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View Full Version : Tim Tebow Poll: Honestly How Do You Feel?



CHARLIEADAMSFAN
10-25-2010, 09:30 PM
There is a lot of debate here, so why don't we just let all the hatred, love and controversy just go into one thread with a poll. State your case here, why don't we keep it on record, and refer back to this for any of the wishy washy fairweather fans.

Italianmobstr7
10-25-2010, 09:31 PM
I like Tebow. I think if this season goes completely down the tubes we should start him. If we're not mathematically eliminated from the playoffs then Orton should start. Tebow should probably start next season.

FanInAZ
10-25-2010, 09:35 PM
TT has yet to be given a chance to succeed or fail at QB. Therefore, I have no basis for forming any opinion about his abilities to be the future QB that we drafted him to be.

CrazyHorse
10-25-2010, 09:35 PM
Orton's not going anywhere next year if only for the potential lockout.

Lancane
10-25-2010, 09:40 PM
Throwing Tebow in during the 4th quarter in a blowout is a big difference from just throwing his butt in for the remainder of the schedule. One could help him develop and the other could be detrimental to his development.

Broncos Mtnman
10-25-2010, 09:43 PM
He's over rated.

Trade him now before he's exposed and becomes worthless later.

BeefStew25
10-25-2010, 09:44 PM
He's over rated.

Trade him now before he's exposed and becomes worthless later.

He is our Brady Quinn.

CrazyHorse
10-25-2010, 09:48 PM
He is our Brady Quinn.

Who is our Peyton Hillis?

BeefStew25
10-25-2010, 09:49 PM
Who is our Peyton Hillis?

Joe Mays.

BroncoWave
10-25-2010, 09:50 PM
Trade him for Cleo Lemon

:billdevaroe:

TXBRONC
10-25-2010, 09:54 PM
As bad as things are right now I don't think we're at the point where you sit Orton in favor of Tebow.

Northman
10-25-2010, 09:56 PM
Not enough choices. The season isnt over yet and because of how bad the division is we can (realistically) lose 3 more games and win the division at 8-8. I dont expect that too happen but its certainly possible so really until we are clearly out of playoff contention you dont put Tebow in. If McD wanted to use this year as a rebuilding process he should of used Tebow from the word go, instead he wanted to make a run using Orton as the starter and giving Tebow time on the bench to learn. Orton isnt the reason we are losing games folks. Scoring in the redzone is still a problem but there is a lot more too it than just QB play.

BroncoWave
10-25-2010, 09:58 PM
Not enough choices. The season isnt over yet and because of how bad the division is we can (realistically) lose 3 more games and win the division at 8-8. I dont expect that too happen but its certainly possible so really until we are clearly out of playoff contention you dont put Tebow in. If McD wanted to use this year as a rebuilding process he should of used Tebow from the word go, instead he wanted to make a run using Orton as the starter and giving Tebow time on the bench to learn. Orton isnt the reason we are losing games folks. Scoring in the redzone is still a problem but there is a lot more too it than just QB play.

Not a single person has said that.

CrazyHorse
10-25-2010, 09:58 PM
Not a single person has said that.

It has been implied by certain posters. One in particular.

Northman
10-25-2010, 09:59 PM
Not a single person has said that.

Im just putting it out there for those who believe it. The season isnt over yet.

TheDave
10-25-2010, 10:04 PM
Unless I'm missing something, I don't think McKidd has nearly the faith in Tebow that some posters do. So far this season tebow has been active for a handful of plays, all of which are option plays.

He hasn't run anything close to McD's offense.

For better or worse Orton is the guy this year and probably next (depending on if there even is a next year)

TXBRONC
10-25-2010, 10:05 PM
Im just putting it out there for those who believe it. The season isnt over yet.

Agreed, but I think we're getting dangeriously close to that point where we're just playing out the string. :shocked:

Northman
10-25-2010, 10:07 PM
Agreed, but I think we're getting dangeriously close to that point where we're just playing out the string. :shocked:

I would agree but until that point happens i just dont think Orton will be replaced. Its one thing if KC and SD were running away with the division but its still in the grasp at this point. Sad that at 2-5 i can say that. :lol:

ikillz0mbies
10-25-2010, 10:11 PM
I picked the option of play Orton now and develop Tebow. Tebow has the potential and has the intangibles. But he needs the right coach and personnel to help him develop into a NFL quarterback. And if McDaniels gets the boot, the next coach has to stick with Tebow since he is the long term investment. I really hope that Tebow can become the future QB for the Broncos. Again, he has the intangibles such as the leadership. And his mechanics can definitely be adjusted.

CHARLIEADAMSFAN
10-25-2010, 10:28 PM
I picked the option of play Orton now and develop Tebow. Tebow has the potential and has the intangibles. But he needs the right coach and personnel to help him develop into a NFL quarterback. And if McDaniels gets the boot, the next coach has to stick with Tebow since he is the long term investment. I really hope that Tebow can become the future QB for the Broncos. Again, he has the intangibles such as the leadership. And his mechanics can definitely be adjusted.

I agree, I feel like if he is to get the right coach he could be amazing, but that is a big if.

nevcraw
10-25-2010, 10:37 PM
No need to mail it in.. Orton has played well enough for him to keep his job.
Although I did want him banished for that dumb ass expression on his face yesterday after every bad play or 3 and out.
Let tebow marinate.. His time will come but let this team have chance to redeem themselves.

ikillz0mbies
10-25-2010, 10:38 PM
I agree, I feel like if he is to get the right coach he could be amazing, but that is a big if.

Absolutely. If there is a new head coach, that head coach has to see Tebow as a the future QB and the ability to develop him.

BCJ
10-26-2010, 01:34 AM
as of right now, there are only 3 retardos
who think Orton is done and sit him. This season is far from over to give up on this division.

Bosco
10-26-2010, 02:15 AM
There is no debate. He's a developmental prospect who is being used in special packages while learning behind a guy who is playing like a legitimately elite QB. That is not going to change this season unless an injury (knock on wood) to Orton and Quinn force him into the lineup.

Ravage!!!
10-26-2010, 02:17 AM
Elite QBs don't go 4-14.

TimTebow15MVP
10-26-2010, 03:50 AM
too early for all this tebow talk. th ebroncos are 3 freakin games back of KC......with a game vs tghem coming up......orton is the starter untill were 3-10

sneakers
10-26-2010, 04:17 AM
Not a single person has said that.

Well one very vocal poster here has.

SR
10-26-2010, 04:57 AM
All of this hysteria and chaos among most Bronco fans really amuses and entertains me.

broncofaninfla
10-26-2010, 05:10 AM
This season is shot, if Tebow is the future of the franchise, I'd rather see us use him sooner than later. He'll have growing pains, might as well have them this season to give Denver some hope for next season. Maybe after the bye, especially if Mcd's "team first talent second" guys fall to the niners.

BroncoStud
10-26-2010, 07:30 AM
There is no debate. He's a developmental prospect who is being used in special packages while learning behind a guy who is playing like a legitimately elite QB. That is not going to change this season unless an injury (knock on wood) to Orton and Quinn force him into the lineup.

Orton is FAR from an elite QB. Tebow is already better than Brady Quinn. I would HOPE that our coaching staff will play Tebow once the Broncos are officially eliminated from the playoffs, if not, at least give him some passing packages when he does get his limited time.

If McDaniels trots out Orton when the season is over, it will be a monumental waste of time and snaps. At least give Tebow a chance.

Lonestar
10-26-2010, 09:27 AM
All of this hysteria and chaos among most Bronco fans really amuses and entertains me.

Same here absolutely amazing.
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Lonestar
10-26-2010, 09:31 AM
This season is shot, if Tebow is the future of the franchise, I'd rather see us use him sooner than later. He'll have growing pains, might as well have them this season to give Denver some hope for next season. Maybe after the bye, especially if Mcd's "team first talent second" guys fall to the niners.

Am I missing something did we just skip thru the last 9 games and I missed them.

One lousy game and your throwing a damned fine QB under the buss.
There is a remote possiblity that this team could be 11-5 yet.

Wow hysterical bunch non fans.
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Dzone
10-26-2010, 09:50 AM
If the season is gone, I say play Tebow now. Orton has put up nice numbers but is not the kind of qb you need in clutch situations.
Wondering why nobody has posted a poll about whether Mcdaniels should be fired. That would be interesting.

Shazam!
10-26-2010, 09:57 AM
Once the Season is declared over, let TT go the rest of the way and see what we have at QB for the future.

