Yes, only wins and losses matter, but their are some rays of hope

[Tned]

Ok, first let me say I am not excited or happy about the loss. I am not happy or excited about the Broncos losing 12 of their last 16 games.

But...

I do see rays of hope, some sunshine poking through the storm clouds.

With the exception of the Ravens game, we were "in" every loss and had a chance to win.

We shut down Chris Johnson, MJD, LT/Green for the most part and Indies run game. One of our glaring weaknesses from recent years has become a strength.

With no running game before today, The Broncos have been able to move the ball with very few turnovers.

This is a game we should have won. Week one against Jax there were so many chances to score and close out the game, not to mention holding on to the win without McBean's back to back facemask personal fouls.

Indy we played tough for most of the game.

The Baltimore game is really the only game we didn't have a legitimate shot at winning. That isn't to say that they all finished close, but that for most of the game we were competing.

Now, the bad part is that with most of those games sloppy play, penalties, and of course the lack of a running game, along with RZ struggles, were the difference of being "in" the game and winning it. So, the ray of sunshine isn't 'too' bright yet, but it's there.

We are through the toughest part of our schedule, and with 6 games against the AFC West and three games against the NFC West, along with Houston, if we play the way we have in five of our first six games, we should be very competitive in our final ten games.

Despite the dismal (and yes, it is ******* dismal) record over the last 16 games, I am one of the people that sees progress on this team and expect it to start showing up in the win/loss columns soon.

[Northman]

I agree, wins and losses only matter. Been here, done that. Time for results.

[shank]

i agree with tned. north IS stupid.







;)

[robert ethan]

It shouldn't come as a huge surprise. McDaniels elected to go with younger players in most cases, so regardless of the brave words coming from the front office, this is a team in rebuild mode. That is unfair to players like Kyle Orton, Chris Kuper, and Daniel Graham in the prime of their careers, as well as the likes of Champ Bailey, Brian Dawkins, and Jamal Williams, in the twilight of their careers. If he loses those players, the team is toast. None of the players drafted under the new administration has shown signs of being dominant.

The team is perilously close to that meltdown situation. Things are more likely to get worse than better. Who really thinks that Brandon Lloyd and Jabbar Gaffney are top NFL receivers? There is no sign that DeMaryius Thomas or Eric Decker is close to being an impact player at the position. Ditto for Tebow. Rookies and lack of experience have cost the team at least 3 losses so far this season. The linemen have been mediocre at best and experienced quarterbacks pad their stats at the expense of Perrish Cox in the defensive backfield.

[Northman]

i agree with tned. north IS opinionated.







;)


Fixed it for ya. ;)

[Tned]

I agree, wins and losses only matter. Been here, done that. Time for results.

No question, all that matters is wins.

I'm one of the guys that ALWAYS chooses 7-9, when someone puts up a "would you rather have a 7-9 season or a top 5 pick" poll.

I spend six months waiting for training camp to start, and then a month following TC and preseason games before the season, and then in season I cherish every win and fell like I was sucker punched after every loss.

I always choose 7-9, because I would take 7 joyful wins vs. a 2 win season and 'hope' that a top pick will eventually turn things around.

So, the 'progress' I see is somewhat akin to having a 2 or 3 win season and a chance at a top pick. It's something to hope for, but it doesn't replace winning and competing for a playoff spot THIS season.

Having said that, while I would be MUCH happier if we were 12-4 over the last 16 games, the fact is that we aren't.

What we are left with is whether we have a team that is on the verge of competing or a team like the Lions were for many, many years. While I could be wrong, I feel we are much closer to competing than being the Lions.

Our defense has played very well. Our passing game has been almost great (big yards, but still inconsistent when needed most). Our special teams have improved (except for that botched snap -- anomaly).

So, what's left is our running game. Today, for the first time this season, we had some semblance of a running game.

Are we a juggernaut? No, not yet, but I think there is plenty of signs that we are closer to being "good" than we are to being "bad".

[Northman]

No question, all that matters is wins.

I'm one of the guys that ALWAYS chooses 7-9, when someone puts up a "would you rather have a 7-9 season or a top 5 pick" poll.

I spend six months waiting for training camp to start, and then a month following TC and preseason games before the season, and then in season I cherish every win and fell like I was sucker punched after every loss.

I always choose 7-9, because I would take 7 joyful wins vs. a 2 win season and 'hope' that a top pick will eventually turn things around.

