but the coaches refused to go back to Orton long-term.

[Dzone]

Tebow has to be getting better and better each week. I mean, they say he prepares like Peyton Manning for games. Each game that goes by, Tebow is one step closer to being able to play

[I Eat Staples]

Tebow has to be getting better and better each week. I mean, they say he prepares like Peyton Manning for games. Each game that goes by, Tebow is one step closer to being able to play

Too bad that's the only thing he does like Peyton.

[NorCalBronco7]

his stats are inflated because the broncos are playing from behind in many of these games and defenses are playing to protect the lead, giving up many short - midrange passes

Well if defense are playing to protect the lead, giving up short - midrange passes, they must be stopping the deep ball then? Nope. Ortons #2 in 20+ and #1 in 40+ yard passes.

So defense that play the Broncos are giving up short, medium and long range passes? How generous!


Then don't buy into it...but it's true. McDaniels, Belichick, Meyers, and several other Spread variant coaches have admitted as much, that the system is quarterback friendly and does pad stats because it lessens high risk, high reward plays that the more high powered aerial football schemes are based on. Joe Tiller said as much, do you know who that is? He was Orton's Head Coach at Purdue, he also used a variant of the spread offense.

Proof is in the pudding sort of speak, because if you look carefully at the situation, you realize that Orton had good college numbers in a spread offense but in Chicago he couldn't run the West Coast offense for crap? Now he's in a spread variant and his numbers again show how he is better in that system. Don't believe me...I really don't give a shit, but everyone who runs the spread offense will tell you that I'm dead on. The only thing complex about the spread offensive scheme is the variety of looks it can give, which does throw defenses off...ever wondered how we can pull off some plays when everyone already knows what's coming?...

Orton isn't getting any help...I agree with that, Lloyd is not as good as his numbers because he's a true number two wideout, Moreno can not run behind the offensive line because he's not a power running back, he fits in a zone blocking scheme better then our new man-to-man scheme which has hurt our team more then helped and again proof is in the entire breakdown of this team, but Orton is not Elway and the spread can only do so much...Orton fits this offense so well that he can run it blindfolded, but he's not great, Brady fits the offense and is great and that is the difference.

Your selling the complexity of the system very short. The only thing complex about McDaniels system is not simply the different looks. The mulitple route adjustments are one of the most difficult aspects of the system with both the qb and wr needing to read the defense and make the correct call. Ever hear from the wrs how difficult the playbook is for them? Recievers in the system have to know multiple routes of a single play as well. Also the sheer size of the playbook is enough to knock a bear out. Theres much more to McDaniels system than you say.

I dont care either if you dont think McDaniels system is complex. Ive givin you examples of Bronco players and even Peyton Manning calling McDaniels system complex! If thats not enough, then I guess you'll never get it.

[topscribe]

I dont buy the idea that Ortons stats are inflated. The offense, because of a lack of running game, is unbalanced and predictable. Would it be eaiser to pass on defenses if they know your going to pass it? Teams are also more likely to blitz this kind of offense and they have. Maybe thats why Ortons been sacked the 3rd most in the league.:confused: For everything "friendly" about the Broncos offense Orton sure as hell isnt getting any help. Isnt that what friends are for? :lol:

I also do not buy that Orton's stats are inflated. If a person bothers to compare,
his 7.9 YPC is higher than any of the "big three" (Manning, Brady, Brees), and
second only to Rivers. He has fewer INTs than most of them, and, believe it or
not, his 12 TDs are right in the ball park with them, along with his 60+% comp.

When you consider that with his porous O-line, lack of running game, low YAC,
and the fact that defenses know he is going to pass, I believe McDaniels means
every word when he says, "We have a good quarterback," and he is not talking
about Quinn or Tebow . . .

-----

[I Eat Staples]

I also do not buy that Orton's stats are inflated. If a person bothers to compare,
his 7.9 YPC is higher than any of the "big three" (Manning, Brady, Brees), and
second only to Rivers. He has fewer INTs than most of them, and, believe it or
not, his 12 TDs are right in the ball park with them, along with his 60+% comp.

When you consider that with his porous O-line, lack of running game, low YAC,
and the fact that defenses know he is going to pass, I believe McDaniels means
every word when he says, "We have a good quarterback," and he is not talking
about Quinn or Tebow . . .

