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View Full Version : If you're not sold on McDaniels, what will it take?



Tned
10-02-2010, 03:25 PM
Ok, i'm curious. At the risk of starting a thread that will spiral out of control, I think it's a topic worth discussing

While this doesn't apply to everyone, a great many people now fall into one of the following two categories:


Defend McDaniels unconditionally, which typically also includes bashing Shanahan and former players.
Criticize McDaniels and every decision he makes, while never, or rarely, giving him credit for the good decisions.


There is no point in asking what it will take to get those bashing former players/coaches to stop, because clearly those ex-players/coaches are not going to do anything to change their minds, and those attacking them simply as a means of defending McDaniels and current players (a lot of the bashing), won't stop until they feel the McDaniels criticism has stopped. Those bashing them based on 'emotion', typically feel betrayed in some manner, and nothing those players/coaches do will change that. So, there is really no point in trying to understand/discuss group one, in my opinion.

That leaves us with those that simply don't like McDaniels and criticize him at every turn, rarely, if ever, giving him credit for the good things he's done.

So, my questions are:

Why do you feel this way?
and
What do you need to see McDaniels do before you will be sold on him as a good head coach and want to see him as the Denver head coach for years to come?

Let's discuss it.

dogfish
10-02-2010, 03:33 PM
If you're not sold on McDaniels, what will it take?

winning the mother****in' game!


:salute:

Softskull
10-02-2010, 03:39 PM
My first criteria: Coach McDaniels doesn't seem like the type of guy that I'd want to sit down and have a beer with, and I'm not horribly particular in that category.

I don’t like the spread offense. I still believe in the running game. I'm still a West Coast guy, but I'm trying to make the transition.

Finally, just win baby!

Northman
10-02-2010, 03:42 PM
Ultimately for me is pretty much what Dog is eluding too. Just win. Its really simple.

I know there are going to be "some" growing pains along the way but if we do worse this year than thats regression, not improvement. Sure, i like some of the players we have gotten and understand why some players are not here so when it comes to personnel i have very little to complain about. I still think Orton is not the answer at QB but he has gone a long way to showing me he can at least be an above average guy as long as he has the tools around him. But, McD is about offense and that all starts at the QB position so in the long run im not sure that Kyle will be that guy. And maybe thats why Tebow was taken.

To answer the question simply. Just win.

This team started rebuilding in 06' and its not the fans fault that McD felt that he needed to strip it all down and start again. So, my patience in regards to getting back to the playoffs is limited to a 3 year window SO AS LONG AS I SEE PROGRESS. Which means, improving record wise. If we plummet this year it will not do anything to get me 100% on his bandwagon. If McD wins the division and a playoff birth im totally on board.

silkamilkamonico
10-02-2010, 03:46 PM
Just win. Although i do love his offense. The last thing I want is getting some headcoach that wants to run the ball all game, like a majority of the NFL head coaches do. That's just f'n boring football to watch.

Northman
10-02-2010, 03:47 PM
The last thing I want is getting some headcoach that wants to run the ball all game, like a majority of the NFL head coaches do. That's just f'n boring football to watch.

Even if they win?

Tned
10-02-2010, 03:50 PM
My first criteria: Coach McDaniels doesn't seem like the type of guy that I'd want to sit down and have a beer with, and I'm not horribly particular in that category.

Out of curiosity, why do you say this?

CHARLIEADAMSFAN
10-02-2010, 03:51 PM
I'm nervous to trust McDaniels. He's handled situations poorly and I feel like he plays the favorites game more than a lot of coaches. I really feel like I fall between those 2 categories. I disagree with getting rid of Marshall. The guy was an absolute stud and although Thomas looks great I don't think it's going to be that easy to replace Marshall. I'm just nervous to trust McDaniels, he's young, and in my opinion still has a lot to learn. Although I don't want him fired, I don't exactly love him either.

silkamilkamonico
10-02-2010, 03:51 PM
Even if they win?

Honestly I could probably deal with it if they won like that. obviously I would be happy about winning, but it wouldn't be sexy to watch.

One thing with Shanahan, who did win the majority of the time, and even when it was disappointing, at least the offenses were fun and exciting to watch. Especially with the 8-8 Cutler teams.

Could you imagine going 8-8 in Miami Dolphins style? Ugh. I like the rushing game, but it gets to be very monotonous to watch.

silkamilkamonico
10-02-2010, 03:53 PM
I'm nervous to trust McDaniels. He's handled situations poorly and I feel like he plays the favorites game more than a lot of coaches.

I completely disagree. He simply wants guys that buy into his system. taht's not favoring, IMHO. It's fresh to get no nonsense guy that doesn't favor. I honestly feel like the worst thing Shanahan did for Cutler was holding his hand and favoring him while he was here. It's a matter of opinion and perception, but it's how I feel.

claymore
10-02-2010, 03:54 PM
I hate his offense, and his personality. I dont know what it would take. Maybe winning, maybe I wont ever like the guy. Not sure yet.

OrangeHoof
10-02-2010, 03:55 PM
A better question might be:

Did your opinion of McDaniels change when he started last year 6-0?

Did your opinion of McDaniels change when he finished last year 2-8?

If your answers are "no" and "no", then chances are your opinion is too inflexible to matter. If you were willing to give him his props at the start of last year and willing to criticize him towards the end, then I'm interested in what you have to say.

What is he doing that's working? What is he doing that's not? How can he change this and is he willing to change?

broncophan
10-02-2010, 03:59 PM
Not a McD hater.....I support...and always have supported the head coach of the broncos....doesn't mean I have always agreed with decisions/changes they have made.

I like the fact that McD has come in and has not been afraid to make changes that HE wants to make......it is his team.......and for the most part.....drafted talent and drafted kids who were academically sound as well.......he.....like other bronco coaches will sink or swim with his decisions.

Obviously....winning is the key ....and our schedule seems favorable...in the second half for McD and the broncos to progress....and hopefully sneak into the playoffs, somehow ...this season....but if not..........head into next season...with the confidence from the second half of this season......

silkamilkamonico
10-02-2010, 03:59 PM
I hate his offense, and his personality. I dont know what it would take. Maybe winning, maybe I wont ever like the guy. Not sure yet.

What kind of offenses do you like anyways Clay?

claymore
10-02-2010, 04:02 PM
What kind of offenses do you like anyways Clay?

I like an offense that can run the football. One that scores more than 14 points in a shootout. I like mobile QB's too. I like creative playcalling. Misdirection.

silkamilkamonico
10-02-2010, 04:04 PM
I like an offense that can run the football. One that scores more than 14 points in a shootout. I like mobile QB's too. I like creative playcalling. Misdirection.

I thought I liked that offense too, until I watched the Redskins play this year....I'm kidding..

:D

broncohead
10-02-2010, 04:05 PM
I like an offense that scores points.

atwater27
10-02-2010, 04:06 PM
Given the way he tore apart a great offensive roster and got "his" guys at the expense of fixing the defense, which is the only reason Shanny was fired, he would have to do quite a bit to change my mind. What he did to the offense at the expense of the defense personell and draft wise was like me taking over a farm right before a great harvest, and instead of harvesting the perfectly good food, I throw it all in the trash because "I didn't grow it."

I know some people will have a tough time imagining this, but humor me....
What if McDaniels came in, understood the explosive capacity of the existing offensive personell, decided he could work with it and instill his offensive system, then spent most of his time effort and draft picks on rebuilding the defense, how could we not be one of the most successful, exciting young teams in the league right now?

silkamilkamonico
10-02-2010, 04:06 PM
I certainly have been disappointed with McDaniels inability to fix our redzone issues. that was one of his first selling points.

atwater27
10-02-2010, 04:08 PM
The best managers work with what they have, get the most out of their existing talent, then build from there.

claymore
10-02-2010, 04:10 PM
If McD came to my house, personally apologized to me, and cried a little, and asked for forgiveness, then I would say winning would make me like him. .

Softskull
10-02-2010, 04:11 PM
Out of curiosity, why do you say this?

I think it has more to do with how he came across in his first few months here. I believe he's smart, but struck me as arrogant, stiff, cagey and insincere. He's the anti-Tony Dungy in the coaching category. I may be completely wrong, and if he's buying the beer, I just may change my mind.

silkamilkamonico
10-02-2010, 04:11 PM
I know some people will have a tough time imagining this, but humor me....
What if McDaniels came in, understood the explosive capacity of the existing offensive personell, decided he could work with it and instill his offensive system, then spent most of his time effort and draft picks on rebuilding the defense, how could we not be one of the most successful, exciting young teams in the league right now?

I think he knew Cutler wouldn't fit his offense. In truth, Cutler doesn't run a "scheme". He free wheels. He makes plays himself, because he's a very talented rogue QB. Martz has even stated that he has had to adjust his offense around Cutler because Cutler will not read progressions, he waits for a window to open up with a WR and he can hit his window. McDaniels offens makes plays for his QB. he doesn't want his QB freewheeling, he wants his QB playing within the system.

Our offense right now is not that different from when Cutler was here. Explosive between the 20's, couldn't score points, couldn't score in the redzone. This offense can't convert thrid downs, while Cutlers offense insisted on turning the ball over in horrendous areas of the field. both are terrible.

I can understand people being pissed at Mcdaniels for getting rid of Cutler, but with the benefit of hindsight, things have not changed and we have not suffered for it.

spikerman
10-02-2010, 04:16 PM
It's already been said a few times, but the obvious answer is "win". By this point I think it's reasonable to expect the team to show some improvement. I see a lot of people talk about the good direction the team is going in, but I don't see it. Sure, the defense has gotten better, but at the price of youth. Denver is now one of the older teams in the league and I'm sorry to say that I just don't see the young players who are ready to step in behind these veterans. The offense has regressed in McDaniels' time in Denver in my opinion.

I have to admit that when Denver was either 5-0 or 6-0 last year, I started to buy in. I was not happy with the way the offseason went, but the results spoke for themselves. Of course, after yet another collapse I jumped back off the McDaniels' bandwagon and decided then and there that I would not get my hopes up again until Denver won a game in December. Instead of focusing on a 6-0 start, I think of a 2-8 finish over which the only teams with as bad, or worse, records than Denver were St. Louis and Detroit.

So for me to change my mind about him the team would have to start winning or at least moving in the right direction. McDaniels would need to start addressing weaknesses the team has had since before his arrival that he still hasn't fixed (inability to do anything in the red zone, unable to stop the run) and stop trading away talent because of some apparently egotistical belief that he can just outsmart his opponent using unproven players.

Northman
10-02-2010, 04:18 PM
The best managers work with what they have, get the most out of their existing talent, then build from there.

I think that is what has had some fans scratching their head. Its like he didnt even pay attention to the talent he had coming in and didnt at least wait a year to see how his scheme would work with the current roster. At least on the offensive side of the ball. On the defensive side i can understand his need to mess with it from the word go.

atwater27
10-02-2010, 04:19 PM
I think he knew Cutler wouldn't fit his offense. In truth, Cutler doesn't run a "scheme". He free wheels. He makes plays himself, because he's a very talented rogue QB. Martz has even stated that he has had to adjust his offense around Cutler because Cutler will not read progressions, he waits for a window to open up with a WR and he can hit his window. McDaniels offens makes plays for his QB. he doesn't want his QB freewheeling, he wants his QB playing within the system.Plain and simply, and quite undeniably, McDaniels never gave Cutler a chance, and you know it. He didn't know shit about the young QB, and should have been up to the challenge even if he did. Josh failed before he even tried.

Our offense right now is not that different from when Cutler was here. Except we can't run the ball to save our life. You know. That old chestnut. Explosive between the 20's, couldn't score points, couldn't score in the redzone. This offense can't convert thrid downs, while Cutlers offense insisted on turning the ball over in horrendous areas of the field. both are terrible.Which is exactly where Josh's "expert" coaching and sceme changes should have made a difference. But we'll never know because he threw those guys away.

I can understand people being pissed at Mcdaniels for getting rid of Cutler, but with the benefit of hindsight, things have not changed and we have not suffered for it.Cutler is just a small piece of the puzzle that Josh dismantled and trashed right after he got here.

silkamilkamonico
10-02-2010, 04:20 PM
I think that is what has had some fans scratching their head. Its like he didnt even pay attention to the talent he had coming in and didnt at least wait a year to see how his scheme would work with the current roster. At least on the offensive side of the ball. On the defensive side i can understand his need to mess with it from the word go.

People were critical for that, and Shanahan is going through that in Washington for tearing that defense apart which was stout. I wonder if there are just so many dimensions to football nowadays that coaches can only go with what they know.

dogfish
10-02-2010, 04:21 PM
My first criteria: Coach McDaniels doesn't seem like the type of guy that I'd want to sit down and have a beer with, and I'm not horribly particular in that category.


Out of curiosity, why do you say this?

McDaniels can't be trusted! The minute you turned your back, he'd probably trade off your top-shelf IPA for some flavorless TEAM-oriented bullshit lager.






I thought I liked that offense too, until I watched the Redskins play this year....I'm kidding..

:D

take a look at the texans to see how it works when you actually have some talent. . . :heh:

atwater27
10-02-2010, 04:24 PM
People were critical for that, and Shanahan is going through that in Washington for tearing that defense apart which was stout. I wonder if there are just so many dimensions to football nowadays that coaches can only go with what they know.

How is he tearing the defense apart? You mean holding a diva DT that was signed to a ludicrous deal before Shanny got there? And what does Shanny 'know' about a 3-4? I'd say he has some remorse for not doing that D in Denver.

silkamilkamonico
10-02-2010, 04:25 PM
Cutler is just a small piece of the puzzle that Josh dismantled and trashed right after he got here.

What else?

Hillis? Hillis wasn't a part of the puzzle before. Shanahan used him as like the 5th RB on the chart.

Scheffler? Ok, but McDaniels basically covered his production with a WR.

Marshall...that's obvious, and has worked out even better for Denver.

What has McDaniels "trashed" that he wasn't able to replace? Other than possible Hillis (White? unfortunate)> Certainly not an explosive offense that was ranked merely average at 16th in the NFL in scoring points.

He's certainly bettered the defense, and people can quit arguing that it was Nolan that changed the defense around, because that is obviously not true.

silkamilkamonico
10-02-2010, 04:26 PM
take a look at the texans to see how it works when you actually have some talent. . . :heh:

Yea, after he got players that fit the system, which is what McDaniels is still trying to do.

silkamilkamonico
10-02-2010, 04:28 PM
How is he tearing the defense apart? You mean holding a diva DT that was signed to a ludicrous deal before Shanny got there? And what does Shanny 'know' about a 3-4? I'd say he has some remorse for not doing that D in Denver.

In only 3 games, he has managed to turn a perennial top 10 defense into an NFL worst 32nd. He is already gettinbg some of the same criticism from Washington fans for what he has done (or not done) to their defense as McDaniels did with Denver's offense last year.

Ravage!!!
10-02-2010, 04:30 PM
I know I'm critical of McD because of how I feel he's shown an inability to get along with people, whether that be players or coaches. I feel, at this point of his career, that he's immature and has a pretty high ego that hinders his ability to get along with many and/or tries to be TOO micro-managing and too controlling. I'd like to also note that I contribute most of these attributes to being a young coach and this being his first time in the HC position (which is why I think it was much too early to give him such control over personnel).

Now I said this first, not to bash McD...because there have been many forums/threads that give ample opportunity to do that... I state it because it leads into what I personally would need to be "sold" on McD.

I think the biggest answer we are going to see is "wins." But sometimes the W-L record doesn't tell who the best team is, and certainly doesn't tell the whole story as to what happened on the field. So although people can live with wins, I think simply looking at the column on the left is a short-term solution.

