Other than the running game, where are we worse off

[BroncoWave]

...than at the end of Shanahan's tenure? I mean think about it, for all the doom and gloom we are either better off or improving across the board.

QB: Orton playing like an elite QB right now and has clearly been better than Cutler was at the end of his Denver tenure. He puts up the big yards like Cutler without as many mistakes.

RB: Yeah we are worse here, but I still haven't given up on Moreno like many seem to have.

WR: Top to bottom, we are clearly better. Give me a WR corps with 4 guys capable of putting up big games over a group that has one guy catch all of the passes any day of the week. Not to mention the fact that we have a couple of guys who look like future studs in Decker and Willis waiting in the wings.

TE: Maybe a little worse off but McD doesn't use the TE as much as Shanny so not a huge deal

OL: As far as level of play, maybe not on the same level as 08 but that is mainly due to the youth/injuries. Once Clady, Harris, and Kupes are 100% and the other 2 guys get some more experience this will be a very solid unit IMO.

DL: Pretty much a wash but it's definitely not worse than under Shanny.

OLB: With Ayers starting to become a very good player we are looking to be in great shape here. With he and Dumervil on the edges and DJ/Mario anchoring the middle we are in pretty good shape here for the future.

CB: Improved and with all the young talent this looks to be a position of strength in years to come.

S: Way improved and also has some promising young talent waiting in the wings.

I honestly think that all of the people bashing McD for blowing up the team and accusing him of getting rid of all our talent are going to be looking really stupid sooner rather than later. Our defense is getting better every week (with it's best player out for the season mind you) and our passing game is the best in the NFL so far.

I realize previous seasons have put many in a mood to forecast doom and gloom but I see good things coming and fast.

[Lonestar]

...than at the end of Shanahan's tenure? I mean think about it, for all the doom and gloom we are either better off or improving across the board.

QB: Orton playing like an elite QB right now and has clearly been better than Cutler was at the end of his Denver tenure. He puts up the big yards like Cutler without as many mistakes.

RB: Yeah we are worse here, but I still haven't given up on Moreno like many seem to have.

WR: Top to bottom, we are clearly better. Give me a WR corps with 4 guys capable of putting up big games over a group that has one guy catch all of the passes any day of the week. Not to mention the fact that we have a couple of guys who look like future studs in Decker and Willis waiting in the wings.

TE: Maybe a little worse off but McD doesn't use the TE as much as Shanny so not a huge deal

OL: As far as level of play, maybe not on the same level as 08 but that is mainly due to the youth/injuries. Once Clady, Harris, and Kupes are 100% and the other 2 guys get some more experience this will be a very solid unit IMO.

DL: Pretty much a wash but it's definitely not worse than under Shanny.

OLB: With Ayers starting to become a very good player we are looking to be in great shape here. With he and Dumervil on the edges and DJ/Mario anchoring the middle we are in pretty good shape here for the future.

CB: Improved and with all the young talent this looks to be a position of strength in years to come.

S: Way improved and also has some promising young talent waiting in the wings.

I honestly think that all of the people bashing McD for blowing up the team and accusing him of getting rid of all our talent are going to be looking really stupid sooner rather than later. Our defense is getting better every week (with it's best player out for the season mind you) and our passing game is the best in the NFL so far.

I realize previous seasons have put many in a mood to forecast doom and gloom but I see good things coming and fast.


Excellent post you beat me to it have been thinking about the same thing for a few days.

The OL in 08 was superb but mainly because all the starters players in every game with very little if any rest for them in any game.

Consistency plus all that was a rookie new to the team that year was Clady the others had been around in the league for a long time. IIRC Weigman IIRC stepped in for Nails when he went down very little if any drop off there.

That is a huge difference than what we have going there this year so far.

We do have a few spots to worry about with NT, DE, maybe safety and ILB spots to improve on OR get depth for the future.

[atwater27]

I honestly think that all of the people bashing McD for blowing up the team and accusing him of getting rid of all our talent are going to be looking really stupid sooner rather than later.

Most of your post is right on and I would have saluted it if not for this gem....

Just think how much BETTER we could be right now if we had not wasted time, picks and free agency signings on offense, and just funneled most of our energy into the D. That's my point. When you take over a team, you don't take a strength and scrap it to make it YOUR PERSONAL strength. You focus on improving the crappy unit, which was our defense.

[sneakers]

Too early to tell....some guys I think just need more experience.

:noidea:

[BroncoWave]

Most of your post is right on and I would have saluted it if not for this gem....

Just think how much BETTER we could be right now if we had not wasted time, picks and free agency signings on offense, and just funneled most of our energy into the D. That's my point. When you take over a team, you don't take a strength and scrap it to make it YOUR PERSONAL strength. You focus on improving the crappy unit, which was our defense.

He had his reasons for getting rid of those players on offense that he did, and that argument has been hashed, rehashed, and rehashed some more and I don't feel like having that argument again. The point is, the players he has brought in to replace those guys have given us an elite passing game and the #4 total offense in the NFL. Regardless if how you liked how he got us there, he still got us there. Just think of how deadly this offense is going to be when we do get a solid running game.

[Northman]

QB: Orton playing like an elite QB right now and has clearly been better than Cutler was at the end of his Denver tenure. He puts up the big yards like Cutler without as many mistakes.

Indeed, Kyle has played very well but the redzone woes are still prevelant and QB is part of that.


RB: Yeah we are worse here, but I still haven't given up on Moreno like many seem to have.

Moreno isnt a downhill runner so even if he is healthy we have a problem at RB. Needs to be addressed and fixed in the long run if this team is going to be a playoff/championship team.


WR: Top to bottom, we are clearly better. Give me a WR corps with 4 guys capable of putting up big games over a group that has one guy catch all of the passes any day of the week. Not to mention the fact that we have a couple of guys who look like future studs in Decker and Willis waiting in the wings.

Dont know if we are better, but this is where Kyle exceeds over Jay and that is that he can find various WR's at any given time and doesnt (most o the time) zone in on one particular player.


TE: Maybe a little worse off but McD doesn't use the TE as much as Shanny so not a huge deal

TE's are very valuable around the goalline and i think that McD should utilize them more. Graham isnt bad and should be used more than he is. If you look at what Hernandez does for New England he is a huge contributor to that very same offense.


OL: As far as level of play, maybe not on the same level as 08 but that is mainly due to the youth/injuries. Once Clady, Harris, and Kupes are 100% and the other 2 guys get some more experience this will be a very solid unit IMO.

Agreed. They only need time.


DL: Pretty much a wash but it's definitely not worse than under Shanny.

Slightly improved, still needs to be addressed though.


OLB: With Ayers starting to become a very good player we are looking to be in great shape here. With he and Dumervil on the edges and DJ/Mario anchoring the middle we are in pretty good shape here for the future.

Ayers and Doom are the future and im happy about it.


CB: Improved and with all the young talent this looks to be a position of strength in years to come.

Very happy.


S: Way improved and also has some promising young talent waiting in the wings.

Aside from Dawkins its a wait and see. We tend to see glimpses of the talent but wont know for sure until the big dog is gone.


I honestly think that all of the people bashing McD for blowing up the team and accusing him of getting rid of all our talent

Well, he did get rid of talent. There's no question about that. The reasons behind vary but he did indeed get rid of talent.


are going to be looking really stupid sooner rather than later. Our defense is getting better every week (with it's best player out for the season mind you) and our passing game is the best in the NFL so far.

Our defense looked great at the begining of last year too. Im sure i dont have to remind you of that fact. Offensively, the numbers are beautiful but the points and redzone problems are not. So technically, its a wash right now in terms of how the offense is. Stats, yards, etc dont mean anything if you cant win the games. Last year, we started 6-0. This year we are 2-2. While its way to early to throw in the towel its also WAY to early to predict success. Success is winning ballgames and winning the division just for starters.


I realize previous seasons have put many in a mood to forecast doom and gloom but I see good things coming and fast.

Certainly an optimistic look. Im just going to hold tight and see how it goes before predicting it a success. Still too many questions right now.

[BroncoWave]

FWIW, we are #11 in scoring offense right now and that's with such a low red zone rate. Imagine where that rank will go if we figure it out inside the red zone.

[Northman]

FWIW, we are #11 in scoring offense right now and that's with such a low red zone rate. Imagine where that rank will go if we figure it out inside the red zone.

To be fair, i was kind of saying that in 08' and 09' too.

[shank]

i'm starting to understand what that town hall thread is about. there are no more real discussions on these boards, they are just arguments about intended meanings and rhetoric.

[broncobryce]

Baileythebest rules! And I'm drunk
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[shank]

Baileythebest rules! And I'm drunk
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anything ending with 'and i'm drunk' deserves lots of high fives.



and i'm drunk.

[Elevation inc]

Potential for a good discussion thread:

IS NOW RUINED!!!!! by a few posters with extra agendas and the unwillingness to remove personal issues from football issues be it snide remarks, underlying implications of sides, and just plain attitude

this folks is why the town hall thread was created....lets clean it up folks we all want the same thing and thats to win......

We can be all be happy and/or critical at the same time without getting personal, that is a viable option and probally alot less stressful

[Joel]

OL: As far as level of play, maybe not on the same level as 08 but that is mainly due to the youth/injuries. Once Clady, Harris, and Kupes are 100% and the other 2 guys get some more experience this will be a very solid unit IMO.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Clady, Harris and Kuper (as well as Myers, who's starting for Kubiak) were all here before Shanny left.

CB: Improved and with all the young talent this looks to be a position of strength in years to come.
I disagree. With Champ (also a Shanny acquisition) on one side and both D-Will and Foxworth on the other I think we had VERY good corners; the only problem was that the latter two were very young and had some learning to do. You can't blame any coach for the tragedy that befell D-Will, but more than once since he left I've seen Foxworth make a great play and thought, Man, I wish we still had him. But we all knew he wanted to start and wasn't going to be happy with 5-10 snaps/game at nickel when he considers himself an elite player, so when we head hunted Dre Bly from the Lions everyone knew what would happen. Flash forward a few years and Foxworth is starting for one of the elite defenses; Dre Bly is waiting on a call. After all the horse trading (so to speak) and drafting, we're right back where we were: A HoF CB in Champ and a couple talented but young players on the other side; the only difference is Champ's older now.

I honestly think that all of the people bashing McD for blowing up the team and accusing him of getting rid of all our talent are going to be looking really stupid sooner rather than later. Our defense is getting better every week (with it's best player out for the season mind you) and our passing game is the best in the NFL so far.

I realize previous seasons have put many in a mood to forecast doom and gloom but I see good things coming and fast.
Right now I think it's a wash, and the record indicates that; we were a .500 team when Shanny left and we've done no better since. The defense is MUCH improved; the offense is much deteriorated. The question is how much credit you think the Pats former offensive coordinator should get for fixing the D, and how much blame you think he deserves for the offense falling apart after he cleaned house. I don't know how to break this to you, Josh, but however tight you and Belichick are he's not gonna trade you Tom Brady for three box tops and a pog to be named later.

I'll say this much for McDaniels (and, ultimately, against Shanny: ) We run a 3-4 now, which is what the current incarnation of the NFL, with its quick short passing to TEs and RBs and de-emphasis on bruising running, needs, and I have to think that was the head coaches call; he just went out and got a DC who could make it work, and didn't lacking the personnel at the time stop him from doing what had to be done sooner or later. I've loved Ebenezer Ekuban since he was a Cowboy, but watching him try to cover LaDainian Tomlinson downfield was painful, especially when it resulted in a 40 yard TD. I really think that paralyzed us for a while, that Shanny knew we needed a 3-4, too, but our D was so hot and cold he was afraid to go after the people we needed for the 3-4 because they didn't work in his version of a 4-3, so we were stuck in the middle of the road. When you're in the middle of the road you tend to get run over a lot; our front four certainly did.

I like to think I'm a fair guy, more fair than most fans and GMs, in fact. When a new coach comes in he spends several years trying to run his team with his predecessors personnel, and that's going to look pretty ugly at first unless they have very similar philosophies (as a side note, I also think GOOD coaches know how to design a team around its strengths, not force it to play the only way he knows despite not being built for it; new coaches have to balance this present tense goal with the other long term one, while keeping the fans and press off their necks, and it isn't easy.) Thus my feeling is a new coach should be given the following "grace periods: "

2 years for a position coach,
3 years for a coordinator,
4 years for a head coach.

That's at a minimum. Until then they simply haven't had the draft picks, trades and free agent acquisitions to get what their scheme requires. In the modern NFL coaches rarely get that kind of opportunity, especially head coaches; unless you have a couple SB Rings already, you better hit the ground running and produce, because if you're lucky you'll have a year, MAYBE two, before anything and everything that goes wrong is your fault. The good news is Denver is one of the few places where it can still happen; Pat Bowlen isn't going to let the media and disgruntled fans run his team. So I'm willing to give McDaniels some more time and see what he does, even though I haven't liked most of his decisions to date (and even said on other message boards that we're toast until he's gone.) He has access to a lot of information I don't, and this isn't a hobby for him, it's his profession. That said, the clock is ticking, and if we're not in contention by the season after next I'm gonna start wondering if Wink can handle offensive play calling.