Ravage!!!
10-26-2010, 10:07 AM
the Poll didn't really have the correct options. Just because I think it might be a good idea to start the rookie, doesn't mean I think "Orton is done." If we start the rookie, its not because Orton has played poorly.

"Play Tebow" would have been a better option rather than trying to take away from Orton in the same grouping.

Although Orton has put up some nice numbers, he too is 4-13 over the last 17 games, just as the coach is (yes yes...4-12 because he didn't start against Washington for all the nit-pickers). We know the entire team has struggled, but so did Orton during those last 10 games of last season, and he's struggled the last two.

Doesn't mean I think he's playing poorly, but lets not try to make Orton into something he's not. Someone tried to say the guy is playing like an elite QB in another thread. Elite QBs don't go 4-12. They don't have problems putting the ball in the enzone. They don't constantly/consistently get outscored in the first and 4th quarters.

But, the team obviously isn't mathmatically out of the running. So although I think its time for TT to be put in the lineup and get as much starting experience as possible (because we SURE as hell know this is NOT a good team), I don't think we do it yet.

PAINTERDAVE
10-26-2010, 10:16 AM
Right . It was just one game.
The season is not over yet.

That said...

we are obviously not contenders.

No run game.
The defense let the Raiders hang 52 points on us in our house.
The o-line is like a sieve.

The balance of this season..

we need to put it to good use.

It can become the learning ground for Tebow.

Instead of simply a preseason next year...
he can benefit from the rest of this season...
after the bye...
against what everyone here says is the easiest part of our schedule.

If not this year, once we are out of the race
(and we are all but mathematicly out of this race)
then when?

If this was your business... would you throw away such a great opportunity to develop your future?

If we dont do this... and the rest of the season is a worthless struggle...
then the season truly was wasted.

I think it is time to start accepting reality... and make these final games
USEFUL instead of USELESS.

Life hands you lemons... you make lemonade.

blamkin86
10-26-2010, 10:49 AM
...but you're making the assumption that developing Tebow is going to be fruitful.

I wouldn't have minded Tebow in the 4th last weekend - in fact I do think that not putting him in was a mistake, in hindsight. But every time he comes in the game I feel like it's a wasted down. You can almost see it in the offense the way they line up seems to read like 'Oh brother here we go again.'

This is one of those arguments where you're hoping the unknown might be better than the known. I guess for me, I'm not willing to throw out what I saw against the Jets so we can develop a player that hasn't impressed me yet.

When we're mathematically eliminated, fine; bring in the guy and let's see his chops.

Personally I don't see anything in him that makes me think he can play at Orton's level. Even McDaniels won't let the guy throw the ball.

roomemp
10-26-2010, 11:15 AM
...but you're making the assumption that developing Tebow is going to be fruitful.

I wouldn't have minded Tebow in the 4th last weekend - in fact I do think that not putting him in was a mistake, in hindsight. But every time he comes in the game I feel like it's a wasted down. You can almost see it in the offense the way they line up seems to read like 'Oh brother here we go again.'

This is one of those arguments where you're hoping the unknown might be better than the known. I guess for me, I'm not willing to throw out what I saw against the Jets so we can develop a player that hasn't impressed me yet.

When we're mathematically eliminated, fine; bring in the guy and let's see his chops.

Personally I don't see anything in him that makes me think he can play at Orton's level.


I actually get the opposite impression when he is in there. I think the team and the stadium is energized. Tebow is a gamer.

HORSEPOWER 56
10-26-2010, 12:00 PM
Orton's not going anywhere next year if only for the potential lockout.

That all depends on the status of the coaching staff. A new coaching staff may not decide to keep him around and might trade him for draft picks.

LTC Pain
10-26-2010, 12:09 PM
Trade TT to the Cardinals for the player we should have taken, Dan Williams.

broncofaninfla
10-26-2010, 12:12 PM
Am I missing something did we just skip thru the last 9 games and I missed them.

One lousy game and your throwing a damned fine QB under the buss.
There is a remote possiblity that this team could be 11-5 yet.

Wow hysterical bunch non fans.
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11-5??? LMAO!!! I hope your right but I'm not seeing that at all. In fact I'm wondering when our next win will happen....

Who does this team actually beat this year? It isn't just about the Raider game, its about the general direction this team is headed and who is leading the charge. We are on a 4-13 run under Mcd with arguabely the worst loss in Broncos history last Sunday.

I'm not throwing Orton under the bus, he started out on fire but has since cooled as teams can exclusivly play the pass and beat Denver because we haven't been able to effectivly run the ball. Will Tebow bring Denver more wins this season, probably not BUT he'll get game reps in for next season and does add a demsionsion that can help the running game. Orton isn't the future of the franchise, Tebow is. I say let him get the game reps in to develope or show he even belongs in this league.

If I was a non fan I wouldn't give a crap about the direction Denver is headed nor the loss this past Sunday. Just because we don't agree on this doesn't make me a non fan.

I hope Mcd turns it around and makes a liar out of all that doubt him. If that happens that means Denver is winning and that is all I really want.

topscribe
10-26-2010, 01:22 PM
11-5??? LMAO!!! I hope your right but I'm not seeing that at all. In fact I'm wondering when our next win will happen....

Who does this team actually beat this year? It isn't just about the Raider game, its about the general direction this team is headed and who is leading the charge. We are on a 4-13 run under Mcd with arguabely the worst loss in Broncos history last Sunday.

I'm not throwing Orton under the bus, he started out on fire but has since cooled as teams can exclusivly play the pass and beat Denver because we haven't been able to effectivly run the ball. Will Tebow bring Denver more wins this season, probably not BUT he'll get game reps in for next season and does add a demsionsion that can help the running game. Orton isn't the future of the franchise, Tebow is. I say let him get the game reps in to develope or show he even belongs in this league.

If I was a non fan I wouldn't give a crap about the direction Denver is headed nor the loss this past Sunday. Just because we don't agree on this doesn't make me a non fan.

I hope Mcd turns it around and makes a liar out of all that doubt him. If that happens that means Denver is winning and that is all I really want.

Why are you laughing? JR said there is a REMOTE possibility.

And I'm not so certain Tebow is the future. I don't know how that can be
so absolutely proclaimed when he hasn't yet played even a full quarter in the
regular season. The truth is, nobody knows what the Broncos have in Tebow
at this time. But apparently McDaniels, who sees Tebow play every day, does
not believe Tebow is anywhere near ready. He has not allowed Tebow even
to throw a pass out of the wild-whatever yet. And there are those who want
to make him a full-time QB right now? Doesn't make sense to me . . .

-----

Superchop 7
10-26-2010, 01:45 PM
Actually, I would have put in Tebow during the second half of the Raiders game, there were many times that the QB could have scrambled for a first down. I think it would have pumped up the players a bit, maybe they would have taken off their skirts and put the pants back on.

I would start him at the point we have lost 8 games, for experience sake, plus a little fan interest in the team.

Northman
10-26-2010, 01:48 PM
Actually, I would have put in Tebow during the second half of the Raiders game, there were many times that the QB could have scrambled for a first down. I think it would have pumped up the players a bit, maybe they would have taken off their skirts and put the pants back on.

I would start him at the point we have lost 8 games, for experience sake, plus a little fan interest in the team.


Yea, being down 38-7 i saw many fans saying it wouldnt hurt. If this team isnt supposed to be good anyway according to some having Tebow get some valid playing time wouldnt of hurt at all. We werent getting anything done with Orton anyway at that point.

broncofaninfla
10-26-2010, 02:28 PM
Why are you laughing? JR said there is a REMOTE possibility.

And I'm not so certain Tebow is the future. I don't know how that can be
so absolutely proclaimed when he hasn't yet played even a full quarter in the
regular season. The truth is, nobody knows what the Broncos have in Tebow
at this time. But apparently McDaniels, who sees Tebow play every day, does
not believe Tebow is anywhere near ready. He has not allowed Tebow even
to throw a pass out of the wild-whatever yet. And there are those who want
to make him a full-time QB right now? Doesn't make sense to me . . .

-----

I'm not saying he is the future, I'm saying he was drafted in the first round to be the future though. I'd rather find out what we have in Tebow during a season like this rather than a season that we still have a chance. I know mathmetically Denver is still in teh hunt be lets be realistic. We are the weakest team in the AFC West right now, which is probably the weakest division in the NFL. That's not good especially considering the 4-13 run we are in now.

