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View Full Version : Ellis, Bowlen refusing to comment..Only SILENCE



Traveler
10-26-2010, 08:11 AM
Wonder if we should read anything into this? The bolded/underlined portion speaks volumes. Could be the beginning of the end IMO.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ellis joins Broncos owner Bowlen in refusing to comment after giant defeat
By Mike Klis
The Denver Post

From behind the largest desks at Dove Valley, there is silence.

Broncos owner Pat Bowlen and his right-hand man, Joe Ellis, are well aware of the uproar stirring from the team's fan base after the 59-14 pasting Denver received Sunday from the rival Oakland Raiders.

Much of the fan's discontent is directed at Broncos coach Josh McDaniels. Since a 6-0 start in his coaching tenure, the Broncos have lost 13 of their past 17 games.

They are 2-5 this season heading into Sunday's game against the 1-6 San Francisco 49ers in London.

After the debacle Sunday, Bowlen declined comment as he walked through the empty home locker room at Invesco Field at Mile High. Bowlen has been increasingly deferring public statement to Ellis in the past nine months or so.

But Ellis also declined a Denver Post request for comment Monday.

Perhaps Bowlen and Ellis understand no matter what they say, their words would only inflame the raw emotions that exist after the Broncos' historic blowout loss to their most detested rival.

The 59 points were the most scored by the Raiders in their 51-season history and tied for the most allowed by the Broncos.

Where McDaniels has experienced his greatest struggle is in home games against AFC West opponents.

He is 0-4, including such lopsided defeats as 32-3 to San Diego, 44-24 to then 3-12 Kansas City and now 59-14 to the Raiders, who haven't won more than five games in a season since 2002.

The Broncos will resume practice today. They will fly to London after practice Thursday.

Read more: Ellis joins Broncos owner Bowlen in refusing to comment after giant defeat - The Denver Post http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_16433412#ixzz13TBnz8th

BroncoNut
10-26-2010, 08:30 AM
worst coach ever

sneakers
10-26-2010, 08:31 AM
I think they mean it is a non-issue....saying anything would just throw fuel on the fire.

SOCALORADO.
10-26-2010, 08:39 AM
I think they mean it is a non-issue....saying anything would just throw fuel on the fire.
Meanwhile..........
http://carrollwood2.tbo.com/exposure/ar/659/372/2010/03/04/36022_tebow-1.jpg

BroncoNut
10-26-2010, 08:42 AM
Gruden you think?

SOCALORADO.
10-26-2010, 08:42 AM
Gruden you think?

http://assets.espn.go.com/media/motion/2010/0413/dm_100413_nfl_gruden_tebow.jpg

UnderArmour
10-26-2010, 09:14 AM
Shit, I don't blame them. I don't even know what to say about this loss, it was painful beyond words. I wish I had just turned off my TV, but I kept watching. There is good reason most of the players left the building immediately after the loss. The bye week really can't come fast enough right now, maybe we can steal a win from San Fransisco but things look bleak right now.

Mike
10-26-2010, 09:15 AM
Possibly the biggest game of McDs coaching career this week.

Lonestar
10-26-2010, 09:21 AM
Omg another throw the coaches under the bus thread. That started as a flame report in the DP.

It is a none issue till the end of season. That is unless the players quit on the coach.
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Northman
10-26-2010, 09:23 AM
Shit, I don't blame them. I don't even know what to say about this loss, it was painful beyond words. I wish I had just turned off my TV, but I kept watching. There is good reason most of the players left the building immediately after the loss. The bye week really can't come fast enough right now, maybe we can steal a win from San Fransisco but things look bleak right now.


Bye week? Thats like Denver's kryptonite. :lol:

broncofaninfla
10-26-2010, 09:24 AM
The fact they aren't coming out publically and supporting Mcd is telling. I hope Mcd turns it around big this week but it will have to be a full 180 from where we are headed.

Northman
10-26-2010, 09:26 AM
The fact they aren't coming out publically and supporting Mcd is telling. I hope Mcd turns it around big this week but it will have to be a full 180 from where we are headed.

Pretty much how it see it. Either Bowlen doesnt want to fire McD out of emotion or he's sending a message to McD to right the ship or there will be hell to pay.

Dreadnought
10-26-2010, 09:31 AM
Possibly the biggest game of McDs coaching career this week.

Mike, we already played it, on 10/24/10. The results are already in.

Shazam!
10-26-2010, 09:47 AM
Either Bowlen doesnt want to fire McD out of emotion or he's sending a message to McD to right the ship or there will be hell to pay.

You hit it on the head North.

Barring an incredible turnaround, McDaniels is toast.

Mike
10-26-2010, 09:51 AM
Mike, we already played it, on 10/24/10. The results are already in.

No, if I am Bowlen that game sends up flags. But how the team responds this week gives me the course I would take with the GM and Coach.

Don't get me wrong. I am done with McD. Even a victory this week won't change that. But I don't have $$ invested in him, so I think Bowlen will be more cautious in how he handles it.

IMO, this game will show us a lot about McD and how the players feel about him.

broncophan
10-26-2010, 09:55 AM
Bowlen never has much to say anyhow.....so I don't read a whole lot into this...

Shazam!
10-26-2010, 09:55 AM
If Denver gets humiliated on an international stage on Sunday, he may get fired.

Dreadnought
10-26-2010, 09:58 AM
No, if I am Bowlen that game sends up flags. But how the team responds this week gives me the course I would take with the GM and Coach.

Don't get me wrong. I am done with McD. Even a victory this week won't change that. But I don't have $$ invested in him, so I think Bowlen will be more cautious in how he handles it.

IMO, this game will show us a lot about McD and how the players feel about him.

To me the games that sent up the flags were last years weak home loss to the Raiders, and, even more so, the Chiefs. Those were the warning signs.

The loss to the Raiders simply cements and confirms the fact that we are no longer a competitive football team under this regime

slim
10-26-2010, 09:58 AM
What can Bowlen say?

If anything, he should fire himself and/or Ellis. How the hell did they NOT separate GM duties from coaching after shanny left? He gave a rookie coach way too much power/responsibility...that is on him.

broncophan
10-26-2010, 09:59 AM
To me the games that sent up the flags were last years weak home loss to the Raiders, and, even more so, the Chiefs. Those were the warning signs.

The loss to the Raiders simply cements and confirms the fact that we are no longer a competitive football team under this regime

then why were we competitive against the jets the week before???

Ravage!!!
10-26-2010, 09:59 AM
I'm going to quote myself from the other thread that talked about this, only because I don't want to type it again:

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I think it means that Bowlen isn't happy, and knows from experience, that you don't give interviews when you are too emotionally charged. He never throws his coaches under the bus, and isn't going to start bad-mouthing them to the media when he's upset. Rather, he's going to let things play out for a little bit, and later will give an interview once the emotions have leveled out, and the fan's emotions aren't on the peak.

When he does give the interview, I promise you right now that no matter HOW he feels, he'll give the glowing support of an owner that stands firmly behind his coach. He'll say that he is NOT happy with how the season is going, BUT, has all the confidence in the world that this coaching staff is working hard on righting the ship.

He'll use all the right words, say all the perfect cliche's, because thats how Bowlen is. He won't let anyone, outside his confident circle, know of any feelings that he may be dissatisfied with his coach.

rcsodak
10-26-2010, 10:01 AM
LMAO! No matter what was/wasnt said, it would have still come across as a 'death meld' for McD.
Its kneejerk to suggest firing McD midstream in his 2nd yr. This isnt basketball/hockey/baseball. Its too shorrt of season.
Peter King this morning said anybody saying this is all on McD is wrong. Called cutler "an immature 9 yr old child" who after bowlen reached out to him, ignored him and that was the final straw. That Orton has outplayed him. Hillis-mistake. Smith-mistake.
In other words, yes he's struggling. But its not time to give up. He thinks a 3rd yr should be warranted.
BTW, no McD this am, but I assume thats because of the screwedup practice schedule.
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Dzone
10-26-2010, 10:03 AM
What a contrast with Jerry Jones, who loves being in the media every day. Bowlen seems like a recluse. I hope dallas doesnt get cowher or gruden before mcdaniels gets the ax...This team ultimately belongs to the fans, who have every right to voice their disappointment with this coach. Of course there are those who have undying love for Mcdaniels, but they shouldnt hate those who are not Mcdaniels lovers

Dreadnought
10-26-2010, 10:03 AM
LMAO! No matter what was/wasnt said, it would have still come across as a 'death meld' for McD.
Its kneejerk to suggest firing McD midstream in his 2nd yr. This isnt basketball/hockey/baseball. Its too shorrt of season.
Peter King this morning said anybody saying this is all on McD is wrong. Called cutler "an immature 9 yr old child" who after bowlen reached out to him, ignored him and that was the final straw. That Orton has outplayed him. Hillis-mistake. Smith-mistake.
In other words, yes he's struggling. But its not time to give up. He thinks a 3rd yr should be warranted.
BTW, no McD this am, but I assume thats because of the screwedup practice schedule.
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Cutler, Hillis, et al. are off topic. They were not on the roster that lost 59-14 to the Raiders two days ago.

slim
10-26-2010, 10:06 AM
What a contrast with Jerry Jones, who loves being in the media every day. Bowlen seems like a recluse. I hope dallas doesnt get cowher or gruden before mcdaniels gets the ax...This team ultimately belongs to the fans, who have every right to voice their disappointment with this coach. Of course there are those who have undying love for Mcdaniels, but they shouldnt hate those who are not Mcdaniels lovers

If Wade gets fired, they will give the job to Jason Garrett. At least I think he would be the front-runner.

I hope Wade does get fired. He is an great DC (and we could use one).

Dreadnought
10-26-2010, 10:07 AM
If Wade gets fired, they will give the job to Jason Garrett. At least I think he would be the front-runner.

I hope Wade does get fired. He is an great DC (and we could use one).

Agreed. Did he ever work for the Patriots though? I don't think so.

slim
10-26-2010, 10:09 AM
Agreed. Did he ever work for the Patriots though? I don't think so.

Well, I am assuming that there are changes coming before next season :listen:

SOCALORADO.
10-26-2010, 10:10 AM
http://espnmediazone3.com/rs/filestore/1/9/9/7/2_2d95e76e448d19b/19972scr_2c45797e31a21b9.jpg?v=2010-03-09+13%3A44%3A28

Dreadnought
10-26-2010, 10:11 AM
Well, I am assuming that there are changes coming before next season :listen:

If/when that blessed day comes I never again want to see any ex-Patriots in a Bronco uniform, Slim. Even Tom Brady would give me pause. I have been scarred forever.

Ravage!!!
10-26-2010, 10:12 AM
If Wade gets fired, they will give the job to Jason Garrett. At least I think he would be the front-runner.

I hope Wade does get fired. He is an great DC (and we could use one).

I think he'll be a runner, but I bet he goes for a big name. A guy that comes with clout and respect that can discipline his team. I don't know if Cowher would be interested (especially since he's so close to the pittsburgh fans)....but I'm betting that Jerry Jones makes him an offer that would be VERY hard to ignore.

slim
10-26-2010, 10:13 AM
If/when that blessed day comes I never again want to see any ex-Patriots in a Bronco uniform, Slim. Even Tom Brady would give me pause. I have been scarred forever.

Agreed.

Also, if they don't hire a GM first and a coach second, I will go nuclear.

Ravage!!!
10-26-2010, 10:14 AM
Cutler, Hillis, et al. are off topic. They were not on the roster that lost 59-14 to the Raiders two days ago.

Yeah.. but that wouldn't help him reach his quota of the day.

Northman
10-26-2010, 10:18 AM
What can Bowlen say?

If anything, he should fire himself and/or Ellis. How the hell did they NOT separate GM duties from coaching after shanny left? He gave a rookie coach way too much power/responsibility...that is on him.

Very true. I hold Bowlen as equally responsible. Damn gutless drunk!

Northman
10-26-2010, 10:19 AM
then why were we competitive against the jets the week before???

Thats like asking why were we competitive in games with Shanahan as HC. Mediocrity is mediocrity no matter how you spice it up. Right now, we arent even mediocre.

BigDaddyBronco
10-26-2010, 10:23 AM
Very true. I hold Bowlen as equally responsible. Damn gutless drunk!

I hold Bowlen responsible for this system of having an all-powerful HC and not much else in the front office. We have drafted like shyt for years and haven't had very good assistant coaches. Bowlen isn't going to Al Davis levels of cheap, but he is closer to him than most.

Northman
10-26-2010, 10:23 AM
Cutler, Hillis, et al. are off topic. They were not on the roster that lost 59-14 to the Raiders two days ago.

Funny now that works huh? Nope. All McD players and they all stunk it up under that dipshit of a HC.

slim
10-26-2010, 10:26 AM
I think he'll be a runner, but I bet he goes for a big name. A guy that comes with clout and respect that can discipline his team. I don't know if Cowher would be interested (especially since he's so close to the pittsburgh fans)....but I'm betting that Jerry Jones makes him an offer that would be VERY hard to ignore.

Yeah, maybe. But that would kind of go against his track record (as far as hiring coaches). I think the only big name he has brought in was Parcels.

Lonestar
10-26-2010, 10:27 AM
To me the games that sent up the flags were last years weak home loss to the Raiders, and, even more so, the Chiefs. Those were the warning signs.

The loss to the Raiders simply cements and confirms the fact that we are no longer a competitive football team under this regime

Just bet your happy as can be along with all the other non fans of Josh.

Face the fact that many hated hiim from day one because he was from NE.
Many hated him because mike was fire and no one could ever replace his grace.

Many hated him because he did not keep the playbook and only fix the D

Others thought jay walked on water and orton was trash.

Now its pile on time for every one of you.

I'll be LMAO when he is the coach the next 5 years knowing that Y'all got on the wagon grudgingly.
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TXBRONC
10-26-2010, 10:30 AM
Meanwhile..........
http://carrollwood2.tbo.com/exposure/ar/659/372/2010/03/04/36022_tebow-1.jpg

I don't think it's a non-issue but I also don't think anything atm it could mean something by the end of the year.
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Dreadnought
10-26-2010, 10:31 AM
Just bet your happy as can be along with all the other non fans of Josh.

Face the fact that many hated hiim from day one because he was from NE.
Many hated him because mike was fire and no one could ever replace his grace.

Many hated him because he did not keep the playbook and only fix the D

Others thought jay walked on water and orton was trash.

Now its pile on time for every one of you.

I'll be LMAO when he is the coach the next 5 years knowing that Y'all got on the wagon grudgingly.
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Rubbish

rcsodak
10-26-2010, 10:32 AM
Guys on Sirius have said with both gruden/cowher that they'd expect FULL REIGN! Just an FYI.
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jhildebrand
10-26-2010, 10:33 AM
Getting back to reality and back on track, I don't think you can read much into the silence. That is Pat's way. He makes his decisions and then steps back and let's the people he hired do the job the way they see fit. This is no different than the silence with Marshall, Scheffler and Hillis and the majority of the Cutler situation.

I admire Bowlen for that and for not mettling. That is part of what makes him a great owner.

However, I will say if I were Joe Ellis, I would be a bit concerned. Bowlen does want the NE way and did want to save some money. That much has been reported. Problem is he may lose much more money than he imagined with the current direction the team is headed. At a minimum, if a change is made I wouldn't be so certain that Ellis gets to stick around.

