Judging the changes at the quarter pole

[robert ethan]

Without meaning to open old wounds, what can we say about Josh McDaniels off season moves at this point of the season? The most high profile and controversial move was the trade of Brandon Marshall. Following tonight's game Marshall has 27 catches for 340 yards in his new digs. Pretty much what you would expect from him 1/4 the way through the season. He has also created controversy over his attitude. Again, not unexpected. Dolphins are 2-2 like the Broncos. His replacement? Take your pick, short term Brandon Lloyd has 25 catchs for 454 yards, Jabbar Gaffney 22 catchs 240 yards. Long term DeMaryius Thomas has 11 catchs for 160 yards in 3 games. His average is the same as Marshall. Brandon had just 20 catchs his rookie season, most of them towards the end of the year.

Tony Scheffer went for a fifth round pick which became Perrish Cox who displaced Alphonso Smith on the depth chart, sending him to join Scheff in Detroit in exchange for backup tight end Dan Gronkowski. Tony has 20 catchs for 170 yards and appears headed for a bigger season as a receiver than he enjoyed in Denver. Gronkowski is more of a blocker at the position and has filled in at fullback with Larsen out. Schefflers targets essentially went to wide receivers. He and Marshall combined have 47 catchs for about 500 yards. Lloyd and Gaffney have 47 catchs for 700 yards. Gronkowski blocks and the wideouts catch the passes.

The other two major makeover moves were the offensive and defensive lines. The D line was rebuilt with vets, the O line with rookies. The results are predictable. This is the one area where I fault McDaniels. He is showing way too much faith in a group of mediocre rooks like Beadles, Walton, and Daniels.

[Northman]

This is the one area where I fault McDaniels. He is showing way too much faith in a group of mediocre rooks like Beadles, Walton, and Daniels.


I wouldnt call them mediocre after just 4 games. Sure, they are struggling a little bit but a guy like Clady almost made rookie of the year i believe in his rookie season. Im sure McD could of gone out and gotten some vets for the Oline but you only have so many roster spots to begin with. Im as skeptical as they come to McDaniels tenure so far but im not going to write the rookie Oline off after just 4 games. Its just not logical at this point. Now, if we dont see some improvement throughout the year maybe we can revisit that statement.

[robert ethan]

But Clady was blue chip when he came in. Those type of athletes come to a team once in a decade or so. Beadles and Walton are nowhere near that level. The best you can hope from them is that they are both smart and hardworking enough to become adequate journeymen in the league. Daniels is somewhere south of that in terms of upside. If one of the three is still with the team two years from now I'll be surprised.

I guess the deal I overlooked was Hillis for Quinn, which isn't looking great from the Bronco perspective at the moment. But Hillis is playing in Cleveland because Harrison is out, I think, while Quinn is not playing in Denver because Orton is healthy. Either situation could change and change the perspective on the trade quite quickly.

[Northman]

But Clady was blue chip when he came in.

True


Those type of athletes come to a team once in a decade or so. Beadles and Walton are nowhere near that level. The best you can hope from them is that they are both smart and hardworking enough to become adequate journeymen in the league. Daniels is somewhere south of that in terms of upside. If one of the three is still with the team two years from now I'll be surprised.I dont know too much about Daniels but ive liked what ive seen from Beadles and Walton (Walton especially) in terms of tenacity. I just think they need more time to develope and i think by the end of the year we will have a much clearer picture where we stand with those guys honestly.

[underrated29]

I think you will be very very surprised than robert.


I think people forget last years oline and how terrible it was. Orton never had time to throw, the run game was constantly being blown up 4 yards behind the los. Now atleast it is getting blown up at the los.

By the way, 2 are rookies, last years shitty players were vets. Not sure what to think about stanley, but I promise you JD and beadles will both be here 2 years from now.

[Buff]

Walton has played relatively well for a rookie. The jury is still out on Beadles. I think they wanted Beadles to win the LG role but he got outplayed by an undrafted free agent in Daniels - which I don't know if that says more about Daniels' upside or Beadles underachieving. At some point some of them are going to have to start run blocking though. I think Kuper, Clady and Harris all coming off lower body injuries have really hurt the power running game.

Grankowski is a second string blocking TE with two receptions. I don't really know if there is any more to be said about him yet.

Tough to argue with the results in the passing game. Drama free group who doesn't complain when they don't get the ball.

Nice to see the Dolphins lose tonight so that 2nd rd draft pick gets better.

[robert ethan]

I don't mean to rag on Beadles and Walton, but both guys seemed to be rated as mid rounders prior to the draft, and you don't usually take a mid round pick and project him to start from day 1. Particularly on the O line which relies a lot on experience and cohesion to work properly. That was a bit of a vanity move on McDaniels part, I think. He figured he could beat the odds.

[Ravage!!!]

I knew Walton was starting material from watching him in College. He was the guy I was happiest about in the draft. He IS the kind of talent you would expect to start. So its no shocker to see him starting.

[Lonestar]

I don't mean to rag on Beadles and Walton, but both guys seemed to be rated as mid rounders prior to the draft, and you don't usually take a mid round pick and project him to start from day 1. Particularly on the O line which relies a lot on experience and cohesion to work properly. That was a bit of a vanity move on McDaniels part, I think. He figured he could beat the odds.

IIRC Walton was the #2 center in the draft and Beadles was like the #4 OT in the draft. Now I could be wrong about those numbers but they both have the pedigree to start in the NFL, not every OL guys that starts in the NFL can be day one picks. simply not enough of them to go around.

As far as starting, they were head above who we had last year.

I have always contended that beadles was taken to replace harris when his contract is up. Frankly knowing the harris has played in less than half of his career start possibilities (25 of 52) makes me think that is about what he is going to do down the road.

http://www.nfl.com/players/ryanharris/profile?id=HAR534109


IMO the run blocking issues are secondary to Pass Protect. Lets get those down pat before expending tons of practice time on run blocking. Orton is one of the reasons we have been in all the games and have won two of them. Without him we could be really sucking it up.

[Ziggy]

One of the biggest improvements is on the Dline. They are winning at the LOS most of the time. Most of the rushing yards from opponents this season have come either on the outside, or on cutbacks from the LB's not holding contain. Jamal Williams is solid, as is Bannan against the run. Vickerson has been a pleasant surprise. Last year's starters are backups, which means we have doubled our depth on the Dline.

The Oline has 3 new starters, and Clady and Harris are getting back in game shape. Walton is playing fine, and Beadles gets a pass from me because he's had to learn 3 positions as a rookie. If Harris can stay healthy, I expect Beadles to be starting at LG soon. The Oline as a whole should improve throughout the season.

Demaryius Thomas has future star written all over him, but the other receivers are playing too well to take off of the field. It's a good problem to have.

Wink has done a great without the NFL's premiere pass rusher. The Broncos have been in every game in the 4th quarter, despite getting no help from special teams, or the rushing and red zone offenses.

Parrish Cox is a young stud at corner, and how great does the Kyle Orton contract extension prior to the season look now?

There are some problems to fix, and some mistakes have been made, but I like the direction this team is headed in.

[Buff]

I don't mean to rag on Beadles and Walton, but both guys seemed to be rated as mid rounders prior to the draft, and you don't usually take a mid round pick and project him to start from day 1. Particularly on the O line which relies a lot on experience and cohesion to work properly. That was a bit of a vanity move on McDaniels part, I think. He figured he could beat the odds.

I don't know if it was vanity so much as necessity - at center anyway. I think everyone was ready to move on from the undersized Casey Wiegmann.

Pouncey looks really good in Pittsburgh. I was hoping that was going to be our 1st round pick... But we needed a playmaker at WR (Thomas) and we ended up getting the 2nd highest rated guy at center (Walton), so I'd rather get the skill position early and wait a couple rounds to get a center.

We looked at bringing in the 49ers tackle Pashos in free agency to give us more line depth and Center Rex Hadnot from Cleveland, but both ended up asking for too much $$. At that point, it was draft a guy to develop or bring in some other mediocre castoff.

[robert ethan]

Yeah, I didn't have a problem with Walton in the third round, although you can usually get decent centers later than that. But the Beadles pick made no sense to me. He was another fourth or fifth round development project behind a veteran starter. Particularly since they were asking him to change position. But the club left themselves no safety net, they tossed out half the guys from last season and gave the rookies the job in training camp. Beadles has since played himself out of the job, and if things don't improve, Walton may as well. Daniels and Batiste are castoffs who have been hovering on the fringes for a couple of years.

It's like building a grand structure without a foundation. McDaniels has created a dynamic passing game that looks wonderful, but as soon as someone takes out Orton the whole thing collapses. The NFL is geared to that these days. Kill the head and the body dies. It's what the Saints did last season with Brett Favre. A Denver columnist pointed out today that of the three QBs who have been sacked as often as Orton, two are currently on the injury list as doubtful. It's inevitable that Kyle is going to have the type of game that Cutler had on Sunday without more adequate support.

[Lonestar]

I don't know if it was vanity so much as necessity - at center anyway. I think everyone was ready to move on from the undersized Casey Wiegmann.

Pouncey looks really good in Pittsburgh. I was hoping that was going to be our 1st round pick... But we needed a playmaker at WR (Thomas) and we ended up getting the 2nd highest rated guy at center (Walton), so I'd rather get the skill position early and wait a couple rounds to get a center.

We looked at bringing in the 49ers tackle Pashos in free agency to give us more line depth and Center Rex Hadnot from Cleveland, but both ended up asking for too much $$. At that point, it was draft a guy to develop or bring in some other mediocre castoff.

Id much rather have a young and up coming OLINE one that can play together for a decade or more. than bring in a lot of guys that are going to stunt the growth of the kids.

We will be fine down the road once they get to know each others names.

[SR]

First, it's catchEs, with an e.

Second, I agree on the receiver parts. One BIG, GLARING thing you forgot to touch on is the defensive line. We managed to keep Indy from running the ball much at all. We shut down the biggest name at the RB position yesterday. IMO, our secondary has played way less than par. Our offensive line is taking stupid penalties. Our running game is non-existent. Moroney should be cut from the team. Overall, I like the moves McDaniels is making. I don't mind being labeled the "Patriots of the West" because the Patriots win games and win Super Bowls.

[Elevation inc]

True

I dont know too much about Daniels but ive liked what ive seen from Beadles and Walton (Walton especially) in terms of tenacity. I just think they need more time to develope and i think by the end of the year we will have a much clearer picture where we stand with those guys honestly.

could be they just need a year in a off-season program for some strength as well.....i like the rooks, but we knew there was going to be growing pains....Center is the hardest position for a rookie to start at even alex mack a supposed blue chipper there struggled.......

i def agree we need more time to get a read 4 games is 1 1/2 years to early to judge for me anyways......

[rationalfan]

regarding the rookie offensive linemen discussed in this thread: why does it feel like the arguments for or against them are being based on pre-draft information? seems to me it would make more sense to watch game tape from this season that isolates their play and judge from that.

[robert ethan]

"Pre-draft". My criticism is not directed at the rookies, but the fact that McDaniels felt he could draft a couple of non-descript college kids and plug them straight into the starting lineup. That's goofy, and now the results are showing.

[rationalfan]

"Pre-draft". My criticism is not directed at the rookies, but the fact that McDaniels felt he could draft a couple of non-descript college kids and plug them straight into the starting lineup. That's goofy, and now the results are showing.

yeah, because second and third round draft picks never start during their rookie seasons. and i'm not sure what you mean by "non-descript." beadles was an all-american at utah and walton was widely considered the second best center prospect in the draft. that's actually quite "descript."


hey, i'm not defending mcd, but blaming two rookies is too easy. more likely, they're part of the problem; along with underachieving running backs, poor play-calling, faulty scheme, etc.

[rcsodak]

"Pre-draft". My criticism is not directed at the rookies, but the fact that McDaniels felt he could draft a couple of non-descript college kids and plug them straight into the starting lineup. That's goofy, and now the results are showing.
So keep weigman anf hamilton? If you'll remember, the rb's were getting hit in the backfield last year. Now, at the LOS. ANY ex-Olineman will tell you it takes time to learn tendencies of the guys next to you. Last week was the FIRST TIME they've played together! And against one of the better Dlines in the league! This week, SAME THING! It's work in progress.
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[robert ethan]

I think the team averaged around 4 ypc rushing last season. This year they're averaging about half that. Orton is on pace for about 50 sacks on the season which would be nearly double last year's total. I don't think you can make a very good case that the line play has improved. If they didn't want the guys from last season, replace them with some free agent vets. Or use higher draft picks on more promising prospects at the position. Beadles wasn't rated as a second round pick by many in the draft, and that was before he was abused at the Senior Bowl. It's another Richard Quinn situation.

[Lonestar]

could be they just need a year in a off-season program for some strength as well.....i like the rooks, but we knew there was going to be growing pains....Center is the hardest position for a rookie to start at even alex mack a supposed blue chipper there struggled.......

i def agree we need more time to get a read 4 games is 1 1/2 years to early to judge for me anyways......

I agree with each game they are learning something and as long as they do not make the same mistakes time after time then we are going to get better.

I have said this several times, but will say it again olines take time to develop trust and rapport in the guy next to you. Knowing how he is going to react to a ceratin situation speed up the response time in getting something done.

When a OL guy has to think about something it slows his reaction by a split second and in college most of the time you can get away with it. in the NFL you can't.

NOW my next concern is the rookie wall can they work through that and survive?

give these kiddies a year at this and they will be stronger have more confidence than they do now. they will be getting coaching and weight work in the off season and next year will be on the way to something special for a LOOOOOONG time.

KC's line back int eh early 2000's was an excellent OL one of the best in the league if not the best. They we not the biggest guys. What did they have that was so special rarely did one of them miss a game over a 7-14 year period. They knew what the guy next to them would be doing in every situation.

Time will tell if we have that starting here.