Since you are coming to JR's defense, how about coming to the defense of people being questioned as fans for being vocal about the current state of this team?

topscribe
10-26-2010, 02:38 PM
I'm not saying he is the future, I'm saying he was drafted in the first round to be the future though. I'd rather find out what we have in Tebow during a season like this rather than a season that we still have a chance. I know mathmetically Denver is still in teh hunt be lets be realistic. We are the weakest team in the AFC West right now, which is probably the weakest division in the NFL. That's not good especially considering the 4-13 run we are in now.

Since you are coming to JR's defense, how about coming to the defense of people being questioned as fans for being vocal about the current state of this team?

I did that and reaped salutes over it. Guess you missed it. And I am not defending
anybody. JR said there is a remote chance: Well, I say there is a remote chance.

And I don't know whether Denver is the weakest team in the AFC or the league
off one game. I do know they played some pretty good teams tough.

I'll wait to see where Denver stacks up in the AFCW and the league.
I'll wait to see whether Tebow will or will not make it as a starting QB.
I'll wait until it is a mathematical impossibility that Denver will make it before I
start laughing at the suggestion of a "remote" chance.

If you want to go on the defense, so be it. Knock yourself out. I'm just trying to
post some logic (for which I am incessantly flamed, BTW).

-----
do

NorCalBronco7
10-26-2010, 03:00 PM
Tebow will eventually get his chance, but not this year.

Theres no reason to stick Tebow in when Orton is playing well. The lack of success for the Broncos is not Ortons faults. Tebow will most likely be the backup and study the game till he is ready.

lgenf
10-27-2010, 04:40 PM
I am here (on this forum and cheering for the Broncos because of TT) and I do not want to see him starting yet, my reason for this.......I don't want him getting blamed for this poor play.

If Orton who is playing well (not great) is not getting the job done, there is no NO running game and the O Line is not taking care of their responsibilities I don't want Tebow getting thrown into that crap.

At least with a decent O Line and the threat of a running game TT gets a fair shot, but without that, Defenses will just T-off on him and that isn't going to help anyone develope.

no thank you, I care about TT too much to throw him out there and let all the haters jump on him

I Eat Staples
10-27-2010, 08:34 PM
Voted seek a trade. I'd accept a 3rd or 4th round pick for him. I like Tebow as a person and he was one of the greatest college football players of all time, but he'll never be able to succeed as an NFL QB.

topscribe
10-27-2010, 08:48 PM
Voted seek a trade. I'd accept a 3rd or 4th round pick for him. I like Tebow as a person and he was one of the greatest college football players of all time, but he'll never be able to succeed as an NFL QB.

You don't know that. I have questions, sure, but I'm not fond of such predictions.
The best thing is to find out. In my mind, he is anywhere from a bust to a
superstar . . . and that is not much to go on at this point, is it?

-----

I Eat Staples
10-27-2010, 08:56 PM
You don't know that. I have questions, sure, but I'm not fond of such predictions.
The best thing is to find out. In my mind, he is anywhere from a bust to a
superstar . . . and that is not much to go on at this point, is it?

-----

Well of course I don't know, but I'm pretty confident in my opinion. And at this point, I value my own over McD's.

I think his chances of being a bust are very high, and his chances of being a superstar are very low. I'm sure that opinion is unpopular around here, but oh well. How many of you honestly believed Tebow would be a great NFL QB before we drafted him, anyway? I'm curious. (Speaking to Broncos fans, not Tebow fans.)

topscribe
10-27-2010, 09:28 PM
Well of course I don't know, but I'm pretty confident in my opinion. And at this point, I value my own over McD's.

I think his chances of being a bust are very high, and his chances of being a superstar are very low. I'm sure that opinion is unpopular around here, but oh well. How many of you honestly believed Tebow would be a great NFL QB before we drafted him, anyway? I'm curious. (Speaking to Broncos fans, not Tebow fans.)

I'll admit, I was pissed when they drafted Tebow. Once again, they ignored the
defense for what I deeply suspected would be a project - which he is. And they
are paying for it today, IMO. Can you imagine what difference it would have made
in the rushing defense, had a good LB been playing back there, instead of
Haggan? That is what they could have drafted, instead of a project QB . . .

-----

Lonestar
10-27-2010, 10:33 PM
11-5??? LMAO!!! I hope your right but I'm not seeing that at all. In fact I'm wondering when our next win will happen....

Who does this team actually beat this year? It isn't just about the Raider game, its about the general direction this team is headed and who is leading the charge. We are on a 4-13 run under Mcd with arguabely the worst loss in Broncos history last Sunday.

I'm not throwing Orton under the bus, he started out on fire but has since cooled as teams can exclusivly play the pass and beat Denver because we haven't been able to effectivly run the ball. Will Tebow bring Denver more wins this season, probably not BUT he'll get game reps in for next season and does add a demsionsion that can help the running game. Orton isn't the future of the franchise, Tebow is. I say let him get the game reps in to develope or show he even belongs in this league.

If I was a non fan I wouldn't give a crap about the direction Denver is headed nor the loss this past Sunday. Just because we don't agree on this doesn't make me a non fan.

I hope Mcd turns it around and makes a liar out of all that doubt him. If that happens that means Denver is winning and that is all I really want.

There are 9 games to be played. Your telling me you do not think we can win one of them based on what you called the worst game we ever played. LMAO on that one I remember one game where we did not cross the fifty yard line on offense all day yet they put up 7 TDs in about first 3/4 of the game punting when they got in range of the south stands. The final score was 49-7 with us getting a KR run back by Goldie Sellers IIRC that was the worst game I ever saw.

If they had not had the Jets game won and a fluke penalty called during times (last few minutes) that unless it is blatant foul are not called but are non calls. Especially since it was uncatchable by the WR.
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PAINTERDAVE
10-28-2010, 01:16 AM
I love the Broncos.
I even like McD.. and I dont think he will be fired this season.
I like Orton... for what he is... a game manager.
I want the team to win.

That said...

I also accept reality.

JR... there is almost NO CHANCE that we will win out.
Bronco Fan in Fla... there is now way we wont win a few more.

But any dream of playoffs this year... that is pie in the sky.

Injuries just keep a comin'. No run game to speak of.
O-line is not cohesive at all. No pass rush.
Cox cant even remember the game.

This season WILL be in the tank pretty dang quick...

So that leaves us with a golden opportunity.
The pressure will be off.
We will asume the role of the spoiler.
The opportunity to get Tebow, and all the other rookies,
a boatload of real game experience is real and tangible, and it would be foolish to pass it up.

With first string practice, game plans designed for him,
and no pressure to "win in order to make the playoffs"...

Tebow will do fine.

He is a tough guy.

This is what he wants.

It starts soon.

It wont be like throwing him to the wolves ( the way it would have been in Q 4 against the Raiders)

It will be a measured, game planned, practiced real game experience for him week after week.

Other wise... what... we go in the tank and just throw the rest of the season away playing Orton?

What is the point?

We all know... Tebow is the future... the future is now.

Time to find out.

Had we won in Jax, beat the Jets, had Kyle not thrown a pic 6 on the first play from scrimage...

it would be different.

If's dont count.

Reality is what reality is.

I am into acceptance.

Other wise... the rest of this season makes absolutly no sense.

Life hands you lemons... you make lemonade.

Canmore
10-28-2010, 01:41 AM
Is Tebow the answer? That is the two dollar question.

PAINTERDAVE
10-28-2010, 10:10 AM
That is only one of the questions....

and there is only one way to find out.

Everyone last week was giddy with excitement about how easy the rest of this seasons schedule was.

Now that the Raiders destroyed our chances... the same people are "afraid" for Tebow...
saying he'll get "killed back there".

He's a tough guy.
There will be planning...
after the bye...

it just seems clear as cool water on a hot day...

once this team goes in the tank for sure ...

you use it productivly to develop the future.

If it was any NFL team with any NFL players in a similar position...
it would be a consensus.

Instead.. it is Tebow and everyone is treating him and his development as if it is a fragile thing.

He's tough. He wants it. It's time, based on circumstances.

No pressure any more....not as soon as we lose another one... and if KC keeps the heat up.

This just aint our year folks, and we need to find out what kind of tiger Tim has got in his tank.

BroncoNut
10-28-2010, 10:37 AM
He's over rated.

Trade him now before he's exposed and becomes worthless later.

He very well might be. I think there's a substantial possibility there actually

PAINTERDAVE
10-28-2010, 10:47 AM
Then let's find out now.

If he is no good... do we want to throw away 2011, 2012 ,and 2013 finding out?

There is NO WAY they are going to trade him away.
That simply is beyond reasonable supposition.

