My thoughts on why the negativity at this point is silly and why our season looks great...

[RunYouOver]

First things first, I wrote this over at Broncos Country where I'm sure there's a LOT more negativity from the fans who post over there, so if anything doesn't really apply here, it's still the way I feel, and I'm not editing my post, so deal with it :P

Second, it's a long post. You'll have to deal with that too, if you care about my opinion. :lol:


I used to love reading all the negativity because it was usually quite comedic; all the what-have-you-done-for-me-lately fans, whose definition of lately goes as far back as the last game, harp on every single negative play that happened, point out all the terrible things that surely await our team, and make outlandish statements about how we can correct these problems immediately. Not surprisingly, these are usually the same type of people who think firing a coach and changing up an entire system would be beneficial to the immediate success of a team. Also not surprisingly, they’re usually the people that don’t understand the bigger picture.

Things like progress, development, and the rest of the schedule don’t mean all that much to them.
I’m getting kind of sick of it now though, after three games this season.

Admittedly, we didn’t look that great against Jacksonville. Then again, it was the first game of the season, on the road in Florida with record heat—and we still quite easily could have won the game. Brandon Lloyd missed that touchdown pass at the end by a few inches on his foot. Game two was perfect, gameplan worked great, got off to a quick start, forced turnovers, capitalized off the forced turnovers, etc. All the while, the media is starting to pick up on the fact that maybe Orton’s a little bit better than middle-of-the-pack. Maybe he’s not elite, but above average may not be a stretch.

Fast forward to this last game, against a Colts team coming off a dominating win, with the best QB in football, with our starting RB injured, one of our starting corners injured, the other not 100%, the offensive line young and banged up, I could go on…

No one really went into the game expecting us to dominate, did they? Hell,
the Colts are a top 5 team, and we were banged up. There were definitely situations where McDaniels might not have had a great play call (Is he really supposed to call 70 flawless plays per game?), and there were situations where Orton made a bad throw that hurt us (the interception). And there were times where both scenarios played out (the fourth down play). But I can’t stand seeing people tear both apart without first realizing there were a TON of situations in this game where great play calling and great execution by Orton got us right back into the game.

Our defense played fantastic in my opinion. We shut down a weak running game better than we were expected to, and we held the Colts out of the end zone on their first couple attempts.

You could say that stats don’t tell the whole story, and so Orton’s high total yards doesn’t prove anything. I’d say you’re wrong. For one, the only way to rack up that kind of yardage is to complete a lot of passes. In the average game, a quarterback could throw TWO different 99 yard touchdown passes, and STILL finish with less yards than Orton did. He completed 65% of his passes, which, by all means is considered great. Of his 35 completions, I’d say maybe FIVE of them were little dump offs. He completed a lot of 5-10 yard passes, 10-20 yard passes…and hello? His bomb to Llyod? That was a perfect throw for someone who apparently can’t throw the ball deep.

And don’t get me started on McD…I liked the fourth down calls. It’s NOT the coaches fault if you can’t get in from the 2 yard line on THREE running plays. And don’t say he ONLY ran the ball when it wasn’t working…he attempted a pass on third down and it didn’t work. There was NOTHING wrong with the goal line play calls there. It was just terrible execution by a miserable running game. The other fourth down call at the end was a good idea, but I would’ve gone with a quick pass expecting pressure, and it didn’t really look like Kyle was totally on board with whatever wound up being called. Chalk that one up to a questionable call, and poor execution. So should we fire McD because of that? After 19 games with a team where he totally reworked the system? Of course not!

I can’t even begin to understand why everyone expects things to happen instantly. Even when they do happen instantly, everyone needs to see it again, or apparently it was just a mirage. Did you guys not see what happened last week? We crushed the Seahawks, who have won both of their other games, including one against the Chargers, who are ALSO 1-2 right now.

I’m convinced we could go out and beat the Titans 49-0, and if we lose to the Ravens by 3, people will be all over Orton and McDaniels again.
In case you haven’t noticed, it’s a similar pattern: the coach and QB always get the blame when something goes wrong. Is it always their fault? Not by a long shot, but that’s who people like to blame. And it’s not fair to throw either of them under the bus after 19 games. We’ve seen the flashes of greatness—we were 6-0 last year. We’ve seen the work in progress (our record since then). A terrible coach would not have all these flashes of greatness, especially not in his first stint as the HC.

I’ve seen plenty out of McDaniels and Orton that leave me confident, if not for this year, definitely for next. Not so coincidentally, when McD was hired, a lot of people were talking about seeing what he could do in THREE years. Funny how quickly people lose sight of that.

Anyway, I’ll end this rant with this:

After this tough stretch we have the Raiders and 49ers, both awful teams. Then the Chiefs (don’t let their 3-0 record fool you, who have they played?), the Chargers (who have not looked impressive at all this year), the Rams, the Chiefs again, the Cardinals (who have been miserable), the Raiders again, the Texans at HOME, and then the Chargers at home. I don’t think 7-3 is unreasonable at all, and I think 8-2 is very possible. Hell, if we get a running game going, we could win all of them.

The point is: the season is far from over, don’t be so quick to assume all of our problems automatically will continue the entire season, and we’ve shown a lot of potential. Whether we realize that potential or not is yet to be determined, but I assure you, unless Orton goes down (and let’s pray that he doesn’t), Tebow will not be starting any games, he may not even play in as many as I had originally thought, and McDaniels will NOT be getting fired. So requesting anything else would just be a waste of tme.


That is all.:cool:

[Buff]

Too long; didn't read. Can I get cliff notes?

[broncobryce]

Good post. Hope you have a fire extinguisher cuz you are about to get flamed
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

[RunYouOver]

Too long; didn't read. Can I get cliff notes?

Kyle Orton's good.

Josh McDaniels is good.

After this tough stretch the rest of our schedule is easy.

Our division is very easily winnable with 9 wins.

Our o-line needs to gain some experience and we need to get healthy, and if we can develop a running game, we'll have a pretty nasty offense.

Tim Tebow is not going to be playing very much at all this year unless Orton goes down.

I think that pretty much covers it. ;)

[ikillz0mbies]

Well said. Anyway, it is early in season and there's plenty of football left. The execution in the end zone was atrocious. However, the rest of the game looked really good with Orton leading the way. He has shown the poise and confidence in the pocket and out of it. The Broncos DO have a tough start to their schedule with games against the Jets, Ravens, and Titans up next.

Now, if the Broncos struggle in the second half of their season that's when I'll get worried. But for now, as long as they put up a hell of a fight against these tough teams and maybe win at least 2 games, I'd call it a success so far because no one would expect the Broncos to win those games anyway. Playoffs are still in reach, no need to panic. If you want to though, go ahead....I'm just saying, 3 games into the season with 2 losses that weren't blow outs, not enough to count the season out.

[broncophan]

thanks for taking the time....but you are stating the obvious here......


Maybe we will be a "good" second half team this season.....and yes....the schedule....at least for now....is def. favorable for us.

[RunYouOver]

thanks for taking the time....but you are stating the obvious here......


Maybe we will be a "good" second half team this season.....and yes....the schedule....at least for now....is def. favorable for us.

Like I said, obvious to you and me...but there are some over at the other forum who sign up just because they see it's the official board...safe to say they know very little about football and are pissed with any loss, and immediately think it's the end of the season.

[MasterShake]

Well said. Anyway, it is early in season and there's plenty of football left. The execution in the end zone was atrocious. However, the rest of the game looked really good with Orton leading the way. He has shown the poise and confidence in the pocket and out of it. The Broncos DO have a tough start to their schedule with games against the Jets, Ravens, and Titans up next.

Now, if the Broncos struggle in the second half of their season that's when I'll get worried. But for now, as long as they put up a hell of a fight against these tough teams and maybe win at least 2 games, I'd call it a success so far because no one would expect the Broncos to win those games anyway. Playoffs are still in reach, no need to panic. If you want to though, go ahead....I'm just saying, 3 games into the season with 2 losses that weren't blow outs, not enough to count the season out.

I'm starting to like our chances against the Jets and Titans, but I don't know about the Ravens. It would be great to be 6-3 going into the bye week, as we can EASILY get 4 wins down the stretch. I have more confidence at 1-2 then I did most of our 3-0 years! :lol:

I don't know what it is, but the positives are really starting to outweigh the negatives on this team for me. Plus after the Jets game, our schedule is shaping up in our favor.

[broncophan]

Like I said, obvious to you and me...but there are some over at the other forum who sign up just because they see it's the official board...safe to say they know very little about football and are pissed with any loss, and immediately think it's the end of the season.

yea.....that is why....I try to stay away from "over there"....

[Northman]

You'll have to deal with that too, if you care about my opinion. :lol:

Not really but i will touch up on some things here since you seemed to have contradicted yourself.



all the what-have-you-done-for-me-lately fans, whose definition of lately goes as far back as the last game, harp on every single negative play that happened, point out all the terrible things that surely await our team, and make outlandish statements about how we can correct these problems immediately. Not surprisingly, these are usually the same type of people who think firing a coach and changing up an entire system would be beneficial to the immediate success of a team. Also not surprisingly, they’re usually the people that don’t understand the bigger picture.Yep, like you they have an opinion. Suck it up big boy.


Things like progress, development, and the rest of the schedule don’t mean all that much to them.
I’m getting kind of sick of it now though, after three games this season.Boo hoo.


Admittedly, we didn’t look that great against Jacksonville. Then again, it was the first game of the season, on the road in Florida with record heat—and we still quite easily could have won the game.Would of, could of, should of, Didnt. It doesnt matter if win by an inch or mile. Winning is winning.


Game two was perfect, gameplan worked great, got off to a quick start, forced turnovers, capitalized off the forced turnovers, etc.

Your kidding? Ive never seen that before in the last 4 years. You mean we had a good game? Really?


All the while, the media is starting to pick up on the fact that maybe Orton’s a little bit better than middle-of-the-pack. Maybe he’s not elite, but above average may not be a stretch.Orton is playing great, no doubt. But the redzone problems are still there and unfortuantely he is part of that problem. Cutler was awesome between the 20's too while he was here.


But I can’t stand seeing people tear both apart without first realizing there were a TON of situations in this game where great play calling and great execution by Orton got us right back into the game.I have yet to see anyone on this board rip Orton for the loss yesterday. Maybe i missed somebody. :confused:


Our defense played fantastic in my opinion. We shut down a weak running game better than we were expected to, and we held the Colts out of the end zone on their first couple attempts.Yes, we shut down a team that doesnt run often and has very little success. WE DOMINATED BABY! WOOHOO!


You could say that stats don’t tell the whole story, and so Orton’s high total yards doesn’t prove anything. I’d say you’re wrong. For one, the only way to rack up that kind of yardage is to complete a lot of passes. In the average game, a quarterback could throw TWO different 99 yard touchdown passes, and STILL finish with less yards than Orton did. He completed 65% of his passes, which, by all means is considered great. Of his 35 completions, I’d say maybe FIVE of them were little dump offs. He completed a lot of 5-10 yard passes, 10-20 yard passes…and hello? His bomb to Llyod? That was a perfect throw for someone who apparently can’t throw the ball deep.Orton was sweet but 0 for 5 in the redzone? Come on. He was supposed to be a QB who was worlds better than the previous guy when it came to the redzone no?


And don’t get me started on McD…I liked the fourth down calls. It’s NOT the coaches fault if you can’t get in from the 2 yard line on THREE running plays. And don’t say he ONLY ran the ball when it wasn’t working…he attempted a pass on third down and it didn’t work. There was NOTHING wrong with the goal line play calls there. It was just terrible execution by a miserable running game. The other fourth down call at the end was a good idea, but I would’ve gone with a quick pass expecting pressure, and it didn’t really look like Kyle was totally on board with whatever wound up being called. Chalk that one up to a questionable call, and poor execution. So should we fire McD because of that? After 19 games with a team where he totally reworked the system? Of course not!I dont blame McD for going for it on the first 4th down. But the second one he should of taken the FG instead of coming away empty and deflating the defense.


I can’t even begin to understand why everyone expects things to happen instantly. Even when they do happen instantly, When you start off a season 6-0 it gives you hope that the team has turned the corner. Its not uncommon for a team to be horrible one year and then have a great year the next. Quick turnarounds can happen pretty easily. We are in year 2 of McD's tenure and after a 8-8 season there are those who feel we should be at the very least competing for the division and a playoff spot. Especially, since Orton is playing "lights out".