-----

But surely you realize that those stats are "inflated", for a QB like Orton could never put up numbers comparable to that of the "elite" QBs. /sarcasm

[topscribe]

But surely you realize that those stats are "inflated", for a QB like Orton could never put up numbers comparable to that of the "elite" QBs. /sarcasm

All he needs to do is to return to his old RZ form where his QBR was once 97+,
and he really does need to do that. However, I do believe that if the Broncos
could run worth a lick, we would see that happen . . .

-----

[NorCalBronco7]

I also do not buy that Orton's stats are inflated. If a person bothers to compare,
his 7.9 YPC is higher than any of the "big three" (Manning, Brady, Brees), and
second only to Rivers. He has fewer INTs than most of them, and, believe it or
not, his 12 TDs are right in the ball park with them, along with his 60+% comp.

When you consider that with his porous O-line, lack of running game, low YAC,
and the fact that defenses know he is going to pass, I believe McDaniels means
every word when he says, "We have a good quarterback," and he is not talking
about Quinn or Tebow . . .

-----

Yes, I agree.


The Broncos WRs low YAC total is another great example of Orton getting no help yet still producing. Didnt think of that one.

[Lancane]

I also do not buy that Orton's stats are inflated. If a person bothers to compare,
his 7.9 YPC is higher than any of the "big three" (Manning, Brady, Brees), and
second only to Rivers. He has fewer INTs than most of them, and, believe it or
not, his 12 TDs are right in the ball park with them, along with his 60+% comp.

When you consider that with his porous O-line, lack of running game, low YAC,
and the fact that defenses know he is going to pass, I believe McDaniels means
every word when he says, "We have a good quarterback," and he is not talking
about Quinn or Tebow . . .

-----

Top, it's a proven, conceptual fact that the spread offense pads stats. I'm not basing this off a hunch out of my ass... Orton's past proves as much, look at his numbers in a spread offense, his touchdown to interception ratio has always been better in a spread offensive scheme, whereas his numbers in the West Coast are horrid at best...why? His numbers against the top quarterbacks in the league are not because he is that good, it's because he is that good in the system...hence, he is in fact a system quarterback. I'm not taking anything away from him, I'm not downplaying what he's done this season, especially when he's trying to carry this sorry ass unit of a team. But he would not be fairing well in Indianapolis or Washington, or even in Dallas. He's a good fit for the system, I've always said he would be okay in the system, have I not? There is a reason for that.

[Lancane]

Yes, I agree.


The Broncos WRs low YAC total is another great example of Orton getting no help yet still producing. Didnt think of that one.

Of course it's true, it's also the lack of help he has that has his numbers so high. With no run game to speak of and wideouts that can't gain yardage or find the endzone for shit, he's having to throw more and more and more, therein building up his stats. If Denver had last year's offensive line the running game would be better, and thus his stats would be lower and he would not be having to throw as much...this is when Marshall would have been a big help to Orton, Lloyd with Marshall would have as a tandem helped Orton in a big way.

[NorCalBronco7]

Of course it's true, it's also the lack of help he has that has his numbers so high. With no run game to speak of and wideouts that can't gain yardage or find the endzone for shit, he's having to throw more and more and more, therein building up his stats. If Denver had last year's offensive line the running game would be better, and thus his stats would be lower and he would not be having to throw as much...this is when Marshall would have been a big help to Orton, Lloyd with Marshall would have as a tandem helped Orton in a big way.

I will never concede that having a one dimentional offense is better for the players stats. If the defense knows whats going on, they will always have an easier time stopping it. The lack of help hurts Orton, IMO.

[topscribe]

Top, it's a proven, conceptual fact that the spread offense pads stats. I'm not basing this off a hunch out of my ass... Orton's past proves as much, look at his numbers in a spread offense, his touchdown to interception ratio has always been better in a spread offensive scheme, whereas his numbers in the West Coast are horrid at best...why? His numbers against the top quarterbacks in the league are not because he is that good, it's because he is that good in the system...hence, he is in fact a system quarterback. I'm not taking anything away from him, I'm not downplaying what he's done this season, especially when he's trying to carry this sorry ass unit of a team. But he would not be fairing well in Indianapolis or Washington, or even in Dallas. He's a good fit for the system, I've always said he would be okay in the system, have I not? There is a reason for that.