I'm out...
you all see where I come down on this topic.

Have a great day.

broncofaninfla
10-28-2010, 11:47 AM
There are 9 games to be played. Your telling me you do not think we can win one of them based on what you called the worst game we ever played. LMAO on that one I remember one game where we did not cross the fifty yard line on offense all day yet they put up 7 TDs in about first 3/4 of the game punting when they got in range of the south stands. The final score was 49-7 with us getting a KR run back by Goldie Sellers IIRC that was the worst game I ever saw.

If they had not had the Jets game won and a fluke penalty called during times (last few minutes) that unless it is blatant foul are not called but are non calls. Especially since it was uncatchable by the WR.
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I'm not basing this on just this one game, it's more the direction the team is headed. As winter approaches the running game becomes more and more important. Problem is we are dead last in the league in rushing and not improving at the rate we'll need to compete. Add to it our defensive line is getting blown off the ball and LB's are unable to shed blockers. Add also Mcd staff seems to get outcoached on a regular basis. I just don't see signs we are getting better at a time when the contenders seperate from the pretenders. Our performance to date doesn't even qualify us as a pretender though. This team is weak. I think we'll win a couple of games along the way but I see us finsihing dead last in the AFC west and in the top 5 of the draft.

I'll retract that I'd like to see Tebow now but when we are officially mathmeticaly eliminated, I want to see what we have in Tebow to get some sort of feel for the future needs for this team.

BroncoStud
10-28-2010, 12:38 PM
Tebow needs to start games at some point this season, it just seems there is no point in keeping Orton in there just to pad his stats when we all KNOW we won't win a Super Bowl with him playing QB, not now, not ever.

topscribe
10-28-2010, 12:41 PM
Tebow needs to start games at some point this season, it just seems there is no point in keeping Orton in there just to pad his stats when we all KNOW we won't win a Super Bowl with him playing QB, not now, not ever.

No, we don't all know that . . .

-----

BroncoStud
10-28-2010, 02:19 PM
No, we don't all know that . . .

-----

Ok, well perhaps if we go out and build a defense like the 2000 Ravens did Orton could pull out a Super Bowl. As it stands now, he is 4-13 in his last 17 games and is pretty much at his worst when we need him to be at his best...

:rolleyes:

NorCalBronco7
10-28-2010, 02:25 PM
Ok, well perhaps if we go out and build a defense like the 2000 Ravens did Orton could pull out a Super Bowl. As it stands now, he is 4-13 in his last 17 games and is pretty much at his worst when we need him to be at his best...

:rolleyes:

The 4-13 stat is......weak.

Orton is having a great season this year and is only behind Peyton in overall performance.

Look, if you were making these statements last year then I would be with you. But not now when Orton has obvioulsy elevated his game to another level.

BroncoStud
10-28-2010, 02:32 PM
The 4-13 stat is......weak.

Orton is having a great season this year and is only behind Peyton in overall performance.

Look, if you were making these statements last year then I would be with you. But not now when Orton has obvioulsy elevated his game to another level.

That's kind of the point, he has elevated his game to another level, and it isn't good enough to win many games. His ceiling is so low that when he peaks (which he possibly has) what good does that really do the Broncos?

If the season is lost, whether it be now or in 2 weeks, there is NO reason not to play our 1st round draft pick and see what value he really has. Why should the Broncos and the fans allow Orton to pad his stats and lose games when a 1st rounder with considerable talent is sitting on the bench?

There's really no more to it than that.

I Eat Staples
10-28-2010, 02:33 PM
I'll admit, I was pissed when they drafted Tebow. Once again, they ignored the
defense for what I deeply suspected would be a project - which he is. And they
are paying for it today, IMO. Can you imagine what difference it would have made
in the rushing defense, had a good LB been playing back there, instead of
Haggan? That is what they could have drafted, instead of a project QB . . .

-----

Exactly. The pick pissed me off because we had so many needs on defense, and we draft a project QB when I feel we already have a good starting QB in Orton.


Tebow needs to start games at some point this season, it just seems there is no point in keeping Orton in there just to pad his stats when we all KNOW we won't win a Super Bowl with him playing QB, not now, not ever.

I agree, only because by the time whoever takes over for McD fixes this team, Orton will probably have retired. :lol:

On a serious note, why can't we win a superbowl with Orton? I'd like to know the answer to this. You act like if we built a good team, Orton would single-handedly prevent us from winning a superbowl. I strongly disagree.

I Eat Staples
10-28-2010, 02:35 PM
That's kind of the point, he has elevated his game to another level, and it isn't good enough to win many games. His ceiling is so low that when he peaks (which he possibly has) what good does that really do the Broncos?

If the season is lost, whether it be now or in 2 weeks, there is NO reason not to play our 1st round draft pick and see what value he really has. Why should the Broncos and the fans allow Orton to pad his stats and lose games when a 1st rounder with considerable talent is sitting on the bench?

There's really no more to it than that.

Just saw this post. If it's not broken, don't fix it. Many aspects of this team are broken and need to be fixed. Orton is not one of them. Football is a team sport. Orton has done more than his share to contribute to the team, but very few other areas of our team have. Hence why we're 2-5.

BroncoStud
10-28-2010, 02:40 PM
Just saw this post. If it's not broken, don't fix it. Many aspects of this team are broken and need to be fixed. Orton is not one of them. Football is a team sport. Orton has done more than his share to contribute to the team, but very few other areas of our team have. Hence why we're 2-5.

I don't think Orton is broken, agree there, I just think from that standpoint it is a system that doesn't function at the level it NEEDS to function. I don't dislike Kyle by any means, he does a good job with the limited physical ability he has, but QB is a position which requires on-the-field time, and Tebow won't get that on the bench.

An elite QB requires less team around him than an Orton-type (Brad Johnson) QB does to win a Super Bowl. Tebow may or may not be an elite QB, but we won't find out unless he plays, and if the season is lost, it makes sense to play him.

I Eat Staples
10-28-2010, 02:46 PM
I don't think Orton is broken, agree there, I just think from that standpoint it is a system that doesn't function at the level it NEEDS to function. I don't dislike Kyle by any means, he does a good job with the limited physical ability he has, but QB is a position which requires on-the-field time, and Tebow won't get that on the bench.

An elite QB requires less team around him than an Orton-type (Brad Johnson) QB does to win a Super Bowl. Tebow may or may not be an elite QB, but we won't find out unless he plays, and if the season is lost, it makes sense to play him.

I guess our disagreement is on how good Orton and Tebow can be. I don't believe Tebow will ever be as good as Orton, let alone better. And even if you do believe Tebow may be very good, you do realize that if we bench Orton it's over between him and the Broncos. So if Tebow doesn't work out, we lose our one strong point, now adding another need to our already plentiful list of areas which need improvement.

And the season isn't lost, and even if it is, I think if we want to be a contender in the future we need to focus our attention on defense and a running game. Orton is fine.

NorCalBronco7
10-28-2010, 02:52 PM
That's kind of the point, he has elevated his game to another level, and it isn't good enough to win many games. His ceiling is so low that when he peaks (which he possibly has) what good does that really do the Broncos?

If the season is lost, whether it be now or in 2 weeks, there is NO reason not to play our 1st round draft pick and see what value he really has. Why should the Broncos and the fans allow Orton to pad his stats and lose games when a 1st rounder with considerable talent is sitting on the bench?

There's really no more to it than that.

Broncos

32nd Rush Offense
30 Rush Denfense
10 Pass Defense
3rd Pass Offense

Its not that Ortons not good enough to win games, its that the Broncos cannot run or stop the run at all. Team dont win games if they cant accomplish either (almost always).

Pinning the blame for the Broncos record on Orton, who is having a fantastic season, makes little sense when its obvious he not the problem.

Putting Tebow in if the season is lost makes a little bit of sense, but sitt on the bench for a couple years and learning the system is probably the much better appoach.

NorCalBronco7
10-28-2010, 03:00 PM
I don't think Orton is broken, agree there, I just think from that standpoint it is a system that doesn't function at the level it NEEDS to function. I don't dislike Kyle by any means, he does a good job with the limited physical ability he has, but QB is a position which requires on-the-field time, and Tebow won't get that on the bench.

An elite QB requires less team around him than an Orton-type (Brad Johnson) QB does to win a Super Bowl. Tebow may or may not be an elite QB, but we won't find out unless he plays, and if the season is lost, it makes sense to play him.

Ortons top 5-10 thus far is almost all meaningful Qb categories.

