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rationalfan
10-27-2010, 02:30 PM
Seriously. Why?

I'm asking because the negativity toward McD has been present since 18 seconds after he was named coach of the Broncos. Now, I'm not implying that fans should have blind devotion to a coach, but it's very apparent that a sect of Broncos fans has never given McD any respect and repeatedly blame him for anything - from not being to run the football to the reason they're constipated.

So what is it? Is he too young? Too cocky? Too willing to apologize to fans? Too tied to New England? Too quick to realize the fan favorite players he traded wouldn't work in his system? Too short?

Honestly, what is it? This is free-form, unfiltered. Don't say what you think you should, say what you mean.

Prediction: I'll regret starting this thread by 4 p.m. CST.

BroncoWave
10-27-2010, 02:38 PM
I'd like to know the same thing. I feel like some on here hate McDaniels more than they do Bin Laden. While he's not doing the greatest job right now and may be on thin ice, some of our fans never even gave him a chance since day 1, and that is sad.

NorCalBronco7
10-27-2010, 02:40 PM
Look I was excited Mr. B brought in Josh last year. Sure it hurt losing Shanny and I was honestly devastated when we let him go, but in understanding who Josh was and the system he was bringing to Denver, I got excited.

Then the Cutler trade....and Im questioning his player relations ability.

Then switching to a PBS and Im like :confused:

And then signing all these ex-pats???

How about his drafting! hmmmm.

I really could go on and on with Joshs questionable moves. Ive always given him the benifiet of the doubt, but honestly Im really starting to not like him.

broncobryce
10-27-2010, 02:42 PM
He traded all my boyfriends
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Foochacho
10-27-2010, 02:43 PM
I supported him until the Jets loss I feel that his playcalling at the end lost us a game we should of had in the bag. I started dwelling on it and felt his stupid playcalling has cost us quite a few games. Then the next week the raiders blowout:tsk:.

Mcdaniels has me fuming right now. I have not lost all hope I am willing to give him a chance but he better start proving himself next week.

red98
10-27-2010, 02:48 PM
Seriously. Why?

I'm asking because the negativity toward McD has been present since 18 seconds after he was named coach of the Broncos. Now, I'm not implying that fans should have blind devotion to a coach, but it's very apparent that a sect of Broncos fans have never given McD any respect and repeatedly blame him for anything - from not being to run the football to the reason they're constipated.

So what is it? Is he too young? Too cocky? Too willing to apologize to fans? Too tied to New England? Too quick to realize the fan favorite players he traded wouldn't work in his system? Too short?

Honestly, what is it? This is free-form, unfiltered. Don't say what you think you should, say what you mean.

Prediction: I'll regret starting this thread by 4 p.m. CST.

I don't think that's true. Though there might of been a few who wanted someone else as the new HC and took it out on McD.

There were a few more when he got rid of some assistant coaches, then more when he got rid of the personnel guys and way more when he dumped Cutler.

For me it's clear that McD is in way over his head when it comes to personnel. He has refused to use any top draft picks on the DL and not much on D at all.

He has wasted draft picks on projects and seems to have problems getting along with some players for whatever reason.

He has made a couple of good free agent picks though (dawkins,goodman).

That and 59-14 RAIDERS are why I don't like McD.

I Eat Staples
10-27-2010, 02:56 PM
Because I like the Broncos.

Northman
10-27-2010, 02:57 PM
For me its not even about hatred. In fact, i get more annoyed by those who apologize for everything he does rather than the man himself.

I will say this, i dont think McD was ever hated from day 1. I think most of those who totally dislike the guy became apparent when the Jay Cutler trade talks came up. Before that i think many and most Bronco fans were excited for a new direction that had become stale under Shanahan.

Most fans were just simply blindsided by the idea that McD would even have the gall to trade Cutler after a promising start in his career. All that followed up by the problems he has had with other coaches and players its hard to side with someone who is that hard to work with.

Even with all that though i was willing to give the man a chance (and i still have too because his job security is not in my hands anyway) and after a 6-0 start last year i thought he was going to be our guy. But, yet again the collapse at the end of the season and the scapegoating of Nolan rubbed me the wrong way with him. And the fact that we have a worse defense this year than last is proof in the pudding that Nolan wasnt the problem last year.

At the end of the day the owner stated publically that he was tired of not making the playoffs, tired of not winning SB's and that the firing of Shanahan was too get back to those days. Never was it stated by the owner that this would be a total ripdown of the progress the team was already making. Sure, new coaches will bring their own schemes and playbooks into the fold. The problem is, a smart coach would have tried to work with what he has first before deciding it wasnt going to work and make his changes then.

That didnt happen with the Broncos. Now, a year or so later we are not seeing the progress that we were promised even though plenty of other teams that have struggled not only recently but for YEARS are now showing more improvement than we are. Last week was just the same thing this team has seen and frankly people are fed up with this type of play from a team once proud to be associated with Denver.

If the hatred has gotten out of control its because for those who criticize McD they are constantly attacked and or the defenders try to point to the previous regime as a legitimate excuse for why McD should be failing here. I have no problem with people challenging why McD is failing in Denver. I really dont. But i do have a problem with people blaming a past coach or making the topic about me instead focusing on the problem at hand.

It shouldnt matter that fans want to bash the players and coach for their lousy play in Denver. The fans that do that should not be the topic and told that they should support the current coach no matter what. Thats silly talk and is totally unacceptable to fans who have invested their time and worth into this team for years. I cant make it anymore clear I WILL NOT ACCEPT MEDIOCRITY OR LOSING. I will continue to root for my team every week like i have done for 28 years, nothing will ever change that. But i will not hold my tongue about how i feel the is performing or the lack of success they are having. If someone wants to be a rah rah person every week fantastic. But dont come on here trying to challenge my fanhood like i dont have a right to say how i feel. That kind of shit is for cowards.

Finally, if McD can change the team around and win than great. Im all for it, i would LOVE for him to prove me wrong. Because at the end of the day i just want to win and get back to where we once were. But until he proves he is the man for the job he will continue to take criticism until he has proven he can be a winner. Whether or not someone hates McD is not even the important part here. What should be important is how the team is performing and is the HC living up to the expectations of those fans. For some he is, for others, not so much.

tomjonesrocks
10-27-2010, 02:58 PM
Can I answer a question with a question?

Why SHOULDN'T we hate McDaniels?

weazel
10-27-2010, 02:58 PM
well I got sick with E.Coli after eating at McD's when I was 19. Thats why I hate it.

gnomeflinger
10-27-2010, 02:58 PM
I don't hate him. I don't hate anyone. I just think he's been making some decisions that aren't beneficial to the organization. I feel like he's over his head with being the HC of the Broncos.

BigDaddyBronco
10-27-2010, 03:11 PM
I hated him until he traded Cutler, then I started to love him.

I Eat Staples
10-27-2010, 03:18 PM
Can I answer a question with a question?

Why SHOULDN'T we hate McDaniels?

This. He has ONLY given us reason to want him gone.

I won't say I hate him because well I don't know him personally. I may say it as an expression or out of anger, but I wouldn't hate a person I never met. But I do feel very strongly that he should not be coaching the Broncos. He has never given us reason to believe he's a good coach.

Italianmobstr7
10-27-2010, 03:20 PM
I don't hate him. I like him. I think he's going to be a good coach for us, and I think that he hasn't been great yet but he will. I think a lot of people dislike him because of the personnel moves that were made. I'm a BRONCOS fan though. Players that didn't want to be here, aren't here any longer. I'm fine with that. I think we'll be just fine and I'm very excited for the future of this team.

arapaho2
10-27-2010, 03:22 PM
i never hated him...i was stoked when he came...figured with our young up and comeing offense under a coach willing to fix the defense would only make for a better team

i praised him further with the hireing of nolan

since that point its been a series of personal conflicts between him and players...brash decisions...foolish trades...wasted picks...and a below .500 team getting our asses handed to us twice by the raiders and once by the chiefs big time

whats is there to like?

Mike
10-27-2010, 03:24 PM
Don't hate McD at all. I was a supporter until Sunday. I think he has given plenty of evidence as to why he shouldn't be Broncos HC and Sunday's game was the final straw.

Northman
10-27-2010, 03:26 PM
Don't hate McD at all. I was a supporter until Sunday. I think he has given plenty of evidence as to why he shouldn't be Broncos HC and Sunday's game was the final straw.

Very true. You were a avid supporter for a long time. Shazam (although im sure he still supports the Broncos as well) was pretty displeased with recent events and he was a huge backer as well.

Slick
10-27-2010, 03:32 PM
It's not hate. I think it seems more overwhelming right now because a lot of the "wait and see" crowd around here hasn't seen anything to warrant an optimistic attitude.

Sunday's game was the proverbial straw.

BigDaddyBronco
10-27-2010, 03:35 PM
I haven't been happy with the way this season has gone and am particularly upset over the failures in the OLine and running game.

But, I'm a long term vision guy and don't usually get caught up in a handful of games to base my decision around. I want to see what the rest of this season looks like, plus the offseason, plus the draft, plus the preseason. If it looks bad early next year, I'll have a torch and pitchfork as well.

I started to see the holes in Shanny's armor in the 2006 season, but gave him until the 2008 season until I thought he should go, I was a one more year guy and it was the DC's fault guy. I just can't give up on a HC that shows some promise until the 3rd year, unless he inherits an outstanding team or loses the team by being a tyrant.

rationalfan
10-27-2010, 03:42 PM
I'm a long term vision guy and don't usually get caught up in a handful of games to base my decision around.

can fans still do that? i thought we had to be reactive at all times.

Northman
10-27-2010, 03:44 PM
I just can't give up on a HC that shows some promise until the 3rd year, unless he inherits an outstanding team or loses the team by being a tyrant.


I can, ive seen other young coaches improve much earlier all without the young talented core they didnt inherit when they went into their respective organizations. This wait until 3 years to show something is vastly overrated especially considering how the situation was when Mcd came in.

BroncoTech
10-27-2010, 03:51 PM
In order to make a change successful the result must be better or at least as good as what you had before. You could make a point that the ghost of Shanny was still running the team the first games of last year. Standing on his record Josh has been a failure, and is not better than what we previously had with with Shanny.

I don't hate Josh but he could be considered a failure to the changes that were made and the opportunity he was given. I see a difficult time turning this around. While the players are saying they didn't give up on Josh I do think they quit playing for him. I had a little league coach that used to say he could tell the effort you were putting in from how dirty your uniform is after the game. In comparison the Broncos players uniforms looked like they stepped off the set of a Tide laundry detergent advertisement last Sunday. Sticking your arm out hoping it hits McFadden as he runs by isn't much effort compared to diving into his legs and eating a bit of turf in the process.

BigDaddyBronco
10-27-2010, 03:53 PM
I can, ive seen other young coaches improve much earlier all without the young talented core they didnt inherit when they went into their respective organizations. This wait until 3 years to show something is vastly overrated especially considering how the situation was when Mcd came in.

Depends on how many hig round draft picks they have had recently (see Detroit, SF, Arizona, etc), plus how many current stars they have, and how much dead weight they have on the team.

The Saints had a great 1st year under Sean Payton, then had a 7-9 year and then an 8-8 year. If they would have said, "Oh our team isn't improving and we are mediocre and fired Peyton to start rebuilding, they would have not won the SB last year. I use this as an example of not rushing to jusdgement. I want to see how the rest of the year pans out, how we play, and how we do next year, before I lable him a bust.

Slick
10-27-2010, 03:54 PM
Many fans are extremely emotionally involved. How could anyone be surprised by the reaction on forums or the newspapers after that game.

It's Wednesday and i bet half of Denver is still driving to work with a death grip on the steering wheel, grinding their teeth and listening to sports talk radio. Those guys sure ain't going to try to stamp out the fire, it's good business.

Somebody's definitely going to be the focus of that rage.

Lonestar
10-27-2010, 03:54 PM
Seriously. Why?

I'm asking because the negativity toward McD has been present since 18 seconds after he was named coach of the Broncos. Now, I'm not implying that fans should have blind devotion to a coach, but it's very apparent that a sect of Broncos fans has never given McD any respect and repeatedly blame him for anything - from not being to run the football to the reason they're constipated.

So what is it? Is he too young? Too cocky? Too willing to apologize to fans? Too tied to New England? Too quick to realize the fan favorite players he traded wouldn't work in his system? Too short?

Honestly, what is it? This is free-form, unfiltered. Don't say what you think you should, say what you mean.

Prediction: I'll regret starting this thread by 4 p.m. CST.

Bravo. Maybe some of the closet haters will come out and acutally admit they are. Great thead.
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topscribe
10-27-2010, 03:55 PM
I hate McDaniels because he can pay his rent . . .



. . . and I could easily lose as many games as he's losing . . .



-----

shank
10-27-2010, 03:56 PM
i don't hate the guy, but he's definitely sleeping on the couch for a while.

NorCalBronco7
10-27-2010, 03:57 PM
Whatever the case, its still to early to label McDaniels anything.

camdisco24
10-27-2010, 04:29 PM
I don't hate McD, in fact ive tried to support him as much as possible.
However, some of the circumstances of this season really has me frustrated. We either look good, or we look horrible.
Unfortunately, we've looked horrible more often than not.
I HATE when my Broncos lose and I hate when I see things happening to the organization that could be avoided.
McD came in talking the talk, and he has yet to walk the walk. When that changes, i'll go right back to supporting him.

Ravage!!!
10-27-2010, 04:40 PM
I've been accused of being a McD hater, but I didn't start out disliking him.

In FACT, even though I was a BIG Shanahan guy, when I was called out in a thread on the other board asking about the Shanahan firing, I frankly said:

http://forums.denverbroncos.com/showthread.php?t=131471&highlight=Ravage!!!&page=3

"I'm shocked but not REALLY shocked.... At the time, when the Chiefs let go of Marty Schottenheimer, I said it was just 'time.' Players throughout their HS and college career stick with one coach for MAYBE five years? They get to the NFL, and after 10, the same speeches, the same routine, the same things said in teh locker room, the same the same the same..... just gets old. Doesnt' really mean its the coach, its just the same. Its like that 7 year itch married couples get. Things get stale, even when they are good....

I think that whomever comes in, will have a VERy solid offense with a stud QB going into only his 4th season, a star WR, a solid #2 and a MAN at LT. The main pieces are there. Now its just a matter of personnel on defense, and that is obviously where Shanahan has completely failed... the defense. Defensive personnel is what lost Shanahan his job.

But... as much as I'm worried about the change, and concerned about the coaching spin that we are likely to go through now... I'm also excited for next year. We have so many pieces in place, and so many young players that got playing time this year...

Before we label EITHER of those coach moves (since last year) a "success"... lets actually see what they do when they put THEIR fingerprints on the team. After all, even bozo (Turner) had a good season his first year in SD. Mora won 11 games his FIRST year in Atlanta. Wannstedt won 11 games his first year in Miami."
----------------------------------------------

After reading the resume on McD (when he was hired) I was excited about the young coach.

But then, the ego starting popping up. YeS I was upset about the Cutler trade. To me, it was absolutely ABSURD to trade away an up-n-coming star for Matt Cassel (please, if you still think he wasn't actively trying to trade for Cassel...). I don't CARE what you think about Cutler's attitude. I don't buy into this toatal "junk" that he "didn't fit the system." Crap. Total bull. It wasn't so much about Cutler himself, but rather the ridiculousness of the move for a first time HC to come in and do. To trade for Matt Cassel? Can you imagine this? Your first move is to sign and pay the MOST for any long-snapper purely because he's from your old team, and the next thing you are doing is to trade away a pro-bowl QB for Matt Cassel ( and try to do it "secretly" as if no media outlets would find out). Welcome to the NFL. His Ego just would NOT let him say the right things. He INTENTIONALLY was doing his best to put himself on a mountain top before he actually CLIMBED up to that chair. As if he deserved any respect without earning it.

It was as if the young kid couldn't step out on his own and establish his own identity. He was TRYING SOOOO HARD to duplicate Belicheck. Right down to wearing the sweatshirt on the field. Also, don't give me this "Bowlen wanted teh NE way." Either. The NFL is a copy-cat league for sure, but many people have won Super Bowls before Belly, and many more will after. The owners aren't lining up and hoping to do things "the NE way." Thats just something the NE newspapers (and probably Bosco) try to sell you.

Then it was spending next years first round picks for CBs, moving up to take blockign TEs. Everyone knew AT THE TIME that this kid had no idea, and that Bowlen had given TOO much power over personnel to a kid that has NEVER done a single thing in the NFL away from Belicheck and Brady.

After making Marshall play gunner on special teams and trying to embarrass him on the practice field, I could SEE that he just did NOT want to get along with players. He WANTED to start fights to PROVE he was the boss. It was as if he was pounding his chest and DARING anyone to not kiss his ring. He FORCED us to watch every single move he made with a microscope because he was making some MAJOR moves for a guy that has NEVER had a single day's worth of being "in charge." He was making catastrophic moves that franchises just don't make...especially when you are JUST getting to a team in your first year as a HC.

Then of course, came the infamous benching of our two most important offensive weapons against a division rival for contention of the playoffs.:tsk:

The best move he made ws getting Nolan. But, Nolan was getting too much credit for the wins. That wouldn't be giving the light to McD, thus......Nolan, TOO, had to go!!

The Purging of talent from this team's offense, to me, was just absurdly ridiculous. It had nothing to do with "headcases" or "team" mentality. It had to do with the fact that these players had a bigger name than McD did. They were the fan favorites of this team. The media kept asking about each one of them, they were the stars, and that wasn't going to do. McD was the star, HE should be the focus. Belicheck got the praise in NE, HE should get the praise and glory in Denver.

And so he is. He certainly has the focus on him now. He felt there was a need to completely wipe and start over, and now he's reaping the rewards of his MASSIVE ego while putting HIS FINGERPRINTS all over this team. There was NO need to wipe. There was NO need to purge. It was PURELY based on HIS needs and NOT the needs of the TEAM <-------

Thats why I don't like him.

arapaho2
10-27-2010, 04:48 PM
brilliant post rav:elefant:

G_Money
10-27-2010, 05:12 PM
When we hired McDaniels, I was cautiously optimistic. My keys for his hire were:

1) If we hire an offensive guy, then I assume he's going to caretake the good pieces he was given (Bookend Tackles perfect for the ZBS, a pair of outstanding wideouts, a gunslinging QB with an INT problem, etc) and upgrade the non-star positions. Otherwise there's no sense hiring an offensive HC who will be calling his own plays when we could hire a defensive-minded coach and keep Bates and some of Shanahan's crew to run the O. Offense wasn't our problem.

2) What kind of staff can he put together? If he can't put together a top-notch staff then we'll be in trouble no matter what he does. At the time the rumor was that he was gonna bring Dom Capers off the NE staff where he was a consultant, and I thought that would be a great move. Dom had been a HC before, twice, and was a defensive guru. That would give new-coach McDaniels a guy who had done it all before, someone to lean on while he got his feet under him.

3) Can we keep the GM and HC separate? I don't want combined powers. Shanahan couldn't do it, Holmgren couldn't do it...most guys can't. It's just too much work. We'd FINALLY started drafting some decent talent and I wanted to keep adding to that pipeline.

--------------

How'd that work?

1 - So then McDaniels got in a fight with Cutler for his first move, after firing Bates because he was extraneous. He tried a mash of ZBS and man-blocking, didn't like it, and went with a man scheme that he had exactly zero guys that it suited. That neutered the only players he really kept from Shanny's offense (the tackles), with the exception of Royal, who was lost and useless in Josh's offense.

We then spent all the extra draft picks we got on offense, unless we were flushing defensive backs, I guess.

Rather than keeping the half-a-great offense he was provided with, he tore down that offense and started from the ground up with it. Result? Two years later our running game is the laughingstock of the league, it's getting harder to throw with our pass-happy scheme even with improved talent at WR and even QB. Not content with the turnover improvement at QB, we drafted a new QB in the first round who may not be able to throw a ball well enough in the NFL to last. Getting nervous about that, we signed Orton to an extension. In other words, a LOT of effort on the passing attack when we already had a fine passing attack when he got here...and backsliding in the run game.

