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View Full Version : Whats the obsession with ex role players?



ogplife
10-10-2010, 05:50 PM
This thread has nothing to do with Cutler or Marshall, as both situations were unique. My question is what is the obsession with ex bronco role players? Tony Scheffler, Peyton Hillis are the most talked about guy on this forum and I'm sure Alphonso Smith won't be far behind (although he was hated by many). What is the obsession with these guys. They are role players. They are good in certain schemes and situations and not good in others. None of those guys were great fits for our schemes (not saying they could not contribute at all) and we let them move on. I don't like the value we got for Scheffler or Smith. I didn't have a problem with the Hillis trade and still don't because Quinn and Tebow forced Kyle to take his game to another level. Anyway for every one of those guys we let go we have one of those on our roster, Lloyd, Vickerson, Hunter, oh and some guy named Kyle Orton. Journeyman/Castoffs excelling in our system. Guys playing great in other systems does not make them great and guys excelling in our system aren't FHOF's either. There are plenty of CFL players that could be in the NFL, but never found their "fit" and are deemed unfit to play in the NFL. I don't know if it is lack of football knowledge, emotion (which is not a bad thing) or just general dislike for MCD that makes people bring those guys up, but its getting old and I don't think it should dominate every discussion held on the forum.

Northman
10-10-2010, 05:57 PM
I dont have a problem with Sheff gone. He made some comments in the lockerroom that he shouldnt have and you can never have that. Plus, McD doesnt utilize the TE even though his master in NE utilizes the TE a LOT. But, it is what it is.

As for Hillis, its a little more complicated. Although the NE scheme does use a RB out of the backfield for screen passes and sweeps the backs on NE also run downhill. But, our current roster of backs cant do that and Hillis was a guy who could. So, at this point its still baffling as too why he was traded. Cleveland utilizes Hillis the EXACT same way that New England utilizes their backs. Exactly the same way.

broncobryce
10-10-2010, 05:58 PM
Good post.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

Northman
10-10-2010, 05:58 PM
Good post.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

Thanks. :D

sneakers
10-10-2010, 06:04 PM
I miss Ron Dayne!

(Go Badgers!)

ogplife
10-10-2010, 06:10 PM
I dont have a problem with Sheff gone. He made some comments in the lockerroom that he shouldnt have and you can never have that. Plus, McD doesnt utilize the TE even though his master in NE utilizes the TE a LOT. But, it is what it is.

As for Hillis, its a little more complicated. Although the NE scheme does use a RB out of the backfield for screen passes and sweeps the backs on NE also run downhill. But, our current roster of backs cant do that and Hillis was a guy who could. So, at this point its still baffling as too why he was traded. Cleveland utilizes Hillis the EXACT same way that New England utilizes their backs. Exactly the same way.

To Mcd's defense, I think he recognized the need for a downhill runner and got White, but we got unlucky. Orton playing lights out makes Hillis trade look really bad and pointless, but it was actually a good gamble that had two ways to pay off. Help motivitate Orton or Quinn play well. We got one out of the two (and who knows what Quinn could do if he was the number one guy working with MCD getting the reps and attention Orton does). Orton has been a top five qb this year (no im not saying he is a top 5 qb). If somebody said I'll trade Hillis to help Kyle Orton play at this level. I don't think anybody would turn that trade down, but I don't want to take this thread off topic. The point of the thread was not to assess the trade, but to say that this happens with every team, not just Denver.

Northman
10-10-2010, 06:17 PM
To Mcd's defense, I think he recognized the need for a downhill runner and got White, but we got unlucky. Orton playing lights out makes Hillis trade look really bad and pointless, but it was actually a good gamble that had two ways to pay off. Help motivitate Orton or Quinn play well. We got one out of the two (and who knows what Quinn could do if he was the number one guy working with MCD getting the reps and attention Orton does). Orton has been a top five qb this year (no im not saying he is a top 5 qb). If somebody said I'll trade Hillis to help Kyle Orton play at this level. I don't think anybody would turn that trade down.

Depends who you talk too. Topscribe has been saying all offseason that Orton is a very good QB anyway who only suffered because of an ankle injury in the past. So far, nothing is there to prove him wrong on that account. Secondly, drafting Tebow in the first round should be motivation enough honestly. Its not much different from the Jake/Jay senario but Orton responded much better to the competition. Problem for McD is, trading Hillis was REALLY bad. Hillis didnt have a history of injury problems which is something that haunts our backfield with the castoffs that we have gotten. White? Seriously. Overrated on all levels.

If even his former college coach didnt need or want him is quite telling. Its easy to see why Jay, Brandon, Sheff, and Phonz were traded. They all either had some baggage or didnt step up to the plate. Problem for Peyton was he was never really given a serious chance under McD. Maybe there was some other issue but that would be pure speculation on our parts and we can only go by what we know. You simply cant blame people for being a little miffed that a guy we had (and some believed in) is tearing it up for another team when he is doing exactly what it is that our scheme calls for. Sure, we have to move on but until McD is fired or whatever his decisions as a HC would continued to be talked about. It happened with past coaches so dont expect it to change anytime soon. Its the life of a HC in sports.

Oldschoolcrush
10-10-2010, 06:22 PM
Here is the point..... Cutler was traded, and, Orton is doing well. What few understand is that the position had to be filled and done so with options.... Quinn was one of those options and ultimately became 3rd on the depth chart.... Again, so you understand... THIRD! McD traded Hillis for that option and lost the most underrated talent the broncos had.... The average person is supposed to say... "WHO?", but we're talking about the person who is supposed to see ever aspect of the team.
Ultimately, Hillis ended up being a gift to Cleveland.... What did we receive in return? Nothing!
You can even pick up a quarterback for your roster when your number one goes down... You don't trade talent like this to acquire a quarterback that becomes 3rd on the depth chart...... Hillis was a casualty of risk assessment with potential problems with the quarterback position.
The point is when you skeletonize a team to this extent through trades, you never get as much in return. To fill one spot, you can receive something that suits your needs much better by sacrificing talent in a place where you have depth..... To suggest there was enough depth to warrant all the trading is ridiculous.... There should have been team building, doing so through acquisition combined with very selective trading.

LordTrychon
10-10-2010, 06:22 PM
I personally kind of grow attached to Broncos players... even in a short amount of time.

I like to continue to root for them even when their gone except in the most extreme circumstance... Kennison.

I don't continually bash McD for Hillis or the others being gone, but I do wish we still had Hillis. I don't blame him for pulling the trigger on what could have been a good value trade... doesn't look so good now, but that's ok. Still, we'd be better if we could have that one back, I think.

Gimpygod
10-10-2010, 06:23 PM
because some of our glaring needs could have been filled by these players.

Oldschoolcrush
10-10-2010, 06:37 PM
Did we have red zone problems last season?
To think Moreno and Buckhalter are going to miraculously change that this season is absurd.
Hint, the Broncos already needed a head of steam in that position; even with their "top" two RB's perfectly healthy.....

I mean WTF? Maroney? He looks like he's running in slo mo..... The only gain was off of a delay, the OL had to create a hole for him to run or he was going nowhere..... Peyton Hillis runs over people and creates a hole for himself.
He wasn't even utilized last season! It's bizarre!

PAINTERDAVE
10-10-2010, 07:32 PM
The deal with Hillis is he was so good when we needed him in Shanny's last year. Then he got hurt.
So many of us truly think he has a ton of upside... and we were excited to see what the kid could do.

Then McD never used him... then traded him... now he is shining for Cleveland.
That in and of itself is tough for some of us to watch...
then add in our RB's all injured and the ones we have being unable to gain a freakin inch...

it just is tough to watch.

Those other guys, with the attitude problems and the underachievers?? Meh.

I dont miss a one of them.

Dreadnought
10-10-2010, 07:44 PM
The deal with Hillis is he was so good when we needed him in Shanny's last year. Then he got hurt.
So many of us truly think he has a ton of upside... and we were excited to see what the kid could do.

Then McD never used him... then traded him... now he is shining for Cleveland.
That in and of itself is tough for some of us to watch...
then add in our RB's all injured and the ones we have being unable to gain a freakin inch...

it just is tough to watch.

Those other guys, with the attitude problems and the underachievers?? Meh.

I dont miss a one of them.

Great take on Hillis. As to Scheffler, the fact that he was used as a "role player" to begin with pissed me off. We all have favorite "type" players, and favorite plays. IMO blocking TE's are near useless; a TE should be a receiving threat first. If he is fast enough to work the deeper seam routes you have something special. Scheffler racked up YPC figures in his time here that were superb; TE's used to catch in the 15+ YPC range back in the 60's, fer crissakes, and here he was in this day and age outperforming most of the WR's in the league. The fact that McD couldn't figure out a way to use him tells me McD isn't an imaginative or clever coach. I also suspect that he, like Hillis, got run out of town because McD didn't know what to do with them. Scheff got badmouthed on top of it IMO, because I don't belierve Mcd's version of the Scheffler/Marshall benching. Doesn't pass the laugh test.

Northman
10-10-2010, 07:47 PM
Great take on Hillis. As to Scheffler, the fact that he was used as a "role player" to begin with pissed me off. We all have favorite "type" players, and favorite plays. IMO blocking TE's are near useless; a TE should be a receiving threat first. If he is fast enough to work the deeper seam routes you have something special. Scheffler racked up YPC figures in his time here that were superb; TE's used to catch in the 15+ YPC range back in the 60's, fer crissakes, and here he was in this day and age outperforming most of the WR's in the league. The fact that McD couldn't figure out a way to use him tells me McD isn't an imaginative or clever coach. I also suspect that he, like Hillis, got run out of town because McD didn't know what to do with them. Scheff got badmouthed on top of it IMO, because I don't belierve Mcd's version of the Scheffler/Marshall benching. Doesn't pass the laugh test.

The thing that really baffles me is that NE already has Watson. But, then the Pats go and draft Hernandez who is already outperforming our guy Quinn and Graham. So, if our offense is tailored after the NE format than why arent we following it? Because, i look at Peyton in Cleveland and he is doing exactly what NE does with their backs. I look at Hernandez and he is a receiving threat which we dont do here. I dont get it.

Tned
10-10-2010, 07:51 PM
The thing that really baffles me is that NE already has Watson. But, then the Pats go and draft Hernandez who is already outperforming our guy Quinn and Graham. So, if our offense is tailored after the NE format than why arent we following it? Because, i look at Peyton in Cleveland and he is doing exactly what NE does with their backs. I look at Hernandez and he is a receiving threat which we dont do here. I dont get it.

And for those that say that Hillis is a role or situational player, Cleveland is using him as an every down back. Whether it's 1st and goal, or third and 15 from Shotgun, Hillis is in there. He's one of the leading receivers on the team, along with the rushing success.

It's hard to see how the Broncos couldn't have used such a versatile back.

Northman
10-10-2010, 07:52 PM
And for those that say that Hillis is a role or situational player, Cleveland is using him as an every down back. Whether it's 1st and goal, or third and 15 from Shotgun, Hillis is in there. He's one of the leading receivers on the team, along with the rushing success.

It's hard to see how the Broncos couldn't have used such a versatile back.

Yea, i was getting ready to say he had the lone TD today and it was one out of the backfield as a receiver.

Tned
10-10-2010, 08:07 PM
Yea, i was getting ready to say he had the lone TD today and it was one out of the backfield as a receiver.

Making a hell of a catch. Ball was overthrown, and he reaches out and flicks it towards himself, catches it with his finger tips around waist high, gets a solid grip, without really breaking stried and runs in for the score (~18 yards total).

He wasn't made the full time starter until week 3, and he still has 20 receptions on the year, on pace for 65 or so, along with being on pace for 1,100 yards and 16 TDs.

Not too bad for a "short yardage" fullback.

Denver Native (Carol)
10-10-2010, 08:13 PM
I personally kind of grow attached to Broncos players... even in a short amount of time.

I like to continue to root for them even when their gone except in the most extreme circumstance... Kennison.

I don't continually bash McD for Hillis or the others being gone, but I do wish we still had Hillis. I don't blame him for pulling the trigger on what could have been a good value trade... doesn't look so good now, but that's ok. Still, we'd be better if we could have that one back, I think.

I liked Hillis, but I really don't feel the lack of our running game has anything to do with the runners - I believe it is the OL. Therefore, even if Hillis were still here, he may have the same problems our other runners are having now. We will never know.

broncogirl7
10-10-2010, 08:18 PM
I will always believe trading Hillis was "one" of the worst moves McDaniels has made. Unfortunately, each week Hillis plays for the dog pound confirms my beliefs.

