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Ray Finkle
10-26-2010, 10:46 AM
Alright, to avoid on the OM negativity, I thought I'd try and post this here....

Since everyone is smarter than the front office, let's see who can rationally fix the team.

You must work in the context of this current season (no firing McD and hiring Gruden, Cowher, etc). You can only sign players on the street or that are on other teams PS. No trades since the trading deadline has passed. What scheme changes, play changes, program changes would you make?


I'd hire Parcel as a consultant to Xanders.

Northman
10-26-2010, 10:50 AM
Alright, to avoid on the OM negativity, I thought I'd try and post this here....

Since everyone is smarter than the front office, let's see who can rationally fix the team.

You must work in the context of this current season (no firing McD and hiring Gruden, Cowher, etc). You can only sign players on the street or that are on other teams PS. No trades since the trading deadline has passed. What scheme changes, play changes, program changes would you make?


I'd hire Parcel as a consultant to Xanders.


And what do you think Parcells would do at this point? More mentoring?

Nothing can save the season. We live and die with the choices that McD made going into it.

Ray Finkle
10-26-2010, 10:58 AM
I think they need a senior Football person to provide assistance. I thought Reese (from Tenn) would have made good sense last year. Not to run the day to day operations but just to give support/suggestions on critical topics (drafts, FA, strategy).

I Eat Staples
10-26-2010, 10:59 AM
Alright, to avoid on the OM negativity, I thought I'd try and post this here....

Since everyone is smarter than the front office, let's see who can rationally fix the team.

You must work in the context of this current season (no firing McD and hiring Gruden, Cowher, etc). You can only sign players on the street or that are on other teams PS. No trades since the trading deadline has passed. What scheme changes, play changes, program changes would you make?


I'd hire Parcel as a consultant to Xanders.

Uh, you're comparing us to the front office but saying we can only fix the team by leaving it alone. So this thread kind of defeats the purpose.

I think 75% of fans on this board are smarter than our front office by the way.

The Glue Factory
10-26-2010, 11:00 AM
Love the idea of this thread. I'm not going to say anything more as I don't have the knowledge to sound much better than a fool so...

Ray Finkle
10-26-2010, 11:01 AM
Uh, you're comparing us to the front office but saying we can only fix the team by leaving it alone. So this thread kind of defeats the purpose.

I think 75% of fans on this board are smarter than our front office by the way.

You don't have to leave the front office alone but the easy choice would "Fire McD and hire XXX" that's just not plausible. No good coach is going to come in mid stroke. You need to be creative and suggest fixes for this year and moving forward.

Northman
10-26-2010, 11:01 AM
Love the idea of this thread. I'm not going to say anything more as I don't have the knowledge to sound much better than a fool so...

Dont hold back, you would fit right in with the rest of us. :D

The Glue Factory
10-26-2010, 11:02 AM
Uh, you're comparing us to the front office but saying we can only fix the team by leaving it alone. So this thread kind of defeats the purpose.


Not exactly. He's just placing the limitations that Bowlen has to work with.

Ray Finkle
10-26-2010, 11:06 AM
It's simple, there is no easy fix to this solution nor am I going to give an easy out.

I think Hiring a senior football person is #1.

Northman
10-26-2010, 11:09 AM
It's simple, there is no easy fix to this solution nor am I going to give an easy out.

I think Hiring a senior football person is #1.


I do have a question for you. If we were to sign a senior football person would you still consider replacing McDaniels at seasons end? I mean, do you feel that he is doing the job he was meant too from his end?

Mike
10-26-2010, 11:10 AM
Fire Xanders and bring in an experienced GM would be 1. Telling McD that the new GM is running the organization with the final say on all decisions (including drafting) would be number 2.

I would look at bringing in a new offensive line coach and changing the blocking scheme. I would also look at bringing in a new ST coach.

roomemp
10-26-2010, 11:10 AM
Uh, you're comparing us to the front office but saying we can only fix the team by leaving it alone. So this thread kind of defeats the purpose.

I think 75% of fans on this board are smarter than our front office by the way.

How are 75% of fans smarter than the front office? Just curious as to your reasoning....Smart in a football sense or business sense?

EastCoastBronco
10-26-2010, 11:11 AM
We need that time machine form the Coke Zero commercial so we can go back and make sure our key players don't get all banged up.

Buff
10-26-2010, 11:12 AM
I think it's time we switch to all cotton uniforms. The players will be five degrees cooler than all of the other teams. :championship:

Northman
10-26-2010, 11:18 AM
I think it's time we switch to all cotton uniforms. The players will be five degrees cooler than all of the other teams. :championship:

I dont know, we are pretty finesse so maybe lingerie?

Krugan
10-26-2010, 11:21 AM
Why wouldnt firing the headcoach and promoting someone already here to interim headcoach be plausible?

Im not suggesting this is the answer but it is surely something that "could" be done, and isnt so far out of reality.

Ray Finkle
10-26-2010, 11:24 AM
Why wouldnt firing the headcoach and promoting someone already here to interim headcoach be plausible?

Im not suggesting this is the answer but it is surely something that "could" be done, and isnt so far out of reality.

correct, however, who are you going to select and what changes would need to be made. There really isn't someone on the staff that I would promote to HC right now.

Krugan
10-26-2010, 11:29 AM
correct, however, who are you going to select and what changes would need to be made. There really isn't someone on the staff that I would promote to HC right now.

Anyone really.

if we are talking about change for the sake of change, it becomes irrelevant at who takes that roll.

Assuming this team continues to spiral, the harm wouldnt be any more at any spot.

The changes, well thats a whole new ball of wax. How to do that mid season in this sport would be monumental. But could be done if things got out of hand.

Im not claiming to have the answers, never have.

I would prefer that we not become the team that revolves the door of coaching any more than we have been over the last 8 years...

SOCALORADO.
10-26-2010, 11:35 AM
I posted these 2 on the create a coaching staff thread (LOL!, right next to the create your own pizza thread!)

#1 get a real GM. Someone who knows football period. and has a history of success, but is still young, so he will stick with DEN for a while.
BALTIMORE RAVENS
VINCENT NEWSOME-DIRECTOR OF PRO PERSONNEL

Vincent Newsome is in his second year as the team’s director of pro personnel, following a promotion in 2009. Newsome oversees the team’s pro scouting efforts, including evaluating NFL free agent talent, providing the coaching staff with advance scouting reports of upcoming opponents and conducting free agent workouts throughout the year. He works closely with GM Ozzie Newsome in analyzing NFL rosters, reviewing the NFL waiver wire daily, and coordinating and evaluating each year’s free agency market. Newsome also works with VP of football administration Pat Moriarty in providing background on players, specificially to assess their talent level and decide a salary cap value. In 2008, he served on the eight-member committee to interview and select Ravens head coach John Harbaugh. Newsome originally joined the franchise’s personnel department in 1993, following a 10-year career as a safety in the NFL.
1996-2009: (with Baltimore) 2009: Was named the Ravens’ director of pro personnel in January...Assisted GM Ozzie Newsome in evaluating and acquiring free agents C Matt Birk (six-time Pro Bowler), RS Chris Carr, CB Domonique Foxworth and TE L.J. Smith. 2003-08: Was the team’s assistant director of pro personnel for six years, handling advance scouting of Ravens seasonal opponents, as well as evaluating talent in the CFL...Newsome conducted free agent workouts during the regular season and assisted the college scouting staff by evaluating college talent for the NFL Draft...Baltimore secured a number of key free agents, including threetime Pro Bowler Brendon Ayanbadejo and vital utility CB Frank Walker.

2000-02: Was the Ravens’ western college supervisor, covering players from California to Wisconsin.

1996-99: Became the Ravens’ West area scout upon the team’s move to Baltimore...Over the years, key acquisitions from Newsome’s scouting area have had success and are recognized leaguewide, including Pro Bowlers T Jonathan Ogden, CB Chris McAlister, TE Todd Heap and 2003 Defensive Rookie of the Year LB Terrell Suggs.