Northman
10-26-2010, 10:34 AM
I'll be LMAO when he is the coach the next 5 years knowing that Y'all got on the wagon grudgingly.
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Best joke of the day. Thanks

jhildebrand
10-26-2010, 10:34 AM
Guys on Sirius have said with both gruden/cowher that they'd expect FULL REIGN! Just an FYI.
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Gruden nor Cowher have never had full reign. I am not sure they would be able to put up a good fight for it. Cowher probably will have more success simply because he will be more in demand.

Northman
10-26-2010, 10:35 AM
Guys on Sirius have said with both gruden/cowher that they'd expect FULL REIGN! Just an FYI.
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At least they have won something.

rcsodak
10-26-2010, 10:35 AM
If Wade gets fired, they will give the job to Jason Garrett. At least I think he would be the front-runner.

I hope Wade does get fired. He is an great DC (and we could use one).
Didn't look "great" last night. How many yards did NYG run for?
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Ravage!!!
10-26-2010, 10:37 AM
Yeah, maybe. But that would kind of go against his track record (as far as hiring coaches). I think the only big name he has brought in was Parcels.

Jimmy Johnson was a big name. So was Switzer. Obviously big for different reasons. Its just a feeling I get. He has a billion dollar stadium, a team that has the most talent he has had in years, and the window is shrinking. Putting the fans in that stadium is HUGE, and I think the fans would give Cowher more respect than the young OC that has gotten a lot of criticisms himself.

:whoknows: I don't think it would be a fit, anyway. But thought it would be an interesting "look" for the Cowboys to go after.

Northman
10-26-2010, 10:37 AM
Getting back to reality and back on track, I don't think you can read much into the silence. That is Pat's way. He makes his decisions and then steps back and let's the people he hired do the job the way they see fit. This is no different than the silence with Marshall, Scheffler and Hillis and the majority of the Cutler situation.

I admire Bowlen for that and for not mettling. That is part of what makes him a great owner.

However, I will say if I were Joe Ellis, I would be a bit concerned. Bowlen does want the NE way and did want to save some money. That much has been reported. Problem is he may lose much more money than he imagined with the current direction the team is headed. At a minimum, if a change is made I wouldn't be so certain that Ellis gets to stick around.


I dont know where you guys get your information from. Is Bowlen quieter than most? Yes. But when rumors started circulating years ago about Shanny being in hot seat Bowlen had no problem telling the media that Shanny wasnt going anywhere. Keep in mind NO ONE saw the firing of Shanahan until the day it happened so i wouldnt hedge my bets that the silence means nothing.

TXBRONC
10-26-2010, 10:37 AM
Thats like asking why were we competitive in games with Shanahan as HC. Mediocrity is mediocrity no matter how you spice it up. Right now, we arent even mediocre.

I really hate saying this but I agree completely.
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slim
10-26-2010, 10:38 AM
Didn't look "great" last night. How many yards did NYG run for?
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Not sure...but I think the NYG had over 500 yards of offense.

Hell, NY turned the ball over 5 times (I think) and the game wasn't even close (at least not as close as the score would indicate).

Northman
10-26-2010, 10:38 AM
Didn't look "great" last night. How many yards did NYG run for?
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Is he the Cowboys DC?

rcsodak
10-26-2010, 10:39 AM
Very true. I hold Bowlen as equally responsible. Damn gutless drunk!
link?
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jhildebrand
10-26-2010, 10:39 AM
Didn't look "great" last night. How many yards did NYG run for?
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He also isn't the coordinator :coffee: I don't understand why so many people think a HC is basically a coordinator on one side of the ball once being named HC i.e. Nolan's def in SF was terrible or Billick's O in Balt was terrible. Judge them as they are in the position they are HC or OC/DC

Northman
10-26-2010, 10:40 AM
link?
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Link to what?

Ravage!!!
10-26-2010, 10:41 AM
Gruden nor Cowher have never had full reign. I am not sure they would be able to put up a good fight for it. Cowher probably will have more success simply because he will be more in demand.

Yeah.. thats just speculation from some guy on radio. Doesn't make it fact, nor does it make it realistic.

Gruden had the powers in Oakland, but Cowher never had and I'm not sure he wants all of it.

Ravage!!!
10-26-2010, 10:42 AM
I dont know where you guys get your information from. Is Bowlen quieter than most? Yes. But when rumors started circulating years ago about Shanny being in hot seat Bowlen had no problem telling the media that Shanny wasnt going anywhere. Keep in mind NO ONE saw the firing of Shanahan until the day it happened so i wouldnt hedge my bets that the silence means nothing.

Thats a VERY good point. I believe he did come out and defend McD on other situations as well.

slim
10-26-2010, 10:44 AM
Jimmy Johnson was a big name. So was Switzer. Obviously big for different reasons. Its just a feeling I get. He has a billion dollar stadium, a team that has the most talent he has had in years, and the window is shrinking. Putting the fans in that stadium is HUGE, and I think the fans would give Cowher more respect than the young OC that has gotten a lot of criticisms himself.

:whoknows: I don't think it would be a fit, anyway. But thought it would be an interesting "look" for the Cowboys to go after.

I didn't really see Johnson or Switzer as big name guys (at least not at the NFL level), but I guess you can make that argument.

I have a few friends that are Cowboy fans and they all want Garrett. Of course they are cowboy fans, so WTF do they know :D

rcsodak
10-26-2010, 10:47 AM
Very true. I hold Bowlen as equally responsible. Damn gutless drunk!
link?
Seems to me you don't care for anything Broncos. (save for the cheerleaders) From top to bottom. Pretty sad. :tsk:
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Northman
10-26-2010, 10:48 AM
link?
Seems to me you don't care for anything Broncos. (save for the cheerleaders) From top to bottom. Pretty sad. :tsk:
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If i didnt care i wouldnt of bothered being fan for his long. You still havent told me what you want a link for.

slim
10-26-2010, 10:49 AM
I dont know where you guys get your information from. Is Bowlen quieter than most? Yes. But when rumors started circulating years ago about Shanny being in hot seat Bowlen had no problem telling the media that Shanny wasnt going anywhere. Keep in mind NO ONE saw the firing of Shanahan until the day it happened so i wouldnt hedge my bets that the silence means nothing.

I agree. I would say the silence means a lot more than some worthless PR release.

jhildebrand
10-26-2010, 10:51 AM
I dont know where you guys get your information from. Is Bowlen quieter than most? Yes. But when rumors started circulating years ago about Shanny being in hot seat Bowlen had no problem telling the media that Shanny wasnt going anywhere. Keep in mind NO ONE saw the firing of Shanahan until the day it happened so i wouldnt hedge my bets that the silence means nothing.

That is my point-You cant read into any of Bowlen's silence. He has always stepped back as an owner and let people do the job he hired them to do.

As for the Ellis comment. I am simply making the argument that I wouldn't think he is safe should a change get made. The NE system that Pat wants has been well documented by Ellis himself (1043 the fan interview discussing cutler) and in the post. It has been about operating as efficiently as possible (save $).

GEM
10-26-2010, 10:51 AM
That gutless drunk is viewed by most that matter as one of the best owners in the NFL. That gutless drunk has kept the Denver Broncos in Denver when it could have been much monetarily convenient to get out of this hick town.
That gutless drunk did what he had to to bring 2 trophies to this town.

Show some ******* respect.

Like none of you drink.
Like all of you are built of stone.
Like all of you have built a business like he has.

:rolleyes:

Northman
10-26-2010, 10:52 AM
That gutless drunk is viewed by most that matter as one of the best owners in the NFL. That gutless drunk has kept the Denver Broncos in Denver when it could have been much monetarily convenient to get out of this hick town.
That gutless drunk did what he had to to bring 2 trophies to this town.

Show some ******* respect.

Like none of you drink.
Like all of you are built of stone.
Like all of you have built a business like he has.

:rolleyes:



It was a reference to a hilarious thread started on the OM years ago.

slim
10-26-2010, 10:53 AM
That gutless drunk is viewed by most that matter as one of the best owners in the NFL. That gutless drunk has kept the Denver Broncos in Denver when it could have been much monetarily convenient to get out of this hick town.
That gutless drunk did what he had to to bring 2 trophies to this town.

Show some ******* respect.

Like none of you drink.
Like all of you are built of stone.
Like all of you have built a business like he has.

:rolleyes:

I think the "gutless drunk" comment was said in jest (mostly).

slim
10-26-2010, 10:56 AM
All right, everyone settle down.

We have a common enemy now, so let's just focus on that.

GEM
10-26-2010, 10:57 AM
Nope, no big deal.

I said my piece, you said yours...in the end it's all opinions.

I think his track record with those that matter, matter a hell of a lot more than being a gutless drunk. I know where it started. It had no merit then, and it has no merit now.

Northman
10-26-2010, 10:58 AM
Nope, no big deal.

I said my piece, you said yours...in the end it's all opinions.

I think his track record with those that matter, matter a hell of a lot more than being a gutless drunk. I know where it started. It had no merit then, and it has no merit now.

Thank god for a freedom of speech.

rcsodak
10-26-2010, 10:59 AM
Just bet your happy as can be along with all the other non fans of Josh.

Face the fact that many hated hiim from day one because he was from NE.
Many hated him because mike was fire and no one could ever replace his grace.

Many hated him because he did not keep the playbook and only fix the D

Others thought jay walked on water and orton was trash.

Now its pile on time for every one of you.

I'll be LMAO when he is the coach the next 5 years knowing that Y'all got on the wagon grudgingly.
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HAMMER-MEETS-NAIL
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rcsodak
10-26-2010, 11:02 AM
At least they have won something.
Best joke of the week.
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Northman
10-26-2010, 11:04 AM
Best joke of the week.
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If winning Super Bowls is a joke, count me in.

BroncoNut
10-26-2010, 11:08 AM
Very true. I hold Bowlen as equally responsible. Damn gutless drunk!

that's the 2nd reference I've read on broncofan webites suggesting Bowlen's excess use of alcohol. Not to call anyone out, but BigDaddyBronco (or BDB) called him a drunk retard on another site. Is Bowlen known for getting drunk or something?

rcsodak
10-26-2010, 11:08 AM
Not sure...but I think the NYG had over 500 yards of offense.

Hell, NY turned the ball over 5 times (I think) and the game wasn't even close (at least not as close as the score would indicate).
Exactly. And correct me if I'm wrong, but didnt phillips take over the D? Good grief! If there was EVER a HC that shouldn't take on additional responsibilities! Lol
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Northman
10-26-2010, 11:10 AM
that's the 2nd reference I've read on broncofan webites suggesting Bowlen's excess use of alcohol. Not to call anyone out, but BigDaddyBronco (or BDB) called him a drunk retard on another site. Is Bowlen known for getting drunk or something?

I have no idea. Taco started a thread after the firing of Shanahn calling him a gutless drunk. It became one of the funniest threads of alltime because of his meltdown. I really have no idea if he drinks or not but thought i was funny. Clearly, some people take it far too personal.

BroncoNut
10-26-2010, 11:13 AM
I have no idea. Taco started a thread after the firing of Shanahn calling him a gutless drunk. It became one of the funniest threads of alltime because of his meltdown. I really have no idea if he drinks or not but thought i was funny. Clearly, some people take it far too personal.

well,... I hope he gets help if he indeed does have a drinking problem.

Lonestar
10-26-2010, 11:13 AM
LMAO! No matter what was/wasnt said, it would have still come across as a 'death meld' for McD.
Its kneejerk to suggest firing McD midstream in his 2nd yr. This isnt basketball/hockey/baseball. Its too shorrt of season.
Peter King this morning said anybody saying this is all on McD is wrong. Called cutler "an immature 9 yr old child" who after bowlen reached out to him, ignored him and that was the final straw. That Orton has outplayed him. Hillis-mistake. Smith-mistake.
In other words, yes he's struggling. But its not time to give up. He thinks a 3rd yr should be warranted.
BTW, no McD this am, but I assume thats because of the screwedup practice schedule.
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But Peter King is a Josh Homer he doesn't count.

Much ado about nothing in just one more hang Josh by the balls thread.
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Northman
10-26-2010, 11:16 AM
Are those salty balls?

rcsodak
10-26-2010, 11:16 AM
Yeah.. thats just speculation from some guy on radio. Doesn't make it fact, nor does it make it realistic.

Gruden had the powers in Oakland, but Cowher never had and I'm not sure he wants all of it.
You're right. But these "guy(s) on the radio" actually KNOW the coaches, personally. They actually TALK with the coaches. They actuallyTALK with the people around the coaches. Unlike.....never mind.
At the least, we won't have to worry about getting Mr Tears Schottsy or Mr Kleenex Vermeil.
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rcsodak
10-26-2010, 11:20 AM
If i didnt care i wouldnt of bothered being fan for his long. You still havent told me what you want a link for.
Your unnecessary (IMV) attack of Bowlen. Part joke/part serious.
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rcsodak
10-26-2010, 11:25 AM
That gutless drunk is viewed by most that matter as one of the best owners in the NFL. That gutless drunk has kept the Denver Broncos in Denver when it could have been much monetarily convenient to get out of this hick town.
That gutless drunk did what he had to to bring 2 trophies to this town.

Show some ******* respect.

Like none of you drink.
Like all of you are built of stone.
Like all of you have built a business like he has.

:rolleyes:
THANK YOU, GEM. I'd prolly get the boot (to the joy of some) if I'd have said what came to mind. :D

:clap: :hi5:
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Northman
10-26-2010, 11:25 AM
Your unnecessary (IMV) attack of Bowlen. Part joke/part serious.
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He's free game. McDaniels, Shanny, Culter, Hillis, Orton, Jesus, God, whatever. Im throwing my wrath at the people responsible for my team sucking. I honestly could care less if Bowlen is a drunk. Its his job to put out a winning team with the decisions he makes. Bowlen has done some great things in the PAST but this is a new dawn and right now he isnt doing great things so he will get criticism for it and if that means i let loose on him than i will joking or not. But, here's an idea. How bout you not try to make it about me and instead make it about the topic. Mmmkay?

Traveler
10-26-2010, 11:30 AM
I've said several times times I'd reserve judgement on McDaniels until the end of October.

Wanted to give him a chance to put more of his offense in place and see if the team started to improve as the year went on. Sadly, we seem to be getting worse.

Some of this mess is mitagted by the number of injuries to key players. But that's no excuse for the listlessness and sloppy play this team continues to exhibit.

I've been a strong McDaniels supporter. I still like what his vision of what he'd like this team to become. Having said that, my concern is that he may might not be the one to make this vision come true.

I'll see what he can do now that a majority of the fans-like myself-that supported him have finally come to the realization the failed Belichik coaching tree might claim Denver as it's next victim.

Is that throwing him under the bus? Probably. I'll say that I have lost confidence that he can bring the organization back to the lofty status it deserves.

red98
10-26-2010, 11:30 AM
I have no idea. Taco started a thread after the firing of Shanahn calling him a gutless drunk. It became one of the funniest threads of alltime because of his meltdown. I really have no idea if he drinks or not but thought i was funny. Clearly, some people take it far too personal.

Taco's epic meltdown will live forever in the annals of OM lore.

It was truly hilarious.