Denver Native (Carol)
10-10-2010, 08:20 PM
I will always believe trading Hillis was "one" of the worst moves McDaniels has made. Unfortunately, each week Hillis plays for the dog pound confirms my beliefs.

One player does not make a team - as good as Hillis is doing, the Browns are 1 - 4.

broncogirl7
10-10-2010, 08:21 PM
One player does not make a team - as good as Hillis is doing, the Browns are 1 - 4.

I realize one player doesn't make a team:rolleyes:
Hillis is a play maker and could've helped the Broncos on the field.

Tned
10-10-2010, 08:22 PM
I liked Hillis, but I really don't feel the lack of our running game has anything to do with the runners - I believe it is the OL. Therefore, even if Hillis were still here, he may have the same problems our other runners are having now. We will never know.

Try and find some Browns' highlights. Hillis consistantly gets 2, 3, 6 yards or more after contact. Many times he is hit at the LOS, and breaks the tackle for a positive gain.

Something I posted yesterday was that something like 80% of his yards have come after initial contact. Our backs don't break tackles, and they aren't good at finding the holes. Would Hillis have run for 144 yards against the Ravens behind the Broncos line, like he did a couple weeks ago behind the Browns? I don't think so, but he would likely have done better than our guys. Our guys are slow, tentative, indecisive and go down on first contact. Hillis doesn't have any of those traits.

PAINTERDAVE
10-10-2010, 08:23 PM
Great take on Hillis. As to Scheffler, the fact that he was used as a "role player" to begin with pissed me off. We all have favorite "type" players, and favorite plays. IMO blocking TE's are near useless; a TE should be a receiving threat first. If he is fast enough to work the deeper seam routes you have something special. Scheffler racked up YPC figures in his time here that were superb; TE's used to catch in the 15+ YPC range back in the 60's, fer crissakes, and here he was in this day and age outperforming most of the WR's in the league. The fact that McD couldn't figure out a way to use him tells me McD isn't an imaginative or clever coach. I also suspect that he, like Hillis, got run out of town because McD didn't know what to do with them. Scheff got badmouthed on top of it IMO, because I don't belierve Mcd's version of the Scheffler/Marshall benching. Doesn't pass the laugh test.

Yeah... we used to have guy named Shannon that was a pretty good TE. Look at Gates for SD.

This years squad is just so lacking in more than a few areas...

KCL
10-10-2010, 08:24 PM
I have wondered what was the point of bringing Quinn to Denver? I may not know what I'm talking about but that seems like a waste of a roster spot.What else did Denver get in the trade? Seems like Denver in years past always had a few good backs on the team at any given time? Has Quinn even had much playing time?

broncogirl7
10-10-2010, 08:26 PM
I have wondered what was the point of bringing Quinn to Denver? I may not know what I'm talking about but that seems like a waste of a roster spot.What else did Denver get in the trade? Seems like Denver in years past always had a few good backs on the team at any given time? Has Quinn even had much playing time?

Although he's adorable, he's sucked and will probably be next on chopping block...:eek::shocked::eek:

Tned
10-10-2010, 08:27 PM
I have wondered what was the point of bringing Quinn to Denver? I may not know what I'm talking about but that seems like a waste of a roster spot.What else did Denver get in the trade? Seems like Denver in years past always had a few good backs on the team at any given time? Has Quinn even had much playing time?

Denver didn't get anything else, they gave up Hillis and a sixth (might have been two sixth's, with one of them being conditional -- I can't remember).

I think the thinking was that they needed a replacement for Simms as backup, and probably thought Quinn could compete for the starting job. I don't think McDaniels fell in love with Tebow until after the Quinn trade. As it's been reported, it was after the one on one time between Tebow and McDaniels that he became very impressed with Tebow. The Quinn trade had already been done, I believe. Even if it hadn't been, there would still be no guarantee that someone wouldn't have drated Tebow before McDaniels got the chance.

Northman
10-10-2010, 08:31 PM
I have wondered what was the point of bringing Quinn to Denver? I may not know what I'm talking about but that seems like a waste of a roster spot.What else did Denver get in the trade? Seems like Denver in years past always had a few good backs on the team at any given time? Has Quinn even had much playing time?

All they got was "potential".

ogplife
10-10-2010, 08:32 PM
If we gave back Hillis and sent back Lloyd, what would our record be? Every team, emphasis on every team has these situations. Did fans connect with these guys (particularly Hillis) in some sort of special way that I don't understand. Once again thse guys are role players. Not saying they could not help our team, but they will not make or break our team. No matter how great you guys feel Hillis is, he is not Chris Johnson, he may have averaged 3.0-3.5 yards per carry at best, better than what we have, but not enough to change the dynamic of this team. If you really believe he was going to average the same 5 yards per carry he is with a pretty good O line, the same line that took a relative nobody like Jerome Harrison and put him on the map (Yes everything about Cleveland is not bad)then you are delusional and you do believe he will be a hall of famer one day. More power to anyone that feels that way.

KCL
10-10-2010, 08:33 PM
One player does not make a team - as good as Hillis is doing, the Browns are 1 - 4.

Carol the Chiefs finished 4-12 last season...Charles started 8 games and finished the season with over 1100 yards rushing behind a horrible OL.

Tned
10-10-2010, 08:34 PM
If we gave back Hillis and sent back Lloyd, what would our record be? Every team, emphasis on every team has these situations. Did fans connect with these guys (particularly Hillis) in some sort of special way that I don't understand. Once again thse guys are role players. Not saying they could not help our team, but they will not make or break our team. No matter how great you guys feel Hillis is, he is not Chris Johnson, he may have averaged 3.0-3.5 yards per carry at best, better than what we have, but not enough to change the dynamic of this team. If you really believe he was going to average the same 5 yards per carry he is with a pretty good O line, the same line that took a relative nobody like Jerome Harrison and put him on the map (Yes everything about Cleveland is not bad)then you are delusional and you do believe he will be a hall of famer one day. More power to anyone that feels that way.

What does Lloyd have to do with Hillis?

Northman
10-10-2010, 08:35 PM
No matter how great you guys feel Hillis is, he is not Chris Johnson, he may have averaged 3.0-3.5 yards per carry at best, better than what we have, but not enough to change the dynamic of this team.

No one is going to be Chris Johnson. He doesnt have any clones or twins. But yes, Hillis can move piles of players by himself and WOULD of been a difference maker here. It doesnt take a rocket scientist to watch game film of the guy and see what he does AFTER contact. And that therein lies the difference between Hillis and our guys. Not speculation, just fact.

ogplife
10-10-2010, 08:36 PM
What does Lloyd have to do with Hillis?

Read the original post for this thread, we are not the only team in this league to give up on an "all world talent". It happens.

Dreadnought
10-10-2010, 08:39 PM
If we gave back Hillis and sent back Lloyd, what would our record be? Every team, emphasis on every team has these situations. Did fans connect with these guys (particularly Hillis) in some sort of special way that I don't understand. Once again thse guys are role players. Not saying they could not help our team, but they will not make or break our team. No matter how great you guys feel Hillis is, he is not Chris Johnson, he may have averaged 3.0-3.5 yards per carry at best, better than what we have, but not enough to change the dynamic of this team. If you really believe he was going to average the same 5 yards per carry he is with a pretty good O line, the same line that took a relative nobody like Jerome Harrison and put him on the map (Yes everything about Cleveland is not bad)then you are delusional and you do believe he will be a hall of famer one day. More power to anyone that feels that way.

That may be so, but Hillis is better than anyone on our roster, to include Knowshon Moreno. I felt that way at the time, and in this case (not all cases by any means, but this one :lol:) I think I have been so far proven right. I hated the Moreno pick, at the time and hate it even more now. i hate all picks of RB's in the First Round, so its not personal. Then McD, new and insecure, was invested in being proved right, so Hillis was kept off the field no matter how important to our team's prospects. I resented that. Remember, Lamont Jordan was ahead of Hillis on the depth chart last year. This was simply inexcusable, and it told me McD would rather fail than be flexible or adjust his own preconceptions.

In short, its really less about Hillis, Scheffler, or any of the rest. Its about Mcdaniels in the end

ogplife
10-10-2010, 08:40 PM
No one is going to be Chris Johnson. He doesnt have any clones or twins. But yes, Hillis can move piles of players by himself and WOULD of been a difference maker here. It doesnt take a rocket scientist to watch game film of the guy and see what he does AFTER contact. And that therein lies the difference between Hillis and our guys. Not speculation, just fact.


I know most power backs can move a pile, but I also know that most power backs need to generate some speed to use that power. If Hillis can move piles after one or two steps (what our line allows in most instances), he is a FHOF.

Tned
10-10-2010, 08:42 PM
Read the original post for this thread, we are not the only team in this league to give up on an "all world talent". It happens.

Hillis is in his 3rd year and became the starter in his third game with his new team (split carries in the first two games). Lloyd is in his 8th year, and was inactive for something like 13 games last season.

That's not a very good comparison. In his rookie season, when Hillis was elevated to starter due to injuries, in a short five game stretch, led the team in rushing, had a 5 YPC average, and had both a 100 yard rushing game, and another with 100 yards receiving.

I love what Lloyd's doing, but breaking out in your 8th year in the league after being inactive virtually the entire previous year isn't exactly the same situation.

Tned
10-10-2010, 08:43 PM
I know most power backs can move a pile, but I also know that most power backs need to generate some speed to use that power. If Hillis can move piles after one or two steps (what our line allows in most instances), he is a FHOF.

You might want to watch some Browns highlights from this year, and Denver highlights from '08, because clearly you haven't seen Hillis run.

P.S. He isn't a power back, he is a very versatile back that happens to also run with power.

jhildebrand
10-10-2010, 08:43 PM
To Mcd's defense, I think he recognized the need for a downhill runner and got White,

Saying he got White because he knew he needed a downhill runner is skewed when you think about it.

First of all, when the Hillis move was made, it was made without a replacement. Then it hinges on knowing White would become available? :confused: Then sign a guy who would have only become eligible with today's game.

It just doesn't work.



but we got unlucky.


Problem is we didn't need luck at all. We had a probable solution to our running woes on the roster last season. Now we are down a 4th roun d pick to boot.

Calling Hillis a role player is simply silly. Even if, I sure would love me a role player who could pick up the tough 1 yard when needed.

ogplife
10-10-2010, 08:43 PM
That may be so, but Hillis is better than anyone on our roster, to include Knowshon Moreno. I felt that way at the time, and in this case (not all cases by any means, but this one :lol:) I think I have been so far proven right. I hated the Moreno pick, at the time and hate it even more now. i hate all picks of RB's in the First Round, so its not personal. Then McD, new and insecure, was invested in being proved right, so Hillis was kept off the field no matter how important to our team's prospects. I resented that. Remember, Lamont Jordan was ahead of Hillis on the depth chart last year. This was simply inexcusable, and it told me McD would rather fail than be flexible or adjust his own preconceptions.

In short, its really less about Hillis, Scheffler, or any of the rest. Its about Mcdaniels in the end

I personally like Mcdaniels, but I have a lot of respect for the answer you gave. Good post.

Northman
10-10-2010, 08:44 PM
I know most power backs can move a pile, but I also know that most power backs need to generate some speed to use that power. If Hillis can move piles after one or two steps (what our line allows in most instances), he is a FHOF.

Could be, at least he is getting a chance to prove himself in Cleveland. Nothing we can do about it now but sucks that we never gave him a serious chance. As too the one or two steps that is highly inaccurate. I saw the game in person and even on the sweeps our backs get no push whatsover on the defenders. I know our Oline has "some" issues but people trying to use that as a crutch just arent being realistic. There's a reason most of the guys on our RB roster are castoffs or were not wanted anymore.

KCL
10-10-2010, 08:45 PM
Read the original post for this thread, we are not the only team in this league to give up on an "all world talent". It happens.

So it's not okay for fans to be talking about ex-players and be disappointed that they were traded away? :confused:

KCL
10-10-2010, 08:46 PM
That may be so, but Hillis is better than anyone on our roster, to include Knowshon Moreno. I felt that way at the time, and in this case (not all cases by any means, but this one :lol:) I think I have been so far proven right. I hated the Moreno pick, at the time and hate it even more now. i hate all picks of RB's in the First Round, so its not personal. Then McD, new and insecure, was invested in being proved right, so Hillis was kept off the field no matter how important to our team's prospects. I resented that. Remember, Lamont Jordan was ahead of Hillis on the depth chart last year. This was simply inexcusable, and it told me McD would rather fail than be flexible or adjust his own preconceptions.