I’m convinced we could go out and beat the Titans 49-0, and if we lose to the Ravens by 3, people will be all over Orton and McDaniels again.Of course, its called being a fan. Some of us hate to lose so what can i say im guilty of being pissed when we lose.


In case you haven’t noticed, it’s a similar pattern: the coach and QB always get the blame when something goes wrong.You mean like Shanahan, Reeves, Plummer, Cutler, etc? Yep. Par for the course mate.


We’ve seen the flashes of greatness—we were 6-0 last year. We’ve seen the work in progress (our record since then).Yes, ive seen a flash of greatness for the last 4 years.


I’ve seen plenty out of McDaniels and Orton that leave me confident, if not for this year, definitely for next. Not so coincidentally, when McD was hired, a lot of people were talking about seeing what he could do in THREE years. Funny how quickly people lose sight of that.Im happy your confident, eat a brownie. As for people losing sight of the progress of the team its all in the eye of the beholder. Last i checked, there was never a stipulation on how long McD has to change the team around. It could be just this year or 10 years. However, Bowlen made no bones about it that he was tired of not being in the playoffs and wanting to get back to the SB. Somehow, i dont think the leash is particularly long here. If we cant do better than 8-8 this year that is a step back as far as im concerned.


After this tough stretch we have the Raiders and 49ers, both awful teams. Then the Chiefs (don’t let their 3-0 record fool you, who have they played?),So wait a minute? You mean us losing to the Chiefs and Raiders last year down the stretch (and my god they sucked) in crunch time was a mirage?


the Chargers (who have not looked impressive at all this year), the Rams, the Chiefs again, the Cardinals (who have been miserable), the Raiders again, the Texans at HOME, and then the Chargers at home. I don’t think 7-3 is unreasonable at all, and I think 8-2 is very possible. Hell, if we get a running game going, we could win all of them.Key word: IF

Ill stick with talk is cheap, lets see it translate on the field.


The point is: the season is far from over, don’t be so quick to assume all of our problems automatically will continue the entire season, and we’ve shown a lot of potential.You must be new to the team. Welcome.

Ive seen the potential for the last 4 years yet the end result is the same. So far, ive seen nothing different to change my stance on that.


and McDaniels will NOT be getting fired.And you know this how exactly? Damn, my crystal ball must be broken.

[I Eat Staples]

Kyle Orton's good.

Josh McDaniels is good.

After this tough stretch the rest of our schedule is easy.

Our division is very easily winnable with 9 wins.

Our o-line needs to gain some experience and we need to get healthy, and if we can develop a running game, we'll have a pretty nasty offense.

Tim Tebow is not going to be playing very much at all this year unless Orton goes down.

I think that pretty much covers it. ;)

I agree with everything except the bolded.

I'm liking McD's spread offense more and more but that's about it. His play calling is questionable, otherwise I'd wish he was our offensive coordinator. Hell, I can even live with the play calling, not every coach is going to be perfect at that. I'd take McD as our OC, but he's a terrible head coach because he can't scout talent, he can't draft, and he can't manage personnel.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Great post RYO. With you being an original member of BF, hope you can find the time to post here more often :salute:

[broncophan]

I agree with everything except the bolded.

I'm liking McD's spread offense more and more but that's about it. His play calling is questionable, otherwise I'd wish he was our offensive coordinator. Hell, I can even live with the play calling, not every coach is going to be perfect at that. I'd take McD as our OC, but he's a terrible head coach because he can't scout talent, he can't draft, and he can't manage personnel.

lol.............:lol:....:lol:........what talent did he not scout to your liking????.......he has been here 2 years.....and you already say he can't draft??....:laugh:.......I think he is managing personnel ok.....he didn't want Cutler, Sheff, Marshall,or Hillis....and they are no longer here....that's what he wanted....and he managed that just fine.....last...I checked.....this is his team......so what personnel is he having trouble managing???:coffee:

[honz]

http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/70/whatwhat1.gif

[DenBronx]

You know what, I really hate the diamond shaped endzones.

I think it's jinxing the team.


Maybe changing it back to BRONCOS will solve all of our problems.

[Northman]

You know what, I really hate the diamond shaped endzones.

I think it's jinxing the team.


Maybe that will solve all of our problems.

Maybe they should go with the all blue uniforms.

[MasterShake]

Maybe they should go with the all blue uniforms.

Blue Pants + Orange Jerseys + Striped Socks + Old D Logo Blue Helmet = SUPERBOWL!

[DenBronx]

Maybe they should go with the all blue uniforms.

That too.

At least we was 2-0 in the yellow and brown stripes last year.

[Tempus Fugit]

Like I said, obvious to you and me...but there are some over at the other forum who sign up just because they see it's the official board...safe to say they know very little about football and are pissed with any loss, and immediately think it's the end of the season.

Most boards have a mix of posters and lurkers: Homers/middle group/Haters. In each group are posters with varying degrees of football knowledge.

Denver blew an excellent chance to beat the Colts and go to 2-1 yesterday. Negativity is to be expected, and it's warranted. My gripe is always about negativity without basis, like repeatedly claiming "player x sucks!" with nothing to back it up, etc....

[Nomad]

Too long; didn't read. Can I get cliff notes?

Alot of long winded people around here!!


You know what, I really hate the diamond shaped endzones.

I think it's jinxing the team.


Maybe changing it back to BRONCOS will solve all of our problems.

Didn't watch the Seattle game, did they have the diamonds then??

[LRtagger]

I agree with everything except the bolded.

I'm liking McD's spread offense more and more but that's about it. His play calling is questionable, otherwise I'd wish he was our offensive coordinator. Hell, I can even live with the play calling, not every coach is going to be perfect at that. I'd take McD as our OC, but he's a terrible head coach because he can't scout talent, he can't draft, and he can't manage personnel.

What personel has he had a problem with besides the Cutler/Marshall/Scheddler trio? Correct me if I'm wrong, but the guys that had big games yesterday were all McDaniels acquisitions.

Lloyd is playing incredible football.
As is Orton.
Gaffney is solid.
DT looks to be a stud.
Ayers looks great
Our defensive front as a whole played great football. They are all McD acquisitions except DJ.
Cox looked pretty solid for a rookie going against Peyton. Infinitely times better than Roc and Dwill looked as rookies against him.
The Oline was great in pass protection against two elite pass rushers. Granted Clady is a stud and was not a McD pickup, but Beadles played great as well.

If we can develop the running game, this offense will be elite.


The biggest problem I have is with Redzone playcalling. We spread the field and give Orton options between the 20s, but in the redzone we seem to run tight formations and single-read timing routes for Orton. Where are the 3WR sets where we let Eddie get open from the slot across the middle? Where are the runs from spread formations? Where are the play-action passes in the redzone? Where are the WR screens? Why do we not let DT go out and outjump these average corners we are facing?

This offense is exciting to watch until we get inside the 20, then it looks like last year's offense. Anemic. I have a bigger problem with redzone playcalling than I do with any of the personel moves McD has made.

Our offensive line isn't going to manhandle any defensive line at the one yard line. Why the hell dont we spread the defenders out, at least give them a LOOK that we might throw the ball, and THEN run it. Spread the damn D out and make it a little easier on this young/beatup Oline.

[Lonestar]

good post stick around we need a few more positive posters here.

[DenBronx]

Just want to take the time to say it's good to see both sides of the fence sometimes. That's why I appreciate what every fan/poster brings to the table.

We don't always agree but we should all bleed orange and blue!

[BroncoNut]

I don't know what all the negativity is about but I refuse to let it bring me down. we are 1 and 2, could be worse.

[DenBronx]

Alot of long winded people around here!!



Didn't watch the Seattle game, did they have the diamonds then??



Yes, but I still think it looks silly.


Don't know the story behind it. Anyone know why the diamonds are there? 50th anniversary??? We also had it last year.


Bowlen must be dating a sad decorator on the side.

[BroncoNut]

I like the diamonds for some reason.

[Northman]

Just want to take the time to say it's good to see both sides of the fence sometimes. That's why I appreciate what every fan/poster brings to the table.

We don't always agree but we should all bleed orange and blue!

Absolutely. I love a balanced viewpoint but its important to keep it on the topic of the team and not whether your a "homer" or a "Negative Nancy". Once you start crying about other posters is when it becomes a shitstorm. But i love different viewpoints.

[LRtagger]

Absolutely. I love a balanced viewpoint but its important to keep it on the topic of the team and not whether your a "homer" or a "Negative Nancy". Once you start crying about other posters is when it becomes a shitstorm. But i love different viewpoints.

Come on dude. In this very thread you were pretty sarcastic to a positive poster...telling him to suck it up big boy, eat a brownie, boo hoo, etc. I understand you dont agree with his opinion, but your post was far from a balanced viewpoint.

[Northman]

Come on dude. In this very thread you were pretty sarcastic to a positive poster...telling him to suck it up big boy, eat a brownie, boo hoo, etc. I understand you dont agree with his opinion, but your post was far from a balanced viewpoint.

Oh sure. But a lot of that was in response to complaining about people who have a different viewpoint. MOST of his post was good and talked about what he liked for the team. Had he left it at that and not tried to rip others for not having the same outlook i wouldnt of had a problem with it. Thing is, i cant report it because he didnt use any vulgarity or insults but it doesnt mean that he didnt take a swipe at other fans on these boards.

[LRtagger]

Oh sure. But a lot of that was in response to complaining about people who have a different viewpoint. MOST of his post was good and talked about what he liked for the team. Had he left it at that and not tried to rip others for not having the same outlook i wouldnt of had a problem with it. Thing is, i cant report it because he didnt use any vulgarity or insults but it doesnt mean that he didnt take a swipe at other fans on these boards.

Thats understandable, but in his first post he did put a disclaimer about it. He posted it on another board that seems to be more negative and just wanted to share here.

[arapaho2]

lol.............:lol:....:lol:........what talent did he not scout to your liking????.......he has been here 2 years.....and you already say he can't draft??....:laugh:.......I think he is managing personnel ok.....he didn't want Cutler, Sheff, Marshall,or Hillis....and they are no longer here....that's what he wanted....and he managed that just fine.....last...I checked.....this is his team......so what personnel is he having trouble managing???:coffee:


lets see so... your saying him not wanting the
#1 rated qb in the league
#5th rated wr
#6th rated TE
and a rb that has more yards himself than the entire bronco team....is a good thing....ok:confused:

[RunYouOver]

Thats understandable, but in his first post he did put a disclaimer about it. He posted it on another board that seems to be more negative and just wanted to share here.

That...


Oh sure. But a lot of that was in response to complaining about people who have a different viewpoint. MOST of his post was good and talked about what he liked for the team. Had he left it at that and not tried to rip others for not having the same outlook i wouldnt of had a problem with it. Thing is, i cant report it because he didnt use any vulgarity or insults but it doesnt mean that he didnt take a swipe at other fans on these boards.

And I'm sorry you feel that way, I do. My problem isn't with posters being upset or negative after the game. It was a tough loss. It sucked. You think I wasn't throwing stuff after the failed fourth down play? I'm not the kind of person who refuses to look at something from a negative standpoint, in fact, I'm always pissed about how some things could have done better.

My post was more directed at the kind of posters who (and they are much more prevalent on the other forum than this one, I'm sure) who have no basis for their opinion. Their opinion is due entirely to the end result of last game, and that's all they use to back it up. That part may seem understandable, but it's stuff like Kyle Orton having a great game and praising him, but then seeing him make a bad play and want him off the team.

I totally see both sides on McD, and why some hate him. Personally, I'm a big fan of his. I just can't stand the people who refuse to credit him with anything, and put all the blame for everything on him.

You can be sarcastic all you want with me, he's not getting fired this year, I assure you of that. If he does, I'll be the first one here to tell you how wrong I was. I may not post too often here, but I've been around from the start...I'm not going to run and hide (and if I do, you can find me on the other forum...I'm a mod, so I won't be hiding there ;) ).

I've seen too much promise out of him as a rookie head coach, and I can't be 100% sure, but I'm pretty confident those are the things Bowlen had hoped to see when he hired him. I'm sure he would've rather had us not collapse down the stretch last season, but you don't hire a young coach expecting immediate success. From a business standpoint, it makes no sense to hire a young guy who's going to re-work the entire team into a new system if you don't buy into what he has to say. True, if it turned out to be a disaster, you'd want to cut your losses, but he has by no means been a "disaster" and has, at the very least, shown signs that he CAN be a good coach.