Ortons playing at a high level in McDaniels system.

topscribe
10-28-2010, 03:00 PM
Ok, well perhaps if we go out and build a defense like the 2000 Ravens did Orton could pull out a Super Bowl. As it stands now, he is 4-13 in his last 17 games and is pretty much at his worst when we need him to be at his best...

:rolleyes:

You are ignoring Orton's record before he ever came to the Broncos. He was then
one of the winningest QBs in football. You see, you are making the classic mistake:
Football is a team game. You cannot take a win or a loss in football, in which 45
players have been involved, and credit it or pin it on one player, even the QB.
When RBs have run roughshod over our defense, it isn't Orton who missed those
tackles. When the Broncos' RBs are averaging 1.7 YPC, it isn't Orton who has not
opened the hole for them.

When a RB or WR fumbles in the RZ, it isn't Orton who fumbled the ball (yes, it
is he who threw the INT, but he still did not create their fumbles). When a
tackle gets called for holding or illegal procedure, it is not Orton who did that.

Orton has made mistakes, to be sure. But there have been by far a lot more
mistakes than what he has committed. To just look at the W-L and consider
one player is an extremely shallow analysis . . .

-----

BroncoStud
10-28-2010, 03:27 PM
Broncos

32nd Rush Offense
30 Rush Denfense
10 Pass Defense
3rd Pass Offense

Its not that Ortons not good enough to win games, its that the Broncos cannot run or stop the run at all. Team dont win games if they cant accomplish either (almost always).

Pinning the blame for the Broncos record on Orton, who is having a fantastic season, makes little sense when its obvious he not the problem.

Putting Tebow in if the season is lost makes a little bit of sense, but sitt on the bench for a couple years and learning the system is probably the much better appoach.
While I don't disagree with anything you said, Denver DOES throw the ball a lot and this is essentially a spread offense, so the QB should put up a lot of yards. One would hope so anyway.

BroncoStud
10-28-2010, 03:29 PM
I guess our disagreement is on how good Orton and Tebow can be. I don't believe Tebow will ever be as good as Orton, let alone better. And even if you do believe Tebow may be very good, you do realize that if we bench Orton it's over between him and the Broncos. So if Tebow doesn't work out, we lose our one strong point, now adding another need to our already plentiful list of areas which need improvement.

And the season isn't lost, and even if it is, I think if we want to be a contender in the future we need to focus our attention on defense and a running game. Orton is fine.

I don't know how good Tebow will be, I don't think anyone does. I wasn't crazy about drafting him in the first place with so many team needs, but now it seems foolish not to find out, if we have no chance for a postseason.

It seems like we know how good Orton is, and in the right circumstance, he has shown he can put up pretty good numbers, but he doesn't seem to be able to make the plays we need him to make when they have to be made.

I don't think he has even the Cutler-ability to dominate defenses.

BroncoStud
10-28-2010, 03:33 PM
You are ignoring Orton's record before he ever came to the Broncos. He was then
one of the winningest QBs in football. You see, you are making the classic mistake:
Football is a team game. You cannot take a win or a loss in football, in which 45
players have been involved, and credit it or pin it on one player, even the QB.
When RBs have run roughshod over our defense, it isn't Orton who missed those
tackles. When the Broncos' RBs are averaging 1.7 YPC, it isn't Orton who has not
opened the hole for them.

When a RB or WR fumbles in the RZ, it isn't Orton who fumbled the ball (yes, it
is he who threw the INT, but he still did not create their fumbles). When a
tackle gets called for holding or illegal procedure, it is not Orton who did that.

Orton has made mistakes, to be sure. But there have been by far a lot more
mistakes than what he has committed. To just look at the W-L and consider
one player is an extremely shallow analysis . . .

-----

You never heard me blame a single Denver loss on Kyle Orton, and obviously football is a team sport. The problem I have is that this offense is predicated heavily on the pass, and Orton can't seem to WIN games when we need him to. Even Plummer was more clutch in the 4th quarter than Orton.

He is just a cautious QB who makes a minimal amount of risky throws and does his best not to lose games. That works on a team that has good running and defense, but the Broncos have neither. This team needs a QB who can carry them.

As far as the wins in Chicago, we will all agree that team had great defense and special teams. Rex Grossman led them to a Super Bowl, Rex Grossman.

NorCalBronco7
10-28-2010, 03:41 PM
I don't know how good Tebow will be, I don't think anyone does. I wasn't crazy about drafting him in the first place with so many team needs, but now it seems foolish not to find out, if we have no chance for a postseason.

It seems like we know how good Orton is, and in the right circumstance, he has shown he can put up pretty good numbers, but he doesn't seem to be able to make the plays we need him to make when they have to be made.

I don't think he has even the Cutler-ability to dominate defenses.

Ortons having a much better season than Cutler.

The Cutler ability is what, a strong arm? Ortons number one in deep throws this year. Is it Cutlers ability to read a defense?

Oh wait, thats not a physical attribute (seemingly your definition of potential) hmmmm.....what could it be?

Jake Klug
10-28-2010, 03:45 PM
This is purely driven by personal bias but for the sake of my fantasy team, they gotta stick with Orton.

I drafted Orton in around the 10th round and the guy routinely holds his own against the likes of Brees and Brady. Sure the stats may be fluff but they still count in fantasy football.

topscribe
10-28-2010, 03:48 PM
You never heard me blame a single Denver loss on Kyle Orton, and obviously football is a team sport. The problem I have is that this offense is predicated heavily on the pass, and Orton can't seem to WIN games when we need him to. Even Plummer was more clutch in the 4th quarter than Orton.

He is just a cautious QB who makes a minimal amount of risky throws and does his best not to lose games. That works on a team that has good running and defense, but the Broncos have neither. This team needs a QB who can carry them.

As far as the wins in Chicago, we will all agree that team had great defense and special teams. Rex Grossman led them to a Super Bowl, Rex Grossman.

No, we don't agree Chicago had a great defense. They were #30 in pass
defense in 2008. Look it up.

You are talking about 2005. Orton's rookie year. Just about every QB who has
ever played the game has stunk up the joint in their rookie year if they got to
play at all. Look it up.

So I'm not prepared to discuss the year that you claim Grossman led the Bears
to the Super Bowl. (Orton quarterbacked them to the playoffs in the first place.
Look it up.)

You are using last year's arguments. My suggestion is that you go back and
watch the games the Broncos have played so far, if you can do it open-mindedly.
Most of those who have been following the Broncos this year know better than
to use those arguments about Orton.

In fact, this is my last post in response to you on this specific issue. I don't say
that with any hostility at all - it's just that I don't feel like going back and
debating last year's issues.

Hope to talk to you on better things in the future. :)

-----

NorCalBronco7
10-28-2010, 03:49 PM
You never heard me blame a single Denver loss on Kyle Orton, and obviously football is a team sport. The problem I have is that this offense is predicated heavily on the pass, and Orton can't seem to WIN games when we need him to. Even Plummer was more clutch in the 4th quarter than Orton.

He is just a cautious QB who makes a minimal amount of risky throws and does his best not to lose games. That works on a team that has good running and defense, but the Broncos have neither. This team needs a QB who can carry them.

As far as the wins in Chicago, we will all agree that team had great defense and special teams. Rex Grossman led them to a Super Bowl, Rex Grossman.


Orton isnt cautious this year in his throwing. He attacks every part of the field and makes throws where he gives the WRs a chance to make a play. This arguments is outdated.

Again the Broncos dont need a qb that can carry them (I think Orton can), they need to stop the run and run the ball better. Your putting too much emphasis on the Qb postion when its obvious it not the problem this year.

Jake Klug
10-28-2010, 03:55 PM
Orton isnt cautious this year in his throwing. He attacks every part of the field and makes throws where he gives the WRs a chance to make a play. This arguments is outdated.

Again the Broncos dont need a qb that can carry them (I think Orton can), they need to stop the run and run the ball better. Your putting too much emphasis on the Qb postion when its obvious it not the problem this year.

Its possible that Orton is flying below radar because he's propped up by fluff stats and also because he isnt the worst problem. The fact that Denver has other problems doesnt mean Orton is the QB that can take Denver where it wants to go (which according to some is 4-13).

There are times when Orton needs to make plays to extend drives and he doesnt but part of that is because the offense is so one dimensional that teams dont even respect the run and Orton is going against teams defending the pass.

All I know is Orton has been fantasy football gold because the Broncos cant run the ball and also because they get behind and pass against softened defenses.

G_Money
10-28-2010, 04:12 PM
I don't see us starting Tebow minus a few more disasters.