2 - On defense, we skipped Capers but grabbed Nolan, another good defensive mind (though not as good as Capers) who had been a head coach. Same plan, I thought - rely on the guy who had done it before while Josh got used to it. And he was still a vast improvement over Slowik.

Only Josh couldn't get along with Nolan, the two feuded, and Nolan left to coach D in Miami - which has a better D than us now, I might add, by a ways.

We replaced Nolan with a guy who had never been a DC before in his career.

The rest of the staff look okay. There's some cronyism but some talented coaches as well. If it's making a difference, it's not obvious. The OL coach had never been an OL coach before either in the pros, doing all his work with TEs. The QB coach is his brother. There are questions about those sorts of things.

3 - Nope, we have a GM in name only, just like Shanahan had with Sundquist. There was a feud with the Goodmans for control that was won by McDaniels, who ousted them. This left him so unprepared for the draft that he only had 40 names on his draft board and created headaches that have lasted through this year. We drafted no DL, going with aging vets to patch that line again. When Shanahan did that, it was folly. With McDaniels, I'm supposed to believe it's genius? DL take 3 years after drafting to become impact players, on average. None of the young ones we have are going to make it to being impact guys, and any we draft will not help right this for us before 2013 or so. That's the result of remaking an offense that didn't need to be remade and needing to use the draft to do it in consecutive years, to middling effect.

---------------

So yeah, my cautious optimism has been replaced by pessimism. All the things I wanted to see from Josh I haven't seen. He fights with players and fires them, fights with coaches and GMs and fires them too. Nothing he was given was good enough even as a placeholder, and all of it had to be removed (hence the 82% changeover in roster instead of the 50-65% I would expect to see). Staff hasn't managed to stay constant - half of them from last year are gone, downgraded to the current incarnation. And all his drafts have managed to do is increase uncertainty rather than talent.

I defended the selection of McDaniels when he was first hired. Goodman and Cutler helped change my cautious optimism to serious doubt real quick.

And this season has been even lower than expectations thus far. That's not hate, that's just watching a guy waste whatever parts of the team he might have been given and expend TONS of energy trying to micromanage every little thing, as more and more things slip through the ever-widening cracks.

It's gotta change.

~G

G_Money
10-27-2010, 05:15 PM
He certainly has the focus on him now. He felt there was a need to completely wipe and start over, and now he's reaping the rewards of his MASSIVE ego while putting HIS FINGERPRINTS all over this team. There was NO need to wipe. There was NO need to purge. It was PURELY based on HIS needs and NOT the needs of the TEAM <-------

Thats why I don't like him.

What Rav said.

McDaniels seems like he wanted to be sure there wouldn't be a single other person to share credit if he succeeded.

And now there is no place else to point the blame as he fails. So he better find success soon.

~G

UnderArmour
10-27-2010, 05:18 PM
BECAUSE WE JUST GOT OUR ASSES KICKED BY THE OAKLAND RAIDERS! The OAKLAND RAIDERS. Of course I hate his guts right now until he gets the team together. Do I think he should be fired? No. He deserves more time.

Nomad
10-27-2010, 05:25 PM
I hated him until he traded Cutler, then I started to love him.

True dat!!!


It's not hate. I think it seems more overwhelming right now because a lot of the "wait and see" crowd around here hasn't seen anything to warrant an optimistic attitude.

Sunday's game was the proverbial straw.

I would consider myself as a 'wait and see'. The Raiders game did move me closer to the 'doubting' crowd, but I'm not fully there yet!! I'll let the season play out and I give McD a little leeway with the injuries especially to the defense!! If the BRONCOS play shitty in London like last Sunday, I will get really discouraged!! Can't blame it on jet lag either because the 9ers will have travelled just as far and probably have more jet lag!!

slim
10-27-2010, 05:29 PM
I agree that some people never gave him a chance. Personally, I took a wait-and-see approach.

I think 23 games is an ample sample size and overall he hasn't done much in those 23 games. The team has the same deficiencies it had when he took over (the offense can move the ball between the 20's but can't score and the defense and special teams still suck). Not exactly what I was hoping for when he was hired.

I don't hate the guy, but he has not done what he was hired to do.

I blame Pat for some of this mess, simply because he did not change the structure of the front office (should have learned this from shanny's tenure).

Dreadnought
10-27-2010, 05:32 PM
From another thread @ a month ago. He's certainly done nothing to change my mind since then :lol:

As a naturally lazy man I'll just copy and paste here

His personnel and leadership skills are flat out dismal. I have worked for both great and awful bosses in my life, and he represents almost every management and leadership flaw I think there is.

I hate, and I believe him to be guilty of every one of these errors. While some apply most specifically to NFL coaching, all also apply to leadership and character.

1) He falls in love with his own plans. When they don't work he blames others, not his own plans. A sign of weak character.

2) Coming into a new organization and larding up the roster with flunkies, chair sniffers, and yes-men from his last job. This can be done in extreme moderation, but doing things like getting rid of Mike Leach the way he did sent a message to all the existing guys on the roster that they were goners even if there was no issue with their play. It was ridiculous and an unforced error.

3) Refusal to acknowledge that there is existing talent in the new organization. Helps destroy teamwork, and sends a message its all about him. I believe he is more selfish and less team oriented than the worst Diva WR out there.

4) Ranting and raving in public. A complete pet peeve of mine, and usually a symptom of poor leadership IMO

5) Dressing down and humiliating subordinates in public, and especially in front of their peers. I detest this

6) Stubbornness. A weak and stupid man's imitation of resolve.

7) Ego. arrogance, and enormous self esteem. See also points 1-6 above. he is a cocky SOB, and I dislike cocky SOB's.

8) Dishonesty with subordinates. No, not just the Jay Cutler/Matt Cassell fiasco, though that counts. Lie to the press all you want (as a coach) because they aren't your friends. That said, don't wage wars in the media with your own subordinates, e.g. Marshall and Scheffler in the week 17 benching incident last year - and in any event his explanation of what happened in that doesn't pass the laugh test. If you lie to your subordinates, in any field, you can't lead them


If he won a Superbowl I would concede he was a better coach than I thought. I would be elated for the Broncos - and I still wouldn't miss him if he announced in the post game interview that he was going to resign and move to Borneo to open an orphanage.

I rate his liklihood of winning a Superbowl as about zero however

LoyalSoldier
10-27-2010, 05:33 PM
For me it isn't that I hate him so much as he came into Denver with the "My way is better than your way" attitude and has ran anyone who didn't agree with him out of town. So now I am basically saying "Well if your way is better then prove it" and thus far he hasn't done it.

arapaho2
10-27-2010, 05:36 PM
I agree that some people never gave him a chance. Personally, I took a wait-and-see approach.

I think 23 games is an ample sample size and overall he hasn't done much in those 23 games. The team has the same deficiencies it had when he took over (the offense can move the ball between the 20's but can't score and the defense and special teams still suck). Not exactly what I was hoping for when he was hired.

I don't hate the guy, but he has not done what he was hired to do.

I blame Pat for some of this mess, simply because he did not change the structure of the front office (should have learned this from shanny's tenure).

i think the overwhelming majority of fans looked at mcd as a new and exciteing prospect for a coach...the supposed qb friendly offense...the stated excitement to begin working with cutler...the promise to improve the red zone offense

certainly a few die hard shanny guys hated it...but most of us recognized a change was needed

what we ended up with isnt close to the hype of what we were supposed to get

arapaho2
10-27-2010, 05:37 PM
For me it isn't that I hate him so much as he came into Denver with the "My way is better than your way" attitude and has ran anyone who didn't agree with him out of town. So now I am basically saying "Well if your way is better then prove it" and thus far he hasn't done it.


yeah i remember him bashing shanny about the redzone offense....too bad his is actually worse

jhildebrand
10-27-2010, 05:56 PM
I was pretty happy when he was named HC. I thought and still do think he can design a play/offense with the best of them.

I lauded, time and again, the move to hired Nolan a former HC, as his DC.

I like McD the coach. I don't like the player evaluator, I don't like the way he handles 'situations,' I liked the Cutler trade not the way he went about it, I don't like his attitude towards the media.

At the end of the day, I am not definitely set on seeing him released. I want to see what he can do with the rest of this season. However, anything short of 7-9 and I will be the first to admit I don't think I want another year.

Shazam!
10-27-2010, 05:59 PM
McDaniels was my first choice as HC. He had my full support until our Denver Broncos suffered the second worst defeat in team history, at home, to a mediocre division rival in a must win game. The team looked totally unprepared, lifeless, the coach looked clueless on the sideline, reagrdless of the score the team looked leaderless. His lack of emotion during the press conference following a humilating defeat was the icing on the cake.

Also the fact they couldn't close out the NYJ when they had many chances to was telling as well in hindsight.

...but I don't hate McDaniels. I don't necessarily believe in him anymore. I have a right to feel that way too after last week. Can Denver bounce back? Of course. But the chances of that are slim, and I have no reason to feel that McDaniels can if he couldn't rally the troops after the NYJ loss, or to keep it competitive last week.

topscribe
10-27-2010, 06:03 PM
yeah i remember him bashing shanny about the redzone offense....too bad his is actually worse

Yes, and we're not talking about things being equal, either. McDaniels' present QB
had a 97 QBR in the RZ when he came to town. His RB is better than anybody
Shanny had since Portis . . . or at least Mike Anderson.

But he does have one disadvantage: He shipped off the TE who could make all
the difference in the world in the RZ.

Things that make you go hmmm? :confused:

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Krugan
10-27-2010, 06:26 PM
Iv got a question too.

Why is that when anyone has a opinion that is less the glowing for someone it is labled as "hate"?

Thats a very powerful word and shouldnt be used as lightly as it is.

That being said, lack of confidence that this guy can right the ship that he built with poor wood.

From a Bronco fan who remembers the very first super bowl loss and had a Morton jersey up until his ex-wife decided it would be a good place for her dog to give berth.

Northman
10-27-2010, 06:34 PM
When we hired McDaniels, I was cautiously optimistic. My keys for his hire were:

1) If we hire an offensive guy, then I assume he's going to caretake the good pieces he was given (Bookend Tackles perfect for the ZBS, a pair of outstanding wideouts, a gunslinging QB with an INT problem, etc) and upgrade the non-star positions. Otherwise there's no sense hiring an offensive HC who will be calling his own plays when we could hire a defensive-minded coach and keep Bates and some of Shanahan's crew to run the O. Offense wasn't our problem.

2) What kind of staff can he put together? If he can't put together a top-notch staff then we'll be in trouble no matter what he does. At the time the rumor was that he was gonna bring Dom Capers off the NE staff where he was a consultant, and I thought that would be a great move. Dom had been a HC before, twice, and was a defensive guru. That would give new-coach McDaniels a guy who had done it all before, someone to lean on while he got his feet under him.

3) Can we keep the GM and HC separate? I don't want combined powers. Shanahan couldn't do it, Holmgren couldn't do it...most guys can't. It's just too much work. We'd FINALLY started drafting some decent talent and I wanted to keep adding to that pipeline.

--------------

How'd that work?

1 - So then McDaniels got in a fight with Cutler for his first move, after firing Bates because he was extraneous. He tried a mash of ZBS and man-blocking, didn't like it, and went with a man scheme that he had exactly zero guys that it suited. That neutered the only players he really kept from Shanny's offense (the tackles), with the exception of Royal, who was lost and useless in Josh's offense.

We then spent all the extra draft picks we got on offense, unless we were flushing defensive backs, I guess.

Rather than keeping the half-a-great offense he was provided with, he tore down that offense and started from the ground up with it. Result? Two years later our running game is the laughingstock of the league, it's getting harder to throw with our pass-happy scheme even with improved talent at WR and even QB. Not content with the turnover improvement at QB, we drafted a new QB in the first round who may not be able to throw a ball well enough in the NFL to last. Getting nervous about that, we signed Orton to an extension. In other words, a LOT of effort on the passing attack when we already had a fine passing attack when he got here...and backsliding in the run game.

2 - On defense, we skipped Capers but grabbed Nolan, another good defensive mind (though not as good as Capers) who had been a head coach. Same plan, I thought - rely on the guy who had done it before while Josh got used to it. And he was still a vast improvement over Slowik.

Only Josh couldn't get along with Nolan, the two feuded, and Nolan left to coach D in Miami - which has a better D than us now, I might add, by a ways.

We replaced Nolan with a guy who had never been a DC before in his career.

The rest of the staff look okay. There's some cronyism but some talented coaches as well. If it's making a difference, it's not obvious. The OL coach had never been an OL coach before either in the pros, doing all his work with TEs. The QB coach is his brother. There are questions about those sorts of things.

3 - Nope, we have a GM in name only, just like Shanahan had with Sundquist. There was a feud with the Goodmans for control that was won by McDaniels, who ousted them. This left him so unprepared for the draft that he only had 40 names on his draft board and created headaches that have lasted through this year. We drafted no DL, going with aging vets to patch that line again. When Shanahan did that, it was folly. With McDaniels, I'm supposed to believe it's genius? DL take 3 years after drafting to become impact players, on average. None of the young ones we have are going to make it to being impact guys, and any we draft will not help right this for us before 2013 or so. That's the result of remaking an offense that didn't need to be remade and needing to use the draft to do it in consecutive years, to middling effect.

---------------

So yeah, my cautious optimism has been replaced by pessimism. All the things I wanted to see from Josh I haven't seen. He fights with players and fires them, fights with coaches and GMs and fires them too. Nothing he was given was good enough even as a placeholder, and all of it had to be removed (hence the 82% changeover in roster instead of the 50-65% I would expect to see). Staff hasn't managed to stay constant - half of them from last year are gone, downgraded to the current incarnation. And all his drafts have managed to do is increase uncertainty rather than talent.

I defended the selection of McDaniels when he was first hired. Goodman and Cutler helped change my cautious optimism to serious doubt real quick.

And this season has been even lower than expectations thus far. That's not hate, that's just watching a guy waste whatever parts of the team he might have been given and expend TONS of energy trying to micromanage every little thing, as more and more things slip through the ever-widening cracks.

It's gotta change.

~G


Couldnt of said it better myself. Awesome post.

claymore
10-27-2010, 06:42 PM
I honestly dont see why anyone would like the guy. I can understand people Hoping he is a good HC, or will be one day... But I dont understand how people can say "I like what he has done so far".

BeefStew25
10-27-2010, 06:45 PM
I am sure he is a great husband and father.

slim
10-27-2010, 06:46 PM
IDK, I bet he yells at his kids when they spill their milk.

topscribe
10-27-2010, 06:47 PM
I am sure he is a great husband and father.

He provides for them very well . . .

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Dreadnought
10-27-2010, 06:47 PM
I honestly dont see why anyone would like the guy. I can understand people Hoping he is a good HC, or will be one day... But I dont understand how people can say "I like what he has done so far".

He excels in tough guy talk. Apparently that is enough. He talks way tougher than Shanahan. He doesn't talk as tough as Rex Ryan yet, but he is learning.

topscribe
10-27-2010, 06:48 PM
He excels in tough guy talk. Apparently that is enough. He talks way tougher than Shanahan. He doesn't talk as tough as Rex Ryan yet, but he is learning.

Albeit an octave higher . . .

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Krugan
10-27-2010, 06:49 PM
Top has the funny today. :beer:

claymore
10-27-2010, 06:49 PM
He excels in tough guy talk. Apparently that is enough. He talks way tougher than Shanahan. He doesn't talk as tough as Rex Ryan yet, but he is learning.

Everything the guy does irritates me. He is the guy at the bar that you think is a doosh bag. If that makes sense.

OrangeHoof
10-27-2010, 06:49 PM
Hate is too strong a word but I regret that he's here and know, deep down, that the Broncos will not be winners again until after he's replaced.

I'm a diehard fan of a particular baseball team. Recently, that team had a manager who couldn't control his players, made bonehead moves that caused the veterans to rebel, had poor communications skills, threw guys under the bus, took losing out on everyone but himself, etc.

It didn't take long to figure out that the team would never be any good until he was replaced. It didn't make me hate the team or stop rooting for them to win every game. I just realized the stark truth that the team would never be any good with that type of leadership.

I see a similar situation with McDaniels. Like this manager, he was hired for all the wrong reasons and had not proven to anyone that he deserved the job yet he strutted around as if he was better than everyone to the point that you got tired very quickly of his act and waited for the day to come where he'd receive his comeuppance. When it came for this manager, I did feel a bit sorry for him because I never root for someone to be fired (there are wife and family to consider) but I was relieved to see him go and the new guy has proven to be so much better that there is hope even if the overall record hasn't reflected it yet.

So, I'm still a Broncos fan, watch them whenever possible and root for them to win but, deep down, I know it isn't going to happen with McDaniels at the helm so I'm just biding my time until a new guy gets here and I see evidence of real improvement.

claymore
10-27-2010, 06:50 PM
Top has the funny today. :beer:

He might have OD'ed on boner medicine. Lets keep an eye on him.

topscribe
10-27-2010, 06:50 PM
Everything the guy does irritates me. He is the guy at the bar that you think is a doosh bag. If that makes sense.

That's the guy who won't pay for a drink . . .

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Northman
10-27-2010, 06:51 PM
I honestly dont see why anyone would like the guy. I can understand people Hoping he is a good HC, or will be one day... But I dont understand how people can say "I like what he has done so far".


Im guessing a few different things. Some have their own agenda in terms of Shanahan's regime and ANYTHING to do with it in terms of players, etc. And then there are some who are in denial about the state of the team. Some dont want to believe that we really could be looking to a bleak future for a while. But, im not one to sit by and allow that too happen without voicing my concerns over it. As fans we deserve a better product than what we are getting out there both from the HC and the players.

topscribe
10-27-2010, 06:51 PM
He might have OD'ed on boner medicine. Lets keep an eye on him.

Which reminds me . . . I've been meaning to talk to you about Nut . . .

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claymore
10-27-2010, 06:51 PM
That's the guy who won't pay for a drink . . .

-----

McD is one of those guys that pops his collar and styles his hair like a puerto rican from NY.

topscribe
10-27-2010, 06:53 PM
McD is one of those guys that pops his collar and styles his hair like a puerto rican from NY.

I've never seen him pop his collar.

He smacks his lips a lot . . .

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slim
10-27-2010, 06:53 PM
Im guessing a few different things. Some have their own agenda in terms of Shanahan's regime and ANYTHING to do with it in terms of players, etc. And then there are some who are in denial about the state of the team. Some dont want to believe that we really could be looking to a bleak future for a while. But, im not one to sit by and allow that too happen without voicing my concerns over it. As fans we deserve a better product than what we are getting out there both from the HC and the players.

Keep your chin up, big guy.

Things will get better...someday.

Krugan
10-27-2010, 06:53 PM
so this is the rocky mountian foothills version of the jersey shore?

Man, why...

Northman
10-27-2010, 06:54 PM
Keep your chin up, big guy.

Things will get better...someday.


I just take it week to week at this point. :lol:

claymore
10-27-2010, 06:54 PM
Im guessing a few different things. Some have their own agenda in terms of Shanahan's regime and ANYTHING to do with it in terms of players, etc. And then there are some who are in denial about the state of the team. Some dont want to believe that we really could be looking to a bleak future for a while. But, im not one to sit by and allow that too happen without voicing my concerns over it. As fans we deserve a better product than what we are getting out there both from the HC and the players.

My worst fear is that McD will do the bare minimum to keep his job because Bowlen has invested so much in him (Draft picks, time, and controversy). I know McD is not the answer, every year he is at the helm is another wasted year.

IMO.

Northman
10-27-2010, 06:57 PM
My worst fear is that McD will do the bare minimum to keep his job because Bowlen has invested so much in him (Draft picks, time, and controversy). I know McD is not the answer, every year he is at the helm is another wasted year.

IMO.