I personally want to see a "solid" improvement. Thats a hard thing to put into specifics, because so many want to hold you to "numbers." They want to have specific stats that represent your thoughts. Some need to see a certain number of wins. Right now it appears the passing game is improved, but we can't score. So is the offense improved? We passed for a ton of yards in '08 as well, because we had to throw the ball a ton. Putting up big numbers when throwing the ball 57 times a game doesn't really impress me.

Obviously, wins is a starting point, but give me a reason that I can believe that we actually ARE a better team than we were last year, OR, that we are a better team then the one on the other side of the field. I look at our schedule, and the only team I see on that list is Oakland (and I think we split with them), Rams and Cardinals (right now).

I'm a believer that the best teams have the best players. I personally would like to stop bleeding talent. Rarely does a team with 'mediocre' talent go anywhere unless they have either an elite talent at QB, or an elite defense. It sounds soooo nice to say "they need to be TEAM players" but the fact of the matter is, we need players that are BETTER than the opposing team's players.

Draft. Before previous coaches were fired, the loudest cry around the boards is how we need to stop signing so many FAs and "BUILD THROUGH THE DRAFT!!" Drafts were constantly complained and griped about. Now, our current regime is giving away draft picks at alarming rates to move up on "projects" or players that we just don't need.

I don't know how to get specific. Its a hard question. But I think the best answer on what it would take, for me, to be sold on him is the same answer I give when asked about Moreno... "SHOW me something." Show me SOMETHING. Its hard to watch some of the best talent this team has had in a decade (if not longer) go out the door and our offense go from what was considered to be one of the best young offenses in the NFL, to being so pathetic and void of talent.

If you are going to come in and dismantle, then please, SHOW me something that pulls me up the rope ladder. I WANT to be aboard, but I'm not simply going to follow you purely because you wear the HC hat. I have to believe in what you are doing.

atwater27
10-02-2010, 04:36 PM
What else?

Hillis? Hillis wasn't a part of the puzzle before. Shanahan used him as like the 5th RB on the chart.He was a rookie. Stop imaginging that he wasn't prominent in Shanahan's plans as a 2nd year player, which Josh obviously fumbled.

Scheffler? Ok, but McDaniels basically covered his production with a WR.Alot of good the spread O is doing us, huh? Good for fantasy football, not for winning.

Marshall...that's obvious, and has worked out even better for Denver.fair enough, but Shanny might have been able to work something out with his troubled draft pick

What has McDaniels "trashed" that he wasn't able to replace? Other than possible Hillis (White? unfortunate)> Certainly not an explosive offense that was ranked merely average at 16th in the NFL in scoring points. What has he trashed???? Opportunities, potential draft picks and free agents for the defense instead of trying to replace what he got rid of... and the sad thing is he didn't even have enough confidence in Orton to not waste a 1st rounder on a QB instead of MUCH NEEDED defensive talent.

He's certainly bettered the defense, and people can quit arguing that it was Nolan that changed the defense around, because that is obviously not true.

Please. Nolan made the defense. We are obviously missing his presence this year.

Ravage!!!
10-02-2010, 04:36 PM
. Martz has even stated that he has had to adjust his offense around Cutler because Cutler will not read progressions, he waits for a window to open up with a WR and he can hit his window.

I've never heard anything like that come from Martz, do you have a link to that statement, because its completely opposite from everything I've heard/read Martz say.

atwater27
10-02-2010, 04:38 PM
In only 3 games, he has managed to turn a perennial top 10 defense into an NFL worst 32nd. He is already gettinbg some of the same criticism from Washington fans for what he has done (or not done) to their defense as McDaniels did with Denver's offense last year.

Fair enough. Start a thread and stick to the topic.

silkamilkamonico
10-02-2010, 04:41 PM
Please. Nolan made the defense. We are obviously missing his presence this year.

Our defense is 18th, without our best defensive player who was our most dynamic player under Nolan, and light years better than anything Shanahan gave us since 2005. Not only did mcDaniels not "trash" the offense in terms of production, but he has immediately upgraded our defense from the garbage defense Shanahan gave us.

You add Dumervil to our defense this year, and we are likely a shade worse than our defense last year...that's it.

Tned
10-02-2010, 04:42 PM
McDaniels can't be trusted! The minute you turned your back, he'd probably trade off your top-shelf IPA for some flavorless TEAM-oriented bullshit lager.



I like lager...

silkamilkamonico
10-02-2010, 04:43 PM
I've never heard anything like that come from Martz, do you have a link to that statement, because its completely opposite from everything I've heard/read Martz say.

I'm not wasting time posting a link so choose not to believe, but Martz has gone away from his dink and dunk to allow Cutler to make his plays down the field, because he's a "special" player.

silkamilkamonico
10-02-2010, 04:45 PM
Fair enough. Start a thread and stick to the topic.

You're the one who played along, and then somehow "fair enough" = "please stick to the topic".

Let's both follow that advice.

Ravage!!!
10-02-2010, 04:45 PM
I'm not wasting time posting a link so choose not to believe, but Martz has gone away from his dink and dunk to allow Cutler to make his plays down the field, because he's a "special" player.

SOrry.. I'm not buying that. Now it sounds like you are putting words into Martz's mouth to make your observation substantial.

Martz has never had a dink-n-dunk offense.

spikerman
10-02-2010, 04:45 PM
I'm not wasting time posting a link so choose not to believe, but Martz has gone away from his dink and dunk to allow Cutler to make his plays down the field, because he's a "special" player.

Well, he is 3-0 without a great running game and mediocre receivers. Oh, but he does have a nice pass catching TE which is helpful.

Tned
10-02-2010, 04:45 PM
In only 3 games, he has managed to turn a perennial top 10 defense into an NFL worst 32nd. He is already gettinbg some of the same criticism from Washington fans for what he has done (or not done) to their defense as McDaniels did with Denver's offense last year.

I take it you fall into group one, unconditionally defend McDaniels and bash former players/coaches as a means to defend him. Correct?

silkamilkamonico
10-02-2010, 04:47 PM
SOrry.. I'm not buying that. Now it sounds like you are putting words into Martz's mouth to make your observation substantial.

Martz has never had a dink-n-dunk offense.

His dink and dunk is what got him fired from SF, and Detroit.

Ravage!!!
10-02-2010, 04:48 PM
His dink and dunk is what got him fired from SF, and Detroit.

What QBs did he have in Detroit and SF at the time, and what passes were THEY choosing to throw? I never saw a dink-n-dunk offense in St. Louis.... ever.

silkamilkamonico
10-02-2010, 04:49 PM
I take it you fall into group one, unconditionally defend McDaniels and bash former players/coaches as a means to defend him. Correct?

I don't know..did you just conveniently leave out post #19 for the sake of your own argument?

I also love how you completely ignore the fact that I have said great things, and then some more great things about Cutler again and again, but feel free to conveniently ignore that aspect of it too.

silkamilkamonico
10-02-2010, 04:50 PM
What QBs did he have in Detroit and SF at the time, and what passes were THEY choosing to throw? I never saw a dink-n-dunk offense in St. Louis.... ever.

His offense in St Louis was a mirror image of Dick Vermiel's installation, the same one he brought to him with Kansas City.

spikerman
10-02-2010, 04:51 PM
What QBs did he have in Detroit and SF at the time, and what passes were THEY choosing to throw? I never saw a dink-n-dunk offense in St. Louis.... ever.

I saw one in St. Louis last year.... It was weird, though - the Rams were wearing ("predominantly") orange and blue uniforms with horseheads on their helmets. Now THAT was a dink and dunk offense.

Ravage!!!
10-02-2010, 04:55 PM
His offense in St Louis was a mirror image of Dick Vermiel's installation, the same one he brought to him with Kansas City.

Dude.. I don't know what games you are watching, but Martz's offense was nothing like the one in KC... at least from the down-field gain tons of chunks that we saw in St Louis. Martz was criticized MAJORLY because he had one of the greatest RBs in the game, and continued to throw the ball DOWN field. Now he did throw a lot of screen passes, just as he does in Chicago... but HIS offense is not some dink-n-dunk. I think you have him confused with someone.

Ravage!!!
10-02-2010, 04:57 PM
But I digress. I'm not going to change the topic of this thread. I have a lot of respect for Silk and his thoughts, but I he posted something I've never even heard of before until now, and just don't believe it.

That being said, this isn't a Martz or a Cutler thread. :beer:

Tned
10-02-2010, 05:05 PM
His dink and dunk is what got him fired from SF, and Detroit.

While it's off topic, I think you need to read up on Martz. He's famous for coming from the "look deep first" group of OC's. His QB's are lucky to stay out of hospitals, because he wants them to stand in the pocket, wait of the deep receiver to come open, and only if that doesn't happen, does the QB look for a intermediate or dump off receiver.

He's the exact opposite of dink and dunk.

Tned
10-02-2010, 05:08 PM
Yea, once again this thread has turned into "well, if you criticize McDaniels, I can slam Cutler and Shanahan and company to defend him...." nonsense.

So, to restate the original question: If you're not sold on McDaniels, what will it take you to believe he is the right coach for Denver long term?

silkamilkamonico
10-02-2010, 05:10 PM
Well, I am likely wrong about Martz then.

I still stand by my opinion that Cutler is not a system QB in any way, shape, or form, and chooses to force the ball through tight windows to his WR, because he can. I don't think it's a bad thing at all, Cutler has a gifted arm and can make some incredibly throws, but I do think his style of play is why McDaniels did not want him in his offense.

Just my opinion.

silkamilkamonico
10-02-2010, 05:14 PM
Yea, once again this thread has turned into "well, if you criticize McDaniels, I can slam Cutler and Shanahan and company to defend him...." nonsense.

So, to restate the original question: If you're not sold on McDaniels, what will it take you to believe he is the right coach for Denver long term?

What did you expect, especially considering you basically stated that very same direction in your original post?

And I think everyone in this place at the moment has stated their opinion on being sold on McDaniels. Perhaps this thread should wilt until the next crew of members come into play to offer their opinion.

Tned
10-02-2010, 05:20 PM
What did you expect, especially considering you basically stated that very same direction in your original post?

And I think everyone in this place at the moment has stated their opinion on being sold on McDaniels. Perhaps this thread should wilt until the next crew of members come into play to offer their opinion.

Actually, what I stated in the original thread was that group one, that defends McDaniels by bashing ex-players/coaches or bashes them out of some emotion/anger, can't be changed, because those ex-players/coaches are never going to do anything to change the opinions people hold, so there is no sense is discussing the "why" of group 1.

So, the thread was about group 2, the people that aren't sold on McDaniels, and a chance for them to state what it will take to be sold.

You felt it necessary to bash the ex-players/coaches, and try (intentionally or otherwise), into the standard thread death spiral we see so often when posters decide to respond to everything with "Cutlers sucks", "Shanahan sucks", "Marshall sucks", etc.

Maybe it would help if you explained how what Cutler does in Chicago or what Shanahan does in Washington with ALLOW YOU to BUY into McDaniels here. If you can't, then your bashing really doesn't have anything to do with the thread topic. Agreed?

dogfish
10-02-2010, 05:30 PM
seriously, WTF is cutler even doing in this thread?


:noidea:


anybody? buehler??


:whoknows:

Buff
10-02-2010, 05:34 PM
seriously, WTF is cutler even doing in this thread?


:noidea:


anybody? buehler??


:whoknows:

Umm, duh.

Cutler is THE reason some people soured on McD. That drama put a bad taste in their mouths and they've never been able to get over it.

If it weren't for the Cutler situation, there wouldn't be McDaniels hate.

Ravage!!!
10-02-2010, 05:36 PM
seriously, WTF is cutler even doing in this thread?


:noidea:


anybody? buehler??


:whoknows:

Maybe he got lost??? :whoknows:

Tned
10-02-2010, 05:36 PM
Umm, duh.

Cutler is THE reason some people soured on McD. That drama put a bad taste in their mouths and they've never been able to get over it.

If it weren't for the Cutler situation, there wouldn't be McDaniels hate.

Yea, but they didn't bring Cutler up. As usual, he was brought up to defend McDaniels, or just to bash Cutler/Shanny, or whatever.

Maybe if people stop assuming that every criticism of McDaniels some how relates to Cutler, better discussions will ensue.

Ravage!!!
10-02-2010, 05:37 PM
Umm, duh.

Cutler is THE reason some people soured on McD. That drama put a bad taste in their mouths and they've never been able to get over it.

If it weren't for the Cutler situation, there wouldn't be McDaniels hate.

Well.. that and Scheffler, and Hillis, and Marshall, and Alphonso, and Quinn, and Quinn, and Tebow....

Buff
10-02-2010, 05:39 PM
Yea, but they didn't bring Cutler up. As usual, he was brought up to defend McDaniels, or just to bash Cutler/Shanny, or whatever.

Maybe if people stop assuming that every criticism of McDaniels some how relates to Cutler, better discussions will ensue.

You asked the question, then when you didn't like peoples' answers you jumped them for their line of thinking.

Why not let people have a discussion instead of always trying to dictate how it goes.

Tned
10-02-2010, 05:39 PM
Well.. that and Scheffler, and Hillis, and Marshall, and Alphonso, and Tebow....

and losing 10 of the last 13 games.

Tned
10-02-2010, 05:43 PM
You asked the question, then when you didn't like peoples' answers you jumped them for their line of thinking.

Why not let people have a discussion instead of always trying to dictate how it goes.

Because I'm an online, nazi, control freak that likes to censor people. Ok, happy? I'm out of the closet. We cool now. :IliveToCensor:

spikerman
10-02-2010, 05:43 PM
and losing 10 of the last 13 games.

But you can really see what McDaniels is building. If he keeps it up the Broncos will be on a solid pace to win 4 of their next 13.

spikerman
10-02-2010, 05:44 PM
Because I'm an online, nazi, control freak that likes to censor people. Ok, happy. Ok, I'm out of the closet. We cool now. :IliveToCensor:

So you control the internets? I'm humbled by your power.

Buff
10-02-2010, 05:45 PM
Because I'm an online, nazi, control freak that likes to censor people. Ok, happy. Ok, I'm out of the closet. We cool now. :IliveToCensor:

Thank you, I'm glad you've come to terms with your problem. :salute:

Now, as for the topic at hand, I think people will always have gripes with a coach... But the outright dislike/hatred all stems from the Cutler situation. Sure, there have been things that have happened since then, but that was the root of the problem.

Denver Native (Carol)
10-02-2010, 05:46 PM
This may be a little off topic, but I have been a Bronco follower since day one, and I can guarantee you that I never found fault with a coach who was in his 2nd year of coaching the Broncos, regardless who that coach was.

Tned
10-02-2010, 05:47 PM
So you control the internets? I'm humbled by your power.

Yep, didn't you know that? If it wasn't for meing being a control, freak Nazi, who gets aroused by censoring people, there would never be a problem on this board or any other, anywhere. It's a well establish fact ---- or, so I've been told.


But you can really see what McDaniels is building. If he keeps it up the Broncos will be on a solid pace to win 4 of their next 13.

I actually think we are close to being able to win 10 of the next 13. Not sure we are quite there, but I think we are getting close.

spikerman
10-02-2010, 05:48 PM
This may be a little off topic, but I have been a Bronco follower since day one, and I can guarantee you that I never found fault with a coach who was in his 2nd year of coaching the Broncos, regardless who that coach was.

I have. In Wade Phillips' second year I would criticize him constantly because he was supposedly a defensive coach, but his defenses seemed helpless.

Tned
10-02-2010, 05:50 PM
Thank you, I'm glad you've come to terms with your problem. :salute:

Now, as for the topic at hand, I think people will always have gripes with a coach... But the outright dislike/hatred all stems from the Cutler situation. Sure, there have been things that have happened since then, but that was the root of the problem.

