How much of a mistake was it to go into the season with two rookie offensive linemen?

[Jake Klug]

Just curious to know if anyone else thinks this was a huge mistake that could have tipped the season.

[Lonestar]

Who thinks we should have kept casey and hamilton instead.

For that matter playing clady as a rookie.

Got to start at sometime why not as a rookie getting exprience in a rebuilding year
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[jhildebrand]

I don't have a problem with it. SD in their 14-2 year started two rookies side by side on the Ol and next to a second year C.

I have no problem with it.

[NorCalBronco7]

When the Broncos are changing run blocking schemes then you'd expect new guys up front.

I think starting two rookie olineman has contributed to the Broncos lack of success in the running game.

[G_Money]

If the rookies are good, I don't see the issue. Clady was a flat-out stud, and Harris the other tackle had never really played before either (though he'd had a year to adjust to the system). Both guys were awesome, in a harder scheme to understand and master.

Our problem is our current blocking scheme is apparently drawn with crayon by a dyslexic 3rd grader, and the rookies we're starting are not able to execute it to positive effect on the field.

I don't know if that's because they're just not talented or powerful enough, or if the scheme itself is just a joke.

It's not the ballet that the ZBS was, where everybody had to know where to be at all times, when to run to the next level, when to cutblock, etc.

It SHOULD be a relatively simple thing, but it's proving not to be. I wanted Walton and I got him. I haven't seen a thing from him that says "quality starter" just yet. Having two rookies shouldering the load is part of the problem, for sure.

The line being injured is not helping, but simple injury shouldn't be enough to cause us to be THIS bad at run-blocking. Man up, open a hole - only we can't. We didn't have the depth behind our guys to withstand these injuries, and I still think that the scheme we're running now is poorly designed, poorly implemented, and is a disadvantage to some talented players and causes them to perform below their optimum output.

I'm decidedly unimpressed, and want a new OL coach STAT. I don't think it's all on the rooks.

~G

[rcsodak]

OH GOODY! Another 2nd guessing thread.
I bet McD wishes the Oline was set with young ProBowlers. But it wasnt. Injured, subpar and old.
How many were complaining in preseason and before?
Thers'a reason for the monilers 'hindsight is 20_20', and the one I really like......'armchair/monday morning QB'.

I once watched a heart surgery...... Guess I should put Heart Surgeon on my resume. :lol:
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[slim]

OH GOODY! Another 2nd guessing thread.
I bet McD wishes the Oline was set with young ProBowlers. But it wasnt. Injured, subpar and old.
How many were complaining in preseason and before?
Thers'a reason for the monilers 'hindsight is 20_20', and the one I really like......'armchair/monday morning QB'.

I once watched a heart surgery...... Guess I should put Heart Surgeon on my resume. :lol:
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The OL was the stregnth of the team when McD took over. Three of which were very young. Clady, Harris and Kuper. None of them are playing worth a damn now.

[G_Money]

The OL was the stregnth of the team when McD took over. Three of which were very young. Clady, Harris and Kuper. None of them are playing worth a damn now.

That's why I won't blame it on the rooks. They may not be the right guys for the job but Clady is an All-Pro and Pro-Bowler, Harris has shown Pro-Bowl level talent, and Kuper is very good. ALL of them are now bad.

Maybe that's just injuries, but I remember Kuper breaking his hand and playing the rest of the season without missing a beat. *shrugs* It's just odd that even our talented linemen look like dogs right now. They are injured, yes, but ask Stink and his 26 knee surgeries how relative the term "injury" is for an OL.

~G

[Bosco]

I don't have a problem with it. SD in their 14-2 year started two rookies side by side on the Ol and next to a second year C.

I have no problem with it.

Especially considering ours were (at least to start with, in Beadles case) interior linemen, who generally have little trouble starting from day one. That hasn't been the case here, but those things happen.

It's also worth mentioning that the plan wasn't to let them blindly start the season. Walton had to beat out Dustin Fry and we pursued Mawae. Beadles had competition from Stanley Daniels, Russ Hochstein and Seth Olsen until he had to move out to tackle, plus we tried to sign Rex Hadnot in the offseason.

[Bosco]

That's why I won't blame it on the rooks. They may not be the right guys for the job but Clady is an All-Pro and Pro-Bowler, Harris has shown Pro-Bowl level talent, and Kuper is very good. ALL of them are now bad.~G Clady is still clearly not 100% from his knee injury. Harris is still recovering from that preseason injury and isn't game ready yet. Even Kuper was hurt in week 1.

I'd almost swear someone placed a voodoo curse being on our offensive line.

[Lonestar]

When the Broncos are changing run blocking schemes then you'd expect new guys up front.

I think starting two rookie olineman has contributed to the Broncos lack of success in the running game.

Actually the poorness of the game is directly atributed to lack of having the possible starters available to practice all TC and most of preseason.

Since most of the kiddies that came in were from a spread offense so they knew how to pass block. But clady harris and kuper all missed the better part of the year with beadle filling in at every spot on the oline except OC. Hard to learn one spot that way.

Also none of the RBs were really ready to practice either.

During the season they are getting the game paln installed and do no have the time to finesse the run game.

With the bye coming up I expect them to get much better barring more injuries after the bye with players getting some rest for the week.

Frankly I was not expecting the oline play to be worth a crap till after the bye anyway with rookie and. The other three players coming off suregery.

I think next year they may be special but then we will most likely looking for a replacement for either ORT harris or if Zane takes his spot then OLG.
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[Lonestar]

The OL was the stregnth of the team when McD took over. Three of which were very young. Clady, Harris and Kuper. None of them are playing worth a damn now.

All three of which had off season suregery

Harris has coninued to play in less than 50% of the games he has been on the roster for.

I think he is toast after this year.
Having a part time OT watching the FQB blind side down the road is not going to cut it.

As for kuper I never saw all the much out of him.

Clady is clearly not yet back to 100% and frankly not sure he can habdle PBS either.at times He looked weak blocking one on one last year in the running game as for pass blocking he has been great.
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[nevcraw]

OH GOODY! Another 2nd guessing thread.
I bet McD wishes the Oline was set with young ProBowlers. But it wasnt. Injured, subpar and old.
How many were complaining in preseason and before?
Thers'a reason for the monilers 'hindsight is 20_20', and the one I really like......'armchair/monday morning QB'.

I once watched a heart surgery...... Guess I should put Heart Surgeon on my resume. :lol:
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Interesting that you have 5K + posts in a football fan forum website while you are now openly showing disdain for the point of fan website. seems like a fruitless endeavor, don't ya think?? And not that I am going to do the research but I have my doubts you went through all 5K without sharing an opinion or speculating or making some sort of judgement.
shouldn't be afraid to question comrade it's a natural thing in a free society.

Meanwhile ---
the running game went from the best running system in the business over the last 15 years to the worst.. the line play deserves second guessing. Actually it demands second guessing.
Expecially after the head coach patted himself on the back for switching the scheme and claiming the running game was "sorta his thing". what a joke.

[Lonestar]

OH GOODY! Another 2nd guessing thread.
I bet McD wishes the Oline was set with young ProBowlers. But it wasnt. Injured, subpar and old.
How many were complaining in preseason and before?
Thers'a reason for the monilers 'hindsight is 20_20', and the one I really like......'armchair/monday morning QB'.

I once watched a heart surgery...... Guess I should put Heart Surgeon on my resume. :lol:
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Just make sure you stay in a Holiday Inn Express the night before all cardiac procedures.
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[jhildebrand]

Truth be told, I would be more willing to buy the "rebuilding" excuse (that's what it is) if we were starting more rookies in places that matter. I would also be more forgiving with regard to W/L record and even accept some blowout losses.

However, when we give away picks like candy at a 4th of July parade (see Maroney for example) in exchange for FA's and considering 9 of 11 of the D starters are well over 30+ I expect to win.

