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lex
09-18-2007, 09:57 PM
OK, Thomas seemed to be on the field 2/3 of the plays against the Raiders. He seems to be improving. Also, Jarvis Moss did a decent job and got a sack along with another tackle for a loss.

broncosinindy
09-18-2007, 10:06 PM
Grrr i missed the game. I really wanted to see Moss alot this year. well looks like i ll get my chance the week after this one.

TXBRONC
09-18-2007, 10:51 PM
I think Moss and Thomas are coming along just fine. It would be great if one of them were starting before the end of the year.

Requiem / The Dagda
09-18-2007, 10:58 PM
Thomas and Moss will progress, and they have the early up over Tim Crowder. It'll take time for them to assume their full potential, but it's nice knowing that Denver has three young players who are gaining valuable experience week in and week out. Once Crowder gets rolling, that'll be four. I guess, Gordon and Burton would count as well, but they're not long-term players in my opinion. Hopefully the final piece(s) are added this next draft.

broncosinindy
09-18-2007, 11:05 PM
i posted this in another thread and i know you love the draft as much as i do dream what is your thought on it.


There is little doubt in my mind we need to add to our interior Defensive line. The question is ask is do we do it outside of the second round in this upcoming draft or do we address it as a First day need?

The type of tackle we would be looking for is a guy with great strength that can play two gap. That being said Frank Okam is a guy in the first round that we could add But question is how well he will transfer from College to the pros. He has everything you look for in the guy. but rumors are around that he could very well have Gerrard Warren/Stephen Harris syndrome, in that he does not play the gap control line. and also there is questions about his motor.

Look back at last years draft Hartrell made the final roster in green bay. But he is not even on the roster for game day. And then we have the likes of Amobi Okoye who is starting in Houston, and has 2 sacks so far this season. So if we do go DT next year and take a shot on a guy like Okam will he play his first year that much. They say Tackle is one of the hardest positions in the NFL.


Or do you take a later day pick say in the second or third. There are the likes of

Red Bryant Texas A&M 6-5 324 who is a NT type

BJ Raji Boston College 6-1 340 who is also a NT but was said to be academically Ineligible and probably wont come out this next year.

Dre Moore DT Maryland is a little light for the system think he is 305 but is said to play with great strength

Terrance Taylor DT Michigan Another guy but how dominant is he?

Marcus Harrison DT Arkansas i think he was suspended by his team.(i cant remember the hole deal)
Ron Dixon from Miami and Jason Shirley DT Fresno St.

I say we address DT later in the draft and go after a guy that could be play from the get go and give us the chance to improve This next upcoming year.

I know its crazy but i would like to see us go after Rey Maualuga ILB USC in the first. Move DJ back to will give Gold his walking papers and draft Dizon from colorado to play strong side he is a bit small but he is defiently a guy who finds the ball carrier. and if he does not start would be lights out on special teams. and go after a DT in the second or one the thrid if we can get a pick there or take one in the fourth
__________________

dogfish
09-18-2007, 11:08 PM
i haven't had time to watch the game again, but from real-time observations i thought moss did better than okay. . . i was particularly impressed with how he shed that block to stuff the running play-- i think we know he has a lot of potential as a pass rusher, but if he can continue to make strides in run defense as well, he has a chance to be a special player with his size and athleticism. . .


go adopted bronco!


:woot:


EDIT: while we're talking about DTs, i think it's worth pointing out that free agency should be considered a viable alternative, especially considering that we only have two 1st day picks right now. . . it would be sweet to grab a DT to develop for the future, but IMO we may be better off bringing in a competent veteran who's tough against the run while we continue to develop marcus thomas. . . DT tends to have one of the longest transition periods-- while that does make it logical to get a quality prospect there as soon as possible, it also focres you to limit your expectations for immediate help from a draft pick. . . WR looks to be a little bit less of a need than anticipated with marshall and stokley both looking good, but offensive tackle and outside linebacker are areas that will probably need some attention in the draft, and safety could use some depth as well. . .

broncosinindy
09-18-2007, 11:12 PM
i haven't had time to watch the game again, but from real-time observations i thought moss did better than okay. . . i was particularly impressed with how he shed that block to stuff the running play-- i think we know he has a lot of potential as a pass rusher, but if he can continue to make strides in run defense as well, he has a chance to be a special player with his size and athleticism. . .


go adopted bronco!


:woot:

from the sounds of it he might be beast and might not have to add a bunch of weight if he can hold the point.

broncosinindy
09-18-2007, 11:16 PM
EDIT: while we're talking about DTs, i think it's worth pointing out that free agency should be considered a viable alternative, especially considering that we only have two 1st day picks right now. . . it would be sweet to grab a DT to develop for the future, but IMO we may be better off bringing in a competent veteran who's tough against the run while we continue to develop marcus thomas. . . DT tends to have one of the longest transition periods-- while that does make it logical to get a quality prospect there as soon as possible, it also focres you to limit your expectations for immediate help from a draft pick. . . WR looks to be a little bit less of a need than anticipated with marshall and stokley both looking good, but offensive tackle and outside linebacker are areas that will probably need some attention in the draft, and safety could use some depth as well. . .

While i defiently aggree with that. i dont think there is nothing out there that is gonna be a FA that impresses me one bit. Especially after Pat Williams resigned. We also might consider a trade....

BigBroncLove
09-18-2007, 11:45 PM
i haven't had time to watch the game again, but from real-time observations i thought moss did better than okay. . . i was particularly impressed with how he shed that block to stuff the running play-- i think we know he has a lot of potential as a pass rusher, but if he can continue to make strides in run defense as well, he has a chance to be a special player with his size and athleticism. . .


go adopted bronco!


:woot:


EDIT: while we're talking about DTs, i think it's worth pointing out that free agency should be considered a viable alternative, especially considering that we only have two 1st day picks right now. . . it would be sweet to grab a DT to develop for the future, but IMO we may be better off bringing in a competent veteran who's tough against the run while we continue to develop marcus thomas. . . DT tends to have one of the longest transition periods-- while that does make it logical to get a quality prospect there as soon as possible, it also focres you to limit your expectations for immediate help from a draft pick. . . WR looks to be a little bit less of a need than anticipated with marshall and stokley both looking good, but offensive tackle and outside linebacker are areas that will probably need some attention in the draft, and safety could use some depth as well. . .

I can't agree more. I also think Dumerville has looked impressively strong on both the run and the pass. He hasn't been steller, but his progression from his first season to this season as starting to become a more complete DE is very surprising. Moss also looked great this last weekend and I'm very much looking forward to see how his play continues to develop.

I am also in agreement about adressing the defensive tackle position this coming draft. It really comes down to what type of quality players are available where the Broncos will be drafting at, and the bpa at that position (unless Shanny and company want to trade up like 06 and 07). However with the Dline getting almost full attention this last draft, I can't imagine the Broncos going out of their way like this year to address the position. I'm not so sure what FA will bring, but if the Broncos stick to Bates system, I am sure a quality player that fits the scheme will pop up in free agency. After all DT's are not supposed to be the producers in Bates scheme as others, and so finding top quality DT's won't be the main issue. Just solid producers who can hold the line and create gap control, not produce penetration as most DLines prize in the middle. While I think we can all agree that the Broncos DT's are probably one of the weakest groups on the Denver D, I'm not sure the Broncos will want to continue to address the DLine when needs such as OTackle and LB still are glaring, and the Broncos safeties will likely be hanging them up sooner rather then later.

But with Shanny in company it's all about BPA, and if a quality DT falls to where ever the Broncos will be picking, it wouldn't surprise me to see the Broncs pick one up. Still, if the same problems arise week in and week out as they are now, I would prefer to see LB, OT, SS, and perhaps a Guard or Center looked at through the draft.... just a few cents for the pot :D

DenBronx
09-19-2007, 12:22 AM
this is a little off topic and sorry dont mean to highjack your thread but its being discussed at BM that the dolphins should trade taylor for a 1st rounder. suprise to me is to see so many bronco fans actually want to give up a 1st rounder for him when we have good des already...darn good ones too. i dont think we need taylor, although id trade crowder and a 3rd for him.

here's what i think we do need. someone that can help stop the run. we are spectacular against the pass....well at least until dre bly is exposed but so far we are pretty spectacular. we should have went after briggs...the dude is a tackling machine. could you imagine what are defense could do with a guy like briggs playing olb??? dj would be a total beast...it would be hard to run against us because briggs can play the pass or run and our corners would be even better. a 1st rounder is a steal for him....1st rounders dont always pan out....and im sorry but id rather cough it up for briggs. too bad we waited to long and this wont happen.

or, get a monster dt. what happened to the jenkins or rogers deals? anyone know what the story is with these guys? did one or both of them sign with a new team? anyhow i think out dts suck...sam adams is ok and thomas looks promising but we do need help here and this year.

so the trade deadline is coming up. anyone think one of these guys are a possibility or someone else?

DenBronx
09-19-2007, 12:25 AM
and im gonna freak if sheffler doesnt hurry up and start getting some playing time. the dude is a good redzone target for cutler.

BigBroncLove
09-19-2007, 12:37 AM
this is a little off topic and sorry dont mean to highjack your thread but its being discussed at BM that the dolphins should trade taylor for a 1st rounder. suprise to me is to see so many bronco fans actually want to give up a 1st rounder for him when we have good des already...darn good ones too. i dont think we need taylor, although id trade crowder and a 3rd for him.

YEah I saw the thread at BM and it sounds like a lot of huge speculation going on. People are talking about everything from JT trade to Zach Thomas trade, both of which I think are unlikely. The problem is that Taylor has been getting double teamed constantly while Porter, who was brought in to free Taylor up, has been struggling with his knee injury. I think the coachign staff cna see what the fans who are calling for trade after two weeks cannot. I wouldn't expect Taylor to be traded, but by some freak miracle he is, I wouldn;t want to see him here. I think Crowder does provide good upside and can pan out as a DE once he gets healthy. Plus we signed him to a fairly lengthy contract that I doubt the Broncos want to swallow with a cap penalty for next year with Wilsons release.... Like you said, I think we are pretty well set at DE.


here's what i think we do need. someone that can help stop the run. we are spectacular against the pass....well at least until dre bly is exposed but so far we are pretty spectacular. we should have went after briggs...the dude is a tackling machine. could you imagine what are defense could do with a guy like briggs playing olb??? dj would be a total beast...it would be hard to run against us because briggs can play the pass or run and our corners would be even better. a 1st rounder is a steal for him....1st rounders dont always pan out....and im sorry but id rather cough it up for briggs. too bad we waited to long and this wont happen.

Well I don't think the Bears were ever considering trade for Briggs for naything under a huge cost. They did end up signing him, so it's in the past, but yeah.... Briggs would have added so much to this defense. Currently though I do think Webster is doing a pretty damn impressive job at SAM. He is playing with a lot of authoroty. He makes solid hits and tackles, and still manages to lose his helmet from time to time :laugh: . Over all though, I think we do need better personel there, but thruthfully I am mroe concerned with Golds level of play then Websters at the moment..... and Furgeson truthfully. HE has looked poor over the TE so far this year....


or, get a monster dt. what happened to the jenkins or rogers deals? anyone know what the story is with these guys? did one or both of them sign with a new team? anyhow i think out dts suck...sam adams is ok and thomas looks promising but we do need help here and this year.

JEnkins is with the anthers and signed a multi-year deal if I am not mistaken. Personally I am not that huge on Jenkins. He has battled injury problems for a large part of his career, and I just don't see him as an option. I like Rogers a little more. But he also has been battlign a knee injury this year that also hurt him last year. I just hate it when big DT's have knee problems. Their weight and job description make it very difficult for them to overcome such problems. Ala Courtney Brown. I would prefer more healthy names, but any DT seems better then Gordon right now IMO...


so the trade deadline is coming up. anyone think one of these guys are a possibility or someone else?

I really think the Broncos are in it for the long haul with their current personel. I could see an FA grba at LB, but that's about it. With the signing of Rice and the very busy offseason acquisitions by the front office, I just doubt it will ahppen. But i've been wrong many times before..... Good subject though for discussion :D

The Horses Mouth
09-19-2007, 12:42 AM
I agree, i think we need some veteran help at DT, but i am very happy with our DE's especially moss this past weekend. He is going to be good if given the snaps this year. he is huge!!! (tall)

Skinny
09-19-2007, 08:09 AM
i posted this in another thread and i know you love the draft as much as i do dream what is your thought on it.


There is little doubt in my mind we need to add to our interior Defensive line. The question is ask is do we do it outside of the second round in this upcoming draft or do we address it as a First day need?

The type of tackle we would be looking for is a guy with great strength that can play two gap. That being said Frank Okam is a guy in the first round that we could add But question is how well he will transfer from College to the pros. He has everything you look for in the guy. but rumors are around that he could very well have Gerrard Warren/Stephen Harris syndrome, in that he does not play the gap control line. and also there is questions about his motor.

Look back at last years draft Hartrell made the final roster in green bay. But he is not even on the roster for game day. And then we have the likes of Amobi Okoye who is starting in Houston, and has 2 sacks so far this season. So if we do go DT next year and take a shot on a guy like Okam will he play his first year that much. They say Tackle is one of the hardest positions in the NFL.


Or do you take a later day pick say in the second or third. There are the likes of

Red Bryant Texas A&M 6-5 324 who is a NT type

BJ Raji Boston College 6-1 340 who is also a NT but was said to be academically Ineligible and probably wont come out this next year.

Dre Moore DT Maryland is a little light for the system think he is 305 but is said to play with great strength

Terrance Taylor DT Michigan Another guy but how dominant is he?

Marcus Harrison DT Arkansas i think he was suspended by his team.(i cant remember the hole deal)
Ron Dixon from Miami and Jason Shirley DT Fresno St.

I say we address DT later in the draft and go after a guy that could be play from the get go and give us the chance to improve This next upcoming year.

I know its crazy but i would like to see us go after Rey Maualuga ILB USC in the first. Move DJ back to will give Gold his walking papers and draft Dizon from colorado to play strong side he is a bit small but he is defiently a guy who finds the ball carrier. and if he does not start would be lights out on special teams. and go after a DT in the second or one the thrid if we can get a pick there or take one in the fourth
__________________I know it will probably be a million to one long shot come day 1 of the draft, but i would love to get Sedrick Ellis DT from USC.

I'm sold on that kid.

lex
09-19-2007, 08:46 AM
Yeah, our DEs are not looking so bad right now. Moss, Dumervil, Rice, and Crowder should make a decent rotation. Im just glad to see the younger guys start making playS. Were really going to need these guys to come through down the road. Indy should be a good test in a couple of weeks.

Joel
09-19-2007, 09:11 AM
A NT and a MLB on Day One; we have two picks, and that's what they should be. No, I don't want to argue about safeties/offensive tackles/receivers. Right now those are the two gaping holes on this team, and filling them would put us on the road to a SB, IMHO, even if those are hard positions to fill immediately through the draft (yes, yes, D.J.: The MLB would start at SLB and move over at need; since a good MLB can play S/WLB at least as well it solves multiple potential problems). Picking up quality players at these positions and having them for years as draftees/RFAs is a LOT more attractive than shelling out $10-15 mill a year to try and get Urlacher and Jamal Williams to play for us. Especially since they'll take their hefty paychecks and retire about the time draft picks would be coming into their prime. That said, it might be necessary to look at a FA or two is possible to buy the draft picks time to mature and gain Pro experience (which is why I wanted Randall Godfrey as much as Sam Adams; I like talented vets, but I like 'em a lot more when they don't bust the cap).