The point of this thread was to try and get the people you would call "McDaniels haters" to discuss what it would take for them to jump on board the McDaniels' bandwagon.

Having someone come in and start bashing Shanahan and Cutler has nothing to do with the thread topic, all it serves to do is completely derail the thread topic, as does your defending that off-topic bashing.

Ok, you guys have succeeded in derailing the thread. Any chance you can do your victory dance around your PCs and now we can get back to the topic?

Buff
10-02-2010, 05:53 PM
The point of this thread was to try and get the people you would call "McDaniels haters" to discuss what it would take for them to jump on board the McDaniels' bandwagon.

Having someone come in and start bashing Shanahan and Cutler has nothing to do with the thread topic, all it serves to do is completely derail the thread topic, as does your defending that off-topic bashing.

Ok, you guys have succeeded in derailing the thread. Any chance you can do your victory dance around your PCs and now we can get back to the topic?

Well, it's obviously winning... Nothing will make any of the McD haters happy until we win some playoff games. Until then, they are going to view him through an irrational lens of "this guy is ruining our team."

spikerman
10-02-2010, 05:56 PM
I actually think we are close to being able to win 10 of the next 13. Not sure we are quite there, but I think we are getting close.

I hear other people say things like that, I just don't see where the optimism comes from. If I felt the way you do I would probably be more in his corner.

Tned
10-02-2010, 05:57 PM
Well, it's obviously winning... Nothing will make any of the McD haters happy until we win some playoff games. Until then, they are going to view him through an irrational lens of "this guy is ruining our team."

Ok, so since the thread topic was "If you are not sold on McDaniels...", I take it you are saying you view McDaniels through an irrational lens, but if he wins, you will wake up and shake off that irrational hatred. Did I get that right?

Northman
10-02-2010, 05:57 PM
You asked the question, then when you didn't like peoples' answers you jumped them for their line of thinking.

Why not let people have a discussion instead of always trying to dictate how it goes.

Thats not entirely accurate Buff.

From Tned's original post he was trying to get people answer how they would accept McDaniels without resorting to the bashing of former players, etc. He wants a discussion just fine but he wants to add an element which we havent seen yet. If you read the original post it wasnt hard to discern what he wanted to discuss.

Northman
10-02-2010, 05:59 PM
I have. In Wade Phillips' second year I would criticize him constantly because he was supposedly a defensive coach, but his defenses seemed helpless.

Frankly, i was never happy with Wade from day 1. I just didnt want him as the HC and was glad he was finally ousted.

Tned
10-02-2010, 06:01 PM
I hear other people say things like that, I just don't see where the optimism comes from. If I felt the way you do I would probably be more in his corner.

Haven't you heard, I'm one of the biggest McDaniels haters/bashers on BF. I even get nice little MHS's reminding me of it.... :DeepSarcasm:

The running game is a concern, but I am not willing to condemn it until the O-line and RBs are healthy. Otherwise, the offense is mostly solid in my mind, with some bone head play calls (which I should say wouldn't have been if they succeeded).

On defense we have a REALLLY good secondary, with some youngsters lining up to take over down the road, and our front seven looks better than most of us thought it would be, and will be even better when Doom is back next year and Ayers is in his third year. Age on the line has me a little worried, but otherwise, I'm feeling pretty good.

spikerman
10-02-2010, 06:01 PM
Frankly, i was never happy with Wade .....

That's exactly how I feel about Joshy. I didn't want him to begin with. I wanted a defensive coach.

Tned
10-02-2010, 06:03 PM
That's exactly how I feel about Joshy. I didn't want him to begin with. I wanted a defensive coach.

I wanted a defensive coach as well, but after he was hired and I started thinking about him and the parallels to when Shanahan came in, I quickly warmed up to the idea. Fact is you need to great DC either way, so the HC really didn't have to be a defensive whiz to get the defense turned around.

Northman
10-02-2010, 06:03 PM
That's exactly how I feel about Joshy. I didn't want him to begin with. I wanted a defensive coach.

I was indifferent and still that way. If he can start winning i will get behind him more. But right now there isnt much different than we've seen before. Stupid penalties, season ending collapses, etc. Until the wins start to come together (if they ever do under his reign) i will continue to challenge and be critical of his tenure.

spikerman
10-02-2010, 06:06 PM
I wanted a defensive coach as well, but after he was hired and I started thinking about him and the parallels to when Shanahan came in, I quickly warmed up to the idea. Fact is you need to great DC either way, so the HC really didn't have to be a defensive whiz to get the defense turned around.

It wasn't so much the coaching, it was matter of "more of the same" with me. I felt that Shanahan neglected the defense for years and I was afraid that it would be more of the same under McDaniels. I still feel like he hasn't focused on the defense as much as he should have. I was simply amazed at the drafting of Moreno at #12 in his first draft. There were so many needs on the defensive side of the ball. I just saw it as cofirming my fears.

Buff
10-02-2010, 06:08 PM
Ok, so since the thread topic was "If you are not sold on McDaniels...", I take it you are saying you view McDaniels through an irrational lens, but if he wins, you will wake up and shake off that irrational hatred. Did I get that right?

I like McD personally...

I just think the answer to your question is self evident. The hatred runs so deep with some people that the only possible thing that would get them to back off are playoff wins. They might do it begrudgingly, but at that point they couldn't really argue with results.

Tned
10-02-2010, 06:11 PM
I like McD personally...

I just think the answer to your question is self evident. The hatred runs so deep with some people that the only possible thing that would get them to back off are playoff wins. They might do it begrudgingly, but at that point they couldn't really argue with results.

So, what you're saying is that since it's self evident, meaning YOU know why people haven't bought into McDaniels, we should use censorship to prevent them from having a place to discuss it. :confused:

TXBRONC
10-02-2010, 06:13 PM
I don't fall into either of those camps. I don't blindly defended and praise everything he does nor do I rip him for every bad decision. There are small amount of people on either extreme but I think most people fit somewhere in the middle.

red98
10-02-2010, 06:24 PM
but you can really see what mcdaniels is building. If he keeps it up the broncos will be on a solid pace to win 4 of their next 13.

ouch!

red98
10-02-2010, 06:27 PM
I like McD personally...

I just think the answer to your question is self evident. The hatred runs so deep with some people that the only possible thing that would get them to back off are playoff wins. They might do it begrudgingly, but at that point they couldn't really argue with results.

Playoff wins make me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.:grouphug:

Ravage!!!
10-02-2010, 06:48 PM
I still feel like he hasn't focused on the defense as much as he should have. I was simply amazed at the drafting of Moreno at #12 in his first draft. There were so many needs on the defensive side of the ball. I just saw it as cofirming my fears.

This one shocked me, as well. I Do wonder if the same drafting would have happened IF (if) the QB controversy didn't happen. I don't know if that had a single thing to do with it, but it MIGHT have made a difference to McD to put some help in the backfield. Maybe not.

But I, too, was hoping we would use those two picks on the DL. Then, but the end of this year and into next, they would really start to be making a difference (if they were good enough to stick around that long).

But, that is also some of my own bias in not believing we need to spend a first round pick on a RB...ESPECIALLY in an offense like this.

red98
10-02-2010, 07:17 PM
This one shocked me, as well. I Do wonder if the same drafting would have happened IF (if) the QB controversy didn't happen. I don't know if that had a single thing to do with it, but it MIGHT have made a difference to McD to put some help in the backfield. Maybe not.

But I, too, was hoping we would use those two picks on the DL. Then, but the end of this year and into next, they would really start to be making a difference (if they were good enough to stick around that long).

But, that is also some of my own bias in not believing we need to spend a first round pick on a RB...ESPECIALLY in an offense like this.

I gave up that dream of using a 1 and 2 on the DL about the same time I gave up that dream of my wife bringing home that cute girl from her work and..

Well anyway it's been a few years and 2 coaches, and the dream seems further away than ever.

Ravage!!!
10-02-2010, 07:38 PM
I gave up that dream of using a 1 and 2 on the DL about the same time I gave up that dream of my wife bringing home that cute girl from her work and..

Well anyway it's been a few years and 2 coaches, and the dream seems further away than ever.

Keep the dream alive!!! I know the FIRST thing you should say to your wife when we DO draft a 1st DL!!

Dreadnought
10-02-2010, 07:49 PM
Umm, duh.

Cutler is THE reason some people soured on McD. That drama put a bad taste in their mouths and they've never been able to get over it.

If it weren't for the Cutler situation, there wouldn't be McDaniels hate.

Incorrect. I can construct an argument that we reamed the Bears on that trade and I'd loathe McDaniels anyways. He not only operates an offensive system that is both boring and ineffective IMO, his personnel and leadership skills are flat out dismal. I have worked for both great and awful bosses in my life, and he represents almost every management and leadershipflaw I think there is.

I hate, and I believe him to be guilty of every one of these errors. While some apply most specifically to NFL coaching, all also apply to leadership and character.

1) He falls in love with his own plans. When they don't work he blames others, not his own plans. A sign of weak character.

2) Coming into a new organization and larding up the roster with flunkies, chair sniffers, and yes-men from his last job. This can be done in extreme moderation, but doing things like getting rid of Mike Leach the way he did sent a message to all the existing guys on the roster that they were goners even if there was no issue with their play. It was ridiculous and an unforced error.

3) Refusal to acknowledge that there is existing talent in the new organization. Helps destroy teamwork, and sends a message its all about him. I believe he is more selfish and less team oriented than the worst Diva WR out there.

4) Ranting and raving in public. A complete pet peeve of mine, and usually a symptom of poor leadership IMO

5) Dressing down and humiliating subordinates in public, and especially in front of their peers. I detest this

6) Stubbornness. A weak and stupid man's imitation of resolve.

7) Ego. arrogance, and enormous self esteem. See also points 1-6 above. he is a cocky SOB, and I dislike cocky SOB's.

8) Dishonesty with subordinates. No, not just the Jay Cutler/Matt Cassell fiasco, though that counts. Lie to the press all you want (as a coach) because they aren't your friends. That said, don't wage wars in the media with your own subordinates, e.g. Marshall and Scheffler in the week 17 benching incident last year - and in any event his explanation of what happened in that doesn't pass the laugh test. If you lie to your subordinates, in any field, you can't lead them


If he won a Superbowl I would concede he was a better coach than I thought. I would be elated for the Broncos - and I still wouldn't miss him if he announced in the post game interview that he was going to resign and move to Borneo to open an orphanage.

I rate his liklihood of winning a Superbowl as about zero however.

Medford Bronco
10-02-2010, 08:09 PM
I question the talent on D. I think it is quite poor IMO.

I also question a running game that has gone from top 5 to bottom 5 in less than 3 years.

I root for Denver but feel we are not that good. Also Orton is not the problem.

Maybe instead of Tebow, draft to fill some of the other huge holes on this team. (RB, DL and LB)

Just a choockes take. :salute:

Nomad
10-02-2010, 08:19 PM
Ok, i'm curious. At the risk of starting a thread that will spiral out of control, I think it's a topic worth discussing

While this doesn't apply to everyone, a great many people now fall into one of the following two categories:


Defend McDaniels unconditionally, which typically also includes bashing Shanahan and former players.
Criticize McDaniels and every decision he makes, while never, or rarely, giving him credit for the good decisions.


There is no point in asking what it will take to get those bashing former players/coaches to stop, because clearly those ex-players/coaches are not going to do anything to change their minds, and those attacking them simply as a means of defending McDaniels and current players (a lot of the bashing), won't stop until they feel the McDaniels criticism has stopped. Those bashing them based on 'emotion', typically feel betrayed in some manner, and nothing those players/coaches do will change that. So, there is really no point in trying to understand/discuss group one, in my opinion.

That leaves us with those that simply don't like McDaniels and criticize him at every turn, rarely, if ever, giving him credit for the good things he's done.

So, my questions are:

Why do you feel this way?
and
What do you need to see McDaniels do before you will be sold on him as a good head coach and want to see him as the Denver head coach for years to come?

Let's discuss it.

To see him and clay embrace!!:D:lol: Then I'll know he is the real deal!!

Buff
10-02-2010, 08:25 PM
To see him and clay embrace!!:D:lol: Then I'll know he is the real deal!!

Oh Clay jumped on the bandwagon for a week last year after we beat the Chargers... Then he jumped back off when things went bad.

Which, IMO, proves that winning can heal everything.

Buff
10-02-2010, 08:34 PM
Incorrect. I can construct an argument that we reamed the Bears on that trade and I'd loathe McDaniels anyways. He not only operates an offensive system that is both boring and ineffective IMO, his personnel and leadership skills are flat out dismal. I have worked for both great and awful bosses in my life, and he represents almost every management and leadershipflaw I think there is.

I hate, and I believe him to be guilty of every one of these errors. While some apply most specifically to NFL coaching, all also apply to leadership and character.

1) He falls in love with his own plans. When they don't work he blames others, not his own plans. A sign of weak character.

2) Coming into a new organization and larding up the roster with flunkies, chair sniffers, and yes-men from his last job. This can be done in extreme moderation, but doing things like getting rid of Mike Leach the way he did sent a message to all the existing guys on the roster that they were goners even if there was no issue with their play. It was ridiculous and an unforced error.

3) Refusal to acknowledge that there is existing talent in the new organization. Helps destroy teamwork, and sends a message its all about him. I believe he is more selfish and less team oriented than the worst Diva WR out there.

4) Ranting and raving in public. A complete pet peeve of mine, and usually a symptom of poor leadership IMO

5) Dressing down and humiliating subordinates in public, and especially in front of their peers. I detest this

6) Stubbornness. A weak and stupid man's imitation of resolve.

7) Ego. arrogance, and enormous self esteem. See also points 1-6 above. he is a cocky SOB, and I dislike cocky SOB's.

8) Dishonesty with subordinates. No, not just the Jay Cutler/Matt Cassell fiasco, though that counts. Lie to the press all you want (as a coach) because they aren't your friends. That said, don't wage wars in the media with your own subordinates, e.g. Marshall and Scheffler in the week 17 benching incident last year - and in any event his explanation of what happened in that doesn't pass the laugh test. If you lie to your subordinates, in any field, you can't lead them


If he won a Superbowl I would concede he was a better coach than I thought. I would be elated for the Broncos - and I still wouldn't miss him if he announced in the post game interview that he was going to resign and move to Borneo to open an orphanage.

I rate his liklihood of winning a Superbowl as about zero however.

Yes, you can construct an argument that takes Cutler out of the equation, but I would argue that, hypothetically, you wouldn't feel so inclined to construct the argument in the absence of McCutlergate. That was the first impression he made on people and because of it he lost the benefit of the doubt - which subsequently magnifies each questionable decision thereafter.

Ravage!!!
10-02-2010, 08:35 PM
Yes, you can construct an argument that takes Cutler out of the equation, but I would argue that, hypothetically, you wouldn't feel so inclined to construct the argument in the absence of McCutlergate. That was the first impression he made on people and because of it he lost the benefit of the doubt - which subsequently magnifies each questionable decision thereafter.

Magnifies, but also shows a pattern. One that could then be extended to Nolan.

Dreadnought
10-02-2010, 08:39 PM
Yes, you can construct an argument that takes Cutler out of the equation, but I would argue that, hypothetically, you wouldn't feel so inclined to construct the argument in the absence of McCutlergate. That was the first impression he made on people and because of it he lost the benefit of the doubt - which subsequently magnifies each questionable decision thereafter.