Give me the youth movement of my sig and I will have no complaints.

[turftoad]

More excuses than a porcupine has quills.

[Jake Klug]

More excuses than a porcupine has quills.

Yeah, no kidding.

[D1g1tal j1m]

I think starting a rookie at center (with no veteran backup to lean on) on a young line has set us back. The C has to make line calls and blocking schemes and get everyone on the same page and for Walt to do it without the benefit of a vet to lean on has caused issues.

[Softskull]

The Oline has underperformed by anyone’s standard. We are dead last in rushing in the NFL and by a substantial margin. We've played some of the worst rushing defenses (Oak Ind Jac) and still have had our butts handed to us. We're not the only team to have an inexperienced/injured Oline but we're absolutely pathetic right now. As GMoney said, this is an easier system then we've had in the past. I don't think the rookies are the major reason for our ineptitude.

Most rookies start off strong in the beginning of their initial year then start to fade by around games 10 or 11. Our youngin's should be peaking about now .

Finally, although I like that we have younger bigger Olinemen, Casey seems to be doing quite well for the top NFL rushing team (also with fewest sacks).

[nevcraw]

Especially considering ours were (at least to start with, in Beadles case) interior linemen, who generally have little trouble starting from day one. That hasn't been the case here, but those things happen.

It's also worth mentioning that the plan wasn't to let them blindly start the season. Walton had to beat out Dustin Fry and we pursued Mawae. Beadles had competition from Stanley Daniels, Russ Hochstein and Seth Olsen until he had to move out to tackle, plus we tried to sign Rex Hadnot in the offseason.

No offense Bosco but not sure they really had a plan and have to disagree in the statement "we pursued Mawae". he was practicallly begging to find a team and and in no way fit the sheme or the youth movement in Denver. At best there were only rumors of some mutual interest but that's it..
Fry is for all intensive purposes a journeyman Camp fodder player -- not exactly competition.

[Softskull]

I think starting a rookie at center (with no veteran backup to lean on) on a young line has set us back. The C has to make line calls and blocking schemes and get everyone on the same page and for Walt to do it without the benefit of a vet to lean on has caused issues.

We had the same issues last year with a probowl veterans. Both of our cast offs have landed starting positions elsewhere without all the problems they were having here. Although I agree with you, our new rooks are in a tough position, I just don't see much change from last year when we had proven vets.

[Bosco]

Truth be told, I would be more willing to buy the "rebuilding" excuse (that's what it is) if we were starting more rookies in places that matter. I would also be more forgiving with regard to W/L record and even accept some blowout losses.

However, when we give away picks like candy at a 4th of July parade (see Maroney for example) in exchange for FA's and considering 9 of 11 of the D starters are well over 30+ I expect to win.

Give me the youth movement of my sig and I will have no complaints.

Laurence Maroney is only 25, just FYI.

[Jake Klug]

No offense Bosco but not sure they really had a plan and have to disagree in the statement "we pursued Mawae". he was practicallly begging to find a team and and in no way fit the sheme or the youth movement in Denver. At best there were only rumors of some mutual interest but that's it..
Fry is for all intensive purposes a journeyman Camp fodder player -- not exactly competition.

I was going to call him out on this too but I realize that these guys offer excuses not because theyre involved in engaged analysis. Its rote for them. Essentially theyre parroting.

[jhildebrand]

Laurence Maroney is only 25, just FYI.

Which is 80 for some backs. I couldn't care less how old he is. His production in NE of late and here shows he clearly isn't worth a 4th. Now the team will be forced to consider resigning him and at what cost. Then if they don't sign him he was a 4th round pick that played 12 games or less for us. I just don't see the value considering there are James Davis guys out there. There are Andre Browns.

I would think you, of all people, would want a PS guy more than blowing a 4th on Maroney considering what I posted above and the fact you feel the line is the issue and not the backs.

[dogfish]

Just curious to know if anyone else thinks this was a huge mistake that could have tipped the season.

it obviously does kind of look that way now, but i was cautiously on board at the time, so i can't change my stance now with the benefit of hindsight. . . i certainly understood that it was a risk, but i didn't see then and really don't see now what better options we had. . .

i think hamilton is just done-- he was going to need replaced regardless. . . i also think we saw pretty conclusively that weigman wasn't going to flourish in this system-- whether that's due to his physical limitations, some flaw in the scheme or both, is largely irrelevant to this discussion IMO. . .

we knew we needed help on the OL, and given what was available in free agency, i didn't think the draft was a bad option. . . unless you're going to shell out large dollars in FA, you have to build through the draft at some point-- my rationale was that i was okay with biting the bullet and going through the growing pains now to hopefully get the rest of a line in place that could grow together for years. . . i preferred that to patching things with creaky old vets like mawae or allen faneca, and then being back to sqaure one a couple years from now, when hopefully guys like tebow and thomas have the offense humming. . .

and some borderline-decrepit vets were the only guys available that were any better than career journeymen, unless we were going to give up draft picks to sign an RFA like jahri evans or logan mankins. . . the one guy i did kinda want us to after was jamal brown for the price of a second, but oh well. . .

i knew we'd take our lumps early, but didn't expect it to be this bad. . . i really, really wish we'd have drafted brian bulaga or mike iupati to clear out bodies in the trenches, but we picked beadles (overdrafted, IMO). . . walton was the center i wanted. . . i was also hoping seth olsen would provide more competition-- and i still think he was one of our better run blockers in pre-season. . . having harris be MIA has really hurt us-- not only does it replace one of the vets we were relying on with a rookie, but it also hands the OLG spot to that bum hochstein. . .

i think we all had some foreboding that it wasn't going to be great when a street free agent walked directly into a starting job. . . but even looking back, i'm not so sure what we could have done differently that would have us in significantly better shape right now. . . other than maybe trading for mankins before the deadline, which we probably should have done. . .

[Bosco]

Which is 80 for some backs. That's 30, not 25.


I couldn't care less how old he is. I thought you wanted a youth movement though?


His production in NE of late and here shows he clearly isn't worth a 4th. Now the team will be forced to consider resigning him and at what cost. Then if they don't sign him he was a 4th round pick that played 12 games or less for us. I just don't see the value considering there are James Davis guys out there. There are Andre Browns. First, let's remember that the Maroney deal included a 6th rounder being sent back our way. That makes the net value about a 5th, which is more than acceptable for a starting quality running back.

Secondly, James Davis has 24 career rushing yards. Andre Brown hasn't even touched the ball and is injured even more often than Moreno. In what conceivable world could you consider them better options than a guy who has two 700+ yard seasons and an 800+ yard season in this very same offense?

Lastly, let's remember that the Maroney was done out of pure necessity. If Moreno, Buckhalter and White not gone down over the start of the season, Maroney is never here.

[Northman]

Truth be told, I would be more willing to buy the "rebuilding" excuse (that's what it is) if we were starting more rookies in places that matter. I would also be more forgiving with regard to W/L record and even accept some blowout losses.




Pow! Bam! Right on the money.

If your going to rebuild, rebuild and get experience and take your lumps early.