:laugh:

rcsodak
10-26-2010, 11:35 AM
If winning Super Bowls is a joke, count me in.
I like Gruden. But how do you call his SB win HIS? And how'd he do afterwards? He pulled a Shanny in much less time, is all.
Chucky OC/Chin DC=SB
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rcsodak
10-26-2010, 11:36 AM
that's the 2nd reference I've read on broncofan webites suggesting Bowlen's excess use of alcohol. Not to call anyone out, but BigDaddyBronco (or BDB) called him a drunk retard on another site. Is Bowlen known for getting drunk or something?
If you cant beat em, beat em down. :coffee:
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Northman
10-26-2010, 11:41 AM
I like Gruden. But how do you call his SB win HIS? And how'd he do afterwards? He pulled a Shanny in much less time, is all.
Chucky OC/Chin DC=SB
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Even if you wanted to discredit Gruden for building Tampa you would still have to give him credit for building the team that he faced. And as has been pointed out in other threads after the SB win he lost a lot of the aging vets especially on defense. Does he have the kind of resume that BB has in NE? Nope. But then again neither does McD and considering for a moment on how he built the Raiders during his tenure i would lean to that far more than what ive seen from McD at this point. As for Cowher, he has always put up a competitive team despite losses and always fielded a great defense. And i would gladly take a better defense than offense right now. We learned under Shanahan that all offense and no defense doesnt work. Now, we have something simliar (without more points) and the defense is still atrocious.

Ray Finkle
10-26-2010, 11:58 AM
Taco's epic meltdown will live forever in the annals of OM lore.

It was truly hilarious.

:laugh:

and resulted in OM having their press pass taken last summer when someone labeled the Bowlen photo "Gutless Drunk"....

Northman
10-26-2010, 12:02 PM
and resulted in OM having their press pass taken last summer when someone labeled the Bowlen photo "Gutless Drunk"....

That made it even more hilarious.

Lonestar
10-26-2010, 12:04 PM
Getting back to reality and back on track, I don't think you can read much into the silence. That is Pat's way. He makes his decisions and then steps back and let's the people he hired do the job the way they see fit. This is no different than the silence with Marshall, Scheffler and Hillis and the majority of the Cutler situation.

I admire Bowlen for that and for not mettling. That is part of what makes him a great owner.

However, I will say if I were Joe Ellis, I would be a bit concerned. Bowlen does want the NE way and did want to save some money. That much has been reported. Problem is he may lose much more money than he imagined with the current direction the team is headed. At a minimum, if a change is made I wouldn't be so certain that Ellis gets to stick around.

An interesting view. Good post but I have to wonder about your NE comment as well as money saving.

As far as Ellis is concerned he stays as CFO he has Pats total trust. Looking forward to hearing more from you on the above items.
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Gimpygod
10-26-2010, 12:05 PM
Just bet your happy as can be along with all the other non fans of Josh.

Face the fact that many hated hiim from day one because he was from NE.
Many hated him because mike was fire and no one could ever replace his grace.

Many hated him because he did not keep the playbook and only fix the D

Others thought jay walked on water and orton was trash.

Now its pile on time for every one of you.

I'll be LMAO when he is the coach the next 5 years knowing that Y'all got on the wagon grudgingly.
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Usually I would say hit it then pass it to the left but your "it" appears to be laced with formaldehyde or Drano or something.

I didn't have anything against him initially and felt excitement at the prospect of our team with its talent being led by a new vibrant coach. His personnel moves, the way he deals with players, his play calling and other factors have led me to really dislike him. Allowing him to destroy my team playing "grown-up head coach" has left me with some very harsh feelings toward Pat as well.

So why did you have instant and undying loyalty to an unproven coach? I know you really liked him getting rid of "locker room cancers" "Prima Donna's" and "crybabies" and have vilified every person McDaniels had a beef with, to the point of belittling the importance and ability of Elvis Dumervil when it looked like McDaniels was going to not do right by his contract… You like that type of management style? Well, look how effective crapping all over players and letting them know they're all very replaceable, works. You get a team filled with sycophants and zero talent with no taste for competitiveness. World-class athletes have an inner drive and will butt heads with their superiors, a good coach works with that and doesn't need to ship the talent elsewhere. Bill Parcells once said when answering the question, "do you treat some players differently?" To which he responded "yes, because some players are better than others."

Lonestar
10-26-2010, 12:20 PM
Are those salty balls?

Nope just BIG BALLS. He has enuff to spare.
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BroncoNut
10-26-2010, 12:31 PM
He's free game. McDaniels, Shanny, Culter, Hillis, Orton, Jesus, God, whatever. Im throwing my wrath at the people responsible for my team sucking. I honestly could care less if Bowlen is a drunk. Its his job to put out a winning team with the decisions he makes. Bowlen has done some great things in the PAST but this is a new dawn and right now he isnt doing great things so he will get criticism for it and if that means i let loose on him than i will joking or not. But, here's an idea. How bout you not try to make it about me and instead make it about the topic. Mmmkay?

Maybe it's because of his drinking that his business/your team is suffering.

Northman
10-26-2010, 12:38 PM
Maybe it's because of his drinking that his business/your team is suffering.


No idea. He's made statements about one thing and then does something completely different so maybe it is an issue or maybe there is something else going on. Either way, i hope he can find a way to fix things before this coach drags this organization into the ground.

Lonestar
10-26-2010, 12:45 PM
Usually I would say hit it then pass it to the left but your "it" appears to be laced with formaldehyde or Drano or something.

I didn't have anything against him initially and felt excitement at the prospect of our team with its talent being led by a new vibrant coach. His personnel moves, the way he deals with players, his play calling and other factors have led me to really dislike him. Allowing him to destroy my team playing "grown-up head coach" has left me with some very harsh feelings toward Pat as well.

So why did you have instant and undying loyalty to an unproven coach? I know you really liked him getting rid of "locker room cancers" "Prima Donna's" and "crybabies" and have vilified every person McDaniels had a beef with, to the point of belittling the importance and ability of Elvis Dumervil when it looked like McDaniels was going to not do right by his contract… You like that type of management style? Well, look how effective crapping all over players and letting them know they're all very replaceable, works. You get a team filled with sycophants and zero talent with no taste for competitiveness. World-class athletes have an inner drive and will butt heads with their superiors, a good coach works with that and doesn't need to ship the talent elsewhere. Bill Parcells once said when answering the question, "do you treat some players differently?" To which he responded "yes, because some players are better than others."

Why do I like the guy. Initially I wanted sparano the D geniuos thinking that our O being ranked #2 was pretty hot.

But then I started to really look at that O. Nothing had changed on it for years.

Always had a good running game and the passing game was up and down. A great offense to say the least. But it was only great to the redzone then it often stalled to the point of elam having as good a chance at being our next HOF player. Because we simply could not get it in inside the 10 yard line.

I have always wanted real OLINE talent not cast offs or sub talented guys that have to have help from 3 others to make a block.

I have always wanted to have beef on the LOS. I alos beleived the RB talent is more day one picks than hoping you find one on day two.

Josh walked in the door and said we would be bigger, faster, stronger and smarter than we were today. He said we would meld the ZBS into the PBS by getting bigger on the oline.

He said he was going move our O to the spread passing game.

All things I have wanted to see forever, Why would I not like Josh?

As far as undying love no just want him to get his shot at getting it done. So far I like what I have seen. Considering the total rebuild that was necessary I think he is on the way. Lots of very young talent that is going to be up and down at least this year.
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HORSEPOWER 56
10-26-2010, 12:51 PM
that's the 2nd reference I've read on broncofan webites suggesting Bowlen's excess use of alcohol. Not to call anyone out, but BigDaddyBronco (or BDB) called him a drunk retard on another site. Is Bowlen known for getting drunk or something?

There have been several instances that I've heard from other fans or read about that Bowlen really used to have no shame walking the sidelines during and after big Broncos wins (especially during the good years of the mid-late nineties) completely hammered. Talking to players, talking to fans, etc and it was obvious that he'd been drinking heavily (reeked of alcohol, slurred speech, the works) in his owners box before spending the 4th quarter on the sidelines cracking jokes and socializing while loaded up with liquid courage and swagger (stagger?).

I can't confirm any of this but I've heard it from enough fans to lean toward the "truthful" side.

Northman
10-26-2010, 12:54 PM
I can say i havent been hammered since i was like 24. I drink to get a buzz while i socialize thats it. After watching my dad die of alcoholism when i was 8 i dont spend that much time drinking to get obliterated. Although, any more of these games like last week i may have to re-think my position on that.

jhildebrand
10-26-2010, 12:56 PM
I like Gruden. But how do you call his SB win HIS? And how'd he do afterwards? He pulled a Shanny in much less time, is all.
Chucky OC/Chin DC=SB
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The same way you call the Pats offense McD's despite Weiss laying all the groundwork, a HOF camcorder, and a HOF Qb.

Funny how that works :rolleyes:

NightTrainLayne
10-26-2010, 01:02 PM
There have been several instances that I've heard from other fans or read about that Bowlen really used to have no shame walking the sidelines during and after big Broncos wins (especially during the good years of the mid-late nineties) completely hammered. Talking to players, talking to fans, etc and it was obvious that he'd been drinking heavily (reeked of alcohol, slurred speech, the works) in his owners box before spending the 4th quarter on the sidelines cracking jokes and socializing while loaded up with liquid courage and swagger (stagger?).

I can't confirm any of this but I've heard it from enough fans to lean toward the "truthful" side.

I have a hard time faulting him if that's the case. I've been hammered at every Bronco game I've ever been at, and if I'd had the opportunity to visit with the players on the sideline I sure would have taken it.

jhildebrand
10-26-2010, 01:06 PM
An interesting view. Good post but I have to wonder about your NE comment as well as money saving.

As far as Ellis is concerned he stays as CFO he has Pats total trust. Looking forward to hearing more from you on the above items.
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It is well known that Ellis all but made the decision to hire McDaniels. Ellis conducted the final interview with McDaniels sans Bowlen. Don you honestly think that would be lost on Bowlen? :confused:

In an interview on FM 1043 the FAN Ellis mmentioned the change in fiscal policy was a big positive in mcDaniels favor. He mentioned that the open check policy of Shanahan had gone on for 10+ years. He also referenced the NE system as being one that doesnt pay a penny more for a player than necessary and even referenced the discounts big name players (Adalius, Moss, and others) took to be in NE. There are obvious issues with that theory but those are straight from Joe Ellis. Finally, Ellis had no qualms admitting he was enamored with NE and how they run their organization from the top down.

So now bring that to today. Hypothetically speaking say McDaniels doesn't right the ship and the losses mount with some blowouts mixed in. What does Pat save? :confused: NOTHING. If anything he risks losing support especially in this economy. After all, a lot was made out of the fact that Shanahan had a home PO game in his reach and failed and that alone was worth upwards of 20 million dollars. Something that was made a big deal with the Shanahan firing.

So... do you honestly think if Bowlen actually relieved McDaniels that Ellis would stick around? :confused: I just don't see it happening. The next regime could very likely involve a GM and that GM more than likely wont be as enamored with the NE way. Bowlen will be inclined to have a FO and staff that are all on the same page going forward. He already had a Sundquist Shanny drama and it didn't work out well. He saw the Goodman McD drama and allowed McD to do away with them. It wont be any different the next tme around either.

Superchop 7
10-26-2010, 01:25 PM
As I have mentioned 267 times previously (this being 268) Joe Ellis rise in power has a direct correlation with the demise of the Broncos.

Pat, the experiment is over, the bro-mance is over, Joe Ellis needs to be fired.

BroncoNut
10-26-2010, 01:46 PM
As I have mentioned 267 times previously (this being 268) Joe Ellis rise in power has a direct correlation with the demise of the Broncos.

Pat, the experiment is over, the bro-mance is over, Joe Ellis needs to be fired.

just get one more bj from him :lol:

Dreadnought
10-26-2010, 01:46 PM
I have a hard time faulting him if that's the case. I've been hammered at every Bronco game I've ever been at, and if I'd had the opportunity to visit with the players on the sideline I sure would have taken it.

Drinking and watching football go hand in hand. I once had a policy of having a beer with every TD or turnover we forced. Once upon a time I could be pretty blitzed by the Third Quarter. 2000 we scored a lot and our only defense was forcing a ton of turnovers. Now? I might as well quit being a "Whiskeypalian" and become some kind of dry Baptist or Mormon or something :lol:

G_Money
10-26-2010, 05:04 PM
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/writers/don_banks/10/26/nfl-coaches-hot-seat/1.html


Speaking of center stage, in the case of both Singletary and McDaniels, this week's trip to London for the NFL's annual international series game at Wembley Stadium is probably a welcomed chance to leave the continent for a while. The 49ers and Broncos have been disaster stories thus far this season, and Denver's 59-14 home-field loss to division rival Oakland on Sunday prompted McDaniels to apologize to team owner Pat Bowlen, the organization and its fans. The Raiders' point total was the highest in the 51-season history of the franchise.

McDaniels is now 4-13 as the Broncos head coach since starting last year with that mirage-like 6-0 getaway, and Bowlen was said to be livid with the team's embarrassment before its home crowd. Bowlen took a sizable risk in firing Mike Shanahan and hiring the 32-year-old McDaniels in early 2009, and the former Patriots offensive coordinator has done nothing lately to disprove the notion that he wasn't near ready for the job he was given.

McDaniels' fate was thought to be tied to the development of 2010 first-round pick Tim Tebow, but now it's an open question as to whether the coach will even be around in Denver when a verdict is rendered on Tebow's viability as an NFL quarterback. The most intriguing question remaining for the Broncos this season is whether McDaniels will try to save his job and the team's season by inserting Tebow into the lineup ahead of starter Kyle Orton, who has cooled off but hardly been the primary problem in Denver thus far. Unless Tebow can play defense, or single-handedly rescue the team's woeful running game, the Broncos looked doomed to a rock-bottom experience this season.

If the Broncos do turn things over to a new head coach in 2011 or sooner, he'll inherit a roster that McDaniels has vastly transformed in his two years on the job. From trading off Jay Cutler and Brandon Marshall, to acquiring the personnel to install a 3-4 defense, McDaniels has the team he chose to build. That means Denver's next head coach would likely face starting over from scratch, and another rebuilding of the roster.

But even the prospect of another extensive overhaul doesn't offer job security these days for an NFL head coach. As one NFL source put it to me: "That doesn't buy you time as a head coach any more. It's too much of a win-now league for that. Owners will still blow it up and start over if things get bad enough.''

For now, with their combined 4-16 record this season, Phillips, Singletary and McDaniels are staring down the darkest days of their coaching tenures. The NFL's firing season hasn't started yet, but it will commence soon enough. And chances are, with their losing numbers, their names will be among the first called.

Good to know Bowlen might have been throwing things in the owner's box the way I was chucking them at the TV. Hopefully we won't have more projectiles watching the London game.

~G

TXBRONC
10-26-2010, 05:12 PM
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/writers/don_banks/10/26/nfl-coaches-hot-seat/1.html



Good to know Bowlen might have been throwing things in the owner's box the way I was chucking them at the TV. Hopefully we won't have more projectiles watching the London game.

~G

Well it would surprise me if McDaniels took an ass chewing as epic as the ass whipping Denver took on Sunday.

Northman
10-26-2010, 05:14 PM
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/writers/don_banks/10/26/nfl-coaches-hot-seat/1.html



Good to know Bowlen might have been throwing things in the owner's box the way I was chucking them at the TV. Hopefully we won't have more projectiles watching the London game.

~G

Yep. Im glad he was pissed because i sure as hell was.

Slick
10-26-2010, 05:35 PM
Why do I like the guy. Initially I wanted sparano the D geniuos thinking that our O being ranked #2 was pretty hot.

But then I started to really look at that O. Nothing had changed on it for years.