So, the 'progress' I see is somewhat akin to having a 2 or 3 win season and a chance at a top pick. It's something to hope for, but it doesn't replace winning and competing for a playoff spot THIS season.

Having said that, while I would be MUCH happier if we were 12-4 over the last 16 games, the fact is that we aren't.

What we are left with is whether we have a team that is on the verge of competing or a team like the Lions were for many, many years. While I could be wrong, I feel we are much closer to competing than being the Lions.

Our defense has played very well. Our passing game has been almost great (big yards, but still inconsistent when needed most). Our special teams have improved (except for that botched snap -- anomaly).

So, what's left is our running game. Today, for the first time this season, we had some semblance of a running game.

Are we a juggernaut? No, not yet, but I think there is plenty of signs that we are closer to being "good" than we are to being "bad".


Yea, but see my problem is we've been "improving" for a while now. We were "improving" when Shanahan got canned. So despite the second makeover this team is at a certain plateau that hasnt improved upon it yet. We've had close games and blowouts in both regimes so i have yet to see what you see here. This is why i wont be satisfied until we win "consistently" and that too me is where the true improvement will lie.

[PAINTERDAVE]

I saw a team today that stepped up to the plate.
I saw some good things today from the coach.

I seriously doubt this team is going to be like the lions...
but I think we are rebuilding.

What with the lockout coming...

I am just being patient and watching the growth.

I discount everything before McD was here...
that era is irrelevant.
I have patienbce with this squad that has only a season and a quarter track record.

No matter what happens this season...

we have to deal with a shortened or a scab year next year...
and then in 2012... it will be Tebow time... and he will have some experience by then...
and I fully expect the McD era to be in full swing.

Losing in 2012 will be UNACCEPTABLE...

right now it is simply rebuilding and growing.

[Tned]

Yea, but see my problem is we've been "improving" for a while now. We were "improving" when Shanahan got canned. So despite the second makeover this team is at a certain plateau that hasnt improved upon it yet. We've had close games and blowouts in both regimes so i have yet to see what you see here. This is why i wont be satisfied until we win "consistently" and that too me is where the true improvement will lie.

For better or worse, Bowlen hired a coach that came in and tore the team down to almost nothing, before building it back up. So, like Painterdave says, you have to discount what came before McD in terms of this current playoff drought/plateau.

For me, when I accept the fact that the decision was made to basically start over, and replace two thirds of the roster, which included the most talented people on offense (Clady excepted), then you have to look at it post tear down and say "are they going in the right direction".

Now, based on "wins" the answer would be no. Based on signs on the field, I am cautiously optimistic.

[BCJ]

I had us losing this one just based on the injuries this week. We had a CB and strong safety out this week and then you add a part timer for Moreno after being out for three weeks just of 3 players. This D played very well and we attacked much more and had them stopped on the run until Tomlinson hit that big run. We had a chance of winning this game despite Orton having his worst game. We ran much better per yard and finally McDaniels saw what many of us fans have wanted; An option at QB where we can give the defense a different look and spread them out for a Tebow wild horse set up. Not happy how we had the game until the end but with the upcoming stretch, no more excuses. Win these games to get us back to .500 .

[topscribe]

Ok, first let me say I am not excited or happy about the loss. I am not happy or excited about the Broncos losing 12 of their last 16 games.

But...

I do see rays of hope, some sunshine poking through the storm clouds.

With the exception of the Ravens game, we were "in" every loss and had a chance to win.

We shut down Chris Johnson, MJD, LT/Green for the most part and Indies run game. One of our glaring weaknesses from recent years has become a strength.

With no running game before today, The Broncos have been able to move the ball with very few turnovers.

This is a game we should have won. Week one against Jax there were so many chances to score and close out the game, not to mention holding on to the win without McBean's back to back facemask personal fouls.

Indy we played tough for most of the game.

The Baltimore game is really the only game we didn't have a legitimate shot at winning. That isn't to say that they all finished close, but that for most of the game we were competing.

Now, the bad part is that with most of those games sloppy play, penalties, and of course the lack of a running game, along with RZ struggles, were the difference of being "in" the game and winning it. So, the ray of sunshine isn't 'too' bright yet, but it's there.

We are through the toughest part of our schedule, and with 6 games against the AFC West and three games against the NFC West, along with Houston, if we play the way we have in five of our first six games, we should be very competitive in our final ten games.

Despite the dismal (and yes, it is ******* dismal) record over the last 16 games, I am one of the people that sees progress on this team and expect it to start showing up in the win/loss columns soon.

Somehow, it was okay when you said it . . . :whoknows:

-----

[Jaws]

I think that it's a sign of progress that I don't feel full of dread when watching them to the same extent as I used to. In the past when they were 14 pts up I never felt comfortable and always felt they would be caught. Now, even when we're behind I feel there's a good chance. I think this team is on it's way. There are flashes of genuine promise.

[BroncoBJ]

I hate finding positives after a loss. I would rather find negatives after a win. :fight:

But something that I looked up that was interesting is that We are the ONLY nfl team thru 6 weeks that EVERY team we have played so far has a winning record. So thats cool.

The Bills are also another team that every team they have played is .500 or better. And after MNF someone will lose so it will just be us and the Bills that have played teams only above .500.

So at least were playing legit teams.

I hope we put together a nice lil win streak now :salute:

[sneakers]

We were competitive and had a chance to win this game (been that way in every game this year except for the Baltimore game). If we were a baseball team I would say "It's way too early to panic, things will even out over 162 games"

[Dean]

We were competitive and had a chance to win this game (been that way in every game this year except for the Baltimore game). If we were a baseball team I would say "It's way too early to panic, things will even out over 162 games"

But then, would you be satisfied with 81 and 81:noidea:

Moving on. Maybe we can knock off the lowly Raiders.

[MileHighCrew]

At this point I think we are good enough to beat anyone and bad enough to loose to anyone. The good news is beacuse of the division this team still has time to get it together. We just finished the hardest part of the schedule, sure not with teh record many of us hoped for but it is over and thanks to the AFC West we are still in it. Time to start a winning streak. After all it is Oakland Week.

[Bill Devaroe]

THis team doesn't have the moxy or the elbow grease to get it done.

At least Tebow was in for a whil I guess. Time to suit him up @ running back, and lets see whathe can do.

We really missed Darcel Mc Bath and Ayers on that last play. Ayers would have brought the heat and darcell would have intercepted it guaranteed,

[Dzone]

Loses are always devastating. It feels like crap. It makes for a less pleasant sunday night and monday morning. But, this game was one that we could and should have won. There is definitely hope for a decent season. Giving Tebow the ball is soooo excellent. Moreno looked like an NFL back a couple times. Beadles is better at RT than Harris. D. Thomas keeps getting better. Eddie Royal is a threat to break a long one evey time he tuches the ball.
I hope to one day actually like Mcd, because I still cant stand him.lol

[atwater27]

I'm one of the guys that ALWAYS chooses 7-9, when someone puts up a "would you rather have a 7-9 season or a top 5 pick" poll.


I can agree with that take, simply because I've seen what we do with higher draft picks....:shocked:

[atwater27]

Hey, I saw some positive signs. Demaryius or whatever his name is scored a TD, the more he gets involved the less I have to see of Lloyd and Gaffney, who are the most overrated receivers in the league.

The D looked surprisingly solid against a big, physical, good offense.

And most importantly, Marcus Thomas had a sack!

[Traveler]

I've been saying since McDaniels was hired that this team is in rebuild mode.

These growing pains are to be expected. We might not like it, be it comes with the territory. Some teams rebuilding have had quick results. But, anything that will last long needs a good foundation. We are headed in the right direction.

One of the few misgivings I have is that Josh has tried to both win now-by adding seasoned veterans-while also trying to add younger players at the same time.

While I think I understand what McDaniels is doing, my preference is that he should have torn everything down, traded or cut any and all players on the downside of their careers and start rebuilding with just younger players- ala KC.

You can't have it both ways IMO. So again, while this season has been disappointing thus far, it's to be expected considering all the rookies getting major playing time. I just wish he would have done this sooner.

[Traveler]

Loses are always devastating. It feels like crap. It makes for a less pleasant sunday night and monday morning. But, this game was one that we could and should have won.

Now we know what the Titans felt like the day after we beat them.

[Jagsbch]

I loved seeing Cox turn around for the ball rather than draw a penalty, he almost had an INT, then there was the Forced Fumble
http://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/image/getty/2010/09000d5d81b692f4_gallery_600.jpg
http://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/image/getty/2010/09000d5d81b66d8a_gallery_600.jpg

Syd came through with an INT
http://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/image/getty/2010/09000d5d81b66ef8_gallery_600.jpg

Josh is such an idiot, what was the deal with the onside kick? Who did he think he was fooling?:D
http://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/image/getty/2010/09000d5d81b66ef9_gallery_600.jpg

Tebow came out on Orange Sunday in his first red zone appearance and did exactly what we knew he could do.

http://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/image/getty/2010/09000d5d81b68924_gallery_600.jpg

[Shazam!]

McD totally outcoached fatso Rex.

We know he can change a QB. KO is great.

I like what McD has done, I just wish it reflected on his record.

Until Denver gets more cohesive upfront, there will be some ugly days on O.

The D can be decent even without Doom.

There is hope for the future.

I think in 2011, the Denver Broncos will be a force to be reckoned with.

[Jagsbch]

McD totally outcoached fatso Rex.

We know he can change a QB. KO is great.



Orton is not Great, Orton Sucks

check out Orton's clutch performance on 3rd down, especially in the second half drives...

Drive 1
3rd down incomplete Orton

Drive 2
3rd down incomplete Orton

Drive 3
TD Orton


Drive 4
Orton sacked on 2nd and 9 setting up 3rd and 17 we run for 2 yards

Drive 5
3rd down pass incomplete

Drive 6
3rd and 9 incomplete pass to a well covered receiver

Drive 7
Fumble on 3rd down last drive falls on his ass looking like a...

This is not great, this is atrocious... especially when you add the four other incomplete passes on 3rd downs by Orton in the first half.

8 drives killed by incomplete passes, 1 by a sack, and one by a fumbled shotgun snap? Orton killed 10 drives? Thats supposed to be great? THAT NOT ONLY SUCKS, THAT WAS PREDICTABLE, BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT HE DOES IN THE CLUTCH, SUCKS...

ORTON WAS NOT THE RAY OF HOPE HE IS THE CLOUD THAT HAS THIS TEAM IN A 4-12 LOSING RUT.

[Thnikkaman]

Hey Jagsbch, how are your gators doing?

[Jagsbch]

Art 1
(http://bleacherreport.com/articles/480706-florida-gators-put-on-a-clinic-for-being-out-coached-by-alabama)Art 2 (http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1093021#post1093021)

Yeah, well I did write a couple of articles about their seemingly cursed disposition. Just goes to show the difference Tebow can Make. Speaking of Tebow...:D:D


I see Orton play and I know I am going to come off as a Tebow homer when I say this, but for the life of me I can't resist.

Hey Tebow could have had a 52.8 first half QB rating Yesterday
Hey Tebow could have had a 41.2 completion percentage for the entire game.
Hey Tebow can throw an incomplete pass, after incomplete pass on 3rd downs...
Hey Tebow can lose games...
Hey Tebow can fumble the ball on the last game winning drive
Hey Tebow can throw an INT on a game winning drive
Hey Tebow can have a 2.8 yards per passing attempt in the Red Zone.
Tebow can have a 67.5 QB rating in the 4th when th game is within 7.
Hey Tebow can get sacked 6 times in a game...
Hey Tebow can go 0-12 in the red zone with half of the games we played. Well the Jury is still out on that one, considering he is 100% there.

The distinctual difference between Tebow and Orton that I have managed to surmise is that Orton is who he is, the ceiling is not going to be raised any higher with his presence on the field.

However Tebows ceiling could have been well jacked up by now had Josh McDaniels not wasted 6 games of this season keeping of the ceiling of this team grounded in a losing rut of a 4-12 stretch the past 16 games with Orton at the helm.

[topscribe]

Art 1
(http://bleacherreport.com/articles/480706-florida-gators-put-on-a-clinic-for-being-out-coached-by-alabama)Art 2 (http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1093021#post1093021)

Yeah, well I did write a couple of articles about their seemingly cursed disposition. Just goes to show the difference Tebow can Make. Speaking of Tebow...:D:D


I see Orton play and I know I am going to come off as a Tebow homer when I say this, but for the life of me I can't resist.

Hey Tebow could have had a 52.8 first half QB rating Yesterday
Hey Tebow could have had a 41.2 completion percentage for the entire game.
Hey Tebow can throw an incomplete pass, after incomplete pass on 3rd downs...
Hey Tebow can lose games...
Hey Tebow can fumble the ball on the last game winning drive
Hey Tebow can throw an INT on a game winning drive
Hey Tebow can have a 2.8 yards per passing attempt in the Red Zone.
Tebow can have a 67.5 QB rating in the 4th when th game is within 7.
Hey Tebow can get sacked 6 times in a game...
Hey Tebow can go 0-12 in the red zone with half of the games we played. Well the Jury is still out on that one, considering he is 100% there.

The distinctual difference between Tebow and Orton that I have managed to surmise is that Orton is who he is, the ceiling is not going to be raised any higher with his presence on the field.

However Tebows ceiling could have been well jacked up by now had Josh McDaniels not wasted 6 games of this season keeping of the ceiling of this team grounded in a losing rut of a 4-12 stretch the past 16 games with Orton at the helm.

It appears to me you absolutely glossed over the title of this thread: "there are
some rays of hope." It was not intended to be a comparison between Tebow
and Orton. Please troll somewhere else . . .

-----

[Lonestar]

Yea, but see my problem is we've been "improving" for a while now. We were "improving" when Shanahan got canned..

I'll just respond to this part.

We had a failing ZBS running scheme that was ok between the 20's the passing the same.

Same REDZONE issuses since TD,CP left with much of the old OLINE.
Our defense sucked forever either playing the run tough and being a tissuse paper pass defense or vice versa and ST were a joke for much of mike reign.

Sorry but mike did not have anymore answers than does this almost rookie HC. But I see light at the end of the tunnel with Josh and all the kiddies he has brought in.

I know you and I will never see eye to eye on this. So may have to agree to disagree.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

[Lonestar]

I can agree with that take, simply because I've seen what we do with higher draft picks....:shocked:

In years past we would fubar it at least Josh would turn it into a bunch of picks in late round one and a bunch in 2. :laugh:
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

[topscribe]

In years past we would fubar it at least Josh would turn it into a bunch of picks in late round one and a bunch in 2. :laugh:
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

We know Moreno is here to stay, and Ayers is beginning to justify his high pick.
Beadles has apparently displaced who last year was regarded as a top tackle in
the league. Walton is a budding star. Even the Phonz is now apparently tearing
it up over Detroit way. I'm not sure if Tebow was worth a 1st rounder (my opinion),
but he is proving to be a good athlete.

DT is an obvious beast, and Decker is regarded as can't miss.

I don't see as many FUBARs there as others seem to . . .

-----

[ydave77]

Who really thinks that Brandon Lloyd and Jabbar Gaffney are top NFL receivers?

Seriously? Don't want to cherry pick one statment out of your entire post, but I was just surprised to read this. Have you seen Lloyd this yr? The guy catches balls that very few others would have gotten. He did drop an easy one yesterday, but that is by far the exception. That one at the end of the game, with Revis all over him, was amazing. The guy always had talent, but could never put it together.

For everyone who gets so annoyed about our former players leaving and putting together good years, how do you you think SF, and WAS feel about letting this guy go...
We make mistakes, and so do other teams. This stuff works both ways, and it always will.

[BigDaddyBronco]

I'll just respond to this part.

We had a failing ZBS running scheme that was ok between the 20's the passing the same.

Same REDZONE issuses since TD,CP left with much of the old OLINE.
Our defense sucked forever either playing the run tough and being a tissuse paper pass defense or vice versa and ST were a joke for much of mike reign.

Sorry but mike did not have anymore answers than does this almost rookie HC. But I see light at the end of the tunnel with Josh and all the kiddies he has brought in.

I know you and I will never see eye to eye on this. So may have to agree to disagree.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums
I still think Shanny is a better game day coach than McD is on the offensive side of the ball. He isn't predictable and can find ways to score even if he can't pound it in.

McD has a better passing scheme and a much better defensive scheme, but his red zone scoring and ST aren't any better. McD looks a little better as a GM, but his first draft was FUBAR as well.

But Shanny had to go because he wouldn't fire Slowick, pure and simple.

[BORDERLINE]

McD totally outcoached fatso Rex.

this i agree with. except the last 2 drives we had the lead with. He attempted to run out he clock by running, but it would have helped if we would have had a running game.IDK what he was thinkin there...and that onside kick was a great call on mcD part. If we would have been able to get some points of it would have been better

[topscribe]

McD totally outcoached fatso Rex.

We know he can change a QB. KO is great.

I like what McD has done, I just wish it reflected on his record.

Until Denver gets more cohesive upfront, there will be some ugly days on O.

The D can be decent even without Doom.

There is hope for the future.

I think in 2011, the Denver Broncos will be a force to be reckoned with.

Generally agree.

But just a quick note about Rex: Did you listen to his postgame interview? The
guy was nothing but class. Gave props to the Broncos you wouldn't believe . . .

-----

[Lonestar]

I've been saying since McDaniels was hired that this team is in rebuild mode.

These growing pains are to be expected. We might not like it, be it comes with the territory. Some teams rebuilding have had quick results. But, anything that will last long needs a good foundation. We are headed in the right direction.

One of the few misgivings I have is that Josh has tried to both win now-by adding seasoned veterans-while also trying to add younger players at the same time.

While I think I understand what McDaniels is doing, my preference is that he should have torn everything down, traded or cut any and all players on the downside of their careers and start rebuilding with just younger players- ala KC.

You can't have it both ways IMO. So again, while this season has been disappointing thus far, it's to be expected considering all the rookies getting major playing time. I just wish he would have done this sooner.

I have always believed that you win or lose at the LOS Period .

Without a solid base on both sides of it, it is smoke and mirrors .

The oline is a work in progress not sure if Zane is the answer at ORT or not but I have liked what I have seen from him and could be a long term solution.

we have excepting Champ and Dawkins in the DB area some kiddies that show potential will they ever be Champ and Dawk proabbaly not but I do not beleive you have to have all pros back there if the rest of the front seven are stellar.

Offense wins you games but Defense wins you championships. I see us going there slowly but surely.

[Lonestar]

I still think Shanny is a better game day coach than McD is on the offensive side of the ball. He isn't predictable and can find ways to score even if he can't pound it in.

McD has a better passing scheme and a much better defensive scheme, but his red zone scoring and ST aren't any better. McD looks a little better as a GM, but his first draft was FUBAR as well.

But Shanny had to go because he wouldn't fire Slowick, pure and simple.

I think Mike jsut looked better at forst becaue of all teh HOF talent he was workoing with .

Yes he was a offensive Genius but I suspect we may have another one budding.

I was mad as hell yesterday that we did not did hurry up Offense all day and had we done no huddle by the middle of the third period they would have hoisted the white flag.

Did not really like the conservative vein later in the game. But I'm guessing he thought our D could hold them so was content to play it safe and punt verses airing it out.

But overall I'm liking what I'm seeing.

[broncofaninfla]

I'm not suggesting for a minute that Tebow start over Orton BUT the defense def seemed off balalnce with him in there. The additional threat will pay dividends when Tebow eventually takes the helm.

[Lonestar]

I'm not suggesting for a minute that Tebow start over Orton BUT the defense def seemed off balalnce with him in there. The additional threat will pay dividends when Tebow eventually takes the helm.

When he knows the playbook and can execute it like Orton does he will indeed bring another dimension to the team.

I;m still trying to figure out the why of having Orton lined up as a WR. the last time I noticed NO ONE was covering him or within 5 yards of him.

All that did was put more folks near the box.

The only thing I can think they could do with him is have him step back after catching a lateral and throw it to an open WR.

Beyond that he is as worthless out there as a Teat on a boar. No way I want him taking a shot after running with the reception.

[The Glue Factory]

I'll just respond to this part.

We had a failing ZBS running scheme that was ok between the 20's the passing the same.

Same REDZONE issuses since TD,CP left with much of the old OLINE.
Our defense sucked forever either playing the run tough and being a tissuse paper pass defense or vice versa and ST were a joke for much of mike reign.

Sorry but mike did not have anymore answers than does this almost rookie HC. But I see light at the end of the tunnel with Josh and all the kiddies he has brought in.

I know you and I will never see eye to eye on this. So may have to agree to disagree.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums


We're definitely in rebuild mode when 32 of past players are no longer playing in the NFL because they were rejects to begin with. How do you go about replacing those 32 players and remain competitive? Past coach was great for coaching up those rejects enough to be 8-8 but why did we even have that many in the first place? McD decided to clean house and rebuild.

Unfortunately, you've got a lot of people complaining it isn't enough; pointing to other teams that have rebuilt and gone to the playoffs in one year. How many of those teams had to jettison 32 rejects not worthy to work in the NFL? The Broncos are a work in progress and the early indications are that McD is going to make things really good. He just needs some time to get things right.

Like it or not, turning this train around is going to take time and there will be some very painful blows that demanding things to be different isn't going to make it so. At least things aren't as bad as they were in the 60's.

[Lonestar]

We're definitely in rebuild mode when 32 of past players are no longer playing in the NFL because they were rejects to begin with. How do you go about replacing those 32 players and remain competitive? Past coach was great for coaching up those rejects enough to be 8-8 but why did we even have that many in the first place? McD decided to clean house and rebuild.

Unfortunately, you've got a lot of people complaining it isn't enough; pointing to other teams that have rebuilt and gone to the playoffs in one year. How many of those teams had to jettison 32 rejects not worthy to work in the NFL? The Broncos are a work in progress and the early indications are that McD is going to make things really good. He just needs some time to get things right.

Like it or not, turning this train around is going to take time and there will be some very painful blows that demanding things to be different isn't going to make it so. At least things aren't as bad as they were in the 60's.


Your correct not as bad as I remember those first years when we were in spoiler mode about game 5.

some of those teams that turned around fast had been drafting 3-4 players in the top 100 each year for in DET case for 7-8 years or so.. mostly decent to good players just had lousy coaching. until that last coach was jettisoned. now like KC has a lot of 2-4 year players that are not looking bad at all.

took a quality OC and superb DC to put it all together.

Yes 32 garbage players were shit canned in DEN 8 of the 11 starters on D are not longer in the NFL.

And frankly even if we had kept those 2 extra picks for tebow could we afford two more rookies on this team.

Josh was smart to bring in Bannan and Williams this year to anchor the DL. I suspect he would have used more picks on DL this year had they not thought Baker had promise. Yet Marcus T seems to be stepping up his play so Maybe the 07 draft was not a total waste.

[Jagsbch]

It appears to me you absolutely glossed over the title of this thread: "there are
some rays of hope." It was not intended to be a comparison between Tebow
and Orton. Please troll somewhere else . . .

-----

Tebow is a ray of hope...

[The Glue Factory]

Tebow is a ray of hope...

As are Ayers, D. Thomas and a host of others McD has drafted in the past 2 years.

[dogfish]

good post, T. . .

one that demands a rambling, long-winded answer. . . :D

two points, long term and short term. . . like most things, it's all just a matter of perspective. . . i understand people's frustration and impatience. . . i'm a denver broncos fan, not a josh mcdaniels fan, and i have no interest in defending the guy just because he's our coach. . .

i never view a season as the zero-sum game that a lot of fans do-- it's just how i'm wired. . . i can't help but look at the long term perspective. . . no one year is all or nothing. . . i absolutely understand fans who say record is the only thing that matters-- i just don't agree. . . it's NOT the only thing that matters to me. . . win lose or draw, i'm also looking for player development, the evolution of our schemes, etc. . .

most people right now probably think 2-4 is the story of our season, which certainly seems like a reasonable point of view. . . to me, the story of this season is the development of kyle orton. . . i know most fans will call this year a total loss if we don't make the playoffs, but i might not. . . if we come out of this year with a QB who can help us reach and win playoff games in the future, i'll call that a moderate success. . .

seriously, this is a QB-driven league, and you almost have to have a good one if you're going to be a consistent contender. . . IMO, it's the single biggest difference between the haves and the have-nots in this league, and hands down THE most difficult position to fill when you don't have one. . . other holes are easier to patch-- but a franchise without a QB is a franchise without direction. . .

i would assume that many if not most broncos fans are still looking at orton as a guy who's keeping the seat warm for tebow. . . i myself am not at all convinced that that scenario is written in stone-- quite frankly, i can very much see a situation developing where orton is our guy going forward-- not just this year, and possibly next. . . we'll see. . . if tebow does replace orton, it should be because he's playing as well or better-- so either way, our QB situation looks a lot better than it did six months ago. . .

and i can't help but feel that as long as we get solid QB play, our other issues are fixable. . . doesn't guarantee that they WILL get fixed, of course-- but the development of our passing game makes me hopeful. . . i came into this year saying that i wanted to feel like we were progressing, regardless of record, and so far i do feel that way. . . if other people will only accept concrete results, that's fine-- it's certainly their prerogative. . .

[dogfish]

now, in terms of short terms reactions and my thoughts about this game. . .

i haven't had a chance to re-watch it, so these are all "naked eye" observations, take 'em for what they're worth. . .

i think hunter is really making strides in his run defense-- he's taking better angles and not giving up the edge. . . i pointed out after week one that a few of the bigger runs we gave up were on plays where he pursued down the line too aggressively and gave up his outside contain responsibility. . . he's not doing that now, and our run D has benefitted. . . i think he's showing a pretty solid ability to set the edge when he's in position. . .

hunter's not a good starter, but i think he's going to develop into a quality keeper as a depth/rotational guy. . . long term, it'll be nice to have another tough run-defending OLB to pair with ayers. . . hunter can replace doom on obvious running downs to give us more size, and keep our elite pass rusher a little fresher to do what we paid him all that loot to do. . .

another guy that's caught my eye some this year is marcus thomas. . . i still don't ever think he's going to be great, but IMO he has quietly shown some flashes this year. . . he has enough quickness off the snap to be ocassionally disruptive when he's fresh, and IMO is a much better fit at 5-tech than nosetackle. . .

again, not a good starter, but i think he's developing into a guy that can be a valuable reserve going forward. . . that's a big part of building depth, which is a process that a lot of fans quite frankly just don't understand. . . i remember when we signed marlon mccree and marquand manuel-- a number of people were talking about how much better our depth at safety just got, and i remember thinking "yea right-- those guys are stiffs, our depth's not a bit better". . .

some people confuse having warm bodies at a spot for having legit depth, and it's not the same at all. . . every team has their roster filled, but just because there's a name listed there doesn't mean you have good depth. . . at ALL. . .

right now i think we have good depth at WR and cornerback, nowhere else. . . and having a talented rookie behind a good starter is probably about as much "depth" as anyone has at QB. . . otherwise our depth ain't great-- but if some of these guys asked to step into roles this year prove capable of keeping their heads above water, it should get better in the coming years. . . turning over a roster is a process-- it doesn't happen overnight. . .

it was good to see perrish cox bounce back and play tighter coverage this week-- i'm always going to cut a rookie some slack, but it was still worriesome seeing him get abused the past few weeks. . .

i was also REALLY happy to see syd thompson out there, even if it was only due to injury. . . i'm pretty much clamoring to get him on the field at this point. . . he may not have the measureables, but this kid is just a gamer-- find a way to get him out there. . . i'd like to see him handling the bulk of our return duties. . . i trust him to catch the ball, and given the disparity between his value and eddie's as positional players, i just don't think the difference in their ability as returners is enough to justify using royal there. . . syd has the ball skills, short area quickness, and aggressive mentality to make an impact on returns, coverage units, and as a nickel/dime corner. . . he has a serious nose for the ball and he's utterly fearless. . . get him involved. . .

speaking of which, i also think i like nate jones better as a safety than as a corner. . . i just don't think he has the footspeed to really excell at corner-- IMO he's definitely a better fit in zone coverage, or manning up TEs rather than WRs. . . if we ever get our secondary fully healthy, i'd like to see them promote syd to the dime spot and put jones in a permanent rover role-- specifically, using him as the third safety in a big nickel type of package designed to deal with TEs. . .

overall, i was proud of the way our vastly-undermanned defense hung in there and traded punches with one of the league's elite units. . . i think martindale looks like a competent DC so far, and i'm very much looking forward to seeing what this group looks like when we can put doom out there across from ayers. . .

D. thomas is a f'n beast-- our passing game is going to be wicked when we get this kid up to speed. . . the way lloyd's playing right now, thinking about him consistently getting single coverage because they have to roll over the top to DT just makes me drool. . . and then you open up the entire middle of the field for eddie. . . people who say we don't have any gamechanging type of talent need to take a closer look at this kid, 'cuz he bears a fairly distinct resemblance to a young andre johnson. . . we'll see if he can take his game to that level, but the skills are clearly there. . .

i am really leaning towards the belief that health permitting we should just go with beadles at ORT for the rest of the year, unless they want to start him at OLG if/when harris is healthy. . .

i also kinda wish mcD wouldn't have benched knowshon so quickly. . . not that i have any problem with a guy being benched for fumbling, but i also believe there's something to be said for letting guys play through mistakes. . . he's a young player who missed all of camp and has barely touched a football since last year-- be a little slower with the hook. . . he's the only RB we have who's even possibly worth a damn going forward-- i persist in my belief that at some point we would really benefit from giving hima chance to get in rhythm. . . as much as i haven't been pleased with the way our backs run, it's admittedly not easier for them when no one guy ever gets more than one or two touches in a row. . .

and like pretty much everyone, i agree that we're going to have to let tebow throw it from the wild ass formation at some point if we really want to maximize its effectiveness. . .

[Northman]

Goddamnit Dog, dont you have the cliff notes version of your posts? lol