But yeah, two First Day picks, two glaring positions of need. Get a TRUE NT (not a finesse blitzer like Warren/Kennedy/McKinley/Thomas and forcing him to play NT or cutting him) and a LB capable of excelling anywhere on the line (like the said Holdman was, though I never really bought that). Do that and the year older offense will have plenty of SB firepower, especially with another year on the Chrisses and Pears.

NameUsedBefore
09-19-2007, 10:22 AM
I think D.J. Williams is doing a brilliant job at the mike position. I think we might have to finally look at addressing the safety position this coming year if anything when it comes to defense.

topscribe
09-19-2007, 10:36 AM
I think D.J. Williams is doing a brilliant job at the mike position. I think we might have to finally look at addressing the safety position this coming year if anything when it comes to defense.
We might because of age, of course. But if the safeties were not playing well,
we would not have the stellar pass defense we have had so far. The CBs
can't do it all alone.

But yes, D.J. is doing quite well. He is still adapting to his new position, but he
is coming along fine.

-----

dogfish
09-19-2007, 11:30 AM
I think D.J. Williams is doing a brilliant job at the mike position. I think we might have to finally look at addressing the safety position this coming year if anything when it comes to defense.

the problem is, according to dream (he's certainly not infalliable, but the guy does put in a lot of research, and the limited reading i've done so far backs him up in this case) this year's safety class looks to be very weak, especially at the top. . . while i'm not against addressing the position, i don't want to see us reach to fill that need when we still need help in the trenches on both sides of the ball, and IMO should look to upgrade the WILL linebacker spot as well. . . maybe we can find a gem in the rough on the second day, but our options for 1st day safeties may be limited if a few players don't emerge over the course of the college season. . .

luckily safety seems to be one of the positions where rookies can play right away and make an impact (either you have good instincts or you don't). . . right now lynch looks like he just might be able to give us another year past this one, and ferguson should be around at least another year or so. . . as top said, our safetes look pretty capable so far executing bates' scheme, where their heaviest responsibilities are in run support anyways-- having the corners we do lessens the coverage responsibilites of the safeties somewhat, although it did look like lynch was late over the top on the porter touchdown (i'm not sure exactly what defense we had called, or whether he was SUPPOSED to be providing that deep help). . .

kaylore and socal both raved about hamza abdullah in their camp reports, and i don't think we should assume that he can't become a capable starter until we've seen him actually get a chance. . . if nothing else, he may be able to at least buy us a year-- hopefully next year's safety class will be stronger, and if it is, waiting may turn out to be the smartest option. . . we could certainly take a developmental type on the second day in the meanwhile. . . we'll see what happens. . .

TXBRONC
09-19-2007, 11:32 AM
A NT and a MLB on Day One; we have two picks, and that's what they should be. No, I don't want to argue about safeties/offensive tackles/receivers. Right now those are the two gaping holes on this team, and filling them would put us on the road to a SB, IMHO, even if those are hard positions to fill immediately through the draft (yes, yes, D.J.: The MLB would start at SLB and move over at need; since a good MLB can play S/WLB at least as well it solves multiple potential problems). Picking up quality players at these positions and having them for years as draftees/RFAs is a LOT more attractive than shelling out $10-15 mill a year to try and get Urlacher and Jamal Williams to play for us. Especially since they'll take their hefty paychecks and retire about the time draft picks would be coming into their prime. That said, it might be necessary to look at a FA or two is possible to buy the draft picks time to mature and gain Pro experience (which is why I wanted Randall Godfrey as much as Sam Adams; I like talented vets, but I like 'em a lot more when they don't bust the cap).

But yeah, two First Day picks, two glaring positions of need. Get a TRUE NT (not a finesse blitzer like Warren/Kennedy/McKinley/Thomas and forcing him to play NT or cutting him) and a LB capable of excelling anywhere on the line (like the said Holdman was, though I never really bought that). Do that and the year older offense will have plenty of SB firepower, especially with another year on the Chrisses and Pears.

A middle linebacker for depth, I could see but not as a starter. Williams is getting the job done.

dogfish
09-19-2007, 11:42 AM
A middle linebacker for depth, I could see but not as a starter. Williams is getting the job done.

i agree. . . i don't want to see another wasted pick ala terry pierce-- he proved that not every MIKE can automatically be penciled in at SAM. . . i don't agree with morambar that we need a backup MIKE-- nate webster is more than capable, as he's playing well outside, but MIKE is his natural position. . . we have one of the league's best backup MIKEs right now-- what we need is better depth at OLB. . . and since dd lewis is a competent SAM if we ever have to switch webster over, the WILL spot is the one we really need to address-- definitely with some quality depth, preferably with a talented new starter. . .

TXBRONC
09-19-2007, 11:48 AM
i agree. . . i don't want to see another wasted pick ala terry pierce-- he proved that not every MIKE can automatically be penciled in at SAM. . . i don't agree with morambar that we need a backup MIKE-- nate webster is more than capable, as he's playing well outside, but MIKE is his natural position. . . we have one of the league's best backup MIKEs right now-- what we need is better depth at OLB. . . and since dd lewis is a competent SAM if we ever have to switch webster over, the WILL spot is the one we really need to address-- definitely with some quality depth, preferably with a talented new starter. . .

Speaking of Webster, I think he's doing a very good job as the SAM.

Lonestar
09-19-2007, 12:02 PM
Speaking of Webster, I think he's doing a very good job as the SAM.

Sure heard his name alot in announcing tackles. While I have not looked them up, I've heard his name and seen him around ball carriers alot.

Now I am concerned about Gold while he appears to have made some tackles in week two they seemed to be down field instead at the LOS.

I have not studied the game film so to speak but from what I remembered he was unable to disengage the blockers in his face.

DJ seems to be improving.

Now back on topic Thomas looks to be a budding star, Jarvis I did not see all that much so unsure of his growth Dumervil seemed to have preformed well.

My concerns are the DE might be doing well on pass rushes with lining up so far outside. That in itself causes alot of space for RB's to exploit. And so far the DT's do not seem to be clogging and being double teamed. I could be wrong here but that is my first impression.

topscribe
09-19-2007, 12:15 PM
Sure heard his name alot in announcing tackles. While I have not looked them up, I've heard his name and seen him around ball carriers alot.

Now I am concerned about Gold while he appears to have made some tackles in week two they seemed to be down field instead at the LOS.

I have not studied the game film so to speak but from what I remembered he was unable to disengage the blockers in his face.

DJ seems to be improving.

Now back on topic Thomas looks to be a budding star, Jarvis I did not see all that much so unsure of his growth Dumervil seemed to have preformed well.

My concerns are the DE might be doing well on pass rushes with lining up so far outside. That in itself causes alot of space for RB's to exploit. And so far the DT's do not seem to be clogging and being double teamed. I could be wrong here but that is my first impression.
You look to be pretty close to right on. Bates thinks Thomas is a future
Pro Bowler. For now, though, he is a rookie, one who was a year away from
having played football when he came to camp. The other two, Gordon and
Burton, will probably eventually be decent rotational players. Problem is,
except for Adams, there is not more than a grand total of two years
experience at the DT position. I believe this is one of the soft spots right
now. Adams can't do it alone. In fact, he finds himself in the same spot
Warren did the last couple years: no help. However, the level of raw talent
there is much higher this year, so perhaps that will solidify as they gain
experience and have a chance to jell.

Gold has wings on his feet. I haven't seen that kind of speed in a LB since
Tom Jackson. The difference is, Jackson was a good tackler. I hope we can
get a good WILL next year, and a decent trade for Gold.

It is understandable Wiliams would struggle for a while at MIKE. He had
never played the position in his life, and it is day and night from SAM. But
he has shown the last couple games that he is going to be a good one
there, IMO. He has physical gifts superior to what Wilson had. He just needs
to develop Wilson's exceptional field awareness. Once he does, we will have
another Pro Bowler there, IMO.

Regarding Webster, I said he was a starter all along. He is a player.


-----

TXBRONC
09-19-2007, 12:22 PM
You look to be pretty close to right on. Bates thinks Thomas is a future
Pro Bowler. For now, though, he is a rookie, one who was a year away from
having played football when he came to camp. The other two, Gordon and
Burton, will probably eventually be decent rotational players. Problem is,
except for Adams, there is not more than a grand total of two years
experience at the DT position. I believe this is one of the soft spots right
now. Adams can't do it alone. In fact, he finds himself in the same spot
Warren did the last couple years: no help. However, the level of raw talent
there is much higher this year, so perhaps that will solidify as they gain
experience and have a chance to jell.

Gold has wings on his feet. I haven't seen that kind of speed in a LB since
Tom Jackson. The difference is, Jackson was a good tackler. I hope we can
get a good WILL next year, and a decent trade for Gold.

It is understandable Wiliams would struggle for a while at MIKE. He had
never played the position in his life, and it is day and night from SAM. But
he has shown the last couple games that he is going to be a good one
there, IMO. He has physical gifts superior to what Wilson had. He just needs
to develop Wilson's exceptional field awareness. Once he does, we will have
another Pro Bowler there, IMO.

Regarding Webster, I said he was a starter all along. He is a player.


-----

Honestly D.J. doesn't seem to be struggling like he did in preseason. He had 10 tackles against the Bills and I wouldn't doubt if he was around double digits against the Raiders. I'm not saying he was because I haven't seen the game stats. However, what I am saying is it would not surprise if he did have double digit tackles against the Raiders.

underrated29
09-19-2007, 12:24 PM
what i think/hope we do is trade gold during the offseaon for idk his value, maybe a 3rd, 4th? and move dj back to his normal postition. and wither draft a mike or an olb. as someone said dj is a pimp, but he doesnt have that mentality to play mike- wilson and webster have that mentality.

I think our first picks should be lb, mike or sam-(by moving nate to mike, or drafting another mike, and dj back to normal) then we get bpa for a haas oline or dline.

imo we have 3 positions that need help, lb,oline,dline (in order)

we need help at safety, and another good wr and returner would be nice too.

But those should be later- we got our rb,qb,fb? cb,de, 2out of 3 lb,p,k- we just need to shore those few things up.

Requiem / The Dagda
09-19-2007, 12:28 PM
i posted this in another thread and i know you love the draft as much as i do dream what is your thought on it.

Defensive tackle is the hardest position to translate your college game into the NFL. Elite defensive tackles are rare. There are only a handful of them left in the league, so to get a great one you have to be extremely fortunate. However, these clog defensive tackles won't get that glory. They won't be known as the best out there, but they can seriously have an impact on how our system is ran.

For one, BJ Raji is academically inelligible this year and is redshirting. There goes one of the best nose tackle options in the draft. Secondly, Marcus Harrison was dismissed from Arkansas. There goes another top five or six option at defensive tackle in the draft. Throw in Frank Okam playing weak and uninspired, and some our best options are down the drain. Red Bryant would be a nice choice for the Broncos. He's coming off surgery, but he has been playing quite well this year coming up with a handful of tackles, a sack and a safety. I watched some of the Fresno State game and I was impressed by his play. I think he's a fringe Day One prospect, but he could rise because of the aforementioned questions at the position now.

I like Dre Moore, I think he's an ideal three technique player at the next level. He's around 310 pounds, he can get bigger - and he could possibly fit the bill here, but there are other options. Jason Shirley is another one of those guys, as you mentioned. He's big and he has some upside. He's a Day 2 prospect and we have extra picks in rounds four, five and seven. We could find a guy like him there. Frank Morton is a name I've been hearing a lot lately, and he's a big fatty nose tackle out of Tulane who would fit the bill here as well. I think he'll be there easily on Day 2.

However, I'm not going to disqualify defensive tackles because they aren't 310+ and might not be nose tackles. This class has some guys who are great players (better Cover 2 fits, and elsewhere) that could contribute to this ball club. Dorsey is a top ten, probably top five talent, so I won't count him - but then you have guys like Fluellen, Ellis and Pressley who are possible first-round talents, but likely Day One picks.

The bodies are there. A true nose tackle type would be best, but if we can get a guy who can hold his ground and has the frame to add on more weight, it's worth a shot there. Pressley and Fluellen would be those guys, although Fluellen is a classic Cover 2 defensive tackle.

I think linebacker is another part of the team that will be addressed. The Broncos were in love with my man Timmons from Florida State last year, and he was one of their top two prospects (ahead of Moss) in this past draft. Obviously, the Broncos are looking to upgrade somewhere. The need hasn't lessened, and I think with a strong linebacker class, the Broncos will be even more interested in upgrading. There are a plethora of names out there, and I won't bore you with them, but there are nice WLB, a few decent SLB and some MLB who can play inside or out who would be beneficial to the team.

Safety is an area that needs to be addressed, but the Day One value is very, very poor. Hefney out of Tennessee has played like garbage, Zbikowski is playing on a team that's struggling immensely, and I'm not impressed by a lot of the other guys. Maybe a Darien Williams or Josh Barrett on late Day One, but otherwise I'm not seeing the value. Quintin Demps and Bobbie Williams will likely rise and throw themselves into the mix, but I'd rather spent a couple of Day 2 selections on safety prospects than burn a first day selection on average prospects. The value in rounds three through five I'd say right now are pretty similar.

Offensive tackle is also an area of concern for me, and it happens to be a fantastic draft. I think as many as five offensive tackles will be drafted in the first round, and I do think that up to ten will be drafted on the first day. That's about about 10-15% of the Day One selections, which is impressive. A guy like Greco out of Toledo and Williams out of Vanderbilt would make a nice selection late on Day One, and there are some interesting guys on Day 2.

My concerns on wide receiver have lessened. Every week it seems like Marshall is improving and there's no doubt that he and Walker are the duo for the future. Stokley has been a blessing, but I think we'll be able to find a slot receiver and a couple other guys from our roster this year to replace him if he doesn't come back next season. I once considered receiver to be a big need, but after the play thus far - absolutely not. It'd be a luxury pick somewhere if we added a guy, and I could see a returner/receiver on Day Two - but no earlier.

I think we could upgrade multiple positions just to make the team better, but linebacker, defensive tackle and safety are the three big eye-poppers that are coming out at me right now. Regardless if we don't have a third, we have two fourths and two fifths that could be ammunition as well, and in reality, we'll have some great Day Two opportunities since the Raiders fifth-rounder will be extremely high.

Right now, I'd grab a linebacker in round one and look to upgrade either tackle position in round two. The tackle position we don't upgrade on Day One will be addressed in the fourth round, followed by a safety prospect. Throw in some skill position players with our fifths and sevenths and we'd have a nice draft. We need to upgrade special teams as well, and getting some players who can have some impact there would be nice. We have an ample opportunity to help fix it with our Day Two arsenal.

Overall, those are my thoughts thus far. We don't have that many weaknesses, and as always Denver will bring in a key FA acquisition or two, so the needs will vary based on that. Denver has the ability to make some big strides and splashes this off-season, and even with the escalation in salaries of our key players, getting rid of the big contracts in Jake, Al and Gerard will help big time come next off-season. I don't even worry about the cap anymore, since the Broncos always find ways to dabble and get the job done. The great franchises always do.

Requiem / The Dagda
09-19-2007, 12:33 PM
I'm not sure if I need to clarify Morambar's post (which was excellent) but he's not advocating that DJ gets replaced, but he's stating a good MLB prospect usually has the ability to play outside as well, especially at SAM. A guy like Goff or Hall would be a nice selection in Round Two to give us depth at multiple positions. That's one route I like going, but there are some great WILL prospects this year as well. Either way, Denver can grab a nice linebacker with their first two selections.

Requiem / The Dagda
09-19-2007, 12:40 PM
the problem is, according to dream (he's certainly not infalliable, but the guy does put in a lot of research, and the limited reading i've done so far backs him up in this case) this year's safety class looks to be very weak, especially at the top. . . while i'm not against addressing the position, i don't want to see us reach to fill that need when we still need help in the trenches on both sides of the ball, and IMO should look to upgrade the WILL linebacker spot as well. . . maybe we can find a gem in the rough on the second day, but our options for 1st day safeties may be limited if a few players don't emerge over the course of the college season. . .

luckily safety seems to be one of the positions where rookies can play right away and make an impact (either you have good instincts or you don't). . . right now lynch looks like he just might be able to give us another year past this one, and ferguson should be around at least another year or so. . . as top said, our safetes look pretty capable so far executing bates' scheme, where their heaviest responsibilities are in run support anyways-- having the corners we do lessens the coverage responsibilites of the safeties somewhat, although it did look like lynch was late over the top on the porter touchdown (i'm not sure exactly what defense we had called, or whether he was SUPPOSED to be providing that deep help). . .

kaylore and socal both raved about hamza abdullah in their camp reports, and i don't think we should assume that he can't become a capable starter until we've seen him actually get a chance. . . if nothing else, he may be able to at least buy us a year-- hopefully next year's safety class will be stronger, and if it is, waiting may turn out to be the smartest option. . . we could certainly take a developmental type on the second day in the meanwhile. . . we'll see what happens. . .

Thanks for the name drop, and you're research has proven to be correct too. I've seen at the most four senior prospects who are listed as Day One choices, throw in junior Kenny Phillips and that's only five guys. It's a very weak class, especially in comparison to last years.

The Mane boys, you and others are absolutely correct in their assessment on the responsibilities of the Bates safeties. Excel in run support, be able to cover your zones. I think our back-ups do that well, but I think we can still improve, and since Lynch and Ferguson won't be here more than another year after this. . . we need to draft young. I really like Barrett out of ASU because he's enormous, has good speed for his size and is a fiesty run defender and excels in zone coverage. That's what we need. He struggles in man coverage, but he's good where it counts, and I think he's a viable second round option if we really want to go that route on the first day. He's 6'3 - 230, and he's been estimated to run in the 4.55-4.6 area, but if he lost some weight, he'd gain some quickness and speed. I'd assume he'll try and do so for the combine.

There are only a handful of old positions on this team, and safety is clearly the oldest. Outside a few players, any one after the top three to five guys are in the same boat value wise. That's why we can wait, but I don't know if we want to wait forever. It's a position that should have been address with youth on a high priority a year or two ago.

Lonestar
09-19-2007, 12:51 PM
Honestly D.J. doesn't seem to be struggling like he did in preseason. He had 10 tackles against the Bills and I wouldn't doubt if he was around double digits against the Raiders. I'm not saying he was because I haven't seen the game stats. However, what I am saying is it would not surprise if he did have double digit tackles against the Raiders.


He had 5 and 3 assists whereas gold had 8-1 But my recollection was golds where from chasing someone down after positive yardage. I could be wrong here.


I think DJ will become better at Mike than Al was just because of the athlete he is. faster and stronger, Now can he make th right calls on Defense? that is another story unto itself. If he can't do it then there are others that can do also. No where is it cast in stone that the MLB has to make the calls for the defense. I suspect that John Lynch could do it also until next year and then pass it back to DJ or someone else.

Skinny
09-19-2007, 01:22 PM
Sure heard his name alot in announcing tackles. While I have not looked them up, I've heard his name and seen him around ball carriers alot.

Now I am concerned about Gold while he appears to have made some tackles in week two they seemed to be down field instead at the LOS.

I have not studied the game film so to speak but from what I remembered he was unable to disengage the blockers in his face.

DJ seems to be improving.

Now back on topic Thomas looks to be a budding star, Jarvis I did not see all that much so unsure of his growth Dumervil seemed to have preformed well.

My concerns are the DE might be doing well on pass rushes with lining up so far outside. That in itself causes alot of space for RB's to exploit. And so far the DT's do not seem to be clogging and being double teamed. I could be wrong here but that is my first impression.The play of the D-line Sunday was pathetic. Worst i've seen it play yet (through pre-season till now).

I've got to give Oakland's O-line most if not all of the credit though. Honestly, they just blew everyone up front off the ball.

Oaklands O-line has picked up their new ZBS quickly and near to perfection.

The main reason most of the tackles were down feild and not just Golds.

159 yards on just 25 carries for Jordan bout sums that all that up (6.4 yards a carry BTW).

underrated29
09-19-2007, 01:26 PM
DREAM,


since we are all pretty sure that lynch and fergy are going to stick it out at least one more year would it not be wise to wait on s for this upcomming draft since 1. our starters will most likely still be playing,and 2. this is a weak class.

that way we can use our extra picks to shore up oline and get some depth. I am not totaling discounting drafting saftey as it is a need that has gone untouched to long. But we have other more important needs right now imo, and would be better to wait 1 more year, and possibly a better draft class.

Watchthemiddle
09-19-2007, 01:31 PM
Thanks for the name drop, and you're research has proven to be correct too. I've seen at the most four senior prospects who are listed as Day One choices, throw in junior Kenny Phillips and that's only five guys. It's a very weak class, especially in comparison to last years.

The Mane boys, you and others are absolutely correct in their assessment on the responsibilities of the Bates safeties. Excel in run support, be able to cover your zones. I think our back-ups do that well, but I think we can still improve, and since Lynch and Ferguson won't be here more than another year after this. . . we need to draft young. I really like Barrett out of ASU because he's enormous, has good speed for his size and is a fiesty run defender and excels in zone coverage. That's what we need. He struggles in man coverage, but he's good where it counts, and I think he's a viable second round option if we really want to go that route on the first day. He's 6'3 - 230, and he's been estimated to run in the 4.55-4.6 area, but if he lost some weight, he'd gain some quickness and speed. I'd assume he'll try and do so for the combine.

There are only a handful of old positions on this team, and safety is clearly the oldest. Outside a few players, any one after the top three to five guys are in the same boat value wise. That's why we can wait, but I don't know if we want to wait forever. It's a position that should have been address with youth on a high priority a year or two ago.

Barrett....I was noticing him during the CU / ASU game. He is big. In the early running for the Thorpe award. Not that he will get it, but ranked high among defensive backs coming out.

It doesn't seem like SHanahan has ever really put too much emphasis on drafting safeties. Maybe he just likes to pick them up in free agency. I prefer to draft one. Much like Atwater and D. SMith were.

Requiem / The Dagda
09-19-2007, 02:03 PM
DREAM,


since we are all pretty sure that lynch and fergy are going to stick it out at least one more year would it not be wise to wait on s for this upcomming draft since 1. our starters will most likely still be playing,and 2. this is a weak class.

that way we can use our extra picks to shore up oline and get some depth. I am not totaling discounting drafting saftey as it is a need that has gone untouched to long. But we have other more important needs right now imo, and would be better to wait 1 more year, and possibly a better draft class.

Well, this is Ferguson's last year (contract) in Denver. Lynch is still good enough to play another year, and is under contract until the end of the 2008 season, so I see him being here as well. However, I'd like to see Denver invest a choice on a player so they can at least have the opportunity to learn from a guy like John for a season, and then go into his role. Where rookie safeties starting is common, I still like players to get experience and learn something from their fellow players.

The top end talent in this draft sucks, but there are middle-round guys who can come in, play special teams and possibly even see some playing time in basic defensive packages. Waiting for another year would be a good idea if we're looking to address it early, but we can find good players in rounds four or five who can have an impact on this team in some way.

That's why I suggested something like this. . .

Round One - Linebacker
Round Two - Tackle (Offensive / Defensive)
Round Four - Tackle (Defensive / Offensive)
Round Four - Safety
Round Five - Offensive Ammunition (RB, WR)
Round Five - Special Teams Help (RB, WR, LB, S)
Round Seven - BPA
Round Seven - BPA

It really all depends. O'Brien was actually denied this year on getting his special team pick he was promised, so I assume he'll get one or two this year. Denver is in dire need of an explosive return game, and there are some names out there, but it's too bad they'll be high selections.

I don't expect Denver to keep all their selections, but they could really benefit from six day two selections. Special teams needs a lot of help, and you can get players who excel in that arena on Day 2 to come in and make some noise.

Watchthemiddle
09-19-2007, 02:18 PM
6 day two picks? WOW that is awesome.

That is where your foundation is made as a team. 1st and 2nd round picks don't always pan out. Football players are in the 4th - 7th IMO.

TXBRONC
09-19-2007, 03:16 PM
what i think/hope we do is trade gold during the offseaon for idk his value, maybe a 3rd, 4th? and move dj back to his normal postition. and wither draft a mike or an olb. as someone said dj is a pimp, but he doesnt have that mentality to play mike- wilson and webster have that mentality.

I think our first picks should be lb, mike or sam-(by moving nate to mike, or drafting another mike, and dj back to normal) then we get bpa for a haas oline or dline.

imo we have 3 positions that need help, lb,oline,dline (in order)

we need help at safety, and another good wr and returner would be nice too.

But those should be later- we got our rb,qb,fb? cb,de, 2out of 3 lb,p,k- we just need to shore those few things up.


I could not disagree more, D.J. has the mentality to play the Mike position. Whomever has suggested that to you I believe is mistake from what I have seen.

Requiem / The Dagda
09-19-2007, 03:26 PM
I could not disagree more, D.J. has the mentality to play the Mike position. Whomever has suggested that to you I believe is mistake from what I have seen.

Ever since his days at Miami, Williams had a tough time in the mental aspect of football. He's relied on his physical abilities too much, and there have always been questions regarding the mental aptitude to excel in the NFL. D.J. is a smart player, and has assumed to the role of MIKE and done a pretty good job thus far. He's still growing, but the noted concerns regarding his ability to mentally live up to standards in the middle, which is such a cerebral position are justified and valid.

topscribe
09-19-2007, 03:26 PM
I could not disagree more, D.J. has the mentality to play the Mike position. Whomever has suggested that to you I believe is mistake from what I have seen.
The very first comment I read from Bates regardng D.J. was about his superior
mentality. He said D.J. seemed to spot things before he (Bates) did. People
just don't understand the extreme complexity and difficulty of the MLB
position. They seem to think the transition from SLB to MLB is moving a few
feet to the right. Although none of the positions on the field is "easy," the SLB
position is one of the easier, relative to other positions, whereas MLB is one
of the most difficult, perhaps the most difficult after QB and CB.

People have got to just give D.J. a little transition time. :tsk:

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topscribe
09-19-2007, 03:30 PM
Ever since his days at Miami, Williams had a tough time in the mental aspect of football. He's relied on his physical abilities too much, and there have always been questions regarding the mental aptitude to excel in the NFL. D.J. is a smart player, and has assumed to the role of MIKE and done a pretty good job thus far. He's still growing, but the noted concerns regarding his ability to mentally live up to standards in the middle, which is such a cerebral position are justified and valid.
Not according to Bates, who knows D.J. better than all of us put together.

(See my previous comment.)

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underrated29
09-19-2007, 03:50 PM
dont get me wrong i am a huge dj fan. i also think he will be GREAT as a mike. HE does have all the physical aspects of a premier lb. he also has the smarts as to which you have alluded.

what i was getting at is the nasty streak. that pissed off bring it, mentality, who wants to go out there and destroy the ball carrier. someone who wants to be on the field for every play and wants to be in on every tackle. wilson had it, webster looks like he has it, dj doesnt seem to.

i might have missed it, or he could play the role a little differently. which is fine. but if thats the case maybe we should move him over and draft a hard nose guy.

i just think that dj might be thinking to much instead of playing off instinct, both have their pros and cons.

Requiem / The Dagda
09-19-2007, 03:54 PM
Not according to Bates, who knows D.J. better than all of us put together.

-----

I'd be interested in the citation of those quotes, because there is certainly a difference between having the mental aptitude to succeed at a certain position, and having the right mentality in approaching the position. Two completely different arenas. Secondly, why in the world would Bates ever say he can't "do it" mentally? Those are comments coaches keep between themselves and the players at the annual end of the year meetings, that doesn't go out in the press.

You're free to disagree with me though, but I why would I feel the need to lie? It's been well-documented in various draft reports from scouts and analysts across the board. (You're free to search them for varification, I think you'll see common phrases like "Often over pursues. . . needs to improve play recognition.) Does that say he doesn't have the ability to play cerebral positions? No. It just states that he may have a hard time adjusting, and that there will be growing pains involved. Obviously there were.

If that wasn't true, why would Bates be on record saying that through the pre-season, D.J. had a hard time progressing and it was a "slow process" but after a while, he kicked it up and he started growing into the position. I understand completely (as I mentioned how cerebral it was) how tough it is, as does Williams and Bates.


"It was a slow process, and then in the third game is where he picked it up," said assistant head coach/defense Jim Bates, who has installed a new scheme that will get its first regular-season test. "He's progressing. You can see it every day on the practice field, that he's growing with the position and getting more comfortable with it.

"And what has to happen is, the speed of the game has to slow down mentally to where you just react and there's no thinking involved. Through the last week in practice and the third game of the preseason, he's making that progress."

That's why they are talking about it, and continue to talk about it. That's why people were talking about it since DJ left Miami and was drafted by the Broncos in 2004 with the 17th Selection in the NFL Draft.

I never said that D.J. Williams didn't have the ability to play MIKE, because he certainly does and I think he's natural there, but dismissing the questions around his mental capacity to play the MIKE position is erroneous because it was the main center of attention when he was given the opportunity to win the job in the first place, and has been his "?" since leaving the Hurricanes.

Every player has questions about them, and Williams happens to be the mental ability to succeed and fulfill his potential in the NFL. I'm confident he does, and I know he will. He's on pace for a great season, and I expect him to get Pro-Bowl consideration.

Requiem / The Dagda
09-19-2007, 04:00 PM
what i was getting at is the nasty streak. that pissed off bring it, mentality, who wants to go out there and destroy the ball carrier. someone who wants to be on the field for every play and wants to be in on every tackle. wilson had it, webster looks like he has it, dj doesnt seem to.

This is what Williams has to say about having a nasty streak to succeed. . .


"I disagree with that. I played with Jonathan Vilma and he's a great middle linebacker, and I know from going to college with him, he's not a mean guy," Williams said about the New York Jets' middle linebacker. "I think you have to be tough between the lines and know your assignment, but you don't have to be mean and cussing guys out and yelling all the time. I'm a man. I can stand up for myself, and I'm going to play hard and play tough."


i might have missed it, or he could play the role a little differently. which is fine. but if thats the case maybe we should move him over and draft a hard nose guy.

i just think that dj might be thinking to much instead of playing off instinct, both have their pros and cons.

Again, a nice point. Here's what our coach (LB) had to say about this. . .


"Honestly, D.J. is such a conscientious guy that some of it was just him holding himself back because he wanted to be exactly right," Broncos linebackers coach Joe Baker said. "So in some ways, he was inhibiting his own instincts because he was trying to make sure that he was correct on the blackboard instead of just going out and playing ball. That's part of the growth process."

Once again, thinking too much directly relates to the mental aspect of the game. Some people can't think at all, some people think too much. As I mentioned, D.J. is a smart guy, but thinking too much has hurt him in over pursuit in plays. He's grown a lot through the pre-season into the first two games. I think he's done pretty well. I hope he continues.

topscribe
09-19-2007, 04:01 PM
I'd be interested in the citation of those quotes, because there is certainly a difference between having the mental aptitude to succeed at a certain position, and having the right mentality in approaching the position. Two completely different arenas. Secondly, why in the world would Bates ever say he can't "do it" mentally? Those are comments coaches keep between themselves and the players at the annual end of the year meetings, that doesn't go out in the press.


First, why would Bates make such a remark if, in his years and years of
experience, he didn't sincerely believe it? I know the old comeback, "They are
always going to say nice things." But that is certainly above and beyond a
"nice thing." Bates didn't just say, "Oh yeah, he can do it." He went into a
dissertation on how intelligent D.J. is and how he picks up and understands
just everything. To doubt that is an absurd assumption.

Second, I never kept the citation nor the link to it. But, after 20,000+ posts on
the board from where we came, I believe my credibility and integrity should
be unquestionable enough not to doubt my seeing what I said I saw.

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underrated29
09-19-2007, 04:12 PM
I HAVE NOT SEEN That before, but i like it. it shows he has confidence and will stand up for himself. although to have a mean streak doesnt mean they have to cuss people out, and yell all the time. I dont mean mean streak like romo, just mean enough like wilson.

but as agreed i think he will do fine. which brings me back to my original question of drafting a lb next year do we draft for sam? or do we move dj back to will and take a mike.

i know it dpends who is available,and their skill set, but what if we have a couple in mind like last year and need to trade up?

Requiem / The Dagda
09-19-2007, 04:13 PM
First, why would Bates make such a remark if, in his years and years of
experience, he didn't sincerely believe it? I know the old comeback, "They are
always going to say nice things." But that is certainly above and beyond a
"nice thing." To doubt that is an absurd assumption.

I'm just curious to read the exact quotation. I'm a "see it to believe it" type feller. I have a hard time accepting things without documentation. Like I said, there's a difference between mental capacity and mentality towards a position. For example, D.J. is a cerebral guy - but he thinks too much, and he enjoys playing WILL and MIKE. However, he had an adverse mentality towards playing SAM. Secondly, we could bring up Gerard Warren. All-around-retard, with a poor mentality for playing certain techniques in a given defense. Mr. Sullivan would fit into this mix as well.


Second, I have been out there on the field on defense, at the college level. I am probably far more versed in what is involved in performing at a given posiition, physically and mentally, than the person who has not.

I don't give a hoot if you played for the Florida Gators National Championship team. You played defensive end? So what. I played football for numerous years, and I understand how cerebral of a position MIKE is. Did I ever play MIKE? Nope, but I know people who did and I do understand how complex it is. I think anyone who loves or ever played football understands that. Just because you played in college doesn't mean you have a better understanding of how "cerebral" it actually is. Then again, I was a safety - I let the front seven make my job easier, they did the hard stuff. ;)


Third, I never kept the citation nor the link to it. But, after 20,000+ posts on
the board from where we came, I believe my credibility and integrity should
be unquestionable enough not to doubt my seeing what I said I saw.

Post count has nothing to do with credibility, it's what you say that matters. If you're not willing to do research and back up your statement, that's a pity. It's a waste of a good argument and debate worth having.

If you don't think there are questions surrounding Williams mental capacity to play the MIKE position, you're just lying to yourself. Why do you think there was such a hoot and a holler about it during the off-season? For kicks and giggles? No, because there was a justified reason and concern regarding his ability to play the position.

Physically dominating, but could he handle it mentally? Thus far, I think he's proven he can, but the concerns were and are still there whether you like to believe it or not.

Requiem / The Dagda
09-19-2007, 04:18 PM
but as agreed i think he will do fine. which brings me back to my original question of drafting a lb next year do we draft for sam? or do we move dj back to will and take a mike.


i know it dpends who is available,and their skill set, but what if we have a couple in mind like last year and need to trade up?


Yep, I also think he'll do just fine - but the concerns on D.J. are well noted and documented. His physical abilities were never question, his mental were. Everyone is free to do their own research on that if they please.

Denver could draft any sort of linebacker they want. For example, last year they were interested in Lawrence Timmons from Florida State who could have played either outside position. Flexibility works well here. As you can see, Ian is the only guy on our roster who doesn't have versatility, (although he played SAM for the Buccaneers, he's strictly a WILL.) It just has to be an athletic guy with versatility. Williams and Webster fit those roles, so it has to be a guy who can play either outside position, or an inside guy who can make due at either.

If you remember, Al Wilson played SLB for Tennessee, and wasn't a MIKE. He assumed to that role and did a great job for the Broncos. There are plenty of viable options, it really just matters on the Broncos personal preference, and how they feel about the players we currently have. Considering they were looking at a SAM/WILL guy last year, I'd assume that's still the plan for 2008.

In regards to trading up, if the Broncos feel they have to do it, they'll do it. The past two years in the draft show that the Broncos aren't shy about trading away value to get the players they want on their team. Hence the Broncos trading two third-rounders and three day two selections just to ensure getting Thomas and Moss. (Also, the Broncos trading up to get Cutler, and making other draft moves such as trading for Javon Walker.) That's one of the things I respect about the organization the most. Their willingness to be aggressive and make change if needed. Some teams are very reserved in regards to that process, but the Broncos have been extremely active over the past few years. I don't know what it is, but Denver has placed an important emphasis on younger players on their team over the past several years, dating back to the year D.J. was selected. Part of it, in my opinion - is that the team has been aging, and secondly - they finally understand the importance of the draft.

It'll be very interesting.

I was without my computer this past weekend, so I wasn't able to put up my prospect report focusing on linebackers, and this Saturday I have my Coaching Seminar all day so I'm going to miss most of the games, besides the night ones. But don't worry man, there are some great options for the Broncos this year. :)

underrated29
09-19-2007, 04:24 PM
First, why would Bates make such a remark if, in his years and years of
experience, he didn't sincerely believe it? I know the old comeback, "They are
always going to say nice things." But that is certainly above and beyond a
"nice thing." Bates didn't just say, "Oh yeah, he can do it." He went into a
dissertation on how intelligent D.J. is and how he picks up and understands
just everything. To doubt that is an absurd assumption.

Second, I never kept the citation nor the link to it. But, after 20,000+ posts on
the board from where we came, I believe my credibility and integrity should
be unquestionable enough not to doubt my seeing what I said I saw.

-----


i believe you tops, and i believe what bates said. and i think we all expect great things, and will see them too. the only thing as dream said, and you is over thinking.

i dont know if you watch hockey at all, but i would compare this too either milan hejduk or marek svatos- milan has had great years, but the year before past he was in a slump. marek svatos finished year before last on fire, and also started last year on fire as well. But both unfortunately started to overthink a bit, and started to hold the puck longer and look for more passes, while slowing down their feet. you could tell they were thinking. Of course the great ones can do that and get away with it. aka joe sackic, peter forsberg.

last year, milan put the thinking in the backseat and started to just plain skate. He started moving his feet again, and instead of always looking for the pass he would just drive and drive to the net. Because of his such agressive play he scored more goals and really helped out the team.

dj can do the same,(be a great like joe or peter) but is that what the mike should do? or would that skill set be better served as a willie?



i guess a better analogy would be peryton manning vs brett farve- one thinks, the other throws- which one is the best for that position? i dont know, thats what i am getting at here with dj

topscribe
09-19-2007, 04:26 PM
I'm just curious to read the exact quotation. I'm a "see it to believe it" type feller. I have a hard time accepting things without documentation. Like I said, there's a difference between mental capacity and mentality towards a position. For example, D.J. is a cerebral guy - but he thinks too much, and he enjoys playing WILL and MIKE. However, he had an adverse mentality towards playing SAM. Secondly, we could bring up Gerard Warren. All-around-retard, with a poor mentality for playing certain techniques in a given defense. Mr. Sullivan would fit into this mix as well.
I know "cerebral" is quite a buzzword for you. As I said, I never kept the
citation, I would not know where it is, and I don't think it is important
enough to go beating the bushes for it now. But if I said I saw it, I saw it.
I don't personally care whether your not you accept that.


I don't give a hoot if you played for the Florida Gators National Championship team. You played defensive end? So what. I played football for numerous years, and I understand how cerebral of a position MIKE is. Did I ever play MIKE? Nope, but I know people who did and I do understand how complex it is. I think anyone who loves or ever played football understands that. Just because you played in college doesn't mean you have a better understanding of how "cerebral" it actually is. Then again, I was a safety - I let the front seven make my job easier, they did the hard stuff. ;)There you go again with your "cerebral" crap. Football is instincts. It is not
chess. It is not quantum physics. MLB is the ability to see it and do it.


Post count has nothing to do with credibility, it's what you say that matters. If you're not willing to do research and back up your statement, that's a pity. It's a waste of a good argument and debate worth having.
Had you inferred my comment simply as I stated it, you would have
understood that what I meant was you have 20,000+ posts to judge the
degree of my credibility. See, that is part of what I taught in English:
reading comprehension. Spend enough time and give the writer enough
credit to come to a realization of what he/she is actually saying . . . either
that or don't read it.

Nonetheless, you are talking to someone who had his M.S. before your
daddy entered high school. So you are saying I am not willng to research?
That is a very personal remark. You can do better than that.


If you don't think there are questions surrounding Williams mental capacity to play the MIKE position, you're just lying to yourself. Why do you think there was such a hoot and a holler about it during the off-season? For kicks and giggles? No, because there was a justified reason and concern regarding his ability to play the position.

Physically dominating, but could he handle it mentally? Thus far, I think he's proven he can, but the concerns were and are still there whether you like to believe it or not.I merely repeated what I read from what Bates said. If you think you know
more than he, then I suggest you attempt to contact him.

If you can give Bates and me a little credibilty for knowing what we are
talking about, too, then we can talk. Until then, this discussion is over.

-----

Watchthemiddle
09-19-2007, 04:26 PM
i believe you tops, and i believe what bates said. and i think we all expect great things, and will see them too. the only thing as dream said, and you is over thinking.

i dont know if you watch hockey at all, but i would compare this too either milan hejduk or marek svatos- milan has had great years, but the year before past he was in a slump. marek svatos finished year before last on fire, and also started last year on fire as well. But both unfortunately started to overthink a bit, and started to hold the puck longer and look for more passes, while slowing down their feet. you could tell they were thinking. Of course the great ones can do that and get away with it. aka joe sackic, peter forsberg.

last year, milan put the thinking in the backseat and started to just plain skate. He started moving his feet again, and instead of always looking for the pass he would just drive and drive to the net. Because of his such agressive play he scored more goals and really helped out the team.

dj can do the same,(be a great like joe or peter) but is that what the mike should do? or would that skill set be better served as a willie?



i guess a better analogy would be peryton manning vs brett farve- one thinks, the other throws- which one is the best for that position? i dont know, thats what i am getting at here with dj


Absolutely GREAT analogy for us Avs fans. THat was perfect. :beer:

Sometimes players do overthink things because SOOOO much is thrown at them at once. ONce they settle down, let their athleticism take over, and then take what they have been taught do they excell.

underrated29
09-19-2007, 04:31 PM
Yep, I also think he'll do just fine - but the concerns on D.J. are well noted and documented. His physical abilities were never question, his mental were. Everyone is free to do their own research on that if they please.

Denver could draft any sort of linebacker they want. For example, last year they were interested in Lawrence Timmons from Florida State who could have played either outside position. Flexibility works well here. As you can see, Ian is the only guy on our roster who doesn't have versatility, (although he played SAM for the Buccaneers, he's strictly a WILL.) It just has to be an athletic guy with versatility. Williams and Webster fit those roles, so it has to be a guy who can play either outside position, or an inside guy who can make due at either.

If you remember, Al Wilson played SLB for Tennessee, and wasn't a MIKE. He assumed to that role and did a great job for the Broncos. There are plenty of viable options, it really just matters on the Broncos personal preference, and how they feel about the players we currently have. Considering they were looking at a SAM/WILL guy last year, I'd assume that's still the plan for 2008.

In regards to trading up, if the Broncos feel they have to do it, they'll do it. The past two years in the draft show that the Broncos aren't shy about trading away value to get the players they want on their team. Hence the Broncos trading two third-rounders and three day two selections just to ensure getting Thomas and Moss. (Also, the Broncos trading up to get Cutler, and making other draft moves such as trading for Javon Walker.) That's one of the things I respect about the organization the most. Their willingness to be aggressive and make change if needed. Some teams are very reserved in regards to that process, but the Broncos have been extremely active over the past few years. I don't know what it is, but Denver has placed an important emphasis on younger players on their team over the past several years, dating back to the year D.J. was selected. Part of it, in my opinion - is that the team has been aging, and secondly - they finally understand the importance of the draft.

It'll be very interesting.

I was without my computer this past weekend, so I wasn't able to put up my prospect report focusing on linebackers, and this Saturday I have my Coaching Seminar all day so I'm going to miss most of the games, besides the night ones. But don't worry man, there are some great options for the Broncos this year. :)


i'll be excited to see it.

were gonna be real good. :elephant:...:elefant:

jhns
09-19-2007, 04:43 PM
Why is there so much complaint about DJ now? I understand people starting that in the preseason when he is transitioning to a new position and people are scepticle. I do not see why it is happening now when he is playing very well. All of the linebackers have been playing exceptionally well this year in fact. The run defense is not the linebackers fault right now. Bates has already come out and said that it is the d-tackles not holding their blockers and allowing for a lot of traffic in what is supposed to be an open space for the linebackers to get the ball. In his system the d-tackles have to hold the point or the run is going to kill his defense.

Why complain and over-analys stuff that is going good for us? I will make a promiss to everyone that DJ is not going to be replaced if he stays at the level he is playing right now. Since it is most likely that he will improve, considering this is the first time he has even played middle, I highly doubt he will be going anywhere for a long time. That of course is without injury or arrests playing a role in him leaving.


It will also be interesting to see if poeple will lay off our staff about their drafts now that the last few are looking successful. The death of Williams kind of hurts it but that is not because he wasn't good at football. It is looking like all of these picks will be contributors for a long time and the past 2 drafts before this one are looking about the same. I think this team has come a long way with its drafting habits.

underrated29
09-19-2007, 05:09 PM
I AGREe john, i was just discussing that as we will most likely draft lb with one of our top picks next year which one we should choose. position wise i mean.

do we go after a mike and move dj back to his will, or go sam and keep everything as is. or go with a player who does both as dream said might be the case.

i have always had confidence in dj and the broncos and their drafts. i still love the pick of clarett. (wish he wouldnt have been an idiot, but a good pick nonetheless)

so if i came off sounding in anyway that i dont like dj, our drafting or anything else, its not what i meant to be percieved.

TXBRONC
09-19-2007, 05:18 PM
I Agree john, i was just discussing that as we will most likely draft lb with one of our top picks next year which one we should choose. position wise i mean.

do we go after a mike and move DJ back to his will, or go SAM and keep everything as is. or go with a player who does both as dream said might be the case.

i have always had confidence in DJ and the broncos and their drafts. i still love the pick of clarett. (wish he wouldn't have been an idiot, but a good pick nonetheless)

so if i came off sounding in anyway that i don't like DJ, our drafting or anything else, its not what i meant to be perceived.

What is it that's leading you to believe we will most likely choose a linebacker early in the draft?

Honestly with Shanahan wouldn't bank on it. Besides that by year's end some other position may jump to the top of the list.

Unless D.J. has a meltdown I don't expect he will be moved again.

dogfish
09-19-2007, 05:31 PM
I AGREe john, i was just discussing that as we will most likely draft lb with one of our top picks next year which one we should choose. position wise i mean.

do we go after a mike and move dj back to his will, or go sam and keep everything as is. or go with a player who does both as dream said might be the case.

i have always had confidence in dj and the broncos and their drafts. i still love the pick of clarett. (wish he wouldnt have been an idiot, but a good pick nonetheless)

so if i came off sounding in anyway that i dont like dj, our drafting or anything else, its not what i meant to be percieved.


if dj keeps playing the way he has been, i see no chance that he gets moved again. . . MIKE is the most important LB position in bates' defense, if you have a guy there who's doing well you don't mess with it. . . besides which, it's time to stop moving dj around and let him settle in-- i believe that constantly having to learn new positions has slowed his development to this point. . . if we draft a 'backer-- and i believe we will-- i'm willing to bet it's an explosive playmaker to replace gold at the WILL. . .

good to have you over here, BTW!

:beer:



What is it that's leading you to believe we will most likely choose a linebacker early in the draft?

Honestly with Shanahan wouldn't bank on it. Besides that by year's end some other position may jump to the top of the list.

Unless D.J. has a meltdown I don't expect he will be moved again.

c'mon TX, you know shanny will jump at any excuse to spend a high draft pick on a linebacker. . . . :laugh:

TXBRONC
09-19-2007, 05:36 PM
if dj keeps playing the way he has been, i see no chance that he gets moved again. . . MIKE is the most important LB position in bates' defense, if you have a guy there who's doing well you don't mess with it. . . besides which, it's time to stop moving dj around and let him settle in-- i believe that constantly having to learn new positions has slowed his development to this point. . . if we draft a 'backer-- and i believe we will-- i'm willing to bet it's an explosive playmaker to replace gold at the WILL. . .

good to have you over here, BTW!

:beer:




c'mon TX, you know shanny will jump at any excuse to spend a high draft pick on a linebacker. . . . :laugh:

Oh yeah, just like Jessica Alba adores me. :laugh:

underrated29
09-19-2007, 06:01 PM
Oh yeah, just like Jessica Alba adores me. :laugh:



well i hope so, because unless we trade, or as you said another hole appears, lets hope that doesnt happen, lb is a top priority.

we had lb targeted this year according to dream. (which i belive).

we waited until almost game 1 to finally figure out our starting sam (webster).

who was a backup, and there was a battle going on with holdman and dd lewis. i dont know much about either, but from what most members said neither was something to get excited about.

and in jim bates defense linebackers are the staple. we got the dline, we could use another fatty in there, but the guys we got now are good enough to get by. what we need is another monster lb to close everything else up.

thats why myself and some of the other (much better at analysis and drafting and needs) think that lb and oline and dline will most likley be our top few picks.

Lonestar
09-19-2007, 06:03 PM
Why is there so much complaint about DJ now? I understand people starting that in the preseason when he is transitioning to a new position and people are scepticle. I do not see why it is happening now when he is playing very well. All of the linebackers have been playing exceptionally well this year in fact. The run defense is not the linebackers fault right now. Bates has already come out and said that it is the d-tackles not holding their blockers and allowing for a lot of traffic in what is supposed to be an open space for the linebackers to get the ball. In his system the d-tackles have to hold the point or the run is going to kill his defense.

Why complain and over-analys stuff that is going good for us? I will make a promiss to everyone that DJ is not going to be replaced if he stays at the level he is playing right now. Since it is most likely that he will improve, considering this is the first time he has even played middle, I highly doubt he will be going anywhere for a long time. That of course is without injury or arrests playing a role in him leaving.


It will also be interesting to see if poeple will lay off our staff about their drafts now that the last few are looking successful. The death of Williams kind of hurts it but that is not because he wasn't good at football. It is looking like all of these picks will be contributors for a long time and the past 2 drafts before this one are looking about the same. I think this team has come a long way with its drafting habits.

I believe that it is I that your referring.

Yes his last three drafts so far have turned out pretty good SAVE clarice the RB.

But that still does not take him off the hook quite yet.

Many of his picks stick around a couple of years being minor contributors opposed to being starters or major contributors. That trend has by broken I think with last years draft.

Although many on here and BM want to make Darrent a saint and what happened to him is a tragedy many prior to the end of the season were calling for foxworth to start.

Requiem / The Dagda
09-19-2007, 06:08 PM
What is it that's leading you to believe we will most likely choose a linebacker early in the draft?

Honestly with Shanahan wouldn't bank on it. Besides that by year's end some other position may jump to the top of the list.

Unless D.J. has a meltdown I don't expect he will be moved again.

Considering Lawrence Timmons was one of our top two prospects overall as a LB in last years draft, I don't think that our need has lessened.

TXBRONC
09-19-2007, 06:11 PM
Considering Lawrence Timmons was one of our top two prospects overall as a LB in last years draft, I don't think that our need has lessened.


Called best available athlete I don't think we have the problem you think we have.

TXBRONC
09-19-2007, 06:20 PM
well i hope so, because unless we trade, or as you said another hole appears, lets hope that doesnt happen, lb is a top priority.

we had lb targeted this year according to dream. (which i belive).

we waited until almost game 1 to finally figure out our starting sam (webster).

who was a backup, and there was a battle going on with holdman and dd lewis. i dont know much about either, but from what most members said neither was something to get excited about.

and in jim bates defense linebackers are the staple. we got the dline, we could use another fatty in there, but the guys we got now are good enough to get by. what we need is another monster lb to close everything else up.

thats why myself and some of the other (much better at analysis and drafting and needs) think that lb and oline and dline will most likley be our top few picks.


It looks like linebacker isn't a need. There was an unknown factor at SAM because it was the position that was wide open. But Webster is showing why he is a very capable of handling it.

Requiem / The Dagda
09-19-2007, 06:34 PM
Called best available athlete I don't think we have the problem you think we have.

You're free to disagree with me, but you're not drafting in the first-round for "best available athlete" (not even a real term, best player available would be) you're drafting at a position where you think there needs to be improvement. Obviously, with Timmons so high on their board, they felt like linebacker was a need.

What additions to the team have changed that?

topscribe
09-19-2007, 06:45 PM
You're free to disagree with me, but you're not drafting in the first-round for "best available athlete" (not even a real term, best player available would be) you're drafting at a position where you think there needs to be improvement. Obviously, with Timmons so high on their board, they felt like linebacker was a need.

What additions to the team have changed that?
Well, there's the excellent play of Webster and continual improvement of
Williams. The LB situation looks a lot better than it did when Denver had to
cut Wilson.

But there is still a need. I do believe we need to upgrade the WILL position,
and I'm not sold on the depth at LB. Looks to me we might need to make more
than one selection there, or get aggressive in FA again, or both..

-----

Requiem / The Dagda
09-19-2007, 06:54 PM
Well, there's the excellent play of Webster and continual improvement of
Williams. The LB situation looks a lot better than it did when Denver had to
cut Wilson.

But there is still a need. I do believe we need to upgrade the WILL position,
and I'm not sold on the depth at LB. Looks to me we might need to make more
than one selection there, or get aggressive in FA again, or both..

-----

Webster has done surprisingly well, but I still don't believe it's justification enough to not draft a linebacker. There are some options in free agency and this is a great draft for linebackers, so I would not be surprised to see some movement in either arena. At any case, Websters contract expires not this year, but next - so it'd be nice to have a viable option waiting in the wings for 2009, or even someone to contest immediately next year.

Much to my chagrin, Ian Gold is under contract until 2010, but I still have the suspicion he'll be moved. I don't expect him to play out the contract until he's 32/33 years old.

I think we'll see some investment in the linebacker arena via FA or the draft, especially since it's a strong draft, and there are a few quality guys coming in the FA pool. Karlos Dansby is one, unless he re-signed with Arizona.

Lonestar
09-19-2007, 06:59 PM
Well, there's the excellent play of Webster and continual improvement of
Williams. The LB situation looks a lot better than it did when Denver had to
cut Wilson.

But there is still a need. I do believe we need to upgrade the WILL position,
and I'm not sold on the depth at LB. Looks to me we might need to make more
than one selection there, or get aggressive in FA again, or both..

-----

Yet I do not believe that we need to sell the farm to get one the second choice or second day pick will probably do for now. But by 2009 we need to re-sign or draft a bunch of LB's

here is the money speak
2007
Player Name Position Team Compensation
Gold, Ian LB DB 2300000.00
Green, Louis LB DB 550000.00
Holdman, Warrick LB DB 720000.00
Lewis, De'Andre LB DB 595000.00
Webster, Nate LB DB 770000.00
Williams, D.J. LB DB 650000.00
Winborn, Jamie LB DB 595000.00

2008 Player Name Position Team Compensation
Gold, Ian LB DB 2750000.00
Green, Louis LB DB 850000.00
Holdman, Warrick LB DB 1000000.00
Webster, Nate LB DB 780000.00
Williams, D.J. LB DB 850000.00

2009
Player Name Position Team Compensation
Gold, Ian LB DB 3400000.00
Green, Louis LB DB 850000.00
Williams, D.J. LB DB 1050000.00


http://www.nflpa.org/Resources/ActivePlayerSearch.aspx

dogfish
09-19-2007, 07:01 PM
Webster has done surprisingly well, but I still don't believe it's justification enough to not draft a linebacker. There are some options in free agency and this is a great draft for linebackers, so I would not be surprised to see some movement in either arena. At any case, Websters contract expires not this year, but next - so it'd be nice to have a viable option waiting in the wings for 2009, or even someone to contest immediately next year.

Much to my chagrin, Ian Gold is under contract until 2010, but I still have the suspicion he'll be moved. I don't expect him to play out the contract until he's 32/33 years old.

I think we'll see some investment in the linebacker arena via FA or the draft, especially since it's a strong draft, and there are a few quality guys coming in the FA pool. Karlos Dansby is one, unless he re-signed with Arizona.

they'd be STUPID not to sign him! dansby is a bigtime talent-- his play can be erratic at times, and he's been slowed by some nagging injuries, but he has shown flashes of real brilliance despite being moved around and surrounded with underwhelming talent in the front seven. . . he's extremely versatile, strong and very explosive-- the bidwell's are cheap, but i highly doubt they'll let him go, especially if the wishes of the coaching staff carry any weight. . .

topscribe
09-19-2007, 07:08 PM
Webster has done surprisingly well, but I still don't believe it's justification enough to not draft a linebacker. There are some options in free agency and this is a great draft for linebackers, so I would not be surprised to see some movement in either arena. At any case, Websters contract expires not this year, but next - so it'd be nice to have a viable option waiting in the wings for 2009, or even someone to contest immediately next year.

Much to my chagrin, Ian Gold is under contract until 2010, but I still have the suspicion he'll be moved. I don't expect him to play out the contract until he's 32/33 years old.

I think we'll see some investment in the linebacker arena via FA or the draft, especially since it's a strong draft, and there are a few quality guys coming in the FA pool. Karlos Dansby is one, unless he re-signed with Arizona.
Who are the best in the upcoming draft in your opinon?

And would you lean toward WILL in the draft if viable?

-----

Lonestar
09-19-2007, 07:09 PM
they'd be STUPID not to sign him! dansby is a bigtime talent-- his play can be erratic at times, and he's been slowed by some nagging injuries, but he has shown flashes of real brilliance despite being moved around and surrounded with underwhelming talent in the front seven. . . he's extremely versatile, strong and very explosive-- the bidwell's are cheap, but i highly doubt they'll let him go, especially if the wishes of the coaching staff carry any weight. . .

One does not waste a first round choice on a Sam linebacker that was what happened when gold came back to town.

We moved DJ to SAM to accommodate gold.

SAM LB are a quarter a dozen. The least needed on the field in alot of folks opinion. By that I mean you do not have to spend a gazillion on them. look at Webster doing rather nicely filling the spot and is Worth a third of what gold is getting. I suspect that gold will have to major restructure the money or his butt will be gone. What we save there will go into DJ's contract and getting a another couple of LB in the draft.

broncosinindy
09-19-2007, 07:09 PM
I'm not sure if I need to clarify Morambar's post (which was excellent) but he's not advocating that DJ gets replaced, but he's stating a good MLB prospect usually has the ability to play outside as well, especially at SAM. A guy like Goff or Hall would be a nice selection in Round Two to give us depth at multiple positions. That's one route I like going, but there are some great WILL prospects this year as well. Either way, Denver can grab a nice linebacker with their first two selections.

thats why i like Maualuga, He can play inside or out. and definetly is a hitter. Although he comes with some red flags himself

broncosinindy
09-19-2007, 07:14 PM
A NT and a MLB on Day One; we have two picks, and that's what they should be. No, I don't want to argue about safeties/offensive tackles/receivers. Right now those are the two gaping holes on this team, and filling them would put us on the road to a SB, IMHO, even if those are hard positions to fill immediately through the draft (yes, yes, D.J.: The MLB would start at SLB and move over at need; since a good MLB can play S/WLB at least as well it solves multiple potential problems). Picking up quality players at these positions and having them for years as draftees/RFAs is a LOT more attractive than shelling out $10-15 mill a year to try and get Urlacher and Jamal Williams to play for us. Especially since they'll take their hefty paychecks and retire about the time draft picks would be coming into their prime. That said, it might be necessary to look at a FA or two is possible to buy the draft picks time to mature and gain Pro experience (which is why I wanted Randall Godfrey as much as Sam Adams; I like talented vets, but I like 'em a lot more when they don't bust the cap).

But yeah, two First Day picks, two glaring positions of need. Get a TRUE NT (not a finesse blitzer like Warren/Kennedy/McKinley/Thomas and forcing him to play NT or cutting him) and a LB capable of excelling anywhere on the line (like the said Holdman was, though I never really bought that). Do that and the year older offense will have plenty of SB firepower, especially with another year on the Chrisses and Pears.
Speaking of which. Gerrard Warren ran over meyers over, you can probably see the treaf marks on him this week up at dove valley. How close is ben hamilton to being done? i think gaurd might be a position we look at aagain next year.

dogfish
09-19-2007, 07:20 PM
One does not waste a first round choice on a Sam linebacker that was what happened when gold came back to town.

We moved DJ to SAM to accommodate gold.

SAM LB are a quarter a dozen. The least needed on the field in alot of folks opinion. By that I mean you do not have to spend a gazillion on them. look at Webster doing rather nicely filling the spot and is Worth a third of what gold is getting. I suspect that gold will have to major restructure the money or his butt will be gone. What we save there will go into DJ's contract and getting a another couple of LB in the draft.

JR, i'm not sure why you quoted me. . . :confused:


if you're talking about dansby and assuming he's a SAM only, that's not correct-- that's where AZ used him initially, but he was projected as a WILL coming out of college because of his great speed and nose for the ball. . . he's also a talented blitzer (8 sacks last year, i believe), and they're playing him inside when they go 3-4. . . in any case, i don't think he's going to be available anyways. . .


but i agree that we don't need to spend a high pick or a lot of dollars on the SAM position at all-- for one thing, webster looks to be doing quite nicely there. . . and i think you're correct that gold will have to restructure if he wants to stay (if his salary cap number were adjusted to fit a reduced role, i wouldn't at all mind keeping him around as a nickel linebacker). . . if we spend a high draft pick on LB it should be for a WILL. . .

lex
09-19-2007, 07:22 PM
Speaking of which. Gerrard Warren ran over meyers over, you can probably see the treaf marks on him this week up at dove valley. How close is ben hamilton to being done? i think gaurd might be a position we look at aagain next year.

If were getting a guard, we should seriously consider Kraus from Michigan.

Requiem / The Dagda
09-19-2007, 07:27 PM
they'd be STUPID not to sign him! dansby is a bigtime talent-- his play can be erratic at times, and he's been slowed by some nagging injuries, but he has shown flashes of real brilliance despite being moved around and surrounded with underwhelming talent in the front seven. . . he's extremely versatile, strong and very explosive-- the bidwell's are cheap, but i highly doubt they'll let him go, especially if the wishes of the coaching staff carry any weight. . .

From what I've read, Dansby doesn't want to sign a deal, but the Cardinals really do want him to sign, and tried to get him extended before the season began. I still think he'll be available, I wouldn't want to stay on a franchise going nowhere.

broncosinindy
09-19-2007, 07:28 PM
6 day two picks? WOW that is awesome.

That is where your foundation is made as a team. 1st and 2nd round picks don't always pan out. Football players are in the 4th - 7th IMO.

It would be in my oppionon a better idea to trade up and use those later selections to get the players we need. last year they were talking about how they didnt see a couple or any making the team. and i see it again next year.

dogfish
09-19-2007, 07:39 PM
From what I've read, Dansby doesn't want to sign a deal, but the Cardinals really do want him to sign, and tried to get him extended before the season began. I still think he'll be available, I wouldn't want to stay on a franchise going nowhere.

interesting-- i'd take him on my team any day! he's bigger and stronger than dj williams, just as fast and athletic, is a MUCH better blitzer and has a knack for making big plays. . . he could be disgustingly good here playing the WILL. . . :werd:

broncosinindy
09-19-2007, 07:40 PM
I There you go again with your "cerebral" crap. Football is instincts. It is not
chess. It is not quantum physics. MLB is the ability to see it and do it.


-----

Not to start nothing but didnt you say MLB was one of the hardest to adapt to?

broncosinindy
09-19-2007, 07:47 PM
Why is there so much complaint about DJ now? I understand people starting that in the preseason when he is transitioning to a new position and people are scepticle. I do not see why it is happening now when he is playing very well. All of the linebackers have been playing exceptionally well this year in fact. The run defense is not the linebackers fault right now. Bates has already come out and said that it is the d-tackles not holding their blockers and allowing for a lot of traffic in what is supposed to be an open space for the linebackers to get the ball. In his system the d-tackles have to hold the point or the run is going to kill his defense.

Why complain and over-analyse stuff that is going good for us? I will make a promiss to everyone that DJ is not going to be replaced if he stays at the level he is playing right now. Since it is most likely that he will improve, considering this is the first time he has even played middle, I highly doubt he will be going anywhere for a long time. That of course is without injury or arrests playing a role in him leaving.


It will also be interesting to see if poeple will lay off our staff about their drafts now that the last few are looking successful. The death of Williams kind of hurts it but that is not because he wasn't good at football. It is looking like all of these picks will be contributors for a long time and the past 2 drafts before this one are looking about the same. I think this team has come a long way with its drafting habits.
I have no issue with DJ i think he might be able to transform into a MLB or a "MIKE" but DJ could have been a Pro Bowl WLB. It's all about upgrading our team for now. as we constantly like to try and make the big show. i think we could get a MLB in this draft. As linebackers are more prone to playing and excelling there first year. So then you have Rookie linebacker that could in this system get instant notice. a dominant WLB. and Webster that would definitely fill out our backer position. and Draft a DT that might or might not start. its all about getting the best guys on the field as soon as we can. we don't want to have to wait for year. that is my opinion on it anyhow

Requiem / The Dagda
09-19-2007, 07:53 PM
Who are the best in the upcoming draft in your opinon?

And would you lean toward WILL in the draft if viable?

-----

I think Keith Rivers is the best outside linebacker in the country. He has great size, great speed and he makes plays. He has the instincts that cannot be taught, and he causes turnovers. I don't think there is a rival in the country that could counter his sideline to sideline speed. He just makes plays. He's what a WILL should be. He has his weaknesses (I could list if you'd like) but he's just a phenomenal prospect. I'd consider him to be a better prospect than D.J. Williams coming out of school, and he could rival Derrick Johnson from Kansas City in that arena too. He's special.

I'm not as high on Dan Connor, but he's guy who is seeing time in the middle after Paul Pozluszny graduated and he has the ability to play inside or out. He's an over acheiver, and not as athletic as some of the other guys available. He's a little bit of a creeper too with a temper, he could be our next Romo though. He loves to harass people over the phone! In all seriousness, he's better in coverage than Rivers, but not as powerful as a run defender in my opinion. He can get to the QB too, which is a plus. I think he'll be a late-round one selection.

A lot of people like Ali Highsmith out of LSU, and I think he'll be a fine pro, and he can play all three places - but he's a little too small for me. He's listed at 6'0 - 220, but he'll measure in a good inch shorter and lighter than that. I really think he's a comparable player to Ian Gold, just because his sizes leaves him out to dry against bigger blockers and the fact that they both take bad angles on numerous occasions. He's a high risk, high reward player. I just wonder how far his athleticism will take him in the NFL. He's probably the best coverage linebacker as a WILL coming out of the draft though. He's a guy the Broncos would probably love because of his athleticism and versatility, but he's way too small for any other position but WILL.

Mailk Jackson and Shawn Crable have impressed me a lot this year, especially Crable. He was a monster in the ND game. Jackson can play either outside spots, but Crable is a 4-3 SAM. Bo Ruud out of Nebraska was a WILL, but he'll make a name for himself in the NFL as a SAM, I believe that's where he has been playing this year.

For inside guys, I like Philip Wheeler, followed by Jonathan Goff and Vincent Hall. I'm pretty high on Jasper Brinkley, and if Brian Toal wasn't injured every day of the week, I think he'd be an excellent option on Day One, but injury concerns will push him into Day . I like the outside prospects a lot better than inside, but all of those guys have versatility. I personally would love Cutler's former teammate Goff in the second round.

If I had to choose right now, I'd take an athletic OLB who has the ability to play multiple positions. It just gives us versatility. . . I wouldn't be against an ILB who can play outside though either. As much as I like Ruud and Crable as SAM prospects, they would be my last choices because they aren't as versatile.

Rivers, Jackson, Goff and Wheeler are my favorite four. . . I'd toss in Hall or Highsmith to round out my top five.

Requiem / The Dagda
09-19-2007, 07:55 PM
interesting-- i'd take him on my team any day! he's bigger and stronger than dj williams, just as fast and athletic, is a MUCH better blitzer and has a knack for making big plays. . . he could be disgustingly good here playing the WILL. . . :werd:

He'd be great. . . :first:

topscribe
09-19-2007, 07:55 PM
Not to start nothing but didnt you say MLB was one of the hardest to adapt to?
Absolutely. I kind of overdid the reaction thing. The MLB has to call the plays,
and he should also survey the defense to be sure everyone is in the right
posiiton. That isn't "cerebral." That is simply learning the playbook.

When the ball is snapped, however, all thinking stops. If you have to think,
you are already whipped, especially at MLB. In college, everything was
unbelievably fast to me. Yet the pros, they say, is faster. It's hard for me to
imagine. That is one big reason why I can empathize with D.J.'s initial
struggles and why I am so encouraged with his recent improvements. But just
to have the ability to start at that position . . . let alone star in it . . . means
one is a phenomenal athlete.

There simply is not time at MLB for "cerebral" activity. Read and react. That
is what it boils down to. Which makes the position even tougher that that
of, say, safety, where more thinking is done.

-----

broncosinindy
09-19-2007, 08:13 PM
Absolutely. I kind of overdid the reaction thing. The MLB has to call the plays,
and he should also survey the defense to be sure everyone is in the right
posiiton. That isn't "cerebral." That is simply learning the playbook.

When the ball is snapped, however, all thinking stops. If you have to think,
you are already whipped, especially at MLB. In college, everything was
unbelievably fast to me. Yet the pros, they say, is faster. It's hard for me to
imagine. That is one big reason why I can empathize with D.J.'s initial
struggles and why I am so encouraged with his recent improvements. But just
to have the ability to start at that position . . . let alone star in it . . . means
one is a phenomenal athlete.

There simply is not time at MLB for "cerebral" activity. Read and react. That
is what it boils down to. Which makes the position even tougher that that
of, say, safety, where more thinking is done.

-----

LOL i had to look up the word Cerebral.

Cerebral (adjective), Describes an angle of thinking that utilizes the intellect rather than intuition or instinct

To me yall are splitting hairs. I think you have to do both. I think that is what seperates the good players from the guys that float through the leuage.
That and you have to be in great physical condition

DenBronx
09-19-2007, 08:20 PM
i think gold is good as gone when the season ends. his salary is shocking based on his performance. he does not perform well enough to make 3.2 mil a year. his salary alone is worth more than all our linebackers combined!!!

a guy like dansby would come in and a make a huge impact but i think he would be out of reach.

topscribe
09-19-2007, 08:24 PM
LOL i had to look up the word Cerebral.

Cerebral (adjective), Describes an angle of thinking that utilizes the intellect rather than intuition or instinct

To me yall are splitting hairs. I think you have to do both. I think that is what seperates the good players from the guys that float through the leuage.
That and you have to be in great physical condition
Can't argue with that . . .

-----

Requiem / The Dagda
09-19-2007, 08:25 PM
LOL i had to look up the word Cerebral.

Cerebral (adjective), Describes an angle of thinking that utilizes the intellect rather than intuition or instinct

To me yall are splitting hairs. I think you have to do both. I think that is what seperates the good players from the guys that float through the leuage.
That and you have to be in great physical condition

Exactly. Gerard Warren is a physical gifted man, and should have been dominant. Too bad he was weak-minded, and his approach to the game hurt him.

topscribe
09-19-2007, 08:27 PM
Exactly. Gerard Warren is a physical gifted man, and should have been dominant. Too bad he was weak-minded, and his approach to the game hurt him.
Now, there is the antithesis to "cerebral." He could have simply done what
they wanted of him and been the star on the line. You know I advocated for
him for some time. But I never figured him to be that stupid. :tsk:

-----

DenBronx
09-19-2007, 08:29 PM
Exactly. Gerard Warren is a physical gifted man, and should have been dominant. Too bad he was weak-minded, and his approach to the game hurt him.

warren looked like a fool last sunday. i know he enjoyed the safety and he was yelling at the crowd i bet something along the lines like you shouldnt have traded me. you know it was personal. then he has a penalty late in the game that helped us win.....so thanks gmoney for making a fool out of your fat ***.

and sapp must feel like a bigger fool because warren "cracked his eight"

did anyone see walker and cutler jawing at warren? cutler reminded me of favre spouting off at warren...i love it!

konnorrollison
09-19-2007, 08:39 PM
yea i really like both tho they cant play ALL the time

lex
09-19-2007, 08:50 PM
If we can trade down and get Okam, Id want to do that.

This guy has Okam going in Rd 1-2 and its been recently updated.

http://walterfootball.com/draft2008DT.php

Joel
09-19-2007, 08:51 PM
I'm not sure if I need to clarify Morambar's post (which was excellent) but he's not advocating that DJ gets replaced, but he's stating a good MLB prospect usually has the ability to play outside as well, especially at SAM. A guy like Goff or Hall would be a nice selection in Round Two to give us depth at multiple positions. That's one route I like going, but there are some great WILL prospects this year as well. Either way, Denver can grab a nice linebacker with their first two selections.
Thanks for the support, and yeah, that's exactly my position. I'm willing to reserve judgment on Webster since I haven't seen him play yet this year, so I'm still going just on the '9ers game last season. The thing is, even before Al was forced to retire and [perpetual name block, but ya'll know whom I mean] retired after about fifteen years I was worried about depth; then we lost our starting MIKE AND our backup SAM, so, yeah, I want at least one more guy. If Webster's really a gamer I'm more comfortable with a true backup SAM than MIKE, but then there's Ian Gold aging even if we like how he plays, and no guarantees Louis Green is the solution.

It's not a given a starter quality MIKE can play elsewhere, but almost all of them can play SAM, and many have the speed to play WILL as well. Think of it this way: A MIKE may not be a lock for WILL or SAM, but that's a lot more likely than a SAM or WILL who can play MIKE. If we pick up a guy who can do it all in the first two rounds that should cover a lot of bases. At this point I think you and I are largely in agreement; I want a premiere LB and NT (though a solid DT who's more than finesse would be acceptable) in the first two rounds, and while I lean towards the NT first, I'm really happy as long as those are our first two picks.

Skinny
09-19-2007, 08:57 PM
Thanks for the support, and yeah, that's exactly my position. I'm willing to reserve judgment on Webster since I haven't seen him play yet this year, so I'm still going just on the '9ers game last season. The thing is, even before Al was forced to retire and [perpetual name block, but ya'll know whom I mean] retired after about fifteen years I was worried about depth; then we lost our starting MIKE AND our backup SAM, so, yeah, I want at least one more guy. If Webster's really a gamer I'm more comfortable with a true backup SAM than MIKE, but then there's Ian Gold aging even if we like how he plays, and no guarantees Louis Green is the solution.

It's not a given a starter quality MIKE can play elsewhere, but almost all of them can play SAM, and many have the speed to play WILL as well. Think of it this way: A MIKE may not be a lock for WILL or SAM, but that's a lot more likely than a SAM or WILL who can play MIKE. If we pick up a guy who can do it all in the first two rounds that should cover a lot of bases. At this point I think you and I are largely in agreement; I want a premiere LB and NT (though a solid DT who's more than finesse would be acceptable) in the first two rounds, and while I lean towards the NT first, I'm really happy as long as those are our first two picks.*cough*Keith Burns*cough* http://forums.denverbroncos.com/images/smilies/th_broadgrin.gif

Yeah, i lean toward the NT first meself.