Always had a good running game and the passing game was up and down. A great offense to say the least. But it was only great to the redzone then it often stalled to the point of elam having as good a chance at being our next HOF player. Because we simply could not get it in inside the 10 yard line.

I have always wanted real OLINE talent not cast offs or sub talented guys that have to have help from 3 others to make a block.

I have always wanted to have beef on the LOS. I alos beleived the RB talent is more day one picks than hoping you find one on day two.

Josh walked in the door and said we would be bigger, faster, stronger and smarter than we were today. He said we would meld the ZBS into the PBS by getting bigger on the oline.

He said he was going move our O to the spread passing game.

All things I have wanted to see forever, Why would I not like Josh?

As far as undying love no just want him to get his shot at getting it done. So far I like what I have seen. Considering the total rebuild that was necessary I think he is on the way. Lots of very young talent that is going to be up and down at least this year.
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I wanted all those things too Jr but here we are, halfway through and where are we? How are we better? have we built any depth at all? Are we"dafting" better?

The only improvement I've seen is Kyle Orton's passing numbers, which don't do us a bit of good. His win percentage is declining steadily.

What has this coach done to give you hope for the future?

scott.475
10-26-2010, 05:44 PM
At this point, who could have ever imagined his handling of Cutler and trading of Marshall would be on the low end of questionable things he has done? (I am way past the Cutler thing, I don't think he would have really ended up being that good here after all. Just in relation to all THAT drama two years ago)

Lancane
10-26-2010, 06:11 PM
Will beating a 1-6 team do much for him right now? It's sad that on paper the 49ers look to be better then us. If McDaniels can not win this game I think it's the nail in the coffin, I already think he's likely to be canned at season's end, losing to a 1-6 team could see him jobless sooner, though I doubt Bowlen will pull the trigger till after the final game of the season, an interim coach would end up being either Wink Martindale or Mike McCoy and neither inspires enough confidence to hold even an interim position.

claymore
10-26-2010, 06:31 PM
Will beating a 1-6 team do much for him right now? It's sad that on paper the 49ers look to be better then us. If McDaniels can not win this game I think it's the nail in the coffin, I already think he's likely to be canned at season's end, losing to a 1-6 team could see him jobless sooner, though I doubt Bowlen will pull the trigger till after the final game of the season, an interim coach would end up being either Wink Martindale or Mike McCoy and neither inspires enough confidence to hold even an interim position.

I dont think Smith is playing and I dont know who the backup is... But I was listening to Mike Florio and he was mentioning the coaches on the Hot seat. This is a must win game for singletary. This game isnt a give me. It could be the niners super bowl.

Northman
10-26-2010, 06:50 PM
I dont think Smith is playing and I dont know who the backup is... But I was listening to Mike Florio and he was mentioning the coaches on the Hot seat. This is a must win game for singletary. This game isnt a give me. It could be the niners super bowl.

David Carr is the backup.

turftoad
10-26-2010, 06:51 PM
Why do I like the guy. Initially I wanted sparano the D geniuos thinking that our O being ranked #2 was pretty hot.

But then I started to really look at that O. Nothing had changed on it for years.

Always had a good running game and the passing game was up and down. A great offense to say the least. But it was only great to the redzone then it often stalled to the point of elam having as good a chance at being our next HOF player. Because we simply could not get it in inside the 10 yard line.

I have always wanted real OLINE talent not cast offs or sub talented guys that have to have help from 3 others to make a block.

I have always wanted to have beef on the LOS. I alos beleived the RB talent is more day one picks than hoping you find one on day two.

Josh walked in the door and said we would be bigger, faster, stronger and smarter than we were today. He said we would meld the ZBS into the PBS by getting bigger on the oline.

He said he was going move our O to the spread passing game.

All things I have wanted to see forever, Why would I not like Josh?

As far as undying love no just want him to get his shot at getting it done. So far I like what I have seen. Considering the total rebuild that was necessary I think he is on the way. Lots of very young talent that is going to be up and down at least this year.
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Finally a half hearted answer.

However, McD has done NONE of the things (bolded) that he said he was going to do.

We are not bigger, smarter, stronger or faster.
We have not built the O line or the D line.
We are not a power blocking/running team.
We've had some of the best O lines in the league in past years.

We can't run or stop the run.

We still can't do anything in the red zone, only between the 20's.

We did not need a total rebuild at all.
We needed to tweek the offense in the red zone.
We needed to draft defense and tweek it with a few FA's.

He has done nothing but piss players off, piss coach's off and piss the fan base off big time.

He's turned a once proud organization into a national laughing stock.

Just don't see anything to like at all about your beloved Josh.

Dreadnought
10-26-2010, 07:01 PM
David Carr is the backup.

Always good news to face David Carr. Course, it should be a good thing to face chumps like JaMarcus Russell and Jason Campbell, too, so what does that tell you? We gave them both short sunburst moments of glory. If only we faced Tom Brady more often, I guess...him we seem to be able to stop. Go figure.

Cugel
10-26-2010, 07:02 PM
I didn't have anything against him initially and felt excitement at the prospect of our team with its talent being led by a new vibrant coach. His personnel moves, the way he deals with players, his play calling and other factors have led me to really dislike him. Allowing him to destroy my team playing "grown-up head coach" has left me with some very harsh feelings toward Pat as well.

So why did you have instant and undying loyalty to an unproven coach? I know you really liked him getting rid of "locker room cancers" "Prima Donna's" and "crybabies" and have vilified every person McDaniels had a beef with, to the point of belittling the importance and ability of Elvis Dumervil when it looked like McDaniels was going to not do right by his contract… You like that type of management style? Well, look how effective crapping all over players and letting them know they're all very replaceable, works. You get a team filled with sycophants and zero talent with no taste for competitiveness. World-class athletes have an inner drive and will butt heads with their superiors, a good coach works with that and doesn't need to ship the talent elsewhere. Bill Parcells once said when answering the question, "do you treat some players differently?" To which he responded "yes, because some players are better than others."

1000% Accurate! I feel exactly the same way!

When Bowlen fired Shanahan I thought "well it was about time," the team was really treading water, and you can't improve without making better decisions about drafting defense -- and Shanny's NEVER been successful in drafting defensive players (he built his SB teams with defensive FAs).

Then the Cutler fiasco shocked me: forget whatever you think about Cutler, McDaniels is supposed to be the adult -- and he handled things like a rebellious teen-ager with a chip on his shoulder ("I know you are but what am I?") :coffee:

Then the incomprehensible spate of draft horrors (staring with trading a 1st round pick for a 2nd and winding up with a useless midget CB) and endless personnel screwups. The players he's dumped are playing great ball for other teams (Torain, Hillis, Marshall, Sheffler, etc.) The players he's brought in from New England have sucked (do I need to mention names)?

The ZBS worked for years, he scrapped it and now the OL that only gave up 6 sacks of Cutler all year can't do a thing (I think we can all agree from watching Bears games that it wasn't Cutler's amazing agility that prevented sacks his last year in Denver).

The arrogance and immaturity of McDaniels rubbed me the wrong way from the beginning and now it's beyond obvious that he needs to be replaced -- and the Broncos start from scratch all over again with new players and coaches. The only question is how long it's going to take before Bowlen does the inevitable. :coffee:

Northman
10-26-2010, 07:03 PM
Always good news to face David Carr. Course, it should be a good thing to face chumps like JaMarcus Russell and Jason Campbell, too, so what does that tell you? We gave them both short sunburst moments of glory. If only we faced Tom Brady more often, I guess...him we seem to be able to stop. Go figure.


Yea, im not sold that we can beat him. In Houston he had no line like a certain someone faces in Chicago but SF have a RB and we have no defense. Will Carr even matter? :lol:

KCL
10-26-2010, 07:09 PM
I can say i havent been hammered since i was like 24. I drink to get a buzz while i socialize thats it. After watching my dad die of alcoholism when i was 8 i dont spend that much time drinking to get obliterated. Although, any more of these games like last week i may have to re-think my position on that.

off topic...sorry about that North..I also know first hand how alcohol can screw people up.

claymore
10-26-2010, 07:09 PM
If Orton lines up at WR, I hope Bowlen fires McD on the spot. THe wild horse is retarded.

Lonestar
10-26-2010, 07:10 PM
It is well known that Ellis all but made the decision to hire McDaniels. Ellis conducted the final interview with McDaniels sans Bowlen. Don you honestly think that would be lost on Bowlen? :confused:

In an interview on FM 1043 the FAN Ellis mmentioned the change in fiscal policy was a big positive in mcDaniels favor. He mentioned that the open check policy of Shanahan had gone on for 10+ years. He also referenced the NE system as being one that doesnt pay a penny more for a player than necessary and even referenced the discounts big name players (Adalius, Moss, and others) took to be in NE. There are obvious issues with that theory but those are straight from Joe Ellis. Finally, Ellis had no qualms admitting he was enamored with NE and how they run their organization from the top down.

So now bring that to today. Hypothetically speaking say McDaniels doesn't right the ship and the losses mount with some blowouts mixed in. What does Pat save? :confused: NOTHING. If anything he risks losing support especially in this economy. After all, a lot was made out of the fact that Shanahan had a home PO game in his reach and failed and that alone was worth upwards of 20 million dollars. Something that was made a big deal with the Shanahan firing.

So... do you honestly think if Bowlen actually relieved McDaniels that Ellis would stick around? :confused: I just don't see it happening. The next regime could very likely involve a GM and that GM more than likely wont be as enamored with the NE way. Bowlen will be inclined to have a FO and staff that are all on the same page going forward. He already had a Sundquist Shanny drama and it didn't work out well. He saw the Goodman McD drama and allowed McD to do away with them. It wont be any different the next tme around either.

Thanks for the context on Ellis. Being out of town and not having access to the local talk shows on a regular basis I do not hear all the tidbits.

That said I heard it was joe that did the final to clarify a few points that Pat wanted to know that it was no where as long as the joint interview.

What I would call nailing down the basic dollar values before talking final contract with agent.

Joe has been a trusted friend of Pats for a long time. I do not believe that Pats feels Josh is his fault.

As for the future IF Josh is canned and I do not see that unless they fail to win another game.

I would hope they would hire an exprienced GM first and allow him to equip the squad with coaches and TRAINERS of his choosing.
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Cugel
10-26-2010, 07:18 PM
There are some things you all missed so far in this thread:

1. McDaniels has signed a multi-year contract, and after eating $7 million on Shanny's contract Bowlen does NOT want to have to eat a bunch more millions on getting rid of McDaniels.

2. The CBA expires at the end of this year and next year is looking like a lock-out lost season -- i.e. NO revenues and a massive fight with the players. Not the best time to fire your coach, pay him millions, go out and hire a new coach and pay HIM millions more, then engage in FA to get rid of the DEAD WOOD left over from the previous regime which will cost MILLIONS MORE in dead cap space. Ouch!

3. Of course the players might fold like they always do, but they already prepared to de-certify the union at the end of this season, which is the first step towards filing an anti-trust lawsuit against the owners. The NFL is a monopoly in restraint of trade. No question (in every other business standard NFL player contract practices would be considered per se illegal and violations of the anti-trust laws -- in the absence of a collective bargaining agreement).

So, if the owners lock out the players and it winds up in court, the NFL could possibly lose, and in any case litigation might wipe out the season.

4. All this uncertainty is good reason to let McDaniels twist in the wind until the end of the season at least and re-evaluate everything then.

Bowlen is desperately hoping that the team rallies because if they totally fall apart he's going to HAVE to make a move during the season -- just to maintain fan loyalty. This ain't the Lions or Bengals. Broncos fans are used to winning teams and won't sit silently still for a 4-12 or 3-13 season or something without triggering a MASSIVE fan revolt.

The LAST thing Bowlen wants is big declines in ticket sales entering into next season (if there is one).

So, he's keeping his mouth shut and telling Ellis to lock his heels together and keep it zipped as well. Then he's keeping his fingers crossed that some miracle happens and McDaniels regains control over the situation.

I think that ship has sailed and that the team is well into the process of giving up on McDaniels. The veterans will be looking to get out of town. The players are going to be putting on their salary drive in expectation of a new coach next season and becoming a free agent (voluntarily or not).

When a season turns to shit like this it gets VERY UGLY, VERY FAST. Denver hasn't seen anything like this since the bad old days of the early 70's.

The worst thing for me is that I predicted all this. I saw this train-wreck coming miles away, when all the fans were saying "We're 6-0!!! Whoo! Hooo!" and I was arguing: "Mostly luck plus the defense is playing exactly like the '85 Bears -- how long can that last?"

It does NOT make me happy AT ALL to be right. I'd be happily eating crow right now if I could (Just as I have to for ripping Orton as "Captain Neck-beard" last season). I was wrong about Orton and I'd love to be wrong about McDaniels. Sadly, I'm not. :coffee:

spikerman
10-26-2010, 07:28 PM
There are some things you all missed so far in this thread:

1. McDaniels has signed a multi-year contract, and after eating $7 million on Shanny's contract Bowlen does NOT want to have to eat a bunch more millions on getting rid of McDaniels.

2. The CBA expires at the end of this year and next year is looking like a lock-out lost season -- i.e. NO revenues and a massive fight with the players. Not the best time to fire your coach, pay him millions, go out and hire a new coach and pay HIM millions more, then engage in FA to get rid of the DEAD WOOD left over from the previous regime which will cost MILLIONS MORE in dead cap space. Ouch!


On Sirius NFL radio the other day they were saying that the owners were in a great position because they're still going to get the TV money either way. They'll still have plenty of revenue if that's true.

G_Money
10-26-2010, 07:33 PM
McDaniels has a 2 years left on his contract at $2 million apiece.

Bowlen can eat 4 million dollars without blinking. He paid Alphonso $2.15 million just in signing bonus for one year of work, then Mcdaniels kicked him off the team. No pro-rating the bonus there over his body of work for us.

Play one rookie over one vet and he makes his $2 million a season back that it cost him to can McDaniels.

The money Josh is owed is not a large consideration. The fact that he'd then have to pay the next GM and coach more change than he's paying the current ones might matter.

But when you consider Forbes thinks the Broncos dropped 3% of their value over Josh's first year and will lose more this year...

http://www.bizjournals.com/denver/stories/2010/08/23/daily49.html?ana=from_rss&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+bizj_denver+%28Denver+Busines s+Journal%29


At an estimated team value of $1.081 billion, the Broncos rank No. 10 among all 32 NFL teams, Forbes says.

That 3 percent value dip compares to the Broncos' average annual value increase of 11 percent since Pat Bowlen paid $78 million for the team in 1984.

Josh cost Bowlen $30 million on paper over one season. How much this season? When the team is worth a BILLION dollars those valuations matter.

Josh's 4 million? Please. Cheap at twice the price if he's driving the franchise value down.

~G

Cugel
10-26-2010, 07:38 PM
On Sirius NFL radio the other day they were saying that the owners were in a great position because they're still going to get the TV money either way. They'll still have plenty of revenue if that's true.

Think the networks are going to sit still for that? The NFL will KILL the goose that laid the golden egg if the networks think they are sitting there laughing all the way to the bank and letting the season go by being intransigent.

If you're paying hundreds of millions to the NFL for broadcasting rights to games and the owners are locking out the players and there ARE no games, and you still have to pay the league, how happy are you going to be? :coffee:

And when it comes time to negotiate a new contract with the league are you going to offer them even MORE money, or are you going to factor in the lost revenues from a lost season and conclude "screw these guys, it's not worth the risk?"