Certainly a possibility. With all the same problems glaring their ugly head again it would seem we are in this constant cycle of mediocrity of showing glimpses here and there. The team and HC have some serious soul searching to do right now and need a serious gut check. The Niners are 1-6 but they arent just going to lay down on us this week so we better come prepared to play.

claymore
10-27-2010, 06:57 PM
One thing I owe Mcd though.... Is that I was a die hard Bronco fan before he got here. I took it way to seriously. His tenure woke me up and I am more of a normal person now.

claymore
10-27-2010, 06:59 PM
Certainly a possibility. With all the same problems glaring their ugly head again it would seem we are in this constant cycle of mediocrity of showing glimpses here and there. The team and HC have some serious soul searching to do right now and need a serious gut check. The Niners are 1-6 but they arent just going to lay down on us this week so we better come prepared to play.We will blow them out and everyone will love McD next week.

BeefStew25
10-27-2010, 06:59 PM
One thing I owe Mcd though.... Is that I was a die hard Bronco fan before he got here. I took it way to seriously. His tenure woke me up and I am more of a normal person now.

I owe him a debt also. When Bowlen fired Shanny and hired McD, many people did not renew their tickets. So, McD helped me get my tickets.

Northman
10-27-2010, 06:59 PM
One thing I owe Mcd though.... Is that I was a die hard Bronco fan before he got here. I took it way to seriously. His tenure woke me up and I am more of a normal person now.


You are anything but normal. :lol:

But thats what makes you UNIQUE.

claymore
10-27-2010, 07:00 PM
I owe him a debt also. When Bowlen fired Shanny and hired McD, many people did not renew their tickets. So, McD helped me get my tickets.


You are anything but normal. :lol:

But thats what makes you UNIQUE.

So what you guys are saying... Is that rainbows can come from tears too?

topscribe
10-27-2010, 07:01 PM
My worst fear is that McD will do the bare minimum to keep his job because Bowlen has invested so much in him (Draft picks, time, and controversy). I know McD is not the answer, every year he is at the helm is another wasted year.

IMO.

This is going back a long ways, but I remember how Lou Saban ruined what
promised to be a good young QB in Steve Tensi, with a pathetic O-line. (In fact,
Orton reminds me of the way Tensi played, when Tensi did have promise.)

Are we having a repeat here? How much more pounding can Orton take before
he's ruined, too?

Just a thought . . .

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Dreadnought
10-27-2010, 07:03 PM
So what you guys are saying... Is that rainbows can come from tears too?

That is the gheyest thing I have ever read, here or anywhere

claymore
10-27-2010, 07:03 PM
This is going back a long ways, but I remember how Lou Saban ruined what
promised to be a good young QB in Steve Tensi, with a pathetic O-line. (In fact,
Orton reminds me of the way Tensi played, when Tensi did have promise.)

Are we having a repeat here? How much more pounding can Orton take before
he's ruined, too?

Just a thought . . .

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Umm, probably 3 more sacks. :shocked:

OrangeHoof
10-27-2010, 07:08 PM
One thing I owe Mcd though.... Is that I was a die hard Bronco fan before he got here. I took it way to seriously. His tenure woke me up and I am more of a normal person now.

...meaning you didn't go nuclear with every loss? I know the feeling. I used to get so upset I'd turn myself into a pretzel when we were losing. Now, I'm more calm and philosophical.

claymore
10-27-2010, 07:14 PM
...meaning you didn't go nuclear with every loss? I know the feeling. I used to get so upset I'd turn myself into a pretzel when we were losing. Now, I'm more calm and philosophical.
I hear you. Id have nightmares about losses, the whole nine yards... Im much better now.

BeefStew25
10-27-2010, 07:15 PM
I did beat the shit out of my wife Sunday night.

claymore
10-27-2010, 07:16 PM
I did beat the shit out of my wife Sunday night.

So you played muslim aye?

BeefStew25
10-27-2010, 07:17 PM
So you played muslim aye?

I did. She is now reduced to being a vehicle of birth for my future suicide bombers.

Northman
10-27-2010, 07:33 PM
Yea, i used to get angry under Shanahan's tenure. But since McD has stunk it up ive become much more objective.

topscribe
10-27-2010, 07:47 PM
I did. She is now reduced to being a vehicle of birth for my future suicide bombers.

Your wife may need counseling now.

I hear Lorena Bobbitt is now in practice . . .

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BeefStew25
10-27-2010, 08:02 PM
Your wife may need counseling now.

I hear Lorena Bobbitt is now in practice . . .

-----

I need 72 Nub's.

Ravage!!!
10-27-2010, 08:07 PM
For me it isn't that I hate him so much as he came into Denver with the "My way is better than your way" attitude and has ran anyone who didn't agree with him out of town. So now I am basically saying "Well if your way is better then prove it" and thus far he hasn't done it.

This was something I forgot to mention. Ironically, some people that really like him have used the same quote as I'm about to use to declare a reason as to why they like him. Thats more than their right, but it was one of the things that rubbed me raw with his personality, early.

The fact that he said "we are going to get bigger, stronger, faster,and SMARTER".. told me RIGHT from the start that this guy felt himself to be smarter than anyone previously here. After all, we must have only had "dumb" players and that was no longer going to be accepted. HE was going to show that you must be "smart" to run his superior "system."

Funny enough... he's not looking too smart with his draft choices and letting good players go while our offense is struggling. We can't run, we can't block, and we can't score. Perhaps he needs to start evaluating physical talent rather than attempting to figure out whom can outsmart whom.

Dreadnought
10-27-2010, 08:24 PM
This was something I forgot to mention. Ironically, some people that really like him have used the same quote as I'm about to use to declare a reason as to why they like him. Thats more than their right, but it was one of the things that rubbed me raw with his personality, early.

The fact that he said "we are going to get bigger, stronger, faster,and SMARTER".. told me RIGHT from the start that this guy felt himself to be smarter than anyone previously here. After all, we must have only had "dumb" players and that was no longer going to be accepted. HE was going to show that you must be "smart" to run his superior "system."

Funny enough... he's not looking too smart with his draft choices and letting good players go while our offense is struggling. We can't run, we can't block, and we can't score. Perhaps he needs to start evaluating physical talent rather than attempting to figure out whom can outsmart whom.

Great point. Shanahan teams could fairly be criticized for some things, I'll concede. A bit soft, and could get smacked around by certain teams. Didn't close out seasons. Too small. Club med style preseason camps. Infatuated with finesse. One thing they never were was stupid. Its a principal of the Walsh/49ers coaching tree that stupid guys can't play as well (all other things equal), and they were big on testing

I Eat Staples
10-27-2010, 08:32 PM
I just can't give up on a HC that shows some promise until the 3rd year

Where in the world has he shown promise?


unless he inherits an outstanding team or loses the team by being a tyrant.

That's exactly what he's done...

Medford Bronco
10-27-2010, 08:56 PM
The team quit on him.
He blew a 6-0 record last year and did not adjust to at least get to the playoffs

He traded his #1 last year for a backup player

I have zero confidence right now.

This is a week to show if he is NFL coach material.

The Broncos should come out strong vs a sucky SF overrated team

we shall see.

I am a bronco fan but have very little faith in Mr Bubble Screen
and go for it on 4th down in situations (like at Jax and home vs Indy)
that dont work out.

REady for some flames but who cares, I said my peace

Broncos fan forevever but the most disappointed I have been in this team since 1990. The only year that Denver lost 11 games I can recall since I was a fan.

Dreadnought
10-27-2010, 09:09 PM
The team quit on him.
He blew a 6-0 record last year and did not adjust to at least get to the playoffs

He traded his #1 last year for a backup player

I have zero confidence right now.

This is a week to show if he is NFL coach material.

The Broncos should come out strong vs a sucky SF overrated team

we shall see.

I am a bronco fan but have very little faith in Mr Bubble Screen
and go for it on 4th down in situations (like at Jax and home vs Indy)
that dont work out.

REady for some flames but who cares, I said my peace

Broncos fan forevever but the most disappointed I have been in this team since 1990. The only year that Denver lost 11 games I can recall since I was a fan.

I remember the six game losing streak in 1990. Awful year, even for Elway. Didn't some guy sit in a tree or on a flagpole or something until we won again?

topscribe
10-27-2010, 09:23 PM
I remember the six game losing streak in 1990. Awful year, even for Elway. Didn't some guy sit in a tree or on a flagpole or something until we won again?

I remember that. I kept thinking, "I'm glad I'm not him."

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Lonestar
10-27-2010, 09:26 PM
Great point. Shanahan teams could fairly be criticized for some things, I'll concede. A bit soft, and could get smacked around by certain teams. Didn't close out seasons. Too small. Club med style preseason camps. Infatuated with finesse. One thing they never were was stupid. Its a principal of the Walsh/49ers coaching tree that stupid guys can't play as well (all other things equal), and they were big on testing

Did Y'all ever stop to think he might have been talking to jay when he said smarter as in throw to the open man opposed to forcing into mutiple coverage because his arm was stronger than johns. Or just maybe talking to bm about spouse beating drivinf dui ets etc etc. There are a lot of stupid penalties being called yet today thise are just two/three quick thoughts he might have been referring to not to mention the lower vunderlicht scores some player have.

Also knwoing that WR had to run precise routes to clear areas might have been part of that comment.

Dread I know you have never been a fan of anything NE and Rav has been a jay fans since I don't remember when. So I guess I'm not shocked to hear/see these comments only how subdued they are. :laugh::wink:
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Lonestar
10-27-2010, 09:42 PM
The team quit on him.
He blew a 6-0 record last year and did not adjust to at least get to the playoffs

He traded his #1 last year for a backup player

I have zero confidence right now.

This is a week to show if he is NFL coach material.

The Broncos should come out strong vs a sucky SF overrated team

we shall see.

I am a bronco fan but have very little faith in Mr Bubble Screen
and go for it on 4th down in situations (like at Jax and home vs Indy)
that dont work out.

REady for some flames but who cares, I said my peace

Broncos fan forevever but the most disappointed I have been in this team since 1990. The only year that Denver lost 11 games I can recall since I was a fan.

IIRC that backup you refer to is now a starter in DET. With a couple of picks

Someone that everyone in DEN hated and who lost his way here but regained it with a fresh start.

But oh well.
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rcsodak
10-27-2010, 09:45 PM
For me its not even about hatred. In fact, i get more annoyed by those who apologize for everything he does rather than the man himself.

I will say this, i dont think McD was ever hated from day 1. I think most of those who totally dislike the guy became apparent when the Jay Cutler trade talks came up. Before that i think many and most Bronco fans were excited for a new direction that had become stale under Shanahan.

Most fans were just simply blindsided by the idea that McD would even have the gall to trade Cutler after a promising start in his career. All that followed up by the problems he has had with other coaches and players its hard to side with someone who is that hard to work with.

Even with all that though i was willing to give the man a chance (and i still have too because his job security is not in my hands anyway) and after a 6-0 start last year i thought he was going to be our guy. But, yet again the collapse at the end of the season and the scapegoating of Nolan rubbed me the wrong way with him. And the fact that we have a worse defense this year than last is proof in the pudding that Nolan wasnt the problem last year.

At the end of the day the owner stated publically that he was tired of not making the playoffs, tired of not winning SB's and that the firing of Shanahan was too get back to those days. Never was it stated by the owner that this would be a total ripdown of the progress the team was already making. Sure, new coaches will bring their own schemes and playbooks into the fold. The problem is, a smart coach would have tried to work with what he has first before deciding it wasnt going to work and make his changes then.

That didnt happen with the Broncos. Now, a year or so later we are not seeing the progress that we were promised even though plenty of other teams that have struggled not only recently but for YEARS are now showing more improvement than we are. Last week was just the same thing this team has seen and frankly people are fed up with this type of play from a team once proud to be associated with Denver.

If the hatred has gotten out of control its because for those who criticize McD they are constantly attacked and or the defenders try to point to the previous regime as a legitimate excuse for why McD should be failing here. I have no problem with people challenging why McD is failing in Denver. I really dont. But i do have a problem with people blaming a past coach or making the topic about me instead focusing on the problem at hand.

It shouldnt matter that fans want to bash the players and coach for their lousy play in Denver. The fans that do that should not be the topic and told that they should support the current coach no matter what. Thats silly talk and is totally unacceptable to fans who have invested their time and worth into this team for years. I cant make it anymore clear I WILL NOT ACCEPT MEDIOCRITY OR LOSING. I will continue to root for my team every week like i have done for 28 years, nothing will ever change that. But i will not hold my tongue about how i feel the is performing or the lack of success they are having. If someone wants to be a rah rah person every week fantastic. But dont come on here trying to challenge my fanhood like i dont have a right to say how i feel. That kind of shit is for cowards.

Finally, if McD can change the team around and win than great. Im all for it, i would LOVE for him to prove me wrong. Because at the end of the day i just want to win and get back to where we once were. But until he proves he is the man for the job he will continue to take criticism until he has proven he can be a winner. Whether or not someone hates McD is not even the important part here. What should be important is how the team is performing and is the HC living up to the expectations of those fans. For some he is, for others, not so much.
Were you this boisterous during shanny's 24-24, living example of mediocrity?
Serious question, as I'm curious.

rcsodak
10-27-2010, 09:47 PM
I don't hate him. I like him. I think he's going to be a good coach for us, and I think that he hasn't been great yet but he will. I think a lot of people dislike him because of the personnel moves that were made. I'm a BRONCOS fan though. Players that didn't want to be here, aren't here any longer. I'm fine with that. I think we'll be just fine and I'm very excited for the future of this team.

Notice only those that speak up against him get hi5's? :confused:

rcsodak
10-27-2010, 09:48 PM
Very true. You were a avid supporter for a long time. Shazam (although im sure he still supports the Broncos as well) was pretty displeased with recent events and he was a huge backer as well.

But they're both weak.




















:D

rcsodak
10-27-2010, 09:51 PM
can fans still do that? i thought we had to be reactive at all times.
Only if your 'name' is more than 2 syllables. :D

rcsodak
10-27-2010, 09:56 PM
True dat!!!



I would consider myself as a 'wait and see'. The Raiders game did move me closer to the 'doubting' crowd, but I'm not fully there yet!! I'll let the season play out and I give McD a little leeway with the injuries especially to the defense!! If the BRONCOS play shitty in London like last Sunday, I will get really discouraged!! Can't blame it on jet lag either because the 9ers will have travelled just as far and probably have more jet lag!!

No, 49'ers will have NONE. They'll have been there since monday.

Don't you read up in nodak? :confused:

:D

ps. thx for sending down that snow! *$)*#_(@&*#

rcsodak
10-27-2010, 09:59 PM
Yes, and we're not talking about things being equal, either. McDaniels' present QB
had a 97 QBR in the RZ when he came to town. His RB is better than anybody
Shanny had since Portis . . . or at least Mike Anderson.

But he does have one disadvantage: He shipped off the TE who could make all
the difference in the world in the RZ.

Things that make you go hmmm? :confused:

-----

Who be that, top?

rcsodak
10-27-2010, 10:01 PM
Couldnt of said it better myself. Awesome post.

GMAN needs to learn 'brievity'
:coffee:

rcsodak
10-27-2010, 10:04 PM
I honestly dont see why anyone would like the guy. I can understand people Hoping he is a good HC, or will be one day... But I dont understand how people can say "I like what he has done so far".

Liked him from the onset.

LOVED him after he shipped off Cutler.

Wanted to make a shrine of him after raping Miami for BM.

The rest.....eh....I still have faith.

rcsodak
10-27-2010, 10:06 PM
IDK, I bet he yells at his kids when they spill their milk.
Funny ya'll say that...and then bitch and moan that he didn't last sunday.

:shocked:

rcsodak
10-27-2010, 10:07 PM
Everything the guy does irritates me. He is the guy at the bar that you think is a doosh bag. If that makes sense.
The one that took the hotty home that you had eyes for all night?

Just tell em you'll make 'em the 'queen of your double-wide trailer'.

topscribe
10-27-2010, 10:16 PM
I've been accused of being a McD hater, but I didn't start out disliking him.

In FACT, even though I was a BIG Shanahan guy, when I was called out in a thread on the other board asking about the Shanahan firing, I frankly said:

http://forums.denverbroncos.com/showthread.php?t=131471&highlight=Ravage!!!&page=3 (http://forums.denverbroncos.com/showthread.php?t=131471&highlight=Ravage%21%21%21&page=3)

"I'm shocked but not REALLY shocked.... At the time, when the Chiefs let go of Marty Schottenheimer, I said it was just 'time.' Players throughout their HS and college career stick with one coach for MAYBE five years? They get to the NFL, and after 10, the same speeches, the same routine, the same things said in teh locker room, the same the same the same..... just gets old. Doesnt' really mean its the coach, its just the same. Its like that 7 year itch married couples get. Things get stale, even when they are good....

I think that whomever comes in, will have a VERy solid offense with a stud QB going into only his 4th season, a star WR, a solid #2 and a MAN at LT. The main pieces are there. Now its just a matter of personnel on defense, and that is obviously where Shanahan has completely failed... the defense. Defensive personnel is what lost Shanahan his job.

But... as much as I'm worried about the change, and concerned about the coaching spin that we are likely to go through now... I'm also excited for next year. We have so many pieces in place, and so many young players that got playing time this year...

Before we label EITHER of those coach moves (since last year) a "success"... lets actually see what they do when they put THEIR fingerprints on the team. After all, even bozo (Turner) had a good season his first year in SD. Mora won 11 games his FIRST year in Atlanta. Wannstedt won 11 games his first year in Miami."
----------------------------------------------

After reading the resume on McD (when he was hired) I was excited about the young coach.

But then, the ego starting popping up. YeS I was upset about the Cutler trade. To me, it was absolutely ABSURD to trade away an up-n-coming star for Matt Cassel (please, if you still think he wasn't actively trying to trade for Cassel...). I don't CARE what you think about Cutler's attitude. I don't buy into this toatal "junk" that he "didn't fit the system." Crap. Total bull. It wasn't so much about Cutler himself, but rather the ridiculousness of the move for a first time HC to come in and do. To trade for Matt Cassel? Can you imagine this? Your first move is to sign and pay the MOST for any long-snapper purely because he's from your old team, and the next thing you are doing is to trade away a pro-bowl QB for Matt Cassel ( and try to do it "secretly" as if no media outlets would find out). Welcome to the NFL. His Ego just would NOT let him say the right things. He INTENTIONALLY was doing his best to put himself on a mountain top before he actually CLIMBED up to that chair. As if he deserved any respect without earning it.

It was as if the young kid couldn't step out on his own and establish his own identity. He was TRYING SOOOO HARD to duplicate Belicheck. Right down to wearing the sweatshirt on the field. Also, don't give me this "Bowlen wanted teh NE way." Either. The NFL is a copy-cat league for sure, but many people have won Super Bowls before Belly, and many more will after. The owners aren't lining up and hoping to do things "the NE way." Thats just something the NE newspapers (and probably Bosco) try to sell you.

Then it was spending next years first round picks for CBs, moving up to take blockign TEs. Everyone knew AT THE TIME that this kid had no idea, and that Bowlen had given TOO much power over personnel to a kid that has NEVER done a single thing in the NFL away from Belicheck and Brady.

After making Marshall play gunner on special teams and trying to embarrass him on the practice field, I could SEE that he just did NOT want to get along with players. He WANTED to start fights to PROVE he was the boss. It was as if he was pounding his chest and DARING anyone to not kiss his ring. He FORCED us to watch every single move he made with a microscope because he was making some MAJOR moves for a guy that has NEVER had a single day's worth of being "in charge." He was making catastrophic moves that franchises just don't make...especially when you are JUST getting to a team in your first year as a HC.

Then of course, came the infamous benching of our two most important offensive weapons against a division rival for contention of the playoffs.:tsk:

The best move he made ws getting Nolan. But, Nolan was getting too much credit for the wins. That wouldn't be giving the light to McD, thus......Nolan, TOO, had to go!!

The Purging of talent from this team's offense, to me, was just absurdly ridiculous. It had nothing to do with "headcases" or "team" mentality. It had to do with the fact that these players had a bigger name than McD did. They were the fan favorites of this team. The media kept asking about each one of them, they were the stars, and that wasn't going to do. McD was the star, HE should be the focus. Belicheck got the praise in NE, HE should get the praise and glory in Denver.

And so he is. He certainly has the focus on him now. He felt there was a need to completely wipe and start over, and now he's reaping the rewards of his MASSIVE ego while putting HIS FINGERPRINTS all over this team. There was NO need to wipe. There was NO need to purge. It was PURELY based on HIS needs and NOT the needs of the TEAM <-------

Thats why I don't like him.

I'm not sure how much of this I agree with, Rav, but I saluted you because you
did a good job of writing it up. You should do more of this. http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh256/AZDynamics/Smilies/thdrink.gif

-----

topscribe
10-27-2010, 10:17 PM
Who be that, top?

Scheffler. He presented massive match-up problems in the RZ (and everywhere else).

-----

rcsodak
10-27-2010, 10:17 PM
UH OHHHHHH.....GONNA GET MY USUAL EARFUL ON MULTI-QUOTING!!!!

But if I wasn't the only one posting, this wouldn't happen. So....I'm ok.

:cool:

OrangeHoof
10-27-2010, 10:57 PM
GMAN needs to learn 'brievity'
:coffee:

rcsodak needs to learn spelling (http://www.aolsvc.merriam-webster.aol.com/dictionary/brevity). :tsk:

Lonestar
10-27-2010, 11:04 PM
Notice only those that speak up against him get hi5's? :confused:

It is great I can't see that in mobile mode :barf:
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Lonestar
10-27-2010, 11:12 PM
Liked him from the onset.

LOVED him after he shipped off Cutler.

Wanted to make a shrine of him after raping Miami for BM.

The rest.....eh....I still have faith.

Add to that his brillance in the draft this year turning in an ok first pick into multiple picks that lead to DT and TT along witha a couple of extra picks. A far cry from last year.

IIRC we got 7 picks and all but one is still with the team.

In fact all look like long term keepers including a couple three potential pro bowl players.

A step in the right direction we have needed for a long time. Building the base of the team via the draft.
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topscribe
10-27-2010, 11:16 PM
rcsodak needs to learn spelling (http://www.aolsvc.merriam-webster.aol.com/dictionary/brevity). :tsk:

Grammar cop sighting!! :eek:

-----

sneakers
10-27-2010, 11:17 PM
I never met him.

sneakers
10-27-2010, 11:19 PM
Grammar cop sighting!! :eek:

-----

http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/1536/grammarnazid.jpg

Lonestar
10-27-2010, 11:19 PM
Scheffler. He presented massive match-up problems in the RZ (and everywhere else).

-----

If only he could block his way out of a wet paper sack. If only he did not have jay withdrawls.

If only he did not have the sense of entitlement that the Broncos did not owe him a huge new contract.
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topscribe
10-27-2010, 11:23 PM
If only he could block his way out of a wet paper sack. If only he did not have jay withdrawls.

If only he did not have the sense of entitlement that the Broncos did not owe him a huge new contract.
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Sharpe couldn't block either . . . or often wouldn't. And I believe if they had used
Scheffler more in games he would have recovered from his withdrawals. He warmed
the pine an awful lot while Orton was looking for an open receiver.

I don't know about the contract, but I do know he presented severe match-up
problems to the defense, and that the Broncos do not have a TE who can do that
now . . .

-----

Lonestar
10-27-2010, 11:28 PM
Sharpe couldn't block either . . . or often wouldn't. And I believe if they had used
him more in games he would have recovered from his withdrawals - he warmed
the pine an awful lot while Orton was looking for an open receiver.

I don't know about the contract, but I do know he presented severe match-up
problems to the defense, and that the Broncos do not have a TE who can do that
now . . .

-----

Nor do they seem to need one we have several WR that are match up nightmares.

In this scheme you have to be able and WILLING to block.

As for sharpe when he first played here IIRC he was an H back. He never was a devistating blocker except down field where he could overpower DBs.
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10-27-2010, 11:33 PM
Nor do they seem to need one we have several WR that are match up nightmares.

In this scheme you have to be able and WILLING to block.

As for sharpe when he first played here IIRC he was an H back. He never was a devistating blocker except down field where he could overpower DBs.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

But nothing can replace that big, fast TE who can be a deep threat down the
middle.

You know . . . I've posted about this before . . . I keep wondering how DT would
do in that capacity. He is big and very fast, and the WR position is crammed with
talent, anyway. Personally, I think he would be devastating, and it would get
him onto the field without taking one of the others off.

Just a (recurring) thought . . .

-----

Lonestar
10-27-2010, 11:47 PM
But nothing can replace that big, fast TE who can be a deep threat down the
middle.

You know . . . I've posted about this before . . . I keep wondering how DT would
do in that capacity. He is big and very fast, and the WR position is crammed with
talent, anyway. Personally, I think he would be devastating, and it would get
him onto the field without taking one of the others off.

Just a (recurring) thought . . .

-----

I disagree about TE although I know you used to play there.

Nice to have but if they can't block as worthless as a teat on a boar.

As far as DT rather have as a true deep wr that can jump. There will be few if any cbs that can cover him, if they can coach him up to being a full time starter.

6-3 230+ with great hands was a HJ champ IIRC and is a 4.3 guy. Now it is all between the ears. The rest of the package is already here.
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Lonestar
10-27-2010, 11:49 PM
Let me add that he needs to learn how to run more than the go route that he did in college.

I also like Decker coming down the road. Think he will be the guy that gets a lot of balls thrown his way.
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10-27-2010, 11:54 PM
I disagree about TE although I know you used to play there.

Nice to have but if they can't block as worthless as a teat on a boar.

As far as DT rather have as a true deep wr that can jump. There will be few if any cbs that can cover him, if they can coach him up to being a full time starter.

6-3 230+ with great hands was a HJ champ IIRC and is a 4.3 guy. Now it is all between the ears. The rest of the package is already here.
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Before you assume DT can't block, remember, he came from a running school who
ran so much that he knew only two or three routes coming into the pros. I don't
know what he was doing during those running plays, but if the coach had the
tiniest bit of intelligence, he was having DT do some blocking.

I'm only speculating, but that is logical, isn't it? And in a TE/H-Back capacity, he
would encounter LBs, safeties, and CBs, none who could cope with him. And
he would be a starter - Sharpe was. Just think of having him in addition to the
others on the field . . .

-----

Jake Klug
10-28-2010, 12:10 AM
Seriously. Why?

I'm asking because the negativity toward McD has been present since 18 seconds after he was named coach of the Broncos. Now, I'm not implying that fans should have blind devotion to a coach, but it's very apparent that a sect of Broncos fans has never given McD any respect and repeatedly blame him for anything - from not being to run the football to the reason they're constipated.

So what is it? Is he too young? Too cocky? Too willing to apologize to fans? Too tied to New England? Too quick to realize the fan favorite players he traded wouldn't work in his system? Too short?

Honestly, what is it? This is free-form, unfiltered. Don't say what you think you should, say what you mean.

Prediction: I'll regret starting this thread by 4 p.m. CST.

Why is it so bad if you never gave him a chance? That basically means, you were right the whole time.

Dzone
10-28-2010, 12:59 AM
Look I was excited Mr. B brought in Josh last year. Sure it hurt losing Shanny and I was honestly devastated when we let him go, but in understanding who Josh was and the system he was bringing to Denver, I got excited.

Then the Cutler trade....and Im questioning his player relations ability.

Then switching to a PBS and Im like :confused:

And then signing all these ex-pats???

How about his drafting! hmmmm.

I really could go on and on with Joshs questionable moves. Ive always given him the benifiet of the doubt, but honestly Im really starting to not like him.
I think your perspective is more common among bronco fans than rational fan indicates. He thinks most anti Mcdaniels people were against him from day 1. Thats just not true. I was a Mcdaniels fan for quite some time, but now i realize that he is not prepared for the job. Plus, some people dont find him to be a very likeable personality anymore. His arrogance started to turn people off and also the egregious mistakes have just pilled up. This team appears to be on a downward slide. Yes some of the decline has been caused by bad luck. No doubt about it. Starting the season with Mckinnleys suicide was brutal. And the injuries to doom and ayers were a huge loss. But why do some fans think its somehow sacrilegious for other rational and devoted fans to be completely disappointed in Mcdaniels??????

scott.475
10-28-2010, 01:12 AM
... has been present since 18 seconds after he was named coach of the Broncos.

...from not being to run the football to the reason they're constipated.

Too willing to apologize to fans? ... Too quick to realize the fan favorite players he traded wouldn't work in his system? Too short?


You know, all these snitty little remarks make me believe you really have no interest at all in considering what the other side has to say, but that you think they are nothing more than idiots. And the mods wonder why there are so many personal attacks here! Would have really been so hard to ask the same question without the condescending remarks? Geez.

I will tell you, I had no faith in him when he was announced simply because he came from New England. I knew nothing about him, but I know not one coach from there has had success on his own, not a single one. That is not a good record by any stretch, and was in itself enough for me to be worried. When you compare the utter failure of the "Bellicheck Tree", why should I have faith the yet another one given his shot will be successful. I hated the way he handled the Cutler fiasco, but I am no longer mad he is gone, just hate the way it was handled. I could care less about Marshall being gone, he hated it here anyway. The Cutler and Marshall situations are off the table for me and no longer have any bearing on my attitude toward him.

To bring it down to just a divisional level, this guy cannot even find a way to get us to lead our division, one of the weakest in the league! If we can't find a way to get above .500 in our division, nothing else matters. I started out not liking him, then liking him, then not liking him toward the end of last year, then liking him before this season, and now I have just lost faith in him. He has confidence in himself, I'll give him that, but he sure doesn't know how to coach, it would seem. I wonder if Smith is doing better in Detroit now because he has better coaching?

I also have to say that my wife really tried talking me out of getting the NFL package this year because things are tight, okay? NFL package is the only way I can watch their games, and I have to tell you I am really pissed I spent that money now. I don't think I can do it again next year unless I really, really feel good about them.

Overall, at this point in his life I just don't think he has the ability to bring all the pieces together of an entire football team, and doubt he will with us. He may to go off somewhere else for awhile, get a new perspective on things with the experience he had as a HC, before returning successfully. Or he could end up just being another Mike Martz.

Canmore
10-28-2010, 01:17 AM
I think your perspective is more common among bronco fans than rational fan indicates. He thinks most anti Mcdaniels people were against him from day 1. Thats just not true. I was a Mcdaniels fan for quite some time, but now i realize that he is not prepared for the job. Plus, some people dont find him to be a very likeable personality anymore. His arrogance started to turn people off and also the egregious mistakes have just pilled up. This team appears to be on a downward slide. Yes some of the decline has been caused by bad luck. No doubt about it. Starting the season with Mckinnleys suicide was brutal. And the injuries to doom and ayers were a huge loss. But why do some fans think its somehow sacrilegious for other rational and devoted fans to be completely disappointed in Mcdaniels??????

I thought he was going to take this offense to the next level. In other words we were going to solve our red zone problems. Further, I thought he was going to fix the defense. Instead he jettisoned the offense and tryed to fix the the defense at the same time. The offense was fine. We needed defensive help. Now we have an offense that can't score in the red zone ,an offensive line in shambles and a defense that is no better than the previous one. What is there to like?

Jake Klug
10-28-2010, 01:27 AM
I thought he was going to take this offense to the next level. In other words we were going to solve our red zone problems. Further, I thought he was going to fix the defense. Instead he jettisoned the offense and tryed to fix the the defense at the same time. The offense was fine. We needed defensive help. Now we have an offense that can't score in the red zone ,an offensive line in shambles and a defense that is no better than the previous one. What is there to like?

Honestly, these seem like Joe Ellis complaints as much as they are Josh McDaniels complaints.

Canmore
10-28-2010, 01:38 AM
Honestly, these seem like Joe Ellis complaints as much as they are Josh McDaniels complaints.

??? I didn't know Joe Ellis was responsible for the mess the Broncos are in right now.

Jake Klug
10-28-2010, 01:46 AM
??? I didn't know Joe Ellis was responsible for the mess the Broncos are right now.

Are you kidding? Yeah, Joe Ellis spearheaded the hire and admitted to being enamored with what was being done in New England. Joe Ellis is the one who staged the coup d'etat with Shanahan. So, McDaniels might have actually been brought here with the encouragement to get rid of all things Shanahan. Of course, it could also be a decision that took place at Josh's level.

Also, Joe Ellis is the reason why the stadium has become a sterile, over-gentrified, lifeless stadium compared to the last one.

Basically, anything that Joe Ellis becomes involved with, the fans lose. Youve heard of the Midas Touch, right? Well, Joe Ellis has the opposite of that...unless your Pat Bowlen.

Bosco
10-28-2010, 01:59 AM
Are you kidding? Yeah, Joe Ellis spearheaded the hire and admitted to being enamored with what was being done in New England. Joe Ellis is the one who staged the coup d'etat with Shanahan. So, McDaniels might have actually been brought here with the encouragement to get rid of all things Shanahan. Of course, it could also be a decision that took place at Josh's level.

Also, Joe Ellis is the reason why the stadium has become a sterile, over-gentrified, lifeless stadium compared to the last one.

Basically, anything that Joe Ellis becomes involved with, the fans lose. Youve heard of the Midas Touch, right? Well, Joe Ellis has the opposite of that...unless your Pat Bowlen.

That's only half true.

Yes, Ellis was involved in the search to replace Shanahan, but so were Bowlen and Xanders. All three of them interviewed and subsequently hired Josh McDaniels.

Jake Klug
10-28-2010, 02:03 AM
That's only half true.

Yes, Ellis was involved in the search to replace Shanahan, but so were Bowlen and Xanders. All three of them interviewed and subsequently hired Josh McDaniels.

Actually, Goodman, before he was screwed over, attended one of the early meetings. But it was Joe Ellis that went back for the second interview and came back raving about some plan of his. Also, since the hire, I think Ellis is on record admitting that he is/was enamored with the Patriots.

Bosco
10-28-2010, 02:05 AM
Actually, Goodman, before he was screwed over, attended one of the early meetings. But it was Joe Ellis that went back for the second interview and came back raving about some plan of his. Also, since the hire, I think Ellis is on record admitting that he is/was enamored with the Patriots.

Again, Ellis was not the only one doing any interviewing. I don't remember Goodman being there, but it's possible.

Jake Klug
10-28-2010, 02:08 AM
Again, Ellis was not the only one doing any interviewing. I don't remember Goodman being there, but it's possible.

Yeah, I read what you said before, but it doesnt prevale on the issue of Joe Ellis spearheading the hiring process. Since youre into the loop of referring back to what you said, Ill do the same. The second interview was conducted by Ellis.

Canmore
10-28-2010, 02:18 AM
Yeah, I read what you said before, but it doesnt prevale on the issue of Joe Ellis spearheading the hiring process. Since youre into the loop of referring back to what you said, Ill do the same. The second interview was conducted by Ellis.

Even if this is all correct, how does that make my view of Josh McDaniels, Joe Ellis complaints.

Jake Klug
10-28-2010, 02:22 AM
Even if this is all correct, how does that make my view of Josh McDaniels, Joe Ellis complaints.

If Joe Ellis was enamored with the Patriots and brought McDaniels here to make the Broncos like New England, theres a lot of decision making by the coach that ties back to Joe Ellis' fixation with New England either by being allowed to make changes or specifically encouraged to do so. Your comments about jettisoning the old offense and not merely fixing the defense tie into this.

Have you ever heard of that fable about the turtle and the scorpion trying to cross the pond? Its kind of like that. Do you blame the turtle, or do you blame the scorpion?

Bosco
10-28-2010, 02:24 AM
If Joe Ellis was enamored with the Patriots and brought McDaniels here to make the Broncos like New England, theres a lot of decision making by the coach that ties back to Joe Ellis' fixation with New England. Youre comments about jettisoning the old offense and not merely fixing the defense tie into this.

Why is that Joe Ellis' fault? The Patriots model for success is well...successful. If Josh fails to implement that model, it's on him and him alone.

Canmore
10-28-2010, 02:27 AM
If Joe Ellis was enamored with the Patriots and brought McDaniels here to make the Broncos like New England, theres a lot of decision making by the coach that ties back to Joe Ellis' fixation with New England. Youre comments about jettisoning the old offense and not merely fixing the defense tie into this.

The big question is IF, and even if he was/is, he didn't get rid of Shanahans offense, McDaniels did.

Jake Klug
10-28-2010, 02:36 AM
The big question is IF, and even if he was/is, he didn't get rid of Shanahans offense, McDaniels did.

No, its not a big if. Joe Ellis definitely was enamored with New England and has admitted to such. But the question is, what specifically about New England was Joe Ellis enamored with. New England over the last 10 years has had a rep for not overpaying for players. Joe Ellis is probably more interested in that end of it and maybe not the offense itself. I think Joe Ellis' end of it was fixating on the Patriots as a business and not a football team. Thats a huge problem with Joe Ellis. Thats how you end up going from the homefield advantage at the last stadium to the new one thats sterile and over-gentrified.

Joe is good for Pats business but not Broncos football where the fans are concerned. Joes existence in Dove Valley might actually be a sign of where Pat is with money as well. Fans like to give Pat the benefit of the doubt in a lot of instances but times change and Pat may not be as focused on winning as days gone by relative to the fact that he relies (or even overrelies) on the Broncos as his primary income.

Bosco
10-28-2010, 02:42 AM
No, its not a big if. Joe Ellis definitely was enamored with New England and has admitted to such. But the question is, what specifically about New England was Joe Ellis enamored with. New England over the last 10 years has had a rep for not overpaying for players. Joe Ellis is probably more interested in that end of it and maybe not the offense itself. I think Joe Ellis' end of it was fixating on the Patriots as a business and not a football team. Thats a huge problem with Joe Ellis. Thats how you end up going from the homefield advantage at the last stadium to the new one thats sterile and over-gentrified.

Joe is good for Pats business but not Broncos football where the fans are concerned. Joes existence in Dove Valley might actually be a sign of where Pat is with money as well. Fans like to give Pat the benefit of the doubt in a lot of instances but times change and Pat may not be as focused on winning as days gone by relative to the fact that he relies (or even overrelies) on the Broncos as his primary income.

Did Joe Ellis bang your girlfriend or something? Just curious.

Canmore
10-28-2010, 02:42 AM
No, its not a big if. Joe Ellis definitely was enamored with New England and has admitted to such. But the question is, what specifically about New England was Joe Ellis enamored with. New England over the last 10 years has had a rep for not overpaying for players. Joe Ellis is probably more interested in that end of it and maybe not the offense itself.

I would like to believe that is not true, but for the sake of argument why did that result in the gutting of a top rated offense down to it's sixth running back when IIRC none of those players jettisoned were unrestricted free agents. Money was not an issue.

Bosco
10-28-2010, 02:45 AM
I would like to believe that is not true, but for the sake of argument why did that result in the gutting of a top rated offense down to it's sixth running back when IIRC none of those players jettisoned were unrestricted free agents. Money was not an issue.

Because it's delusional at best. Josh changed the offense because that's what he has his own style of offense. It wasn't motivated by anything other than getting the guy they felt gave them the best chance to win going forward.

Canmore
10-28-2010, 02:50 AM
Because it's delusional at best. Josh changed the offense because that's what he has his own style of offense. It wasn't motivated by anything other than getting the guy they felt gave them the best chance to win going forward.

I didn't realize I was delusional, and I don't see the connection, other than Josh wanted his own players and that appears to have backfired.

Jake Klug
10-28-2010, 02:51 AM
I would like to believe that is not true, but for the sake of argument why did that result in the gutting of a top rated offense down to it's sixth running back when IIRC none of those players jettisoned were unrestricted free agents. Money was not an issue.

This goes back to what I said. Its hard to know if Josh was specifically encouraged to change the offense by the front office or whether they just let it happen and so the old offense was a sacrifice that was made to become more like New England, whether its from a business management perspective or from an operational level perspective.

Bosco
10-28-2010, 02:52 AM
I didn't realize I was delusional, and I don't see the connection, other than Josh wanted his own players and that appears to have backfired.

I didn't mean you were delusional.

Canmore
10-28-2010, 02:54 AM
I didn't mean you were delusional.

My mistake.

Lancane
10-28-2010, 03:57 AM
I don't hate him, in fact I was one of the biggest supporters when the majority wanted Steve Spagnuolo as head coach. I got so much crap for it as well; "The Belichick coaching tree is shit", "He's too damn young, and he's not experienced enough for what we need", "We need a defense minded coach" and on and on.

