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LRtagger
10-31-2010, 08:05 PM
I know we have had injuries and have two rookies starting, but is there another team in the league who's offensive line is collectively as bad both run blocking and pass blocking? It's embarrassing to not be able to pick up a single blitz.

If opposing teams blitzed every defensive play and threw up hail mairy jump balls every offensive play, we would have a chance of losing every game 77-0.

Softskull
10-31-2010, 08:08 PM
The only team I've seen that's worse than us is Chicago. But their group is MUCH worse than ours.

Northman
10-31-2010, 08:11 PM
Chicago is 10x worse.

Apollo
10-31-2010, 08:13 PM
The offensive line, to me, is one of the most important areas of a team. I would take a good offensive line over a good quarterback or runningback any day of the week. We NEED massive improvements for us to be going anywhere above five wins.

PAINTERDAVE
10-31-2010, 08:16 PM
Hopefully the rookies will come around sooner rather then later.

It is pretty hard wuth a rookie center calling out asignments. He'll learn.

Rebuilding year.

That is why it is important to get ALL the rookies in and get them experience this second half.

broncofaninfla
10-31-2010, 08:40 PM
Two years removed from arguably the bast Oline in football we now have arguably the worst.

LRtagger
10-31-2010, 08:42 PM
Chicago is 10x worse.

I dont know about that. Chicago can generally run the ball OK and I think a lot of their sacks come from their system and their QB. We are easily the worst run blocking line in the league and our pass blocking has consistently gotten worse week to week.

HORSEPOWER 56
10-31-2010, 08:45 PM
Hopefully the rookies will come around sooner rather then later.

It is pretty hard wuth a rookie center calling out asignments. He'll learn.

Rebuilding year.

That is why it is important to get ALL the rookies in and get them experience this second half.

The 49ers start 2 rookies on their O-line. Nick Mangold started for the Jets as a rookie and Pouncey is starting in Pittsburgh.

LOTS of O-linemen start as rookies these days. It's not about the players, it's about coaching. Clady, Kuper, and harris were very solid, bordering spectacular 3 years ago. Now they are struggling and Harris has lost his starting spot completely. I REFUSE to believe that the play of all three of them has fallen off that much based on talent or even injury.

It's coaching. Pure and simple. Jr loves to point out that Dennison had never coached O-line before and that was why our old system stunk in the redzone. Our current O-line coach HAS NEVER COACHED O-LINE (was a TE's coach previously) and our O-line is the WORST I'VE EVER SEEN IT... but right now, it's just growing pains and rookie mistakes... whatever. :rolleyes:

Medford Bronco
10-31-2010, 08:45 PM
The whole team sucks right now.

They are awful when in the lead (see vs the Jets and today)
Cant finish

Bad season.

I would say one more loss and then get Tebow some reps. It cant get any worse right

this is sad. I feel like a Browns fan :(

Northman
10-31-2010, 08:48 PM
I dont know about that. Chicago can generally run the ball OK and I think a lot of their sacks come from their system and their QB. We are easily the worst run blocking line in the league and our pass blocking has consistently gotten worse week to week.

Emm, no. They actually have a RB who can run through the lanes. If it was just the QB than we wouldnt see the backup QB's getting hammered every play too. Knowshon is currently the only worthwhile back we have but that isnt saying much.

Lancane
10-31-2010, 08:48 PM
Again another issue that falls on McDaniels...we needed a starting center, guard and some depth. But he switched to the Man-on-Man scheme taking both Clady and Harris out of their element, Hamilton was replaced with Hochstein who's not even an improvement at the position, and let's not forget about Kuper, who is another who flourished in the zone blocking scheme as well. And then Beadles replaced Harris who has been one of the better right tackles in the league, seems the majority of starters we had are having a hard time in the new scheme.

If it ain't broke don't fix it...McDaniels is of another school of thought - If I don't get credit for it, break it, trade it, devalue it and then rebuild it worse.

broncofaninfla
10-31-2010, 09:13 PM
I'm wondering how much of it is lack of talent and how much of it is scheme.

BroncoStud
10-31-2010, 09:13 PM
I dont know about that. Chicago can generally run the ball OK and I think a lot of their sacks come from their system and their QB. We are easily the worst run blocking line in the league and our pass blocking has consistently gotten worse week to week.

I disagree, Chicago has one of the worst offensive lines I can remember seeing play.

Italianmobstr7
10-31-2010, 09:20 PM
I disagree, Chicago has one of the worst offensive lines I can remember seeing play.

Buffalo has a bad line too, so does Cleveland, Oakland, Detroit. We don't have the worst but we're definitely middle of the pack at best. Crazy that we used to have one of the best just 2 years ago. Part of it was Jay's mobility and part of it was the scheme. I think McD honestly needs to try and fix the blocking scheme in the offseason. At least last year with a mixture of zone/power we were better than we have been this year.

Northman
10-31-2010, 09:21 PM
I'm wondering how much of it is lack of talent and how much of it is scheme.

Well, the "scheme" is working fine in NE post McD OC era. The Pats have a RB who can run downfield, sweeps, and on the goalline with no problem. The Pats have a TE (receiving one) who is a rookie no less who is a downfield threat.

Medford Bronco
10-31-2010, 09:23 PM
Well, the "scheme" is working fine in NE post McD OC era. The Pats have a RB who can run downfield, sweeps, and on the goalline with no problem. The Pats have a TE (receiving one) who is a rookie no less who is a downfield threat.

The Pats also have one of the best Qbs of all time and one of the best coaches of all time. A great system and play as a team

It was nice to see them beat that jerk Favre today.

Boy I would love Elway back


The play to Brandon tate for the TD was very Elwayesque.

KCL
10-31-2010, 09:44 PM
The offensive line, to me, is one of the most important areas of a team. I would take a good offensive line over a good quarterback or runningback any day of the week.

Agree with this.

Softskull
10-31-2010, 10:07 PM
Again another issue that falls on McDaniels...we needed a starting center, guard and some depth. But he switched to the Man-on-Man scheme taking both Clady and Harris out of their element, Hamilton was replaced with Hochstein who's not even an improvement at the position, and let's not forget about Kuper, who is another who flourished in the zone blocking scheme as well. And then Beadles replaced Harris who has been one of the better right tackles in the league, seems the majority of starters we had are having a hard time in the new scheme.

If it ain't broke don't fix it...McDaniels is of another school of thought - If I don't get credit for it, break it, trade it, devalue it and then rebuild it worse.

Generally, I agree with you. I loved zone blocking, still do. Most new coaches would have changed our line. Maybe not as severly, but Denver has traditionally played small, quick Olinemen. Most coaches want big. Changes were coming.

IMO, playing center is the most cerebral position in the offense besides QB. Starting a rookie at that position had trouble written all over it. At best, this group would be mediocre this year if everything went well. Obviously that hasn't been the case. We need more depth, health and time.

LRtagger
10-31-2010, 10:14 PM
Emm, no. They actually have a RB who can run through the lanes. If it was just the QB than we wouldnt see the backup QB's getting hammered every play too. Knowshon is currently the only worthwhile back we have but that isnt saying much.

As if Matt Forte is some all pro player. Chester Taylor has nearly the same average per.

Cutler has been sacked 28 times in 22 quarters. The backups have been sacked 4 times in 6 quarters. And you would expect the backups to get sacked more since they are typically less prepared. Cutler is a huge reason for the sacks given up.

If not for Moreno, our backs would be averaging something around 2 yards per.

And with a QB who's greatest attribute in this offense is being able to diagnose a defense at the line and be smart with the football, yet he still is flushed from the pocket constantly and gets roughed up by an average defense...I would contend that our offensive line is not 10x better than Chicago's. If they were, we would be better than 2-6 as we would have at least one win on the back of our running game - like Chicago does.

Northman
10-31-2010, 10:21 PM
The Pats also have one of the best Qbs of all time and one of the best coaches of all time.


Exactly my point. Many have tried to sell this garbage on here that McD was the reason for their success. Its obviously not the case.

Northman
10-31-2010, 10:27 PM
As if Matt Forte is some all pro player. Chester Taylor has nearly the same average per.

Chester Taylor had pretty good success in Minny and in Baltimore so he's no scrub.


Cutler has been sacked 28 times in 22 quarters. The backups have been sacked 4 times in 6 quarters. And you would expect the backups to get sacked more since they are typically less prepared.Collins is a veteran and is probably far more prepared than Jay. lol


Cutler is a huge reason for the sacks given up.Um, no. But keep telling yourself that. I guess when Kyle was getting sacked there a lot too it was all his fault right? I understand you dont like Jay but please, spare me the stupid sillyness at this point okay?


If not for Moreno, our backs would be averaging something around 2 yards per.Definitely, the rest of our backfield sucks major ass so its obvious the line isnt the bigger problem here.


And with a QB who's greatest attribute in this offense is being able to diagnose a defense at the line and be smart with the football, yet he still is flushed from the pocket constantly and gets roughed up by an average defense...I would contend that our offensive line is not 10x better than Chicago's. If they were, we would be better than 2-6 as we would have at least one win on the back of our running game - like Chicago does.Our line is ranked 25th, Chicago's is DEAD LAST. Yes, their's is worse. Any questions?

