PDA

View Full Version : Northman's Gameday Thoughts 10/10/10



Northman
10-10-2010, 04:13 PM
First and foremost,

I have to give props to my mother-in-law who yet again came up with great tickets to the ballgame. Had free food and beer all day so one can never go wrong. Did i mention free beer? :D

Now, to the game.

Lets face it folks. We just cannot play physical, punishing football. We yet again got manhandled at every turn today. I know that McD brings the same blueprint from NE but at least NE has stars and ball players who can make plays, especially on defense. I know we are young at some positions but man, we just got punched in the mouth and battered all day.

I will say this, Orton is still playing his ass off and i really like it. His pass too Lloyd at the end of the first half was exceptional. And i really thought we had a chance with us getting the ball first in the second half. But for the second year in a row McD is outcoached not only by the Harbaugh but by Cam Cameron as well. Ray Rice had a field day on us and that is troubling considering he came in hobbled and banged up.

Cox obviously struggled at times out there and the Ravens took advantage of that. And oh my god, the penalties? Holy shit, time and time again the penalties killed great plays. Its just so disheartening to see that from us. And quite frankly, even though i know the Ravens run defense was supposed to be a weakness i half expected McD to just air it out today and yet he still tried to force the square peg into the round hole. We dont have RB's folks. Obviously there were no holes to go through anyway but watching a guy like Rice make something out of nothing for the Ravens tells me we need an actual "player" at the RB position.

In the long run im not even pissed. I expected a loss but was hoping that we could of showed improvement and kept it close. Just wasnt happening and we have a LONG way to go yet even though we should be competing for the division.

On a side note, even though they lost as well KC is the real deal from what i can see. They played a Indy team very tough in their house. I apologize that its not more "in-depth" but im still buzzing pretty good. lol

Mike
10-10-2010, 04:15 PM
North, you are barred from attending Bronco games.

Northman
10-10-2010, 04:17 PM
North, you are barred from attending Bronco games.

I think so too. I think i really pissed the gods off by wearing the Elway jersey. :(

Shazam!
10-10-2010, 04:20 PM
The lack of any kind of running game that keeps opposing teams alert is killing this team.

Northman
10-10-2010, 04:23 PM
The lack of any kind of running game that keeps opposing teams alert is killing this team.

Yea, its pretty sad.

I mean, the good news is that when we want to pass we usually can and thats a pretty good statement. But man, our running game scares NO ONE. :lol:

Mike
10-10-2010, 04:25 PM
The lack of any kind of running game that keeps opposing teams alert is killing this team.

I agree that it is hurting them. But simply put, the run game sucks and it looked like they were trying to force it today and that was killing them. Running the ball is literally wasting plays. I don't like it, but it is a fact. Denver just needs to go with the pass. Sad but true.

Northman
10-10-2010, 04:28 PM
I agree that it is hurting them. But simply put, the run game sucks and it looked like they were trying to force it today and that was killing them. Running the ball is literally wasting plays. I don't like it, but it is a fact. Denver just needs to go with the pass. Sad but true.

Thats how i saw it. Kyle looked like he was ready to get in a groove and McD kept forcing the run which was actually losing yardage. He didnt do Kyle any favors today.

claymore
10-10-2010, 04:32 PM
I think its funny when our play action actully fools teams. :D

Mike
10-10-2010, 04:34 PM
I think its funny when our play action actully fools teams. :D

Orton hides the ball really well. That is the only thing I can guess.

spikerman
10-10-2010, 04:35 PM
Yea, its pretty sad.

I mean, the good news is that when we want to pass we usually can and thats a pretty good statement. But man, our running game scares NO ONE. :lol:
It scares Broncos' fans.

claymore
10-10-2010, 04:40 PM
Orton hides the ball really well. That is the only thing I can guess.

Only thing I can figure is they are so eager to pad their stats they forget to "Stay Home".

camdisco24
10-10-2010, 05:19 PM
What I dont understand is, we can stop Chris Johnson one week and then turn around and let Ray Rice run all over us. Obviously the Ravens are a better team all around compared to the titans, but still... It just annoying to watch.

I about pulled all my hair out with all the penalties too... Im basically bald now.

silkamilkamonico
10-10-2010, 05:20 PM
I don't even know what to think about our run game anymore. I don't know if it's the scheme, if our running backs are that bad, or if our oline just flat out suck. IMHO I never see the oline get to the next level. If there is a hole it engulfed immediately by unblocked LB's. What's worse, I'm beginning to think that our shitty run game is just the trifecta. Terrible scheme, terrible RB's, terrible oline.

Just say **** it, and throw the ball 65+ times a game.

horsepig
10-10-2010, 05:25 PM
I'm about bald too. Do they actually practice?

horsepig
10-10-2010, 05:27 PM
BTW, why would you star Hochstein over Beadles? Is Beadles actually lees effective than Russ?

spikerman
10-10-2010, 05:27 PM
I'm about bald too. Do they actually practice?

"We talkin' 'bout practice"

- Allen Iverson

TXBRONC
10-10-2010, 05:30 PM
I agree that it is hurting them. But simply put, the run game sucks and it looked like they were trying to force it today and that was killing them. Running the ball is literally wasting plays. I don't like it, but it is a fact. Denver just needs to go with the pass. Sad but true.


Thats how i saw it. Kyle looked like he was ready to get in a groove and McD kept forcing the run which was actually losing yardage. He didnt do Kyle any favors today.

