Bring on the flaming! Tebow needs to start rest of the season.

[broncobryce]

Just like Shanahan did with Cutler, let the rookie play. Orton has stats, (not last 3 games) but watching him I don't see a first rate starter. He's the ideal backup. What Tebow is remains to be seen, but it's time to see it. Orton is NOT the future. If everything goes perfect with the play, Orton can succeed, but seventy percent of the time in the NFL, everything doesn't happen perfectly and you need to improvise. Orton cannot make that happen consistently. Let's see if Tebow can. We are seeing the same shit as with Shanahan in the latter years. Remember the massive blowout against the Lions who were horrible? Different coach, different players, second rate QB, (Cutler, Orton). Tebow MIGHT not be the answer either, but time to give him a shot.

[CHARLIEADAMSFAN]

No not yet. Tebow is a work in progress in my opinion. Keep Orton in for at least another 4 weeks.

[Northman]

It would be a mistake to ruin Orton's probowl year.

[BroncoWave]

Agreed. I am absolutely befuddled that Tebow never came in the game today. WTF are you doing McDaniels? If you're going to pick a QB in the first round you might as well use him in games like today.

[silkamilkamonico]

Who cares! Kansas basketball starts right around the corner!

[TXBRONC]

Just like Shanahan did with Cutler, let the rookie play. Orton has stats, (not last 3 games) but watching him I don't see a first rate starter. He's the ideal backup. What Tebow is remains to be seen, but it's time to see it. Orton is NOT the future. If everything goes perfect with the play, Orton can succeed, but seventy percent of the time in the NFL, everything doesn't happen perfectly and you need to improvise. Orton cannot make that happen consistently. Let's see if Tebow can. We are seeing the same shit as with Shanahan in the latter years. Remember the massive blowout against the Lions who were horrible? Different coach, different players, second rate QB, (Cutler, Orton). Tebow MIGHT not be the answer either, but time to give him a shot.

If it happens I wont complain, but imho I don't think we're at the point were you pull Orton for Tebow.

[Medford Bronco]

It would be a mistake to ruin Orton's probowl year.

I think Orton has done well. The D sucks on this team. The running game sucks as well. Orton and the WRs have been the lone bright spots IMO this year.

Get Tebow some reps but not at Ortons expense right now. Game 11 maybe if we are 2-8

[I Eat Staples]

Just like Shanahan did with Cutler

Stopped reading after this.

[Ravage!!!]

I don't think it happens until after the bye.

I get why McD didn't bring him in. He doesn't want to give off the "give up" flag. But there are times to swallow your ego, and give the kid some snaps. That IS, unless McD just know Tebow isn't ready yet, and doesn't want to show just how bad Tebow is.

Seriously though. AZ started an undrafted QB this week, and Jacksonville's QB was fixing tractors before this week.

[TXBRONC]

I don't think it happens until after the bye.

I get why McD didn't bring him in. He doesn't want to give off the "give up" flag. But there are times to swallow your ego, and give the kid some snaps. That IS, unless McD just know Tebow isn't ready yet, and doesn't want to show just how bad Tebow is.

Seriously though. AZ started an undrafted QB this week, and Jacksonville's QB was fixing tractors before this week.

But this particular game was over so putting him wasn't going to change the inevitable. In that disastrous '94 season we were getting our heads bashed in by the Saints so Elway was pulled late in the game to keep from getting injured IIRC.

[Ravage!!!]

But this particular game was over so putting him wasn't going to change the inevitable. In that disastrous '94 season we were getting our heads bashed in by the Saints so Elway was pulled late in the game to keep from getting injured IIRC.

Exactly. Sometimes you have to swallow your pride, and get the players some experience.

[JaxBroncoGirl]

It would be a mistake to ruin Orton's probowl year.

After today, he may not see the pro bowl, we have been unmasked, out played, out coached and the Raiders have better players. Sorry. TT would not have made a difference yet, we should have put him in to relieve the pressure on Orton.

[Krugan]

We are 3 games out, with weeeeeks to go.

Throwing in Timaaaaahhhhh now is just to soon.

Although it would be nice to see the kid play so we can draft a Qb early in the next draft with the stupid high pick we earn.

[JaxBroncoGirl]

I think Orton has done well. The D sucks on this team. The running game sucks as well. Orton and the WRs have been the lone bright spots IMO this year.

Get Tebow some reps but not at Ortons expense right now. Game 11 maybe if we are 2-8

I'm sorry but the QB and receivers did horrible today. Orton has done well it is just not the DL that sucks. It is the execution that sucks. Orton can throw 1000 yards but can he get it done in the red zone?

[Northman]

Exactly. Sometimes you have to swallow your pride, and get the players some experience.

That would be a tall order for this HC.

[Northman]

After today, he may not see the pro bowl, we have been unmasked, out played, out coached and the Raiders have better players. Sorry. TT would not have made a difference yet, we should have put him in to relieve the pressure on Orton.

I was being sarcastic. Orton never had a serious chance at a pro bowl. But, there are a lot of people who disagreed with the pulling of Plummage for Cutler so with the season still in doubt (depending on who you are) it would be unwise to pull the plug on ol' Wyle E Kylote.

[Nomad]

If Tebow can get us wins then I'm all for starting him!! It's been so long I'm having a hard time remembering consistent red zone scoring!!

[HORSEPOWER 56]

Who cares! Kansas basketball starts right around the corner!

Duck Fasketball!

[TXBRONC]

I was being sarcastic. Orton never had a serious chance at a pro bowl. But, there are a lot of people who disagreed with the pulling of Plummage for Cutler so with the season still in doubt (depending on who you are) it would be unwise to pull the plug on ol' Wyle E Kylote.

The standard argument for keeping Orton as the starter has been that he gives us the best chance to win. I'm not so sure that's true even though Orton had played very well up until last week.

[Shazam!]

In that disastrous '94 season we were getting our heads bashed in by the Saints so Elway was pulled late in the game to keep from getting injured IIRC.

Elway was badly hurt already in 1994 (knee). He came out of the SF game a few games earlier.

I think TT should take control once the Season is officially over.

Let's face it, if Denver wins 4-5 games this season or less, may as well see what he can do.

Season is fading fast.

[TXBRONC]

Elway was badly hurt already in 1994 (knee). He came out of the SF game a few games earlier.

I think TT should take control once the Season is officially over.

Nevertheless my point is that in blowout games Elway was taken out. He wouldn't have been taken out otherwise that I'm sure of.

[broncobryce]

Stopped reading after this.

No skin off my back.

[BroncoWave]

McD said in his press conference that the reason Tebow didn't come in today was because he wanted to keep running their offense with Orton and that this wasn't the type of situation he wanted to get Tebow experience in.

[Ravage!!!]

McD said in his press conference that the reason Tebow didn't come in today was because he wanted to keep running their offense with Orton and that this wasn't the type of situation he wanted to get Tebow experience in.

Hmmm. what kind of situation is that....having to throw the ball? Being behind? Playing the Raiders? I wonder what kind of situation he was talking about that would be 'bad' experience for a young QB?

[BroncoWave]

Hmmm. what kind of situation is that....having to throw the ball? Being behind? Playing the Raiders? I wonder what kind of situation he was talking about that would be 'bad' experience for a young QB?

I don't know. I would like to hear further explanation from him on that. I really can't think of any good reason to have not put him in the game unless McD felt that he was just absolutely not ready to do anything other than come in and run the ball. If that's the case that is quite concerning.

[TimTebow15MVP]

nah you cant make this move it would be silly IMO. tebows time will come in due time. ortons not the problem so let him carry on with his pro bowl type season so his trade value increases.

im positive tebow will be a beast in this league but not yet. wait untill next year. its a business decision. we aint gon win with tebow this year. we aint gon win with orton. but next year i believe is our year. and when the tebow era begins.

[PAINTERDAVE]

Throwing Tebow to the wolves today would have been ridiculous.

He will be starting soon enough...
after he has a game plan designed for him...
he is prepared... has practiced with the first team...


to simply push him off the gangplank into the Pirate Horde today,
would have served no purpose.

It really baffles me to hear people calling for that.

This was just one game...

it ended our playoff hopes...
but those of us who could see the writing on the wall knew this team was not playoff caliber.

I say good.

After the bye... start the Tebow Project.

No pressure. Get all teh Rookies a ton of experience.
Find out which players really want to be on this team.

Get ready for the future.

I never dreamed we'd lose like this...
or even that we would lose today at all...
but the fact that is now on the table..
IT IS A REBUILDING YEAR...


Tebow will be starting soon now.

[TXBRONC]

If Tebow can get us wins then I'm all for starting him!! It's been so long I'm having a hard time remembering consistent red zone scoring!!

We wont know that unless he starts. And if he does and Denver doesn't win I think we would have to just bit the bullet because playing musical quarterbacks isn't a good idea.

[Thnikkaman]

What? Does Tebow play Defense or magically fix the running game?

[BroncoWave]

What? Does Tebow play Defense or magically fix the running game?

Come on dude, no one is suggesting that he is going to fix our problems. They are simply saying that if we are going to be this bad we might as well get Tebow some experience.

[Thnikkaman]

Come on dude, no one is suggesting that he is going to fix our problems. They are simply saying that if we are going to be this bad we might as well get Tebow some experience.

Well I know a brothel in Southern Nevada we can take him to, but I don't know how that is going to help the Broncos.

[broncobryce]

Well I know a brothel in Southern Nevada we can take him to, but I don't know how that is going to help the Broncos.

Lol, I'm pretty sure he doesn't need your help to get laid. :lol:

[Dzone]

Mcdaniels wont increase Tebows playing time. That would make too much sense and this coach never makes any sense.

[rcsodak]

I don't think it happens until after the bye.

I get why McD didn't bring him in. He doesn't want to give off the "give up" flag. But there are times to swallow your ego, and give the kid some snaps. That IS, unless McD just know Tebow isn't ready yet, and doesn't want to show just how bad Tebow is.

Seriously though. AZ started an undrafted QB this week, and Jacksonville's QB was fixing tractors before this week.

13 QB Rating. :coffee:
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[rcsodak]

I don't know. I would like to hear further explanation from him on that. I really can't think of any good reason to have not put him in the game unless McD felt that he was just absolutely not ready to do anything other than come in and run the ball. If that's the case that is quite concerning.
not that difficult. Getting swamped. Defense knows you're passing. Expecting TT to know blitz pkgs is absurd....unless you WANT him to be like DCarr. Maybe ya'll do? :rolleyes:
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[Dzone]

Mcdaniels is the ryan leaf of coaching prospects

[rcsodak]

Come on dude, no one is suggesting that he is going to fix our problems. They are simply saying that if we are going to be this bad we might as well get Tebow some experience.
Since when does having your best players on the bench help ANYBODY? We've already seen how its effected the D, have we not?
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[TXBRONC]

Since when does having your best players on the bench help ANYBODY? We've already seen how its effected the D, have we not?
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Are you talking about Dumervil?
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[G_Money]

Leadership. It's what we need, what we're crying out for. This team has none of note.

Orton is not a leader. He's actually a better player than I gave him credit for, but not a leader. There's no Nalen on the OL to rally the troops, no RB or WR who has been here long enough or played well enough to lead anything.

Champ is like Orton, a non-leader. He plays, previously at a HOF level, but he doesn't marshall the locker room either.

DJ? Not a leader. Neither is Hill or Goodman.

The one guy on this team who might be called a leader is Dawkins. HE'S a locker room guy...but apparently doesn't have this locker room like he had the one in Philly.

The one guy we've never been able to replace on this team is Al Wilson. Since he went down to injury we haven't had defensive leadership. Not even Lynch (who by that time was getting ineffective due to age). Guys in the locker room were afraid of Al Wilson. He commanded respect and demanded best effort. Our defense fell off an abyss when we swapped DCs again...but it was AFTER Al went down. I don't think the DC was the only issue there, it was also losing the leadership of the toughest player in the room.

It's not enough to be a good player, or a good coordinator. There comes a time when you need to be a leader of men. That's what makes team captains and head coaches, while other guys keep putting up numbers or coordinating offensive attacks without getting the Big Man On Campus label.

I don't think McDaniels is a leader. I never have, and his feuds with players and coaches bear that out. No need to rally the troops when you can just fire them and get new troops, I guess. And because he isn't, I don't know if he knows how to rescue this team. You can draw up great plays, but if guys are going 80% and looking over their shoulder at you, it's not gonna work.

There's only one offensive player that we have that qualifies as a leader in my opinion, someone people are afraid to disappoint, who humiliates them with his work ethic and exhorts them with his personality.

And I have no idea if he can even play QB at a rudimentary level in the pros.

But if there's no leader in the locker room among his starters right now, then McDaniels needs to go somewhere else to get it.

The Titans got embarrassed 59-0 by New England last year. Next week? Vince Young started, and ripped off a string of victories. Why? He's not a better QB than Kerry Collins, but there's something about him that inspires the people he plays with. John Elway had that, when many good QBs did not.

Tebow has it. On the surface, it makes zero sense to replace Orton (especially now that we've added a year to his deal) with the still-wet-behind-the-ears Tebow. Orton knows the offense better, he's been reading pro defenses a lot longer, and he's plenty talented to put up some decent numbers in a pass-happy offense.

But he doesn't solve our leadership problem, nor our lack-of-stones problem.

I don't know what McDaniels is gonna do. He's stubborn and unshakably sure of his approach, even when it's undeniably pig-headed. Maybe he thinks the team will follow him just because he has a title. That didn't work for Cam Cameron or Jim Zorn. The more confused your approach looks on Sunday the less likely guys are to pay attention the other 6 days. They all know he's never done this before, and they're waiting to see him pull out of this 4-13 death spiral. If we lack confidence in him, so too do the players.

There is one guy who will run through a brick wall for him, though, no questions asked, 100% effort at all times, and who can probably convince his teammates to do the same.

Pulling Orton would be another "what the hell are you doing?" move in a head coaching career full of them.

I just don't know of another way to solve the leadership problem. If we go to London and lose to the 49ers, the revolt will be in full swing as we head into division play against rivals chomping at the bit to get a piece of these Denver Broncos.

Josh has to stop the bleeding now, and I mean NOW. Orton's stat line doesn't mean much if we're losing. The Chargers keep winning the stat race on offense AND defense, but can't put wins on the board. That's a leadership problem too. Heart still counts for something in this league, and we just don't have enough of it, or at least we haven't shown it.

Paging Dr. Tebow, Heart Transplant in the ER?

Maybe. I didn't see it happening before this debacle, but now? Yeah, now I can see it.

~G

[broncobryce]

Leadership. It's what we need, what we're crying out for. This team has none of note.

Orton is not a leader. He's actually a better player than I gave him credit for, but not a leader. There's no Nalen on the OL to rally the troops, no RB or WR who has been here long enough or played well enough to lead anything.

Champ is like Orton, a non-leader. He plays, previously at a HOF level, but he doesn't marshall the locker room either.

DJ? Not a leader. Neither is Hill or Goodman.

The one guy on this team who might be called a leader is Dawkins. HE'S a locker room guy...but apparently doesn't have this locker room like he had the one in Philly.

The one guy we've never been able to replace on this team is Al Wilson. Since he went down to injury we haven't had defensive leadership. Not even Lynch (who by that time was getting ineffective due to age). Guys in the locker room were afraid of Al Wilson. He commanded respect and demanded best effort. Our defense fell off an abyss when we swapped DCs again...but it was AFTER Al went down. I don't think the DC was the only issue there, it was also losing the leadership of the toughest player in the room.

It's not enough to be a good player, or a good coordinator. There comes a time when you need to be a leader of men. That's what makes team captains and head coaches, while other guys keep putting up numbers or coordinating offensive attacks without getting the Big Man On Campus label.

I don't think McDaniels is a leader. I never have, and his feuds with players and coaches bear that out. No need to rally the troops when you can just fire them and get new troops, I guess. And because he isn't, I don't know if he knows how to rescue this team. You can draw up great plays, but if guys are going 80% and looking over their shoulder at you, it's not gonna work.

There's only one offensive player that we have that qualifies as a leader in my opinion, someone people are afraid to disappoint, who humiliates them with his work ethic and exhorts them with his personality.

And I have no idea if he can even play QB at a rudimentary level in the pros.

But if there's no leader in the locker room among his starters right now, then McDaniels needs to go somewhere else to get it.

The Titans got embarrassed 59-0 by New England last year. Next week? Vince Young started, and ripped off a string of victories. Why? He's not a better QB than Kerry Collins, but there's something about him that inspires the people he plays with. John Elway had that, when many good QBs did not.

Tebow has it. On the surface, it makes zero sense to replace Orton (especially now that we've added a year to his deal) with the still-wet-behind-the-ears Tebow. Orton knows the offense better, he's been reading pro defenses a lot longer, and he's plenty talented to put up some decent numbers in a pass-happy offense.

But he doesn't solve our leadership problem, nor our lack-of-stones problem.

I don't know what McDaniels is gonna do. He's stubborn and unshakably sure of his approach, even when it's undeniably pig-headed. Maybe he thinks the team will follow him just because he has a title. That didn't work for Cam Cameron or Jim Zorn. The more confused your approach looks on Sunday the less likely guys are to pay attention the other 6 days. They all know he's never done this before, and they're waiting to see him pull out of this 4-13 death spiral. If we lack confidence in him, so too do the players.

There is one guy who will run through a brick wall for him, though, no questions asked, 100% effort at all times, and who can probably convince his teammates to do the same.

Pulling Orton would be another "what the hell are you doing?" move in a head coaching career full of them.

I just don't know of another way to solve the leadership problem. If we go to London and lose to the 49ers, the revolt will be in full swing as we head into division play against rivals chomping at the bit to get a piece of these Denver Broncos.

Josh has to stop the bleeding now, and I mean NOW. Orton's stat line doesn't mean much if we're losing. The Chargers keep winning the stat race on offense AND defense, but can't put wins on the board. That's a leadership problem too. Heart still counts for something in this league, and we just don't have enough of it, or at least we haven't shown it.

Paging Dr. Tebow, Heart Transplant in the ER?

Maybe. I didn't see it happening before this debacle, but now? Yeah, now I can see it.

~G

What he said.

[G_Money]

To be clear, I don't think Tim needs to start now, for his sake. We may wind up in labor hell next season anyway. McDaniels may get fired and Tim's familiarity with this offense won't make a difference. Orton's been extended through next season (whenever that comes around) for 8 million extra bones.

And Orton's throwing the ball well, better than at any time in his career.

With an OL that can't do anything right, it's not doing Tim any favors to stand behind it and try to learn the pro game. Especially as a lefty, which messes up the protection schemes even more.

But if he's the guy, then he needs to be the guy starting, sooner or later. It worries me that we moved around to draft Tebow and then extended Orton so that Tim would have a 2 year apprenticeship instead of one.

Is that rewarding Orton for being a good soldier and good QB or hedging bets on Tebow? Orton will not ultimately save Josh's job. Only a successful Tebow can do that. Tebow and some winning.

I don't know when Josh will pull the trigger on starting the Tebow experiment, but since he's got a decent QB at the helm right now it's hard to see it happening immediately.

But before this week it was basically impossible for me to see that happening this year, and now I'm not as sure. Now I could see it happening after the bye week, let alone by the end of the season.

Josh's moves are hard to figure out, that's for sure, and I don't know how Tebow is in practice with 2nd team reps.

But more doses of ineffective offense and losing might bring us Tebow sooner rather than later. Tebow represents a change, for us watching and those playing. I dunno if it'll be a Joker or an Ace, but it's one of the few remaining cards up Josh's sleeve if the losses mount. He'll have to play it this year if that happens.

Won't he?

~G

[rcsodak]

Saints are 1dimensional right now. With a defense that unless they're getting TO's is just average. Nobody scares opposing teams. Result? Minus a late garbage TD, a beatdown by a rookie QB-led Cleveland Browns. -Tim Ryan, Sirius NFL
And that from an ESTABLISHED team.

Mistakes aside, McD deserves more time. Nobody learns the ropes without setbacks. They become building blocks.

Any other year, we'd all be saying "bring on the bye week".
Time to get behind McD and this team.
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[Northman]

Time for McD to prove his worth.

[G_Money]

Mistakes aside, McD deserves more time. Nobody learns the ropes without setbacks. They become building blocks.

Any other year, we'd all be saying "bring on the bye week".
Time to get behind McD and this team.
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Again, Cam Cameron and Jim Zorn didn't get more time.

Cameron: 16 games (1-15)
Zorn: 32 games (8-8, 4-12)
Linehan: 36 Games (8-8, 3-13, 0-4). And he should never have gotten that 3rd year.

McDaniels 8-8, 2-5

If Josh goes 4-12 or 5-11 then no, I don't think his job is safe.

Not if we can talk Chucky into taking over this team. He has a hatred for the Raiders that Bowlen can appreciate and he loves Tim Tebow. He's also a respected head coach. Not the greatest head coach, but somebody who can get this thing back on track.

McDaniels has to get the team behind him before anyone worries about getting the fans behind him. This season could fall apart in a hurry.

I'll worry about getting behind him once he's proven he has the moxie to recover the team's loyalty and spirit after that loss and wins some games. Convincingly.

Right now I think the seat's definitely warming up.

Wade Phillips was a .500 coach who got canned after 2 seasons for wasting Elway's time. Bowlen might not be in as much of a hurry without having the waning years of a HOF QB to consider, but he's been snappy with that trigger finger before, and Josh doesn't have the cushion of friendship and Super Bowl rings that Shanahan had.

Let Josh pick up the pieces of this season and make something more than garbage out of them. Then we'll see about his future and backing him as the coach of this team after the lockout.
~G

[broncobryce]

I would bring wade in as D coordinator if Bowlen wants another D coordinators head.