Orton gives us a better chance to win individual games this year. Kyle knows the offense, he's playing as well as he has ever played, and he's done nothing to lose the job.

Is this like Drew Brees vs. Phillip Rivers? Not really. Drew Brees was winning like crazy the last couple years with SD, which is why Rivers stayed on the bench as a very expensive backup. Tebow doesn't cost anywhere near what Rivers cost, so we're not hurting that way by benching 7 mil a season in salary cap funds or whatever Rivers cost.

In our case, Orton is playing pretty well, but we're not winning anything. If and when the season is "lost" then you'd think seeing Tebow play and get experience would be more important than an extra win or two - providing Tebow is the future. If this was Orton's last year with us then I could see benching him for the last month if we're (say) 3-9 so that Tebow can get starting reps before his 2011 campaign begins.

We muddied the waters by extending Orton's contract a year. If we're gonna run with Orton this year and next, then Tebow can just be his backup and doesn't need to get into any games. Tebow knows how to be a backup. He did it fine as a freshman.

The only way I see Tim getting a shot this year is if we keep losing AND we plan to get him reps for "immediate future" needs. It might be easier to swallow losses in a rebuilding season with a rookie QB at the helm, but I don't see it happening unless things get even more dire.

~G

NorCalBronco7
10-28-2010, 04:19 PM
Its possible that Orton is flying below radar because he's propped up by fluff stats and also because he isnt the worst problem. The fact that Denver has other problems doesnt mean Orton is the QB that can take Denver where it wants to go (which according to some is 4-13).

There are times when Orton needs to make plays to extend drives and he doesnt but part of that is because the offense is so one dimensional that teams dont even respect the run and Orton is going against teams defending the pass.

All I know is Orton has been fantasy football gold because the Broncos cant run the ball and also because they get behind and pass against softened defenses.

Ortons not a probelm for the Denver Broncos at all. He is a strength for this squad.

Orton is a good enough Qb to take a team to the superbowl, IMO. I would not have said that last year, but watching him this year and all the progress he has made convinces me. Again attributing the 4-13 record is a completely weak argument, like the vague criticism that Orton doesnt make enough plays.

Honestly the argument against Orton is so vauge that it holds no weight. Where are the good arguments?

Jake Klug
10-28-2010, 04:34 PM
Ortons not a probelm for the Denver Broncos at all. He is a strength for this squad.

Orton is a good enough Qb to take a team to the superbowl, IMO. I would not have said that last year, but watching him this year and all the progress he has made convinces me. Again attributing the 4-13 record is a completely weak argument, like the vague criticism that Orton doesnt make enough plays.

Honestly the argument against Orton is so vauge that it holds no weight. Where are the good arguments?

Well, I never based evaluating Orton on the record of the team. Youre talking to the wrong guy with that response.

Much of the argument for Orton is driven by statistical output. I can tell you as one who watches his progress through my fantasy team, he gets a lot of production because of there being no running game and also because of scenarios where he has played against defenses that has softened. To his credit, defenses dont respect Denver's running game as its total garbage and so they load up against Orton for much of the game. He performs well sometimes but, like I said, other times his stats are fluff from volume passing or passing against defenses that have softened. Either way, Orton is like a perfect storm for getting good fantasy points.

Saying he's a strength of the team when the running game is garbage, isnt necessarily saying that much.

NorCalBronco7
10-28-2010, 04:44 PM
Well, I never based evaluating Orton on the record of the team. Youre talking to the wrong guy with that response.

Much of the argument for Orton is driven by statistical output. I can tell you as one who watches his progress through my fantasy team, he gets a lot of production because of there being no running game and also because of scenarios where he has played against defenses that has softened. To his credit, defenses dont respect Denver's running game as its total garbage and so they load up against Orton for much of the game. He performs well sometimes but, like I said, other times his stats are fluff from volume passing or passing against defenses that have softened. Either way, Orton is like a perfect storm for getting good fantasy points.

Saying he's a strength of the team when the running game is garbage, isnt necessarily saying that much.

The Broncos are only passing a little more than running this year despite the lack of running success.

Teams know the Broncos are a pass first team however, and still have a lot of trouble stopping Orton. Credit to the him and the scheme.

What do you mean in Orton is playing against D's that are softened?

Jake Klug
10-28-2010, 04:51 PM
The Broncos are only passing a little more than running this year despite the lack of running success.

Teams know the Broncos are a pass first team however, and still have a lot of trouble stopping Orton. Credit to the him and the scheme.

What do you mean in Orton is playing against D's that are softened?


That means theres been a few times this year where Im watching the process of my fantasy team and Denver gets behind and Orton gets numbers because of it.

PAINTERDAVE
10-29-2010, 01:21 AM
Argueing about Orton's worth is not the point.

That is a simple distraction from reality.

They traded a bucket of picks to draft Tebow...
they paid Tebow a ton of cash...
he is obviously gonna get a shot here very soon...

The extension of one year, for a few million,
locks Orton instead of allowing him to be a free agent...
so that they can TRADE him for some value.

Love him or hate him...
Ortons future is not as the long time starter for the broncos.

Love him or hate him...
Tebow will start for the Broncos at some point in the next 2 years.

That is the reality.
All this other stuff... about "trade Tebow while he still has value"
and "who says Orton can't take us to the Super bowl?"...

Those ideas are crazy town. Not in the cards.

Gotta play the hand you are dealt.

Once the season is in the tank...
it makes no sense at all not to get Tebow the experience he needs...
and will benefit from.

He is, after all, like it or not, gonna get his shot.

Hopefully behind a big, savy O-lineman we get in trade for Orton.

_________________
or... is there any chance Orton would want to be a Kubiak and have job security and be Tebow's back up?

Naw... I think he is gonna be a Steve DeBerg...
and keep on floating and playing elswhere... and elsewhere again.

NorCalBronco7
10-29-2010, 02:14 PM
Argueing about Orton's worth is not the point.

That is a simple distraction from reality.

They traded a bucket of picks to draft Tebow...
they paid Tebow a ton of cash...
he is obviously gonna get a shot here very soon...

The extension of one year, for a few million,
locks Orton instead of allowing him to be a free agent...
so that they can TRADE him for some value.

Love him or hate him...
Ortons future is not as the long time starter for the broncos.

Love him or hate him...
Tebow will start for the Broncos at some point in the next 2 years.

That is the reality.
All this other stuff... about "trade Tebow while he still has value"
and "who says Orton can't take us to the Super bowl?"...

Those ideas are crazy town. Not in the cards.

Gotta play the hand you are dealt.

Once the season is in the tank...
it makes no sense at all not to get Tebow the experience he needs...
and will benefit from.

He is, after all, like it or not, gonna get his shot.

Hopefully behind a big, savy O-lineman we get in trade for Orton.

_________________
or... is there any chance Orton would want to be a Kubiak and have job security and be Tebow's back up?

Naw... I think he is gonna be a Steve DeBerg...
and keep on floating and playing elswhere... and elsewhere again.

Although I completely understand where you are coming from, I dont believe Ortons future with the Broncos is written in stone.

The money Tebow is getting is leauge minimum for his draft slot. I think around 7-8 mil. Infact Tebows contract is such that the more snaps he takes and the more wins he gets, the more gets paid. Its definitly not about the money as to why Tebow would start.

Tebow is a 1st round pick, but if he cannot beat out Orton, then he shouldnt and most likely wont start. McDaniels has stated numerous times the best players will play reguardless. Im not sure he feels pressure to play Tebow because he is a first round pick like many of the fans do.

Orton this year has taken his game to another level and I could see him as the future franchise qb for the Broncos. If Orton plays at an elite level and is on the brink of being outside the group of the best Qbs in the leauge, why would anybody trade him away? It would be a major mistake for the Broncos.

The argument I always hear is essentially Tebow will get his chance despite what Orton is able to accomplish. Thats bull. If Orton is becoming a great Qb then he will be the future. Will he? IDK. I hope so.

PAINTERDAVE
10-30-2010, 04:09 AM
Good point. Very well could happen...

It would be a tough road for him... with only 4 wins out of 17 in the last calender year.

The short throw behind the reciever for the pic 6 to start the Raider game sticks in my mind.

You could be right...

Personaly, I dont think it will work that way...
but it could.

The future is unwritten.

Time will tell.

Canmore
10-30-2010, 04:22 AM
Argueing about Orton's worth is not the point.

That is a simple distraction from reality.

They traded a bucket of picks to draft Tebow...
they paid Tebow a ton of cash...
he is obviously gonna get a shot here very soon...

The extension of one year, for a few million,
locks Orton instead of allowing him to be a free agent...
so that they can TRADE him for some value.

Love him or hate him...
Ortons future is not as the long time starter for the broncos.

Love him or hate him...
Tebow will start for the Broncos at some point in the next 2 years.

That is the reality.
All this other stuff... about "trade Tebow while he still has value"
and "who says Orton can't take us to the Super bowl?"...

Those ideas are crazy town. Not in the cards.

Gotta play the hand you are dealt.

Once the season is in the tank...
it makes no sense at all not to get Tebow the experience he needs...
and will benefit from.

He is, after all, like it or not, gonna get his shot.

Hopefully behind a big, savy O-lineman we get in trade for Orton.

_________________
or... is there any chance Orton would want to be a Kubiak and have job security and be Tebow's back up?

Naw... I think he is gonna be a Steve DeBerg...
and keep on floating and playing elswhere... and elsewhere again.

I think you have very valid points. McD is tied to Tebow and we are going to see him soon enough. I hope the best player plays and I don't know who that is, but 4-13 is not getting it done.

claymore
10-30-2010, 07:05 AM
If we blow this game, throw him in and see if he is one of the few players on this team worth moving forward with.

If we win this game we will have to ride it out till the next losing streak, and when we are eliminated from the playoffs.

TXBRONC
10-30-2010, 09:43 AM
Although I completely understand where you are coming from, I dont believe Ortons future with the Broncos is written in stone.

The money Tebow is getting is leauge minimum for his draft slot. I think around 7-8 mil. Infact Tebows contract is such that the more snaps he takes and the more wins he gets, the more gets paid. Its definitly not about the money as to why Tebow would start.

Tebow is a 1st round pick, but if he cannot beat out Orton, then he shouldnt and most likely wont start. McDaniels has stated numerous times the best players will play reguardless. Im not sure he feels pressure to play Tebow because he is a first round pick like many of the fans do.

Orton this year has taken his game to another level and I could see him as the future franchise qb for the Broncos. If Orton plays at an elite level and is on the brink of being outside the group of the best Qbs in the leauge, why would anybody trade him away? It would be a major mistake for the Broncos.

The argument I always hear is essentially Tebow will get his chance despite what Orton is able to accomplish. Thats bull. If Orton is becoming a great Qb then he will be the future. Will he? IDK. I hope so.

It will take more than just good stats to keep Orton in Denver long term because teams just don't make the kind of investment unless they're convinced that player is convinced that guy is long term solution. What he's being paid isn't the issue imo the fact that McDaniels went to the lengths that he did speaks volumes.
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Lonestar
10-30-2010, 10:08 AM
I think you have very valid points. McD is tied to Tebow and we are going to see him soon enough. I hope the best player plays and I don't know who that is, but 4-13 is not getting it done.

While the mythical 4-13 is not great.(He is really 10-13) does anyone really think that other than the last game it is orton that cost us any of those other losses.

By putting in a raw NOT ready 2-3 year project guy in will make the QB spot better. How will that help the passing game or for that matter make the running game better

I'm a huge Tewbow fan as I believe he has all the tangibiles to be a FQB putting him in before he is ready will not do him any favors nor win us anymore games than Orton will.

When Y'all understand that the QB spot is not the reason for all of those 13 losses the sooner we can move on.

Determine the real cause and fix it then we get better. Changing QB is not the answer, I want to play with the shinny new toy as much as anyone but like having to wait till is is put together like a model airplane an the glue dries. Does nothing but set back the readiness or break it all together.
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Ravage!!!
10-30-2010, 10:23 AM
Our offense isn't scoring. Obviously the QB isn't "the" problem (that would be the coach)... at the same time, Orton is doing exactly what he's always done. Win IF (IF) the other team doesn't score. He was winning when our defense was holding opponents to ZERO points in the second half of the games. Once that stopped, we started losing because we can't put points on the board. That has been something I've pointed out since game 5 of last year.

Orton is playing solid football, but he isn't the guy that we can really rely on to be "that" guy, because he just doesn't put points on the board. The BEST QBs in the NFL right now, played/started when they were rookies. They have been doing that for the last 25 years.

The theory that "putting him in too early is going to ruin him".... is bunk. Its an excuse. Its justifying spending so much to get Tebow and leaving him on the sidelines.

I don't think its time to start Tebow because I think the coaching staff is realizing, HOLY CRAP, this kid REALLY doesn't know how to read defenses, and is a bigger project than they hoped. I know its hard to believe, but McD's talent evaluation hasn't exactly been top-notch when it comes to draftees. Its VERY possible he just missed the boat on this one, as well.

PAINTERDAVE
10-30-2010, 01:26 PM
If Tebow is sub par... and a bad pick... that would be tragic.

Thing is... time to find out is when the team goes in the tank.

It is a unique opportunity to "put the model plane together" so to speak.

Leaving it sit on the box on the shelf is not gonna get it glued together.

If we were making a credible run... it would be a non issue.

We aren't credible at all however...
and it is not about making our passing game better...
or frankly, even winning (once the mathematical line is crossed)

It is about using these real time games as training ground for the future.

It is on old story in the NFL... the Broncos simply have not been here for a long time.

In point of fact... it is a very GOOD thing we drafted Tebow and have a project to work on.

Can you imagine if we had no "shiny new toy" to get out of the box?

Crikey... then this useless season would truly be wasted.

As it is... we can use it to develop our future.

This is the silver lining of the raincloud of this horrible season.

Lonestar
10-30-2010, 02:32 PM
If Tebow is sub par... and a bad pick... that would be tragic.

Thing is... time to find out is when the team goes in the tank.

It is a unique opportunity to "put the model plane together" so to speak.

Leaving it sit on the box on the shelf is not gonna get it glued together.

If we were making a credible run... it would be a non issue.

We aren't credible at all however...
and it is not about making our passing game better...
or frankly, even winning (once the mathematical line is crossed)

It is about using these real time games as training ground for the future.

It is on old story in the NFL... the Broncos simply have not been here for a long time.

In point of fact... it is a very GOOD thing we drafted Tebow and have a project to work on.

Can you imagine if we had no "shiny new toy" to get out of the box?

Crikey... then this useless season would truly be wasted.

As it is... we can use it to develop our future.

This is the silver lining of the raincloud of this horrible season.

While I understand your thoughts IF Josh does not think he is ready he needs to be taken out of the box so to speak but not thrown togather just to see IF the toy works or not.

Many flying models are very complex and take time to put together and FINISH them.

I'm not saying he never sees the field over the next two years but IMO just like Rivers rodgers and quite afew other qualitu qbs setting and learning the playbook and working on their mechanics DID not hurt their gane at all.

I love the pick but also know he is not ready to start. How many first round picks were ruined because the coach or owner got ansy and threw them to the wolves.

Something we may never know.

The male bovine excrement of he is a #1 pick and we have tons of money invested in him. Is just that BS many #1 picks are brought around slowly QBs included.

Brining in jay in 06 certainly did nothing IMO but blow up in mikes face when he proudly stated "he was the best chance to win". We all know he would have started him day one had he not alraedy blew up a locker room by starting greise before he was ready.

No sense in making the same mistake as long as Orton is not costing us games or Quinn is unable to do the job.

So far other than a pick and a fumble Orton has not cost us any games this year with poor play.
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Northman
10-30-2010, 02:37 PM
If Tebow is sub par... and a bad pick... that would be tragic.

Thing is... time to find out is when the team goes in the tank.

It is a unique opportunity to "put the model plane together" so to speak.

Leaving it sit on the box on the shelf is not gonna get it glued together.

If we were making a credible run... it would be a non issue.

We aren't credible at all however...
and it is not about making our passing game better...
or frankly, even winning (once the mathematical line is crossed)

It is about using these real time games as training ground for the future.

It is on old story in the NFL... the Broncos simply have not been here for a long time.

In point of fact... it is a very GOOD thing we drafted Tebow and have a project to work on.

Can you imagine if we had no "shiny new toy" to get out of the box?

Crikey... then this useless season would truly be wasted.

As it is... we can use it to develop our future.

This is the silver lining of the raincloud of this horrible season.


I would agree with you however its quite clear that McD believes that he is playing for the playoffs. If he were worried about a true rebuild he would do exactly as you stated but with the way the division is i dont see it happening.