1993-95: (with Cleveland) Spent three years as a special assignment scout evaluating skill positions nationally...Joined the Browns’ personnel department after retiring from the NFL in the spring of 1993.

NFL Player: Was a standout safety for the Los Angeles Rams and Cleveland Browns...His 10-year career totals include 763 tackles (526 solo), four sacks, 62 PD, 17 INTs, seven FFs and nine FRs...Led the Rams in tackles his last two seasons...Was honored by his Rams teammates in 1989 with the Ed Block Courage Award...In 1985, was both the Rams’ Special Teams Player of the Year and a Sports Illustrated All-Pro as a safety...Was originally a fourth-round draft selection by the Rams in 1983.

College/Personal: Earned honorable mention All-America honors as a DB his senior year for the Huskies...Led the secondary with 69 tackles and recorded four INTs...Was president of Alpha Phi Alpha fraternity and majored in psychology... Vincent attended Vacaville (CA) HS, where he was a three-sport athlete (football, basketball and track)...Vincent and his wife, Tasha, have three daughters, Candace, Emerald and Victoria.

SOCALORADO.
10-26-2010, 11:38 AM
Or get Marty Shotenheimer to be GM.
Its easy, and hes an excellent evaluator of talent and knows how to run a team.
Plus Marty would take great effort to do everything in his power to personally
DESTROY the San Diego Sparklers every chance he got. And he would also like beating KC too, but not the way he would want to beat AJ Smith.

Northman
10-26-2010, 11:45 AM
Or get Marty Shotenheimer to be GM.
Its easy, and hes an excellent evaluator of talent and knows how to run a team.
Plus Marty would take great effort to do everything in his power to personally
DESTROY the San Diego Sparklers every chance he got. And he would also like beating KC too, but not the way he would want to beat AJ Smith.


I highly doubt that Shotty would want to help Denver do anything. We are his personal kryponite.

SOCALORADO.
10-26-2010, 11:50 AM
I highly doubt that Shotty would want to help Denver do anything. We are his personal kryponite.

Lets keep this positive, north.
Marty would LOVE the opportunity to be a true GM, and run ANY team.
He wants back into the NFL, and he has a vast amount of knowledge.
What could really make it a family affair is if his son became HC.
That could be a seriously evil combination.
Almost like having 2 HC's, who are working towards the same goal,
and are totally dedicated towards making good on the seniors long attempts at winning a SB.
Could be a great situation.

Northman
10-26-2010, 11:53 AM
Lets keep this positive, north.
Marty would LOVE the opportunity to be a true GM, and run ANY team.
He wants back into the NFL, and he has a vast amount of knowledge.
What could really make it a family affair is if his son became HC.
That could be a seriously evil combination.
Almost like having 2 HC's, who are working towards the same goal,
and are totally dedicated towards making good on the seniors long attempts at winning a SB.
Could be a great situation.


I just dont see what you see in him.

Dreadnought
10-26-2010, 12:26 PM
correct, however, who are you going to select and what changes would need to be made. There really isn't someone on the staff that I would promote to HC right now.

Agreed. No point in doing that; the season simply has to plkay out now. For immediate results? Mostly what Mike said. Shitcan the O-Line coach and scheme, try to get back to some sort of ZBS so we can generate a little bit of a running attack. Hire an honest to God GM and give him full personnel discretion. After the season is over more radical surgery is needed. Orton may or may not be part of long term plans, but he should start the rest of the way. This year will be a washout.

Oh, and cut Hochstein, Maroney, and Paxton, pronto. If only out of spite :D

rationalfan
10-26-2010, 12:39 PM
I think 75% of fans on this board are smarter than our front office by the way.

I know nothing except the fact of my ignorance. - Socrates

Superchop 7
10-26-2010, 12:58 PM
Fire Xanders and bring in an experienced GM would be 1. Telling McD that the new GM is running the organization with the final say on all decisions (including drafting) would be number 2.

I would look at bringing in a new offensive line coach and changing the blocking scheme. I would also look at bringing in a new ST coach.
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _

I have 2 seperate philosophies.

1- Is exactly yours as stated.

2- Bring back Rick Dennison as head coach.

I have a very high regard for Dennison, I have no doubt that our record would be better had we hired him. We would have kept the zone blocking scheme, so our running game would be intact. He certainly would have kept the Goodmans, so our drafts would be good. He was well respected by the players which is half the battle to begin with. In the end, he would have made sound, not radical decisions.

OrangeHoof
10-26-2010, 01:00 PM
First, do nothing to the organization before the end of the season. Mid-season changes are almost always desperate and ruinous.

Afterwards, if you feel the McDaniels experiment has failed, you fire him and look for another coach, hopefully one with a defensive background since our coaching staffs continually fail to build a solid defense.

Personnel changes would have to wait until a new regime is in place so we know what type of offense/defense we are running.

Personally, I don't think Bowlen will pull the trigger until after next year at the earliest.

NightTrainLayne
10-26-2010, 01:14 PM
I like Schottenheimer as a GM.

Pair him with Gruden as the Head Coach and steal Brian away from the Jets as asst. HC/OC, with the promise to move him to HC in the future when Gruden's done.

I don't think Brian's ready to be a HC yet. Gruden, is in love with Tebow as well, let's see if we can't get a proven HC in the door who is happy to work with our young, highly drafted QB instead of bringing in someone who will ship Tebow (and all we've already invested in him) off as well.

jhildebrand
10-26-2010, 01:24 PM
I just dont see what you see in him.

A guy who drafts very well. So well in fact he rebuilds teams in one to two seasons.

I doubt he cares the Broncos have been his kryptonite in the past. Money talks. He went to SD from KC. Besides, if you can't beat em join em!

I Eat Staples
10-26-2010, 04:12 PM
You don't have to leave the front office alone but the easy choice would "Fire McD and hire XXX" that's just not plausible. No good coach is going to come in mid stroke. You need to be creative and suggest fixes for this year and moving forward.


Not exactly. He's just placing the limitations that Bowlen has to work with.

Maybe I misunderstood, but anyway, I don't think fixing a team midseason is reasonable. If I were running (see McD, it's not spelled with an i!) this franchise, for the long-term I would:

- Fire Xanders and hire a new GM
- Fire McD and hire a new coach, and let that coach build a new coaching staff
- Trade Tebow for a 3rd or 4th round pick
- Sign Orton to a 3-year extension
- Make sure the draft focuses on defense with the first 3 picks, preferably a nose tackle, defensive end, and inside linebacker
- Draft a HB in the mid rounds
- Sign a free agent nose tackle; Jamal Williams hasn't done shit, and if we draft one, there's a steep learning curve. A veteran nose tackle for the rookie to learn from for a year or two is needed
- Sign some veteran help on our O-Line
- Sign a fullback (needed for more power sets with McD's spread offense being faded out)

More changes could be made, but I've got those off the top of my head.

Ravage!!!
10-26-2010, 05:05 PM
A guy who drafts very well. So well in fact he rebuilds teams in one to two seasons.

I doubt he cares the Broncos have been his kryptonite in the past. Money talks. He went to SD from KC. Besides, if you can't beat em join em!

Even if its not the "GM" role. Lets call it...a consultant.. if we have to. Someone hired for the personnel of the team. Not one that works with the number crunching and salary cap, but someone that can really see what a team needs, knows how to break down film and evaluate talent that... yes.. the GOODMANS (whom we hire back) have recommended. :beer:

topscribe
10-26-2010, 06:23 PM
* Fire Xanders, bring back Ted Sundquist. Give him true GM authority.

* Fire Barone. Bring in Dennison and restore the ZBS. The players aren't that far removed from it.

* Teach one-cut-and-run Turner had here with the RBs. Fire Studesville if necessary.

* Move Beadles back over to LG and Harris back into RT. Cut Hochstein.

* Instruct Demaryius Thomas to begin studying the TE position. He could be a superstar there.

* Move Larsen back to ILB. He never had the opportunity to show what he can really do there - which is considerable.