The NFL may get their revenues from the networks next year, but their STADIUM revenues will bite the dust, it overall it will bite them in the ass in some way at some time. Guaranteed. :coffee:

Watched many hockey games on TV lately? The fatal decline of hockey started with the lockout. Baseball used to be the #1 sport in America. Did the strike season have anything to do with their decline? Yup! Not the only thing, but it didn't help. This won't either.

claymore
10-26-2010, 07:41 PM
Think the networks are going to sit still for that? The NFL will KILL the goose that laid the golden egg if the networks think they are sitting there laughing all the way to the bank and letting the season go by being intransigent.

If you're paying hundreds of millions to the NFL for broadcasting rights to games and the owners are locking out the players and there ARE no games, and you still have to pay the league, how happy are you going to be? :coffee:

And when it comes time to negotiate a new contract with the league are you going to offer them even MORE money, or are you going to factor in the lost revenues from a lost season and conclude "screw these guys, it's not worth the risk?"

The NFL may get their revenues from the networks next year, but their STADIUM revenues will bite the dust, it overall it will bite them in the ass in some way at some time. Guaranteed. :coffee:

Watched many hockey games on TV lately? The fatal decline of hockey started with the lockout. Baseball used to be the #1 sport in America. Did the strike season have anything to do with their decline? Yup! Not the only thing, but it didn't help. This won't either.

The league has them bent over the barrel there too cause we all know the NFL will brodcast all its games for a fee over the internet eventually anyway.

jhildebrand
10-26-2010, 07:43 PM
Thanks for the context on Ellis. Being out of town and not having access to the local talk shows on a regular basis I do not hear all the tidbits.

That said I heard it was joe that did the final to clarify a few points that Pat wanted to know that it was no where as long as the joint interview.

What I would call nailing down the basic dollar values before talking final contract with agent.

Joe has been a trusted friend of Pats for a long time. I do not believe that Pats feels Josh is his fault.

No worries. I listened to that interview and the Gary Barnett one several times. They were great interviews. Gary Barnett mentioned how he had Jimmy Claussen, Maurice Jones Drew and Jeremy Maclin committed to CU the year they fired him :eek: Imagine where CU could be :tsk:

As for the future IF Josh is canned and I do not see that unless they fail to win another game.



I would hope they would hire an exprienced GM first and allow him to equip the squad with coaches and TRAINERS of his choosing.
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I think most of Bronconation, if not all, feels that way.

Let's be clear, I am not saying I want a change now. There are still scenarios that could play out where I would be ok seeing another year of McDaniels. Simply IF.

Cugel
10-26-2010, 07:50 PM
McDaniels has a 2 years left on his contract at $2 million apiece.

Bowlen can eat 4 million dollars without blinking. . . . .
The money Josh is owed is not a large consideration. The fact that he'd then have to pay the next GM and coach more change than he's paying the current ones might matter.

But when you consider Forbes thinks the Broncos dropped 3% of their value over Josh's first year and will lose more this year...

http://www.bizjournals.com/denver/stories/2010/08/23/daily49.html?ana=from_rss&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+bizj_denver+%28Denver+Busines s+Journal%29

Josh cost Bowlen $30 million on paper over one season. How much this season? When the team is worth a BILLION dollars those valuations matter.

Josh's 4 million? Please. Cheap at twice the price if he's driving the franchise value down.~G

You need to read more carefully. Here:


"Rumors persist that Broncos owner Pat Bowlen is looking for investors or may even consider selling the team," Forbes says. "... Although the team has among the most loyal fans in the NFL, and have sold out general seating at Invesco Field since it opened in 2001, Bowlen has struggled to sell out the luxury suite and club seat inventory and carries $150 million of stadium debt."

Overall, 21 of the NFL's 32 teams lost value year over year in the latest Forbes report. NFL teams slipped 2 percent in combined value to an average of $1.02 billion.

Investors don't care about a team's won-lost record, they care about the overall bottom line.

1. Bowlen struggling to sell luxury suites (even before McDaniels) and has a $150 million stadium debt to finance.

2 Rumors Bowlen is thinking of selling the team which suggests instability in management.

3. Every team in the NFL is losing money these days. It's a bad economy.

You can't say "McDaniels is costing Bowlen $30 million" as though if the Broncos were 7-0 a long term business evaluation would be $30 million higher!

(Have you ever done a business eval? Even current revenues are only 1 factor to evaluate and won-lost record doesn't even compute directly to lost revenues. (Long term failure does equal lost revenues, but that's a different matter than a current losing season).

"That does not compute Will Robinson!"

jhildebrand
10-26-2010, 07:53 PM
You need to read more carefully. Here:

Investors don't care about a team's won-lost record, they care about the overall bottom line.

1. Bowlen struggling to sell luxury suites (even before McDaniels) and has a $150 million stadium debt to finance.

2 Rumors Bowlen is thinking of selling the team which suggests instability in management.

3. Every team in the NFL is losing money these days. It's a bad economy.

You can't say "McDaniels is costing Bowlen $30 million" as though if the Broncos were 7-0 a long term business evaluation would be $30 million higher!

(Have you ever done a business eval? Even current revenues are only 1 factor to evaluate and won-lost record doesn't even compute directly to lost revenues. (Long term failure does equal lost revenues, but that's a different matter than a current losing season).

"That does not compute Will Robinson!"

Not to mention Bowlen has had cash flow issues since he owned the team. That is why he did the luxury boxes at old Mile High for an infusion of cash flow. That is why he tried to sell 10% to Elway-cash flow.

It would be ridiculous to sell this team if there is any possibility the new owner could move them. We gave him the stadium he said he needed to be competitive. Funny how the argument has changed.

Rumors all summer long, even now, are Jerry Jones is financially in trouble some even suggest BROKE! There is a reason the CBA got yanked.

Northman
10-26-2010, 07:55 PM
You need to read more carefully. Here:

Investors don't care about a team's won-lost record, they care about the overall bottom line.

1. Bowlen struggling to sell luxury suites (even before McDaniels) and has a $150 million stadium debt to finance.

2 Rumors Bowlen is thinking of selling the team which suggests instability in management.

3. Every team in the NFL is losing money these days. It's a bad economy.

You can't say "McDaniels is costing Bowlen $30 million" as though if the Broncos were 7-0 a long term business evaluation would be $30 million higher!

(Have you ever done a business eval? Even current revenues are only 1 factor to evaluate and won-lost record doesn't even compute directly to lost revenues. (Long term failure does equal lost revenues, but that's a different matter than a current losing season).

"That does not compute Will Robinson!"


Actually, win/loss does play a major part. If Denver was fielding a competitive team it would draw more interest from even the most wealthy. Ravens tickets are hard to come by and a good portion of that is because of the winning of the team. On the other side, the Orioles cant sell out the stadium and if i wanted to go to a game it would not only be easy but cheap as shit. Having Bowlen put a winning product on the field helps TREMENDOUSLY to help him sell seats. Even if the luxury suite is expensive surrounding companies will buy up tickets to give to vendors for promotional rewards just like they do for the Ravens. If Bowlen waits too long to try and fix that problem he may very well end up selling the team. Then again, maybe the guy just doesnt care anymore.

Lonestar
10-26-2010, 07:56 PM
I wanted all those things too Jr but here we are, halfway through and where are we? How are we better? have we built any depth at all? Are we"dafting" better?

The only improvement I've seen is Kyle Orton's passing numbers, which don't do us a bit of good. His win percentage is declining steadily.

What has this coach done to give you hope for the future?

We have lots of things real beef on the LOS. Some of the best WR in the league. A great QB.

How could we have depth after getting rid of 32 of the 53 on the 08 squad that are no longer in the NFL.

We have IIRC. All but 8 guys on the team 8 years or less. In the NFL.

A shit load of rookies thru 4 year men IIRC about 20 of them.

We have a very young potetially strong team. That means inconsistent team strong as hell one week and off key the next.

We are the walking wounded as we speak. The true defintion of a M.A.S.H.

The heart and sole of this team was on the bench and unable to lead on the field during that ass kicking.

We have a lot of kiddies that need time in grade. Going with a new staff does nothing but set us back atleast two years unless they keep the current playbook for spread PBS O and 3-4 D.

Just how I see it.
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Cugel
10-26-2010, 07:57 PM
"As for the future IF Josh is canned and I do not see that unless they fail to win another game."

Just ask yourself what the fan reaction would be if the Broncos went 3-13 and then Bowlen kept McDaniels. :coffee:

Imagine what the sports-writers and TV talking head would say about his management.

Not going to happen. :coffee:

My position is that if McDaniels goes 7-9 he probably keeps his job for another year. 6-10 this season and he has a chance of keeping his job (depending on how he does in the division games).

If he continues to embarrass Bowlen by getting blown out in division home games? That will be another factor. How many more of these brutal humiliations can the fans take?

If he goes 5-11 or worse? Forget it. :coffee:

Personally, that's NOT my position. I'd fire him regardless. But, that's my estimation of what Bowlen will do, because he'll have no choice.

Try and sell those luxury suites for next season when your team is 3-13? Good luck in this economy!

Lancane
10-26-2010, 07:57 PM
The league has them bent over the barrel there too cause we all know the NFL will brodcast all its games for a fee over the internet eventually anyway.

Impossible Clay, the NFL will always count on broadcast television providers for airing league games. It would cost the NFL as a whole billions of dollars to purchase enough powerful servers and staff to stream games to the millions and millions of fans wanting to watch games, and that is before they saw any revenue from the fans willing to pay. Pogo, the EA gaming site has millions of customers and crashes at least three times a day, at least...so streaming live or recorded video to millions at a time is far more difficult. The revenue received by public access television stations has long paid willingly the high cost to show games, and if basic television is not willing to pay, don't be surprised if channels such as TBS, TNT, USA, SyFy, HBO, Showtime and so on are not because the ratings they would receive and the revenue those stations get being paid cable/dish channels.

Ravage!!!
10-26-2010, 08:01 PM
Someone show me where we have some of the Best WRs in the NFL, please? Also, since when is a QB taht goes 4-14 considered 'great'?

Northman
10-26-2010, 08:04 PM
Someone show me where we have some of the Best WRs in the NFL, please? Also, since when is a QB taht goes 4-14 considered 'great'?

Very true. Despite how well Orton has played great QB's are judged on wins.

Cugel
10-26-2010, 08:06 PM
Actually, win/loss does play a major part. If Denver was fielding a competitive team it would draw more interest from even the most wealthy. Ravens tickets are hard to come by and a good portion of that is because of the winning of the team. On the other side, the Orioles cant sell out the stadium and if i wanted to go to a game it would not only be easy but cheap as shit. Having Bowlen put a winning product on the field helps TREMENDOUSLY to help him sell seats. Even if the luxury suite is expensive surrounding companies will buy up tickets to give to vendors for promotional rewards just like they do for the Ravens. If Bowlen waits too long to try and fix that problem he may very well end up selling the team. Then again, maybe the guy just doesnt care anymore.

Yes. Winning does indirectly effect the long-term bottom line. But, it's not a direct 1 to 1 correlation.

And McDaniels certainly didn't "cost Bowlen $30 million." Much of that loss would have happened REGARDLESS OF THE BRONCOS RECORD!

Hence my quoting of the fact that around the NFL revenues are down for the first time in years.

And you might think $4 million is peanuts, but it's not peanuts to Bowlen! That's part of how Shanny got fired. He started getting a little too cavalier about how much of Bowlen's money he wasted on FAs who didn't pan out.

Just because McDaniels made a mistake on a FA and then got rid of him, isn't fatal, but Pat certainly didn't like it.

Shanny bought a lot of love for giving Bowlen his first championships. McD has done exactly NOTHING for Bowlen. NO post-season appearances, let alone playoff wins.

Tons of controversy, endless criticism in the media, divided fan-base and endless drama. He'd be more than human if he wasn't getting tired of all this mess.

Lancane
10-26-2010, 08:06 PM
We have lots of things real beef on the LOS. Some of the best WR in the league. A great QB.

Bullshit, Orton is playing at a high level in a system that is quarterback friendly and pads a quarterbacks stats. We have capable receivers who have some of the worst numbers in YAC in the league, Lloyd admitted that he is a possession receiver, Gaffney has proven he is much the same...so who in the hell are you talking about Royal? Thomas? Decker? All three are yet to prove anything beyond Royal's rookie season. And yes, we're bigger at the LOS, Orton is on par to be hit and sacked more then any other Broncos' quarterback in the last ten seasons and we still can not run the ball worth a damn...

That isn't getting better, only looking better on paper but worse on the field of play!

Lonestar
10-26-2010, 08:09 PM
I might add 8 of the 11 STARTERS on DEF are no longer in the NFL. We have had IMO great drafts save Smith whom I believe will be a damned good CB. The TE jurys still out on.

Ayers NO question about.
Moreno I think will be a stud RB not a 1500 yard guy but a NE stud RB. IF he ever stays healthy.
As for this year not sure if all of them that are still here, might stick.
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Northman
10-26-2010, 08:11 PM
And you might think $4 million is peanuts, but it's not peanuts to Bowlen!

I agree, but it think if Bowlen were to look at what it would cost him in the long run should the franchise start to tank and he starts losing revenue due to not filling up the seats $4 million is peanuts. Its a tough bullet to bite but one i think Bowlen would make if he needed too.

claymore
10-26-2010, 08:45 PM
We have lots of things real beef on the LOS. Some of the best WR in the league. A great QB.

How could we have depth after getting rid of 32 of the 53 on the 08 squad that are no longer in the NFL.

We have IIRC. All but 8 guys on the team 8 years or less. In the NFL.

A shit load of rookies thru 4 year men IIRC about 20 of them.

We have a very young potetially strong team. That means inconsistent team strong as hell one week and off key the next.

We are the walking wounded as we speak. The true defintion of a M.A.S.H.

The heart and sole of this team was on the bench and unable to lead on the field during that ass kicking.

We have a lot of kiddies that need time in grade. Going with a new staff does nothing but set us back atleast two years unless they keep the current playbook for spread PBS O and 3-4 D.

Just how I see it.
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3rd and one we go 4 wide recievers. Our line is in shambles.


Impossible Clay, the NFL will always count on broadcast television providers for airing league games. It would cost the NFL as a whole billions of dollars to purchase enough powerful servers and staff to stream games to the millions and millions of fans wanting to watch games, and that is before they saw any revenue from the fans willing to pay. Pogo, the EA gaming site has millions of customers and crashes at least three times a day, at least...so streaming live or recorded video to millions at a time is far more difficult. The revenue received by public access television stations has long paid willingly the high cost to show games, and if basic television is not willing to pay, don't be surprised if channels such as TBS, TNT, USA, SyFy, HBO, Showtime and so on are not because the ratings they would receive and the revenue those stations get being paid cable/dish channels.They've already started doing it with Pre-season. And its a once a week game, they dont need to have 24/7 uptime. The revenue generated from one sunday a week would be absolutley astronomical. Millions of dollars a second.

With Server farms, virtualization and fiber optics now in the ruaral areas.... A billion dollar investment for sole rights/leverage against the networks is chump change.
JMO...

TXBRONC
10-26-2010, 08:46 PM
Finally a half hearted answer.

However, McD has done NONE of the things (bolded) that he said he was going to do.

We are not bigger, smarter, stronger or faster.
We have not built the O line or the D line.
We are not a power blocking/running team.
We've had some of the best O lines in the league in past years.

We can't run or stop the run.