[Jake Klug]

it obviously does kind of look that way now, but i was cautiously on board at the time, so i can't change my stance now with the benefit of hindsight. . . i certainly understood that it was a risk, but i didn't see then and really don't see now what better options we had. . .

i think hamilton is just done-- he was going to need replaced regardless. . . i also think we saw pretty conclusively that weigman wasn't going to flourish in this system-- whether that's due to his physical limitations, some flaw in the scheme or both, is largely irrelevant to this discussion IMO. . .

we knew we needed help on the OL, and given what was available in free agency, i didn't think the draft was a bad option. . . unless you're going to shell out large dollars in FA, you have to build through the draft at some point-- my rationale was that i was okay with biting the bullet and going through the growing pains now to hopefully get the rest of a line in place that could grow together for years. . . i preferred that to patching things with creaky old vets like mawae or allen faneca, and then being back to sqaure one a couple years from now, when hopefully guys like tebow and thomas have the offense humming. . .

and some borderline-decrepit vets were the only guys available that were any better than career journeymen, unless we were going to give up draft picks to sign an RFA like jahri evans or logan mankins. . . the one guy i did kinda want us to after was jamal brown for the price of a second, but oh well. . .

i knew we'd take our lumps early, but didn't expect it to be this bad. . . i really, really wish we'd have drafted brian bulaga or mike iupati to clear out bodies in the trenches, but we picked beadles (overdrafted, IMO). . . walton was the center i wanted. . . i was also hoping seth olsen would provide more competition-- and i still think he was one of our better run blockers in pre-season. . . having harris be MIA has really hurt us-- not only does it replace one of the vets we were relying on with a rookie, but it also hands the OLG spot to that bum hochstein. . .

i think we all had some foreboding that it wasn't going to be great when a street free agent walked directly into a starting job. . . but even looking back, i'm not so sure what we could have done differently that would have us in significantly better shape right now. . . other than maybe trading for mankins before the deadline, which we probably should have done. . .

I guess the thing thats disappointing is that there really doesnt seem to be a sign of improvement. And Id resist the urge to get too excited about a small improvement in the running game because it could easily be the defenses having no respect for the run and focusing more on the pass as the season progresses. So, there is a very real concern of seeing the season come and go and possibly needing to look at OL in the draft again. We might need to regardless depending on what happens with Harris.

Another thing thats disappointing is that the coaches totally whiffed on what they had. Its not unlike misguaging on Chris Simms. And even still, they traded Hillis, Scheffler, Marshall, and Smith in the offseason and an OL wasnt brought in. It was clearly a need. No combination of the guys we traded could have netted a quality guard?

The offensive line has been a disaster and the coaches really need to have a better idea of what they have. I realize that with rookies they maybe estimate progress but they really missed badly.

And its not like they havent drafted a lot of young linemen between the 2 years. Olsen, Olson, Schleuther, Walton, and Beadles in just two years. Granted, they havent all been high picks but still, for that many picks to be spent on OL and to have it end up like this is tremendously disappointing.

[rcsodak]

The OL was the stregnth of the team when McD took over. Three of which were very young. Clady, Harris and Kuper. None of them are playing worth a damn now.
they didnt have the most important spot filled...C. And most said hamilton sucked and wanted him gone....DONE. McD cant restock the entire team in a single swipe. Many here are avers to FA's.he wnt that route on the Dline and gets hammered for having made it 'older'. In other words, McD can do no right. Blatantly obvious, imo.
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[rcsodak]

Interesting that you have 5K + posts in a football fan forum website while you are now openly showing disdain for the point of fan website. seems like a fruitless endeavor, don't ya think?? And not that I am going to do the research but I have my doubts you went through all 5K without sharing an opinion or speculating or making some sort of judgement.shouldn't be afraid to question comrade it's a natural thing in a free society. Meanwhile --the running game went from the best running system in the business over the last 15 years to the worst.. the line play deserves second guessing. Actually it demands second guessing.
Expecially after the head coach patted himself on the back for switching the scheme and claiming the running game was "sorta his thing". what a joke.Comrade?ts called piling on. In football, thats a 15yd penalty. Here, its standard practice and annoying. Most of these threads can be combined into one big hate-filled thread attacking everything McD. IMO.
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[rcsodak]

Yeah, no kidding.

I'm wondering if the Oline coach is a fit. But some of us said from the gitgo it'll take time.
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[Softskull]

I'm wondering if the Oline coach is a fit. But some of us said from the gitgo it'll take time.
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I agree with you that it will take time, but it appears that everyone has regressed on the Oline and I don't think anyone thought that the line would be this bad.

[arapaho2]

All three of which had off season suregery

Harris has coninued to play in less than 50% of the games he has been on the roster for.

I think he is toast after this year.
Having a part time OT watching the FQB blind side down the road is not going to cut it.

As for kuper I never saw all the much out of him.

Clady is clearly not yet back to 100% and frankly not sure he can habdle PBS either.at times He looked weak blocking one on one last year in the running game as for pass blocking he has been great.
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They started the digression last season while perfectly healthy...as i recall we went from 12 sacks to 30 something under josh

[Softskull]

They started the digression last season while perfectly healthy...as i recall we went from 12 sacks to 30 something under josh

Although I agree that the Oline started their decline last year, I think many of the sacks (and non-sacks in 08) were a function of the QB.

[arapaho2]

they didnt have the most important spot filled...C. And most said hamilton sucked and wanted him gone....DONE. McD cant restock the entire team in a single swipe. Many here are avers to FA's.he wnt that route on the Dline and gets hammered for having made it 'older'. In other words, McD can do no right. Blatantly obvious, imo.
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shit...given the idea that the oline without "the most important spot..center" was heads and tails better than it is now.....doesnt stand up in your excuse theory.

for one we now have that road grader at center..so an O line minus the center was very good...add a solid big hard nosed center and it should equal...a great young oline

somehow it came out to be one of the worst freakin oline in the game

we all know your in love with josh....fine... dont ask dont tell...but you cant just continue to blatently uphold him when you see the crap that he has put on the field...we are a terrible team...he built

further...the oline was the highlight of the team in 08..hailed as one of the top 3 olines in the game league wide

reduced to shit....thats the coach, his scheme, his coaching

[arapaho2]

Although I agree that the Oline started their decline last year, I think many of the sacks (and non-sacks in 08) were a function of the QB.


yes i agree...as i said in may of 2009..the sack totals will go up a good deal because of the fact we no longer would have a qb eludeing several sacks per game

but the fact is..the oline was alot worse in 09..the mishmash of zbs..or power blocking...it was bad

[Gimpygod]

OH GOODY! Another 2nd guessing thread.
I bet McD wishes the Oline was set with young ProBowlers. But it wasnt. Injured, subpar and old.
How many were complaining in preseason and before?
Thers'a reason for the monilers 'hindsight is 20_20', and the one I really like......'armchair/monday morning QB'.

I once watched a heart surgery...... Guess I should put Heart Surgeon on my resume. :lol:
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I don't really care what the moderators say, this is why you people Garner animosity. Pretentious, condescending loudmouths who can't respond in a decent manner. Also, many here did not like the offenses scheming, particularly blocking, last year or the direction it was taking so it's not hindsight so much as foresight. Just to make it clear you think the offensive line is just fine the way it is? The scheming is perfect and the personnel just so?

[Gimpygod]

Interesting that you have 5K + posts in a football fan forum website while you are now openly showing disdain for the point of fan website. seems like a fruitless endeavor, don't ya think?? And not that I am going to do the research but I have my doubts you went through all 5K without sharing an opinion or speculating or making some sort of judgement.
shouldn't be afraid to question comrade it's a natural thing in a free society.

Meanwhile ---
the running game went from the best running system in the business over the last 15 years to the worst.. the line play deserves second guessing. Actually it demands second guessing.
Expecially after the head coach patted himself on the back for switching the scheme and claiming the running game was "sorta his thing". what a joke.

good post but you shouldn't bother. Posters like rcsodak swoop in and make some sort of snide comment then when they are rebutted by facts disappear until they can swoop in again and take a free shot at people trying to discuss football… As you adroitly pointed out is the very purpose of this board: speculation and discussion.

[Rick]

I just think they should never have changed the scheme.

Want to get bigger? Fine get bigger but don't change the scheme. Clady, Kuper and Haris are all big guys that did just fine zone blocking and the scheme produced as one of the best run teams for over a decade.

Don't rock the boat, get more big guys that can fit the scheme that has been working.

[jhildebrand]

That's 30, not 25.