* Try out Richard Quinn at FB. He is a blocker. Let's see what he can do at FB. He hasn't shown up at TE.

* Bring in Tony Robbins to work with the athletes' psyche. He has changed athletes' careers.

* Go after Login Makins with everything we've got. He could be the difference between a mediocre and playoff season.

* A few other moves I haven't thought of . ..

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Dreadnought
10-26-2010, 06:35 PM
* Fire Xanders, bring back Ted Sundquist. Give him true GM authority.

* Fire Barone. Bring in Dennison and restore the ZBS. The players aren't that far removed from it.

* Teach one-cut-and-run Turner had here with the RBs. Fire Studesville if necessary.

* Move Beadles back over to LG and Harris back into RT. Cut Hochstein.

* Instruct Demaryius Thomas to begin studying the TE position. He could be a superstar there.

* Move Larsen back to ILB. He never had the opportunity to show what he can really do there - which is considerable.

* Try out Richard Quinn at FB. He is a blocker. Let's see what he can do at FB. He hasn't shown up at TE.

* Bring in Tony Robbins to work with the athletes' psyche. He has changed athletes' careers.

* Go after Login Makins with everything we've got. He could be the difference between a mediocre and playoff season.

* A few other moves I haven't thought of . ..

-----

Not sure I want Sundquist back, Top, but a lot of other good ideas there. How about bring back Tatum Bell and a few other has been RB's we had? Still upgrades over Maroney (you and I might be as well), and maybe Buckhalter at this stage of his career

Lancane
10-26-2010, 06:50 PM
Hmmm...

First Order of Business would be to fire Xanders and McDaniels, I wouldn't even give them a chance to object. I would then hire John Gruden to a one year interim contract with an automatic five year extension that started immediately after the 2010 season. At which point he would help me find the right General Manager, one he felt comfortable with overall.

I would also sign three or so free agent defensive backs and start running a 3-3-5 defense for at least the remainder of the season, if not beyond. I would also start using a dual quarterback offensive set for the most of the remainder of the season to really throw off defenses facing us, not knowing if the ball would be going to Orton or Tebow.

At least that would be a good start, if you can not beat them with the new offense and defense, use old school ones.

Dzone
10-26-2010, 07:17 PM
Fire Mcdaniels ASAP so that Dallas doesnt beat us out for the top coach...If we fire him now, we can have the pick of the litter! Come on Bowlen, pull the trigger and can Mcdaniels. The dude is a joke. (ok, sorry, I know this isnt what you asked for in this thread, but it may be the only way to save our team)

claymore
10-26-2010, 07:26 PM
Not sure I want Sundquist back, Top, but a lot of other good ideas there. How about bring back Tatum Bell and a few other has been RB's we had? Still upgrades over Maroney (you and I might be as well), and maybe Buckhalter at this stage of his career

I dont want Sundquist back. Id rather scrimp on coaches salaries and pay top talent evaluaters. Sundquist is a hack.

Northman
10-26-2010, 07:26 PM
I dont want Sundquist back. Id rather scrimp on coaches salaries and pay top talent evaluaters. Sundquist is a hack.

Agreed. Sundquist is a train wreck.

topscribe
10-26-2010, 07:27 PM
Not sure I want Sundquist back, Top, but a lot of other good ideas there. How about bring back Tatum Bell and a few other has been RB's we had? Still upgrades over Maroney (you and I might be as well), and maybe Buckhalter at this stage of his career

What I was going by was what Dave Mason said yesterday. He said that Shanahan
put the kabosh on a lot of Sunquist's ideas, that Sundquist never could fulfill his
capacity at GM. Finally, Sundquist became another of Shanahan's scapegoats.
In short, I got the impression that Sundquist never had a chance . . .

-----

Dzone
10-26-2010, 07:29 PM
Does anyone think D, Thomas was a better pick than Dez Bryant?...I mean, I like D. Thomas, he looks like he might be a good player, but has anyone noticed that Bryant is rookie of the year so far?

claymore
10-26-2010, 07:32 PM
What I was going by was what Dave Mason said yesterday. He said that Shanahan
put the kabosh on a lot of Sunquist's ideas, that Sundquist never could fulfill his
capacity at GM. Finally, Sundquist became another of Shanahan's scapegoats.
In short, I got the impression that Sundquist never had a chance . . .

-----

Mason says that, but we had a couple of the best drafts weve ever had right after he left.

I liked the goodmans alot better.

Northman
10-26-2010, 07:32 PM
Does anyone think D, Thomas was a better pick than Dez Bryant?...I mean, I like D. Thomas, he looks like he might be a good player, but has anyone noticed that Bryant is rookie of the year so far?

I was thinking about that last night. Bryant was on fire with 3 TD's, one being a punt return.

topscribe
10-26-2010, 07:33 PM
Mason says that, but we had a couple of the best drafts weve ever had right after he left.

I liked the goodmans alot better.

Mason said that the Goodmans would have stayed if Sundquist had anything to
do with it. And, remember, Shanahan had the last word in draft selections . . .

-----

Northman
10-26-2010, 07:33 PM
Mason says that, but we had a couple of the best drafts weve ever had right after he left.

I liked the goodmans alot better.


Yep. It was pretty clear shit got much better once his sorry ass was removed.

claymore
10-26-2010, 07:34 PM
Mason said that the Goodmans would have stayed if Sundquist had anything to do with it . . .

-----

The goodmans rise came after Sundquists firing. Or so I thought. THey were his replacement. ?????

topscribe
10-26-2010, 07:36 PM
The goodmans rise came after Sundquists firing. Or so I thought. THey were his replacement. ?????

They were in the field as talent scouts. At least, one of them was, IIRC.

At any rate, that's what Mason said . . .

-----

claymore
10-26-2010, 07:39 PM
They were in the field as talent scouts. At least, one of them was, IIRC.

At any rate, that's what Mason said . . .

-----

They wer the SEC scouts. I dont want to upset anyone, I just dont think highly of Ted.

topscribe
10-26-2010, 07:40 PM
They wer the SEC scouts. I dont want to upset anyone, I just dont think highly of Ted.

You're not upsetting anybody . . . me, anyway.

I'm just going by what Mason said. But you may be right about Sundquist. The
point is, the Broncos need a true GM and a HC who can concentrate exclusively on
coaching, IMO.

-----

Lancane
10-26-2010, 07:41 PM
They were in the field as talent scouts. At least, one of them was, IIRC.

At any rate, that's what Mason said . . .

-----

Jim Goodman was head of scouting (pro and collegiate) his son was a scout with the organization for a good number of years. Goodman was responsible for the drafting of several of the better athletes drafted in the last three drafts of Shanahan's tenure.

claymore
10-26-2010, 07:43 PM
You're not upsetting anybody . . . me, anyway.

I'm just going by what Mason said. But you may be right about Sundquist. The
point is, the Broncos need a true GM and a HC who can concentrate exclusively on
coaching, IMO.

-----

I agree a 100%.

rcsodak
10-26-2010, 10:10 PM
Alright, to avoid on the OM negativity, I thought I'd try and post this here....

Since everyone is smarter than the front office, let's see who can rationally fix the team.

You must work in the context of this current season (no firing McD and hiring Gruden, Cowher, etc). You can only sign players on the street or that are on other teams PS. No trades since the trading deadline has passed. What scheme changes, play changes, program changes would you make?


I'd hire Parcel as a consultant to Xanders.

I'll be boring.

After practice tomorrow, if I were McD I'd yell for everybody to clean up, and head over to the team buses. From there, they'd travel South on I25 to the Military Hospitals at either Colorado Springs or Ft Carson.
There, they would meet men/women who have bought in to the team, heart and soul; what they believe in.

Afterwards, with everybody loaded back on the buses, I'd ask everybody if THEY have bought into the team, heart and soul.

Furthermore, I'd say that Mr Bowlen also wants to know, so he's not wasting any money on players that don't want to be Denver Broncos.

Then send them home for the night.

Thursday, come practice time, it's GO-TIME.

