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View Full Version : Pass protection in Raiders game: Breakdown of every pass play in the game



Tned
09-18-2007, 06:34 PM
Due to some comments saying the pass protection wasn't good, and others saying it was, I decided to do a play by play breakdown.

Not the prettiest formatting, but I am not in a 'formatting' frame of mind.

Pass | Result
1 play action backpeddling almost sacked
2 straight drop released pass with rusher 2 steps away coming unblocked - in complete
3 bootleg run, no pass, no gain.
4 straigh drop no pressure completed
5 Play action, pack peddling released rusher three steps away coming free - in complete
6 Shotgun - pocket collapsing, throws with DE waving arm in his face, complete to marshal, fist down.
7 drop back on the goal line, no pressure, incomplete
8 straight drop (from ten, after Cutler running TD called back), both left tackle and guard beat, cutler steps up, out of pocket, TD Stokely
End of 1st Quarter - 7 or 8 passes, depending on whether the bootleg right was a designed run or scramble by Jay.
7 passes - 5 plays had pressure, 4 of them effected the play (back peddling or quick release)
9 Play action - Rusher in Jay's face as soon as he turned following play fake, quick release, complete Graham.
10 Play action - minimal pressure (being released low right after ball left hand) - intercepted (pressure likely not cause)
11 Play action, quick hit/screen complete to walker - Lepsis beat by end, but designed quick hit, pressure didn't effect play
12 Short Drop, left end comes unblocked (Sapp wiffs on cut block) hits Cutler right after releasing ball, incomplete - PI
13 Straight drop, right guard is beat, but cutler gets ball away right before getting grabbed by DT. - complete Walker
End of 2nd Quarter - 5 pass play - pass blocking breaks down on 4 of the 5 (almost 5, but the right guard held of the DT just long enough)
3 of the 5 plays Cutler hit right as or after releasing ball. 1 additional Lepsis completely beat, but not a factor because of quick hit
14 Straigh drop, pocket completely intact, throw to walker for 9 yard gain
15 Play action right, Cutler turns from play fake right into rush, quick back peddle throw to Sapp (great reaction by Cutler)
16 Straight Drop, RT completely beat by DE, Cutler back peddles dumps to Henry.
17 Straight drop, blitzing DB - blind side - TE doesn't chip, Henry doesn't see and runs right past - Cutler is hit right as/after releasing -- comlete sapp 2 yards
18 Straigh drop, pocket holds, complete over middle to Marshall
19 Short drop, right guard beat, Cutler has enough time, throw not rushed -- 2 yard gain to young
20 Straight drop - Lepsis and right guard beat, end and tackle reach/hit Cutler as he releases ball -- complete, but PI on Marshall
21 Shotgun - Left Guard beat, Cutler hit and whipped around right after releasing ball - complete henry 4 yards
22 Playaction drom own 7, plenty of time, DE eventually came free after 3+ seconds, high throw to Marshall incomplete
23 Playaction - Cutler in Endzone after drop, DE loops and comes untouched up the middle, hits Cutler right after releasing ball complete to Marshall - Holding called back
End of Third Quarter -- 10 pass plays -- 6 Plays Cutler is either rushed or hit right after releasing ball
24 Play action from 4, cutler has end in his face when turning back from play fake in endzone, has to make fade away jump pass over DE complete to Walker at LOS - 4 yard gain.
25 Shotgun from 9 - TD bowls over LG, sacks Cutler in endzone for safety.
26 Play action from own 6 minimal pressure complete to Walker - 12 yards
27 quick hit 2 stop drop - pass to Marshall
28 straight drop - quick pass to Sapp, incomplete, RT falls down, DE stunts inside, untouched, but do to quick hit it wasn't a factor
29 Straight drop, RT badly beat, Lepsis shoved back -- DE waves arm and deflects pass -- pick six
30 two step drop, pocket collapsing, but not a factor due to quick hit -- incomplete to Walker -- Almost picked off - off Walker's back shoulder
31 Shotgun, DE beats lepsis but falls at Cutler's feet, DT beats Nalen/RG, hits Cutler as/after releasing ball, complete to Stokely.
32 straight drop -- pocket holds 10 yard gain to Walker
33 straight drop - LE comes in untouched, DB?LB comes untouched from other side, Cutler throws fade away incomplete to Walker in endzone
34 Shotgun - pocket holds, throw to Walker short of goal line
End of 4th Quarter 11 pass plays -- 4 plays pressure was a factor, 2 others pocket failed but not factor due to quick-hit type plays
35 Play ection, fake end around - no pressure complete to Walker
36 Straight Drop - DT blows by LG, Cutler throws flat footed leaning back, gets hit as throwing, incomplete to Sapp (great throw by Cutler) - punt
37 Play action -- Lepsis beat, DT comes through untouched -- DT and DE hit Cutler as/right after releasing ball -- completes dump off to Bell 8 yards
38 Play action/boot leg (might not have been designed rollout, as DE came untouched and Jay had to escape sack) right - Just avoids sack -- complete to Marshall
End of OT -- 4 pass plays - 3 plays effected by pressure.
Total 38 pass plays --- 24 plays had moderate to severe pressure that either forced Cutler to throw early or he was hit right after releasing ball or rusher was coming untouched and within a step or two of hitting Cutler. Another 3 or 4 where the rush was only a non-factor because of the 'quick hit' plays they started employing in the second half.