FWIW, we are #11 in scoring offense right now and that's with such a low red zone rate. Imagine where that rank will go if we figure it out inside the red zone.
You can't play that game, man. Google "Run 'N Shoot" if you need an explanation of why. Red zone scoring has to be fixed for us to succeed (unless we adopt MY fairly radical offensive philosophy) but high yardage production is not, in itself, a guarantee it will (or won't) be.

[BroncoWave]

Joel, as to your claim that the offense is "much deteriorated", are you serious? The 08 offense was #2 in yards and #16 in scoring IIRC. Last year we did fall off a bit (although if you expected anything differently with an entirely new offensive scheme the team had to learn then you should probably learn to lower your expectations) but this year we are now #4 in total offense and #11 in scoring. If you consider that "much deteriorated" then we have very different definitions of what that phrase means.

[MileHighCrew]

I hate the arguement. Now we are have to guess what Shanny would have done for the past 2 years. He would have Cutler covering his weaknesses and growing as a pro bowl QB. Marshall, still a beast. Hillis running the ball, Royal in his 3rd constructive year in the offence, unlike his year off last year.
Maybe he would have drafted Ayers or Orakpo? who knows. Would we have signed Dawkins, maybe he loved older FAs too.
I agree with Shanny that when he was fired he thought he was building something special here, hard to know for sure.
I think McD has done some very good things too, I love DT, some FA signings have been great. I love MOST of the draft picks too. But you cannot say this team wouldn't have grown under Shanny in the last 2 years.

[Joel]

Joel, as to your claim that the offense is "much deteriorated", are you serious? The 08 offense was #2 in yards and #16 in scoring IIRC. Last year we did fall off a bit (although if you expected anything differently with an entirely new offensive scheme the team had to learn then you should probably learn to lower your expectations) but this year we are now #4 in total offense and #11 in scoring. If you consider that "much deteriorated" then we have very different definitions of what that phrase means.
NFL.com says your memory is correct, so maybe it just seems that way to me. I don't think anyone would dispute the D is a lot better than in '08 also, but we're still a .500 team to this point, whether we talk about last year or the first four games of the season. If the D got a lot better and the record didn't change the only two places I can look are the offense and special teams, and while it's hard for me to remember when Denver was good at special teams I don't think it's gone THAT far down hill in two years (I mean, how far did it have to go?) Although, and this is obviously no more than my opinion, I think if you give the '08 team four shots from the 2 against a soft (ESPECIALLY against the run) Indy D, it scores a TD. I admit I've been a tad too busy to catch a lot of games the past couple years, but last season it seemed like the D played hard and the offense left a lot of games on the field, while in '08 the reverse seemed true. I feel like that Simpsons where Lisa goes bad:

"We always have one good kid and one bad kid; why can't they BOTH be good?"

"We have THREE kids, Homer. "

Of course that brings me back to special teams, and I try not to think about that. :tongue:

I'm still willing to wait and see; as you say, it's hard to blame a first year coach if his team falls flat, because unless Tony Dungy builds him a HoF D first that's probably going to happen to most first year coaches. Likewise, to borrow a line from one of my favorite books, predicting a whole season based on the first four games is like deciding the World Series based on how flat they sing the National Anthem. I'm no more satisfied than anyone with the running game right now, but the fact is racing downfield and then stalling in the red zone is a problem that predates McDaniels.

[Dreadnought]

Potential for a good discussion thread:

IS NOW RUINED!!!!! by a few posters with extra agendas and the unwillingness to remove personal issues from football issues be it snide remarks, underlying implications of sides, and just plain attitude

this folks is why the town hall thread was created....lets clean it up folks we all want the same thing and thats to win......

We can be all be happy and/or critical at the same time without getting personal, that is a viable option and probally alot less stressful

Well, consider the thread reset. I got to waste some of my time this AM cleaning up the thread, but it seems back on track now

[TXBRONC]

Our pass rush is worse off. NB: The running game McDaniels has to take responsibility for but the pass rush is out of control.
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[rcsodak]

Where in the hell did I say that people who don't agree with me are stupid? Is that seriously how you interpreted that post?

I said McD will make those who doubted him LOOK stupid IF he leads this team to success. By the same token, he will make those like me look very stupid if he fails miserably. That is just a fact. Once again, I fail to see where I'm insulting people.

You could not be more wrong about my intentions with this thread. Not the first time though. Maybe if you quit turning every thread you post in into a pissing match things wouldn't be so bad around here.
HI5
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[rcsodak]

I hate the arguement. Now we are have to guess what Shanny would have done for the past 2 years. He would have Cutler covering his weaknesses and growing as a pro bowl QB. Marshall, still a beast. Hillis running the ball, Royal in his 3rd constructive year in the offence, unlike his year off last year.
Maybe he would have drafted Ayers or Orakpo? who knows. Would we have signed Dawkins, maybe he loved older FAs too. I agree with Shanny that when he was fired he thought he was building something special here, hard to know for sure. I think McD has done some very good things too, I love DT, some FA signings have been great. I love MOST of the draft picks too. But you cannot say this team wouldn't have grown under Shanny in the last 2 years.
24-24 over his last 3yrs says otherwise. He dumped a winning qb (reg/playoffs) for a hotheaded, non-winning qb. They say screwing up with a high1st rd qb can set a franchise back for years. Guess proof is in the pudding.
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[Ravage!!!]

I think the question is pretty pre-mature. McD has been here 1 season and 4 games. You want to compare that to a decade of seasons, or just the last couple years?

I personally think we are lacking in top offensive talent, if I were to say something else we were missing from this team to the last. If you don't think it matters, then we'll have to simply disagree. Putting up BIG numbers in the passing game while throwing the ball 50 times (per game) isn't really impressive. Any team SHOULD put up big numbers in the passing game if they are throwing the ball that many times. But we aren't scoring TDs. So thats where I think the loss, or lack there of, is a big deal.

[Ravage!!!]

I hate the arguement. Now we are have to guess what Shanny would have done for the past 2 years. He would have Cutler covering his weaknesses and growing as a pro bowl QB. Marshall, still a beast. Hillis running the ball, Royal in his 3rd constructive year in the offence, unlike his year off last year.
Maybe he would have drafted Ayers or Orakpo? who knows. Would we have signed Dawkins, maybe he loved older FAs too.
I agree with Shanny that when he was fired he thought he was building something special here, hard to know for sure.
I think McD has done some very good things too, I love DT, some FA signings have been great. I love MOST of the draft picks too. But you cannot say this team wouldn't have grown under Shanny in the last 2 years.

Great post. Everything is completely speculative. When Shanahan left, we did have one of the youngest offensive units that was filled with playmakers. We don't know what would have happened. We do know that Shanahan is a brilliant offensive mind that has had success when he has the pieces. We also know, that we probably would have a running game that we dont' know now, and I say that because he's always had a running game.

We could also pretty much be correct in assuming that Shanahan would not have drafted a RB in the first round. Never has, and I agree with his philosophy that its not needed.

Nice points :beer:

[BroncoWave]

Our pass rush is worse off. NB: The running game McDaniels has to take responsibility for but the pass rush is out of control.
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How is our pass rush worse off? Have you forgotten about a certain injury to a certain pass rusher? He's still on our roster and will still be here in the future so once that happens our pass rush will be every bit as good (and probably better because of Ayers) as it was under Shanahan.

[Ravage!!!]

Where in the hell did I say that people who don't agree with me are stupid? Is that seriously how you interpreted that post?

I said McD will make those who doubted him LOOK stupid IF he leads this team to success. By the same token, he will make those like me look very stupid if he fails miserably. That is just a fact. Once again, I fail to see where I'm insulting people.

You could not be more wrong about my intentions with this thread. Not the first time though. Maybe if you quit turning every thread you post in into a pissing match things wouldn't be so bad around here.

Doubting players or coaches doesn't make anyone look stupid. The problem is, in the long run, people want to come back and shove your 'doubts' in your face if you raise questions. As if people can't doubt, worry, have concerns or simply don't jump onto the idea of 'buying' everything that is done purely because that player is on the team, or he's the coach.

That goes teh other way around as well. People will throw it in people's faces if the player/coach doesn't do well and want to do that childish "I told you so." Thats what starts the crap.

A QB has a good game, we see more people on the boards... he has a bad game and we see the OTHER side on the boards. THe team is winning, we see the "I told you so's" about McD. The team is losing, we see the "I told you so's" from the other side.

Generally speaking, its easier to guess failure. More people fail in professional sports than they succeed, as well as coaches. But no one is "stupid" for failing to see everything as rosy, as well people shouldn't be looked as "stupid" if they choose to see things that way.

[Ravage!!!]

Our OL is worse. Our blocking scheme was supposed to change to power blocking scheme, but in the Indy game it was pointed out that we used strictly the ZBS. So it appears the coaches don't know what we are. We don't know what kind of scheme is working for our personnel.

We had the best OL in football when Shanahan left.

[Northman]

but more than once since he left I've seen Foxworth make a great play and thought, Man, I wish we still had him. But we all knew he wanted to start and wasn't going to be happy with 5-10 snaps/game at nickel when he considers himself an elite player, Unfortuantely, i have to take issue with this particular comment and i liked Foxworth initially having watched him at UMD. But, his cover skills are terrible at the pro level. I can assure you most Raven fans do not like him AT all and having watched plenty of games with Foxy here in Baltimore his nickname is "toast" as he gets burned far more than he makes plays. If Foxy was worth the grain of salt like you believe him to be either Denver or Atlanta would of retained him. The only reason Bmore got him is because they are desperate for DB help.

[BroncoWave]

Our OL is worse. Our blocking scheme was supposed to change to power blocking scheme, but in the Indy game it was pointed out that we used strictly the ZBS. So it appears the coaches don't know what we are. We don't know what kind of scheme is working for our personnel.

We had the best OL in football when Shanahan left.

I disagree. I think the overall talent level is higher. When you consider that the 3 veterans on our o-line are all coming off injuries and still aren't 100% and that the other 2 are rookies, there are obviously going to be problems. Once the rookies get some experience and the other 3 guys start playing at their full level again, though, I think our o-line will be every bit as good as it was 2 years ago.

So while the level of play right now is worse than in 08, I don't think we are in worse shape overall when looking at the long run. Just my opinion of course.

[BroncoWave]

Doubting players or coaches doesn't make anyone look stupid. The problem is, in the long run, people want to come back and shove your 'doubts' in your face if you raise questions. As if people can't doubt, worry, have concerns or simply don't jump onto the idea of 'buying' everything that is done purely because that player is on the team, or he's the coach.

That goes teh other way around as well. People will throw it in people's faces if the player/coach doesn't do well and want to do that childish "I told you so." Thats what starts the crap.

A QB has a good game, we see more people on the boards... he has a bad game and we see the OTHER side on the boards. THe team is winning, we see the "I told you so's" about McD. The team is losing, we see the "I told you so's" from the other side.

Generally speaking, its easier to guess failure. More people fail in professional sports than they succeed, as well as coaches. But no one is "stupid" for failing to see everything as rosy, as well people shouldn't be looked as "stupid" if they choose to see things that way.

It's called hyperbole. I don't actually think anyone who is wrong it stupid. I wouldn't have used that hyperbolic statement if I'd known it would have offended some on here so much.

[Ravage!!!]

I disagree. I think the overall talent level is higher. When you consider that the 3 veterans on our o-line are all coming off injuries and still aren't 100% and that the other 2 are rookies, there are obviously going to be problems. Once the rookies get some experience and the other 3 guys start playing at their full level again, though, I think our o-line will be every bit as good as it was 2 years ago.

So while the level of play right now is worse than in 08, I don't think we are in worse shape overall when looking at the long run. Just my opinion of course.

Until ANYONE proves that their talent is better, or,they PRODUCE as if they were better...then our OL is absolutely worse off then in '08. We had the BEST OL IN THE NFL. We are now ranked 2nd to last. Thats a HUGE drop, and we HAVE to see that our OL is worse now, than it was when Shanahan left. I don't care that there ar 2 rookies. I don't care what the "Guessed" potential of what we "Might" be or have in the future. We are talking about right now, today, compared to .... when Shanahan Left?? (still don't understand this, for sure).

[TXBRONC]

How is our pass rush worse off? Have you forgotten about a certain injury to a certain pass rusher? He's still on our roster and will still be here in the future so once that happens our pass rush will be every bit as good (and probably better because of Ayers) as it was under Shanahan.

The defense isn't getting consistent pressure or sack that's plan and simple fact. I also made it clear that it's because of circumstances beyond McDaniels control i.e. Dumervil's injury. So Dumervil is on the roster he also on the I.R. which means he obviously can't help. I like Ayers but right now he hasn't done much as far as the pass rush is concerned.

[BroncoWave]

Until ANYONE proves that their talent is better, or,they PRODUCE as if they were better...then our OL is absolutely worse off then in '08. We had the BEST OL IN THE NFL. We are now ranked 2nd to last. Thats a HUGE drop, and we HAVE to see that our OL is worse now, than it was when Shanahan left. I don't care that there ar 2 rookies. I don't care what the "Guessed" potential of what we "Might" be or have in the future. We are talking about right now, today, compared to .... when Shanahan Left?? (still don't understand this, for sure).

I am talking about right now and in the long run. I agree, RIGHT NOW it is worse. But in my opinion, the o-line he has build will be just as good if not better in the long run. Do I know that for sure? No. Just as you don't know for sure if they will be worse. Just a matter of opinions, which is what this thread was started for, just to get opinions on whether or not we are worse off in any area then we were at the end of Shanny's tenure.

[jhildebrand]

...than at the end of Shanahan's tenure? I mean think about it, for all the doom and gloom we are either better off or improving across the board.

Special Teams are far worse and they were bad under Shanahan.

Red Zone offense has gotten MUCH worse and it was BAD under Shanahan.

Our record isn't any different than it was under Shanahan the last three seasons.

[Ravage!!!]

I am talking about right now and in the long run. I agree, RIGHT NOW it is worse. But in my opinion, the o-line he has build will be just as good if not better in the long run. Do I know that for sure? No. Just as you don't know for sure if they will be worse. Just a matter of opinions, which is what this thread was started for, just to get opinions on whether or not we are worse off in any area then we were at the end of Shanny's tenure.

Yeah.. but if we are going to guess, then the same could be said for "guessing" what woudl have happened had Shanahan stayed.

I could guess that our OL would still be good, our running game would still be on fire. We wouldn't have drafted Moreno in the first round and probalby woudl have drafted someone on defense that fit a 4-3 defense.

We wouldn't have traded up for a corner, we wouldn't have traded up for a blocking TE.

I can go on and on, but the only point I'm making is that it feels as though you see everything as better, because you are speculating on the future on what things MIGHT be, and comparing that to things on how they were.

As of right now, I don't know if our OL is ever going to be good. The only OL I know is going to be good is Clady. I feel strongly that our Center will be good. But, we don't know. The OL is horrible. The RBs, are Bad. The passing game is putting up bigger numbers because we are actually having Orton throw the ball 50 times a game.

Realistically, I don't think our offense is as good, our OL, the offensive talent, and the pass rush (which is obviously hindered due to an injury), and special teams.

[jhildebrand]

Also, I think it is a bit of a failure to point to some of McDaniels wins in the draft. I am fine, so far, with the removal of Scheffler, Cutler, and Marshall because for the most part it appears that McDaniels has adequately replaced them. The caveat there is Thomas has only played in a few games and has a long way to go to demonstrate he can be close to Marshall's level let alone on it.

I call it a failure because at the end of the day we have to look at how many holes this team had the day McDaniels took over, an argument supplied time and again in threads like this, and yet he made more holes. Michael Lombardi recently highlighted how Denver has nothing to show for three number 1 picks but a 7th round TE and a busted up Maroney.

[BroncoWave]

Also, I think it is a bit of a failure to point to some of McDaniels wins in the draft. I am fine, so far, with the removal of Scheffler, Cutler, and Marshall because for the most part it appears that McDaniels has adequately replaced them. The caveat there is Thomas has only played in a few games and has a long way to go to demonstrate he can be close to Marshall's level let alone on it.

I call it a failure because at the end of the day we have to look at how many holes this team had the day McDaniels took over, an argument supplied time and again in threads like this, and yet he made more holes. Michael Lombardi recently highlighted how Denver has nothing to show for three number 1 picks but a 7th round TE and a busted up Maroney.

His first round picks have been Ayers, Moreno, Thomas, and Tebow. How exactly does that equate to a 7th round TE and Maroney? :confused:

[Gimpygod]

Joel, as to your claim that the offense is "much deteriorated", are you serious? The 08 offense was #2 in yards and #16 in scoring IIRC. Last year we did fall off a bit (although if you expected anything differently with an entirely new offensive scheme the team had to learn then you should probably learn to lower your expectations) but this year we are now #4 in total offense and #11 in scoring. If you consider that "much deteriorated" then we have very different definitions of what that phrase means.

for me the logical fallacy of your entire original argument is as follow: you begrudgingly point out three or four places where we are not as good as we were before, tight end, running game, offensive line and then marginalize those deficiencies by saying they don't matter now. For instance we are not as good in the area of tight ends and running (extremely crucial for scoring) then you follow by saying we don't need them now anyway. In the argument I quoted above you are taking a full year of statistics and comparing it against four weeks of statistics and, as anyone who watches football or plays poker knows, variance tends to smooth out over time.

Let's take a look at another part of your argument, "the offense obviously couldn't do well last year because it was their first year playing together under a new scheme." (Not a direct quote but captures the spirit of what you are saying… If you disagree please feel free to say so). If the regime had not changed we would be in the fourth year of an offensive team playing together with exceedingly talented folks at every position who would be more comfortable with the scheme as well as speed and intensity of the professional game. In only its second year that same unit was ranked as you indicate above with a defense that could not get off the field. That same defense is Shanahan's fault including his playing favorites to players who didn't have the ability to contribute such as Nate Webster and Nate Jackson.*As an interesting side note there've only been two things that almost got me to walk over the last couple of years: my desire to donkey punch the television screen whenever Nate Webster ran around for 30 yards celebrating making a tackle for a 6 yard gain and pictures of Gem on this very same website.

In closing I am saying the very factors of sameness or improvement you are pointing out as proof actually prove we would have been much better off if McDaniels would have accepted the gifts he had gotten and worked to make them better while simultaneously retooling the deficits he had inherited. He didn't and that is why I dislike the moves he made. The reason I don't like him personally is the way he treats players like chattel while using the lame excuse of character and then bringing in players like white and Cox who have definite and documented character flaws unlike Scheffler, Hillis, a quarterback to be unnamed, etc.

[SOCALORADO.]

The defense isn't getting consistent pressure or sack that's plan and simple fact. I also made it clear that it's because of circumstances beyond McDaniels control i.e. Dumervil's injury. So Dumervil is on the roster he also on the I.R. which means he obviously can't help. I like Ayers but right now he hasn't done much as far as the pass rush is concerned.

Hey.
Yeah, the defense needs to improve.
I like that Jamal is back to his usual, immovable wall status, but how long with that hold up? Hopefully DEN gets a whole season outta him, but DEN is thin after that. This defense absolutely has to have a monster NT to make it work. So i would say getting a NT in the 1st 3-4 picks is crucial next draft.
As for LB, DEN needs to invest in 2 in the offseason. DJs great, and Ayers is playing well, but after that, DEN has a serious drop off in true starting calibur talent. ILB David Harris will be a FA, he would be a HUGE upgrade inside with DJ, and NYJ have already spent a ton of $$$, so they will more than likely have to let him walk, especially if he raises a stink about more $$, and everyone knows hes worth it. He would go a long way to leadership and solidifying the defense.
And another 3-4 DE high in the draft should be a priority as well.
Clayborn or Watt with the 1st or 2nd pick.
TE is also becoming a bit of a concern too.
Even if Doom was at full speed, playing right now, he still never could stop the run, but damn those sacks help! LOL!

[BroncoWave]

for me the logical fallacy of your entire original argument is as follow: you begrudgingly point out three or four places where we are not as good as we were before, tight end, running game, offensive line and then marginalize those deficiencies by saying they don't matter now. For instance we are not as good in the area of tight ends and running (extremely crucial for scoring) then you follow by saying we don't need them now anyway. In the argument I quoted above you are taking a full year of statistics and comparing it against four weeks of statistics and, as anyone who watches football or plays poker knows, variance tends to smooth out over time.

I did say TE isn't as prevalent in McD's system but i NEVER said it doesn't matter now. I also NEVER said that RB and o-line don't matter now. I admitted that RB is definitely worse but I still have hope for Moreno. I also admitted that the o-line is currently worse but I said I think the talent level is higher and that will show with experience and recovery from injuries. Please don't misrepresent my arguments like that in the future.

[TXBRONC]

His first round picks have been Ayers, Moreno, Thomas, and Tebow. How exactly does that equate to a 7th round TE and Maroney? :confused:

McDaniels gave up a number one pick to draft Alphonso Smith so he was in essences a first rounder in fact McDaniels said he thought of him as a number one pick. All we got in trade was a 7th rounder and a TE that was on the Detroit practice squad IIRC.

[Gimpygod]

I disagree. I think the overall talent level is higher. When you consider that the 3 veterans on our o-line are all coming off injuries and still aren't 100% and that the other 2 are rookies, there are obviously going to be problems. Once the rookies get some experience and the other 3 guys start playing at their full level again, though, I think our o-line will be every bit as good as it was 2 years ago.

So while the level of play right now is worse than in 08, I don't think we are in worse shape overall when looking at the long run. Just my opinion of course.

"If ifs and buts were beer and nuts oh what a fine party we would have." Just making sure I get this straight, you are saying the offensive line is better overall except that three guys are hurt (who were here anyway) and some rookies who need to dramatically improve. If that is what you're saying, how is that better?

[jhildebrand]

His first round picks have been Ayers, Moreno, Thomas, and Tebow. How exactly does that equate to a 7th round TE and Maroney? :confused:

Ask Lombardi. I am actually looking for the quote again right now. Sandy Clough railed on it for about an hour the other night. The drafting at the point is still questionable at best along with creating more holes to fill than might have been necessary.

BTB, I like the idea of your OP. I just think it is too premature. Also, I think the "sample size" so many like to throw out would also be applicable.

[jhildebrand]

You still have yet to recognize my original point, BTB. The red zone, special teams, and the most important factor-wins haven't improved one bit. We can get cute and play talent evaluator, but at the end of the day this has been and still is a .500 team under McD.

[LordTrychon]

Ok... so assuming you're right and we're in the same boat as we were when Shanny left... (which is open for debate, but for the most part I think you're not far off)

We're as good as we were before Shanny left! Woohoo!

Shanny got fired for this sort of performance... the improvement better keep coming.

I'm not saying I don't think we will... I do.

But being as good as we were when we fired a HOF coach doesn't mean too much.

[BroncoWave]

"If ifs and buts were beer and nuts oh what a fine party we would have." Just making sure I get this straight, you are saying the offensive line is better overall except that three guys are hurt (who were here anyway) and some rookies who need to dramatically improve. If that is what you're saying, how is that better?

How much more clear can I be?

RIGHT NOW, yes, it is worse.

In the future, when Clady/Harris/Kuper are 100% and Walton/Beadles are more experienced I think it will be a very good unit and every bit as good if not better than the unit Shanny left him with. Is this guaranteed to happen? No. But it's just my opinion on the state of the o-line, which is the point of this thread. To state opinions on where we are and where we are going as a team compared to under Shanny.

And you may ask, why did McD have to retool such a great o-line, but what exactly was he supposed to do? Nalen retired, Weigmann is now retired, and Hamilton sucked and needed to be replaced. He kept the 3 best players on the o-line and decided to build the rest through the draft. If Shanny were here he'd still be facing the exact same problem of filling RG and C.

If you still don't get it I'm really not sure how much more clear I could be.

[BroncoWave]

McDaniels gave up a number one pick to draft Alphonso Smith so he was in essences a first rounder in fact McDaniels said he thought of him as a number one pick. All we got in trade was a 7th rounder and a TE that was on the Detroit practice squad IIRC.

Ok, so that's one of 5 first round picks McD has used in his tenure. To say "Denver has nothing to show for three number 1 picks but a 7th round TE and a busted up Maroney." could not be more incorrect.

[TXBRONC]

Hey.
Yeah, the defense needs to improve.
I like that Jamal is back to his usual, immovable wall status, but how long with that hold up? Hopefully DEN gets a whole season outta him, but DEN is thin after that. This defense absolutely has to have a monster NT to make it work. So i would say getting a NT in the 1st 3-4 picks is crucial next draft.
As for LB, DEN needs to invest in 2 in the offseason. DJs great, and Ayers is playing well, but after that, DEN has a serious drop off in true starting calibur talent. ILB David Harris will be a FA, he would be a HUGE upgrade inside with DJ, and NYJ have already spent a ton of $$$, so they will more than likely have to let him walk, especially if he raises a stink about more $$, and everyone knows hes worth it. He would go a long way to leadership and solidifying the defense.
And another 3-4 DE high in the draft should be a priority as well.
Clayborn or Watt with the 1st or 2nd pick.
TE is also becoming a bit of a concern too.
Even if Doom was at full speed, playing right now, he still never could stop the run, but damn those sacks help! LOL!

Our rush defense is admittedly better with moves that McDaniels made in the off season (currently ranked 10th IIRC) but it's only a temporary fix. Imo if Dumervil were playing right he would better against the run because of the changes that were made in the off season. But like you said we have to find a nose tackle to replace Jamal Williams at some point because at 34 years of age it's doubtful he's going to last more than 2 or 3 seasons in total. I also agree that defensive end and linebacker should high on the list of priorities.

[TXBRONC]

Ok, so that's one of 5 first round picks McD has used in his tenure. To say "Denver has nothing to show for three number 1 picks but a 7th round TE and a busted up Maroney." could not be more incorrect.

You're entitled to your opinion but I think atp it's valid argument to say we haven't gotten much in return.

[BroncoWave]

You still have yet to recognize my original point, BTB. The red zone, special teams, and the most important factor-wins haven't improved one bit. We can get cute and play talent evaluator, but at the end of the day this has been and still is a .500 team under McD.

The red zone is worse, but we are still scoring more points. The lack of a running game is obviously why the red zone is worse and I really hope McD can fix that.

As for special teams, you have to look at all of the facets:

Kicking game: Prater has improved vastly since 08 and I'm hazy on how our punting was that year but it's been pretty good this year.

Kick/punt coverage: Yeah that has been terrible but worse than 08? I dunno, it was pretty bad then too.

Kick/punt return: I don't think it's any worse than under Shanny and I think it's been improving as this season has gone on. Royal has done a decent job returning punts and DT did a great job returning kicks against Tennessee.

So overall, I really don't think the special teams are any worse than under Shanny.

And no, the wins haven't improved yet but I think with what McD has done with our team they will come sooner rather than later. Once again, just my opinion, but that's what this board is for.

[BroncoWave]

You're entitled to your opinion but I think atp it's valid argument to say we haven't gotten much in return.

How is what I said an opinion? It's a fact that he's used 4 of his 5 1st round picks on Moreno, Ayers, Thomas and Tebow, and one on A. Smith which turned into the TE. What in that is an opinion?

The statement "Denver has nothing to show for three number 1 picks but a 7th round TE and a busted up Maroney." is just false. I really don't know where he got that from. He used ONE #1 pick on A. Smith, not three.

[MileHighCrew]

24-24 over his last 3yrs says otherwise. He dumped a winning qb (reg/playoffs) for a hotheaded, non-winning qb. They say screwing up with a high1st rd qb can set a franchise back for years. Guess proof is in the pudding.
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But the Broncos are 10-10 under Josh. And I would bet you would have been hard pressed to find anyone that would have called Cutler a BUST after the 2008 (pro bowl) season.

Mike was building a great offence. I believe that is true and it would have worked. Josh is building a different but effective offence see Kyle Orton's numbers. and no one would have guessed that about him on the day of the trade. There is more than one way to build a winner.

[TXBRONC]

How is what I said an opinion? It's a fact that he's used 4 of his 5 1st round picks on Moreno, Ayers, Thomas and Tebow, and one on A. Smith which turned into the TE. What in that is an opinion?

The statement "Denver has nothing to show for three number 1 picks but a 7th round TE and a busted up Maroney." is just false. I really don't know where he got that from. He used ONE #1 pick on A. Smith, not three.

What people are telling you is that those picks haven't contributed much to this point.

Who said we used three picks on A. Smith? :confused:

[BroncoWave]

What people are telling you is that those picks haven't contributed much to this point.

Who said we used three picks on A. Smith? :confused:

From Michael Lombardi:

"Denver has nothing to show for three number 1 picks but a 7th round TE and a busted up Maroney."

[Ravage!!!]

How much more clear can I be?

RIGHT NOW, yes, it is worse.

In the future, when Clady/Harris/Kuper are 100% and Walton/Beadles are more experienced I think it will be a very good unit and every bit as good if not better than the unit Shanny left him with. Is this guaranteed to happen? No. But it's just my opinion on the state of the o-line, which is the point of this thread. To state opinions on where we are and where we are going as a team compared to under Shanny.

And you may ask, why did McD have to retool such a great o-line, but what exactly was he supposed to do? Nalen retired, Weigmann is now retired, and Hamilton sucked and needed to be replaced. He kept the 3 best players on the o-line and decided to build the rest through the draft. If Shanny were here he'd still be facing the exact same problem of filling RG and C.

If you still don't get it I'm really not sure how much more clear I could be.

Exactly. You asked us where we were "worse off" and we expressed that. Then you want to say that we won't be worse off in the future than we WERE when shanahan left. So you are using future speculation to guess and compare in a hindsight situtaion, without giving ANY guess as to where Shanahan's team would have been in the future.

So by your own words, these positions are worse than they were when Shanahan left, and that was the question in your OP, was it not?

Gimpygod made a great point. Last year people said that we were worse in offense because of a first year system with new players. Would we have had that with SHanahan having the same young players running the same system? We would be two years further along with the same young players in the same system. At the time, the Denver's offense was graded as one of the best up-n-coming offense in the NFL. McD was to have been given the best opportunity in the NFL because of the offensive weapons/talent that was already on the team.

So speculating, I would say that our offense would have continued to get better, our running game would still be damned good, our OL scheme would be working and our defense would have improved because the scouts that we DID have had proved to be doing a damned fine job as of the last couple years of Shanahan's tenure. We were getting a ton of talent. :whoknows:

Now I'm just playing devil's advocate here, but honestly the question you posed in your OP doesn't exactly provide a fair comparison. You want to guess and speculate on what you THINK we WILL be and compare that to what we were at the end of a 13 year career... without giving room to speculate on what we WOULD have been had Shanahan not left.

Everything is guess work. Maybe thats what you were asking for. But I took the OP to be asking where are we worse of right now, not what we think will happen once everyone is 100%, the rookies turn out to be pro-bowlers, and our draft choices in the future add to the team.

[jhildebrand]

I am looking for the exact quote but the argument was something along the lines that Denver, WITH ALL OF IT'S NEEDS, has little or nothing to show in terms of production for three #1 picks.

Moreno is injury prone (his words not mine)

Alphonso-what you don't do as a first year coach with limited time before the draft (his words) although he failed to mention that Alph is playing pretty good in Detroit and has taken over the starting role.

Tebow-not only a first round pick but all the additional picks as well and he wont even see the field.

He concluded that it was a POOR use of 3 #1's by a team who had larger needs elsewhere!

[BroncoWave]

I am looking for the exact quote but the argument was something along the lines that Denver, WITH ALL OF IT'S NEEDS, has little or nothing to show for three #1 picks.

Moreno is injury prone (his words not mine)

Alphonso-what you don't do as a first year coach with limited time before the draft (his words) although he failed to mention that Alph is playing pretty good in Detroit and has taken over the starting role.

Tebow-not only a first round pick but all the additional picks as well and he wont even see the field.

He concluded that it was a POOR use of 3 #1's by a team who had larger needs elsewhere!

So he's choosing to ignore the 2 #1 picks McD used on Ayers and Thomas, both of whom are looking to be pretty good players?

[Ravage!!!]

So he's choosing to ignore the 2 #1 picks McD used on Ayers and Thomas, both of whom are looking to be pretty good players?

No. He's pointing out that we didn't get anything out of 3 firsts. Its not a summary of all the picks.

[jhildebrand]

So he's choosing to ignore the 2 #1 picks McD used on Ayers and Thomas, both of whom are looking to be pretty good players?

I stated what was in the interview. They didn't go into much more.

I could speculate that Ayers rookie year was questionable at best (regarding production) and that Lombardi, if DT had been brought up, would say that DT was a need created by Josh for moving Marshall (whether anyone agrees or disagrees with the reasons why he was moved).

It is a valid point many have made for a while: Many have claimed to give McD time because all of the holes to which others have replied he is creating them as he goes when this team can't afford to be freespending with their picks (see Alph and Maroney).

[jhildebrand]

No. He's pointing out that we didn't get anything out of 3 firsts. Its not a summary of all the picks.

3 firsts and all the additional picks used to get Tebow.

[BroncoWave]

No. He's pointing out that we didn't get anything out of 3 firsts. Its not a summary of all the picks.

Well in that case that is a pretty premature statement. Yeah, the one spent on A. Smith was a bust, but Tebow hasn't even gotten a chance to show if that was a wasted pick or not and the jury is still out on Moreno as well. To say we have "nothing" to show for those 3 picks just isn't true.

[jhildebrand]

At this point your thread is so derailed so let's get it back on topic.

I like your OP and can see how, in time, we can be further ahead than when Shanahan left.

But like LT aptly pointed out, it probably isn't something to be proud that we are no worse than when Shanahan left when the reason he was fired was because of lack of progress. It is even worse considering the leaps and bounds KC has appeared to have made in Haley's second year.

[jhildebrand]

Well in that case that is a pretty premature statement. Yeah, the one spent on A. Smith was a bust, but Tebow hasn't even gotten a chance to show if that was a wasted pick or not and the jury is still out on Moreno as well. To say we have "nothing" to show for those 3 picks just isn't true.

Why is the concept so hard for you to grasp? :confused:

This team has nothing to show in terms of PRODUCTION from 3 high number one picks WHEN the team had so many HOLES to fill.

Could Moreno get or be better? Sure. I think he will.

Could Tebow be the next Steve Young? Sure. I think he could be pretty good.

But the fact is we are getting nothing from 3 #1's RIGHT NOW and a whole lot of additional picks to acquire Tebow when it could have been spent on guys that could contribute and provide depth RIGHT NOW!

[rcsodak]

Our OL is worse. Our blocking scheme was supposed to change to power blocking scheme, but in the Indy game it was pointed out that we used strictly the ZBS. So it appears the coaches don't know what we are. We don't know what kind of scheme is working for our personnel.

We had the best OL in football when Shanahan left.
wigmann got old. The others sucked. How do you figure the oline was so great when they TOO sucked at short yardage and goalline! Hell, if it wasnt for plummer and his running, it would have been even worse. You're simply wrong about the oline. Other than the 2 tackles, it was a time bomb waiting to go off.
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[rcsodak]

You still have yet to recognize my original point, BTB. The red zone, special teams, and the most important factor-wins haven't improved one bit. We can get cute and play talent evaluator, but at the end of the day this has been and still is a .500 team under McD.
wow! :lol: Talk about "sample size".
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[Oldschoolcrush]

Peyton Hillis......
Need I say more?
Power RB that requires a defenses attention, you cannot arm tackle him and he has great hands as a receiving back.
His presence in the back field along with a passing threat would set any defense back on their heals. He provides power running where it is needed in the red zone.
Red zone problems disappear, play action becomes possible and a short gain dump receiver is always available.
McDaniels traded Cutler yes, but what a lot of people don't realize is that Hillis was part of the deal. What did we get for him? Quinn..... number 3 on the depth chart?
We need Maroney like we need a hole in the head!
You need a finesse running back, you also need a smash mouth running back that will carry it 2-3 yards after initial contact...... Broncos had this and let it slip away!

[Lonestar]

Unfortuantely, i have to take issue with this particular comment and i liked Foxworth initially having watched him at UMD. But, his cover skills are terrible at the pro level. I can assure you most Raven fans do not like him AT all and having watched plenty of games with Foxy here in Baltimore his nickname is "toast" as he gets burned far more than he makes plays. If Foxy was worth the grain of salt like you believe him to be either Denver or Atlanta would of retained him. The only reason Bmore got him is because they are desperate for DB help.

Got to go with you on this one.

I was never impressed with him here, not once.

IN BAL he has a great front 7 so that should make him appear to be better than he really is.

[NightTrainLayne]

"If ifs and buts were beer and nuts oh what a fine party we would have." Just making sure I get this straight, you are saying the offensive line is better overall except that three guys are hurt (who were here anyway) and some rookies who need to dramatically improve. If that is what you're saying, how is that better?

Well the three guys you speak of are the same guys, and two of them are still very young.

The other two guys who got replaced were Weigman and Hamilton. And as we saw last year, they were quite simply past their "best when used by" date.

We have replaced both of them with quality youngsters who should develop into good OL, and the others are still good OL.

So, looking to the future, we are in better shape now going forward than we were in 2008.

Granted, you are free to argue that Shanny could have/would have replaced Weigman and Hamilton as well, but that's not the argument. The argument is "are we better now, than we were then".

[Lonestar]

I disagree. I think the overall talent level is higher. When you consider that the 3 veterans on our o-line are all coming off injuries and still aren't 100% and that the other 2 are rookies, there are obviously going to be problems. Once the rookies get some experience and the other 3 guys start playing at their full level again, though, I think our o-line will be every bit as good as it was 2 years ago.

So while the level of play right now is worse than in 08, I don't think we are in worse shape overall when looking at the long run. Just my opinion of course.

we have better talent and potential with the players we have now opposed to 08.

the biggest reason they were so good was they started all year together with minimal periods off the field if any for any of them.

I'd like to see that happen from here on out and see just how much better they are after a couple of games.

[TXBRONC]

Well in that case that is a pretty premature statement. Yeah, the one spent on A. Smith was a bust, but Tebow hasn't even gotten a chance to show if that was a wasted pick or not and the jury is still out on Moreno as well. To say we have "nothing" to show for those 3 picks just isn't true.

Those picks haven't made a significant impact on the team to this so what's being said is true.

[Lonestar]

Special Teams are far worse and they were bad under Shanahan.

Red Zone offense has gotten MUCH worse and it was BAD under Shanahan.

Our record isn't any different than it was under Shanahan the last three seasons.

seem to remember a pip squeak KR in KC kicking our ass a couple of times. Spourles in SAN and a few others, Josh does not quite meet that criteria yet.

I think we could agree that ST has never been a strong or even weak point in DEN.

[rcsodak]

Ok... so assuming you're right and we're in the same boat as we were when Shanny left... (which is open for debate, but for the most part I think you're not far off)

We're as good as we were before Shanny left! Woohoo!

Shanny got fired for this sort of performance... the improvement better keep coming.

I'm not saying I don't think we will... I do.

But being as good as we were when we fired a HOF coach doesn't mean too much.
I dont think thats what the point was. Many are spewing how McD has "ruined" the offense...."can't draft"....cant scout personnel.....cant coach....cant gameplan.....cant control the clock......
Personally, I see more PROMISE than what I did before. I like the more open offense. I like the 34 D. I was so tired of hearing the same "we're 1 or 2 players away" BS and watching another wasted draft.
Since I've seen so many ASSUMPTIONS, here's mine. Shanny NEVER would have fixed the Defense, going by his past..meaning more mediocrity
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[BroncoWave]

Well the three guys you speak of are the same guys, and two of them are still very young.

The other two guys who got replaced were Weigman and Hamilton. And as we saw last year, they were quite simply past their "best when used by" date.

We have replaced both of them with quality youngsters who should develop into good OL, and the others are still good OL.

So, looking to the future, we are in better shape now going forward than we were in 2008.

Granted, you are free to argue that Shanny could have/would have replaced Weigman and Hamilton as well, but that's not the argument. The argument is "are we better now, than we were then".

Thank you NTL! I'm glad someone gets what I'm trying to say. Glad to know I'm not totally crazy!

[Lonestar]

f If the regime had not changed we would be in the fourth year of an offensive team playing together with exceedingly talented folks at every position who would be more comfortable with the scheme as well as speed and intensity of the professional game. .

I stopped reading with this.

DO you really think that Pat hired him to be Mike II, he hired him to bring the NE scheme (Spread and PBS) to denver.

Not to try and run a scheme he had ZERO knowledge in. ( ZBS and mikes playbook.)

Some times we have to figure out what the intentions of Pat are before holding on to old ideas.

[rcsodak]

At this point your thread is so derailed so let's get it back on topic.

I like your OP and can see how, in time, we can be further ahead than when Shanahan left.

But like LT aptly pointed out, it probably isn't something to be proud that we are no worse than when Shanahan left when the reason he was fired was because of lack of progress. It is even worse considering the leaps and bounds KC has appeared to have made in Haley's second year.
top 5 picks tend to speed up rebuilding, wouldnt you agree? But kc also hasnt played anybody and still is in need of a qb. Though I do like their speed they bought.
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[Oldschoolcrush]

I dont think thats what the point was. Many are spewing how McD has "ruined" the offense...."can't draft"....cant scout personnel.....cant coach....cant gameplan.....cant control the clock......
Personally, I see more PROMISE than what I did before. I like the more open offense. I like the 34 D. I was so tired of hearing the same "we're 1 or 2 players away" BS and watching another wasted draft.
Since I've seen so many ASSUMPTIONS, here's mine. Shanny NEVER would have fixed the Defense, going by his past..meaning more mediocrity
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The defense has been relatively solid for quite some time...... Where you see cracks in a defense is when they bend but do not break but are asked to do it way too many times during the course of a game.
How many years did we watch the defense give up big plays to a ailing secondary but never break? You give enough shots to the opposition, it doesn't matter how solid your defense is.... They are going to exploit it!
How can a defense function when your offense can't sustain a drive or put points on the board?
You are going to win games, but when met with an offensive power house where you can only win by matching up on offense..... forget about it!
The defense has only been relative to what the offense is doing, something the number crunchers don't pay attention too.
Defense is the scape goat, the real problem has been how much they have been asked to do by the offense.

[jhildebrand]

top 5 picks tend to speed up rebuilding, wouldnt you agree? But kc also hasnt played anybody and still is in need of a qb. Though I do like their speed they bought.
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I have already gone over this. Kc's picks are very close to ours. It was in another thread. Yes they did have a #3 IIRC and a #5. After that, they are close to us in range and number of picks.

I wont fault them for their schedule-just like I didn't fault us last year. They can't help who they play!

I love their speed.

Also, they changed both coordinators in the offseason both of whom brought their systems with them! It is hard to not like their actual results right now.

[Ravage!!!]

wigmann got old. The others sucked. How do you figure the oline was so great when they TOO sucked at short yardage and goalline! Hell, if it wasnt for plummer and his running, it would have been even worse. You're simply wrong about the oline. Other than the 2 tackles, it was a time bomb waiting to go off.
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Wasn't the OL rated teh best in the NFL after '08? Isn't that the year Shanahan left? YOu can speculate all you wish, but the question was, how are we worse now than THEN. We had the BEST OL in the NFL. The BEST. Now, we have what could be considered one of the very worst, and it was one of the worst LAST year as well. So thats TWO seasons after Shanahan has left, that its just gotten WORSE.

Plummer had NOTHING to do with the team in '08. :lol: What are you talking about ,rc? The OL was the best when Plummer wasn't even on the team. I'm not wrong about the OL, the speculation that the line will get better is purely speculation, when we can look at the hindsight of FACT in regards to the OL rating when Shanahan left.

[rcsodak]

Why is the concept so hard for you to grasp? :confused:

This team has nothing to show in terms of PRODUCTION from 3 high number one picks WHEN the team had so many HOLES to fill.

Could Moreno get or be better? Sure. I think he will.

Could Tebow be the next Steve Young? Sure. I think he could be pretty good.

But the fact is we are getting nothing from 3 #1's RIGHT NOW and a whole lot of additional picks to acquire Tebow when it could have been spent on guys that could contribute and provide depth RIGHT NOW!
Who in their right mind says that, though, in years 1 and 2? MOST football guys say "3yrs" beforwe they judge.
Looks to me like lombardi is either bored, wanting to stir the anti-mcd pot, or taking a potshot at bowlen's replacement for his old pal, shanny.
Maybe he should compare shannys 1st rd failures..both drafted and traded away. :coffee:
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[Lonestar]

Why is the concept so hard for you to grasp? :confused:

This team has nothing to show in terms of PRODUCTION from 3 high number one picks WHEN the team had so many HOLES to fill.

Could Moreno get or be better? Sure. I think he will.

Could Tebow be the next Steve Young? Sure. I think he could be pretty good.

But the fact is we are getting nothing from 3 #1's RIGHT NOW and a whole lot of additional picks to acquire Tebow when it could have been spent on guys that could contribute and provide depth RIGHT NOW!


Specifically which three #1s did we use for him.

[Ravage!!!]

Who in their right mind says that, though, in years 1 and 2? MOST football guys say "3yrs" beforwe they judge.
Looks to me like lombardi is either bored, wanting to stir the anti-mcd pot, or taking a potshot at bowlen's replacement for his old pal, shanny.
Maybe he should compare shannys 1st rd failures..both drafted and traded away. :coffee:
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Here we go. No one can criticize a McD move unless they are a "friend" of Shanahan, right? Then, we have to try and tear down the past, to try and justify the moves of the present.

[jhildebrand]

Specifically which three #1s did we use for him.

It was in the thread.

Moreno
Alphonso
Tebow

Neither of the three have provided any production this year and Moreno's has been limited at best through 20 games.

[Ravage!!!]

It was in the thread.

Moreno
Alphonso
Tebow

Neither of the three have provided any production this year and Moreno's has been limited at best through 20 games.

Even when healthy he is limited :lol:..... :cool:

[TXBRONC]

top 5 picks tend to speed up rebuilding, wouldnt you agree? But kc also hasnt played anybody and still is in need of a qb. Though I do like their speed they bought.
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Not always. How many top 5 to 10 picks have the Raiders had over the past five years and they're no better off. Detroit has had a bunch top five picks over the last several years and it only now that they are starting to turn things around.

[jhildebrand]

Who in their right mind says that, though, in years 1 and 2? MOST football guys say "3yrs" beforwe they judge.
Looks to me like lombardi is either bored, wanting to stir the anti-mcd pot, or taking a potshot at bowlen's replacement for his old pal, shanny.
Maybe he should compare shannys 1st rd failures..both drafted and traded away. :coffee:
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I guess it would also be a good idea to compare the first twenty games of McDaniels career to a very selective hmmmm cherry picked sample of a previous coach :salute: [end sarcasm]

[jhildebrand]

Not always. How many top 5 to 10 picks have the Raiders had over the past five years and they're no better off. Detroit has had a bunch top five picks over the last several years and it only now that they are starting to turn things around.

some argue they hinder a team due to the cap hit.

[Lonestar]

Well the three guys you speak of are the same guys, and two of them are still very young.

The other two guys who got replaced were Weigman and Hamilton. And as we saw last year, they were quite simply past their "best when used by" date.

We have replaced both of them with quality youngsters who should develop into good OL, and the others are still good OL.

So, looking to the future, we are in better shape now going forward than we were in 2008.

Granted, you are free to argue that Shanny could have/would have replaced Weigman and Hamilton as well, but that's not the argument. The argument is "are we better now, than we were then".

IIRC Harris is just one year older that Clady in his case he has played less that 50% of the games he could have played in since coming into the league. Kuper is just one year older than he is. SO IMO they are all kiddies.

I foresee if the rooks work out that this OLINE could be together as many as 10-15 years Before the "best when used by" may start to apply.

Potentially we are on the moon compared to mikes oline in size, ability and nasty.

[Lonestar]

It was in the thread.

Moreno
Alphonso
Tebow

Neither of the three have provided any production this year and Moreno's has been limited at best through 20 games.

sorry but I read that as


But the fact is we are getting nothing from 3 #1's RIGHT NOW and a whole lot of additional picks to acquire Tebow when it could have been spent on guys that could contribute and provide depth RIGHT NOW!

3 #1s for tebow.

Pardon my confusion.

[jhildebrand]

sorry but I read that as



3 #1s for tebow.

Pardon my confusion.

No worries.

Don't get me wrong. I don't think it will be this way for long. However, for the time being 3 #1 picks production on the field will be Moreno only. It will be that way until Tebow starts. It is important to remember that Lombardi made the comment in regards to the Denver "had holes to fill" argument. He made it clear that they still hadn't filled them with moves like the ones made.

It could be argued that Cox and Thompson more than easily made Alph easier to move.

[rcsodak]

Wasn't the OL rated teh best in the NFL after '08? Isn't that the year Shanahan left? YOu can speculate all you wish, but the question was, how are we worse now than THEN. We had the BEST OL in the NFL. The BEST. Now, we have what could be considered one of the very worst, and it was one of the worst LAST year as well. So thats TWO seasons after Shanahan has left, that its just gotten WORSE.

Plummer had NOTHING to do with the team in '08. :lol: What are you talking about ,rc? The OL was the best when Plummer wasn't even on the team. I'm not wrong about the OL, the speculation that the line will get better is purely speculation, when we can look at the hindsight of FACT in regards to the OL rating when Shanahan left.
I disagree, rav. Just because they were good at the end of the year doesnt mean they would be the next! THAT, TOO, is speculating, is it not? The oline, for years, was considered good only because of rollouts, imo. PBS demanded new players.
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[jhildebrand]

I disagree, rav. Just because they were good at the end of the year doesnt mean they would be the next! THAT, TOO, is speculating, is it not? The oline, for years, was considered good only because of rollouts, imo. PBS demanded new players.
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Its far less a stretch to assume they would be as good or better with the same coach and system and another year together than to say this unit here with all the changes and youth are almost as good.

[TXBRONC]

some argue they hinder a team due to the cap hit.

In this day and age I can't say I disagree. Also if you're picking in the top 5 to 10 on a regular basis it probably means you don't much talent on your team in the first place.

[Oldschoolcrush]

Wasn't the OL rated teh best in the NFL after '08? Isn't that the year Shanahan left? YOu can speculate all you wish, but the question was, how are we worse now than THEN. We had the BEST OL in the NFL. The BEST. Now, we have what could be considered one of the very worst, and it was one of the worst LAST year as well. So thats TWO seasons after Shanahan has left, that its just gotten WORSE.

Plummer had NOTHING to do with the team in '08. :lol: What are you talking about ,rc? The OL was the best when Plummer wasn't even on the team. I'm not wrong about the OL, the speculation that the line will get better is purely speculation, when we can look at the hindsight of FACT in regards to the OL rating when Shanahan left.
The line seems to be giving decent protection, we also have to take into account that we have not seen many defenses too far back on their heals.... The question that has to be asked..... Does the line open up holes for the running back alone or does the play scheme allow for holes in a defense too be created?
Also, does the quality and threat of the RB play an important part in that?

I have to admit, when Shanahan was coach.... I saw holes created by the OL big enough you could drive a bus through..... How much of this was play calling?.... How much of this was created by play action pass?

Fix the RB problem and it will become more clear

[rcsodak]

Here we go. No one can criticize a McD move unless they are a "friend" of Shanahan, right? Then, we have to try and tear down the past, to try and justify the moves of the present.

Good to see that you are keeping up with the board, rc. ALways one that brings the discussion right back around to what people complain about. Knew we could count on you :beer:
Excuse me, but look at the title of the ******* thread!
YOU are part of the problem, when you constantly pull that distinguishing a poster as this or that and flinging it around everytime a debate isn't going your way. If that isn't BAITING, it's at the least, antagonistic, and NOT WELCOME OR NECESSARY. Maybe you should iggy me since you cant seem to reply without bringing me into the subject. Won't hurt my feelings 1 iota.
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[rcsodak]

I have already gone over this. Kc's picks are very close to ours. It was in another thread. Yes they did have a #3 IIRC and a #5. After that, they are close to us in range and number of picks.

I wont fault them for their schedule-just like I didn't fault us last year. They can't help who they play!

I love their speed.

Also, they changed both coordinators in the offseason both of whom brought their systems with them! It is hard to not like their actual results right now.
I agree, but dont tell KCL. :D I just think the bottom will fall out there, as denver's did last year. Ok....maybe I'm just hoping. :(
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[rcsodak]

It was in the thread.

Moreno
Alphonso
Tebow

Neither of the three have provided any production this year and Moreno's has been limited at best through 20 games.
Think you read jr's post wrong. He asked what 3-#1's were used on Tebow.
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[rcsodak]

Not always. How many top 5 to 10 picks have the Raiders had over the past five years and they're no better off. Detroit has had a bunch top five picks over the last several years and it only now that they are starting to turn things around.
True, Tx. But I think other than last yr's #1(DE I liked), they've drafted pretty well. I'm just not as sold on their coaching as others are. But we'll see.
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[rcsodak]

I guess it would also be a good idea to compare the first twenty games of McDaniels career to a very selective hmmmm cherry picked sample of a previous coach :salute: [end sarcasm]
hey, when in Rome......
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[Lonestar]

No worries.

Don't get me wrong. I don't think it will be this way for long. However, for the time being 3 #1 picks production on the field will be Moreno only. It will be that way until Tebow starts. It is important to remember that Lombardi made the comment in regards to the Denver "had holes to fill" argument. He made it clear that they still hadn't filled them with moves like the ones made.

It could be argued that Cox and Thompson more than easily made Alph easier to move.

There are players coming out of college like AYers that are to small for DE and to new for OLB, teaching him how to play a NEW position should get him some grace period and way to many on here expected him to be D ware from day one.

I saw his improvement later last year in getting near the QB and putting some pressure on them in 5-6 takes I saw him about a half step behind Doom to getting to the QB. So I was pretty sure he was "getting it" and would be more of a force this year.

Tebow if any writer thought he was going to come in and start they were a moron.

Could we have used those picks better probably but then we would probably have the same issues with those players also, taking time to learn a spot or position.

Very few instant starters on day one unless your a OL guy. and most of them are being fit into an existing veteran squad. Not like ours with as many as 3 rookies starting at once due to injury.

FWIW It also looks like Smith is doing good things with his new team also.
got his first pick on sunday.

IMHO most CB's do not come in and start day one, unless of course your a Champ Bailey.

there are two positions on a football team that require short term memory QB and CB because if either get burnt they have to shrug it off and play some more. You can't dwell on bad or for that matter good plays.

I wish him well as he did not IMO deserve the wrath form our fans he got. It was hard at best being a DB last year with almost no pass rush. Yes I know about Doom but he was all we had.

[Ravage!!!]

Excuse me, but look at the title of the ******* thread!
YOU are part of the problem, when you constantly pull that distinguishing a poster as this or that and flinging it around everytime a debate isn't going your way. If that isn't BAITING, it's at the least, antagonistic, and NOT WELCOME OR NECESSARY. Maybe you should iggy me since you cant seem to reply without bringing me into the subject. Won't hurt my feelings 1 iota.
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I have constantly responded to you about the subject, yet you are the one that seems to constantly continue to bring the subject to "insult the past to defend the present." Thats your MO. Has been. Pointing it out because its been a topic of discussion on the boards. I'm sorry that you are unable to see what is blatantly clear to everyone else.

But, yes. I think its probably time I do start ignoring you again, since you never seem to bring anything to the table other than the normal "well look at what Shanahan did." Good point :beer:

[I Eat Staples]

Most of your post is right on and I would have saluted it if not for this gem....

Just think how much BETTER we could be right now if we had not wasted time, picks and free agency signings on offense, and just funneled most of our energy into the D. That's my point. When you take over a team, you don't take a strength and scrap it to make it YOUR PERSONAL strength. You focus on improving the crappy unit, which was our defense.

I agree with this completely.

Oh, and Dumervil isn't our best defensive player. He's an excellent pass rusher but the reason we're improved in run D this year is because he isn't there.

[Gimpygod]

we have better talent and potential with the players we have now opposed to 08.

the biggest reason they were so good was they started all year together with minimal periods off the field if any for any of them.

I'd like to see that happen from here on out and see just how much better they are after a couple of games.

Weigman in KC is playing better than our center indicating the scheme McD installed may have been the problem and not the player.

[Gimpygod]

I stopped reading with this.

DO you really think that Pat hired him to be Mike II, he hired him to bring the NE scheme (Spread and PBS) to denver.

Not to try and run a scheme he had ZERO knowledge in. ( ZBS and mikes playbook.)

Some times we have to figure out what the intentions of Pat are before holding on to old ideas.

2 bad because there was some good stuff after that

no, he hired him to make us better and be a contending team immediately ( please see Pat's press conference for details ). We are neither.

[claymore]

Without going into who we gained or lost, I guess I just dont see how we are better.

We blew thru a ton of high picks, and stress for no forseable gain IMO. Im also scared to buy a Jersey with any Broncos name on it.

[atwater27]

for me the logical fallacy of your entire original argument is as follow: you begrudgingly point out three or four places where we are not as good as we were before, tight end, running game, offensive line and then marginalize those deficiencies by saying they don't matter now. For instance we are not as good in the area of tight ends and running (extremely crucial for scoring) then you follow by saying we don't need them now anyway. In the argument I quoted above you are taking a full year of statistics and comparing it against four weeks of statistics and, as anyone who watches football or plays poker knows, variance tends to smooth out over time.

Let's take a look at another part of your argument, "the offense obviously couldn't do well last year because it was their first year playing together under a new scheme." (Not a direct quote but captures the spirit of what you are saying… If you disagree please feel free to say so). If the regime had not changed we would be in the fourth year of an offensive team playing together with exceedingly talented folks at every position who would be more comfortable with the scheme as well as speed and intensity of the professional game. In only its second year that same unit was ranked as you indicate above with a defense that could not get off the field. That same defense is Shanahan's fault including his playing favorites to players who didn't have the ability to contribute such as Nate Webster and Nate Jackson.*As an interesting side note there've only been two things that almost got me to walk over the last couple of years: my desire to donkey punch the television screen whenever Nate Webster ran around for 30 yards celebrating making a tackle for a 6 yard gain and pictures of Gem on this very same website.

In closing I am saying the very factors of sameness or improvement you are pointing out as proof actually prove we would have been much better off if McDaniels would have accepted the gifts he had gotten and worked to make them better while simultaneously retooling the deficits he had inherited. He didn't and that is why I dislike the moves he made. The reason I don't like him personally is the way he treats players like chattel while using the lame excuse of character and then bringing in players like white and Cox who have definite and documented character flaws unlike Scheffler, Hillis, a quarterback to be unnamed, etc.

Post of the week.:beer:

[LordTrychon]

I dont think thats what the point was. Many are spewing how McD has "ruined" the offense...."can't draft"....cant scout personnel.....cant coach....cant gameplan.....cant control the clock......
Personally, I see more PROMISE than what I did before. I like the more open offense. I like the 34 D. I was so tired of hearing the same "we're 1 or 2 players away" BS and watching another wasted draft.
Since I've seen so many ASSUMPTIONS, here's mine. Shanny NEVER would have fixed the Defense, going by his past..meaning more mediocrity
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You can make that assumption if you want. I see that one a lot.

Here's a fun question for you though...

What year did Mike have the best defense?

I'll give you a hint... it wasn't at the start of his tenure with players or schemes he inherited. (another hint... that means its success will probably not be attributed to Mike at all).


Again... I'm not bashing Josh.

[shank]

no, he hired him to make us better and be a contending team immediately ( please see Pat's press conference for details ). We are neither.

definitely debatable. hence, this thread.

[atwater27]

All of the people bashing McD for blowing up the team and accusing him of getting rid of all our talent are going to be looking really stupid sooner rather than later.

[TXBRONC]

All of the people bashing McD for blowing up the team and accusing him of getting rid of all our talent are going to be looking really stupid sooner rather than later.

That's only true if his hand picked replacements don't fail. It's fact he took talent we had and shipped it off. If the pieces that McDaniels has replaced are better what was here previously I'm all for it.

[atwater27]

His handpicked replacements won't fail. Knowshawn, when he gets healthy, is the next Emmitt Smith. Robert Ayers has all tha makings of Lawrence Taylor. Tebow will shatter every NFL passing record and Bay Bay is already the best receiver in the league. he just doesn't know it yet.

[TXBRONC]

His handpicked replacements won't fail. Knowshawn, when he gets healthy, is the next Emmitt Smith. Robert Ayers has all tha makings of Lawrence Taylor. Tebow will shatter every NFL passing record and Bay Bay is already the best receiver in the league. he just doesn't know it yet.

Now I know you must be kidding because Clay gave you a Hi-5. :D

[Joel]

Unfortuantely, i have to take issue with this particular comment and i liked Foxworth initially having watched him at UMD. But, his cover skills are terrible at the pro level. I can assure you most Raven fans do not like him AT all and having watched plenty of games with Foxy here in Baltimore his nickname is "toast" as he gets burned far more than he makes plays. If Foxy was worth the grain of salt like you believe him to be either Denver or Atlanta would of retained him. The only reason Bmore got him is because they are desperate for DB help.
I don't live in GA, but he looked good on the admittedly few occasions I saw him with the Falcons. I know a girl who's a hard core Falcons fan and I remember teasing her about letting us have him back and her answer was an emphatic "NO!" With the widely recognized quality of Baltimores D year in and year out it's hard to imagine them being desperate for a CB, or that there wouldn't be tons of corners falling over themselves to get to their roster if they were. $7 million/year for 4 years is pretty darned expensive toast; maybe someone should tell the Ravens about Dennys. :tongue: And I assume it goes without saying Foxworth is better than rookie Perrish Cox, who's looking pretty crispy these days himself.

And you may ask, why did McD have to retool such a great o-line, but what exactly was he supposed to do? Nalen retired, Weigmann is now retired, and Hamilton sucked and needed to be replaced. He kept the 3 best players on the o-line and decided to build the rest through the draft. If Shanny were here he'd still be facing the exact same problem of filling RG and C.

If you still don't get it I'm really not sure how much more clear I could be.
That's a pretty fair point, actually, and a lot of us saw it coming when Shanny was here (in fact, I'd argue that he did, too, or we wouldn't have gotten Kuper and Myers, among others.) I still contend Hamilton was a lot better at what he did than most credit; he was a pure zone blocker, not a 320 pound grunt, so I can't fault him for not doing what he was never signed to do in the first place. The bottom line remains that whether you think the line is good or awful, its starters consist of three quality players Shanny acquired and two questionable rookies, so it's hard to say McDaniels has really improved anything there. I'm not willing to say he's made things worse, and it's very possible he's improved things a lot at guard (which hasn't been great for us in short yardage in a long time) I'm just saying it's difficult at this stage to credit McDaniels with anything on the line.

Not always. How many top 5 to 10 picks have the Raiders had over the past five years and they're no better off. Detroit has had a bunch top five picks over the last several years and it only now that they are starting to turn things around.
Jeez, is THAT the standard now? If your FO is clueless all the first round picks in the world won't help, that's true, but does anyone here believe that's the case in Denver? If not, it's not really a valid comparison; Lions and Raiders fans would be very grateful if their teams had gone .500 in recent memory.

We blew thru a ton of high picks, and stress for no forseable gain IMO. Im also scared to buy a Jersey with any Broncos name on it.
You totally should; when they become Pro Bowlers your jerseys value as a collectors item will skyrocket, since there were only a dozen of them made before we traded the dude. :tongue: Also: Howdy. :)

[Elevation inc]

The defense isn't getting consistent pressure or sack that's plan and simple fact. I also made it clear that it's because of circumstances beyond McDaniels control i.e. Dumervil's injury. So Dumervil is on the roster he also on the I.R. which means he obviously can't help. I like Ayers but right now he hasn't done much as far as the pass rush is concerned.

disagree entirely, sacks are not the only thing that determines pressure.....

hits, pressures, hurries are factors as well, aslo some of the teams we played havent allowed for tons of blitzing or pressure, the whole tennesse game for example the OLB's were sent on run blitzes for example, the indy game ayers dropped back quite a bit....so really we miss doom, and our pass rush isnt great sacks wise, but we are getting much more conistent pressure on teh QB with just a 3 or 4 front than we have in many years.

last year(outside of doom) and many years before, we had to blizt just to get pressure.....

[Elevation inc]

I don't live in GA, but he looked good on the admittedly few occasions I saw him with the Falcons. I know a girl who's a hard core Falcons fan and I remember teasing her about letting us have him back and her answer was an emphatic "NO!" With the widely recognized quality of Baltimores D year in and year out it's hard to imagine them being desperate for a CB, or that there wouldn't be tons of corners falling over themselves to get to their roster if they were. $7 million/year for 4 years is pretty darned expensive toast; maybe someone should tell the Ravens about Dennys. :tongue: And I assume it goes without saying Foxworth is better than rookie Perrish Cox, who's looking pretty crispy these days himself.
That's a pretty fair point, actually, and a lot of us saw it coming when Shanny was here (in fact, I'd argue that he did, too, or we wouldn't have gotten Kuper and Myers, among others.) I still contend Hamilton was a lot better at what he did than most credit; he was a pure zone blocker, not a 320 pound grunt, so I can't fault him for not doing what he was never signed to do in the first place. The bottom line remains that whether you think the line is good or awful, its starters consist of three quality players Shanny acquired and two questionable rookies, so it's hard to say McDaniels has really improved anything there. I'm not willing to say he's made things worse, and it's very possible he's improved things a lot at guard (which hasn't been great for us in short yardage in a long time) I'm just saying it's difficult at this stage to credit McDaniels with anything on the line.

Jeez, is THAT the standard now? If your FO is clueless all the first round picks in the world won't help, that's true, but does anyone here believe that's the case in Denver? If not, it's not really a valid comparison; Lions and Raiders fans would be very grateful if their teams had gone .500 in recent memory.

You totally should; when they become Pro Bowlers your jerseys value as a collectors item will skyrocket, since there were only a dozen of them made before we traded the dude. :tongue: Also: Howdy. :)



why do people focus on 1 or 2 plays rather than a body of work.....Cox is our second best rated CB right behind champ....for comparison purposes cox also plays the run better so far the Dwill/Fox/Paymah/Bly or goodman....all our former # 2 Cb's

for example while cox got roasted in the indy game for 2 Td's on tough luck plays, he also had 5 pass break-ups, and was perfect in coverage on all but 4plays.....he had 68 plays that game FYI........and it was peyton manning for christ sakes.....:D

[BCJ]

His handpicked replacements won't fail. Knowshawn, when he gets healthy, is the next Emmitt Smith. Robert Ayers has all tha makings of Lawrence Taylor. Tebow will shatter every NFL passing record and Bay Bay is already the best receiver in the league. he just doesn't know it yet.

you are setting yourself up for major failure here. Before you start crowning guys HOFers should at least get healthy or have 1 season of proven success. Clady looked like the best Oline guard ever produced and has digressed since his rookie year. Ez up on all that talk since i cant find the sarcasm button around here.

What stinks on the team? ST coverage and pressuring the QB.

[shank]

why do people focus on 1 or 2 plays rather than a body of work.....Cox is our second best rated CB right behind champ....for comparison purposes cox also plays the run better so far the Dwill/Fox/Paymah/Bly or goodman....all our former # 2 Cb's

for example while cox got roasted in the indy game for 2 Td's on tough luck plays, he also had 5 pass break-ups, and was perfect in coverage on all but 4plays.....he had 68 plays that game FYI........and it was peyton manning for christ sakes.....:D
seriously... minus a couple rookie mistakes, cox looks better than any rookies since dwill. pcox in the 5th cancels out phonzie as far as i'm concerned.

[Gimpygod]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gimpygod

no, he hired him to make us better and be a contending team immediately ( please see Pat's press conference for details ). We are neither.

definitely debatable. hence, this thread.

actually the orange stuff is completely beyond debate and factual. We are a500 team completing the definition of no better and we were not Super Bowl contenders last year thereby eliminating the truth value of being immediate contenders making my final conclusion of "neither" logically irrefutable.:elefant:

if you are talking about potential, you should not. I used to stick up for Shanahan and believe the potential of the team was valuable but was beat down on a consistent basis by Junior, coach, shazam and others as to the fallacy of my thinking. You see, only results matter and I have learned that lesson. The results of the McDaniels era? Sameness with a touch of worse. I would like to look at potential and future prospects but learned the error of my ways and have repented. No more of that future, Ouija board, witchcraft talk is coming from this fella… Look what it did to the Salem witches:shocked:.

If Bailey the Beast keeps talking about the future abilities of these players with such clairvoyant clarity an angry mob might snatch him up, tie some rocks to his feet and toss him into a deep pond… If he floats, WITCH! and if he sinks to the bottom? Well we've got some good news some bad news and some other bad news. Good news is he is not a witch! Hooray!:beer: bad news is he's not coming back from the swim and the other bad news is his predictions of the awesomeness of current players is probably just wishful thinking and not based on actual paranormal ability.

[Northman]

I don't live in GA, but he looked good on the admittedly few occasions I saw him with the Falcons. I know a girl who's a hard core Falcons fan and I remember teasing her about letting us have him back and her answer was an emphatic "NO!"

I believe it because when i saw the Denver/Atlanta game i said something similiar. Foxworth was playing like a guy who felt slighted by Denver so he played probably his best as a professional in his short time in Atlanta.


With the widely recognized quality of Baltimores D year in and year out it's hard to imagine them being desperate for a CB, or that there wouldn't be tons of corners falling over themselves to get to their roster if they were. $7 million/year for 4 years is pretty darned expensive toast;

You got that right but then again ive seen quite of few players who played for high contracts only to tank afterwards. When your desperate for DB help you probably will pay anything to try and help it out.


maybe someone should tell the Ravens about Dennys. :tongue: And I assume it goes without saying Foxworth is better than rookie Perrish Cox, who's looking pretty crispy these days himself.

Well, i would hope that Cox would look a little green. I mean, he is a rookie afterall.

[CrazyHorse]

Easily the pass rush without Doom.

[LTC Pain]

Special teams!!!

[jhildebrand]

Cox is light years ahead of Foxworth at this point.

Fox NEVER made a play on the ball. His MO was to be 3 yards off the WR, let him catch the ball, than be dragged for 6 more trying to tackle him.

Cox will get beat and picked on as a rookie. However, it wont last long.

[rcsodak]

Weigman in KC is playing better than our center indicating the scheme McD installed may have been the problem and not the player.
weigman is playing?
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

[underrated29]

Seriously, what the hell is wrong with everyone?

How the eff does shanny or the recent drafting come into play here? I loved shanny, and was super pissed he got canned, but guess what it is over and gone. I loved my ex wife too, but guess what she is over and gone too, and same thing. I dont give a eff about either shanny or her. I have moved on. Why cant the rest of you?

The original post brings no mention about shanny or drafting or anything. It is strictly about where are we worse from years past, besides the run game?


It did not ask for comparisons, or what could have been with shanny, or how much better had we drafted x or x. It was purely with what we have now we have improved everywhere except the run game.


Why is this so hard to understand?














Our OL is worse. Our blocking scheme was supposed to change to power blocking scheme, but in the Indy game it was pointed out that we used strictly the ZBS. So it appears the coaches don't know what we are. We don't know what kind of scheme is working for our personnel.

We had the best OL in football when Shanahan left.



Our OL is suffering right now. I do not think it is the fact that the coaches do not know what we are. I think it was the fact that they were game planning. Now I could be wrong, you could be wrong, we wont know unless josh mfmd tells us. But........ think about it. Indy gave up tons and tons of rushing yards to houston in game 1. And guess what. Houston runs the zbs. Every team in the nfl that is not a strict zbs, does incorporate some zbs into their pbs schemes.

But seemingly how the texans rolled out 200+ through the ZBS would it not maybe make sense to try and game plan to run the same type of scheme to exploit their major weakness? I think it makes sense. Now we did fail at it, but we have also failed at run blocking everywhere else too.





As for the topic at hand. BTB i agree with a fair amount of what you said. I do see improvement all over and I see the big picture of joshs puzzle i think.

Our offense while still not hitting on all cylinders yet, is firing HIGH and we are scoring more. Our run game has taken a major dump, but I do not think it is that bad of an issue. YES, we do need our run game and would like it to be much much much better. But it is not what he wants us to do or rely on. I think the run game just needs to be effective enough to be able to move the chains in short yard and goal, and also be able to control the clock and wear teams down, in those types of games. We are a pass first team now and will be.

I am much willing to give the OL some time here. We know the issues.

Defensively- major major improvements. We were like dead last in almost every area, now we are not and in some cases top 10 or close to it. It still needs a ways to go. I still stand by we need a HAAS DE and NT, and ILB. But it is almost there. Nothing that can not be fixed in the relative short term.


So yes, this team is improved all around, and we still have pieces that are learning and going to get better, and even other pieces that we have not seen yet, TT, Decker, Andre Brown....These guys could end up really balling out for us.



When we look at the time our team has stripped down and been reconstructed, things are not as bad as they seem. The plan is starting to come into focus and the experience is showing from the coaching staff on down. As it was said earlier it has been 1 season, 4 games. Considering a brand new head coach and staff and everything else, and we are competative I think it is almost dam remarkable. Building a team from scratch in 1.25 years is pretty remarkable, the lions, rams, browns and such wish they could do this......

[TXBRONC]

disagree entirely, sacks are not the only thing that determines pressure.....

hits, pressures, hurries are factors as well, aslo some of the teams we played havent allowed for tons of blitzing or pressure, the whole tennesse game for example the OLB's were sent on run blitzes for example, the indy game ayers dropped back quite a bit....so really we miss doom, and our pass rush isnt great sacks wise, but we are getting much more conistent pressure on teh QB with just a 3 or 4 front than we have in many years.

last year(outside of doom) and many years before, we had to blizt just to get pressure.....

I disagree we're not consistent pressure. I'm not sure how a run blitz counts for pressure in the passing game.

[Lonestar]

Seriously, what the hell is wrong with everyone?

How the eff does shanny or the recent drafting come into play here? I loved shanny, and was super pissed he got canned, but guess what it is over and gone. I loved my ex wife too, but guess what she is over and gone too, and same thing. I dont give a eff about either shanny or her. I have moved on. Why cant the rest of you?

The original post brings no mention about shanny or drafting or anything. It is strictly about where are we worse from years past, besides the run game?

It did not ask for comparisons, or what could have been with shanny, or how much better had we drafted x or x. It was purely with what we have now we have improved everywhere except the run game.

Why is this so hard to understand?

Our OL is suffering right now. I do not think it is the fact that the coaches do not know what we are. I think it was the fact that they were game planning. Now I could be wrong, you could be wrong, we wont know unless josh mfmd tells us. But........ think about it. Indy gave up tons and tons of rushing yards to houston in game 1. And guess what. Houston runs the zbs. Every team in the nfl that is not a strict zbs, does incorporate some zbs into their pbs schemes.

But seemingly how the texans rolled out 200+ through the ZBS would it not maybe make sense to try and game plan to run the same type of scheme to exploit their major weakness? I think it makes sense. Now we did fail at it, but we have also failed at run blocking everywhere else too.

As for the topic at hand. BTB i agree with a fair amount of what you said. I do see improvement all over and I see the big picture of joshs puzzle i think.

Our offense while still not hitting on all cylinders yet, is firing HIGH and we are scoring more. Our run game has taken a major dump, but I do not think it is that bad of an issue. YES, we do need our run game and would like it to be much much much better. But it is not what he wants us to do or rely on. I think the run game just needs to be effective enough to be able to move the chains in short yard and goal, and also be able to control the clock and wear teams down, in those types of games. We are a pass first team now and will be.

I am much willing to give the OL some time here. We know the issues.

Defensively- major major improvements. We were like dead last in almost every area, now we are not and in some cases top 10 or close to it. It still needs a ways to go. I still stand by we need a HAAS DE and NT, and ILB. But it is almost there. Nothing that can not be fixed in the relative short term.


So yes, this team is improved all around, and we still have pieces that are learning and going to get better, and even other pieces that we have not seen yet, TT, Decker, Andre Brown....These guys could end up really balling out for us.



When we look at the time our team has stripped down and been reconstructed, things are not as bad as they seem. The plan is starting to come into focus and the experience is showing from the coaching staff on down. As it was said earlier it has been 1 season, 4 games. Considering a brand new head coach and staff and everything else, and we are competitive I think it is almost dam remarkable. Building a team from scratch in 1.25 years is pretty remarkable, the lions, rams, browns and such wish they could do this......

Pretty astute post..

I think every one missed Josh saying that the game plans change week to week depending on who we play/

going after their weaknesses and staying away from their strengths.

I suspect we will continue to do that until we are a team with no weak spots and then we will just roll over other teams.

I do not think we are completely REBUILT YET, but we are approaching good starters in almost all areas now our issues is depth at all spots save perhaps WR. Where it appears we might have been 8 deep next year until McKinley did his thing.

[TXBRONC]

you are setting yourself up for major failure here. Before you start crowning guys HOFers should at least get healthy or have 1 season of proven success. Clady looked like the best Oline guard ever produced and has digressed since his rookie year. Ez up on all that talk since i cant find the sarcasm button around here.

What stinks on the team? ST coverage and pressuring the QB.

I agree on both counts.

On a brighter note at this point the return units seem to be solid.

[Gimpygod]

Seriously, what the hell is wrong with everyone?

How the eff does shanny or the recent drafting come into play here? I loved shanny, and was super pissed he got canned, but guess what it is over and gone. I loved my ex wife too, but guess what she is over and gone too, and same thing. I dont give a eff about either shanny or her. I have moved on. Why cant the rest of you?

The original post brings no mention about shanny or drafting or anything. It is strictly about where are we worse from years past, besides the run game?


It did not ask for comparisons, or what could have been with shanny, or how much better had we drafted x or x. It was purely with what we have now we have improved everywhere except the run game.


Why is this so hard to understand?

Our OL is suffering right now. I do not think it is the fact that the coaches do not know what we are. I think it was the fact that they were game planning. Now I could be wrong, you could be wrong, we wont know unless josh mfmd tells us. But........ think about it. Indy gave up tons and tons of rushing yards to houston in game 1. And guess what. Houston runs the zbs. Every team in the nfl that is not a strict zbs, does incorporate some zbs into their pbs schemes.

But seemingly how the texans rolled out 200+ through the ZBS would it not maybe make sense to try and game plan to run the same type of scheme to exploit their major weakness? I think it makes sense. Now we did fail at it, but we have also failed at run blocking everywhere else too.

As for the topic at hand. BTB i agree with a fair amount of what you said. I do see improvement all over and I see the big picture of joshs puzzle i think.

Our offense while still not hitting on all cylinders yet, is firing HIGH and we are scoring more. Our run game has taken a major dump, but I do not think it is that bad of an issue. YES, we do need our run game and would like it to be much much much better. But it is not what he wants us to do or rely on. I think the run game just needs to be effective enough to be able to move the chains in short yard and goal, and also be able to control the clock and wear teams down, in those types of games. We are a pass first team now and will be.

I am much willing to give the OL some time here. We know the issues.

Defensively- major major improvements. We were like dead last in almost every area, now we are not and in some cases top 10 or close to it. It still needs a ways to go. I still stand by we need a HAAS DE and NT, and ILB. But it is almost there. Nothing that can not be fixed in the relative short term.


So yes, this team is improved all around, and we still have pieces that are learning and going to get better, and even other pieces that we have not seen yet, TT, Decker, Andre Brown....These guys could end up really balling out for us.



When we look at the time our team has stripped down and been reconstructed, things are not as bad as they seem. The plan is starting to come into focus and the experience is showing from the coaching staff on down. As it was said earlier it has been 1 season, 4 games. Considering a brand new head coach and staff and everything else, and we are competative I think it is almost dam remarkable. Building a team from scratch in 1.25 years is pretty remarkable, the lions, rams, browns and such wish they could do this......

the original post is specifically asking everyone to compare the end of the Shanahan era with now… I mean, that's what it says so what are you talking about?

In the orange highlighted material you are talking about trivial stuff like marriage and divorce, this website is about important stuff… Football! Also, does your ex-wife want you to watch her every weekend for three hours at a stint, buy merchandise with her face on it and rely upon your vigilance to increase her ad revenues? Because, the Broncos are asking that of me and the rest of us fans so they can expect us to wax nostalgic until they put a better product on the field.

[Ravage!!!]

If we are trying to switch back and forth between the ZBS and the reported "power" blocking scheme taht the OL has supposedly moved to, then I'll state that I think thats a HUGE mistake in game planning.

underrated29 had a good idea in thinking that may have been the reason, but if it is, thats terrible (I guess we could point out that it absolutely didn't work). First everyone is talking about the young guys up front that need to learn the NFL and learn to be cohesive with one another, and we do that by asking them to attempt to be successful with two different blocking philosophies? :confused:

Previous coaches changed the game plan each and every week. Jaws would go on and on about eh changes made from weeek to week and how the previous coach would work to maximize the match-ups to their fullest. But we never changed how we block THEIR ideas on how to stop us. Our OL is designed to react to what they do, that needs to be second nature.

So although I understand the suggestion that it may have been because the Texans were able to run the ball, I truly hope that was NOT the reason. Although, it would make the most sense, since there doesn't seem to be anything working with the OL anyway.

[Northman]

the original post is specifically asking everyone to compare the end of the Shanahan era with now… I mean, that's what it says so what are you talking about?



I was kind of wondering about that comment by him too. :lol:

[TXBRONC]

I was kind of wondering about that comment by him too. :lol:

Gimpy has a way with words doesn't he? :laugh:

[slim]

If we are trying to switch back and forth between the ZBS and the reported "power" blocking scheme taht the OL has supposedly moved to, then I'll state that I think thats a HUGE mistake in game planning.

underrated29 had a good idea in thinking that may have been the reason, but if it is, thats terrible (I guess we could point out that it absolutely didn't work). First everyone is talking about the young guys up front that need to learn the NFL and learn to be cohesive with one another, and we do that by asking them to attempt to be successful with two different blocking philosophies? :confused:

Previous coaches changed the game plan each and every week. Jaws would go on and on about eh changes made from weeek to week and how the previous coach would work to maximize the match-ups to their fullest. But we never changed how we block THEIR ideas on how to stop us. Our OL is designed to react to what they do, that needs to be second nature.

So although I understand the suggestion that it may have been because the Texans were able to run the ball, I truly hope that was NOT the reason. Although, it would make the most sense, since there doesn't seem to be anything working with the OL anyway.

I agree, those kind of moves reek of desperation (and I hope it isn't true).

It reminds me of a few years ago when our D was horrid and we tried to switch from a 4-3 to a 3-4 in the middle of the season. You can't go through the offseason, acquiring players that fit a certain scheme and practicing that scheme, and then just change it on a whim (note, I bring this up because it is the only example I can think of, not because of the parties involved).

If that is what has happened, then I am not a happy camper.

[Dreadnought]

I agree, those kind of moves reek of desperation (and I hope it isn't true).

It reminds me of a few years ago when our D was horrid and we tried to switch from a 4-3 to a 3-4 in the middle of the season. You can't go through the offseason, acquiring players that fit a certain scheme and practicing that scheme, and then just change it on a whim (note, I bring this up because it is the only example I can think of, not because of the parties involved).

If that is what has happened, then I am not a happy camper.

2007 IIR. Our defense went from mere bad to putrid when we switched.

[slim]

2007 IIR. Our defense went from mere bad to putrid when we switched.

I could never understand WTF they were thinking. It was bizarre.

I just hope we are not reliving it with the OL.

[TXBRONC]

I agree, those kind of moves reek of desperation (and I hope it isn't true).

It reminds me of a few years ago when our D was horrid and we tried to switch from a 4-3 to a 3-4 in the middle of the season. You can't go through the offseason, acquiring players that fit a certain scheme and practicing that scheme, and then just change it on a whim (note, I bring this up because it is the only example I can think of, not because of the parties involved).

If that is what has happened, then I am not a happy camper.

If I'm not mistaken McDaniels said he was going to try and use both zone blocking and power blocking schemes and then switch full time to a power blocking scheme this year. If were going to do the same thing this year and use both schemes I don't think that will be conducive to building chemistry.

[slim]

If I'm not mistaken McDaniels said he was going to try and use both zone blocking and power blocking schemes and then switch full time to a power blocking scheme this year. If were going to do the same thing this year and use both schemes I don't think that will be conducive to building chemistry.

If they have planned for it and have been praticing both all off season, that is one thing (and I wouldn't mind so much). But if the plan was to switch to a power scheme this year (as you said) and they have scrapped that plan already, that is not a good sign.

[TXBRONC]

If they have planned for it and have been praticing both all off season, that is one thing (and I wouldn't mind so much). But if the plan was to switch to a power scheme this year (as you said) and they have scrapped that plan already, that is not a good sign.

I think even if they did practice both in camp I think it would be very difficult at best to in sync with both schemes. Besides that they really don't that much time in camp that they can develop two different schemes.

[Ravage!!!]

If they have planned for it and have been praticing both all off season, that is one thing (and I wouldn't mind so much). But if the plan was to switch to a power scheme this year (as you said) and they have scrapped that plan already, that is not a good sign.

I think we are having a hard time find our OL identity. What are we exactly? Are we built for the power, are we more built for the ZBS? Is the RBs better with the ZBS? I don't think the coaches know, or are doing what they can to figure it out.

We certainly aren't haven't success with what we are doing. I HOPE its not because we continue to try and switch up schemes based on the game matchups.

[underrated29]

the original post is specifically asking everyone to compare the end of the Shanahan era with now… I mean, that's what it says so what are you talking about?

In the orange highlighted material you are talking about trivial stuff like marriage and divorce, this website is about important stuff… Football! Also, does your ex-wife want you to watch her every weekend for three hours at a stint, buy merchandise with her face on it and rely upon your vigilance to increase her ad revenues? Because, the Broncos are asking that of me and the rest of us fans so they can expect us to wax nostalgic until they put a better product on the field.


:lol::lol: First that made me chuckle

Second.

Yes, to compare the end of the shanny era. How the team was at/when shanny was fired. Not what could have been, what should have been, not who we should have traded or anything else. Just two items.

teams S compared to team J.

Going on about trading him or drafting him or fixing this and that and this could have been done, or anything else is stupid and not what the OP wanted. Just how the two compared.


As for the ex wife, it brings some context into how bogus people are being. It is things of the past, just because it is football does not mean it is not in the past and people should let it go. Now as far as going nastalgic until they put a better product on the field, I think everyone agrees with you, but still does not mean we need to get off topic and turn this thread into one of the 10,000 mike vs josh vs only fix defense, vs knowshon sucks vs zbs vs pbs vs jake vs jay vs kyle vs paper vs plastic vs hillis vs lube or no lube.

[slim]

:lol::lol: First that made me chuckle

Second.

Yes, to compare the end of the shanny era. How the team was at/when shanny was fired. Not what could have been, what should have been, not who we should have traded or anything else. Just two items.

teams S compared to team J.

Going on about trading him or drafting him or fixing this and that and this could have been done, or anything else is stupid and not what the OP wanted. Just how the two compared.


As for the ex wife, it brings some context into how bogus people are being. It is things of the past, just because it is football does not mean it is not in the past and people should let it go. Now as far as going nastalgic until they put a better product on the field, I think everyone agrees with you, but still does not mean we need to get off topic and turn this thread into one of the 10,000 mike vs josh vs only fix defense, vs knowshon sucks vs zbs vs pbs vs jake vs jay vs kyle vs paper vs plastic vs hillis vs lube or no lube.

Is lube or no lube really up for debate?

[Oldschoolcrush]

Peyton Hillis......
Need I say more?
Power RB that requires a defenses attention, you cannot arm tackle him and he has great hands as a receiving back.
His presence in the back field along with a passing threat would set any defense back on their heals. He provides power running where it is needed in the red zone.
Red zone problems disappear, play action becomes possible and a short gain dump receiver is always available.
McDaniels traded Cutler yes, but what a lot of people don't realize is that Hillis was part of the deal. What did we get for him? Quinn..... number 3 on the depth chart?
We need Maroney like we need a hole in the head!
You need a finesse running back, you also need a smash mouth running back that will carry it 2-3 yards after initial contact...... Broncos had this and let it slip away!
Gratuitous self promotion of thought.... Sorry!

Got tired of watching the one dimensional offense of the broncos run backwards.... Holding penalty after holding penalty because every positive play requires Orton to pass and the OL to protect.... Pitiful

On a note even more difficult to swallow, did you see that phenomenal one handed grab by Peyton Hillis for a TD.... Oh yeah, he has a TD in every game now, 2 in last weeks game.

[Oldschoolcrush]

Don't mean to harp or beat a dead horse that I name McD, but a little info on Peyton Hillis.
Against Baltimore week three.... 22 rushes for 144 yds and 7 rec for 36 yds.... 1 TD
Thought it was a bit of interesting stats to post, all things considered!