Orton did well in Chicago before his high ankle sprain - well enough that people
were using the adjective "hot" in reference to him. They didn't have much of a
system at all.

And maybe you notice I mentioned Brady? Brady plays in the same kind of
spread offense. No one that I know of has accused Brady of "padding." Yet
Orton has literally hung with Brady in performance this year. He is right there
with Brady in comp %, TDs, INTs, QBR, and his 7.9 YPC exceeds Brady's 7.1,
and he has nearly twice the yardage.

Whether he would do well in those other cities, you do not know that any more
than I do, at least not enough to categorically say he would not. But my guess
is that he would do fine, now that he has had the McDaniels to develop him,
which is what I was saying he needed clear back when he was in Chicago.

Don't forget that Orton is passing into the teeth of defenses who are expecting
him to pass, something defenses cannot afford to do against NE because NE's
running game is far superior to the Broncos'.

-----

[nevcraw]

Orton did well in Chicago before his high ankle sprain - well enough that people
were using the adjective "hot" in reference to him. They didn't have much of a
system at all.

And maybe you notice I mentioned Brady? Brady plays in the same kind of
spread offense. No one that I know of has accused Brady of "padding." Yet
Orton has literally hung with Brady in performance this year. He is right there
with Brady in comp %, TDs, INTs, QBR, and his 7.9 YPC exceeds Brady's 7.1,
and he has nearly twice the yardage.

Whether he would do well in those other cities, you do not know that any more
than I do, at least not enough to categorically say he would not. But my guess
is that he would do fine, now that he has had the McDaniels to develop him,
which is what I was saying he needed clear back when he was in Chicago . . .

-----

marsha, Marsha, MARSHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[I Eat Staples]

A QB and the system he plays in work hand in hand. If done properly, they both make each other look better. That doesn't take anything away from either, it shows a job well done by both sides.

If you put every starting QB in the NFL on a different team with different systems, you'll get different results. Of course the great QBs will still be great, and the bottom-tier ones will still be bottom-tier, but the stats will look a lot different. It can also be the difference between a mediocre QB really taking off, or staying doomed to obscurity.

[NorCalBronco7]

Still, not one person has come up with an example of a rookie starting over a solid vet!

Thats because it never happens!

[cuzz4169]

Still, not one person has come up with an example of a rookie starting over a solid vet!

Thats because it never happens!

if your winning why would ya? who would replace a vet when their winning ahh duh.

[NorCalBronco7]

if your winning why would ya? who would replace a vet when their winning ahh duh.

Ortons playing solid and were still losing! :eek:

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Ortons playing solid and were still losing! :eek:

I will say it once again - Orton is NOT the problem.

[Medford Bronco]

Still, not one person has come up with an example of a rookie starting over a solid vet!

Thats because it never happens!

It happened in NY when Eli Manning went in for Kurt Warner
when the Giants were 5-4 in 2004



So you are wrong :coffee:

[Medford Bronco]

I will say it once again - Orton is NOT the problem.

He is not the problem but not the future right now

I like him but want to see what Tebow can bring in this lost season.

its not like we are going to win 8 in a row or something with our pathetic OL, run defeetnse and running backs.


Get Tebow some time now for the future.

[cuzz4169]

Ortons playing solid and were still losing! :eek:

Ortons #s are solid doesn't mean hes playing solid....#s really arent the telling tale in football......If he was playing mistake free football I would agree with ya.....but he's not.

[cuzz4169]

I will say it once again - Orton is NOT the problem.

No one is saying he's the problem...but he's not your qb you build your team around...and we are not sure if Tebow is...so at this point in the season its a perfect situation to play tebow and see what we have....If you dont and orton starts next year and we are winning...you cant replace orton and we have a first round QB rotting on the bench....Orton is a FA and we could be screwed....give him the xp now while we can.

[NorCalBronco7]

Ortons #s are solid doesn't mean hes playing solid....#s really arent the telling tale in football......If he was playing mistake free football I would agree with ya.....but he's not.

Haha

Ok, if statisics are not a good measurement of a players performence, tell me a better one?

Let me guess, you forming an opinion on the couch?

I also never said he was playing mistake free. I said he is playing solid, which he is.