TXBRONC
09-18-2007, 09:15 PM
You've some dedication there Tned. One comment I have is that Jay's second interception was a tipped pass. I know you probably had this in there and I just didn't see it.

DenBronx
09-18-2007, 09:18 PM
i think cutler works good in the shotgun. also that bootleg throw to walker would have looked just like the one he threw in arizona last year but he undershot him a bit. i think he hung on to the ball too long...next time he should just gun it and let walkers legs catch up to it...at least put it out of reach of the db.

Lonestar
09-18-2007, 09:18 PM
Good job Again, I have not had the time to study the game. But what you stated pretty much agreed what I had thought I saw. Lots of pressure by a damned good pass defense.

We have to come up with a better protection scheme or he is gonna get killed and concussed out of the league.

Remember folks that this line is still designed for finesse Zone blocking and not the pocket passing that Jay is.

Pressure in his face all day will do one of two things make him better as a learning experience or make him mistake prone. Lets hope it is the former and the DC's do not make the other book on him.

Tned
09-18-2007, 09:20 PM
You've some dedication there Tned. One comment I have is that Jay's second interception was a tipped pass. I know you probably had this in there and I just didn't see it.

Number 29 - Pick six

Requiem / The Dagda
09-18-2007, 09:22 PM
Replace Pears and Holland now. You damn right Shanahan hopes that Harris can practice. Those turds could be supplanted.

frenchfan
09-19-2007, 04:19 AM
Great post Tned... Thank you for your work...

It seemed that our O-Line is really not at its best...
How did Cutler and Henry manage to put those numbers?

I didn't see the games (thanks French TV :mad: )... But after reading this I really wonder if one of the reason we didn't score more points is that our O-Line is outplayed near the goal line... What's your point about it?

sneakers
09-19-2007, 04:26 AM
It's post like that would make me suggest that he change his name to "tnerd". ;)

One must remember that the raiders do have a very good defense, and you can't so much blame our O-line, but give some credit to the raider's d-line.

frenchfan
09-19-2007, 04:30 AM
It's post like that would make me suggest that he change his name to "tnerd". ;)

One must remember that the raiders do have a very good defense, and you can't so much blame our O-line, but give some credit to the raider's d-line.Tnerd... :laugh: ... Excellent one Sneakie !!!!

Yeah... Of course, D is a part of the problem... Give also credit the D, but I guess our O-Line could be better, couldn't it?

Tned
09-19-2007, 07:33 AM
It's post like that would make me suggest that he change his name to "tnerd". ;)

One must remember that the raiders do have a very good defense, and you can't so much blame our O-line, but give some credit to the raider's d-line.

LOL, on the name.

While I highlighted this game, I did it in response to a year long (or so) trend of a lot of posters disagreeing with the media and those of us that say that pass protection, especially during drop back passing, is a weakness of this team.

We shall see if it proves that Oakland and Buffalo prove to be much tougher defenses than SD, Indy, Pitt and the other teams we will play this year, and whether or not that just made them look bad. I hope so, but in the end, I think the only way the poor pass protection is going to be overcome is by creative play calling, just like the previous 3, 4 , 5... years.

Joel
09-19-2007, 08:57 AM
With all due respect to a typically well thought out and researched analysis, I don't think that's a very useful way to look at it. Whether a rusher was about to come free from a block is a pretty arbitrary decision. Even deciding if there was a legit pass rush can be, albeit to a much lesser extent. Fact is, Cutler had really solid numbers--except for the 2 picks that drop his Passer Rating from very good to just under 80. I don't think it's really fair to credit the 300 yards, near 2/3 completion percentage and TD entirely to him and then blame the two picks all on the line (though it's hard to argue with the safety).

It's too soon to tell, IMHO, but as far as the "we do/n't need bigger linemen!1!" debate, if the pass protection WAS poor, it's a poor argument for bigger linemen. Myers is bigger than Hamilton, and Holland is easily the biggest lineman we have now that Foster is gone (and if I was gonna go bigger it WOULD be at guard... ) so if the pass protection was poor the solution is something a little more complex than hiring out retired sumos.... ;) At this point I would credit any problems to the fact we have two out of five of last years starters in right now. The greater concern, IMHO, is we don't seem to be having any more success running right, and that's bad in a lot of ways; when the chips are down and the game's on the line, we run left behind Lepsis, Hamilton (or Myers, now) and Nalen, just as we have for several years, and every AFC DC can tell you that. Worse, Hamilton, our best pulling guard, is out with an injury now, and if we can't run right....

Hopefully once they have more game time together as a unit they'll start to become more cohesive, because four HoF offensive linemen and one scrub are nothing more or less than a sack machine lucky to average three yards a run. The flip side though is that I do think it's too soon to tell; even if Pears, Holland and/or Myers are doing really well together, if so much as one of them falls down the whole line is Swiss cheese as defenses exploit the weakness and the rest of the line tries to compensate.

anton...
09-19-2007, 09:33 AM
do you ever sleep nedy??

;)
________
DOMINANTRIX (http://camslivesexy.com/cam/DOMINANTRIX)

broncosfanscott
09-19-2007, 05:41 PM
i think cutler works good in the shotgun. also that bootleg throw to walker would have looked just like the one he threw in arizona last year but he undershot him a bit. i think he hung on to the ball too long...next time he should just gun it and let walkers legs catch up to it...at least put it out of reach of the db.