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?archive=false&conference=null&role=TM&offensiveStatisticCategory=OFFENSIVE_LINE&defensiveStatisticCategory=null&season=2010&seasonType=REG&tabSeq=2&qualified=true&Submit=Go

Bosco
10-31-2010, 10:49 PM
LOTS of O-linemen start as rookies these days. It's not about the players, it's about coaching. Clady, Kuper, and harris were very solid, bordering spectacular 3 years ago. Now they are struggling and Harris has lost his starting spot completely. I REFUSE to believe that the play of all three of them has fallen off that much based on talent or even injury. To my understanding, Harris is benched because he just isn't ready to play yet.


It's coaching. Pure and simple. Jr loves to point out that Dennison had never coached O-line before and that was why our old system stunk in the redzone. Our current O-line coach HAS NEVER COACHED O-LINE (was a TE's coach previously) and our O-line is the WORST I'VE EVER SEEN IT... but right now, it's just growing pains and rookie mistakes... whatever. :rolleyes: You might want to fact check this one buddy. Barone has extensive experience coaching the line. Here is his coaching history.

2010- Offensive Line, Denver Broncos
2009 Tight Ends Denver Broncos (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denver_Broncos)
2007-08 Tight Ends, San Diego Chargers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Diego_Chargers)
2005-06 - Tight Ends, Atlanta Falcons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlanta_Falcons)
2004 - Offensive Line, Atlanta Falcons
2003 - Assistant Head Coach and Offensive Coordinator, Texas State (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_State_Bobcats)
2000-02 - Offensive Line and Offensive Coordinator, Houston (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Houston_Cougars_football)
1997-99 - Offensive Line and Offensive Coordinator, Wyoming (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wyoming_Cowboys)
1994-96 - Offensive Line, Eastern Illinois (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Illinois_Panthers)
1993 - Assistant Offensive Line, Texas A&M (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_A%26M_Aggies_football)
1991-92 - Offensive Line, Sacramento State (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacramento_State)
1987-90 - Offensive Line, American River (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_River_College)

Also, Bob Wylie, the assistant OL coach, has plenty of experience. That said, I do think there are valid questions about how good of a job they are doing.

BroncoWave
10-31-2010, 10:49 PM
North I've heard MULTIPLE analysts say that one of the reasons for Cutler's sacks is that he holds onto the ball for way too long. But I guess they have no idea what they are talking about either.

BroncoStud
10-31-2010, 10:50 PM
Zone-blocking was great until it got to be 3rd and 2, and defenses would stack the line and stuff the smaller guards and tackles. During the Super Bowl days defenses just weren't built for the Shanahan system with Elway running it. It took Elway retiring, TD getting injured, and the NFL getting saavy to begin defending it.

It seems defensive lines have gone to the 3-4 with hybrid OLBers and fast ILBers to stuff the run and cover the short pass. I remember that physical defenses ALWAYS seemed to dominate us at the point of attack starting around 2000.

Bosco
10-31-2010, 10:51 PM
North I've heard MULTIPLE analysts say that one of the reasons for Cutler's sacks is that he holds onto the ball for way too long. But I guess they have no idea what they are talking about either.

They're right. He holds onto the ball too long and practically refuses to check down because he's always looking for the big play.

BroncoStud
10-31-2010, 10:52 PM
North I've heard MULTIPLE analysts say that one of the reasons for Cutler's sacks is that he holds onto the ball for way too long. But I guess they have no idea what they are talking about either.

I don't see him holding it all that long. The Bears line is really bad, really bad, and Jay doesn't have good weapons to throw the ball to, his best weapon (Greg Olsen) being under-utilized by Mike Martz. I actually felt sorry for Jay watching the Giants game, it looked like he was punch-drunk around the 5th sack or so.

BroncoWave
10-31-2010, 10:58 PM
Just reporting what I hear. I don't really care much at all about the Bears so I haven't seen them play that much this year.

But if anyone remembers the Packers were horrendous in pass protection last season but that didn't stop Aaron Rodgers from having a good season and leading the Packers to the playoffs.

Poet
10-31-2010, 11:02 PM
Cincinnati has a worse offensive line as well.

It is shocking that you guys had the best offensive line two years ago and have this line to show for it.

I think most of it is not on McDaniels, FWIW.

sneakers
10-31-2010, 11:22 PM
How far we have fallen in the last 10 years in OLine quality.

Ravage!!!
10-31-2010, 11:22 PM
Just reporting what I hear. I don't really care much at all about the Bears so I haven't seen them play that much this year.

But if anyone remembers the Packers were horrendous in pass protection last season but that didn't stop Aaron Rodgers from having a good season and leading the Packers to the playoffs.

You obviously haven't seen.

Yes, its a combination of things. Sometimes Cutler has held onto the ball too long, sure. But so has Orton. Brees leads the LEAGUE in INTs. I guess he just doesn't know how to read a defense?

Some just want to make judgments based purely on the dislike of a guy. The Chicago's offensive line,is TRULY.. the worst OL I have EVER seen....EVER. I've never ever EVER seen an OL as bad as theirs is. Considering the fact that Jay threw INTs last year because he was trying to rush a pass INSTEAD of taking the sack...I find it HILARIOUS that you guys now want to say its his fault for taking the sack... when you ahven't even watched them play.

They are horrendous. Our OL is bad, but not NEARLY as bad as Chicago's.. and Martz is the WORST system that can be run when you have a bad OL. His system has always led the league in sacks as it is, and thats when the OL is GOOD. Deep routes and 7 step drops.. mixed with a bad OL.. equals disaster.

Ravage!!!
10-31-2010, 11:23 PM
How far we have fallen in the last 10 years in OLine quality.

Just 2 years ago it was considered the best in the NFL. So the best questionwould be.. how far have we fallen in just 2 years?

Northman
10-31-2010, 11:40 PM
North I've heard MULTIPLE analysts say that one of the reasons for Cutler's sacks is that he holds onto the ball for way too long. But I guess they have no idea what they are talking about either.

I never said it wasnt some of the contributing factor but ive also heard a lot of anaylist say that Oline is absolutely atrocious but i guess they dont know what they are talking about either. The rankings speak for themselves man but if Jay is holding onto the ball too long than evidently Orton is too so where does that really leave us? A Draw? :lol:

Northman
10-31-2010, 11:42 PM
You obviously haven't seen.

Yes, its a combination of things. Sometimes Cutler has held onto the ball too long, sure. But so has Orton. Brees leads the LEAGUE in INTs. I guess he just doesn't know how to read a defense?

Some just want to make judgments based purely on the dislike of a guy. The Chicago's offensive line,is TRULY.. the worst OL I have EVER seen....EVER. I've never ever EVER seen an OL as bad as theirs is. Considering the fact that Jay threw INTs last year because he was trying to rush a pass INSTEAD of taking the sack...I find it HILARIOUS that you guys now want to say its his fault for taking the sack... when you ahven't even watched them play.

They are horrendous. Our OL is bad, but not NEARLY as bad as Chicago's.. and Martz is the WORST system that can be run when you have a bad OL. His system has always led the league in sacks as it is, and thats when the OL is GOOD. Deep routes and 7 step drops.. mixed with a bad OL.. equals disaster.

Yea, ive seen plenty of Bears games this year and although Jay has some to do with it their Oline is terrible. Its ranked dead last for a reason. They are bad.

Watchthemiddle
10-31-2010, 11:44 PM
Just 2 years ago it was considered the best in the NFL. So the best questionwould be.. how far have we fallen in just 2 years?

Nalen and Hamilton are gone.

Harris can't stay healthy and get on the field and Clady is not 100%.

That is how far we have fallen in two years.

Poet
10-31-2010, 11:46 PM
Cutler is a guy who will make some risky decisions in any system. You put him in a system that loves to have deep plays develop (this is overstated by a lot of people, Martz probably calls half as many 7 step drops as people accuse him of) with that offensive line and bad things will happen.

Ravage!!!
10-31-2010, 11:49 PM
Nalen and Hamilton are gone.

Harris can't stay healthy and get on the field and Clady is not 100%.

That is how far we have fallen in two years.

From best, to 25th in 2 years... THATS how fast. I'm sure some will come up with all kinds of excuses. How far have we fallen? To the point that people are just ACHING to come up with excuses as to why we are SOOOO bad. Thats how far we have fallen in 2 years.

Poet
10-31-2010, 11:52 PM
From best, to 25th in 2 years... THATS how fast. I'm sure some will come up with all kinds of excuses. How far have we fallen? To the point that people are just ACHING to come up with excuses as to why we are SOOOO bad. Thats how far we have fallen in 2 years.

This is not objective at all. You have a myriad of reasons to not be happy with McDaniels, but blaming him for the line is absurd.

Break out the starting line roster two years ago.

Then compare it to what you have on the roster now. Then compare the health of the two.

Watchthemiddle
10-31-2010, 11:53 PM
You obviously haven't seen.