I know what I said, Bosco. There have been plenty of backs who are 2-3 year wonders and nothing more.



I thought you wanted a youth movement though?

I do. What you failed to recognize which should have been clear is with OUR guys from OUR picks. Guys who don't have a preconceived notion about who they are or what they should be or be entitled to.



First, let's remember that the Maroney deal included a 6th rounder being sent back our way. That makes the net value about a 5th,

You can spin as much as you want, Bosco. But can you honestly say Maroney to this point is worth a 4th? Don't give me crap about the value we got back because at the end of the day another team will be drafting where we could have in the 4th which is a far cry better than the 6th!

Also, will it be worth it if this team doesn't even sign Marnoey to a new deal?



which is more than acceptable for a starting quality running back.

Who are we talking about here? :confused: Starting quality RB and Maroney applied to his rookie season and that's about it.




Secondly, James Davis has 24 career rushing yards. Andre Brown hasn't even touched the ball and is injured even more often than Moreno. In what conceivable world could you consider them better options than a guy who has two 700+ yard seasons and an 800+ yard season in this very same offense?

Cute. Coming from a person who has argued sample size in the past. I can tell you why they are better option-they don't cost this team a 4th and they cannot possibly be worse than Maroney! Furthermore, guys like Pierre Thomas ( a guy I loved coming out of school) end up on the PS. There is plenty of talent sitting on the PS around the NFL.



Lastly, let's remember that the Maroney was done out of pure necessity. If Moreno, Buckhalter and White not gone down over the start of the season, Maroney is never here.

That doesn't warrant blowing a 4th round pick! PERIOD.

You guys can't have it both ways. You can't insist this team is rebuilding (despite that term never being used by anybody at Pidgeon Valley) when they are blowing picks for washed up vets. It just doesn't work that way.

[rcsodak]

Yeah, no kidding.
There's a difference between a 'reason' and an 'excuse'.


~TWM
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[rcsodak]

I agree with you that it will take time, but it appears that everyone has regressed on the Oline and I don't think anyone thought that the line would be this bad.
Could be that there are 5 people on the Oline that don't fit. The two T's/kuper are ZBS blockers learning how to be PBS blockers. And the two rooks come from spread O's that I was told didn't rely on the run. There might lie the rub. Might need an Oline coach that can teach some toughness.
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[arapaho2]

Could be that there are 5 people on the Oline that don't fit. The two T's/kuper are ZBS blockers learning how to be PBS blockers. And the two rooks come from spread O's that I was told didn't rely on the run. There might lie the rub. Might need an Oline coach that can teach some toughness.
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partly right

clady ran a zbs in college..i believe harris and kuper were pbs schools?

you got to look at the big picture..even last year in the first year of pb... and with players who were critisized as unworthy..we were better

we added two supposedly better players and are worse...the differance is the oline coaching..dennisen vrs who ever is the godforsaken line coach we got now

[rcsodak]

yes i agree...as i said in may of 2009..the sack totals will go up a good deal because of the fact we no longer would have a qb eludeing several sacks per game

but the fact is..the oline was alot worse in 09..the mishmash of zbs..or power blocking...it was bad
that same qb that you said can "elude sacks" is sure tearing it up in Chi. :lol:
Besides, sacks arent the issue. For the number of times KO is going back to pass, the Oline is blocking EXCEPTIONALLY well. Its the run blocking that is ailing. Two different birds.
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[Softskull]

that same qb that you said can "elude sacks" is sure tearing it up in Chi. :lol:
Besides, sacks arent the issue. For the number of times KO is going back to pass, the Oline is blocking EXCEPTIONALLY well. Its the run blocking that is ailing. Two different birds.
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I wouldn't say we're pass blocking exceptionally well. Just to compare the top five passing attempt teams vs. rank in sacks allowed

New Orleans 9th
Denver 26th
San Diego 29th
St. Louis 23rd
Detroit 11th

Only the chargers are worse than us. Freakin' Detroit is much better than us and a Rookie Qb in St. Louis is avoiding sacks better. Being 26th in sack totals is far from EXCEPTIONAL.

[rcsodak]

I don't really care what the moderators say, this is why you people Garner animosity. Pretentious, condescending loudmouths who can't respond in a decent manner. Also, many here did not like the offenses scheming, particularly blocking, last year or the direction it was taking so it's not hindsight so much as foresight. Just to make it clear you think the offensive line is just fine the way it is? The scheming is perfect and the personnel just so?
:lol: hello pot.
As for your question, there are lots of Olines that suck. But that happens with adding rooks, changing schemes, injuries, etc. Shannys gone. Alex is gone. Kubes is gone. I've dealt with it . Maybe you should.
You people act like this poor running game happened overnight. :rolleyes:
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[jhildebrand]

It's always the players fault when things are going south never McD's and don't dare attempt to reason that the O line and any other player on the roster is there because of McD because that has nothing to do with it. It isn't his fault he has a mish mash of o line personnel and schemes. It was simply handed to him by the almighty universe and he had completely no control over the situation what so ever! :coffee:

[rcsodak]

partly right

clady ran a zbs in college..i believe harris and kuper were pbs schools?

you got to look at the big picture..even last year in the first year of pb... and with players who were critisized as unworthy..we were better

we added two supposedly better players and are worse...the differance is the oline coaching..dennisen vrs who ever is the godforsaken line coach we got now
I think everybody saw weigman getting pushed into the backfield last year. If he's doing better this yr, then he either couldnt adjust or the 2 guards next to him are better or the Oline coach is better. Last yr, when healthy, harris was a stud. Last yr, when healthy, clady was a stud. Kuper was coming into his own which warranted his raise. Other than injuries, the only change has been the Oline coach. Maybe we'll see improvement, or maybe McD will be forced to cutbait and find a new one?
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[rcsodak]

I wouldn't say we're pass blocking exceptionally well. Just to compare the top five passing attempt teams vs. rank in sacks allowed

New Orleans 9th
Denver 26th
San Diego 29th
St. Louis 23rd
Detroit 11th

Only the chargers are worse than us. Freakin' Detroit is much better than us and a Rookie Qb in St. Louis is avoiding sacks better. Being 26th in sack totals is far from EXCEPTIONAL.
And ALL of them have running games taking pressure off the Oline, from constantly blitzing, etc.
Stats dont tell the whole story, would you agree?
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[Softskull]

You people act like this poor running game happened overnight. :rolleyes:
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The poor running game did start to disinegrate almost overnight. Here's our rating in yards per attempt for the last few years.

2007 3rd
2008 2nd
2009 15th
2010 32nd

[Softskull]

And ALL of them have running games taking pressure off the Oline, from constantly blitzing, etc.
Stats dont tell the whole story, would you agree?
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I would agree that stats can be a damn bunch o' lies. But the truth can be found in them too.

You mentioned that the pass blocking and run blocking were two different beast. I do agree, but one bleeds over to the next.

[Jake Klug]

The poor running game did start to disinegrate almost overnight. Here's our rating in yards per attempt for the last few years.

2007 3rd
2008 2nd
2009 15th
2010 32nd

Wow. Someone needs to be fired.

[Gimpygod]

:lol: hello pot.
As for your question, there are lots of Olines that suck. But that happens with adding rooks, changing schemes, injuries, etc. Shannys gone. Alex is gone. Kubes is gone. I've dealt with it . Maybe you should.
You people act like this poor running game happened overnight. :rolleyes:
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I didn't say the running game got killed overnight, took McDaniels almost half a season to completely drive a stake through the heart of what was once the best running team in the league for over a decade (meaning that no team over that same decade could match our output). I get that I have to move on but I want to move on with somebody competent… Not McDaniels. The bye week of last year was the death blow for this offensive line, when McDaniels finally implemented "his scheme" with guys that matched his "bigger, stronger, smarter" criteria. This isn't a new phenomenon we are just now noticing, you are just now becoming aware of the full impact of McDaniels horrible scheme and implementation as well as player evaluation. He also really sucks at utilizing talent he has to the utmost, in fact he seemed to emphasize weaknesses.

Thank you for answering the question civilly. Don't forget to address the other posters who point out that our pass blocking is ranked 26th, run blocking 32nd and so on.

[rcsodak]

The poor running game did start to disinegrate almost overnight. Here's our rating in yards per attempt for the last few years.

2007 3rd
2008 2nd
2009 15th
2010 32nd
then 1/2 the league went to ZBS. Plus, those stats dont show the inneptness at short yardage/goalline. The 2 reasons for the change to PBS. Would you again agree? In other words, alot like a wr with 100 recpts/1200yds and only a handful of TDs. The pts dont equal the output.
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[Bosco]

It's always the players fault when things are going south never McD's and don't dare attempt to reason that the O line and any other player on the roster is there because of McD because that has nothing to do with it. It isn't his fault he has a mish mash of o line personnel and schemes. It was simply handed to him by the almighty universe and he had completely no control over the situation what so ever! :coffee:

Going into 2010 we needed a LG and a center. We spent a 2nd and 3rd rounder on them, respectively. Is it McDaniels fault that every single one of the other three veterans has been hurt at some time during the season requiring him to play musical chairs along the line? I'm pretty sure that if you ask him, he'd like a healthy Clady and Harris out on the ends so Beadles could have been playing LG where he was supposed to.

[Ravage!!!]

Going into 2010 we needed a LG and a center. We spent a 2nd and 3rd rounder on them, respectively. Is it McDaniels fault that every single one of the other three veterans has been hurt at some time during the season requiring him to play musical chairs along the line? I'm pretty sure that if you ask him, he'd like a healthy Clady and Harris out on the ends so Beadles could have been playing LG where he was supposed to.

I'm pretty sure that if you ask anyone, they would prefer that we have some kind of improvement on the OL after watching it dwindle down and become as near pathetic as any OL I"ve seen in Denver. But I guess no other coach has had injuries on their OL, before.

[Bosco]

I'm pretty sure that if you ask anyone, they would prefer that we have some kind of improvement on the OL after watching it dwindle down and become as near pathetic as any OL I"ve seen in Denver. But I guess no other coach has had injuries on their OL, before.

It's a very frustrating situation for sure, it's not just fair to lay it on McDaniels door step. The two positions that needed upgrading going into 2010 had premium draft picks invested in them, so it's not like he is ignoring the problem.

Now at this point, I think you could make a pretty legitimate argument about whether Clancy Barone is doing his job correctly, but that is something that can't be corrected until the offseason, assuming Josh McDaniels agrees.

[Lonestar]

I think starting a rookie at center (with no veteran backup to lean on) on a young line has set us back. The C has to make line calls and blocking schemes and get everyone on the same page and for Walt to do it without the benefit of a vet to lean on has caused issues.

with this I would tend agree, but then would you have kept casey around to mentor him?

IIRC Kuper was helping out with said calls but then he has had his issues also.

[Lonestar]

Which is 80 for some backs. I couldn't care less how old he is. His production in NE of late and here shows he clearly isn't worth a 4th. Now the team will be forced to consider resigning him and at what cost. Then if they don't sign him he was a 4th round pick that played 12 games or less for us. I just don't see the value considering there are James Davis guys out there. There are Andre Browns.

I would think you, of all people, would want a PS guy more than blowing a 4th on Maroney considering what I posted above and the fact you feel the line is the issue and not the backs.

I'm not sure what the real problem is anymore. But would tend to think it was the OLINE considering how many first contact hits have been on our side of the LOS.

As for a 4th rounder for a one year rental. might be expensive but then trying to teach another RB coming in the scheme (playbook) on the run so to speak might have not worked either. At least he was play book ready.

Had we not had the other injuries in the RB area I suspect it would not have been necessary. Having option on him might get us a discount on his services when he becomes a FA since YOU believe he sucks as a RB how many teams will feel the same way after a less than stellar past few years.

[Lonestar]

They started the digression last season while perfectly healthy...as i recall we went from 12 sacks to 30 something under josh

but then in 08 every oline guy played every snap of every game. Casey and hamilton were both a year younger at the time. we also had a mobile QB opposed to a QB that had two high ankle sprains for much of the year on top of EVERYONE except 3 people on the offensive side (including all the coaches) of the LOS was learning a new scheme those being Josh, Gaffeny and Hockstien and two of those were not playing much. Josh and Hockstein

So comparing 08 to 09 is comparing apples to beans. IMO

[Dzone]

Most if not all of those rookie OLmen were academic All Americans...that may help...I think its fine...Pittsburgh is starting Maurkise Pouncey ,a rookie center we should have picked but he didnt play in the right "system" in college..

[Lonestar]

Originally Posted by arapaho2
partly right

clady ran a zbs in college..i believe harris and kuper were pbs schools?

you got to look at the big picture..even last year in the first year of pb... and with players who were critisized as unworthy..we were better

we added two supposedly better players and are worse...the differance is the oline coaching..dennisen vrs who ever is the godforsaken line coach we got now

Lets get real here dennison the guy that played LB in college and the pros who never once played a spot on the OLINE was going to teach them PBS when all he knows is ZBS and cut blocking.

now he is almost as good as Gibbs @ ZBS was at it but him trying to teach PBS did not work at all in 09 why keep him around for another year of being unbale to teach them.



The poor running game did start to disinegrate almost overnight. Here's our rating in yards per attempt for the last few years.

2007 3rd
2008 2nd
2009 15th
2010 32nd


ANd just how many of those yards all of those years were inside the redzone, excepting MA and CP years on the squad mikey talked about redzone problems in his EOY presser every year EVERY stinking year.

Sorry but being able to put up huge yardage numbers up tot eh redzone means Squat to most of us.

[Lonestar]

Most if not all of those rookie OLmen were academic All Americans...that may help...I think its fine...Pittsburgh is starting Paucey(sic), a rookie center we should have picked but he didnt play in the right "system" in college..

and how many injuries and vets does he have around him, including RB's?

Since I do not follow PIT I'm not sure, but I suspect no where close to our M.A.S.H. unit.

[Lonestar]

then 1/2 the league went to ZBS. Plus, those stats dont show the ineptness at short yardage/goalline. The 2 reasons for the change to PBS. Would you again agree? In other words, alot like a wr with 100 recpts/1200yds and only a handful of TDs. The pts dont equal the output.
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NO team running the PBS has won a super bowl since we did. IIRC

Pretty damned good reason to bail on it as a primary way to do business.

BTW it sucked against 3-4 teams. and even more so against really physical DL's .

Even more reason to mix it up and getting bigger on the oline.

[Dzone]

New england won a super bowl with two rookie OL.
Anyway, I think it was Beadles who tore up the pre draft combine with his stats. I do tend to think this OL is set for the future.

[dogfish]

NO team running the ZBS has won a super bowl since we did. IIRC



the colts were a zone-stretch running team when they won it. . .

[Dean]

Lets get real here dennison the guy that played LB in college and the pros who never once played a spot on the OLINE was going to teach them PBS when all he knows is ZBS and cut blocking.

now he is almost as good as Gibbs @ ZBS was at it but him trying to teach PBS did not work at all in 09 why keep him around for another year of being unbale to teach them.

You mean as opposed to the awesome O-line coaching job that is taking place this year, right???



ANd just how many of those yards all of those years were inside the redzone, excepting MA and CP years on the squad mikey talked about redzone problems in his EOY presser every year EVERY stinking year.

Sorry but being able to put up huge yardage numbers up tot eh redzone means Squat to most of us.

I think that you are ovelooking the elephant sitting in the corner.

At the present we can't run between the twenties nor can we run in the red zone. We can't run on first and ten. We can't run on third and short. We can't run the ball ever.

I know that you looked at the Broncos run game as a cup half empty. However, it is now empty. I don't understand how you can look at what we have now as being somehow better?

[dogfish]

New england won a super bowl with two rookie OL.
Anyway, I think it was Beadles who tore up the pre draft combine with his stats. I do tend to think this OL is set for the future.

an unimpressive 27 reps on the bench and a 5.28 40 are the only combine stats i can find for beadles, which definitely isn't tearing it up-- maybe i'm missing some info, or maybe you mean positional drills or something like that, but i sure don't remember beadles tearing it up, at all. . . i do remember reading some pretty blistering reports of his senior bowl workouts. . .

here's his scouting report from draftscout.com:

Overview

Regarded as one of the elite offensive tackles in college football, most professional talent evaluators view Beadles as the ideal guard at the next level. The four-year starter does have past experience at that position, moving from guard to tackle during his sophomore season. The consensus feels that he is the school's best offensive lineman since the Jordan Gross era (1999-2002).

Beadles has been a model of consistency since arriving on Utah's campus. A tough athlete with a high threshold for pain, he's played with injuries that would sideline most (concussion, knee sprain, leg laceration), reluctantly sitting out just one game during his career. He went on to start 50-of-51 contests for the Utes, producing 313 knockdowns/key blocks while coming up with key hits on 45 touchdown drives.

Beadles comes from a sports-oriented extended family. His father, Brad Beadles, played baseball at Hutchinson Junior College. His stepmother, Jill, started at point guard for Concordia Lutheran, which qualified for the NAIA Final Four in 1993-94. His mother, Jamie Legerski, played basketball for Wyoming. His stepfather, Joe Legerski, is the women's basketball coach at Wyoming and a former Utah assistant.

At Hillcrest High School, Beadles earned first-team All-State and All-Region honors as a two-way lineman. The team captain and three-year starter did not miss a game during his high school career. He was the recipient of his team's "Top Lineman" Award as a senior after recording 93 tackles, six sacks and an interception for the defense and not allowing a sack as an offensive tackle. He received a two-star prospect rating from both Rivals.com and Scout.com.

Beadles also lettered three times in baseball and twice in basketball. He earned honorable mention All-State and first-team All-Region honors on the baseball diamond in 2005 and the team captain was a second-team All-Region player in 2004. A member of the National Honor Society, he ranked 37th out of a class of 542, graduating with a 3.92 grade point average.

Beadles enrolled at the University of Utah in 2005, spending the season on the scout team while red-shirting. The following season, he emerged from fall camp as the team's starting left guard, coming off the bench vs. Brigham Young after missing most of the week's practices and the previous week's game vs. Air Force after suffering a concussion vs. the Falcons. He participated in 696 plays, recording 39 knockdowns/key blocks as the Utes averaged 368.38 yards per game.

Beadles switched to left tackle in 2007, earning All-Mountain West Conference second-team and Academic All-MWC first-team honors. He repeated as a member of the Utah Athletic Director's Honor Roll, but also got high marks on the football field, where he collected 76 knockdowns/key blocks, along with ten touchdown-resulting blocks. Behind his blocking, Utah averaged 369.62 yards per game in total offense.

Beadles was named the Utes' Top Offensive Lineman, adding All-MWC first-team honors in 2008. He was selected for ESPN's Academic All-District VIII team and again earned league and school academic honors. He started 12 games at left tackle, missing the Nevada-Las Vegas clash after suffering a knee sprain vs. Michigan. He finished with 109 knockdowns/key blocks, getting out in front on 13 touchdown-resulting blocks. Behind his blocking, Utah generated 400.92 yards per game and led the MWC while ranking 15th nationally in scoring (36.92 points per game).

The Lombardi Award candidate was named All-American second-team by Walter Camp and again garnered All-MWC first-team recognition as a senior. He manned the left tackle position, producing 89 knockdowns/key blocks while recording 15 touchdown-resulting blocks. The young offense struggled to match their 2008 production, but the Utes still averaged 389.54 yards per game.

Analysis

Pass blocking: Looks like a guard on the edge, lacking the height and athletic build expected of most elite left tackle prospects. Rarely gets beat by defensive ends on outside rushes, however, because he has a quick set, solid footwork and smooth lateral movement. Inconsistent with his punch, but will reset his hands inside and play with a wide base to anchor after the initial contact. Adeptly picks up twists and safety blitzes. Will get knocked back by a strong punch, but usually recovers to anchor. Inconsistent on cut blocks for quick throws. Plays a little nasty, and doesn't let his man up once on the ground. Inexperienced pass protecting from a three-point stance.

Run blocking: Didn't line up with his hand on the ground and fire off the ball very often in Utah's spread offense. More of a positional run blocker, moving his feet to put himself between the defender and the ball. Punches his man in the numbers when attempting to drive, but doesn't move his feet to sustain the block. Good on combo blocks, pounding the guard and finding a linebacker to take out of the play. Gets low and drives forward in goal-line and short-yardage situations.

Pulling/trapping: Only occasionally blocks on the move, but has the feet to trap if moved inside in the pros. Has only average foot quickness moving down the line, but adjusts to oncoming defenders while in motion and gets a hand on hustling linemen to prevent them from getting to the ball. Gets low to cut block defenders he can't reach.

Initial Quickness: Good enough with his kick slide off the snap to prevent even quick pass rushers from turning the corner. Not called upon to drive block often, and needs practice firing off the snap into an opponent's jersey from a three-point stance.

Downfield: Not fluid running to cut off linebackers between the tackles, but moves adequately and doesn't let go once he gets there. Reaches defenders in space - even used to knock out cornerbacks on slip screens - but comes in off-balance and will struggle to sustain if he doesn't latch on. Inconsistent moving his feet to stay on his man.

Intangibles: Durable three-year starter who is a vocal leader in the locker room. Coaches love his attitude and work ethic in practice.

NFL Comparison: Brandon Frye, Seahawks

Career Notes
The two-time team Most Valuable Offensive Lineman, Beadles started 50-of-51 games he played in at Utah, including twelve starting assignments at left offensive guard and 38 at left tackle … Registered 313 knockdowns/key blocks and 45 touchdown-resulting blocks during his four years in the lineup … Allowed only 3.5 quarterback sacks and three pressures on 819 pass plays during his final two seasons.

2009 Season

Beadles earned first-team All-American honors from the Football Writers Association of America and College Football News, as he also was named second-team All-American by the Walter Camp Football Foundation and Sports Illustrated, adding third-team accolades from The Sporting News … Became the first Utah offensive lineman to receive national honors since offensive guard Chris Kemoeatu in 2004 … Lowe's Senior Class second-team All-American and the Wuerffel Trophy finalist … Named All-Mountain West Conference first-team for the second-straight year and marked his third consecutive selection to the Athletic Director's Honor Roll … Chosen to the ESPN Academic All-District VIII squad for the second-straight season … Beadles recorded 89 knockdowns/key blocks (24 cuts/13 pancakes), as he added 15 touchdown-resulting blocks and seven blocks downfield … Was penalized four times and allowed three quarterback pressures, along with 1.5 sacks on 405 pass plays … Helped the Utes average 389.54 yards in total offense, including 229.23 yards passing … The front wall allowed 20 quarterback sacks, ranking 39th nationally … Recorded a solo tackle in the Oregon clash … Suffered a lower leg laceration vs. Louisville.

2008 Season

Beadles was a first-team All-MWC and Academic All-MWC choice … Selected Academic All-District VIII by ESPN … Named Utah's Top Offensive Lineman … Member of the Athletic Director's Honor Roll … Started twelve games at left offensive tackle, missing most of the season opener vs. Michigan and the entire next contest vs. Nevada-Las Vegas due to a knee sprain … Still led the team with a career-best 109 knockdowns/key blocks (27 cuts/42 pancakes) … Registered thirteen touchdown-resulting blocks and seven blocks down-field … Was penalized twice and gave up two quarterback sacks on 414 pass plays … Paved the way for an offense that averaged 400.92 yards per game in total offense and ranked 15th in the nation in scoring (36.92 points per game) … The passing attack placed third in the league with an average of 244.46 yards.