If I remeber correctly wasn't Marshall wide open running across the field and would have been a gain of about 20-30 yds.? However, on the throw to Walker, he definatly held on too long.

konnorrollison
09-19-2007, 08:42 PM
wow long post but yea i agree

Tned
09-19-2007, 08:45 PM
wow long post but yea i agree

One of my shortest posts ever. lol

konnorrollison
09-19-2007, 08:47 PM
One of my shortest posts ever. lol

agreed :defense::defense:

Retired_Member_001
09-20-2007, 05:03 AM
As many must know by now I am not a fan of our offensive line at all. I thought our pass blocking against the Bills was bad, people go on about sacks allowed in that game but Cutler had to rush just about every throw. It was terrible.

I actually thought the pass blocking against Oakland was abit better, our run blocking was a complete joke though. Travis and Selvin broke a couple of big ones but apart from that all rushes were 2 yard gains.

There's not much we can do now but I really think next off-season we need to bring in some new offensive lineman.

I'd like a new LT (yes, Lepsis's injury has cut his career short), RG and RT could be problems if Pears can't pull it together QUICKLY and if Kuper can't prove to Shanahan he deserves to be starting.

I'd like our offensive line to look like this next game:

LT - Lepsis
LG - Myers
C - Nalen
RG - Kuper (Holland can't do any worse)
RT - (Find someone in FA to replace Pears, even if they aren't good it may motivate Pears more and get him to concentrate)

Pears at starting RT is scary to me.

Kuper hasn't proved he is good enough yet but he can't do any worse than Montrae Holland (run blocking wise) so I think Kuper should be starting over Montrae.

Our offensive line is below average at best.

sneakers
09-20-2007, 05:25 AM
As many must know by now I am not a fan of our offensive line at all. I thought our pass blocking against the Bills was bad, people go on about sacks allowed in that game but Cutler had to rush just about every throw. It was terrible.

I actually thought the pass blocking against Oakland was abit better, our run blocking was a complete joke though. Travis and Selvin broke a couple of big ones but apart from that all rushes were 2 yard gains.

There's not much we can do now but I really think next off-season we need to bring in some new offensive lineman.

I'd like a new LT (yes, Lepsis's injury has cut his career short), RG and RT could be problems if Pears can't pull it together QUICKLY and if Kuper can't prove to Shanahan he deserves to be starting.

I'd like our offensive line to look like this next game:

LT - Lepsis
LG - Myers
C - Nalen
RG - Kuper (Holland can't do any worse)
RT - (Find someone in FA to replace Pears, even if they aren't good it may motivate Pears more and get him to concentrate)

Pears at starting RT is scary to me.

Kuper hasn't proved he is good enough yet but he can't do any worse than Montrae Holland (run blocking wise) so I think Kuper should be starting over Montrae.

Our offensive line is below average at best.

I would agree with you that our offensive line is below average in pass blocking. You can see the weight advantage many D-lines have over our light offensive line take its toll in pass blocking.

Retired_Member_001
09-20-2007, 05:33 AM
I would agree with you that our offensive line is below average in pass blocking. You can see the weight advantage many D-lines have over our light offensive line take its toll in pass blocking.

I don't think weight is the ONLY thing, look at Montrae Holland, 322lbs and he is terrible.

I think even if some of our lineman were at the average weight for their positions then they would still be bad.

Hamilton's pass blocking, strength and weight is a major concern though, I think Chris Myers will be the next Ben Hamilton WITH pass blocking abilities and I think we should continue to start Chris Myers.

Lepsis is underweight, and let us NOT forget that Lepsis had the EXACT same injury as Courtney Brown had. The exact some injury that forced Shanahan to release Courtney Brown and advise him to retire.

So we have worries at LT, RG, RT. Major worries.

That isn't going to be good enough.

Lonestar
09-20-2007, 06:29 AM
I don't think weight is the ONLY thing, look at Montrae Holland, 322lbs and he is terrible.

I think even if some of our lineman were at the average weight for their positions then they would still be bad.

Hamilton's pass blocking, strength and weight is a major concern though, I think Chris Myers will be the next Ben Hamilton WITH pass blocking abilities and I think we should continue to start Chris Myers.

Lepsis is underweight, and let us NOT forget that Lepsis had the EXACT same injury as Courtney Brown had. The exact some injury that forced Shanahan to release Courtney Brown and advise him to retire.

So we have worries at LT, RG, RT. Major worries.

That isn't going to be good enough.



Lepsis has always been able to out quick the DE's, with this last knee problem that may no longer be the case.

Only time will tell about this, but so far this year his men have been in Jays face more than ever.

Retired_Member_001
09-20-2007, 01:26 PM
Lepsis has always been able to out quick the DE's, with this last knee problem that may no longer be the case.

Only time will tell about this, but so far this year his men have been in Jays face more than ever.

Lepsis is under the average weight for an offensive lineman at his normal weight but I wonder if he is still back up to his normal playing weight.

Remember, he was no where near playing weight a week before the Bills game.

Time will tell, I am very worried for our young Quarterback and our Running back though, it makes things very hard for them.