From what I saw it looked like running game showed a tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny, bit of a pulse today. Maroney and Buckhalter did have a few and I due stress few runs that got some solid positive yardage. :ahhhhh:

Northman
10-10-2010, 05:36 PM
From what I saw it looked like running game showed a tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny, bit of a pulse today. Maroney and Buckhalter did have a few and I due stress few runs that got some solid positive yardage. :ahhhhh:

Not me, and i was right there. The one few good plays we had were called back on penalties. I was looking like a fool jumping up and yelling until i saw the laundry on the field. It just got beyond ridiculous. If McD is about holding people accountable he needs to start getting on these guys. That shit is just unacceptable.

Mike
10-10-2010, 05:41 PM
BTW, why would you star Hochstein over Beadles? Is Beadles actually lees effective than Russ?

Daniels has been playing. Hochstein got the start over him.

Mike
10-10-2010, 05:43 PM
From what I saw it looked like running game showed a tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny, bit of a pulse today. Maroney and Buckhalter did have a few and I due stress few runs that got some solid positive yardage. :ahhhhh:

Maybe 4 of 5 runs are for no gain or a loss. Which is slightly better than last week. But still not enough of a pulse to make it worth it.

TXBRONC
10-10-2010, 06:09 PM
Daniels has been playing. Hochstein got the start over him.

And IIRC the announcers said that Daniels not starting had nothing to do with injury.

TXBRONC
10-10-2010, 06:10 PM
Maybe 4 of 5 runs are for no gain or a loss. Which is slightly better than last week. But still not enough of a pulse to make it worth it.

I did say a tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny bit. :D

BORDERLINE
10-10-2010, 07:16 PM
northman i'm not a veteran on here...but is it your fault that they lose when you attend there games???if so don't go no more please...j/k we are just not at there level yet...at least that's what I took from it...only five games in and we are still 1 1/2 games out of first place...i still have hope...McD has to look in the mirror and step up his play calling. Lloyd is a weapon and we have to use him ....

Northman
10-10-2010, 07:23 PM
northman i'm not a veteran on here...but is it your fault that they lose when you attend there games???if so don't go no more please...j/k we are just not at there level yet...at least that's what I took from it...only five games in and we are still 1 1/2 games out of first place...i still have hope...McD has to look in the mirror and step up his play calling. Lloyd is a weapon and we have to use him ....

Agreed.

Denver Native (Carol)
10-10-2010, 07:27 PM
northman i'm not a veteran on here...but is it your fault that they lose when you attend there games???if so don't go no more please...j/k we are just not at there level yet...at least that's what I took from it...only five games in and we are still 1 1/2 games out of first place...i still have hope...McD has to look in the mirror and step up his play calling. Lloyd is a weapon and we have to use him ....

Coach McD admitted today that he was out coached - it was one of the first things he said in his post game.

Coach McD post game - Under 1 http://www.denverbroncos.com/
He started out by saying they were out-coached, out-played, and out-toughed. Then, into the interview, he questioned "mental toughness"

BORDERLINE
10-10-2010, 07:37 PM
Coach McD admitted today that he was out coached - it was one of the first things he said in his post game.

Coach McD post game - Under 1 http://www.denverbroncos.com/
He started out by saying they were out-coached, out-played, and out-toughed. Then, into the interview, he questioned "mental toughness"

I know he said it...but is his ego too big to accepted???...you can say all the right things but change nothing...this running scheme ain't working...if he is a genious, time to show it...the jets should be a great test...it should speak volumes if we are able to compete...I hope for the best

Tned
10-10-2010, 07:39 PM
BTW, why would you star Hochstein over Beadles? Is Beadles actually lees effective than Russ?

Clearly he is. Beadles first was beat out by Daniels, an undrafted, one year out of football, two year practice squad guy. Then, when Daniels loses his job, they turn to Hochstein. Clearly, McD and the coaching staff believes Beadles isn't up to the task yet. Doesn't mean he won't be in time. Plenty of offensive linemen take a few years to develop.

Denver Native (Carol)
10-10-2010, 07:40 PM
I know he said it...but is his ego too big to accepted???...you can say all the right things but change nothing...this running scheme ain't working...if he is a genious, time to show it...the jets should be a great test...it should speak volumes if we are able to compete...I hope for the best

First off - I don't think he has an ego, and if he did, why would he come out in front of the press and state "out-coached"? The players need to fix the running game - i.e. the line needs to block, create holes, and the runners need to find those holes.

Tned
10-10-2010, 07:49 PM
First off - I don't think he has an ego, and if he did, why would he come out in front of the press and state "out-coached"? The players need to fix the running game - i.e. the line needs to block, create holes, and the runners need to find those holes.

You don't think he has an ego???? :confused:

Holy cow, I think even the biggest McDaniels supports and/or apologists on here will admit he has a HUGE ego. It doesn't make him a bad coach. Lot's of people that are great at their job have big egos (great surgeons for instance).

Whether or not McDaniels will ultimately be a great head coach is yet to be written. Whether or not McDaniels has a huge ego.... Well, in the words of Al Gore, the debate is over....

NightTrainLayne
10-10-2010, 07:55 PM
Every NFL HC has an ego. The best ones usually have huge egos.

gobroncsnv
10-10-2010, 07:58 PM
and the science is settled...

No, I don't think there's a coach in the LEAGUE who would be accused of being of small ego... You HAVE to believe in yourself, your philosophy, and all the etc's, because so much of coaching is SELLING... if you don't buy it yourself, darn sure nobody else is going to...

Denver Native (Carol)
10-10-2010, 08:00 PM
Let me clarify - everyone has an ego - in my opinion, Coach McD does not let his get out of control in regards to him being the Broncos head coach. A head coach wanting the players he wants, etc., does not indicate excessive ego. Any boss in any organization wants the workers they want under him/her. What is the difference?

Tned
10-10-2010, 08:01 PM
Every NFL HC has an ego. The best ones usually have huge egos.

Agreed.

Northman
10-10-2010, 08:09 PM
Im starting to think that Tned might be right about one of his statements awhile back. And that is, McD may not succeed here because (from what i believe) the timetable will not suit him. But down the road McD may become a very good coach because he will have learned from working in Denver. I just dont think Bowlen will have that much patience to wait that long. It is one thing if you were like Kubes and having to totally build something (although i think Kubes may be done after this year unless they make the playoffs) as compared to tearing a system down alltogether when at times other teams have made quick turnarounds. Lets just hope that if McD is going to be great that he can start getting this team where it needs to be REAL soon.

Tned
10-10-2010, 08:19 PM
Im starting to think that Tned might be right about one of his statements awhile back. And that is, McD may not succeed here because (from what i believe) the timetable will not suit him. But down the road McD may become a very good coach because he will have learned from working in Denver. I just dont think Bowlen will have that much patience to wait that long. It is one thing if you were like Kubes and having to totally build something (although i think Kubes may be done after this year unless they make the playoffs) as compared to tearing a system down alltogether when at times other teams have made quick turnarounds. Lets just hope that if McD is going to be great that he can start getting this team where it needs to be REAL soon.

Yea, I've seen nothing yet to convince me that McDaniels won't be a good NFL head coach. However, I still fear that may happen with another team. Typically a head coach has 2-3 years to turn a team around, and that's usually when they take over a 4-5 win type team, not a .500 type team.

Obviously, there is a lot of disagreement about how good or bad the team that he took over was, but what it wasn't a .250 team. It was a team that was in the running every year. Even in '08 it took a historical collapse at the end of the season to miss the playoffs. Obviously, that was bad and was the last nail in Shanahan's coffin, but the point is that McDaniels didn't take over a 4 win team that was battling for the number one pick in the NFL in the following year's draft.

Whether the approach was right or wrong, what matters is whether or not Pat Bowlen is going to give him the time to rebuild a team that many didn't think needed to be rebuilt.

I hope he either gets the ship righted quickly, or Bowlen gives him some extra time, because even though I haven't agreed with all of his moves, I still believe he will ultimately be a good, winning head coach.

BORDERLINE
10-10-2010, 08:24 PM
Yea, I've seen nothing yet to convince me that McDaniels won't be a good NFL head coach. However, I still fear that may happen with another team. Typically a head coach has 2-3 years to turn a team around, and that's usually when they take over a 4-5 win type team, not a .500 type team.

Obviously, there is a lot of disagreement about how good or bad the team that he took over was, but what it wasn't a .250 team. It was a team that was in the running every year. Even in '08 it took a historical collapse at the end of the season to miss the playoffs. Obviously, that was bad and was the last nail in Shanahan's coffin, but the point is that McDaniels didn't take over a 4 win team that was battling for the number one pick in the NFL in the following year's draft.

Whether the approach was right or wrong, what matters is whether or not Pat Bowlen is going to give him the time to rebuild a team that many didn't think needed to be rebuilt.

I hope he either gets the ship righted quickly, or Bowlen gives him some extra time, because even though I haven't agreed with all of his moves, I still believe he will ultimately be a good, winning head coach.
i get you , but is everyone gonna be as patient??? you need to win now.....playoffs or bust in alot of peoples eyes

Dreadnought
10-10-2010, 08:27 PM
Every NFL HC has an ego. The best ones usually have huge egos.

Frank Kush

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/coaches/KushFr0.htm

Les Steckel

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/min/1984.htm

Both had massive ego's with tough guy mentalities - absolute embarrassing disasters as HC's. Not a fair direct comparison (McD is clearly better than those idiots were already) but I rarely equate huge egos with success. Huge ego usually means you eventually come to "my plan was perfect; if only it was executed properly." Or My system cannot be improved upon. I have little or nothing to learn, save that my subordinates don't cut the mustard." In other words the battle cries of the Loser back from time immemorial.

Northman
10-10-2010, 08:28 PM
i get you , but is everyone gonna be as patient??? you need to win now.....playoffs or bust in alot of peoples eyes

For me as a fan i pretty much accepted 3 years to get us to a contender. However, if we dont improve over an 8-8 record this year i could POSSIBLY see him getting yanked. Doubtful, but possible depending on what Bowlen is expecting and how we are performing on the field. McD made a statement today that the players seemed to "pack it in" depending on how you want to look at it. We've seen that kind of behavior before (namely the 30 point loss at home a few years ago to SD). Im one of those who believes we were already on the right track with the offense and felt that we should already be in the playoffs at this point. I truly believe that ANY good coach could of used the talent we had on this team when he took over. So yea, my expectations are short but who knows where Bowlen stands at this point.

Tned
10-10-2010, 08:29 PM
i get you , but is everyone gonna be as patient??? you need to win now.....playoffs or bust in alot of peoples eyes

Bowlen is really the only one that matters. Of course, he has to take into account the fan base, but it's really whether or not he believes McDaniels will ultimately build something special in Denver.

TheDave
10-10-2010, 08:34 PM
For me the biggest disapointment has been McD inability (so far) to draft and/or acquire talent on the offensive line.

Thankfully, shanahan left us with 3 of the players but so far 4 draft picks and a few FA signings have been disasters for the other 2 positions on the line.

Mike
10-10-2010, 09:04 PM
For me the biggest disapointment has been McD inability (so far) to draft and/or acquire talent on the offensive line.

Thankfully, shanahan left us with 3 of the players but so far 4 draft picks and a few FA signings have been disasters for the other 2 positions on the line.

How dare those rookies not come in and dominate. :rolleyes:

AgentOrange
10-10-2010, 09:08 PM
My first issue with McD is that he doesn't have the cred to match the size of his ego. He came from a team with a head coach that can call the shots because of a record of success. McD acts like he has that record, but can't duplicate it to save his ass.

Ego? Think Hillis. And Nolan.

No, I don't want Denver to end up in the same tar pit with teams that change coaches as often as they change jock straps but come ON! McD took a talented team on the edge of success, gutted it by removing almost all of our hallmark players, guys we hoped would be around for years, and now has a losing record to show for it.

While this team shows flashes of brilliance (Orton's on *fire*), in general they're sloppy, ill-coached and one-dimensional. The play calling and clock management in particular are, at times, abysmal.

I think North hit the nail on the head; McD may someday be an excellent HC, but it won't happen in Denver. He needs to pay his dues, learn his lessons, take his lumps until he's able to lose the ego and see what's really going on around him. By the time that happens he'll be long gone from the Broncos.

My biggest concern is who will be available that would be a better fit and able to rebuild the disjointed mess left by McD.

BORDERLINE
10-10-2010, 09:15 PM
Bowlen is really the only one that matters. Of course, he has to take into account the fan base, but it's really whether or not he believes McDaniels will ultimately build something special in Denver.

yes, he makes the calls, but us fans demand a contender , a winner.. I reserve hope that McD will bring us to that. I Love his fire but do the player respond???...8-8 will not cut it ...we are not detroit , oakland , st.louis

spikerman
10-10-2010, 09:18 PM
...we are not detroit , oakland , st.louis
Unfortunately, Denver is a lot closer to them now than to being elite.

TheDave
10-10-2010, 09:19 PM
How dare those rookies not come in and dominate. :rolleyes:

When you have the worst run blocking line in Denver Broncos history, Making the starting line-up doesn't recquire someone to be "dominating"

It just means they have to be better than the a street FA in Stanley Daniels and a NE cast off who is 9 months removed from a blown knee. Unfortunately, our 2nd round pick in Beadles isn't good enough to replace either.

and I believe we cut both of our interior draft picks from last year.

Like I said thankfully shanny left us 3 of 5

silkamilkamonico
10-10-2010, 09:31 PM
When you have the worst run blocking line in Denver Broncos history, Making the starting line-up doesn't recquire someone to be "dominating"

It just means they have to be better than the a street FA in Stanley Daniels and a NE cast off who is 9 months removed from a blown knee. Unfortunately, our 2nd round pick in Beadles isn't good enough to replace either.

and I believe we cut both of our interior draft picks from last year.

Like I said thankfully shanny left us 3 of 5

I'm not sure how much you know about the NFL rookie transition, but the C position is one of the hardest ppositions in the NFL for a rookie to come in and transition too.

As far as Beedles goes, the guy is 4 preseason games and 5 regular season games into his career, and he has already learned 3 different positions along the oline due to injuries.

Clady/Harris/Kupar are all coming back from major or significant injuries and have yet played to form.

The oline has been less than stellar and have underachieved in the run game, but even though they do tend to break down in the passing game, they are pass blocking 40+ times a game and doing a pretty good job over all.

IMHO Denver's oline is the most inexperienced/disjointed unit in the NFL. There's some kind of issue whether it's injury/experience at every starter along the oline.

TheDave
10-10-2010, 09:43 PM
I'm not sure how much you know about the NFL rookie transition, but the C position is one of the hardest ppositions in the NFL for a rookie to come in and transition too.

As far as Beedles goes, the guy is 4 preseason games and 5 regular season games into his career, and he has already learned 3 different positions along the oline due to injuries.

Clady/Harris/Kupar are all coming back from major or significant injuries and have yet played to form.

The oline has been less than stellar and have underachieved in the run game, but even though they do tend to break down in the passing game, they are pass blocking 40+ times a game and doing a pretty good job over all.

IMHO Denver's oline is the most inexperienced/disjointed unit in the NFL. There's some kind of issue whether it's injury/experience at every starter along the oline.

Thats exactly why I'm not jumping on Walton and his hot and cold start. Unfortunately the transition for Guards is similiar to RB's (read: rookies usually can handle the transition).

Thats why the excuses for Beadles are not working IMO. At the very least he should be a superior option to the 2 journeymen that are currently taking the starting snaps at LG.

silkamilkamonico
10-10-2010, 10:01 PM
Thats exactly why I'm not jumping on Walton and his hot and cold start. Unfortunately the transition for Guards is similiar to RB's (read: rookies usually can handle the transition).

Thats why the excuses for Beadles are not working IMO. At the very least he should be a superior option to the 2 journeymen that are currently taking the starting snaps at LG.

The thing with Beedles is he hasn't even had the chance to work on becoming a starting G IMHO. He spent the entire preseason learning how to play LT to fill in for Clady. He then proceeded to learn how to play RT when Clady came back to fill in for Harris. It wasn't working there or Harris came back or whatever, so he was shuffled back to G.

Beedles probably isn't where the coaching staff would like him to be at this point, but IMHO the guy hasn't even be given a chance. Not only has he learned how to transition to the speed of the NFL game, but he's been thrown into 3 different positions, all which require different technique and angles.

That's how disjointed our oline has been since preseason with injuries. We have a rookie having to play a utility role and hasn't even been given a chance to acclimate himself to one position, and progress with it.

KCL
10-10-2010, 10:37 PM
North thanks for the props for the Chiefs!!! I am thankful Haley isn't calling the plays any more.KC did play Indy tough today...they sure as hell didn't whip us like some thought they would.

I wasn't too thrilled with some of the play calling today but my opinion doesn't mean anything.Bowe had a couple of dropped passes...one was in the EZ...It was a sure TD...:tsk:

Hali was in Manning's face all afternoon...damn he was being held half the time.Indy did get by with some holding but it's part of the game I guess.

Maybe we can swap some players...;)

Northman
10-10-2010, 10:41 PM
Maybe we can swap some players...;)

Sure, we will give you Brady Quinn for Jamal Charles. Then, we will give you Wink for Crennel. :D

KCL
10-10-2010, 10:45 PM
Sure, we will give you Brady Quinn for Jamal Charles. Then, we will give you Wink for Crennel. :D

Is that it...just Charles...I'll see what I can do...:D

Tned
10-10-2010, 11:03 PM
When you have the worst run blocking line in Denver Broncos history, Making the starting line-up doesn't recquire someone to be "dominating"

It just means they have to be better than the a street FA in Stanley Daniels and a NE cast off who is 9 months removed from a blown knee. Unfortunately, our 2nd round pick in Beadles isn't good enough to replace either.

and I believe we cut both of our interior draft picks from last year.

Like I said thankfully shanny left us 3 of 5

Wow, the Dave gracing the pages of BroncosForums two weeks in a row... ;)

J/k Good points on the line. I must admit I wasn't happy seeing Daniels beat out Beadles when I saw that Daniels was an undrafted FA, who didn't even stick with a team his first year and was out of football his first year, then spent the next two years on practice squads. The Broncos being like his fourth team, and he beats out the rookie handed the LG spot out of camp.

I know we have injuries, but in '08, Clady led the league in runs to his side, and Harris was 2nd or 3rd in the league in runs behind him. The drop off is incredible.

Lonestar
10-10-2010, 11:04 PM
I'm not sure how much you know about the NFL rookie transition, but the C position is one of the hardest ppositions in the NFL for a rookie to come in and transition too.

As far as Beedles goes, the guy is 4 preseason games and 5 regular season games into his career, and he has already learned 3 different positions along the oline due to injuries.

Clady/Harris/Kupar are all coming back from major or significant injuries and have yet played to form.

The oline has been less than stellar and have underachieved in the run game, but even though they do tend to break down in the passing game, they are pass blocking 40+ times a game and doing a pretty good job over all.

IMHO Denver's oline is the most inexperienced/disjointed unit in the NFL. There's some kind of issue whether it's injury/experience at every starter along the oline.

ON top of that we had almost ZERO players behind those 3 players he spoke so highly of. we have all seen what one injury can do to you.

I saw on at least one run play Clady get his ass handed to him, with the defender he was supposed to block, make a tackle behind the LOS.

Could have been more, but that one was very clear and I was shocked when I saw it was Clady. Had always thought he was a stud at blocking for the run.

Lonestar
10-10-2010, 11:10 PM
Thats exactly why I'm not jumping on Walton and his hot and cold start. Unfortunately the transition for Guards is similiar to RB's (read: rookies usually can handle the transition).

Thats why the excuses for Beadles are not working IMO. At the very least he should be a superior option to the 2 journeymen that are currently taking the starting snaps at LG.

he was an OLT in college for most if not all of his All America Career.

SO far he has filled in for injured players at OLG, ORT, and ORG, in his brief career.

If You have not played on the OLINE (which I'm guessing you have not) you would know that there is a huge difference in the techique in playing OT and OG and then add to that even as much in left vs right sides of the OL.
I used to be an ORG, I can guarantee that I'd not been able to play at a decent level at OT. For him to have had to sub in for all of those spots I admire the hell out of him in his short time on the oline.

Tned
10-10-2010, 11:11 PM
The thing with Beedles is he hasn't even had the chance to work on becoming a starting G IMHO. He spent the entire preseason learning how to play LT to fill in for Clady. He then proceeded to learn how to play RT when Clady came back to fill in for Harris. It wasn't working there or Harris came back or whatever, so he was shuffled back to G.

Beedles probably isn't where the coaching staff would like him to be at this point, but IMHO the guy hasn't even be given a chance. Not only has he learned how to transition to the speed of the NFL game, but he's been thrown into 3 different positions, all which require different technique and angles.

That's how disjointed our oline has been since preseason with injuries. We have a rookie having to play a utility role and hasn't even been given a chance to acclimate himself to one position, and progress with it.

Hey Silk, have to clear up some things on Beadles. He was actually first working at LG and McDandiels handed him the LG job and Walton the C job out of camp. Beadles played the entire first two games at LG. Then, do to not performing well enough, he lost the spot to Daniels, who started the last two preseason games at LG. Beadles was then moved to RG to fill in for Harris.

Also, Batiste won the LT job to backup Clady in camp.

Beadles was given the LG job and couldn't hold off Daniels.

Broncos Mtnman
10-10-2010, 11:21 PM
Maybe we can swap some players...;)

How about a coach swap instead? Mickey for either Weiss or Crennel.

And we'll throw in "Wink" and Mickey's brother for free.

Deal?

GEM
10-10-2010, 11:27 PM
What I dont understand is, we can stop Chris Johnson one week and then turn around and let Ray Rice run all over us. Obviously the Ravens are a better team all around compared to the titans, but still... It just annoying to watch.

I about pulled all my hair out with all the penalties too... Im basically bald now.

I think some of the Ray Rice thing is that they didn't fear Young. They know that Flacco can air it out and so they didn't stick everyone in the box just to shut down the run. :shrugs:

KCL
10-10-2010, 11:36 PM
How about a coach swap instead? Mickey for either Weiss or Crennel.

And we'll throw in "Wink" and Mickey's brother for free.

Deal?

How about a QB swap...reunite Cassel with McD and we'll take Orton...:elefant:

TheDave
10-10-2010, 11:40 PM
ON top of that we had almost ZERO players behind those 3 players he spoke so highly of. we have all seen what one injury can do to you.

I saw on at least one run play Clady get his ass handed to him, with the defender he was supposed to block, make a tackle behind the LOS.

Could have been more, but that one was very clear and I was shocked when I saw it was Clady. Had always thought he was a stud at blocking for the run.


I honestly think Clady, Harris, and Kuper are all still hurt.

There was a play last week where Harris was trying to cutblock the back side DT. He was too slow coming out of his stance to even have a shot at his man. More to your point, Ive seen Clady beat several times on both inside and outside moves. In fairness to him I have no idea how much more he is responsible for because of the mess to his right.

Seriously, this line is such a historic mess I can't figure out where the lions share of the blame lies.

Injuries... Check
rookies... Check
Lack of talent... Che(stanley daniels)ck
coaching questions (sorry not a Clancy Baron fan)... Check

All I know is that if things do not improve significantly in the run game the losses will begin to pile up.

silkamilkamonico
10-10-2010, 11:46 PM
Hey Silk, have to clear up some things on Beadles. He was actually first working at LG and McDandiels handed him the LG job and Beadles the C job out of camp. Beadles played the entire first two games at LG. Then, do to not performing well enough, he lost the spot to Daniels, who started the last two preseason games at LG. Beadles was then moved to RG to fill in for Harris.

Also, Batiste won the LT job to backup Clady in camp.

Beadles was given the LG job and couldn't hold off Daniels.

Beadles was initially working at LT, especially in early TC/preseason. Batiste was moved to LT the majority of the time during early/mid preseason. (COrrection...Beadles and Batiste were leapfrogging each other, as Beadles started against Pittsburgh and Batiste was bumped for second team, but I think the important thing is Beadles is getting reps at a position that wouldn't be permanent). He has also played RT for Harris, and LG like you said. I don't think he played C I thought Walton had all along, but if Beadles did play C that's even worse.

I'm not making excuses for him. He has been a disappointment to a degree considering where he was drafted and what he was drafted for. But the guy has played all over the place. I can't imagine being an NFL rookie trying to find your place among men, and being shuffled all over the place. Whatever the reason, poor play, filling in, whatever...IMHO he might have been poor or underachieving early, but there hasn't been an oppurtunity for him (until now really) to settle at one position, get used to the NFL nuissances of it, and develop/progress. I think the number of similiar progressions is important for a rookie during his transition to the NFL.

silkamilkamonico
10-10-2010, 11:49 PM
All I know is that if things do not improve significantly in the run game the losses will begin to pile up.

I still think this will be a frustrating year, in a sense that Denver will win some games they probably shouldn't and lose games they probably shouldn't. Despite the holes in the team they are still capable. They jsut aren't well rounded.

There really are no "dominant" teams in the NFL right now (Baltimore is certainly in the upper echeleon), and so many good/solid teams across the NFL have glaring holes and weaknesses.

Tned
10-10-2010, 11:54 PM
Beadles was initially working at LT, especially in early TC/preseason. Batiste was moved to LT the majority of the time during early/mid preseason. He has also played RT for Harris, and LG like you said. I don't think he played C I thought Walton had all along, but if Beadles did play C that's even worse.

I'm not making excuses for him. He has been a disappointment to a degree considering where he was drafted and what he was drafted for. But the guy has played all over the place. I can't imagine being an NFL rookie trying to find your place among men, and being shuffled all over the place. Whatever the reason, poor play, filling in, whatever...IMHO he might have been poor or underachieving early, but there hasn't been an oppurtunity for him (until now really) to settle at one position, get used to the NFL nuissances of it, and develop/progress. I think the number of similiar progressions is important for a rookie during his transition to the NFL.

That was a typo about C. I was trying to say that when the preseason games started, Beadles was given the LG job and Walton the C job. As a result, they both played the entire first two games at that position, at which point Beadles lost the starting LG job to Daniels.

I know guys like to make excuses about how he moved around and such, but the fact is that when the first depth chart was released, he was listed as the starter at LG and that's the position he was at when the preseason started, and he failed to keep the job.

silkamilkamonico
10-10-2010, 11:56 PM
That was a typo about C. I was trying to say that when the preseason games started, Beadles was given the LG job and Walton the C job. As a result, they both played the entire first two games at that position, at which point Beadles lost the starting LG job to Daniels.

I know guys like to make excuses about how he moved around and such, but the fact is that when the first depth chart was released, he was listed as the starter at LG and that's the position he was at when the preseason started, and he failed to keep the job.

You were right, Batiste was bumped to the second team against Pittsburgh and Beadles started at LT. I still firmly believe getting reps at 3 different positions over the course of a month or so certainly didn't do him any favors.

Tned
10-11-2010, 12:06 AM
You were right, Batiste was bumped to the second team against Pittsburgh and Beadles started at LT. I still firmly believe getting reps at 3 different positions over the course of a month or so certainly didn't do him any favors.

I'm sure it didn't, but he wouldn't have been playing LT and RT if he was able to play LG, which is the position that was handed to him. He started working at LG in the OTA's/Minicamps and continued their in training camp and started the preseason as the starting LG. As I said, he and Walton were made the starters and allowed to play the entire first two games. It was their positions to lose. Walton held on to the center job, Beadles wasn't able to.

I don't dislike Beadles. I'm not bashing him. I just don't get why people keep concocting excuses for him. He worked in the offseason at LG. Was made the starting LG when preseason started. After two games, lost the job to someone nobody but his family had heard of (Daniels). It doesn't mean that in time Beadles won't be great and live up to his 2nd round pick. Or, turn into the ultimate utility guy that can play all five spots (when drafted, they talked about him possibly playing center).

However, for now, he got beat out by Daniels, who then lost his job to Hochstein. It is what it is.

Tned
10-11-2010, 12:12 AM
You were right, Batiste was bumped to the second team against Pittsburgh and Beadles started at LT. I still firmly believe getting reps at 3 different positions over the course of a month or so certainly didn't do him any favors.

Here you go, since so many people are into this "they moved him all over the place, he can't be expected to just jump into LG".

This was a DP article at the start of training camp. As I said in an earlier post, there are numerous reports from OTA's/Mini-camps about them working him at LG, and here is an article from Aug 1st, talking about him being the starting LG as training camp started.


The rookies who will have the greatest impact on the 2010 Broncos will be two hefty kids: Zane Beadles and J.D. Walton.

Thomas and Tebow are first-round picks, special players for the future. Beadles and Walton were drafted in the second and third rounds, respectively. They are players for the here and now.

As training camp commences, Beadles will get the first shot to start at left guard, Walton at center.

Can it be done?

"We'll be eager to see that," Broncos coach Josh McDaniels said. "There have been plenty of good players who can contribute and play early on the offensive line as a rookie, and we may or may not have that right away, but I know that there are a lot of guys who will be competing for that."

McDaniels is ready to go forward with Beadles and Walton in part because he knows it can be done. He was New England's quarterbacks coach in 2005 when the Patriots started rookies Logan Mankins at left guard and Nick Kaczur at right tackle. The Patriots won a playoff game that year before Champ Bailey stepped in front of a Tom Brady pass in the end zone.


Read more: Klis: Beadles, Walton are the real ones to watch - The Denver Post http://www.denverpost.com/sports/ci_15650359#ixzz121XlVKOI

So, he worked at LG in the offseason, started training camp at LG, started the first two preseason games at LG (and was allowed to play the entire game to get experience).

I don't think "moving him around" was the problem.

Tned, voted most likely to win an argument two years in a row. Why? Because he has the facts on his side.... ;)

Bosco
10-11-2010, 12:22 AM
The lack of any kind of running game that keeps opposing teams alert is killing this team.

That's exactly it. It's causing a domino effect throughout the team and it's the result of some shockingly bad offensive line play. Not being able run the ball is killing us in the T.O.P battle and that results in our defense...which let's admit, was going blow for blow with a very physical offense...in wearing down and not being able to finish out games.

The good news is that we get the Jets at home and then it's on to the cupcake part of the schedule where we can hopefully catch our stride again.

silkamilkamonico
10-11-2010, 01:49 AM
If Beadles couldn't cut it at LG right away in which he was drafted for, I'm not sure why they thought he would be capable to fill in at one of the T positions. Goes to show the lack of depth along the oline or more questionable moves from the coaching staff.

They had no business moving him around the oline IMHO. So he wasn't ready to start at LG from day 1, there are plenty of Pro Bowl LG's around the league who weren't. IMHO they should have kept him at LG, continued working with him, and found someone else to fill in the T positions who actually play T.

Who knows, if they would have done that, maybe he would have settled down by now and found a role with the starting unit. But we'll never know that cuz he's been too busy trying to adjust to LG, to LT, to RT, and now back to LG.

Elevation inc
10-11-2010, 04:16 AM
Thats how i saw it. Kyle looked like he was ready to get in a groove and McD kept forcing the run which was actually losing yardage. He didnt do Kyle any favors today.

meh we only ran like 13 times and 6 of those maroney pulled out a 4.5 YPC......today just was penalties and playcalling, and poor tackling.....

Tned
10-11-2010, 07:38 AM
If Beadles couldn't cut it at LG right away in which he was drafted for, I'm not sure why they thought he would be capable to fill in at one of the T positions. Goes to show the lack of depth along the oline or more questionable moves from the coaching staff.

They had no business moving him around the oline IMHO. So he wasn't ready to start at LG from day 1, there are plenty of Pro Bowl LG's around the league who weren't. IMHO they should have kept him at LG, continued working with him, and found someone else to fill in the T positions who actually play T.

Who knows, if they would have done that, maybe he would have settled down by now and found a role with the starting unit. But we'll never know that cuz he's been too busy trying to adjust to LG, to LT, to RT, and now back to LG.

I don't really get the intense defense of Beadles from so many. Is there fear that any admission that he has struggled will be seen as an indictment of McDaniels drafting? I really don't get it.

He had months at LG to get ready to play that spot, and then was handed the starting job when training camp started, and lost it halfway through the preseason games. It's really very simple.

I have stated multiple times that just because he lost the job this year, doesn't mean he won't still turn into a good player.

As to moving him to tackle. That was the position that he played most of his college career. I think he played guard his first year, and played LT his final three years. When he was drafted, McDaniels saw him as a player that could play C, guard or tackle. So, when he couldn't hold on to the LG position, they used him to fill in for injured RT Harris.

spikerman
10-11-2010, 07:41 AM
I don't really get the intense defense of Beadles from so many. Is there fear that any admission that he has struggled will be seen as an indictment of McDaniels drafting? I really don't get it.


In my opinion, you hit the nail on the head. On one end of the spectrum you have people who are probably overly critical of McDaniels (me included) and on the other end you have a group who appear to believe McDaniels is infallible and will defend any perceived criticism of him ferociously.

silkamilkamonico
10-11-2010, 12:31 PM
I don't really get the intense defense of Beadles from so many. Is there fear that any admission that he has struggled will be seen as an indictment of McDaniels drafting? I really don't get it.

He had months at LG to get ready to play that spot, and then was handed the starting job when training camp started, and lost it halfway through the preseason games. It's really very simple.

I have stated multiple times that just because he lost the job this year, doesn't mean he won't still turn into a good player.

As to moving him to tackle. That was the position that he played most of his college career. I think he played guard his first year, and played LT his final three years. When he was drafted, McDaniels saw him as a player that could play C, guard or tackle. So, when he couldn't hold on to the LG position, they used him to fill in for injured RT Harris.

It's not a defense, the guy has underachieved, and IMHO sucks at this point. nobody's "defending" on him. You're acting like an olinemen is a utility type player that can be plugged in anywhere. Ryan Harris was a G in college who was drafted to play T. He didn't get beat out by the starting T's and then was shuffled to G.

As far as McDaniels drafting him to play T, G, or C, there's the problem right there. NFL olinemen are "utility" players who can just fill in wherever. They're skill specific positions like anywhere else.

I guess if I can't "defend" him per say with him shuffling around, I have to acknowledge that it was a terrible draft pick, and chalk G up with Dline as desperate needs that Denver is going to have to address as early as possible in the draft next year.

And it's not a failure of acknowledging McDaniels poort drafting. That speaks for itself. What argument I don't get it, "oh, this rookie was drafted to start right away, has been disappointing, and will never get better. Let's just forget him as a priority."

I Eat Staples
10-11-2010, 12:37 PM
Only thing I can figure is they are so eager to pad their stats they forget to "Stay Home".

You try staying home when you see Maroney dancing around at half a mile per hour.

Someone mentioned KC, so let me just add that their defense is the real deal, but their offense is beyond terrible. Matt Cassell is the worst starting QB in the NFL. They put up 9 points against a bad Colts defense. Their running game is good, but they won't be going anywhere without a QB.

NightTrainLayne
10-11-2010, 12:55 PM
Frank Kush

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/coaches/KushFr0.htm

Les Steckel

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/min/1984.htm

Both had massive ego's with tough guy mentalities - absolute embarrassing disasters as HC's. Not a fair direct comparison (McD is clearly better than those idiots were already) but I rarely equate huge egos with success. Huge ego usually means you eventually come to "my plan was perfect; if only it was executed properly." Or My system cannot be improved upon. I have little or nothing to learn, save that my subordinates don't cut the mustard." In other words the battle cries of the Loser back from time immemorial.

I wasn't actually trying to make the argument that a huge ego meant success would surely follow. Just stating a fact that NFL HC's have huge egos.

You are correct that the huge ego comes with huge pitfalls. Pitfalls that even the likes of Bill Parcells and Mike Shanahan had to come to grips with after winning Super Bowls. . .Granted they won Super Bowls, but they do indeed have huge egos.

Tned
10-11-2010, 01:01 PM
It's not a defense, the guy has underachieved, and IMHO sucks at this point. nobody's "defending" on him. You're acting like an olinemen is a utility type player that can be plugged in anywhere. Ryan Harris was a G in college who was drafted to play T. He didn't get beat out by the starting T's and then was shuffled to G.

As far as McDaniels drafting him to play T, G, or C, there's the problem right there. NFL olinemen are "utility" players who can just fill in wherever. They're skill specific positions like anywhere else.

I guess if I can't "defend" him per say with him shuffling around, I have to acknowledge that it was a terrible draft pick, and chalk G up with Dline as desperate needs that Denver is going to have to address as early as possible in the draft next year.

And it's not a failure of acknowledging McDaniels poort drafting. That speaks for itself. What argument I don't get it, "oh, this rookie was drafted to start right away, has been disappointing, and will never get better. Let's just forget him as a priority."

I can't speak to others, all I can speak to is my posts, which is where I have said that just because he got beat out now, doesn't mean he won't turn into a good lineman. Plenty of linemen aren't capable of starting right away, but become good starters in time.

My only point was that it is not correct to use the "they moved him around" defense, because he spent the majority of the offseason, TC and preseason playing left guard, and it wasn't until he was beat out by Daniels that they then moved him to right tackle to fill in for Harris.

T.K.O.
10-11-2010, 01:36 PM
well there is one positive we can take away from this game....next week i will get to see the cheerleaders up close !:salute::D

http://i.ebayimg.com/07/!B0RuSjgEWk~$(KGrHqN,!hUEw43iTcrSBMZr)mbKF!~~_12.J PG

Lonestar
10-11-2010, 01:39 PM
I can't speak to others, all I can speak to is my posts, which is where I have said that just because he got beat out now, doesn't mean he won't turn into a good lineman. Plenty of linemen aren't capable of starting right away, but become good starters in time.

My only point was that it is not correct to use the "they moved him around" defense, because he spent the majority of the offseason, TC and preseason playing left guard, and it wasn't until he was beat out by Daniels that they then moved him to right tackle to fill in for Harris.

Was he really beat out or were they knowing that Harris would not be back to start the season and trying to get them both reps before it happened. I do not recall what happened for sure.

Tned
10-11-2010, 01:52 PM
Was he really beat out or were they knowing that Harris would not be back to start the season and trying to get them both reps before it happened. I do not recall what happened for sure.

I'm really blown away by how for a month now people have refused to accept the fact Beadles lost his job.

Hopefully, this will dispel all of the nonsense. He was installed at left guard in June. He was a LG through TC. He was the starting LG for the first two games, and Daniels beat him and took over the LG spot.


Minneapolis _ It appears Ryan Clady or no Ryan Clady, Stanley Daniels has replaced rookie Zane Beadles as the Broncos’ starting left guard.

Clady will start at left tackle against the Minnesota Vikings tonight, but Beadles will not be at left guard, as he has been since the mandatory minicamp in June.

Let’s call Daniels the surprise of preseason. He is a 6-foot-4, 320 pound product of the University of Washington who did not play in an NFL game in his first three seasons as a professional. Daniels, 26, was signed as an undrafted free agent of the St. Louis Rams in 2007, then spent time on the practice squads for the New York Jets in 2008 and Green Bay Packers last year.

Beadles versatility at both guard and tackle, meanwhile, figures to make him a backup on the active, game-day, 45-man roster.

http://blogs.denverpost.com/broncos/2010/09/02/daniels-starts-ahead-of-beadles/4915/