We still can't do anything in the red zone, only between the 20's.

We did not need a total rebuild at all.
We needed to tweek the offense in the red zone.
We needed to draft defense and tweek it with a few FA's.

He has done nothing but piss players off, piss coach's off and piss the fan base off big time.

He's turned a once proud organization into a national laughing stock.

Just don't see anything to like at all about your beloved Josh.

McDaniels did not say he would meld the ZBS with power blocking scheme. What he said is that he would use a combination in his firstseason as they moved towards a power scheme. He said NOTHING about melding the two permanently.

claymore
10-26-2010, 08:47 PM
I might add 8 of the 11 STARTERS on DEF are no longer in the NFL. We have had IMO great drafts save Smith whom I believe will be a damned good CB. The TE jurys still out on.

Ayers NO question about.
Moreno I think will be a stud RB not a 1500 yard guy but a NE stud RB. IF he ever stays healthy.
As for this year not sure if all of them that are still here, might stick.
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What starters did we draft on defense? And what about Ayers 1.5 sacks makes him "no Question"?

Lancane
10-26-2010, 09:00 PM
They've already started doing it with Pre-season. And its a once a week game, they dont need to have 24/7 uptime. The revenue generated from one sunday a week would be absolutley astronomical. Millions of dollars a second.

With Server farms, virtualization and fiber optics now in the ruaral areas.... A billion dollar investment for sole rights/leverage against the networks is chump change.
JMO...

Clay, a once a week game is different then airing six or so games at a time via servers to the millions of fans, even your average top of the line server farms or tech centers would be hard to handle the output of live streaming it would take, and they could end up losing revenue in the long run, some will refuse to pay more to watch games, that means that they would have to worry about possible piracy which is hard to stop in such situations. With the new league trying to get up and running, broadcast television could be the platform to rocket a smaller, new league to the forefront of pro-football. I don't think the NFL is dumb enough to risk taking a back seat to hold the upper hand in television rights.

I can understand your opinion, but the NFL is more likely to become a pay-per-view program overall then to be risk going full-time internet and risk hurting themselves financially...after all, gambling the future of an entire sports league will never be something any owner would take likely, they have too much invested and it would take a vote of majority with the owners to even get that rolling and many of them are older and stick to the old ways.

Ravage!!!
10-26-2010, 09:00 PM
I might add 8 of the 11 STARTERS on DEF are no longer in the NFL. We have had IMO great drafts save Smith whom I believe will be a damned good CB. The TE jurys still out on.

Ayers NO question about.
Moreno I think will be a stud RB not a 1500 yard guy but a NE stud RB. IF he ever stays healthy.
As for this year not sure if all of them that are still here, might stick.
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So was it a mistake to draft Smith, or a mistake to trade him away?:confused: Either way, he's not a contribution to THIS team by one mistake or another.

Ayers is absolutely a question. Since when is NE every known for having "stud" RBs??

TXBRONC
10-26-2010, 09:02 PM
Just ask yourself what the fan reaction would be if the Broncos went 3-13 and then Bowlen kept McDaniels. :coffee:

Imagine what the sports-writers and TV talking head would say about his management.

Not going to happen. :coffee:

My position is that if McDaniels goes 7-9 he probably keeps his job for another year. 6-10 this season and he has a chance of keeping his job (depending on how he does in the division games).

If he continues to embarrass Bowlen by getting blown out in division home games? That will be another factor. How many more of these brutal humiliations can the fans take?

If he goes 5-11 or worse? Forget it. :coffee:

Personally, that's NOT my position. I'd fire him regardless. But, that's my estimation of what Bowlen will do, because he'll have no choice.

Try and sell those luxury suites for next season when your team is 3-13? Good luck in this economy!

I've said similar things. At the very least McDaniels' team has to finish in and around the middle.

It is possible for McDaniels to survive a double digit lossing season but it would I bet the farm that he would keep his job.

scott.475
10-26-2010, 09:03 PM
I might add 8 of the 11 STARTERS on DEF are no longer in the NFL. We have had IMO great drafts save Smith whom I believe will be a damned good CB. The TE jurys still out on.


I have to take some exception with the continuing references to how many players are no longer in the league. Now, I am no great football academic, but here is how I see it. Each team in the NFL has, what, maybe 4 guys that most other teams would just go head over heals to get, but lets be generous and say each team has 10 or 15 of those guys. Those guys, the star players, are the guys on their teams who really are not expendable. All the players below them are somewhat expendable. I don't know if I would want to use the term "journeyman", but a similar concept I guess, in that there are lots of other guys in the league with a similar skill set at their position.

Now, lets say that tomorrow the Broncos just up and ceased operations, completely folded, so suddenly there was a pool of 53 players for any team to pick up. Sure, there would be some scrambling to get those top 5 or 10 guys, but below that any team would have to cut someone who already knows their system, knows the expectations, knows the team philosophy, just to bring in someone who is equally skilled, but doesn't know any of the previously listed things. Why cut one guy just to bring in another guy of equal talent and skill who doesn't even know your system?

I understand what people who bring this up are trying to say, but just seems if it was really that valid we would hear the same discussion quite often about other teams, and really, outside of this board I have just never really heard or read it discussed. :noidea:

Lonestar
10-26-2010, 10:01 PM
Bullshit, Orton is playing at a high level in a system that is quarterback friendly and pads a quarterbacks stats. We have capable receivers who have some of the worst numbers in YAC in the league, Lloyd admitted that he is a possession receiver, Gaffney has proven he is much the same...so who in the hell are you talking about Royal? Thomas? Decker? All three are yet to prove anything beyond Royal's rookie season. And yes, we're bigger at the LOS, Orton is on par to be hit and sacked more then any other Broncos' quarterback in the last ten seasons and we still can not run the ball worth a damn...

That isn't getting better, only looking better on paper but worse on the field of play!

Ok now we have heard from you someone that has failed to appear here unless we are in a downtime. So I guess that qualifies your position.

Belive what you want. The whole idea is to have a QB friendly opposed to a QB unfriendly offense.

IF and when they have a chance to practice run blocking with the same players for more than day consective days we just might help the running game which will tone down the pass rush.

For that matter getting down 7 14 21 points before you get. On offense more than two consective plays might also tone down the pass rush.

I see the last game as a convergence of all the bad things that can happen in a season. The law of averages has to turn. IMO

I believe in the kid you do not have to but then you and quite a few never did.
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Lonestar
10-26-2010, 10:33 PM
No worries. I listened to that interview and the Gary Barnett one several times. They were great interviews. Gary Barnett mentioned how he had Jimmy Claussen, Maurice Jones Drew and Jeremy Maclin committed to CU the year they fired him :eek: Imagine where CU could be :tsk:

As for the future IF Josh is canned and I do not see that unless they fail to win another game.



I think most of Bronconation, if not all, feels that way.

Let's be clear, I am not saying I want a change now. There are still scenarios that could play out where I would be ok seeing another year of McDaniels. Simply IF.

I have always been an advocate of the GM being in charge getting players that can be used in the schemes they (HC/GM) decide on.

I see no reason for a change at this point period. We are 7 games into the season and were in every game BUT the Oak game. IIRC.
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JDL
10-26-2010, 10:44 PM
then why were we competitive against the jets the week before???

How many mistakes did they make? That we couldn't take advantage of at home against an east coast team (traveling across most of the country?)

It's the NFL pretty much parity across the board... even good teams don't show up all the time (particularly after big wins) ... go see Baltimore's performance last week... we are now the Cleveland Browns... ... we are the Browns... awful... we will be in games only because the league is built that way... but we will continue to get overwhelmed in the 4th. This team is built poorly and there is no excuse... other coaches have done far more in 2 years and if this doesn't turn around... he should be fired. I mean even the coaches we considered are starting to turn wretched franchises to respectability while we sink to 60s type futility.

turftoad
10-26-2010, 10:48 PM
I have always been an advocate of the GM being in charge getting players that can be used in the schemes they (HC/GM) decide on.

I see no reason for a change at this point period. We are 7 games into the season and were in every game BUT the Oak game. IIRC.
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Some don't recall very correctly.

Week 3) 27-13 Indy wins

Week 5) 31-17 Balt wins

Oh, then there was last week.

And..... 7 games into the season and we are 2-5. Just got blown out in an embarasing display at home vs a divivsion rival.

Something needs to change.
Preferably the head coach. :salute:

turftoad
10-26-2010, 11:17 PM
How many mistakes did they make? That we couldn't take advantage of at home against an east coast team (traveling across most of the country?)

It's the NFL pretty much parity across the board... even good teams don't show up all the time (particularly after big wins) ... go see Baltimore's performance last week... we are now the Cleveland Browns... ... we are the Browns... awful... we will be in games only because the league is built that way... but we will continue to get overwhelmed in the 4th. This team is built poorly and there is no excuse... other coaches have done far more in 2 years and if this doesn't turn around... he should be fired. I mean even the coaches we considered are starting to turn wretched franchises to respectability while we sink to 60s type futility.

You mean like guys who took over the same year McD did.

Like:

Jets. Rex Ryan 5-1 this year and went deep, deep into the playoffs last year.

Cheifs. Todd Haley 4-2 this year. They were terrible the year before and for many years before that.

Bucs. Raheem Morris 4-2 this year. They too, were terrible last year and for many years before that.

Rams. Steve Spagnuolo 3-4 this year and took over arguably the one of the worst teams in the league.

None of these teams (maybe the Jets) had the talent when these coach's took over that the Broncos did. They pretty much kept what they had, had decent draft and added some good FA's and coach's. None of then gutted thier teams of very, very good talent like McD did.

Now, lets not forget about first year coach's this year.

Seahawks. Pete Carroll 4-2. They sucked the last few years.

Redskins. Mike Shanahan (remember him) 4-2. They sucked the last few years also.

Shazam!
10-26-2010, 11:18 PM
Some don't recall very correctly.

Week 3) 27-13 Indy wins

Week 5) 31-17 Balt wins

Oh, then there was last week.

And..... 7 games into the season and we are 2-5. Just got blown out in an embarasing display at home vs a divivsion rival.

Something needs to change.
Preferably the head coach.

I agree.

Im not blaming it all on Orton, it all can't be his fault.

It's the Coach who is supposed to have the team prepared, and get them to perform every week, even in the face of adversity.

McDaniels thoroughly failed in all of those regards last week.

It isn't that they lost or that they're 2-5. It isn't even just the score. It's who they lost to and how they did it. They made the Oakland Raiders look like juggernauts. They won't look that good again for years. His lack of emotion and confused look on the sideline was bad, and his press conference afterwards was saddening to me.

Even if they were outpsyched by the NYJ loss, it was up to McDaniels to get them fired up and ready for battle the next week and they clearly werent.

The same thing with Shanahan. When it was clear he couldn't lead the team anymore, I wanted a change them too.

To say I'm not happy is an understatement. And to not put it on McDaniels, who I vigorously defended as a means of giving him a chance to do his thing, is the only change I can think of that will ensure this kind of loss doesn't happen again.

Shazam!
10-26-2010, 11:22 PM
Redskins. Mike Shanahan (remember him) 4-2. They sucked the last few years also.

I have to put a * next to Shanny in Washington, not only for his desperately needed change of scenery. They had talent but terrible Coaching. He never had a QB as good as McNabb in Den. Im not saying Donovan is some kind of worldbeater, but I always liked him and wouldve been excited had he come to Denver when he was younger over Plummer, Cutler or Griese any day.

Also the NFC is a lot weaker than the AFC. Pitt, Indy, Ball, NYJ and NE IMO are looking better than the top NFC team, which would be... Exactly.

Lancane
10-27-2010, 01:29 AM
Ok now we have heard from you someone that has failed to appear here unless we are in a downtime. So I guess that qualifies your position.

Belive what you want. The whole idea is to have a QB friendly opposed to a QB unfriendly offense.

IF and when they have a chance to practice run blocking with the same players for more than day consective days we just might help the running game which will tone down the pass rush.

For that matter getting down 7 14 21 points before you get. On offense more than two consective plays might also tone down the pass rush.

I see the last game as a convergence of all the bad things that can happen in a season. The law of averages has to turn. IMO

I believe in the kid you do not have to but then you and quite a few never did.
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First off, I've been in Europe...it's not like I decided to just show up at a bad time, because I obviously could have been on weeks ago. And the fact you even bring something so childish up speaks volumes about your character.

As to the truth of the system being quarterback friendly, it's a fact and McDaniels even said as much, it's a system made to eliminate mistakes and turnovers and in the same sense pads the stats because it's based off short yardage gains to long strikes compared to the west coast and other high powered passing offenses. You can not argue against facts, especially by one stated by the coach you support so damn strongly.

Watch the running game carefully, the hogs can not keep a hole open to save their lives, they win upfront only to lose gap control too quickly and a finesse runner stands little chance to do much when a defender is in the gap. Same reason the pass rush has gotten to Orton more and more this year.

Great, you believe in the kid...that's your choice, but 'facts' are just that, he's made several unwise decisions, made this team the laughing stock of the league, depleted a talented roster and filled a lot of positions with supposed high character guys, most of whom lack talent to be starters. Add in his coaching and game planning thus far? You are of the minority of those who still believe, most fans just want to because they love the team...but the blinders are coming off most fans' eyes and are seeing the truth.

Ravage!!!
10-27-2010, 01:57 AM
I have to put a * next to Shanny in Washington, not only for his desperately needed change of scenery. They had talent but terrible Coaching. He never had a QB as good as McNabb in Den. Im not saying Donovan is some kind of worldbeater, but I always liked him and wouldve been excited had he come to Denver when he was younger over Plummer, Cutler or Griese any day.

Also the NFC is a lot weaker than the AFC. Pitt, Indy, Ball, NYJ and NE IMO are looking better than the top NFC team, which would be... Exactly.

Hah.. Denver had talent but just needed coaching! :lol:

Seriously though, Plummer was never as good as he was with Shanahan. Griese, Cutler.... he is just a good coach.

Plus.... I think it was pretty well discussed how many thought Shanahan would have a hard time competing with the NFC East. Dallas, NJG, and Philly aren't the weakest of teams (even though Dallas is struggling right now).

I agree with your assessment of the AFC (although Indy isn't looking that good), you basically have just two out of 4 conferences being worth a junk. In the NFC, the East with the Giants, Redskins, and Eagles are still one of the toughest divisions. But I agree, its clearly an AFC league right now.

silkamilkamonico
10-27-2010, 02:29 AM
How many mistakes did they make? That we couldn't take advantage of at home against an east coast team (traveling across most of the country?)

It's the NFL pretty much parity across the board... even good teams don't show up all the time (particularly after big wins) ... go see Baltimore's performance last week... we are now the Cleveland Browns... ... we are the Browns... awful... we will be in games only because the league is built that way... but we will continue to get overwhelmed in the 4th. This team is built poorly and there is no excuse... other coaches have done far more in 2 years and if this doesn't turn around... he should be fired. I mean even the coaches we considered are starting to turn wretched franchises to respectability while we sink to 60s type futility.

East coast teams do not struggle on the west coast like west coast teams struggle on the east. I'm not even sure why that's being brought up.

Denver had one absolutely horrendous game, and is being called out for it. They should be. They can go right out and play well against St Louis and spin a completely different vibe. In 2007 we got our ass completely handed to us by SD, at home, 41-3, and then turned around and beat Pittsburgh. SF is no Pittsburgh but the NFL spins highs and lows more than probably any sport with the exception of college football. That same year we got our ass kicked by the worst team of the decade, the Detroit Lions, 44-7, to go 3-5 in which many people were completely disgusted with the organization. We then turned around to beat KC.

