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View Full Version : 2 wins - 6 losses - bye week on Tap... It's TEBOW TIME



PAINTERDAVE
10-31-2010, 03:11 PM
Time to salvage this failed season.

The argument is no longer academic.
it is no longer an intellectual excercise.
Time to develop the future.

Give Tim practice with the starters...
install a game plan designed for him.
Get him started on his development for the future.

It does not matter if we have an outside chance, mathematicly...

this team is going NOWHERE this year.

Time to relax and kick back...
let the pressure go...
become the spoilers around the league.
Develop our future.


If not now.. when?

PAINTERDAVE
10-31-2010, 03:14 PM
Not slamming Orton ...
or hanging this loss on his fumble and interception.

It simply is time to regroup..
and go in the direction of the future.

Orton is NOT our future.

It's Tebow Time.

Dzone
10-31-2010, 03:16 PM
Agreed. Orton can play, no doubt, but he turned it over twice and that cost us the game...

Northman
10-31-2010, 03:17 PM
We are terrible. We will not beat teams like KC or SD. Season is over and its time to look to the future. Put the kid in and let him get some reps. He's a first round choice and doenst need to have his hand held.

PAINTERDAVE
10-31-2010, 03:18 PM
It is basic and easy.

two weeks to regroup...

start fresh with new goals.

Winning the Superbowl is no longer a viable goal...
and realisticly ... neither is wining the division.

Life hands you lemons... make lemonade.

Dzone
10-31-2010, 03:18 PM
Orton is a one dimensional quarterback. He is a good quarterback but not the kind of guy that doe sit all...We need someone with some cojones who can throw and run over people.

PS-Dallas got killed today by jax in dallas..OMG!!!!

camdisco24
10-31-2010, 03:19 PM
Got to agree with you Dave.
Ive tried so hard to support McDaniels and Orton, but ive just run out of gas with that stance.
Time to move on and get this team moving in another direction.

Dzone
10-31-2010, 03:20 PM
Tebow would probably not take as many hits in the backfield as Orton does..Tebow is just quicker, faster and stronger than Orton

Northman
10-31-2010, 03:21 PM
Grossman is coming in for McNabb for the last 2 minutes. This will be interesting.

PAINTERDAVE
10-31-2010, 03:21 PM
Got to agree with you Dave.
Ive tried so hard to support McDaniels and Orton, but ive just run out of gas with that stance.
Time to move on and get this team moving in another direction.

A fresh start. Gotta leave all this other crap behind.

Time for McD to do what he does best...
develop QB talent.

silkamilkamonico
10-31-2010, 03:29 PM
Tebow would probably not take as many hits in the backfield as Orton does..Tebow is just quicker, faster and stronger than Orton

tebow also isn't going to move our offense through the air like Orton does.

I do think it's time for Tebow. We will probably be a little worse and lose games more, but what's the difference, really.

BORDERLINE
10-31-2010, 03:37 PM
let tebow show his stuff it's time

silkamilkamonico
10-31-2010, 03:39 PM
Grossman is coming in for McNabb for the last 2 minutes. This will be interesting.

What a terrible decision by Shanahan. Rex Ryan also made huge mistakes in their game. Lots of coaching debacles around the NFL today.

Krugan
10-31-2010, 03:40 PM
Well if Tebow can magicaly fix teh Oline then im all for it.

Starting Tebow doesnt make us better. Of course it might not make us anyworse either.

The problem is, the people we have arent what we need to do what this coach wants, and that is on his shoulders.

Mike
10-31-2010, 03:42 PM
Well if Tebow can magicaly fix teh Oline then im all for it.

Starting Tebow doesnt make us better. Of course it might not make us anyworse either.

The problem is, the people we have arent what we need to do what this coach wants, and that is on his shoulders.

No, but a mobile QB can mask the deficiencies of a bad o-line. It is time to try something new.

MasterShake
10-31-2010, 03:43 PM
Well if Tebow can magicaly fix teh Oline then im all for it.

Starting Tebow doesnt make us better. Of course it might not make us anyworse either.

The problem is, the people we have arent what we need to do what this coach wants, and that is on his shoulders.

Both our Oline and Dline are horrible, but at least with Tebow you have some mobility. I think Tebow would have fun in this offense, and there is little pressure to win at this point. Get some good experience before next season sow we know what we have at least.

CHARLIEADAMSFAN
10-31-2010, 03:46 PM
We cannot blame this record on Orton

Krugan
10-31-2010, 03:48 PM
Both our Oline and Dline are horrible, but at least with Tebow you have some mobility. I think Tebow would have fun in this offense, and there is little pressure to win at this point. Get some good experience before next season sow we know what we have at least.

Ill agree with the "so we know" part.

I cant stand the idea of running up the white flag with 8 games left though.

Rusty Shackleford
10-31-2010, 03:49 PM
We cannot blame this record on Orton

of course we can't But this season is in the tubes at 2 & 6, so why not? Tebow wasn't drafted with the 25th pick to be a back up.

MasterShake
10-31-2010, 03:51 PM
We cannot blame this record on Orton

No you can't. Injuries, lack of discipline, and plain old bad luck (we get a beautiful flea flicker TD called back, and they come back with a Hail Mary? REALLY???!!).

I'm a huge Orton fan, but this line is going to get him killed. There were a couple of times when a mobile QB like Tebow would come in handy to extend plays or get first downs with his legs.

Right now its the worst situation for Orton running for his life when he is a pocket passer, and the best situation for Tebow. At this point, people aren't expecting much so Tebow can just go out and fling it, run it, and just have some fun. I'd hate to give up on the season, but we need SOME kind of spark.

BroncoStud
10-31-2010, 03:56 PM
Well if Tebow can magicaly fix teh Oline then im all for it.

Starting Tebow doesnt make us better. Of course it might not make us anyworse either.

The problem is, the people we have arent what we need to do what this coach wants, and that is on his shoulders.

How do you know starting Tebow doesn't make us better? Nobody knows that yet.

Italianmobstr7
10-31-2010, 03:58 PM
I actually agree. To not start Tebow after the bye would be pointless IMO. I still think we can win some games, but why not try to win them with Tebow. He's our future. Get him in there to take his lumps in an already down season.

TXBRONC
10-31-2010, 03:58 PM
We cannot blame this record on Orton

I disagree CAF. He's the starting quarterback, we're 2-6 with him as the starter and games where it's been close at the end he's made critical mistakes two of them. The blame is by NO MEANS all on his shoulders but he is a starter so some of the responsibility is rightly on him.

broncofaninfla
10-31-2010, 04:00 PM
tebow also isn't going to move our offense through the air like Orton does.

I do think it's time for Tebow. We will probably be a little worse and lose games more, but what's the difference, really.

What part of the season is shot do you not understand? It's about the future of this franchise. Time to get tebow the reps to see what we have. This season is shot.

broncohead
10-31-2010, 04:02 PM
I'd rather wait till next season and make it an open competition. No point in pushing him in if he isn't ready. Give him an off season to work with the WRs and get on the same page.

broncofaninfla
10-31-2010, 04:06 PM
Ortons not losing the games for Denver but he isn't winning the either. It's Tebow time

Northman
10-31-2010, 04:07 PM
I actually agree. To not start Tebow after the bye would be pointless IMO. I still think we can win some games, but why not try to win them with Tebow. He's our future. Get him in there to take his lumps in an already down season.

Thank god, somebody who totally gets it.

TXBRONC
10-31-2010, 04:17 PM
I actually agree. To not start Tebow after the bye would be pointless IMO. I still think we can win some games, but why not try to win them with Tebow. He's our future. Get him in there to take his lumps in an already down season.


Thank god, somebody who totally gets it.

While I'm not sure we should start Tebow after the bi-week I wouldn't be a opposed it because the argument that Orton gives us the best chance to win doesn't appear to hold water.

NorCalBronco7
10-31-2010, 04:19 PM
Orton is playing well and gives the Broncos a better chance to win next year. Give him more time to grow in McDaniels system.

Bottom line, unless you honestly believe Tebow will be more successful next year than Orton, Tebow wont start anytime this year.

Everybody wants to talk about Tebow being the future, but if it comes at the expense of the success of the Broncos in 2011, then he shouldnt and most likely wont start anytime soon.

TXBRONC
10-31-2010, 04:24 PM
Orton is playing well and gives the Broncos a better chance to win next year. Give him more time to grow in McDaniels system.

Bottom line, unless you honestly believe Tebow will be more successful next year than Orton, Tebow wont start anytime this year.

Everybody wants to talk about Tebow being the future, but if it comes at the expense of the success of the Broncos in 2011, then he shouldnt and most likely wont start anytime soon.

I honestly don't get your logic here NorCal. He's suppose to give us the chance to win now not later. How much more does he need to "grow" in the system he's already putting up pretty good numbers but he's not winning.

ikillz0mbies
10-31-2010, 04:27 PM
I don't really want Tebow to the immediate starter. But I really do think they should insert him gradually each game, giving him more minutes as each game goes on. If the season is truly over, might as well get experimental and see what you can get out of him either by running or passing.

PAINTERDAVE
10-31-2010, 04:28 PM
It is so not about winning... now.

It is about getting ready to win NEXT SEASON!

Using this valuable, expensive time to get Tebow, Thomas and Decker
all on the same page in REAL Games against REAL oponnents.

This is a unique, golden opportunity.

Get the offense in order. Get it together for next year.
The vets understand this better than any one.

A guy like Champ... he would rather spend the next games teaching rookies...
helping in the rebuilding effort...
in order to come out of the gate smokin' hot next year.

To squander this opportunity, and still be a crappy team next season is unnaceptable.

Short term pain for long term gain.

Vets... who have maybe 2 years left in the tank..
those guys get it better than anyone else.

If you can't win THIS race... then pull over, get the car fixed...
and plan for winning the NEXT race.

How hard is that to understand?

Thaahnk God we drafted Tebow and have him on board right now,
so that we can utylize this opportunity.

Look at Dallas? They have nothing to rebuild upon. No rookie sensation to plug in and develop.
Their season really is WASTED.

We are LUCKY to have this chance.

Life hands you lemons... make the best dang lemonade in the Rocky Mountains!

chazoe60
10-31-2010, 04:34 PM
I find the Orton gives us the best chance to win now argument laughable considering we've been demolished and embarrassed the last two weeks with him at the helm. Orton did his best to make sure we lost last week by giving the Raiders two gifts early and he choked away any shot we had in this game with two gifts late. How is that the best chance to win?

NorCalBronco7
10-31-2010, 04:35 PM
I honestly don't get your logic here NorCal. He's suppose to give us the chance to win now not later. How much more does he need to "grow" in the system he's already putting up pretty good numbers but he's not winning.

The Qb position is not the problem for the Broncos and its not the reason the Broncos have lost so many games. You guys need to stop saying Ortons not winning because its the Broncos who are not winning, not simply Orton.

So then would McDaniels put Tebow in to make the Qb position better? Its already a strength of this team!

If you think Tebow, who is an unproven rookie in a complicated system would produce better than Orton this year and next, your nuts. Orton has a firm grasp of the offense and has grown a lot since last year. We should expect an even better Orton next year.

Tebow shouldnt start yet.

PAINTERDAVE
10-31-2010, 04:40 PM
I don't really want Tebow to the immediate starter. But I really do think they should insert him gradually each game, giving him more minutes as each game goes on. If the season is truly over, might as well get experimental and see what you can get out of him either by running or passing.

Wrong.

Tebow needs to practice with the first string...
and have the game plan designed around his strengths.
He needs to be installed as starter... to anitcipate the game... to know he will be in there.

The way you describe it... accomplishes NOTHING.

This is no longer about winning in this failed season...
it is about making the changes needed to be a better team.

Take off the pressure...
Tebow scrambling a bit...
the defenders having to account for the run for a change...
that will make the run game better right off the bat.

Simply getting him a few more reps a game is a half measure.

We need a calculated, reasoned, PLAN.

A new direction. New goals. A fresh start.

New found confidence and determination.

Doing it by half measures is weak and innefective.

Apollo
10-31-2010, 04:42 PM
We clearly aren't going to make anything of this season, might as well throw the young guy in and see what he can do.

Only argument I can make for not throwing him in, is playing for a team in this state might damage his confidence.

This is no disrespect to Orton, I think he's done a good job, just someone who is potentially the future should be favoured in this situation.

NorCalBronco7
10-31-2010, 04:43 PM
I honestly don't get your logic here NorCal. He's suppose to give us the chance to win now not later. How much more does he need to "grow" in the system he's already putting up pretty good numbers but he's not winning.

The Qb position is not the problem for the Broncos and its not the reason the Broncos have lost so many games. You guys need to stop saying Ortons not winning because its the Broncos who are not winning, not simply Orton.

So then would McDaniels put Tebow in to make the Qb position better? Its already a strength of this team!

If you think Tebow, who is an unproven rookie in a complicated system would produce better than Orton this year and next, your nuts. Orton has a firm grasp of the offense and has grown a lot since last year. We should expect an even better Orton next year.

Tebow shouldnt start yet.

claymore
10-31-2010, 04:43 PM
The Qb position is not the problem for the Broncos and its not the reason the Broncos have lost so many games. You guys need to stop saying Ortons not winning because its the Broncos who are not winning, not simply Orton.

So then would McDaniels put Tebow in to make the Qb position better? Its already a strength of this team!

If you think Tebow, who is an unproven rookie in a complicated system would produce better than Orton this year and next, your nuts. Orton has a firm grasp of the offense and has grown a lot since last year. We should expect an even better Orton next year.

Tebow shouldnt start yet.

IMO its not about production. Its about seeing if Tebow is worth getting excited about.

This year is over. Might as well see what we got.

Mike
10-31-2010, 04:49 PM
IMO its not about production. Its about seeing if Tebow is worth getting excited about.

This year is over. Might as well see what we got.

And if we are going to suck, we might as well suck and give our young QB some experience with no expectations of winning.

BroncoStud
10-31-2010, 04:49 PM
Orton is playing well and gives the Broncos a better chance to win next year. Give him more time to grow in McDaniels system.

Bottom line, unless you honestly believe Tebow will be more successful next year than Orton, Tebow wont start anytime this year.

Everybody wants to talk about Tebow being the future, but if it comes at the expense of the success of the Broncos in 2011, then he shouldnt and most likely wont start anytime soon.

What success? The Broncos with Orton are 4-14 and tanking fast. If you consider a 3 win season success, then great, Orton is your guy. If you want to acknowledge that 2010 is essentially over as far as Denver's postseason aspirations, then you would be right.

So if 2010 is a bust, why in the world would we NOT start Tebow? If he fails, so what, at least we know it and can prepare for that next offseason. If he succeeds, we can also build a team around him.

Either way trotting Orton back onto the field as the starter for the Broncos at this point just seems like a total waste of reps to me.

NorCalBronco7
10-31-2010, 05:19 PM
It is so not about winning... now.

It is about getting ready to win NEXT SEASON!

Using this valuable, expensive time to get Tebow, Thomas and Decker
all on the same page in REAL Games against REAL oponnents.

This is a unique, golden opportunity.

Get the offense in order. Get it together for next year.
The vets understand this better than any one.

A guy like Champ... he would rather spend the next games teaching rookies...
helping in the rebuilding effort...
in order to come out of the gate smokin' hot next year.

To squander this opportunity, and still be a crappy team next season is unnaceptable.

Short term pain for long term gain.

Vets... who have maybe 2 years left in the tank..
those guys get it better than anyone else.

If you can't win THIS race... then pull over, get the car fixed...
and plan for winning the NEXT race.

How hard is that to understand?

Thaahnk God we drafted Tebow and have him on board right now,
so that we can utylize this opportunity.

Look at Dallas? They have nothing to rebuild upon. No rookie sensation to plug in and develop.
Their season really is WASTED.

We are LUCKY to have this chance.

Life hands you lemons... make the best dang lemonade in the Rocky Mountains!

Its hard to imagine Tebow will be ready to play effiently this year or next, much less produce like Orton has. Considering the complexity of McDaniels system, how can Tebow be a better option than Orton next year? Because he will get enough experience this year as a rookie? Highly doubt it. Ortons much, much further along in the system and to make the argument that Tebow could even do the same is far fetched. For all you eternal optimists, your right anythings possible. It is however highly unlikely that Tebow could produce as well as Orton has this year or next. And "lets find out what we got" statements will come at the consequence of the 2011 Broncos.

Next year guys Orton will most likely be the better option still. Tebow wont be ready or even close to the level Orton is currently at, even if Tebow starts after the bye. Other than the "well lets see argument"(which is simple and lacks forsight), whats the valid reasoning?



I find the Orton gives us the best chance to win now argument laughable considering we've been demolished and embarrassed the last two weeks with him at the helm. Orton did his best to make sure we lost last week by giving the Raiders two gifts early and he choked away any shot we had in this game with two gifts late. How is that the best chance to win?

And putting all the blame for the Broncos losses on Orton is shallow. 300+ rushing yards against the Broncos last week was the main culprit, not Orton. Hey Phillip Rivers is 2-5 BENCH HIM. Who cares about his production hes a loser! :confused:




IMO its not about production. Its about seeing if Tebow is worth getting excited about.

This year is over. Might as well see what we got.

But it is about production, this year and next year. And putting Tebow in this year will jepordize the success of the 2011 Broncos. The best Qb should start this year and next. Who shouldnt start in a unproven, project Qb at the expense of the better options experience and growth.

Most you guys are impatient and fail to look past this year. Putting Tebow in now is not as simple as "this years over, put tebow in." Theres more to it than that.

Northman
10-31-2010, 05:21 PM
IMO its not about production. Its about seeing if Tebow is worth getting excited about.

This year is over. Might as well see what we got.

You would think it would be this obvious when its been pointed out 500 times.

BroncoNut
10-31-2010, 05:25 PM
sure, why not. Would it hurt his future? I would think not.

chazoe60
10-31-2010, 05:30 PM
Orton wilts under pressure. Be it mental or physical pressure, Orton can not support it's weight. He has proven this fact time and again. Todays pathetic excuse for a performance with the game on the line should have been enough to sign his death warrant as Broncos QB.

Sadly, there are still Bronco fans that excuse his mediocre play.

Please tell me if there is a single Bronco fan who honestly thinks to himself "thank God we have Orton" during a crucial time of any game.

PAINTERDAVE
10-31-2010, 05:36 PM
Its hard to imagine Tebow will be ready to play effiently this year or next, much less produce like Orton has. Considering the complexity of McDaniels system, how can Tebow be a better option than Orton next year?

Next year guys Orton will most likely be the better option still. Tebow wont be ready or even close to the level Orton is currently at, even if Tebow starts after the bye. Other than the "well lets see argument"(which is simple and lacks forsight), whats the valid reasoning?

And putting all the blame for the Broncos losses on Orton is shallow. 300+ rushing yards against the Broncos last week was the main culprit, not Orton. Hey Phillip Rivers is 2-5 BENCH HIM. Who cares about his production hes a loser! :confused:

But it is about production, this year and next year. And putting Tebow in this year will jepordize the success of the 2011 Broncos. Most you guys are impatient and fail to look past this year. Putting Tebow in now is not as simple as "this years over, put tebow in." Theres more to it than that.

I appreciate your opinion... but that is all it is. An opinion.

Many of us are of the opinion that Tebow has unlimited potential.

You talk of McD's complex sysytem. His system has failed, hasn't it?

It would be smart to create a new game plan, designed around Tebow's abilities... and then find out what he can do...
then McD would be better able to design a good system... that is not too "complex" for the players we have on the team.

Besides... everything I have heard is that Tebow is very intelligent and smart as a whip. He has never been accused of not being able to grasp the mechanics of the game. In point of fact... he is very much a lifelong student of the game and is probably better able to grasp complex strategies than many.

Saying Orotn is better is simply one opinion.
Leaving Tebow on the bench...
that option was for if we were winning big time and making aplayoff run.
That scenarios is gone.

The reality is... the team moved up to draft him...
paid dearly in draft picks...
they see him as the future...
and it is now a perfect opportunity to get him crucial real game development time.

If not... then all those picks they spent on him were wasted.

If not now, in this unique situation... what was the point of drafting him?

NorCalBronco7
10-31-2010, 05:37 PM
Orton wilts under pressure. Be it mental or physical pressure, Orton can not support it's weight. He has proven this fact time and again. Todays pathetic excuse for a performance with the game on the line should have been enough to sign his death warrant as Broncos QB.

Sadly, there are still Bronco fans that excuse his mediocre play.

Please tell me if there is a single Bronco fan who honestly thinks to himself "thank God we have Orton" during a crucial time of any game.

Despite a couple bad games Orton is top 5-10 in passing in almost every meaningful category. Thats not mediocre. He also has no running game or a defense. The passing game is the only stregth for the Broncos!

Stop hating its not his fault.

PAINTERDAVE
10-31-2010, 05:38 PM
Besides... all Tebow has ever done is just win win win.

Orton is getting used to losing.

Tned
10-31-2010, 05:39 PM
Orton is playing well and gives the Broncos a better chance to win next year. Give him more time to grow in McDaniels system.

Bottom line, unless you honestly believe Tebow will be more successful next year than Orton, Tebow wont start anytime this year.

Everybody wants to talk about Tebow being the future, but if it comes at the expense of the success of the Broncos in 2011, then he shouldnt and most likely wont start anytime soon.

If the formula was that simple, I would agree. However, we are 18 games into this dismal play and there is actually nothing but 'hope' that tells us that 2011 will be any better.

Watchthemiddle
10-31-2010, 05:39 PM
A couple questions...can Tebow make the throws to Lloyd that Orton made today??

Can Tebow improve the run game?

Can he stop the run on defense?

Can he kick?

Can he return kicks?

If you answered yes to all 5 then it's Tebow time.

Other than that, Orton and splitting the locker room like Shanny did (Plummer v Cutler) it's not time to make a qb change.

Just my opinion.

chazoe60
10-31-2010, 05:41 PM
Despite a couple bad games Orton is top 5-10 in passing in almost every meaningful category. Thats not mediocre. He also has no running game or a defense. The passing game is the only stregth for the Broncos!

Stop hating its not his fault.

Yep gigging to the Raiders in the first quarter had nothing to do with the loss. And his atrocious play at the end of this game, in crunch time, also was not his fault and had no bearing on the outcome.

BroncoStud
10-31-2010, 05:41 PM
Despite a couple bad games Orton is top 5-10 in passing in almost every meaningful category. Thats not mediocre. He also has no running game or a defense. The passing game is the only stregth for the Broncos!

Stop hating its not his fault.

Don't you think that the fact we are throwing 40 times per/week has something to do with Orton's inflated stats? The Broncos are also ranked 24th in 3rd down conversions, a rather meaningful stat.

claymore
10-31-2010, 05:42 PM
A couple questions...can Tebow make the throws to Lloyd that Orton made today??

Can Tebow improve the run game?

Can he stop the run on defense?

Can he kick?

Can he return kicks?

If you answered yes to all 5 then it's Tebow time.

Other than that, Orton and splitting the locker room like Shanny did (Plummer v Cutler) it's not time to make a qb change.

Just my opinion.
Id rather lose with a rookie than lose with a vet. And to be honest, I dont give a shit if we lose this squad. Its a 2-6 loser team.

Watchthemiddle
10-31-2010, 05:45 PM
Id rather lose with a rookie than lose with a vet. And to be honest, I dont give a shit if we lose this squad. Its a 2-6 loser team.

So you clearly missed the point. What is Tebow going to do to improve this team where it needs improvement at NOW??

Watchthemiddle
10-31-2010, 05:47 PM
Don't you think that the fact we are throwing 40 times per/week has something to do with Orton's inflated stats? The Broncos are also ranked 24th in 3rd down conversions, a rather meaningful stat.

The reason we are throwing so much is we can't run the ball on offense or stop the run and get off the field on defense.

3 straight 100 yard rushers in 3 straight games...a melt down once again by the D when we had the lead, costly inexcusable penalties, weak offensive line, and no pass rush causes us to have to throw the ball so much.

BroncoWave
10-31-2010, 05:48 PM
So you clearly missed the point. What is Tebow going to do to improve this team where it needs improvement at NOW??

Why does it matter? This team is going nowhere right now. At least Tebow will give us a chance to see what we have for the future.

claymore
10-31-2010, 05:48 PM
So you clearly missed the point. What is Tebow going to do to improve this team where it needs improvement at NOW??

My reply sounded snotty, and that wasnt my intention.,

The point with tebow is that many believe the season is lost. There is no way to improve us Now.

But we might as well have a positive to take away from the worst Bronco season in 20 years.

spikerman
10-31-2010, 05:51 PM
I haven't looked it up myself, but the announcers on the Chargers - Titans game just said that no team that started 2-6 has ever made the playoffs. Play the kid and see what he can do while he gets some experience.

I Eat Staples
10-31-2010, 05:52 PM
Tebow isn't the future any more than McD is. The only reason he was a first round pick is because McD doesn't know what he's doing.

Watchthemiddle
10-31-2010, 05:53 PM
Okay...so this is a Tebow/Orton thread and I respect your guys opinions...(I have Tebow as my avvy for crying out loud)

I don't want to derail this thread, but who do you think is best suited for coaching up Tebow and getting the most out of his talents? My answer would be McDaniels.

So, we ditch the season...put in Tebow and McDaniels coaches him up and we salvage out 4 more wins.

At seasons end do we ditch McDaniels? Just something to think about.

NorCalBronco7
10-31-2010, 06:02 PM
I appreciate your opinion... but that is all it is. An opinion.]

Lets me guess whats coming next, YOUR OPINION? lol


[Many of us are of the opinion that Tebow has unlimited potential.

You talk of McD's complex sysytem. His system has failed, hasn't it?

It would be smart to create a new game plan, designed around Tebow's abilities... and then find out what he can do...
then McD would be better able to design a good system... that is not too "complex" for the players we have on the team.

Besides... everything I have heard is that Tebow is very intelligent and smart as a whip. He has never been accused of not being able to grasp the mechanics of the game. In point of fact... he is very much a lifelong student of the game and is probably better able to grasp complex strategies than many.

Saying Orotn is better is simply one opinion.
Leaving Tebow on the bench...
that option was for if we were winning big time and making aplayoff run.
That scenarios is gone.

The reality is... the team moved up to draft him...
paid dearly in draft picks...
they see him as the future...
and it is now a perfect opportunity to get him crucial real game development time.

If not... then all those picks they spent on him were wasted.

If not now, in this unique situation... what was the point of drafting him?

First of all no, McDaniels systems has not entirely failed. His passing attack is one of the best in the NFL, ranked 2nd in the league. Because the running game sucks McDaniels should create a new one? Im sure hes has more pride than that.

All Tebow is right now is potential. But Orton is proven. Thats a MF'n FACT. :salute: It is my opinion that the proven vet should start over the unproven rookie, but if NFL history is of value, my opinion holds more weight than yours. Cmon PAINTERDAVE, name one rookie Qb that started over a solid vetern ever. Dont hurt yourself. You sure as hell wont name two.

The point in drafting Tebow was to develop him behind a vetern and start him down the road when hes ready, which would most likely be at least a couple years (does Ortons contract extention come to mind?).

PAINTERDAVE
10-31-2010, 06:04 PM
Tebow isn't the future any more than McD is. The only reason he was a first round pick is because McD doesn't know what he's doing.

If you think McD pulled the trigger on the Tebow Draft with out Bowlen on board you are naive.

All around the league... many teams wanted him.
Gruden and Steve Young both think he is gonna be golden.

Time to find out.

You saying ... as if it is a fact...
that Tebow is NOT the future...

well... the future is unwritten... and your prediction is not FACT.

Wether Tebow is great or not...

this unique situation calls for his development.

It is time.


You can acept it or not... it does not matter.

What matters is what Bowlen tells McD on the plane flight home.

Bosco
10-31-2010, 06:13 PM
Putting Tebow in would be borderline insane at this point. Orton is still playing very well and you don't risk stunting your developmental player's growth, possibly ruin his confidence and turn the locker room against you in hopes of catching a bit of a spark.

Keep him on the bench for this year. In the offseason, you can evaluate whether he's capable of making a legit push for the starting job. Hopefully Orton continues or improves his solid play so you can keep Tebow on the bench for 2011 as well before letting him take the reigns in 2012.

I Eat Staples
10-31-2010, 06:17 PM
All around the league... many teams wanted him.

This is false. Only a select few teams wanted him, and they were teams with absolutely horrible talent evaluaters. (Bills, Vikings) Brad Childress thought Tavaris Jackson would be a great QB. He comes from the Eagles, who have no clue how to evaluate talent. And we all know how much success the Bills have been having.

Tebow has the skillset of a 5th round pick. Sorry.

NorCalBronco7
10-31-2010, 06:21 PM
If the formula was that simple, I would agree. However, we are 18 games into this dismal play and there is actually nothing but 'hope' that tells us that 2011 will be any better.

Acctually Orton is one of only a few players on the Broncos that are having a good season. Hes one of the few players that gives me hope next year.


A couple questions...can Tebow make the throws to Lloyd that Orton made today??

Can Tebow improve the run game?

Can he stop the run on defense?

Can he kick?

Can he return kicks?

If you answered yes to all 5 then it's Tebow time.

Other than that, Orton and splitting the locker room like Shanny did (Plummer v Cutler) it's not time to make a qb change.

Just my opinion.

For sure.

Tebow can do it all! :lol:


Yep gigging to the Raiders in the first quarter had nothing to do with the loss. And his atrocious play at the end of this game, in crunch time, also was not his fault and had no bearing on the outcome.

I said he had a bad game, chill. Im not making excuses for Orton.

If your being this defensive it means Im on the offense.....


Don't you think that the fact we are throwing 40 times per/week has something to do with Orton's inflated stats? The Broncos are also ranked 24th in 3rd down conversions, a rather meaningful stat.

Dont you think a predictable offense is easier to stop?

And when your constantly trying to convert 3rd and 7+ because of the lack of running game, it makes it much harder. Im curious as to what the Broncos average 3rd down distance compared to the NFL average. Im positive the Broncos are way above it.

BroncoStud
10-31-2010, 06:26 PM
This is false. Only a select few teams wanted him, and they were teams with absolutely horrible talent evaluaters. (Bills, Vikings) Brad Childress thought Tavaris Jackson would be a great QB. He comes from the Eagles, who have no clue how to evaluate talent. And we all know how much success the Bills have been having.

Tebow has the skillset of a 5th round pick. Sorry.

So you sat in the war-rooms of 32 NFL teams?

BroncoStud
10-31-2010, 06:27 PM
Acctually Orton is one of only a few players on the Broncos that are having a good season. Hes one of the few players that gives me hope next year.



For sure.

Tebow can do it all! :lol:



I said he had a bad game, chill. Im not making excuses for Orton.

If your being this defensive it means Im on the offense.....



Dont you think a predictable offense is easier to stop?

Of course a predictable team is easier to defend, Tebow would add an element to the offense that is severely lacking... Unpredicability.

NorCalBronco7
10-31-2010, 06:33 PM
Of course a predictable team is easier to defend, Tebow would add an element to the offense that is severely lacking... Unpredicability.

Hey we all have our dreams....

Tned
10-31-2010, 06:34 PM
Acctually Orton is one of only a few players on the Broncos that are having a good season. Hes one of the few players that gives me hope next year.


I think Orton is having a great year, but it's limited. He's done a good job of limiting interceptions with all the passes and no running game, but he has also shown ZERO ability to put together big drive when the game is on the line.

When you have a team that is playing bad in other places, you need a QB that can will the team to a win, put it on his shoulders. Orton clearly can't. We don't know if Tebow can.

NorCalBronco7
10-31-2010, 06:37 PM
My challange to PAINTERDAVE goes out to you all. What rookie Qb in NFL history ever started over a solid vetern? Maybe once you guys look into it you'll understand how much forsight is lacking with the idea of starting Tebow over Neckbeard.

ps. The vetern cant be injured or dead. :mad:

Watchthemiddle
10-31-2010, 06:38 PM
This entire "QB" controversy that really doesn't exist is eerily similar to the 2006 season the only difference is we were 7-4 when Shanny decided to go with Cutler only to end the season going 2-3, alienating a proven winner and leader at QB to go with an unproven rookie.

How did the following years turn out for us?

NorCalBronco7
10-31-2010, 06:40 PM
I think Orton is having a great year, but it's limited. He's done a good job of limiting interceptions with all the passes and no running game, but he has also shown ZERO ability to put together big drive when the game is on the line.

When you have a team that is playing bad in other places, you need a QB that can will the team to a win, put it on his shoulders. Orton clearly can't. We don't know if Tebow can.

Even Elways couldnt be competitive in a game with the worst running game in the NFL and one of the worst defenses in the NFL. Sorry.

All this aside, is this a reason to bench Orton? I dont think so.

Apollo
10-31-2010, 06:42 PM
There is no reason to bench Orton based on his performances. We aren't going to do rats arse this season though, whether we have a QB who can manage a game or not means nothing. We should let Tebow get experience and see whether we can roll with him next season.

Bosco
10-31-2010, 06:42 PM
So you sat in the war-rooms of 32 NFL teams?

Seriously man, don't even bother. This dude ranted ad nauseum all summer about getting rid of Brandon Lloyd and now the guy is one of the leading receivers in the NFL. He's as clueless as he believes McDaniels is. I think he projects it, to be honest.

chazoe60
10-31-2010, 06:45 PM
My challange to PAINTERDAVE goes out to you all. What rookie Qb in NFL history ever started over a solid vetern? Maybe once you guys look into it you'll understand how much forsight is lacking with the idea of starting Tebow over Neckbeard.

ps. The vetern cant be injured or dead. :mad:

But Orton is not a solid veteran. He is a mediocre game manager with stats padded by attempts and a QB friendly system. Orton inspires zero confidence in anyone around him. Orton is not suited to ever win anything of merit in the NFL, unless he's surrounded by a top ten running game and defense, which we obviously do not have.

Orton is not the entire problem but he sure as Hell is not the solution. As I asked earlier show me one person who thinks to themselves "thank God we have Orton" during a crucial spot.

NorCalBronco7
10-31-2010, 06:47 PM
This entire "QB" controversy that really doesn't exist is eerily similar to the 2006 season the only difference is we were 7-4 when Shanny decided to go with Cutler only to end the season going 2-3, alienating a proven winner and leader at QB to go with an unproven rookie.

How did the following years turn out for us?

In 06 if you remember Plummer was off the charts BAD. 11tds 13ints 68 qbr 7 fumbles. He was a vetern, just no longer a solid one. I wanted Cutler to start.

This year on the other hand we dont have that Qb controvery, we just have impatient fans that by into the medias hype of a rookie Qb and hopes that he could play better than current qb who is playing well (all the while with the chance of starting him too early and ruining his career! lol).

spikerman
10-31-2010, 06:50 PM
I don't want Orton out because of anything he did. I think Orton has been playing pretty well. It's obvious the Broncos aren't going anywhere this season so they may as well play for the future. Let Tebow get his "live fire" training now. What's the worst that can happen - they lose? How is that any different? The decision divides the lockerroom? A lot of people say if players don't want to be in Denver than they don't want them - so that would clear those guys out. Of course few, if any players play in Denver because that's where they want to be. They'll go where the money is, but that's another issue. Either way, unless you think this team still has a chance to make a run this year - and if you do you're one of the all time great optimists, I think much more can be gained by going ahead and playing for the future.

Northman
10-31-2010, 06:50 PM
This year on the other hand we dont have that Qb controvery, we just have impatient fans that by into the medias hype of a rookie Qb and hopes that he could play better than current qb who is playing well (all the while with the chance of starting him too early and ruining his career! lol).

Peyton Manning would disagree with you.

oubronco
10-31-2010, 06:51 PM
D-line and O-line nuff said

claymore
10-31-2010, 06:51 PM
My challange to PAINTERDAVE goes out to you all. What rookie Qb in NFL history ever started over a solid vetern? Maybe once you guys look into it you'll understand how much forsight is lacking with the idea of starting Tebow over Neckbeard.

ps. The vetern cant be injured or dead. :mad:

John Elway.

Watchthemiddle
10-31-2010, 06:52 PM
In 06 if you remember Plummer was off the charts BAD. 11tds 13ints 68 qbr 7 fumbles. He was a vetern, just no longer a solid one. I wanted Cutler to start.

This year on the other hand we dont have that Qb controvery, we just have impatient fans that by into the medias hype of a rookie Qb and hopes that he could play better than current qb who is playing well (all the while with the chance of starting him too early and ruining his career! lol).

Oh ya I remember...and I still believe the reason Plummer was so bad was that he was coming off of playing in the AFCCG, 13-3 season, and Shanny goes and drafts Cutler. Plummer didn't/couldn't deal with that pressure and folded.

Orton on the other hand, has shined under the constant pressure that started on draft day and without his play/leadership/..etc. we would be 0-8.

I wouldn't mind seeing Tebow throw some out of the Tebow package if that is the case of more PT, but to make him a starter when he has yet to do anything other than run the ball this year would be a bad decision..IMO.

NorCalBronco7
10-31-2010, 06:55 PM
But Orton is not a solid veteran. He is a mediocre game manager with stats padded by attempts and a QB friendly system. Orton inspires zero confidence in anyone around him. Orton is not suited to ever win anything of merit in the NFL, unless he's surrounded by a top ten running game and defense, which we obviously do not have.

Orton is not the entire problem but he sure as Hell is not the solution. As I asked earlier show me one person who thinks to themselves "thank God we have Orton" during a crucial spot.

Orton doesnt inspire confidence in people around him? Is that why the team voted him captain?

You can keep posted trash talk about Orton but until you even at least make an attempt to substantiate it, its means nothing.

Top 5-10 in every meaningful passing stat means something. Whether or not hes on a "pass friendly" team or in other words a predictable offense.

BTW Ortons performance alone does not merit benching, which seems to be your lame argument.

Watchthemiddle
10-31-2010, 06:55 PM
I don't want Orton out because of anything he did. I think Orton has been playing pretty well. It's obvious the Broncos aren't going anywhere this season so they may as well play for the future. Let Tebow get his "live fire" training now. What's the worst that can happen - they lose? How is that any different? The decision divides the lockerroom? A lot of people say if players don't want to be in Denver than they don't want them - so that would clear those guys out. Of course few, if any players play in Denver because that's where they want to be. They'll go where the money is, but that's another issue. Either way, unless you think this team still has a chance to make a run this year - and if you do you're one of the all time great optimists, I think much more can be gained by going ahead and playing for the future.

What good is playing the "future" when he is going to get killed in the process?

Goodbye Lloyd and his catches because Tebow can't make those throws to him. He might have the arm strength, but the timing won't be there.

I understand that when all hope seems to be lost, the sexy thing to do would be to put in Tebow, but I see bad things happening if that were to happen right now.

Next year when there is no football...:tsk::tsk:...he can be groomed for 2012.

dunk7
10-31-2010, 06:56 PM
But Orton is not a solid veteran. He is a mediocre game manager with stats padded by attempts and a QB friendly system. Orton inspires zero confidence in anyone around him. Orton is not suited to ever win anything of merit in the NFL, unless he's surrounded by a top ten running game and defense, which we obviously do not have.

Orton is not the entire problem but he sure as Hell is not the solution. As I asked earlier show me one person who thinks to themselves "thank God we have Orton" during a crucial spot.

At least someone on this board actually watches the games and doesn't look purely at statistics. Admittedly, I was shocked that he had started off the year well but he has looked mediocre for at least the last 3 games...he's starting to make stupid turnovers at key points in the game. Let's get Tebow some experience and if we lose, big deal. Let's see if Tebow is the long term solution and why not get a good draft pick in the process (and hopefully prompt a coaching change).

spikerman
10-31-2010, 06:58 PM
What good is playing the "future" when he is going to get killed in the process?

Goodbye Lloyd and his catches because Tebow can't make those throws to him. He might have the arm strength, but the timing won't be there.

I understand that when all hope seems to be lost, the sexy thing to do would be to put in Tebow, but I see bad things happening if that were to happen right now.

Next year when there is no football...:tsk::tsk:...he can be groomed for 2012.

I'm not sure he would be in any more danger than Orton. He would probably play with a slimmed down playbook and he's bigger and more mobile than Orton so he has some escapability. It's not about being "sexy" it's looking at it from the pov that if Denver is going to lose anyway, make them "productive" losses. Besides, Tebow is now an NFL player. If a chance of him getting injured should keep him off the field he may as well retire right now.

NorCalBronco7
10-31-2010, 07:00 PM
Peyton Manning would disagree with you.
Go on, who was the solid vetern that Peyton started over?


John Elway.

Please explain this one!



:lol:


Oh ya I remember...and I still believe the reason Plummers was so bad was that he was coming off of playing in the AFCCG, 13-3 season, and Shanny goes and drafts Cutler. Plummer didn't/couldn't deal with that pressure and folded.

Orton on the other hand, has shined under the constant pressure that started on draft day and without his play/leadership/..etc. we would be 0-8.

I wouldn't mind seeing Tebow throw some out of the Tebow package if that is the case of more PT, but to make him a starter when he has yet to do anything other than run the ball this year would be a bad decision..IMO.

Cutler being drafted had to get into Plummer head and heart. Either way, he was bad.

Yeah, Im with you in that id like to see Tebow throw more out of the Broncos heavy, swamp, whatever its called formation. Its too predictable.

Watchthemiddle
10-31-2010, 07:01 PM
I'm not sure he would be in any more danger than Orton. He would probably play with a slimmed down playbook and he's bigger and more mobile than Orton so he has some escapability. It's not about being "sexy" it's looking at it from the pov that if Denver is going to lose anyway, make them "productive" losses. Besides, Tebow is now an NFL player. If a chance of him getting injured should keep him off the field he may as well retire right now.

Productive losses??

Goodbye Champ, DJ, Dawkins, Clady, Lloyd, and any other veteran who is not willing to give up on the season for "productive losses".

claymore
10-31-2010, 07:03 PM
Please explain this one!



:lol:



You asked,


Originally Posted by NorCalBronco7
My challange to PAINTERDAVE goes out to you all. What rookie Qb in NFL history ever started over a solid vetern? Maybe once you guys look into it you'll understand how much forsight is lacking with the idea of starting Tebow over Neckbeard.

ps. The vetern cant be injured or dead.


And I stated "John Elway".

spikerman
10-31-2010, 07:04 PM
Productive losses??

Goodbye Champ, DJ, Dawkins, Clady, Lloyd, and any other veteran who is not willing to give up on the season for "productive losses". Well Champ is probably gone anyway.. the rest of the guys are under contract (I think) so they aren't going anywhere. Do you really think these guys don't know that they're done? Besides... it's for the good of the team. Isn't that what's been preached since McDaniels took over? It's all about the TEAM now. If some indivduals don't see it's for the good of the team then too bad.

NorCalBronco7
10-31-2010, 07:04 PM
Suckers took the bait......






:cool:

NorCalBronco7
10-31-2010, 07:09 PM
You asked,


And I stated "John Elway".

Can you even at least name the injured player Elway started over his rookie year?

Ok Ill budge. As for Peyton, he was forced to start because the Colts had decided to trade their former Qb Jim Harbaugh. So Peyton would infact agree with me.

spikerman
10-31-2010, 07:29 PM
Can you even at least name the injured player Elway started over his rookie year?

I believe Elway started over Steve Deberg. Your question is flawed anyway. No matter who anybody chooses you would argue whether the qb that was replaced was "quality" or not. Besides, what difference does every other situation make? This is the 2010 Broncos (unfortunately).

PAINTERDAVE
10-31-2010, 07:29 PM
What good is playing the "future" when he is going to get killed in the process?

Goodbye Lloyd and his catches because Tebow can't make those throws to him. He might have the arm strength, but the timing won't be there.

I understand that when all hope seems to be lost, the sexy thing to do would be to put in Tebow, but I see bad things happening if that were to happen right now.

Next year when there is no football...:tsk::tsk:...he can be groomed for 2012.

You saying Tebow cant make those throws does not make it so.,
You saying Tebow will "get killed" does not make it so.

Watchthemiddle
10-31-2010, 07:30 PM
Well Champ is probably gone anyway.. the rest of the guys are under contract (I think) so they aren't going anywhere. Do you really think these guys don't know that they're done? Besides... it's for the good of the team. Isn't that what's been preached since McDaniels took over? It's all about the TEAM now. If some indivduals don't see it's for the good of the team then too bad.

Unless our running game improves drastically, our D can stop the run drastically, and we can stop the stupid penalties, Tebow won't make a difference and any improvement we HAVE made on the offense will be all for not.

The O-line will still be pathetic, teams are going to tee off on Tebow and we won't even have a passing thread to hang our hat on.

And how is putting in an unproven Rookie when you have a solid Vet lighting it up good for the team?

After last weeks debacle against Oak, many thought the players gave up. This entire week leading up to today they had to defend themselves saying they did not give up. Putting in Tebow is McDaniels giving up. It's too early for that, and I don't want to waste the last 8 games of this season.....especially when there might not be one next year.

Speaking of that, if there is no season next year, and we put in Tebow now. He plays 8 games, gets lit up, and then has a year off. What good will that do?

shank
10-31-2010, 07:32 PM
part of me wanted to see tebow come in today when orton took the big hit. not because i want orton out, but because i thought maybe it would spark something, and the team would rally...

i don't think it's time for tebow to get out there yet. if we don't come out of the bye looking like a brand new team, then it won't take long before i want to get a look at him though.

PAINTERDAVE
10-31-2010, 07:33 PM
Productive losses??

Goodbye Champ, DJ, Dawkins, Clady, Lloyd, and any other veteran who is not willing to give up on the season for "productive losses".

It is not a question of "giving up on the season".

The season is OVER. Did you watchg the Raiders game?
Did you see the game today?
Dont you accept reality?
The chiefs won ugly again... but they won.

This team is NOT in any way , shape, or form a playoff team....
nor will they win the division.

Acceptance is a key to happiness.

NorCalBronco7
10-31-2010, 07:36 PM
I believe Elway started over Steve Deberg. Your question is flawed anyway. No matter who anybody chooses you would argue whether the qb that was replaced was "quality" or not. Besides, what difference does every other situation make? This is the 2010 Broncos (unfortunately).

My question is absolutly legitiment.

Iask it because the scenario of rookie tebow starting over a solid player like Orton NEVER HAPPENS.

"Quality" is not some nebulous turn without meaning. Its not hard to gauge whether or not a qb is a quality starter.

The difference is that what this thread is asserting typically never happens in the NFL. Thats a pretty good pre cursor to what the Broncos are going to do, right?

BTW Elways started because of injury.

PAINTERDAVE
10-31-2010, 07:36 PM
part of me wanted to see tebow come in today when orton took the big hit. not because i want orton out, but because i thought maybe it would spark something, and the team would rally...

i don't think it's time for tebow to get out there yet. if we don't come out of the bye looking like a brand new team, then it won't take long before i want to get a look at him though.

That is the point, though.

This is a unique opportunity to USE the bye week to switch gears and set new goals and come up with a game plan that will allow us to use Tebow and develop him.

PAINTERDAVE
10-31-2010, 07:39 PM
Look... for many of us... and I think it is valid...

it is a foregone conclusion that Tebow will get his shot.

We just see it as NOW is the time.

For those who have never accepted this premise...
for those who think we should trade Tebow...
and keep Orton...

we will never agree.

Time will tell.

This is simply our fan discussion board.

we dont have the power.

But soon enough.. we will find out what those who do have the power...
we will find out what they decide.

If you think this is not what Josh and Pat are talking about right now on the plane ride home...

I think you are naive.

NorCalBronco7
10-31-2010, 07:40 PM
Hey PAINTERDAVE are you going to respond or are you just going to mindlessly pass over my post? I know I cornered you and brought to light the faults of your OP, but you could at least show the respect and respond.

NorCalBronco7
10-31-2010, 07:42 PM
Look... for many of us... and I think it is valid...

it is a foregone conclusion that Tebow will get his shot.

We just see it as NOW is the time.

For those who have never accepted this premise...
for those who think we should trade Tebow...
and keep Orton...

we will never agree.

Time will tell.

This is simply our fan discussion board.

we dont have the power.

But soon enough.. we will find out what those who do have the power...
we will find out what they decide.

If you think this is not what Josh and Pat are talking about right now on the plane ride home...

I think you are naive.

It is not a forgone conclusion.

Bottom line rookies Qbs never start over solid veterns. Get it? :eek:

claymore
10-31-2010, 07:42 PM
Can you even at least name the injured player Elway started over his rookie year?

Ok Ill budge. As for Peyton, he was forced to start because the Colts had decided to trade their former Qb Jim Harbaugh. So Peyton would infact agree with me.
I dont think Deberg was injured.

PAINTERDAVE
10-31-2010, 07:43 PM
My question is absolutly legitiment.

Iask it because the scenario of rookie tebow starting over a solid player like Orton NEVER HAPPENS.

"Quality" is not some nebulous turn without meaning. Its not hard to gauge whether or not a qb is a quality starter.

The difference is that what this thread is asserting typically never happens in the NFL. Thats a pretty good pre cursor to what the Broncos are going to do, right?

I bet Dallas or Buffalo WISH they had a Tebow (or Colt McCoy or Clausen) with whom to throw in and develop during the second half of their wasted season.

The kid in Tampa Bay is doing pretty good.
The Rams are working on their future.


Orton is NOT our future.

Face it.

spikerman
10-31-2010, 07:43 PM
Unless our running game improves drastically, our D can stop the run drastically, and we can stop the stupid penalties, Tebow won't make a difference and any improvement we HAVE made on the offense will be all for not.

The O-line will still be pathetic, teams are going to tee off on Tebow and we won't even have a passing thread to hang our hat on.

And how is putting in an unproven Rookie when you have a solid Vet lighting it up good for the team?

After last weeks debacle against Oak, many thought the players gave up. This entire week leading up to today they had to defend themselves saying they did not give up. Putting in Tebow is McDaniels giving up. It's too early for that, and I don't want to waste the last 8 games of this season.....especially when there might not be one next year.

Speaking of that, if there is no season next year, and we put in Tebow now. He plays 8 games, gets lit up, and then has a year off. What good will that do? Personally, I don't think there has been an offensive improvement. Yes, the passing numbers are up but that's because the Broncos are completely one dimensional.

You are still working under the premise that this season is salvagable. What I'm saying is that the season is basically over after the regular season so the team should start preparing for the future.

PAINTERDAVE
10-31-2010, 07:45 PM
It is not a forgone conclusion.

Bottom line rookies Qbs never start over solid veterns. Get it? :eek:

You saying it is not... does not make it so.

I wrote that it is our opinion...

you have yours.

we'll see what happens.

Peace, love, and understanding, bro.

PAINTERDAVE
10-31-2010, 07:46 PM
Hey PAINTERDAVE are you going to respond or are you just going to mindlessly pass over my post? I know I cornered you and brought to light the faults of your OP, but you could at least show the respect and respond.

I missed it. I'll go back and look.

Northman
10-31-2010, 07:46 PM
You saying it is not... does not make it so.

I wrote that it is our opinion...

you have yours.

we'll see what happens.

Peace, love, and understanding, bro.


Well said and very respectful.

spikerman
10-31-2010, 07:47 PM
My question is absolutly legitiment.

Iask it because the scenario of rookie tebow starting over a solid player like Orton NEVER HAPPENS.

"Quality" is not some nebulous turn without meaning. Its not hard to gauge whether or not a qb is a quality starter.

The difference is that what this thread is asserting typically never happens in the NFL. Thats a pretty good pre cursor to what the Broncos are going to do, right?

BTW Elways started because of injury. Quality is absolutely in the eye of the beholder. What if I had said that Roethlisberger started over Tommy Maddox in his rookie year? Would you have said that Maddox wasn't a quality starter? What if I disagreed? I'm not saying I would disagree, I'm just saying that it's a slippery slope and too subjective to prove your point.

PAINTERDAVE
10-31-2010, 07:52 PM
My challange to PAINTERDAVE goes out to you all. What rookie Qb in NFL history ever started over a solid vetern? Maybe once you guys look into it you'll understand how much forsight is lacking with the idea of starting Tebow over Neckbeard.

ps. The vetern cant be injured or dead. :mad:

Again... this has nothing to do with our unique situation now.

It is about the direction of team at this watershed moment in it's history.

This choice could be one of the greatest moments in Bronco History.

Or not. Maybe it would be a bad choice.

To simply stumble along on the same path, however.. is worse than a bad choice.

The season is over... it calls for a new direction.

claymore
10-31-2010, 07:52 PM
My question is absolutly legitiment.

Iask it because the scenario of rookie tebow starting over a solid player like Orton NEVER HAPPENS.

"Quality" is not some nebulous turn without meaning. Its not hard to gauge whether or not a qb is a quality starter.

The difference is that what this thread is asserting typically never happens in the NFL. Thats a pretty good pre cursor to what the Broncos are going to do, right?

BTW Elways started because of injury.

Teams with good QB's dont draft QB's in the first round either.

Northman
10-31-2010, 07:55 PM
Quality is absolutely in the eye of the beholder. What if I had said that Roethlisberger started over Tommy Maddox in his rookie year? Would you have said that Maddox wasn't a quality starter? What if I disagreed? I'm not saying I would disagree, I'm just saying that it's a slippery slope and too subjective to prove your point.

The other thing is what is the w/l record of those quality starters? Would i expect to see a guy replace Brady, Manning, or Brees while they are winning ballgames? I dont think so. If Denver were winning the issue of getting Tebow some reps wouldnt be an issue. But alas, Denver is not winning so getting Tebow experience will only HELP the Broncos, not hurt them.

NorCalBronco7
10-31-2010, 07:58 PM
I dont think Deberg was injured.

Deberg got injured in week 11 of Elways rookie year and Elway started from then on. Plus Degerg SUCKED! Look at his crappy stats.



You saying it is not... does not make it so.

I wrote that it is our opinion...

you have yours.

we'll see what happens.

Peace, love, and understanding, bro.

Its not an opinion that rookie Qbs never start over solid veterns. Its a FACT. All you have, however, is opinion.

claymore
10-31-2010, 08:03 PM
Deberg got injured in week 11 of Elways rookie year and Elway started from then on. Plus Degerg SUCKED! Look at his crappy stats.




Its not an opinion that rookie Qbs never start over solid veterns. Its a FACT. All you have, however, is opinion.
Elway started the very first game in 83 against Pittsburgh. He started and was pulled multiple times, in multiple games.

Deberg was as good if not better than Orton IMO.

spikerman
10-31-2010, 08:03 PM
Plus Degerg SUCKED! Look at his crappy stats.
Thank you for proving my point.

NorCalBronco7
10-31-2010, 08:03 PM
Quality is absolutely in the eye of the beholder. What if I had said that Roethlisberger started over Tommy Maddox in his rookie year? Would you have said that Maddox wasn't a quality starter? What if I disagreed? I'm not saying I would disagree, I'm just saying that it's a slippery slope and too subjective to prove your point.

:lol:

Yeah its to tough to determine if a players good or not.....



Teams with good QB's dont draft QB's in the first round either.

Who says it has to be a 1st rounder? Any draft pick will.



The other thing is what is the w/l record of those quality starters? Would i expect to see a guy replace Brady, Manning, or Brees while they are winning ballgames? I dont think so. If Denver were winning the issue of getting Tebow some reps wouldnt be an issue. But alas, Denver is not winning so getting Tebow experience will only HELP the Broncos, not hurt them.

Unless the win/loss record falls entirely on the Qb, then it doesnt matter.

PAINTERDAVE
10-31-2010, 08:08 PM
Deberg got injured in week 11 of Elways rookie year and Elway started from then on. Plus Degerg SUCKED! Look at his crappy stats.




Its not an opinion that rookie Qbs never start over solid veterns. Its a FACT. All you have, however, is opinion.

I was talking about how many fans have reached the forgone conclusion that Tebow will get his shot.

Tebow getting his shot has NOTHING to do with the historic record of how rookies in this league wind up starting.

The point was made that first round QB picks are not made by teams who have a solid Qb at the helm.

Orton has done well. I like him. That does not change the Broncos plans for Tebow to get a shot.

I get where you are coming from... but I think this is a UNIQUE situation.

A singular situation... unlike other instances of the past.

____________________________
Down the road... we will see wether my opinion is reflective of that of Pat Bowlen or not....

claymore
10-31-2010, 08:08 PM
:lol:

Yeah its to tough to determine if a players good or not.....




Who says it has to be a 1st rounder? Any draft pick will.




Unless the win/loss record falls entirely on the Qb, then it doesnt matter.
Because people dont draft 1st rounders to sit on the bench.

NorCalBronco7
10-31-2010, 08:08 PM
Elway started the very first game in 83 against Pittsburgh. He started and was pulled multiple times, in multiple games.

Deberg was as good if not better than Orton IMO.

Elway started the first game of the season, your right.

But Deberg had 7 tds 11ints the year before and a 67 qbr. Better than Orton my ass!

Infact Deberg never through more TDs than picks his entire career before 1983.

Terrible example.

Northman
10-31-2010, 08:09 PM
:lol:

Unless the win/loss record falls entirely on the Qb, then it doesnt matter.


You really are clueless arent you?

Its not about blaming Orton for the losing genius. Ive stated this over a hundred times yet you continue to disregard that fact. Its about the team not being where they should be with a veteran QB. The season is lost and the intelligent thing to do here is get our QB of the future some gametime experience so that he is prepared going into next year.

Shazam!
10-31-2010, 08:14 PM
The season is lost and the intelligent thing to do here is get our QB of the future some gametime experience so that he is prepared going into next year.

Or for the new Coach to see his options at QB.

I can't take this shit.

NorCalBronco7
10-31-2010, 08:17 PM
I was talking about how many fans have reached the forgone conclusion that Tebow will get his shot.

Tebow getting his shot has NOTHING to do with the historic record of how rookies in this league wind up starting.

The point was made that first round QB picks are not made by teams who have a solid Qb at the helm.

Orton has done well. I like him. That does not change the Broncos plans for Tebow to get a shot.

I get where you are coming from... but I think this is a UNIQUE situation.

A singular situation... unlike other instances of the past.

So since its never been done before, it doesnt matter. Tebow will be the first. :confused:

There nothing unique about the Broncos situation. Teams have been presented with this scenario before and all of them have opted to go with the solid vetern.

NorCalBronco7
10-31-2010, 08:19 PM
Because people dont draft 1st rounders to sit on the bench.

Uh yeah they do.

Carson Palmer was the #1 overall pick in 2003 and sat on the bench the entire season. Your wrong.

NorCalBronco7
10-31-2010, 08:19 PM
Thank you for proving my point.

And what is that exactly?

spikerman
10-31-2010, 08:21 PM
And what is that exactly?

That your question is too subjective to get an honest result.

NorCalBronco7
10-31-2010, 08:22 PM
You really are clueless arent you?

Its not about blaming Orton for the losing genius. Ive stated this over a hundred times yet you continue to disregard that fact. Its about the team not being where they should be with a veteran QB. The season is lost and the intelligent thing to do here is get our QB of the future some gametime experience so that he is prepared going into next year.

And if is was so intelligent then why has no teams ever done it before, genius?

claymore
10-31-2010, 08:23 PM
Elway started the first game of the season, your right.

But Deberg had 7 tds 11ints the year before and a 67 qbr. Better than Orton my ass!

Infact Deberg never through more TDs than picks his entire career before 1983.

Terrible example.
I cant argue with cherry picked stats.

Northman
10-31-2010, 08:24 PM
And if is was so intelligent then why has no teams ever done it before, genius?

Because there hasnt been a team that has a QB who has pretty stats yet are losing football games like we are. As pointed out too you (yet again) earlier our situation is not a normal one. If we were winning games then there would be no need to put Tebow in because we still have a chance at the playoffs. Thats out of the question here and serves no purpose to have Orton finish out the year.

claymore
10-31-2010, 08:27 PM
Uh yeah they do.

Carson Palmer was the #1 overall pick in 2003 and sat on the bench the entire season. Your wrong.
Im sure they drafted him to be the backup, and he won the starting job through legitimate competition! :laugh:

NorCalBronco7
10-31-2010, 08:28 PM
That your question is too subjective to get an honest result.

You guys are funny.

The Broncos are a bad team. Is that fair? Or is the statement too subjective? I think not.

Calling a Qb a good/bad is possible if you have stats to back up your reasoning. Use your head.

Its not a loaded question at all.

Watchthemiddle
10-31-2010, 08:29 PM
Originally Posted by Northman
You really are clueless arent you?

Its not about blaming Orton for the losing genius. Ive stated this over a hundred times yet you continue to disregard that fact. Its about the team not being where they should be with a veteran QB. The season is lost and the intelligent thing to do here is get our QB of the future some gametime experience so that he is prepared going into next year. "]

So where should the team be then with the veteran QB??

Have you seen our run game? Rushing defense? O-line?

You want to put a raw rookie QB in for some experience for next year? I see flashbacks of Carr in Texas when he was a rookie. I don't really want to see Tebow getting sacked 70 times just to get him some experience.

Northman
10-31-2010, 08:33 PM
"]

So where should the team be then with the veteran QB??

Have you seen our run game? Rushing defense? O-line?

You want to put a raw rookie QB in for some experience for next year? I see flashbacks of Carr in Texas when he was a rookie. I don't really want to see Tebow getting sacked 70 times just to get him some experience.


1) Tebow is far more mobile than Orton so 70 sacks wont happen. He is an athlete who can make things happen or so im told anyway.

2) Our line is not as bad as you guys want to paint it. Its just silly.

3) I cant count the times you and ilk have told me we would be winning at least 10 games this year.

4) Peyton Manning started his rookie year and it didnt hurt him one bit. The logic you guys are trying to paint is only telling me you arent sold on Tebow as our future. Either he is a great player or he isnt. If he is he will be just fine coming in the rest of the season. If he gets broke than he is nowhere near the talent of guys like Peyton Manning.

TXBRONC
10-31-2010, 08:35 PM
The Qb position is not the problem for the Broncos and its not the reason the Broncos have lost so many games. You guys need to stop saying Ortons not winning because its the Broncos who are not winning, not simply Orton.

So then would McDaniels put Tebow in to make the Qb position better? Its already a strength of this team!

If you think Tebow, who is an unproven rookie in a complicated system would produce better than Orton this year and next, your nuts. Orton has a firm grasp of the offense and has grown a lot since last year. We should expect an even better Orton next year.

Tebow shouldnt start yet.

I agree with you to a point. Orton has played well and has padded his stats in quarterback friendly offense. However what's happened in the close games where we have been behind going into the last couple of minutes of the game. That's happened 3 times so far this season twice the game has ended on interceptions by Orton. Imho when it comes to crunch time in a close game he can't close the deal. To me that's a clear indication that he can't carry this team.

I think some people want to have it both ways. When we were winning his stats didn't matter. But now that we are clearly in downward spiral and he's putting up career numbers it still doesn't matter.

I've said that I'm not sure Tebow should start right now but if McDaniels makes a switch wont complain. That being said, if the Broncos loses a couple more games I would be fully on board with Tebow starting before the end of the season. Here's why I say that, one of the main arguments for Orton is that he gives the best chance to win well that has worked out to the tune of a 2-6 record. So that argument imo gets weaker with each loss and if we have two or three more that argument will not hold any water at all.

NorCalBronco7
10-31-2010, 08:38 PM
I cant argue with cherry picked stats.

Your just being an ass now.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/D/DebeSt00.htm

look em up yourself. Deberg sucked.



Because there hasnt been a team that has a QB who has pretty stats yet are losing football games like we are. As pointed out too you (yet again) earlier our situation is not a normal one. If we were winning games then there would be no need to put Tebow in because we still have a chance at the playoffs. Thats out of the question here and serves no purpose to have Orton finish out the year.

The 2010 Chargers had the #1 offense and the #1 defense were 2-5. Phillip Rivers has played great and they still lost. Keep reaching for straws....



Im sure they drafted him to be the backup, and he won the starting job through legitimate competition! :laugh:

The next year!

PAINTERDAVE
10-31-2010, 08:40 PM
And if is was so intelligent then why has no teams ever done it before, genius?

Not a solid argument against the idea.

Northman
10-31-2010, 08:45 PM
The 2010 Chargers had the #1 offense and the #1 defense were 2-5. Phillip Rivers has played great and they still lost. Keep reaching for straws....






Their #1 in Yds, not scoring THATS why they are 3-5. :lol:

PAINTERDAVE
10-31-2010, 08:48 PM
Comparison...

when I was much younger...
the team traded our number one pick for the colts #1 pick...
we got John Elway.

He was the QB of the future. No one could know for sure... but it was a good bet.
Some people siad he'd never be great. Others said he hung the moon.
National coverage touted his talent and possibilties.

Steve DeBerg was displaced by him over time... as the season and situation dictated.

Gary Kubiak became his perennial backup. Kubiak was content with that role.


Today... the comparisons are similar.

Young buck QB drafted. National attention. High hopes.
Orton will be displaced. I can see that clear as cool water on a hot day.
Will Orton choose to be Tebows back up? Probably not over the long haul.
Will Tebow be one of the "great ones" ? Only time will tell.

Will he get his shot here? That is a foregone conclusion.
Is now the unique time... have all the stars lined up to say it is now?

Many of us think so.

It will be interesting to see what McD and Bowlen do next.

"It is a privilige to live in interesting times"

NorCalBronco7
10-31-2010, 08:48 PM
Not a solid argument against the idea.

Im pretty sure the fact that its never happened before supports my idea and not yours.

The fact that its never happened before also means its a great argument for me. If its never happened before, what makes you think it will happen now? Teams have had Qb play well and have had horrible records(phillip rivers). Theres nothing you pointed out that makes the Broncos situation unique. We are talking about something that we cant know for a fact right now. But looking at similar situations in the NFL (thats all we can do) makes my argument sound.

Northman
10-31-2010, 08:49 PM
Im getting tired of schooling NoCal here.

Shazam!
10-31-2010, 08:54 PM
What's the difference anyway?? I dont expect Denver to win another game this season, and why should I?? Let TT go.

McD is gone. Orton wont be here anyway.

PAINTERDAVE
10-31-2010, 08:57 PM
Comparison...

when I was much younger...
the team traded our number one pick for the colts #1 pick...
we got John Elway.

He was the QB of the future. No one could know for sure... but it was a good bet.
Some people siad he'd never be great. Others said he hung the moon.
National coverage touted his talent and possibilties.

Steve DeBerg was displaced by him over time... as the season and situation dictated.

Gary Kubiak became his perennial backup. Kubiak was content with that role.


Today... the comparisons are similar.

Young buck QB drafted. National attention. High hopes.
Orton will be displaced. I can see that clear as cool water on a hot day.
Will Orton choose to be Tebows back up? Probably not over the long haul.
Will Tebow be one of the "great ones" ? Only time will tell.

Will he get his shot here? That is a foregone conclusion.
Is now the unique time... have all the stars lined up to say it is now?

Many of us think so.

It will be interesting to see what McD and Bowlen do next.

"It is a privilige to live in interesting times"

This is how a lot of us see things...

Sorry you are on the other side of it, NorCal.

I guess we need to agree to disagree... the power is not ours anyway.

Northman
10-31-2010, 08:57 PM
What's the difference anyway?? I dont expect Denver to win another game this season, and why should I?? Let TT go.

McD is gone. Orton wont be here anyway.

I dont know if Orton will be gone but he would become the backup as he is solid backup material.

NorCalBronco7
10-31-2010, 08:58 PM
Their #1 in Yds, not scoring THATS why they are 3-5. :lol:

Actually genuis hes #1 in yards, TDs and #2 in qbr.

Dig yourself a little deeper....




Comparison...

when I was much younger...
the team traded our number one pick for the colts #1 pick...
we got John Elway.

He was the QB of the future. No one could know for sure... but it was a good bet.
Some people siad he'd never be great. Others said he hung the moon.
National coverage touted his talent and possibilties.

Steve DeBerg was displaced by him over time... as the season and situation dictated.

Gary Kubiak became his perennial backup. Kubiak was content with that role.


Today... the comparisons are similar.

Young buck QB drafted. National attention. High hopes.
Orton will be displaced. I can see that clear as cool water on a hot day.
Will Orton choose to be Tebows back up? Probably not over the long haul.
Will Tebow be one of the "great ones" ? Only time will tell.

Will he get his shot here? That is a foregone conclusion.
Is now the unique time... have all the stars lined up to say it is now?

Many of us think so.

It will be interesting to see what McD and Bowlen do next.

"It is a privilige to live in interesting times"

Again the Deberg/Elway comparsion doesnt hold weight because Deberg sucked before and when he was on the Broncos. Deberg didnt through more tds than picks when and before he was on the Broncos. However, Orton doesnt suck and is having a good season. Its reasonable to think he will get better and be better next year.

Medford Bronco
10-31-2010, 08:59 PM
McD has done this all to himself.

I shed no tears for him.

He inherited a pretty good team and made it much much worse.

Let Tebow play and see if he is an NFL QB.

NorCalBronco7
10-31-2010, 09:00 PM
Im getting tired of schooling NoCal here.

lol. Good one.

Northman
10-31-2010, 09:02 PM
Actually genuis hes #1 in yards, TDs and #2 in qbr.