Lonestar
09-20-2007, 01:36 PM
Lepsis is under the average weight for an offensive lineman at his normal weight but I wonder if he is still back up to his normal playing weight.

Remember, he was no where near playing weight a week before the Bills game.

Time will tell, I am very worried for our young Quarterback and our Running back though, it makes things very hard for them.

I agree my biggest concern is Jay getting concussed an couple more time and having to retire early.

I think Lepsis is not back at 100% and does not trust the knee yet it is still on his mind and because of all of the above he is not what he used to be @ LT.

Will he get back there this year I do not know moist ACL's take until the second year to be back to or beyond where they were before the injury.

Retired_Member_001
09-20-2007, 01:48 PM
I agree my biggest concern is Jay getting concussed an couple more time and having to retire early.

I think Lepsis is not back at 100% and does not trust the knee yet it is still on his mind and because of all of the above he is not what he used to be @ LT.

Will he get back there this year I do not know moist ACL's take until the second year to be back to or beyond where they were before the injury.

Goodness it's a scary thought, imagine what the Bears will do to us. Imagine what Dwight Freeney and Robert Mathis will do to Matt Lepsis and Erik Pears. We will be going up against plenty of other good defensive lines aswell, those were just examples.

I really hope the offensive line can hold up but it could be a major weakness. Aaron Schobel was all over Matt Lepsis, alright, Aaron is a top DE but Matt Lepsis is SUPPOSED to be a top LT.

I think the T position is very important, especially LT if you have a right handed Quarterback. I think we are missing our own Walter Jones, Matt Light, Jonathan Odgen. We are missing a healthy Matt Lepsis actually.

It doesn't look good for our offensive line.

Lonestar
09-20-2007, 01:51 PM
Goodness it's a scary thought, imagine what the Bears will do to us. Imagine what Dwight Freeney and Robert Mathis will do to Matt Lepsis and Erik Pears. We will be going up against plenty of other good defensive lines aswell, those were just examples.

I really hope the offensive line can hold up but it could be a major weakness. Aaron Schobel was all over Matt Lepsis, alright, Aaron is a top DE but Matt Lepsis is SUPPOSED to be a top LT.

I think the T position is very important, especially LT if you have a right handed Quarterback. I think we are missing our own Walter Jones, Matt Light, Jonathan Odgen. We are missing a healthy Matt Lepsis actually.

It doesn't look good for our offensive line.

Yep they better keep the smelling salts handy agianst the real DLines we are about to play

Retired_Member_001
09-20-2007, 02:01 PM
Yep they better keep the smelling salts handy agianst the real DLines we are about to play

Yep.

The Jaguars have one of the best DT duo's in the league. I dread to think of how the Saints reject will handle it.

Retired_Member_001
09-20-2007, 02:36 PM
Hey Jr, out of interest, if you could fast forward time to next off-season how would you improve the Offensive Line?

I was just wondering.

omac
09-20-2007, 09:56 PM
Yep.

The Jaguars have one of the best DT duo's in the league. I dread to think of how the Saints reject will handle it.

Well last season, Jacksonville's had about the same amount of sacks as Buffalo and Oakland did; in the 30+ range. And the guy who led them in sacks, Bobby McCray, had the same number of sacks as Warren Sapp with 10, and less than Aaron Schobel who had 14. Also, with regards to pass defense, Oakland (#1) and Buffalo (#7) were ranked higher than Jacksonville (#10).

This season, Jacksonville looked great against the pass, except for the fact that their 2 opponents, Tennessee and Atlanta ranked 30th and 32nd in passing offense last season.

Considering we were able to gain close to 300 yards passing both times, I think we'll do pretty well passing against them too.

Our real problem is against their run defense, which was one of the best in the league. I think in this game, we have to pass the ball more often.

Jaded
09-20-2007, 10:48 PM
I think the o-line looks better than it did last year.....Cutler has time to throw and the between the 20's running game is good as it's been, too.

But it's still early, I'm waiting to see if they fade late in the season again...

Tned
09-20-2007, 10:54 PM
I think the o-line looks better than it did last year.....Cutler has time to throw and the between the 20's running game is good as it's been, too.

But it's still early, I'm waiting to see if they fade late in the season again...

When I went back and rewatch every play to combile the above list, I found that Cutler barely had time to throw on a great many of the pass plays, and it was really has quick release and ability to backpeddle and throw that helped on a number of plays. There were only a handful of plays where the pocket truly held up and he didn't have to react to the collapsing/non-existant pocket.

Lonestar
09-21-2007, 12:27 AM
Hey Jr, out of interest, if you could fast forward time to next off-season how would you improve the Offensive Line?

I was just wondering.

I think we have to get bigger than we are now probably another 10-15 pounds and perhaps some more height.

I think Lepsis is about done if his knee is not 100% then it is over cause he has to have the quickness to fend off the DE he plays. If that is not there he will get beat like a rented mule..

Jake was able to snake his way out of alot of sacks they had the rollout almost perfected for him.

Jay is mobile and as he learns more and gets the clock set in his head he will get better at getting rid of the ball instead of making back wards passes.


To tired now to deal with this. Going to get to bed. See Y'all on Sunday.