Yes, its a combination of things. Sometimes Cutler has held onto the ball too long, sure. But so has Orton. Brees leads the LEAGUE in INTs. I guess he just doesn't know how to read a defense?

Some just want to make judgments based purely on the dislike of a guy. The Chicago's offensive line,is TRULY.. the worst OL I have EVER seen....EVER. I've never ever EVER seen an OL as bad as theirs is. Considering the fact that Jay threw INTs last year because he was trying to rush a pass INSTEAD of taking the sack...I find it HILARIOUS that you guys now want to say its his fault for taking the sack... when you ahven't even watched them play.

They are horrendous. Our OL is bad, but not NEARLY as bad as Chicago's.. and Martz is the WORST system that can be run when you have a bad OL. His system has always led the league in sacks as it is, and thats when the OL is GOOD. Deep routes and 7 step drops.. mixed with a bad OL.. equals disaster.



:laugh::laugh:

That statement from YOU made me laugh.

****I am listening to a local radio station here in denver www.1043thefan.com (you should tune in) and they must have some national guy on right now. The minute I turn it on Jay is getting BLASTED!!! The guy sounds like he has a Chicago accent and he is ranting on and on about Jay and how he is overated, bad mechanics, media driven hype, living like Bill Cartwright of the Bulls used to live...high on the hog off of other peoples success (Jordan's). He was interviewed this week by a local female in Chicago and she asked "why is it you guys can't score in the redzone....what is wrong with the offense?"..his response "well, you tell me". WOW...great classy guy who still can't play the QB position but sure does have a nice contract. ***

Carry on...the Bears and Broncos have a bad O-line.

Watchthemiddle
10-31-2010, 11:55 PM
This is not objective at all. You have a myriad of reasons to not be happy with McDaniels, but blaming him for the line is absurd.

Break out the starting line roster two years ago.

Then compare it to what you have on the roster now. Then compare the health of the two.

Booyah!!!!

Lonestar
11-01-2010, 12:11 AM
Two years removed from arguably the bast Oline in football we now have arguably the worst.

you do realize that every starter played every game that year next to teh same guy.

that Jay was mobile enough to keep the sacks down.


that the ZBS has run its course and NO ZBS team has won the SB since we did 11 years ago.

That the ZBS sucks hind teat inside the red zone or at least it has for us since TD, CP and MA left the team.

Did you expect those same players to be here forever? Hamilton can't pass block one on one to save his ass never did never will . He was always being pushed back into the pocket since we started pocket passing in 06.
so he is playing elsewhere so is Casey but they could not hack it here last year y'all saw that yourselves.

Still does not excuse Cladys play this year other than he is not 1005 after a stupid move on his part playing basketball in the off season, as for Kuper he is not back to his level of play either after his ankle surgery, Harris Well IMO he should have been replace this year as well after all he has started in less than half of the games he could have as a Bronco http://www.nfl.com/players/ryanharris/profile?id=HAR534109. I think Josh was not crazy about having 3 rookies on the oline to start the season.

So want to debate some more about how great that oline really was?

Ravage!!!
11-01-2010, 12:13 AM
This is not objective at all. You have a myriad of reasons to not be happy with McDaniels, but blaming him for the line is absurd.

Break out the starting line roster two years ago.

Then compare it to what you have on the roster now. Then compare the health of the two.

Injuries happen all over the NFL. Just in '08, we not only had rookie OL, we had 7RBs go on IR. I guess that Shanahan had the "depth" to supply at RB and didn't do what it took?

This is something the COACH created. Make all the excuses you want to, but it all comes down onto the coaches shoulders. This isn't something that is all of a sudden "new." Our OL was bad LAST year as well. Guess what, that wasn't because of changes to the roster.

If you want to fall into the excuses for the coach, fine. But don't think for a moment that everyone is buying into them.

Lonestar
11-01-2010, 12:19 AM
Nalen and Hamilton are gone.

Harris can't stay healthy and get on the field and Clady is not 100%.

That is how far we have fallen in two years.

you forgot, Kuper IIRC had ankle surgery in the off season.

BroncoWave
11-01-2010, 12:22 AM
Injuries happen all over the NFL. Just in '08, we not only had rookie OL, we had 7RBs go on IR. I guess that Shanahan had the "depth" to supply at RB and didn't do what it took?

This is something the COACH created. Make all the excuses you want to, but it all comes down onto the coaches shoulders. This isn't something that is all of a sudden "new." Our OL was bad LAST year as well. Guess what, that wasn't because of changes to the roster.

If you want to fall into the excuses for the coach, fine. But don't think for a moment that everyone is buying into them.

So it's McDaniels' fault that Clady, Harris, and Kuper all sustained serious injuries. Gotcha!

While I agree that there are alot of things wrong with this team that you can blame McD for, this is not one of them IMO.

Ravage!!!
11-01-2010, 12:28 AM
So it's McDaniels' fault that Clady, Harris, and Kuper all sustained serious injuries. Gotcha!

While I agree that there are alot of things wrong with this team that you can blame McD for, this is not one of them IMO.

I'm blaming the coaching staff for the state of the team... period. Quit putting words in my mouth purely to start an argument. GOTCHA :lol:

The point is, this OL wasn't good last year even when players were healthy. The team is bad.. BAD.. period. If you guys want to continue to make excuses for him, fine. Good luck with that. :coffee:

PAINTERDAVE
11-01-2010, 12:33 AM
Cant blame this on the o-line...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ig1NJGf4iGk

Lonestar
11-01-2010, 12:38 AM
Cant blame this on the o-line...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ig1NJGf4iGk

Dave I have always considered you a logical guy but there were three dl guys within a heart beat of him and he had no where to go but down.

Unless you saw something I did not. if you did please explain it to me.

Just because someone tags it as a self sack, doth not make it so.

Poet
11-01-2010, 12:52 AM
Injuries happen all over the NFL. Just in '08, we not only had rookie OL, we had 7RBs go on IR. I guess that Shanahan had the "depth" to supply at RB and didn't do what it took?

This is something the COACH created. Make all the excuses you want to, but it all comes down onto the coaches shoulders. This isn't something that is all of a sudden "new." Our OL was bad LAST year as well. Guess what, that wasn't because of changes to the roster.

If you want to fall into the excuses for the coach, fine. But don't think for a moment that everyone is buying into them.

Injuries happen, but in certain situations you can only do so much.

The 2008 comparison is not valid. Your running game was a system of blocking. You didn't have a single good RB on that team, yet you continued to produce because of the blocking scheme. You required your RB to have one single positive characteristic. Whether it was speed or power, they had to be able to do one thing well. That's not hard to find or do.

I'm not making excuses and you know better.

Your offensive line was not bad last year. I followed and watched enough Bronco football to know that wasn't true. Were they bad in comparison to the previous unit? Sure. Then again, that unit was one of the best offensive lines I've seen this decade.

Does McDaniels deserve some of the blame? Oh yeah, he sure does. He changed the scheme.

But, once again, you show me the roster and who played. I know that you had a few guys who just flat out played bad for a variety of reasons. The scheme change was one, but I think it was your right guard who just flat out failed and couldn't do a damn thing right.

And FWIW, you can cut out the bullshit like "don't expect everyone to buy into the excuses." I hate to break this to you, but you're not enlightened. You're not a football genius, you don't have a view point that is unique, better, smarter or savvier than anyone else. Feel free to stop acting like anyone who takes up for McD in the slightest is a drooling retard, and that people with your viewpoint are politely walking them through the motions.

I hate posters that will go in depth on a rant on their view points and nitpick every last thing to make sure everyone knows that they 'won, especially when they refuse to do the same thing when they're looking at the other side of the argument.

We get it, you hate McDaniels. You feel he robbed you of so much. That's fine. But anyone with the slightest amount of objectivity can look at your OL situation and realize that most of it is NOT on McDaniels.

If Shanahan was still your coach the injuries and drop offs due to age still would have happened. And we all know that it would still be the same story.

A coach is responsible for the end result, but not everything good or bad is his fault. You have to break down what's happening or happened and actually look at it.

Take a page from Northman, he doesn't seem to much care for McDaniels or the roster but he'll be objective. More importantly, he'll admit his bias from the get-go.

Ravage!!!
11-01-2010, 01:42 AM
And FWIW, you can cut out the bullshit like "don't expect everyone to buy into the excuses." I hate to break this to you, but you're not enlightened. You're not a football genius, you don't have a view point that is unique, better, smarter or savvier than anyone else. Feel free to stop acting like anyone who takes up for McD in the slightest is a drooling retard, and that people with your viewpoint are politely walking them through the motions.
BS, KING. This is a crap.

the statement of "not everyone is buying into the excuses" means JUST that. You wnat to make excuses... fine. Make them, believe them to be fact. But don't you DARE be the hypocrite and chastise ME for not buying into the junk that you are laying out as FACT, and then turn around and say that I'M not the one that is "enlightened" or some football genius. You want to call them "reasons".. I'm going to call them excuses. You want to believe that you have some superior viewpoint and those that don't buy into the "excuses" are only doing it for the hate. GOT IT. Thanks for your perfectly unbiased input :salute:

topscribe
11-01-2010, 02:05 AM
Injuries happen all over the NFL. Just in '08, we not only had rookie OL, we had 7RBs go on IR. I guess that Shanahan had the "depth" to supply at RB and didn't do what it took?