Yea....I'm boring that way. :salute:

NightTrainLayne
10-26-2010, 11:47 PM
What I was going by was what Dave Mason said yesterday. He said that Shanahan
put the kabosh on a lot of Sunquist's ideas, that Sundquist never could fulfill his
capacity at GM. Finally, Sundquist became another of Shanahan's scapegoats.
In short, I got the impression that Sundquist never had a chance . . .

-----

Stephan Fatsis' book "A Few Seconds of Panic" says exactly the same thing.

Sundquist was always called a "yes man" on these boards, but between Fatsis' accounts, and other's as you have listed above, that it not true at all.

Still don't know that we want him back, but I'm not sure we ever really got to see him able to do his job the way he wanted to.

Ray Finkle
10-27-2010, 08:51 AM
Not sure I want Sundquist back, Top, but a lot of other good ideas there. How about bring back Tatum Bell and a few other has been RB's we had? Still upgrades over Maroney (you and I might be as well), and maybe Buckhalter at this stage of his career

Tatum? The RB who couldn't pick up a block?

topscribe
10-27-2010, 09:28 AM
Tatum? The RB who couldn't pick up a block?

Did you catch the last few games in 2008? Tatum averaged 5.7 YPC. and had 10
receptions over 7 games, also for a 5.7 average.

Yes, that Tatum . . .

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Ray Finkle
10-27-2010, 10:03 AM
Did you catch the last few games in 2008? Tatum averaged 5.7 YPC. and had 10
receptions over 7 games, also for a 5.7 average.

Yes, that Tatum . . .

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still doesn't mean he could pick up the blitz....that's why Anderson played so much. With the Oline issues they have now, Orton would be killed with cell phone manager Bell back there.

topscribe
10-27-2010, 10:05 AM
still doesn't mean he could pick up the blitz....that's why Anderson played so much. With the Oline issues they have now, Orton would be killed with cell phone manager Bell back there.

You're going clear back to the Mike Anderson days?

My question is, did you observe Tater in 2008? I was NOT a Tater fan back in the
Mike Anderson days, but he was an entirely different RB in 2008. That is what I'm
talking about and what Dread was alluding to.

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Ray Finkle
10-27-2010, 12:27 PM
You're going clear back to the Mike Anderson days?

My question is, did you observe Tater in 2008? I was NOT a Tater fan back in the
Mike Anderson days, but he was an entirely different RB in 2008. That is what I'm
talking about and what Dread was alluding to.

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yes but he still wouldn't help today even with his high YPC/YPA. Orton would be killed the first time he was in and expected to select the right defender to block.

topscribe
10-27-2010, 12:31 PM
yes but he still wouldn't help today even with his high YPC/YPA. Orton would be killed the first time he was in and expected to select the right defender to block.

Well, you may be right about the blocking aspect.

But if the Broncos don't get a running game going, Orton's going to get killed, anyway . . .

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Medford Bronco
10-27-2010, 09:04 PM
And what do you think Parcells would do at this point? More mentoring?

Nothing can save the season. We live and die with the choices that McD made going into it.

He might bring a better attitude than we have

Look at Miami before he was there. They were a mess and now they are a tough team to play against.

I would at least take that. Toughness. When was the last time we were tough 1998?

Bosco
10-27-2010, 11:17 PM
There's really not a whole lot you can do. Practically every problem on this team is the result of injuries and the trade deadline has passed plus there are no free agents out there who would be worthwhile upgrades.

All we can do this year is make the best out of a very bad situation and regroup in the offseason. There's a long list of changes I believe need to be made if there is football in 2011.

SOCALORADO.
10-28-2010, 08:02 AM
There's really not a whole lot you can do. Practically every problem on this team is the result of injuries and the trade deadline has passed plus there are no free agents out there who would be worthwhile upgrades.

All we can do this year is make the best out of a very bad situation and regroup in the offseason. There's a long list of changes I believe need to be made if there is football in 2011.

OK, you mental midgets!
Excercise!
Lets all do this.
List the changes that need to be made.
Give a hypothetical of what you think should be done.
Be specific. Make a mock FA and 2011 draft.
Pretend there is going to be football in 2011.
Fire who you wanna fire, and hire who you wanna hire.
"You make the call"

topscribe
10-28-2010, 01:07 PM
:cricket:

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SOCALORADO.
10-28-2010, 01:09 PM
:cricket:

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Yeah...seems no one wants to throw out there 2 cents as to how to actually fix the team.

topscribe
10-28-2010, 03:09 PM
Yeah...seems no one wants to throw out there 2 cents as to how to actually fix the team.

I did. :D

Of course, I said nothing about the draft. That's because I don't know anything
about the draft . . . oh, I would like to see the defense bolstered, namely, a LB
and a D-lineman or two . . .

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Jake Klug
10-28-2010, 03:34 PM
This is weird. Moves need to be made and heads need to roll.

I think we need to go back to the WCO and the ZBS. I also think Tebow could be especially effective being used the way Plummer used to be used in Denver. I actually think the old offense is better and suits Tebow better.

I would bring in a GM with those guidelines and same with the coach.

I dont know that the GM has to have absolute authority, but he definitely cant be the coach's assistant like we have now. I think Goodman could work. His drafts were stellar.

I like the 3-4, though. Id prefer to keep that.

SOCALORADO.
10-28-2010, 04:03 PM
I did. :D

Of course, I said nothing about the draft. That's because I don't know anything
about the draft . . . oh, I would like to see the defense bolstered, namely, a LB
and a D-lineman or two . . .

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Hows this?
1ST. Hire a GM. A real, day-to-day GM with complete and full control of the organization from the ground up. Its long overdue.

GM- Vincent Newsome (Current Employment-Baltimore Ravens, Director of Pro Personnel)Newsome currently oversees the Baltimore Ravens pro scouting efforts, including evaluating NFL free agent talent, providing the coaching staff with advance scouting reports of upcoming opponents and conducting free agent workouts throughout the year. He works closely with GM Ozzie Newsome in analyzing NFL rosters, reviewing the NFL waiver wire daily, and coordinating and evaluating each year’s free agency market. Newsome also works with VP of football administration Pat Moriarty in providing background on players, specificially to assess their talent level and decide a salary cap value. In 2008, he served on the eight-member committee to interview and select Ravens head coach John Harbaugh. Newsome originally joined the franchise’s personnel department in 1993, following a 10-year career as a safety in the NFL.

Fire Josh McDaniels. Great OC, but just not ready to run a pro team full time.
It was too early for him.

Hire John Gruden as HC.
DEN needs a swift kick in the @$$ and a serious change in attitude.
Gruden brings plenty of attitude and experience. He would bring back a serious run game, and he already has openly stated his admiration for Tim Tebow, a player DEN has invested a lot into.

Keep both Wink Martindale and Mike McCoy.
They both are young and have a ton of upside to develop as coordinators in DEN.
With better tutelage from a more experienced FO and HC, both could really come into their own and they already have a really solid knowledge of the current players.
Obviously this move would be dependant on if Gruden wanted to keep them, or if he already had his own guys in mind. It would ultimately be up to Gruden.

FA
ILB David Harris (NYJ)
One of DENs biggest areas of weakness is at LB. Face it, 3 of 4 of the current starters are just back-up scrubs. They suck.
Harris brings a big time, pro bowl, playmaker ability in the mold of Al Wilson to play next to DJ in the middle. And hes a leader, who will take over for Dawkins should he retire. Immediate, huge upgrade at ILB. The NYJ with all the FA $$$ they handed out this last offseason and with the other contracts they have to sign this offseason, will be hard pressed to keep Harris, who more than likely walks for bigger $$$.
OLB David Hawthorne (SEA)
Played at Pro Bowl levels in place of Tatupu last year, and he is just as good at OLB. Can play all over, and shouldnt have trouble adjusting to a 3-4. DEN needs some serious depth at LB, and having Hawthorne and Harris would be insane. SEA is absolutely loaded at LB, and so letting Hawthorne walk without a big fight, wouldnt suprise anyone. I personally think SEA will attempt to make a play for him before the seasons up, but theres a good chance Hawthorne will refuse knowing he can get a big payday in the offseason. DEN would have to spend some coin for both LBs, but it would be well worth the money. These 2 players along with a healthy Doom would completely rebuild the LB corps. I personally think that the secondary is in good shape (amazingly), and so really the D-line would be the only aspect to the defense that would still need to be addressed after paying these 2 LBs the bulk of DENs FA $$$. After these 2 in FA, there just isnt any real upgrades at LB, and DEN would be hard pressed to find players who will make an impact at the position.
A possible trade scenario could be with CAR. Fox might get canned, and they might feel that having 2 backs is a bit much, they might be open to trading one of their RBs. If DEN could swing a trade of their 2nd, 2nd rounder, it might be well worth it for a RB like Jonathan Stewart. Deangelo Williams will be a FA at the end of the season as well, so who knows. But thats a total crap shoot as of now. Just throwin it out there.