Retired_Member_001
09-21-2007, 01:24 PM
Well last season, Jacksonville's had about the same amount of sacks as Buffalo and Oakland did; in the 30+ range. And the guy who led them in sacks, Bobby McCray, had the same number of sacks as Warren Sapp with 10, and less than Aaron Schobel who had 14. Also, with regards to pass defense, Oakland (#1) and Buffalo (#7) were ranked higher than Jacksonville (#10).

This season, Jacksonville looked great against the pass, except for the fact that their 2 opponents, Tennessee and Atlanta ranked 30th and 32nd in passing offense last season.

Considering we were able to gain close to 300 yards passing both times, I think we'll do pretty well passing against them too.

Our real problem is against their run defense, which was one of the best in the league. I think in this game, we have to pass the ball more often.

Just because Jay Cutler was able to pass on them it DOESN'T mean that our pass blocking was good. Cutler had to rush the throw on just about every play against Buffalo and the pass blocking was only slightly better against Oakland.

I also think the Jaguars defensive line is better balanced, each of those lineman pose a threat.

By the way, the Jaguars are the third best team in the NFL when it comes to sacks made.

Retired_Member_001
09-21-2007, 01:25 PM
I think we have to get bigger than we are now probably another 10-15 pounds and perhaps some more height.

I think Lepsis is about done if his knee is not 100% then it is over cause he has to have the quickness to fend off the DE he plays. If that is not there he will get beat like a rented mule..

Jake was able to snake his way out of alot of sacks they had the rollout almost perfected for him.

Jay is mobile and as he learns more and gets the clock set in his head he will get better at getting rid of the ball instead of making back wards passes.


To tired now to deal with this. Going to get to bed. See Y'all on Sunday.

I agree about Lepsis, I think his career is over.

omac
09-21-2007, 06:09 PM
Just because Jay Cutler was able to pass on them it DOESN'T mean that our pass blocking was good. Cutler had to rush the throw on just about every play against Buffalo and the pass blocking was only slightly better against Oakland.

I also think the Jaguars defensive line is better balanced, each of those lineman pose a threat.

By the way, the Jaguars are the third best team in the NFL when it comes to sacks made.

Even if Cutler had to rush his passes, they were still able to amass close to 300 yards passing each game, so I could see them doing the same thing.

Jacksonville is ranked 2nd in sacks for this season, but that's for only 2 games, and most of these coming against Atlanta, ranked 32nd in passing last season and currently going with a new backup QB that doesn't have a great reputation for offense. For the 2006 regular season, they tied Cincy, Denver, and the Jets at 15th in sacks with 35, which was slightly more than Oakland with 34, and less than Buffalo with 40.

Minnesotta was ranked 26th in sacks last season with 30, yet they're currently tied for first in sacks this season. What do they have in common with Jacksonville? Atlanta, whom they had 6 sacks against, while Jacksonville had 7 sacks against them. If Atlanta doesn't improve, they will boost every team's sack numbers.

It's too early this season to say if Jacksonville is great at sacks, specially when half of the games they played were against a team in offensive shambles like Atlanta. Based on last season, they were only as good as half the teams in the NFL in sacks.

Jaded
09-21-2007, 06:46 PM
When I went back and rewatch every play to combile the above list, I found that Cutler barely had time to throw on a great many of the pass plays, and it was really has quick release and ability to backpeddle and throw that helped on a number of plays. There were only a handful of plays where the pocket truly held up and he didn't have to react to the collapsing/non-existant pocket.


That was a heck of a post, Tned, now that I got a chance to read it again.

I've been as critical of the o-line as anyone, they just seem to be better than last year to me, and I think this is about as good as we can expect from these players.

I've been screaming for change for 7, 8 years, it's just not going to happen.

The Broncos are always going to have a line like this, this may be as good as it gets. This is the prototypical Denver Broncos offensive line.

What you see is what you get:

A free agent, conveted college TE at LT.
A former 4th or 6th round pick at LG, depending on Hamiltons health.
A former 7th round pick at C.
A former 4th round reject that lost his job to a rookie at RG.
A free agent at RT.

[edit] At the moment, their top reserve is a 5th round small college project that got beat (by a player that is no longer with the team) so soundly in TC that he got benched and will most likely be looking for another team next year.....And the only hope on the horizon is a 3rd round pick with a bad back, who also happens to drop down into the 280lb range during the season.

Also, these players are coached by a former linebacker! Not Howard Mudd!....Not Hudson Hauck or Dante Scarnecchia! They are coached by a former pro LB that played TE in college, who also doubles as some sort of "offensive coordinator".

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and for all we know, Shanahan thinks these guys are Jessica Alba.

I'll definately be looking forward to your breakdowns of the o-line as the season progresses, because I'm afraid this is as good as this line gets.

But to be honest, I don't expect much....Just as long as they don't get the Franchise killed.....

Skinny
09-21-2007, 08:03 PM
That was a heck of a post, Tned, now that I got a chance to read it again.

I've been as critical of the o-line as anyone, they just seem to be better than last year to me, and I think this is about as good as we can expect from these players.

I've been screaming for change for 7, 8 years, it's just not going to happen.

The Broncos are always going to have a line like this, this may be as good as it gets. This is the prototypical Denver Broncos offensive line.

What you see is what you get:

A free agent, conveted college TE at LT.
A former 4th or 6th round pick at LG, depending on Hamiltons health.
A former 7th round pick at C.
A former 4th round reject that lost his job to a rookie at RG.
A free agent at RT.

[edit] At the moment, their top reserve is a 5th round small college project that got beat (by a player that is no longer with the team) so soundly in TC that he got benched and will most likely be looking for another team next year.....And the only hope on the horizon is a 3rd round pick with a bad back, who also happens to drop down into the 280lb range during the season.

Also, these players are coached by a former linebacker! Not Howard Mudd!....Not Hudson Hauck or Dante Scarnecchia! They are coached by a former pro LB that played TE in college, who also doubles as some sort of "offensive coordinator".

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and for all we know, Shanahan thinks these guys are Jessica Alba.

I'll definately be looking forward to your breakdowns of the o-line as the season progresses, because I'm afraid this is as good as this line gets.

But to be honest, I don't expect much....Just as long as they don't get the Franchise killed.....I too think the O-line is looking better than last year so far and unfortunately agree with ya to that it's not going to get much better.

I really hope Mikey signs a really quality O-lineman, or 2 (to fill in for whoever fills in for Nalen and Lepsis), to take step forward in pass protection for Jay. There's just way too much talent in Jay as well as in our WR group not too.

And i really hope that he and the staff do it through FA.

You know what your getting and the experiance factor is already there.

But, if we are in a great position in the 2008 draft in the 1st round or even the 2nd (depending on whom it is) then i'm all for it. I just hope it's not in the later rounds where one will have to be 'developed' because the coaching just is'nt there IMO, to win the odds of them blossoming into a truly solid, starter type player.

And i say that mainly because NFLE no longer exist for this coaching staff to use as a key developmental tool in getting the rookies more and much needed experiance helping prepare those guys for the NFL.

The lineman we have now did and it's shows.

Nalen and Lepsis's games are numbered and when the O-line is shuffled to fill those positions when they retire, we need to be able to plug them and go.

Not plug them and worry.

Jaded
09-21-2007, 08:21 PM
I too think the O-line is looking better than last year so far and unfortunately agree with ya to that it's not going to get much better.

I really hope Mikey signs a really quality O-lineman, or 2 (to fill in for whoever fills in for Nalen and Lepsis), to take step forward in pass protection for Jay. There's just way too much talent in Jay as well as in our WR group not too.

And i really hope that he and the staff do it through FA.

You know what your getting and the experiance factor is already there.

But, if we are in a great position in the 2008 draft in the 1st round or even the 2nd (depending on whom it is) then i'm all for it. I just hope it's not in the later rounds where one will have to be 'developed' because the coaching just is'nt there IMO, to win the odds of them blossoming into a truly solid, starter type player.

And i say that mainly because NFLE no longer exist for this coaching staff to use as a key developmental tool in getting the rookies more and much needed experiance helping prepare those guys for the NFL.

The lineman we have now did and it's shows.

Nalen and Lepsis's games are numbered and when the O-line is shuffled to fill those positions when they retire, we need to be able to plug them and go.

Not plug them and worry.

That's how I feel....Draft somebody with a premium pick, or get a top free agent...Or both!

But, I've come to the conclusion that Shanahan will never break this mold. This is his style of lineman.....Later round picks that nobody else wants!

He's never had the opportunity to draft a Jones/Pace/Gross/Ogden/Samuels, but I'm not sure he would draft one of those if he could. Much less a Hutchinson or Faneca. JMO, but I'm not sure he would.

Anyway, my point is, there are no more Schlereth/Zimmerman/Jones that fit the mold and can dominate. An above average, cohesive overall offensive line might be the best we could hope for.

I just hope they're as good in the second half of the season as they appear to be now.....

Lonestar
09-21-2007, 11:54 PM
That's how I feel....Draft somebody with a premium pick, or get a top free agent...Or both!

But, I've come to the conclusion that Shanahan will never break this mold. This is his style of lineman.....Later round picks that nobody else wants!

He's never had the opportunity to draft a Jones/Pace/Gross/Ogden/Samuels, but I'm not sure he would draft one of those if he could. Much less a Hutchinson or Faneca. JMO, but I'm not sure he would.

Anyway, my point is, there are no more Schlereth/Zimmerman/Jones that fit the mold and can dominate. An above average, cohesive overall offensive line might be the best we could hope for.

I just hope they're as good in the second half of the season as they appear to be now.....


I hope they get a lot better since jay is running for his life having teo throw off his back foot, mamking crossing throws across hi body and almost always has a DLine guy in his face.

Sooner or later that is gonna add up to a major injury.

Retired_Member_001
09-22-2007, 05:26 PM
Even if Cutler had to rush his passes, they were still able to amass close to 300 yards passing each game, so I could see them doing the same thing.

Jacksonville is ranked 2nd in sacks for this season, but that's for only 2 games, and most of these coming against Atlanta, ranked 32nd in passing last season and currently going with a new backup QB that doesn't have a great reputation for offense. For the 2006 regular season, they tied Cincy, Denver, and the Jets at 15th in sacks with 35, which was slightly more than Oakland with 34, and less than Buffalo with 40.

Minnesotta was ranked 26th in sacks last season with 30, yet they're currently tied for first in sacks this season. What do they have in common with Jacksonville? Atlanta, whom they had 6 sacks against, while Jacksonville had 7 sacks against them. If Atlanta doesn't improve, they will boost every team's sack numbers.

It's too early this season to say if Jacksonville is great at sacks, specially when half of the games they played were against a team in offensive shambles like Atlanta. Based on last season, they were only as good as half the teams in the NFL in sacks.

Good points, but now they have a healthy Reggie Hayward and now Bobby McCray will start all 16 games it seems.

That has to make them slightly better.

Of course John Henderson is now doubtful for the game which will make things easier for the Saints reject and George Foster whoops I mean Erik Pears. ;)

Retired_Member_001
09-22-2007, 05:29 PM
That's how I feel....Draft somebody with a premium pick, or get a top free agent...Or both!

But, I've come to the conclusion that Shanahan will never break this mold. This is his style of lineman.....Later round picks that nobody else wants!

He's never had the opportunity to draft a Jones/Pace/Gross/Ogden/Samuels, but I'm not sure he would draft one of those if he could. Much less a Hutchinson or Faneca. JMO, but I'm not sure he would.

Anyway, my point is, there are no more Schlereth/Zimmerman/Jones that fit the mold and can dominate. An above average, cohesive overall offensive line might be the best we could hope for.

I just hope they're as good in the second half of the season as they appear to be now.....

As I understand the draft is pretty good for the T position but not so good for the G position.

I think we should draft someone to come in and start straight away, a first day pick needs to be used on an offensive lineman.

omac
09-23-2007, 01:52 AM
Good points, but now they have a healthy Reggie Hayward and now Bobby McCray will start all 16 games it seems.

That has to make them slightly better.

Of course John Henderson is now doubtful for the game which will make things easier for the Saints reject and George Foster whoops I mean Erik Pears. ;)

You're analysis are very good, because they're very qualitative. For teams I don't get to see a lot of, I usually rely just on stats, but you know a whole lot about the specific defensive players, much more than I do, so I wouldn't be surprised if you're spot-on on this one. Let's hope for this game, though, that they suck, hehehe. :beer:

Requiem / The Dagda
09-23-2007, 11:24 AM
I've been saying since we drafted Jay, Denver would have to put more of a priority on offensive lineman. They cannot get buy with the late-round and undrafted players they've been accustomed to. You don't protect an investment like Jay with the crap we have on the offensive line. Drafting Ryan Harris in the early third round was their first move in the right direction, and as long as he can keep healthy, I think he fits what we want to do very well. He's not the biggest guy, (6'4-300) but he's one of the more talented players we've drafted on the offensive line.

With the depth at OT this year, I think we'll end up plucking out another prospect within the first four rounds. It'd at least be a start. With Lepsis struggling, Hamilton being dazed and out of the line-up, and considering Nalen can't have that much time left - Denver is going to be in a world of hurt in a year or so when these players are gone.

The ZBS is here to stay, but we need to invest a premium in quality guys on draft day. You get them cheap. In free-agency, it's just so expensive. It's getting to the point where guards are getting forty million dollars and that's just ridiculous.

Retired_Member_001
09-23-2007, 11:32 AM
You're analysis are very good, because they're very qualitative. For teams I don't get to see a lot of, I usually rely just on stats, but you know a whole lot about the specific defensive players, much more than I do, so I wouldn't be surprised if you're spot-on on this one. Let's hope for this game, though, that they suck, hehehe. :beer:

Thanks.

John Henderson is out for the Jaguars and that is a BIG blow for them, hopefully Travis Henry takes advantage of that.

It will also help out when it comes to pass blocking.

He's a big player for them.

Let's hope for the best.

Retired_Member_001
09-23-2007, 11:37 AM
I've been saying since we drafted Jay, Denver would have to put more of a priority on offensive lineman. They cannot get buy with the late-round and undrafted players they've been accustomed to. You don't protect an investment like Jay with the crap we have on the offensive line. Drafting Ryan Harris in the early third round was their first move in the right direction, and as long as he can keep healthy, I think he fits what we want to do very well. He's not the biggest guy, (6'4-300) but he's one of the more talented players we've drafted on the offensive line.


Imagine what Jay Cutler could do with a half decent offensive line?

I really feel sorry for the guy and I am actually worried that we are going to take a couple of years off of his NFL Quarterback lifespan because of our offensive line. He hasn't been sacked too many times so far but that's because he has been rushing all his throws.

When you draft a guy like Jay Cutler you want to provide him with ALL talent you can get. The offensive line is the base of the offense, if anything you should start there.

Requiem / The Dagda
09-23-2007, 11:42 AM
Yeah, it'd be nice if we could get our quarterback a nice offensive line. It'd do wonders.

Tned
09-23-2007, 01:04 PM
Imagine what Jay Cutler could do with a half decent offensive line?



I said that about Elway for the first 13 or so years of his career.

No doubt in my mind, if Elway had Marino's line for all those years when Marino had awesome protection and Marino had Elway's, Elway would hold all the passing records, rather than Marino.

Compared to before the Shanny era, these offensive lines are awesome, but compared to other teams, our pass blocking is sub-par.

Jaded
09-23-2007, 01:20 PM
I was shocked when Shanahan took an o-lineman in the 1st round, and I was even more shocked that he weighed 338LBs.

ZBS lineman just don't get taken high in the draft, nobody wants them for anything other than depth.

I'd be shocked if Shanahan EVER drafts an elite prospect, I truely believe he is more than content to protect Cutler with 4th round picks and rookie FA's.

Shanahan is married to his chicken poop/soup philosophy, he can take chicken poop and make an offensive line soup....He's the Chicken Poop/Soup Nazi!

"Jake Long...You're too big and talented! No soup for you!".....

Retired_Member_001
09-23-2007, 02:24 PM
I said that about Elway for the first 13 or so years of his career.

No doubt in my mind, if Elway had Marino's line for all those years when Marino had awesome protection and Marino had Elway's, Elway would hold all the passing records, rather than Marino.

Compared to before the Shanny era, these offensive lines are awesome, but compared to other teams, our pass blocking is sub-par.

Good points.

That's why we need to give Cutler a good offensive line.

Retired_Member_001
09-23-2007, 02:27 PM
I was shocked when Shanahan took an o-lineman in the 1st round, and I was even more shocked that he weighed 338LBs.

ZBS lineman just don't get taken high in the draft, nobody wants them for anything other than depth.

I'd be shocked if Shanahan EVER drafts an elite prospect, I truely believe he is more than content to protect Cutler with 4th round picks and rookie FA's.

Shanahan is married to his chicken poop/soup philosophy, he can take chicken poop and make an offensive line soup....He's the Chicken Poop/Soup Nazi!

"Jake Long...You're too big and talented! No soup for you!".....

EVENTUALLY Shanahan will be FORCED to draft some elite prospects. I don't think Cutler is going to be too happy playing for us when we have George Foster (atleast we got rid of him), Erik Pears (next George Foster), Montrae Holland (One of the worst starting offensive lineman in the league) type offensive lineman.

Concussions really affect a player later on in their life.

Tned
09-23-2007, 02:31 PM
EVENTUALLY Shanahan will be FORCED to draft some elite prospects. I don't think Cutler is going to be too happy playing for us when we have George Foster (atleast we got rid of him), Erik Pears (next George Foster), Montrae Holland (One of the worst starting offensive lineman in the league) type offensive lineman. Concussions really affect a player later on in their life.

The problem is that when you win as consistantly as the Broncos do, you don't get high draft choices and 'rebuilding' opportunities. When you consistantly have your first pick in the second half of the first round, and often the last third, there are fewer sure things. The 'elite' linemen are typically going in the top 10 and often the top 5.

Retired_Member_001
09-23-2007, 02:38 PM
The problem is that when you win as consistantly as the Broncos do, you don't get high draft choices and 'rebuilding' opportunities. When you consistantly have your first pick in the second half of the first round, and often the last third, there are fewer sure things. The 'elite' linemen are typically going in the top 10 and often the top 5.

I'm pretty sure looking at the players coming through the draft that there will be plenty of chances to draft a good offensive lineman in the upcoming draft.

Of course there's always the option of trading up to get a guy we really want.

Tned
09-23-2007, 02:41 PM
I'm pretty sure looking at the players coming through the draft that there will be plenty of chances to draft a good offensive lineman in the upcoming draft.

Of course there's always the option of trading up to get a guy we really want.

There might be, but we also might need a safety or to fill another hole (although I can't really see one other than Safety and O-line assuming no injuries this year).

Retired_Member_001
09-23-2007, 02:44 PM
I'm pretty sure looking at the players coming through the draft that there will be plenty of chances to draft a good offensive lineman in the upcoming draft.

Of course there's always the option of trading up to get a guy we really want.

Obviously Jake Long and Sam Baker are out of the question.

Barry Richardson, Tony Hills and Ryan Clady would all be available with say the 28th pick. Gosder Cherilus wouldn't be too far away (if we wanted to trade up).

Tned
09-23-2007, 02:47 PM
Obviously Jake Long and Sam Baker are out of the question.

Barry Richardson, Tony Hills and Ryan Clady would all be available with say the 28th pick. Gosder Cherilus wouldn't be too far away (if we wanted to trade up).

Trade Cutler and what ever it takes to get the first pick in the draft and take Darren McFadden!!!!

Retired_Member_001
09-23-2007, 02:48 PM
Trade Cutler and what ever it takes to get the first pick in the draft and take Darren McFadden!!!!

:laugh: Yeah right.

Tned
09-23-2007, 02:50 PM
:laugh: Yeah right.

Razorbacks got their butts kicked last night, but McFadden was awesome again, and playing sick -- getting IV's, late coming back from locker room in 3rd quarter.

pnbronco
09-23-2007, 09:11 PM
Trade Cutler and what ever it takes to get the first pick in the draft and take Darren McFadden!!!!

So now you're trying to make us all laugh, funny boy :laugh:

omac
09-24-2007, 03:45 AM
Any updates on Ryan Harris?

Also, do they project him to be one of the best in the league, or just solid?

Tned
09-24-2007, 06:32 AM
Any updates on Ryan Harris?

Also, do they project him to be one of the best in the league, or just solid?

I don't have an update on him. Was it back surgery he had??

However, I can't imagine him being projected as one of the best in the league, considering he was a 3rd round pick or something like that.

Retired_Member_001
09-24-2007, 09:21 AM
I don't have an update on him. Was it back surgery he had??

However, I can't imagine him being projected as one of the best in the league, considering he was a 3rd round pick or something like that.

I was dying for us to pick a T in the second or third round, I was very happy with Ryan Harris.

He currently has a back inury, that's all I know. I hope he isn't out long, Lepsis could blow any minute.

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