This is something the COACH created. Make all the excuses you want to, but it all comes down onto the coaches shoulders. This isn't something that is all of a sudden "new." Our OL was bad LAST year as well. Guess what, that wasn't because of changes to the roster.

If you want to fall into the excuses for the coach, fine. But don't think for a moment that everyone is buying into them.

Injuries elsewhere in the league are not relevant to the problems in Denver. And
trying to analyze reasons for a given failure is not an exercise in excuses. There is
a cause for every effect. It is totally rational to explore the causes.

In this case, injuries play a huge part in the problems in the O-line. Although
I'm sure he would refuse to use any "excuses," I don't believe Clady is yet
totally healthy. I believe Harris has been benched because he hasn't fully
recovered. Kuper was injured for a while.

They also have two rookies on the line to work with a subpar left OG in
Hochstein (and, boy, is he subpar!).

That has been a patchwork O-line. That is not an excuse: That is fact.

-----

Lancane
11-01-2010, 02:06 AM
Injuries happen, but in certain situations you can only do so much.

The 2008 comparison is not valid. Your running game was a system of blocking. You didn't have a single good RB on that team, yet you continued to produce because of the blocking scheme. You required your RB to have one single positive characteristic. Whether it was speed or power, they had to be able to do one thing well. That's not hard to find or do.

I'm not making excuses and you know better.

Your offensive line was not bad last year. I followed and watched enough Bronco football to know that wasn't true. Were they bad in comparison to the previous unit? Sure. Then again, that unit was one of the best offensive lines I've seen this decade.

Does McDaniels deserve some of the blame? Oh yeah, he sure does. He changed the scheme.

But, once again, you show me the roster and who played. I know that you had a few guys who just flat out played bad for a variety of reasons. The scheme change was one, but I think it was your right guard who just flat out failed and couldn't do a damn thing right.

And FWIW, you can cut out the bullshit like "don't expect everyone to buy into the excuses." I hate to break this to you, but you're not enlightened. You're not a football genius, you don't have a view point that is unique, better, smarter or savvier than anyone else. Feel free to stop acting like anyone who takes up for McD in the slightest is a drooling retard, and that people with your viewpoint are politely walking them through the motions.

I hate posters that will go in depth on a rant on their view points and nitpick every last thing to make sure everyone knows that they 'won, especially when they refuse to do the same thing when they're looking at the other side of the argument.

We get it, you hate McDaniels. You feel he robbed you of so much. That's fine. But anyone with the slightest amount of objectivity can look at your OL situation and realize that most of it is NOT on McDaniels.

If Shanahan was still your coach the injuries and drop offs due to age still would have happened. And we all know that it would still be the same story.

A coach is responsible for the end result, but not everything good or bad is his fault. You have to break down what's happening or happened and actually look at it.

Take a page from Northman, he doesn't seem to much care for McDaniels or the roster but he'll be objective. More importantly, he'll admit his bias from the get-go.

King, the question is this...did McDaniels find success with the zone blocking scheme in play? At least he was .500 with it, Clady was voted to the Pro Bowl, Orton had a career season, Moreno was the Rookie Running Back of the Year and nearly rushed for a thousand yards, the team tallied 1,836 total yards on the ground. Orton his having a career year again, but no thanks to the line...he's having to carry the team because the blocking scheme was changed and Moreno can not get shit behind it, Clady is not likely to go back to the Pro Bowl this year because of it as well. It was not the line coach who changed it, it was McDaniels who did, period and end of story. So yes, he is to blame...

Canmore
11-01-2010, 02:14 AM
King, the question is this...did McDaniels find success with the zone blocking scheme in play? At least he was .500 with it, Clady was voted to the Pro Bowl, Orton had a career season, Moreno was the Rookie Running Back of the Year and nearly rushed for a thousand yards, the team tallied 1,836 total yards on the ground. Orton his having a career year again, but no thanks to the line...he's having to carry the team because the blocking scheme was changed and Moreno can not get shit behind it, Clady is not likely to go back to the Pro Bowl this year because of it as well. It was not the line coach who changed it, it was McDaniels who did, period and end of story. So yes, he is to blame...

The fault lies squarely on McDaniels shoulders. He is the one who instituted the line change and he is the one responsiblle for the atrocious outcome.

Ravage!!!
11-01-2010, 02:18 AM
Injuries elsewhere in the league are not relevant to the problems in Denver. And
trying to analyze reasons for a given failure is not an exercise in excuses. There is
a cause for every effect. It is totally rational to explore the causes.

In this case, injuries play a huge part in the problems in the O-line. Although
I'm sure he would refuse to use any "excuses," I don't believe Clady is yet
totally healthy. I believe Harris has been benched because he hasn't fully
recovered. Kuper was injured for a while.

They also have two rookies on the line to work with a subpar left OG in
Hochstein (and, boy, is he subpar!).

That has been a patchwork O-line. That is not an excuse: That is fact.

-----

Top.. I know you know the difference between what is being said and what is "fact." The observation that its a "patch work" OL, and that there has been changes is a fact.

That STILL does not mean that its not an excuse. YOu know that. I know that. You (and anyone else) are more than welcome to use that as the backbone for your reasons of the lack of reasonable productivity... or lack of ANY productivity, if you wish. But as you well know, that does NOT make it any less of a fact when one chooses to hear it as purely excuses.

THAT is a fact.

topscribe
11-01-2010, 02:22 AM
Top.. I know you know the difference between what is being said and what is "fact." The observation that its a "patch work" OL, and that there has been changes is a fact.

That STILL does not mean that its not an excuse. YOu know that. I know that. You (and anyone else) are more than welcome to use that as the backbone for your reasons of the lack of reasonable productivity... or lack of ANY productivity, if you wish. But as you well know, that does NOT make it any less of a fact when one chooses to hear it as purely excuses.

THAT is a fact.

I do not count them as the reasons for their lack of production. I do count them
among the reasons for it. You also should know that I'm not so quick to settle on
one factor without exploring alllllll the reasons I can find. If you have been
following my posts at all, you should know that I also have been very critical of
the apparent blocking scheme they have implemented, too.

But regarding "excuses," I only made a little point that is not overly important
in the long run. I'm not interested in a semantic debate, and I'm sure you're
not, either . . .


With that, I'll say goodnight. Got to sleep sometime. :sleeping:

-----

Canmore
11-01-2010, 02:26 AM
I do not count them as the reasons for their lack of production. I do count them
among the reasons for it. You also should know that I'm not so quick to settle on
one factor without exploring alllllll the reasons I can find. If you have been
following my posts at all, you should know that I also have been very critical of
the apparent blocking scheme they have implemented, too.

But regarding "excuses," I only made a little point that is not overly important
in the long run. I'm not interested in a semantic debate, and I hope you're not,
either . . .

-----

The PBS has shown itself to be a complete failure at this point in the season.

Ravage!!!
11-01-2010, 02:34 AM
I do not count them as the reasons for their lack of production. I do count them
among the reasons for it. You also should know that I'm not so quick to settle on
one factor without exploring alllllll the reasons I can find. If you have been
following my posts at all, you should know that I also have been very critical of
the apparent blocking scheme they have implemented, too.

-----

absolutely. I'm just replying to your post.

You (and King) don't want to accept that I'm referring to all the "reasons" as excuses. I'm just defending the fact that, just because the two of you (and anyone else as I'm only using you two as examples) want to label them as 'reasons' doesn't mean that anyone else NOT simply accepting them as anything less than 'excuses' does NOT make me wrong... DESPITE King's ridiculous proclamation.


Lets say you are late for work. Now, you got up on time, you got dressed, but the dogs came running inside and jumped up on you placing their dirty paws on your shirt. So you had to take the time to change clothes. Then, when you go outside, you realize that you locked the keys in your car, and your cell phone is locked inside as well because it was the only charger you had. Once you find your spare keys and get back into the car, you find that the battery had died, and as a result, your phone didn't charge up so your cell is completely dead.

Now, you have all these REASONS as to why you were late for work. All legit, all real. All had a cause and effect. Does your boss view them as reasons, or as excuses, for missing the morning conference with the big clients?

LRtagger
11-01-2010, 08:19 AM
Chester Taylor had pretty good success in Minny and in Baltimore so he's no scrub.

Collins is a veteran and is probably far more prepared than Jay. lol

Um, no. But keep telling yourself that. I guess when Kyle was getting sacked there a lot too it was all his fault right? I understand you dont like Jay but please, spare me the stupid sillyness at this point okay?

Definitely, the rest of our backfield sucks major ass so its obvious the line isnt the bigger problem here.

Our line is ranked 25th, Chicago's is DEAD LAST. Yes, their's is worse. Any questions?

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?archive=false&conference=null&role=TM&offensiveStatisticCategory=OFFENSIVE_LINE&defensiveStatisticCategory=null&season=2010&seasonType=REG&tabSeq=2&qualified=true&Submit=Go

Right so because I think Chicago's offensive line isnt "10x worse" than ours, it is stupid sillyness? This coming from the guy who has been the posterboy for wanting an honest discussion and wanting all sides to present their case. Plenty of people have said some of the sacks are Cutler's fault and it is commonly known that Martz's system results in more sacks than the typical system. Yet it is stupid sillyness if it comes from me?

I could give two shits about Cutler honestly. I didn't start this thread to talk about Cutler and I wasn't the person who brought up the Bears. I was defending my point that their offensive line woes have a lot to do with their scheme and QB...a sentiment others in this thread have agreed with.

Both of their RBs average around 4 ypc. I never said Chester Taylor was a scrub, but neither Forte nor Taylor are top-tier runners. Both are good pass catchers. They would both be lucky to average anywhere close to 4ypc behind our line.

I forgot that career backup veterans are more prepared than young QBs who have been starting in the league for almost 5 years. Its hilarious that you would think any backup would be more prepared than the starter just because he is older. Todd Collins has played in 10 fewer games than Cutler in their careers and has thrown almost 1/3 of the passes Jay has in the league...yet Collins is a wiley veteran who is "probably far more prepared than Jay". If Collins is more prepared than Jay, what does that say about Jay? LOL

The link you posted is sorted by SACKS ONLY. If you READ the OP, it says "collectively" - meaning run blocking AND pass blocking. Chicago's line is hardly 10x worse than ours. They can actually run block consistently on occassion.

Dzone
11-01-2010, 08:57 AM
how do we grade an OL? Sacks? Hurries? Yards per running attempt?

Where do we rank on sacks this year?

Tned-Mobile
11-01-2010, 09:49 AM
I won't be able to watch the game on the DVR until I get home from London on Thursday, but watching from the stands it looked like the rusher on the right side was routinely getting the best of Clady. He got away with what I thought were several blatant holds, and just doesn't seem as dominant as he was his first two years. I hope it's still a matter of recovering from the injury.

It's hard to imagine it's a scheme thing, as he's being beat one-on-one, when in the past he almost always won the one-on-one battles.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

broncofaninfla
11-01-2010, 10:11 AM
Part of the reason the pass protection is starting to crumble as well this season is the fact teams can aggresivly play the pass with no fear of Denver's rushing attack. But with that being said, I feel Denver certainly has one of the worst lines in football just two years after fielding one of the best.

Northman
11-01-2010, 10:42 AM
Right so because I think Chicago's offensive line isnt "10x worse" than ours, it is stupid sillyness? This coming from the guy who has been the posterboy for wanting an honest discussion and wanting all sides to present their case. Plenty of people have said some of the sacks are Cutler's fault and it is commonly known that Martz's system results in more sacks than the typical system. Yet it is stupid sillyness if it comes from me?

I could give two shits about Cutler honestly. I didn't start this thread to talk about Cutler and I wasn't the person who brought up the Bears. I was defending my point that their offensive line woes have a lot to do with their scheme and QB...a sentiment others in this thread have agreed with.

Both of their RBs average around 4 ypc. I never said Chester Taylor was a scrub, but neither Forte nor Taylor are top-tier runners. Both are good pass catchers. They would both be lucky to average anywhere close to 4ypc behind our line.

I forgot that career backup veterans are more prepared than young QBs who have been starting in the league for almost 5 years. Its hilarious that you would think any backup would be more prepared than the starter just because he is older. Todd Collins has played in 10 fewer games than Cutler in their careers and has thrown almost 1/3 of the passes Jay has in the league...yet Collins is a wiley veteran who is "probably far more prepared than Jay". If Collins is more prepared than Jay, what does that say about Jay? LOL

The link you posted is sorted by SACKS ONLY. If you READ the OP, it says "collectively" - meaning run blocking AND pass blocking. Chicago's line is hardly 10x worse than ours. They can actually run block consistently on occassion.


You asked the question of whether or Oline is worst in the NFL. I said no and pointed to the team that is worse and you tried to give me reasons why they are better which is false. When you pointed to RB's i showed you that theirs are actually better than ours you even back up that statement with the 4 YPC example. What does it say about Jay? It says that he is in YET another new system and is going to struggle. It says that ALL of their QB's get sacked behind that line. Im just answering your question LT so why are you gettting so defensive about it?

BigDaddyBronco
11-01-2010, 10:47 AM
I won't be able to watch the game on the DVR until I get home from London on Thursday, but watching from the stands it looked like the rusher on the right side was routinely getting the best of Clady. He got away with what I thought were several blatant holds, and just doesn't seem as dominant as he was his first two years. I hope it's still a matter of recovering from the injury.

It's hard to imagine it's a scheme thing, as he's being beat one-on-one, when in the past he almost always won the one-on-one battles.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums
Clady has been beat several times this year, he doesn't look like his old self.

BigDaddyBronco
11-01-2010, 10:51 AM
You asked the question of whether or Oline is worst in the NFL. I said no and pointed to the team that is worse and you tried to give me reasons why they are better which is false. When you pointed to RB's i showed you that theirs are actually better than ours you even back up that statement with the 4 YPC example. What does it say about Jay? It says that he is in YET another new system and is going to struggle. It says that ALL of their QB's get sacked behind that line. Im just answering your question LT so why are you gettting so defensive about it?

During the Giants game, the analysts were laying the blame on Jay for several of the 8 sacks he took. Martz'z system is terrible on QB's, you can look at all the sacks they have taken over the years. It's not all Jay, it's not all the line it's a combo. Remember, this is the same JC who took 9 sacks when he played for the Broncos in 08, the scheme helped him there.

slim
11-01-2010, 10:54 AM
Chicago's pass protection looks worse than it is because of Martz. Name one season where Martz didn't get his QB killed.

Their run blocking is better than ours.

Northman
11-01-2010, 10:59 AM
During the Giants game, the analysts were laying the blame on Jay for several of the 8 sacks he took. Martz'z system is terrible on QB's, you can look at all the sacks they have taken over the years. It's not all Jay, it's not all the line it's a combo. Remember, this is the same JC who took 9 sacks when he played for the Broncos in 08, the scheme helped him there.

Again, ive never said Jay isnt part of the problem. But for every analyst who say Jay was mainly the blame in the that game i have have two more who say he wasnt the bigger problem there. And ive seen a lot of the Bears games this year so while i understand Jay is some of the problem overall their line is a lot worse than ours and its proven by where they are ranked. The things that helped Jay here is that our line was BETTER (like it is now despite their problems) and that Jay had mobility whereas Kyle's isnt that great.

Northman
11-01-2010, 11:01 AM
Chicago's pass protection looks worse than it is because of Martz. Name one season where Martz didn't get his QB killed.

Their run blocking is better than ours.

They also have better backs. Our backs run into the back of the line while theirs actually use the lanes. There is some video on here where Orton gets sacked in the Niner game and Bucky totally blows his blocking assignment and doesnt bother to go out in the flat. Forte and Taylor are better than any back we have on the roster.

LRtagger
11-01-2010, 11:03 AM
You asked the question of whether or Oline is worst in the NFL. I said no and pointed to the team that is worse and you tried to give me reasons why they are better which is false. When you pointed to RB's i showed you that theirs are actually better than ours you even back up that statement with the 4 YPC example. What does it say about Jay? It says that he is in YET another new system and is going to struggle. It says that ALL of their QB's get sacked behind that line. Im just answering your question LT so why are you gettting so defensive about it?

I'm getting defensive because you are calling me out as being wrong and called my opinion stupid in the process. Meanwhile several others here are agreeing with my assessment that their Oline production is magnified by their poor QB play and their scheme which is exactly what I said. Are they stupid as well?

RB production starts along the offensive line. Denver fans of all people should know this after watching scrub after scrub tear off 1k behind our great offensive lines.

Anyways this thread isnt about Chicago. It's amazing that so many threads here turn into discussion about them, what Cutler is doing there or what Orton did there in the past. This thread is about how our offensive line has been an underachieving embarassment this season.

IMO it falls on the position coach. He is not getting these guys prepared in the film room and he is not teaching proper technique enabling these guys to make adjustments and correct their mistakes. We have decent enough talent on the line. I definitely dont think we are worst or even close to worst in talent along the line. Obviously we have one of the best LTs in the game and a solid RG. We should be playing better than we are. So who's to blame?

Broncolingus
11-01-2010, 11:07 AM
I was (remain) a proponent for a larger, more physical type of o-line than a smaller, more athletic type of o-line...

...I'm not sure what the hell we have now.

slim
11-01-2010, 11:08 AM
They also have better backs. Our backs run into the back of the line while theirs actually use the lanes. There is some video on here where Orton gets sacked in the Niner game and Bucky totally blows his blocking assignment and doesnt bother to go out in the flat. Forte and Taylor are better than any back we have on the roster.

Forte is not a better back the Moreno, IMO. I agree that our RBs suck, but they are also hit in the backfield a lot. These holes you speak of are few and far between.

IMO the bears have a better run blocking OL and we have a better pass blocking OL (slightly). I think they are fairly comparable overall and easily the two worst OL in the NFL.

Northman
11-01-2010, 11:11 AM
I'm getting defensive because you are calling me out as being wrong and called my opinion stupid in the process. Meanwhile several others here are agreeing with my assessment that their Oline production is magnified by their poor QB play and their scheme which is exactly what I said. Are they stupid as well?

First off, i didnt call you stupid. I said it was silly and still think its silly because there are plenty of QB's who make bad decisions when they get sacked even the best of them. I can also point to those who are agreeing with you and know they have their own biases but it is what it is. I backed up my statements with facts so im confident in where i stand on this.


RB production starts along the offensive line. Denver fans of all people should know this after watching scrub after scrub tear off 1k behind our great offensive lines.

Of course it does, but then again those scrubs never reached full potential like TD or Portis did. Add in the fact that the line got aged and we now have a lot of youth there of course there is going to be some problems there. But, this system isnt the one Shanny built any longer so the expectations that you can plug any back in wont work. So that means you have to have a little of both. A good line and some good backs who can make things happen. A good example is a guy like Chris Johnson. He made a Sanders like play yesterday and although i know guys like him are rare there are plenty of guys like that who can make plays of their own. Ellis-Green in NE makes plays and uses the lanes properly. Our guys dont do that.


Anyways this thread isnt about Chicago. It's amazing that so many threads here turn into discussion about them, what Cutler is doing there or what Orton did there in the past. This thread is about how our offensive line has been an underachieving embarassment this season.

Ok, but you made the assumption that our Oline is the worst in the league. its just not true man. Maybe if you had just said it sucked the discussion would of gone in another direction.


IMO it falls on the position coach. He is not getting these guys prepared in the film room and he is not teaching proper technique enabling these guys to make adjustments and correct their mistakes. We have decent enough talent on the line. I definitely dont think we are worst or even close to worst in talent along the line. Obviously we have one of the best LTs in the game and a solid RG. We should be playing better than we are. So who's to blame?

Everyone is too blame but we all know at the end of the day that McD is ultimately responsible. These are his coaches and its his system that they are trying to execute. The lack of focus or discipline falls squarely on him if he cant get them prepared correctly.

Northman
11-01-2010, 11:12 AM
Forte is not a better back the Moreno, IMO.

We definitely will have to agree to disagree than.

slim
11-01-2010, 11:13 AM
North, I just looked it up.

Forte's career YPC is 3.8.

Knowson's career YPC is 3.7

So you are right, Forte is better. :welcome:

Northman
11-01-2010, 11:17 AM
North, I just looked it up.

Forte's career YPC is 3.8.

Knowson's career YPC is 3.7

So you are right, Forte is better. :welcome:

See, dont argue with me anymore. :lol:

LRtagger
11-01-2010, 11:46 AM
North, I just looked it up.

Forte's career YPC is 3.8.

Knowson's career YPC is 3.7

So you are right, Forte is better. :welcome:

Yea but Forte runs behind a better offensive line. :cool:

LRtagger
11-01-2010, 11:56 AM
First off, i didnt call you stupid. I said it was silly and still think its silly because there are plenty of QB's who make bad decisions when they get sacked even the best of them. I can also point to those who are agreeing with you and know they have their own biases but it is what it is. I backed up my statements with facts so im confident in where i stand on this.

You said to "spare you the stupid sillyness" regarding my opinion. To me, that is calling my opinion stupid.

IMO if Cutler is playing behind our offensive line in this system we have more sacks than what we have with Orton. Cutler locks onto guys more than Orton and holds onto the ball longer than Orton. Orton is a lot quicker to check down to the underneath safety routes than Cutler is. Hell that was everyones biggest problem with Orton last year (that he checks down too much).

I also think if Forte is running behind this line his production is just as piss poor as our other backs...maybe even worse. I dont see how you can think a guy with 2 1/2 years in the league and a career average of 3.8 is that much better than any of our guys.

Hell Maroney had a career 4.2 YPC average until he got to Denver. He is averaging HALF of what he has in his 4 year career. Maroney is not a great back, but he is better than 2.1 YPC.

Nomad
11-01-2010, 11:58 AM
North, I just looked it up.

Forte's career YPC is 3.8.

Knowson's career YPC is 3.7

So you are right, Forte is better. :welcome:

Forte is smarter too.....he went to Tulane!:D

broncofaninfla
11-01-2010, 12:03 PM
you do realize that every starter played every game that year next to teh same guy.

that Jay was mobile enough to keep the sacks down.


that the ZBS has run its course and NO ZBS team has won the SB since we did 11 years ago.

That the ZBS sucks hind teat inside the red zone or at least it has for us since TD, CP and MA left the team.

Did you expect those same players to be here forever? Hamilton can't pass block one on one to save his ass never did never will . He was always being pushed back into the pocket since we started pocket passing in 06.
so he is playing elsewhere so is Casey but they could not hack it here last year y'all saw that yourselves.

Still does not excuse Cladys play this year other than he is not 1005 after a stupid move on his part playing basketball in the off season, as for Kuper he is not back to his level of play either after his ankle surgery, Harris Well IMO he should have been replace this year as well after all he has started in less than half of the games he could have as a Bronco http://www.nfl.com/players/ryanharris/profile?id=HAR534109. I think Josh was not crazy about having 3 rookies on the oline to start the season.

So want to debate some more about how great that oline really was?

True continuity is huge with Olines, the PBS will have a higher rate of injuries though given the physical demand required to play.

True, Jay was more mobile than Orton and could burn a team in more ways than Orton.

The ZBS sucks in the red zone? Has the PBS been any better? Shanny is using bigger bodies now in his ZBS and getting the tough yards we are now failing to get. I'll agree the tough yards didn't come that often with the ZBS but it seems worse now under Mcd's PBS.

I've seen absolutley NO IMPROVEMENT with Walton, Beadles or Hoch over Weigmenn and Hamilton. I've never been a fan of Hamilton BUT we haven't improved with his departure yet.

I give Beadles and Walton a chance because the are young BUT for now, they aren't getting the job done. No excuse for Hoch, he sucks.

In 2008 Denver gave up a total of 11 sacks and had a productive running game despite the injuries to the RB's. I don't buy that the PBS is a better scheme at all. The ZBS far out performed the PBS. The 2010 Oline doesn't come close to the 2008 Oline.

BigDaddyBronco
11-01-2010, 12:05 PM
I'm getting defensive because you are calling me out as being wrong and called my opinion stupid in the process. Meanwhile several others here are agreeing with my assessment that their Oline production is magnified by their poor QB play and their scheme which is exactly what I said. Are they stupid as well?

RB production starts along the offensive line. Denver fans of all people should know this after watching scrub after scrub tear off 1k behind our great offensive lines.

Anyways this thread isnt about Chicago. It's amazing that so many threads here turn into discussion about them, what Cutler is doing there or what Orton did there in the past. This thread is about how our offensive line has been an underachieving embarassment this season.

IMO it falls on the position coach. He is not getting these guys prepared in the film room and he is not teaching proper technique enabling these guys to make adjustments and correct their mistakes. We have decent enough talent on the line. I definitely dont think we are worst or even close to worst in talent along the line. Obviously we have one of the best LTs in the game and a solid RG. We should be playing better than we are. So who's to blame?
I'm not sure if it's coaching, scheme, injuries, or a combination of all of the above. Something is broken bad and the OLine coach should get the axe, even if he isn't to blame, they need to bring in a successful OLine coach that understands the PBS and continue to evaluate the personnel and bring in some better FA's for depth. The fact that we couldn't get one decent T as a free agent and now have our RT be the guy we drafted to be our LG. That isn't good player management.

Lonestar
11-01-2010, 12:10 PM
King, the question is this...did McDaniels find success with the zone blocking scheme in play? At least he was .500 with it, Clady was voted to the Pro Bowl, Orton had a career season, Moreno was the Rookie Running Back of the Year and nearly rushed for a thousand yards, the team tallied 1,836 total yards on the ground. Orton his having a career year again, but no thanks to the line...he's having to carry the team because the blocking scheme was changed and Moreno can not get shit behind it, Clady is not likely to go back to the Pro Bowl this year because of it as well. It was not the line coach who changed it, it was McDaniels who did, period and end of story. So yes, he is to blame...

Lets see last year 08 Clady was all world 09 not so much with the change to a HYbird PBS/ZBS scheme and only because the rest of the oline mostly Hamoltpn and Casey did they continue to use the ZBS at all.

Now Clady is coming off knee surgery and I'm sure I can say and get about 95% of the members here to say not yet at 95% let alone 100%.

I do not think that is Joshes fault do you?

Kuper had off season Ankle surgery and Harris on IR last year also had surgery on his toe .

Can you fault Josh for either of those.

To say the least neither pof them are playing at last year or for that matter 08 levels. and that has ZERO to do with changing the scheme.

as for hamilton and casey any one with 2060 eye sight could plainly see that they could not hack it with a change in scheme and that is where we are going so get used to it.

The ZBS is a scheme that as more teams go to it the less unquie it is and rankly the only reason we had early sucess with it is teams did not know how to play it. Just like when the WCO came out SFO killed people with it till they figured it out.

The ZBS against 3-4 teams with fast LB was destroyed consistently.

further NO ZBS team has won much of anything let a super bowl since our wins.

Mikey was one and done in all of the playoff games he took us to EXcept in 05 then we got our asses kicked AT HOME again by a good 3-4 team.

ZBS is dead or going to be rarely used in DEN so having ZBS ONLY OL is beyond stupid.

Hamilton was getting his ass kick 5 years ago in trying to protect Jake and Jay when they went to pocket passing he simply could not handle a bull rush ad was consistently pushed into the pocket . Flat out not big and strong enough to handle t ..Hockstein was our back up in case he failed last year and it did not take long for him to be figured out.

Was Hockstein the answer NO but he gave Josh someone on the oline that knew his ass from a tea kettle in the scheme.

ZBS is great between the 20's, not so hot when it comes down to short yardage and inside the 5 abysmal. at least it has been in DEN since Zimmerman, TD, Stink, Elway, Jones retired. Had a brief respite with MA, and CP, but both short lived. There was hardly a season that went by that mikes EOS presser did not say Red ZONE scoring was an issue and it would get fixed the next year.

Now other than recognizing that ZBS was on the way out (actually was out 10 years ago except in Broncos fans minds) and making the transition to PBS how is this Joshes fault the injuries and replacing ineffective players. What else did he do to wreck our running game?

Lonestar
11-01-2010, 12:38 PM
True continuity is huge with Olines, the PBS will have a higher rate of injuries though given the physical demand required to play.

True, Jay was more mobile than Orton and could burn a team in more ways than Orton.

The ZBS sucks in the red zone? Has the PBS been any better? Shanny is using bigger bodies now in his ZBS and getting the tough yards we are now failing to get. I'll agree the tough yards didn't come that often with the ZBS but it seems worse now under Mcd's PBS.

I've seen absolutley NO IMPROVEMENT with Walton, Beadles or Hoch over Weigmenn and Hamilton. I've never been a fan of Hamilton BUT we haven't improved with his departure yet.

I give Beadles and Walton a chance because the are young BUT for now, they aren't getting the job done. No excuse for Hoch, he sucks.

In 2008 Denver gave up a total of 11 sacks and had a productive running game despite the injuries to the RB's. I don't buy that the PBS is a better scheme at all. The ZBS far out performed the PBS. The 2010 Oline doesn't come close to the 2008 Oline.

Continuity is everything on the LOS play both side of teh ball but even more so on the OLINE.

If you go and look at all the really great olines the one thing you will see is they have played together for years and when they have replacements it is ONE guy at a time for the most part. and Also they are more than 4-7 round draft choices.

the O8 oline had one superb rookie and everyone else was a seasoned vet further more they for the most part had years experience in playing the scheme and or they did not miss any time IIRC all players started 15+ games together that year none of them missed any time with injuries. Having jay back there di not hurt them either when it came to sacks.

Right now we have a OLT that is not remotely playing at his pre-knee surgery level. revolving door at OLG rookie Center, Kuper who has not been at his pre-surgery level nor has Harris. Beadles has played all over the place wherever he is needed. Not two consecutive games have they played in the same spots yet. Nor did Moreno play in Preseason IIRC ad has missed 3 or so games so far this year.

When it comes to blocking on the OL you have to know what the guy next to you is going to do every time, in every situation, it becomes instinctive you automatically react to it IF you have to think about it at this level you will get beat because you as a fraction of a second late in making your adjustment and not knowing what the guy next to you is going to do makes you stop and think.

I played ORG and every time there was a new guy next to me I did not know it took time to make the adjustments. and I did not play in the NFL at warp speed.

It take time for it to all fit together to trust the guy next to you and KNOW how he is going to handle a given situation.

Is Walton going to make it Right now I'd say he will ad that he is head above the guy behind him and he is learning a lot this year. A few of the holding calls he has got this year of the QB pressures were not his guy that got past him but the OG next to him biffed it or it was a delayed blitz.

Will he learn from all of this? absolutely. will it make him better as the games go on or next year? time will tell.

I think Harris is a goner, I've never been overly impressed with him as a pass protect guy and with tebow in the wings that spot has to improve.

Clady should be back to 100% maybe more next year after a full year of healing, and Kuper should be the same.

beadles not sure where he will fit in but I'd guess he will be our next OLG or one hell of a utility man down the road.

Rome was not built in a day, nor are good/great OLINES.

Just as SFO has invested 3 1sts and 2 2nds the past few years on their OLine I suspect we will also keep using day two picks 2s and 3s for this very critical spot, till we are great and have some depth there. Other than OT tackle protect the QB blind side I believe 2-3 picks are enough to cover those spots.

Patience, Grasshopper.

Lonestar
11-01-2010, 01:21 PM
I'm not sure if it's coaching, scheme, injuries, or a combination of all of the above. Something is broken bad and the OLine coach should get the axe, even if he isn't to blame, they need to bring in a successful OLine coach that understands the PBS and continue to evaluate the personnel and bring in some better FA's for depth. The fact that we couldn't get one decent T as a free agent and now have our RT be the guy we drafted to be our LG. That isn't good player management.

I beleive they thought that harris would man up and be ok after spenidn much of last year being out.

Maybe they did not see enough of him last year to make that eval.

But remember Everyone from Pat on down raved about our Oline so changes to it in toto was not going to happen although he did bring in Hockstein in case or I should say WHEN Hamilton could not hack it. I pretty sure that from studying game film of him both before and after getting here that he knew deep down that Hamilton was the real weak link, I doubt he saw that casey was not up to it and had clearly slipped since 08, or he would have backed him up also.

I also believe that when he interview Dennison and BT he thought they could coach the OLINE and RB's up to PBS standards. I also think that Pat wanted them to stay and was not really ready to buck the owner on this one thing.

Lonestar
11-01-2010, 01:25 PM
I'm not sure if it's coaching, scheme, injuries, or a combination of all of the above. Something is broken bad and the OLine coach should get the axe, even if he isn't to blame, they need to bring in a successful OLine coach that understands the PBS and continue to evaluate the personnel and bring in some better FA's for depth. The fact that we couldn't get one decent T as a free agent and now have our RT be the guy we drafted to be our LG. That isn't good player management.

HArd to coach folks up when the total lack of continuity and injuries have been so bad this year. If we do not see improvement as we get past the bye week and we continue to slide then I could agree that the OL guy has to go.

arapaho2
11-01-2010, 03:51 PM
The 49ers start 2 rookies on their O-line. Nick Mangold started for the Jets as a rookie and Pouncey is starting in Pittsburgh.

LOTS of O-linemen start as rookies these days. It's not about the players, it's about coaching. Clady, Kuper, and harris were very solid, bordering spectacular 3 years ago. Now they are struggling and Harris has lost his starting spot completely. I REFUSE to believe that the play of all three of them has fallen off that much based on talent or even injury.

It's coaching. Pure and simple. Jr loves to point out that Dennison had never coached O-line before and that was why our old system stunk in the redzone. Our current O-line coach HAS NEVER COACHED O-LINE (was a TE's coach previously) and our O-line is the WORST I'VE EVER SEEN IT... but right now, it's just growing pains and rookie mistakes... whatever. :rolleyes:


i endorse this post as the truth

arapaho2
11-01-2010, 03:57 PM
Nalen and Hamilton are gone.

Harris can't stay healthy and get on the field and Clady is not 100%.

That is how far we have fallen in two years.


nalen didnt play in 08..weigman was the starting center and was a probowl alternate

Lonestar
11-01-2010, 04:19 PM
Originally Posted by HORSEPOWER 56
The 49ers start 2 rookies on their O-line. Nick Mangold started for the Jets as a rookie and Pouncey is starting in Pittsburgh.

LOTS of O-linemen start as rookies these days. It's not about the players, it's about coaching. Clady, Kuper, and harris were very solid, bordering spectacular 3 years ago. Now they are struggling and Harris has lost his starting spot completely. I REFUSE to believe that the play of all three of them has fallen off that much based on talent or even injury.

It's coaching. Pure and simple. Jr loves to point out that Dennison had never coached O-line before and that was why our old system stunk in the redzone. Our current O-line coach HAS NEVER COACHED O-LINE (was a TE's coach previously) and our O-line is the WORST I'VE EVER SEEN IT... but right now, it's just growing pains and rookie mistakes... whatever.

I believe that those TWO oline guys that are starting for SFO this year as a bit different than our guys.

2010
11 49ers Anthony Davis OT
17 49ers Mike Iupati OG
third OT taken or 3rd highest OT in the draft.
1st OG in the draft.
******
vs
Zane at # 45 being the 5th OT taken.
JD at #80 being the 2nd OC taken.


Not to mention they already have 2 #2s and one other #1 playing on that OLINE. They made a commitment to upgrading the OLINE over that past 4 years we are just now working on it.
++++++++
as for Ricky never coaching an oline that was not the reason we stunk in the RZ it was because we had not talent/SIZE in the trenches when the other team put in goal line units not to mention the LB and DB can stay at home as they do not have as much turf to defend.