That's why I'm so sure about him not getting fired...Bowlen clearly believed in his ideas when he hired him, and I don't see us going 3-13, 4-12 or anywhere around there, so I'm confident he's back.

Anyway, I love seeing opposing viewpoints too, I love a good football debate. What I hate is an unnecessary football debate, where one side backs up his arguments with facts and logic, and the other side holds firmly on to their baseless opinion.

[LRtagger]

lets see so... your saying him not wanting the
#1 rated qb in the league
#5th rated wr
#6th rated TE
and a rb that has more yards himself than the entire bronco team....is a good thing....ok:confused:

We'll see where Cutler stands after this game, but we have the 7th rated QB in the league and on top of him we got two firsts and a 3rd. I will take that all day.

We have the #2 rated WR on the team.

We don't seem to utilize TEs here.

I don't think Hillis would have the yards behind this Oline. The Browns ran the ball pretty darn well late last year without Hillis. I definitely think we could use him right now, but he didnt work out last year.


Even so, when you look at the big picture (even if you want to cherrypick stats and use only 2/3 games this season), here is what we have:

McD gave up:
#1 rated passer
#5 WR
#6 TE
#10 RB
bunch of defensive scrubs


McD brought in:
#7 rated passer (#2 in the league in yards)
#2 WR
Two first round picks
Two second round picks
One third round pick
Nine new defensive starters (bringing a remarkably better defense)
Good CB depth
Good QB depth
Elite WR depth

He has made some mistakes that get blown out of proportion because everyone is overanalyzing all of his moves after the Cutler and Marshall trades, but I wouldnt call him a failure in the personel dept. He has completly turned over the roster and has put a top tier offense (yards) and an unquestionably better defense on the field with lots of young talent and depth on the roster. It is only a matter of time before it starts to translate into wins (IMO of course).

[tomjonesrocks]

Yes, but I still think it looks silly.


Don't know the story behind it. Anyone know why the diamonds are there? 50th anniversary??? We also had it last year.


Bowlen must be dating a sad decorator on the side.

I agree--think the diamonds are really odd. What IS the deal with them? Don't care if they're "classic" or not--"BRONCOS" needs to be in the endzones...

[BroncoWave]

I like the endzone. It's different and not like every other team.

[Dr Velcro]

Despite all the injuries...

Watching you guys play yesterday...

You have a well-rounded team...

And a coach who needs to learn how to not go for it at the wrong times.

[I Eat Staples]

lol.............:lol:....:lol:........what talent did he not scout to your liking????.......he has been here 2 years.....and you already say he can't draft??....:laugh:.......I think he is managing personnel ok.....he didn't want Cutler, Sheff, Marshall,or Hillis....and they are no longer here....that's what he wanted....and he managed that just fine.....last...I checked.....this is his team......so what personnel is he having trouble managing???:coffee:

Let's start with talent scouting.

Tebow in the first. Terrible, terrible pick. Giving up a 1st for a 2nd to take Alphonso Smith. That's both not understanding the value aspect of the draft, and not knowing how to scout talent. Drafting Richard Quinn. Horrible pick. I won't even criticize him for Moreno because I was high on him at the draft too, but he isn't working out.

Now to personnel management. Trying to trade Cutler for Cassell. Horrible trade, Cassell is one of the worst starting QBs in the NFL. Then he and Cutler both acted like spoiled children. So that's an example of poor talent scouting to think Cassell was good, and an example of poor personnel management for the situation to get so out of hand.

Trading Scheffler. This was made worse by the fact that we traded for Gronkowski, an inferior receiving TE on the same team we traded Scheffler to. It made no sense, McD simply let his emotions get the better of him.

Chasing Nolan away. It's been discussed over and over here. Like McD or not, he doesn't play nicely with others. He couldn't get along with a few players and his DC. Nolan is a fine DC, better than Martindale whether you want to accept that fact or not. McD is young and arrogant, and that isn't always bad, but he's shown that he can't put his emotions to the side for the sake of the team.

I'm fine with the Marshall and Hillis trades. In hindsight, the Hillis trade isn't looking good for us, but not many people expected Hillis to even be a legitimate tailback. We haven't lost any production without Marshall, and we got two 2nd round picks and no longer have to worry about suspensions or stupid penalties from him. These trades made football sense. I have a problem with BS like trying to trade Cutler for Cassell, or trading Scheffler to the Lions only to then trade for Gronkowski. These trades do not make football sense.

The bottom line is, McD has had two very questionable drafts (his first being much worse) and has shown that he can't put his ego aside and get along with players or coaches who could be valuable commodities to us.

[LRtagger]

We'll see where Cutler stands after this game,

Looks like he will not be the #1 rated passer tomorrow.

[rcsodak]

Not really but i will touch up on some things here since you seemed to have contradicted yourself.

And you know this how exactly? Damn, my crystal ball must be broken.

lmao......


....looking at your fellow hi5'ers...you're in quite the crowd.

Congrats on being one of those to which RYO was addressing. :lol:


Welcome to the real world. Where your favorite team doesn't always win. Where they have down years. Where it looks like there's no end in sight. Where, it actually takes intestinal fortitude to continue to back them when times are tough....seeing the good amongst the bad.

It's easy to live in the negativeness of the here-n-now, and glancing back at what-was/what-could-have-been.

It takes something deeper to search out the positives and the future of what-might-be.


This team has improved from week 1 to week 2 to week 3. It's a marathon....NOT a sprint. Just ask San Diego the last few years. It's how you end up, and NOT how you start out.

It's intestinal fortitude.

[Northman]

lmao......


....looking at your fellow hi5'ers...you're in quite the crowd.

Congrats on being one of those to which RYO was addressing. :lol:


Welcome to the real world. Where your favorite team doesn't always win. Where they have down years. Where it looks like there's no end in sight. Where, it actually takes intestinal fortitude to continue to back them when times are tough....seeing the good amongst the bad.

It's easy to live in the negativeness of the here-n-now, and glancing back at what-was/what-could-have-been.

It takes something deeper to search out the positives and the future of what-might-be.


This team has improved from week 1 to week 2 to week 3. It's a marathon....NOT a sprint. Just ask San Diego the last few years. It's how you end up, and NOT how you start out.

It's intestinal fortitude.

Im sorry, did you say something?

[rcsodak]

I agree with everything except the bolded.

I'm liking McD's spread offense more and more but that's about it. His play calling is questionable, otherwise I'd wish he was our offensive coordinator. Hell, I can even live with the play calling, not every coach is going to be perfect at that. I'd take McD as our OC, but he's a terrible head coach because he can't scout talent, he can't draft, and he can't manage personnel.

You do realize Shanny's gone, right? :confused:





















:couch:

[rcsodak]

Maybe they should go with the all blue uniforms.
I say go back to the ugly yellow ones! What was their record wearing them?

I think the D thought they were Pitt!

[I Eat Staples]

You do realize Shanny's gone, right? :confused:





















:couch:

Yeah and we're still wasting 1st round picks.

At least Shanny had Clady.

[rcsodak]

Oh sure. But a lot of that was in response to complaining about people who have a different viewpoint. MOST of his post was good and talked about what he liked for the team. Had he left it at that and not tried to rip others for not having the same outlook i wouldnt of had a problem with it. Thing is, i cant report it because he didnt use any vulgarity or insults but it doesnt mean that he didnt take a swipe at other fans on these boards.

In those infamous words of.....


YOU!

"boo hoo"


There was nothing TO report, which is WHY you didn't report it.

He voiced his opine. You chided it, which you do quite often, btw.

Just man-up and admit it.



Just don't try to be caustic....I've already got that covered. :coffee:

[rcsodak]

Yeah and we're still wasting 1st round picks.

At least Shanny had Clady.

:laugh:

And denver is still stuck with Moss. *drafting*

How many draft picks did he keep from this year's draft? *scouting*

How's the $100mil man doing? *personnel*

Will he EVER hire a good DC? *coaching*

And he has a FEW more years experience than McD has.


In other words, it must not be the easiest job. ;)

[jhildebrand]

36 of 53 players on the GB roster were drafted by Ted Thompson and Mike McCarthy. That is how you truly rebuild in today's NFL. That is why I bitch about the laisezz faire attitude towards our picks.

[Northman]

Looks like he will not be the #1 rated passer tomorrow.

Maybe not, but he will be 3-0 and i would take that anyday.

[Broncos Mtnman]

Maybe not, but he will be 3-0 and i would take that anyday.

QFT!!

:beer:

[broncophan]

lets see so... your saying him not wanting the
#1 rated qb in the league
#5th rated wr
#6th rated TE
and a rb that has more yards himself than the entire bronco team....is a good thing....ok:confused:

Look up all your little rankings you want....I am saying....I am ok with letting him build his team......the one move that I was not happy about was letting Hillis go.......and getting nothing in return.........

[LRtagger]

Maybe not, but he will be 3-0 and i would take that anyday.

Damn I guess we should have traded for Cassel when we had the chance.

Maybe we can trade Orton for Charlie Batch when Ben comes back?

[LRtagger]

Also why werent you on Orton's nuts when he was 3-0, 4-0, 5-0, 6-0 last year?

[ursamajor]

First things first, I wrote this over at Broncos Country where I'm sure there's a LOT more negativity from the fans who post over there, so if anything doesn't really apply here, it's still the way I feel, and I'm not editing my post, so deal with it :P

Second, it's a long post. You'll have to deal with that too, if you care about my opinion. :lol:


I used to love reading all the negativity because it was usually quite comedic; all the what-have-you-done-for-me-lately fans, whose definition of lately goes as far back as the last game, harp on every single negative play that happened, point out all the terrible things that surely await our team, and make outlandish statements about how we can correct these problems immediately. Not surprisingly, these are usually the same type of people who think firing a coach and changing up an entire system would be beneficial to the immediate success of a team. Also not surprisingly, they’re usually the people that don’t understand the bigger picture.

Things like progress, development, and the rest of the schedule don’t mean all that much to them.
I’m getting kind of sick of it now though, after three games this season.

Admittedly, we didn’t look that great against Jacksonville. Then again, it was the first game of the season, on the road in Florida with record heat—and we still quite easily could have won the game. Brandon Lloyd missed that touchdown pass at the end by a few inches on his foot. Game two was perfect, gameplan worked great, got off to a quick start, forced turnovers, capitalized off the forced turnovers, etc. All the while, the media is starting to pick up on the fact that maybe Orton’s a little bit better than middle-of-the-pack. Maybe he’s not elite, but above average may not be a stretch.

Fast forward to this last game, against a Colts team coming off a dominating win, with the best QB in football, with our starting RB injured, one of our starting corners injured, the other not 100%, the offensive line young and banged up, I could go on…

No one really went into the game expecting us to dominate, did they? Hell,
the Colts are a top 5 team, and we were banged up. There were definitely situations where McDaniels might not have had a great play call (Is he really supposed to call 70 flawless plays per game?), and there were situations where Orton made a bad throw that hurt us (the interception). And there were times where both scenarios played out (the fourth down play). But I can’t stand seeing people tear both apart without first realizing there were a TON of situations in this game where great play calling and great execution by Orton got us right back into the game.

Our defense played fantastic in my opinion. We shut down a weak running game better than we were expected to, and we held the Colts out of the end zone on their first couple attempts.

You could say that stats don’t tell the whole story, and so Orton’s high total yards doesn’t prove anything. I’d say you’re wrong. For one, the only way to rack up that kind of yardage is to complete a lot of passes. In the average game, a quarterback could throw TWO different 99 yard touchdown passes, and STILL finish with less yards than Orton did. He completed 65% of his passes, which, by all means is considered great. Of his 35 completions, I’d say maybe FIVE of them were little dump offs. He completed a lot of 5-10 yard passes, 10-20 yard passes…and hello? His bomb to Llyod? That was a perfect throw for someone who apparently can’t throw the ball deep.

And don’t get me started on McD…I liked the fourth down calls. It’s NOT the coaches fault if you can’t get in from the 2 yard line on THREE running plays. And don’t say he ONLY ran the ball when it wasn’t working…he attempted a pass on third down and it didn’t work. There was NOTHING wrong with the goal line play calls there. It was just terrible execution by a miserable running game. The other fourth down call at the end was a good idea, but I would’ve gone with a quick pass expecting pressure, and it didn’t really look like Kyle was totally on board with whatever wound up being called. Chalk that one up to a questionable call, and poor execution. So should we fire McD because of that? After 19 games with a team where he totally reworked the system? Of course not!

I can’t even begin to understand why everyone expects things to happen instantly. Even when they do happen instantly, everyone needs to see it again, or apparently it was just a mirage. Did you guys not see what happened last week? We crushed the Seahawks, who have won both of their other games, including one against the Chargers, who are ALSO 1-2 right now.

I’m convinced we could go out and beat the Titans 49-0, and if we lose to the Ravens by 3, people will be all over Orton and McDaniels again.
In case you haven’t noticed, it’s a similar pattern: the coach and QB always get the blame when something goes wrong. Is it always their fault? Not by a long shot, but that’s who people like to blame. And it’s not fair to throw either of them under the bus after 19 games. We’ve seen the flashes of greatness—we were 6-0 last year. We’ve seen the work in progress (our record since then). A terrible coach would not have all these flashes of greatness, especially not in his first stint as the HC.

I’ve seen plenty out of McDaniels and Orton that leave me confident, if not for this year, definitely for next. Not so coincidentally, when McD was hired, a lot of people were talking about seeing what he could do in THREE years. Funny how quickly people lose sight of that.

Anyway, I’ll end this rant with this:

After this tough stretch we have the Raiders and 49ers, both awful teams. Then the Chiefs (don’t let their 3-0 record fool you, who have they played?), the Chargers (who have not looked impressive at all this year), the Rams, the Chiefs again, the Cardinals (who have been miserable), the Raiders again, the Texans at HOME, and then the Chargers at home. I don’t think 7-3 is unreasonable at all, and I think 8-2 is very possible. Hell, if we get a running game going, we could win all of them.

The point is: the season is far from over, don’t be so quick to assume all of our problems automatically will continue the entire season, and we’ve shown a lot of potential. Whether we realize that potential or not is yet to be determined, but I assure you, unless Orton goes down (and let’s pray that he doesn’t), Tebow will not be starting any games, he may not even play in as many as I had originally thought, and McDaniels will NOT be getting fired. So requesting anything else would just be a waste of tme.


That is all.:cool:

I have a theory about this. It is FF. I honestly think that it is adversely affecting many people's understanding of the game-and how this is a team sport. I don't play FF myself-never have. I just love rooting for my team, and cant pull for any certain player who may be playing against my team.

Just one man's opinion.

[Nomad]

I have a theory about this. It is FF. I honestly think that it is adversely affecting many people's understanding of the game-and how this is a team sport. I don't play FF myself-never have. I just love rooting for my team, and cant pull for any certain player who may be playing against my team.

Just one man's opinion.

I agree with your 'one man's opinion'!!

[MasterShake]

I have a theory about this. It is FF. I honestly think that it is adversely affecting many people's understanding of the game-and how this is a team sport. I don't play FF myself-never have. I just love rooting for my team, and cant pull for any certain player who may be playing against my team.

Just one man's opinion.

Same reason I will never play fantasy football. I like picking at the last second for who I'm gonna root for in non-football games (such as the team that is down at the moment, or the team who is playing a division rival).

[arapaho2]

We'll see where Cutler stands after this game, but we have the 7th rated QB in the league and on top of him we got two firsts and a 3rd. I will take that all day.

We have the #2 rated WR on the team.

We don't seem to utilize TEs here.

I don't think Hillis would have the yards behind this Oline. The Browns ran the ball pretty darn well late last year without Hillis. I definitely think we could use him right now, but he didnt work out last year.


Even so, when you look at the big picture (even if you want to cherrypick stats and use only 2/3 games this season), here is what we have:

McD gave up:
#1 rated passer
#5 WR
#6 TE
#10 RB
bunch of defensive scrubs


McD brought in:
#7 rated passer (#2 in the league in yards)
#2 WR
Two first round picks
Two second round picks
One third round pick
Nine new defensive starters (bringing a remarkably better defense)
Good CB depth
Good QB depth
Elite WR depth

He has made some mistakes that get blown out of proportion because everyone is overanalyzing all of his moves after the Cutler and Marshall trades, but I wouldnt call him a failure in the personel dept. He has completly turned over the roster and has put a top tier offense (yards) and an unquestionably better defense on the field with lots of young talent and depth on the roster. It is only a matter of time before it starts to translate into wins (IMO of course).


i dont think the browns oline is any better than ours...they wanted hillis for a reason and are useing him very well...and he is preforming very well...i have no trouble believeing had not mcd wished to rid himself of fan fav shanny picks...he would be the best back on the team

then i find it weird that your useing draft picks as a accomplishment?...every coach brings in draft picks

but yes he got multiple 1st rounders....which he then traded one to select a cb projected to go in the second or third straight up...a cb that was traded for a 7th round te a year later....he morgaged 2 3rds for a TE that hasnt started and cant crack the lineup with out shitting on the field...a 1st round rb that has a apc of below 3 yards...a 1st rd OLB that has 1 sack since 2009...and morgaged the farm for a qb that by all accounts is a 2-3 year project...if he ever pans out at all

all that and the team is still underachieveing....floundering...and dismal in the red zone

as for top teir offense in yards...all yards and no points was the rally for hate on cutler ...right? we are the 15th team in scoreing..and thats what counts

and you can trivilize hillis as the #10 rb...but again that #10 back has more yards himself than the entire bronco team...

im not getting into a pissing match ...i was only commenting on the poster overjoyed that we shed our selfs of alot of talent

[Northman]

Damn I guess we should have traded for Cassel when we had the chance.

Maybe we can trade Orton for Charlie Batch when Ben comes back?


I would just settle for winning regardless of QB.

[arapaho2]

Look up all your little rankings you want....I am saying....I am ok with letting him build his team......the one move that I was not happy about was letting Hillis go.......and getting nothing in return.........


hard to build a team by letting go of talent

llyod might be getting yards...but he is no marshall

marshall is doubled every single play..llyod is single covered and virtually unknown .....still i think our wrs are gonna compensate very well

scheffler >>>>. gronkowski
hillis>>>broncos stable

[BroncoNut]

what does QFT stand for?

[Ravage!!!]

what does QFT stand for?

Quoted For Truth.

[Ravage!!!]

The offense is looking ok, but it would have been even better had we not let go of some of the most DYNAMIC talent this team has ever seen. Marshall was by far, the best receiver this franchise has EVER had.... period. Trading away Marshall, Scheff, and Hillis was a mistake (I'm not even bringing Cutler into the discussion right now). ALL the offensive weapons we have let go, are producing BIG numbers for their respective teams. Yet somehow, we are better off without them? We are rebuilding by getting RID of young talent, and trying to replace them.

The offense is looking ok. Its obviously not putting up points, and thats the problem. Does it take time, sure. But would it have taken as much time had we NOT dumped all the GOOD players from this offense?? Thats the ONLY point.

We are just going to have to, now, wait LONGER to actually have a scoring offense because we continue to release/trade away the better players. No matter what some want to believe, thats now how you build a good TEAM.

We aren't "bad." Our offense has looked good at times. We just aren't "good." Maybe thats "yet"... maybe thats not.

I guessed the score to be 35-17. Indy didn't score as much as I thought, but then, neither did we. Its a good thing we got them on a bad day... but I'm not thrilled that we have to ask our QB to throw the ball nearly 60 times in a game.

[BigDaddyBronco]

The offense is looking ok, but it would have been even better had we not let go of some of the most DYNAMIC talent this team has ever seen. Marshall was by far, the best receiver this franchise has EVER had.... period. Trading away Marshall, Scheff, and Hillis was a mistake (I'm not even bringing Cutler into the discussion right now). ALL the offensive weapons we have let go, are producing BIG numbers for their respective teams. Yet somehow, we are better off without them? We are rebuilding by getting RID of young talent, and trying to replace them.

The offense is looking ok. Its obviously not putting up points, and thats the problem. Does it take time, sure. But would it have taken as much time had we NOT dumped all the GOOD players from this offense?? Thats the ONLY point.

We are just going to have to, now, wait LONGER to actually have a scoring offense because we continue to release/trade away the better players. No matter what some want to believe, thats now how you build a good TEAM.

We aren't "bad." Our offense has looked good at times. We just aren't "good." Maybe thats "yet"... maybe thats not.

I guessed the score to be 35-17. Indy didn't score as much as I thought, but then, neither did we. Its a good thing we got them on a bad day... but I'm not thrilled that we have to ask our QB to throw the ball nearly 60 times in a game.I think losing Hillis was a mistake. Marshall not so much.

Marshall's production is more than made up with the ability to utilize Gaffney, Lloyd, and Thomas in the passing game. We now have 4 solid WR's with those guys and Royal, and two promising young guys in Willis and Decker. While none of them is at the physical level of Marshall (Thomas might be, hard to say this early), they all have better hands, don't have his injury history (again the rookies have to prove this), nor have any baggage either off the field or on the practice field. Again how many players would it have cost to keep Marshall and his huge contract? I think we are ahead at this point.

Scheffler, good receiving TE. With our WR's, and the fact we use TE's as blockers in the offense, I don't see him as critical. Yes he is better than Gronkowski, but is he worth having as a malcontent in the locker room?

Hillis got booted for not being a good ST player (fumble on KR returns) and failing as a short yardage RB. I think McD screwed up on this. We need power backs as a compliment and he is better than any power back on our roster. Maybe LenDale White would have been that guy, but if you have him why cut him and then figure out that you need the guy and bring in LenDale? We would have been in better injury shape had we had Hillis.

[Ravage!!!]

I think losing Hillis was a mistake. Marshall not so much.

Marshall's production is more than made up with the ability to utilize Gaffney, Lloyd, and Thomas in the passing game. We now have 4 solid WR's with those guys and Royal,
Sorry, I just don't agree. None.. NONE.. of those guys are the playmaker that Marshall is and NONE of them DEMAND the respect that Marshall gets from opposing defenses. Not to mention, there would be no reason that we wouldn't have guys like Gaffney still on the roster if Marshall was still here. Marshall would be making plays and a major threat in the redzone while these guys are just not. That doesnt' make up for the "production" when none are play makers.


and two promising young guys in Willis and Decker. While none of them is at the physical level of Marshall (Thomas might be, hard to say this early), they all have better hands, don't have his injury history (again the rookies have to prove this), nor have any baggage either off the field or on the practice field. Again how many players would it have cost to keep Marshall and his huge contract? I think we are ahead at this point.

Wait.... how many players did you just list that we needed to take the PLACE of Marshall? Not to mention, we used a first round draft pick on a player that McD said "reminded him of Marshall." Plus, every team can only keep 53 players on the roster, and 48 on game day. So how is it that we are saving all this money, or costing us players??? What "big time" talent do we have that we would have had to drop? :confused:

Not to mention, the rookies have shown to be as much of an injury history as Marshall..... and UNTIL any of them can show that they can catch 100 balls a season and make the catches Marshall makes, its silly to say they have better hands. Because I haven't seen a single sign that proves otherwise. So I understand where you are coming from, but there is nothing wrong with Marhall's hands, and I still don't think we get "better" by subtracting talent. Thats just how I see it.


Scheffler, good receiving TE. With our WR's, and the fact we use TE's as blockers in the offense, I don't see him as critical. Yes he is better than Gronkowski, but is he worth having as a malcontent in the locker room?

Again, taking a over-blown quote and holding against some guy doesn't discount the fact that we JUST traded a 1st round CB to get a receiving TE. So I guess our offense needs it "enough."


Hillis got booted for not being a good ST player (fumble on KR returns) and failing as a short yardage RB. I think McD screwed up on this. We need power backs as a compliment and he is better than any power back on our roster. Maybe LenDale White would have been that guy, but if you have him why cut him and then figure out that you need the guy and bring in LenDale? We would have been in better injury shape had we had Hillis.
No one knows why Hillis got booted, but Hillis was the BEST RB we have on the roster.... period.. imo. He's already had ANOTHER 100 yrd rushing game against the Baltimore defense, when we are still waiting for just ONE from a RB on ours.


Let me be clear, though. I'm not going to harp on this. Thats over. I was only responding to posts above. I get that Hillis isn't here, isn't coming back, and neither is Scheff and/or Marshall. But I don't believe that we can simply
accept that we are "rebuilding" when we didn't HAVE to rebuild the things we are because we traded away the best offensive talent on the team. So saying that we are "rebuilding" is only because of a choice by this very coaching staff, and can't be used as an excuse for a lack of anything.

[BigDaddyBronco]

If you don't want to look at the business end of the game, fine. I can't argue with you that Marshall is a better player than any of the players we have. If you want to talk about how the team is better for not spending $47.5 million ($24 million guaranteed) on him, then we have a different discussion.

[Ravage!!!]

If you don't want to look at the business end of the game, fine. I can't argue with you that Marshall is a better player than any of the players we have. If you want to talk about how the team is better for not spending $47.5 million ($24 million guaranteed) on him, then we have a different discussion.

I'm just saying that I don't care that he costs more money. You have to spend more money for quality players. I can't see a top line player on the roster that we would have lost if we signed Marshall.

If we ever want to have top talent, then we will have to spend the money to have/keep them.

A lot of people believe we are 'better off' without him. I'm just not one of them. I don't believe a team gets better by subtracting top, proven, talent and replacing them with lesser, unproven, talent simply because they are cheaper.

[arapaho2]

I'm just saying that I don't care that he costs more money. You have to spend more money for quality players. I can't see a top line player on the roster that we would have lost if we signed Marshall.

If we ever want to have top talent, then we will have to spend the money to have/keep them.

A lot of people believe we are 'better off' without him. I'm just not one of them. I don't believe a team gets better by subtracting top, proven, talent and replacing them with lesser, unproven, talent simply because they are cheaper.

If we keep bleeding talent......we will never be done rebuilding

[Dreadnought]

I think I want to split the difference 'tween you two. I've come to the conclusion that Marshall is a guy we can do without, frankly. I like the idea of a WR corps that spreads the ball around and doesn't have a single guy who demands "touches." Orton is making better decisions IMO with a larger range of targets. Last year he locked in on Marshall way too often for our good, and on top of it Gaffney, Lloyd, et al. are proving to be very sound WR's. As for Hillis and Scheffler? If your system can't figure out a way to use guys with their talents then I think the system is by definition dumb.

[rcsodak]

36 of 53 players on the GB roster were drafted by Ted Thompson and Mike McCarthy. That is how you truly rebuild in today's NFL. That is why I bitch about the laisezz faire attitude towards our picks.
thats what every FO wants. But evidently its easier said than done. Makes me wonder if a shitty team can be found that has a comparable percentage of draftees? *wink*
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[rcsodak]

QFT!!

:beer:
2009?
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[rcsodak]

Also why werent you on Orton's nuts when he was 3-0, 4-0, 5-0, 6-0 last year?
uh.oh.......





:couch:
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[rcsodak]

what does QFT stand for?
quite ******* true
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[broncophan]

I think losing Hillis was a mistake. Marshall not so much.

Marshall's production is more than made up with the ability to utilize Gaffney, Lloyd, and Thomas in the passing game. We now have 4 solid WR's with those guys and Royal, and two promising young guys in Willis and Decker. While none of them is at the physical level of Marshall (Thomas might be, hard to say this early), they all have better hands, don't have his injury history (again the rookies have to prove this), nor have any baggage either off the field or on the practice field. Again how many players would it have cost to keep Marshall and his huge contract? I think we are ahead at this point.

Scheffler, good receiving TE. With our WR's, and the fact we use TE's as blockers in the offense, I don't see him as critical. Yes he is better than Gronkowski, but is he worth having as a malcontent in the locker room?

Hillis got booted for not being a good ST player (fumble on KR returns) and failing as a short yardage RB. I think McD screwed up on this. We need power backs as a compliment and he is better than any power back on our roster. Maybe LenDale White would have been that guy, but if you have him why cut him and then figure out that you need the guy and bring in LenDale? We would have been in better injury shape had we had Hillis.

yea....Didn't they show a stat during the game that the broncos w/r's...as a group are 1st in the league in total yards????....and that was before the colts game.
Losing Marshall is really no big deal......we do need td's though......obviously...when we get in the redzone.

I don't care that we lost Sheff either....he didn't do a whole lot when he was here...and yea....a headcase as well.

[rcsodak]

I'm just saying that I don't care that he costs more money. You have to spend more money for quality players. I can't see a top line player on the roster that we would have lost if we signed Marshall.

If we ever want to have top talent, then we will have to spend the money to have/keep them.

A lot of people believe we are 'better off' without him. I'm just not one of them. I don't believe a team gets better by subtracting top, proven, talent and replacing them with lesser, unproven, talent simply because they are cheaper.
Its all conjecture, but it may have cost the team Doom, Kuper, Champ or Orton. The last thing this team needed was what SD is going thru. Currently, there are ZERO headaches on the team...... Team 1st from here on out works for me.
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[I Eat Staples]

And denver is still stuck with Moss. *drafting*

McD got rid of Shanny's good young players, but kept Moss around for 2 years now. Moss is a black mark on both coaches' names.


How's the $100mil man doing? *personnel*

Shanny didn't bring in Haynesworth in the first place, and Haynesworth just threw a fit because he didn't want to play in a 3-4.


Will he EVER hire a good DC? *coaching*

McD had one and chased him away because he puts his ego above the team.


And he has a FEW more years experience than McD has.

And a few more superbowl rings.

Just because Shanny made mistakes doesn't mean it's acceptable for McD to make the same mistakes, or make other critical mistakes in his own way. We fired Shanny, so we wanted to get better. McD isn't a better coach.

[broncophan]

McD got rid of Shanny's good young players, but kept Moss around for 2 years now. Moss is a black mark on both coaches' names.



Shanny didn't bring in Haynesworth in the first place, and Haynesworth just threw a fit because he didn't want to play in a 3-4.



McD had one and chased him away because he puts his ego above the team.



And a few more superbowl rings.

Just because Shanny made mistakes doesn't mean it's acceptable for McD to make the same mistakes, or make other critical mistakes in his own way. We fired Shanny, so we wanted to get better. McD isn't a better coach.

What does Nolan not being here have to do with McD's ego??

McD got rid of players he didn't want.....McD's team....not Shanahan's..

Every head coach in the league would tell you they have made mistakes......it remains to be seen if McD will be a better coach than Shanahan...not fair to compare a 2nd year head coach to Shanahan....

[I Eat Staples]

What does Nolan not being here have to do with McD's ego??

McD and Nolan had some heated arguments, mainly in the Colts game last year. Obviously they disagreed on some things and probably exchanged hostile words. This happens in the NFL, especially after losses. No one wants to lose, and it's completely fine to express displeasure with any member of the team or coaching staff. But they're both grown men, and they should recognize that they're working together for a common goal. In professional sports, you have to put differences and personal feelings aside and get along with teammates or coaches that give you the best chance of winning.

McD has problems getting along with people, players and coaches both. I have no problem with him being heated and showing his emotion. I have a problem with him letting his emotion cloud his football judgment. Personal feelings can never come before putting the best team and staff together. Nolan was a great DC. McD should have put his ego aside and worked with him.


McD got rid of players he didn't want.....McD's team....not Shanahan's..

Okay? That doesn't mean I have to agree with who he got rid of or who he added.


not fair to compare a 2nd year head coach to Shanahan....

[Lonestar]

thats what every FO wants. But evidently its easier said than done. Makes me wonder if a shitty team can be found that has a comparable percentage of draftees? *wink*
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Off the top of my head the GB cabal has been in place a couple of years longer than Josh has been.

When he reaches that tenure IF he does not measure up to 35 of 53 then we may habe something to whine about. Till then how about we give them a chance.

BTW how many old timers that were drafted before their latest change are still there. Might be the prior guy was good at the draft and just a lousy coach. Unlike what we had here.

I have not followed GB for the past 4-5 years now like I used to. So I'm not sure of the tenure of the GM nor HC although it seems that the GM has been around since holgrem left or nearly so.
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[Traveler]

But I don't believe that we can simply accept that we are "rebuilding" when we didn't HAVE to rebuild the things we are because we traded away the best offensive talent on the team. So saying that we are "rebuilding" is only because of a choice by this very coaching staff, and can't be used as an excuse for a lack of anything.

Why do you think we didn't have to rebuild on offense? We had arguably five or six core players on offense (Cutler, Marshall and Clady, Kuper, and possibly Royal and Harris) that could transfer their physical talents to the fit McDaniels' new scheme when he became HC. We only traded away two of them. I won't include Sheffler or Hillis since they weren't starters.

Everyone else-including Hillis and Scheffler-either didn't fit the needs required or couldn't/wouldn't grasp the new offense. McDaniels isn't a ZBS proponent. Where he erred was in trying to implement a hybrid scheme IMO. Read-trying to adapt his preferred scheme to fit the players on hand.

As he did with the defense, he should have gutted the ZBS from day one.

We won't rehash the Cutler/McD debate. A trade was forced in the end, because Cutler didn't want to be here without guarantees. I think it was by mutual consent the team and Marshall parted ways. No player(s) should try to dictate to a coaching staff. New or old.

So, that leaves McDaniels to try and fit five offensive starters, who were better suited to run the WCO/ZBS, into his PBS.

You still think he didn't have to rebuild?

Our last offense under Shanahan was not a potent as one thinks. While Shanahan was putting some nice pieces together on that side of the ball, he did so at the expense of the other two segments of the team.

I'll have to disagree the offense didn't need to be rebuilt. The offense, defense, and special needed to be scrapped.

While some of the same problems on offense still exist from the previous regime, we are only in year two of the rebuild. Granted, McDaniels has made his share of mistakes, but I'm still willing to give him time to acquire the type of players needed to run his scheme properly.

[Lonestar]

yea....Didn't they show a stat during the game that the broncos w/r's...as a group are 1st in the league in total yards????....and that was before the colts game.
Losing Marshall is really no big deal......we do need td's though......obviously...when we get in the redzone.

I don't care that we lost Sheff either....he didn't do a whole lot when he was here...and yea....a headcase as well.

We have those that are so invested in certain players that when they leave they seem not to have anyone to Identify with.

So they will praise them or bring them up at every chance to show what a dummy Josh is for dumping them while getting a bunch of choices for them.

Thus eliminating the locker room issues and on the field problems that they bring to the table.

Do not understand why folks do not get it.

You can have talent and you can perform on the field but when your going to cause either a MONEY issuse or locker room rift your not going to be here. TEAM trumps head cases.
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[Tempus Fugit]

Marshall's not exactly setting the world on fire down in Miami, so maybe people should get off his nuts until he starts doing that.

Given that he's playing against the Patriots defense this week, that probably means that y'all will only have to wait until after that next game. Until then, though, why not focus on the reality that the Broncos receivers are more than holding their own without Marshall?

[Lonestar]

Why do you think we didn't have to rebuild on offense? We had arguably five or six core players on offense (Cutler, Marshall and Clady, Kuper, and possibly Royal and Harris) that could transfer their physical talents to the fit McDaniels' new scheme when he became HC. We only traded away two of them. I won't include Sheffler or Hillis since they weren't starters.

Everyone else-including Hillis and Scheffler-either didn't fit the needs required or couldn't/wouldn't grasp the new offense. McDaniels isn't a ZBS proponent. Where he erred was in trying to implement a hybrid scheme IMO. Read-trying to adapt his preferred scheme to fit the players on hand.

As he did with the defense, he should have gutted the ZBS from day one.

We won't rehash the Cutler/McD debate. A trade was forced because in the end, because Cutler didn't want to be here without guarantees. I think it was by mutual consent the team and Marshall parted ways. No player(s) should try to dictate to a coaching staff. New or old.

So, that leaves McDaniels to try and fit five offensive starters, who were better suited to run the WCO/ZBS, into his PBS.

You still think he didn't have to rebuild?

Our last offense under Shanahan was not a potent as one thinks. While Shanahan was putting some nice pieces together on that side of the ball, he did so at the expense of the other two segments of the team.

I'll have to disagree the offense didn't need to be rebuilt. The offense, defense, and special needed to be scrapped.

While some of the same problem on offense still exist from the previous regime, we are only in year two of the rebuild. Granted, McDaniels has made his share of mistakes, but I'm still willing to give him time to acquire the type of players needed to run his scheme properly.

Outstanding post.

Let me add the woe is me posts that we could not possibly replace all world marshall why gaffeny and a few other unknown WR's.

Hello folks not only replaced him but kicked ass doing it and if you lump all of the new kids together monetarily. I'm guess we are at about the same or lower value as ONE marshall is getting.

IMHO Josh is taering the TEAM of average players can win posters a new one.

Granted it is early but I suspect it will get much better as the kiddies get to know each other and gather confindence.

The indy game was a huge game for building confidence because we played them toe to toe till that last TD of mannings.

We will be better for it down the road.
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[I Eat Staples]

BMarsh is easily a top 5 WR and the best receiver the Broncos have ever had. However, our offense doesn't need one dominant WR. Marshall was expendable for us. I wish him the best in Miami and I hope he will dominate games down there. He just wasn't that valuable to our offense, which is evident from Orton's production without him.

[Traveler]

Marshall's not exactly setting the world on fire down in Miami, so maybe people should get off his nuts until he starts doing that.

Given that he's playing against the Patriots defense this week, that probably means that y'all will only have to wait until after that next game. Until then, though, why not focus on the reality that the Broncos receivers are more than holding their own without Marshall?

Both Cutler & Marshall seem to be of benefit to their new teams early this season. While Marshall's new team has a bearing on one of our draft choices next year, that 'sthe only interest I have in him. Other than that, F'em both.

[Traveler]

BMarsh is easily a top 5 WR and the best receiver the Broncos have ever had.

I just can't agree with this statement. What are you basing this on? 3 100 catch seasons?

[Tempus Fugit]

Both Cutler & Marshall seem to be of benefit to their new teams early this season. While Marshall's new team has a bearing on one of our draft choices next year, that 'sthe only interest I have in him. Other than that, F'em both.

Don't get me started on Cutler. If the Packers hadn't pissed that game away, Cutler would have been the reason the Bears lost. He also should have had about 3-4 more picks against him in that game, but someone put butter on the hands of the Packers' defenders.

I really despise QBs who aren't money players.

[I Eat Staples]

I just can't agree with this statement. What are you basing this on? 3 100 catch seasons?

That and his raw talent. I've never seen a receiver run like him after the catch.

[arapaho2]

Its all conjecture, but it may have cost the team Doom, Kuper, Champ or Orton. The last thing this team needed was what SD is going thru. Currently, there are ZERO headaches on the team...... Team 1st from here on out works for me.
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in a cap free year it would not have cost us any player unless we refused to pay for talent

in addition we were close to 30 mill under cap last year with a lot of dead money clearing...so no... signing talent like marshall would not have prevented us from keeping other talent

[arapaho2]

Don't get me started on Cutler. If the Packers hadn't pissed that game away, Cutler would have been the reason the Bears lost. He also should have had about 3-4 more picks against him in that game, but someone put butter on the hands of the Packers' defenders.

I really despise QBs who aren't money players.


you mean money like throwing that 4th down pass into the dirt where llyod had zero chance at it...or not putting enough hieght on the endzone pass to thomas as in a jump ball to low

[Denver Native (Carol)]

in a cap free year it would not have cost us any player unless we refused to pay for talent

in addition we were close to 30 mill under cap last year with a lot of dead money clearing...so no... signing talent like marshall would not have prevented us from keeping other talent

In my opinion, Demarius will be as GOOD, or possibly EVEN BETTER, than Marshall, and I am not talking stats, because now, we have one of the best, if not the best, receiving group we have ever had.

[Traveler]

In my opinion, Demarius will be as GOOD, or possibly EVEN BETTER, than Marshall, and I am not talking stats, because now, we have one of the best, if not the best, receiving group we have ever had.

100% agree! This is the first time I can actually say the reserves on our receiving corps could actually be starters on most other teams in the league.

[jhildebrand]

thats what every FO wants. But evidently its easier said than done. Makes me wonder if a shitty team can be found that has a comparable percentage of draftees? *wink*
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Feel free to go search. I can tell you the Chargers had similar numbers with Marty and AJ look where they are now.

[jhildebrand]

Off the top of my head the GB cabal has been in place a couple of years longer than Josh has been.

When he reaches that tenure IF he does not measure up to 35 of 53 then we may habe something to whine about. Till then how about we give them a chance.

Fair enough. However, using lack of time as your argument doesn't really help when in his two draft years here he has been quite frivolous with picks. It becomes quite easy to discern that should that attitude towards picks not change, it doesn't matter how long he is here.

[Northman]

Don't get me started on Cutler. If the Packers hadn't pissed that game away, Cutler would have been the reason the Bears lost. He also should have had about 3-4 more picks against him in that game, but someone put butter on the hands of the Packers' defenders.

I really despise QBs who aren't money players.

3-0 is 3-0. Would of, could of, should of, makes no difference in the NFL. Its all about actually DOING.

[I Eat Staples]

In my opinion, Demarius will be as GOOD, or possibly EVEN BETTER, than Marshall, and I am not talking stats, because now, we have one of the best, if not the best, receiving group we have ever had.


100% agree! This is the first time I can actually say the reserves on our receiving corps could actually be starters on most other teams in the league.

I disagree on DT and Marshall, but time will tell.

I don't think the individual players in our receiving corp are great, it's the group as a whole and our spread offense that make them so effective. Most teams have one star, and then a bunch of scrubs. We have a bunch of average to above average players, and maybe one or two stars in the making. (Royal and DT.)

Also, our offense is all about mixing up different packages and creating mismatches. This makes our receiving corp effective because there's usually at least one guy who gets open.

[broncophan]

I disagree on DT and Marshall, but time will tell.

I don't think the individual players in our receiving corp are great, it's the group as a whole and our spread offense that make them so effective. Most teams have one star, and then a bunch of scrubs. We have a bunch of average to above average players, and maybe one or two stars in the making. (Royal and DT.)

Also, our offense is all about mixing up different packages and creating mismatches. This makes our receiving corp effective because there's usually at least one guy who gets open.

teams we are playing KNOW we can't run the ball......and our receivers/Orton are still racking up the yards......albeit we need td's....but that is what looks promising to me.

[Softskull]

teams we are playing KNOW we can't run the ball......and our receivers/Orton are still racking up the yards......albeit we need td's....but that is what looks promising to me.

I think you're correct, but the last three teams we've played haven't been good defenses. I think we will have a much better gauge of our offense against the Titans this week.

[arapaho2]

In my opinion, Demarius will be as GOOD, or possibly EVEN BETTER, than Marshall, and I am not talking stats, because now, we have one of the best, if not the best, receiving group we have ever had.


thats great to know...except we werent talking about thomas...we were talking about the notion we couldnt sign marshall because then we couldnt afford any other players

as for best wr group...id say no close

smith,easy edd and sharpe are heads and tails better than gaffney, lyod and royal

royal, marshall and scheffler may even be better (08) or at least equal

thomas may be good...he may have potential but he isnt marshall yet

[arapaho2]

teams we are playing KNOW we can't run the ball......and our receivers/Orton are still racking up the yards......albeit we need td's....but that is what looks promising to me.


problem is when it comes down to the best teams beating the best teams in the playoffs...one dimensional teams usually get sent home early

i dont care if we put up scads of passing yards..scores matter

the whole aurgument against cutler was scads of passing yards and little points...sudenly now its a benefit?

[Lonestar]

Fair enough. However, using lack of time as your argument doesn't really help when in his two draft years here he has been quite frivolous with picks. It becomes quite easy to discern that should that attitude towards picks not change, it doesn't matter how long he is here.

IIRC we still have a few players that have been drafted on the squad and the last two drafts IIRC only had a net of two picks released. Out of 12-13 picks. I could be wrong about that but that is what I recall
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[arapaho2]

IIRC we still have a few players that have been drafted on the squad and the last two drafts IIRC only had a net of two picks released. Out of 12-13 picks. I could be wrong about that but that is what I recall
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its not only players released jr..its tradeing the 14th overall pick straight up for a 2nd...then tradeing that player for a guy drafted in the 7th

its useing 2 3rds to get a TE who cant crack the lineup and has been a complete failure

its about useing three picks to get a qb in the 1st round that might not start for years...with a multitude of team needs still hanging

teams like the pats whom joshy wishes to emulate and the steelers/colts know fully the value of picks and draft for success...they dont just casually toss them around like they are meaningless just to get a guy who catches thier fancy

[I Eat Staples]

thats great to know...except we werent talking about thomas...we were talking about the notion we couldnt sign marshall because then we couldnt afford any other players

as for best wr group...id say no close

smith,easy edd and sharpe are heads and tails better than gaffney, lyod and royal

royal, marshall and scheffler may even be better (08) or at least equal

thomas may be good...he may have potential but he isnt marshall yet

Sharpe and Scheffler are TEs.

[Broncos Mtnman]

In my opinion, Demarius will be as GOOD, or possibly EVEN BETTER, than Marshall, and I am not talking stats, because now, we have one of the best, if not the best, receiving group we have ever had.

*cough* Ed McCaffrey *cough* Rod Smith *cough* Shannon Sharpe *cough*

Quite a stretch at this early stage to say that Mickey has anywhere near the talent of that trio of receivers.

:coffee:

[Broncos Mtnman]

Sharpe and Scheffler are TEs.

Sharpe held every RECEIVING record for a TE when he retired.

He is also the 33rd ranked all-time in the NFL for RECEIVING yards.

He even led the team in receiving yards in 1996, ahead of Smith and Eddie.

:coffee:

[I Eat Staples]

Sharpe held every RECEIVING record for a TE when he retired.

He is also the 33rd ranked all-time in the NFL for RECEIVING yards.

He even led the team in receiving yards in 1996, ahead of Smith and Eddie.

:coffee:

Your point? The discussion was about our receiving corp, not our entire passing game. TEs are not included in the receiving corp.

[Broncos Mtnman]

Your point? The discussion was about our receiving corp, not our entire passing game. TEs are not included in the receiving corp.

TEs ARE a part of the receiving corps.

Whatever, the point is that Eddie and Rod are far superior to the hodge-podge group the boy genius has grouped together, and to say that these guys are the best "ever" as was claimed is ridiculous.

Heck, in the 80's, Mark Jackson, Vance Johnson and Steve Watson were a better trio than the Mickey Mouse club we have now.

[jhildebrand]

IIRC we still have a few players that have been drafted on the squad and the last two drafts IIRC only had a net of two picks released. Out of 12-13 picks. I could be wrong about that but that is what I recall
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Fair enough but in those two drafts several picks were used to obtain ONE player. One of those players is no longer here and the other was a "did not play coaches decision." That doesn't bode well. That also is before we account for the trades to grab Syd'quan (a move I like) and Kirlew late this year. What did we give up for an injured Maroney? :confused: I am not writing the book on that deal yet but it didn't start off in grand fashion. You telling me Andre Brown couldn't have accomplished as much as Maroney? :confused:

I will continue to hound on this issue as long as it continues to be a problem. This team NEEDS every draft pick it has and or can get!!!!

[rcsodak]

McD got rid of Shanny's good young players, but kept Moss around for 2 years now. Moss is a black mark on both coaches' names. What....and give ya'll reason MORE to yell "he's getting rid of all of shanny's players!!!!!"?


Shanny didn't bring in Haynesworth in the first place, and Haynesworth just threw a fit because he didn't want to play in a 3-4. No, but some say he's dealt poorly with the situation. Currently, he's being paid BIG bucks and not producing. He could have dealt him but chose not to.


McD had one and chased him away because he puts his ego above the team. Think this has been proven otherwise, but keep repeating it if it makes you feel better. I know I won't miss the 170+yds the D was giving up late last year.


And a few more superbowl rings. Wow. Does that somehow correct all the wrongs he's done over the last decade?


Just because Shanny made mistakes doesn't mean it's acceptable for McD to make the same mistakes, or make other critical mistakes in his own way. We fired Shanny, so we wanted to get better. McD isn't a better coach. Every coach is different, and yet, the same. Most will try to bring their scheme with them. They're used to it, and it got them in the door in the first place. Shanny implemented his ZBS. Hows that working out for them? He brought in 'his QB'. How's that working out for him? How many of his draft picks made the squad?

Mcd is in his 2nd year. Frankly, saying he's a shitty coach/personnel man is growing old and losing the little luster it started out with. He wasn't lucky enough to take over a SB team, like Tomlin was. He's made mistakes, but isn't afraid to acknowledge them, and try to rectify them before they compound. That alone shows he's willing to listen/learn..something Shanny STILL hasn't done by the looks of it.

[Dzone]

Nobody would argue that the chiefs were in a FAR worse condition that this team in 2009...but smart drafting and smart coaching hires is now paying off and the chiefs look like they are on the upswing while the broncos are, well 1-2 and looking like they cant figure out how to put the ball over the goal line.

[Broncos Mtnman]

Nobody would argue that the chiefs were in a FAR worse condition that this team in 2009...but smart drafting and smart coaching hires is now paying off and the chiefs look like they are on the upswing while the broncos are, well 1-2 and looking like they cant figure out how to put the ball over the goal line.

Time will tell, but it looks like perhaps Mickey Mouse was nothing more than a yes man in NE. The coaches really responsible for the Patsies success are working in KC.