NorCalBronco7
10-30-2010, 03:45 PM
Our offense isn't scoring. Obviously the QB isn't "the" problem (that would be the coach)... at the same time, Orton is doing exactly what he's always done. Win IF (IF) the other team doesn't score. He was winning when our defense was holding opponents to ZERO points in the second half of the games. Once that stopped, we started losing because we can't put points on the board. That has been something I've pointed out since game 5 of last year.

Orton is playing solid football, but he isn't the guy that we can really rely on to be "that" guy, because he just doesn't put points on the board. The BEST QBs in the NFL right now, played/started when they were rookies. They have been doing that for the last 25 years.

The theory that "putting him in too early is going to ruin him".... is bunk. Its an excuse. Its justifying spending so much to get Tebow and leaving him on the sidelines.

I don't think its time to start Tebow because I think the coaching staff is realizing, HOLY CRAP, this kid REALLY doesn't know how to read defenses, and is a bigger project than they hoped. I know its hard to believe, but McD's talent evaluation hasn't exactly been top-notch when it comes to draftees. Its VERY possible he just missed the boat on this one, as well.

Its unreasonable to put all the Broncos scoring woes on Orton. The offense is still only averaging over 19 points a game, but the lack of running game is contributing to the lack of scoring more than anything. Thats not a good reason to start Tebow or lable Orton "not that guy". He cant do it all himself.

Ive read a lot of opinions about how some fans would like to see Tebow in if the Broncos are out of the playoff race to get him experience. But if Orton gives us the best chance of winning next year(which I beleive he will), then why would the Broncos stunt his growth? It doesnt make sense. Tebow will start when he is officially the leader of the Broncos or because of injury, not because he needs NFL experience.

My belief is the Broncos are going to open their 2011 season with Orton as the Qb. His contract extention and ability level this year have led me to this conclusion.

PAINTERDAVE
10-30-2010, 06:21 PM
Many of us do not think Orton will be the guy next year.

I think Orton's contract extension was smart...
it keeps him from becoming a free agent...
and if he wont be a team player and take a backup role once Tebow starts...
I believe he will be traded.

Time will tell.

broncohead
10-30-2010, 08:37 PM
Though I don't think Orton has cost us games but the QB position is the first position looked at when losing

Lonestar
10-30-2010, 08:39 PM
Though I don't think Orton has cost us games but the QB position is the first position looked at when losing

By the fans it is by the coaches and owners they will find the real reasons and fix those issues.

Lonestar
10-30-2010, 08:46 PM
Many of us do not think Orton will be the guy next year.

I think Orton's contract extension was smart...
it keeps him from becoming a free agent...
and if he wont be a team player and take a backup role once Tebow starts...
I believe he will be traded.

Time will tell.

unless something mammoth happens between now and the start of next year Orton will be the starter.

By mammoth I mean Orton is paralyzed on a blind side hit, or Tebow is better than Orton's record setting pace this year.

DO you really think either of those are possible? Seriously

Everyone has said Tebow will take 2-3 years to develop his mechanics, learn to read Pro defenses, and get up to game speed. Now you think he will be ready next year!

I do nto see him beating out Orton next year the way things are going now. Last year could have happened. The only reason Orton is gone is because of contract issues in 2012.

Northman
10-30-2010, 09:01 PM
By the fans it is by the coaches and owners they will find the real reasons and fix those issues.

So then Shanahan was correct in drafting Cutler because he saw the problem there right? :D;)

spikerman
10-30-2010, 09:09 PM
So then Shanahan was correct in drafting Cutler because he saw the problem there right? :D;)


:behindsofa::popcorn:

Lonestar
10-30-2010, 09:11 PM
So then Shanahan was correct in drafting Cutler because he saw the problem there right? :D;)

maybe maybe not

I for one think he wanted a cannon armed QB and made a huge mistake in doing so.. thought he had the Next Elway.

but then that is just me.

Ravage!!!
10-30-2010, 11:10 PM
I rmeember people saying that Cutler was going to sit behind Plummer for 2+ years as well. Same situation here. Orton is ok, but he's not the big time QB that you just expect to be the leader of your franchise for years. Thats why we drafted Tebow. Coaches do NOT spend 1st round picks for someone they don't/wont' use for 2 more years, especially if htey don't know if they will be around that long.

Orton isn't the kind of QB that is just "not replaceable." If Tebow gets in the game this year due to our record (and believe he will) then he will be the starter next season. No sense in going backwards with him.

CHIEFSfanMURDERER
10-30-2010, 11:13 PM
Don't go to Tebow until you are officially eliminated, which would be 8 or 9 losses.

BroncoWave
10-30-2010, 11:14 PM
I rmeember people saying that Cutler was going to sit behind Plummer for 2+ years as well. Same situation here. Orton is ok, but he's not the big time QB that you just expect to be the leader of your franchise for years. Thats why we drafted Tebow. Coaches do NOT spend 1st round picks for someone they don't/wont' use for 2 more years, especially if htey don't know if they will be around that long.

Orton isn't the kind of QB that is just "not replaceable." If Tebow gets in the game this year due to our record (and believe he will) then he will be the starter next season. No sense in going backwards with him.

Totally agreed. Unless you have a Brett Favre type QB, first round QBs just don't ride the bench for 1+ years in the NFL anymore. Hell even Josh Freeman who was one of the biggest project first rounders in recent memory started as a rookie.

Northman
10-30-2010, 11:15 PM
I rmeember people saying that Cutler was going to sit behind Plummer for 2+ years as well.

I was one of them, at least for a year. Than Jake tanked and forced Mike's hand to make a change.

broncohead
10-31-2010, 12:39 AM
By the fans it is by the coaches and owners they will find the real reasons and fix those issues.

Orton won't win games for the team. He also won't lose any. He's a good game manager and thats it. Most coaches want QBs who win them games when it counts

NorCalBronco7
10-31-2010, 12:39 AM
I rmeember people saying that Cutler was going to sit behind Plummer for 2+ years as well. Same situation here. Orton is ok, but he's not the big time QB that you just expect to be the leader of your franchise for years. Thats why we drafted Tebow. Coaches do NOT spend 1st round picks for someone they don't/wont' use for 2 more years, especially if htey don't know if they will be around that long.

Orton isn't the kind of QB that is just "not replaceable." If Tebow gets in the game this year due to our record (and believe he will) then he will be the starter next season. No sense in going backwards with him.

The Plummer/Cutler would only be a good example if Orton starts to tank it. Plummer in 06' was horrible with 11td 13 int year 68 qbr and 7 fumbles. He was garbage that year. Cutler started because of the lack of success of Plummer, not because shanny wanted to get his prized 1st round pick experience.

So far this year Ortons been doing better than ok. Infact MUCH better.

2nd Passing Yards
5th Yards Per Attempt
T-7 TDs
T-22 Ints
8th Qb rating

All the while behind a questionable oline whos given up the 3rd most sacks all season.

If Orton keeps playing stellar then Tebow wont get his chance this year or next. After that, who knows? Maybe Orton will start to suck. Maybe the Broncos let Orton go to free agency and give the keys to Tebow. Maybe Orton goes to back to back pro bowls, becomes an elite Qb and is deemed the Broncos franchise Qb.

We'll see.




Totally agreed. Unless you have a Brett Favre type QB, first round QBs just don't ride the bench for 1+ years in the NFL anymore. Hell even Josh Freeman who was one of the biggest project first rounders in recent memory started as a rookie.

The Broncos situation is different than Tampas because Freeman started out of necessity. Freeman was essentially competing with himself. On the other hand the Broncos have the luxury of developing there 1st rounder while a solid vetern Qb holds the job down. Almost all (I cant think of any) 1st round picks that did start early in their career never started over a solid vetern (ala Orton). NFL teams and patience fans tend to want to wait until their "future" Qb is absolutly ready.

BroncoStud
10-31-2010, 02:47 PM
It's hilarious how I've been basically laughed at and scoffed at for my opinion that Orton is holding the offense back. Now look at us, against the Raiders and the 49ers, multiple turnovers, few 3rd down conversions, no pocket presence, sliding 1 yard short of an important 3rd down coversion, scoring very few points...

As most on here, I'm a lifelong Broncos fan and it's hard to sit here and watch Kyle Orton checkdown on almost every play, make very few throws of importance, cringe at the thought of contact with the defense, and failing OVER AND OVER AGAIN to convert crucial 3rd downs.

His stats look decent after the games on Sunday, but in the end he has done very little to help Denver win games. I want a QB with some heart who can inspire this team. Orton is just a checkdown QB who panics in the pocket. If Tebow isn't the guy start looking for him, Kyle is AT MOST a stopgap for a real QB.