He was taught by the master what he did not learn because he never played the OL was how to teach someone to Power block only finesse block as he was taught by Gibbs.

So if your going to quote me at least do it correctly.

as for our OL coach he was a master that taught both Gates and TG to block and play TE before that he was a OLINE coach at a few different places.. that was posted in another thread just thought hat should be cleared up Also.

Gimpygod
11-01-2010, 06:53 PM
I won't be able to watch the game on the DVR until I get home from London on Thursday, but watching from the stands it looked like the rusher on the right side was routinely getting the best of Clady. He got away with what I thought were several blatant holds, and just doesn't seem as dominant as he was his first two years. I hope it's still a matter of recovering from the injury.

It's hard to imagine it's a scheme thing, as he's being beat one-on-one, when in the past he almost always won the one-on-one battles.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

maybe players don't like playing for McDaniels? just wondering because performance isn't there anymore:Cry:

Italianmobstr7
11-02-2010, 04:18 PM
Exactly my point. Many have tried to sell this garbage on here that McD was the reason for their success. Its obviously not the case.

A lot of success McD is credited with isn't because of his work with Brady. It's because of his work with Cassell Taking a QB who hasn't started since High School and helping him lead an NFL team to an 11-5 record is impressive. Obviously part of it is Belicheck, the talent around him, etc... but part of it is McD too. He was the O-coordinator and a QB coach. That's what a lot of my belief in McD stems from.

Northman
11-02-2010, 04:31 PM
A lot of success McD is credited with isn't because of his work with Brady. It's because of his work with Cassell Taking a QB who hasn't started since High School and helping him lead an NFL team to an 11-5 record is impressive. Obviously part of it is Belicheck, the talent around him, etc... but part of it is McD too. He was the O-coordinator and a QB coach. That's what a lot of my belief in McD stems from.


Yea, but i credit most of it too BB because he had already had that system in place before McD got there. Secondly, Cassell's success to me has more to do with the lack of film on him and opposing defenses didnt know how to gameplan for him personally. I see it a lot like i do the Derek Anderson situation in Cleveland. And now although Cassell isnt doing that bad this year he isnt nearly playing as well as he did in NE in that 11-5 season.

Poet
11-02-2010, 04:36 PM
Yea, but i credit most of it too BB because he had already had that system in place before McD got there. Secondly, Cassell's success to me has more to do with the lack of film on him and opposing defenses didnt know how to gameplan for him personally. I see it a lot like i do the Derek Anderson situation in Cleveland. And now although Cassell isnt doing that bad this year he isnt nearly playing as well as he did in NE in that 11-5 season.

Yeah, obviously McD gets some credit, but at the end of the day Cassell was throwing with a great offensive line to Randy Moss and Wes Welker. Moss was still a top five WR and Welker was the best number two WR in the game by far.

You could not draw up a better situation for Cassell to have been in.

At this point, I'm guessing McDaniels will become an assistant coach somewhere else and then eventually become a successful head coach in the future.

Ravage!!!
11-02-2010, 04:37 PM
Yea, but i credit most of it too BB because he had already had that system in place before McD got there. Secondly, Cassell's success to me has more to do with the lack of film on him and opposing defenses didnt know how to gameplan for him personally. I see it a lot like i do the Derek Anderson situation in Cleveland. And now although Cassell isnt doing that bad this year he isnt nearly playing as well as he did in NE in that 11-5 season.

Not to mention Cassell started for a team that just went 18-0 the season prior. They didn't need Cassel to win many games.

Bosco
11-02-2010, 07:20 PM
Yea, but i credit most of it too BB because he had already had that system in place before McD got there.

Why do you keep posting such discredited nonsense?


After the New England Patriots 2004 season, coach Bill Belicheck and offensive coordinator Josh McDaniels went to Gainesville, Florida to meet with Urban Meyer, scout some of his offensive players and discuss the spread option with him. Over the next few years, they would form a great bond and change the New England Patriots offensive attack from an old, smashmouth, Earhardt-Perkins offense left over from the Charlie Weiss and Bill Parcells era, to a new spread attack. The rest is history!

The 2007 New England Patriots went on to break every offensive NFL record with this new spread attack. They grew tired of stumbling into super bowls and barely winning them by three points. They wanted the offense to be explosive and be able to dictate to the defense. If you watch their offense, they use multiple formations to run the same plays, similar to Meyer's spread. The exception is that the NFL quarterback can't run. At least, not yet.

It will be interesting to see how coach Josh McDaniels implements his offense in Denver. With all the new offensive weapons (great wide receivers, great tight ends, great full back and running back), the best pass-blocking offensive line in all of football, and Kyle Orton at the helm (played in Purdue's spread offense), Josh will have every opportunity to continue the spread offense he began in New England.


http://www.footballtimes.org/Article.asp?ID=217

Northman
11-02-2010, 08:40 PM
Why do you keep posting such discredited nonsense?



http://www.footballtimes.org/Article.asp?ID=217


I said i gave more credit to BB than McD. That article you posted said they worked TOGETHER to create the spread offense. I didnt read it as McD is ONLY responsible for it. Nothing i posted was wrong.

Bosco
11-02-2010, 08:51 PM
I said i gave more credit to BB than McD. That article you posted said they worked TOGETHER to create the spread offense. I didnt read it as McD is ONLY responsible for it. Nothing i posted was wrong.

You said the system was put in place before McDaniels got their. Obviously, that cannot be the case if they created it together. It cannot be both ways.

Northman
11-02-2010, 08:54 PM
You said the system was put in place before McDaniels got their. Obviously, that cannot be the case if they created it together. It cannot be both ways.

Ok, so they created it together. Whoopee doo.

Bosco
11-02-2010, 08:56 PM
Thank you for admitting you were wrong. That takes a big man.

Northman
11-02-2010, 08:59 PM
Thank you for admitting you were wrong. That takes a big man.

I was only wrong about when it was installed. I still give BB the most credit for the success of the scheme. But yes, you got me! Oh noes! :lol:

Poet
11-02-2010, 10:04 PM
BB has been there for several different successful offenses. I don't think Northman is saying McD was not involved at all, or that he wasn't talented or good at his job.

That place just cycles through coordinators (because they get jobs), but he's the constant.

Northman
11-02-2010, 10:06 PM
BB has been there for several different successful offenses. I don't think Northman is saying McD was not involved at all, or that he wasn't talented or good at his job.

That place just cycles through coordinators (because they get jobs), but he's the constant.

I thought i was making it that obvious but Bosco has a mancrush on me. :lol:

Poet
11-02-2010, 10:12 PM
I thought i was making it that obvious but Bosco has a mancrush on me. :lol:

you do have a purty mouth.

KCL
11-02-2010, 10:16 PM
Ok, so they created it together. Whoopee doo.

So McD gets credit for those SB wins...:D

Medford Bronco
11-02-2010, 10:19 PM
BB has been there for several different successful offenses. I don't think Northman is saying McD was not involved at all, or that he wasn't talented or good at his job.

That place just cycles through coordinators (because they get jobs), but he's the constant.

Tom Brady is the constant as well.

a HOF QB can cure a lot of what ills

Northman
11-02-2010, 10:21 PM
So McD gets credit for those SB wins...:D

He gets about 2%, so yes.

HORSEPOWER 56
11-03-2010, 07:57 AM
To my understanding, Harris is benched because he just isn't ready to play yet.

You might want to fact check this one buddy. Barone has extensive experience coaching the line. Here is his coaching history.

2010- Offensive Line, Denver Broncos
2009 Tight Ends Denver Broncos (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denver_Broncos)
2007-08 Tight Ends, San Diego Chargers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Diego_Chargers)
2005-06 - Tight Ends, Atlanta Falcons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlanta_Falcons)
2004 - Offensive Line, Atlanta Falcons
2003 - Assistant Head Coach and Offensive Coordinator, Texas State (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_State_Bobcats)
2000-02 - Offensive Line and Offensive Coordinator, Houston (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Houston_Cougars_football)
1997-99 - Offensive Line and Offensive Coordinator, Wyoming (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wyoming_Cowboys)
1994-96 - Offensive Line, Eastern Illinois (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Illinois_Panthers)
1993 - Assistant Offensive Line, Texas A&M (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_A%26M_Aggies_football)
1991-92 - Offensive Line, Sacramento State (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacramento_State)
1987-90 - Offensive Line, American River (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_River_College)

Also, Bob Wylie, the assistant OL coach, has plenty of experience. That said, I do think there are valid questions about how good of a job they are doing.

I stand corrected. My info came from the talking heads on NFL Network that made it sound like our O-line coach was a TEs coach almost exclusively and had no experience coaching O-line.

I do see that he only had 1 year as an O-line coach at the pro level until he was, how do I say it, demoted to TEs coach? I consider moving from O-line (a very important position coach) to TEs (a lesser important position, IMO) a demotion. I'd be willing to bet that the year he coached the O-line in Atlanta, they were pretty bad or he wouldn't have switched to TEs coach after one season.

The fact still remains, and you nailed it, that there are valid questions concerning the job they are doing.