BigBroncLove
09-19-2007, 09:00 PM
From what I've read, Dansby doesn't want to sign a deal, but the Cardinals really do want him to sign, and tried to get him extended before the season began. I still think he'll be available, I wouldn't want to stay on a franchise going nowhere.

I disagree. From what I have read, it's the Cardinals who were luke warm about re-signing Dansby, not the other way around. Dansby's agent pressed hard for a new contract this year, but the Cardinals wanted to see how things panned out before they did it. With Dansby excelling at the ILB just as he does the OLB for the Cardinals, and also being a great sacker, with his speed and power at the point of attack, I think the Cardinals will be smart and press for a new contract with him while the season is in progress, maybe just after.

As far as what I have read, Dansby wants to remain a Cardinal....

http://www.azcentral.com/sports/columns/articles/0819cardsinsider0820.html


The Cardinals and the agent for inside linebacker Karlos Dansby have opened negotiations for a contract extension, but talks aren't expected to progress much for at least several weeks.

The Cardinals would like to see how the preseason plays out before getting serious about re-signing Dansby. With injuries and possible late additions from the waiver wire, their roster will remain a work in progress through the first week of the regular season.

The delay is frustrating for Dansby's agent, Kirk Wood, who is pushing to reach an agreement before the regular season starts Sept. 10 in San Francisco. Dansby, Wood said, doesn't want the contract issue to loom through the season.


"Kirk and Karlos have both established the fact that he (Dansby) wants to remain an Arizona Cardinal," Graves said. "I see that as a very positive for getting a deal done."

Requiem / The Dagda
09-19-2007, 10:06 PM
Thanks for clarifying that, I must have read it the other way around. That was the article I saw though, just forgot what it said. I thought the Cardinal's were pressing. . .

Thanks!

Skinny
09-19-2007, 10:54 PM
If we can trade down and get Okam, Id want to do that.

This guy has Okam going in Rd 1-2 and its been recently updated.

http://walterfootball.com/draft2008DT.phpThanks for the link lex.
2008 Inside Linebacker Rankings

#3 Jasper Brinkley, South Carolina
Height: 6-2. Weight: 257.
40 Time: 4.58.
Projected Round: 1-2.
A member of the All-SEC First Team, Jasper Brinkley is a monstrous linebacker who will be able to play numerous positions on an NFL team because of his impressive size and speed. Brinkley and Vince Hall, the top inside linebackers of the 2008 class, will be hoping James Laurinaitis and Rey Maualuga stay in school. Homer aside, Jasper is a helluva player. He's a beast that has absolutely no problem whatsoever fending off blocks to get to the ball carrier. Another transition besides the mental aspect that seems to be a big '?' for Linebackers when going from college the NFL.

I must say, i'm shocked to see he's the 2nd fastest L.B. on that list. :eek:

There are some quality players listed there.

He's right at 255 according to Gamecocks football program and a 4.5ish 40 is haulin *** for a guy that big.

I would be a little shocked if we went that route and picked him considering Mikey and Bates would be looking to fill in one of the OLB positions rather than MLB, which i think Jasper is better suited for. But as mentioned by multiple draft Experts, he has the ability to play multiple L.B. postions.

But if the staff desides to go that direction to fill in at WILL or SAM, i'm all for it!

BigBroncLove
09-19-2007, 11:15 PM
Thanks for clarifying that, I must have read it the other way around. That was the article I saw though, just forgot what it said. I thought the Cardinal's were pressing. . .

Thanks!

Oh, np Dream. Glad to be of assistence in ironing out wrinkles in memory. For the record, I enjoy your posts to a great extent, and sometimes I soudn like the devils advocate posting things contrary to your posts, but that's not beccause I don't agree with your posts in general, just agree with them usualyl to the point I don't feel the need to post a counter opinion, and I'm not the type to play cheerleader usually and praise a post without adding something to the discussion for debate purposes :D....

lex
09-19-2007, 11:17 PM
Youre welcome. One player that I think is overrated is Laurinaitus. He is OK but not what he is made out to be.

Lonestar
09-19-2007, 11:28 PM
JR, i'm not sure why you quoted me. . . :confused:


if you're talking about dansby and assuming he's a SAM only, that's not correct-- that's where AZ used him initially, but he was projected as a WILL coming out of college because of his great speed and nose for the ball. . . he's also a talented blitzer (8 sacks last year, i believe), and they're playing him inside when they go 3-4. . . in any case, i don't think he's going to be available anyways. . .


but i agree that we don't need to spend a high pick or a lot of dollars on the SAM position at all-- for one thing, webster looks to be doing quite nicely there. . . and i think you're correct that gold will have to restructure if he wants to stay (if his salary cap number were adjusted to fit a reduced role, i wouldn't at all mind keeping him around as a nickel linebacker). . . if we spend a high draft pick on LB it should be for a WILL. . .

You were just up on the screen it was not directed at you per see.

My premise is that one does not waste a #1 on a SAM LB. perhaps on a MLB and maybe a great Will LB but not SAM.

Lonestar
09-19-2007, 11:30 PM
i think gold is good as gone when the season ends. his salary is shocking based on his performance. he does not perform well enough to make 3.2 mil a year. his salary alone is worth more than all our linebackers combined!!!

a guy like dansby would come in and a make a huge impact but i think he would be out of reach.

Here are golds numbers from NLPA

2007
Player Name Position Team Compensation
Gold, Ian LB DB 2,300,000.00

2008 Player Name Position Team Compensation
Gold, Ian LB DB 2,750,000.00
2009
Player Name Position Team Compensation
Gold, Ian LB DB 3,400,000.00


http://www.nflpa.org/Resources/ActivePlayerSearch.aspx

But your almost correct about him making almost the same as all combined.

topscribe
09-19-2007, 11:40 PM
Thanks for the link lex.Homer aside, Jasper is a helluva player. He's a beast that has absolutely no problem whatsoever fending off blocks to get to the ball carrier. Another transition besides the mental aspect that seems to be a big '?' for Linebackers when going from college the NFL.

I must say, i'm shocked to see he's the 2nd fastest L.B. on that list. :eek:

There are some quality players listed there.

He's right at 255 according to Gamecocks football program and a 4.5ish 40 is haulin *** for a guy that big.

I would be a little shocked if we went that route and picked him considering Mikey and Bates would be looking to fill in one of the OLB positions rather than MLB, which i think Jasper is better suited for. But as mentioned by multiple draft Experts, he has the ability to play multiple L.B. postions.

But if the staff desides to go that direction to fill in at WILL or SAM, i'm all for it!
If we could get a superlative MLB, I don't think D.J. would have any problem
at all sliding over to WILL. After all, that was where he thought he would
be when he first came up to us. It's SAM that D.J. doesn't want to play,
and I don't blame him in his situation.

But if that were to happen, we would have a pretty good starting three
with Webster at SLB, Williams WLB, and whoever MLB.

-----

Lonestar
09-19-2007, 11:42 PM
If we could get a superlative MLB, I don't think D.J. would have any problem
at all sliding over to WILL. After all, that was where he thought he would
be when he first came up to us. It's SAM that D.J. doesn't want to play,
and I don't blame him in his situation.

But if that were to happen, we would have a pretty good starting three
with Webster, Williams, and whoever.

-----

well I could be wrong here but I do not think mikey would waste the pick on a MLB unless he was unhappy with his play. Or ability to handle the calling of plays.

lex
09-19-2007, 11:48 PM
well I could be wrong here but I do not think mikey would waste the pick on a MLB unless he was unhappy with his play. Or ability to handle the calling of plays.

Thats a good point. I think it will be an OLB, DT or S.

Lonestar
09-19-2007, 11:57 PM
Thats a good point. I think it will be an OLB, DT or S.

I'm hoping that in light of our total lack of BIGGIE depth at DT they will spend another #1 here. Once Adams goes were are up the creek without a paddle.

Safety can be had in the second or third round IMHO. LB can be had via FA or on the second day.

lex
09-20-2007, 12:04 AM
I'm hoping that in light of our total lack of BIGGIE depth at DT they will spend another #1 here. Once Adams goes were are up the creek without a paddle.

Safety can be had in the second or third round IMHO. LB can be had via FA or on the second day.

Yeah, I really am kind of hoping for Okam. I would have been cool with Raji but he has academic problems and will likely redshirt and play his last year of college in 2008. I was checking out Shirley but that dude was suspended for behavior detrimental to the team. Id rather go after Okam assuming Ellis and Dorsey do, in fact go ahead of Okam. I saw that Okam does well in the class room. Plus it would be really symmetrical to have 2 Gators and 2 Longhorns on the D Line.

DenBronx
09-20-2007, 12:09 AM
Here are golds numbers from NLPA

2007
Player Name Position Team Compensation
Gold, Ian LB DB 2,300,000.00

2008 Player Name Position Team Compensation
Gold, Ian LB DB 2,750,000.00
2009
Player Name Position Team Compensation
Gold, Ian LB DB 3,400,000.00


http://www.nflpa.org/Resources/ActivePlayerSearch.aspx

But your almost correct about him making almost the same as all combined.

i was off by a mil then but in 2009 he would be making that. no one is going to trade for gold with that kind of contract and the team sure isnt going to carry that contract. i wonder if gold will suck it up and restructure? if he doesnt then he might be cut next year.

topscribe
09-20-2007, 12:37 AM
well I could be wrong here but I do not think mikey would waste the pick on a MLB unless he was unhappy with his play. Or ability to handle the calling of plays.
I don't think so, either. I was only pointing out a possibly good scenario.

But I agree it's not a likely one.

-----

topscribe
09-20-2007, 12:40 AM
I'm hoping that in light of our total lack of BIGGIE depth at DT they will spend another #1 here. Once Adams goes were are up the creek without a paddle.

Safety can be had in the second or third round IMHO. LB can be had via FA or on the second day.
How big do you want them? They are all over 300 lbs., and two are over 325.

But I would be for getting big ones who are also good, although we should
realize that the only DT we have with any appreciable experience is Adams.
That certainly could be a cause of inconsistent play.

-----

TXBRONC
09-20-2007, 12:41 AM
I don't think so, either. I was only pointing out a possibly good scenario.

But I agree it's not a likely one.

-----

If we draft a linebacker I doubt it would be in the first round.

topscribe
09-20-2007, 12:44 AM
If we draft a linebacker I doubt it would be in the first round.
Unless we could get someone such as Rivers.

But he would probably be long gone by the time our selection is up.

-----

TXBRONC
09-20-2007, 07:12 AM
Unless we could get someone such as Rivers.

But he would probably be long gone by the time our selection is up.

-----


That's entirely possible, but Shanahan has passed on great talent before. Steven Jackson comes to mind. He and Bobby Taylor either didn't think he was a good fit or Shanahan was satisfied at the time with what he had.

lex
09-20-2007, 09:22 AM
How big do you want them? They are all over 300 lbs., and two are over 325.

But I would be for getting big ones who are also good, although we should
realize that the only DT we have with any appreciable experience is Adams.
That certainly could be a cause of inconsistent play.

-----

If we drafted Okam, who is over 320, we could put him in on 1st downs and keep him in on 2nd and 3rd and rotate Marcus Thomas with Adams. Adams says he wants to play a while longer and this would give us good flexibility and depth that would allow us to minimize risk due to inexperience. And if Thomas is playing every down by then, it would still be good to have that kind of depth at DT since Adams isnt exactly young and you dont want your DLinemen to pace themselves (ie taking plays off).

jhns
09-20-2007, 10:08 AM
I AGREe john, i was just discussing that as we will most likely draft lb with one of our top picks next year which one we should choose. position wise i mean.

do we go after a mike and move dj back to his will, or go sam and keep everything as is. or go with a player who does both as dream said might be the case.

i have always had confidence in dj and the broncos and their drafts. i still love the pick of clarett. (wish he wouldnt have been an idiot, but a good pick nonetheless)

so if i came off sounding in anyway that i dont like dj, our drafting or anything else, its not what i meant to be percieved.

I was just making that comment because the discussion started as what you are talking about but then deteriorated into dissing DJ. At least that is how I was seeing it. I do agree that we need another LB, but even Coyer wanted DJ to move to the middle. He just has really good size and speed for the middle and outside guys are much easier to find. I would think if we bring in a new one it would be an outside guy but could very well be someone who can play any of the 3 spots.

The drafting comment was just random talking to everyone. Nothing you or anyone said in this thread brought that up. I just felt that it was on the original topic and was the comment that I had from reading the original posts. There has been a lot of crap talk through the years on how this team has drafted. I feel that these last few have been nothing short of excellent. We have a lot of youth with a lot of talent right now. This team has a ton of youth to build around in the future.

TXBRONC
09-20-2007, 11:35 AM
You're free to disagree with me, but you're not drafting in the first-round for "best available athlete" (not even a real term, best player available would be) you're drafting at a position where you think there needs to be improvement. Obviously, with Timmons so high on their board, they felt like linebacker was a need.

What additions to the team have changed that?

That would incorrect, because happens quite often. And obviously neither of us knows who might be right. I'm leaving it at that.

Watchthemiddle
09-20-2007, 12:17 PM
WHen it comes to drafting, no one can ever predict what Shanahan is thinking or what he is going to do. The obvious choice to us is not always the obvious choice for him.

broncosinindy
09-20-2007, 12:24 PM
Youre welcome. One player that I think is overrated is Laurinaitus. He is OK but not what he is made out to be.

His dad was the Road warrior. how can you not like him.

underrated29
09-20-2007, 12:27 PM
WHen it comes to drafting, no one can ever predict what Shanahan is thinking or what he is going to do. The obvious choice to us is not always the obvious choice for him.


very very true!!

although besides our sneak up for cutler, i think the drafting has pretty much gone to par with what most of us have thought we would do. and as our drafts seem to be better and better we could presume that we are infact correct at what postions we need to fill and the staff will draft accordingly.

but we have to remember that mikey is an offensive man, so if a wr like limas tweed or whatever his name is drops- he could be very tempted to take him.

but i think if we finish the season as is, draft our few needs, we should be right in line with the decade for our next 2 superbowls, and if/when we win this year, we can assume that we will become the first team to 3-peat.

lex
09-20-2007, 12:29 PM
His dad was the Road warrior. how can you not like him.

Who is the Road warrior? Actually, I know he is a wrestler from reading about it but I know next to nothing about his dad beyond that. Im not into wrestling at all. Maybe its knowing that his dad is a wrestler that makes me think James Laurinitis is somewhat of a fraud...I dont know though.

underrated29
09-20-2007, 12:33 PM
Who is the Road warrior? Actually, I know he is a wrestler from reading about it but I know next to nothing about his dad beyond that. Im not into wrestling at all. Maybe its knowing that his dad is a wrestler that makes me think James Laurinitis is somewhat of a fraud...I dont know though.


well his name sounds like a disease- LAURINITIS!

*cough* *cough* hey man i cant make it to the game i got a bad case of laurinitis.

bad. thats just bad

broncosinindy
09-20-2007, 12:34 PM
very very true!!

although besides our sneak up for cutler, i think the drafting has pretty much gone to par with what most of us have thought we would do. and as our drafts seem to be better and better we could presume that we are infact correct at what postions we need to fill and the staff will draft accordingly.

but we have to remember that mikey is an offensive man, so if a wr like limas tweed or whatever his name is drops- he could be very tempted to take him.

but i think if we finish the season as is, draft our few needs, we should be right in line with the decade for our next 2 superbowls, and if/when we win this year, we can assume that we will become the first team to 3-peat.

Thats another reason i would like to see Denver draft a linebacker. shanny has been pretty good about getting them. I am not to high on getting a Wideout. Shanny has gotten a couple of good ones the last two years or so. Brandon Marshall, Javon Walker, but i think we are pretty set at the position if we can keep brandon stokely or give one of the other kids to develope. I would HATE to see a wide out drafted. i just think there are bigger needs then it.

Lonestar
09-20-2007, 12:35 PM
very very true!!

although besides our sneak up for cutler, i think the drafting has pretty much gone to par with what most of us have thought we would do. and as our drafts seem to be better and better we could presume that we are infact correct at what postions we need to fill and the staff will draft accordingly.

but we have to remember that mikey is an offensive man, so if a wr like limas tweed or whatever his name is drops- he could be very tempted to take him.

but i think if we finish the season as is, draft our few needs, we should be right in line with the decade for our next 2 superbowls, and if/when we win this year, we can assume that we will become the first team to 3-peat.


I think you are wrong here the acknowledged weakness on this team the past several years has been DL with the vast majority of folks seeing it and HOPING that mikey would address it.

Same goes for safety and WR.

Not many picks in those areas. Only the Jake molesters thought mikey was going after a QB.

Mikey marches to his own drum beat during the draft.

TXBRONC
09-20-2007, 12:35 PM
His dad was the Road warrior. how can you not like him.

Which one? They were a wrestling tag team in the '80. I think one of them is deceased.

broncosinindy
09-20-2007, 12:39 PM
Who is the Road warrior? Actually, I know he is a wrestler from reading about it but I know next to nothing about his dad beyond that. Im not into wrestling at all. Maybe its knowing that his dad is a wrestler that makes me think James Laurinitis is somewhat of a fraud...I dont know though.

I watched wrestling as a kid. so i just thought it was ironic and cool.

if you want to call a fella that was the first sophmore ever to win the Nagurski Award (defensive player of the year) Laurinaitis recorded 115 tackles, five interceptions and four sacks in 2006.

Thats cool.

Also another celeb of not playing linebacker is Clay matthews son. who iss starting in place of brian cushing.

broncosinindy
09-20-2007, 12:40 PM
Which one? They were a wrestling tag team in the '80. I think one of them is deceased.yup i should have put the road warriors. i think his dad was animal if i remember right. its been aloooooooooong time.

TXBRONC
09-20-2007, 12:42 PM
yup i should have put the road warriors. i think his dad was animal if i remember right. its been aloooooooooong time.

Animal was huge. Hawk was the smaller of the two weight wise.

lex
09-20-2007, 12:51 PM
I watched wrestling as a kid. so i just thought it was ironic and cool.

if you want to call a fella that was the first sophmore ever to win the Nagurski Award (defensive player of the year) Laurinaitis recorded 115 tackles, five interceptions and four sacks in 2006.

Thats cool.

Also another celeb of not playing linebacker is Clay matthews son. who iss starting in place of brian cushing.


Yeah, I know he won the Nagurski but I dont think he should have. I think there are other LBs who are as good or better than this guy.

underrated29
09-20-2007, 12:56 PM
I think you are wrong here the acknowledged weakness on this team the past several years has been DL with the vast majority of folks seeing it and HOPING that mikey would address it.

Same goes for safety and WR.

Not many picks in those areas. Only the Jake molesters thought mikey was going after a QB.

Mikey marches to his own drum beat during the draft.

right jr, and right again about shanny drafting what he wants.

but we were weak at cb, we took 3 we were weak at dl we took 2. signed 2 or 3 more, and dropped are ecxess weight there (brown,warren,lang).

we were weak at rb- got travis.

i consider fa and the draft as one, since both are in the offseason (for the most part) and help us for the future year.

so really he has shored up most of our holes, granted this has been done only recentley vs in the past, but this is now and we took care of a lot.

i would flip if we took wr, but if limas fell, i could see him being tempted, because as you said he drafts his own way.

I still think we could get by another year without drafting a saftey with a high pick, but i am not nearly as good as a prospector or draft guru like dream and the others, so i am probably wrong on that.

but that could prove valid to your point about ignoring positions of need, not that it wasnt valid anyway.

Lonestar
09-20-2007, 01:17 PM
:focus: please

broncosinindy
09-20-2007, 01:31 PM
:focus: please

I havent heard any comments from the coaching staff (if they have could someone post them) on marcus thomas and his tranition to our D

Lonestar
09-20-2007, 01:31 PM
right jr, and right again about shanny drafting what he wants.

but we were weak at cb, we took 3 we were weak at dl we took 2. signed 2 or 3 more, and dropped are ecxess weight there (brown,warren,lang).

we were weak at rb- got travis.

i consider fa and the draft as one, since both are in the offseason (for the most part) and help us for the future year.

so really he has shored up most of our holes, granted this has been done only recentley vs in the past, but this is now and we took care of a lot.

i would flip if we took wr, but if limas fell, i could see him being tempted, because as you said he drafts his own way.

I still think we could get by another year without drafting a saftey with a high pick, but i am not nearly as good as a prospector or draft guru like dream and the others, so i am probably wrong on that.

but that could prove valid to your point about ignoring positions of need, not that it wasnt valid anyway.


Well draft is draft to me. And in many cases for mikey it has been DAFT.

Yes the past couple of years he has addressed our needs via free agency and trades, quite well. But that is the real expensive way to do it. Where the Draft choice typically costs you 25% or less of what the others do, that is the way to build a team.

Remember when he drafted the 3 CB's in 2005 he really drafted Darrent as a kr specialist and got surprised. So I do not count that as a fix and the other two are not quality starters regardless of what anyone says. Can they start somewhere in the NFL perhaps but they would be liabilities in DEN as starters.

He had to trade to fix the hole at LCB after Darrent died.

Now that is not to say that fox and Paymah do not fill a need on the team. But they were drafted to play CB and so far they have not.

IMHO personnel is not Mikey strongest point he is genius on the field but again IMHO he should have a great GM that can make those personnel decisions that he has muffed over the past decade or more.

Now folks are gonna grue that he will not works under anyone.Does that mean that there might be a great GM out there that would love to be on a great team and great organization.

If we can find Bates and humdinger that are willing to join forces here, have they really looked for a first rate GM that might want to be tied to a first rate team.

Watchthemiddle
09-20-2007, 01:43 PM
Thats another reason i would like to see Denver draft a linebacker. shanny has been pretty good about getting them. I am not to high on getting a Wideout. Shanny has gotten a couple of good ones the last two years or so. Brandon Marshall, Javon Walker, but i think we are pretty set at the position if we can keep brandon stokely or give one of the other kids to develope. I would HATE to see a wide out drafted. i just think there are bigger needs then it.


I don't see drafting a wide out either. Or an RB. The biggest need for this team for years to come is going to be on the defensive side of the ball...with the exception of O line. We are set on offense at the skill positions. If our run D plays the way it has the rest of the year, I think we can all bet that a defensive player will be our first pick. Maybe all of them as well.

Lonestar
09-20-2007, 01:50 PM
I don't see drafting a wide out either. Or an RB. The biggest need for this team for years to come is going to be on the defensive side of the ball...with the exception of O line. We are set on offense at the skill positions. If our run D plays the way it has the rest of the year, I think we can all bet that a defensive player will be our first pick. Maybe all of them as well.

OLINE in the past has always been a late rounder. Can we afford to do that with a LT I'm not sure.

I suspect that 85% of the folks on here are gonna want another DT to replace Adams when he goes. The kiddies we have besides him are JUST not Big SAM.

topscribe
09-20-2007, 01:52 PM
Well draft is draft to me. And in many cases for mikey it has been DAFT.

Yes the past couple of years he has addressed our needs via free agency and trades, quite well. But that is the real expensive way to do it. Where the Draft choice typically costs you 25% or less of what the others do, that is the way to build a team.

Remember when he drafted the 3 CB's in 2005 he really drafted Darrent as a kr specialist and got surprised. So I do not count that as a fix and the other two are not quality starters regardless of what anyone says. Can they start somewhere in the NFL perhaps but they would be liabilities in DEN as starters.

He had to trade to fix the hole at LCB after Darrent died.

Now that is not to say that fox and Paymah do not fill a need on the team. But they were drafted to play CB and so far they have not.

IMHO personnel is not Mikey strongest point he is genius on the field but again IMHO he should have a great GM that can make those personnel decisions that he has muffed over the past decade or more.

Now folks are gonna grue that he will not works under anyone.Does that mean that there might be a great GM out there that would love to be on a great team and great organization.

If we can find Bates and humdinger that are willing to join forces here, have they really looked for a first rate GM that might want to be tied to a first rate team.
I have to disagree with you on Foxy. He is well regarded by others even
outside the team.

Moreover, while I agreed with you on what you call DAFTing in the past, I
believe it is not just that: the past. With our pickups of the likes of D.J.,
Thomas, Moss, Dumervil, Cutler, Marshall, D-Will, Foxy, Paymah, Kuper,
and probably others (not to mention getting Javon for a #2), I believe they
have done quite well in the last two to three years.

So we were surprised by D-Will. We were, but were Shanny & Co.? I believe
I remember Shanny's saying that D-Will could become a pretty good CB.
But surprise or no surprise, he was a drafting success. You don't count the
tipped completion as an incompletion, nor do you count the near INT as an
INT. If a player is drafted and works out, that is a drafting success. Bottom
line.

Moreover, it also doesn't matter where they were drafted. If Moss is a bust
but Thomas and/or Selvin became Pro Bowlers, what would it matter since
neither a 4th nor a UFA is necessarily expected to make it, anyway, at
least as a starter.

-----

Lonestar
09-20-2007, 01:55 PM
I have to disagree with you on Foxy. He is well regarded by others even
outside the team.

Moreover, while I agreed with you on what you call DAFTing in the past, I
believe it is not just that: the past. With our pickups of the likes of D.J.,
Thomas, Moss, Dumervil, Cutler, Marshall, D-Will, Foxy, Paymah, Kuper,
and probably others (not to mention getting Javon for a #2), I believe they
have done quite well in the last two to three years.

So we were surprised by D-Will. We were, but were Shanny & Co.? I believe
I remember Shanny's saying that D-Will could become a pretty good CB.
But surprise or no surprise, he was a drafting success. You don't count the
tipped completion as an incompletion, nor do you count the near INT as an
INT. If a player is drafted and works out, that is a drafting success. Bottom
line.

-----

He has done better yea but still has alot of ground to make up for all of the whoops.

dogfish
09-20-2007, 01:57 PM
I don't see drafting a wide out either. Or an RB. The biggest need for this team for years to come is going to be on the defensive side of the ball...with the exception of O line. We are set on offense at the skill positions. If our run D plays the way it has the rest of the year, I think we can all bet that a defensive player will be our first pick. Maybe all of them as well.

actually, i do think there's a decent chance we'll draft a WR next year-- though not with a high pick. . . we're set on the outside with walker and marshall, but we're going to need a shifty slot receiver type, preferably one who has some explosiveness as a returner (i'm not writing hixon off, but depth and competition are always good). . .

i do think it's very likely that we'll resign stokley (who's only got a one-year deal), but given the time it typically takes to develop WRs, we should get his replacement on the roster before we need him-- especially given stokley's injury history. . . with all the 2nd day picks we have, i see a good chance that we'll spend one of them on a slot guy with return skills, someone similar to david clowney or aundrae allison from this year's draft. . .

lex
09-20-2007, 02:25 PM
actually, i do think there's a decent chance we'll draft a WR next year-- though not with a high pick. . . we're set on the outside with walker and marshall, but we're going to need a shifty slot receiver type, preferably one who has some explosiveness as a returner (i'm not writing hixon off, but depth and competition are always good). . .

i do think it's very likely that we'll resign stokley (who's only got a one-year deal), but given the time it typically takes to develop WRs, we should get his replacement on the roster before we need him-- especially given stokley's injury history. . . with all the 2nd day picks we have, i see a good chance that we'll spend one of them on a slot guy with return skills, someone similar to david clowney or aundrae allison from this year's draft. . .


I can see maybe drafting someone who returns kicks...like Reynaud of WV.

Requiem / The Dagda
09-20-2007, 02:51 PM
Darrent Williams was regarded as a first-round talent outside his size. His forearm fracture didn't help him either, but the selection was cheered by many people outside the Denver area because they thought we got one of the top coverage corners and kick returners in the nation.

The thing that bugs me most about JR is the fact that he never places and blame on Sundquist in the scouting department. Mike has admitted he's involved in the process (as far as watching players) but cannot be in it as much as he'd like to be because obviously he's the head coach and has numerous responsibilities.

Shanahan and Sundquist rely on the information from guys like Goodman and DiStefano in order to come up with the best selection at the time. So this whole notion that Shanahan is DAFT in the draft really gets blown out of proportion and is misrepresented. If you want to put blame in regards to our poor drafts, it goes from the scouting department all the way to the top. Sure, Mike and Ted put in the final word, but they go off of the information they are getting from either their scouting department, or from other scouting departments around the league who may share information. (Such as Jeff Fisher did with Jay Cutler.)

There has been enormous progression in the drafting arena over the past few years. Whether it's their aggressiveness in trades or just better scouting, I don't know - but we've picked up some quality players who are young and contributing to this team right now. Cutler, Marshall and Dumervil from one draft are "starters" on this team. That's very impressive. Not to mention, we have various other players seeing playing time or making strides on this team several years after they have been drafted.

People are free to continuously cry foul about the Broncos and the draft, and continually make excuses (Like Darrent didn't count because he's A) dead and B) exceeded expectations.) and outrageous claims like Foxworth or Paymah have never played cornerback (False, why don't you take a look at the games started by Foxworth, and the extended role Karl got as Darrent was sidelined by injury.) but they can also continue to make themselves look like they don't have a clue about what they're talking about.

As I've always said. If you want to cry about the Broncos drafting and how bad it was, compare it to the rest of the league, and you'll that there's a similar trend for all teams. A good player or two in a draft, but most of them leave after a year or so.

underrated29
09-20-2007, 02:53 PM
i have never heard of the clown allison or reyanaud.

are any of them good? obviously not a d hester, but maybe a yamon figuers, or a tim dwight???

but i could see it happening. one thing shanny will always draft for is speed. he is upsessed with it. matt jones, darrent,karl,dom,calvin johnson,dj.

so if there is a speed guy shanny might take the bait. hopefully not until we got other positions or is a cant miss kind of guy.

Requiem / The Dagda
09-20-2007, 02:59 PM
Harry Douglas is a guy Shanahan would probably pop a chub to since he has excellent receiving skills and can return as well.