So what happened? Simple, he proved every argument that the majority of the fanbase had against him by week 10 of last season...and it started with his lies about the whole Cutler situation, and before someone argues that he did not lie, go back and read every article and you'll see the inconsistencies of his story and that of the organizations as well. He even admitted that he withheld information, two different organizations had leaked that he initiated trade talks, one with Cleveland for Quinn and the other with New England for Cassell. He claimed that it was false and fans backed him, like the whole NFL was against poor McDaniels suddenly?

Think hard and some will see the truth and figure out for themselves that this was a carefully planned and well executed coup d'état by Joe Ellis, Brian Xanders and Josh McDaniels. Bowlen had told the media that Cutler was the franchise quarterback and the focal point for the future of this team; suddenly Bates is released, the offensive coordinator that Cutler wanted to remain above all others, replaced with McCoy who had no experience and came from an offensive unit that was suspect...so Cutler was a tad upset, and understandably. Then Goodman was suddenly fired, the man who had brought in more drafted pro-bowlers then any other General Manager or Scouting Department Manager had in all of Shanahan's long tenure: including Darrent Williams, Brandon Marshall, Jay Cutler, Elvis Dumvervil, Eddie Royal, Ryan Harris and Ryan Clady, only to be replaced by Brian Xanders who's experience was more suspect then McCoy was being hired as the offensive coordinator! Why? Because Goodman and Bates would have stopped the shopping of Cutler, they would have been a voice into the ears of Bowlen and McDaniels didn't need opposition, he needed 'yes men' like Ellis who bought into the New England Philosophy and Xanders who would bend over and be his prison bitch quite literally.

So Cutler is gone, alright...maybe it will get better, Orton will be a decent journeyman while they bring along a rookie like Mark Sanchez, and McDaniels overlooked the future and had a very questionable draft, while I support Moreno and all, the picks and his trades were almost laughable and especially after the circus he had created with Cutler. Alright, let's give McDaniels the benefit of the doubt for now...we all bought into his promises of a better prepared, smarter and tougher football team, he hired a terrific staff and suddenly were 6-0 thanks to a tougher, smarter and better prepared defense, but we had to question how bad the offense was...especially when he was handed a pretty solid offensive unit. And it all fell apart, still a large number of fans or the majority wanted to give him a chance still.

Marshall was without a doubt our best offensive weapon, our gamebreaker that could make things happen, even with a journeyman quarterback like Orton Marshall had a Pro-Bowl season. Moreno with our Zone Blocking Scheme had nearly rushed for a 1,000 yards...we still had the core of our offensive line intact, there was room for promise. And suddenly he destroys it, Bowlen wanted to keep Marshall...and just like Cutler, the trio of idiots: Ellis, McDaniels and Xanders had made sure he was gone, they did not even try to work anything out. And don't give me that bullshit about the collective bargaining agreement and so on, several teams eventually worked out new contracts with players, such as the Patriots with Brady, the Jets with Revis and so on... Simple fact is that McDaniels wanted him gone, and it sickened me that so many fans backed McDaniels and what he said, especially when he's admitted to lying before and they verbally trashed Marshall and acted childish about it as well.

I wanted McDaniels to be the head coach because I thought he would be able to succeed with the core we had in place, especially offensively. Instead he destroyed this team, their identity as an offensive powerhouse and more. Orton is doing well because he is having to carry this team, Lloyd is a self admitted possession receiver, Gaffney is much the same, Royal and Moreno are the best at gaining yards after the catch when the ball is tossed to them, while Thomas and Decker still have much to prove...we are the worst team in the league when it comes to yards after the catch and Orton is having to try and do it all himself. Moreno can barely run the ball behind the man on man line because the holes close up too quickly and so we can't do shit and seven to eight times out of ten he is stuffed because the line can not contain the holes...the power blocking scheme unlike the zone usually gives one gap holes shutting down all others, where the zone opens more gaps that can be penetrated and so Moreno is out of his element.

Nolan had our defense at the best it's been in years, suddenly he's gone because he can not get along with McDaniels and his irrational ego, Martindale is given the job and the defense with more big names is crap. The offense while able to move the ball somewhat is crap. He's totally destroyed this team and any identity that we had for his own ego in a coup d'état that has literally set this organization years back from where it was.

So why do I dislike him? He's a blatant liar and egotistical to a fault, he cares only that he's in the spotlight no matter the cost to the team and it has backfired, and he has made no effort to right his wrongs and he continues to make them while making this once great organization into a shell of it's former self, all in the name of his pride and for self benefit.

Jake Klug
10-28-2010, 04:14 AM
I don't hate him, in fact I was one of the biggest supporters when the majority wanted Steve Spagnuolo as head coach. I got so much crap for it as well; "The Belichick coaching tree is shit", "He's too damn young, and he's not experienced enough for what we need", "We need a defense minded coach" and on and on.

So what happened? Simple, he proved every argument that the majority of the fanbase had against him by week 10 of last season...and it started with his lies about the whole Cutler situation, and before someone argues that he did not lie, go back and read every article and you'll see the inconsistencies of his story and that of the organizations as well. He even admitted that he withheld information, two different organizations had leaked that he initiated trade talks, one with Cleveland for Quinn and the other with New England for Cassell. He claimed that it was false and fans backed him, like the whole NFL was against poor McDaniels suddenly?

Think hard and some will see the truth and figure out for themselves that this was a carefully planned and well executed coup d'état by Joe Ellis, Brian Xanders and Josh McDaniels. Bowlen had told the media that Cutler was the franchise quarterback and the focal point for the future of this team; suddenly Bates is released, the offensive coordinator that Cutler wanted to remain above all others, replaced with McCoy who had no experience and came from an offensive unit that was suspect...so Cutler was a tad upset, and understandably. Then Goodman was suddenly fired, the man who had brought in more drafted pro-bowlers then any other General Manager or Scouting Department Manager had in all of Shanahan's long tenure: including Darrent Williams, Brandon Marshall, Jay Cutler, Elvis Dumvervil, Eddie Royal, Ryan Harris and Ryan Clady, only to be replaced by Brian Xanders who's experience was more suspect then McCoy was being hired as the offensive coordinator! Why? Because Goodman and Bates would have stopped the shopping of Cutler, they would have been a voice into the ears of Bowlen and McDaniels didn't need opposition, he needed 'yes men' like Ellis who bought into the New England Philosophy and Xanders who would bend over and be his prison bitch quite literally.

So Cutler is gone, alright...maybe it will get better, Orton will be a decent journeyman while they bring along a rookie like Mark Sanchez, and McDaniels overlooked the future and had a very questionable draft, while I support Moreno and all, the picks and his trades were almost laughable and especially after the circus he had created with Cutler. Alright, let's give McDaniels the benefit of the doubt for now...we all bought into his promises of a better prepared, smarter and tougher football team, he hired a terrific staff and suddenly were 6-0 thanks to a tougher, smarter and better prepared defense, but we had to question how bad the offense was...especially when he was handed a pretty solid offensive unit. And it all fell apart, still a large number of fans or the majority wanted to give him a chance still.

Marshall was without a doubt our best offensive weapon, our gamebreaker that could make things happen, even with a journeyman quarterback like Orton Marshall had a Pro-Bowl season. Moreno with our Zone Blocking Scheme had nearly rushed for a 1,000 yards...we still had the core of our offensive line intact, there was room for promise. And suddenly he destroys it, Bowlen wanted to keep Marshall...and just like Cutler, the trio of idiots: Ellis, McDaniels and Xanders had made sure he was gone, they did not even try to work anything out. And don't give me that bullshit about the collective bargaining agreement and so on, several teams eventually worked out new contracts with players, such as the Patriots with Brady, the Jets with Revis and so on... Simple fact is that McDaniels wanted him gone, and it sickened me that so many fans backed McDaniels and what he said, especially when he's admitted to lying before and they verbally trashed Marshall and acted childish about it as well.

I wanted McDaniels to be the head coach because I thought he would be able to succeed with the core we had in place, especially offensively. Instead he destroyed this team, their identity as an offensive powerhouse and more. Orton is doing well because he is having to carry this team, Lloyd is a self admitted possession receiver, Gaffney is much the same, Royal and Moreno are the best at gaining yards after the catch when the ball is tossed to them, while Thomas and Decker still have much to prove...we are the worst team in the league when it comes to yards after the catch and Orton is having to try and do it all himself. Moreno can barely run the ball behind the man on man line because the holes close up too quickly and so we can't do shit and seven to eight times out of ten he is stuffed because the line can not contain the holes...the power blocking scheme unlike the zone usually gives one gap holes shutting down all others, where the zone opens more gaps that can be penetrated and so Moreno is out of his element.

Nolan had our defense at the best it's been in years, suddenly he's gone because he can not get along with McDaniels and his irrational ego, Martindale is given the job and the defense with more big names is crap. The offense while able to move the ball somewhat is crap. He's totally destroyed this team and any identity that we had for his own ego in a coup d'état that has literally set this organization years back from where it was.

So why do I dislike him? He's a blatant liar and egotistical to a fault, he cares only that he's in the spotlight no matter the cost to the team and it has backfired, and he has made no effort to right his wrongs and he continues to make them while making this once great organization into a shell of it's former self, all in the name of his pride and for self benefit.

Good post. You put a lot into that.

So, what would you like to see happen? Your bitterness doesnt seem to be tolerant of letting Josh keep his job. In fact, basically what youve done is identified cancer within organization. Where should the Broncos (I would say front office but thats a big part of the problem) go from here?

Canmore
10-28-2010, 04:16 AM
I certainly couldn't have said what I feel so eloquently. Well done.

Jake Klug
10-28-2010, 04:18 AM
BTW, has anyone noticed that the fanbase seems to be more united now after 1.5 years of division and rancor?

Canmore
10-28-2010, 04:24 AM
I would love to know what Pat Bowlen really thinks.

Lancane
10-28-2010, 04:36 AM
Good post. You put a lot into that.

So, what would you like to see happen? Your bitterness doesnt seem to be tolerant of letting Josh keep his job. In fact, basically what youve done is identified cancer within organization. Where should the Broncos (I would say front office but thats a big part of the problem) go from here?

In truth I am bitter, I'm bitter that I supported this coach so headily to only watch him dismantle a once great organization and team, setting it back further then where it needed to be.

So what would I like to see happen? I guess that first and foremost that I would like to see someone else named Head of Football Operations, Joe Ellis has proven in the time he has held the position that he does not know his job that well. John Elway has been in talks to be a part owner in a new franchise in L.A., maybe Bowlen should sell him part of the team and name him Head of Football Operations, it would help give faith to the majority of the fans. Also, I would like to see Xanders out on his ass, obviously he's not that good of a G.M., a General Manager is above a head coach and it's the opposite here...we need someone who will say, we're drafting this kid or signing this guy, coaching is your job...so just do it. Bowlen also has to figure out if McDaniels really deserves two more years as the head coach, especially with Martindale as the defensive coordinator, because if McDaniels is going to go Shanahan and start playing musical chairs with defensive coaches, then if he's not so comfortable keeping Josh, then he should just fire the majority of the staff and start over. If he truly believes in McDaniels, then force him to be a coach and just that, no blaming anyone else and no more excuses overall...no more circus off-seasons, no more it's my way or the highway...just do your F'n job and do it right.

Canmore
10-28-2010, 04:43 AM
In truth I am bitter, I'm bitter that I supported this coach so headily to only watch him dismantle a once great organization and team, setting it back further then where it needed to be.

So what would I like to see happen? I guess that first and foremost that I would like to see someone else named Head of Football Operations, Joe Ellis has proven in the time he has held the position that he does not know his job that well. John Elway has been in talks to be a part owner in a new franchise in L.A., maybe Bowlen should sell him part of the team and name him Head of Football Operations, it would help give faith to the majority of the fans. Also, I would like to see Xanders out on his ass, obviously he's not that good of a G.M., a General Manager is above a head coach and it's the opposite here...we need someone who will say, we're drafting this kid or signing this guy, coaching is your job...so just do it. Bowlen also has to figure out if McDaniels really deserves two more years as the head coach, especially with Martindale as the defensive coordinator, because if McDaniels is going to go Shanahan and start playing musical chairs with defensive coaches, then if he's not so comfortable keeping Josh, then he should just fire the majority of the staff and start over. If he truly believes in McDaniels, then force him to be a coach and just that, no blaming anyone else and no more excuses overall...no more circus off-seasons, no more it's my way or the highway...just do your F'n job and do it right.

I'm bitter too! I think the whole upper management, Ellis, Xanders and especially McDaniels have out lived there usefullness. If we don't beat the 49's I am in favor of canning McD midseason, although I know that that is not going to happen IMO.

Jake Klug
10-28-2010, 04:49 AM
In truth I am bitter, I'm bitter that I supported this coach so headily to only watch him dismantle a once great organization and team, setting it back further then where it needed to be.

So what would I like to see happen? I guess that first and foremost that I would like to see someone else named Head of Football Operations, Joe Ellis has proven in the time he has held the position that he does not know his job that well. John Elway has been in talks to be a part owner in a new franchise in L.A., maybe Bowlen should sell him part of the team and name him Head of Football Operations, it would help give faith to the majority of the fans. Also, I would like to see Xanders out on his ass, obviously he's not that good of a G.M., a General Manager is above a head coach and it's the opposite here...we need someone who will say, we're drafting this kid or signing this guy, coaching is your job...so just do it. Bowlen also has to figure out if McDaniels really deserves two more years as the head coach, especially with Martindale as the defensive coordinator, because if McDaniels is going to go Shanahan and start playing musical chairs with defensive coaches, then if he's not so comfortable keeping Josh, then he should just fire the majority of the staff and start over. If he truly believes in McDaniels, then force him to be a coach and just that, no blaming anyone else and no more excuses overall...no more circus off-seasons, no more it's my way or the highway...just do your F'n job and do it right.

Not that you asked but I think Bowlen has allowed his franchise to be considerably devalued. He needs to make good with the fanbase. The safest way to do that is to go back to momma, whether thats ZBS or WCO. When you look at how the franchise has been devalued, buying out Kubiak probably starts to seem like small potatoes. There are other coaches as well.

But at the top of my list would be giving Ellis the axe. To me, Xanders is kind of a non-entity. He's toothless in that he's there to be pushed around, as you said.

Canmore
10-28-2010, 04:54 AM
Not that you asked but I think Bowlen has allowed his franchise to be considerably devalued. He needs to make good with the fanbase. The safest way to do that is to go back to momma, whether thats ZBS or WCO. When you look at how the franchise has been devalued, buying out Kubiak probably starts to seem like small potatoes. There are other coaches as well.

But at the top of my list would be giving Ellis the axe. To me, Xanders is kind of a non-entity. He's toothless in that he's there to be pushed around, as you said.

All of what you say rings true but how long do you wait? The bye week seems to me to be the perfect time to shake things up in Dove Valley.

MasterShake
10-28-2010, 07:26 AM
I don't hate McDaniels, I'm just disappointed. I think most Broncos fans want him to succeed, but his window of opportunity has shrunk to these last weeks of the season for me. At the very least, I want to see us get to .500 but if he is the coach he needs to be we could be 9-7 or better. If the latter happens, I would be thrilled. I can't go through another "rebuilding" year, and personally I want to see what he can do with Tebow. Ideally, if McDaniels did stink it up the rest of the season, I'd like a new coach and have him be a QB coach or OC. You can tell the guy knows a lot about the game, but he has tons to learn about the intangibles at the same time. That would never happen, but thats what I'd like to see. I do think he has something to offer.

Right now, I mostly just want to get a few wins in a row (SF and KC wins would be HUGE for me) and move forward. Last week needs to be put far behind me. :lol:

Northman
10-28-2010, 09:07 AM
Were you this boisterous during shanny's 24-24, living example of mediocrity?
Serious question, as I'm curious.

You bet your ass.

broncofaninfla
10-28-2010, 09:20 AM
I don't hate Mcd, in fact I like his work ethis and passion for the game. What I don't like is some of his scheme choices, some of his personel decisions, his love for former Patriot rejects, his inability to use the talent on the roster within his schemes and his arrogance that he has yet to back up. In the end it's about results and I don't like a lot of what I've seen to date nor the direction we are headed. He seems to be learning the trade at the expense of the organiztion I love dearly. I also don't like that he seems clueless in how to field an effective running game, that's a biggie with me.

Winning changes everything, I'd love for him to turn this thing around but the way I see it that would require him making some changes in his approach and phylosphy and he seems to bull headed to do so. Good coaches can tailor their schems around the individual and unique talent on their roster. Doesn't look like he can do that. I'm ready for this team to win and I hope we do so with him. I don't want to live through yet another rebuilding season or two.

Northman
10-28-2010, 09:25 AM
his love for former Patriot rejects, his inability to use the talent on the roster within his schemes and his arrogance that he has yet to back up.

Yea, his fascination with former NE players reminds me a lot of Steve Spurrier a few years ago trying to get all of his college players from back in the day. What a trainwreck that was.

Ravage!!!
10-28-2010, 10:06 AM
Yea, his fascination with former NE players reminds me a lot of Steve Spurrier a few years ago trying to get all of his college players from back in the day. What a trainwreck that was.

ITs like he wants to surround himself with people, he feels, already "like" him. Doesn't have to earn their friendship or respect, only has to put them in the spot and everything will meld together.

Honestly. With as much ego and arrogance this kid extrudes, I truly believe that he's not confident. I said that when he came in and just started removing/having problems with the talent already on the team.

Getting rid of the Goodmans, and eventually unable to get along with Nolan proved that he did NOT want anyone that might question him. Its as if there is anyone that might doubt him, OR, is still left on the team that could compare his coaching with former coaches.... he didnt' want them around.

I truly believe this.

Ravage!!!
10-28-2010, 10:09 AM
anyone else have the urge to sing the theme song from "Cheers"?

topscribe
10-28-2010, 11:13 AM
I don't hate him, in fact I was one of the biggest supporters when the majority wanted Steve Spagnuolo as head coach. I got so much crap for it as well; "The Belichick coaching tree is shit", "He's too damn young, and he's not experienced enough for what we need", "We need a defense minded coach" and on and on.

So what happened? Simple, he proved every argument that the majority of the fanbase had against him by week 10 of last season...and it started with his lies about the whole Cutler situation, and before someone argues that he did not lie, go back and read every article and you'll see the inconsistencies of his story and that of the organizations as well. He even admitted that he withheld information, two different organizations had leaked that he initiated trade talks, one with Cleveland for Quinn and the other with New England for Cassell. He claimed that it was false and fans backed him, like the whole NFL was against poor McDaniels suddenly?

Think hard and some will see the truth and figure out for themselves that this was a carefully planned and well executed coup d'état by Joe Ellis, Brian Xanders and Josh McDaniels. Bowlen had told the media that Cutler was the franchise quarterback and the focal point for the future of this team; suddenly Bates is released, the offensive coordinator that Cutler wanted to remain above all others, replaced with McCoy who had no experience and came from an offensive unit that was suspect...so Cutler was a tad upset, and understandably. Then Goodman was suddenly fired, the man who had brought in more drafted pro-bowlers then any other General Manager or Scouting Department Manager had in all of Shanahan's long tenure: including Darrent Williams, Brandon Marshall, Jay Cutler, Elvis Dumvervil, Eddie Royal, Ryan Harris and Ryan Clady, only to be replaced by Brian Xanders who's experience was more suspect then McCoy was being hired as the offensive coordinator! Why? Because Goodman and Bates would have stopped the shopping of Cutler, they would have been a voice into the ears of Bowlen and McDaniels didn't need opposition, he needed 'yes men' like Ellis who bought into the New England Philosophy and Xanders who would bend over and be his prison bitch quite literally.