DRAFT
1ST RB MARK INGRAM, BAMA
2ND DE NICK FAIRLEY, AUBURN
2ND OG MARCUS CANNON, TCU
3RD NT PHIL TAYLOR, BAYLOR
6TH C/G COLIN BAXTER, ARIZONA
6TH TE/H-BACK MIKE MCNEIL, NEB

Jake Klug
10-28-2010, 04:07 PM
Hows this?
1ST. Hire a GM. A real, day-to-day GM with complete and full control of the organization from the ground up. Its long overdue.

GM- Vincent Newsome (Current Employment-Baltimore Ravens, Director of Pro Personnel)Newsome currently oversees the Baltimore Ravens pro scouting efforts, including evaluating NFL free agent talent, providing the coaching staff with advance scouting reports of upcoming opponents and conducting free agent workouts throughout the year. He works closely with GM Ozzie Newsome in analyzing NFL rosters, reviewing the NFL waiver wire daily, and coordinating and evaluating each year’s free agency market. Newsome also works with VP of football administration Pat Moriarty in providing background on players, specificially to assess their talent level and decide a salary cap value. In 2008, he served on the eight-member committee to interview and select Ravens head coach John Harbaugh. Newsome originally joined the franchise’s personnel department in 1993, following a 10-year career as a safety in the NFL.

Fire Josh McDaniels. Great OC, but just not ready to run a pro team full time.
It was too early for him.

Hire John Gruden as HC.
DEN needs a swift kick in the @$$ and a serious change in attitude.
Gruden brings plenty of attitude and experience. He would bring back a serious run game, and he already has openly stated his admiration for Tim Tebow, a player DEN has invested a lot into.

Keep both Wink Martindale and Mike McCoy.
They both are young and have a ton of upside to develop as coordinators in DEN.
With better tutelage from a more experienced FO and HC, both could really come into their own and they already have a really solid knowledge of the current players.
Obviously this move would be dependant on if Gruden wanted to keep them, or if he already had his own guys in mind. It would ultimately be up to Gruden.

FA
ILB David Harris (NYJ)
One of DENs biggest areas of weakness is at LB. Face it, 3 of 4 of the current starters are just back-up scrubs. They suck.
Harris brings a big time, pro bowl, playmaker ability in the mold of Al Wilson to play next to DJ in the middle. And hes a leader, who will take over for Dawkins should he retire. Immediate, huge upgrade at ILB. The NYJ with all the FA $$$ they handed out this last offseason and with the other contracts they have to sign this offseason, will be hard pressed to keep Harris, who more than likely walks for bigger $$$.
OLB David Hawthorne (SEA)
Played at Pro Bowl levels in place of Tatupu last year, and he is just as good at OLB. Can play all over, and shouldnt have trouble adjusting to a 3-4. DEN needs some serious depth at LB, and having Hawthorne and Harris would be insane. SEA is absolutely loaded at LB, and so letting Hawthorne walk without a big fight, wouldnt suprise anyone. I personally think SEA will attempt to make a play for him before the seasons up, but theres a good chance Hawthorne will refuse knowing he can get a big payday in the offseason. DEN would have to spend some coin for both LBs, but it would be well worth the money. These 2 players along with a healthy Doom would completely rebuild the LB corps. I personally think that the secondary is in good shape (amazingly), and so really the D-line would be the only aspect to the defense that would still need to be addressed after paying these 2 LBs the bulk of DENs FA $$$. After these 2 in FA, there just isnt any real upgrades at LB, and DEN would be hard pressed to find players who will make an impact at the position.
A possible trade scenario could be with CAR. Fox might get canned, and they might feel that having 2 backs is a bit much, they might be open to trading one of their RBs. If DEN could swing a trade of their 2nd, 2nd rounder, it might be well worth it for a RB like Jonathan Stewart. Deangelo Williams will be a FA at the end of the season as well, so who knows. But thats a total crap shoot as of now. Just throwin it out there.

DRAFT
1ST RB MARK INGRAM, BAMA
2ND DE NICK FAIRLEY, AUBURN
2ND OG MARCUS CANNON, TCU
3RD NT PHIL TAYLOR, BAYLOR
6TH C/G COLIN BAXTER, ARIZONA
6TH TE/H-BACK MIKE MCNEIL, NEB

Wow. Im automatically conditioned to see a pick like Mark Ingram and think "he'll never be there when we pick". This is strange to realize that we're on track to be in a position to draft someone like that.

Bosco
10-28-2010, 05:41 PM
Remember how I told people that one of the reasons Josh McDaniels was never accepted here was because he wasn't Mike Shanahan and they had equated him and his offense with Denver's identity?

To that, I submit, exhibit #395...


I think we need to go back to the WCO and the ZBS.

Ravage!!!
10-28-2010, 05:45 PM
Remember how I told people that one of the reasons Josh McDaniels was never accepted here was because he wasn't Mike Shanahan and they had equated him and his offense with Denver's identity?

To that, I submit, exhibit #395...

So you feel that your example PROVES your hypothesis right? How about reading the thread that actually discusses this very topic.

Not to mention, just because he has the opinion of wanting to GO BACk to what was here, has NOTHING to do with what you just stated as to why McD wasn't "accepted." Completely different discussions.

Jake Klug
10-28-2010, 05:46 PM
Remember how I told people that one of the reasons Josh McDaniels was never accepted here was because he wasn't Mike Shanahan and they had equated him and his offense with Denver's identity?

To that, I submit, exhibit #395...

So what. I dont get the significance of this observation.

Bosco
10-28-2010, 05:57 PM
So what. I dont get the significance of this observation.

I had a fairly long and elaborate post on this matter here awhile back. The basic gist of it is that after Shanahan was here for all those years many fans had trouble accepting or even objectively looking at the fact that his system was thrown out. They didn't see Josh McDaniels as the guy trying to build the team for his vision of success, they saw him as a terrorist destroying everything they held dear, even in some cases suggesting it was all an intentional plot by Belichick to destroy the team he could never beat.

Bottom line, people don't like change and much of the backlash against McDaniels was just emotional hysteria, and it's looking like you're in that same group.

Jake Klug
10-28-2010, 06:18 PM
I had a fairly long and elaborate post on this matter here awhile back. The basic gist of it is that after Shanahan was here for all those years many fans had trouble accepting or even objectively looking at the fact that his system was thrown out. They didn't see Josh McDaniels as the guy trying to build the team for his vision of success, they saw him as a terrorist destroying everything they held dear, even in some cases suggesting it was all an intentional plot by Belichick to destroy the team he could never beat.

Bottom line, people don't like change and much of the backlash against McDaniels was just emotional hysteria, and it's looking like you're in that same group.

Youre observation is/was contortionism at its best. First of all, its hard to prove either way. Its vague enough to attribute a number of things to this without really ever having credible correlation.

But also, you could just as easily say that his vision was not better nor was it necessary. A lot of people object to it because the change was unjustified because it was running in place at best.

Youre claiming to be objective by taking this juxtaposition. Youre lying to yourself. What you call being objective is really being a contrarian.