2007 Season

Beadles shifted to left offensive tackle, earning All-MWC second-team and Academic All-MWC first-team recognition … Named to the Athletic Director's honor Roll … Participated in 856 plays, recording 76 knockdowns/key blocks (22 pancakes/17 cuts) with 10 touchdown-resulting blocks … Part of a front wall that protected an offense that averaged 369.62 yards per game, including 202.15 yards via their passing attack.

2006 Season

Beadles made the Dean's List and the Athletic Director's Honor Roll in his first season with the varsity … Played in 13 games, starting all but the Brigham Young contest (came off the bench while recovering from a concussion suffered during the previous game vs. Air Force) … Participated in 696 plays, collecting 39 knockdowns/key blocks (10 pancakes/10 cuts) while coming up with seven touchdown-resulting blocks … Helped the Utes average 368.38 yards in total offense and 227.92 yards passing per game … Part of a front wall that ranked tied for sixth in the nation while leading the Mountain West Conference in fewest quarterback sacks allowed (14 for minus-113 yards, 1.15 sacks per game).

2005 Season

Redshirted as a freshman.

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/players/historical/559528

i like beadles as a utility OL. . . and his pass protection has been up and down, but overall not that shabby for a rookie thrown to the wolves at a position he didn't get a lot of reps for in camp. . . IF he can generate some movement in the run game he may be good enough to stick long term at right tackle, but the high-lighted portions of that post reflect my concern. . . you don't expect the center to be huge, but i never really understood what made beadles a good fit for the PBS-- he's certainly no mauler. . .

can't hold the fact that he played in a college spread against him-- lots of guys do these days. . . IIRC there was an article here from king or prisco or one of those guys which quoted some GM on the fact that it was getting harder for everybody to find pro-ready OLs. . . still, i don't know that beadles has the base strength to ever be a dominant drive blocker. . . i can't find the senior bowl comments (i believe they were either from draftscout's rob rang or PFW's nolan nawrocki, but i don't recall for sure), but they went in the same direction-- whoever it was said he thought beadles looked close to maxed out in terms of athleticism and power, and he may not have the physical ability to be more than a marginal starter at the next level. . .

i like the guy well enough, he's battled hard under tough circumstances-- but i don't know whether to expect him to develop into a good starter for us or not. . . josh most certainly needs zane to make that happen-- in the greater scheme of things there are far worse outcomes than burning a second on a guy who ends up being quality depth at multiple positions, but it's not really a scenario we can afford with this roster. . . he needs to start, and play well, whether it's ultimately at OLG or ORT. . . if our O-line play and running game don't improve, josh can't keep his job beyond next year. . .

i do think it's tough to blame mcD for harris. . . he didn't draft him or sign him to an extension, but no way he could afford to not count on the guy as a starter, at least for the remainder of his rookie deal. . . you can only turn over so much of the roster at once, you've got a good young tackle you plan to use him. . . the one good thing about the selection of beadles is that he CAN play tackle, so we're not completely out to dry with the likes of polumbus, who was an utter turnstyle in pass pro. . . i do give mcD some credit for foresight there. . . i just don't think we can afford to rely on harris any longer, though-- we've now seen pretty conclusively that it's too risky. . .

so, josh better hope he was right about beadles. . . we've got the rest of the season to see if they can get some better results out of this line, but if it doesn't improve we'll unfortunately be in a position where we have to invest more resources in it, whether we really have them available or not. . . you certainly can't win like this, and no way we can go into next year with this same group if we don't see significant improvement down the stretch. . . and at this point, you have to at least consider looking for help in free agency, as much as i hate building a line that way. . .

bare minimum, we have to get somebody better than hochstein or daniels to play LG-- we can get by with a platoon of beadles and harris at ORT for a year (although i'd rather trade harris if a ZBS team will give us anything), but if we have to fill the ORT spot as well we are truly and purely screwed. . .

[Lonestar]

You mean as opposed to the awesome O-line coaching job that is taking place this year, right???




I think that you are ovelooking the elephant sitting in the corner.

At the present we can't run between the twenties nor can we run in the red zone. We can't run on first and ten. We can't run on third and short. We can't run the ball ever.

I know that you looked at the Broncos run game as a cup half empty. However, it is now empty. I don't understand how you can look at what we have now as being somehow better?


Are you sure it is coaching?

We know for sure that Rick did not coach them up last year.

Maybe it is just the inability of the injured Vets to get the job done this year.

I do not think that clady was great last year in the PBS and to add to that the knee injury that normally takes 12 + months to come back from is not helping in that area today.

Kuper is nothing special this year could be the ankle also.

Harris well he has had less time in games than he has watching them since he joined the team 4 years ago.

Beadles I believe will be a quality kid once they find a permanent home for him.

JD well rookie centers get beat up quite often, part of learning the spot. not like he has to all pros next to him.

as for the rest of the running game RB's which one has been healthy for more than 15 minutes.

worry about it if you want it will come around or it won't if it does not after the bye week I'll lose some sleep about it till week 10 or so I'm not worried.

I thought it would be tough sledding until the bye week anyway so they are not even on my radar yet.

[Lonestar]

an unimpressive 27 reps on the bench and a 5.28 40 are the only combine stats i can find for beadles, which definitely isn't tearing it up-- maybe i'm missing some info, or maybe you mean positional drills or something like that, but i sure don't remember beadles tearing it up, at all. . . i do remember reading some pretty blistering reports of his senior bowl workouts. . .


i like beadles as a utility OL. . . and his pass protection has been up and down, but overall not that shabby for a rookie thrown to the wolves at a position he didn't get a lot of reps for in camp. . . IF he can generate some movement in the run game he may be good enough to stick long term at right tackle, but the high-lighted portions of that post reflect my concern. . . you don't expect the center to be huge, but i never really understood what made beadles a good fit for the PBS-- he's certainly no mauler. . .

can't hold the fact that he played in a college spread against him-- lots of guys do these days. . . IIRC there was an article here from king or prisco or one of those guys which quoted some GM on the fact that it was getting harder for everybody to find pro-ready OLs. . . still, i don't know that beadles has the base strength to ever be a dominant drive blocker. . . i can't find the senior bowl comments (i believe they were either from draftscout's rob rang or PFW's nolan nawrocki, but i don't recall for sure), but they went in the same direction-- whoever it was said he thought beadles looked close to maxed out in terms of athleticism and power, and he may not have the physical ability to be more than a marginal starter at the next level. . .

i like the guy well enough, he's battled hard under tough circumstances-- but i don't know whether to expect him to develop into a good starter for us or not. . . josh most certainly needs zane to make that happen-- in the greater scheme of things there are far worse outcomes than burning a second on a guy who ends up being quality depth at multiple positions, but it's not really a scenario we can afford with this roster. . . he needs to start, and play well, whether it's ultimately at OLG or ORT. . . if our O-line play and running game don't improve, josh can't keep his job beyond next year. . .

i do think it's tough to blame mcD for harris. . . he didn't draft him or sign him to an extension, but no way he could afford to not count on the guy as a starter, at least for the remainder of his rookie deal. . . you can only turn over so much of the roster at once, you've got a good young tackle you plan to use him. . . the one good thing about the selection of beadles is that he CAN play tackle, so we're not completely out to dry with the likes of polumbus, who was an utter turnstyle in pass pro. . . i do give mcD some credit for foresight there. . . i just don't think we can afford to rely on harris any longer, though-- we've now seen pretty conclusively that it's too risky. . .

so, josh better hope he was right about beadles. . . we've got the rest of the season to see if they can get some better results out of this line, but if it doesn't improve we'll unfortunately be in a position where we have to invest more resources in it, whether we really have them available or not. . . you certainly can't win like this, and no way we can go into next year with this same group if we don't see significant improvement down the stretch. . . and at this point, you have to at least consider looking for help in free agency, as much as i hate building a line that way. . .

bare minimum, we have to get somebody better than hochstein or daniels to play LG-- we can get by with a platoon of beadles and harris at ORT for a year (although i'd rather trade harris if a ZBS team will give us anything), but if we have to fill the ORT spot as well we are truly and purely screwed. . .



I thought after seeing him that he was slated to take over harrises spot after his rookie contract was done.

As Harris has played in less than 50% of the games he was on the roster for.

We need a stud out there to protect Tebows blind side when he starts in a few years.

Not saying Clady can't make the move but no reason to IF we can find another stud in the draft. better to have a couple of great guys than just one.


Good post overall and great research.:salute::salute:

[TimTebow15MVP]

nah mcdaniels has a plan. we could win this year if everything went right but it hasnt weve lost some close games to some good teams for the part. the youngins need to play they will be so much mor edominant next year with experience and a full off season doing some nfl training to get stronger.

by time tebow takes over the OL will be complete.

[Jake Klug]

You mean as opposed to the awesome O-line coaching job that is taking place this year, right???




I think that you are ovelooking the elephant sitting in the corner.

At the present we can't run between the twenties nor can we run in the red zone. We can't run on first and ten. We can't run on third and short. We can't run the ball ever.

I know that you looked at the Broncos run game as a cup half empty. However, it is now empty. I don't understand how you can look at what we have now as being somehow better?

Dont even bother. That guy just recycles the same excuses over and over. He most likely puts half as much effort into it that you do.

[dogfish]

Dont even bother. That guy just recycles the same excuses over and over. He most likely puts half as much effort into it that you do.

okay, speaking of which, i've been meaning to ask. . .

you seem kinda familiar with some people here for a person that just signed up a week ago. . . so. . .

you a banned member, pissed-off current member under another name, or just real quick to observe tendencies/form opinions/jump to conclusions?


:D

[Jake Klug]

okay, speaking of which, i've been meaning to ask. . .

you seem kinda familiar with some people here for a person that just signed up a week ago. . . so. . .

you a banned member, pissed-off current member under another name, or just real quick to observe tendencies/form opinions/jump to conclusions?


:D

Im going by what Ive seen, which is the same stuff that people have been saying for several months. And in the case of this guy, he's been flooding the board with this stuff.

[jhildebrand]

Pouncey ,a rookie center we should have picked but he didnt play in the right "system" in college..

I was going to mention this but didn't because it really isn't a valid comparison IMHO. He is the only rookie playing on that line.

I was on the Pouncey train big time but I dont think he is so much an upgrade over Walton that this team would be running better.

[GEM]

Dont even bother. That guy just recycles the same excuses over and over. He most likely puts half as much effort into it that you do.

So what was your original screen name? I'm guessing Lex.

[Lonestar]

So what was your original screen name? I'm guessing Lex.

Certainly seems like one of our old banned guys to me. Good luck finding out and making it stick this time.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

[Bosco]

So what was your original screen name? I'm guessing Lex.

His posting style is pretty similar to what I saw from the OrangeMane's Lex on the rare occasions I lurk over there.

[Tned]

But clady harris and kuper all missed the better part of the year with beadle filling in at every spot on the oline except OC. Hard to learn one spot that way.


Just to clarify, Beadles worked pretty much exclusively at LG from June until he lost the starting game following the second preseason game.

[spikerman]

Are you sure it is coaching?

We know for sure that Rick did not coach them up last year.

Maybe it is just the inability of the injured Vets to get the job done this year.


To me, this part of your post shows your, um, let's just call it a "double standard". So, when the oline struggles under a coach you don't support it's the coaching, but when it's "Joshy's" hand-picked guy, it couldn't be the coaching, it must be a problem with the players, right?

It just amazes me how some posters refuse to hold "Joshy" accountable for anything. :tsk:

[Lonestar]

To me, this part of your post shows your, um, let's just call it a "double standard". So, when the oline struggles under a coach you don't support it's the coaching, but when it's "Joshy's" hand-picked guy, it couldn't be the coaching, it must be a problem with the players, right?

It just amazes me how some posters refuse to hold "Joshy" accountable for anything. :tsk:

last year rick had the same OLINE he had in 08 unless I missed something.

this year we have a significant change.

Harris out for much of the TC and part of the PS, with toe surgrey and IR late last year

Clady out for all of it. did not play a game till the first game IIRC, then it was coming off of knee surgery that MOST players take a full year to recover from.

Kuper missed a lot after IIRC ankle surgery.

Rookie center

rookie OLG, ORT, OLT in beadles that played IIRC every slot for a game or two except OC. wonder why he might be wondering where he is at on the oline and just why he might be a split second behind the rest of the OLINE.


all with new coaches this year.

YOU do not see any reason for the confusion this year.

Do you really think those are fair comparisons and no reason for a "double standard".

Later folks have to feed my mother in law and go to the store.

[spikerman]

last year rick had the same OLINE he had in 08 unless I missed something.

this year we have a significant change.

Harris out for much of the TC and part of the PS, with toe surgrey and IR late last year

Clady out for all of it. did not play a game till the first game IIRC, then it was coming off of knee surgery that MOST players take a full year to recover from.

Kuper missed a lot after IIRC ankle surgery.

Rookie center

rookie OLG, ORT, OLT in beadles that played IIRC every slot for a game or two except OC. wonder why he might be wondering where he is at on the oline and just why he might be a split second behind the rest of the OLINE.


all with new coaches this year.

YOU do not see any reason for the confusion this year.

Do you really think those are fair comparisons and no reason for a "double standard".

Later folks have to feed my mother in law and go to the store.

No, I do not see a reason for a double standard. Either the coach is responsible for the product on the field or he isn't. Let's not forget that Harris' most recent injury came when he was playing in the 4th preseason game long after the other starters had come out.

[Tned]

rookie OLG, ORT, OLT in beadles that played IIRC every slot for a game or two except OC. wonder why he might be wondering where he is at on the oline and just why he might be a split second behind the rest of the OLINE.


Once again, Beadles didn't start getting bounced all over the place (which was in reality just a move to RT) until AFTER he lost his starting job to Stanley Daniels.

Beadles was moved to LG during and OTA or minicamp in June, and then worked there all summer and TC and was installed as the starter and played LG the entire frst two pre-season games. At that point, he lost his job to Stanley Daniels and was moved to RT to fill in for Harris.

[Lonestar]

Once again, Beadles didn't start getting bounced all over the place (which was in reality just a move to RT) until AFTER he lost his starting job to Stanley Daniels.

Beadles was moved to LG during and OTA or minicamp in June, and then worked there all summer and TC and was installed as the starter and played LG the entire frst two pre-season games. At that point, he lost his job to Stanley Daniels and was moved to RT to fill in for Harris.

Did you ever think that he did not "lose" his job as much as they wanted him to cover Harris' spot? Maybe they knew that he was not going to be ready to play 16 games this year since he has only done that once in his 4 years here.

Unless you know something everyone else does not maybe you'd like to share it instead of making a supposition.

Also I'm pretty sure that he covered Cladys spot during some of the preseason games as well as some time covering Kupers spot.

[Watchthemiddle]

the 49ers started two rookie Olinemen today and produced a 100 yard rusher.

Then again it was against our D..so that really doesn't count.

[Bosco]

the 49ers started two rookie Olinemen today and produced a 100 yard rusher.

Then again it was against our D..so that really doesn't count.

They were also first round rookies, with another first rounder and two second rounders IIRC. That's some serious talent there.