The fanbase is disgusted with the organization. They should be. But it's a 16 game season. Not 1. We could miraculousy turn around and finish strong, and people are saying this game was a turning point.

silkamilkamonico
10-27-2010, 02:35 AM
Seriously though, Plummer was never as good as he was with Shanahan. Griese, Cutler.... he is just a good coach.

Plus.... I think it was pretty well discussed how many thought Shanahan would have a hard time competing with the NFC East. Dallas, NJG, and Philly aren't the weakest of teams (even though Dallas is struggling right now).

I agree with your assessment of the AFC (although Indy isn't looking that good), you basically have just two out of 4 conferences being worth a junk. In the NFC, the East with the Giants, Redskins, and Eagles are still one of the toughest divisions. But I agree, its clearly an AFC league right now.

Shanahan is an amazing offensive coach, and that's about as far as I would go with that. I'm not impressed with the NFCEast. The Giants look like the best team in that conference easily, and they have been very suspect in some areas. Philadelphia has beat 1 team above .500, and other than that they have looked inconsistently average at best. Washington is a grinding team with a terrible defense and work in progress offense. Dallas just flat out sucks.

Then again, there are alot of divisions in the NFL that I am not impressed with.

Lonestar
10-27-2010, 07:33 AM
Some don't recall very correctly.

Week 3) 27-13 Indy wins

Week 5) 31-17 Balt wins

Oh, then there was last week.

And..... 7 games into the season and we are 2-5. Just got blown out in an embarasing display at home vs a divivsion rival.

Something needs to change.
Preferably the head coach. :salute:

I seem to recall being in those game and being competive in them until a couple of late scoring drives put them out of reach. But then maybe I'm just a glass 3/4 full type of guy and I happen to see a lot of light at the end of the tunnel.

I also believe the moves made over the last two years were good ones that will pay off.

We have lost our top two OLBs. In the last game were working with the number 4 CB as a starter, eventually getting to the #6 guy playing, #5 safety,

On offense I do not know why Beadles who has played 3 spots this year, was starting injury to harris or just suckatude

I do not understand why anyone thought our oline would be great this year spefically on the running game when the two rookies both played in a spread O that rarely ran with beadle who has played at every spot on the oline this year BUT OC because of injuries to the starter. We are playing with a rookie OC that has to have gone up against perhaps 4 of the best 7or8 DLs in the NFL so far this year 5 if you count JAX

2 Our best 3 oline guys last year are coming of major surgery. Yea sure I forgot everyone has to put up with injuries.

While I have not studied the teams we have played so far IIRC none of them have been the MASH unit we have been maybe even combined they do not add up to our level of starters not playing so far.
The league having the parity it is a player here or there out may tip the scales.

Believe what Y'all want. And I will also. We have not seen what these guys can do.

I thiught it telling when down IIRC 21 they mounted a come back and got back into the game with a couple of stops on D and a scoring drives changing the MO, only to have the wheels come off in the second half.

Not sure why I'm trying to convince so many closed minded folks many of which have hated Josh from day one.
But I will try. Regardless.
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Lonestar
10-27-2010, 08:08 AM
First off, I've been in Europe...it's not like I decided to just show up at a bad time, because I obviously could have been on weeks ago. And the fact you even bring something so childish up speaks volumes about your character.

As to the truth of the system being quarterback friendly, it's a fact and McDaniels even said as much, it's a system made to eliminate mistakes and turnovers and in the same sense pads the stats because it's based off short yardage gains to long strikes compared to the west coast and other high powered passing offenses. You can not argue against facts, especially by one stated by the coach you support so damn strongly.

Watch the running game carefully, the hogs can not keep a hole open to save their lives, they win upfront only to lose gap control too quickly and a finesse runner stands little chance to do much when a defender is in the gap. Same reason the pass rush has gotten to Orton more and more this year.

Great, you believe in the kid...that's your choice, but 'facts' are just that, he's made several unwise decisions, made this team the laughing stock of the league, depleted a talented roster and filled a lot of positions with supposed high character guys, most of whom lack talent to be starters. Add in his coaching and game planning thus far? You are of the minority of those who still believe, most fans just want to because they love the team...but the blinders are coming off most fans' eyes and are seeing the truth.

Gee I guess I missed the new flash that europe does not have the internet. So much for that excuse.

Gutted a talented team LMAO

He got rid of 3 malcontents that were wanting monster contracts.Frankly not sure jay could have even played competively and been happy in this O. Marshall a total head case that caused disruption in the lockeroom and on the field. We are so much better this year in the wr spots.
Got rid of Hillis for reasons unknown. Yet not even sure if he could run behind this OLINE as it is currently a mash unit.

There was no talent on D save champ doom abd DJ
The oline has been a joke forever in short yardage
So pray tell other than hate what else have you got.

Your as well as many others dislike for Josh has been there IIRC since almost day one so play to your crowd all you want.

Just don't be disappointed 3 years from now when he is still coaching in DEN.
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Lonestar
10-27-2010, 08:15 AM
I have to put a * next to Shanny in Washington, not only for his desperately needed change of scenery. They had talent but terrible Coaching. He never had a QB as good as McNabb in Den. Im not saying Donovan is some kind of worldbeater, but I always liked him and wouldve been excited had he come to Denver when he was younger over Plummer, Cutler or Griese any day.

Also the NFC is a lot weaker than the AFC. Pitt, Indy, Ball, NYJ and NE IMO are looking better than the top NFC team, which would be... Exactly.

IIRC WAS had one of the top Ds in football last year yet decided to do what he failed to do in DEN whose D was pathetic for almost a decade make it a 3-4. Not sure how it has turned out so far.

But I'm sure someone will tell me.

WAS has had almost all the talent in the world with a high spending owner just never had coaching to go with it. Now they do. Good for mikey.
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Lonestar
10-27-2010, 08:18 AM
East coast teams do not struggle on the west coast like west coast teams struggle on the east. I'm not even sure why that's being brought up.

Denver had one absolutely horrendous game, and is being called out for it. They should be. They can go right out and play well against St Louis and spin a completely different vibe. In 2007 we got our ass completely handed to us by SD, at home, 41-3, and then turned around and beat Pittsburgh. SF is no Pittsburgh but the NFL spins highs and lows more than probably any sport with the exception of college football. That same year we got our ass kicked by the worst team of the decade, the Detroit Lions, 44-7, to go 3-5 in which many people were completely disgusted with the organization. We then turned around to beat KC.

The fanbase is disgusted with the organization. They should be. But it's a 16 game season. Not 1. We could miraculousy turn around and finish strong, and people are saying this game was a turning point.

Finally a rayional opost is a sea of hate and dispare.

Glad to know everyone is not that way.
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red98
10-27-2010, 08:20 AM
I seem to recall being in those game and being competive in them until a couple of late scoring drives put them out of reach. But then maybe I'm just a glass 3/4 full type of guy and I happen to see a lot of light at the end of the tunnel.

I also believe the moves made over the last two years were good ones that will pay off.

We have lost our top two OLBs. In the last game were working with the number 4 CB as a starter, eventually getting to the #6 guy playing, #5 safety,

On offense I do not know why Beadles who has played 3 spots this year, was starting injury to harris or just suckatude

I do not understand why anyone thought our oline would be great this year spefically on the running game when the two rookies both played in a spread O that rarely ran with beadle who has played at every spot on the oline this year BUT OC because of injuries to the starter. We are playing with a rookie OC that has to have gone up against perhaps 4 of the best 7or8 DLs in the NFL so far this year 5 if you count JAX

2 Our best 3 oline guys last year are coming of major surgery. Yea sure I forgot everyone has to put up with injuries.

While I have not studied the teams we have played so far IIRC none of them have been the MASH unit we have been maybe even combined they do not add up to our level of starters not playing so far.
The league having the parity it is a player here or there out may tip the scales.

Believe what Y'all want. And I will also. We have not seen what these guys can do.

I thiught it telling when down IIRC 21 they mounted a come back and got back into the game with a couple of stops on D and a scoring drives changing the MO, only to have the wheels come off in the second half.

Not sure why I'm trying to convince so many closed minded folks many of which have hated Josh from day one.
But I will try. Regardless.
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Right. Because anyone who disagrees with your assessment is closed minded and probably a hater. I swear there was a town hall thread about stuff like that.

Lonestar
10-27-2010, 08:40 AM
Gee I guess I missed the new flash that europe does not have the internet. So much for that excuse.

Gutted a talented team LMAO

He got rid of 3 malcontents that were wanting monster contracts.Frankly not sure jay could have even played competively and been happy in this O. Marshall a total head case that caused disruption in the lockeroom and on the field. We are so much better this year in the wr spots.
Got rid of Hillis for reasons unknown. Yet not even sure if he could run behind this OLINE as it is currently a mash unit.

There was no talent on D save champ doom abd DJ
The oline has been a joke forever in short yardage
So pray tell other than hate what else have you got.

Your as well as many others dislike for Josh has been there IIRC since almost day one so play to your crowd all you want.

Just don't be disappointed 3 years from now when he is still coaching in DEN.
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Since I can't edit in mobile mode.

Let me add to that gutted a talented team comment.

8 of the starters on DEFENCE are no longer in the NFL just about 70% of them our talented Starters. LMAO.

Also 32 of out 53 our 08 roster IIRC no longer in the NFL.

Yep that was gutting a talented team.
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Lonestar
10-27-2010, 08:44 AM
Right. Because anyone who disagrees with your assessment is closed minded and probably a hater. I swear there was a town hall thread about stuff like that.

If the truth hits home. Perhaps it is just that.

Lots of intolerance on this sight from both sides.

Now that has been said can we get a group hug.
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turftoad
10-27-2010, 08:48 AM
I seem to recall being in those game and being competive in them until a couple of late scoring drives put them out of reach. But then maybe I'm just a glass 3/4 full type of guy and I happen to see a lot of light at the end of the tunnel.

I also believe the moves made over the last two years were good ones that will pay off.

We have lost our top two OLBs. In the last game were working with the number 4 CB as a starter, eventually getting to the #6 guy playing, #5 safety,

On offense I do not know why Beadles who has played 3 spots this year, was starting injury to harris or just suckatude

I do not understand why anyone thought our oline would be great this year spefically on the running game when the two rookies both played in a spread O that rarely ran with beadle who has played at every spot on the oline this year BUT OC because of injuries to the starter. We are playing with a rookie OC that has to have gone up against perhaps 4 of the best 7or8 DLs in the NFL so far this year 5 if you count JAX

2 Our best 3 oline guys last year are coming of major surgery. Yea sure I forgot everyone has to put up with injuries.

While I have not studied the teams we have played so far IIRC none of them have been the MASH unit we have been maybe even combined they do not add up to our level of starters not playing so far.
The league having the parity it is a player here or there out may tip the scales.

Believe what Y'all want. And I will also. We have not seen what these guys can do.

I thiught it telling when down IIRC 21 they mounted a come back and got back into the game with a couple of stops on D and a scoring drives changing the MO, only to have the wheels come off in the second half.

Not sure why I'm trying to convince so many closed minded folks many of which have hated Josh from day one.
But I will try. Regardless.
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Really??

Don't you get tired of making all those excuses?? Most get tired of hearing them. :tsk:

Lonestar
10-27-2010, 08:51 AM
If the truth hits home. Perhaps it is just that.

Lots of intolerance on this sight from both sides.

Now that has been said can we get a group hug.
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Let me add that I was calling for a real GM as far back as 2003. One that could run the franchise except coaching the players. And I was laughed at and villified then. Never called for mikeys head till the last year when it was clear he lost the players. Or maybe it was the desire he lost but he never made good personel decisions from almost 1999 on. Our failure to rebuild after the HOF/SB players retired sealed his fate.
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red98
10-27-2010, 08:52 AM
If the truth hits home. Perhaps it is just that.

Lots of intolerance on this sight from both sides.

Now that has been said can we get a group hug.
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The truth is if there were any validity to your position, you wouldn't need to denigrate people when explaining it.

turftoad
10-27-2010, 08:53 AM
Let me add that I was calling for a real GM as far back as 2003. One that could run the franchise except coaching the players. And I was laughed at and villified then. Never called for mikeys head till the last year when it was clear he lost the players. Or maybe it was the desire he lost but he never made good personel decisions from almost 1999 on. Our failure to rebuild after the HOF/SB players retired sealed his fate.
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And McD is doing soooooo much better. NOT. :tsk: Done nothing but turn us into a laughing stock. It's effing embarrasing.

We need to bring in a real coach.

Lonestar
10-27-2010, 08:58 AM
Really??

Don't you get tired of making all those excuses?? Most get tired of hearing them. :tsk:

Thinking logically and reasoning what went wrong is a bad thing.

Before you can fix a problem you have to know what caused it. I spent my entire working career being the fixer going to one hell hole after another and fixing the problems and then moving to the next one.

If your tired of listening to reason for failure then ignore my posts. As I have ignored most of the negative nancies

I won't miss your posts that way.
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Lonestar
10-27-2010, 09:05 AM
And McD is doing soooooo much better. NOT. :tsk: Done nothing but turn us into a laughing stock. It's effing embarrasing.

We need to bring in a real coach.

Wow your embarassed now you have a feel for what is was like in the 60 and early 70s.


So sorry. While you were a glimmer in your daddies eye many of us were endearing beat downs almost like this last one weekly well maybe not weekly but many times a year. Habing a 200 yard passing week was a cause for celebration.

Now that does not excuse this past week. It is just not the end of the world like so many on here think it is.
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G_Money
10-27-2010, 09:07 AM
I keep trying to think of what you'd say if Shanahan went 4-13 here, Jr.

I don't remember "but we were in some of those losses" being an acceptable excuse under the Shanahan era. Flushing 1st round picks one year later would be cause for a rant on "dafting."

It's the lack of consistency, I guess.

And I can't really credit Josh with having to rebuild a "talentless" Shanahan team when Shanny won more games with that talentless squad and the worst DC in the league than we can win with a better squad and supposedly better coaches.

As I laid out elsewhere, I don't see significantly more young talent on this squad than was on that one, so in 2 years all Josh has done is swapped crappy vets soon to be out of the league with different vets soon to be out of the league, exchanged one set of young talent for another, and lost more games.

As others have said, that's not progress, and it's not what Bowlen hired him to do. Hopefully we see this mythical progress the rest of the year. It'd be a welcome change.

~G

Lonestar
10-27-2010, 09:54 AM
I keep trying to think of what you'd say if Shanahan went 4-13 here, Jr.

I don't remember "but we were in some of those losses" being an acceptable excuse under the Shanahan era. Flushing 1st round picks one year later would be cause for a rant on "dafting."

It's the lack of consistency, I guess.

And I can't really credit Josh with having to rebuild a "talentless" Shanahan team when Shanny won more games with that talentless squad and the worst DC in the league than we can win with a better squad and supposedly better coaches.

As I laid out elsewhere, I don't see significantly more young talent on this squad than was on that one, so in 2 years all Josh has done is swapped crappy vets soon to be out of the league with different vets soon to be out of the league, exchanged one set of young talent for another, and lost more games.

As others have said, that's not progress, and it's not what Bowlen hired him to do. Hopefully we see this mythical progress the rest of the year. It'd be a welcome change.