[Ravage!!!]

Our receiving corp isn't better without Marshall. Marshall demands attention, WHICh would absolutely create single coverage on someone else. Marshall wasn't "demanding" balls, he was simply open..... which is what you want your WRs to be. He could get open and catch the ball no matter who was covering, how many were covering him, and even after catchign 21 balls and EVERY PLAYER/Person/spectator/coach KNEW he was going to have the ball thrown to him... he would still get open and catch the 22nd. Marshall has the ability to LITERALLY take over a game, which he has shown to do. No way the OTHER WRs on the roster don't benefit from having that kind of presence on the field with them.

Marshall very well may be a top TWO WR in the NFL, and not just a top 5. The guy is a beast, and if you didn't watch the games this week then you wouldn't see how he's doing the same things in Miami as he did here. Dominating DBs.

TE are ABSOLUTELY counted and a part of the receiving corp. That is, unless you are looking back in the '70s. Anyone that has watched the Colts, Chargers, Saints, Packers, Falcons or Jets this last week (alone) can easily see this. TEs have been a major part of the receiving corp for the last 25 years.

Scheffler was a starter, and I think someone made a great point. If your system doesn't use the talents of a Scheffler and a Hillis on your team, then you need to find a way to add to your system. If our "system" didn't need a pass catchign TE, we wouldn't have traded away for a 7th round pass catching TE because we didn't have one on the roster. Was a dumb mistake that weakened our team.

Someone tried to say that our team was better off without Marshall because this system is about making mis-matches. Whats better about making up mis-matches than having a dominating WR and a TE that gives LBs fits? That literally is what makes mis-matches.

[Dzone]

when a coach gets rid of two HUGE Fan favorites in Scheffler and Hillis, who go on to start and excel for other teams, then he should be criticized...People cheer for a team because of specific players, not just a team. Mcd just slaps fans in the face with his arrogance...a losing season this year(God forbid) is totally and utterly inexcusable.

[broncophan]

problem is when it comes down to the best teams beating the best teams in the playoffs...one dimensional teams usually get sent home early

i dont care if we put up scads of passing yards..scores matter

the whole aurgument against cutler was scads of passing yards and little points...sudenly now its a benefit?

no.....it is not a benefit....I have said a couple different times.....when Orton throws for 472 yards....there is something seriously wrong with our offense.............was the same thing with crybaby Cutler.

[Elevation inc]

its clear now some people just wont stop bitching untill we go 14-2 and win a SB again...thats just how it is...time to move on and hope for the best......

[Elevation inc]

Our receiving corp isn't better without Marshall. Marshall demands attention, WHICh would absolutely create single coverage on someone else. Marshall wasn't "demanding" balls, he was simply open..... which is what you want your WRs to be. He could get open and catch the ball no matter who was covering, how many were covering him, and even after catchign 21 balls and EVERY PLAYER/Person/spectator/coach KNEW he was going to have the ball thrown to him... he would still get open and catch the 22nd. Marshall has the ability to LITERALLY take over a game, which he has shown to do. No way the OTHER WRs on the roster don't benefit from having that kind of presence on the field with them.

Marshall very well may be a top TWO WR in the NFL, and not just a top 5. The guy is a beast, and if you didn't watch the games this week then you wouldn't see how he's doing the same things in Miami as he did here. Dominating DBs.

TE are ABSOLUTELY counted and a part of the receiving corp. That is, unless you are looking back in the '70s. Anyone that has watched the Colts, Chargers, Saints, Packers, Falcons or Jets this last week (alone) can easily see this. TEs have been a major part of the receiving corp for the last 25 years.

Scheffler was a starter, and I think someone made a great point. If your system doesn't use the talents of a Scheffler and a Hillis on your team, then you need to find a way to add to your system. If our "system" didn't need a pass catchign TE, we wouldn't have traded away for a 7th round pass catching TE because we didn't have one on the roster. Was a dumb mistake that weakened our team.

Someone tried to say that our team was better off without Marshall because this system is about making mis-matches. Whats better about making up mis-matches than having a dominating WR and a TE that gives LBs fits? That literally is what makes mis-matches.


lo you do know that the first first play DT lined up against the colts he was double teamed with safety help over the top..seems a rookie can draw doubles just like marshall...do you also know on lloyds TD he was double teamed and blew by both.....we dont need marshall here, its just how it is....deal and move on...probally better that way....Lloyd is rated #2 in the NFL right now not your boy marshall.......we have the #1 rated wr core in the league for a reason.....deal and move on probally best that way.


the only player let go by MCd that should probally still be here and would contribute in high capacity over what we have is hillis, but for whatever reasons he isnt, probally best to move on since they aint coming back......


WERE DOING JUST FINE WITHOUT MARSHALL.....BREAKING RECORDS AND WHAT NOT WITHOUT HIM AND SHARING THE BALL.......

http://blogs.denverpost.com/broncos/2010/09/28/broncos-wrs-make-nfl-history/5387/

[Lonestar]

Fair enough but in those two drafts several picks were used to obtain ONE player. One of those players is no longer here and the other was a "did not play coaches decision." That doesn't bode well. That also is before we account for the trades to grab Syd'quan (a move I like) and Kirlew late this year. What did we give up for an injured Maroney? :confused: I am not writing the book on that deal yet but it didn't start off in grand fashion. You telling me Andre Brown couldn't have accomplished as much as Maroney? :confused:

I will continue to hound on this issue as long as it continues to be a problem. This team NEEDS every draft pick it has and or can get!!!!
FWIW he has worked the draft to pick up extra picks also.

So as I see it your bitter that each and every original picks are not on the TEAM yet is that correct?

Just think your expectations are a tad to high.

As I'm sure that in the GB example your using they also have made mistakes in chosing folks and have cut or traded said draftees also.

I'm not going to sweat the small stuff like you seem to do.

So far I see a huge improvement in the draft process in DEN considering the track record we have had going back to day one.

If you wish to, go for it. Not worth my time.

Reaching perfection in guessing correctly every time is not going to happen. As much as you want.

Time to mive on and embrace Josh IMO.
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[Lonestar]

lo you do know that the first first play DT lined up against the colts he was double teamed with safety help over the top..seems a rookie can draw doubles just like marshall...do you also know on lloyds TD he was double teamed and blew by both.....we dont need marshall here, its just how it is....deal and move on...probally better that way....Lloyd is rated #2 in the NFL right now not your boy marshall.......we have the #1 rated wr core in the league for a reason.....deal and move on probally best that way.


the only player let go by MCd that should probally still be here and would contribute in high capacity over what we have is hillis, but for whatever reasons he isnt, probally best to move on since they aint coming back......


WERE DOING JUST FINE WITHOUT MARSHALL.....BREAKING RECORDS AND WHAT NOT WITHOUT HIM AND SHARING THE BALL.......

http://blogs.denverpost.com/broncos/2010/09/28/broncos-wrs-make-nfl-history/5387/

Good post thanks for it.

Nice to have record setting WR IF they are not a detirement to the TEAM.

Which marshall was same goes for scheffler.

I hope they both go on to productive careers and wish them well. But wish the fans here would get over it as they did not want to play here in front of #6 fans.

Period they were not happy here and I'm guessing did not see the merits of playing for the TEAM concept.

Now they are HOPE happy playing close to home.
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[Dirk]

Who are these guys? Marshall, Cutler, Hillis, Scheffler? They aren't on the Broncos roster, so I guess they must play for some other team.

[Elevation inc]

Good post thanks for it.

Nice to have record setting WR IF they are not a detirement to the TEAM.

Which marshall was same goes for scheffler.

I hope they both go on to productive careers and wish them well. But wish the fans here would get over it as they did not want to play here in front of #6 fans.

Period they were not happy here and I'm guessing did not see the merits of playing for the TEAM concept.

Now they are HOPE happy playing close to home.
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i like marshall even made sure i got him on my fantasy team this year, but the comments about how we cant do without him are hilarious, we have the top Wr core in the legaue, and lloyd is very conistent now going on 5 games.....i have never seen marshall blow by defenders like llyod is doing or make the catches he is doing, thats just not who he was...marshall is a physical YAC guy.....every Wr we have is involved and making plays we need that far more than just having marshall on this team....teams cant just get on 1 guy now they have to worry about 4 Wr's now who are outeprforming some teams supposed numebr 1 guy......not every team needs a marshall and we are proving that theory in bunches......miami is doing well with him, but he is still dropping the ball there as well......


the 1 thing fans shouldnt be bithcing about on this team is missing marshall because we dont have a good wr core......we have the top one in the NFL right now.....

[Elevation inc]

Who are these guys? Marshall, Cutler, Hillis, Scheffler? They aren't on the Broncos roster, so I guess they must play for some other team.

i miss hillis a bit, but not the other 3.....not right now.....sheffler doesnt even start for the lions all the time.....he has 14 catches for 108 yds at 7.7 per pop.....we have Wr's he aint better than beating those stats in fact 4 of them to be exact, where would he fit in???.....its been reported by plenty of people teams are stacking the middle against us in the redzone so its not like sheffler will have more room then lloyd, DT, gaffney or royal......


marshall is no better than lloyd right now and still has a case of the drops....its not like we need marshall to draw a double team because DT did that on his first play from scrimmage against the colts...and teams are doubling lloyd and still cant stop him..and we have 4 Wr's so teams cant just key on marshall and stop him like they did last year. we get our run game up this o is deadly period.....thats all this team needs is some time for the OL to get it down....cutler and orton are playing much better this year so its not like we really need 1 or the other.....

really the only guy we could use is hillis....because as someone stated hillis scores from the 1 against indy he just does, and anybody that doesnt believe that is kidding themselves.....i have no problem with josh feeling he didnt fit here, but i have no doubt in my mind josh isnt wondering if hillis could have gotten the job done......while are number 2 Qb sits the bench....becasue i no i sure as hell am wondering what hillis could do for our run game right now....dude can drag people even if there arent any holes....i do belive though knowshon would have scored where maroney failed......moreno knows how to go airborn and use his athleticism and he would have there...kinda sucked not having him......the goalline back i really miss is mike bell, remember in 2006 what he did to indy, that was beautiful.....

[arapaho2]

FWIW he has worked the draft to pick up extra picks also.

So as I see it your bitter that each and every original picks are not on the TEAM yet is that correct?

Just think your expectations are a tad to high.

As I'm sure that in the GB example your using they also have made mistakes in chosing folks and have cut or traded said draftees also.

I'm not going to sweat the small stuff like you seem to do.

So far I see a huge improvement in the draft process in DEN considering the track record we have had going back to day one.

If you wish to, go for it. Not worth my time.

Reaching perfection in guessing correctly every time is not going to happen. As much as you want.

Time to mive on and embrace Josh IMO.
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he did work the draft to obtain extra picks..then blew the wad moving back up to the 1st round ...we had two natual 1st round picks the 12th and 14th....if he didnt sqaunder the 14th for a cb whom he traded for a guy picked in the 7th round ...then all the picks aquired for moving down could have been used on positions of need and not used to get another 1st to replace the one he wasted

[Ravage!!!]

FWIW he has worked the draft to pick up extra picks also.

So as I see it your bitter that each and every original picks are not on the TEAM yet is that correct?

Just think your expectations are a tad to high.

As I'm sure that in the GB example your using they also have made mistakes in chosing folks and have cut or traded said draftees also.

I'm not going to sweat the small stuff like you seem to do.

So far I see a huge improvement in the draft process in DEN considering the track record we have had going back to day one.

If you wish to, go for it. Not worth my time.

Reaching perfection in guessing correctly every time is not going to happen. As much as you want.

Time to mive on and embrace Josh IMO.
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This coming from the person that said all 1st round draft picks should not only start their first year, but should be pro-bowlers by their second.

THis coming from the guy that said that ANY WR drafted SHOULD end up better than Rod Smith..... after all, he wasn't even drafted.

This from the guy that said 1st round RBs should absolutely be better than TD.

Amazing.

[Northman]

its clear now some people just wont stop bitching untill we go 14-2 and win a SB again...thats just how it is...time to move on and hope for the best......

Hell, just give me a division title and a playoff spot and i call it progress. :lol:

[MasterShake]

Hell, just give me a division title and a playoff spot and i call it progress. :lol:

Same here. I'd be thrilled with a wild card at this point!

[Softskull]

Same here. I'd be thrilled with a wild card at this point!

Hell, I'd take a winning season.

[I Eat Staples]

TEs ARE a part of the receiving corps.

They aren't receivers, this discussion was about our receivers, not TEs.


Whatever, the point is that Eddie and Rod are far superior to the hodge-podge group the boy genius has grouped together, and to say that these guys are the best "ever" as was claimed is ridiculous.

Comparing based on stats alone isn't fair to the older players because it's a different NFL now. I like what I see from our receiving corp so far, but no I wouldn't say they're the best of all time. Maybe one day, who knows.


What....and give ya'll reason MORE to yell "he's getting rid of all of shanny's players!!!!!"?

Moss was one of Shanny's players that he should have gotten rid of. It shouldn't be about McD's players vs Shanny's players, it should be good ones vs bad ones. He got rid of good ones and kept Moss, who's a bad one. I don't care who drafted the player, if he's good he should stay, if he's bad he should go.


No, but some say he's dealt poorly with the situation. Currently, he's being paid BIG bucks and not producing. He could have dealt him but chose not to.

I don't know how he's handling it, but I do know Haynesworth is handling it like a child. I'm sure it's a combination of both of them handling it poorly, which is far too common from players and coaches getting paid millions of dollars. And if he deals him, Haynesworth still has to be paid his guaranteed money I believe.


Think this has been proven otherwise, but keep repeating it if it makes you feel better. I know I won't miss the 170+yds the D was giving up late last year.

If Nolan is the sole reason for our problems down the stretch, then he's also the sole reason for our 6-0 start. Realistically, he contributed to both, but was not the only reason. We're still having the same major problem on D this year, getting off the field on 3rd downs. Regardless of how you slice it, Nolan is a proven commodity as a DC, and Martindale is not.


Wow. Does that somehow correct all the wrongs he's done over the last decade?

No, but does McD having just 2 years of experience correct all the wrongs he's already done in those 2 years?


Every coach is different, and yet, the same. Most will try to bring their scheme with them. They're used to it, and it got them in the door in the first place. Shanny implemented his ZBS. Hows that working out for them? He brought in 'his QB'. How's that working out for him? How many of his draft picks made the squad?

Are you talking about the Redskins? Or his time with Denver?


Mcd is in his 2nd year. Frankly, saying he's a shitty coach/personnel man is growing old and losing the little luster it started out with. He wasn't lucky enough to take over a SB team, like Tomlin was. He's made mistakes, but isn't afraid to acknowledge them, and try to rectify them before they compound. That alone shows he's willing to listen/learn..something Shanny STILL hasn't done by the looks of it.

Actually, I don't see him acknowledging his mistakes, and he certainly compounded the problem of the Smith pick by trading him for absolutely nothing.


its clear now some people just wont stop bitching untill we go 14-2 and win a SB again...thats just how it is...time to move on and hope for the best......

I'd settle for 9-7 and a playoff appearance as a start.

[Elevation inc]

They aren't receivers, this discussion was about our receivers, not TEs.



Comparing based on stats alone isn't fair to the older players because it's a different NFL now. I like what I see from our receiving corp so far, but no I wouldn't say they're the best of all time. Maybe one day, who knows.



Moss was one of Shanny's players that he should have gotten rid of. It shouldn't be about McD's players vs Shanny's players, it should be good ones vs bad ones. He got rid of good ones and kept Moss, who's a bad one. I don't care who drafted the player, if he's good he should stay, if he's bad he should go.



I don't know how he's handling it, but I do know Haynesworth is handling it like a child. I'm sure it's a combination of both of them handling it poorly, which is far too common from players and coaches getting paid millions of dollars. And if he deals him, Haynesworth still has to be paid his guaranteed money I believe.



If Nolan is the sole reason for our problems down the stretch, then he's also the sole reason for our 6-0 start. Realistically, he contributed to both, but was not the only reason. We're still having the same major problem on D this year, getting off the field on 3rd downs. Regardless of how you slice it, Nolan is a proven commodity as a DC, and Martindale is not.



No, but does McD having just 2 years of experience correct all the wrongs he's already done in those 2 years?



Are you talking about the Redskins? Or his time with Denver?



Actually, I don't see him acknowledging his mistakes, and he certainly compounded the problem of the Smith pick by trading him for absolutely nothing.



I'd settle for 9-7 and a playoff appearance as a start.


I'm still thinking 9-7 is very realistic......but losing 2 AFC games could bite us at seasons end when it comes to Tiebreakers if we arent battling for division but a wildcard spot.....if that were to happen it would suck but if we finsihed the season relatively strong i would consider that a pretty good improvement since the last 3 years we have tanked our final games......

[Elevation inc]

Hell, I'd take a winning season.

i just wanna finish strong for a change, instead of choking away after our bye for the last 4 years......if we were to finish 8-8 but won our last five in a row or at the very least were fighting it hard till the very end i would consider that a improvement even with a rough record.....we go powderpuff to close the season though???? it may just be time for some new blood...because thats eventually a coaching thing(as we saw with shanny 3 years in a row)....

[Lonestar]

This coming from the person that said all 1st round draft picks should not only start their first year, but should be pro-bowlers by their second.

THis coming from the guy that said that ANY WR drafted SHOULD end up better than Rod Smith..... after all, he wasn't even drafted.

This from the guy that said 1st round RBs should absolutely be better than TD.

Amazing.

Perhaps I have moderated my ideas since. What were those quotes like 2004.

Personally today I would never ever draft a WR in any round because they are most likely not going to produce enuff in the first 2 year to justify them.

Now I know that there exceptions to that rule about once a year. But more often than not WR don't earn their keep until year 3 and then you have to resign them at monster contracts to keep them.

Think I'd rather poach them from other teams. Pay the money up front with them and you know what your getting for sure.

As for 1st rounder yes overall they should be starters in the rookie season or be groomed to start after the vet they are drafted to replace hangs them up.

If they are a high enuff pick I see no reason they should not be pro bowl caliber. We are not talking late 1st rounders here but unless you have to draft a positsion high in the first UNDER 15 or so yes I believe that they should be that caliber.

I guess I'm surprised that you remebered.

But thanks for letting me clarify my thoughts on it.
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[KCL]

JR..Not sure why you say you would never draft a WR in any round...McCluster is doing pretty well in Kansas City...of course we're all entitled to our opinions...:D

[Lonestar]

JR..Not sure why you say you would never draft a WR in any round...McCluster is doing pretty well in Kansas City...of course we're all entitled to our opinions...:D

As I said there are exceptions to the rule but it is rare for a WR to put up huge numbers till mid to end year 2. Most are year three and WR are for the most part head cases.

I'd rather go after them as FA and pay for it rather than go through 15 of them to get a keeper. Would not waste a draft choice on them, UDFA sure as your not wasting a pick.
Just have seen way to many wastes in the past. Would rather take a chance on a postion of need.

Now DT and decker may be exception also. I like them a lot but I would not have drafted them. I would have paid the price for bouldin. You know what your getting. I would have never went after marshall for many already stated reasons.

I hold Champ can take mc cluster out oif the game.
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[Lonestar]

JR..Not sure why you say you would never draft a WR in any round...McCluster is doing pretty well in Kansas City...of course we're all entitled to our opinions...:D

MAybe it was just the last GM that screwed the pooch on WR's but none of the 14 or so they drafted were worth a damn in the long run.

Every single one of them head cases. NO exceptions that I can think of. TE might even fall into the category also.

I'd rather pay extra for them than baby them along only to have them come back and bite you in the ass IF they make the BIGS.

Maybe the new criteria of looking for more than just "talent" will work out. But as it stands NOW IF I were GM I would not take the chance/waste teh draft choices when I could be finding other players for positions of need as BAck up or future starters..

[KCL]

MAybe it was just the last GM that screwed the pooch on WR's but none of the 14 or so they drafted were worth a damn in the long run.

Every single one of them head cases. NO exceptions that I can think of. TE might even fall into the category also.

I'd rather pay extra for them than baby them along only to have them come back and bite you in the ass IF they make the BIGS.

Maybe the new criteria of looking for more than just "talent" will work out. But as it stands NOW IF I were GM I would not take the chance/waste teh draft choices when I could be finding other players for positions of need as BAck up or future starters..

Are you talking about the Chiefs or the Broncos here? I am thinking the Broncos as Bowe isn't a headcase and our TE certainly wasn't or is the rookie TE we have now.

[Lonestar]

Are you talking about the Chiefs or the Broncos here? I am thinking the Broncos as Bowe isn't a headcase and our TE certainly wasn't or is the rookie TE we have now.

I'm talking in General most WR's do not pan out till mid part of year 2. Then they quickly become head cases. and are in general PITA's.

I know tht every year one maybe two wr's blossom as rookies but it is rare enuff for me I would rather use my choices on other positions.

I'd go after existing WR's in FA as you have a better scouting base than someone playing in the WAC opposed to SEC.

I'd rather pay more for a proven player than a potential head case.

[I Eat Staples]

Personally today I would never ever draft a WR in any round because they are most likely not going to produce enuff in the first 2 year to justify them.

That's far from true. I would never draft a receiver in the first round, though, because you don't need a dominant receiver to be a winning team.


As for 1st rounder yes overall they should be starters in the rookie season or be groomed to start after the vet they are drafted to replace hangs them up.

Agreed, which is why Tebow should have never been a first round pick.


McCluster is doing pretty well in Kansas City

On special teams. :coffee:

[KCL]

On special teams. :coffee:

You have a problem with that? He did well in the 49ers game also..:coffee:

[I Eat Staples]

You have a problem with that? He did well in the 49ers game also..:coffee:

No I don't have a problem, just saying. :confused:

[KCL]

No I don't have a problem, just saying. :confused:

Good because you shouldn't....just saying!

[I Eat Staples]

Good because you shouldn't....just saying!

Well actually I have a problem with any divisional rivals winning games, but not with McCluster specifically. ;)

[Joel]

I got as far as "it's not the coaches fault if you can't get it in from the two on three running plays." Pray tell whose fault is it then? The offensive line? I know that various ones of last seasons losses got blamed on Pro Bowl linemen, Scheff or Marshall, but since most of the returning linemen have missed most of the season to date they can't bear the blame. Scheff and Marshall can't be blamed for the same reason Petyon Hillis and Ryan Torain can't: They win games for other teams now.

If the team's not getting the job done I have to look at the guy who runs the practices, the team meetings, names the starters, designs and calls the plays; if it still doesn't work you don't blame the water boy for letting the players get too dehydrated. The strength of this team now is its D, and I'm happy to see it, but I'd like to see more from our offensive coordinator turned coach. Dead last in running. The DENVER BRONCOS are LAST in running. Piling up tons of passing yards (we're 4th) doesn't mean anything unless it translates into points (we're 11th) and wins (we're .500, which is probably about where we'll finish.) Just ask Jerry Glanville, Jack Pardee or anyone who was an Oilers fan in the '80s and '90s (though that last includes me, so if you want me to elaborate I can.) In fact, until the rise of teams like the Pats and Colts it was treated as an axiom that any team that threw for 400 yards probably gained most of them in the fourth quarter while they were being routed.

Yes, a lot of people have been negative the past few years. However, since our best finish the last three years was 9-7, I'm not sure how anyone can imply they were off base. Produce that tenth win and maybe we can talk, but until then, it's just talk, and a lot of it seems like excuses. Sorry if that seems harsh, but that's my opinion, for whatever it's worth.

Despite all the injuries...

Watching you guys play yesterday...

You have a well-rounded team...

And a coach who needs to learn how to not go for it at the wrong times
I'm sure it's on the list. Sometimes, going for it makes all the sense in the world; if you're down by 4 on their 15 with 10 seconds to play, you go for it. If it's the 3rd quarter and you failed on three tries from the 2, going for it isn't going to give you the TD GOOD play calling would've already scored; it just means you're going to fail four times instead of three. That was the problem in that game, not that the offense did a good job but just "ran out of time" (or downs) but that the Colts D shut us down (or we did.) The defense was outstanding, which is a welcome change for us against the Colts, but the offense was lacking.

There was one upside for me: I grew up watching the Run 'N Shoot race inside its opponents 20 and come to a screeching halt, and since I'm first and foremost an Oilers fan it was nice to see my old team again. In a "hey, I KNOW that train wreck" sort of way. Seriously, our only TD in the game was a 45 yard long ball, bringing to mind the days when I used to hate the red zone because, until we reached it, there was a good possibility of a deep TD pass, but once there a FG was the best case scenario, and a turnover equally likely. Hopefully it's just a patchwork line and once everyone's healthy and has had some game time together things will start clicking. I'm just not going to take it for granted.