[cuzz4169]

Haha

Ok, if statisics are not a good measurement of a players performence, tell me a better one?

Let me guess, you forming an opinion on the couch?

I also never said he was playing mistake free. I said he is playing solid, which he is.

Performance on third down and in the red zone....no more to say...thats how you win games and he sucks at it.

[frauschieze]

How about we keep the argument about rookies starting over "solid vets" in one freakin' thread.

kthxbai

[NorCalBronco7]

Performance on third down and in the red zone....no more to say...thats how you win games and he sucks at it.

When the Broncos are consistently faced with 3rd and 7+ because of a running game thats ranked last in the NFL, it makes converting much, much more difficult.

Also the red zone % would be much better with something that resembles a running game.

Orton can do EVERYTHING now can he?

[NorCalBronco7]

How about we keep the argument about rookies starting over "solid vets" in one freakin' thread.

kthxbai

Your right.

cuzz4169 go into the rookies starting over solid vets if you want to discuss this more.

[BroncoStud]

When the Broncos are consistently faced with 3rd and 7+ because of a running game thats ranked last in the NFL, it makes converting much, much more difficult.

Also the red zone % would be much better with something that resembles a running game.

Orton can do EVERYTHING now can he?

Isn't the spread offense designed to substitute for runs with short passing routes? It isn't ALL Orton's fault, but certainly he gets some of the blame, he's the freaking QB. He touches the ball more than anyone.

I suppose he gets credit for all those passing yards we're putting up, not the line, not the WRs, it's ALL Orton...

This is a spread offense. Denver throws the ball. Big Ben won a Super Bowl with a line worse than this one a few years ago.

[Ravage!!!]

When the Broncos are consistently faced with 3rd and 7+ because of a running game thats ranked last in the NFL, it makes converting much, much more difficult.

Also the red zone % would be much better with something that resembles a running game.

Orton can do EVERYTHING now can he?

So tell me.... if the QB isn't supposed to be a big part of converting those 3-7s.... whats he supposed to do? Whats the team relying on him to do? Teams don't have a lot of 3rd and 7s? Teams normally run on 3rd and 7? If not, then you are saying that most teams throw on3rd and 7 and that would mean that most teams defend the pass on 3rd and 7...yes?

Seems you want to alleviate Orton of everything, and then call him "solid."

[topscribe]

So tell me.... if the QB isn't supposed to be a big part of converting those 3-7s.... whats he supposed to do? Whats the team relying on him to do? Teams don't have a lot of 3rd and 7s? Teams normally run on 3rd and 7? If not, then you are saying that most teams throw on3rd and 7 and that would mean that most teams defend the pass on 3rd and 7...yes?

Seems you want to alleviate Orton of everything, and then call him "solid."

I think I just read in his post something about "I also never said he was playing mistake free."

-----

[Krugan]

Ill go out on a limb here and predict Tebow doesnt start in 2 weeks with the Chiefs at home.

Why?

Simple, this is our last chance and best chance to at least make an attempt to get things on the right track this season. We have a home game after a bye against a team in the division.

Just not something that would be wise, we lose this next game then pull the trigger, but not until then.

[Ravage!!!]

Ill go out on a limb here and predict Tebow doesnt start in 2 weeks with the Chiefs at home.

Why?

Simple, this is our last chance and best chance to at least make an attempt to get things on the right track this season. We have a home game after a bye against a team in the division.

Just not something that would be wise, we lose this next game then pull the trigger, but not until then.


Yeah. I agree. I don't think the coaches will (nor really should) declare the season a "loss" like we the fans do. He can't. He has a locker room of players and a boss to look up to that is looking for ANY kind of win. I don't blame McD for not seeing the season (yet) as one where we can make a move at QB.

However.... knowing I have more room to feel when the season is lost, I would like to go ahead and see the change. Its too early to make it, realistically, but :shrugs:.... who cares?

At least it would give me something to care about when I watch the games. :beer:

[slim]

Yeah. I agree. I don't think the coaches will (nor really should) declare the season a "loss" like we the fans do. He can't. He has a locker room of players and a boss to look up to that is looking for ANY kind of win. I don't blame McD for not seeing the season (yet) as one where we can make a move at QB.