Who's he? Its a team game or was that not you telling me that? :lol:

No, they are not #1 in scoring so the #1 yds means diddly. But, since you want to NOW concentrate on the QB's Rivers has playoff experience and is a proven winner in his career so i think its expected they will stay with him since he is their franchise QB. Are you now claiming that Orton is the franchise here or are you going to backpeddle again?

Northman
10-31-2010, 09:02 PM
lol. Good one.

Thanks, this is fun.

TXBRONC
10-31-2010, 09:04 PM
What's the difference anyway?? I dont expect Denver to win another game this season, and why should I?? Let TT go.

McD is gone. Orton wont be here anyway.

If the rumor is true Bowlen doesn't want to be on the hook for paying three head coaches then he might bite the bullet and keep him around but McDaniels will have a paper thin margin for error.

BroncoStud
10-31-2010, 09:04 PM
Uh yeah they do.

Carson Palmer was the #1 overall pick in 2003 and sat on the bench the entire season. Your wrong.

I'm glad you mentioned that. The Bengals then decided that John Kitna (The Orton of that time) couldn't get the team to the next level, so they released him and started Carson Palmer.

Medford Bronco
10-31-2010, 09:06 PM
I'm glad you mentioned that. The Bengals then decided that John Kitna (The Orton of that time) couldn't get the team to the next level, so they released him and started Carson Palmer.

and the Orton of the time threw 4 picks today for Dallas :shocked:

Orton has had a decent year but seems to always have a turnover at the wrong time IMO.

He is an okay QB. Not sucky not great. Average/Serviceable. Good for a great team, not a sucky team like we are now

PAINTERDAVE
10-31-2010, 09:06 PM
Wow. You are kinda like a dog with a bone.
No comparison will be exact.
every situation in life is unique unto itself.

If this situation has never EXACTLY happened... that does not mean that it will NEVER happen.

I was simply trying to use the comparison to illustrate what/why so many of us think the way we do.

I am curious...

why are you so adamant that Tebow NOT start in this throwaway season?

Just curious... 'cause none of us here has any power over it.

Apollo
10-31-2010, 09:09 PM
He is an okay QB. Not sucky not great. Average/Serviceable. Good for a great team, not a sucky team like we are now

He's the kind of guy that if we had a great team right now, you'd be comfortable saying he could manage the game and take us far. This is no knock on Orton, he's a good game manager and I hope when he leaves us he can go to a good team and show his stuff. The problem is, our team needs HELP and since whether Peyton Manning or Van Pelt starts at QB makes little to no difference at this point, we might as well go with Tebow to see what he can do...

It's not going to make a difference anyway. 2-6.

Watchthemiddle
10-31-2010, 09:13 PM
Our best bet is this....Orton needs to play the remainder of the season. Keep racking up yards. Keep showing that he CAN throw the deep ball on the money, keep showing that he CAN hit the WR down the sideline over the CB and in front of the Safety. Keep making ALL of the throws.

That way when the time comes, we can trade him for multiple draft picks to the Cowboys (because they suck worse than us) and build the team of the future around Tebow as John Fox is our HC, Del Rio is our DC, and Norv is our OC.

Northman
10-31-2010, 09:14 PM
Ill say it again, if this team was actually contending for the playoffs i would have no problem leaving Orton in the rest of the year. But, we are not very good and since Tebow is the future face of this franchise it just makes sense to put him in and allow him to take his lumps in a down year. If Tebow is worth the grain of salt that we gave up for him in the draft and a TRUE FRANCHISE guy than he would be FINE playing out the rest of the year win, lose, or draw. If we are going to lose this season, at least give the kid some games to grow from.

Medford Bronco
10-31-2010, 09:14 PM
Our best bet is this....Orton needs to play the remainder of the season. Keep racking up yards. Keep showing that he CAN throw the deep ball on the money, keep showing that he CAN hit the WR down the sideline over the CB and in front of the Safety. Keep making ALL of the throws.

That way when the time comes, we can trade him for multiple draft picks to the Cowboys (because they suck worse than us) and build the team of the future around Tebow as John Fox is our HC, Del Rio is our DC, and Norv is our OC.


What is frustrating is Orton gets lots of yards but not lots of points.

Hollow IMO. yes no running game does not help either but he has been not so great the last two weeks either.

Northman
10-31-2010, 09:15 PM
Our best bet is this....Orton needs to play the remainder of the season. Keep racking up yards. Keep showing that he CAN throw the deep ball on the money, keep showing that he CAN hit the WR down the sideline over the CB and in front of the Safety. Keep making ALL of the throws.

That way when the time comes, we can trade him for multiple draft picks to the Cowboys (because they suck worse than us) and build the team of the future around Tebow as John Fox is our HC, Del Rio is our DC, and Norv is our OC.

In theory its a great idea but Orton wont draw that kind of trade value.

Medford Bronco
10-31-2010, 09:16 PM
In theory its a great idea but Orton wont draw that kind of trade value.

he'd get a 4th maybe

Apollo
10-31-2010, 09:16 PM
If Tebow is any good, game experience + a chance to gel with the team is more valuable than draft picks for Orton.

Just my opinion.

Northman
10-31-2010, 09:17 PM
he'd get a 4th maybe

If we were lucky.

Medford Bronco
10-31-2010, 09:19 PM
If we were lucky.

WE could use some of that.

It seems like when things go good. (the td pass that got called back and was a huge momentum switcher) it all falls apart.

Medford Bronco
10-31-2010, 09:20 PM
If Tebow is any good, game experience + a chance to gel with the team is more valuable than draft picks for Orton.

Just my opinion.

We got nothing to lose right now. Play him.

Apollo
10-31-2010, 09:21 PM
We got nothing to lose right now. Play him.

Plus, at this point of the season, he's not going to be under extreme pressure to win games.

The only thing I worry about is that our offensive line will completely break his confidence.

TXBRONC
10-31-2010, 09:23 PM
What is frustrating is Orton gets lots of yards but not lots of points.

Hollow IMO. yes no running game does not help either but he has been not so great the last two weeks either.

Very hollow. :sad:

I Eat Staples
10-31-2010, 09:27 PM
So you sat in the war-rooms of 32 NFL teams?

Funny thing to say when you were the one telling me lots of teams wanted him. Are you implying you sat in the war rooms of 32 NFL teams?


Seriously man, don't even bother. This dude ranted ad nauseum all summer about getting rid of Brandon Lloyd and now the guy is one of the leading receivers in the NFL. He's as clueless as he believes McDaniels is. I think he projects it, to be honest.

Funny thing is, I posted once, maybe twice, about getting rid of Lloyd in the preseason. You've been talking about him every time I post. What's your obsession with him? You need something new to talk about now that your "McDaniels will prove you wrong" argument has lost all merit? Oh, and what about talking up Phonz all preseason and then supporting the trade? You don't even have an opinion, you just blindly follow whatever your idol does.

BroncoWave
10-31-2010, 09:29 PM
Bosco anyone who says a player will 100% suck before he has ever even had a chance to start a game doesn't know enough about football to bother discussing it with. Don't even waste your time on him.

NorCalBronco7
10-31-2010, 09:33 PM
Who's he? Its a team game or was that not you telling me that? :lol:

No, they are not #1 in scoring so the #1 yds means diddly. But, since you want to NOW concentrate on the QB's Rivers has playoff experience and is a proven winner in his career so i think its expected they will stay with him since he is their franchise QB. Are you now claiming that Orton is the franchise here or are you going to backpeddle again?

You said the Broncos situation is unique in that there has never been a Qb that has done so well on a losing team.

I brought Phillip Rivers up as an example of a Qb who is doing great (#1 in TD, Yards and 2nd in QBR) but his team is still playing bad and losing. Again the Broncos situation is not unique and thats not an excuse to start Tebow. Good job trying to derail our conversation though, you had me quit confused. ;)



Thanks, this is fun.

Isnt it?


I'm glad you mentioned that. The Bengals then decided that John Kitna (The Orton of that time) couldn't get the team to the next level, so they released him and started Carson Palmer.

Yeah, the NEXT YEAR. Again rookie qbs never start over solid veterns.


Wow. You are kinda like a dog with a bone.
No comparison will be exact.
every situation in life is unique unto itself.

If this situation has never EXACTLY happened... that does not mean that it will NEVER happen.

I was simply trying to use the comparison to illustrate what/why so many of us think the way we do.

I am curious...

why are you so adamant that Tebow NOT start in this throwaway season?

Just curious... 'cause none of us here has any power over it.



Well I would give you credit if its deserved but frankly, you hinting that STEVE DEGERG is a solid Qb amounts to jack shit. :lol: Im not trying to pull your leg, but STEVE DEBERG the years before he was a Bronco and while he was a Bronco were GARBAGE.

45tds 77ints from 78-82! What part of that yells "solid", shit not even capable!

Its not that starting a rookie over a solid vetern hasnt exactly happened, its not it never remotely happened. Period.

Honestly the reason I dont want Tebow to start is because I dont think its in the best interest of the franchise. Pretty simple, I want wants best for the Broncos.

Northman
10-31-2010, 09:35 PM
You said the Broncos situation is unique in that there has never been a Qb that has done so well on a losing team.

I brought Phillip Rivers up as an example of a Qb who is doing great (#1 in TD, Yards and 2nd in QBR) but his team is still playing bad and losing. Again the Broncos situation is not unique and thats not an excuse to start Tebow. Good job trying to derail our conversation though, you had me quit confused.


I must of missed something. Did SD draft a QB in the first round? How is their situation the same as ours? Please explain.

Watchthemiddle
10-31-2010, 09:35 PM
What is frustrating is Orton gets lots of yards but not lots of points.

Hollow IMO. yes no running game does not help either but he has been not so great the last two weeks either.

That seems to be an ongoing trend of our offense for years now...QB's and offenses that move the ball up and down the field very efficiently yet lack in PPG and struggle greatly in the red zone.

And Med, reference your other post about bad things seem to always be happening lately and we need some luck (ie, penalties calling back td's) I couldn't agree with you more.

NorCalBronco7
10-31-2010, 09:37 PM
We got nothing to lose right now. Play him.

We do have something to lose. The growth and experience for Orton.

Starting Tebow will have consequnces guys....

Medford Bronco
10-31-2010, 09:39 PM
That seems to be an ongoing trend of our offense for years now...QB's and offenses that move the ball up and down the field very efficiently yet lack in PPG and struggle greatly in the red zone.

And Med, reference your other post about bad things seem to always be happening lately and we need some luck (ie, penalties calling back td's) I couldn't agree with you more.

yards dont mean crap without points.

Just look at most times Qbs get 400 games. It comes in losses.

Balance is what is needed and that has not happened here for at least 2 years.

I am just so frustrated with this team. I did not think we were taht great this year anyways but I did not think that they would quit vs Oak and choke today vs a terrible SF team (I say terrible with with backup playing anyways)

Northman
10-31-2010, 09:39 PM
We do have something to lose. The growth and experience for Orton.

Is Orton the future of this team longterm? If not, his growth is not important.


Starting Tebow will have consequnces guys....

Which is what exactly.

Medford Bronco
10-31-2010, 09:40 PM
We do have something to lose. The growth and experience for Orton.

Starting Tebow will have consequnces guys....

what consequence, losing more games:laugh:

like Orton has done such a great job the last 3 games.


he sucked last week and was marginally better today. the strip fumble lost the game.

BroncoWave
10-31-2010, 09:40 PM
We do have something to lose. The growth and experience for Orton.

Starting Tebow will have consequnces guys....

Who cares? Orton is not our future.

TXBRONC
10-31-2010, 09:40 PM
We do have something to lose. The growth and experience for Orton.

Starting Tebow will have consequnces guys....

Just like there are consequences for starting Orton, we're 2-6 with him under center.

Watchthemiddle
10-31-2010, 09:41 PM
I must of missed something. Did SD draft a QB in the first round? How is their situation the same as ours? Please explain.

They drafted Manning as the #1 overall pick when they had Drew FREAKIN Brees.

Medford Bronco
10-31-2010, 09:41 PM
Just like there are consequences for starting Orton, we're 2-6 with him under center.

instead of being 2-14 with Tebow we will be 3-13 with Orton:lol: (sarcasm) lol

Northman
10-31-2010, 09:42 PM
They drafted Manning as the #1 overall pick when they had Drew FREAKIN Brees.

Totally missed the boat brother. NoCal was talking about this year. Did they draft a QB in the first round this year and i missed it?

NorCalBronco7
10-31-2010, 09:44 PM
Because there hasnt been a team that has a QB who has pretty stats yet are losing football games like we are. As pointed out too you (yet again) earlier our situation is not a normal one. If we were winning games then there would be no need to put Tebow in because we still have a chance at the playoffs. Thats out of the question here and serves no purpose to have Orton finish out the year.

How do you go from this ^^^



I must of missed something. Did SD draft a QB in the first round? How is their situation the same as ours? Please explain.

To this ^^^^^


The only reason I brought up Rivers and his teams lack of success dispite his stellar play was to disprove your lame attempt at calling the Tebow/Orton situation unique. Follow my friend.

TXBRONC
10-31-2010, 09:45 PM
instead of being 2-14 with Tebow we will be 3-13 with Orton:lol: (sarcasm) lol

If Tebow has the "it" factor that we think he does maybe things turn around for this team. :whoknows:

Medford Bronco
10-31-2010, 09:46 PM
If Tebow has the "it" factor that we think he does maybe things turn around for this team. :whoknows:


Heck even Brady Quinn should have played in last weeks disaster vs Oak.

NorCalBronco7
10-31-2010, 09:48 PM
Is Orton the future of this team longterm? If not, his growth is not important.

Orton will most likely start the 2011 season. He is our future for now.

Which is what exactly.


Who cares? Orton is not our future.

Again Orton will most likely start next year.


Just like there are consequences for starting Orton, we're 2-6 with him under center.

And Phillip Rivers is 3-5. The chargers should really bench him.....

Northman
10-31-2010, 09:48 PM
How do you go from this ^^^




To this ^^^^^


The only reason I brought up Rivers and his teams lack of success dispite his stellar play was to disprove your lame attempt at calling the Tebow/Orton situation unique. Follow my friend.


It is unique. SD has a franchise QB in place. What is so hard to figure out here? Are you on drugs? Seriously.

Why dont you answer my question from a few posts ago? How is it going to hurt getting Tebow experience in a down year?

Northman
10-31-2010, 09:51 PM
Again Orton will most likely start next year.



And Phillip Rivers is 3-5. The chargers should really bench him.....

And if he does great, but why does he need to continue to play the rest of the year THIS YEAR? Wouldnt the smart move get the young QB some playing time and allow Orton to study the playbook on the sideline since the games mean nothing from here on out? And of course, thats a big assumption that Orton will start next year as we have no idea what direction McD will go.

BroncoWave
10-31-2010, 09:51 PM
Again Orton will most likely start next year.



And Phillip Rivers is 3-5. The chargers should really bench him.....

Are you honestly trying to say that Orton has more of a future with this franchise than Tebow? If you really believe that then there is no reason to further discuss this matter with you.

NorCalBronco7
10-31-2010, 09:51 PM
If Tebow has the "it" factor that we think he does maybe things turn around for this team. :whoknows:

Oh yeah the "it" factor. Heard thats going around. What the **** is that again?

:lol:


You guys crap me up with your reasoning on the Orton/Tebow issue. Its been great. Ill get back to you guys later.

Northman
10-31-2010, 09:52 PM
Are you honestly trying to say that Orton has more of a future with this franchise than Tebow? If you really believe that then there is no reason to further discuss this matter with you.

Yea, this is some scary stuff. This guy is whacked. lmao

PAINTERDAVE
10-31-2010, 09:52 PM
You said the Broncos situation is unique in that there has never been a Qb that has done so well on a losing team.

I brought Phillip Rivers up as an example of a Qb who is doing great (#1 in TD, Yards and 2nd in QBR) but his team is still playing bad and losing. Again the Broncos situation is not unique and thats not an excuse to start Tebow. Good job trying to derail our conversation though, you had me quit confused. ;)




Isnt it?



Yeah, the NEXT YEAR. Again rookie qbs never start over solid veterns.





Well I would give you credit if its deserved but frankly, you hinting that STEVE DEGERG is a solid Qb amounts to jack shit. :lol: Im not trying to pull your leg, but STEVE DEBERG the years before he was a Bronco and while he was a Bronco were GARBAGE.

45tds 77ints from 78-82! What part of that yells "solid", shit not even capable!

Its not that starting a rookie over a solid vetern hasnt exactly happened, its not it never remotely happened. Period.

Honestly the reason I dont want Tebow to start is because I dont think its in the best interest of the franchise. Pretty simple, I want wants best for the Broncos.I accept that what you want is the best for the Broncos.
We just disagree about what is coming.

It is not you or I who drafted Tebow. Or set up this scenario.

I accept that it is happening... I just can't see Orton being here for long.

Since this situation is here.. I think they would be smart to take advantage of it...

Watchthemiddle
10-31-2010, 09:52 PM
what consequence, losing more games:laugh:

like Orton has done such a great job the last 3 games.


he sucked last week and was marginally better today. the strip fumble lost the game.

The strip fumble, the defenses ability or inability to stop the run for the 3rd straight game (3 straight 100 yard rushers), untimely stupid penalties, no run game for an 8th straight game, and another 4th quarter melt down with a lead by the defense lost the game.

Northman
10-31-2010, 09:53 PM
Oh yeah the "it" factor. Heard thats going around. What the **** is that again?

:lol:


You guys crap me up with your reasoning on the Orton/Tebow issue. Its been great. Ill get back to you guys later.


Dont leave now, i want some answers.

Medford Bronco
10-31-2010, 09:53 PM
Play him next game or after getting to 2-7. Why not. See if he is NFL material

we already know that Orton is an slightly above average QB at best

lol at consequenses. Maybe getting a better draft pick lol

who cares this season is toast now.


even Oakland is a much better team than we are now Oakland.

the only teams in the NFL that might suck more than us
are

Cleveland
Carolina
Buffalo and thats it.

Shazam!
10-31-2010, 09:55 PM
the only teams in the NFL that might suck more than us
are

Cleveland
Carolina
Buffalo and thats it.

Dallas.

...but I give Buff and Cle credit. They still fight and play to win. Cle beat NE and Buff nearly beat KC today.

PAINTERDAVE
10-31-2010, 09:55 PM
I really thought this would happen this season...

only I figured it would be a winning season...
and Orton with abroken leg...
and Tebow coming in.

This scenario really never crossed my mind until the Raiders loss.

NorCalBronco7
10-31-2010, 09:55 PM
It is unique. SD has a franchise QB in place. What is so hard to figure out here? Are you on drugs? Seriously.

Why dont you answer my question from a few posts ago? How is it going to hurt getting Tebow experience in a down year?

Oh I get where your getting at,

well, Rivers wasnt a ROOKIE, but rather a qb who sat on the bench and developed. HUGE difference.

Medford Bronco
10-31-2010, 09:56 PM
Dallas.

I forgot them. They are with us in suckitude.

Northman
10-31-2010, 09:58 PM
Oh I get where your getting at,

well, Rivers wasnt a ROOKIES, but rather a qb who sat on the bench and developed. HUGE difference.

And Peyton Manning started his rookie year and won a SB and Rivers hasnt. See? It means nothing to have Tebow start the rest of the year when we arent competing for anything. If McD wants to reload next year with Orton leading the way again than im fine with that but for now it makes no sense to keep Orton in for a losing cause. You cant tell me that if Orton sits for the rest of the year that he will regress as a QB. Its just not logical.

TXBRONC
10-31-2010, 10:00 PM
Oh yeah the "it" factor. Heard thats going around. What the **** is that again?

:lol:


You guys crap me up with your reasoning on the Orton/Tebow issue. Its been great. Ill get back to you guys later.

What is the "it' factor? It's the very thing Orton doesn't have that's why we're 2-6.

Now I've tried to be civil but if all you can come with is to be insulting then I have better things to do.

Medford Bronco
10-31-2010, 10:01 PM
And Peyton Manning started his rookie year and won a SB and Rivers hasnt. See? It means nothing to have Tebow start the rest of the year when we arent competing for anything. If McD wants to reload next year with Orton leading the way again than im fine with that but for now it makes no sense to keep Orton in for a losing cause. You cant tell me that if Orton sits for the rest of the year that he will regress as a QB. Its just not logical.

You mean he wont get stripped running the ball or throw a pick 6 on the first play of the game.

Look Orton has contributed to the last 2 debacles just as much as anyone.

He has had little help but leaders lead their team. he could have lead Denver to a lead tied 10-10 and not coughed the ball up.

Some people give this guy way too much credit for being an okay QB.

we have no opinion of Tebow. Play him to see. He might surprise some here. Who knows. You cant win from the bench right

Northman
10-31-2010, 10:05 PM
You mean he wont get stripped running the ball or throw a pick 6 on the first play of the game.

Look Orton has contributed to the last 2 debacles just as much as anyone.

He has had little help but leaders lead their team. he could have lead Denver to a lead tied 10-10 and not coughed the ball up.

Some people give this guy way too much credit for being an okay QB.

we have no opinion of Tebow. Play him to see. He might surprise some here. Who knows. You cant win from the bench right


Im not going to crash down on Orton for the turnovers. Every QB makes them even Elway had some doozies. But i agree that Orton is not the kind of QB who will take charge and make the kind of plays that "elite" Qb's tend to make in crunch time. He's rarely proven he can do it without a lot more help than the "elite" guys.

Medford Bronco
10-31-2010, 10:06 PM
Im not going to crash down on Orton for the turnovers. Every QB makes them even Elway had some doozies. But i agree that Orton is not the kind of QB who will take charge and make the kind of plays that "elite" Qb's tend to make in crunch time. He's rarely proven he can do it without a lot more help than the "elite" guys.

I agree, he is okay but some think he is a top 5 QB here or they come off as he is.

I dont hate the guy but he is not the answer long term that is for sure.

Northman
10-31-2010, 10:08 PM
I agree, he is okay but some think he is a top 5 QB here or they come off as he is.

I dont hate the guy but he is not the answer long term that is for sure.


And unfortuantely that is the guys who only look at numbers.

Medford Bronco
10-31-2010, 10:10 PM
And unfortuantely that is the guys who only look at numbers.

Numbers are for baseball.

Jay Cutler has a better QB rating in his career than Elway
and so does Brian Griese.

Numbers suck in football. Wins and clutch play are what counts.

Watchthemiddle
10-31-2010, 10:13 PM
I agree, he is okay but some think he is a top 5 QB here or they come off as he is.

I dont hate the guy but he is not the answer long term that is for sure.

I like Orton, I like Tebow. I was ecstatic when we drafted him. I know Orton is not the long term Qb here, but I am also realistic enough to see that he is not the problem this season and Tebow is not the answer this season.

Everytime Tebow gets in the game I am on my feet. I am not ready to throw the season away with 5 divisional games left and 8 total overall.

If this losing trend continues down the road 3-4 more games, get back to me..but for right now I am not ready for Tebow time.

Medford Bronco
10-31-2010, 10:14 PM
I like Orton, I like Tebow. I was ecstatic when we drafted him. I know Orton is not the long term Qb here, but I am also realistic enough to see that he is not the problem this season and Tebow is not the answer this season.

Everytime Tebow gets in the game I am on my feet. I am not ready to throw the season away with 5 divisional games left and 8 total overall.

If this losing trend continues down the road 3-4 more games, get back to me..but for right now I am not ready for Tebow time.

one more loss for me and than I want to see Tebow.

heck even Quinn should get some time if we are like 2-10

Northman
10-31-2010, 10:18 PM
one more loss for me and than I want to see Tebow.

heck even Quinn should get some time if we are like 2-10

I would rather see Tebow now after the bye because frankly we are not going to win this division. We just are not healthy enough or good enough to beat of rivals at least not with any regularity. McD should use the bye week to prepare Tebow the best he can and let the kid go through some growing pains this year.

PAINTERDAVE
10-31-2010, 10:28 PM
I would rather see Tebow now after the bye because frankly we are not going to win this division. We just are not healthy enough or good enough to beat of rivals at least not with any regularity. McD should use the bye week to prepare Tebow the best he can and let the kid go through some growing pains this year.

Agreed. It is such a huge opportuntity to prepare Tebow over the next two weeks.

I wont say it is critical or crucial...
but it would be wasted time that could really make a difference in his preparedness.

It makes no sense to waste the bye period and another week...

and THEN begin to get Tebow ready on a short week before the next game..

chazoe60
10-31-2010, 10:35 PM
Orton is not the kind of QB you build a team around, and right now the concern of the Denver Broncos franchise has to be how to build a winner for the future. This season is lost, we need to be concerned about the future, and Orton is not a part of that future.

Watchthemiddle
10-31-2010, 10:37 PM
http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/3541/release15shirtstore.jpg

Just for you PAINTERDAVE..:laugh:

PAINTERDAVE
11-01-2010, 12:30 AM
This is the guy you all want to keep on losing with instead of giving Tebow some experience?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ig1NJGf4iGk

PAINTERDAVE
11-01-2010, 12:31 AM
http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/3541/release15shirtstore.jpg

Just for you PAINTERDAVE..:laugh:

Thanks....

silkamilkamonico
11-01-2010, 12:45 AM
I would rather see Tebow now after the bye because frankly we are not going to win this division. We just are not healthy enough or good enough to beat of rivals at least not with any regularity. McD should use the bye week to prepare Tebow the best he can and let the kid go through some growing pains this year.

I agree with everything. I am not a fan of QB Tebow at all, but Denver might as well go in that direction to see where it points. I also think if Denver somehow miraculously makes their way back in the playoff hunt, it's only going to be because of inept play by the other divisional teams.

Denver, aside from SD who I will just argue isn't finishing games, looks to be the only team in the AFCWest on a downward spiral. Best case scenario is Tebow comes in and provides a spark, or at least something to be hopeful about.

Northman
11-01-2010, 12:47 AM
I agree with everything. I am not a fan of QB Tebow at all, but Denver might as well go in that direction to see where it points. I also think if Denver somehow miraculously makes their way back in the playoff hunt, it's only going to be because of inept play by the other divisional teams.

Denver, aside from SD who I will just argue isn't finishing games, looks to be the only team in the AFCWest on a downward spiral. Best case scenario is Tebow comes in and provides a spark, or at least something to be hopeful about.

I agree. We might see a pleasant surprise out of him. Its not likely but you never know.

beatpharm
11-01-2010, 02:45 AM
Here goes my first post. I just wanted to get in this discussion about rookies NEVER starting over "proven" veterans. Do Super Bowl Wins and appearances count as proven? I think any of us would take the veterans in the following scenario over Kyle Orton.

1. Eric Zeier over Vinny Testaverde
2. Vince Young over Kerry Collins
3. Eli Manning over Kurt Warner

beatpharm
11-01-2010, 03:05 AM
It happened this year with Max Hall over Derek Anderson & Clausen over Matt Moore. I wonder if I give this a little more thought how many more examples I can come up with. Brian Griese? Shaun King? Browning Nagle? I say give TT a chance! Have Orton fake an injury if that is what it takes...

Watchthemiddle
11-01-2010, 03:20 AM
It happened this year with Max Hall over Derek Anderson & Clausen over Matt Moore. I wonder if I give this a little more thought how many more examples I can come up with. Brian Griese? Shaun King? Browning Nagle? I say give TT a chance! Have Orton fake an injury if that is what it takes...

But.....

How well was the veterans playing before they got replaced by the rookie?

Tned
11-01-2010, 03:51 AM
and the Orton of the time threw 4 picks today for Dallas :shocked:

Orton has had a decent year but seems to always have a turnover at the wrong time IMO.

He is an okay QB. Not sucky not great. Average/Serviceable. Good for a great team, not a sucky team like we are now

This is good post.

Orton has played the best football of his career, and if you 'just' look at the stats out of context, you can start making the 'elite' comment as many have done in the last few weeks. However, the fact the Broncos are passing 40-55times a game inflate the passing yards.

If we had a killer defense and the Broncos only had to score 14-21 points a game to win, then Orton would probably be just fine. However, since the team is not a juggernaut all around, Orton's short comings show up every time we are behind and need him to march the team down for a score.

Canmore
11-01-2010, 03:55 AM
It happened this year with Max Hall over Derek Anderson & Clausen over Matt Moore. I wonder if I give this a little more thought how many more examples I can come up with. Brian Griese? Shaun King? Browning Nagle? I say give TT a chance! Have Orton fake an injury if that is what it takes...

Have Orton fake an injury??? Tebow is not ready. IMHO Orton gives us the best chance to win. This season we live with Orton.

BroncoStud
11-01-2010, 04:05 AM
Have Orton fake an injury??? Tebow is not ready. IMHO Orton gives us the best chance to win. This season we live with Orton.

How do you know Tebow isn't ready? Are you at the practices? And what is Orton winning? 4-14 isn't winning much... I just don't get it... Why would we stubbornly start Orton when the Broncos aren't a playoff team? Tebow could get valuable reps for the next offseason. At least that way Denver would KNOW if Tebow is worth a crap or not.

Dzone
11-01-2010, 04:07 AM
Its a tough decision either way. I like Orton, but he is sort of one dimensional. But then again, Drew Brees is not exactly michael vick. Orton could easily be a qb on a championship team. Lesser quarterbacks have played in the super bowl.
But when we are talking Tebow, wow...I am and always have been a huge fan. He brings so much more for a defense to have to prepare for. Would it be wrong to put him in there behind that porous OL? Tebow may have to hold the ball longer since he doesnt have Ortons decision making, yet. At this point, all we can do is guess. The only way we are ever going to know how good he could be is if he plays. Is the time right for him? Who knows.

spikerman
11-01-2010, 05:54 AM
This season we live with Orton. The Broncos are on life support at best.

TimTebow15MVP
11-01-2010, 06:17 AM
its not time to start tebow. this is a business decision. ortons trade value goes up n up the more he plays well. tebows time will come late in the year but we have to keep boosting ortons stats so we can get that 2nd round pick

jhildebrand
11-01-2010, 09:46 AM
I am at the point that this season is lost (IMHO).

I am not sure that McD's future is guaranteed here i.e. 5-11 or 4-12 season he could be finished unless Tebow looks phenomenal.

That said, I don't think McD brings Tebow in for the Chiefs following the bye. The Broncos are going to take one last stab at it with Orton. McD can't afford to lose the entire locker room just yet.

Should the Chiefs win and especially if they win big, you will have seen the last of Orton.

For me, I want Tebow to get as much time as possible this season so we aren't wasting another season on his learning curve.

chazoe60
11-01-2010, 10:14 AM
The Orton apologists are maddening. I keep hearing all these excuses for this guy but when I watch the game my eyes do not lie.

Orton constantly leads open WRs to the ground with weak and slightly inaccurate passes. He did it to Lloyd on an out route yesterday that, had he been hit in stride, he could have went out of bounds and saved us a timeout. That is just one example, he does it all the time.

Orton constantly throws short of the first down on third down, or he dies the exact oposite and throws deep to a covered WR on a fly route on third and two. This is not smart playcalling or smart execution either one.

Orton's lack of mobility is disgusting to watch to be honest. That lame ass dive two yards short of the first down yesterday was downright comical if I wasn't a Bronco fan. Also, his dive at the feet of the defense on third down, which happens all the time BTW, was an inexcusable example of quitting.

I also have very little confidence in his ability to lead people. Us looks sluggish and when he does try to fire people up it looks insincere and unbelievable. When he screws up it's "awe shucks" and he hangs his head and meanders back to the sidelines. I don't see his teammates being inspired by him whatsoever.

And last but certainly not least, Kyle Orton is absolutely pathetic in big spots of close games. He wilts under pressure like no other QB I have witnessed. How many times does this have to happen before people get fed up with his mediocrity.

The Raider game. Right when the team needs a leader, after he already threw a pick six and the offense just gave he ball back tomOak for another easy score, what does the "leader" of this team do? He fumbles the ball right back to Oak and does his typical head hang back to the bench.

The jets game. We had so many chances to win that game. The one game in which we could have just used that statistically good Orton and we would have won against a big time opponent and he doesn't bother to show up. He was woefully inaccurate in that game. Funny, the one game we get the running game going, because Rex set up to stop the pass most game, is Orton's worst statistical game.

Finally, the 49ers game. A classic Orton game. Good in the middle, horrible on both ends. Great stats surrounded by an inability to score points and ended with a chance to win being flubbed up. If his last game didn't convince you that Orton is not the kind of player you build a team around then I can not help you.

Orton is definitely not our biggest problem. Orton is serviceable. Orton could even be a winner, if he was on a team with a too ten Defense and a top ten running game, but we have neither. While Orton is not our biggest problem, he certainly is part of the problem and he sure as Hell is not the solution.

horsepig
11-01-2010, 10:52 AM
I agree with a lot of this. I'm not blaming Orton for anything. It's just that we have a 1'st round QB who was probably the biggest msm stir since the Elway deal sitting on the bench.

This is not 1975, many rooks are coming in and playing very well. Lets just see if Tebow can bring that something undefinable to the pro game. I think he can and will, but he's gonna make a lot of mistakes along the way. I say get him started now (or maybe after the KC game, if we get blown up again) when his learning curve won't really cost anything except maybe more bonus money for a higher pick next year.

slim
11-01-2010, 11:03 AM
When the Chiefs beat us, it will be Tebow time (or at least it should be).

I Eat Staples
11-01-2010, 11:11 AM
Bosco anyone who says a player will 100% suck before he has ever even had a chance to start a game doesn't know enough about football to bother discussing it with. Don't even waste your time on him.

I never said he would 100% suck. I apologize for not thinking everything the Broncos do will work out in the best possible way, I know how badly that offends you, but don't put words in my mouth. I think there's a very high chance Tebow won't be able to play QB in the NFL. You must think there's a very high chance he will succeed. We disagree, simple as that. I had no idea that everyone who has a different opinion than you doesn't know enough about football to discuss it.

I'm sure you knew exactly what you were talking about when you were preaching your McD support, right? But yeah, you know more about football than me, that's for sure. :rolleyes:

Broncolingus
11-01-2010, 11:11 AM
...(...the KC game, if we get blown up again)...

Those two ought to occur at the same time again this year methinks...

jhildebrand
11-01-2010, 12:17 PM
The Orton apologists are maddening. I keep hearing all these excuses for this guy but when I watch the game my eyes do not lie.

Orton constantly leads open WRs to the ground with weak and slightly inaccurate passes. He did it to Lloyd on an out route yesterday that, had he been hit in stride, he could have went out of bounds and saved us a timeout. That is just one example, he does it all the time.

Orton constantly throws short of the first down on third down, or he dies the exact oposite and throws deep to a covered WR on a fly route on third and two. This is not smart playcalling or smart execution either one.

Orton's lack of mobility is disgusting to watch to be honest. That lame ass dive two yards short of the first down yesterday was downright comical if I wasn't a Bronco fan. Also, his dive at the feet of the defense on third down, which happens all the time BTW, was an inexcusable example of quitting.

I also have very little confidence in his ability to lead people. Us looks sluggish and when he does try to fire people up it looks insincere and unbelievable. When he screws up it's "awe shucks" and he hangs his head and meanders back to the sidelines. I don't see his teammates being inspired by him whatsoever.

And last but certainly not least, Kyle Orton is absolutely pathetic in big spots of close games. He wilts under pressure like no other QB I have witnessed. How many times does this have to happen before people get fed up with his mediocrity.

The Raider game. Right when the team needs a leader, after he already threw a pick six and the offense just gave he ball back tomOak for another easy score, what does the "leader" of this team do? He fumbles the ball right back to Oak and does his typical head hang back to the bench.

The jets game. We had so many chances to win that game. The one game in which we could have just used that statistically good Orton and we would have won against a big time opponent and he doesn't bother to show up. He was woefully inaccurate in that game. Funny, the one game we get the running game going, because Rex set up to stop the pass most game, is Orton's worst statistical game.

Finally, the 49ers game. A classic Orton game. Good in the middle, horrible on both ends. Great stats surrounded by an inability to score points and ended with a chance to win being flubbed up. If his last game didn't convince you that Orton is not the kind of player you build a team around then I can not help you.

Orton is definitely not our biggest problem. Orton is serviceable. Orton could even be a winner, if he was on a team with a too ten Defense and a top ten running game, but we have neither. While Orton is not our biggest problem, he certainly is part of the problem and he sure as Hell is not the solution.

Sounds like the real problem is the guy who continues to trot Orton out on the field, the same guy who trotted him out on the field after a nasty hit on an unblocked defender, the guy who extended Orton, the guy who traded for Orton.

Orton isn't the biggest problem on this team not even close to it. Changing him might not change anything at all.

I have argued since last season that this team is fundamentally flawed. Myself and others were run off from other forums and flamed by many (maybe even you, chazoe :huh: J/K) for speaking out against the mighty McD. Most of us have been the same ever since.

This team is fatally flawed in the following ways:
Cant run and the sytem doesn't rely on it to any degree any way even if we could. The Chiefs are 5-2 right now for one reason-THEY CAN RUN. That is the same reason you wont see a collapse from them like ours.

We can't stop the run!

So, at the end of the day, Orton isn't a problem. If this team could win with Plummer this team should be able to win with Orton.

Finally, I don't find it fair to say Orton cant compete in tight spots. He did valliantly against NE last year, against Dallas last year, against TN this year. He ca do it. The problem is this team is too old on D, cant score in the first quarter, and too one dimensional.

I would rather talk about wholesale changes that could have a true impact than meaningless changes that might do nothing if not make us worse!

Dzone
11-01-2010, 01:08 PM
Anyone remember the shannahan days when the first 15 plays of every game were scripted? They pretty much scored all the time in the first quarter. This team is dreadful in the first quarter

BroncoStud
11-01-2010, 01:22 PM
Anyone remember the shannahan days when the first 15 plays of every game were scripted? They pretty much scored all the time in the first quarter. This team is dreadful in the first quarter

Shanahan was never handcuffed with such lack of athleticism at the QB position, even Griese could do a lot more.

TXBRONC
11-01-2010, 04:25 PM
Have Orton fake an injury??? Tebow is not ready. IMHO Orton gives us the best chance to win. This season we live with Orton.

I would agree with you that Orton gives us the best chance to win if wasn't for two things. First, we're are 2-6 with Orton at the helm and second we've had three games so far this year where we could have tied or won the game on the last drive of the game and all three times it's with a turnover two picks and a fumble. To be fair I know fumble wasn't Orton's fault. I haven't beat him over the head with interceptions either but at the same time in crunch he's got to find ways to either win a game in do or die situations.

arapaho2
11-01-2010, 04:32 PM
I would agree with you that Orton gives us the best chance to win if wasn't for two things. First, we're are 2-6 with Orton at the helm and second we've had three games so far this year where we could have tied or won the game on the last drive of the game and all three times it's with a turnover two picks and a fumble. To be fair I know fumble wasn't Orton's fault. I haven't beat him over the head with interceptions either but at the same time in crunch he's got to find ways to either win a game in do or die situations.


i've supported orton this season because he has been throwing deeper

but again one of my main gripes last season other than the shallow field was when the pressure was on...he wilted

TXBRONC
11-01-2010, 04:38 PM
i've supported orton this season because he has been throwing deeper

but again one of my main gripes last season other than the shallow field was when the pressure was on...he wilted

Same I support him because he is Denver's starting quarterback and I give him credit for his good play. But even with big numbers he's not producing what matters the most wins.

NorCalBronco7
11-01-2010, 08:09 PM
Here goes my first post. I just wanted to get in this discussion about rookies NEVER starting over "proven" veterans. Do Super Bowl Wins and appearances count as proven? I think any of us would take the veterans in the following scenario over Kyle Orton.

1. Eric Zeier over Vinny Testaverde
2. Vince Young over Kerry Collins
3. Eli Manning over Kurt Warner



Testaverde the year before rookie Zier become the starting Qb his rookie year, had 16tds, 18ints and and 55 comp %. He wasnt a proven player at that point in his career, infact Vinnt through more picks than ints six of his last eight season the year Zier became Qb. This year, Orton is a much better Qb than Vinny was at that stage in his career.

After Collins was benched by the Oakland Raiders late in the 05 season, he was cut and picked by the Titans. Collins started the fist 3 games losing them all throwing 6 picks and 1 td. He was then bench in favor of Young because of his poor play. Collins was a total mess and this point in his career and was far from a solid player.

Before Warner got benched in favor of Eli in 2004, he had 10 tds and 16 ints over the 3 previous injury ridden seasons. Warner is a decorated future HOF, but at that time in his career many experts thought he was over and washed up. Again, Warner was far from a solid player at that point in his career.

NorCalBronco7
11-01-2010, 08:24 PM
It happened this year with Max Hall over Derek Anderson & Clausen over Matt Moore. I wonder if I give this a little more thought how many more examples I can come up with. Brian Griese? Shaun King? Browning Nagle? I say give TT a chance! Have Orton fake an injury if that is what it takes...

Anderson had one good season years ago. Hes been terrible for a long time.

Im not even going to humor you in explaining why Matt Moore isnt a solid player.

The rest of the guys you list just flat out suck. I mean Browning Nagle?!?! Surely your joking, right?

I asked for players that were solid at the time they got bench. These guys have about 2-3 good season put together.

Shazam!
11-01-2010, 08:27 PM
With the way things are looking, may as well give all the rookies starting time and see what we have. This season is over in October.

TXBRONC
11-02-2010, 05:19 AM
With the way things are looking, may as well give all the rookies starting time and see what we have. This season is over in October.

For all intents and purposes we are already elimenated from playoff contention, however, mathematically we're not eliminated just yet. So maybe waiting until that happens would be for the best. Like I said I'm not that far away from those of you saying put him after the break.