So Cutler is gone, alright...maybe it will get better, Orton will be a decent journeyman while they bring along a rookie like Mark Sanchez, and McDaniels overlooked the future and had a very questionable draft, while I support Moreno and all, the picks and his trades were almost laughable and especially after the circus he had created with Cutler. Alright, let's give McDaniels the benefit of the doubt for now...we all bought into his promises of a better prepared, smarter and tougher football team, he hired a terrific staff and suddenly were 6-0 thanks to a tougher, smarter and better prepared defense, but we had to question how bad the offense was...especially when he was handed a pretty solid offensive unit. And it all fell apart, still a large number of fans or the majority wanted to give him a chance still.

Marshall was without a doubt our best offensive weapon, our gamebreaker that could make things happen, even with a journeyman quarterback like Orton Marshall had a Pro-Bowl season. Moreno with our Zone Blocking Scheme had nearly rushed for a 1,000 yards...we still had the core of our offensive line intact, there was room for promise. And suddenly he destroys it, Bowlen wanted to keep Marshall...and just like Cutler, the trio of idiots: Ellis, McDaniels and Xanders had made sure he was gone, they did not even try to work anything out. And don't give me that bullshit about the collective bargaining agreement and so on, several teams eventually worked out new contracts with players, such as the Patriots with Brady, the Jets with Revis and so on... Simple fact is that McDaniels wanted him gone, and it sickened me that so many fans backed McDaniels and what he said, especially when he's admitted to lying before and they verbally trashed Marshall and acted childish about it as well.

I wanted McDaniels to be the head coach because I thought he would be able to succeed with the core we had in place, especially offensively. Instead he destroyed this team, their identity as an offensive powerhouse and more. Orton is doing well because he is having to carry this team, Lloyd is a self admitted possession receiver, Gaffney is much the same, Royal and Moreno are the best at gaining yards after the catch when the ball is tossed to them, while Thomas and Decker still have much to prove...we are the worst team in the league when it comes to yards after the catch and Orton is having to try and do it all himself. Moreno can barely run the ball behind the man on man line because the holes close up too quickly and so we can't do shit and seven to eight times out of ten he is stuffed because the line can not contain the holes...the power blocking scheme unlike the zone usually gives one gap holes shutting down all others, where the zone opens more gaps that can be penetrated and so Moreno is out of his element.

Nolan had our defense at the best it's been in years, suddenly he's gone because he can not get along with McDaniels and his irrational ego, Martindale is given the job and the defense with more big names is crap. The offense while able to move the ball somewhat is crap. He's totally destroyed this team and any identity that we had for his own ego in a coup d'état that has literally set this organization years back from where it was.

So why do I dislike him? He's a blatant liar and egotistical to a fault, he cares only that he's in the spotlight no matter the cost to the team and it has backfired, and he has made no effort to right his wrongs and he continues to make them while making this once great organization into a shell of it's former self, all in the name of his pride and for self benefit.

Cane, I saluted this post because of all you put into it, and I agree with some
of it. Just a couple minor items: I don't believe Orton is simply a "journeyman"
QB. I believe he has proven himself a legitimate offensive and deep threat, and
all he needs is a little help and to keep from getting killed - which you did touch
upon.

Nonetheless, the potentially better QB has been shipped off and is presently
being destroyed as a QB in Chicago (shades of Steve Tensi - even the Broncos'
line is better than Chicago's).

Lloyd, also, has shown himself a legitimate deep threat. I don't know where he
stands right now, but he was leading the league in YPC, and has proven able
to beat double coverage deep.

The WR corps is not the problem: They are uber talented and deep (although
they played like they were wearing ankle weights in the last game).

The O-line has been porous, but it now is showing signs of forming and gelling.
It is very young, and it takes a while - and its restructuring has been inevitable
because of the injuries and the fact that two of the former starters had become
ineffective.

The offense is growing, IMO, and will ultimately be fine - assuming Orton
survives.

The defense is what they have failed to improve. Of course, part of that is
because of injuries, rendering the LB corps extremely thin, especially on the
outside. Having to put Haggan out there to get repeatedly pancaked is an
example of that. (And I understand Ayers is staying home - the wrong weekend
for that. Frank Gore is going to run out onto the field with the front of his jersey
all wet from drooling.)

But really, one linebacker: That is all they needed - well, that and one D-lineman.
And they ignored that in lieu of a project QB who may or may not make it in the
NFL. McDaniels said he was doing what he was doing to "give the team the
best chance to win." Well, a number one draft choice carrying a clipboard is
hardly giving them that chance, with the likes of McClain and Maualuga playing
elsewhere.

You know, Pat Bowlen is about my age. Through all my years of experience, I
would know better than to hire people the ages and experience levels of
McDaniels and Xanders to run my company. With the likes of Gruden, Cowher,
et al. running around out there . . . why? You mentioned pride and ego: Well,
humility most often comes with age and experience.

So does knowing what the hell you're doing.

I don't know . . . the hiring of McDaniels, the jettisoning of Cutler, the circus
around Marshall, Scheffler, and Hillis, among other developments, has been a
nightmare for me. And I have yet to awaken from it . . .

-----

G_Money
10-28-2010, 11:14 AM
It's just frustrating. When we selected him as a coach one of my positives was his apparent adaptability as a coordinator.


The thing that impresses me about McDaniels is versatility.

2006, 2007 and 2008 were three TOTALLY different years for the Patriots offense. 2006 had ridiculously terrible receivers, 2007 was a juggernaut at WR and offense in general, 2008 had to ride on the shoulders of the backup from Game 1 all the way through the end.

He excelled with all 3 versions of the offense. The man is versatile, and not locked into one way of doing things. He put together great offenses out of backups or starters, blue-chippers or rejects.

Versatility's under-rated in this league. Lots of coaches can put together great gameplans with the perfect weapons. Far fewer can take what they are given - whatever its quality - and make it deliver.


I thought that because he could coordinate 3 different versions of the Pats offense that he could meld our good parts into a hybrid version that would excel.

Instead he leveled the whole thing, and we're not better than we were.

With more time, maybe we will be. He's got to win this week and win a lot in the "easy" part of the schedule in the 2nd half to get that time.

Bowlen is as proud as McDaniels is arrogant. Do not get a proud man laughed at, especially if he's your boss.

~G

OrangeHoof
10-28-2010, 11:24 AM
McDaniels reminds me of the child who could ride a bicycle as long as Daddy (Belichick) had the training wheels on and was standing behind him. He was so sure of his abilities until one day the training wheels were taken off and he was expected to ride the bike on his own and it became one crash after another.

Lonestar
10-28-2010, 11:30 AM
You know, all these snitty little remarks make me believe you really have no interest at all in considering what the other side has to say, but that you think they are nothing more than idiots. .

I can truthfully say that it could be said the same thing about many of the anti Josh posters.

I find your comment about being from NE that caused you to dislike the hiring. If for no other reason that the Belicheck tree was a failure.

IMHO who cares where a coach comes from it is successful and there is no doubt in anyones mind that NE is a premier program since the new owner took over.

Or at least should not be a debate.
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Lonestar
10-28-2010, 11:40 AM
I thought he was going to take this offense to the next level. In other words we were going to solve our red zone problems. Further, I thought he was going to fix the defense. Instead he jettisoned the offense and tryed to fix the the defense at the same time. The offense was fine. We needed defensive help. Now we have an offense that can't score in the red zone ,an offensive line in shambles and a defense that is no better than the previous one. What is there to like?

If the offense was fine then why did Pat hire an OC that did not know mikeys playbook from adam

Think about that does anyone seriously think he was going learn that playbook instead of installing his own.

Pat wanted the NE model or would have brought in Spagnola to rework the defense while allowing Dennison and BT alone to run the exisiting plabook.
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Ravage!!!
10-28-2010, 11:42 AM
IMHO who cares where a coach comes from it is successful and there is no doubt in anyones mind that NE is a premier program since the new owner took over.

[/i][/size]

So it doesn't matter if the coach is successful, just that where he came from was successful? Can a good coach come from a bad team?

Lonestar
10-28-2010, 11:46 AM
Actually, Goodman, before he was screwed over, attended one of the early meetings. But it was Joe Ellis that went back for the second interview and came back raving about some plan of his. Also, since the hire, I think Ellis is on record admitting that he is/was enamored with the Patriots.

Joe is a financial guy it was Pats decision to hire Josh and IMO joe just went back to get an agreement in principal about money before making the final deal with his agent.

Was he enamoured with The NE model no more so than Pat was.

It was Pat that signed the deal and sent him back to have a second chit chat.
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Lonestar
10-28-2010, 11:50 AM
Did Joe Ellis bang your girlfriend or something? Just curious.

Been thinking the same thing myabe this is goodman posting as jack klug.
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Ravage!!!
10-28-2010, 11:54 AM
You know, Pat Bowlen is about my age. Through all my years of experience, I
would know better than to hire people the ages and experience levels of
McDaniels and Xanders to run my company. With the likes of Gruden, Cowher,
et al. running around out there . . . why? You mentioned pride and ego: Well,
humility most often comes with age and experience.

So does knowing what the hell you're doing.

I don't know . . . the hiring of McDaniels, the jettisoning of Cutler, the circus
around Marshall, Scheffler, and Hillis, among other developments, has been a
nightmare for me. And I have yet to awaken from it . . .

-----


I saluted your post because of I believe in most of what you said, especially above. I didn't want to quote the entire thing for the same reason I didn't want to quote cane's..(long).

Although I do not agree with you on how good Orton is, nor do I agree with you on the quality and depth of our WRs, I believe you expressed this part of your post well.

Interestingly enough. When we first hired McD I was excited that we went "young and new" instead of someone else. Now, after seeing what the inexperience and youth has done to our organization, I'm SCREAMING that we got someone SOOo inexperienced and yet handed him the keys of SOO much responsibility. Giving him the ability to make so many DRASTIC changes to our up-n-coming franchise ... KILLS me.

I was so excited about the way our team was growing and moving after the '08 season. Now I look at the roster .... and just......:tsk: What do we have? Its been heartbreaking to see so much talent leave so quickly from this team.

Lonestar
10-28-2010, 12:37 PM
I don't hate him, t.

Could have surprised me after that dialog.

Are you sure?
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Lonestar
10-28-2010, 12:51 PM
I don't hate Mcd, in fact I like his work ethis and passion for the game. What I don't like is some of his scheme choices, some of his personel decisions, his love for former Patriot rejects, his inability to use the talent on the roster within his schemes and his arrogance that he has yet to back up. In the end it's about results and I don't like a lot of what I've seen to date nor the direction we are headed. He seems to be learning the trade at the expense of the organiztion I love dearly. I also don't like that he seems clueless in how to field an effective running game, that's a biggie with me.

Winning changes everything, I'd love for him to turn this thing around but the way I see it that would require him making some changes in his approach and phylosphy and he seems to bull headed to do so. Good coaches can tailor their schems around the individual and unique talent on their roster. Doesn't look like he can do that. I'm ready for this team to win and I hope we do so with him. I don't want to live through yet another rebuilding season or two.

Let me get this straight had he kept jay,BM,TS,and hillis. And not brought in 4-5 IIRC NE players all would be good with you.

Do you really think that jay would have not had the same learning curve that Orton had?

Do you think that jay would have liked being in a controlled passing game forcing him to abstain from big plays to finding the open man and not throw picks?

Do you really think the above?

Do you think that TS would have been a willing blocker?

That marshall would have magically stopped being a head case one step/action away from a 8 week vacation?

That hillis would hav learned to block with the big boys in the NFL and be able to absorb a new playbook each week?



Do you REALLY feel we would have gotten over the above hurdles and been a magically better team had they stayed.

As for the NE guys who better to bring in but folks that alraedy know the scheme oppose to someone that needs to learn it also.

That were brought in to be back ups not instant starters excepting perhaps Gaffeny.

But the rest were on the field insurance.



Just do not see why any of the above is not logial thought for everyone.
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tomjonesrocks
10-28-2010, 12:54 PM
BTW, has anyone noticed that the fanbase seems to be more united now after 1.5 years of division and rancor?


Does it? Still seems to me McD has far too many defenders. Thought this would by now be more like the Wade Phillips/Cowboys fans situation (where disdain for Wade amongst Cowboys fans is unanimous).

Jake Klug
10-28-2010, 12:56 PM
Does it? Still seems to me McD has far too many defenders. Thought this would by now be more like the Wade Phillips/Cowboys fans situation (where disdain for Wade amongst Cowboys fans is unanimous).

You could be right but it seems like there are more defenders because its a few that post a lot trying to get out in front of issues like some political spin doctor.

topscribe
10-28-2010, 01:00 PM
Let me get this straight had he kept jay,BM,TS,and hillis. And not brought in 4-5 IIRC NE players all would be good with you.

Do you really think that jay would have not had the same learning curve that Orton had?

Do you think that jay would have liked being in a controlled passing game forcing him to abstain from big plays to finding the open man and not throw picks?

Do you really think the above?

Do you think that TS would have been a willing blocker?

That marshall would have magically stopped being a head case one step/action away from a 8 week vacation?

That hillis would hav learned to block with the big boys in the NFL and be able to absorb a new playbook each week?



Do you REALLY feel we would have gotten over the above hurdles and been a magically better team had they stayed.

As for the NE guys who better to bring in but folks that alraedy know the scheme oppose to someone that needs to learn it also.

That were brought in to be back ups not instant starters excepting perhaps Gaffeny.

But the rest were on the field insurance.



Just do not see why any of the above is not logial thought for everyone.
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I see merit on both sides of this argument. The passing game is as good now
as it was before the shakeup. I don't believe we can argue that. The running
game, however, not only is worse than it was, but it could not be worse,
period.

The bottom line is that I am not happy, which puts me into the majority, I
think. The players have to play, sure, but the team's play is reflective of the
decisions being made, and have been made, from above.

Maybe McDaniels will grow out of his present maladies of apparent youth.
Maybe he already is, I don't know. All I know is that, with all the good
coaches running free out there, the Broncos did not have to go through that
in the first place, IMO.

And giving so much GM authority to McDaniels was a mistake, IMO, one
whose logic totally escapes me after the Shanny debacle in that area. But
then, Xanders was a mistake, too . . .

-----

Superchop 7
10-28-2010, 01:07 PM
Because he and Joe Ellis are idiots that ruined a franchise for the sake of their egos.

Other than that, I think they are great.

Ravage!!!
10-28-2010, 01:11 PM
Its silly to think that TS couldn't block well enough, to still NOT be considered the better TE option than what we have. Period.

Its SILLY to think that Hillis was able to block, run, and "absorb" a different playbook each week under Shanahan. McD's system is NOT more difficult than Mikes, and Hillis is not stupid DESPITE the ridiculous rumor that was pushed around the message boards.

Its absurdly bias to believe that the QB would "not be happy" with a controlled offense. Thats dumb. Thats purely dislike speaking and has NOTHING to do with logic.

Marshall is excelling in yet, another system with yet another QB at the helm. The guy just CONTINUES to be a beast no matter who the QB is, and no matter what the offensive system is.

Lonestar
10-28-2010, 01:17 PM
Does it? Still seems to me McD has far too many defenders. Thought this would by now be more like the Wade Phillips/Cowboys fans situation (where disdain for Wade amongst Cowboys fans is unanimous).

Let's see wade having perhaps the most talented team in footbal the past 5-6 verses the train wreck that has been trying to fix the past 1.5 year.

Yep fair comparison.
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jhildebrand
10-28-2010, 01:23 PM
Do you think that TS would have been a willing blocker?


Even if he wasn't what difference would that make? :confused:

That is why the Broncos paid a king's ransome for R. Quinn.

Let's also not forget that we have Daniel Graham to block as well.

So far this offense has shown it is missing a TE who can catch the ball, stretch the field, and create match up problems.

This team would be better off with a TE like Scheffler who is too big and too fast for a LB and S yet most teams wouldn't devote a CB to.

EDIT: I am not disgruntled about Scheffler. I could care less who the TE is so long as there is one! If McD didn't have an adequate sure fire replacement ready, then it seems he should have held off on any move until he had as much.

Lancane
10-28-2010, 01:46 PM
Could have surprised me after that dialog.

Are you sure?
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Lack of respect and bitterness can sometimes taken as hate, just like sometimes being supportive and friendly could be taken as a form of love. ;)

Lonestar
10-28-2010, 01:55 PM
I see merit on both sides of this argument. The passing game is as good now
as it was before the shakeup. I don't believe we can argue that. The running
game, however, not only is worse than it was, but it could not be worse,
period.

The bottom line is that I am not happy, which puts me into the majority, I
think. The players have to play, sure, but the team's play is reflective of the
decisions being made, and have been made, from above.

Maybe McDaniels will grow out of his present maladies of apparent youth.
Maybe he already is, I don't know. All I know is that, with all the good
coaches running free out there, the Broncos did not have to go through that
in the first place, IMO.

And giving so much GM authority to McDaniels was a mistake, IMO, one
whose logic totally escapes me after the Shanny debacle in that area. But
then, Xanders was a mistake, too . . .

-----

Running game not practice per se in training camp because they could not cobble together enough enventual starters to make it worthwhile.

Now we have clady 80% Kuper 90% harris? The rookies bedales and JD as well as moreno almost availbale to seriously work on the running game over the next few weeks.

As for not hiring a real GM first yes that bothered me.

But after this last draft and all the talent we seemed to come out with tends to make me less concerned.

I just do not see that Josh is a bad judge of talent as the last two drafts seem to have proven out, along with getting rid of the dead weight and head cases he inherited.
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slim
10-28-2010, 01:56 PM
Does it? Still seems to me McD has far too many defenders. Thought this would by now be more like the Wade Phillips/Cowboys fans situation (where disdain for Wade amongst Cowboys fans is unanimous).

That is not a fair comparison.

Wade is fat. It is easier to hate fat people, IMO.

BroncoNut
10-28-2010, 01:57 PM
Lack of respect and bitterness can sometimes taken as hate, just like sometimes being supportive and friendly could be taken as a form of love. ;)

this is very deep.

BroncoNut
10-28-2010, 01:59 PM
Lack of respect and bitterness can sometimes taken as hate, just like sometimes being supportive and friendly could be taken as a form of love. ;)

I think love and hate are human emotions, while behaving friendly or distrustful are elements of our animal instincts which are necessary to survive.

arapaho2
10-28-2010, 02:04 PM
Running game not practice per se in training camp because they could not cobble together enough enventual starters to make it worthwhile.

Now we have clady 80% Kuper 90% harris? The rookies bedales and JD as well as moreno almost availbale to seriously work on the running game over the next few weeks.

As for not hiring a real GM first yes that bothered me.

But after this last draft and all the talent we seemed to come out with tends to make me less concerned.

I just do not see that Josh is a bad judge of talent as the last two drafts seem to have proven out, along with getting rid of the dead weight and head cases he inherited.
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the last two drafts have worked out?...really

ayers...even uninjured has shown little to prove he deserved such a high selection

moreno has equally shown nothing compared to backs taken lower

alphonso was a wasted pick..14th overall traded for a 7th a year later:lol:

quinn...2 3rds and all we get is a guy in the doghouse who cant grasp his duty and cant beat out gronkowski

tebow?...a guy who costed us so much with a team that needed so much...and he spends 99.% of the game time on the bench

thomas...2 crucial fumbles...more time injured then healthy...minimal results

yeah his high picks are tearing up the league:coffee:

Lancane
10-28-2010, 02:22 PM
Cane, I saluted this post because of all you put into it, and I agree with some
of it. Just a couple minor items: I don't believe Orton is simply a "journeyman"
QB. I believe he has proven himself a legitimate offensive and deep threat, and
all he needs is a little help and to keep from getting killed - which you did touch
upon.

Nonetheless, the potentially better QB has been shipped off and is presently
being destroyed as a QB in Chicago (shades of Steve Tensi - even the Broncos'
line is better than Chicago's).

Lloyd, also, has shown himself a legitimate deep threat. I don't know where he
stands right now, but he was leading the league in YPC, and has proven able
to beat double coverage deep.

The WR corps is not the problem: They are uber talented and deep (although
they played like they were wearing ankle weights in the last game).

The O-line has been porous, but it now is showing signs of forming and gelling.
It is very young, and it takes a while - and its restructuring has been inevitable
because of the injuries and the fact that two of the former starters had become
ineffective.

The offense is growing, IMO, and will ultimately be fine - assuming Orton
survives.