In short, its really less about Hillis, Scheffler, or any of the rest. Its about Mcdaniels in the end

Ya know as a rival fan...it was a dumb trade to send Hillis away...can't say I'm upset by it though...;)

ogplife
10-10-2010, 08:49 PM
You might want to watch some Browns highlights from this year, and Denver highlights from '08, because clearly you haven't seen Hillis run.

P.S. He isn't a power back, he is a very versatile back that happens to also run with power.

I have watched more than enough football. History says your line usually gets you the first 3-4 yards and the backs get you the rest. When there is good blocking, Peyton Hillis pushes forward for 3-4 more yards (for a total gain of 8,yes I actually like him too), Chris Johnson turns it into a 80 yard touchdown and our backs finish with a 3-4 yard run (no Im not a fan of our backs). So yes I have a lot of respect for Hillis, but no I don't think he is this unstoppable force that people are making him out to be and I just don't don't see him tearing up the league the way our line has blocked so far this season.

KCL
10-10-2010, 08:52 PM
I have watched more than enough football. History says your line usually gets you the first 3-4 yards and the backs get you the rest. When there is good blocking, Peyton Hillis pushes forward for 3-4 more yards (for a total gain of 8,yes I actually like him too), Chris Johnson turns it into a 80 yard touchdown and our backs finish with a 3-4 yard run (no Im not a fan of our backs). So yes I have a lot of respect for Hillis, but no I don't think he is this unstoppable force that people are making him out to be and I just don't don't see him tearing up the league the way our line has blocked so far this season.

One never knows...look what Charles did last season in 8 games.

Northman
10-10-2010, 08:55 PM
I have watched more than enough football. History says your line usually gets you the first 3-4 yards and the backs get you the rest. When there is good blocking, Peyton Hillis pushes forward for 3-4 more yards (for a total gain of 8,yes I actually like him too), Chris Johnson turns it into a 80 yard touchdown and our backs finish with a 3-4 yard run (no Im not a fan of our backs). So yes I have a lot of respect for Hillis, but no I don't think he is this unstoppable force that people are making him out to be and I just don't don't see him tearing up the league the way our line has blocked so far this season.

:lol:

Dont get me wrong. I dont think Hillis is an unstoppable force (unless he has the 98' Bronco line) but you cant tell me he couldnt get a TD from 1 yd out. Thats just silly and thats the main reason people bring him up. We need a downhill runner that can move the pile when there really isnt anything there. Today, i can tell you that a good portion of the runs Rice made were by his own doing. We were clogging the holes most of the time and yet his vision allowed him to find another hole to pop through. We need a back that can move a defender if need be.

Dreadnought
10-10-2010, 08:57 PM
I have watched more than enough football. History says your line usually gets you the first 3-4 yards and the backs get you the rest. When there is good blocking, Peyton Hillis pushes forward for 3-4 more yards (for a total gain of 8,yes I actually like him too), Chris Johnson turns it into a 80 yard touchdown and our backs finish with a 3-4 yard run (no Im not a fan of our backs). So yes I have a lot of respect for Hillis, but no I don't think he is this unstoppable force that people are making him out to be and I just don't don't see him tearing up the league the way our line has blocked so far this season.

One Correction. Maroney goes indecisive, misidentifies the hole or watches it close through his dawdling, then goes down on first contact with any defensive player of 125+ lbs or more. Now its 2nd and ten and time to pass.

ogplife
10-10-2010, 09:02 PM
:lol:

Dont get me wrong. I dont think Hillis is an unstoppable force (unless he has the 98' Bronco line) but you cant tell me he couldnt get a TD from 1 yd out. Thats just silly and thats the main reason people bring him up. We need a downhill runner that can move the pile when there really isnt anything there. Today, i can tell you that a good portion of the runs Rice made were by his own doing. We were clogging the holes most of the time and yet his vision allowed him to find another hole to pop through. We need a back that can move a defender if need be.\

If the argument was Hillis is the short runner that we needed I could completely accept that, but you know and I know that is not the way these threads go on the forum. Almost every thread has a Hillis reference these days. Even on a day like today when he had a nice touchdown catch, but his team lost and he had 10 carries for 28 yards, people still reference him in a couple threads. It's ridiculous. Like I said this thread was not about Marshall and Cutler, but I can understand people being attached to them and not letting them go, but I personally don't get the obsession with the others.

jhildebrand
10-10-2010, 09:05 PM
Most are vocal about the fact that Hillis would be the best RB on this team. PERIOD.

Seeing how he thrashed the SAME RAVENS D three weeks ago, I think it is clear he could help here.

Yes his team is losing. His team also is playing with their #2 QB and have 1/4 the offensive weapons we do. Not to mention the opposing D knows Hillis will be getting the ball and he still produces. The opposing team knows when Maroney will get the ball and it is lucky if it isn't a negative play.

Watchthemiddle
10-10-2010, 09:09 PM
Speaking of Hillis....

McDaniels is and has not been the first coach to think he is not an every down back.

Even under Shanahan, Hillis only played once we had 4 other RB's on the IR. The same thing is happening in Cleveland. It will be interesting to see if he will remain as the starter once Harrison comes back.

ogplife
10-10-2010, 09:13 PM
Most are vocal about the fact that Hillis would be the best RB on this team. PERIOD.

Seeing how he thrashed the SAME RAVENS D three weeks ago, I think it is clear he could help here.

Yes his team is losing. His team also is playing with their #2 QB and have 1/4 the offensive weapons we do. Not to mention the opposing D knows Hillis will be getting the ball and he still produces. The opposing team knows when Maroney will get the ball and it is lucky if it isn't a negative play.

I agree that he would be our best back, but best with our offense would likely not equal highly productive. Also who was their quarterback and weapons last year when Jerome Harrison went nuts at the end of last year? They have a pretty good line, they are not horrible at every facet of the game. Asd a matter of fact, I won't even give them that much credit because I don't know much about their pass blocking. They run block well.

Dreadnought
10-10-2010, 09:22 PM
I agree that he would be our best back, but best with our offense would likely not equal highly productive. Also who was their quarterback and weapons last year when Jerome Harrison went nuts at the end of last year? They have a pretty good line, they are not horrible at every facet of the game. Asd a matter of fact, I won't even give them that much credit because I don't know much about their pass blocking. They run block well.

Very well. Steinbach and Thomas are as good a left side run blocking tandem as there is IMO. The Right side is dodgier. I do believe however that the threat posed by Seneca Wallace/Jake Delhomme is so minimal that it balances things out though. 8 in the box is no problem versus the Browns

In this league the O-Line that remains healthy and together all year long is a rarety. When you get it be thankful and light a candle or something - because it can lead to stuff like the 98 team. That simply won't fly as an excuse for all that long; teams work with cobbled together lines all the time. In our case we have a few guys in hand that are proven first rate O-linemen (Clady, Harris), or at least (Kuper) workmanlike professionals. If its just that these guys can't work in the new scheme then its the scheme's fault.

In the case of Laurence Maroney there is no such thing as a scheme this chump can succeed in. Jury is out still on Moreno, but I'm not hopeful

Tned
10-10-2010, 10:47 PM
Speaking of Hillis....

McDaniels is and has not been the first coach to think he is not an every down back.

Even under Shanahan, Hillis only played once we had 4 other RB's on the IR. The same thing is happening in Cleveland. It will be interesting to see if he will remain as the starter once Harrison comes back.

You might want to fact check your post. Based on the Cleveland press, he has been in the mix for carries all along.

Tned
10-11-2010, 12:20 AM
I have watched more than enough football. History says your line usually gets you the first 3-4 yards and the backs get you the rest. When there is good blocking, Peyton Hillis pushes forward for 3-4 more yards (for a total gain of 8,yes I actually like him too), Chris Johnson turns it into a 80 yard touchdown and our backs finish with a 3-4 yard run (no Im not a fan of our backs). So yes I have a lot of respect for Hillis, but no I don't think he is this unstoppable force that people are making him out to be and I just don't don't see him tearing up the league the way our line has blocked so far this season.

I'll take that as "no, I haven't watched much of Hillis".

Here's an example of what he brings to the field, besides just pounding it on short yardage downs. This was part of his leading the browns in receiving today and getting their only TD:

xeMvlvBLTko

ogplife
10-11-2010, 04:32 AM
I'll take that as "no, I haven't watched much of Hillis".

Here's an example of what he brings to the field, besides just pounding it on short yardage downs. This was part of his leading the browns in receiving today and getting their only TD:

xeMvlvBLTko

That was a nice catch and a well designed play, but Peyton Hillis would not add anything to our passing game. He is an average receiver. He can catch the ball out of the backfield, nothing that moreno can't do. He is not Reggie Bush. You can't split him wide and ask him to run 20 yard posts. He had 4 catches for 49 yards (third on the team today) and 6 targets. It shows that screen passes are a big part of their game or their quarterback checks down often (probably the latter). By the way he had 10 carries for 28 yards and they lost too, don't leave that out when you discuss his game today. I watched that highlight and I watched more than enough Hillis in his Bronco days, but yes from this point forward, you will have much greater knowledge of his skill set than me because I am not tuning in to a Cleveland Browns game to see a clinic on running, unless they are playing the Vikings or Titans.

broncophan
10-11-2010, 05:54 AM
Hillis has gone to Cleveland and now Harrison sits the bench....who.... the last 3 or 4 weeks of the season last year....was about the best running back in the league.....don't laugh....at the end of the season he had huge numbers......obviouslyI think the broncos could use the contribution Hillis is making for the browns......it was def. a mistake....not bashing Mcd....not his first mistake and it won't be his last.....role player or not.

and I for one will not pat Brady Quinn ......Tebow or whoever on the back for "pushing" Orton....I guess Orton would have done better last season if Brandstater had "pushed" him more....

Tned
10-11-2010, 07:24 AM
That was a nice catch and a well designed play, but Peyton Hillis would not add anything to our passing game. He is an average receiver. He can catch the ball out of the backfield, nothing that moreno can't do. He is not Reggie Bush. You can't split him wide and ask him to run 20 yard posts. He had 4 catches for 49 yards (third on the team today) and 6 targets. It shows that screen passes are a big part of their game or their quarterback checks down often (probably the latter). By the way he had 10 carries for 28 yards and they lost too, don't leave that out when you discuss his game today. I watched that highlight and I watched more than enough Hillis in his Bronco days, but yes from this point forward, you will have much greater knowledge of his skill set than me because I am not tuning in to a Cleveland Browns game to see a clinic on running, unless they are playing the Vikings or Titans.

A clinic in running? :confused: Jerome Harrison only managed 6 yards on 6 carries yesterday.

Denver Native (Carol)
10-11-2010, 09:39 AM
http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_16293631

The subtext to all of this is that Mike Shanahan and current Browns coach Eric Mangini didn't see Hillis as a team's primary runner either and didn't insert him into that role until injuries forced each of them to do it. So, McDaniels does have some company on that evaluation of Hillis purely as a player.

broncophan
10-11-2010, 09:41 AM
Yes...there were injuries....but he also earned his playing time as well....at least....the couple of preseason games I saw of the browns.....Hillis played very well.

Denver Native (Carol)
10-11-2010, 09:46 AM
http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_16271910

Today's question about the Broncos comes from Bob J. in Hershey, Pa. Send your question via e-mail to jlegwold@denverpost.com.

Q: A lot has been written about (Peyton) Hillis not getting a chance to show Broncos coach Josh McDaniels what he can do, but I have not seen anything written about why, or even a speculation. As a student of Bill Belichick's, one would think that a hard-nosed, no-nonsense, tough guy like Hillis would be exactly what McD wants on a team. So why, then, did he run him out of town so quickly?

A: Bob, as Hillis continues to pile up the yardage for the Browns and the Broncos continue to struggle in the run game, this is easily one of the hottest topics of discussion.

Hillis has outrushed the Broncos 322-220 and is tied for eighth in the NFL in rushing, ahead of the likes of Steven Jackson and Michael Turner.

But Hillis didn't fit what McDaniels wants in a running back in what largely is a single-back offense much of the time. That's it.

The rest is just confetti in the wind at this point. Teams make personnel decisions, and they liked their other running backs more than Hillis.

And the bottom line is if Hillis were playing in this offense right now, he would not have anything close to 322 yards rushing. The Broncos have not cleared the line of scrimmage enough between the tackles, which is where Hillis is going to do most of his work, for any running back to make much of it right now.

When an NFL team is averaging just 2.2 yards per carry, it has issues that go beyond the guy with the ball.

McDaniels isn't alone in not making Hillis the starter. Mike Shanahan saw Hillis every day as well and didn't make him the primary runner in the injury-ravaged 2008 season until everybody on the depth chart in front of him was hurt.

Where Shanahan thought Hillis could do the most damage was in the passing game. Shanahan loved Hillis' skills catching the ball, how he ran routes and how he turned upfield with little wasted motion after he made a catch.

Shanahan didn't think of Hillis as a 25 carry-per-game guy. Shanahan saw Hillis as a quality situational player.

Hillis was not going to be the primary back in Cleveland, either. He did lead the Browns in rushing in the preseason, but he was still expected to split time in what was going to be a rotation with James Harrison and James Davis.

But once again, injuries forced Hillis into a more prominent role. And again, the fans in the stands liked Hillis more than the guys coaching him.

Hillis has made the most of his circumstances with two 100-yard games this season, including one against the Ravens.

Folks seem most frustrated McDaniels simply wouldn't use Hillis in any role as the 2009 season wore on and the Broncos' flaws on offense became apparent. And Hillis is said to have not always done much during practice to change that, but that's common if a guy truly believes he just isn't going to play no matter what he does.

So, at this point it's mostly he-said, he-said stuff, but both McDaniels and Hillis probably could have handled things differently.

For his part, Hillis is happy playing with the Browns, having spent his college career at Arkansas trying to get carries in a backfield that includes Darren McFadden and Felix Jones.

Lonestar
10-11-2010, 10:03 AM
Making a hell of a catch. Ball was overthrown, and he reaches out and flicks it towards himself, catches it with his finger tips around waist high, gets a solid grip, without really breaking stried and runs in for the score (~18 yards total).

He wasn't made the full time starter until week 3, and he still has 20 receptions on the year, on pace for 65 or so, along with being on pace for 1,100 yards and 16 TDs.

Not too bad for a "short yardage" fullback.

Did they trade for him to be the starter?

We all know they did not. They got him to be a situational player.

Just so happens for what ever reason he made the most out of it. Since I do not follow cle at all I do not know the other players I do not know if he was just in the right spot at the right time with injuries to others.

Let me throw this out as a maybe.

Coming off surgery to a hamstring tendon that was torn complety from the bone. Was he complety healed last year? Was he tentative or not playing at this years level and there fore in practice did not get the reps? Yet this year with another team is confident and in a good situation.

Again I have always loved Hillis as a player.

But I would have made the same trade everyday of the week. A #7 situational player at the time for a #1 potential FQB plus a switch in draft position (iirc)
At the time Orton was not playing at the level he is today nor did we have tebow on the team nor IMO have a dream of drafting him.

Let me repeat I'd make that trade again with the above mentioned criteria.

No one thought. Let me repeat the NO ONE remotely guessed that Orton would be as profilic as he has been this year in his second season. Now he is performing for his next contract. Hooray for him. You can bet Hillis is also.

BTW IIRC he was held to less than 3 YPC last night.
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Lonestar
10-11-2010, 10:14 AM
I have wondered what was the point of bringing Quinn to Denver? I may not know what I'm talking about but that seems like a waste of a roster spot.What else did Denver get in the trade? Seems like Denver in years past always had a few good backs on the team at any given time? Has Quinn even had much playing time?

Initialy Quinn was the guy Josh really wanted but CLE would not give the same value that Chi did.

So when he had the cahnce to pick him up for a guy that was not working out in town, knowing that Ortons contract was up this year and while he was coming into his second year in the scheme NO ONE could have guessed he would be this good. Plus his. Past ankle issues to Josh this was a no brainer.

Does anyone think that had he known just how good he was going to be that he would not have been signed to a 6 year contract instead of one year.
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D1g1tal j1m
10-11-2010, 10:35 AM
Great white hopes...

Lonestar
10-11-2010, 10:43 AM
Hillis has gone to Cleveland and now Harrison sits the bench....who.... the last 3 or 4 weeks of the season last year....was about the best running back in the league.....don't laugh....at the end of the season he had huge numbers......obviouslyI think the broncos could use the contribution Hillis is making for the browns......it was def. a mistake....not bashing Mcd....not his first mistake and it won't be his last.....role player or not.

and I for one will not pat Brady Quinn ......Tebow or whoever on the back for "pushing" Orton....I guess Orton would have done better last season if Brandstater had "pushed" him more....

Did having Quinn and Tebow behind him turn him into all world QB this year. Highly unlikely.

I think it is because this year he has an almost complete mastery of the scheme, his ankles are healed and the wrs on the team also know what they are supposed run ROUTE wise and do it.

Did having someone incentivize him sure but not tp the degree the other reasons did.
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dogfish
10-11-2010, 11:23 AM
http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/8366/hilliscantread.jpg (http://img339.imageshack.us/i/hilliscantread.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

jhildebrand
10-11-2010, 11:25 AM
Speaking of Hillis....

McDaniels is and has not been the first coach to think he is not an every down back.

Even under Shanahan, Hillis only played once we had 4 other RB's on the IR. The same thing is happening in Cleveland. It will be interesting to see if he will remain as the starter once Harrison comes back.

This post has been debunked several times for its inaccuracies. Maybe if you watched the Broncos in 08 you would know better.

The fact is Shanahan from day 1 in TC said Hillis possibly had the best hands on the team and said he would be a big contributor.

Second, Hillis played in game 1 against the Raiders. So much for your idea that it wasn't until "4 other RB's on IR" idea.

Third, Hillis, in one of the most complicated offenses known to the NFL, learned not just the FB position but the RB position. I guess that debunks the stupid theory.

Finally, Hillis will keep his carries. He has shown to be hard to tackle even though everybody knows he is getting the ball and everybody knows the Browns can't do anything otherwise.

Holmgren runs a system similar to Shanahan. Mangini wont be there at the conclusion of this season. Holmgren most assuredly recognizes the value of Hillis and he will be there for a long time to come!!!!!

Gimpygod
10-11-2010, 11:31 AM
I liked Hillis, but I really don't feel the lack of our running game has anything to do with the runners - I believe it is the OL. Therefore, even if Hillis were still here, he may have the same problems our other runners are having now. We will never know.

the O-line is McD's doing also.

Gimpygod
10-11-2010, 11:34 AM
One player does not make a team - as good as Hillis is doing, the Browns are 1 - 4.

one of many mcd ousted Carol, you believe we need some players yes?

Gimpygod
10-11-2010, 11:41 AM
That may be so, but Hillis is better than anyone on our roster, to include Knowshon Moreno. I felt that way at the time, and in this case (not all cases by any means, but this one :lol:) I think I have been so far proven right. I hated the Moreno pick, at the time and hate it even more now. i hate all picks of RB's in the First Round, so its not personal. Then McD, new and insecure, was invested in being proved right, so Hillis was kept off the field no matter how important to our team's prospects. I resented that. Remember, Lamont Jordan was ahead of Hillis on the depth chart last year. This was simply inexcusable, and it told me McD would rather fail than be flexible or adjust his own preconceptions.

In short, its really less about Hillis, Scheffler, or any of the rest. Its about Mcdaniels in the end

preach it brother Dred!

Oldschoolcrush
10-11-2010, 11:53 AM
I see a lot of talk that our problems running are directly related to the OL, does the success of the run fall solely upon the shoulders of the line? I really don't think so.
You could use the excuse of where is the TE utilized? If you have a solid over the middle threat that needs to be addressed.... Well, this loosens up the defense stacked at the line.
This is the reality: you can't have "perfect" receivers, you can't have a "perfect" TE, you can't have a "perfect" line and you can't have "perfect" backs.... All at the same time! You need to decide where you want to attack and where you want to solidify talent.
You need to decide what you are creating on offense....
If you have a prolific quarterback, you first need targets for that quarterback. You need a talented TE that can be a deep threat as well as a solid over the middle receiver. You need an OL able to provide enough time to reach those targets. You need a power back that can play into the 3 yd (meager) per carry average consistently. Last, you can use a speed back as that role player...
You can set up the run with this offense by setting the defense back on their heals... This offense lengthens the field of play and exploits the middle of the field as the core, late in the game it opens the run to pound a tired defense.... Hint, in a close game you can't afford the QB to hurt you deep.... The defense remains on their heals.

If you have a prolific back: you first need an OL that is talented enough to provide different degrees of athleticism in creating blocking scenarios. You need a FB clean up to deal with holes in the blocking. You can afford a vanilla TE who can block and act as a dump receiver. You need a quarterback that is calculated... I'm not going to say vanilla, you never want that in a QB... But certainly not prolific. Last, you need targets for that QB.... Just the opposite, the running game sets up the pass... This offense shortens the field of play, opening the deep attack and the middle through play action pass.... Hint, in a close game, you can't afford a calculated use of the clock... The defense has to attack and shut it down.

You need to decide what scenario you're building and who you're building it around....
What kind of offense is McD building? So far I can't tell.... I see glimmers, but the lack of anything to back up these glimmers of hope show me nothing but vanilla.

Orton, is he prolific or calculated? I think he has defined himself as both. Fan-*******-tastic! What keeps defenses from opening up the line to the run? Well number one on the list above, the TE..... Defenses can stack the line because as shown above, the core, the middle is not being exploited enough. We're using talent at WR to do so and shortening the field of play that should otherwise be lengthened. Number two, the OL is giving OK enough protection and would continue doing so in a balanced scenario.... Number three, the power back smash mouth beast to back it up.... HMMMMM!

Orton has targets no doubt, but it is not balanced!

I'm not attaching anything to the player itself, that being Hillis... I'm looking at the balance of an offense and can't help but say that he would work nicely in what is going on, even though I can't honestly say what that is.
There seems to be a definite lack of focus on a team that has talent.
As of yet, the broncos have not been beaten; they have fallen upon their own lack of focus and left their talent standing with their dicks in their hands....
It happened all of last season.... I'm not expecting an offense to score TD's every red zone visit; but the percentages of FG's versus TD's was ridiculous..... Increase that percentage by a mere 20%, and they would have won most of their games.... This is where a prolific TE and a power back would increase success.
So much trading for ? and I haven't seen anything to support or develop the existing or acquired talent.

Lonestar
10-11-2010, 11:56 AM
This post has been debunked several times for its inaccuracies. Maybe if you watched the Broncos in 08 you would know better.

The fact is Shanahan from day 1 in TC said Hillis possibly had the best hands on the team and said he would be a big contributor.

Second, Hillis played in game 1 against the Raiders. So much for your idea that it wasn't until "4 other RB's on IR" idea.

Third, Hillis, in one of the most complicated offenses known to the NFL, learned not just the FB position but the RB position. I guess that debunks the stupid theory.

Finally, Hillis will keep his carries. He has shown to be hard to tackle even though everybody knows he is getting the ball and everybody knows the Browns can't do anything otherwise.

Holmgren runs a system similar to Shanahan. Mangini wont be there at the conclusion of this season. Holmgren most assuredly recognizes the value of Hillis and he will be there for a long time to come!!!!!


but he was not playing as a RB but as a blocking FB, then got demoted because he sucked at it and a LB was promoted to be that Blocking FB.
So lets not go there and act like he was THE RB in that game.


Denver Broncos (1-0-0)
Passing CP/AT YDS TD INT
J. Cutler 16/24 300 2 0
E. Royal 0/1 0 0 0
Rushing ATT YDS TD LG
A. Hall 10 61 0 16
S. Young 7 36 1 9
P. Hillis 3 14 0 5
M. Pittman 7 12 2 5
J. Cutler 5 9 0 11
E. Royal 2 9 0 7


Preseason Games Rushing Receiving Fumbles
WK Game Date Opp Result G GS Att Yds Avg Lng TD Rec Yds Avg Lng TD FUM Lost
1 08/09 @ HOU L 16-19 0 0 -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
2 08/16 DAL W 23-13 1 0 -- -- -- -- -- 1 0 0.0 0 0 -- --
3 08/22 GB L 24-27 1 0 1 1 1.0 1 0 1 14 14.0 14 0 -- --
4 08/29 @ ARI W 28-14 1 1 -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
TOTAL 3 1 -- 1 0.0 1 0 2 14 7.0 14 0 0 0

Regular Season Games Rushing Receiving Fumbles
WK Game Date Opp Result G GS Att Yds Avg Lng TD Rec Yds Avg Lng TD FUM Lost
1 09/08 @ OAK W 41-14 1 0 3 14 4.7 5 0 1 4 4.0 4 0 -- --
2 09/14 SD W 39-38 1 0 -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
3 09/21 NO W 34-32 1 1 -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
4 09/28 @ KC L 19-33 1 0 -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
5 10/05 TB W 16-13 0 0 -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
6 10/12 JAC L 17-24 1 0 -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
7 10/20 @ NE L 7-41 1 0 -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
8 Bye -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
9 11/02 MIA L 17-26 1 1 -- -- -- -- -- 7 116 16.6 47 1 -- --
10 11/06 @ CLE W 34-30 1 0 8 24 3.0 10 0 0 0 -- -- 0 -- --
11 11/16 @ ATL W 24-20 1 1 10 44 4.4 12 2 3 26 8.7 14 0 -- --
12 11/23 OAK L 10-31 1 1 17 74 4.4 13 1 2 22 11.0 16 0 -- --
13 11/30 @ NYJ W 34-17 1 1 22 129 5.9 19 1 0 0 -- -- 0 -- --
14 12/07 KC W 24-17 1 1 8 58 7.3 18T 1 1 11 11.0 11 0 -- --
TOTAL 12 6 -- 343 0.0 19 5 14 179 12.8 47 1 0 0


you will note that he did not carry the ball again until game 10 after every one was on IR. so lets put the that in the correct context.



You also have to remember we were playing the faiders that game.

Would I like to have Hillis on the team? yep

as for him being able to keep up with out ever changing Playbook week to week. Well that is only known to Hillis and Josh.

Tned
10-11-2010, 12:08 PM
http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_16293631

The subtext to all of this is that Mike Shanahan and current Browns coach Eric Mangini didn't see Hillis as a team's primary runner either and didn't insert him into that role until injuries forced each of them to do it. So, McDaniels does have some company on that evaluation of Hillis purely as a player.


Did they trade for him to be the starter?

We all know they did not. They got him to be a situational player.

Just so happens for what ever reason he made the most out of it. Since I do not follow cle at all I do not know the other players I do not know if he was just in the right spot at the right time with injuries to others.

Let me throw this out as a maybe.


I know it's en vogue to defend McDaniels (which I think is ridiculous, as the head coach doesn't need people defending him) to say, "see, Mangini wouldn't have used him but for injuries, just like Shanahan and McDaniels". Unfortunatley, the facts don't support it.

Here's an offseason report from the Cleveland Plain Dealer:


During OTAs last week, Hillis made some nice catches out of the backfield and lined up at multiple positions, showing the versatility that Mangini loves. He'll compete for playing time with Jerome Harrison, rookie Montario Hardesty, Lawrence Vickers, James Davis and Chris Jennings.

"He catches the ball well, he's 245 pounds and he's a really physical runner," Mangini said shortly after Hillis arrived. "He's tough with the football in his hands, and he can play tailback and fullback. You can mix him in a lot of different places. He's also played on special teams."

Hillis will do anything but would prefer to carry the ball. As a high school senior, he rushed for 2,631 yards and 29 touchdowns, and was heavily recruited. At Arkansas, he was off to a promising start at tailback until future first-round picks Darren McFadden and Felix Jones took over.

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2010/05/cleveland_browns_running_back_3.html


Here's a cronology of Rotoworld entries on Hillis (start from the bottom up). What you will see is that he was given a chance to earn carries, and clearly was doing exactly that:


Peyton Hillis-RB- Browns Aug. 31 - 12:16 pm et

Peyton Hillis has been given quite a bit of time with the first-team offense lately.

It doesn't necessarily mean he's going to challenge for a lot of first-team reps during the season, but Hillis did see significant action in the red zone Saturday. Hillis' value is in his versatility, and we would expect to see him to get a few carries, including some red zone touches, as well as plenty of time as the third-down back.
Source: Canton Repository


Peyton Hillis-RB- Browns Aug. 23 - 9:27 am et

Coach Eric Mangini said that Peyton Hillis will be used as a receiver out of the backfield, fullback, special-teamer and third-down back.

Hillis' versatility and toughness is an asset. He'll help out the Browns a lot more than he'll help fantasy teams with Jerome Harrison and Montario Hardesty hogging the majority of carries.
Source: Cleveland Plain Dealer


Peyton Hillis-RB- Browns Aug. 2 - 8:43 am et

With Montario Hardesty (knee) sidelined, Peyton Hillis is running with the second team.

Hillis appears to be ahead of James Davis and Chris Jennings for now. The bruising power back is getting a chance to flash his versatility by putting those surprisingly soft hands on display. Still, if both Hardesty and Jerome Harrison are healthy, there will only be table scraps left.
Source: Cleveland Plain Dealer
Related: James Davis, Chris Jennings


Peyton Hillis-RB- Browns Jun. 13 - 9:22 am et

Browns RB/FB Peyton Hillis lost seven or eight pounds during the last two weeks while he was sick.

Hillis finally made it to Cleveland on Saturday after missing the entire minicamp and final two OTA sessions. He's going to hang around the team facility for a couple weeks to make sure he's OK with the playbook. Hillis shouldn't have a problem putting the weight back on for training camp.
Source: Cleveland Plain Dealer


Peyton Hillis-RB- Browns Jun. 9 - 9:07 am et

Browns RB/FB Peyton Hillis has missed the last two weeks of OTAs because he's been sick.

Jerome Harrison hasn't been in camp for much of the offseason workouts either, opening up tons of reps for rookie Montario Hardesty. Hillis will fight for snaps as a short-yardage option.
Source: Cleveland Plain Dealer


Peyton Hillis-RB- Browns May. 31 - 8:01 pm et

Browns RB/FB Peyton Hillis worked at multiple positions during the team's recent round of OTAs.

Coach Eric Mangini praised Hillis' versatility, but it doesn't sound like he's necessarily going to get the football much this season. "He catches the ball well, he's 245 pounds and he's a really physical runner," Mangini said. "He's tough with the football in his hands, and he can play tailback and fullback. ... He's also played on special teams."
Source: Cleveland Plain Dealer


Peyton Hillis-RB- Browns Apr. 17 - 7:16 pm et

Although Browns GM Tom Heckert indicated that Peyton Hillis "will help" as a runner, president Mike Holmgren acknowledged that he has to add to his backfield this offseason.

Hillis is likely ticketed for a short-yardage role in the vein of LenDale White. The Browns may have too many other needs to jump on C.J. Spiller at No. 7 overall, but Holmgren will likely target a running back in the middle rounds next week.
Source: Canton Repository
Related: Jerome Harrison


Peyton Hillis-RB- Browns Mar. 18 - 10:29 am et

According to the Cleveland Plain Dealer's Terry Pluto, the Browns "really like" RB/FB Peyton Hillis.

Hillis displayed a Mike Alstott type of skill-set as a rookie, which will fit in well with Eric Mangini's run-heavy approach in 2010. Hillis will be used as a physical complement to Jerome Harrison, and the Browns will likely add another back in the draft. Josh Cribbs and Seneca Wallace will also see plenty of Wildcat action.

Northman
10-11-2010, 12:11 PM
That was a nice catch and a well designed play, but Peyton Hillis would not add anything to our passing game. He is an average receiver. He can catch the ball out of the backfield, nothing that moreno can't do. He is not Reggie Bush. You can't split him wide and ask him to run 20 yard posts. He had 4 catches for 49 yards (third on the team today) and 6 targets. It shows that screen passes are a big part of their game or their quarterback checks down often (probably the latter). By the way he had 10 carries for 28 yards and they lost too, don't leave that out when you discuss his game today. I watched that highlight and I watched more than enough Hillis in his Bronco days, but yes from this point forward, you will have much greater knowledge of his skill set than me because I am not tuning in to a Cleveland Browns game to see a clinic on running, unless they are playing the Vikings or Titans.


He can stay healthy.

Lonestar
10-11-2010, 12:45 PM
Peyton Hillis-RB- Browns Aug. 31 - 12:16 pm et

Peyton Hillis has been given quite a bit of time with the first-team offense lately.

It doesn't necessarily mean he's going to challenge for a lot of first-team reps during the season, but Hillis did see significant action in the red zone Saturday. Hillis' value is in his versatility, and we would expect to see him to get a few carries, including some red zone touches, as well as plenty of time as the third-down back.
Source: Canton Repository


Peyton Hillis-RB- Browns Aug. 23 - 9:27 am et

Coach Eric Mangini said that Peyton Hillis will be used as a receiver out of the backfield, fullback, special-teamer and third-down back.

Hillis' versatility and toughness is an asset. He'll help out the Browns a lot more than he'll help fantasy teams with Jerome Harrison and Montario Hardesty hogging the majority of carries.
Source: Cleveland Plain Dealer


Peyton Hillis-RB- Browns Aug. 2 - 8:43 am et

With Montario Hardesty (knee) sidelined, Peyton Hillis is running with the second team.

Hillis appears to be ahead of James Davis and Chris Jennings for now. The bruising power back is getting a chance to flash his versatility by putting those surprisingly soft hands on display. Still, if both Hardesty and Jerome Harrison are healthy, there will only be table scraps left.
Source: Cleveland Plain Dealer
Related: James Davis, Chris Jennings


Peyton Hillis-RB- Browns Jun. 13 - 9:22 am et

Browns RB/FB Peyton Hillis lost seven or eight pounds during the last two weeks while he was sick.

Hillis finally made it to Cleveland on Saturday after missing the entire minicamp and final two OTA sessions. He's going to hang around the team facility for a couple weeks to make sure he's OK with the playbook. Hillis shouldn't have a problem putting the weight back on for training camp.
Source: Cleveland Plain Dealer


Peyton Hillis-RB- Browns Jun. 9 - 9:07 am et

Browns RB/FB Peyton Hillis has missed the last two weeks of OTAs because he's been sick.

Jerome Harrison hasn't been in camp for much of the offseason workouts either, opening up tons of reps for rookie Montario Hardesty. Hillis will fight for snaps as a short-yardage option.
Source: Cleveland Plain Dealer


Peyton Hillis-RB- Browns May. 31 - 8:01 pm et

Browns RB/FB Peyton Hillis worked at multiple positions during the team's recent round of OTAs.

Coach Eric Mangini praised Hillis' versatility, but it doesn't sound like he's necessarily going to get the football much this season. "He catches the ball well, he's 245 pounds and he's a really physical runner," Mangini said. "He's tough with the football in his hands, and he can play tailback and fullback. ... He's also played on special teams."
Source: Cleveland Plain Dealer


Peyton Hillis-RB- Browns Apr. 17 - 7:16 pm et

Although Browns GM Tom Heckert indicated that Peyton Hillis "will help" as a runner, president Mike Holmgren acknowledged that he has to add to his backfield this offseason.

Hillis is likely ticketed for a short-yardage role in the vein of LenDale White. The Browns may have too many other needs to jump on C.J. Spiller at No. 7 overall, but Holmgren will likely target a running back in the middle rounds next week.
Source: Canton Repository
Related: Jerome Harrison


Peyton Hillis-RB- Browns Mar. 18 - 10:29 am et

According to the Cleveland Plain Dealer's Terry Pluto, the Browns "really like" RB/FB Peyton Hillis.

Hillis displayed a Mike Alstott type of skill-set as a rookie, which will fit in well with Eric Mangini's run-heavy approach in 2010. Hillis will be used as a physical complement to Jerome Harrison, and the Browns will likely add another back in the draft. Josh Cribbs and Seneca Wallace will also see plenty of Wildcat action.

nothing in that refuted waht I said.


Originally Posted by Jrwiz View Post
Did they trade for him to be the starter?

We all know they did not. They got him to be a situational player.

Just so happens for what ever reason he made the most out of it. Since I do not follow cle at all I do not know the other players I do not know if he was just in the right spot at the right time with injuries to others.

Let me throw this out as a maybe.

Remember that Hillis was my adoptee before anyone else had him or even thought about him as a stud.

But once again we all KNOW in our hearts he was not traded for to be the starter. HE just took advantage of a good situation.


Preseason Games Rushing Receiving Fumbles
WK Game Date Opp Result G GS Att Yds Avg Lng TD Rec Yds Avg Lng TD FUM Lost
1 08/14 @ GB W 27-24 1 0 2 3 1.5 2 0 3 34 11.3 26 0 -- --
2 08/21 STL L 17-19 1 0 12 51 4.3 9 0 2 12 6.0 9 0 -- --
3 08/28 @ DET L 27-35 1 0 7 26 3.7 10 1 4 40 10.0 25 0 -- --
4 09/02 CHI W 13-10 0 0 -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
TOTAL 3 0 -- 80 0.0 10 1 9 86 9.6 26 0 0 0

Regular Season Games Rushing Receiving Fumbles
WK Game Date Opp Result G GS Att Yds Avg Lng TD Rec Yds Avg Lng TD FUM Lost
1 09/12 @ TB L 14-17 1 1 9 41 4.6 12 1 4 24 6.0 16 0 2 1
2 09/19 KC L 14-16 1 0 8 35 4.4 12 1 3 26 8.7 11 0 -- --
3 09/26 @ BAL L 17-24 1 1 22 144 6.5 48 1 7 36 5.1 11 0 -- --
4 10/03 CIN W 23-20 1 1 27 102 3.8 24 1 2 8 4.0 4 0 -- --
5 10/10 ATL L 10-20 1 1 10 28 2.8 9 0 4 49 12.3 19T 1 1 1
TOTAL 5 4 -- 350 0.0 48 4 20 143 7.2 19 1 3 2


in his last game 2.8 YPC just maybe they are figuring out he needs to be keyed on.

he is no longer a secret.

Tned
10-11-2010, 01:10 PM
in his last game 2.8 YPC just maybe they are figuring out he needs to be keyed on.

he is no longer a secret.

What was clear in those RW updates, along with the note I posted, was that the more offseason workouts that passed and TC time, the more Hillis was working his way into carries.

The point of that was that Mangini gave him the chance to compete. Didn't hand him the starting job, Moreno style, but gave him a chance to compete for carries. Then, when he earned the right to split time, he did the most of it, and has won the starting job.

As to the 2.8 YPC in one game, going with the blueprint argument is pretty silly. He was playing with an injured thigh, causing him to limp after every play and get substituted out more than normal (the previous week he played something like every offensive snap but 3, and the Browns appeared to go in with a throw first approach to that game.

While he might have been your adopted Bronco, you don't seem to know much about him or his progression in Cleveland. A google news search would help clear that up.

Lonestar
10-11-2010, 01:15 PM
What was clear in those RW updates, along with the note I posted, was that the more offseason workouts that passed and TC time, the more Hillis was working his way into carries.

The point of that was that Mangini gave him the chance to compete. Didn't hand him the starting job, Moreno style, but gave him a chance to compete for carries. Then, when he earned the right to split time, he did the most of it, and has won the starting job.

As to the 2.8 YPC in one game, going with the blueprint argument is pretty silly. He was playing with an injured thigh, causing him to limp after every play and get substituted out more than normal (the previous week he played something like every offensive snap but 3, and the Browns appeared to go in with a throw first approach to that game.

While he might have been your adopted Bronco, you don't seem to know much about him or his progression in Cleveland. A google news search would help clear that up.


So this was more of an indictment about Josh than his ability.

Thanks for clearing up he had a thigh issue.

As for following him frankly He is a Brown now, so while I like the kid and wish him well I'm not obsessing over him.

I have Tned to keep me up to date

Oldschoolcrush
10-11-2010, 01:15 PM
I see a lot of talk that our problems running are directly related to the OL, does the success of the run fall solely upon the shoulders of the line? I really don't think so.
You could use the excuse of where is the TE utilized? If you have a solid over the middle threat that needs to be addressed.... Well, this loosens up the defense stacked at the line.
This is the reality: you can't have "perfect" receivers, you can't have a "perfect" TE, you can't have a "perfect" line and you can't have "perfect" backs.... All at the same time! You need to decide where you want to attack and where you want to solidify talent.
You need to decide what you are creating on offense....
If you have a prolific quarterback, you first need targets for that quarterback. You need a talented TE that can be a deep threat as well as a solid over the middle receiver. You need an OL able to provide enough time to reach those targets. You need a power back that can play into the 3 yd (meager) per carry average consistently. Last, you can use a speed back as that role player...
You can set up the run with this offense by setting the defense back on their heals... This offense lengthens the field of play and exploits the middle of the field as the core, late in the game it opens the run to pound a tired defense.... Hint, in a close game you can't afford the QB to hurt you deep.... The defense remains on their heals.

If you have a prolific back: you first need an OL that is talented enough to provide different degrees of athleticism in creating blocking scenarios. You need a FB clean up to deal with holes in the blocking. You can afford a vanilla TE who can block and act as a dump receiver. You need a quarterback that is calculated... I'm not going to say vanilla, you never want that in a QB... But certainly not prolific. Last, you need targets for that QB.... Just the opposite, the running game sets up the pass... This offense shortens the field of play, opening the deep attack and the middle through play action pass.... Hint, in a close game, you can't afford a calculated use of the clock... The defense has to attack and shut it down.

You need to decide what scenario you're building and who you're building it around....
What kind of offense is McD building? So far I can't tell.... I see glimmers, but the lack of anything to back up these glimmers of hope show me nothing but vanilla.

Orton, is he prolific or calculated? I think he has defined himself as both. Fan-*******-tastic! What keeps defenses from opening up the line to the run? Well number one on the list above, the TE..... Defenses can stack the line because as shown above, the core, the middle is not being exploited enough. We're using talent at WR to do so and shortening the field of play that should otherwise be lengthened. Number two, the OL is giving OK enough protection and would continue doing so in a balanced scenario.... Number three, the power back smash mouth beast to back it up.... HMMMMM!

Orton has targets no doubt, but it is not balanced!

I'm not attaching anything to the player itself, that being Hillis... I'm looking at the balance of an offense and can't help but say that he would work nicely in what is going on, even though I can't honestly say what that is.
There seems to be a definite lack of focus on a team that has talent.
As of yet, the broncos have not been beaten; they have fallen upon their own lack of focus and left their talent standing with their dicks in their hands....
It happened all of last season.... I'm not expecting an offense to score TD's every red zone visit; but the percentages of FG's versus TD's was ridiculous..... Increase that percentage by a mere 20%, and they would have won most of their games.... This is where a prolific TE and a power back would increase success.
So much trading for ? and I haven't seen anything to support or develop the existing or acquired talent.
Now I want to add.
All this indulging of stats means nothing!

You need to decide what offensive scenario you are going for, this is ultimately what puts points on the score board... Then and only then can you decide what defense plays into said scenario....
A prolific offense geared towards the pass that lengthens the field of play needs a defense that shortens the defensive field of play on their end... It forces the opposition to speed up through a defensive line that attacks the QB forcing the quick throw or the shoot out.... Hint, it puts the ball back into the hands of your prolific offense, one way or the other.
A calculated offense geared towards the run needs a defense that can protect against an opposition putting up points on the board, it lengthens the defensive field of play and manages the clock on both ends....It forces the opposition to run the ball and the short gain... If you can manage better and give yourself the edge, it forces the opposition to abandon the run and play directly into your strength.
What do we see in the Denver D? It's all over the place.... The most important is there is no attack, there is no pass rush.... This concludes that we are in time management where the defensive field of play is lengthened. On the opposite end, our offense then should be able to run the ball and manage the clock...... And?
McD is all over the place, his focus seems absolutely scattered..... We see exactly that in what the defense is doing... Vanilla!

Tned
10-11-2010, 01:26 PM
So this was more of an indictment about Josh than his ability.

Thanks for clearing up he had a thigh issue.

As for following him frankly He is a Brown now, so while I like the kid and wish him well I'm not obsessing over him.

I have Tned to keep me up to date

No, it wasn't an indictment of Josh, it was a fact. I never claimed Hillis was proclaimed the starter day one, like Moreno, but instead was given a shot to earn a starting role --- remember a guy named TD that was allowed to 'compete' for a job?

Nice "obsessing jab", I wouldn't expect anything less from you. :salute:

For someone "not" obsessing, you seem to be posting a crap load of meaningless stats and working real hard to prove how he is nothing more than a 'situational' back.

robert ethan
10-11-2010, 01:34 PM
No one would be talking about them except for the fact that they're lighting it up in their new digs. Obviously.

That fact makes them conversation worthy. As for the Scheffler deal, the Broncos used the pick they got for him on Perrish Cox, who made Alf Smith expendable. Alf brought Dan Gronkowski from Detroit to take Scheffler's spot, and Dan has proven to be very versatile and useful so far. Quinn was a first round pick who was rated as one of the top five players available in his draft year. Anytime you get a chance to acquire a QB with his potential for a player who was drafted in the seventh round you have to jump on it.

The picture can change in a moment for the players on both sides of the equation. You have to keep that in mind before passing judgement.

Tned
10-11-2010, 01:48 PM
No one would be talking about them except for the fact that they're lighting it up in their new digs. Obviously.

That fact makes them conversation worthy. As for the Scheffler deal, the Broncos used the pick they got for him on Perrish Cox, who made Alf Smith expendable. Alf brought Dan Gronkowski from Detroit to take Scheffler's spot, and Dan has proven to be very versatile and useful so far. Quinn was a first round pick who was rated as one of the top five players available in his draft year. Anytime you get a chance to acquire a QB with his potential for a player who was drafted in the seventh round you have to jump on it.

The picture can change in a moment for the players on both sides of the equation. You have to keep that in mind before passing judgement.

I don't have much problem with most of the moves themselves. I would like to still have Hillis here, but with all the moves but possibly Schefler, I understand the rationale behind it. What I get sick of is the need to trash the players current and past accomplishments in order to 'justify' McDaniels making the moves.

It's silly. McDaniels is the head coach and was given full authority. He is doing what he thinks is necessary to get the Broncos to a point of being competitive, which has the important (to him) side effect of allowing him to remain the head coach. I fail to see why people need to revise history or find ways to trash ex-players to try and justify the trades. :confused:

dogfish
10-11-2010, 01:55 PM
Anytime you get a chance to acquire a QB with his potential for a player who was drafted in the seventh round you have to jump on it.


even when the 7th rounder is a nasty, bruising hybrid back and the QB is total garbage?


good player >>> shitty player

regardless of draft status or position. . . .

robert ethan
10-11-2010, 02:09 PM
"Nasty bruising backs" have a notoriously short life span in the NFL. I will be willing to bet you Hillis does not last the season. Quinn is not "garbage", he just happens to be stuck behind the hottest QB in the league at the moment. Brady's numbers prior to coming to Denver were as good as any of the "hot young QBs" like Flacco, Stafford, Ryan, Freeman, Sanchez, etc. He had a completion percentage of 50+ and a passer rating around 70. That is all any of those others managed as rookies in the league.

KCL
10-11-2010, 02:11 PM
"Nasty bruising backs" have a notoriously short life span in the NFL. I will be willing to bet you Hillis does not last the season. Quinn is not "garbage", he just happens to be stuck behind the hottest QB in the league at the moment. Brady's numbers prior to coming to Denver were as good as any of the "hot young QBs" like Flacco, Stafford, Ryan, Freeman, Sanchez, etc. He had a completion percentage of 50+ and a passer rating around 70. That is all any of those others managed as rookies in the league.

What reason do you have for saying he won't last the season? Why wouldn't he? As for injuries that can happen to any player...are you thinking he is going to have a season ending injury?

Lonestar
10-11-2010, 02:12 PM
No, it wasn't an indictment of Josh, it was a fact. I never claimed Hillis was proclaimed the starter day one, like Moreno, but instead was given a shot to earn a starting role --- remember a guy named TD that was allowed to 'compete' for a job?

Nice "obsessing jab", I wouldn't expect anything less from you. :salute:

For someone "not" obsessing, you seem to be posting a crap load of meaningless stats and working real hard to prove how he is nothing more than a 'situational' back.

The fact is and was until we lost 4-5 RBs to IR he was never a RB in DEN he was a blocking FB when he was in the game which was rarely until game 10. He did catch some out of the backfield passes.

But let's be real he was never considered by anyone on here,nor probably the coaching staff as a "RB".

Even after the injury almost everyone was speculating about who we would draft as a RB. Before and after mike got fired.

The mentalility in DEN since mike arrived has been RB's are max 215 with most at 210 or less. That has beem prevelant on most forums as along as I can remember.

The obsessing was not focused on you but in honor of the thread name.

Although if the shoe fits. :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

Oldschoolcrush
10-11-2010, 02:16 PM
even when the 7th rounder is a nasty, bruising hybrid back and the QB is total garbage?


good player >>> shitty player

regardless of draft status or position. . . .
In McD's defense, there was a lot of controversy in the entire Cutler issue; if it came crumbling down upon his head.... The lynch mob would have had their way with him..... He was overly cautious to give himself an escape route in options with the QB position; now in hindsight, it has hurt him in other positions!
Orton has surprised everyone, I think there is still question as to whether we now build a foundation around him?

robert ethan
10-11-2010, 02:24 PM
What reason do you have for saying he won't last the season? Why wouldn't he? As for injuries that can happen to any player...are you thinking he is going to have a season ending injury?

Anyone who thrives on hard physical contact is bound to be more suseptible to injury. Running backs generally have short careers, many leave their best games in college. Quarterbacks are later bloomers. Prime years for runners are nearly a decade earlier than for a quarterback.

Tned
10-11-2010, 02:44 PM
The fact is and was until we lost 4-5 RBs to IR he was never a RB in DEN he was a blocking FB when he was in the game which was rarely until game 10. He did catch some out of the backfield passes.

But let's be real he was never considered by anyone on here,nor probably the coaching staff as a "RB".

Even after the injury almost everyone was speculating about who we would draft as a RB. Before and after mike got fired.

The mentalility in DEN since mike arrived has been RB's are max 215 with most at 210 or less. That has beem prevelant on most forums as along as I can remember.

The obsessing was not focused on you but in honor of the thread name.

Although if the shoe fits. :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

TD wasn't considered starting material. Tom Brady wasn't considered starting material. Rod Smith wasn't considered starting material.

I fail to see what the "before he got a chance to start" has to do with anything? Are you saying that because he wasn't drafted as an RB or slated from day one to be an RB, then hence forth, he shall never be an RB? :confused:

Let's not go with the shoe fits stuff, we've been getting along, and I would hate to go down that road.

GEM
10-11-2010, 02:57 PM
:laugh: How many threads in how many forums can we continually rehash the same shit over and over and over again? We might as well rename this place Peyton Hillis Central.


:lol:

Tned
10-11-2010, 03:16 PM
:laugh: How many threads in how many forums can we continually rehash the same shit over and over and over again? We might as well rename this place Peyton Hillis Central.


:lol:

At least they're not Cutler threads... ;)

Lonestar
10-11-2010, 03:26 PM
TD wasn't considered starting material. Tom Brady wasn't considered starting material. Rod Smith wasn't considered starting material.

I fail to see what the "before he got a chance to start" has to do with anything? Are you saying that because he wasn't drafted as an RB or slated from day one to be an RB, then hence forth, he shall never be an RB? :confused:

Let's not go with the shoe fits stuff, we've been getting along, and I would hate to go down that road. the shoe fits was a joke

Lately you have NO sense of humor. we really need a sarcasm smile that I can you as the :laugh: is not getting my point across.


Your correct that TD was not a high draft choice and Rod well not even drafted. They were brought into play WR and RB not some odd position.

Like wise Hillis was drafted for FB and blocking FB at that, not RB. I remember it plain as day when mike was talking about him.

Then Larsen of all person beat him out as the blocking FB for one great reason PH is not a NFL blocking FB.

I'M NOT TRASHING HIM I like the guy and wish him well.

I was just replying to an adoring fan that miss spoke the actual truth .

Hillis was not used hardly at all as a RB prior to game 10, his he was in as a BB spelling Larsen and in to make catches out of the backfield.

game one 3 plays then shelved till game 10
late in the game this being the 4th quarter



1-10-OAK 32 (12:12) 22-P.Hillis up the middle to OAK 28 for 4 yards (Team).

1-10-OAK 10 (10:51) 22-P.Hillis up the middle to OAK 5 for 5 yards (Team).

3-2-OAK 10 (6:39) 22-P.Hillis up the middle to OAK 5 for 5 yards (28-G.Wilson).

being used as a mop up player when the faiders had faded.


He was not really in as THE RB as a lot of folks want to believe. As much as I liked the guy and wanted him to get that shot as a RB, it did not happen till the others were injured and frankly it turned out much better than I even thought.

I always said he would be the next Kevin Faulk for Josh and just may have been had Quinn not become available,

As for spending time showing the truth when did that ever hurt.

Lonestar
10-11-2010, 03:28 PM
:laugh: How many threads in how many forums can we continually rehash the same shit over and over and over again? We might as well rename this place Peyton Hillis Central.


:lol:

the name of the thread is.

Whats the obsession with ex role players?

did I miss something?

Tned
10-11-2010, 03:45 PM
the shoe fits was a joke

Lately you have NO sense of humor. we really need a sarcasm smile that I can you as the :laugh: is not getting my point across.


Your correct that TD was not a high draft choice and Rod well not even drafted. They were brought into play WR and RB not some odd position.

Like wise Hillis was drafted for FB and blocking FB at that, not RB. I remember it plain as day when mike was talking about him.

Then Larsen of all person beat him out as the blocking FB for one great reason PH is not a NFL blocking FB.

I'M NOT TRASHING HIM I like the guy and wish him well.

I was just replying to an adoring fan that miss spoke the actual truth .

Hillis was not used hardly at all as a RB prior to game 10, his he was in as a BB spelling Larsen and in to make catches out of the backfield.

game one 3 plays then shelved till game 10
late in the game this being the 4th quarter



1-10-OAK 32 (12:12) 22-P.Hillis up the middle to OAK 28 for 4 yards (Team).

1-10-OAK 10 (10:51) 22-P.Hillis up the middle to OAK 5 for 5 yards (Team).

3-2-OAK 10 (6:39) 22-P.Hillis up the middle to OAK 5 for 5 yards (28-G.Wilson).

being used as a mop up player when the faiders had faded.


He was not really in as THE RB as a lot of folks want to believe. As much as I liked the guy and wanted him to get that shot as a RB, it did not happen till the others were injured and frankly it turned out much better than I even thought.

I always said he would be the next Kevin Faulk for Josh and just may have been had Quinn not become available,

As for spending time showing the truth when did that ever hurt.

As to sense of humor. It's hard to separate sarcasm and jokes from attacks and belittling these days. If the latter went away, then the former would be fun again.

As to Hillis, agreed, he isn't the best blocking FB in the NFL. Probably wasn't even one of the best blocking FB's in college. The reason he was on the field so much in Arkansas is because he is a playmaker, whether running or catching. What he's doing in Cleveland. What he did in Denver ever since the team needed him on that fourth down run against Cleveland, and then on to the games he played RB in '08.

Again, I'm not sure why you are so obsessed (seems to be the word du jour) with how he was originally drafted, since that all went out the window once he was given a chance to play, putting up both a hundred yard receiving day and a hundred yard rushing day in '08, while leading the Broncos in rushing and having close to a 5 YPC average.

He may go on to have a nice career, or he may quickly fade away to being a bench guy, but that's going to play out on the field, not on obsessing on what position he was drafted to play.

jhildebrand
10-11-2010, 03:53 PM
"Nasty bruising backs" have a notoriously short life span in the NFL. I will be willing to bet you Hillis does not last the season.

Which isn't a concern when the team only used a 7th rounder on the guy.

Had they used the #12 overall pick I would be totally pissed off if the guy was a bruiser and picked up the hard yard and had a short career because of it!

Oh wait! :lol: We used the #12 on a RB who can't even get on the field.

Lonestar
10-11-2010, 04:18 PM
This post has been debunked several times for its inaccuracies. Maybe if you watched the Broncos in 08 you would know better.

The fact is Shanahan from day 1 in TC said Hillis possibly had the best hands on the team and said he would be a big contributor.

Second, Hillis played in game 1 against the Raiders. So much for your idea that it wasn't until "4 other RB's on IR" idea.

Third, Hillis, in one of the most complicated offenses known to the NFL, learned not just the FB position but the RB position. I guess that debunks the stupid theory.

Finally, Hillis will keep his carries. He has shown to be hard to tackle even though everybody knows he is getting the ball and everybody knows the Browns can't do anything otherwise.

Holmgren runs a system similar to Shanahan. Mangini wont be there at the conclusion of this season. Holmgren most assuredly recognizes the value of Hillis and he will be there for a long time to come!!!!!


As to sense of humor. It's hard to separate sarcasm and jokes from attacks and belittling these days. If the latter went away, then the former would be fun again.

As to Hillis, agreed, he isn't the best blocking FB in the NFL. Probably wasn't even one of the best blocking FB's in college. The reason he was on the field so much in Arkansas is because he is a playmaker, whether running or catching. What he's doing in Cleveland. What he did in Denver ever since the team needed him on that fourth down run against Cleveland, and then on to the games he played RB in '08.

Again, I'm not sure why you are so obsessed (seems to be the word du jour) with how he was originally drafted, since that all went out the window once he was given a chance to play, putting up both a hundred yard receiving day and a hundred yard rushing day in '08, while leading the Broncos in rushing and having close to a 5 YPC average.

He may go on to have a nice career, or he may quickly fade away to being a bench guy, but that's going to play out on the field, not on obsessing on what position he was drafted to play.
every thing I originally posted was to Debunk the debunking going on in the first post.

While hillis had a great year AFTER he go to start prior to the RB causalities he did have 3 THREE count them again 3 caries as a RB in game one to all but disappear from the radar till game 9 when he had some receptions and then got to touch the ball in game 10 as a RB.

So yes he did play in games prior to all of the other RB's going on IR but it was not because of his prowess or so mike and Bobby thought.

Now I hope I have cleared up my postion on Hillis. He was a surprise to all but a few of us that he could be a RB.

robert ethan
10-11-2010, 04:29 PM
Which isn't a concern when the team only used a 7th rounder on the guy.

Had they used the #12 overall pick I would be totally pissed off if the guy was a bruiser and picked up the hard yard and had a short career because of it!

Oh wait! :lol: We used the #12 on a RB who can't even get on the field.

True enough. I would never have used a first round pick on a RB. Although the Cards using the #31 pick on Wells that year was probably not bad value. If you look around the league, most of the top running backs, Peterson, Johnson, Fostor, Rice, etc. are all 25 or under, while the top quarterbacks, Manning, Brees, Brady, are all over 30. That is why I don't have a problem with the Hillis for Quinn deal. History tells you the RB will look better early and the QB later.

The Glue Factory
10-11-2010, 04:44 PM
So this has turned into a Peyton Hillis thread. With all the back and forth I've noticed a couple things that have been missed.

Hillis had his opportunity to win a roster spot with McDaniels. He seemed to have fumbled it away early and dutifully followed that up with, IIRC, costly penalties and/or having a hard time being in the right place at the snap (as I recall from when he went into the doghouse, not the revisionist history from this year.)

Added is that last year Bobby Turner was still our RB guru. If Hillis was such a potent powerhouse wouldn't Turner have fought McDaniels to give him playing time? Instead Hillis didn't break the line up once Moreno beat him out. By that time his time in Denver was over. It seems like it wasn't one thing (like Cutler and Marshall) that made his move out of Denver inevitible, but a multitude of things.

In the end Hillis' departure will always be clouded in mystery about the why (unlike Cutler and Marshall.) He was a fan favorite but obviously didn't make it out of practice as a coach's favorite.

Tned
10-11-2010, 05:01 PM
So this has turned into a Peyton Hillis thread. With all the back and forth I've noticed a couple things that have been missed.

Hillis had his opportunity to win a roster spot with McDaniels. He seemed to have fumbled it away early and dutifully followed that up with, IIRC, costly penalties and/or having a hard time being in the right place at the snap (as I recall from when he went into the doghouse, not the revisionist history from this year.)

Added is that last year Bobby Turner was still our RB guru. If Hillis was such a potent powerhouse wouldn't Turner have fought McDaniels to give him playing time? Instead Hillis didn't break the line up once Moreno beat him out. By that time his time in Denver was over. It seems like it wasn't one thing (like Cutler and Marshall) that made his move out of Denver inevitible, but a multitude of things.

In the end Hillis' departure will always be clouded in mystery about the why (unlike Cutler and Marshall.) He was a fan favorite but obviously didn't make it out of practice as a coach's favorite.

No revision. As to the chance:

In game one or two, first and goal, Hillis had a false start.

In the Cleveland game, he was put in to return kickoffs (because that's what most teams do with 250lb fullbacks) and he fumbled at around the 20.

AFter the fumble, he was pretty much gone from the scene. He did make one more appearance, where they brought him in and he was lined up at TE or in the slot, but apparently lined up on the wrong side, or was supposed to motion across.

Now, shall we review other players who had false starts or fumbles last year?

Basically, the argumet goes that the false start on the goal line and fumbled kickoff return were his "chance" that he blew. Did Cox blow his chance with his muffed punt? Did Moreno with his many fumbles (a couple not called due to quick whistle, but replaying showing as a fumble) last season?

Come on. I can almost buy the "he wasn't a fit for the system", bu the revisionist, apologists who claim he got his shot and blew it clearly don't use the same yardstick for all players.

ogplife
10-11-2010, 05:40 PM
A clinic in running? :confused: Jerome Harrison only managed 6 yards on 6 carries yesterday.

You obviously didn't get it. The clinic would be the Titans or Vikings.

The Glue Factory
10-11-2010, 05:50 PM
I agree, game three and Hillis was in the doghouse; never to return. It seems like he didn't have much of a chance but what role did Turner have in Hillis' chances last year?

ogplife
10-11-2010, 05:51 PM
:laugh: How many threads in how many forums can we continually rehash the same shit over and over and over again? We might as well rename this place Peyton Hillis Central.


:lol:

I don't get it either, thats why I made this thread. It's rediculous, I'm right with you.

jhildebrand
10-11-2010, 05:58 PM
True enough. I would never have used a first round pick on a RB. Although the Cards using the #31 pick on Wells that year was probably not bad value. If you look around the league, most of the top running backs, Peterson, Johnson, Fostor, Rice, etc. are all 25 or under, while the top quarterbacks, Manning, Brees, Brady, are all over 30. That is why I don't have a problem with the Hillis for Quinn deal. History tells you the RB will look better early and the QB later.

But Manning,Brady and Brees all played early. They all got and kept their starting jobs once they had them. Quinn couldn't even beat out Derek Anderson who just lost his job to Max Hall.

KCL
10-11-2010, 06:11 PM
At least they're not Cutler threads... ;)

Yes for this week anyway!!! :lol:

Tned
10-11-2010, 07:15 PM
Yes for this week anyway!!! :lol:

That was until RC went and started one. Oh well....

spikerman
10-11-2010, 07:25 PM
:laugh: How many threads in how many forums can we continually rehash the same shit over and over and over again? We might as well rename this place Peyton Hillis Central.


:lol: "Peyton Place?"

The Glue Factory
10-11-2010, 07:59 PM
No revision.

Basically, the argumet goes that the false start on the goal line and fumbled kickoff return were his "chance" that he blew. Did Cox blow his chance with his muffed punt? Did Moreno with his many fumbles (a couple not called due to quick whistle, but replaying showing as a fumble) last season?

Come on. I can almost buy the "he wasn't a fit for the system", bu the revisionist, apologists who claim he got his shot and blew it clearly don't use the same yardstick for all players.

I didn't say he did get the same yardstick, just that he was given his chance and didn't provide a good showing for it, in game day situations.

While Cox muffed a punt he doesn't seem to have followed that up with other issues.

Moreno? Not sure why he got such a good shake other than being 1st round pick.

None of that is to say I like what happened. I would love to see Hillis running in Denver. I can see how he might have gotten another chance this but for the trade for Quinn. If Cleveland keeps Quinn just one more year, does Hillis stay in Denver? We'll never know, but it's a possibility. I'll have to ask God when I see him face-to-face (unfortunately, I won't be able to give you the answer at that point. ;) )

Lonestar
10-11-2010, 08:47 PM
No revision. As to the chance:

In game one or two, first and goal, Hillis had a false start.

In the Cleveland game, he was put in to return kickoffs (because that's what most teams do with 250lb fullbacks) and he fumbled at around the 20.

AFter the fumble, he was pretty much gone from the scene. He did make one more appearance, where they brought him in and he was lined up at TE or in the slot, but apparently lined up on the wrong side, or was supposed to motion across.

Now, shall we review other players who had false starts or fumbles last year?

Basically, the argumet goes that the false start on the goal line and fumbled kickoff return were his "chance" that he blew. Did Cox blow his chance with his muffed punt? Did Moreno with his many fumbles (a couple not called due to quick whistle, but replaying showing as a fumble) last season?

Come on. I can almost buy the "he wasn't a fit for the system", bu the revisionist, apologists who claim he got his shot and blew it clearly don't use the same yardstick for all players.



Perhaps he did get more chances in Practice and did not do well. there could be a lot behind the scenes that caused his exile. something that to the ardent/casual fan may not be visible.

Lonestar
10-11-2010, 08:49 PM
But Manning,Brady and Brees all played early. They all got and kept their starting jobs once they had them. Quinn couldn't even beat out Derek Anderson who just lost his job to Max Hall.

just curious who drafted Quinn was it mangini.. I'm asking because I have not followed that mess in CLE for along time.

nevcraw
10-11-2010, 09:03 PM
Perhaps he did get more chances in Practice and did not do well. there could be a lot behind the scenes that caused his exile. something that to the ardent/casual fan may not be visible.

Perhaps the FO just screwed the pooch & tossed Hillis away for a 3rd string QB.
since then in order to stop the bleeding the FO has tossed money, draft picks and roster spots at the postion of which absolutely none of these have worked..

jhildebrand
10-11-2010, 09:19 PM
just curious who drafted Quinn was it mangini.. I'm asking because I have not followed that mess in CLE for along time.

Savage drafting Crennel coaching.

Lonestar
10-11-2010, 09:25 PM
Savage drafting Crennel coaching.

could be part of the reason he fell out of disfavor and why Anderson was starting. But then it could be because it sucks in CLE..

jhildebrand
10-11-2010, 09:37 PM
could be part of the reason he fell out of disfavor and why Anderson was starting. But then it could be because it sucks in CLE..

He was given his chances to beat out Charlie Frye and Derek Anderson.

We also have to remember that he was supposed to have a huge leg up having played in a similar, if not identical system, under Weiss at ND for Mangini and now McD.

Lonestar
10-11-2010, 09:46 PM
He was given his chances to beat out Charlie Frye and Derek Anderson.

We also have to remember that he was supposed to have a huge leg up having played in a similar, if not identical system, under Weiss at ND for Mangini and now McD.

not sure about in CLE as I try real hard not to waste my time on that sink hole.

But as for here the scheme is olnly partially the same. but since mangini , crenell and how many other ex NE coaches went there it was re-defined and melded into the spread offense by mostly Josh.

SO learning the offense here while not getting many snaps is tough to do. So I look for him to have improvement NEXT year to a smaller degree thna Kyle had this year. same goes for Tebow he will have a years film room practices behind him come next TC.

Tned
10-11-2010, 10:10 PM
Perhaps he did get more chances in Practice and did not do well. there could be a lot behind the scenes that caused his exile. something that to the ardent/casual fan may not be visible.

Yep. Can't remember the reporter, but he reported last year that the Broncos give out a black jersey to the best player in practice (per position I think) and that Hillis never won it.

Don't misunderstand where I'm coming from. I am not one of the ones crucifying McDaniels for not playing him last year, and for trading him. However, at the same time, I'll call BS on the "he got his chance and played himself on to the bench with fumbles and penalties...". When it comes to "in game stuff" it is just ridiculous to make that claim, with all the sloppy play and crap performances we saw last year.

Lonestar
10-11-2010, 10:35 PM
Yep. Can't remember the reporter, but he reported last year that the Broncos give out a black jersey to the best player in practice (per position I think) and that Hillis never won it.

Don't misunderstand where I'm coming from. I am not one of the ones crucifying McDaniels for not playing him last year, and for trading him. However, at the same time, I'll call BS on the "he got his chance and played himself on to the bench with fumbles and penalties...". When it comes to "in game stuff" it is just ridiculous to make that claim, with all the sloppy play and crap performances we saw last year.

Again I liked the kid. BUT something did not click for him here boith with mike and Josh for what ever the reason.

I'm happy for him in CLE ans hope he has a monster season and gets paid what he is worth.

Frankly i have to wonder how many years he can keep the punishment up hope he saves his money and does not waste it on anything.

Tned
10-11-2010, 10:47 PM
Again I liked the kid. BUT something did not click for him here boith with mike and Josh for what ever the reason.

I'm happy for him in CLE ans hope he has a monster season and gets paid what he is worth.

Frankly i have to wonder how many years he can keep the punishment up hope he saves his money and does not waste it on anything.

You over play the "didn't click with Mike" card. He was drafted as a FB, and there was a stable of running backs. Shanahan raved about his pass catching early in camp and season, before he took over the RB role.

The fact that he was not able to leap from FB to starting RB, passing 4 or 5 half backs along the way is NOT a surprise.

The point is that once he got a chance, when the Broncos had no backs left and needed to convert a 4th down, he was put in to run, and converted the first, carrying a LB on his back for three yards. From that point on, until he tore his hamstring, making an incredible catch I might add, he was by far the best running back we had in '08.

So, to keep saying "something didn't click with Mike" is disingenuous, because you and I both know that prior to getting a chance to play in the RB spot, there was nothing to click.

Northman
10-11-2010, 10:52 PM
could be part of the reason he fell out of disfavor and why Anderson was starting. But then it could be because it sucks in CLE..

Actually, Quinn not starting had a lot to do with him holding out initially.

Tned
10-12-2010, 06:48 AM
Again I liked the kid. BUT something did not click for him here boith with mike and Josh for what ever the reason.


This was another play from this past Sunday. I'm guessing it was plays like this that caused hillis to not "click"...

oTlzdhliw9g

The guy is a human highlight reel. Each of his game provides plenty more.

P.S. I'm pretty sure all of the one-dimensional, short yardage backs in the league can do that.

GEM
10-12-2010, 09:11 AM
the name of the thread is.

Whats the obsession with ex role players?

did I miss something?


And it's turned into yet another Hillis love/hatchet fest.

Mike
10-12-2010, 09:14 AM
In my book there exists only Broncos and retired Broncos. ;)

Gone is gone, good or bad.

Tned
10-12-2010, 09:14 AM
And it's turned into yet another Hillis love/hatchet fest.

The whole premise of the OP's post was to say Tony Scheffler and Peyton Hillis are not very talented role players, so why does anyone care they're gone. Based on that, you pretty much have to expext the thread is going to involve discussion about those players.

GEM
10-12-2010, 09:38 AM
Yep, the thread didn't need to be started because it just invited more talk of the very thing you don't want to hear anymore. I get that....it's just geeez. :laugh:

Northman
10-12-2010, 09:40 AM
Always amusing.

People dont want to hear about ex-players but are quick to start topics on them everyday. Too funny.

GEM
10-12-2010, 10:07 AM
Always amusing.

People dont want to hear about ex-players but are quick to start topics on them everyday. Too funny.

Yep, doesn't make a whole lotta sense. :lol:


I think I will go start a Cutler, Marshall, Hillis and Scheffler thread, separately of course. :D

Tned
10-12-2010, 01:33 PM
Always amusing.

People dont want to hear about ex-players but are quick to start topics on them everyday. Too funny.

It's ok to start threads to bash them, or criticize posters who don't bash them, just not to post anything postive. You know how it is.

silkamilkamonico
10-12-2010, 01:37 PM
These one sided baiting threads for/or against the coaches/players are ridiculous, and their needs to be a separate form for it, just like there needed to be a separate form for it the moment McDaniels was hired.

T.K.O.
10-12-2010, 02:55 PM
travis henry lead the league in rushing through the first 4 games of the season......that was awesome:D
i wonder if he could get a work release to help us out ?:confused:

Tned
10-12-2010, 07:06 PM
As to my "obsession" with Hillis, besides him being a Razorback and Arky, can be summed up in these three pictures that Arkie posted on the Mane:


Leaping is Hillis's 6th tool! ;)

http://d.yimg.com/a/p/ap/20101010/capt.ac2013ee3c124994b2dc7a55b028cce3-ac2013ee3c124994b2dc7a55b028cce3-0.jpg?x=265&y=345&q=85&sig=me6sV8.Wykm1JIhWnM9MMQ--
http://www.waitingfornextyear.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/Hillis-Hurdle.jpg
http://www.shnock.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/Peyton-Hillis2.jpg

The kid is just so versatile and fun to watch. It's why he had a cult following in Arkansas. Had a cult following in Denver. Has a cult following in Cleveland.

nevcraw
10-12-2010, 07:34 PM
travis henry lead the league in rushing through the first 4 games of the season......that was awesome:D
i wonder if he could get a work release to help us out ?:confused:

oh boy. . . :smacks head in wonderment: