good read

[arapaho2]

http://www.denverpost.com/sports/ci_16189991?source=pop



Hello, Mike. In the NFL, teams are supposed to improve every year from the previous season. Last year, the Broncos were No. 24 out of 32 teams in the red zone. It is apparent that it has become a problem for them once again this year. I give credit to Josh McDaniels being a good offensive-minded coach when it comes to collecting yards. However, when it comes to points (the critical step), he seems to lack any type of creativity within the red zone (http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_16182433). This continues to be the Broncos' downfall. Will this change any time soon?
-- Kevin, Washington
Kevin - Ah, the red zone. So little space. So many problems.
The Broncos' primary red-zone problem is their inability to run the ball. McDaniels runs a fairly sophisticated passing game that includes play-action, some misdirection, and one route working off the other. For this passing game to work in the close quarters of the red zone, the Broncos need to keep the defense honest with a running game.
That hasn't happened. Not only have there not been the 8-yard, delay-draw touchdown runs that seem to always make the around-the-league Sunday night highlight shows, but also there haven't been enough "bites" on play-action plays in the red zone.


As for the red-zone passing game, it would be easy to say the Broncos need more passes in the middle of the field, where the completion percentage is far higher than on those outside fades or comebacks. But every time I look up, it seems like the defense has eight or nine guys in the middle of the field. So those middle, crossing routes are also vulnerable to the interception.
McDaniels said at his press conference Monday that



http://extras.mnginteractive.com/live/media/site36/2010/0927/20100927__Bmail092810a~p1_200.jpg (http://www.denverpost.com/portlet/article/html/imageDisplay.jsp?contentItemRelationshipId=3314082 )



red zone is foremost about execution. Everybody runs the same two or three red-zone defenses. It's about Kyle Orton not reading "hitch" while Brandon Lloyd is reading "fade."



on hillis




How do you like Peyton Hillis now? Certain columnists at The Post suggested that the Bronco fans' support of Peyton Hillis was irrational and unwarranted. After all, what did he really prove in his short stint as the Broncos' starting RB in 2008? Well, after his performance against Baltimore, let me say that I feel our support for Hillis is justified.

-- Chad Jensen, Colorado Springs

Chad - Where have you been? I got through four letters into the mailbag before I finally plucked a Hillis inquiry. Everyone who followed the Broncos pre-McDaniels, including certain columnists at The Post, thought Hillis could play.
The reason why he was so revered here, and why he again is gaining cult-like popularity in Cleveland, is his style of play. Well, that and 144 yards rushing against the Ravens. But the point here is Hillis is the definition of north-and-south. I've peeked in at a couple Hillis plays and what continues to make him unique is his second effort. He just doesn't go down on first contact.
In McDaniels' defense, he wasn't here in 2008 when on that fourth-and-1 from the Broncos' own 45 against Cleveland, Hillis escaped from a certain 5-yard loss by bouncing off a tackle, and ramming forward for a drive-sustaining 2 yards. That led to a comeback win, which led to the Broncos eventually having a three-game lead with three to play. In large part because Hillis went down with a hamstring injury, the Broncos blew that three-game lead with three to play.
Had McDaniels been around to see that play, and what it meant to the team, I think he would have loved Hillis, too. Coaches do fall for players who come through for them. But McDaniels wasn't here when Hillis ran through so many tacklers, so he never really warmed up to the guy. And then when McDaniels tried, Hillis fumbled. It is unfortunate. Good blocks or no blocks, Hillis scores on fourth-and-1 from the 1 against the Colts. He just does.

[Day1BroncoFan]

True.

[broncofaninfla]

I will never understand why we didn't use Hillis then trade him away especially given the lack of talent in the RB position AND tarding away our most powerful runnerin a power running scheme. It just doesn't make sense. I would LOVE to hear Hillis's side to this soon, it won't be long before he starts showing up in nationwide interviews, I hope the question comes up......

[Thnikkaman]

I will never understand why we didn't use Hillis then trade him away especially given the lack of talent in the RB position AND tarding away our most powerful runnerin a power running scheme. It just doesn't make sense. I would LOVE to hear Hillis's side to this soon, it won't be long before he starts showing up in nationwide interviews, I hope the question comes up......

Because Hillis does this:

zAvWHa1BpMc

He is unable to read the blitz, and sucks as a blocker.

[Tned]

Because Hillis does this:

zAvWHa1BpMc

He is unable to read the blitz, and sucks as a blocker.

Yea, let's ignore the fact that he's a 250lb fullback that was considered the best option to return kicks, but instead just look at the fact that the 250lb fullback returning ONE kick (because there are so many 250lb fullbacks in the NFL returning kicks) fumbles.

Should we trade Moreno or Buck due to their handful of fumbles? Probably not, not sure we could live without their 2.2 YPC.

[arapaho2]

Because Hillis does this:

zAvWHa1BpMc

He is unable to read the blitz, and sucks as a blocker.

yet cox has fumbled 2 Kos ...right?

for someone unable to read the blitz or sucks as a blocker...its amazing he was considered the best blocking full back in the draft

[honz]

Blocks or no blocks, Hillis got stuffed at the goal line on multiple occasions last year.

[arapaho2]

Blocks or no blocks, Hillis got stuffed at the goal line on multiple occasions last year.


yet to humour you with facts...hillis had only three attempts within the 9 yard line last year...and scored once against that goal line defense

[Thnikkaman]

yet cox has fumbled 2 Kos ...right?

for someone unable to read the blitz or sucks as a blocker...its amazing he was considered the best blocking full back in the draft

If he can fix his problems in Cleveland, that's great. He couldn't do it here for some reason. Feel free to blame whoever you want, it doesn't change the fact that he is in Cleveland now. Really, I think he lost his confidence in Denver after he was injured, and the change of scenery was the best thing for him.

[honz]

yet to humour you with facts...hillis had only three attempts within the 9 yard line last year...and scored once against that goal line defense
About the same ratio as Moreno this year, I believe.

[honz]

Also, Hillis got bitched at twice early on last year for lining up wrong and not knowing the play call...this was when McD was trying to find ways to get him on the field by lining him up as a receiver and stuff.

[broncofaninfla]

About the same ratio as Moreno this year, I believe.

Moreno only played in two games this year, Hillis was ignored all sesaon long. There is no "football" reason that Hillis couldn't play in this current scheme/system.

[broncofaninfla]

Also, Hillis got bitched at twice early on last year for lining up wrong and not knowing the play call...this was when McD was trying to find ways to get him on the field by lining him up as a receiver and stuff.

Meanwhile Buck was hurt and Moreno was getting stuffed.

[Softskull]

About the same ratio as Moreno this year, I believe.

I'm not down on Moreno and think he will become a fine RB, but he was stuffed four times inside of the 2 yard line in the Seattle game alone. He did finally score, but his ratio sucks.

[arapaho2]

Also, Hillis got bitched at twice early on last year for lining up wrong and not knowing the play call...this was when McD was trying to find ways to get him on the field by lining him up as a receiver and stuff.


quinn?:lol:

[arapaho2]

About the same ratio as Moreno this year, I believe.


thats with the new and improved, beefier, larger, stronger, power blocking oline..right?

where hillis 3 carries were with the oline you all said was completly inadequat to powerblock in goal line offense

[rationalfan]

ugh. hillis, again.

i'm not a fan of the overzealous hillis fanaticism, but before you're screaming he was the best thing since OJ had a buffalo on his helmet let's see what he does over the course of a season.

man, dude makes one good play he's the best player on the team. dude has one good game, he's a savior.

[dogfish]

Also, Hillis got bitched at twice early on last year for lining up wrong and not knowing the play call...this was when McD was trying to find ways to get him on the field by lining him up as a receiver and stuff.

shoulda lined him up at tailback, and told him who to run over. . .

[honz]

shoulda lined him up at tailback, and told him who to run over. . .
Still not simple enough for that neanderthal. :cool:

[dogfish]

Still not simple enough for that neanderthal. :cool:

looked like he did okay last time he was on the field-- baltimore's not exactly a pushover defense, either. . . and running fools over isn't rocket science. . .

it wouldn't hurt me as much if we hadn't traded him for an utter waste of a roster spot. . . letting cleveland pull one over on him will always be a black mark on McD's resume. . . :laugh:

[Bosco]

I was just thinking to myself today "there hasn't been enough Hillis talk here lately."

[Tned]

I was just thinking to myself today "there hasn't been enough Hillis talk here lately."

I guess we're dumb like Hillis, we're slow to figure it out... ;)


looked like he did okay last time he was on the field-- baltimore's not exactly a pushover defense, either. . . and running fools over isn't rocket science. . .

it wouldn't hurt me as much if we hadn't traded him for an utter waste of a roster spot. . . letting cleveland pull one over on him will always be a black mark on McD's resume. . . :laugh:

Actually, there's probably a pretty good chance Baltimore's defense does suck. I'm sure our guys will rack up WAY more than that slow FB, Hillis, when we go to Baltimore in 10 days.

[Buff]

I guess we're dumb like Hillis, we're slow to figure it out... ;)

Well, you are both from Arkansas. :couch:

[Tned]

Well, you are both from Arkansas. :couch:

Well played... :laugh:


Actually, I'm from NY, I live in Arkansas... ;)

[dogfish]

Actually, there's probably a pretty good chance Baltimore's defense does suck. I'm sure our guys will rack up WAY more than that slow FB, Hillis, when we go to Baltimore in 10 days.

if by "guys" you mean "receivers," then i absolutely agree. . . :D

[Tned]

if by "guys" you mean "receivers," then i absolutely agree. . . :D

Nahh, running backs. If a slow, dumb full back (7th rounder) that nobody will make a starter until they have no other possible choice can put up 144 yards on Ray Lewis and company, then I would think our star studded backfield should be able to put up at least a deuce on Baltimore.

[DenBronx]

because hillis does this:

zavwha1bpmc

he is unable to read the blitz, and sucks as a blocker.



booooooooooooooooooo!!!!

[dogfish]

Nahh, running backs. If a slow, dumb full back (7th rounder) that nobody will make a starter until they have no other possible choice can put up 144 yards on Ray Lewis and company, then I would think our star studded backfield should be able to put up at least a deuce on Baltimore.

more like they're going to drop a deuce on our "running game". . .


:tsk:

[LRtagger]

Who is this Hillis character?

[TheDave]

It not very often that you trade a FB for a QB and feel ripped off...

[Mike]

Who is this Hillis character?

I think he is Chicago's QB? :noidea:

[rcsodak]

yet cox has fumbled 2 Kos ...right?

for someone unable to read the blitz or sucks as a blocker...its amazing he was considered the best blocking full back in the draft
he was never consideered the best. :tsk: And he was battling a LB for that position in denver. He wasn't a master at anything, but good at alot. Why didn't shanny try trading for him instead of a bunch of old-timers he eventually cut?
I liked Hillis BEFORE the draft....but he's gone. I'm high on Andre Brown now......and at least HE'S on the roster.
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[rcsodak]

Moreno only played in two games this year, Hillis was ignored all sesaon long. There is no "football" reason that Hillis couldn't play in this current scheme/system.

ok, coach. :coffee:
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[Ravage!!!]

I will never understand why we didn't use Hillis then trade him away especially given the lack of talent in the RB position AND tarding away our most powerful runnerin a power running scheme. It just doesn't make sense. I would LOVE to hear Hillis's side to this soon, it won't be long before he starts showing up in nationwide interviews, I hope the question comes up......

IT will, but he'll be discrete about it. He always has been.

I think we know I agree with ou on this. It was always obvious from day one the way Hillis could catch and run. It was obvious from the first time he was on the field, and that wasn't when he was named the "starting TB." He was making big plays with the swing pass from the FB position long before then.

It was a big oversight on McD's part. He had too much hope riding on Moreno to let him see that Hillis is the better player.

[rcsodak]

Well played... :laugh:


Actually, I'm from NY, I live in Arkansas... ;)
ahhh....home sweet home......

......double-wide.....coondogs......and wife(cousin)




:D
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[rcsodak]

Who is this Hillis character?
I thinks its detroit's TE
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[arapaho2]

he was never consideered the best. :tsk: And he was battling a LB for that position in denver. He wasn't a master at anything, but good at alot. Why didn't shanny try trading for him instead of a bunch of old-timers he eventually cut?
I liked Hillis BEFORE the draft....but he's gone. I'm high on Andre Brown now......and at least HE'S on the roster.
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yep he looks good sitting on the bench while smaller backs get stuffed at he goal line:lol:

[broncofaninfla]

ugh. hillis, again.

i'm not a fan of the overzealous hillis fanaticism, but before you're screaming he was the best thing since OJ had a buffalo on his helmet let's see what he does over the course of a season.

man, dude makes one good play he's the best player on the team. dude has one good game, he's a savior.

Until Denver fields a running back who can average more than 2 yards a carry, I'm going to keep harping on Hillis.

[broncofaninfla]

I was just thinking to myself today "there hasn't been enough Hillis talk here lately."

As long as Mcd's backs average two yards a carry, you can expect fans to keep mentioning Hillis's success in Cleveland.

[rcsodak]

Its one thing if buck/km only avg'd 2.5 last year as well...but they didn't. Neither spent any time in TC getting to know how the Oline blocks, their tendencies... The same can be said of the Oline about the rb tendencies. They're all playing catchup! Personally, they should have let the one rb that ran the ball in TC have a few swipes. But he's no ANDRE BROWN!! :tsk:
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[dogfish]

As long as Mcd's backs average two yards a carry, you can expect fans to keep mentioning Hillis's success in Cleveland.

people on the mcD agenda are just gonna have to accept that he's going to get criticized for his mistakes-- they can't just sweep them under the rug and pretend it never happened, it doesn't work like that. . . giving up a good young power runner when the backs we have are plain garbage was a real cluster****, bottom line. . .

[Mike]

people on the mcD agenda are just gonna have to accept that he's going to get criticized for his mistakes-- they can't just sweep them under the rug and pretend it never happened, it doesn't work like that. . . giving up a good young power runner when the backs we have are plain garbage was a real cluster****, bottom line. . .

Absolutely. No doubt about it. So were Smith and Quinn.

All that said, what's done is done. We are where we are and no amount of bringing it up every time Cutler/Marshall/Hillis have a good performance and incessant bitching about it is going to change it. Time will tell on McD...his successes or his failures. Bowlen won't put up with failure...so either McD succeeds or he is gone in a couple of years. We have no control over any of it, so just ride it out and hope for the best.

Don't worry, be happy. :D

[dogfish]

Absolutely. No doubt about it. So were Smith and Quinn.

All that said, what's done is done. We are where we are and no amount of bringing it up every time Cutler/Marshall/Hillis have a good performance and incessant bitching about it is going to change it. Time will tell on McD...his successes or his failures. Bowlen won't put up with failure...so either McD succeeds or he is gone in a couple of years. We have no control over any of it, so just ride it out and hope for the best.

Don't worry, be happy. :D

i can't really argue any of that. . . and for the most part, i AM happy with the overall direction of the franchise (i'll even go so far as to say "very happy" if we draft some defensive linemen next year)-- unlike a lot of people around here, i can point out and discuss mistakes while still being relatively happy with the big picture. . .

:elefant:

[Lonestar]

Big picture.

Steady improvement over last year.

Not necessarily where we left off but from where we started.

We are just to young and to many new players to take off with the ending numbers. A couple of years absolutely. But not yet. Way to mnlany newbies each year for continuity.
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[LRtagger]

http://standard-times.profootball.upickem.net/SharedContent/3/community/submissions/7478E.jpg

[Elevation inc]

people on the mcD agenda are just gonna have to accept that he's going to get criticized for his mistakes-- they can't just sweep them under the rug and pretend it never happened, it doesn't work like that. . . giving up a good young power runner when the backs we have are plain garbage was a real cluster****, bottom line. . .

i could understand last year some questions about hillis, but he just worked baltimore....i mean the dude would have demolished indy, we need and could use him here bottom line...MCD made a mistake...its just what it is.....i dont care why or what caused MCD to make the call to trade anymore...good for him, but in hindsight we could really use hillis, with all our dinged up backs playing poorly....

[Ravage!!!]

i could understand last year some questions about hillis, but he just worked baltimore....i mean the dude would have demolished indy, we need and could use him here bottom line...MCD made a mistake...its just what it is.....i dont care why or what caused MCD to make the call to trade anymore...good for him, but in hindsight we could really use hillis, with all our dinged up backs playing poorly....

Even when all of them are healthy, I believe Hillis is the better RB of the group.

[Elevation inc]

Even when all of them are healthy, I believe Hillis is the better RB of the group.

im not at that point yet, im still far from thinking moreno is a wash....but hillis could be very useful right now, just how it is....

[Elevation inc]

according to Profootballfocus.com

-2(poor)--- +2(good) zero is average.....


hillis has a 0.8 overall rating in 120 plays......
1.0 rating catching the ball/-0.5 rushing the ball/1.0 blocking

the reality is that is better than any RB we have right now....and clevlands OL is struggling horribly outside of Alex mack as well.....

hillis is not a great RB, but he would be getting the job done right now based of his current ratings

[Ravage!!!]

im not at that point yet, im still far from thinking moreno is a wash....but hillis could be very useful right now, just how it is....

No no.. not saying he's a wash. I'm just saying that, as of right now, I haven't seen anything from Moreno that makes him a better RB than Hillis. Hillis has just exceeded the expectations of him coming out of college. You can see why he was such a fan favorite in Arkansas.

I just think Hilllis is the best RB of the group. Running or catching.

[Elevation inc]

just for gee wiz...marshall's overall rating is a 0.9 thats worse than lloyd/royal/and DT for whatever reasons, but gaffney has a -1.8 rating(horrible blocker a -2.4 rating here)...keep in mind this takes everything in account....blocking, catching, running etc...

Cutler is a 2.4 which is .2 above orton and sheffler is a -0.5 rating these are year to date ratings

the only player signifigantly ahead since leaving here is suprisingly andra davis who is a full 2 points(3.4) ahead of haggan(1.4)

[rcsodak]

Even when all of them are healthy, I believe Hillis is the better RB of the group.
so are you saying ph is also better than cribbs? And why did cle just sign a cfl rb? I was a big hillis homer b4 he was even drafted. But this love affair with him is bordering on the Tebow craziness, to where I almost am glad hels gone! Its reaching overkill, imho. It MIGHT have been a mistake, but we'll NEVER KNOW . Eddymac may never have amounted to much had he not been with denver. Same goes with TD and shanny's system. I wish PH well as long as he's not playing denver.
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[Elevation inc]

so are you saying ph is also better than cribbs? And why did cle just sign a cfl rb? I was a big hillis homer b4 he was even drafted. But this love affair with him is bordering on the Tebow craziness, to where I almost am glad hels gone! Its reaching overkill, imho. It MIGHT have been a mistake, but we'll NEVER KNOW . Eddymac may never have amounted to much had he not been with denver. Same goes with TD and shanny's system. I wish PH well as long as he's not playing denver.
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right now hillis(0.9) is playing better than cribbs(0.1), who isnt a RB outside of wildcat stuff and outside of special teams, and they signed that RB from the CFL becasue harrison is playing like dog poop.....worse than any RB we have right now(he has a -5.8 rating from profootball focus) -2 is there cutoff for poor.....he is like beyond poor times 3...hahaha

[Ravage!!!]

so are you saying ph is also better than cribbs? And why did cle just sign a cfl rb? I was a big hillis homer b4 he was even drafted. But this love affair with him is bordering on the Tebow craziness, to where I almost am glad hels gone! Its reaching overkill, imho. It MIGHT have been a mistake, but we'll NEVER KNOW . Eddymac may never have amounted to much had he not been with denver. Same goes with TD and shanny's system. I wish PH well as long as he's not playing denver.
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Cribbs? Cribbs isn't a RB. I don't understand the question.

As far as why did Clev just sign another RB, because the 3rd RB on their roster is injured. You really think they are looking to sign a cfl RB to play in front of harrison and the RB that just ran for 144yrds against Baltimore?? :confused: I don't understand your question.

This isn't a love affari. I'm simply stating that Hillis is the best runner of ANY in our group of runners... period. Nothing, as of right now, shows me that Moreno is as good of a runner as Hillis. Hillis, when given the starting roles, has produced.... now on two teams. The only reason he lost his starting role here with Shanahan, was because of injury. I don't see where you are seeing the love affair from my comments.

But the reality is, until a RB... ANY RB...on our current roster starts actually showing something, can actually make a long run, can actually break one for a TD, or even rush for a SINGLE 100 yrd game, people will always look at what we gave away. Thats just the reality of it alll across the NFL.

[honz]

Hillis is dumb.

[Ravage!!!]

the only player signifigantly ahead since leaving here is suprisingly andra davis who is a full 2 points(3.4) ahead of haggan(1.4)

Those ratings are an interesting starting point of discussion, not sure if those numbers really are the end of them.

But its interesting to see about Andre since this was the one player on defense that the majority on the boards were shocked to see let go.

[Elevation inc]

Those ratings are an interesting starting point of discussion, not sure if those numbers really are the end of them.

But its interesting to see about Andre since this was the one player on defense that the majority on the boards were shocked to see let go.

well he has a 3.4 rating for the season in run defense but 0.0 in pass rush
haggan has a 4.0 rating in run defense, but a -1.8 in pass rush.....

like you said good starting point...seems haggan cant rush the passer in any form from anywhere, which drops his rating but excels at stopping the run something a TED needs to do....and davis is the same way just doenst rush the passer....

seems to me upon further review we havent lost anything at TED our run defense is still beastly from the TED spot which is probally why MCD had no problem moving haggan there, the problem seems to be if they send haggan after the Qb which they have done 3 times apprently he failed all 3 times....lol, maybe wink needs to try something else...haha didnt even know we sent haggan at all.....maybe they were delayed blitzes and he just got washed out...so it never looked like he was coming anyways...

[rcsodak]

Those ratings are an interesting starting point of discussion, not sure if those numbers really are the end of them.

But its interesting to see about Andre since this was the one player on defense that the majority on the boards were shocked to see let go.
hillis is slow. Sirius nfl guys were laughing about him not even keeping up with an Dlineman last week. Prolly meant harrison...whoever it was that ran wild the end of last yr. Andre Daviss is a great player as a bridge. We'll see how he does next year or if he's again replaced. Since I dont follow cle, why is their OL worse than last year's? Didnt they tear some good D's up?
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[Elevation inc]

hillis is slow. Sirius nfl guys were laughing about him not even keeping up with an Dlineman last week. Prolly meant harrison...whoever it was that ran wild the end of last yr. Andre Daviss is a great player as a bridge. We'll see how he does next year or if he's again replaced. Since I dont follow cle, why is their OL worse than last year's? Didnt they tear some good D's up?
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not sure but they are getting ripped up on the OL...alex mack is there only OL player that is doing good....the rest are pretty sad....


just for comarison the houston's texans interior 3 OL...are Avg. a +3.5 weekly rating......thats a excellent rating from there inside 3, 3 weeks in a row, and foster is avg a 3.2 rating.....a excellent rating as well....

there the number 1 rushing team becasue there OL and backs are playing like it.....

we need our OL and Rb's to ball its not just one or the other it seems...just throwing the info out there

[arapaho2]

hillis is slow. Sirius nfl guys were laughing about him not even keeping up with an Dlineman last week. Prolly meant harrison...whoever it was that ran wild the end of last yr. Andre Daviss is a great player as a bridge. We'll see how he does next year or if he's again replaced. Since I dont follow cle, why is their OL worse than last year's? Didnt they tear some good D's up?
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hillis is slow? as a 240 pound back

gee i wonder what that makes our moreno at 210


hillis pro day
40y....4.57
20y....2.64
10y..1.56

moreno proday

40y...4.59
20y...2.66
10y..1.58

hillis is 30 # heavier..yet faster in the open..and through the hole

[Tned]

The 104.3 guys asked McDaniels about Hillis and this is roughly what McDaniels said (got as much as I could, typing frantically):


Hillis is a good kid and has an opportunity to be a good player in this league.

To state what happened here. We have a system that require different things, we use running backs in different ways. When we tried to do that with Peyton, we didn't get the most out of peyton. Moving the backs around the way we do.

I haven't watched any of Cleveland's games, but from what I have seen in stats, he is doing well. I think that Hillis is the kind of guy that if you hand it to him 25 times a game and he is running down hill, he can be very effective. Our offense isn't built around that style.

[dogfish]

I think that Hillis is the kind of guy that if you hand it to him 25 times a game and he is running down hill, he can be very effective. Our offense isn't built around that style.

yep. . . we prefer running east-west and not picking up any yardage. . .

:salute:

[Ravage!!!]

hillis is slow. Sirius nfl guys were laughing about him not even keeping up with an Dlineman last week. Prolly meant harrison...whoever it was that ran wild the end of last yr. Andre Daviss is a great player as a bridge. We'll see how he does next year or if he's again replaced. Since I dont follow cle, why is their OL worse than last year's? Didnt they tear some good D's up?
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yeah... and yet he's faster then the #12th pick RB on our own roster. I wonder how they laugh at Moreno. Hillis isn't slow in the least.

[jhildebrand]

...we didn't get the most out of peyton.

That's no lie!



Moving the backs around the way we do.

How is that working out for the Broncos? :confused:



I think that Hillis is the kind of guy that if you hand it to him 25 times a game and he is running down hill, he can be very effective. Our offense isn't built around that style.

Gee...I could see why you wouldn't want a back who can take the ball 25+ carries a game and soften up a D for a burner.



Our offense isn't built around that style.


We know. :coffee: It is built on 2 YPC and more dancing than an episode of the Best of Soultrain.

[Lonestar]

The 104.3 guys asked McDaniels about Hillis and this is roughly what McDaniels said (got as much as I could, typing frantically):

well that kind of says it all.

he jsut did not fit our scheme like he should have and since we are no longer a run first team carrying a specialist RB was not in his or our best interests.

Still would have been nice to have him for those goal line shots Perhaps he could have made them.

[Tned]

well that kind of says it all.

he jsut did not fit our scheme like he should have and since we are no longer a run first team carrying a specialist RB was not in his or our best interests.

Still would have been nice to have him for those goal line shots Perhaps he could have made them.

One thing I just realized I left out of the transcript was right after he said that Hillis is better fit for a power running game, where you hand it to him 25+ times a game and let him run downhill, he said something like, "that's what we tried to do last season", which I found rather strange. I have to listen to it again, to hopefully fully catch what he was trying to say there.

On that note, in Paige's article, he said the Broncos use 100% ZBS against the Colts on Sunday.

[Ravage!!!]

Just don't buy this "doesn't fit the system" stuff. Such an easy thing to say, and some just 'buy' into those words because they want to believe it. It gives a "reason" as to why a mistake was made.

But.. like McD, I'm confident that if/when you give the ball to Hillis, he'll succeed.

[Bosco]

Not real hard to read between the lines there and see what Josh is saying. Unless you don't want to see it, of course.

[Tned]

Not real hard to read between the lines there and see what Josh is saying. Unless you don't want to see it, of course.

Translation: "blah, blah, blah Hillis is stupid, blah, blah, blah"...

[Bosco]

Translation: "blah, blah, blah Hillis is stupid, blah, blah, blah"...

I was actually thinking of adopting a signature of Hillis with a photoshopped dunce cap, but I am saving that for later.

[dogfish]

Not real hard to read between the lines there and see what Josh is saying. Unless you don't want to see it, of course.

i see him saying his inflexible system doesn't have room for another productive player. . . which i don't care so much about in scheffler's case because the passing game is doing just fine as is-- we could really use a running back that can actually RUN, though, aside from our one decent back who's currently on the shelf. . . having guys that can block and catch is all well and good, but somebody still needs to tote the rock as well. . . can't have orton throw it fifty times against a team like pittsburgh, they'll be digging his kidneys out of the turf before the end of the 3rd quarter. . .

[Bosco]

i see him saying his inflexible system doesn't have room for another productive player. . . which i don't care so much about in scheffler's case because the passing game is doing just fine as is-- we could really use a running back that can actually RUN, though, aside from our one decent back who's currently on the shelf. . . having guys that can block and catch is all well and good, but somebody still needs to tote the rock as well. . . can't have orton throw it fifty times against a team like pittsburgh, they'll be digging his kidneys out of the turf before the end of the 3rd quarter. . .

What in the world ever gave you the idea that Josh's offense was "inflexible"? It's quite the opposite in reality. Hell, Josh right there is effectively saying "We tried to use Peyton as our utility back (a la Kevin Faulk) and he couldn't handle it".

[Lonestar]

One thing I just realized I left out of the transcript was right after he said that Hillis is better fit for a power running game, where you hand it to him 25+ times a game and let him run downhill, he said something like, "that's what we tried to do last season", which I found rather strange. I have to listen to it again, to hopefully fully catch what he was trying to say there.

On that note, in Paige's article, he said the Broncos use 100% ZBS against the Colts on Sunday.

well if they did and frankly I didn't see it they blocked poorly for it and in the RZ it has not worked in a decade why would they think it would now. Again I did not see the ZBS in the RZ maybe woody is smoking something again.

[Tned]

well if they did and frankly I didn't see it they blocked poorly for it and in the RZ it has not worked in a decade why would they think it would now. Again I did not see the ZBS in the RZ maybe woody is smoking something again.

Andrew Mason said the same thing. They might not be the ones smoking something again... ;) :WalkedIntoThatOne:

[Tned]

I was actually thinking of adopting a signature of Hillis with a photoshopped dunce cap, but I am saving that for later.

Maybe it can be a dual sig. A rotating sig of each of Peyton's TDs this year, while wearing a dunce cap, and another of Moreno and company doing their 1 yard and a cloud of dust looking at the goalline they couldn't reach, while wearing an Einstein wig.

Great idea, I like it.

[dogfish]

What in the world ever gave you the idea that Josh's offense was "inflexible"? It's quite the opposite in reality. Hell, Josh right there is effectively saying "We tried to use Peyton as our utility back (a la Kevin Faulk) and he couldn't handle it".

the fact that he's said about several talented players that they didn't fit his sytem. . .

*shrugs*

instead of trying to use him in a 3rd down back role, why not just use him as your primary ballcarrier in straight-ahead situations like short yardage and goal-line, as well as some of the first and second down running when we go two-TE? if he's dumb and can't master a lot of assignments, then don't give him a lot. . .

faulk is a tremendously savvy vet with about a decade's experience. . . he's received excellent coaching and been developed in his specific role in that offense for years now. . . if hillis is an idiot, you most certainly can't throw him into that and expect him to handle the transition to that role seamlessly. . . particularly when you have him playing on the coverage units AND returning kicks as well!

come on, here's a guy that you yourself have claimed has a learning disability, or whatever-- so who thought it was a good idea to ask him to wear three or four hats right away? why not keep it simple for him initially, let him do what he's already good at and get that production now, while gradually easing him into the other roles you want him to play. . .

i absolutely can't accept that there's not room on the roster for a bull runner who has rushed for a high average every time he's gotten a chance as well as showing great hands. . . i don't care if he can't play special teams right off the bat-- with the number of linebackers, receivers and defensive backs we carry, there's room on the roster for a back who doesn't play special teams *cough*buckhalter*cough*. . .

also, there's this. . . i can't say whether it's true or not, but somebody on the mane posted that mangini and co. run a variant of the earhardt-perkins offense. . . found this (http://bleacherreport.com/articles/389166-will-the-browns-brian-daboll-successfully-implement-the-hybrid-offense), but it's just BR. . . in any case, i'm assuming it most likely has some truth to it, as mangini and OC brian daboll obviously coached in new england. . .

if it's correct, and they're running some variant of the same base scheme we do and getting production out of hillis (they just named him the starter going forward), it kind of blows the idea that hillis didn't fit/couldn't succeed in our offense right out of the water. . .


in any case, as i said earlier, i'm not unduly bent out of shape about it. . . as far as i'm concerned JMFMCD just made a mistake, simple as that. . . everyone else does, and he will again. . . i'm certainly not calling for his head over it. . . i do think his current running game sucks donkey nads, though, and i suspect i'm never much going to care for it. . . we'll see. . . but as long as we're rushing for two stinking pathetic yards a carry and hillis is putting up numbers, it's going to gall me some. . .

[Bosco]

the fact that he's said about several talented players that they didn't fit his sytem. . . Every coach has certain types of players they want to fit their offenses. That certainly isn't something limited to Josh McDaniels, or even Mike Shanahan for that matter. Besides, Brandon Marshall was the only one shipped out because he didn't fit here, and even then, Josh made an honest attempt to keep him here and make it work.


instead of trying to use him in a 3rd down back role, why not just use him as your primary ballcarrier in straight-ahead situations like short yardage and goal-line, as well as some of the first and second down running when we go two-TE? if he's dumb and can't master a lot of assignments, then don't give him a lot. . .

faulk is a tremendously savvy vet with about a decade's experience. . . he's received excellent coaching and been developed in his specific role in that offense for years now. . . if hillis is an idiot, you most certainly can't throw him into that and expect him to handle the transition to that role seamlessly. . . particularly when you have him playing on the coverage units AND returning kicks as well!

come on, here's a guy that you yourself have claimed has a learning disability, or whatever-- so who thought it was a good idea to ask him to wear three or four hats right away? why not keep it simple for him initially, let him do what he's already good at and get that production now, while gradually easing him into the other roles you want him to play. . .

i absolutely can't accept that there's not room on the roster for a bull runner who has rushed for a high average every time he's gotten a chance as well as showing great hands. . . i don't care if he can't play special teams right off the bat-- with the number of linebackers, receivers and defensive backs we carry, there's room on the roster for a back who doesn't play special teams *cough*buckhalter*cough*. . . You're essentially arguing that Josh should handicap himself by keeping a running back who was incapable of working in multiple roles and sets just because he has alot of physical talent?

Sorry, that's just not the way the NFL works these days, much less with Josh McDaniels who has clearly put a premium on intelligence and runs an offense very reliant on flexibility. Not to mention talented running backs are a dime a dozen in the current NFL, making Hillis an easy player to replace.


also, there's this. . . i can't say whether it's true or not, but somebody on the mane posted that mangini and co. run a variant of the earhardt-perkins offense. . . found this (http://bleacherreport.com/articles/389166-will-the-browns-brian-daboll-successfully-implement-the-hybrid-offense), but it's just BR. . . in any case, i'm assuming it most likely has some truth to it, as mangini and OC brian daboll obviously coached in new england. . .

if it's correct, and they're running some variant of the same base scheme we do and getting production out of hillis (they just named him the starter going forward), it kind of blows the idea that hillis didn't fit/couldn't succeed in our offense right out of the water. . . Whoever said that on the Mane was incorrect, and that same theory was talked about here just a couple days ago to which I replied...


Brian Daboll is the Browns OC. He spent a short time as the Patriots receivers coach before moving on to the Jets in 2006 where he was the QB coach under Brian Schottenheimer, who himself was the QB coach in San Diego from 2002 to 2005 where he learned and subsequently adopted a more traditional West Coast Offense. Daboll brought that same offense to Cleveland when Mangini hired him away from New York. The offense Hillis plays in now is much more similar to what he saw in 2008 with Shanahan.

It bears noting that Josh McDaniels does not run the Earhart-Perkins offense. He dumped that for the spread offense when he took over in New England after Weis left. They do retain some trace elements of it (mainly the two and three TE sets used in running and goal line situations) but that is as far as it goes.

Also, Bleacher Report once again has flubbed up some very simple facts regarding this same issue. They're attributing elements of Weis' offense to what McDaniels did in 2005-2008, including everything Wes Welker related.

Shit like that ruins credibility almost instantly.


in any case, as i said earlier, i'm not unduly bent out of shape about it. . . as far as i'm concerned JMFMCD just made a mistake, simple as that. . . everyone else does, and he will again. . . i'm certainly not calling for his head over it. . . i do think his current running game sucks donkey nads, though, and i suspect i'm never much going to care for it. . . we'll see. . . but as long as we're rushing for two stinking pathetic yards a carry and hillis is putting up numbers, it's going to gall me some. . . I think Bronco fans in general need to realize that the running game is quickly becoming an after-thought in the NFL. This is a passing league now and the days of Denver churning out 1000 yard backs out of nobodies is over and they're never coming back. Expectations need to be adjusted accordingly.

[arapaho2]

Not real hard to read between the lines there and see what Josh is saying. Unless you don't want to see it, of course.


yeah we know hillis is stupid...yada yada yada:rolleyes:

meanwhile back in 1-2 land...we shifted our offense to a pbs so we could run the ball...be able to score in the redzone...and pick up those tuff 3rd and shorts

and have failed miserably...when has the bronco team been dead last in the team rushing catogory? the biggest single back game output since josh took over is 113 yards...113 measly yards

you can keep your mcd shades on...keep drinkin his juice...but that fact remains...he has taken what was one of the best rushing offense teams in the league for many years.....and turned it into the worst rushing offense we have ever had...

we switched to a power scheme and got rid of one of the most powerful rbs in the game:confused:....we drafted bigger oline to punch it in in the redzone...and gotten worse

i dont care if you belittle hillis in some childish assinine way to endorse your hero...but the fact remains..i DONT care if hillis is a utter moron...HE CAN RUN THE BALL...HE CAN POWER THROUGH TACKLES...HE CAN GET THE TUFF YARDS...AND SCORE. and if josh couldnt understand that...or find a way to utilize him...maybe you should start checking into his IQ...maybe josh is the moron

[SOCALORADO.]

yeah we know hillis is stupid...yada yada yada:rolleyes:

meanwhile back in 1-2 land...we shifted our offense to a pbs so we could run the ball...be able to score in the redzone...and pick up those tuff 3rd and shorts

and have failed miserably...when has the bronco team been dead last in the team rushing catogory? the biggest single back game output since josh took over is 113 yards...113 measly yards

you can keep your mcd shades on...keep drinkin his juice...but that fact remains...he has taken what was one of the best rushing offense teams in the league for many years.....and turned it into the worst rushing offense we have ever had...

we switched to a power scheme and got rid of one of the most powerful rbs in the game:confused:....we drafted bigger oline to punch it in in the redzone...and gotten worse

i dont care if you belittle hillis in some childish assinine way to endorse your hero...but the fact remains..i DONT care if hillis is a utter moron...HE CAN RUN THE BALL...HE CAN POWER THROUGH TACKLES...HE CAN GET THE TUFF YARDS...AND SCORE. and if josh couldnt understand that...or find a way to utilize him...maybe you should start checking into his IQ...maybe josh is the moron

http://curezone.com/upload/_T_Forums/trapper_s_forum/MoreCowbell.jpg

[dogfish]

You're essentially arguing that Josh should handicap himself by keeping a running back who was incapable of working in multiple roles and sets just because he has alot of physical talent?

come on, do you know how silly this sounds? absofrekingdamnlutely i'm arguing that josh should have kept a guy who can run the ball, considering we don't have any. . . having hillis on the roster right now would be an asset-- as opposed to the way josh has handicapped himself with not one but three RBs who aren't worth a shit. . . but hey, they can all catch! of course, hillis catches better than any of them, so that's not a great argument. . . did you see he has 14 catches so far this year?

also, as i pointed out earlier, keeping one roster spot for a guy who won't play special teams initially is hardly a handicap. . .


Not to mention talented running backs are a dime a dozen in the current NFL, making Hillis an easy player to replace.

you guys keep saying this, yet it rings 100% hollow, because we haven't replaced him. . . until we can run the ball for more than 3 stinking yards a carry, pretty much any and all justifications for letting hillis go are gonna wash right past me, bottom line. . .

seriously, if it's so easy to get guys that can pound the ball against tough defenses, why is it that we have guys who can't even pound it against a weak defense??


Whoever said that on the Mane was incorrect, and that same theory was talked about here just a couple days ago to which I replied...

The offense Hillis plays in now is much more similar to what he saw in 2008 with Shanahan.

It bears noting that Josh McDaniels does not run the Earhart-Perkins offense. He dumped that for the spread offense when he took over in New England after Weis left. They do retain some trace elements of it (mainly the two and three TE sets used in running and goal line situations) but that is as far as it goes.

Also, Bleacher Report once again has flubbed up some very simple facts regarding this same issue. They're attributing elements of Weis' offense to what McDaniels did in 2005-2008, including everything Wes Welker related.

Shit like that ruins credibility almost instantly.

your word against their's with no documentation. . . doesn't matter anyway, even if you can prove that daboll runs a pure west coast, running between the tackles is a basic skillset in any offense. . .


I think Bronco fans in general need to realize that the running game is quickly becoming an after-thought in the NFL. This is a passing league now and the days of Denver churning out 1000 yard backs out of nobodies is over and they're never coming back. Expectations need to be adjusted accordingly.

no offense, but i find the first statement laughable. . . if the running game is an afterthought, why did mcD spend two of his first five picks on a RB and a blocking TE? did you see us trying and failing to hammer it in last week? doesn't look to me like mcD thinks the running game is an afterthought in the red zone. . . did you see arian foster dominate an elite indy team? don't tell him the run game's dead! how about the way baltimore ran new england right out of the playoffs last year? didn't look like an afterthought in that game. . .

i agree completely that the days of us getting good production out of average backs is over-- that's why we need some good ones, and it's why i'm not happy we let one go. . .

and i absolutely refuse to lower my expectations to being okay with one of the worst running games in the league. . . not happening, ever. . . i have lots of expectations of josh. . . i expect him to make a real attempt to play well in ALL phases of the game because that's his job. . . i also expect him to win football games, which we're not doing nearly enough of at the moment, and i expect him to correct the flaws that are preventing us from winning-- like, for example, not being able to run the football. . . i don't need to lower my expectations for the running game-- you and josh need to significantly raise yours. . .

[Lonestar]

Ok here is my take on it from ATL.

Josh saw aneed to improve the QB spot after last year so when the opportunity popped up to get Quinn the guy he really wanted last year instead of Orton for hillis he took it.

Also when Tebow fell into his lap he took it. Neither time aspertions to Orton just wanted to push him and improve the spot.

But then Orton took charge and became a damned fine QB.

Do I think he would have made the same decisions that were made probably not.

We all know that hindsight is better than 20-20.
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[broncofaninfla]

The 104.3 guys asked McDaniels about Hillis and this is roughly what McDaniels said (got as much as I could, typing frantically):

I lost what little respect I had for Mcd on this answer. A power runner doesn't fit a power running scheme? I don't think Mcd has a clue how to mesh an effective running game with his passing offense. On more than one occasion Mcd has mentioned using the specific talents of individual players, why couldn't he do that with Hillis? Now we are stuck with arguably the worst stable of running backs in the league. What used to be our strength under Shanahan is now our blatant weakness under Mcd. Without balance we wither and die. The 3-10 run is testimate to that. Hopefully Andre Brown can do somthing for us because Maloney, No show and knee Buckler damn sure arent getting it done. We faced THE WORST run defense in the league last week and averaged 2 yards a carry, nothing short of pathetic.

[Bosco]

come on, do you know how silly this sounds? absofrekingdamnlutely i'm arguing that josh should have kept a guy who can run the ball, considering we don't have any. . . having hillis on the roster right now would be an asset-- as opposed to the way josh has handicapped himself with not one but three RBs who aren't worth a shit. . . but hey, they can all catch! of course, hillis catches better than any of them, so that's not a great argument. . . did you see he has 14 catches so far this year?

also, as i pointed out earlier, keeping one roster spot for a guy who won't play special teams initially is hardly a handicap. . . While you may be willing to openly admit that you'd hold onto a one dimensional player, most coaches wouldn't do that. I don't think there is much more to be said there honestly.


you guys keep saying this, yet it rings 100% hollow, because we haven't replaced him. . . until we can run the ball for more than 3 stinking yards a carry, pretty much any and all justifications for letting hillis go are gonna wash right past me, bottom line. . .

seriously, if it's so easy to get guys that can pound the ball against tough defenses, why is it that we have guys who can't even pound it against a weak defense?? This argument fails because it doesn't take into account the injuries we're dealing with on the OL or the fact that the guy we got to replace Hillis (LenDale) is on IR and the guy we got to replace him (Maroney) has only played one game here and is still a little dinged up himself.

To assume that Hillis would be successful here in the same situation, when his lone good game to date has come against a rather soft run defense, is frankly the height of absurdity.


no offense, but i find the first statement laughable. . . if the running game is an afterthought, why did mcD spend two of his first five picks on a RB and a blocking TE? Moreno is here because he's an elite talent that fits this offense to a T. Blocking TE's are just as valuable in the passing game as the running game so that really doesn't really work either.

And don't get me wrong, I'm not saying we or anyone else in the NFL are going to be completely abandoning the running game, but it's no longer going to be a focal point of the league. The days of running backs being the backbone of your offense are gone.


and i absolutely refuse to lower my expectations to being okay with one of the worst running games in the league. . . not happening, ever. . . i have lots of expectations of josh. . . i expect him to make a real attempt to play well in ALL phases of the game because that's his job. . . i also expect him to win football games, which we're not doing nearly enough of at the moment, and i expect him to correct the flaws that are preventing us from winning-- like, for example, not being able to run the football. . . i don't need to lower my expectations for the running game-- you and josh need to significantly raise yours. . . Raise our expectations to what exactly? We ran for over 1800 yards last year...even with our OL struggles...which is about overall league average and slightly above average for any team that isn't a clear run first offense.

I'm not sure what more you could honestly be expecting out of the running game in general.

[Bosco]

I don't think Mcd has a clue how to mesh an effective running game with his passing offense. And you'd be wrong. He did it in 2005 with Corey Dillon. He did it again in 2006 with Maroney and the ghost of Dillon and once again in 2007 with Maroney and Sammy Morris. Hell even in 2008 when he didn't have a clear starting running back thanks to Maroney's injury, he managed to turn a platoon of Morris, Kevin Faulk, LaMont Jordan and BenJarvus Green-Ellis into then 6th ranked running game in the league.

Facts, not emotion, my friend.

[Tned]

This argument fails because it doesn't take into account the injuries we're dealing with on the OL or the fact that the guy we got to replace Hillis (LenDale) is on IR and the guy we got to replace him (Maroney) has only played one game here and is still a little dinged up himself.


This is becoming a pet peeve of mine. The claims that White was the replacement and without his injury, we might not be struggling is just ridiculous.

Even if we buy into your premise that White was brought in to replace Hillis, you do realize that White wouldn't have racked up many yards in these first three games while being suspended. Right?

White's injury is a non factor in terms of evaluating how the running game has been the first three weeks.

[Bosco]

This is becoming a pet peeve of mine. The claims that White was the replacement and without his injury, we might not be struggling is just ridiculous.

Even if we buy into your premise that White was brought in to replace Hillis, you do realize that White wouldn't have racked up many yards in these first three games while being suspended. Right?

White's injury is a non factor in terms of evaluating how the running game has been the first three weeks.

He wouldn't have had any effect on the games currently played, correct, but he was still brought in to fill that role and now we won't have him at all this season.

[broncofaninfla]

And you'd be wrong. He did it in 2005 with Corey Dillon. He did it again in 2006 with Maroney and the ghost of Dillon and once again in 2007 with Maroney and Sammy Morris. Hell even in 2008 when he didn't have a clear starting running back thanks to Maroney's injury, he managed to turn a platoon of Morris, Kevin Faulk, LaMont Jordan and BenJarvus Green-Ellis into then 6th ranked running game in the league.

Facts, not emotion, my friend.

Bosco, I've said this a dozen times to you, none of that matters. What matters is his track record here at DENVER. I'm sure there are several New England forums that would love to hear it.

Facts are all things Mcd are holy to you for some reason. I'm guessing you are a New England fan visiting this forum, if I have that wrong, my apologies. I want to love Mcd, I'm a stickler for hard work and a good work ethic and I see that in him BUT he hasn't proven ANYTHING to me with his end results. He clearly seems to be learning the trade at the expense of the franchise I love dearly. Success and winning changes everything, until then I'll call them like I see them. No member on this forum wants to eat crow about Mcd more than me...

[Tned]

He wouldn't have had any effect on the games currently played, correct, but he was still brought in to fill that role and now we won't have him at all this season.

Yes, but you used White's unexpected trip to the IR as an excuse for why the Broncos haven't been able to "pound it against a weak defense".

[Bosco]

Bosco, I've said this a dozen times to you, none of that matters. What matters is his track record here at DENVER. I'm sure there are several New England forums that would love to hear it. And this is where you are wrong. I could see where your feeling might be valid if we were arguing something ambiguous like "McDaniels is a winning coach" or some other statement, but we're not. We're talking specific coaching philosophies and that doesn't roll back to zero when a coach changes cities. You're trying to use an absurdly small sample size to prove your point, and even then it doesn't work.

The simple fact of the matter is that for every year he's been a play caller, he's had, and made use of a legitimate power running game. The degrees of success have varied, but never the philosophy.


Facts are all things Mcd are holy to you for some reason. I'm guessing you are a New England fan visiting this forum, if I have that wrong, my apologies. You're joking right?

[broncofaninfla]

Mcds body of work here at Denver is the only thing that matters to the Broncos. No team is going to roll over in fear based on what Mcd did under Belicheck. The facts are none of Belichecks deciples had success with Belichecks phylosophies outside of NE.

[dogfish]

While you may be willing to openly admit that you'd hold onto a one dimensional player, most coaches wouldn't do that. I don't think there is much more to be said there honestly.

most coaches keep a guy whose only job is to long snap-- the NFL is littered with specialists, situational players, limited players, one-dimensional players, etc. . . every year guys like dexter mccluster get taken high in the draft, even though they'll probably never be full time starters. . . we have correll buckhalter on the roster-- he doesn't play special teams, and i don't believe maroney does either. . . do we need three backs on the roster with identical skill sets?

furthermore, mcD was going to keep lendale-- show me where he's any more versatile than hillis. . . he doesn't catch the ball well out of the backfield, doesn't play any special teams to the best of my knowledge, and isn't anything special in pass pro. . .



To assume that Hillis would be successful here in the same situation, when his lone good game to date has come against a rather soft run defense, is frankly the height of absurdity.

actually, he had both rushing and receiving games of 100+ yards here in denver-- you kinda conveniently forgot that. . . so, three more times than knowshon that he's hit that benchmark despite limited action. . .

and baltimore was a top-five run defense last year and has perennially and consistently been one of the best defeses in football, so i'm going to ignore your attempt to paint them as a "soft" run defense after three games. . . you and i both know we probably couldn't hang fifty yards on them right now. . .



I'm not sure what more you could honestly be expecting out of the running game in general.

what i just said in my last post-- i expect our running game in general to not suck and not be one of the worst in the game. . . very simple and basic expectation, and it's not coming anywhere close to being met right now. . .


edit: last year, the saints finished in the top five in total rushing yards, yards per carry, and rushing TDs-- despite having a wicked passing game. . . that's balance, and it's no surprise that they won the super bowl. . . hell, the jets ran their way to the conference championship. . . the running game is far from obsolete. . .

[Bosco]

Mcds body of work here at Denver is the only thing that matters to the Broncos. So let me get this straight. You think the 19 games Josh has called here in Denver gives you a better idea of the offense he wants to run than the 72 games he called up in New England?

Compelling argument, chap.


The facts are none of Belichecks deciples had success with Belichecks phylosophies outside of NE. Well no need to worry. Josh's "phylosopies" are his own.


we have correll buckhalter on the roster-- he doesn't play special teams, and i don't believe maroney does either. . . do we need three backs on the roster with identical skill sets? Both Maroney and Buckhalter have been pretty serviceable kick returners at one point or another. IIRC Maroney even plays on some kick coverage teams.


furthermore, mcD was going to keep lendale-- show me where he's any more versatile than hillis. . . he doesn't catch the ball well out of the backfield, doesn't play any special teams to the best of my knowledge, and isn't anything special in pass pro. . . LenDale is a decent receiver if you actually use him there. Not as good as Hillis, but he's a much more accomplished runner. I've never paid much attention to his pass pro so I can't comment there.


actually, he had both rushing and receiving games of 100+ yards here in denver-- you kinda conveniently forgot that. . . so, three more times than knowshon that he's hit that benchmark despite limited action. . . No I remember that plenty well. That 100 yard receiving game came against Miami when Shanahan finally let Hillis off the bench. He had a pretty good game there.


and baltimore was a top-five run defense last year and has perennially and consistently been one of the best defeses in football, so i'm going to ignore your attempt to paint them as a "soft" run defense after three games. . . you and i both know we probably couldn't hang fifty yards on them right now. . . We're not talking about the 2009 Ravens defense. This is 2010 now and they're currently ranked 22nd in the league when it comes to stopping the run. They might crank it up here as the season goes on, but right now they're below average.


what i just said in my last post-- i expect our running game in general to not suck and not be one of the worst in the game. . . very simple and basic expectation, and it's not coming anywhere close to being met right now. . . Let everybody, especially our OL, get healthy and then see what happens. Dime to a dollar our running game will get on track pretty quickly.