~G

Let's see if I have this correct. The REAL record is. 10-13 during a total rebuild retaining only the following starters
Champ hamstrung for much of last year
Doom playing new position
DJ same as doom
Caldy coming off knee surgery
Kuper giimpy ankle
Harris soon to be gone
Graham
Royal seems to be in the swing this year

Gone are 32 of 53 08 roster that are no longer in the NFL 8 of the 11 starters on D.

Yep no reason whatso ever of struggling especially since we have played perhaps 4 of the top Defences. In the NFL so far and a couple of the top offenses this year.
All with a very young team 40 of which are 8 years or less up wards of 20 with 2 years or less exprience.

So allow me to be optomistic instaed of being hateful

BTW Josh had the guts to make changes when a player did not work ou. Unlike no guts mikey that carried MOST of his day one picks for three years before cutting or trading them.
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jhildebrand
10-27-2010, 10:04 AM
Let's see if I have this correct. The REAL record is. 10-13 during a total rebuild retaining only the following starters
Champ hamstrung for much of last year
Doom playing new position
DJ same as doom
Caldy coming off knee surgery
Kuper giimpy ankle
Harris soon to be gone
Graham
Royal seems to be in the swing this year

Gone are 32 of 53 08 roster that are no longer in the NFL 8 of the 11 starters on D.

Yep no reason whatso ever of struggling especially since we have played perhaps 4 of the top Defences. In the NFL so far and a couple of the top offenses this year.
All with a very young team 40 of which are 8 years or less up wards of 20 with 2 years or less exprience.

So allow me to be optomistic instaed of being hateful


32 of the 53 are no longer in the league. I don't buy that for one moment. Please supply the 32 who are no longer in the league.



BTW Josh had the guts to make changes when a player did not work ou. Unlike no guts mikey that carried MOST of his day one picks for three years before cutting or trading them.
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You're flip flopping here. It wasn't long ago that you asked for 3 seasons to evaluate McD's draft picks including Alphonso before having to evaluate the guy. Your excuse was you did the same for Shanahan. Now this? :lol:

Oh, and how come McD doesn't simply cut Moss? :confused:

Mike
10-27-2010, 10:05 AM
Let's see if I have this correct. The REAL record is. 10-13 during a total rebuild retaining only the following starters
Champ hamstrung for much of last year
Doom playing new position
DJ same as doom
Caldy coming off knee surgery
Kuper giimpy ankle
Harris soon to be gone
Graham
Royal seems to be in the swing this year

Gone are 32 of 53 08 roster that are no longer in the NFL 8 of the 11 starters on D.

Yep no reason whatso ever of struggling especially since we have played perhaps 4 of the top Defences. In the NFL so far and a couple of the top offenses this year.
All with a very young team 40 of which are 8 years or less up wards of 20 with 2 years or less exprience.

So allow me to be optomistic instaed of being hateful

BTW Josh had the guts to make changes when a player did not work ou. Unlike no guts mikey that carried MOST of his day one picks for three years before cutting or trading them.
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You break it, you buy it.

Ravage!!!
10-27-2010, 10:32 AM
You're flip flopping here. It wasn't long ago that you asked for 3 seasons to evaluate McD's draft picks including Alphonso before having to evaluate the guy. Your excuse was you did the same for Shanahan. Now this? :lol:

Oh, and how come McD doesn't simply cut Moss? :confused:

BINGO! I thought it took "three years" to evaluate a rookie (player or coach), and we couldn't judge that player for another 2 seasons. What happened to THAT wonderful line of thinking?

Not to mention, almost EVERY coach in the league gives a first day pick 3 years considering the money they get. The player would REALLY have to suck and be a HORRIBLE pick to dump after one season.

TXBRONC
10-27-2010, 10:37 AM
You break it, you buy it.

Absolutely. What is it about 80-90 percent of the roster are players he brought in?
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turftoad
10-27-2010, 11:00 AM
Wow your embarassed now you have a feel for what is was like in the 60 and early 70s.


So sorry. While you were a glimmer in your daddies eye many of us were endearing beat downs almost like this last one weekly well maybe not weekly but many times a year. Habing a 200 yard passing week was a cause for celebration.

Now that does not excuse this past week. It is just not the end of the world like so many on here think it is.
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A glimmer in my daddies eye?? C'mon JR, you know better than that. You don't think I remember those years as a fan?
Just don't want to relive them again as you do.

And it's not just the past week

If you can try to recall, McD is 4-13 in his last 17 games. Good thing you have a short memory that you can forget these things.

IIRC, this is not a world discusion board but a Broncos discusion board.

turftoad
10-27-2010, 11:07 AM
Let's see if I have this correct. The REAL record is. 10-13 during a total rebuild retaining only the following starters
[/i][/size]

A total rebuild was NOT NEEDED.

That was McD's choice. He brought that apon himself.

Northman
10-27-2010, 11:11 AM
The truth is if there were any validity to your position, you wouldn't need to denigrate people when explaining it.

Ouch. :lol:

G_Money
10-27-2010, 11:53 AM
Originally Posted by Jrwiz
Wow your embarassed now you have a feel for what is was like in the 60 and early 70s.


So sorry. While you were a glimmer in your daddies eye many of us were endearing beat downs almost like this last one weekly well maybe not weekly but many times a year. Habing a 200 yard passing week was a cause for celebration.

Now that does not excuse this past week. It is just not the end of the world like so many on here think it is.

Um...I'm confused. Why are you comparing our recent travails to the decade of losing and ineptitude that started this franchise?

It's not like any of those players or coaches were here when we got good. We had to REPLACE those losing coaches to GET good. Were those losses in the 60's and 70's the end? For THOSE COACHES they were.

I don't want to get used to shrugging off pitiful performances and beat-downs. We expect more as Broncos fans, and we should.

And if the guys in charge can't right the ship, I hope to God they get replaced sooner rather than later. We already went through a decade of pretty mediocre football with some bright spots. The last half-decade has been woeful by our standards, but I would accept significant losses in a season to a purpose.

What is the purpose of these losses? Are our young defenders growing? Not really. Our old defenders are getting older and more worthless, we have zero worthwhile young DL, and none of the kids in the back seven have been impact players (though most can't stay healthy either). Is our OL coming together? Not so's you'd notice. Is our future QB getting reps that are causing losses? No. Is our running game coming together? No.

So we're just getting beat to no good end.

If it's injuries, then the kids who need to be in to get experiece and be evaluated can't do either.

If it's youth then we'd better hope that the young guys get better fast.

If it's age on defense then that's a problem, because most of the age is at positions that we're ill-equipped to upgrade with starting caliber youthful players.

If it's coaching then that's a problem too.

I hope Josh McDaniels is the right guy. I don't want to find a new coach, instruct new teams, have to gut the roster again, etc.

But "eh, it's happened before" doesn't work for me. First, no, that sort of loss really has only happened once before in history, and it was as an expansion team. Second, when losses and crumbling seasons did happen before, people got replaced.

If the next guy lost like that, HE got replaced.

So Josh had better stop losing, FAST, or he's gonna need a new job. Pretending otherwise is disingenuous, especially for a man who says he saw us go through 5 coaches in 7 years to start the franchise because the teams were atrocious.

~G

silkamilkamonico
10-27-2010, 11:55 AM
I keep trying to think of what you'd say if Shanahan went 4-13 here, Jr.
~G

If McDaniels goes 4-12 here (there are only 16 games in a season, not 17), he should be fired like any coach who hasn't won 2 SuperBowls 10 years ago in his 2nd+ year.

HORSEPOWER 56
10-27-2010, 12:37 PM
Absolutely. What is it about 80-90 percent of the roster are players he brought in?
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82%. Only 18.8% of the current roster was on the team in 2008.

Ravage!!!
10-27-2010, 01:42 PM
If McDaniels goes 4-12 here (there are only 16 games in a season, not 17), he should be fired like any coach who hasn't won 2 SuperBowls 10 years ago in his 2nd+ year.

He's talking about the last season's worth of games that has been played. Since the last year's bye week. If Shanahan had that streak of losses, JR wouldn't be coming to his defense.

TXBRONC
10-27-2010, 04:51 PM
82%. Only 18.8% of the current roster was on the team in 2008.

That being the case the criticism is fair imo.

Lonestar
10-27-2010, 05:03 PM
32 of the 53 are no longer in the league. I don't buy that for one moment. Please supply the 32 who are no longer in the league.


You're flip flopping here. It wasn't long ago that you asked for 3 seasons to evaluate McD's draft picks including Alphonso before having to evaluate the guy. Your excuse was you did the same for Shanahan. Now this? :lol:

Oh, and how come McD doesn't simply cut Moss? :confused:

It waa listed in another thread and doscumented by another member I found it hard to believe when I first saw it also. But the players listed were legit .

As for elvauating the players yes I believe for the most part that it takes about 2 years to see what they have especially. The later round guys but sometimes fate, injury takes that away. As for smith I still believe that he will be a god to great cb in the NFL .

As for the skells that Miley drafted day one the vast majoritiy of them were either flash in the pans or flat out sucked day one. But henheld on to them IMO till there 3rd year to not take the hit on the cap issues

arapaho2
10-27-2010, 05:14 PM
Since I can't edit in mobile mode.

Let me add to that gutted a talented team comment.

8 of the starters on DEFENCE are no longer in the NFL just about 70% of them our talented Starters. LMAO.

Also 32 of out 53 our 08 roster IIRC no longer in the NFL.

Yep that was gutting a talented team.
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so if this team is so friggen talented under joshes moves

wonder why we are a much worse team then the one shannahan led with al the malcontents and loser rejects

wait could it be....COACHING?

Lonestar
10-27-2010, 05:39 PM
A glimmer in my daddies eye?? C'mon JR, you know better than that. You don't think I remember those years as a fan?
Just don't want to relive them again as you do.

And it's not just the past week

If you can try to recall, McD is 4-13 in his last 17 games. Good thing you have a short memory that you can forget these things.

IIRC, this is not a world discusion board but a Broncos discusion board.

For most folks they came on board at super bowl time sorry I got you confused with them.

Regardless of his last seventeen games his record is 10-13. Unless Y'all need to just dwell on the bad things.

Let's talk after the season about his record. Then we have something to discuss.

Kinda a bad to talk about a team that has just come off a bad loss after they played the 2nd toughest schedule in the league this year.

If we do not win any more games this year I'll be moving toward your position.

I just do not see the huge deal that so many here do.

49_7 against a division foe that the only score was after a KO return. In that game we were never on the raiders side of the field on offense. Also remember them punting to us late in the game when ever they got in range of the south stands battery throwers. Some of those guys had great arms and could hit a gnats ass at 40 yards. :laugh:
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arapaho2
10-27-2010, 05:45 PM
For most folks they came on board at super bowl time sorry I got you confused with them.

Regardless of his last seventeen games his record is 10-13. Unless Y'all need to just dwell on the bad things.

Let's talk after the season about his record. Then we have something to discuss.

Kinda a bad to talk about a team that has just come off a bad loss after they played the 2nd toughest schedule in the league this year.

If we do not win any more games this year I'll be moving toward your position.

I just do not see the huge deal that so many here do.

49_7 against a division foe that the only score was after a KO return. In that game we were never on the raiders side of the field on offense. Also remember them punting to us late in the game when ever they got in range of the south stands battery throwers. Some of those guys had great arms and could hit a gnats ass at 40 yards. :laugh:
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if fans came on after 98..why does that make them less of a bronco fan...it doesnt right

and 10-13 isnt a bad thing?:lol:

yet you had no isssue bashing shanny in 08 when we played the toughest passing defense schedule

BeefStew25
10-27-2010, 05:57 PM
Guys. I remember when Craig Morton threw his leather helmet into the stands after a game. Lets give joshy a chance.

slim
10-27-2010, 05:58 PM
if fans came on after 98..why does that make them less of a bronco fan...it doesnt right

and 10-13 isnt a bad thing?:lol:

yet you had no isssue bashing shanny in 08 when we played the toughest passing defense schedule

Why do 75% of your posts mention shanny?

You do realize he's not coming back, right?

Bosco
10-27-2010, 10:30 PM
I'm going to quote myself from the other thread that talked about this, only because I don't want to type it again:

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I think it means that Bowlen isn't happy, and knows from experience, that you don't give interviews when you are too emotionally charged. He never throws his coaches under the bus, and isn't going to start bad-mouthing them to the media when he's upset. Rather, he's going to let things play out for a little bit, and later will give an interview once the emotions have leveled out, and the fan's emotions aren't on the peak.

When he does give the interview, I promise you right now that no matter HOW he feels, he'll give the glowing support of an owner that stands firmly behind his coach. He'll say that he is NOT happy with how the season is going, BUT, has all the confidence in the world that this coaching staff is working hard on righting the ship.

He'll use all the right words, say all the perfect cliche's, because thats how Bowlen is. He won't let anyone, outside his confident circle, know of any feelings that he may be dissatisfied with his coach.

Great post.

Jake Klug
10-28-2010, 01:33 AM
Forget Joe Ellis. He's part of the problem. This was his hire. He needs to be gone as well.

Lonestar
10-28-2010, 10:10 AM
Joe Ellis is a close friend and trusted confident of Pats. Not going to happen via Pats hand.

Josh was a choice of both of them it was not just Joes.

They both intreviewed all of the canidates.
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TXBRONC
10-28-2010, 10:26 AM
There are things that Ellis can be criticized for but the hiring of McDaniels is the sole responsibility of Bowlen. Most good business people will seek the advice of others when making big decisions so I don't think Ellis can be faulted for giving his honest opinion.
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arapaho2
10-28-2010, 10:54 AM
Why do 75% of your posts mention shanny?

You do realize he's not coming back, right?

Oh no!!!......dude the reference to shabby is because Jr insists we hold back critism of Josh...yet if you knew him on the old bronco board....he was the biggest crybaby about the coaches....always calling for his head constantly
Simply put I'm reminding him of his actions while he is condemminv posters for the same thing

slim
10-28-2010, 11:00 AM
Joe Ellis is a close friend and trusted confident of Pats. Not going to happen via Pats hand.

Josh was a choice of both of them it was not just Joes.

They both intreviewed all of the canidates.
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So was shanny.

Jake Klug
10-28-2010, 12:04 PM
Joe Ellis is a close friend and trusted confident of Pats. Not going to happen via Pats hand.

Josh was a choice of both of them it was not just Joes.

They both intreviewed all of the canidates.
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And listening to Joe has been killing his franchise. I saw you try to clarify Joes role elsewhere. Stop pretending like you know. Its widely known that Pat has become more reliant on Joe running his franchise. Joe is the one who staged the coup d'etat to get rid of Shanahan. Joe has Pats ear on coaching decision.

Also consider that Pat did a 180 on keeping Goodman around. Its debatable whether Josh was that pursuasive with Pat. Again, we know Joe has Pats ear.

Joe may be his friend but he's killing Pats franchise starting with that soulless stadium. Joe's rise to power correlates with Denver's fall in relevance. Joe needs to go.

KCL
10-28-2010, 12:50 PM
Oh no!!!......dude the reference to shabby is because Jr insists we hold back critism of Josh...yet if you knew him on the old bronco board....he was the biggest crybaby about the coaches....always calling for his head constantly
Simply put I'm reminding him of his actions while he is condemminv posters for the same thing

shabby shanny???

Lonestar
10-28-2010, 02:45 PM
I think the reference to my calling for mikeys coaching head. Is horse crap. I never liked mikey the GM. Never had a day one pick stay with the the club past the rookie contract besides LB's. IIRC.
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