Bosco
10-28-2010, 06:27 PM
Youre observation is/was contortionism at its best. First of all, its hard to prove either way. Its vague enough to attribute a number of things to this without really ever having credible correlation. There is no contortion there at all. I can go dig through forum posts, newspaper op-ed pieces and the like to show where people are doing exactly what I'm saying.


But also, you could just as easily say that his vision was not better nor was it necessary. A lot of people object to it because the change was unjustified because it was running in place at best. Even if you ignore the fact that from 3 of the 4 years McDaniels ran New England's offense they completely destroyed Shanahan's effort here in Denver, that don't work for the people who were complaining from the second McDaniels was hired. The only factual basis they could have drawn from would have led them to the opposite assertion.

They might be right, but that doesn't mean they knew what they were talking about, only that they were lucky enough that some of their bullshit stuck.


Youre claiming to be objective by taking this juxtaposition. Youre lying to yourself. What you call being objective is really being a contrarian. I have no doubts about my ability to be objective. If you want to challenge me on that, be my guest, but being the guy who is blowing up a forum at 43 posts a day while going on irrational rants about Joe Ellis and questioning the fanhood of anyone who supports McDaniels is NOT going to put you in a winning position.

Jake Klug
10-28-2010, 06:35 PM
There is no contortion there at all. I can go dig through forum posts, newspaper op-ed pieces and the like to show where people are doing exactly what I'm saying.

Youre not some 19th century scientest creating genus types. Youre a contrarian. Get over yourself.



Even if you ignore the fact that from 3 of the 4 years McDaniels ran New England's offense they completely destroyed Shanahan's effort here in Denver, that don't work for the people who were complaining from the second McDaniels was hired. The only factual basis they could have drawn from would have led them to the opposite assertion.

Shanahan was in the process of completely turning over his roster during those years. The other problem with this observation is that its focused on the offense at the end of Shanahans tenure. Most Broncos fans who have fondness for Shanahan's offense like the earlier versions with a fullback and were less pass happy.


They might be right, but that doesn't mean they knew what they were talking about, only that they were lucky enough that some of their bullshit stuck.

Well, you talk about sticking. People defending the New England offense are equally unlucky that the running game is garbage, where the old offense was much more productive in the running game. Again, youre just a contrarian.


I have no doubts about my ability to be objective. If you want to challenge me on that, be my guest, but being the guy who is blowing up a forum at 43 posts a day while going on irrational rants about Joe Ellis and questioning the fanhood of anyone who supports McDaniels is NOT going to put you in a winning position.

Irrational? That means very little coming from a contrarian like you.

topscribe
10-28-2010, 07:12 PM
Hows this?


I hate it when people show me up . . . http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh256/AZDynamics/Smilies/thannoyed.gif

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Bosco
10-28-2010, 07:12 PM
Shanahan was in the process of completely turning over his roster during those years. And so is Josh McDaniels. Why was it seemingly understandable for you when Mike did it but not Josh?


The other problem with this observation is that its focused on the offense at the end of Shanahans tenure. Most Broncos fans who have fondness for Shanahan's offense like the earlier versions with a fullback and were less pass happy. So you're pining for an offense that is over a decade old and has been made obsolete by NFL rule changes favoring the pass game. Congrats.


Well, you talk about sticking. People defending the New England offense are equally unlucky that the running game is garbage, where the old offense was much more productive in the running game. Again, youre just a contrarian. And as unhappy as I am with the current running game, I am not worried. Even Josh McDaniels' pass oriented offenses have brought average at worst running games and was even top 5 in 2008.

You probably didn't realize that because your scope of knowledge is limited to an emotional reaction to our currently struggling run game.

Jake Klug
10-28-2010, 07:35 PM
And so is Josh McDaniels. Why was it seemingly understandable for you when Mike did it but not Josh?

So you're pining for an offense that is over a decade old and has been made obsolete by NFL rule changes favoring the pass game. Congrats.

Yes. It facilitated running and passing and continues to do so to this day.


And as unhappy as I am with the current running game, I am not worried. Even Josh McDaniels' pass oriented offenses have brought average at worst running games and was even top 5 in 2008.

The words of a contortionist: "Josh to the rescue."


You probably didn't realize that because your scope of knowledge is limited to an emotional reaction to our currently struggling run game.

See, this is the genesis of being a contrarian. It satisfies some desire you have to be snobbish. You think youre smart and others are stupid. Therein lies the need to be different than the others in the room. So, you take these contrarian/contortionist stances pretending to be "objective".

Like I said before, get over yourself.

Bosco
10-28-2010, 07:59 PM
Yes. It facilitated running and passing and continues to do so to this day. Not quite. Shanahan's WCO was a run first offense, which was a pretty drastic flip from the offenses Bill Walsh and the like ran. It was extremely effective in the late 90's and early 2000's but when the rules changed to focus on the pass, Shanahan failed to adjust.

I'm a huge fan of Shanahan's offense, but the NFL has changed and that offense is not as effective as it once was.


The words of a contortionist: "Josh to the rescue." You're right. You were definitely doing some contortion here.


See, this is the genesis of being a contrarian. It satisfies some desire you have to be snobbish. You think youre smart and others are stupid. Therein lies the need to be different than the others in the room. So, you take these contrarian/contortionist stances pretending to be "objective".

Like I said before, get over yourself. Well I'm clearly smarter than you (although to be fair you set the bar pretty damn low) but just what, pray tell, do I feel the need to be "different" about? I'd really love to hear you explain that.

Jake Klug
10-28-2010, 08:16 PM
Not quite. Shanahan's WCO was a run first offense, which was a pretty drastic flip from the offenses Bill Walsh and the like ran. It was extremely effective in the late 90's and early 2000's but when the rules changed to focus on the pass, Shanahan failed to adjust.

Im really not sure why you mentioned Bill Walsh since its not really even relevant. The offense became too pass happy, actually. Kubiak does a good job with this offense in Houston. It doesnt prevent Schaub from going off and its also been highly effective at running for them.



I'm a huge fan of Shanahan's offense, but the NFL has changed and that offense is not as effective as it once was.

I agree that the league has gone too far in making the league pass happy. Every rule involving safety ends up helping the passing game. There have been other rules that have been changed or emphasized that have also helped the passing game.

But having said that, New Orleans was pass happy in 2008. Drew Brees finished with over 5000 yards. The Saints finished 8-8. The next year, New Orleans made balance in their offense a point of emphasis. They were effective at running and they end up winning a lot of games including the super bowl. Balance, for them, was a big difference between going 8-8 as an extremely effective pass happy offense to a Super Bowl team.

Conversely, look at 2007 New England. People ooh and awe at all the points they scored. However, they went from averaging 37 ppg as a pass happy team during the regular season to averaging around 22 ppg in the playoffs. They had no running game (didnt even try) in the Super Bowl and as a result the Giants were able to tee off on a gimpy Tom Brady. They ended up scoring 14 points in the game that mattered most.


You're right. You were definitely doing some contortion here.

Indeed. Lets just blindly accept Josh because he's something different (because all these yahoos around here like Shanahan) and tailor things around the idea that Josh represents something superior. Thats essentially your position. Youre a contorsionist. Youre a contrarian. Nothing more.


Well I'm clearly smarter than you (although to be fair you set the bar pretty damn low) but just what, pray tell, do I feel the need to be "different" about? I'd really love to hear you explain that.

In the very same paragraph where you claim to be smarter, you actually have to ask this?

Edit-- BTW, its kind of amusing how you so easily come to the conclusion that its systems and not elite QBs that make the passing game work.

Also, since Elway retired, Shanahan's system has produced 3 different pro bowl QBs in Denver alone. And none of them were elite. It was 2000, 2005, and 2008. Notice how every part of the last decade is represented by a different pro-bowler playing under Shanahan. Matt Schaub was a pro-bowler in 2009, playing in the version of this system that uses a truer fullback. Schaub had 4,770 yards.

I Eat Staples
10-28-2010, 08:22 PM
Remember how I told people that one of the reasons Josh McDaniels was never accepted here was because he wasn't Mike Shanahan and they had equated him and his offense with Denver's identity?