However.... knowing I have more room to feel when the season is lost, I would like to go ahead and see the change. Its too early to make it, realistically, but :shrugs:.... who cares?

At least it would give me something to care about when I watch the games. :beer:

He is showing a great deal of patience and maybe a little maturity. Especially when you consider how much he likes Tebow. I have to give him credit for that.

But you are right; fans can wear their emotions on their sleeves and can make all the knee-jerk reactions they want. He can't do that.

[Ravage!!!]

Haha

Ok, if statisics are not a good measurement of a players performence, tell me a better one?

Let me guess, you forming an opinion on the couch?

I also never said he was playing mistake free. I said he is playing solid, which he is.

Dude.. numbers are a starting point, but NEVER EVER tell the whole story. You can NOT look at a stat sheet and tell me when someone is playing well. Thats like saying Orton is plying better than Elway because of the lame "QB Rating" (which is absolutely the dumbest thing ever). Stats are NEVER the end-all of how person plays, and only the START of the discussion. This isn't baseball.

[BroncoStud]

Haha

Ok, if statisics are not a good measurement of a players performence, tell me a better one?

Let me guess, you forming an opinion on the couch?

I also never said he was playing mistake free. I said he is playing solid, which he is.

Orton is ok until the 4th quarter, or a 3rd down play.

[NorCalBronco7]

Dude.. numbers are a starting point, but NEVER EVER tell the whole story. You can NOT look at a stat sheet and tell me when someone is playing well. Thats like saying Orton is plying better than Elway because of the lame "QB Rating" (which is absolutely the dumbest thing ever). Stats are NEVER the end-all of how person plays, and only the START of the discussion. This isn't baseball.

Your example of 1 stat being used to draw the conclusion that Orton is better than Elway is infact the dumbest thing Ive ever heard. Ive brought much more to the table than that (unlike you and your constant opinion).

My contention is based on Ortons solid TD/Int ratio, high yardage output, good Qb rating and lack of help he has around him. You can do your best to trash Orton all you want, but at the end of the day, he currently a better Qb and will most likely be better than Tebow next year.

And as far as the topic is concerned, Tebow wont be starting this year because hes most likely not going to be ready next year and the Broncos would not take away opportunities for Orton to grow the rest of the season.

[BroncoStud]

Your example of 1 stat being used to draw the conclusion that Orton is better than Elway is infact the dumbest thing Ive ever heard. Ive brought much more to the table than that (unlike you and your constant opinion).

My contention is based on Ortons solid TD/Int ratio, high yardage output, good Qb rating and lack of help he has around him. You can do your best to trash Orton all you want, but at the end of the day, he currently a better Qb and will most likely be better than Tebow next year.

And as far as the topic is concerned, Tebow wont be starting this year because hes most likely not going to be ready next year and the Broncos would not take away opportunities for Orton to grow the rest of the season.

That is speculation. Nobody on this board knows how good or bad Tebow is or will be. Orton is starting because he knows the offense and is playing pretty well.

Denver is in the bottom 1/4 of the NFL in 3rd down conversions and has been horrible in the redzone with Kyle starting. Not to mention, when the Broncos need plays to secure wins or make vital conversion, it isn't happening. Not all his fault but he certainly gets some of the blame. Orton is at his absolute worst when Denver needs him to be at his best.

Orton is fine until he HAS to make a play and then he is exposed for what he is - A GAME MANAGER.

[GEM]

Your example of 1 stat being used to draw the conclusion that Orton is better than Elway is infact the dumbest thing Ive ever heard. Ive brought much more to the table than that (unlike you and your constant opinion).

My contention is based on Ortons solid TD/Int ratio, high yardage output, good Qb rating and lack of help he has around him. You can do your best to trash Orton all you want, but at the end of the day, he currently a better Qb and will most likely be better than Tebow next year.

And as far as the topic is concerned, Tebow wont be starting this year because hes most likely not going to be ready next year and the Broncos would not take away opportunities for Orton to grow the rest of the season.

Your contention is still just the same....an opinion.

You don't have a clue what the Broncos will do...you don't have some insider information straight from McDaniels' desk. Your opinion is that the Broncos won't make a change to Tebow.

[NorCalBronco7]

That is speculation. Nobody on this board knows how good or bad Tebow is or will be. Orton is starting because he knows the offense and is playing pretty well.

Denver is in the bottom 1/4 of the NFL in 3rd down conversions and has been horrible in the redzone with Kyle starting. Not to mention, when the Broncos need plays to secure wins or make vital conversion, it isn't happening. Not all his fault but he certainly gets some of the blame. Orton is at his absolute worst when Denver needs him to be at his best.

Orton is fine until he HAS to make a play and then he is exposed for what he is - A GAME MANAGER.

What we do know, however, is Tebow isnt as good as Orton currently is or else he would be starting.

Expecting Tebow to be better than Orton going into the 2011 season as the starter does not understand the current Broncos situation at all. And the only chance Tebow would have to start this year is if hes projected to start over Orton next year, right? Is this just baseless speculation or common sense?

Again, for the hundreth time because somehow you cant wrap this around your head, the lack of running game is more responsible for the 3rd down % and redzone woes than Orton.

You can call Orton a game manager all you like, but him being #2 in 20+ yard passes and #1 in 40+ yard passes, and 2nd in total yards in the entire NFL makes Orton more than a game-manager. Or do Qbs with that lable do more? Highly doubt it.

[NorCalBronco7]

Your contention is still just the same....an opinion.

You don't have a clue what the Broncos will do...you don't have some insider information straight from McDaniels' desk. Your opinion is that the Broncos won't make a change to Tebow.


I have more of a clue as to how the Broncos are going to handle the Orton/Tebow situation than those of you who think the only way to know is by having a written letter from McDaniels stamped in blood. :lol:

I do have a clue. No rookie has ever started over a solid veteran. Fact. That should make it abundantly clear how organizations handle situations just like the Broncos are experiencing right now.

And if the clue is its never happened before in the history of the NFL, thats makes my clue pretty damn good.

[GEM]

I have more of a clue as to how the Broncos are going to handle the Orton/Tebow situation than those of you who think the only way to know is by having a written letter from McDaniels stamped in blood. :lol:

I do have a clue. No rookie has ever started over a solid veteran. Fact. That should make it abundantly clear how organizations handle situations just like the Broncos are experiencing right now.

And if the clue is its never happened before in the history of the NFL, thats makes my clue pretty damn good.


Solid veterans don't go 4-16 or whatever it is now. Owners make changes because of those kind of numbers. Especially owners who have never experienced those kind of numbers before.

You can save your arrogant attitude. You don't know any more than anyone here....the part that's funny...it's just your OPINION that you are Mr. Smarty Pants....I don't see many agreeing with you. :shrugs:

[NorCalBronco7]

Solid veterans don't go 4-16 or whatever it is now. Owners make changes because of those kind of numbers. Especially owners who have never experienced those kind of numbers before.

You can save your arrogant attitude. You don't know any more than anyone here....the part that's funny...it's just your OPINION that you are Mr. Smarty Pants....I don't see many agreeing with you. :shrugs:

I dont see anyone proving me wrong, too. :eek:

You considering that the Broncos would make the switch right now or anytime soon over Orton is laughable knowing that a scenario like that has never happened before in the history of the NFL. But its still going to happen, right? :lol: Could it be that Tebow is infact the legendary Mile High Messiah, told generations of old? :lol:




It think Ryan Fitzpatrick would disagree also. Although the Bills are 0-7, hes in or near the top 5 in every major passing statistic except total passing yards. Hes playing solid and still losing just like Orton.

Phillip Rivers as well. Top flight Qb and playing well despite on a losing team (3-5). This is only from this year.

Owners don't try and fix what isnt broken on any team.

Solid Qbs have been on teams and played well only to lose. Thats because football is a team sport.

And Orton's 8-15 as the Broncos QB, not 4-16. But, putting the blame on Orton considering the passing game is the only strength of the team, makes no sense at all.

[claymore]

Start tebow! I have no desire to watch Orton get 6000 yards passing and 14 td's.

[Krugan]

Im guessing that Plummer being 7-3 when he got pulled doesnt qualify as having a rookie take over mid season while the starting QB was still winning.

Or maybe im missing the point of the argument.

[Northman]

Start tebow! I have no desire to watch Orton get 6000 yards passing and 14 td's.


Excuse me sir, do you have an article to back up that opinion? Hold on, let me write one up real quick. :lol: