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View Full Version : Town Hall Discussion - We have a lot of unhappy campers, how are we going to fix this?



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Tned
10-04-2010, 08:48 PM
Ok, normally a thread like this would go in the Town Hall forum, but due to the fact it effects everyone posting or lurking (people that read, but don't post) within Broncos Talk, I felt the thread needed the full visibility of Broncos Talk.

I think everyone would agree that BroncosForums, like many other boards right now, is not a very fun place to hang out. We have a problem where a lot of people drew lines in the sand in the first six months or so after Shanahan was fired and McDaniels was hired, and have refused to budge since that time.

In VERY broad terms, we have most posters falling into one of three categories:


McDaniels supporters, and by extension, often posting negatively about past Broncos players and coaches.
McDaniels critics, and by extension, often posting positively about past Broncos players and coaches.
People stuck in the middle of the two warring factions listed above.


With only a few exceptions, most people on here seem to agree that the snipping, sniping, baiting, bashing, flaming, fighting and such doesn't make this a very fun place to hang out. Neither wins nor losses seem to change the environment.

Lots of people have voiced frustration about the the state of things on BroncosForums. We have had a number of quality posters take temporary or permanent breaks from BF, because they just couldn't deal with the fighting that happens in nearly every thread.

One phenomenon that I think is important that we are all aware of and accept as real is that posters from those different groups above (and I imagine sub-groups that aren't quite at the extremes and even people in group 3 that lean one way or the other) are often looking at the exact same threads, and seeing different reasons for why a thread goes in the toilet. Group one typically believes that group 2 can't let go of Shanahan and the players that are gone, and therefore constantly brings them up in threads that have nothing to do with them. Group 2 believes that group 1 constantly brings up and attacks Shanahan and the former players as a means of defending McDaniels and the current players, or baiting group 2. We had a discussion among a few mods today about these very different perceptions, and the fact that two people can view the exact same thread, but reach completely opposite conclusions as to who or what caused it to go off topic and turn to crap (for lack of a better word).

So, my questions to you are:

What can we as a community do to get past the divide and make this a more enjoyable place to talk about our Broncos?

What can the mod team and I do to help us get to that point?

Feel free to give your thoughts on those two questions, as well as addressing anything I didn't cover.

Thanks

T

CHARLIEADAMSFAN
10-04-2010, 08:57 PM
I know I've been away for a while and my opinion really probably doesn't matter to much, but I think the clash of opinions needs to stay. Although we do want to make it more enjoyable, I feel as though this forum should be to voice the opinions of the fans, and the Broncos have a divided fan base as we can tell. Although it's terrible for some at times I feel like we can't over regulate and have the message board take its own stance.

Maybe make separate forum areas for the different groups?

I know I didn't really answer your question I just wanted to chyme in my two cents.

Tned
10-04-2010, 09:04 PM
In case anyone viewed this therad right after I posted it, I am calling out this section which I added later.



One phenomenon that I think is important that we are all aware of and accept as real is that posters from those different groups above (and I imagine sub-groups that aren't quite at the extremes and even people in group 3 that lean one way or the other) are often looking at the exact same threads, and seeing different reasons for why a thread goes in the toilet. Group one typically believes that group 2 can't let go of Shanahan and the players that are gone, and therefore constantly brings them up in threads that have nothing to do with them. Group 2 believes that group 1 constantly brings up and attacks Shanahan and the former players as a means of defending McDaniels and the current players, or baiting group 2. We had a discussion among a few mods today about these very different perceptions, and the fact that two people can view the exact same thread, but reach completely opposite conclusions as to who or what caused it to go off topic and turn to crap (for lack of a better word).

Buff
10-04-2010, 09:05 PM
Personally, I think that if there was a big problem then it would be reflected in a membership and traffic drop off... Best I can tell, the place is as popular as ever.

So I say let the warring factions continue to debate and let the situation run its own course.

I know I'm in the minority on this one, but I just don't think its the job of moderators to jump in and tell someone if they are having a good or bad discussion. Any discussion is a good one IMO - it's when people stop coming around and having discussions at all that we'll be in trouble.

Lonestar
10-04-2010, 09:08 PM
As PN and Carol wanted make a NO hate zone and anyone blasting the other side in it, goes on vacation.



There are still folks that think mike, jay, ts and marshall could do no wrong.
and in their posts in insinuating about how bad things are because of Josh, Orton, Xman, are. There are more but those seem to be the main targets.

Give those that wish to comment without rancor a place to do so.

Seems Pretty simple to me.

elsid13
10-04-2010, 09:08 PM
Tned there is nothing you can do until the Broncos start winning and are back in the championship conversation. Until that time, everyone going have different opinions about the state of this franchise and which way it should go. Everyone needs to respect other's opinions* on the matter and agree to disagree on certain things. Just be civil about it.

* There are no need to respect for any of Dread's wacko ideas about fat Swedes, and everyone should make fun of him for holding those beliefs.

red98
10-04-2010, 09:10 PM
I don't know how to fix it. It seems whenever a poster criticizes McDaniels or praises Kyle Orton (for example) a certain few posters assume you must wish Shannahan was back or you hate Jay Cutler.

I'd like to be able to harp on how bad Maroney is without people coming back with a "you're just a hater" or a "Peyton Hillis is gone get over it"


Anyway that's my 2cents

UnderArmour
10-04-2010, 09:10 PM
Only one way this gets fixed: The Broncos win and keep winning. Nothing the mod team can do will stop the whining if the Broncos lose. Finger pointing and mashing the panic button will go on all season if we don't win with the only difference here being is that there are tons of moves to look back upon. I'm impressed by how light things have been, given the early misfortunes with injury and the lingering Cutler/Shanahan/Hillis/Marshall controversies.

scott.475
10-04-2010, 09:12 PM
Here is what I don't understand. Why do differences of opinion here have to be personal to the point of requiring one to insult another? I don't get it, I really don't. Sometimes people will reply to a post with nothing more than an insult, simply because they disagree. Why take the time? Why not just leave the thread if you don't like it? I would hope we ALL feel passionately about the Broncos, regardless of what we think the current problems might be. But having passions doesn't mean we have to resort to personal insults and name calling.

The other day someone referred to me as "Son of Jagsbag", that was the entire response. I don't get the reference, but whatever, I just don't understand the need to have posted anything if that is all you had to say. As I said then, it is not as if I have been a pot stirrer on this board, or even caused trouble, I don't think.

Why not just start suspending people if they can't post a response without resorting to insults of whatever kind.

Northman
10-04-2010, 09:24 PM
Im pretty much spent on this whole ordeal. Ive done what i can on my end to improve how i post and language i use within them. But i still see quite a few who constantly bait in threads on both sides and then you have a few who only want that kind of chaos because they feel like they are censored even though that kind of enviroment exists at other forums. I think some people just like to push their agenda's for the sake of pushing them. Maybe they have nothing better to do i dont know. Either way, if it hasnt changed by now it never will unless the "suspensions" or "bannings" come at a faster pace. My guess is, for those who want to continue to push the boundaries just start banning them for a week. If they cry and bitch too bad let them go elsewhere if they think its so bad here.

BroncoJoe
10-04-2010, 09:27 PM
It's a forum on the internet. You can't "fix" the problems you're describing.

JMO.

OrangeHoof
10-04-2010, 09:30 PM
Yes, it's hell for the mods but, frankly, there's nothing you can do about the situation that isn't ultimately going to make it worse. The last thing we need is a bunch of people that go running off to mommy because somebody posted a comment for the nth time that attacked either past or present players or coaches.

It is what it is and it's here to stay until either a) McDaniels wins a playoff game or b) McDaniels gets fired. Until then, he'll remain an underachieving arrogant Napoleon-figure or the next great dynasty-builder, depending on your opinion.

gnomeflinger
10-04-2010, 09:36 PM
It is what it is. If they break the CoC, then ban them.

Denver Native (Carol)
10-04-2010, 09:36 PM
Possible solution.

When a thread is started in regards to a present Bronco, Orton for example, present coach, Coach McD, or Wink for example, the discussion needs to remain around those - if it is Orton, there is no need to throw in a post about Cutler, neither positive or negative, if there is a thread started in regards to Coach McD, there is no need to throw in a post about Shanahan - positive or negative, Wink - there is no need to throw in a post about Nolan - positive or negative, etc., etc., etc. - in other words - stay on topic.

12. Stay on topic. With the exception of “Say Anything/Café” type threads typically located in the “What’s on your mind” forum, posters should be very careful about creating off topic posts. It is very easy for a thread to get derailed by a joke or two and then the responses that follow. It is important to respect the thread starter and stay on topic in the threads that aren’t designed to be long lasting, wandering threads.

If someone wants to discuss Cutler, Shanahan, Nolan, or any other previous Bronco player or coach, start a thread in other NFL team discussion.

Dreadnought
10-04-2010, 09:44 PM
It is what it is. If they break the CoC, then ban them.

And we've done that on occassion. I think what we are looking for is guidance on how tight to call that strike zone, and partly a request to knock off some of the really stupid name calling we've seen. I've got a 4th grader, and I need to devote more of my my "name calling counseling" to her issues, so if that can be reduced that would be great. :D

As for Elsid, please note that he is of Polish ancestry, and he has views on 17th Century history that are delusional. Ignore what he said about Swedes in other words. The Poles have a reputation, um, that, how shall I put this? Speaks for itself...

OTOH, debating the various Northern Wars might be a welcome break for us over, say, debating Laurence Maroney

jhildebrand
10-04-2010, 09:47 PM
What can we as a community do to get past the divide and make this a more enjoyable place to talk about our Broncos?

Nothing! Unless you can change the coach or his decisions, nothing can be done. This place and the activity here takes place almost exclusively based on something with the team: actions, inactions, abilities and inabilities. Orton made a throw or a pick!

Anytime you have a coach come in and make as many moves as bold and swift as they were, there will be a fracturing of the fan base especially after having the same coach for so long. . These boards are a perfect representation of our fan base. What we have here isn't relegated to just these forums. It happens in bars and anyother place the Broncos are talked about.



What can the mod team and I do to help us get to that point?

I guess you have to evaluate your constitution and philosophy for your mods. Do you want a heavily moderated board? Do you want to apply ground rules for every thread?

Or PM every member?



Feel free to give your thoughts on those two questions, as well as addressing anything I didn't cover.

At the end of the day I think this is a great place. Sometimes you have to have a thick skin. However, it is gaining in popularity and traffic. I think that says a lot.

Northman
10-04-2010, 09:48 PM
And we've done that on occassion. I think what we are looking for is guidance on how tight to call that strike zone, and partly a request to knock off some of the really stupid name calling we've seen. I've got a 4th grader, and I need to devote more of my my "name calling counseling" to her issues, so if that can be reduced that would be great. :D

As for Elsid, please note that he is of Polish ancestry, and he has views on 17th Century history that are delusional. Ignore what he said about Swedes in other words. The Poles have a reputation, um, that, how shall I put this? Speaks for itself...

OTOH, debating the various Northern Wars might be a welcome break for us over, say, debating Laurence Maroney


Yea, but the Polish do have some great death metal bands. :D

Denver Native (Carol)
10-04-2010, 09:49 PM
And we've done that on occassion. I think what we are looking for is guidance on how tight to call that strike zone, and partly a request to knock off some of the really stupid name calling we've seen. I've got a 4th grader, and I need to devote more of my my "name calling counseling" to her issues, so if that can be reduced that would be great. :D

As for Elsid, please note that he is of Polish ancestry, and he has views on 17th Century history that are delusional. Ignore what he said about Swedes in other words. The Poles have a reputation, um, that, how shall I put this? Speaks for itself...

OTOH, debating the various Northern Wars might be a welcome break for us over, say, debating Laurence Maroney

Maybe I am confused, but what is happening in this thread that Tned started is covered by areas in the COC.

In regards to name calling:

3. No threats, name calling, ethnic or racist remarks, gender harassment or other type of posts that attack another poster or posters.

I guess my suggestion would be to mod to the COC

sneakers
10-04-2010, 09:53 PM
I think time will be the only thing that fixes this (No one is still arguing over the merits of having Plummer or Cutler as their quarterback, right?)

Dreadnought
10-04-2010, 09:54 PM
Maybe I am confused, but what is happening in this thread that Tned started is covered by areas in the COC. In regards to name calling:

3. No threats, name calling, ethnic or racist remarks, gender harassment or other type of posts that attack another poster or posters.

I guess my suggestion would be to mod to the COC

I take your point, Carol, and I agree, but always remember that the CofC is a lot of times more art than science. Its pretty short, thankfully. We also have to use discretion and have some knowledge of the membership. A couple of buddies can say things to each other that are uproariously funny (and lord knows we need humor now and again), and the exact same words might be bannable if used between guys that we know dislike each other. Plus, not all levels of personal attack equal others. Elsid and I just took potshots at each other, because we';ve gotten to know each other and share an obscure interest/hobby - so in that case obviously no actual personal attack occurred

Denver Native (Carol)
10-04-2010, 10:03 PM
I take your point, Carol, and I agree, but always remember that the CofC is a lot of times more art than science. Its pretty short, thankfully. We also have to use discretion and have some knowledge of the membership. A couple of buddies can say things to each other that are uproariously funny (and lord knows we need humor now and again), and the exact same words might be bannable if used between guys that we know dislike each other. Plus, not all levels of personal attack equal others. Elsid and I just took potshots at each other, because we';ve gotten to know each other and share an obscure interest/hobby - so in that case obviously no actual personal attack occurred

I suggested before to start a forum where those who want, can put on the boxing gloves and have at one another. Could be an opt in. Other than that, I have no idea, other that what I have already suggested.

As Tned stated, some on here definitely feel it is a problem, some have semi left, some permanent, so it appears that something needs to be done.

gnomeflinger
10-04-2010, 10:04 PM
Or people just need to grow up.

gnomeflinger
10-04-2010, 10:05 PM
I suggested before to start a forum where those who want, can put on the boxing gloves and have at one another. Could be an opt in. Other than that, I have no idea, other that what I have already suggested.

As Tned stated, some on here definitely feel it is a problem, some have semi left, some permanent, so it appears that something needs to be done.

I thought the boxing glove thread was the smack forum. :confused:

shank
10-04-2010, 10:06 PM
battle royal(e?). the lines have been drawn...

dogfish
10-04-2010, 10:08 PM
can the mods just shoot anyone that mentions cutler outside the other teams forum?

that would be a good start, IMO. . .

dogfish
10-04-2010, 10:09 PM
battle royal(e?). the lines have been drawn...

steel cage match. . .

Denver Native (Carol)
10-04-2010, 10:09 PM
I thought the boxing glove thread was the smack forum. :confused:

I guess in a way it is, but it is usually either a fan of another team making a thread in regards to the Broncos, or a Bronco fan making a thread in regards to another team.

Northman
10-04-2010, 10:11 PM
can the mods just shoot anyone that mentions cutler outside the other teams forum?

that would be a good start, IMO. . .

Consider yourself shot. :tsk::D

Denver Native (Carol)
10-04-2010, 10:12 PM
One more suggestion - can the Black Hole be used also to move posts there?

Maybe just title it "Black Hole Posts"

shank
10-04-2010, 10:12 PM
steel cage match. . .

no man, internet fight. it's like live action role-playing.


for example:


i just totally punched buff in the eyeball super hard. now he has to pretend to have a black eye for 3 whole weeks (buff doesn't have enough iron in his diet, so his bruises linger).

also, i have a +3 strike shield, but am vulnerable to verbal attacks concerning my big nose.

Tned
10-04-2010, 10:15 PM
One more suggestion - can the Black Hole be used also to move posts there?

Maybe just title it "Black Hole Posts"

The only purpose for the Black Hole is to move posts to.

sneakers
10-04-2010, 10:17 PM
no man, internet fight. it's like live action role-playing.


for example:


i just totally punched buff in the eyeball super hard. now he has to pretend to have a black eye for 3 whole weeks (buff doesn't have enough iron in his diet, so his bruises linger).

also, i have a +3 strike shield, but am vulnerable to verbal attacks concerning my big nose.

http://hosting06.imagecross.com/image-hosting-08/5928internet-fight.jpg

shank
10-04-2010, 10:19 PM
http://hosting06.imagecross.com/image-hosting-08/5928internet-fight.jpg

:queen:

Denver Native (Carol)
10-04-2010, 10:19 PM
The only purpose for the Black Hole is to move posts to.

I guess I was thinking of some of the threads that jags started - they have been moved there. I did not realize individual posts from different threads have been moved there also.

TXBRONC
10-04-2010, 10:20 PM
And we've done that on occassion. I think what we are looking for is guidance on how tight to call that strike zone, and partly a request to knock off some of the really stupid name calling we've seen. I've got a 4th grader, and I need to devote more of my my "name calling counseling" to her issues, so if that can be reduced that would be great. :D

As for Elsid, please note that he is of Polish ancestry, and he has views on 17th Century history that are delusional. Ignore what he said about Swedes in other words. The Poles have a reputation, um, that, how shall I put this? Speaks for itself...

OTOH, debating the various Northern Wars might be a welcome break for us over, say, debating Laurence Maroney

A little tighter control of the strike zone sounds like a good idea to me. There are some posters who may not violating the letter of the CoC but they seem to violate the spirit of the CoC with regularity.

shank
10-04-2010, 10:26 PM
A little tighter control of the strike zone sounds like a good idea to me. There are some posters who may not violating the letter of the CoC but they seem to violate the spirit of the CoC with regularity.

those are loopholes, and i appreciate their dedication to finding them.


(for the record, i don't see a problem. we lived through plummer vs. cutler, we can live through this dumb bullshit).

BeefStew25
10-04-2010, 10:27 PM
I think the issue can be solved if McD gets his shit together and gets us into the playoffs.

Tned
10-04-2010, 10:32 PM
I guess I was thinking of some of the threads that jags started - they have been moved there. I did not realize individual posts from different threads have been moved there also.

My bad, you typed posts, I replied posts, but in my head I was thinking threads.

The biggest problem with moving individual posts is that what criteria would we use? Moving threads is tough enough, and we need to have multiple mods agree to it. I am not sure about moving individual posts. Not only is that an increased workload for the mods, but it seems that if individual posts deserve to be moved, they probably deserve to be deleted.

robert ethan
10-04-2010, 10:32 PM
Imho.

NightTrainLayne
10-04-2010, 10:33 PM
can the mods just shoot anyone that mentions cutler outside the other teams forum?

that would be a good start, IMO. . .

:mad: You just mentioned Cutler outside the other teams forum. :mad:

D1g1tal j1m
10-04-2010, 10:36 PM
Go Broncos!

Denver Native (Carol)
10-04-2010, 10:37 PM
My bad, you typed posts, I replied posts, but in my head I was thinking threads.

The biggest problem with moving individual posts is that what criteria would we use? Moving threads is tough enough, and we need to have multiple mods agree to it. I am not sure about moving individual posts. Not only is that an increased workload for the mods, but it seems that if individual posts deserve to be moved, they probably deserve to be deleted.

Then they need to be deleted. The best solution to the problem would be as someone posted - GROW UP - if some can not do that - they need to suffer the consequences. Again, it has to be a problem, for this thread to be started, so some conclusion needs to come out of it.

Northman
10-04-2010, 10:40 PM
Then they need to be deleted. The best solution to the problem would be as someone posted - GROW UP - if some can not do that - they need to suffer the consequences. Again, it has to be a problem, for this thread to be started, so some conclusion needs to come out of it.

Pretty much how i see it. There is only about 4-5 posters who are going out of their way to derail and bait in threads. If they start pulling their shit just ban them for a week and if they complain oh well. For the time being until the team either wins or McD is gone tightening up the reigns for a while may be the way to go. Even if the offenders leave because they get banned its not a big deal. As someone pointed out we get a lot of traffic and a influx of new people all the time so for those who cannot follow the rules they wont be missed honestly.

Tned
10-04-2010, 10:41 PM
Then they need to be deleted. The best solution to the problem would be as someone posted - GROW UP - if some can not do that - they need to suffer the consequences. Again, it has to be a problem, for this thread to be started, so some conclusion needs to come out of it.

That's the reason for this thread. Most of it does not break the letter of the law, so there is little that the mod team can do unless we are going to create new rules or start to apply subjective modding to 'fix' the problem.

TXBRONC
10-04-2010, 10:42 PM
Pretty much how i see it. There is only about 4-5 posters who are going out of their way to derail and bait in threads. If they start pulling their shit just ban them for a week and if they complain oh well. For the time being until the team either wins or McD is gone tightening up the reigns for a while may be the way to go. Even if the offenders leave because they get banned its not a big deal. As someone pointed out we get a lot of traffic and a influx of new people all the time so for those who cannot follow the rules they wont be missed honestly.

Agreed.

shank
10-04-2010, 10:44 PM
That's the reason for this thread. Most of it does not break the letter of the law, so there is little that the mod team can do unless we are going to create new rules or start to apply subjective modding to 'fix' the problem.

don't do it. the CoC works. if anyone complains about something that doesn't violate the CoC, then they are being far too nitpicky, and it'd be like banning movies at the whim of focus on the family. do not litsten to extremists. for every person complaining about how things are going, there is a me or a buff, who thinks we should be able to let the 4 letter words fly.

if me and buff are wrong in that other thread, the people complaining about how things are NOW are just as wrong as us. the CoC is legit, this thread is necessary.

TXBRONC
10-04-2010, 10:45 PM
That's the reason for this thread. Most of it does not break the letter of the law, so there is little that the mod team can do unless we are going to create new rules or start to apply subjective modding to 'fix' the problem.

IIRC you and the mods have given out 3 day bans to people who have violated the spirit of law.

CoachChaz
10-04-2010, 10:46 PM
Its simple. If the constant whining and bickering becomes completely boring, just do what I did and stop posting. I still read from time to time, but I've found better things to do with my time than listen to grown men cry. Sorry if that's baiting, but Im Polish and apparently have a reputation that precedes me
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

Tned
10-04-2010, 10:49 PM
IIRC you and the mods have given out 3 day bans to people who have violated the spirit of law.

To the best of my knowledge, that has only happened once when two people showed a complete lack of class and created a massive disruption to the forum (along with a few other things).

As a rule, people are not banned for violating the spirit of the law, and don't get banned for breaking the letter of the law unless they do it multiple times and are warned multiple, multiple times.

TXBRONC
10-04-2010, 11:00 PM
Its simple. If the constant whining and bickering becomes completely boring, just do what I did and stop posting. I still read from time to time, but I've found better things to do with my time than listen to grown men cry. Sorry if that's baiting, but Im Polish and apparently have a reputation that precedes me
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

Everyone has a cross to bare. :D

BeefStew25
10-04-2010, 11:05 PM
Its simple. If the constant whining and bickering becomes completely boring, just do what I did and stop posting. I still read from time to time, but I've found better things to do with my time than listen to grown men cry. Sorry if that's baiting, but Im Polish and apparently have a reputation that precedes me
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

See, dude, that is wrong. We need you here.

sneakers
10-04-2010, 11:08 PM
We could just ban everyone until after the season is over.

Northman
10-04-2010, 11:14 PM
We could just ban everyone until after the season is over.


Its cool, ill hold the fort down until you guys come back. :D

Grover
10-04-2010, 11:33 PM
I frequent a stereo/audio related hobbyist site called audioasylum.com. One of their posting rules is as follows:

C. No flames, personal attacks or contentious off-topic comments: The idea is to make this a pleasant environment to discuss audio, not a schoolyard, or name-calling and rock-throwing festival.


Substitute Broncos Football for "audio", and I think you've got the making of a solution. Also, that site has a moderator for each of its Forums. And each post has an "alert moderator" button, that can be used if any of the members of the forum feel that any particular post violates any of the posting rules.

Individual posts are deleted if they violate the rules. Moderators can enforce a three day cooling off period for repeated offenders (after personal email contacts with the offending member), and permanent bans are possible.

The above solutions may sound harsh to some, but I believe that you can disagree, have discussions of alternate viewpoints, and hold civil conversations without resorting to derailing threads with insults and personal attacks.

Day1BroncoFan
10-05-2010, 12:28 AM
When you have more than one person involved in something there will be disagreements. I even disagree with myself sometimes. :D

Really, I don't have a problem with it although some of it is petty and childish. I can tell which posts I will skip after the first few words most of the time and certainly by the first few sentences.

There is no way to prevent people from becoming passionate about something they are passionate about.

If you want to cut all the bickering then ban and delete, otherwise let it go on. You can't make everyone happy.

atwater27
10-05-2010, 12:36 AM
Ok, normally a thread like this would go in the Town Hall forum, but due to the fact it effects everyone posting or lurking (people that read, but don't post) within Broncos Talk, I felt the thread needed the full visibility of Broncos Talk.

I think everyone would agree that BroncosForums, like many other boards right now, is not a very fun place to hang out. We have a problem where a lot of people drew lines in the sand in the first six months or so after Shanahan was fired and McDaniels was hired, and have refused to budge since that time.

In VERY broad terms, we have most posters falling into one of three categories:


McDaniels supporters, and by extension, often posting negatively about past Broncos players and coaches.
McDaniels critics, and by extension, often posting positively about past Broncos players and coaches.
People stuck in the middle of the two warring factions listed above.


With only a few exceptions, most people on here seem to agree that the snipping, sniping, baiting, bashing, flaming, fighting and such doesn't make this a very fun place to hang out. Neither wins nor losses seem to change the environment.

Lots of people have voiced frustration about the the state of things on BroncosForums. We have had a number of quality posters take temporary or permanent breaks from BF, because they just couldn't deal with the fighting that happens in nearly every thread.

One phenomenon that I think is important that we are all aware of and accept as real is that posters from those different groups above (and I imagine sub-groups that aren't quite at the extremes and even people in group 3 that lean one way or the other) are often looking at the exact same threads, and seeing different reasons for why a thread goes in the toilet. Group one typically believes that group 2 can't let go of Shanahan and the players that are gone, and therefore constantly brings them up in threads that have nothing to do with them. Group 2 believes that group 1 constantly brings up and attacks Shanahan and the former players as a means of defending McDaniels and the current players, or baiting group 2. We had a discussion among a few mods today about these very different perceptions, and the fact that two people can view the exact same thread, but reach completely opposite conclusions as to who or what caused it to go off topic and turn to crap (for lack of a better word).

So, my questions to you are:

What can we as a community do to get past the divide and make this a more enjoyable place to talk about our Broncos?

What can the mod team and I do to help us get to that point?

Feel free to give your thoughts on those two questions, as well as addressing anything I didn't cover.

Thanks

T

I guess I will speak from my point of view...

I got no problem if someone doesn't like Cutler, Shanahan or any other former Bronco. If they bring up a respecable thread about the subject, I will participate in a civil manner.

My problem is when it turns into 'Cutler is a whiner with a sore vag', or Hillis is stupid, or Shanahan is a piece of shit or "I hate X player so I hope he gets hurt and dies" or whatever. I have said before I feel we should not call ex broncos or coaches names, as it will piss off half the members. And when the brass says it doesn't violate the rules, that's fine and dandy but you'll keep on having the same problems if you allow it. Because people like me won't just let it go without defending them.

I don't call Josh McDaniels names, (at least in a long time) for this reason. I'd appreciate it if I didn't have to read about how much of a bitch ass douchenozzle Cutler is, A dumb useless hick fullback that Hillis is, a washed up loser that Shanahan is or a malcontent traitor that Scheffler is. All it is is baiting pure and simple.

Canmore
10-05-2010, 01:55 AM
I don't see a viable solution unless the mods want to get heavy handed and I don't know that that would be a good thing. It's too bad people can't be more civil, but some posters get carried away behind a keyboard.

dogfish
10-05-2010, 02:14 AM
I don't call Josh McDaniels names, (at least in a long time) for this reason. I'd appreciate it if I didn't have to read about how much of a bitch ass douchenozzle Cutler is, A dumb useless hick fullback that Hillis is, a washed up loser that Shanahan is or a malcontent traitor that Scheffler is. All it is is baiting pure and simple.

granted, i get tired of some of that stuff too, but IS it really baiting in most cases? in some cases, absolutely-- but a lot of the time, what makes it "baiting," rather than someone just plain stating their opinion? maybe they really do just think cutler is a douchenozzle. . .

i have no idea what you say in P+R, but i'm sure you aren't in there lobbing verbal boquets at pelosi et al, right? IMO, the problem is when people take comments about public figures personally, and respond accordingly-- that's when most if not all of the issues occur. . . as one example, if the "pro mcdaniels" agenda peeps could handle hearing criticism of that stupid alphonso smith trade, there would be considerably less acrimony. . .

but no, criticize that pick, and invariably somebody has to respond with "well shanahan wasted picks!" nurrrr!! no shit, that's why he doesn't work here anymore-- it doesn't do a thing to make it cool for josh to do it. . . :frusty:

at some point don't people need to stop TAKING the damn bait instead of complaining about it?


:whoknows:

Jaws
10-05-2010, 03:00 AM
C. No flames, personal attacks or contentious off-topic comments: The idea is to make this a pleasant environment to discuss audio, not a schoolyard, or name-calling and rock-throwing festival.

I agree with Grover, some sort of amenment to the CoC along similar lines to the above could be helpful.

I'm also with Dogfish on the fact that people need to stop taking the bait.
Ignore attention seeking twits.
Don't quote them.
Don't give them the time of day.
If they are going to be childish, don't sink to the same level.
Best way to make them seem insignificant is not to respond at all.

Elevation inc
10-05-2010, 04:16 AM
That's the reason for this thread. Most of it does not break the letter of the law, so there is little that the mod team can do unless we are going to create new rules or start to apply subjective modding to 'fix' the problem.

add a rule to the COC called the grow up rule:lol: that should give some kind of le-way right????:lol:

Elevation inc
10-05-2010, 04:18 AM
granted, i get tired of some of that stuff too, but IS it really baiting in most cases? in some cases, absolutely-- but a lot of the time, what makes it "baiting," rather than someone just plain stating their opinion? maybe they really do just think cutler is a douchenozzle. . .

i have no idea what you say in P+R, but i'm sure you aren't in there lobbing verbal boquets at pelosi et al, right? IMO, the problem is when people take comments about public figures personally, and respond accordingly-- that's when most if not all of the issues occur. . . as one example, if the "pro mcdaniels" agenda peeps could handle hearing criticism of that stupid alphonso smith trade, there would be considerably less acrimony. . .

but no, criticize that pick, and invariably somebody has to respond with "well shanahan wasted picks!" nurrrr!! no shit, that's why he doesn't work here anymore-- it doesn't do a thing to make it cool for josh to do it. . . :frusty:

at some point don't people need to stop TAKING the damn bait instead of complaining about it?


:whoknows:



i agree completely, good post Dog......shoot i took the bait a few times it certainly did me no good.....

Dreadnought
10-05-2010, 06:16 AM
Its simple. If the constant whining and bickering becomes completely boring, just do what I did and stop posting. I still read from time to time, but I've found better things to do with my time than listen to grown men cry. Sorry if that's baiting, but Im Polish and apparently have a reputation that precedes me
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

See, now this highlights the problem perfectly. If you'll allow me to pay you a compliment, you are one of the best football commentators on this board. When things get too stupid for you to want to post here then we have a problem, because the board sucks just that much more. You are not the only first rate football poster who has essentially stopped posting because of the levels of insults and assorted Middle school asshattery we are seeing of late. Its not a fair trade when guys like you and G-Money stop posting and we get some loudmouthed doofuses in return. Its like a Dan Snyder trade.

broncophan
10-05-2010, 06:38 AM
....I didn't think things were THAT bad here....I really try not to give anyone "too hard" of a time if their post comes across to me in a way that I don't agree with....and for the most part....I feel that others have been fair with me as well.

Since this board has been here....rarely do I go to "broncos country"...or whatever it is called.....because....well.....there were just alot of posters over there that were just looking to stir up crap.....I just don't see that over here...too much.
Maybe moderators or others feel differently....because they deal with all the crap...etc.

Living here in Ohio....I am just happy to have a place to come and talk bronco football etc.....not too many around here follow the broncos......
GO BRONCOS!!

HORSEPOWER 56
10-05-2010, 07:16 AM
All I really have to say (and I'm relatively thick skinned) is that the debates don't bother me and they are going to continue as long as there are people with a difference of opinion. Personal attacks have always been a no-no and it should stay that way, but heated debates between folks with different opinions is just a way of life. Some will try to abuse it (like Tned's Internet Dickwad theory sig) but most folks here, even if they differ in opinion, are still civil with each other.

I worry more about the over-regulation that has run rampant on that other board that penalizes those who don't always carry the party line and anyone who says anything negative is continually ganged up on and even cited for "infractions" ending up over here because of a few sensitive posters. Basically over there, if you're not wearing "Orange Colored Glasses" you quickly become a target of the mob (even personal attacks are overlooked as long as they carry the party line) who has the complete backing of the moderators.

There's a definite reason I spend almost all of my time here instead of there. I like it here and I don't want it to change.

Tned
10-05-2010, 07:39 AM
All I really have to say (and I'm relatively thick skinned) is that the debates don't bother me and they are going to continue as long as there are people with a difference of opinion. Personal attacks have always been a no-no and it should stay that way, but heated debates between folks with different opinions is just a way of life. Some will try to abuse it (like Tned's Internet Dickwad theory sig) but most folks here, even if they differ in opinion, are still civil with each other.


For those that didn't see it when it was in my sig for a while:

http://www.broncosforums.com/downloads/greaterdickwad.jpg

sneakers
10-05-2010, 07:45 AM
Anytime someone intentionally posts a trolling post or thread, ban them for a while and put this in their signature:

http://birdofparadox.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/arguecat.jpg

atwater27
10-05-2010, 08:18 AM
i have no idea what you say in P+R, but i'm sure you aren't in there lobbing verbal boquets at pelosi et al, right? :

That is an opt in forum. This isn't.

Shazam!
10-05-2010, 08:31 AM
I dont think it's a whole thread-worthy problem.

People will debate and have opinions.

This is a forum after all.

Traveler
10-05-2010, 08:36 AM
Not sure there is much that can be done unless things get personal in nature.

Then and only then should the mods step in with warning/banning as necessary.

BroncoNut
10-05-2010, 08:38 AM
It's a forum on the internet. You can't "fix" the problems you're describing.

JMO.

Then you are part of the problem. There's no such word as can't when there are problems that need resolution

haven't read the first post, but that's just my reactionary take

smith49
10-05-2010, 08:44 AM
i know that i dont post a lot in here, but i am here a lot and i read a lot of threads and posts. i enjoy the fact that there is a diversity of opinions. i often dissagree with others opionions, although i rarely post what is on my mind. however, i dont think that others should not post thier opinions like i sometimes choose not to.

what i think should happen here is that we should leave the format of these boards as are. i just think that those that choose to post opinions and those that choose to disagree with those opinions need to do just that. post your opinion, be ok with the fact that someone doesnt see things the way you do, get over it. do not go and destroy someone or belittle them just because you disagree with them. keep it civil and have fun with it. there is no reason to make comments and posts that make others feel stupid or outcast.

its just my opinion, i see people fighting about some stupid shit in here all the time. sometimes its pathetic the way we treat each other. im not saying its bad to call someone out if they are full of crap or something, im just saying that we should do it in a way that is not harsh or belittling. as you can tell, my spelling and grammer are horrible, but im sure someone will let me know how stupid i am.

i just think if we try and have some respect for others and thier opinions, right or wrong, this place would be an even better place to hang out then it allready is. dissagree with me all you want, just dont be a complete duche about it.

BroncoNut
10-05-2010, 08:49 AM
well, I guess ignorance is bliss with my experience on this. Either that or age and experience are finally kicking in and I can more effectively recognize which posts to read and which to dismiss. Personally, if anyone really cares, I find most any rational and intelligent take interesting. Makes things interesting. Ah, call me a fencesitter. Wait, don't do that, I might go off :lol:

Tned
10-05-2010, 09:14 AM
i know that i dont post a lot in here, but i am here a lot and i read a lot of threads and posts. i enjoy the fact that there is a diversity of opinions. i often dissagree with others opionions, although i rarely post what is on my mind. however, i dont think that others should not post thier opinions like i sometimes choose not to.

what i think should happen here is that we should leave the format of these boards as are. i just think that those that choose to post opinions and those that choose to disagree with those opinions need to do just that. post your opinion, be ok with the fact that someone doesnt see things the way you do, get over it. do not go and destroy someone or belittle them just because you disagree with them. keep it civil and have fun with it. there is no reason to make comments and posts that make others feel stupid or outcast.

its just my opinion, i see people fighting about some stupid shit in here all the time. sometimes its pathetic the way we treat each other. im not saying its bad to call someone out if they are full of crap or something, im just saying that we should do it in a way that is not harsh or belittling. as you can tell, my spelling and grammer are horrible, but im sure someone will let me know how stupid i am.

i just think if we try and have some respect for others and thier opinions, right or wrong, this place would be an even better place to hang out then it allready is. dissagree with me all you want, just dont be a complete duche about it.

I have to say that this post is worthy of quoting. The entire post was great, IMO, but I bolded one section of it. Regardless of which camp you fall in, can anyone really disagree with what Smith49 wrote here?

ydave77
10-05-2010, 09:23 AM
As an infrequent (very infrequent poster), but previously heavy reader, I agree the board has gotten frustrating to read. Maybe my opinion doesnt matter since I dont post much (excpet to Tned, if the hits help his ad rates), but there is a right and wrong way to express your opinion.

On another note I don't quite understand why pro-McD means you have to be anti-Shanahan (I am not in the least, Shanahan's farewell presser, made me a lifelong Shanny fan). I don't know why pro Orton, means you have to be anti-Cutler (I do think Cutler is a whiny b$@^, but it doesnt diminish Shanny in any way to think that, and it doesnt mean I don't think McD couldn't have handled a delicate situation better when he first came here). Its just irksome every comment gets back to defending or bashing McD.

Just like with politics, people have largely become too polarized to either pro McD, or Anti McD. Perhaps its the vocal minority effect, but there are several frequent posters who have dug in their heels, and cannot evaluate anything objectively. Not everything McD does is 100% wrong, or 100% right.

A prime example of someone I think doing it the right way, is Northman. He is obviously not in love with McD...yet, but even if he frequently criticizes him, he can see where he has helped the team, and see the things he does right as well.

My piece.

Denver Native (Carol)
10-05-2010, 09:54 AM
I have to say that this post is worthy of quoting. The entire post was great, IMO, but I bolded one section of it. Regardless of which camp you fall in, can anyone really disagree with what Smith49 wrote here?

From smith49's post, which you bolded:

"i just think that those that choose to post opinions and those that choose to disagree with those opinions need to do just that. post your opinion, be ok with the fact that someone doesnt see things the way you do, get over it. do not go and destroy someone or belittle them just because you disagree with them. keep it civil and have fun with it. there is no reason to make comments and posts that make others feel stupid or outcast."

There is nothing wrong with someone having a different opinion than someone else - i.e. they don't see things the way you do. The problem is HOW those differences are expressed, which many times turn into nothing but personal attacks, name calling, etc.

That is what needs to be dealt with. And there are ways, in the COC, to deal with this.

Mike
10-05-2010, 10:13 AM
I dont think it's a whole thread-worthy problem.

People will debate and have opinions.

This is a forum after all.

The problem isn't with debate and difference of opinion. That is what keeps the forums going. The problem lies in the way those opinions are being expressed.

Tned
10-05-2010, 10:23 AM
From smith49's post, which you bolded:

"i just think that those that choose to post opinions and those that choose to disagree with those opinions need to do just that. post your opinion, be ok with the fact that someone doesnt see things the way you do, get over it. do not go and destroy someone or belittle them just because you disagree with them. keep it civil and have fun with it. there is no reason to make comments and posts that make others feel stupid or outcast."

There is nothing wrong with someone having a different opinion than someone else - i.e. they don't see things the way you do. The problem is HOW those differences are expressed, which many times turn into nothing but personal attacks, name calling, etc.

That is what needs to be dealt with. And there are ways, in the COC, to deal with this.

If you have ideas, this is the place to share them. What are the ways to deal with it within the rules?

Northman
10-05-2010, 10:27 AM
Anytime someone intentionally posts a trolling post or thread, ban them for a while and put this in their signature:

http://birdofparadox.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/arguecat.jpg


Puuurrrrrfect.

Cugel
10-05-2010, 10:28 AM
Nothing! Unless you can change the coach or his decisions, nothing can be done. This place and the activity here takes place almost exclusively based on something with the team: actions, inactions, abilities and inabilities. Orton made a throw or a pick!

Anytime you have a coach come in and make as many moves as bold and swift as they were, there will be a fracturing of the fan base especially after having the same coach for so long. . These boards are a perfect representation of our fan base. What we have here isn't relegated to just these forums. It happens in bars and anyother place the Broncos are talked about.

I guess you have to evaluate your constitution and philosophy for your mods. Do you want a heavily moderated board? Do you want to apply ground rules for every thread?

Or PM every member?

At the end of the day I think this is a great place. Sometimes you have to have a thick skin. However, it is gaining in popularity and traffic. I think that says a lot.

100% Agree! Why do Moderators constantly think they have to CENSOR free speech in order to make the boards "a fun place."

It's NOT SUPPOSED TO BE A "FUN PLACE" when the team loses. Or if the team is going in a direction you don't like.

And NOBODY is required to check their opinions at the door to avoid offending some wilting violet. If you have an opinion, get used to the reality that not everybody may agree.

And that goes BOTH ways! For McDaniels supporters as well as critics!

I don't bother to post on the official boards anymore because of the heavy censorship. They were LOOKING for ways to ban you if you criticize anything. It's all "fluffy-happy talk" between adolescents.

If you can't take the criticism, then don't post. (And NO! That doesn't mean people have to FLAME!!! each other). When you descend to PERSONAL attacks, then that crosses a line.

I.e. "Your man-crush on Cutler is showing." Or, "You wanna be Neck-beard's love slave!"

There's no need for PERSONAL insults. But, some people can't make logical ARGUMENTS without attacking the PERSON.

Aside from that, everything should be allowed.

You think anybody who loves Orton is an "idiot" fine! Just don't point the finger at anybody.

You think anybody who questions Tebow is a fool. O.K.

It may get tedious, but get used to it.

The only way to "stop it" is to have moderators heavily censor the board.

And then people will simply stop coming here.

You might have noticed that traffic is way UP. That's because this board is a refuge for people who feel stifled on the official board.

Personally, I'm an adult. I don't care if people criticize my ideas. I don't particularly like being FLAMED, but nobody much does.

I'm not so insecure that somebody violently disagreeing with my OPINION is going to ruin my day.

For the "fainting Nancies" among us, I suggest they use a forum with "no negative comments."

You know and I know there won't be much traffic there, but the few people who want that can just go there and hang out with others who share their views without fear of having those views criticized.

As long as the TEAM is controversial, there's going to be CONTROVERSY reflected on these boards! Period.

Moderators! Get Used To It Or Fold Up Shop And Close The Boards!

Cugel
10-05-2010, 10:32 AM
The problem isn't with debate and difference of opinion. That is what keeps the forums going. The problem lies in the way those opinions are being expressed.

All the mods have to do is SHUT DOWN FLAME WARS!!

No PERSONAL attacks. Attacks on IDEAS are fine. Period.

People need to get the difference between:

"Tebow is a worthless God-boy!" and "YOU are a worthless God-boy!" (because you support Tebow).

AS long as people identify THEMSELVES with their opinions they are going to resent people challenging them. Well, TOUGH!

Get used to it! Not everybody is going to agree with you 100% of the time.

It's a free country and people are entitled to their ideas, even if those ideas strike you as "stupid." :salute:

Ravage!!!
10-05-2010, 10:43 AM
History has a lot to do on how certain opinions are received and/taken, in a lot of cases.

When certain posters post a "side handed" remark about an ex-player or ex-coach, they will get a stronger response because of their remarks/opinions/comments on the same subject in the past. If I am a poster that has backed Shanahan, Cutler, Marshall, Scheffler or Hillis in the past... anytime I (and using me as an example so that I'm not attacking anyone, NOT because I feel "wronged" or in anyway been treated unfairly) post something positive about them, then inevitably will assume I'm doing this to attacking McD because of critical remarks of him in the past.

But I know, that I respond the same way with certain posters because of THEIR past postings. Its a tight community. There are posters here that we have posted with for YEARS, whether it be this board or the other. We know where the other person stands, we know where they stood, and we know what their opinions have been about a subject over that long time period. So I think its hard for us simply to wipe away what we feel we know, and as a result we "assume" where they are going (or trying to take the topic) when we read certain comments about certain people (whether that be about past or present players and coaches).

I don't think we can erase the that from happening, because thats part of what makes this a tight community, history.

I personally think, that the biggest problem we have is that any criticisms of any player, past or present, are taken personally (because we know what their opinion has been for the last number of years). As a result, people INTENTIONALLY use that to deflect the subject by insulting/criticising someone that they KNOW that person likes. Its the "whats good for the goose good for the gander" mentality. Its the "if you are going to make fun of my friend, i'm going to make fun of yours."

How does a board keep that from happening? How do we erase the memories and debates we've had over the years? I don't think we can, nor do I think anyone is saying we should. I'm just typing what I see as to why certain debates happen with the same people, about the same subjects. I know, very well, that I have been a contributor to that problem.

I agree with many of the posts above. You know what comments to read from the first sentence (usually), or because of whom is posting them, and can skip them. I know there are several posters that I choose not to read because I feel their posts are always intentionally to start arguments, just as I know I'm ignored by some people because my online typing can come across as being combative. But I'm working on all the above. As time goes on, I'm ignoring more and more of the side comments or the use of past coaches to defend any criticisms.

Time really does heal all wounds. This fan-base has been wounded. Some feel the injuries are "stab wounds" that will run deep, and others feel the injures are welcome "incisions" that are what was needed. Those will heal either way, eventually.

Northman
10-05-2010, 10:51 AM
But I know, that I respond the same way with certain posters because of THEIR past postings.

Great point, but this is why ive gone and tried to change my posting habits. Im not changing my stance on how i perceive things but ive changed the way ive conveyed them. For the last few months ive gone back and forth with Jrwiz and it was starting to get ugly because of all the baiting and potshots taken at one another. But, we finally hashed it out in PM's and came to an understanding that we both would work on improving our posting styles to not only treat each other better but help the board from becoming a cesspool. Its not always easy because there are still those who like the drama and want the fighting to keep going but really as members we can only control what we do on here. I hate more restrictions just like the next guy but again, there only a handful of people who want to continually break the rules so i do think the mods should tighten the reigns with those who do that until the members get on board and start treating each other better. We really have no one to blame but ourselves at this point.

Denver Native (Carol)
10-05-2010, 10:54 AM
If you have ideas, this is the place to share them. What are the ways to deal with it within the rules?

In my post which you quoted I stated name calling, personal attacks. In the COC:

2. No Flaming, baiting or harassing. Regardless of whether you like a poster or a point being made, do not resort to flaming and harassing that poster. Don’t post “flame-bait”. That is a post just to irritate members or designed to get a reaction from another poster. This type of posting behavior will be dealt with in much the same manner as personal attacks.

3. No threats, name calling, ethnic or racist remarks, gender harassment or other type of posts that attack another poster or posters.

Maybe I am missing something here :confused:

DenBronx
10-05-2010, 11:06 AM
This is really petty people.


I think the forums are just fine the way they are. I like heated discussions. If this turns into some Broncos Country fairy tale crap I won't post here as much. Not everything is peaches and cream.

Maybe just make a positive only section and let the powderpuffs all act like it's Christmas there.

#1 There is a CoC.
#2 Mods are supposed to monitor the post.
#3 Suspend those that continually break the rules of the CoC


Don't know why we have to go farther then that? Not sure why this is an issue?

So why do you need to change anything? Let's not turn everyone into a bunch of little robots. I like everyone's opinions. Let's just all do a better job at refraining from personal attacks.

That's really the bottom line. Cuz DenBronx said so.

The Glue Factory
10-05-2010, 11:08 AM
As Carol has so effectively done, I think the CoC was well-written and provides for mods to effectively police the forums. I, further, think the mods are looking for a clearly defined line when posts have become baiting, threatening, etc. That's hard to say as it depends on the person writing and the person reading. Each post has a button to notify a moderator that it may be inappropriate.

Maybe we "the public" need to police our own affairs better and report things more often. As Ravage mentioned, taking things offline helps a lot too. I've come across those sections of threads where two people start hashing things out in public. Perhaps a gentle hint via PM encouraging each to take the discussion to PMs would help?

TheDave
10-05-2010, 11:11 AM
I can't believe a thread about "stopping internet pissing matches" is 5+ pages long and hasn't devolved into another pissing match.

That's got to be a record somewhere...

LRtagger
10-05-2010, 11:11 AM
People need to start using the "report post" feature and let the mods do their jobs...instead of taking it upon themselves to tell other people their posts are out of line or to start taking personal shots. That's what turns threads into poop.

If a posts offends you, report it. If the post is deemed offensive by the mods, then the mods can take appropriate action.

silkamilkamonico
10-05-2010, 11:14 AM
All the mods have to do is SHUT DOWN FLAME WARS!!

No PERSONAL attacks. Attacks on IDEAS are fine. Period.

People need to get the difference between:

"Tebow is a worthless God-boy!" and "YOU are a worthless God-boy!" (because you support Tebow).

AS long as people identify THEMSELVES with their opinions they are going to resent people challenging them. Well, TOUGH!

Get used to it! Not everybody is going to agree with you 100% of the time.

It's a free country and people are entitled to their ideas, even if those ideas strike you as "stupid." :salute:

http://madtown.cc/d/27616-1/Slow-Clap.gif

DenBronx
10-05-2010, 11:23 AM
All the mods have to do is SHUT DOWN FLAME WARS!!

No PERSONAL attacks. Attacks on IDEAS are fine. Period.

People need to get the difference between:

"Tebow is a worthless God-boy!" and "YOU are a worthless God-boy!" (because you support Tebow).

AS long as people identify THEMSELVES with their opinions they are going to resent people challenging them. Well, TOUGH!

Get used to it! Not everybody is going to agree with you 100% of the time.

It's a free country and people are entitled to their ideas, even if those ideas strike you as "stupid." :salute:


^^^^

this

Gimpygod
10-05-2010, 12:15 PM
I have a couple of questions: is overall readership/posting down since all of the McDaniels moves and particularly the late-season collapse? And I'm not particularly sure how to quantify that because I see a lot less diversity regarding who is posting while there still may be an overall increase in number of posts all on the shoulders of just a few people. (Particularly funny/ironic because one posters extols the virtues of remaining silent in quotes but posts well over 3000 times in the last month or so… Hilarious). I believe the same phenomenon is happening in ticket sales, there are actually commercials were the Broncos organization is trying to sell season tickets… This is an odd phenomenon because one would usually have to wait for a death to obtain season tickets for the Broncos. To me this indicates McDaniels is extremely polarizing and has indeed hurt Broncos nation and detracted from fandom. The solution is going to be for the Broncos to win a lot of games, not just make do. Right or wrong in a lot of people were alienated when a lot of their favorites were sent packing to "make the Broncos better" and if they don't get better (immediately) this leads to a lot of dissatisfaction which will manifest in negative posting and hard feelings towards the organization overall

my second question is, was making an all happy place very effective? Seems to me it is a ghost town in there and very few are interested in posting. What if we made a full contact no holds barred Broncos section where we can tell a guy/girl what we really think about his mom and Broncos opinions? A place where timid little Nancy boys need not apply. Call it the open corral.

Elevation inc
10-05-2010, 12:16 PM
As Carol has so effectively done, I think the CoC was well-written and provides for mods to effectively police the forums. I, further, think the mods are looking for a clearly defined line when posts have become baiting, threatening, etc. That's hard to say as it depends on the person writing and the person reading. Each post has a button to notify a moderator that it may be inappropriate.

Maybe we "the public" need to police our own affairs better and report things more often. As Ravage mentioned, taking things offline helps a lot too. I've come across those sections of threads where two people start hashing things out in public. Perhaps a gentle hint via PM encouraging each to take the discussion to PMs would help?

i agree with this fully, in the gameday thread a couple memebers and I had a pissing match for a bit kinda disrupted the whole mojo of the win....but the fact is, that is probally a unecessary discussion in that thread for broncos talk after a win...once taken to PM everything was relatively hashed, a hint or a reminder to take it to Pm if it gets personal or uneeded could be a big help.....or just not going that route to begin with

maybe if we all dont take comments on either side of the debate personal and just accept differing viewpoints and help remind each otehr without getting personal in the general public it will amke posting and reading more enjoyable for all....

Northman
10-05-2010, 12:34 PM
my second question is, was making an all happy place very effective? Seems to me it is a ghost town in there and very few are interested in posting.


I have to say ive noticed that too. The positive only gameday thread only gets used by a handful of posters and generally i see them posting in the regular gameday thread as well so really it holds no real purpose to me which is why im glad the positive only forum didnt go through. There's just not enough traffic in there to justify it. Seems to me that most people still want the differing opinions overall. That of course without the flaming.

Gimpygod
10-05-2010, 12:40 PM
no man, internet fight. it's like live action role-playing.


for example:


i just totally punched buff in the eyeball super hard. now he has to pretend to have a black eye for 3 whole weeks (buff doesn't have enough iron in his diet, so his bruises linger).

also, i have a +3 strike shield, but am vulnerable to verbal attacks concerning my big nose.

you are also vulnerable to… LIGHTNING BOLT! You did not see that coming brother! Please make a saving throw to see if you die immediately.

Elevation inc
10-05-2010, 12:40 PM
I have to say ive noticed that too. The positive only gameday thread only gets used by a handful of posters and generally i see them posting in the regular gameday thread as well so really it holds no real purpose to me which is why im glad the positive only forum didnt go through. There's just not enough traffic in there to justify it. Seems to me that most people still want the differing opinions overall. That of course without the flaming.

its always been like that which is why a forum for positive only doesnt need to be created its a waste of space(IMO) we all just need to clean up the way we post and not get so personally tied to things.....i notcie a big difference when people post without getting personal, Im sure many others do as well....

shank
10-05-2010, 12:53 PM
you are also vulnerable to… LIGHTNING BOLT! You did not see that coming brother! Please make a saving throw to see if you die immediately.
i rolled a natural 18, which allows me the time to report your post for personal attack.

rationalfan
10-05-2010, 01:02 PM
i'm late the discussion. and i'll admit i haven't read 94 percent of these posts. but what's wrong the philosophical divide? people have the right to disagree and argue. besides, the only way that changes is if this board ISN'T on the internet.

my biggest complaint about the board is that it seems like the members' moron quotient went up after tebow was drafted. true? i don't know. but anecdotally it feels that way. my theory is that if tebow was traded to the 49ers tomorrow the IQ of this board increases by 29 percent.

also, i HATE posts perpetuating the idea of east coast bias. does that pertain this to thread? no. i'm just venting.

Lonestar
10-05-2010, 01:08 PM
Great point, but this is why ive gone and tried to change my posting habits. Im not changing my stance on how i perceive things but ive changed the way ive conveyed them. For the last few months ive gone back and forth with Jrwiz and it was starting to get ugly because of all the baiting and potshots taken at one another. But, we finally hashed it out in PM's and came to an understanding that we both would work on improving our posting styles to not only treat each other better but help the board from becoming a cesspool. Its not always easy because there are still those who like the drama and want the fighting to keep going but really as members we can only control what we do on here. I hate more restrictions just like the next guy but again, there only a handful of people who want to continually break the rules so i do think the mods should tighten the reigns with those who do that until the members get on board and start treating each other better. We really have no one to blame but ourselves at this point.


North and I see eye to eye on very few things that are broncos. As always he is wrong and I am right. :laugh::laugh::laugh:

But we have made a conscious effort over the past few weeks to stay away from "baiting". We have had many PM's between us and still have not resolved them. But we are not going after each other in BT.

Yet many folks can't forget past comments made by either of us and seem to bait us on those stands. For the most part I have used the ignore function to NOT see them. I suggest more folks do this also.

We all know that there are a few folks that are just so out there with hate and discontent they are not worth reading.

Either consciously chose not to read them, place them on Iggy OR grow thicker skin.

Denver Native (Carol)
10-05-2010, 01:28 PM
This is really petty people.


I think the forums are just fine the way they are. I like heated discussions. If this turns into some Broncos Country fairy tale crap I won't post here as much. Not everything is peaches and cream.

Maybe just make a positive only section and let the powderpuffs all act like it's Christmas there.

#1 There is a CoC.
#2 Mods are supposed to monitor the post.
#3 Suspend those that continually break the rules of the CoC


Don't know why we have to go farther then that? Not sure why this is an issue?

So why do you need to change anything? Let's not turn everyone into a bunch of little robots. I like everyone's opinions. Let's just all do a better job at refraining from personal attacks.

That's really the bottom line. Cuz DenBronx said so.

So why do you need to change anything

Here is some of what Tned posted in his original thread, and even some of the following pertains to active members on BF:

"With only a few exceptions, most people on here seem to agree that the snipping, sniping, baiting, bashing, flaming, fighting and such doesn't make this a very fun place to hang out. Neither wins nor losses seem to change the environment.

Lots of people have voiced frustration about the the state of things on BroncosForums. We have had a number of quality posters take temporary or permanent breaks from BF, because they just couldn't deal with the fighting that happens in nearly every thread."

As Tned stated - This problem is not ONLY affecting current members, except for a few, but also a number of quality posters who have either taken a temporary or permanent break from BF, because they just couldn't deal with the fighting that happens in nearly every thread.

With what Tned posted, there is a MAJOR problem.

Tned
10-05-2010, 01:42 PM
100% Agree! Why do Moderators constantly think they have to CENSOR free speech in order to make the boards "a fun place."

...

Moderators! Get Used To It Or Fold Up Shop And Close The Boards!


Let me be clear, this has nothing to do with what the "moderators want", this is in reaction to months and months and months of voiced frustration from long time BF members about how so many threads spiral into two sides sniping at each other.

This message board has ALL it's rules and ALL it's decisions driven by member feedback. When we have that many members voicing concern and frustration about what they consider a problem, then as a community we need to talk about it and see if as a whole, the community thinks something has to be done to change the tone of posts.


I have a couple of questions: is overall readership/posting down since all of the McDaniels moves and particularly the late-season collapse? And I'm not particularly sure how to quantify that because I see a lot less diversity regarding who is posting while there still may be an overall increase in number of posts all on the shoulders of just a few people. (Particularly funny/ironic because one posters extols the virtues of remaining silent in quotes but posts well over 3000 times in the last month or so… Hilarious). I believe the same phenomenon is happening in ticket sales, there are actually commercials were the Broncos organization is trying to sell season tickets… This is an odd phenomenon because one would usually have to wait for a death to obtain season tickets for the Broncos. To me this indicates McDaniels is extremely polarizing and has indeed hurt Broncos nation and detracted from fandom. The solution is going to be for the Broncos to win a lot of games, not just make do. Right or wrong in a lot of people were alienated when a lot of their favorites were sent packing to "make the Broncos better" and if they don't get better (immediately) this leads to a lot of dissatisfaction which will manifest in negative posting and hard feelings towards the organization overall


Compared to the end of the Shanahan era and now, active members have dropped from a peak of about 500 to 375 or so. People that visit the site, but not login, have dropped as well, but not as much as the drop in people that login and post.

I believe, but have no way to quantify, that there are two factors for the drop. First, a lot of people have gotten frustrated with the losing (including the '08 collapse), but also some people don't like to risk getting slammed, so some that used to post now maybe lurk. Second, a lot of people that used to turn to forums for news and info, now use Twitter and other sources.

Personally, and I think most would agree, I don't think we have to be the biggest board on the Net, as long as we have enough activity that when we come on, there is enough active discussions going to to keep things interesting.

gnomeflinger
10-05-2010, 01:54 PM
You can say "oh it's just a few people" who have left the group, but those few people matter. They added many good things to this board, and not just in the football talk. They are funny and smart and have a quick wit which you need in the Red Zone. At times they acted like complete asses, but don't we all? Okay, maybe there are a few of us who don't (thinking of pn, sharkie, sparkie, scott.475, gimpygod, digitaljim, to name a few).

They may not come back, and that is sad that a few immature people had to go and poo in the pool. I still say that there is a time and a place for being an ass, but also think "would I say this to their face?" There are people behind these Forum handles. With people come feelings and if they're are attacked more than once, that is bullying and they're not going to be here.

So to those who are pooping in the pool, knock that shit off and grow up a little bit. This is not junior high. If you are in junior high, we are adults here and expect to be treated as such.

dogfish
10-05-2010, 01:58 PM
Its simple. If the constant whining and bickering becomes completely boring, just do what I did and stop posting. I still read from time to time, but I've found better things to do with my time than listen to grown men cry. Sorry if that's baiting, but Im Polish and apparently have a reputation that precedes me
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

can't you find it in your heart to love us despite the cracks on phonse?

Tned
10-05-2010, 01:59 PM
can't you find it in your heart to love us despite the cracks on phonse?

He's not a Bronco anymore, take it to Other NFL teams.... ;)

ydave77
10-05-2010, 02:00 PM
Let me be clear, this has nothing to do with what the "moderators want", this is in reaction to months and months and months of voiced frustration from long time BF members about how so many threads spiral into two sides sniping at each other.

This message board has ALL it's rules and ALL it's decisions driven by member feedback. When we have that many members voicing concern and frustration about what they consider a problem, then as a community we need to talk about it and see if as a whole, the community thinks something has to be done to change the tone of posts.



Compared to the end of the Shanahan era and now, active members have dropped from a peak of about 500 to 375 or so. People that visit the site, but not login, have dropped as well, but not as much as the drop in people that login and post.

I believe, but have no way to quantify, that there are two factors for the drop. First, a lot of people have gotten frustrated with the losing (including the '08 collapse), but also some people don't like to risk getting slammed, so some that used to post now maybe lurk. Second, a lot of people that used to turn to forums for news and info, now use Twitter and other sources.

Personally, and I think most would agree, I don't think we have to be the biggest board on the Net, as long as we have enough activity that when we come on, there is enough active discussions going to to keep things interesting.

As long as the background stays blue, this will be my favorite broncos board.

Tned
10-05-2010, 02:03 PM
Even if I get frustrated with some posters, as long as the background stays blue, it will be my favorite broncos board.

Oh, you don't know how tempting it was for me to go quickly switch to a white background, or my April's fools background I created (can you say hideous).

Northman
10-05-2010, 02:06 PM
You can say "oh it's just a few people" who have left the group, but those few people matter.

Yes and no.

When speaking of guys like Coach and G-money i would agree. But both chose to leave on their own accord while many stayed behind to battle it out one way or the other. But there some others that i also liked that just never cleaned up their act and thus are no longer here. As frustrated as i may become over the crap that comes up on this board i still stay because to me its the best Bronco forum on the net and the good far outweighs the bad. But in the end you cant design or run a board for the select few who leave on their own accord or get banned for continuing to break the rules. Like i said, i love Coach and G-money's posts but if i had to be honest i havent really noticed them being gone because there are many other posters here who are also great posters in their own right. Those guys are missed but are not the be all end all to how this board moves forward. We ALL get sidetracked and become nasty at some point but its just a matter of working on making the board more tolerable and treating each with respect. I just continue to forge on and do my best to work on MY issues and let the chips fall where they may.

Northman
10-05-2010, 02:08 PM
Oh, you don't know how tempting it was for me to go quickly switch to a white background, or my April's fools background I created (can you say hideous).


Thats not funny. :tsk:

I hated that.

Ravage!!!
10-05-2010, 02:09 PM
I think we need to understand, that the busier the board gets, the more diversified the emotions. Not to mention, the more 'distant' some people will be from those that are close knit. This is a message board. A place that people from, not only the country, but the world come. Everyone is going to have their biases, and feel their point of view is insulted when a person SLAMS theirs. That could be slamming ex coaches, explayers, or current coaches and players.

What possible perspective should the Mods take? The one that supports their perspective? Banning, or warning, those that don't post positive things about the Broncos, the current staff, or the current players?

I don't know if making MORE rules is the answer. I think setting the tone, and continued "education" by example is the best method. Continue to ask posters to 'moderate' their own posts to temper down the insults while continuing with the same points of their posts. Doesn't have to be public comments, but asking "hey, could you make that same point without the direct finger pointing at one poster?" "would you mind editing your post to take out the 'quit hanging on Cutlers jock' sentence?"

I think this would go a much farther way, in the long run, than trying to make more rules. Its a place of opinions, but its a place that has a subject matter of passion.

dogfish
10-05-2010, 02:10 PM
i love Coach and G-money's posts but if i had to be honest i havent really noticed them being gone

man, i sure have. . .

Northman
10-05-2010, 02:14 PM
man, i sure have. . .


Meh, the board moves forward with or without them. I dont base my decisions on who is or isnt here anymore.

Lonestar
10-05-2010, 02:17 PM
Meh, the board moves forward with or without them. I dont base my decisions on who is or isnt here anymore.

Say you would not miss me :laugh::laugh:

Northman
10-05-2010, 02:20 PM
Say you would not miss me :laugh::laugh:


There might be that 10 minute lull but after that i would just create another mini-Jr to replace you. :D

Lonestar
10-05-2010, 02:23 PM
There might be that 10 minute lull but after that i would just create another mini-Jr to replace you. :D

When I was a mod there always seemed to be another yahoo pop up to take the place of the worst of the worst after they were banned.

The fact of life is there will always be someone that feels the need to step up and take the crown. Until they are banned and it starts over. Never ending cycle IMHO.

shank
10-05-2010, 03:38 PM
man, i sure have. . .

fighting the urge to quote this 3 times.

gnomeflinger
10-05-2010, 04:00 PM
Yes and no.

When speaking of guys like Coach and G-money i would agree. But both chose to leave on their own accord while many stayed behind to battle it out one way or the other. But there some others that i also liked that just never cleaned up their act and thus are no longer here. As frustrated as i may become over the crap that comes up on this board i still stay because to me its the best Bronco forum on the net and the good far outweighs the bad. But in the end you cant design or run a board for the select few who leave on their own accord or get banned for continuing to break the rules. Like i said, i love Coach and G-money's posts but if i had to be honest i havent really noticed them being gone because there are many other posters here who are also great posters in their own right. Those guys are missed but are not the be all end all to how this board moves forward. We ALL get sidetracked and become nasty at some point but its just a matter of working on making the board more tolerable and treating each with respect. I just continue to forge on and do my best to work on MY issues and let the chips fall where they may.

I wasn't thinking of the stupid heads who got themselves banned for breaking the CoC repeatedly. They proved themselves to be socially inept for this board and thus deserved what they got. I was thinking of those who did walk away because of them.

When the most of us do get bitchy, we are able to come to some sort of agreement, even if it's simply to agree to disagree. Those who don't, don't the door hit ya where the Good Lord split ya!

BroncoNut
10-05-2010, 04:01 PM
man, i sure have. . .

I thought Coach and G popped in now and again.

gnomeflinger
10-05-2010, 04:14 PM
I thought Coach and G popped in now and again.

The thing I remember is G working on his books, and between that and work, his time here on the boards is going to be very limited. I wonder if he got published yet?

BroncoNut
10-05-2010, 04:17 PM
The thing I remember is G working on his books, and between that and work, his time here on the boards is going to be very limited. I wonder if he got published yet?

yeah, i didn't get the impression either one was banned, just stopped posting because of other things.

spikerman
10-05-2010, 05:08 PM
I just got home from work and I haven't read through the entire thread, but I don't think anything needs to be changed. I log onto the forums and look at football overall as entertainment. Anybody (no matter how few) who reads my posts knows that I'm not a huge McDaniels supporter, but some of my favorite posts to read are from people who are. When there have been times that, in my opinion, the coach has really screwed something up I like to come on and read how people on the other side of the issue justify things. Just like, I believe people who think the opposite of me look to see if/how those of us not on the bandwagon will give credit to the coach for good things.

If somebody says something I don't like in a thread I'll respond to it - if I care enough about the topic; or if I'm just feeling rowdy. If not, who cares? We all have our opinions. The world, the Internet, and this forum would be a damn boring place if we all agreed about everything.

This board is supposed to be about fun. Nothing against anybody on here, but nobody on a message board can affect my day in the least just because they don't agree with me on a certain issue. If somebody insulting a person or disagreeing with a person most of us have never met or will never meet (pn excluded) causes somebody that much distress maybe they're taking the boards just a little too seriously. It's just football folks. I love it as much as the next person, but there are bigger issues to worry about.

Lonestar
10-05-2010, 05:08 PM
yeah, i didn't get the impression either one was banned, just stopped posting because of other things.

Neither were banned, they simply did not like the childish posting on the forum.

WARHORSE
10-05-2010, 05:10 PM
I appreciate the thread.

Ive come in here and flamed people with my opinion before and vice versa.

Sometimes you react before thinking. Not a recipe for good dialogue among fellow fans.


I think its a tough situation, but not one that cant be settled more.

Making a conscious effort to be civil in communicating our opinions is something that we can all do. We are afterall, adults arent we?

I understand, as well as most here, what youre talking about, and personally there are times when I choose not to come in here specifically for those reasons, and have done the same on other boards where the same thing is happening. I just get tired of the biting.

I believe this is about personal accountability.

I believe we know what is inflammatory and what is not.

Some of us have a different view of that, so it will never be simply wave free in here, but I believe if we all choose to make a personal decision to be more civil in our posting our opinions, and more accepting of those who post disagreeing opinions, then this can go a long way towards helping out.

If perhaps people can help mods by flagging negativity where we see it on the main board mostly, then the mods can help people tone it down through PMs, perhaps give a warning or what not, and if needed, at an excessive level, ban people for varying periods of time, perhaps not from the entire board itself, but perhaps from the main Broncos Talk page in some instances. Other times may require a ban from the entire site, let it be according to the mods, we have some intelligent mods in here.


As well, and stated beforehand, make an alternate 'Broncos Talk' page where you can say what you want, and people can threadrape if they choose. That way, people who value being uncensored more than being civil can go there and feel appreciated as well.


Just my thought.

And I think this is indeed something to nip before it gets any worse.

Personally speaking, I will stop coming if the dialogue stays the way it is.

But I want to be part of a solution, rather than just a name caller, or continuing to be part of the problem.

If this is a community of Broncos fans where this is valued, then I want to help.

And if its not, its all good. We all have our own decisions to make.

I appreciate asking for thoughts, and I appreciate everyone elses words as well.

Peace, and GO BRONCOS.

jhildebrand
10-05-2010, 06:03 PM
I just don't see how you do anything that doesn't invlolve heavy moderation. Then questions and perceptions of censorship and favoritism will prevail. That would only serve to strengthen the divide. Most of us found this place due to another's course of actions. I don't see how this wouldn't be following suit.

Also, some of this comes from newbies signing up. Most of whom learn before too long who is who and how to operate.

Finally, I am not sure how you try to please those who don't bother to be here on a daily basis and help out in the threads. Catering to the minority doesn't work! I have been in threads that get derailed and heated. Shoot, Silk and myself have had our rounds but things always work out. I would rather that than a heavily moderated board.

jhildebrand
10-05-2010, 06:04 PM
I guess another solution is an Orange Koolaid or Carnage (not for the faint of heart) forum all their own.

arapaho2
10-05-2010, 06:12 PM
i see nothing wrong with the way things are

i make mistakes and get warned, have my post edited or whatever...and as i know i was wrong or a bit overboard have no issue with it...life goes on

i just dont wanna see this place become another broncomania where the mods become Gods that are always right, cannot be questioned, and to expose a untruthful post by them is a prelude to bannishment, or challenge a mods football knowledge and your fragged to death...a place where you must follow the official forum and mods views or risk taking a vacation

this place is fine..people vent, people shout joyishly...it is what it is..a place where we can discuss our team...no family is pefect every family fights at times...but in the end we are all bronco fans

jhildebrand
10-05-2010, 06:14 PM
I think, and maybe I am wrong, part of the problem is this forum used to be relatively small and had infrequent posts. I remember when I first started posting here the threads and posts seemed to be more once a day and that was about it. It was also a place where most the posters were familiar with or knew one another. Now that feeling is probably gone and that is what some are missing.

atwater27
10-05-2010, 06:20 PM
We all know that there are a few folks that are just so out there with hate and discontent they are not worth reading.

.

http://themirrorlady.com/images/Chippendale-Mirror-5890.jpg

Nomad
10-05-2010, 06:31 PM
I didn't read the whole thread but I agree with arapaho's take!! Other than that I really don't know!

KCL
10-05-2010, 06:48 PM
i see nothing wrong with the way things are

i make mistakes and get warned, have my post edited or whatever...and as i know i was wrong or a bit overboard have no issue with it...life goes on

i just dont wanna see this place become another broncomania where the mods become Gods that are always right, cannot be questioned, and to expose a untruthful post by them is a prelude to bannishment, or challenge a mods football knowledge and your fragged to death...a place where you must follow the official forum and mods views or risk taking a vacation

this place is fine..people vent, people shout joyishly...it is what it is..a place where we can discuss our team...no family is pefect every family fights at times...but in the end we are all bronco fans
Like Nomad..I didn't read all the post in this thread.

I agree with this...not a Broncos fan but I have been posting with them for years including arapaho...Tned not everyone is going to be pleased all the time.

You can't please everyone..there are too many different opinions and personalities.

Tned
10-05-2010, 06:58 PM
Like Nomad..I didn't read all the post in this thread.

I agree with this...not a Broncos fan but I have been posting with them for years including arapaho...Tned not everyone is going to be pleased all the time.

You can't please everyone..there are too many different opinions and personalities.

I've always stated that we can't please everyone. However, our method of ruling here, unlikely most other message boards on the Net is not for me (admin) to dictate how things run, but to open up a community discussion when enough members have raised an issue.

I'm easy. I can flame with the best of them. I can post in a completely civil manner. I can live happily someplace between those extremes.

My only concern is making sure that we are now, and in the future, running BroncosForums the way the community at large wants it run.

Day1BroncoFan
10-05-2010, 07:02 PM
My only concern is making sure that we are now, and in the future, running BroncosForums the way the community at large wants it run.

So far, so good. ;)

The Glue Factory
10-05-2010, 07:05 PM
so far, so good. ;)

qft!

dogfish
10-05-2010, 07:36 PM
I thought Coach and G popped in now and again.

not nearly enough. . .

KCL
10-05-2010, 07:57 PM
I've always stated that we can't please everyone. However, our method of ruling here, unlikely most other message boards on the Net is not for me (admin) to dictate how things run, but to open up a community discussion when enough members have raised an issue.

I'm easy. I can flame with the best of them. I can post in a completely civil manner. I can live happily someplace between those extremes.

My only concern is making sure that we are now, and in the future, running BroncosForums the way the community at large wants it run.

You got the best of both worlds...tons of Bronco fans and me...A Chiefs fan...:elefant::beer::D:laugh::lol:;)

Dreadnought
10-05-2010, 08:39 PM
You got the best of both worlds...tons of Bronco fans and me...A Chiefs fan...:elefant::beer::D:laugh::lol:;)

IIR one Broncofan7 didn't approve of you being here, KCL. 'Course, he's gone now, and you ain't, so what does that tell ya?

gnomeflinger
10-05-2010, 08:47 PM
T, with all due respect, you need to relax. We are fine. You are fine. People who have left have been banned for being stupid heads. People who don't post anymore are probably too busy with their personal lives, and only have time to skim the headlines. There are the few who don't post because of the stupid heads who haven't done anything (yet) to merit banning. And then there are those who got annoyed by you or the moderators and though it happened eons ago, they don't post out of principle. That is a case of "it's them and not you." If the mods think they need to send out more "Concerning Your Posts," then do it. If you need more mods, then hire a couple more. I'm not saying that you shouldn't care about what happens here, because you should. We are glad that you do. But I don't think there isn't anything major that needs "fixing."

gnomeflinger
10-05-2010, 08:48 PM
IIR one Broncofan7 didn't approve of you being here, KCL. 'Course, he's gone now, and you ain't, so what does that tell ya?

That was an entertaining thread.

KCL
10-05-2010, 08:48 PM
IIR one Broncofan7 didn't approve of you being here, KCL. 'Course, he's gone now, and you ain't, so what does that tell ya?

that tells me that he left and I stayed....;)

DenBronx
10-05-2010, 08:56 PM
So why do you need to change anything

Here is some of what Tned posted in his original thread, and even some of the following pertains to active members on BF:

"With only a few exceptions, most people on here seem to agree that the snipping, sniping, baiting, bashing, flaming, fighting and such doesn't make this a very fun place to hang out. Neither wins nor losses seem to change the environment.

Lots of people have voiced frustration about the the state of things on BroncosForums. We have had a number of quality posters take temporary or permanent breaks from BF, because they just couldn't deal with the fighting that happens in nearly every thread."

As Tned stated - This problem is not ONLY affecting current members, except for a few, but also a number of quality posters who have either taken a temporary or permanent break from BF, because they just couldn't deal with the fighting that happens in nearly every thread.

With what Tned posted, there is a MAJOR problem.



Carol, I like you. You have been one of our best posters. You always bring the news first. We need more Carols.

But....do you really consider this to be a MAJOR problem?

I consider my house being caught on fire or getting in a car wreck a MAJOR problem. Just because group A. and group B. don't see eye to eye isn't a MAJOR problem. It's a correctable problem with people reporting, ignoring and Mods taking the proper action of suspending and banning. Anything thing that happens in an internet forums isn't a MAJOR problem. Really it's extremely petty.

Cugel said it best. Don't mistake someone saying player _____ is a bone for YOUR a bone head.

Jrwiz was also spot on when he said "people need to get thicker skin"

For the most part Tned I think the majority of everyone likes they way things are.

jhildebrand
10-05-2010, 09:06 PM
Let's put it to vote!

KCL
10-05-2010, 09:09 PM
Let's put it to vote!

What are the choices?

DenBronx
10-05-2010, 09:09 PM
Since there is "alot of unhappy campers" then why don't they identify themselves? By definition of "alot" are we talking 2 or 3? 5-10? 50? 100? I mean how severe is this?

It seems like there nowhere to be found in this thread.


Don't go complaining and then not chime in on the discussion. Either come in and say what was said to make you feel personally attacked or baited or harrassed or maybe take a trip down the yellow brick road.


Why is it so hard for some to just use the ignore button? You never have to see the person that attacked you again. Then just keep ignoring and ignoring until your down to the 15 favorite people that always agree with you on everything.

Denver Native (Carol)
10-05-2010, 09:11 PM
Carol, I like you. You have been one of our best posters. You always bring the news first. We need more Carols.

But....do you really consider this to be a MAJOR problem?

I consider my house being caught on fire or getting in a car wreck a MAJOR problem. Just because group A. and group B. don't see eye to eye isn't a MAJOR problem. It's a correctable problem with people reporting, ignoring and Mods taking the proper action of suspending and banning. Anything thing that happens in an internet forums isn't a MAJOR problem. Really it's extremely petty.

Cugel said it best. Don't mistake someone saying player _____ is a bone for YOUR a bone head.

Jrwiz was also spot on when he said "people need to get thicker skin"

For the most part Tned I think the majority of everyone likes they way things are.

Let me clarify what I meant - major problem on BF. I would assume there were many reasons behind why this thread was started by Tned. One of the things Tned posted in his initial post, which really concerns me is:

Lots of people have voiced frustration about the the state of things on BroncosForums. We have had a number of quality posters take temporary or permanent breaks from BF, because they just couldn't deal with the fighting that happens in nearly every thread.

Possibly the problems Tned listed in his initial post bothers me more than others, as I was one of the people who initially helped BF get started, and I know we have lost a number of quality posters.

DenBronx
10-05-2010, 09:12 PM
Let's put it to vote!

I agree. Put up a vote Tned. It doesn't have to be public so people don't feel discouraged. But put up a vote to see where the majority on this really is!


A. Powderpuff gang
B. Blood suckers
C. Negitive Sallys
D. Slackers


Something like that.

gnomeflinger
10-05-2010, 09:14 PM
I agree. Put up a vote Tned. It doesn't have to be public so people don't feel discouraged. But put up a vote to see where the majority on this really is!


A. Powderpuff gang
B. Blood suckers
C. Negitive Sallys
D. Slackers


Something like that.

E. Jagsbch

Tned
10-05-2010, 09:16 PM
T, with all due respect, you need to relax. We are fine. You are fine. People who have left have been banned for being stupid heads. People who don't post anymore are probably too busy with their personal lives, and only have time to skim the headlines. There are the few who don't post because of the stupid heads who haven't done anything (yet) to merit banning. And then there are those who got annoyed by you or the moderators and though it happened eons ago, they don't post out of principle. That is a case of "it's them and not you." If the mods think they need to send out more "Concerning Your Posts," then do it. If you need more mods, then hire a couple more. I'm not saying that you shouldn't care about what happens here, because you should. We are glad that you do. But I don't think there isn't anything major that needs "fixing."

I appreciate the sentiment, but just to reiterate what I've posted in here. It isn't about what I want or what I'm concerned about. We have had quite a few people publicly and privately raise concerns about the sniping, baiting, etc. that goes on. Since our one and only goal is to run a community based on what the members of the community want, we open up discussions like that to take the "pulse" of the community and see if changes are needed.

It truly isn't about what the mods thing needs to be done, or what I think needs to be done, it's about what YOU think needs to be done, and what every other member of this community things. That's why the feedback that you and others have posted in this thread is so invaluable. We need to know if we are walking that thin line about right, or if we need to adjust a bit.

As to relaxing, I would be more relaxed if my wife had let me have more than a sip of the 20 year old Frech Vouvray Moelleux that she opened. :sad:

KCL
10-05-2010, 09:22 PM
I got a PM from someone last Sunday after the win that told me they were leaving for awhile because there were getting tired of the drama here.Asked me to keep in touch with them.Some others may have gotten the same PM.

Maybe it's a good thing for people to take a break every now and then.

DenBronx
10-05-2010, 09:24 PM
Let me clarify what I meant - major problem on BF. I would assume there were many reasons behind why this thread was started by Tned. One of the things Tned posted in his initial post, which really concerns me is:

Lots of people have voiced frustration about the the state of things on BroncosForums. We have had a number of quality posters take temporary or permanent breaks from BF, because they just couldn't deal with the fighting that happens in nearly every thread.

Possibly the problems Tned listed in his initial post bothers me more than others, as I was one of the people who initially helped BF get started, and I know we have lost a number of quality posters.



We seem to be gaining more quality posters now more than ever!

I really hadn't noticed a drop off in these mysterious quality posters.


To leave or "take a permanent break" from an interent forum because you can't deal with heated discussions is a free choice to anyone. The reason I choose to post here compared to other Bronco forums is because the quality of posters here are a little more edgy, much more knowledgeable about FOOTBALL and not affraid to tell exactlly how they feel or think on any given subject. I have been posting with many here since the early 2000's from other forums. I know alot of posters from way back and now alot of new ones. These "problems" Carol, is nothing new.

spikerman
10-05-2010, 09:25 PM
I guess I just don't get it. Why would anyone get so upset about anything said on a MB? Who cares? Again, most of the insults are about people that most of us do not or will not ever know. Even if someone insults me personally (I know, hard to believe that not everyone loves me) why would that have even the smallest effect on me? I like me. I'm a very cool guy. Just ask my mom.

Fire away with an opinion that's different than mine. It's no problem - in fact it's fun. It probably won't be the last time you are wrong. :D

Tned
10-05-2010, 09:27 PM
Since there is "alot of unhappy campers" then why don't they identify themselves? By definition of "alot" are we talking 2 or 3? 5-10? 50? 100? I mean how severe is this?

It seems like there nowhere to be found in this thread.


Don't go complaining and then not chime in on the discussion. Either come in and say what was said to make you feel personally attacked or baited or harrassed or maybe take a trip down the yellow brick road.


Why is it so hard for some to just use the ignore button? You never have to see the person that attacked you again. Then just keep ignoring and ignoring until your down to the 15 favorite people that always agree with you on everything.

I don't have a definitive list, but if you look at the other Town Hall threads, such as the one about a positive only forum, there were plenty of people that said that while they didn't agree with creating a positive only forum, they did think the main forum needed to be cleaned up (paraphrasing many posts into one). In addition, we have gotten feedback via PMs about how so many threads devolve into a McDaniels sucks/McDaniels is great, or Shanahan sucks or Shanahan sucks, or Cutler is great or Cutler sucks, etc. thread.

Quite a few of them have posted in this thread.

spikerman
10-05-2010, 09:31 PM
In addition, we have gotten feedback via PMs about how so many threads devolve into a McDaniels sucks/McDaniels is great, or Shanahan sucks or Shanahan sucks, or Cutler is great or Cutler sucks, etc. thread.

Quite a few of them have posted in this thread.

For the record, McDaniels sucks, Shanahan is great, Cutler is meh. I kid, I kid.

DenBronx
10-05-2010, 09:31 PM
I don't have a definitive list, but if you look at the other Town Hall threads, such as the one about a positive only forum, there were plenty of people that said that while they didn't agree with creating a positive only forum, they did think the main forum needed to be cleaned up (paraphrasing many posts into one). In addition, we have gotten feedback via PMs about how so many threads devolve into a McDaniels sucks/McDaniels is great, or Shanahan sucks or Shanahan sucks, or Cutler is great or Cutler sucks, etc. thread.

Quite a few of them have posted in this thread.


Wow...If this is their complaint then they really need to visit an Eagles or Raiders forum sometime. It will make them be thankfull to be Bronco fans.

This is the effing NFL....and s*** happens. Now lets all go back to talking about it.

KCL
10-05-2010, 09:31 PM
Some of the post about Cutler are ridiculous..no harm in discussing him like we do other players on other teams but some people get carried away...so he left the Broncos...it's a business...move on.

I think that gets people going back and forth and repeating the same old crap...JMO.

DenBronx
10-05-2010, 09:35 PM
Some of the post about Cutler are ridiculous..no harm in discussing him like we do other players on other teams but some people get carried away...so he left the Broncos...it's a business...move on.

I think that gets people going back and forth and repeating the same old crap...JMO.

Mods just need to merge every single Cutler thread. Puts it all to rest. You want to talk Cutler...go to the Cutler thread.


Seems like most people around here don't remember the good old Brian Griese or Jake Plummer days. Same s*** but just a new day of walking in it.

Tned
10-05-2010, 09:36 PM
I guess I just don't get it. Why would anyone get so upset about anything said on a MB? Who cares? Again, most of the insults are about people that most of us do not or will not ever know. Even if someone insults me personally (I know, hard to believe that not everyone loves me) why would that have even the smallest effect on me? I like me. I'm a very cool guy. Just ask my mom.

Fire away with an opinion that's different than mine. It's no problem - in fact it's fun. It probably won't be the last time you are wrong. :D

I agree with your sentiment about differing opinions and have constantly reminded people how boring this place would be if everyone had the exact same opinion and just hi-fived each other and replied with "great post" and such.

At work I have been called the ultimate Devil's Advocate, because I often take the "other side" to evaluate holes in strategy, and such -- looking for the possible minefields. Discussing and debating opposing opinions is something I find fun and challenging.

However, as to your question of "Why would anyone get so upset about anything said on a MB?", I will answer it like this.

Most people posting on message boards tend to follow into one of two categories:


It's the internet, I will probably never meet anyone who posts on the message board in person, I don't have to treat them the way I would face to face.

Whether I am speaking to someone in person or posting on a message board, I try and treat people with respect and civility.


Personally, I try and treat everyone with respect, with the exception that I have always (long before BF) had no tolerance for dickwads, whether on forums or in person, and have a hard time not ripping to shreds people that treat others with disrespect and incivility.

DenBronx
10-05-2010, 09:38 PM
E. Jagsbch

F. JakeGirl

Tned
10-05-2010, 09:38 PM
Mods just need to merge every single Cutler thread. Puts it all to rest. You want to talk Cutler...go to the Cutler thread.


Seems like most people around here don't remember the good old Brian Griese or Jake Plummer days. Same s*** but just a new day of walking in it.

The problem is that if we merged every thread that turned into a Cutler, Shanahan, Marshall, scheffler or Hillis thread, we would have about five threads in Broncos Talk.

Both sides of the great 'ole McDaniels divide routinely throws those guys into the discussion for various reasons.

KCL
10-05-2010, 09:40 PM
Mods just need to merge every single Cutler thread. Puts it all to rest. You want to talk Cutler...go to the Cutler thread.


Seems like most people around here don't remember the good old Brian Griese or Jake Plummer days. Same s*** but just a new day of walking in it.

I'm not talking about threads..I'm talking about post that are in threads that are started about something else Broncos related and someone starts posting about him and it escalates to BS.

spikerman
10-05-2010, 09:41 PM
The problem is that if we merged every thread that turned into a Cutler, Shanahan, Marshall, scheffler or Hillis thread, we would have about five threads in Broncos Talk.

Both sides of the great 'ole McDaniels divide routinely throws those guys into the discussion for various reasons.

I actually think there would only be one thread because they all tend to come up at some point or another within every thread. lol

You should have a contest to see who can go the longest without mentioning ANY of those guys. I don't know what the award would be, but my guess is you'd have a lot of people "losing" pretty quickly.

DenBronx
10-05-2010, 09:44 PM
The problem is that if we merged every thread that turned into a Cutler, Shanahan, Marshall, scheffler or Hillis thread, we would have about five threads in Broncos Talk.

Both sides of the great 'ole McDaniels divide routinely throws those guys into the discussion for various reasons.


Sorry just going to the extreme on the merge thing. But if there are so many new threads then fans must want to talk about it.

It's either that or 2.25 YPC threads right now. :elefant:

spikerman
10-05-2010, 09:46 PM
Sorry just going to the extreme on the merge thing. But if there are so many new threads then fans must want to talk about it.

It's either that or 2.25 YPC threads right now. :elefant:

Around these parts we refer to 2.25 YPC as "the good ol' days."

DenBronx
10-05-2010, 09:47 PM
I'm not talking about threads..I'm talking about post that are in threads that are started about something else Broncos related and someone starts posting about him and it escalates to BS.


You're a Chefs fan and don't get the right to be in the middle of a Bronco fan vs Bronco fan rivalry.

Now, if we have more Cassel could have been a Bronco threads then we will let your opinion matter. :D

KCL
10-05-2010, 09:50 PM
You're a Chefs fan and don't get the right to be in the middle of a Bronco fan vs Bronco fan rivalry.

Now, if we have more Cassel could have been a Bronco threads then we will let your opinion matter. :D

Yes I do have the right..Cutler isn't a Bronco so I can post about him...don't bring Cassel into it..now if you wanna talk Charles...we can discuss..:D

DenBronx
10-05-2010, 09:54 PM
Yes I do have the right..Cutler isn't a Bronco so I can post about him...don't bring Cassel into it..now if you wanna talk Charles...we can discuss..:D



Stop sending me harrassing pm's KCL....please take your thoughts about Cassel being wrapped in Christmas lights to the lounge.

spikerman
10-05-2010, 09:55 PM
now if you wanna talk Charles...we can discuss..:D

We don't. It's too depressing. :tsk:

KCL
10-05-2010, 09:57 PM
Stop sending me harrassing pm's KCL....please take your thoughts about Cassel being wrapped in Christmas lights to the lounge.

You're dreaming....I only send PMs to people I like.

DenBronx
10-05-2010, 10:01 PM
Does anyone know if I can report a sexual harrassment case that's about 2 years old?

gnomeflinger
10-05-2010, 10:08 PM
Does anyone know if I can report a sexual harrassment case that's about 2 years old?

I think the statute of limitations is 3 years, but it might vary from state to state.

DenBronx
10-05-2010, 10:14 PM
I think the statute of limitations is 3 years, but it might vary from state to state.

Stop baiting me in the thread about baiting.


I know my rights and my limitations!!!

KCL
10-05-2010, 10:24 PM
Does anyone know if I can report a sexual harrassment case that's about 2 years old?

I would go talk to an attorney and see what your chances are that you
are acquitted.2 years seems like a long time to wait but maybe your victim has put it behind him.

DenBronx
10-05-2010, 10:29 PM
I would go talk to an attorney and see what your chances are that you
are acquitted.2 years seems like a long time to wait but maybe your victim has put it behind him.


Who said it was a him? Are you aware of this case?


Yeah...I kinda waited too late. I don't remember much about it now.


So....I'll trade you a Jabbar Gaffney and a Maroney for a Jamal Charles straight up.

Lonestar
10-05-2010, 10:31 PM
The problem is that if we merged every thread that turned into a Cutler, Shanahan, Marshall, scheffler or Hillis thread, we would have about five threads in Broncos Talk.

Both sides of the great 'ole McDaniels divide routinely throws those guys into the discussion for various reasons.

Seems pretty simple to me delete the posts and IP them if they continue to go off topic.

I mean anyone and everyone that even makes a subtle hints about the good old days UNLESS it is in a cutler, mike, TS, BM thread.

Same applies to if they comment about MCD being a dickwad in a non MCD thread. Or Orton, Maroney, Moreno etc.

If folks do not like what is being posted report it. that is the only way to get it under control. I'm not opposed to reporting posts when I see something off topic. Not sure that they get acted on or if they came to the same conclusion I did but I've done it and will continue to do so.

As I said in an earlier post I have been working hard to not cause issues over the past couple of weeks after talking with Northman. With whom I rarely agree with Broncos wise.

Hell if we can do it anyone can.

Tned
10-05-2010, 10:48 PM
Seems pretty simple to me delete the posts and IP them if they continue to go off topic.

I mean anyone and everyone that even makes a subtle hints about the good old days UNLESS it is in a cutler, mike, TS, BM thread.

Same applies to if they comment about MCD being a dickwad in a non MCD thread. Or Orton, Maroney, Moreno etc.

If folks do not like what is being posted report it. that is the only way to get it under control. I'm not opposed to reporting posts when I see something off topic. Not sure that they get acted on or if they came to the same conclusion I did but I've done it and will continue to do so.

As I said in an earlier post I have been working hard to not cause issues over the past couple of weeks after talking with Northman. With whom I rarely agree with Broncos wise.

Hell if we can do it anyone can.

You do realize that in your posts on this subject you only cover half of the problem, right?

Half the time, give or take, or more, when Cutler, Shanahan, etc. are brought up it isn't someone talking about the good ole days.

Instead, someone mentions RZ problems, and a McDaniels defender will talk about how much Cutler sucked in the RZ. Someone will comment on the Alphonso Smith pick, and a McDaniels supporter will post all of Shanahan's draft picks that didn't work out. Someone comments on an Orton interception, and an Orton defender talks about how crappy Cutler is playing in Chicago. Etc., etc., etc.

If any action is going to be taken, the mod team is certainly not going to look at only half of the problem that you highlight, and give free reign to those posters that bring up Shanahan, Cutler, Marshall, etc. for one of two reasons: as a deflection of any criticism of McDaniels, the O-line, RBs, Orton, etc. OR simply to bait and irritate posters critical of McDaniels moves.

Unless there is a massive ground swell to do so, I don't see any situations on THIS forum, where the mod team is going to censor out one viewpoint, while letting another run roughshod over roughly half of the forum members.

GEM
10-05-2010, 10:59 PM
Does anyone know if I can report a sexual harrassment case that's about 2 years old?

Dammit Den....I freaking told you to shut your freaking mouth about that shit!!

gnomeflinger
10-05-2010, 10:59 PM
Who said it was a him? Are you aware of this case?


Yeah...I kinda waited too late. I don't remember much about it now.





You will in therapy.

Lonestar
10-05-2010, 11:10 PM
You do realize that in your posts on this subject you only cover half of the problem, right?

Half the time, give or take, or more, when Cutler, Shanahan, etc. are brought up it isn't someone talking about the good ole days.

Instead, someone mentions RZ problems, and a McDaniels defender will talk about how much Cutler sucked in the RZ. Someone will comment on the Alphonso Smith pick, and a McDaniels supporter will post all of Shanahan's draft picks that didn't work out. Someone comments on an Orton interception, and an Orton defender talks about how crappy Cutler is playing in Chicago. Etc., etc., etc.

If any action is going to be taken, the mod team is certainly not going to look at only half of the problem that you highlight, and give free reign to those posters that bring up Shanahan, Cutler, Marshall, etc. for one of two reasons: as a deflection of any criticism of McDaniels, the O-line, RBs, Orton, etc. OR simply to bait and irritate posters critical of McDaniels moves.

Unless there is a massive ground swell to do so, I don't see any situations on THIS forum, where the mod team is going to censor out one viewpoint, while letting another run roughshod over roughly half of the forum members.

maybe you only read the parts of my comment that suited your post here let me re-post part of it.


I mean anyone and everyone that even makes a subtle hints about the good old days UNLESS it is in a cutler, mike, TS, BM thread.

Same applies to if they comment about MCD being a dickwad in a non MCD thread. Or Orton, Maroney, Moreno etc.

Not sure how you can read anything but equal for one and all out of that.

I do not see how you can come out of that post with I want one side but not the other dinged.

Maybe your to close to the forest to see the trees.

shank
10-06-2010, 12:18 AM
ok, i'm on board.


start by banning everyone but the mods and me. then re-introduce users one at a time, and if i get along with them, they're cool to stay.

dogfish
10-06-2010, 12:30 AM
ok, i'm on board.


start by banning everyone but the mods and me. then re-introduce users one at a time, and if i get along with them, they're cool to stay.

**** that, i will not be banned!!


and T likes me better than you, so abandon this reckless agenda now. . .

shank
10-06-2010, 12:32 AM
**** that, i will not be banned!!


and T likes me better than you, so abandon this reckless agenda now. . .

bump dogfish's audition down 20 spots for this insubordination.

DenBronx
10-06-2010, 12:50 AM
Dammit Den....I freaking told you to shut your freaking mouth about that shit!!


You will in therapy.



It's all just a blur at the moment ..


I'm now affraid of rabbits...I freak out when I see them. Was there a rabbit involved???

Or was everyone dressed in rabbit suits?

Someone sent me a PM with no name that said "What's up doc?"


Dammit! I can only take so much....I just want to go somehwere and breast feed right now!!!!!

gnomeflinger
10-06-2010, 12:53 AM
It's all just a blur at the moment ..


I'm now affraid of rabbits...I freak out when I see them. Was there a rabbit involved???

Or was everyone dressed in rabbit suits?

Someone sent me a PM with no name that said "What's up doc?"


Dammit! I can only take so much....I just want to go somehwere and breast feed right now!!!!!

You drink too much. :cheers:

Nomad
10-06-2010, 06:06 AM
ok, i'm on board.


start by banning everyone but the mods and me. then re-introduce users one at a time, and if i get along with them, they're cool to stay.

Get to work!!:D We're buddies right!:) (put a good word in for me;))

Tned
10-06-2010, 07:20 AM
maybe you only read the parts of my comment that suited your post here let me re-post part of it.


Not sure how you can read anything but equal for one and all out of that.

I do not see how you can come out of that post with I want one side but not the other dinged.

Maybe your to close to the forest to see the trees.

Equal for one and all? :confused:



I mean anyone and everyone that even makes a subtle hints about the good old days UNLESS it is in a cutler, mike, TS, BM thread.

Same applies to if they comment about MCD being a dickwad in a non MCD thread. Or Orton, Maroney, Moreno etc.


Makes a subtle hint about the good old days --- that clearly indicates positive posts about the past (Cutler, Shanahan, Marshall, etc.).

Comments about MCD being a dickwad. Or Orton, Maroney... --- that clearly indicates negative posts about McDaniels and current players.

So, you have said anyone that slams the current coach and players should have their posts deleted and anyone that posts positive things about the past should have their posts deleted (unless they are in dedicated threads for that purpose).

That is not "equal for one and all". It is possible you mistyped it and then got confused re-reading it (based on this post), but saying ONE group with ONE set of opinions can neither post about how they thought the past was better NOR criticize the current coach and players is not equal for all.

For it to be equal to all, you would have needed to add the other half of the problem and added:

Delete any posts where someone posts anything critical of Shanahan, Cutler, Marshall, etc. in a thread unless it is a thread dedicated to that player/coach.

Delete any posts that talk about how the good ole days weren't as good as some thought.

Something like that.

Tned
10-06-2010, 08:57 AM
Just some other thoughts I would like to throw out there:

Far too many people consider forum discussions a zero sum game or maybe an all or nothing proposition.

Meaning, if poster A is upset that Cutler was traded than there is no way he could be considered anything but a McDaniels hater, because he has criticized one aspect of McDaniels tenure, therefore he must be a hater.

Conversely, if someone defends the trade of Cutler or calls Cutler a whiny bitch, then that person is a McDaniels apologist, even if they have been critical of him in other areas.

All or nothing. No room for compromise or accepting that some praise or criticism can be made without it being tied to past events.

Take myself, I have been critical of McDaniels for the handling of Cutler and Marshall, more so than the act of getting rid of it. I have stated, as the head coach he has every right, and should have the power, to get rid of players he doesn't believe fits his team. However, I take issue with "how" he went about both of those and in discussions about such, have voiced that opinion.

At the same time, I RAVED about how he ran training camp last year. RAVED about his enthusiasm on the sideline. Talked about how I loved that nothing is left to chance, that he thinks through everything -- has a plan for everything. Made the team more fundamentally sound -- better tackling, etc. The list of praise for McDaniels is long and encompasses well over a year of posts....

But, I'm a McDaniels hater, because I have voiced criticism about how he handled certain things.

:confused:

I just don't see how that math adds up.

My point is not to get into a discussion of those things, or whether or not I'm a hater, but to say that I think we focus WAY too much on pigeon holing or labeling people -- drawing a line in the sand and saying they MUST be a McDaniels hater or McDaniels supporter. Saying that if they are a McDaniels supporter, they MUST hate the ex-Broncos players/coaches, and conversely, if they don't rant about how evil the ex-Broncos are, then they MUST be considered a McDaniels hater.

I don't know about where you guys live, but in my world, life simply isn't that black and white. As an example, there are many TV shows that I love, EXCEPT for the fact that they tend interject "conservative bashing" into their storylines quite frequently. I don't say, "I will never watch that show again", but instead take the good with the bad.
Ok, not the best example, but hopefully you get the point.

If you try and live life as if everything is black and white, then you are going to be disappointed, angry or whatever a great deal of the time, because most things in life are in those shades of grey.

Yes, we have a few zealots on both sides of the argument that either hate McDaniels to such an extent that even if he won the SB next year they probably wouldn't come around, and we have some that hate the ex-Broncos and Shanahan so much, that just about anything short of death wouldn't be enough to erase the hate, but the facts is we really don't have many of those zealots.

Instead, we have a lot of people that are passionate about the Broncos. Have strong opinions, and are EMOTIONALLY tied to those opinions and get upset and angry when people feel differently. As a result, they feel that in order to 'prove' their opinion is correct, they must destroy the other person's opinion.

Honestly, do we really need to try and destroy the other person's opinion, or attempt to belittle/discredit those with alternate views, in order to be more secure in our own? I don't think it should be necessary.

You know the old saying, "opinions are like mouths, everyone has one" (I cleaned it up)? There is no reason that it has to be zero sum. That if I hold opinion X, then I must destroy your opinion Y, because they can't both survive.

I think McDaniels has done some great things in Denver, and could be a coach winning lots of game in Denver for a long time, BUT I also think he has made rookie mistakes along the way. Those do not have to be mutually exclusive.

I can love my wife, but still hate some of the things she does -- just like I drive her bat-shit crazy with things I do.

Life is not a zero sum game. Everything doesn't have to fall into black and white, love/hate boxes.

If everyone could simply take a step back, RESPECT other poster's opinions, even if they are different than our own, and not ASSUME you know the motives or ulterior motives behind the opinion of posters that disagree with you, then all posters, all opinions, should be able to live together in harmony.

NOTE: I just hopped off a conference call and only popped in for a moment, and now have to run to work, so I don't have time to proof this, so sorry if there are even more Tned-typos than normal.

Denver Native (Carol)
10-06-2010, 10:00 AM
Tned - from your last post:

"Instead, we have a lot of people that are passionate about the Broncos. Have strong opinions, and are EMOTIONALLY tied to those opinions and get upset and angry when people feel differently. As a result, they feel that in order to 'prove' their opinion is correct, they must destroy the other person's opinion.

Honestly, do we really need to try and destroy the other person's opinion, or attempt to belittle/discredit those with alternate views, in order to be more secure in our own? I don't think it should be necessary."

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion - the problem is, how they express that opinion - i.e. - many times, personal attacks against someone who does not share their same opinion. Anyone should be able to disagree - everyone should be able to make their point, debate, without making it personal.

BroncoNut
10-06-2010, 11:07 AM
yeah, when you get emotionally invested, you're going to pop off now and again. there seems to be a lot of baiting that goes on. when that happens, or when you see someone getting overly jacked up about an issue, i think sometimes it's best to just turn and walk away.

The Glue Factory
10-06-2010, 11:51 AM
Just some other thoughts I would like to throw out there:

Far too many people consider forum discussions a zero sum game or maybe an all or nothing proposition.

Meaning, if poster A is upset that Cutler was traded than there is no way he could be considered anything but a McDaniels hater, because he has criticized one aspect of McDaniels tenure, therefore he must be a hater.

Conversely, if someone defends the trade of Cutler or calls Cutler a whiny bitch, then that person is a McDaniels apologist, even if they have been critical of him in other areas.

All or nothing. No room for compromise or accepting that some praise or criticism can be made without it being tied to past events.

Take myself, I have been critical of McDaniels for the handling of Cutler and Marshall, more so than the act of getting rid of it. I have stated, as the head coach he has every right, and should have the power, to get rid of players he doesn't believe fits his team. However, I take issue with "how" he went about both of those and in discussions about such, have voiced that opinion.

At the same time, I RAVED about how he ran training camp last year. RAVED about his enthusiasm on the sideline. Talked about how I loved that nothing is left to chance, that he thinks through everything -- has a plan for everything. Made the team more fundamentally sound -- better tackling, etc. The list of praise for McDaniels is long and encompasses well over a year of posts....

But, I'm a McDaniels hater, because I have voiced criticism about how he handled certain things.

:confused:

I just don't see how that math adds up.



Consider that nature of the forums. I'm sure not everyone is going to read every post by all the other members. That is necessarily going to leave gaps in understanding someone's position. It's not like we're all standing around the water cooler jawing about the game. I might post one positive comment in one thread and a slew of negatives in another and someone will come away thinking I'm a hater. Or they don't read the thread my slew of negativity is in and think I'm an apologist. Neither position is accurate but that's the perception.

In the end it behooves everyone to deal with what is said in the thread, make reference to any history and grow a thicker skin (i.e. don't take offense to someone elses disagreement with your opinion.) If things start going bad we need to police ourselves by reporting abusive posts to the mods, taking arguments to PMs and growing a thicker skin (i.e. ignore personal attacks.)

BroncoWave
10-06-2010, 07:56 PM
I can think of about 2 posters (one from each side of the debates) who if they went away right now about 90% of the problems here would be solved. I won't name names but I'm sure many know who I'm referring to.

TXBRONC
10-06-2010, 08:17 PM
I can think of about 2 posters (one from each side of the debates) who if they went away right now about 90% of the problems here would be solved. I won't name names but I'm sure many know who I'm referring to.

Well I'm not going away BTB. :tsk:

jhildebrand
10-06-2010, 08:28 PM
Well I'm not going away BTB. :tsk:

Neither am I :lol:

Northman
10-06-2010, 08:29 PM
I would leave but i need this job.

jhildebrand
10-06-2010, 08:35 PM
I would leave but i need this job.

I'm here secretly auditioning to be a mod :jaw:

TXBRONC
10-06-2010, 08:37 PM
I'm here secretly auditioning to be a mod :jaw:

Do the words hell and freeze over meaning anything to you? :lol:

KCL
10-06-2010, 08:39 PM
I would leave but i need this job.

No more modding for you.

I'm here secretly auditioning to be a mod :jaw:
Yes I approve you to be a mod.

Northman
10-06-2010, 08:40 PM
No more modding for you.

.

Oh come on. I was awesome you know it.

jhildebrand
10-06-2010, 08:43 PM
Do the words hell and freeze over meaning anything to you? :lol:


No more modding for you.

Yes I approve you to be a mod.

I think 99.9999999999999% probably agree with TX. Although, I have to say it is pretty cold here right now :D

Jim Carrey in Dumb and Dumber comes to mind: So you're telling me there's a chance :lol:

Jagsbch
10-06-2010, 09:14 PM
So its not just me, it's you too?

One thing I have learned in all my years in this league Of MB's is that click factor kills MB's.

You have to feel like we feel, think like we think, and if your not in our clic prepared to be attacked because you will be isolated by red flag comments designed to promote an attack by other posters.

Individuality is not a welcome trait, it is usually either conform to the sheepish takes the clic moves to the beat too or be prepared to be rediculed for dancing to the the beat of another drummer.

:elefant: Key to a happy forum is to focus the angst we all bring to the board to the subjects and not to eachother.:elefant:


The Apostle Paul said it best...
But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.

Allowing swords to be swung at members who do not share the same dance steps as the clic, rather than takes, is counter productive to any forums ultimate objective, not to mention when only the clic is left your left to devour eachother, and where is the diversity then left to spice things up when every one is just being politically correct? :tsk:

:elefant:What is the ultimate objective? :elefant:

Its for each individual member of the forum to attempt reflecting the light of their take on the mirror of other members mind to see whether or not the take is polished enough to stick and reflect back in acceptance or be chopped to pieces with the light saber 'An Elegant Weapon, For a More Civilised Age.' (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccHPypSFzBE) Then enlightenment resulting from such practices can change the world, as the doors of perception are opened to reveal other doors just waiting to be opened...

We need to stop closing doors on individuals and focus on the takes, while shutting down the takes that lack credence, while leaving the doors open on the ones that do, our souls are at stake here, lets stop attacking eachother and get to the issues, that is the only way we will ever get out of here alive. Kill the takes that need killing, and do it with a civilized passion...

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BroncoWave
10-06-2010, 09:30 PM
Well I'm not going away BTB. :tsk:


Neither am I :lol:


I would leave but i need this job.

:lol: Don't worry it's not any of you guys. Yall are some of the better posters on here!

dogfish
10-18-2010, 12:49 PM
okay, bumping this thread because i've got some input. . .


i was reading through the thread about scheffler getting an extension, and these were two of the first posts. . .



Who cares he got to go home and is not a bronco anymore.


The boner some of you people have for former Broncos is starting to get out of hand.

IMO, both of those posters should be banned for blatant trolling, because that's all that is-- plain and simple. . . ****. . . perfect example of someone just looking for an argument-- no attempt to contribute anything of value to the discussion, just going out of their way to piss on a harmless thread. . . i mean, it's one thing to post a sarcastic response to some of the idiot threads that get posted here in BT (specifically on game day), but it's something else to seek out an inoffensive news piece in the other teams section to troll it. . .

want to make this a more pleasant place? THAT'S the type of bullshit that needs to get cleaned up. . .

KCL
10-18-2010, 01:25 PM
I saw that also dog and IIRC someone posted that the thread was made to only bait...I think that was the thread.

I know the thread starter mentioned that the thread was started in the other NFL teams forum.

Yep those types of post are not needed...it wasn't in the smack forums so there's no need to post like that...JMO.

NightTrainLayne
10-18-2010, 01:28 PM
okay, bumping this thread because i've got some input. . .


i was reading through the thread about scheffler getting an extension, and these were two of the first posts. . .






IMO, both of those posters should be banned for blatant trolling, because that's all that is-- plain and simple. . . ****. . . perfect example of someone just looking for an argument-- no attempt to contribute anything of value to the discussion, just going out of their way to piss on a harmless thread. . . i mean, it's one thing to post a sarcastic response to some of the idiot threads that get posted here in BT (specifically on game day), but it's something else to seek out an inoffensive news piece in the other teams section to troll it. . .

want to make this a more pleasant place? THAT'S the type of bullshit that needs to get cleaned up. . .

I usually try to stay out of Town Hall threads due to my position at a Moderator, which adds more authority to my posts than what they should have, but I have to answer this post.

Please take my 2 cents as only that of a poster. Forget for a minute that I'm a Moderator (i.e. this opinion is probably not shared by the rest of the moderator staff and/or Admin).

I agree with your post first of all. This is exactly the type of stuff that leads to arguments and causes hard feelings between folks who should otherwise all be "on the same team".

However, I have to point out the very first line of the original post to start the thread:


It looks like the Lions didn't get the memo about Scheffler not being a team player.

A couple of thoughts.

1. Some have argued that Scheff wasn't a "team player", but I don't think the Broncos organization has ever made an official statement to that effect.

2. That line is just begging for someone who does believe that Scheff wasn't a team player and/or that the Broncos made a good decision in letting him go to take over the thread and make that the topic of discussion.

Would the same comments have been made if the original post hadn't set the "team player" bait out there? Maybe.. . sadly probably they would have, but how can a moderating staff that tries it's darndest to call the shots in a fair manner call out the responses while ignoring the original post?

There are three possible outcomes.

1. Delete the original comment and the responses you pointed out.

2. Delete just the responses you pointed out.

3. Let the whole thing stand.

Option 3 is what's happened so far, but Option 2 seems a little unfair in that the original post did (in my view) bring that whole argument into play. (just my opinion). Option 1 is probably equally as fair to both sides as Option 3, and maybe that's what should have happened, but we try to be as hands-off as possible, because that type of solution tends to lessen the discussion rather than broaden it.

Just my 2 cents. Overall, I wish we could all agree to let bygones be bygones, and quit bringing up these same old arguments over and over again.

BroncoWave
10-18-2010, 01:38 PM
okay, bumping this thread because i've got some input. . .


i was reading through the thread about scheffler getting an extension, and these were two of the first posts. . .






IMO, both of those posters should be banned for blatant trolling, because that's all that is-- plain and simple. . . ****. . . perfect example of someone just looking for an argument-- no attempt to contribute anything of value to the discussion, just going out of their way to piss on a harmless thread. . . i mean, it's one thing to post a sarcastic response to some of the idiot threads that get posted here in BT (specifically on game day), but it's something else to seek out an inoffensive news piece in the other teams section to troll it. . .

want to make this a more pleasant place? THAT'S the type of bullshit that needs to get cleaned up. . .

Maybe if people wouldn't make troll threads they wouldn't get troll responses. I think you are pretty naive if you think that thread was started with any intentions other than to piss people off. Had he just left it at the article it would have been one thing but when he added "It looks like the Lions didn't get the memo about Scheffler not being a team player" it's pretty clear what the intent of the thread was.

Thankfully you are not a mod though so if you think I should be banned take it up with them instead of doing the exact same thing you are accusing others of doing by directly attacking other posters.

I also think it's VERY convenient how you left out this post:

http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1092783&postcount=12

I guess it's only a bad thing when they post something that differs from your opinion?

BroncoWave
10-18-2010, 02:03 PM
Would the same comments have been made if the original post hadn't set the "team player" bait out there? Maybe.. . sadly probably they would have, but how can a moderating staff that tries it's darndest to call the shots in a fair manner call out the responses while ignoring the original post?

I can't speak for JR but I absolutely wouldn't have made that comment had the original comment not been made. If you go through the other NFL teams section you will see that I have posted in almost none of those threads other than the "other games" thread. Not one post in the threads about Hillis, Marshall, Torain, or any other former Broncos. I probably shouldn't have posted in this one either but the OP was asking for it.

Tempus Fugit
10-18-2010, 02:12 PM
Been a while since I posted in a gripe thread, so just to keep current:

I was an "unhappy camper" about several posters here. I used the ignore feature, and my experience here is much better now. My suggestions: stop trying to eliminate all confrontation, because you can't do that and still have a board that's worth a damn, and stop trying to "fix" what's not broken. Don't delete posts that aren't obscene, completely uncalled for (the cheering in a death thread type of posts) or spam, but allow them to remain for people to judge for themselves. Realize that some people simply don't mesh, and put and end to things only when they get truly out of hand.

I know that I repeat this as if it's a broken record, but people can use the "ignore" feature. That's what it's there for.

BroncoWave
10-18-2010, 02:19 PM
Been a while since I posted in a gripe thread, so just to keep current:

I was an "unhappy camper" about several posters here. I used the ignore feature, and my experience here is much better now. My suggestions: stop trying to eliminate all confrontation, because you can't do that and still have a board that's worth a damn, and stop trying to "fix" what's not broken. Don't delete posts that aren't obscene, completely uncalled for (the cheering in a death thread type of posts) or spam, but allow them to remain for people to judge for themselves. Realize that some people simply don't mesh, and put and end to things only when they get truly out of hand.

I know that I repeat this as if it's a broken record, but people can use the "ignore" feature. That's what it's there for.

Great post. If we're going to try and eliminate arguing we might as well just get rid of this message board. I personally think some of the reaction to what has been going on is pretty over the top but I don't want to expand on that since I've already let Tned and the mods know my feelings on those matters in private.

Lonestar
10-18-2010, 02:31 PM
I can't speak for JR but I absolutely wouldn't have made that comment had the original comment not been made. I I probably shouldn't have posted in this one either but the OP was asking for it.

I also would not have responded the way I did to this.


It looks like the Lions didn't get the memo about Scheffler not being a team player.

my response was

Who cares, he got to go home and is not a bronco anymore.

At the time I was on mobile and when I pulled up new posts (which does not state which forum it is in) it was setting there. Begging for a response.

Not seeing that it was NOT in BT I made the response that I did.

Which would have been appropriate for BT.

Former players threads have been started in BT many times and frankly I thought that was where it was.

Pardon me all to hell.

GEM
10-18-2010, 02:57 PM
okay, bumping this thread because i've got some input. . .


i was reading through the thread about scheffler getting an extension, and these were two of the first posts. . .






IMO, both of those posters should be banned for blatant trolling, because that's all that is-- plain and simple. . . ****. . . perfect example of someone just looking for an argument-- no attempt to contribute anything of value to the discussion, just going out of their way to piss on a harmless thread. . . i mean, it's one thing to post a sarcastic response to some of the idiot threads that get posted here in BT (specifically on game day), but it's something else to seek out an inoffensive news piece in the other teams section to troll it. . .

want to make this a more pleasant place? THAT'S the type of bullshit that needs to get cleaned up. . .


To be fair, dog....the original poster had to throw in the line of being a problem teammate. That right there is a bait, waiting for an answer. If he had just posted about Sheffler getting the extension, then your argument would be fair, but with the added line, he is laying the bait and someone is going to answer.

:shrugs:

KCL
10-18-2010, 03:04 PM
To be fair, dog....the original poster had to throw in the line of being a problem teammate. That right there is a bait, waiting for an answer. If he had just posted about Sheffler getting the extension, then your argument would be fair, but with the added line, he is laying the bait and someone is going to answer.

:shrugs:

It's the nature of the beast...:shocked:

GEM
10-18-2010, 03:06 PM
It's the nature of the beast...:shocked:

The amazing thing is that different people see different things. :laugh:

Northman
10-18-2010, 03:22 PM
To be fair, dog....the original poster had to throw in the line of being a problem teammate. That right there is a bait, waiting for an answer. If he had just posted about Sheffler getting the extension, then your argument would be fair, but with the added line, he is laying the bait and someone is going to answer.

:shrugs:

Maybe we need an "negative" only forum.

KCL
10-18-2010, 03:28 PM
The amazing thing is that different people see different things. :laugh:

I know and before I posted about that thread..I didn't realize that the thread starter had added that in about a team player but still...people need to chill a bit..easier said than done of course.

KCL
10-18-2010, 03:29 PM
Maybe we need an "negative" only forum.

Why? People would just find fault in whatever was posted in there...it's a
vicious circle..;)

Northman
10-18-2010, 03:31 PM
I know and before I posted about that thread..I didn't realize that the thread starter had added that in about a team player but still...people need to chill a bit..easier said than done of course.

Its a snowball effect. That thread was created because some were bashing probably that poster and the player which when he got the extension the poster felt vindicated and posted as such. But honestly, it was posted in the other teams section and should not have had those responses at all. If it was in Bronco Talk, i could see it but it wasnt even in that forum so the OP was ok in my mind. Its not like it was rocket science, we knew who the topic was about.

Northman
10-18-2010, 03:33 PM
Why? People would just find fault in whatever was posted in there...it's a
vicious circle..;)

Exactly. But yet we have to have a "positive only gamethread". :lol:

KCL
10-18-2010, 03:34 PM
I just went and looked at the thread that's being discussed and 2 mods gave it
a high5.

My point is I am guessing they didn't see a problem with it.

Northman
10-18-2010, 03:38 PM
I just went and looked at the thread that's being discussed and 2 mods gave it
a high5.

My point is I am guessing they didn't see a problem with it.


Yes and no. To think the Mods can go into everything Bronco related and be totally unbiased is false. I see it all the time on here. Regardless of their duties they still have feelings on these matters one way or another. NTL was a perfect example of that from what he posted in this thread. Mods are still human just like the rest of us and sometimes that can complicate things when it comes to making decisions.

GEM
10-18-2010, 03:39 PM
Maybe we need an "negative" only forum.

Or maybe we all can grow up a bit and stop posting with the intent to piss the other side off. :shrugs:

KCL
10-18-2010, 03:40 PM
Yes and no. To think the Mods can go into everything Bronco related and be totally unbiased is false. I see it all the time on here. Regardless of their duties they still have feelings on these matters one way or another. NTL was a perfect example of that from what he posted in this thread. Mods are still human just like the rest of us and sometimes that can complicate things when it comes to making decisions.

Hmmmm...that sounds a little odd but that's all I'll say about that.

Northman
10-18-2010, 03:41 PM
Or maybe we all can grow up a bit and stop posting with the intent to piss the other side off. :shrugs:

Will never happen. It will continue to be a us vs them with both sides pointing the fingers at one another. EVERYONE is to blame on here and EVERYONE should do better but if it hasnt fixed itself now it never will. Its not just the members, its the owner and mods as well. Its a pretty open problem right now.

Northman
10-18-2010, 03:42 PM
[/U]

Hmmmm...that sounds a little odd but that's all I'll say about that.

What confuses you?

KCL
10-18-2010, 03:43 PM
Exactly. But yet we have to have a "positive only gamethread". :lol:

I know...seems silly (not intending to offend anyone)...:lol:

GEM
10-18-2010, 03:44 PM
Its a snowball effect. That thread was created because some were bashing probably that poster and the player which when he got the extension the poster felt vindicated and posted as such. But honestly, it was posted in the other teams section and should not have had those responses at all. If it was in Bronco Talk, i could see it but it wasnt even in that forum so the OP was ok in my mind. Its not like it was rocket science, we knew who the topic was about.

That's the point. The topic of the thread was Detroit and Sheffler. There was no reason to put the little remark, other than to cause a reaction from the other side. If it were in OTHER TEAMS and had just been about the OTHER TEAM, there was no reason to bring up the Broncos bit. It's a bait, pure and simple. He put it there, he got the reaction he wanted.

We all need to start with our own behavior and stop with the blaming of the other side. Rather than retaliate, report. It would cut down on the petty bullshit fights we're having around here.

KCL
10-18-2010, 03:44 PM
What confuses you?

I said I wasn't going to say anymore about that...:tsk:

;)

Northman
10-18-2010, 03:45 PM
I said I wasn't going to say anymore about that...:tsk:

;)


Should we get a room? :lol:

Northman
10-18-2010, 03:46 PM
That's the point. The topic of the thread was Detroit and Sheffler. There was no reason to put the little remark, other than to cause a reaction from the other side. If it were in OTHER TEAMS and had just been about the OTHER TEAM, there was no reason to bring up the Broncos bit. It's a bait, pure and simple. He put it there, he got the reaction he wanted.

We all need to start with our own behavior and stop with the blaming of the other side. Rather than retaliate, report. It would cut down on the petty bullshit fights we're having around here.


He never mentioned the Broncos.

GEM
10-18-2010, 03:47 PM
Will never happen. It will continue to be a us vs them with both sides pointing the fingers at one another. EVERYONE is to blame on here and EVERYONE should do better but if it hasnt fixed itself now it never will. Its not just the members, its the owner and mods as well. Its a pretty open problem right now.

You are exactly right. There isn't one side that has been better in this stuff than the other, and no one is innocent, from the top on down. I fully admit that I have let some things get to me and I react. I have in the last week decided I'd rather just not post than post something that makes me a part of the problem. 7 or 8 times in the past week, I have responded to a post that pissed me off and just hit refresh instead of send, as it would make me no better than those that piss me off. :shrugs:

GEM
10-18-2010, 03:49 PM
He never mentioned the Broncos.

No, but the intention wasn't hard to figure out.

That's just like Poster A responds to Poster B without quoting his exact post, he responds with a personal attack. Then when called on it, Poster A says...I just said that in general, when it's blatantly obvious that the intent was to get away with a personal attack, by skirting the rule.

Northman
10-18-2010, 03:56 PM
No, but the intention wasn't hard to figure out.

That's just like Poster A responds to Poster B without quoting his exact post, he responds with a personal attack. Then when called on it, Poster A says...I just said that in general, when it's blatantly obvious that the intent was to get away with a personal attack, by skirting the rule.


Problem is, the thread starter posted the news in the right spot. Now, if poster B doenst like said player and sees that thread he is going to go in for one purpose and one purpose only. And that is too pick a fight. The "intention" was to show that poster A was correct in his view about Sheffler being wanted and worth something to the Lions. My biggest problem right now is that we are making threads that accomodate those who dont like negative views but then those who want to post about players they still like cant say anything in their own right without being attacked or having their threads highjacked. Did the comment in question have some sarcasm? Yep. But, he didnt name any names and wanted to vent in his own right. He should be entitled to that as long as he isnt personally attacking someone. The fact that a couple of guys took upon themselves to enter a thread of a player that they clearly dont like or care for tells me THEY only had one purpose.

GEM
10-18-2010, 04:04 PM
Problem is, the thread starter posted the news in the right spot. Now, if poster B doenst like said player and sees that thread he is going to go in for one purpose and one purpose only. And that is too pick a fight. The "intention" was to show that poster A was correct in his view about Sheffler being wanted and worth something to the Lions. My biggest problem right now is that we are making threads that accomodate those who dont like negative views but then those who want to post about players they still like cant say anything in their own right without being attacked or having their threads highjacked. Did the comment in question have some sarcasm? Yep. But, he didnt name any names and wanted to vent in his own right. He should be entitled to that as long as he isnt personally attacking someone. The fact that a couple of guys took upon themselves to enter a thread of a player that they clearly dont like or care for tells me THEY only had one purpose.

Had he just posted the article and left off the remark and those guys came in and made those comments, by all rights, those posters could be hit for baiting.

Just as he is entitled to make the remark, he knows at that point that he will get remarks in return....the very definition of baiting. Then everyone jumps on those that react. It's silly really.

We have no idea if the posters would have made disparaging remarks because they reacted to bait that was laid out in front of them. You can't be guilty of something and then point a finger at someone who is reacting.

I guess you could say...well they do it all the time...the problem with that is...have they been reported for it? Has it been brought to the attention of staff and just been ignored? If that were the case, we would have a bigger problem on our hands. Unfortunately, instead of allowing staff to do the jobs set before them, most decide to just take it into their own hands.

Denver Native (Carol)
10-18-2010, 04:18 PM
No, but the intention wasn't hard to figure out.

That's just like Poster A responds to Poster B without quoting his exact post, he responds with a personal attack. Then when called on it, Poster A says...I just said that in general, when it's blatantly obvious that the intent was to get away with a personal attack, by skirting the rule.

I totally agree - the following comment in the initial post - set the tone for agreeing, and reasons why, or disagreeing, and reasons why, and then could/would escalate into personal attacks.

Comment:

"It looks like the Lions didn't get the memo about Scheffler not being a team player."

Again, that added comment, set the tone for the thread.

dogfish
10-18-2010, 04:31 PM
I usually try to stay out of Town Hall threads due to my position at a Moderator, which adds more authority to my posts than what they should have, but I have to answer this post.

Please take my 2 cents as only that of a poster. Forget for a minute that I'm a Moderator (i.e. this opinion is probably not shared by the rest of the moderator staff and/or Admin).

I agree with your post first of all. This is exactly the type of stuff that leads to arguments and causes hard feelings between folks who should otherwise all be "on the same team".

However, I have to point out the very first line of the original post to start the thread:



A couple of thoughts.

1. Some have argued that Scheff wasn't a "team player", but I don't think the Broncos organization has ever made an official statement to that effect.

2. That line is just begging for someone who does believe that Scheff wasn't a team player and/or that the Broncos made a good decision in letting him go to take over the thread and make that the topic of discussion.

Would the same comments have been made if the original post hadn't set the "team player" bait out there? Maybe.. . sadly probably they would have, but how can a moderating staff that tries it's darndest to call the shots in a fair manner call out the responses while ignoring the original post?

There are three possible outcomes.

1. Delete the original comment and the responses you pointed out.

2. Delete just the responses you pointed out.

3. Let the whole thing stand.

Option 3 is what's happened so far, but Option 2 seems a little unfair in that the original post did (in my view) bring that whole argument into play. (just my opinion). Option 1 is probably equally as fair to both sides as Option 3, and maybe that's what should have happened, but we try to be as hands-off as possible, because that type of solution tends to lessen the discussion rather than broaden it.

Just my 2 cents. Overall, I wish we could all agree to let bygones be bygones, and quit bringing up these same old arguments over and over again.


To be fair, dog....the original poster had to throw in the line of being a problem teammate. That right there is a bait, waiting for an answer. If he had just posted about Sheffler getting the extension, then your argument would be fair, but with the added line, he is laying the bait and someone is going to answer.

:shrugs:


i perceive a significant difference between the OP and the responses. . . .

the original post was a legitimate piece of news that had a sour comment thrown in at the end-- the responses were addressed directly to the OP, and didn't even pretend to be football-related. . . if those posters had responded with "the lions made a mistake-- they'll find out what a bum scheffler is," i would have zero problem with it. . . they're entitled to rag on the guy until the end of time if it makes them happy. . .

however, their posts weren't about scheffler, or even about mcD's decision to trade him-- just pretty much flat-out "your thread sucks and you suck for posting it". . . which i wouldn't have complained about if the thread had been posted in broncos talk, but it was where it's supposed to be. . .

if other people have a problem with the thread itself, then do what i'm doing and bring it up. . . but even if you consider the thread a problem (i don't), it still doesn't justify trolling. . .

Lonestar
10-18-2010, 04:37 PM
Originally Posted by GEM View Post
No, but the intention wasn't hard to figure out.

That's just like Poster A responds to Poster B without quoting his exact post, he responds with a personal attack. Then when called on it, Poster A says...I just said that in general, when it's blatantly obvious that the intent was to get away with a personal attack, by skirting the rule.

There are so many different threads and areas with in the forum. One would be hard pressed for some one NOT to offend someone else.. In the above mentioned scenario.

One could go into another area or thread and still not know what some one said. as well as not have seen said seeing the exact post. yet still get dinged for a post.

Contrary to popular belief unlike some on here, I do not hold a comment made from 8 years ago up for current introspection.

Tned
10-18-2010, 04:42 PM
Holy crap. I read Dog's post and saw a few replies, then go to respond to this and notice there are two more pages!!


The amazing thing is that different people see different things. :laugh:

I think this is the real problem.

Gem and I are perfect examples (hopefully she won't mind me using us as example).

We have had a fair amount of discussion via MHS, PM and the mod forum recently about a few specific posts/threads and our perception of what happened, what the intentions were, etc. are completely different. Now, it goes without saying that she's wrong and I'm right, but putting that aside, the key here is that we are both good intentioned, reasonable people that respect each other, but we are reading the exact same stuff and seeing it completely different.

We all have so much baggage from the last five or six years of Broncodom, that I think many of us have found our objectivity a little lost or lacking, and tend to only see things from our side of the many deep divides.

Now, of course I was kidding about me being right and Gem wrong (or was I ;)), but the main point I was trying to make is how much perception is playing a part here, and how differently people are viewing the same posts, action, opinions, etc.

Shazam!
10-18-2010, 04:50 PM
I dont know if Im the only one but I dont see it as being problematic.

There is plenty of healthy discussion and debate going on.

Lonestar
10-18-2010, 04:50 PM
Holy crap. I read Dog's post and saw a few replies, then go to respond to this and notice there are two more pages!!



I think this is the real problem.

Gem and I are perfect examples (hopefully she won't mind me using us as example).

We have had a fair amount of discussion via MHS, PM and the mod forum recently about a few specific posts/threads and our perception of what happened, what the intentions were, etc. are completely different. Now, it goes without saying that she's wrong and I'm right, but putting that aside, the key here is that we are both good intentioned, reasonable people that respect each other, but we are reading the exact same stuff and seeing it completely different.

We all have so much baggage from the last five or six years of Broncodom, that I think many of us have found our objectivity a little lost or lacking, and tend to only see things from our side of the many deep divides.

Now, of course I was kidding about me being right and Gem wrong (or was I ;)), but the main point I was trying to make is how much perception is playing a part here, and how differently people are viewing the same posts, action, opinions, etc.

Wow MIGHT have to bookmark this for 6 years from now.:laugh::laugh::laugh:

Northman
10-18-2010, 04:55 PM
i perceive a significant difference between the OP and the responses. . . .

the original post was a legitimate piece of news that had a sour comment thrown in at the end-- the responses were addressed directly to the OP, and didn't even pretend to be football-related. . . if those posters had responded with "the lions made a mistake-- they'll find out what a bum scheffler is," i would have zero problem with it. . . they're entitled to rag on the guy until the end of time if it makes them happy. . .

however, their posts weren't about scheffler, or even about mcD's decision to trade him-- just pretty much flat-out "your thread sucks and you suck for posting it". . . which i wouldn't have complained about if the thread had been posted in broncos talk, but it was where it's supposed to be. . .

if other people have a problem with the thread itself, then do what i'm doing and bring it up. . . but even if you consider the thread a problem (i don't), it still doesn't justify trolling. . .


Ding ding ding. We have a winner.

Coach's, politicians, are all fair game when it comes to criticizing. Members of the board are not and that is where the line was crossed.

HORSEPOWER 56
10-18-2010, 04:56 PM
IMO, we just need to cowboy up a little and stop being so damned sensitive about things we don't agree with. I'm pretty sure that the vast majority of the regulars here are grown-assed adults who should be able to take care of themselves.

Really, is arguing about opinions about the Broncos really that taxing? Is it really so hard that we need a "police force" to lay the smack down? If you don't like a certain poster... there's an ignore button. If it looks like a troll thread... stay out of it, it probably is. If you don't like getting your poor wittle feelings hurt because someone says something negative about the Broncos organization that you don't agree with, YOU'RE IN THE WRONG PLACE!!!!!!

:coffee:

Tned
10-18-2010, 04:56 PM
Wow MIGHT have to bookmark this for 6 years from now.:laugh::laugh::laugh:

Maybe it would be better to truly live up to what you posted a few posts up and stop worrying about what people said, whether it's 8 years ago, 6 years ago, or 6 months ago, and just focus on what you say.

If we all did a little more of that, myself included, this would be a nicer place, but could still have nice, lively debates.

BroncoWave
10-18-2010, 05:02 PM
i perceive a significant difference between the OP and the responses. . . .

the original post was a legitimate piece of news that had a sour comment thrown in at the end-- the responses were addressed directly to the OP, and didn't even pretend to be football-related. . . if those posters had responded with "the lions made a mistake-- they'll find out what a bum scheffler is," i would have zero problem with it. . . they're entitled to rag on the guy until the end of time if it makes them happy. . .

however, their posts weren't about scheffler, or even about mcD's decision to trade him-- just pretty much flat-out "your thread sucks and you suck for posting it". . . which i wouldn't have complained about if the thread had been posted in broncos talk, but it was where it's supposed to be. . .

if other people have a problem with the thread itself, then do what i'm doing and bring it up. . . but even if you consider the thread a problem (i don't), it still doesn't justify trolling. . .

But it's ok for you to openly attack JR and me in this thread? Let's try to stay consistent with our arguments now.

Northman
10-18-2010, 05:12 PM
But it's ok for you to openly attack JR and me in this thread? Let's try to stay consistent with our arguments now.

How did he attack you? He was using you two as a reference point of examples.

BroncoWave
10-18-2010, 05:18 PM
How did he attack you? He was using you two as a reference point of examples.

This part of his post right here:

"IMO, both of those posters should be banned for blatant trolling"

I was told by a mod when I was banned last week that accusing a poster of trolling is a personal attack and against the CoC.

Northman
10-18-2010, 05:34 PM
This part of his post right here:

"IMO, both of those posters should be banned for blatant trolling"

I was told by a mod when I was banned last week that accusing a poster of trolling is a personal attack and against the CoC.


Well, i dont agree with the banning of you two over the comments but i can certainly agree that they werent warranted. As for the Trolling comment i think everyone has been guilty of saying something like that in a lot of threads. :lol:

BroncoWave
10-18-2010, 05:40 PM
Well, i dont agree with the banning of you two over the comments but i can certainly agree that they werent warranted. As for the Trolling comment i think everyone has been guilty of saying something like that in a lot of threads. :lol:

Agreed, but apparently that's not kosher around here any more.

Northman
10-18-2010, 05:47 PM
Agreed, but apparently that's not kosher around here any more.

As i just found out through PM its obviously not. :lol:

GEM
10-18-2010, 05:49 PM
As i just found out through PM its obviously not. :lol:

Dork.

spikerman
10-18-2010, 05:50 PM
Gimme a break.

KCL
10-18-2010, 06:06 PM
Should we get a room? :lol:

:shocked:

do we need to...:lol:

Nomad
10-18-2010, 06:08 PM
KCL for MOD!!!!:nixon:

KCL
10-18-2010, 06:11 PM
KCL for MOD!!!!:nixon:

:lol:

On what grounds? That sounds like punishment.

dogfish
10-18-2010, 06:26 PM
But it's ok for you to openly attack JR and me in this thread? Let's try to stay consistent with our arguments now.

openly attacking you?

hardly. . . never even mentioned your name, or said one word about you as an individual-- just made a comment about a post that i felt was inappropriate. . .

BroncoNut
10-18-2010, 06:30 PM
I guess I don't see what the big deal is, but this is kinda interesting

nevcraw
10-18-2010, 08:36 PM
Personally I wonder how it's possible to get too upset about anything on here, it's not like we have to live together..
this place would suck outright if we all agreed on anything.. I very much enjoy some good jawing and banter and find it (within reason) to be one of the reasons I come here.

Skins seem to be quite thin these days as we all wait see what is going to happen with our beloved team -- but it would do us all some good to remember that our opinions are just that and don't really have any impact on the outcome. Fearing an opposition will not change the inevitable so why not embrace the unknown and question everything and allow others to do so...

sorry for the ramble...

Go broncos..