The defense is what they have failed to improve. Of course, part of that is
because of injuries, rendering the LB corps extremely thin, especially on the
outside. Having to put Haggan out there to get repeatedly pancaked is an
example of that. (And I understand Ayers is staying home - the wrong weekend
for that. Frank Gore is going to run out onto the field with the front of his jersey
all wet from drooling.)

But really, one linebacker: That is all they needed - well, that and one D-lineman.
And they ignored that in lieu of a project QB who may or may not make it in the
NFL. McDaniels said he was doing what he was doing to "give the team the
best chance to win." Well, a number one draft choice carrying a clipboard is
hardly giving them that chance, with the likes of McClain and Maualuga playing
elsewhere.

You know, Pat Bowlen is about my age. Through all my years of experience, I
would know better than to hire people the ages and experience levels of
McDaniels and Xanders to run my company. With the likes of Gruden, Cowher,
et al. running around out there . . . why? You mentioned pride and ego: Well,
humility most often comes with age and experience.

So does knowing what the hell you're doing.

I don't know . . . the hiring of McDaniels, the jettisoning of Cutler, the circus
around Marshall, Scheffler, and Hillis, among other developments, has been a
nightmare for me. And I have yet to awaken from it . . .

-----

Could Orton be more then a journeyman? Possibly...but do me a favor and look at Orton from all aspects Top; he's got a decent but not great arm, good overall quickness and pretty good legs when the situation calls for it...however, is he a product of a system? Yes, Orton has thrived in a quarterback friendly system and utterly failed in the more traditional pro offensive schemes that are being used around the NFL. He's proving one thing to me though, and that is that he is trying to be a leader when no one else is and that speaks volumes about his character. Problem is that he has no talent around him, Lloyd may lead the league in reception yards and is a valued deep threat, but he's admitted that he's a possession receiver, period...he focuses on getting the ball but not on doing more after the catch. And he's not the only one, look at Gaffney as well...how many times have they made great sliding and falling catches ending the play? We have no true receiving threat and that's a fact, if we still had Marshall with Lloyd and Gaffney, along with a true receiving threat at the tight end position....then Orton could quite literally be up for league MVP and have numbers beyond yardage to support it and I would more then likely agree that he's become a franchise capable quarterback, as long as our system didn't change and remained a pro-spread type offense.

As for the defensive coaching, Martindale included and other management issues such with Ellis and Xanders, I think that we all pretty much agree that there is a problem in those areas. But there is also an issue with the coaching and game planning from McDaniels and especially with all he's done...in my eyes he's done too much damage to really ever be that coach here in Denver.

I Eat Staples
10-28-2010, 02:22 PM
Scheffler. He presented massive match-up problems in the RZ (and everywhere else).

-----

Agreed, and what makes it awful hard to swallow is the poor amount of compensation we got for him along with now having Dan Gronkowski when we could have had Scheffler.

For those saying he couldn't block, we already have two blocking TEs. Quinn has proven to be a scrub, Graham is a good blocker but not a good receiver. So wouldn't it make sense to have Graham for situations where the TE needs to block and Scheffler for situations where the TE needs to be a receiving threat? No reason to trade Scheffler whatsoever in my opinion.

And the people saying he had poor character or quit on the team are just making excuses for McD. He was frustrated about a lot of things last year. A player is allowed to be frustrated, get over it. He never said he didn't want to be a Bronco, or anything of the sort.


Add to that his brillance in the draft this year

It was certainly brilliant. For Baltimore...

Lonestar
10-28-2010, 02:23 PM
Even if he wasn't what difference would that make? :confused:

That is why the Broncos paid a king's ransome for R. Quinn.

Let's also not forget that we have Daniel Graham to block as well.

So far this offense has shown it is missing a TE who can catch the ball, stretch the field, and create match up problems.

This team would be better off with a TE like Scheffler who is too big and too fast for a LB and S yet most teams wouldn't devote a CB to.

EDIT: I am not disgruntled about Scheffler. I could care less who the TE is so long as there is one! If McD didn't have an adequate sure fire replacement ready, then it seems he should have held off on any move until he had as much.

Regardless of if he did not have a blocking TE to replace TS who could not block himself out of a wet paper bag.

No need for another malcontent on the team. Especially since he is not a blocker.
As for a recieveing TE not a biggie in the spread O that places wr skill at a premium.

We are no longer a running ZBS, TE oriented Mikeys offense. Time to realize things have changed.
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slim
10-28-2010, 02:26 PM
I don't understand how Scheff is a red zone beast all of a sudden. When did this happen?

He has 15 tds in 4.5 years in the league. That is an average of 3 tds per year.

Lancane
10-28-2010, 02:40 PM
I think love and hate are human emotions, while behaving friendly or distrustful are elements of our animal instincts which are necessary to survive.

Actually Nut, they're emotions and instincts all animals have, we've seen hate shown by wolves and apes, as well as love. We've also seen friendliness, trust or distrust and more from some of those same species; after all we're all animals...so we are not species that is exclusive to such things, we can only rationalize them better.

arapaho2
10-28-2010, 02:43 PM
Regardless of if he did not have a blocking TE to replace TS who could not block himself out of a wet paper bag.

No need for another malcontent on the team. Especially since he is not a blocker.
As for a recieveing TE not a biggie in the spread O that places wr skill at a premium.

We are no longer a running ZBS, TE oriented Mikeys offense. Time to realize things have changed.
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you are aware that the role model for this offense..as in belechicks offense...went out and drafted two pass catching Tes...one being the hernandez who is already second in team receptions

:lol::lol:

silkamilkamonico
10-28-2010, 02:45 PM
I really like McDaniels. Unfortunately he better start winning. Like now.

silkamilkamonico
10-28-2010, 02:46 PM
you are aware that the role model for this offense..as in belechicks offense...went out and drafted two pass catching Tes...one being the hernandez who is already second in team receptions

:lol::lol:

Right. And it is not nearly as explosive as it was a couple years ago with McDaniels calling the plays, and 0 "pass catching TE's".

topscribe
10-28-2010, 02:47 PM
Running game not practice per se in training camp because they could not cobble together enough enventual starters to make it worthwhile.

Now we have clady 80% Kuper 90% harris? The rookies bedales and JD as well as moreno almost availbale to seriously work on the running game over the next few weeks.

As for not hiring a real GM first yes that bothered me.

But after this last draft and all the talent we seemed to come out with tends to make me less concerned.

I just do not see that Josh is a bad judge of talent as the last two drafts seem to have proven out, along with getting rid of the dead weight and head cases he inherited.
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Well, you may be right, my friend, and I dearly hope you are.

Bottom line, however, is the W-L record. Orton came over as one of the winningest
QBs in football. He came over with one of the highest QBRs in the RZ in football. But
the Broncos since have fallen flat on their collective faces on both accounts.

I saw questionable things before, but I glossed over them because . . . well, look at
my sig. But in light of the massive failures, those questions have begun to stand out.

I don't care if it is with or without McDaniels, with or without Xanders, with or without
Orton . . . I am a Broncos fan, and I like to see them win. Bottom line . . .

-----

arapaho2
10-28-2010, 02:52 PM
I don't understand how Scheff is a red zone beast all of a sudden. When did this happen?

He has 15 tds in 4.5 years in the league. That is an average of 3 tds per year.


under shanny in limited time...three seasons he had 13 of his 15 tds
10 of them in the redzone

09 was a wash as josh rarely put him in the game
2010 he is already the lions leading TE...despite being targeted as the backup

Dzone
10-28-2010, 03:35 PM
Wow! Great thread! I am so glad to finally know that I am not the only guy on this board that is fed up with Mcdaniels! LOL

Dreadnought
10-28-2010, 03:43 PM
Wow! Great thread! I am so glad to finally know that I am not the only guy on this board that is fed up with Mcdaniels! LOL

When you think about it, any group of people dedicated enough to the Broncos to post their thinking etc. on a message board hundreds and thousands of times will get pissed when somebody trashes the object of their affections.

Bottom line; the Broncos have been a major part of my life since @ 1969. I started thinking in @ mid/late November 2009 that Josh McDaniels had in fact ruined my Broncos. It will likely take years to undo the damage this idiot has done to my team. Why wouldn't I hate the SOB?

Gimpygod
10-28-2010, 03:43 PM
Three of the greatest posts I have ever read on any form about any subject one right after the other… Simply awesome. You have actually gave me some revelation on what I have been feeling, why I have been disenchanted and unenthusiastic about watching the Broncos. I used to actually get heart palpitations prior to a Broncos game, my expectation and excitement could hardly be contained by my little body. Now I find myself forgetting the game is even on.

McDaniels represents everything I dislike in management. Excellent writing with succinct and intelligent points.:salute: thank you to the original creator of this thread, I know these excellent posts were not what you had in mind as responses but they have really brought me a lot of focus and peace of mind along with the feeling of comradeship… Now I know I'm not the only one!


From another thread @ a month ago. He's certainly done nothing to change my mind since then :lol:

As a naturally lazy man I'll just copy and paste here

His personnel and leadership skills are flat out dismal. I have worked for both great and awful bosses in my life, and he represents almost every management and leadership flaw I think there is.

I hate, and I believe him to be guilty of every one of these errors. While some apply most specifically to NFL coaching, all also apply to leadership and character.

1) He falls in love with his own plans. When they don't work he blames others, not his own plans. A sign of weak character.

2) Coming into a new organization and larding up the roster with flunkies, chair sniffers, and yes-men from his last job. This can be done in extreme moderation, but doing things like getting rid of Mike Leach the way he did sent a message to all the existing guys on the roster that they were goners even if there was no issue with their play. It was ridiculous and an unforced error.

3) Refusal to acknowledge that there is existing talent in the new organization. Helps destroy teamwork, and sends a message its all about him. I believe he is more selfish and less team oriented than the worst Diva WR out there.

4) Ranting and raving in public. A complete pet peeve of mine, and usually a symptom of poor leadership IMO

5) Dressing down and humiliating subordinates in public, and especially in front of their peers. I detest this

6) Stubbornness. A weak and stupid man's imitation of resolve.

7) Ego. arrogance, and enormous self esteem. See also points 1-6 above. he is a cocky SOB, and I dislike cocky SOB's. 8) Dishonesty with subordinates. No, not just the Jay Cutler/Matt Cassell fiasco, though that counts. Lie to the press all you want (as a coach) because they aren't your friends. That said, don't wage wars in the media with your own subordinates, e.g. Marshall and Scheffler in the week 17 benching incident last year - and in any event his explanation of what happened in that doesn't pass the laugh test. If you lie to your subordinates, in any field, you can't lead them


If he won a Superbowl I would concede he was a better coach than I thought. I would be elated for the Broncos - and I still wouldn't miss him if he announced in the post game interview that he was going to resign and move to Borneo to open an orphanage.

I rate his liklihood of winning a Superbowl as about zero however

Ravage!!!
10-28-2010, 03:45 PM
Right. And it is not nearly as explosive as it was a couple years ago with McDaniels calling the plays, and 0 "pass catching TE's".

Yet.... NFL QBs are noting that the offense is MUCH more like the offense that atually WON Super Bowls than it has been for the last few years.

jhildebrand
10-28-2010, 03:56 PM
Regardless of if he did not have a blocking TE to replace TS who could not block himself out of a wet paper bag.

So you are simply going to close your eyes to the argument I posed, wiz? There are already 2 blocking TE's on the team almost three now counting Gronkowski.

How many do you want? :confused:



No need for another malcontent on the team. Especially since he is not a blocker.


Just how exactly was he a malcontent. Please be specific.

Again, we are seeing the loss of Schefler week in and week out. It is getting worse because teams seemed to figure out how to slow down Lloyd. Gafney is ok and Royal is banged up.

The solution would be a fast, match up creating TE who can catch the ball.

McDaniels traded him away. That's his perogitive! But it seems he would at least recognize the value in a TE who can stretch the field.



As for a recieveing TE not a biggie in the spread O that places wr skill at a premium.

Really? :confused: McD's idol has been using the TE more and more. They even went out and spent a decent pick on the kid from FL.

Again, see my quote above. This team has issues, including running the ball, due in large part to our lack of a credible TE.



We are no longer a running ZBS, TE oriented Mikeys offense. Time to realize things have changed.
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I would realize things changed even more if you didn't drop his name in every 2nd post of yours.

Speaking of Shanahan, we all know his system required the WR's and TE's to block. Funny thing is Schefler did well in it. So while you are at it, please be sure to tell me and show me precisely why Schefler isn't a blocker. Give me something other than your opinion.

jhildebrand
10-28-2010, 03:59 PM
Right. And it is not nearly as explosive as it was a couple years ago with McDaniels calling the plays, and 0 "pass catching TE's".

What did explosive get them? :confused:

A lot of people could coordinate a team with a HOF QB, a HOF HC, a HOF WR, and Wes Welker. :coffee:

It is also known that Belichick has moved more away from McD's style of play ever since he left town.

Gimpygod
10-28-2010, 04:01 PM
Notice only those that speak up against him get hi5's? :confused:

Sorry didn't know we had to highfive stuff we do not agree with...is that in the coc? I'm starting to dislike that document.

Ravage!!!
10-28-2010, 04:04 PM
I would realize things changed even more if you didn't drop his name in every 2nd post of yours.

Speaking of Shanahan, we all know his system required the WR's and TE's to block. Funny thing is Schefler did well in it. So while you are at it, please be sure to tell me and show me precisely why Schefler isn't a blocker. Give me something other than your opinion.

Because thats what has to be spread around to JUSTIFY the trade. Ignore the facts that Shanahan used him, everyone blocks, and yet still had the benefit of a good pass-catching TE. Thats irrelevant. The main point is, not being able to block is the justification that "fits." May not be true, or make sense, but it fits.

jhildebrand
10-28-2010, 04:07 PM
I think a lot of people dislike him because of the personnel moves that were made.

This is like the blame Bush crap we still see in politics. People have made it abundantly clear, myself included, that shipping off Marshall and company play a role but aren't the major reason for their disdain.

Furthermore, I have seen some very long time, established posters who either were on the fence or on the McD side come out and change their position. Now all of a sudden they are taking issues with personnel moves? :confused:

Please! They see the reality after a pounding by a bad raiders team. They see 0-4 in the division games. They see a bad home record. They see the terrible use of draft picks i.e. A Smith is two draft picks that are 0 places on the roster, R Quinn is how many draft picks to sit inactive? How many on Tebow to be doing nothing?

slim
10-28-2010, 04:10 PM
under shanny in limited time...three seasons he had 13 of his 15 tds
10 of them in the redzone

09 was a wash as josh rarely put him in the game
2010 he is already the lions leading TE...despite being targeted as the backup

He had 12 touchdowns in 3 years with shanny.

That is 4 per year. Yay!

jhildebrand
10-28-2010, 04:17 PM
He had 12 touchdowns in 3 years with shanny.

That is 4 per year. Yay!

How many do our TE's have under McD? :confused: Now take into consideration the games that were lost by less than a TD where the Broncos settled for FG's becuase our RZ couldn't score.

I guess what I am saying is I would take 4 more RZ td's right now regardless of where they come from.

slim
10-28-2010, 04:23 PM
How many do our TE's have under McD? :confused: Now take into consideration the games that were lost by less than a TD where the Broncos settled for FG's becuase our RZ couldn't score.

I guess what I am saying is I would take 4 more RZ td's right now regardless of where they come from.

I guess what I am saying is the RZ offense when Schef was here sucked almost as much as the current RZ offense. In fact, it is hard to tell the difference.

I just don't think Schef is the answer.

jhildebrand
10-28-2010, 04:30 PM
I guess what I am saying is the RZ offense when Schef was here sucked almost as much as the current RZ offense. In fact, it is hard to tell the difference.

I just don't think Schef is the answer.

I lauded the McDaniels hiring because I thought if there was one thing his offensive mind could fix it was the RZ. I looked forward to having a high round RB on the roster for once.

The RZ got worse. I am not arguing Schefler is the answer, I am simply arguing that McDaniels once again made a move prior to identifying an adequate replacement first.

I don't care that he traded Schef. I could not care less. I care though that he operated without first knowing what Schef could do and had done and not gotten some kind of value.

After all, this is 4 RZ TD's per year we are talking about which highlights the problem! We are talking about finding someone who could replace 4 RZ TD's.

slim
10-28-2010, 04:33 PM
I lauded the McDaniels hiring because I thought if there was one thing his offensive mind could fix it was the RZ. I looked forward to having a high round RB on the roster for once.

The RZ got worse. I am not arguing Schefler is the answer, I am simply arguing that McDaniels once again made a move prior to identifying an adequate replacement first.

I don't care that he traded Schef. I could not care less. I care though that he operated without first knowing what Schef could do and had done and not gotten some kind of value.

After all, this is 4 RZ TD's per year we are talking about which highlights the problem! We are talking about finding someone who could replace 4 RZ TD's.

No it is 4 tds per year, total. I did not break it down by length of score.

I wonder what Dick Quinn is doing right now.

Dreadnought
10-28-2010, 04:34 PM
Because thats what has to be spread around to JUSTIFY the trade. Ignore the facts that Shanahan used him, everyone blocks, and yet still had the benefit of a good pass-catching TE. Thats irrelevant. The main point is, not being able to block is the justification that "fits." May not be true, or make sense, but it fits.

That and the ever popular "bad attitude." This becomes less plausible as the guys so tagged didn't have attitude problems prior to McD, and don't seem to have them now. It begs the question of just who exactly has the attitiude problem?

Lonestar
10-28-2010, 04:49 PM
Well, you may be right, my friend, and I dearly hope you are.

Bottom line, however, is the W-L record. Orton came over as one of the winningest
QBs in football. He came over with one of the highest QBRs in the RZ in football. But
the Broncos since have fallen flat on their collective faces on both accounts.

I saw questionable things before, but I glossed over them because . . . well, look at
my sig. But in light of the massive failures, those questions have begun to stand out.

I don't care if it is with or without McDaniels, with or without Xanders, with or without
Orton . . . I am a Broncos fan, and I like to see them win. Bottom line . . .

-----

In mobile there are no avys, sigs or smilies.

As for W-L so far we have played IIRC 5 of the top teams out our 7. Games and been in every game but one.

Anyone expecting the super bowl playoffs or even a winning records in a rebuilding years is way more optomistic than I am.
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I Eat Staples
10-28-2010, 05:06 PM
He had 12 touchdowns in 3 years with shanny.

That is 4 per year. Yay!

That's 4 more per year than Dan Gronkowski will ever catch.

Ravage!!!
10-28-2010, 05:40 PM
He had 12 touchdowns in 3 years with shanny.

That is 4 per year. Yay!

Damnit Slim... you made me go and do homework. You know I love ya, but dude...
(NONE of the below TEs have any TDs counted for the 2010 season as we don't know how that season will end, and wanted to keep consistent)

Todd Heap....... 9 years... average 4 TDs per season
Greg Olson........ 3 years....average 5 TDs per season
Jason Whitten...7 years.....average 3.85 TDs per season
Finley................2 years...average 2 TDs per season
Daniel Owens.....4 years....average 3.75 TDs per season

Dallas Clark......7 years..... average 5.85 TDs per season (only 3.5 TD averate his first 4 years, and in his seven years he had 2 seasons that were double digits that raised his average a lot)

Mercedes Lewis...4 years.....average 1.75 TDs per season
Shianco..............7 years....average 3.14 TDs per season
Jeremy Shocky.....6 years....average 4.125 TDs per season
Zach Miller...........3 years....average 2.33 TDs per season
Heath Miller.........5 years.....average 5.4 TDs per season

These are all considered to be good pass catching TEs. Unless your name is Gonzalez (13 yrs 6.3 TDs average) or Antonio Gates ( 7 years, 8.42 average), then 4 TDs a season in your first 4 seasons in the NFL is damned good.

Gimpygod
10-28-2010, 06:02 PM
If Joe Ellis was enamored with the Patriots and brought McDaniels here to make the Broncos like New England, theres a lot of decision making by the coach that ties back to Joe Ellis' fixation with New England either by being allowed to make changes or specifically encouraged to do so. Your comments about jettisoning the old offense and not merely fixing the defense tie into this.