When I listen to anyone tell me that playing Lamont Jordan "gives us the best chance to win" - in any context...he is then self convicted of Ass-hattery. Even his lies aren't creative at that point :lol:

Buff
10-02-2010, 08:41 PM
When I listen to anyone tell me that playing Lamont Jordan "gives us the best chance to win" - in any context...he is then self convicted of Ass-hattery. Even his lies aren't creative at that point :lol:

Damn, I was hoping you wouldn't play the Lamont Jordan card. ;)

Ravage!!!
10-02-2010, 08:48 PM
Damn, I was hoping you wouldn't play the Lamont Jordan card. ;)

:lol: :lol:

I Eat Staples
10-02-2010, 08:53 PM
I don't like McD because he has a huge ego and puts it above the team, and his talent scouting completely sucks. I've been against him ever since he tried to trade Cutler for Cassell. I'm completely over Cutler, but Cassell is one of the worst starting QBs in the NFL. That trade was foreshadowing that he doesn't have a clue what talent is.

I also hate how he puts character above talent. This is the NFL, not pop warner. This league is for the best of the best. Being a nice guy doesn't help you make plays. You need superior talent to win in the NFL, and McD just hasn't done anything to bring it in -- in fact, he's traded it away.

McD has shown he has no clue how the NFL draft works. Trading a 2nd for a 1st. Moving up to get Quinn. Drafting Tebow in the 1st. Yeah he got Cox in the 5th round and he's looking good, but that doesn't make up for the wasted picks he's had. No coach was down on Moreno so I can't blame him too much for that, but Moreno isn't that good. Sorry, he's just not. Ayers may very well develop into a nice LB. I've always said the transition from college DE to NFL OLB takes a year or more. A HB should produce immediately.

I like his spread offense. I dislike his play calling. It's pretty clear that this spread offense helps Orton's reads, creates mismatches, and usually allows for a receiver to get open in the 10-20 yard range. We move the ball downfield nearly effortlessly. We completely suck in the redzone, mainly due to play calling IMO. Also, lack of a running game doesn't help our efforts.

I don't mind McD's passion. He can be a bit over the top, but that's okay too. Nothing wrong with a coach that has a passion for winning -- in fact, if a coach lacks this, they shouldn't be coaching in the first place. But he has to control that passion. Throughout the season there will be ups and downs. Coach the players firmly, but making one mistake or being out of position one time shouldn't be enough to completely give up on a player who may have some potential. He needs to learn how to get along with players and coaches for the benefit of the team.

As for what it would take for me to like him. Making the playoffs and then advancing in it. Right now, I think he's a terrible coach and will not make this team successful. All I want is for the Broncos to win games. If McD can convince me that he has a better chance than any other coach at doing that, I'll like and support him. Right now I don't see us being successful under him. For me to like him, he has to change my opinion. That can be done by taking us into the playoffs. I understand it's rare to take over a team and win a superbowl. But he's made bold moves and needs results now. I'll start with 9-7 and a playoff appearance, followed by a playoff win or 2 the following year. Keep improving at this pace and eventually reach every team's ultimate goal -- a superbowl. No point in playing if you're not playing to win the big one. If McD can't win it for us, we need someone who can. Either way, we need results. All I'm asking is for McD to show us something to make us believe he has this team heading in the right direction.

honz
10-02-2010, 08:59 PM
I'd just like to clarify that........................Hillis sucks.

honz
10-02-2010, 09:00 PM
Lamont Jordan is underrated as a Bronco.

atwater27
10-02-2010, 09:06 PM
says the man with the self congratulatory sig...

jhildebrand
10-02-2010, 09:11 PM
I am often critical of McDaniels. However, it is important to note two things:

1. I was critical of him even at 6-0 last season
2. I am not always critical of the guy and give him praise when, IMO or perception it is warranted.

To answer the OP, I keep an open mind on McDaniels each week. Unlike others, wins aren't enough for me (see #1 above).

I like McDaniels the coach a lot. I think he has a lot of talent and a lot of upside. My problem lies with McDaniels the GM/talent evaluator/team builder.

More specifically my problems lie in how he handles situations. I could not care less that he traded Cutler, Marshall, or Scheffler. However, the way he handled the situation was less than ideal! Many are willing to chalk that up to being a rookie mistake. Fine. But the same issues presented themselves again with the Scheffler and Marshall sagas.

The issues became evident again with Nolan. How he found it fit to tinker with the ONE side of the ball that was doing their job and improving!

I have an issue with a coach who, warranted or not, has the image of being a massive liar and ego (see telling a reporter how ridiculous their "theory" is after spending all offseason talking about how Tebow will be used!). Tinkering with the D after boasting how much better you will make that 08 offense and failing miserably to do that just doesn't sit well.

So where does that leave me? :confused: I would be more willing to embrace McDaniels if he would show the ability to practice what he himself preaches, shows more humility across the board, and either prove your worth with the GM powers (draft picks start paying off, see progress on both sides of the ball, stick to your plans ZBS to PBS etc...) or relinquish them.

jhildebrand
10-02-2010, 09:13 PM
I don't like McD because he has a huge ego and puts it above the team, and his talent scouting completely sucks.

Trading a 2nd for a 1st. Moving up to get Quinn.

Said much more succinctly and on point than my rambling post. Too bad I was distracted while making my post and didn't see this because it is my main issue with the guy.

Shazam!
10-02-2010, 09:16 PM
I will support Josh McDaniels until I see no improvement, or them going backwards. Personally I'll probably run out of patience if he doesnt deliver a winning season or postseason by January 2012.

Even though they're 1-2 and possibly 1-3, there is improvement from last year.

The 6-0 start last season was unfortunately, an anomaly.

KO is a totally different player than what we've seen last year. McD has proved his work with QBs. So that's improvement in my book.

The OLine is IMO what is affecting the running game most and obviously it is suffering. It can get better this year with Harris coming back and the rooks getting time.

The D is missing one of it's most important pieces in Doom, but they can improve too.

Ive read here people criticizing his ego and drafting- Shanahan had an incredibly huge ego and was like Caesar in Denver, he ruled with an iron fist. He had a few gems in drafts, the busts he brought in over a decade is staggering, and nauseating to fans. Not to mention the FA acquisitions that turned out to be terrible.

I think he brought in good players this Draft. I'll largely give him a pass on his first season here because he had short time and it was year one.

He didnt dismantle the 98 Broncos when he came in here. This team was a mess.

I like his offense, his holding the players accountable and teamwork first attitude, and the fire he puts on the sidelines.

I am optimistic that if they're together and healthy for 2011, this team can be big time next season.

OrangeHoof
10-02-2010, 09:21 PM
Can anyone name a McDaniels draftee that has

a) stayed healthy and

b) played well above his place in the draft?

I Eat Staples
10-02-2010, 09:32 PM
I like McDaniels the coach a lot. I think he has a lot of talent and a lot of upside. My problem lies with McDaniels the GM/talent evaluator/team builder.

Agreed 100%. I don't like that he has complete control over this organization. I think he'd be a much better OC.


More specifically my problems lie in how he handles situations. I could not care less that he traded Cutler, Marshall, or Scheffler. However, the way he handled the situation was less than ideal!

Again I agree 100%. The Scheffler situation was a travesty. He traded a good player because he was quoted as saying he can't wait for the season to be over. He was frustrated about his play and the team's losing, why was that such a big deal? Cole Hamels said the same thing while the Phillies were playing in the world series. Hamels is still pitching for the Phillies and is having a ton of success.

As for the Cutler situation, both McD and Cutler acted like spoiled children. For people who say they don't want a person like Cutler leading the team as a QB, how can you want a coach who is the same way?

honz
10-02-2010, 09:37 PM
When has McD done anything wrong?

jhildebrand
10-02-2010, 09:44 PM
I will support Josh McDaniels until I see no improvement, or them going backwards Personally I'll probably run out of patience if he doesnt deliver a winning season or postseason by January 2012.

Even though they're 1-2 and possibly 1-3, there is improvement from last year.

The 6-0 start last season was unfortunaely, an anomaly.

KO is a totally different player than what we've seen last year. McD has proved his working with QBs. So that's improvement in my book.

The OLine is IMO what is affecting the running game most and obviously it is suffering. It can get better this year with Harris coming back and the rooks getting time.

The D is missing one of it's most important pieces in Doom, but they can improve too.

Ive read here people criticizing his ego and drafting- Shanahan had an incredibly huge ego and was like Caesar in Denver, he ruled with an iron fist. He had a few gems in a drafts, the busts he brought in over a decade is staggering, and nauseating to fans. Not to mention the FA acquisitions tha tturned otu to be terrible.

I think he brought in good players this Draft. I'll largely give him a past on his first season here because he had short time and it was year one.

He didnt dismantle the 98 Broncos when he came in here. This team was a mess.

I like his offense, his holding the players accountable and teamwork first attitude, and the fire he puts on the sidelines.

I am optimistic that if they're together and healthy for 2011, this team can be big time next season.

I totally can respect a post such as this one. Although minor, I would only counter the following:


The OLine is IMO what is affecting the running game most and obviously it is suffering. It can get better this year with Harris coming back and the rooks getting time.

My fear is McDaniels doesn't have the wherewithall to stick to his vision of going to the PBS as evidenced by the report that the entire Colts game was ZBS.



Ive read here people criticizing his ego and drafting- Shanahan had an incredibly huge ego and was like Caesar in Denver, he ruled with an iron fist.

I cant speak for other but I criticised Shanahan the same for the same. Just because Shanahan did it doesn't make it acceptable for McD to do it.

I would be ok with some losing if it meant true rebuilding-drafting as many guys as possible and playing as much youth as possible i.e. KC.

It is hard to buy the rebuilding theory that gets pushed around with 9 of 11 on D 30+ in age.

Buff
10-02-2010, 10:00 PM
Can anyone name a McDaniels draftee that has

a) stayed healthy and

b) played well above his place in the draft?

Perrish Cox.

jhildebrand
10-02-2010, 10:04 PM
Perrish Cox.

JD Walton is looking good to, IMO.

honz
10-02-2010, 10:35 PM
Yeah, Cox did a real good job muffing a punt and getting burned by Blair White.

BeefStew25
10-02-2010, 10:57 PM
Yeah, Cox did a real good job muffing a punt and getting burned by Blair White.

Exactly. Let's not crown his ass quite yet.

red98
10-02-2010, 11:04 PM
Exactly. Let's not crown his ass quite yet.

He is who we thought he was!





(just not yet)

DenBronx
10-02-2010, 11:06 PM
Ok, i'm curious.

While this doesn't apply to everyone, a great many people now fall into one of the following two categories:


Defend McDaniels unconditionally, which typically also includes bashing Shanahan and former players.
Criticize McDaniels and every decision he makes, while never, or rarely, giving him credit for the good decisions.



#3. Defend Shanahan while typically defending former players. Give McDaniels credit for the good decisions while heavily critizing his poor ones.


Alot of you have already been spot on about McDaniels and his GM duties, ego, ect. Dread was spot on as well as many others.


Josh has some big boots to fill but he has done alot of damage along the way. But.....winning cures everything.

pnbronco
10-03-2010, 01:16 AM
Because I'm an online, nazi, control freak that likes to censor people. Ok, happy? I'm out of the closet. We cool now. :IliveToCensor:

I was not going to post in this thread, esp since I like Coach, but I'm really lucky I've talked to the man about 1/2 dozen times. When ever I've talked to Coach I just walk away with a great big smile on my face and thinking there isn't a mountain I can't climb.

However you give new meaning the term boggie man Tned. All I can see is the closet door open and you standing there with a Nazi uni on shaking that staff, whip like thing shaking it saying.....:focus:

For it to be calmer in Bronco Country I would like to see greater production in the Red Zone. The D line to get stronger and put more pressure on the QB while stopping the run. Winning the games we are suppose to win.

jhildebrand
10-03-2010, 01:38 AM
At the end of the day, it is sad to say, but Josh McDaniels will be a better coach because of his time with the Broncos. Unfortunately, we are his proving ground or training wheels.

I just don't see him getting the time here it will take or learning the lessons it will take. Give me Brian Schottenheimer and a Marty in a consultant/GM role and I will be happy.

jhildebrand
10-03-2010, 01:41 AM
Yeah, Cox did a real good job muffing a punt and getting burned by Blair White.

And Moreno is a fumble factory, injury prone RB. Let's give Cox time to cut his teeth. He will make Bailey worth something in a trade. God rest his soul, but Cox has more talent in his pinky toe than Darrent and it wont be long before it shows.

Bosco
10-03-2010, 03:56 AM
I like McD personally...

I just think the answer to your question is self evident. The hatred runs so deep with some people that the only possible thing that would get them to back off are playoff wins. They might do it begrudgingly, but at that point they couldn't really argue with results.

I don't even think that will do it.

It become pretty clear to me that there are some Bronco fans (not just here) who simply don't like Josh McDaniels because he isn't Mike Shanahan. Our fanbase has been extremely spoiled with nearly unheard of continuity under Shanahan and some began to equate him and his offensive philosophies as the identity of the Denver Broncos, and when that got taken away a surprising number of them simply threw a big temper tantrum and most of it was directed at the new guy, who they regarded as some kind of invader looking to destroy everything they hold dear. Those types simply can't (or won't) come to accept the fact that the Denver Broncos are no longer a run first, zone blocking team running the West Coast offense and looking to find the next Shannon Sharpe to be their 50+ catch a year tight end.

That is one reason why we've heard so many absolutely asinine conspiracy theories about some of the moves Josh has made and why some people have gone as far as to openly wish for McDaniels to be fired and replaced by Kyle Shanahan.

It's funny though. Not only has Josh McDaniels given the Broncos they major shake up they needed, but that has also extended to the fanbase as well. I'm sure that in time we'll have some of those people come around to the fact that things are changing in Denver, but I'm sure we'll always have a few hold overs.

Elevation inc
10-03-2010, 05:51 AM
wow is all i have to say to this thread...just wow......

elsid13
10-03-2010, 06:35 AM
At the end of the day, it is sad to say, but Josh McDaniels will be a better coach because of his time with the Broncos. Unfortunately, we are his proving ground or training wheels.

I just don't see him getting the time here it will take or learning the lessons it will take. Give me Brian Schottenheimer and a Marty in a consultant/GM role and I will be happy.

The odds are in that favor. Most first time Head Coaches are so overwhelmed with the off the field responsibilities that they struggle with producing a winning team. The good ones rebound and do a far better job in their second go around.

Dean
10-03-2010, 07:39 AM
It's all about winning. What is enough wins continually changes based upon your recent past. An example would be during the early 2000s when the Broncos were going 10-6 and making the play-offs. Many people on Broncomania were bummed and felt that Shanahan should be fired for multiple years of losing in the first play-off round.

Now, the expectation seems to be to make the play-offs. McD will be judged upon whether he reaches that mark and his popularity and job retention for the vast majority will depend upon his team (they are his team now) reaching that mark.

As a 35+ year coach nothing is more evident than any other single fact. Yes, each year you will pick up a few more detractors but if you win you stay and if you do win other blemishes are over looked. IMO it will be no different here and now.

atwater27
10-03-2010, 07:52 AM
I don't even think that will do it.

It become pretty clear to me that there are some Bronco fans (not just here) who simply don't like Josh McDaniels because he isn't Mike Shanahan.which is wrong Our fanbase has been extremely spoiled with nearly unheard of continuity under Shanahan and some began to equate him and his offensive philosophies as the identity of the Denver Broncos, Ok, I am buying thisand when that got taken away a surprising number of them simply threw a big temper tantrum and most of it was directed at the new guy, who they regarded as some kind of invader looking to destroy everything they hold dear. OK, you lost me again. what is with the extremes here? invader? Destroy? Tantrum? Drama Queen much?Those types simply can't (or won't) come to accept the fact that the Denver Broncos are no longer a run first, zone blocking team running the West Coast offense and looking to find the next Shannon Sharpe to be their 50+ catch a year tight end. Are you going to get to some sort of coherent point soon?