To that, I submit, exhibit #395...

If so many people prefer the WCO and ZBS, then perhaps there is a good reason for that?

Bosco
10-28-2010, 09:43 PM
Im really not sure why you mentioned Bill Walsh since its not really even relevant. The offense became too pass happy, actually. Kubiak does a good job with this offense in Houston. It doesnt prevent Schaub from going off and its also been highly effective at running for them. I mentioned Bill Walsh since he is the proverbial grandfather of the WCO that Shanahan adopted. Mike Shanahan himself credits Walsh as his biggest influence on coaching style, yet he made a fairly significant departure from the norm of the WCO which was the original "pass happy" offense.


But having said that, New Orleans was pass happy in 2008. Drew Brees finished with over 5000 yards. The Saints finished 8-8. The next year, New Orleans made balance in their offense a point of emphasis. They were effective at running and they end up winning a lot of games including the super bowl. Balance, for them, was a big difference between going 8-8 as an extremely effective pass happy offense to a Super Bowl team. This is correct, however you have to remember that just like our current offense, their lack of running game was circumstance (injuries to all three of their running backs) and not by design, as you imply.


Conversely, look at 2007 New England. People ooh and awe at all the points they scored. However, they went from averaging 37 ppg as a pass happy team during the regular season to averaging around 22 ppg in the playoffs. They had no running game (didnt even try) in the Super Bowl and as a result the Giants were able to tee off on a gimpy Tom Brady. They ended up scoring 14 points in the game that mattered most.
You know what's funny is that their decline in scoring correlates exactly with their uptick in rushing yardage. Laurence Maroney had 120+ rushing yards in both playoff games and 150+ yards against Miami in week 16.

Even then, they were not as pass happy as people believe. They were 9th in rushing attempts, 13th in yardage and 5th in touchdowns. Conversely, they were only 5th in passing attempts. New Orleans, Detroit, Arizona and Seattle all passed more than they did that year.

As for the Super Bowl, that's been debated ad nauseum here. You're incorrect that they didn't try running the ball. They tried it, both out of spread formations and out of three tight end sets but with two injured linemen and a 3rd knocked out of the game they simply could not get the blocking to do it. The passing game was the only thing that was even remotely working so they stuck with it.


Indeed. Lets just blindly accept Josh because he's something different (because all these yahoos around here like Shanahan) and tailor things around the idea that Josh represents something superior. Thats essentially your position. Youre a contorsionist. Youre a contrarian. Nothing more. See, this is where you wrong and where your assumptions make you look stupid. Being that I have Boston roots I've followed the Patriots for many years (including every year under Belichick) and they are more or less my 2nd favorite team behind the Broncos. I also have every game of theirs from when Josh McDaniels ran the offense and have studied his offense pretty intensively. I could have told you the basic concepts of his offense before 95% of Bronco fans even had a clue who Josh McDaniels was, and he was my number one choice to replace Shanahan as our head coach. Long story short, I'm about as far from the stereotypical fanboy you try to portray me as.


In the very same paragraph where you claim to be smarter, you actually have to ask this? I think it's a pretty simple question. A contrarian is someone who takes an opposing side just for the sake of opposition, but where does that apply to me? Do you think I'd shift my allegiance on McDaniels if all the sudden everyone in the fan base started to love him again?

I think you can stop pulling your talking points out of your ass now.


Edit-- BTW, its kind of amusing how you so easily come to the conclusion that its systems and not elite QBs that make the passing game work. It's a perfectly valid conclusion. Kyle Orton was a legitimate Heisman candidate his junior year at Purdue in Joe Tiller's spread offense, was average in Chicago's run first offense and now looks borderline elite back in the spread offense. Tom Brady's transition from above average game manager to elite quarterback coincides with McDaniels taking the reigns in New England and implementing the spread offense. Dree Brees was pretty average until he came to New Orleans where Sean Payton runs a spread offense very similar to McDaniels. Warren Moon made himself a Hall of Famer playing in the old Run n' Shoot spread, an offense that still results in excellent production out of it's quarterbacks in the few places it is still used. Alex Smith made himself a 1st rounder and Tim Tebow became arguably the greatest college player ever in Urban Meyer's spread offense.

I could go on, but you get the point.


Also, since Elway retired, Shanahan's system has produced 3 different pro bowl QBs in Denver alone. And none of them were elite. It was 2000, 2005, and 2008. Notice how every part of the last decade is represented by a different pro-bowler playing under Shanahan. Matt Schaub was a pro-bowler in 2009, playing in the version of this system that uses a truer fullback. Schaub had 4,770 yards. I don't see what your point is here. If it's that Shanahan and Kubiak are very good offensive minds who do well at developing quarterbacks, you'll get no argument from me there.

Jake Klug
10-28-2010, 10:30 PM
I mentioned Bill Walsh since he is the proverbial grandfather of the WCO that Shanahan adopted. Mike Shanahan himself credits Walsh as his biggest influence on coaching style, yet he made a fairly significant departure from the norm of the WCO which was the original "pass happy" offense.

I still dont see the point other than Shanahan utilized the running game to great effect and achieved balance in the process.


This is correct, however you have to remember that just like our current offense, their lack of running game was circumstance (injuries to all three of their running backs) and not by design, as you imply.

Pierre Thomas played in 15 games that year. Deuce McAllister played in 13.


You know what's funny is that their decline in scoring correlates exactly with their uptick in rushing yardage. Laurence Maroney had 120+ rushing yards in both playoff games and 150+ yards against Miami in week 16.

Not really. Later in the season New England realized being one dimensional against some of the defenses in the playoffs would be bad. But in the end, ie the Super Bowl, they couldnt escape being the pass happy team they had been the vast majority of the season. Thats who they were.





Even then, they were not as pass happy as people believe. They were 9th in rushing attempts, 13th in yardage and 5th in touchdowns. Conversely, they were only 5th in passing attempts. New Orleans, Detroit, Arizona and Seattle all passed more than they did that year.

This is skewed because of the number of lopsided scores. If you an conver 3rd downs passing, youll hold onto the ball more and have more runs. If you amass a big lead by passing, youll be in a position to run more.


As for the Super Bowl, that's been debated ad nauseum here. You're incorrect that they didn't try running the ball. They tried it, both out of spread formations and out of three tight end sets but with two injured linemen and a 3rd knocked out of the game they simply could not get the blocking to do it. The passing game was the only thing that was even remotely working so they stuck with it.

They had 16 carries and 48 passes. They were only averaging 5-6 yards per pass. So, one could also say that they couldnt pass. The reason they passed was because thats what they were.


See, this is where you wrong and where your assumptions make you look stupid. Being that I have Boston roots I've followed the Patriots for many years (including every year under Belichick) and they are more or less my 2nd favorite team behind the Broncos. I also have every game of theirs from when Josh McDaniels ran the offense and have studied his offense pretty intensively. I could have told you the basic concepts of his offense before 95% of Bronco fans even had a clue who Josh McDaniels was, and he was my number one choice to replace Shanahan as our head coach. Long story short, I'm about as far from the stereotypical fanboy you try to portray me as.

You probably shouldnt have admitted this. It explains a lot. If you would have just admitted to being a closet m*sshole from the beginning, youd save everyone a bunch of time. Youd be foregoing this pretense of being unbiased, but its not like you still have that anyway. Its funny how in the same paragraph that you admit to being a closet m*sshole and intently studying Josh McDaniels career arc, you try to claim that youre not a stereotypical fanboy. Amazing.


I think it's a pretty simple question. A contrarian is someone who takes an opposing side just for the sake of opposition, but where does that apply to me? Do you think I'd shift my allegiance on McDaniels if all the sudden everyone in the fan base started to love him again?

Things have changed somewhat now that you have revealed youre a closet m*sshole. But to answer your question, it still ties in to this need to feel like youre smarter than everyone else. If people supported McDaniels, you could go two ways with it. You could latch on to the next thing that you want to be a hipster with or you can look at it like everyone is coming under your tent, in which case it would be massaging your ego. I dont know what you would do.


I think you can stop pulling your talking points out of your ass now.

I should say the same to you. Pretty much everything you have said has been debunked as far as superiority of systems go. There is a bigger body of work for Shanahan's system being both QB friendly and producing a running game. You still havent established that its Josh's system more than its Brady.



It's a perfectly valid conclusion. Kyle Orton was a legitimate Heisman candidate his junior year at Purdue in Joe Tiller's spread offense, was average in Chicago's run first offense and now looks borderline elite back in the spread offense. Tom Brady's transition from above average game manager to elite quarterback coincides with McDaniels taking the reigns in New England and implementing the spread offense. Dree Brees was pretty average until he came to New Orleans where Sean Payton runs a spread offense very similar to McDaniels. Warren Moon made himself a Hall of Famer playing in the old Run n' Shoot spread, an offense that still results in excellent production out of it's quarterbacks in the few places it is still used. Alex Smith made himself a 1st rounder and Tim Tebow became arguably the greatest college player ever in Urban Meyer's spread offense.

Tom Brady became more than a game manager soon after they won the super bowl. I like how you realize that Shanahan's offense has produced 4 different NFL QBs that werent elite and made them pro-bowlers during every part of the last decade and you realize the same cant be said for McDaniels system and so you try to glom on to all these other offenses even including college offenses. LOL. Sorry but we're not talking about college.

But since you bring up the Saints, in Paytons first year, they were 1st in yards and 5th in points. If its the system and its the same as New Englands, why is New Orleans more user friendly? And why are all the McDaniels apologists using "he needs time to implement his system" as an excuse?



I could go on, but you get the point.

Yeah, OK. LOL


I don't see what your point is here. If it's that Shanahan and Kubiak are very good offensive minds who do well at developing quarterbacks, you'll get no argument from me there.

You said that one system is superior to the other. You said Shanahan's system is outdated. But over the past 10 years, 2 versions of that system have produced 4 different probowlers spread over the decade. Sorry but theres more to suggest that system is better for passing and running. Not one of those pro-bowlers are what one would consider elite QBs. Meanwhile Josh's system and even Paytons system (which you alledge is the same) have Brady and Brees. Whats not to understand? This pretty much debunks anything you have to say about the old system being inferior or outdated.

Bosco
10-28-2010, 11:16 PM
Wow dude. You really are batshit crazy. I think it's official that we can place you in the "troll not worth debating" box. :lol:

Ray Finkle
10-29-2010, 07:43 AM
He might bring a better attitude than we have

Look at Miami before he was there. They were a mess and now they are a tough team to play against.

I would at least take that. Toughness. When was the last time we were tough 1998?

That's one thing Parcel's always brings. He only stays at each place for a few years anyway, I think he'd be ideal.

Lonestar
10-29-2010, 08:49 AM
I just dont see what you see in him.

Marty is a good coach with a winning record except where it counts in the playoffs.

His teams have chiked more in the plays than anyones and it just is not the personnel as he has done it in CLE, KC and SAN.

In fact they have a name for it Marty Ball.

I'll pass on anyone named marty or sired by him.
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Lonestar
10-29-2010, 09:07 AM
You're not upsetting anybody . . . me, anyway.

I'm just going by what Mason said. But you may be right about Sundquist. The
point is, the Broncos need a true GM and a HC who can concentrate exclusively on
coaching, IMO.

-----

So Josh is gm now I did not get the memo. Or see the announcement in the paper.

While many believe that Xman is a puppet. Sounds to me that he is in charge of the scouts and player aquistions and does the heavy lifting in the contracts.area.

Does Josh have a say in what is going on sure. But you would not want a gm that is bringing players the coach does not like. Ala KC and SAN.
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Jake Klug
10-29-2010, 09:07 AM
Wow dude. You really are batshit crazy. I think it's official that we can place you in the "troll not worth debating" box. :lol:

Yeah and you being a propaganda monger with his ready made empty rhetoric isnt. Sure. Thats fine with me.

Lonestar
10-29-2010, 09:31 AM
Tatum? The RB who couldn't pick up a block?

No tater the guy that got the team great deals on blackberries and carried the team luggage.
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Lonestar
10-29-2010, 09:35 AM
He might bring a better attitude than we have

Look at Miami before he was there. They were a mess and now they are a tough team to play against.

I would at least take that. Toughness. When was the last time we were tough 1998?

When the orange crush bunch were running rampant on D. Late 70's
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Lonestar
10-29-2010, 10:05 AM
Remember how I told people that one of the reasons Josh McDaniels was never accepted here was because he wasn't Mike Shanahan and they had equated him and his offense with Denver's identity?

To that, I submit, exhibit #395...

ZBS was a great scheme with TD and our oline. But then was also when it was a novelty. No one that has run it since has went to the superbowl.

It is no longer unique especially inside the 10. I vote no on zbs.
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Lonestar
10-29-2010, 10:10 AM
I had a fairly long and elaborate post on this matter here awhile back. The basic gist of it is that after Shanahan was here for all those years many fans had trouble accepting or even objectively looking at the fact that his system was thrown out. They didn't see Josh McDaniels as the guy trying to build the team for his vision of success, they saw him as a terrorist destroying everything they held dear, even in some cases suggesting it was all an intentional plot by Belichick to destroy the team he could never beat.

Bottom line, people don't like change and much of the backlash against McDaniels was just emotional hysteria, and it's looking like you're in that same group.

You hit the nail on the head with this one.

Great post.
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Ravage!!!
10-29-2010, 10:10 AM
ZBS was a great scheme with TD and our oline. But then was also when it was a novelty. No one that has run it since has went to the superbowl.

It is no longer unique especially inside the 10. I vote no on zbs.
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No one that has run McD's offensive system has won the Super Bowl.... I vote NO on the McD offensive system. It can't score inside the 10 yrd line either.

Ravage!!!
10-29-2010, 10:13 AM
Does Josh have a say in what is going on sure. But you would not want a gm that is bringing players the coach does not like. Ala KC and SAN.
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Interesting. One team has won the AFC for the last number of years, and the second has grown better than we are after getting said GM. :lol:

I'll take the GM that brings in players, please. :elefant:

TXBRONC
10-29-2010, 10:21 AM
So you feel that your example PROVES your hypothesis right? How about reading the thread that actually discusses this very topic.

Not to mention, just because he has the opinion of wanting to GO BACk to what was here, has NOTHING to do with what you just stated as to why McD wasn't "accepted." Completely different discussions.

For the vast majority of those who criticized McDaniels it has NOTHING to do with Shanahan it has to do with McDaniels' mistakes. To keep going after other posters for it deflects from the here and the now.
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KCL
10-29-2010, 01:50 PM
Fix the team..maybe bribe Scott Pioli to start drafting for Denver...;)
He's done a pretty decent job is KC.

topscribe
10-29-2010, 02:05 PM
So Josh is gm now I did not get the memo. Or see the announcement in the paper.

While many believe that Xman is a puppet. Sounds to me that he is in charge of the scouts and player aquistions and does the heavy lifting in the contracts.area.

Does Josh have a say in what is going on sure. But you would not want a gm that is bringing players the coach does not like. Ala KC and SAN.
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It just seems to me, viewing from the outside, that McD has taken over.

But maybe I'm wrong . . .

-----

Northman
10-29-2010, 02:07 PM
For the vast majority of those who criticized McDaniels it has NOTHING to do with Shanahan it has to do with McDaniels' mistakes. To keep going after other posters for it deflects from the here and the now.
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POST OF THE ******* YEAR.


So much deflection its not even funny.

Dzone
10-29-2010, 04:48 PM
Aaron Maybin may be available...Hes the worst LB on the worst defense in the NFL...He might be able to compete for a job here...

Bosco
10-29-2010, 05:01 PM
Aaron Maybin may be available...Hes the worst LB on the worst defense in the NFL...He might be able to compete for a job here...

Only if they cut him.