Have you ever heard of that fable about the turtle and the scorpion trying to cross the pond? Its kind of like that. Do you blame the turtle, or do you blame the scorpion?

I think it's a frog because the turtle has a shell and the story would be kind of weird if the scorpion was all like "I'm stinging you because it is in my nature!" Sting, sting! And the turtle would be all like "big deal I have a shell!" So they would both make it to the other side and there wouldn't be any tragedy… Can't have a Greek story without tragedy, Aesop wouldn't allow it.

topscribe
10-28-2010, 06:22 PM
I guess what I am saying is the RZ offense when Schef was here sucked almost as much as the current RZ offense. In fact, it is hard to tell the difference.

I just don't think Schef is the answer.

Well, you may have a point there. What does make the difference in the RZ is a
running game. I think that's a given, isn't it?

But I'm not sure Schef wasn't misused or underused by both regimes?

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Jake Klug
10-28-2010, 06:22 PM
I think it's a frog because the turtle has a shell and the story would be kind of weird if the scorpion was all like "I'm stinging you because it is in my nature!" Sting, sting! And the turtle would be all like "big deal I have a shell!" So they would both make it to the other side and there wouldn't be any tragedy… Can't have a Greek story without tragedy, Aesop wouldn't allow it.

You might be right. I kind of had a harder time picturing a frog giving a ride to the scorpion though.

topscribe
10-28-2010, 06:24 PM
In mobile there are no avys, sigs or smilies.

As for W-L so far we have played IIRC 5 of the top teams out our 7. Games and been in every game but one.

Anyone expecting the super bowl playoffs or even a winning records in a rebuilding years is way more optomistic than I am.
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Well, the Broncos are not playing a top team this Sunday. So we'll see how that works out.

My sig simply says I was voted the board's Biggest Homer. :D

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turftoad
10-28-2010, 06:42 PM
In mobile there are no avys, sigs or smilies.

As for W-L so far we have played IIRC 5 of the top teams out our 7. Games and been in every game but one.

Anyone expecting the super bowl playoffs or even a winning records in a rebuilding years is way more optomistic than I am.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

There were 3 that we were not in.

And..... again...... there was no reason to rebuild the offense untill McD tore it apart.

That was HIS choice and ALL on HIM.

claymore
10-28-2010, 07:00 PM
Well, the Broncos are not playing a top team this Sunday. So we'll see how that works out.

My sig simply says I was voted the board's Biggest Homer. :D

-----

We voted you the biggest homosexual but the mods eddited the post. :D

Gimpygod
10-28-2010, 07:17 PM
We voted you the biggest homosexual but the mods eddited the post. :D

by weight or volume of acts?

topscribe
10-28-2010, 08:20 PM
by weight or volume of acts?

Must be weight. I never read anything in Acts about homosexuals . . .

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topscribe
10-28-2010, 08:21 PM
We voted you the biggest homosexual but the mods eddited the post. :D

No Clay . . . that's homer, not homo. Use your reading glasses . . .

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Dreadnought
10-28-2010, 09:39 PM
No Clay . . . that's homer, not homo. Use your reading glasses . . .

-----

His eyesight is going Top...I think we all know why, too. Next Up: hair on the palms. He persists in ignoring the warnings

Lonestar
10-28-2010, 10:48 PM
There were 3 that we were not in.

And..... again...... there was no reason to rebuild the offense untill McD tore it apart.

That was HIS choice and ALL on HIM.

And again Pat hired him to install the spread passing game and the PBS running game.

He did not hire him to run mikes offense. I belive that is and always has been perfectly clear. Not sure which of these 3 games your talking about but if IIRC none of the games were blow outs and we were in them all till late in the game.

But then that was my perception.
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Northman
10-28-2010, 10:52 PM
Not sure which of these 3 games your talking about but if IIRC none of the games were blow outs and we were in them all till late in the game.



Um, the definition of being in a game is being in them until the final minute. In 3 games the game was over late in those games.

Jake Klug
10-28-2010, 10:54 PM
Um, the definition of being in a game is being in them until the final minute. In 3 games the game was over late in those games.

Dont even bother. You can already tell that your discussion is going to de-evolve into him tailoring his definition of blow out.

Shazam!
10-28-2010, 11:03 PM
Well, the Broncos are not playing a top team this Sunday. So we'll see how that works out.

Denver lost by 40+ to a squad of perrenial losers at home who were not a top team.

Lonestar
10-28-2010, 11:21 PM
Um, the definition of being in a game is being in them until the final minute. In 3 games the game was over late in those games.

Umm got a link to that defintion

I was under the impression it was going into the 4th quarter
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Northman
10-28-2010, 11:24 PM
Umm got a link to that defintion

I was under the impression it was going into the 4th quarter
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Yea, my definition and probably the same to some others. Simply being in a game for a couple of quarters doesnt constitute "being in the game" to me. Thats the difference between being a complete team and finishing it for 4 quarters. In 3 games Denver failed to stay in the game until the end.

Lonestar
10-28-2010, 11:25 PM
Btw which of the teams other than OAK is bot in the top ten as we speak.



I know that north and I will never agree on Josh. But it is OK that he is wrong. Someday he will come over to the "light" side.
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tomjonesrocks
10-28-2010, 11:27 PM
Orton....good overall quickness and pretty good legs when the situation calls for it...

*Orton* has good quickness? Always looks like he's running through quicksand in slow motion to me...

Northman
10-28-2010, 11:28 PM
Btw which of the teams other than OAK is bot in the top ten as we speak.



I know that north and I will never agree on Josh. But it is OK that he is wrong. Someday he will come over to the "light" side.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums


As long as Josh passes me the flashlight. :lol:

topscribe
10-28-2010, 11:52 PM
*Orton* has good quickness? Always looks like he's running through quicksand in slow motion to me...

You haven't been watching, have you? Granted, he is not Fran Tarkenton by
any stretch of the imagination, and he will probably never rip off a 40-yard run,
but he's not a "statue," either. But, yes, he has displayed decent quickness in
moving around the pocket and in deciding when to run . . .

-----

Dzone
10-29-2010, 09:38 AM
Has anyone observed Mcdaniels chewing his fingernails during games?????...Hardly the body language of a Leader.. I mean, he wasnt just chewing on them, he was gnawing on them like his life depended on it. I mean, come on dude, grow up!!!!.I have NEVER seen a head coach chewing his fingernails...not until this guy..very pathetic

Gimpygod
10-29-2010, 09:49 AM
Has anyone observed Mcdaniels chewing his fingernails during games?????...Hardly the body language of a Leader.. I mean, he wasnt just chewing on them, he was gnawing on them like his life depended on it. I mean, come on dude, grow up!!!!.I have NEVER seen a head coach chewing his fingernails...not until this guy..very pathetic

This one feels like a reach… What the hell, screw that nail chewing *******!:mad:

Gimpygod
10-29-2010, 09:57 AM
You haven't been watching, have you? Granted, he is not Fran Tarkenton by
any stretch of the imagination, and he will probably never rip off a 40-yard run,
but he's not a "statue," either. But, yes, he has displayed decent quickness in
moving around the pocket and in deciding when to run . . .

-----

remember when Elway would be back in the pocket and some monster would break through without being touched on his blind side? He would roll toward the guy but away from the line of scrimmage and never see them coming yet somehow seemed to sense the defender… For the love of God I miss that guy! Is it true that he blew out his Achilles or MCL or something in college and never got it repaired and everything we saw him doing in the pros was on a damaged wheel? I know he won two super Bowls with a completely torn bicep tendon… Was he from the future? If so is it from a future around now sometime? If so can we stop him from going back and make him play for us currently? I haven't done the math but it seems like a great idea:confused:.

Dzone
10-29-2010, 09:59 AM
This one feels like a reach… What the hell, screw that nail chewing *******!:mad:
No really. I think it might have been the Jets game. They showed a close up and he was munching his fingernails hard. Remember how Lebron James used to chew his fingernails while sitting on the bench? Mcdaniels was doing the same thing. I swear.
I remember saying out loud "Look at Mcdaniels chewing his fingernails!!!" It was pitiful....I cant be the only person who saw that. Someone back me up on this...LOL

Ravage!!!
10-29-2010, 10:03 AM
No really. I think it might have been the Jets game. They showed a close up and he was munching his fingernails hard. Remember how Lebron James used to chew his fingernails while sitting on the bench? Mcdaniels was doing the same thing. I swear.
I remember saying out loud "Look at Mcdaniels chewing his fingernails!!!" It was pitiful....I cant be the only person who saw that. Someone back me up on this...LOL

I saw it... but I honestly didn't think anything of it at the time. Its probably just a bigger pet peeve for you than for most, thus you notice it that much more. Just like you noticed (and actually remembered) Lebron James doing it.

Dzone
10-29-2010, 10:06 AM
remember when Elway would be back in the pocket and some monster would break through without being touched on his blind side? He would roll toward the guy but away from the line of scrimmage and never see them coming yet somehow seemed to sense the defender… For the love of God I miss that guy! Is it true that he blew out his Achilles or MCL or something in college and never got it repaired and everything we saw him doing in the pros was on a damaged wheel? I know he won two super Bowls with a completely torn bicep tendon… Was he from the future? If so is it from a future around now sometime? If so can we stop him from going back and make him play for us currently? I haven't done the math but it seems like a great idea:confused:.
Had his ACL removed, I think in high school. He Tore the long head of his right bicep tendon in a 1997 pre-season game in Mexico. IIRC At the time, it was uncertain if it was a season ending injury. After a couple weeks, he was throwing , he said, better than ever. By ripping the long head tendon away, it somehow took the pain away from his sore throwing shoulder. The bicep long head is one of the only tendons in the human body that we can function normally without. Also the bicep long head tear does not always need surgery. It just kind of balls up and sits there.

Ravage!!!
10-29-2010, 10:06 AM
remember when Elway would be back in the pocket and some monster would break through without being touched on his blind side? He would roll toward the guy but away from the line of scrimmage and never see them coming yet somehow seemed to sense the defender… For the love of God I miss that guy! Is it true that he blew out his Achilles or MCL or something in college and never got it repaired and everything we saw him doing in the pros was on a damaged wheel? I know he won two super Bowls with a completely torn bicep tendon… Was he from the future? If so is it from a future around now sometime? If so can we stop him from going back and make him play for us currently? I haven't done the math but it seems like a great idea:confused:.

Man I miss those days of having a stud behind center.

Yeah.. he tore out a leg ligament, and had to wear a brace through most of his career.

Dzone
10-29-2010, 10:09 AM
I saw it... but I honestly didn't think anything of it at the time. Its probably just a bigger pet peeve for you than for most, thus you notice it that much more. Just like you noticed (and actually remembered) Lebron James doing it.

Thanks. I suppose its because my occupation requires me to be a student of body Language. Fingernail biting is one of the worst things a person can do if they are trying to exude confidence. Its not congruent with leadership.

Oh, I am sure it bugged me even more because I cant stand mcdaniels..LOL

Gimpygod
10-29-2010, 10:14 AM
No really. I think it might have been the Jets game. They showed a close up and he was munching his fingernails hard. Remember how Lebron James used to chew his fingernails while sitting on the bench? Mcdaniels was doing the same thing. I swear.
I remember saying out loud "Look at Mcdaniels chewing his fingernails!!!" It was pitiful....I cant be the only person who saw that. Someone back me up on this...LOL

I have seen him do it several times, I was just thinking I already have an embarrassment of riches when it comes to pointing out why McDaniels is a douche bag, didn't know if "nail chewing" would be piling on.

Jake Klug
10-29-2010, 10:15 AM
Thanks. I suppose its because my occupation requires me to be a student of body Language. Fingernail biting is one of the worst things a person can do if they are trying to exude confidence. Its not congruent with leadership.

Oh, I am sure it bugged me even more because I cant stand mcdaniels..LOL

And he's short. I only point that out because once upon a time, being tall was the most prevalent characteristic people attributed to being a good leader.

Ravage!!!
10-29-2010, 10:27 AM
And he's short. I only point that out because once upon a time, being tall was the most prevalent characteristic people attributed to being a good leader.

Hence a large reason as to why George Washington was revered so highly at the time.

Dzone
10-29-2010, 10:29 AM
I have seen him do it several times, I was just thinking I already have an embarrassment of riches when it comes to pointing out why McDaniels is a douche bag, didn't know if "nail chewing" would be piling on.

LOL:laugh:

Ravage!!!
10-29-2010, 10:32 AM
the bad thing is, although I noticed.. I never REALLY noticed. Now when he does it on camera again.. I'm going to REALLY notice, and its going to drive me nuts. Thanks :tsk:

Dzone
10-29-2010, 10:35 AM
the bad thing is, although I noticed.. I never REALLY noticed. Now when he does it on camera again.. I'm going to REALLY notice, and its going to drive me nuts. Thanks :tsk:
Sorry. LOL
Its not like any of us need anything more to annoy us about the guy

arapaho2
10-29-2010, 10:59 AM
He had 12 touchdowns in 3 years with shanny.

That is 4 per year. Yay!



he never got real playing time as a rookie till week 13

he missed the first five games due to a preseason injury in 07

i think he did very well despite your dislike

arapaho2
10-29-2010, 11:08 AM
I guess what I am saying is the RZ offense when Schef was here sucked almost as much as the current RZ offense. In fact, it is hard to tell the difference.

I just don't think Schef is the answer.


dude its not that shceff is the answer...its the fact a 6'5" TE with speed and great hands could help, not only between the 20's...but as a huge target that must be covered in the redzone...COULD ONLY BE A BENEFIT TO THIS OFFENSE

understand?

jhildebrand
10-29-2010, 12:43 PM
dude its not that shceff is the answer...its the fact a 6'5" TE with speed and great hands could help, not only between the 20's...but as a huge target that must be covered in the redzone...COULD ONLY BE A BENEFIT TO THIS OFFENSE

understand?

Precisely! The idea that McDaniels cut his nose off to spite his face. I couldn't care less if he was here during the Elway years and shipped off Elway, so long as he didn't do it for selfish/weak motivations and more importantly REPLACED THE TALENT.

The more time goes on the more the idea holds that McD shipped people off more because of personality conflicts than anything else. If that is the case then you have no choice but to question his readiness to be an NFL coach.

I dont recall Singletary shipping Vernon Davis off! That was a far more explosive situation than anything Schef did. Look how that has paid dividends in SF.

arapaho2
10-29-2010, 01:02 PM
Precisely! The idea that McDaniels cut his nose off to spite his face. I couldn't care less if he was here during the Elway years and shipped off Elway, so long as he didn't do it for selfish/weak motivations and more importantly REPLACED THE TALENT.

The more time goes on the more the idea holds that McD shipped people off more because of personality conflicts than anything else. If that is the case then you have no choice but to question his readiness to be an NFL coach.

I dont recall Singletary shipping Vernon Davis off! That was a far more explosive situation than anything Schef did. Look how that has paid dividends in SF.

exactly...a good coach recognizes he may have personal conflicts with players...but they coach through them...a good coach would have looked at tonys concerns last year beind closed doors...they were legit concerns in my book given the short buble screen happy offense...where utilizing a mid range center of the field offense may have loosened things up a bit

josh couldnt, he had to make a public spectacul again of any coach or player who dare question his method...and cannot seem to get over it

Ravage!!!
10-29-2010, 02:45 PM
n NFL coach.

I dont recall Singletary shipping Vernon Davis off! That was a far more explosive situation than anything Schef did. Look how that has paid dividends in SF.

EXCELLENT example. :beer:

Ravage!!!
10-29-2010, 02:51 PM
Damnit Slim... you made me go and do homework. You know I love ya, but dude...
(NONE of the below TEs have any TDs counted for the 2010 season as we don't know how that season will end, and wanted to keep consistent)

Todd Heap....... 9 years... average 4 TDs per season
Greg Olson........ 3 years....average 5 TDs per season
Jason Whitten...7 years.....average 3.85 TDs per season
Finley................2 years...average 2 TDs per season
Daniel Owens.....4 years....average 3.75 TDs per season

Dallas Clark......7 years..... average 5.85 TDs per season (only 3.5 TD averate his first 4 years, and in his seven years he had 2 seasons that were double digits that raised his average a lot)

Mercedes Lewis...4 years.....average 1.75 TDs per season
Shianco..............7 years....average 3.14 TDs per season
Jeremy Shocky.....6 years....average 4.125 TDs per season
Zach Miller...........3 years....average 2.33 TDs per season
Heath Miller.........5 years.....average 5.4 TDs per season

These are all considered to be good pass catching TEs. Unless your name is Gonzalez (13 yrs 6.3 TDs average) or Antonio Gates ( 7 years, 8.42 average), then 4 TDs a season in your first 4 seasons in the NFL is damned good.

I'm quoting myself because it holds what I'm referring to.

None.. NONE... (even Tony G and Antonion Gates) "are the answer" by themselves. But Scheffler proved to be a valuable tool on offense. A tool that EVERY team in the NFL is trying to find...... fast TEs that cause mis-match problems.

Four TDs average per-season, is pretty damned good. But more importantly, when you get close to the endzone, or first down markers, and the LBs/ss have to watch the TE, then you have a guy on the outside like Marshall that demands so much respect..... the other WRs, and the RBs, have more space because THESE types of players cause the defense to adjust and account.

roomemp
10-29-2010, 03:07 PM
EXCELLENT example. :beer:


I know totally.....1-6 right? :confused:

Ravage!!!
10-29-2010, 03:29 PM
I know totally.....1-6 right? :confused:

so you are saying that the increased production in a top drafted TE, after the coach sent him to the locker room for "discipline"... is somehow to blame for the 1-6 record and its not a good example of how coaches work WITH players and through turmoil, purely based on the record???? :confused:

Explain to me this logic, for its TRULY confusing and seems to be a pure attempt to deflect from the point and defend something that isn't even addressed in your (seemingly) sarcastic post.

BigDaddyBronco
10-29-2010, 03:36 PM
so you are saying that the increased production in a top drafted TE, after the coach sent him to the locker room for "discipline"... is somehow to blame for the 1-6 record and its not a good example of how coaches work WITH players and through turmoil, purely based on the record???? :confused:

Explain to me this logic, for its TRULY confusing and seems to be a pure attempt to deflect from the point and defend something that isn't even addressed in your (seemingly) sarcastic post.
I think he is saying that you could have the best young TE in the game and it doesn't matter much. With a questionable QB and a young OLine it doesn't matter how good your TE is.

Ravage!!!
10-29-2010, 03:42 PM
I'm quoting myself because it holds what I'm referring to.

None.. NONE... (even Tony G and Antonion Gates) "are the answer" by themselves. But Scheffler proved to be a valuable tool on offense. A tool that EVERY team in the NFL is trying to find...... fast TEs that cause mis-match problems.

Four TDs average per-season, is pretty damned good. But more importantly, when you get close to the endzone, or first down markers, and the LBs/ss have to watch the TE, then you have a guy on the outside like Marshall that demands so much respect..... the other WRs, and the RBs, have more space because THESE types of players cause the defense to adjust and account.


I think he is saying that you could have the best young TE in the game and it doesn't matter much. With a questionable QB and a young OLine it doesn't matter how good your TE is.

Maybe, and I would agree, as I've already posted. However, we can say that about every position on the field.

TE isn't the answer by itself. A great safety isn't the answer, by itself. A rushing DE isn't the answer, by himself.

Just like an engine in your car, the spark plugs don't work by themselves. You have to build with individual pieces.

It may not be the answer, but it SURE as hell contributes to the problem when they are gone.

BigDaddyBronco
10-29-2010, 03:46 PM
Maybe, and I would agree, as I've already posted. However, we can say that about every position on the field.

TE isn't the answer by itself. A great safety isn't the answer, by itself. A rushing DE isn't the answer, by himself.

Just like an engine in your car, the spark plugs don't work by themselves. You have to build with individual pieces.

It may not be the answer, but it SURE as hell contributes to the problem when they are gone.I'm just saying that the loss of Scheff might have not made any difference to the final record of this team. It's hard to say. It's much easier to say that the loss of Doom will probably result in a loss this year as we have no pass rush, but our passing game is doing just fine without Scheffler.