That is one reason why we've heard so many absolutely asinine conspiracy theories about some of the moves Josh has made and why some people have gone as far as to openly wish for McDaniels to be fired and replaced by Kyle Shanahan. Assinine is as assinine does.

It's funny though. Not only has Josh McDaniels given the Broncos they major shake up they needed,You got the shaking up part right... but that has also extended to the fanbase as well. What, with tebow? Congratulations Josh, you got a million more religious fans with that move. I'm sure that in time we'll have some of those people come around to the fact that things are changing in Denver, but I'm sure we'll always have a few hold overs.Changing? Like good change or hope and change? Let me know when you figure it out.

TXBRONC
10-03-2010, 08:22 AM
When has McD done anything wrong?

Honz it's been made perfectly clear where people think McDaniels has made mistakes.

broncophan
10-03-2010, 08:29 AM
[QUOTE=Softskull;1079919]My first criteria: Coach McDaniels doesn't seem like the type of guy that I'd want to sit down and have a beer with.

exactly how I feel about a certain qb that McD let go....

too early to be too critical of McD....I say we keep letting him build his team....hopefully they keep getting better....we have improved each week this season....but these next 2 road games are going to be tough.
We certainly don't want to be in a position where we change head coaches every 2 or 3 years....that usually doesn't work too well.

TXBRONC
10-03-2010, 08:39 AM
[QUOTE=Softskull;1079919]My first criteria: Coach McDaniels doesn't seem like the type of guy that I'd want to sit down and have a beer with.

exactly how I feel about a certain qb that McD let go....

too early to be too critical of McD....I say we keep letting him build his team....hopefully they keep getting better....we have improved each week this season....but these next 2 road games are going to be tough.
We certainly don't want to be in a position where we change head coaches every 2 or 3 years....that usually doesn't work too well.

I disagree with you Phan. I don't think we have improved each week. Imo we have problems that go back to last season.

broncophan
10-03-2010, 08:48 AM
Really??.....I am just talking about this season....I think we have played better against each opponent we have played...don't get me wrong.....I know we have alot of issues though.......

I won't count last year against McD....at least not too much.....I would think that was a good learning experience for him....and as I have said....by the end of this season...we will know more about McD and the broncos....and where, if anywher, this team is going.

GO BRONCOS!!

GEM
10-03-2010, 09:12 AM
It doesn't make a bit of difference what McDaniels does, good or bad. He's the devil and that won't change. :lol:P

TXBRONC
10-03-2010, 09:12 AM
Really??.....I am just talking about this season....I think we have played better against each opponent we have played...don't get me wrong.....I know we have alot of issues though.......

I won't count last year against McD....at least not too much.....I would think that was a good learning experience for him....and as I have said....by the end of this season...we will know more about McD and the broncos....and where, if anywher, this team is going.

GO BRONCOS!!

Yes I understood what you meant and I'm saying that are problems that have carried over from last season. I guess what I'm saying is that the issues that have carried over from last season are holding us back this season.

Lonestar
10-03-2010, 09:35 AM
Yea, but they didn't bring Cutler up. As usual, he was brought up to defend McDaniels, or just to bash Cutler/Shanny, or whatever.

Maybe if people stop assuming that every criticism of McDaniels some how relates to Cutler, better discussions will ensue.

You certainly can't be niave enuff not to realize that 95% of the critics. Are because one one or more of the following.
Suceeded mike.
Came from NE.
Or
Traded jay.
Traded bm.
Traded ts.
Traded hillis.

All of which were sent to teams of their childhood dreams.
Scrapped ZBS.
Signed Paxton.

Fired a scouting group.
Or

Can't get over just how destute the TEAM was in talent past afore mentioned players (champ, dj and clady not included).

Other than that with the above mention issuse those that hav e their panties in a bunch have piled on to a few other issuses. That are being worked on.

IMHO most of those that are listed above will never get over having there bois shipped out of DEN and will forever whine about something.

Now maybe I can see if there are any legit compliants.

Posting From ATL.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

Tned
10-03-2010, 09:36 AM
The odds are in that favor. Most first time Head Coaches are so overwhelmed with the off the field responsibilities that they struggle with producing a winning team. The good ones rebound and do a far better job in their second go around.

Yea, I've said all along that if you look at the history of the NFL (especially recent history), more than likely he will be with Denver 2-3 years and then fired. If that happens, it won't necessarily mean he will never be a great head coach, just that it's the pattern we see most in the NFL.

I have also said that I hope in 14 years we are talking about how McDaniels has been the HC of the Broncos as long as Shanahan was.

elsid13
10-03-2010, 09:46 AM
Yea, I've said all along that if you look at the history of the NFL (especially recent history), more than likely he will be with Denver 2-3 years and then fired. If that happens, it won't necessarily mean he will never be a great head coach, just that it's the pattern we see most in the NFL.

I have also said that I hope in 14 years we are talking about how McDaniels has been the HC of the Broncos as long as Shanahan was.

There was real good piece in ESPN MAG about Mangini and how he struggled with all the additional responsibilities that he didn't realize head coach had. He got the X/O's part but all the day to day decisions he had to make were surprise. So because he was overwhelmed he just followed Belicheck coaching style, processes and training schedules to a T (.i.e took off the Patriot's letter head om memos and put on NY Jets and Browns in it place). I wouldn't be surprised that McDaniels isn't doing the same thing. It almost better to find a OC/DC that failed the first time as HC and is now tearing it up as coordinator then hiring a first time head coach.

EastCoastBronco
10-03-2010, 09:47 AM
I like McDaniels.
He seems like a nice enough guy.
Until he gets us a punishing, durable RB, I'll never forgive him for getting rid of Hillis.
Even if he does, I'll never forgive him for getting rid of Hillis.

Tned
10-03-2010, 09:48 AM
You certainly can't be niave enuff not to realize that 95% of the critics. Are because one one or more of the following.
Suceeded mike.
Came from NE.
Or
Traded jay.
Traded bm.
Traded ts.
Traded hillis.

All of which were sent to teams of their childhood dreams.
Scrapped ZBS.
Signed Paxton.

Fired a scouting group.
Or

Can't get over just how destute the TEAM was in talent past afore mentioned players (champ, dj and clady not included).

Other than that with the above mention issuse those that hav e their panties in a bunch have piled on to a few other issuses. That are being worked on.

IMHO most of those that are listed above will never get over having there bois shipped out of DEN and will forever whine about something.

Now maybe I can see if there are any legit compliants.

Posting From ATL.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

Ok, apparently this morning you are on a "make Tned the topic of threads" kick. Now that you have gotten the discussion of my naivete out of your system, maybe you can answer the question: If YOU'RE not sold on McDaniels, what will it take?

If you want to create a thread where you try and prove that every criticism of McDaniels is based on those player moves, or even discuss how guys like you bash former players and coaches because guys like Jake were benched, any chance you can create your own thread there and spew your negativity in that one, rather than derail this one?

To those of you that have felt it necessary to lash out at the "McD haters" or bash former players to "defend McD" in this thread, you just don't really get it, do you?

I was attempting to get the so called McD haters to have a dialogue, removing emotion (which you ******s are intent on bringing back in with your off topic posting/bashing), to put them on the spot of putting in a post, "what it will take".

Doing that will either show that it has NOTHING to do with performance and what he does with the team. OR, will force them to say, "if he does _____, I'm on board", which make it hard to keep criticizing if he does _____. Or, makes it clear that the expectations are ridiculous, which they will probably even say as they type it, like "if he doesn't win a SB this year, I will never support him."

However, once again, the same small group of people decide to try and derail a thread by bashing other posters, former players or coaches, because this thread wasn't a kumbaya, coach McDaniels is great, hug fest.

Is it REALLY that hard to grasp the concept of discussing a topic, and not feeling it necessary to lash out at "something" when people post things you don't agree with (as I am doing over the ass hat behavior of the off-topic posters in this thread).

/rant Go Broncos

GEM
10-03-2010, 09:53 AM
Unfortunately, no one will remove emotion on either side. It's a love or hate relationship with McDaniels and it won't matter what he does, there will always be a reason to absolutely hate the guy or stand behind him no matter what. Win or loss, Super Bowl or not, there will always be reasons to hate the man, because he didn't do it how fans wanted him to do it. End of the season on game 16 on a down note, and there will always be fans that will say, better luck next year, he's making the strides necessary during a rebuild.

No matter what, there will always be the extreme fans.

Tned
10-03-2010, 10:00 AM
Unfortunately, no one will remove emotion on either side. It's a love or hate relationship with McDaniels and it won't matter what he does, there will always be a reason to absolutely hate the guy or stand behind him no matter what.

Obviously, as fans, emotion is a big part of why we are fans, especially those of us on fan forums and such.

However, I don't believe that every person that ever criticizes McDaniels is purely an emotionally-based (and irrational) McDaniels hater. Instead, I believe that with a few exceptions, most criticism posted is based on frustration about Broncos performance (which unfortunately for McDaniels is a run that precedes him --- see North's posts in this thread, and I'm sure he isn't alone).

So, I am trying to get a "what will it take to get on the McDaniels band wagon" discussion going, so that some of the emotion on both sides (defend at all costs and bash at all costs) can be set aside, while the base issue is discussed.

BroncoNut
10-03-2010, 10:03 AM
I dont' know GEM, I'm still pretty indifferent about him. I sense some personality issues with him, and question some of the decisions or things that have happened since he's taken the position, particularly with shuttling people outta here. He's made both stupid and smart draft moves imo. He still needs some time, I don't know yet if we've seen the true results of his moves.

BroncoJoe
10-03-2010, 10:06 AM
I'm already on his side, so I have nothing more to say.

Ravage!!!
10-03-2010, 10:36 AM
You certainly can't be niave enuff not to realize that 95% of the critics. Are because one one or more of the following.
Suceeded mike.

This is just more excuse making. YOU can't seem to get that people are able to judge McD based on his OWN attitude, personality, moves, non-moves, trades, drafts and play calling on their OWN merit. Doesn't need to be "compared" to former coaches/regimes.

I was a big Shanahan guy, but I was excited for the changes (as posted on another message board on the VERY day the announced firing happened, since I was specifically called out in a thread title. So it can be found).



*Traded Jay.
*Traded BM.
*Traded TS.
*Traded Hillis.

*Signed Paxton.

*Fired a scouting group.

*You forgot using a first round pick on a RB.
*Moved up into the second round by using the 14th over all pick to take a CB that was then traded the following year for a TE that isn't as good as the one we just traded away.
*Moved up in the draft to take a blocking TE that can't even get into the lineup.
*Used four picks on a "project" QB.
*Let go of the best coach this team had, in Nolan

You can't seem to grasp the fact that ANY coach that makes these kind of drastic moves, is going to get MAJOR criticisms. Lets be honest, no matter what side of the fence you are on, you HAVE to acknowledge that these move DESERVE criticisms until he can actually prove that this team is moving FORWARD because of them! Can you imagine what the crowds would be like if this was Philly? You think the Denver fanbase is tough.

Don't give me this ABSOLUTE JUNK that McD was getting rid of the "headcases" and IMPROVED this team by removing all the best talent. Thats junk. Thats complete BS that has absolutely no backing. Its speculation (at best) that is used PURELY to justify such incredible moves solely for the sake of TRYING to come up with a reason that a coach would completely dismantle a young offense that was filled with GOOD talent (BTW, trying to make it sound that McD traded them to their "favorite" teams, is truly a pathetic sounding PLEA to defend the action).

As of right now, these moves haven't proved to be right. I'm not talking about the "TIME it needs." Because the only thing we did, was INCREASE the amount of time it will take to rebuild. But considering the moves, its proved that we are lacking in RBs, TEs, and playmaking WRs (I won't even mention the QB situation since that position is just completely out of whack after the draft).

Dread said it straight up on a lot of good points about his personality alone, and these are points that don't even go into the depths of his personnel moves. You should read his post. DOesn't exactly sound like someone thats judging him on other coaches.

Also, No matter where you work. If you are replacing someone, you are going to be compared to that person. That just makes sense. Thats just natural and expected. ANY coach is compared to the previous coach.... duh.


Can't get over just how destute the TEAM was in talent past afore mentioned players (champ, dj and clady not included).
Incorrect. The team is NOW void of talent after having one of the youngest and up-n-coming talent in the NFL. Other than Clady, this team doesn't have a single, young, star on it. Outside of Clady and Champ, it doesn't have any.


Other than that with the above mention issuse those that hav e their panties in a bunch have piled on to a few other issuses. That are being worked on.

IMHO most of those that are listed above will never get over having there bois shipped out of DEN and will forever whine about something.

Now maybe I can see if there are any legit compliants.

This coming from the person that never...EVER.... lets a thread go without bringing up the former coaches or players. When they were here, NEVER... EVER... let a thread go without whining about the "DAFT" (Which, btw, needs to be brought out of retirement considering the drafts the last two years).

But look at that list and realize that is normally a list you would see from a coach that has been at one job for 10 years. Thats just 2 offseasons!! Not to mention all the other "other issues" they have with McD. So yeah, I say there are some fans that have a lot of legitimate gripes.

GEM
10-03-2010, 10:41 AM
Obviously, as fans, emotion is a big part of why we are fans, especially those of us on fan forums and such.

However, I don't believe that every person that ever criticizes McDaniels is purely an emotionally-based (and irrational) McDaniels hater. Instead, I believe that with a few exceptions, most criticism posted is based on frustration about Broncos performance (which unfortunately for McDaniels is a run that precedes him --- see North's posts in this thread, and I'm sure he isn't alone).

So, I am trying to get a "what will it take to get on the McDaniels band wagon" discussion going, so that some of the emotion on both sides (defend at all costs and bash at all costs) can be set aside, while the base issue is discussed.


You can change most of that to pro-McDaniels and have the very same post. :shrugs:


However, I don't believe that every person that ever praises McDaniels is purely an emotionally-based (and irrational) McDaniels lover. Instead, I believe that with a few exceptions, most praise posted is based on the improvements in the Broncos performance.

He's done good things, he's done bad things, but then again so has EVERY coach in NFL history.

Ravage!!!
10-03-2010, 10:42 AM
wow.. my post is just wayyyyyyy too long. Thats absurd. Sorry everyone. Thats what I get for typing while watching pre-game stuff.

GEM
10-03-2010, 10:50 AM
And yet, this team with no talent has an offense putting up higher numbers than that talent ridden team of yesteryear. :shrugs:

elsid13
10-03-2010, 10:50 AM
wow.. my post is just wayyyyyyy too long. Thats absurd. Sorry everyone. Thats what I get for typing while watching pre-game stuff.

It wouldn't have been so bad, if you had added a paragraph on the lack of bubble screens to WR for Clay. :D

Tned
10-03-2010, 10:51 AM
You can change most of that to pro-McDaniels and have the very same post. :shrugs:


However, I don't believe that every person that ever praises McDaniels is purely an emotionally-based (and irrational) McDaniels lover. Instead, I believe that with a few exceptions, most praise posted is based on the improvements in the Broncos performance.

He's done good things, he's done bad things, but then again so has EVERY coach in NFL history.

Agreed. I have certainly never said, nor do I believe, that every pro-McDaniels person does so based on emotions only. The lashing out at former players/coaches in order to defend McDaniels is often an emotional reaction, but that's not why they support McD (except for the handful that support him only because of ABM {anything but Mike}).

The reason I didn't start a thread titled "If you support McDaniels, what will it take you to stop doing so" is because I don't think there is much belief that McDaniels supporters are doing it out of some irrational love, like there is a belief that his detractors are doing it out of some irrational hate.

Ravage!!!
10-03-2010, 10:56 AM
And yet, this team with no talent has an offense putting up higher numbers than that talent ridden team of yesteryear. :shrugs:

But not scoring. I can't be convinced that the team would not only be putting up the same numbers, but SCORING more if we had the play makers still on the team. We don't ahve WRs taking it to the house, nor are any of them a threat in the red-zone. Neither is our pass-catching TE... nor are any of our RBs.

Higher numbers? :whoknows: Not really sure thats true.

GEM
10-03-2010, 11:04 AM
But not scoring. I can't be convinced that the team would not only be putting up the same numbers, but SCORING more if we had the play makers still on the team. We don't ahve WRs taking it to the house, nor are any of them a threat in the red-zone. Neither is our pass-catching TE... nor are any of our RBs.

Higher numbers? :whoknows: Not really sure thats true.

And this is all new? Really?

Marshall didn't take it to the house. ;) He was known as a monster of YAC, not being a burner. We weren't scoring previously either.

Our previous RB's were hitting the red zone? We've been known as a team having issues in the red zone more than this season and the previous season.

Take a look at some stats. It's not hard to find. :shrugs:

I agree with everyone on the Hillis issue. I do agree that McDaniels didn't want him taking the place of his 1st ever 1st round pick. But what's done is done. Find someone who can run the freaking ball. This is the only way of being a rational fan...you have to be able to admit the opposite of your personal feelings. I like McDaniels, I know he has made mistakes, and I am fully ok with admitting he has made mistakes. At the same time, I see that he has done a lot of positive. I think over time, it will pay off.

I just hate looking at the past consistently over and over as if that is going to fix the future.

jhildebrand
10-03-2010, 11:16 AM
And yet, this team with no talent has an offense putting up higher numbers than that talent ridden team of yesteryear. :shrugs:

I don't want to sidetrack this thread too much but I think it is safest to see where the O ranks after the season. Afterall, our almost equally "no talent" D led the league in overall D for much of last season.

Ravage!!!
10-03-2010, 11:21 AM
And this is all new? Really?

Marshall didn't take it to the house. ;) He was known as a monster of YAC, not being a burner. We weren't scoring previously either.

Our previous RB's were hitting the red zone? We've been known as a team having issues in the red zone more than this season and the previous season.

Take a look at some stats. It's not hard to find. :shrugs:

I agree with everyone on the Hillis issue. I do agree that McDaniels didn't want him taking the place of his 1st ever 1st round pick. But what's done is done. Find someone who can run the freaking ball. This is the only way of being a rational fan...you have to be able to admit the opposite of your personal feelings. I like McDaniels, I know he has made mistakes, and I am fully ok with admitting he has made mistakes. At the same time, I see that he has done a lot of positive. I think over time, it will pay off.

I just hate looking at the past consistently over and over as if that is going to fix the future.

But the title is what would it take. The points of what he has done to remove talent are some of the things that would need to be OVERcome to make those of us that aren't on board, to get on ship. It can't be "it is what it is" because what it "is", is we seem to be spinning.


*Removing a player only to draft a player that reminds you of the one you removed.
*Trading away a TE only to then trade with the same team to get a TE to replace the TE that you traded away.
*Removing a stud RB only to watch our RBs pathetically fail while the removed RB is tearing it up.
*Removing a QB only to then draft a 'project' QB the following year.

Brandon scored more TDs last season than Andre Johnson has ever scored in a season.. That IS a threat to take it to the house, because of his YAC. He was ESPECIALLY a threat near the goal line. Orton is playing better, how would that make a stud WR better? I hear how we have "replaced his production" purely because the yardage is there. Thats just not realistic.

jhildebrand
10-03-2010, 11:22 AM
If McDaniels uses Tebow in the RZ today, it will be the epitome of why I currently don't care for the guy too much!

That and his insistence for washed up New England players :sick:

Ravage!!!
10-03-2010, 11:27 AM
If McDaniels uses Tebow in the RZ today, it will be the epitome of why I currently don't care for the guy too much!

That and his insistence for washed up New England players :sick:

I never understood why he made those comments about the questions on it last week. The questions made sense, and imo, not using him on the goalline doesn't make sense.

Although I didn't like the comments,and felt they were pretty asinine, I will give him props if he DOES use Tebow on the goalline this week. At least he can't be said to be too stubborn to do whats right, instead of trying to stick to his own words.

jhildebrand
10-03-2010, 11:31 AM
I never understood why he made those comments about the questions on it last week. The questions made sense, and imo, not using him on the goalline doesn't make sense.

Although I didn't like the comments,and felt they were pretty asinine, I will give him props if he DOES use Tebow on the goalline this week. At least he can't be said to be too stubborn to do whats right, instead of trying to stick to his own words.

I agree with you. I hope he isn't so stubborn to cut off his nose to spite his face. But that situation and calling the suggestion ridiculous, and almost the reporter who made the suggestion, is why I don't care for the guy.

I don't think he has control of his emotions and that was a perfect instance.

GEM
10-03-2010, 11:38 AM
See, no matter what he does, nobody is happy. Last week it was why didn't he use Tebow in the red zone. Now it's if he uses Tebow, it's the epitome of why I don't like him. No matter what he does, some won't be happy. You can't change the standard all the time.

GEM
10-03-2010, 11:41 AM
But the title is what would it take. The points of what he has done to remove talent are some of the things that would need to be OVERcome to make those of us that aren't on board, to get on ship. It can't be "it is what it is" because what it "is", is we seem to be spinning.


*Removing a player only to draft a player that reminds you of the one you removed.
*Trading away a TE only to then trade with the same team to get a TE to replace the TE that you traded away.
*Removing a stud RB only to watch our RBs pathetically fail while the removed RB is tearing it up.
*Removing a QB only to then draft a 'project' QB the following year.

Brandon scored more TDs last season than Andre Johnson has ever scored in a season.. That IS a threat to take it to the house, because of his YAC. He was ESPECIALLY a threat near the goal line. Orton is playing better, how would that make a stud WR better? I hear how we have "replaced his production" purely because the yardage is there. Thats just not realistic.

All of your bullets, with the exception of Hillis...all of them had attitude issues that didn't fit in with what the coach was attempting.

So what now....because some aren't happy that he hasn't turned it around in a season and 3 games, fire him and start over? The things you want overcome aren't going to happen overnight, so prepare to be disappointed and I'll keep prepared to deal with all the bitching until it happens. :shrugs:

broncophan
10-03-2010, 11:44 AM
See, no matter what he does, nobody is happy. Last week it was why didn't he use Tebow in the red zone. Now it's if he uses Tebow, it's the epitome of why I don't like him. No matter what he does, some won't be happy. You can't change the standard all the time.

Exactly what I was thinking...I think many around here would have a problem if McD farted running out onto the field........

CrazyHorse
10-03-2010, 11:49 AM
It's simple. A championship.

DenBronx
10-03-2010, 11:50 AM
See, no matter what he does, nobody is happy. Last week it was why didn't he use Tebow in the red zone. Now it's if he uses Tebow, it's the epitome of why I don't like him. No matter what he does, some won't be happy. You can't change the standard all the time.

With all of the problems we have on defense people are more upset with burning 4 picks (1st rounder) on a project QB that won't be used as a QB. I understand his physical abilities are off the charts but how exactlly does he benifit the team today? When Tebow is in on goal line packages it makes teams automatically think it's a wildcat run. That fools no one. Right now, the only way I see Tebow benifiting the team is to place him in more of an H-Back role while developing to be the QB of the future.

2009 was a year to focus on defense. We failed miserably.

Josh just needs to stick with a game plan and start helping the team put points on the board. That and winning will make fans support him. Maybe not like him but at least show support.

Ravage!!!
10-03-2010, 11:52 AM
All of your bullets, with the exception of Hillis...all of them had attitude issues that didn't fit in with what the coach was attempting.

So what now....because some aren't happy that he hasn't turned it around in a season and 3 games, fire him and start over? The things you want overcome aren't going to happen overnight, so prepare to be disappointed and I'll keep prepared to deal with all the bitching until it happens. :shrugs:

The "attitude" thing, just doesn't work for a lot of us. We find it to be complete BS. So the fact that he HAS to 'replace' the talent that was already here, is something some of as seeing as HIS doing. He's created MORE holes purely because he has a hard time getting along with, not only players, but coaches.

So if he's going to make SOO many bold moves, and coming in and dismantling a young offense filled with bright stars in the making, he BETTER show that he can overcome those bold moves in a HURRY. Otherwise, he's just dismanteled a young offense only to put us behind for LONGER. Not exactly what the team needed.

MANY coaches come into an organization and build with what they have and don't remove the biggest, young, talent on the team within a season. Thats why he's on the criticism spotlight, because those kind of moves DESERVE a critical eye until they can be proved to be right moves.

Ravage!!!
10-03-2010, 11:54 AM
See, no matter what he does, nobody is happy. Last week it was why didn't he use Tebow in the red zone. Now it's if he uses Tebow, it's the epitome of why I don't like him. No matter what he does, some won't be happy. You can't change the standard all the time.

I don't think it was that McD would USE Tebow in the RZ that would draw his criticisms... it was the fact that he basically called the question about it "ridiculous" as if the thought of using him was absurd. It was those comments "about the question" that jhid was referring too.

Northman
10-03-2010, 12:04 PM
Unfortunately, no one will remove emotion on either side. It's a love or hate relationship with McDaniels and it won't matter what he does, there will always be a reason to absolutely hate the guy or stand behind him no matter what. Win or loss, Super Bowl or not, there will always be reasons to hate the man, because he didn't do it how fans wanted him to do it. End of the season on game 16 on a down note, and there will always be fans that will say, better luck next year, he's making the strides necessary during a rebuild.

No matter what, there will always be the extreme fans.


But its not the norm nor the majority.

I can only think of two guys on this forum right now that just think that Josh is a bad guy all the way around from top to bottom. Just like i can think of 3-4 guys/gals who think that McD can do absolutely no wrong. So in that essence your right, there will always be a select few who just simply wont get over their own biases. But the majority of fans who have been critical simply want to see the results and they have their own reasons and timetables of expectancy for those results. Im fine with McDaniels just so as i can see progress. Right now there has been none despite what others may believe on their own. Just because you or Bosco may believe the team is heading in the right direction does not make it so. For some of us, its going to take more than the "rah rah rah" mantra to win us over. Especially if we are not winning games.

Northman
10-03-2010, 12:07 PM
And yet, this team with no talent has an offense putting up higher numbers than that talent ridden team of yesteryear. :shrugs:

I guess thats great if all you care about is fantasy football. :lol:

turftoad
10-03-2010, 12:13 PM
The "attitude" thing, just doesn't work for a lot of us. We find it to be complete BS. So the fact that he HAS to 'replace' the talent that was already here, is something some of as seeing as HIS doing. He's created MORE holes purely because he has a hard time getting along with, not only players, but coaches.

So if he's going to make SOO many bold moves, and coming in and dismantling a young offense filled with bright stars in the making, he BETTER show that he can overcome those bold moves in a HURRY. Otherwise, he's just dismanteled a young offense only to put us behind for LONGER. Not exactly what the team needed.

MANY coaches come into an organization and build with what they have and don't remove the biggest, young, talent on the team within a season. Thats why he's on the criticism spotlight, because those kind of moves DESERVE a critical eye until they can be proved to be right moves.


I totally agree with this. I also don't trust the guy.

jhildebrand
10-03-2010, 12:38 PM
I don't want to sidetrack this thread too much but I think it is safest to see where the O ranks after the season. Afterall, our almost equally "no talent" D led the league in overall D for much of last season.

Once our D was "exposed" they never adjusted....or so the critics say.

Now our O has been exposed. Let's see if McD can adjust. Teams are going to tee off on us from here on out because they don't fear our running game. That was a problem last year, we couldn't run and teams could put their focus on the LOS knowing our passes would be dink and dunk.

GEM
10-03-2010, 01:24 PM
I guess thats great if all you care about is fantasy football. :lol:

That's all it added up to then, no difference.

Elevation inc
10-03-2010, 04:38 PM
Once our D was "exposed" they never adjusted....or so the critics say.

Now our O has been exposed. Let's see if McD can adjust. Teams are going to tee off on us from here on out because they don't fear our running game. That was a problem last year, we couldn't run and teams could put their focus on the LOS knowing our passes would be dink and dunk.

:lol: at least kyle can throw past ten yds this year so we can still spread the field.....

LRtagger
10-03-2010, 07:51 PM
I've generated a list based on observations from a couple message boards. Here is what McDaniels needs to do to win support from 100% of the fanbase:

*Every draft pick must be an all-pro as a rookie
*Orton has to outplay Cutler every single week
*All of our RBs have to outplay Hillis every single week
*All of our receivers have to outplay Marshall every single week
*We have to win every game in a route
*Kyle Orton has to carry the team on his back and come from behind in every 4th quarter
*Our Defense needs to be ranked top 5 in rushing yards given up
*Our Defense needs to be ranked top 5 in passing yards given up
*Our Defense has to outplay Miami's every single week
*No players can get injured ever
*We have to score a TD every time we get into the red zone
*Every fan must approve of all trades before McDaniels has approval to complete trade
*Every player McDaniels trades or cuts MUST be a failure in the league and life in general from there after
*Other teams must play mistake free and we still must win in blowout fashion to ensure that we can win every game without having any breaks go our way


Feel free to add anything that I may have overlooked.

spikerman
10-03-2010, 07:59 PM
I've generated a list based on observations from a couple message boards. Here is what McDaniels needs to do to win support from 100% of the fanbase:

*Every draft pick must be an all-pro as a rookie
*Orton has to outplay Cutler every single week
*All of our RBs have to outplay Hillis every single week
*All of our receivers have to outplay Marshall every single week
*We have to win every game in a route
*Kyle Orton has to carry the team on his back and come from behind in every 4th quarter
*Our Defense needs to be ranked top 5 in rushing yards given up
*Our Defense needs to be ranked top 5 in passing yards given up
*Our Defense has to outplay Miami's every single week
*No players can get injured ever
*We have to score a TD every time we get into the red zone
*Every fan must approve of all trades before McDaniels has approval to complete trade
*Every player McDaniels trades or cuts MUST be a failure in the league and life in general from there after
*Other teams must play mistake free and we still must win in blowout fashion to ensure that we can win every game without having any breaks go our way


Feel free to add anything that I may have overlooked.
You left out "walk on water". I figured if you were going to be ridiculous so would I.

Northman
10-03-2010, 08:01 PM
You left out "walk on water". I figured if you were going to be ridiculous so would I.

Agreed.

It gets pretty sad when you are actually trying to be serious and some people just cant get play nice.

Bosco
10-03-2010, 08:12 PM
I've generated a list based on observations from a couple message boards. Here is what McDaniels needs to do to win support from 100% of the fanbase:

*Every draft pick must be an all-pro as a rookie
*Orton has to outplay Cutler every single week
*All of our RBs have to outplay Hillis every single week
*All of our receivers have to outplay Marshall every single week
*We have to win every game in a route
*Kyle Orton has to carry the team on his back and come from behind in every 4th quarter
*Our Defense needs to be ranked top 5 in rushing yards given up
*Our Defense needs to be ranked top 5 in passing yards given up
*Our Defense has to outplay Miami's every single week
*No players can get injured ever
*We have to score a TD every time we get into the red zone
*Every fan must approve of all trades before McDaniels has approval to complete trade
*Every player McDaniels trades or cuts MUST be a failure in the league and life in general from there after
*Other teams must play mistake free and we still must win in blowout fashion to ensure that we can win every game without having any breaks go our way


Feel free to add anything that I may have overlooked.

That's about it.

LRtagger
10-03-2010, 08:18 PM
Agreed.

It gets pretty sad when you are actually trying to be serious and some people just cant get play nice.

Excuse me for having some fun after a win. I'll go sulk with everyone else.

Northman
10-03-2010, 08:20 PM
Excuse me for having some fun after a win. I'll go sulk with everyone else.

Dude, i dont care if you have fun or celebrate. But there is a positive only thread you can go too. Im not sure why you would of brought that here in this thread. Plus, i didnt really read any sarcasm in that post so i apologize if it was meant in jest but i just dont think this is the thread for that. IMO

Nomad
10-03-2010, 08:24 PM
Dude, i dont care if you have fun or celebrate. But there is a positive only thread you can go too. Im not sure why you would of brought that here in this thread. Plus, i didnt really read any sarcasm in that post so i apologize if it was meant in jest but i just dont think this is the thread for that. IMO

That's why I high fived the post. I found it funny!!:D

LRtagger
10-03-2010, 08:27 PM
It was obviously an exageration made in jest. Although sometimes it does feel like some people expect most/all of that to happen every week.

Nomad
10-03-2010, 08:29 PM
It was obviously an exageration made in jest. Although sometimes it does feel like some people expect most/all of that to happen every week.

True!

Northman
10-03-2010, 08:31 PM
Of course, if someone made a simliar comment after we lost im not sure many would find humor it. But, carry on.

Day1BroncoFan
10-03-2010, 08:34 PM
As far as I'm concerned I think McD is doing good enough. Considering he's a sophmore coach this year he has made decent progress. He has done things I agree with and things I disagree with.

The ultimate goal is the Super Bowl, nothing short of that will make me happy in the long run. I say as long as the team is making progresss toward that goal then he is doing enough. I would say 4 or 5 years would be enough to find out. If we are not in or close to the Super Bowl by then we'll see.

LRtagger
10-03-2010, 08:40 PM
Of course, if someone made a simliar comment after we lost im not sure many would find humor it. But, carry on.

Yea, no one ever makes exaggerated "told you so" comments after a loss :rolleyes:

Northman
10-03-2010, 08:41 PM
Yea, no one ever makes exaggerated "told you so" comments after a loss :rolleyes:

I never said it didnt happen. Im just saying that we ALL should try to be a little better about our behavior on here. Is it really that hard?

jhildebrand
10-03-2010, 08:45 PM
:lol: at least kyle can throw past ten yds this year so we can still spread the field.....

Well the adjustments took place and paid off. They did a good job of plugging away.

I also like that they decided to throw for TD's instead of running. I cant and wont complain about it.

LRtagger
10-03-2010, 08:46 PM
I never said it didnt happen. Im just saying that we ALL should try to be a little better about our behavior on here. Is it really that hard?

What "behavior"? I made a post you didnt like. Other people thought it was funny. Get over it.

Northman
10-03-2010, 08:49 PM
What "behavior"? I made a post you didnt like. Other people thought it was funny. Get over it.

No, you were baiting. But **** it. Im tired of being civil with people i guess its just flat out asking too much.

BroncoBJ
10-03-2010, 08:50 PM
I've been a McD fan since he came here. I loved his 1st presser when he talked about he wants us to perform under pressure and all that. It all seemed real to me. Even after trading Jay, I didn't get pissed. I knew he wasn't here to sabatage us like some people thought. Get rid of Jay, Marshall, Scheffler, Hillis and still have the #1 passing offense in the league right now.

I wasn't too fond of his 1st draft class though. And I hated that we went from the zone blocking scheme which worked great to his power offense stuff. But I like the guy as a person and a coach. Would love to make the playoffs this year and win a playoff game or more.

Tired of people hating on him. Bronco fans or not. People always acting like hes an idiot and stuff. Especially Raider fans talking about him being a shitty coach :lol: :fight:

DenBronx
10-03-2010, 08:59 PM
Well it should be noted that McDaniels has Orton with second most yards in the first 4 games in NFL history.

This only comes with coaching because Orton was not this guy before this year. So, you can really see the development on display.


Also, worthy of noting. McDaniels actually settled for field goals at times. Which won us the game unlike last week vs Indy. If you don't panick and just stick to the game plan and take the field goals when you have to at least you will still be in the game.


Week by week though. I'm not big on McDaniels but I have no problems giving credit when credit is due. I also have no problems dishing out critizism when due.

Northman
10-03-2010, 09:03 PM
Week by week though. I'm not big on McDaniels but I have no problems giving credit when credit is due. I also have no problems dishing out critizism when due.

I think its going to be like that until we see more consistency throughout the year.

honz
10-03-2010, 09:04 PM
McDaniels had me at "*cough* *lipsmack* hello. *lipsmack*"

Buff
10-03-2010, 09:08 PM
Even after trading Jay, I didn't get pissed.

:hahaha:

Didn't you post like a 10 minute tearful video on Youtube because you were so pissed?

TXBRONC
10-03-2010, 11:04 PM
It was obviously an exageration made in jest. Although sometimes it does feel like some people expect most/all of that to happen every week.

I'm not trying to pile on LR but it wasn't clear to me either. (seriously)

DenBronx
10-03-2010, 11:13 PM
I think its going to be like that until we see more consistency throughout the year.

Absolutely! That's really the key and will this work against the Ravens and Jets type defenses. I think we can stop the Ravens offense and at least slow down the Jets but our offense will have to do what it did today, only better to beat the good teams. We really lost to ourselves in the Jags game with stupid penalties and had some poor decision making in the Colts game. It's going to come down to consistency, execution and harmony to win.

GEM
10-03-2010, 11:17 PM
I never said it didnt happen. Im just saying that we ALL should try to be a little better about our behavior on here. Is it really that hard?

Shouldn't that behavior start with ourselves before asking others to do so? :confused: I love ya to death, North....but you've been pretty heavy on the very thing you are asking of others.

HORSEPOWER 56
10-03-2010, 11:28 PM
It's a pretty simple answer for me. I'm a typical, spoiled Broncos fan who is used to being in playoff contention every year. If Josh can do that, I'll love him. If he can't... NEXT!

I disagree with many of the player and staff personnel decisions he's made, but even more-so I disagree with the immediate, absolute power he was given when he arrived which is what I believe led to Shanahan's downfall. I kinda resent him for it even though it is more Bowlen's fault than anyone.

Really though, it's about being competitive. I want the Broncos to have a shot to go all the way (I don't expect to be in the Superbowl every year, but there's no reason we're not in the playoff hunt annually) which means being flexible, being able to adapt, and being able to win with the team you have. If he can do that, I won't have any real problems with him other than the usual bitching that everyone does when we lose... I HATE to lose.

Tned
11-23-2010, 10:43 PM
Ok, i'm curious. At the risk of starting a thread that will spiral out of control, I think it's a topic worth discussing

While this doesn't apply to everyone, a great many people now fall into one of the following two categories:


Defend McDaniels unconditionally, which typically also includes bashing Shanahan and former players.
Criticize McDaniels and every decision he makes, while never, or rarely, giving him credit for the good decisions.


There is no point in asking what it will take to get those bashing former players/coaches to stop, because clearly those ex-players/coaches are not going to do anything to change their minds, and those attacking them simply as a means of defending McDaniels and current players (a lot of the bashing), won't stop until they feel the McDaniels criticism has stopped. Those bashing them based on 'emotion', typically feel betrayed in some manner, and nothing those players/coaches do will change that. So, there is really no point in trying to understand/discuss group one, in my opinion.

That leaves us with those that simply don't like McDaniels and criticize him at every turn, rarely, if ever, giving him credit for the good things he's done.

So, my questions are:

Why do you feel this way?
and
What do you need to see McDaniels do before you will be sold on him as a good head coach and want to see him as the Denver head coach for years to come?

Let's discuss it.

I think the question is still a good one.

BroncoStud
11-23-2010, 11:10 PM
McDaniels the coach I'm ok with, not happy, but willing to give more time to because he's so young. McDaniels the GM needs to go, period. His decisions have already set Denver back in many ways and I have no faith that he can draft effectively or make wise trades.

Davii
11-23-2010, 11:49 PM
McDaniels the coach I'm ok with, not happy, but willing to give more time to because he's so young. McDaniels the GM needs to go, period. His decisions have already set Denver back in many ways and I have no faith that he can draft effectively or make wise trades.

You know... It's amazing that the posts i'm reading look the exact same as those about Shanny before he departed.

That the HC the GM was the problem, not the HC the HC.

Kind of makes me wonder why Bowlen entrusted another HC to run everything.

topscribe
11-23-2010, 11:51 PM
winning the mother****in' game!


:salute:


/thread

-----

Tned
11-23-2010, 11:55 PM
You know... It's amazing that the posts i'm reading look the exact same as those about Shanny before he departed.

That the HC the GM was the problem, not the HC the HC.

Kind of makes me wonder why Bowlen entrusted another HC to run everything.

Yep, and while I don't remember the exact wording in Bowlen's press conference after Shanahan's firing, I am pretty sure he made it clear that the GM and HC roles would be separate.

Lancane
11-24-2010, 12:07 AM
He would have to commit seppuku at this point and time. And it would only affirm my position that he 'was' and 'always' shall be an egotistical, maniacal and dimwitted self absorbed idiot I believe he is.

turftoad
11-24-2010, 01:24 AM
He wasn't and isn't ready.

We are the gineau pigs.

In-com-plete
11-24-2010, 07:08 AM
I'm not going to read through all these pages, I'm just going to post.

I dont' post much anymore, but if anyone really wants, they can go back and read my old posts from shortly after we hired McD***.

I honestly have never liked or believed in him. At 6-0 last season, I started to buy in. Didn't like him, but I started to buy in. So that's the kind of thing it would take. 5-1 to finish out the season and my hate holds.

Then, if we'd go like 7-3 through 10 next season (with a last place schedule) I may start to buy into him and his system. That is, if he's even still here.

All he has to do is win. Winning cures everything. I actually defended his sorry ass after Haley wouldn't shake his hand. Why? Probably because we just stomped the Chefs and I was happy. Thinking that maybe he fixed some things after the bye week.

But it's that simple. Win. Win 50% of your games! That's where we were in '06-'08. I'm not happy with that, but a lot happier than I am now.

CoachChaz
11-24-2010, 07:29 AM
Tough call. One thing I notice in the games I'm actually able to watch is the lack of execution...especially in the defense. The OL is young and blows blocking assignments at the wrong time. Harris will never stay healthy. Clady simply isnt the same player.

On defense, all we have is two names. Bailey and Dawkins. Dawkins looks like a rookie more this season than he did in his actual rookie season and Bailey just isnt the same player for obvious reasons. After that, we have an above average LB in Williams.

If we had actual under 30 talent on defense, I think things would be a lot different. Aside from that...it's the execution. Poor blocking, dropped passes, running wrong routes, etc. I guess it's easy to blame that on the coach and say he didnt have the players "prepared", but that seems similar to the coach taking the blame for a player forgetting to tie their shoes.


The flipside...I dont know that McD is totally ready for this gig. I think his personnel moves are sometimes made more with his heart than with his brain. Yes he has made some decisions that can be expected from a young, new coach...but I think with a seasoned OL and actual talent on defense...this team will be fine. It's just not going to happen in a season and half.

Nomad
11-24-2010, 07:44 AM
Close your eyes, tap your heels 3 times and say, "All the BRONCOS need to do is win, All the BRONCOS need to do is win, All the BRONCOS need to do is win"!!!:lol:

claymore
11-24-2010, 07:52 AM
I dont think McD is a good coordinator let alone a good HC. I think the sooner he is in the rear view mirror the better.

Im glad Orton is having his best season ever yards wise, but everything else sucks.

CoachChaz
11-24-2010, 08:06 AM
I dont think McD is a good coordinator let alone a good HC. I think the sooner he is in the rear view mirror the better.

Im glad Orton is having his best season ever yards wise, but everything else sucks.

I'll half way agree with this. I said in another post that if someone told you two years ago that the combination of Kyle Orton and Brandon Lloyd could be a Pro-Bowl passing attack, you would have laughed. It says something about a coordinator and an offense to make that happen.

Yes, he has made mistakes as a young head coach...no one can deny that, but put some actual talent on the defensive side of the ball and who knows what could happen.

If he fails with talent, then get rid of him...but he has to have the talent first...and that doesnt happen in less than 2 years

In-com-plete
11-24-2010, 08:18 AM
I dont think McD is a good coordinator let alone a good HC. I think the sooner he is in the rear view mirror the better.

Im glad Orton is having his best season ever yards wise, but everything else sucks.

It was great in '04 when Plummer threw for 4050+ yards and broke Elways record. It was great in '08 when Cutler threw for 4500+ yards and broke Plummers. And it'll be great when Orton throws for 4600+ yards and breaks Cutlers.

But I find this funny considering I think Elway > Plummer > Cutler > Orton.

It's good for Orton he's tearing it up. He's clearly gotten better and doesn't just dump it off like he did in Chicago.

And I mean no offense when I say this. But I'm just kinda sick of saying "Atleast we can hang our hat on (Plummer/Cutler/Orton) having a great year and breaking the Broncos single season yardage record".

Especially when each of those years produced 0 playoff wins.

claymore
11-24-2010, 08:19 AM
I'll half way agree with this. I said in another post that if someone told you two years ago that the combination of Kyle Orton and Brandon Lloyd could be a Pro-Bowl passing attack, you would have laughed. It says something about a coordinator and an offense to make that happen.

Yes, he has made mistakes as a young head coach...no one can deny that, but put some actual talent on the defensive side of the ball and who knows what could happen.

If he fails with talent, then get rid of him...but he has to have the talent first...and that doesnt happen in less than 2 years
The crazy thing about that, and another reason we are bad IMO... Is Orton has nothing to do with our future good or bad.


BTW, its good to see/talk to you Chaz, hope all is well In Texas.

claymore
11-24-2010, 08:22 AM
It was great in '04 when Plummer threw for 4050+ yards and broke Elways record. It was great in '08 when Cutler threw for 4500+ yards and broke Plummers. And it'll be great when Orton throws for 4600+ yards and breaks Cutlers.

But I find this funny considering I think Elway > Plummer > Cutler > Orton.

It's good for Orton he's tearing it up. He's clearly gotten better and doesn't just dump it off like he did in Chicago.

And I mean no offense when I say this. But I'm just kinda sick of saying "Atleast we can hang our hat on (Plummer/Cutler/Orton) having a great year and breaking the Broncos single season yardage record".

Especially when each of those years produced 0 playoff wins.
Ive ran out of "Atleast's" I think. There isnt a player on the roster im excited about. Maybe Royal.

Nomad
11-24-2010, 08:40 AM
Perhaps McDaniels is Shanahan part deux when it comes to evaluating defensive talent! If anything, Bowlen could experiment with an experienced consultant who is defensively sound to help McDaniels and Xanders. But Bowlen letting McDaniels and Xanders have another draft by themselves will be the same results!! Something has to adjust and obviously our current regime needs help and guidance!!

In-com-plete
11-24-2010, 09:35 AM
Ive ran out of "Atleast's" I think. There isnt a player on the roster im excited about. Maybe Royal.

I'm actually excited about Lloyd. He reminds me of Lelie. Only he can run a route, catch the ball, make diving catches, and actually stay on his feet after a catch.

Never understood that about him. He was like those fainting goats that fall over after you scare them. Only Lelie would do that every time the ball hit his hands.

Dreadnought
11-24-2010, 09:55 AM
I'm actually excited about Lloyd. He reminds me of Lelie. Only he can run a route, catch the ball, make diving catches, and actually stay on his feet after a catch.

Never understood that about him. He was like those fainting goats that fall over after you scare them. Only Lelie would do that every time the ball hit his hands.

That is the single best description of Ashley Lelie I've ever seen. It explains him perfectly.

Tned
11-24-2010, 10:01 AM
I'm actually excited about Lloyd. He reminds me of Lelie. Only he can run a route, catch the ball, make diving catches, and actually stay on his feet after a catch.

Never understood that about him. He was like those fainting goats that fall over after you scare them. Only Lelie would do that every time the ball hit his hands.

I'm excited about Lloyd, but concerned that he has just blossomed in his 8th season. That means he might 'unblossom', or better said revert.

GEM
11-24-2010, 10:27 AM
That is the single best description of Ashley Lelie I've ever seen. It explains him perfectly.

Nope...that's Kyle Orton after he takes his first sack of the game. After that all a rusher has to do is look at him and he falls down. :D

we9_CdNPuJg

topscribe
11-24-2010, 10:50 AM
It was great in '04 when Plummer threw for 4050+ yards and broke Elways record. It was great in '08 when Cutler threw for 4500+ yards and broke Plummers. And it'll be great when Orton throws for 4600+ yards and breaks Cutlers.

But I find this funny considering I think Elway > Plummer > Cutler > Orton.

It's good for Orton he's tearing it up. He's clearly gotten better and doesn't just dump it off like he did in Chicago.

And I mean no offense when I say this. But I'm just kinda sick of saying "Atleast we can hang our hat on (Plummer/Cutler/Orton) having a great year and breaking the Broncos single season yardage record".

Especially when each of those years produced 0 playoff wins.

A Plummer-led team beat NE in the playoffs following the 2005 season. As I
recall, that was the first postseason game Brady ever lost . . .

-----

topscribe
11-24-2010, 10:53 AM
That is the single best description of Ashley Lelie I've ever seen. It explains him perfectly.

Except that all Lelie seemed good at was a fly pattern down the field. He
didn't do comebacks or hot routes, and he religiously avoided the slant across
the middle. Lloyd does it all. Plus, Lloyd blocks . . .

-----

TXBRONC
11-24-2010, 10:58 AM
Winning that covers a multitude of sins.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

Ravage!!!
11-24-2010, 11:02 AM
I just can't buy into the guy. I don't buy into the "if he only had talent" reasoning. Coaches can coach.

McD may never get another HC job. He was brought to the attention as a viable candidate after coaching Brady. Its easy to be considered good, then. Look at Dungy.

But later on down the years, if he earns another HC job, he hopefully would have matured enough to realize that he has to EARN respect from people, first, and has to allow the other coaches to do THEIR jobs. He can't coach offense, defense, and special teams.

Right now, McD is SOOOOO over his head, and its showing.


Now I fully expect us to go out and absolutely stomp on AZ, and some people will say "see".... as if that proves something. There honestly isn't anything McD can do from this point forward that would make me believe that he's a good HC.

Elevation inc
11-24-2010, 11:03 AM
a miracle, a miracle, a miracle.......

arapaho2
11-24-2010, 11:27 AM
I'll half way agree with this. I said in another post that if someone told you two years ago that the combination of Kyle Orton and Brandon Lloyd could be a Pro-Bowl passing attack, you would have laughed. It says something about a coordinator and an offense to make that happen.

Yes, he has made mistakes as a young head coach...no one can deny that, but put some actual talent on the defensive side of the ball and who knows what could happen.

If he fails with talent, then get rid of him...but he has to have the talent first...and that doesnt happen in less than 2 years

problem is ....we had talent!!! and he didnt want it

the old excuse of..he needs talent....blah blah blah..is old and decrepid

he has completely built this team over to his image...these are his hand selected...high charactor...team oriented...players...and if he's lacking talent...whos faults that?

if were lacking defensive talent....why pass on orakpo...cushing..maluga...why take a rb at 12 when we had hillis or rbs just as good could be had later

if talent was needed...why trade the best back we had for a back up qb?...then why package multiple early picks to get a qb that in all accounts is at least a 3 yr project

lets not complain about a lack of talent...we had talent...we coulda drafted talent sorely needed..

this coach is the worst thing that coulda happened to the team after shanny grew stale..the worst thing!!

did morris have more talent tha mcd....how about haley..or ryan? no they kept what they had ..built up where they needed it...improved weak spots...and in thier second season are all winning

we have sunk to epic suckiness...

Elevation inc
11-24-2010, 11:45 AM
problem is ....we had talent!!! and he didnt want it

the old excuse of..he needs talent....blah blah blah..is old and decrepid

he has completely built this team over to his image...these are his hand selected...high charactor...team oriented...players...and if he's lacking talent...whos faults that?

if were lacking defensive talent....why pass on orakpo...cushing..maluga...why take a rb at 12 when we had hillis or rbs just as good could be had later

if talent was needed...why trade the best back we had for a back up qb?...then why package multiple early picks to get a qb that in all accounts is at least a 3 yr project

lets not complain about a lack of talent...we had talent...we coulda drafted talent sorely needed..

this coach is the worst thing that coulda happened to the team after shanny grew stale..the worst thing!!

did morris have more talent tha mcd....how about haley..or ryan? no they kept what they had ..built up where they needed it...improved weak spots...and in thier second season are all winning

we have sunk to epic suckiness...

i find it hilarious when the fans of those 3 teams that house these players arent to happy with the current play of said players...but for you there the answer here.....yes lets get a proven roider, a guy who can play LB for 2 downs but can' cover and takes horrible angles and a guy who cant be a good rush LB because of poor cover skills...orakpo...cushing..maluga...these 3are your saviors???? yikes im glad you aint in charge....

Cushing projected as a 4-3 Sam backer by many scouts, orakpo projected as a 4-3 RDE by many scouts, and Rey rey, while he has that fire and passion,he tends to forget how to execute his job on each play.....so tell me why try to put squares pegs in round holes???? none of those guys except for rey rey even fit our scheme, and so many people would have flipped and turned on rey rey now had we picked him at 12 or 18 because his current play does not even come close to what you want from that high a pick.....shit happens....

you wanna be mad be mad we got rid of hillis, and traded phonz to early, and drafted tebow when we didnt need to, and screwed the pooch on maroney and messed up on richard quinn.....but the ayers and moreno picks were not bad picks at all.....both were solid picks to fill needs that deserve more than 1 1/2 year window to determine if it was a great worthy pick...

arapaho2
11-24-2010, 11:58 AM
i find it hilarious when the fans of those 3 teams that house these players arent to happy with the current play of said players...but for you there the answer here.....yes lets get a proven roider, a guy who can play LB for 2 downs but can' cover and takes horrible angles and a guy who cant be a good rush LB because of poor cover skills...orakpo...cushing..maluga...these 3are your saviors???? yikes im glad you aint in charge....

Cushing projected as a 4-3 Sam backer by many scouts, orakpo projected as a 4-3 RDE by many scouts, and Rey rey, while he has that fire and passion,he tends to forget how to execute his job on each play.....so tell me why try to put squares pegs in round holes???? none of those guys except for rey rey even fit our scheme, and so many people would have flipped and turned on rey rey now had we picked him at 12 or 18 because his current play does not even come close to what you want from that high a pick.....shit happens....

you wanna be mad be mad we got rid of hillis, and traded phonz to early, and drafted tebow when we didnt need to, and screwed the pooch on maroney and messed up on richard quinn.....but the ayers and moreno picks were not bad picks at all.....both were solid picks to fill needs that deserve more than 1 1/2 year window to determine if it was a great worthy pick...

who cares...fact is we had talent...fact is this coach voided the team of it
orakpo...cushin...ect are examples of better talent we sorely needed but instead drafted a small..slow rb

orakpo...cushing,,,mathews....three probowl players drafted after KM

if you dont think that it would help...oh well

orakpo has 7.5 sacks as a 3-4 olb this season

i can live with ayers...its the crying that mcd cant win because hes got no talent...he had talent...he had the tools to get talent...if he sqaundered that...whos ******* faults that??

dont take three names to heart...fact is he had talent...he had the means to get talent...so a lack of talent should not be an excuse for loseing

jhildebrand
11-24-2010, 12:16 PM
At this point the only thing that would sell me on McDaniels would be seeing him agree to a bonafide GM be put in place and McDaniels do one thing only-BE THE HEAD COACH. If he were to agree to wear one hat and one hat alone, I would be ok with McDaniels here for more time.

It has happened in the past. The Rams did it with Vermeil, the Packers have done it. Outside of that, I have seen enough.

arapaho2
11-24-2010, 12:54 PM
At this point the only thing that would sell me on McDaniels would be seeing him agree to a bonafide GM be put in place and McDaniels do one thing only-BE THE HEAD COACH. If he were to agree to wear one hat and one hat alone, I would be ok with McDaniels here for more time.

It has happened in the past. The Rams did it with Vermeil, the Packers have done it. Outside of that, I have seen enough.


the only way i would keep him around is to be grudens gopher

slim
11-24-2010, 12:58 PM
At this point the only thing that would sell me on McDaniels would be seeing him agree to a bonafide GM be put in place and McDaniels do one thing only-BE THE HEAD COACH. If he were to agree to wear one hat and one hat alone, I would be ok with McDaniels here for more time.

It has happened in the past. The Rams did it with Vermeil, the Packers have done it. Outside of that, I have seen enough.

It has happened more times than people care to admit.

I think it is probably the right thing for Pat to do (that and firing Ellis).

Just restructure the FO and see what happens. If Josh complains, show him the door.

Elevation inc
11-24-2010, 01:23 PM
who cares...fact is we had talent...fact is this coach voided the team of it
orakpo...cushin...ect are examples of better talent we sorely needed but instead drafted a small..slow rb

orakpo...cushing,,,mathews....three probowl players drafted after KM

if you dont think that it would help...oh well

orakpo has 7.5 sacks as a 3-4 olb this season

i can live with ayers...its the crying that mcd cant win because hes got no talent...he had talent...he had the tools to get talent...if he sqaundered that...whos ******* faults that??

dont take three names to heart...fact is he had talent...he had the means to get talent...so a lack of talent should not be an excuse for loseing

lol...hilarious.....dont take names to heart but you wanna hang on the cutler/marshall/sheffler names for talent.....hypocritical much????

on the flipside i do agree he had the means to get more talent and he hasnt done that very well at all......

arapaho2
11-24-2010, 01:31 PM
lol...hilarious.....dont take names to heart but you wanna hang on the cutler/marshall/sheffler names.....hypocritical much????

never mentioned them did i?

nope

i stated three names..three probolw defensive players we could have taken ....but didnt in lew of a slow rb

we have defensive issues...the team is riddeld with age on defense..yet we blow three high picks to trade up and take a 3 yr project at qb

we had talent...we had the means and ways to get talent...the coach has screwed this up in every turn

what talent might we have gotten in the 1st round this season if he didnt waste the 14th pick to trade down for smith last year?

what holes could have we filled with a 2nd, 3rd and 4th rnd picks we used on a qb that will not start

im not crying about any particular name...

im just saying dont use an excuse mcd has no talent...he had...he had the means...and blew it

Italianmobstr7
11-24-2010, 01:35 PM
I still believe Josh will turn our team around and we'll be back to being a good football team next year. I don't think a year or 2 is enough time for him to get the team he really wants. We've had some bad luck, we've had some bad calls, we've excecuted poorly and we've even had bad coaching. A few plays go a different way and we're a 5-5 team or better. It just hasn't been in the cards for us this year. I'm excited to see what McD will do in FA and the draft this year. I think we have a chance to get some real playmakers to help our team next year. I think as Broncos fans we've been so spoiled for so long. Used to never having losing seasons, used to being in the SB once a decade at least since the 70's. I'm glad we got rid of Shanny. I do wish now looking back that we would've kept a lot of the O intact and fixed the D, but what's done is done. I'll support the new players who ARE Broncos and not worry about the guys who used to be Broncos but cried their way out of town. I'm behind Josh McDaniel's as long as he's a Bronco. I believe he can turn our team around.

Krugan
11-24-2010, 02:11 PM
Im sure everything im going to type here has already been said, there are much brighter football minds than mine around here, but anyway.

I could buy into him if he would be able to call a game when we were behind.

I could buy into him if he would just be abit more straight forward with where things are and what he is doing.

I could buy into him if he were able to adapt to the players he has a little better, ie stop breaking what isnt surely broken.

I could buy into him if he would stop bringing in every Pats cast off and replacing people that where here doing as good a job for less pay.(yes im still pissed about the overpayed long snapper)

I could buy into him if this team hadnt crapped its collective drawers 15 of the last 20 games.

I would need a loan to buy in I guess.

Nomad
11-24-2010, 03:38 PM
I still believe Josh will turn our team around and we'll be back to being a good football team next year. I don't think a year or 2 is enough time for him to get the team he really wants. We've had some bad luck, we've had some bad calls, we've excecuted poorly and we've even had bad coaching. A few plays go a different way and we're a 5-5 team or better. It just hasn't been in the cards for us this year. I'm excited to see what McD will do in FA and the draft this year. I think we have a chance to get some real playmakers to help our team next year. I think as Broncos fans we've been so spoiled for so long. Used to never having losing seasons, used to being in the SB once a decade at least since the 70's. I'm glad we got rid of Shanny. I do wish now looking back that we would've kept a lot of the O intact and fixed the D, but what's done is done. I'll support the new players who ARE Broncos and not worry about the guys who used to be Broncos but cried their way out of town. I'm behind Josh McDaniel's as long as he's a Bronco. I believe he can turn our team around.


I get frustrated but I believe he needs guidance perhaps by consultants and maybe Bowlen will do that for him! Mcdaniels really needs to focus on that defense but nothing can help him if he keeps getting blown out!! I'm bipolar with this one day I believe mcdaniels is in over his head then another I believe he can make this a competative football team!!

Lancane
11-24-2010, 04:23 PM
I still believe Josh will turn our team around and we'll be back to being a good football team next year. I don't think a year or 2 is enough time for him to get the team he really wants. We've had some bad luck, we've had some bad calls, we've excecuted poorly and we've even had bad coaching. A few plays go a different way and we're a 5-5 team or better. It just hasn't been in the cards for us this year. I'm excited to see what McD will do in FA and the draft this year. I think we have a chance to get some real playmakers to help our team next year. I think as Broncos fans we've been so spoiled for so long. Used to never having losing seasons, used to being in the SB once a decade at least since the 70's. I'm glad we got rid of Shanny. I do wish now looking back that we would've kept a lot of the O intact and fixed the D, but what's done is done. I'll support the new players who ARE Broncos and not worry about the guys who used to be Broncos but cried their way out of town. I'm behind Josh McDaniel's as long as he's a Bronco. I believe he can turn our team around.

You my friend are the epitome of a fan drunk on the spiked kool-aid! :lol:

I must have missed out on the kool-aid with the extra incentive, instead I got the same old shit with just too much sugar and not much promise.

;)

spikerman
11-24-2010, 04:45 PM
I still believe Josh will turn our team around and we'll be back to being a good football team next year. I don't think a year or 2 is enough time for him to get the team he really wants. We've had some bad luck, we've had some bad calls, we've excecuted poorly and we've even had bad coaching. A few plays go a different way and we're a 5-5 team or better. It just hasn't been in the cards for us this year. I'm excited to see what McD will do in FA and the draft this year. I think we have a chance to get some real playmakers to help our team next year. I think as Broncos fans we've been so spoiled for so long. Used to never having losing seasons, used to being in the SB once a decade at least since the 70's. I'm glad we got rid of Shanny. I do wish now looking back that we would've kept a lot of the O intact and fixed the D, but what's done is done. I'll support the new players who ARE Broncos and not worry about the guys who used to be Broncos but cried their way out of town. I'm behind Josh McDaniel's as long as he's a Bronco. I believe he can turn our team around.

Out of curiosity, what "bad calls" would have made a difference in where the team is now? Also, it's good you're looking back on it and realizing that maybe he should have focused on the defense. It's something many of us said at the time. Now, if only McDaniels would realize it.

Bowlen said he wouldn't let his head coach have as much power any more and yet he did it again. A famous definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. Time for Pat B. to look in the mirror when he wonders what became of his franchise.