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Buff
09-24-2010, 12:06 PM
Injury he can't play through - McD says.

Goodman and Bailey attempting to practice today.

KCL
09-24-2010, 12:09 PM
Seems at one time...Denver always kept several RBs on the team...who else does the Broncos have besides him?

Buff
09-24-2010, 12:10 PM
Well Buckhalter is our #2. McD said he expects Maroney and Andre Brown to play as well.

Lonestar
09-24-2010, 12:10 PM
mr no body..

Northman
09-24-2010, 12:12 PM
Good grief. Somehow i knew this guy wouldnt hold up.

Lonestar
09-24-2010, 12:14 PM
lets hope they set Champ and goodman and write this one off as the loss it always was going to be.

lets get the troops well for the rest of the season.

Italianmobstr7
09-24-2010, 12:21 PM
Good grief. Somehow i knew this guy wouldnt hold up.

This will be the first game he's ever missed because of injury... We don't even know what happened. Seems like it happened after practice Thursday or something. Either way, terrible news. Really feel like we need him to have much of a chance vs the Colts.

Italianmobstr7
09-24-2010, 12:22 PM
lets hope they set Champ and goodman and write this one off as the loss it always was going to be.

lets get the troops well for the rest of the season.

I almost feel the same way, but you know what, they play the games for a reason. Any given Sunday.

KCL
09-24-2010, 12:22 PM
lets hope they set Champ and goodman and write this one off as the loss it always was going to be.

lets get the troops well for the rest of the season.

NFL says CB is expected to play.

dogfish
09-24-2010, 12:23 PM
good lord!

:rolleyes:

i'll say it again-- we need to spend another pick on a back next year. . . this is freakin' ridiculous. . .

Northman
09-24-2010, 12:23 PM
This will be the first game he's ever missed because of injury... We don't even know what happened.

Doesnt matter, the signs are there that he cant hold up especially this early in his career.

dogfish
09-24-2010, 12:25 PM
anybody think DThomas can score five TDs this week?

T.K.O.
09-24-2010, 12:28 PM
why did we let lance ball go ? i thought the kid looked like the best of the youngsters.
is this brown kid any good ?
i hope maroney is healthy and plays with a chip on his shoulder for being traded !
indy is 32nd at run D...so all hope is not lost:salute:

underrated29
09-24-2010, 12:32 PM
why did we let lance ball go ? i thought the kid looked like the best of the youngsters.
is this brown kid any good ?
i hope maroney is healthy and plays with a chip on his shoulder for being traded !
indy is 32nd at run D...so all hope is not lost:salute:




I liked brown a lot!! coming out of college. I predicted we would draft either knowshon, rashad, or brown. We ended up with 2 of them. I am stoked.


brown is slower, but is a mfing tank! So hard to bring down and he runs like a moose. Not a lot of wiggle, but he could certainly be our power/short yardage back.

Dreadnought
09-24-2010, 12:34 PM
I'm going to be all positive and optimistic. Since I don't think Knowshon is all that good in the first place, I don't really think we hurt our chances of getting the W all that much here.

ChampWJ
09-24-2010, 12:34 PM
good lord!

:rolleyes:

i'll say it again-- we need to spend another pick on a back next year. . . this is freakin' ridiculous. . .

Right, because pounding it up the middle with no blockers and/or getting destroyed in the backfield is a great way to keep any back healthy.

Northman
09-24-2010, 12:36 PM
Right, because pounding it up the middle with no blockers and/or getting destroyed in the backfield is a great way to keep any back healthy.

Or then again he just isnt durable which doesnt surprise me.

MileHighCrew
09-24-2010, 12:41 PM
Now to spend the next hour adjusting my FF line ups

dogfish
09-24-2010, 12:46 PM
Right, because pounding it up the middle with no blockers and/or getting destroyed in the backfield is a great way to keep any back healthy.

sorry to dog your georgia boy, but we need another back. . . we need another back even if knowshon can stay healthy going forward. . . we need one worse if he can't. . . the blocking sucked last year, but that wasn't the reason he ran tentative and showed no burst. . . he never got into a groove the entire season, and he's now well on his way to the same type of showing this year. . .

did you see how quickly he was getting winded against seattle? now he misses another week (maybe more-- we have no idea). . . when he comes back he certainly won't be any closer to game shape, and if he aggravated his hamstring, it could potentially slow him down for the bulk of the season. . .

in just over a year, he's now gotten hurt in pre-season action and twice in practice. . . it's frustrating, and it doesn't have anything to do with the blocking. . . that's just making an excuse for your guy. . .

rcsodak
09-24-2010, 12:47 PM
TOLD YA! Brown is gonna LIGHT.....THEM UUUUUUP!
:clap:
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rcsodak
09-24-2010, 12:48 PM
Seems at one time...Denver always kept several RBs on the team...who else does the Broncos have besides him?
hey! If you're gonna frequent this board, KNOW THE ******* ROSTER!























:couch:
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Day1BroncoFan
09-24-2010, 12:49 PM
This really stinks. Is KM going to be able to stay healthy or what?

Pooh!!! :tsk:

Grover
09-24-2010, 12:54 PM
Lance Ball has now cleared waivers and was added to our Practice Squad. So what we did was basically swap positions on those two and make Brown the guy who is available for games.

I'm expecting us to use a combination of Buckhalter, Maroney and Brown on Sunday. Given the injury question marks on the first two, and the inexperience of the third, I think we'll just see a rotation until one separates himself from the others.

I predict a lot of passing by the Broncos and i just hope we can keep up with the Colts in scoring and make the game competitive, and pull it out in the end on a punt return touchdown by either Cox or Thompson.

KCL
09-24-2010, 12:55 PM
hey! If you're gonna frequent this board, KNOW THE ******* ROSTER!























:couch:
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Hey now...I did remember back when there was a time when Denver had several backs on the roster ...like the one who ripped the Chiefs on a Monday night and wore a WWF belt...Griffin,Gary,TD and several others I can't think of right now...I know my football...just know the Chefs..I mean Chiefs better....:lol:

underrated29
09-24-2010, 12:57 PM
good lord!

:rolleyes:

i'll say it again-- we need to spend another pick on a back next year. . . this is freakin' ridiculous. . .



You know, I would have agreed with you before, but now....

We have knowmo, buck (most likely done this year), lomo, brown, lenwhale.

That is a pretty good set of horses. The one thing we do not have is a burner. None of those guys have elite speed. So I still would not mind a reggie bush/mccluster/sproles/harvin type of guy who can run and catch and is fast as lightning.

We do need a speed element i think. So while I disagree partially about needing another back now (with all the signings) I do agree that we do need a speed player (rb/tb/wr)

ChampWJ
09-24-2010, 01:03 PM
sorry to dog your georgia boy, but we need another back. . . we need another back even if knowshon can stay healthy going forward. . . we need one worse if he can't. . . the blocking sucked last year, but that wasn't the reason he ran tentative and showed no burst. . . he never got into a groove the entire season, and he's now well on his way to the same type of showing this year. . .

did you see how quickly he was getting winded against seattle? now he misses another week (maybe more-- we have no idea). . . when he comes back he certainly won't be any closer to game shape, and if he aggravated his hamstring, it could potentially slow him down for the bulk of the season. . .

in just over a year, he's now gotten hurt in pre-season action and twice in practice. . . it's frustrating, and it doesn't have anything to do with the blocking. . . that's just making an excuse for your guy. . .

You make good points for sure. Still, he was never injury prone in college, so I don't know why that would change suddenly. Having seen him play in college, I just wish Bronco fans could actually see what he can do when healthy and with decent play calling and blocking.

Plus it's not like our system is set up for amazing statistics from a running back. We were just spoiled with the stats RB's put up under Shanahan but this system is not conducive to that so it skews our opinions of what a running back should do. I will take 180+ total yards and 2 TD's thru 2 games from my running back any time so I don't know what you mean when you are already judging how poor of a season he is going to have.

You're right, I am biased towards him and I know what kind of player he can be. I will keep making excuses for him. If anything I have a higher expectation of what he will be able to do, and he has not fulfilled those for a number of reasons. That being said, I would like to see our fans have some patience and realize all of the contributing factors for his struggles instead of just writing him off as a sub-par player after a year.

MileHighCrew
09-24-2010, 01:03 PM
You know, I would have agreed with you before, but now....

We have knowmo, buck (most likely done this year), lomo, brown, lenwhale.

That is a pretty good set of horses. The one thing we do not have is a burner. None of those guys have elite speed. So I still would not mind a reggie bush/mccluster/sproles/harvin type of guy who can run and catch and is fast as lightning.

We do need a speed element i think. So while I disagree partially about needing another back now (with all the signings) I do agree that we do need a speed player (rb/tb/wr)

DT is big strong and very fast, Eddie is very fast.... maybe at RB you are correct but we have lots of speed at wr now

Nomad
09-24-2010, 01:04 PM
They got rid of Overtime too soon because he's be on this like white on rice:motz:!!! He was Moreno's biggest fan!:lol:

For the potential and what Moreno went through in the SEC, I would have thought he'd hold up a little better than what he has been so far!!

KCL
09-24-2010, 01:05 PM
I bet Overtime is wishing he could sign on and post in this thread!

KCL
09-24-2010, 01:07 PM
They got rid of Overtime too soon because he's be on this like white on rice:motz:!!! He was Moreno's biggest fan!:lol:



I bet Overtime is wishing he could sign on and post in this thread!

:lol:

Northman
09-24-2010, 01:08 PM
You make good points for sure. Still, he was never injury prone in college, so I don't know why that would change suddenly. Having seen him play in college, I just wish Bronco fans could actually see what he can do when healthy and with decent play calling and blocking.

Plus it's not like our system is set up for amazing statistics from a running back. We were just spoiled with the stats RB's put up under Shanahan but this system is not conducive to that so it skews our opinions of what a running back should do. I will take 180+ total yards and 2 TD's thru 2 games from my running back any time so I don't know what you mean when you are already judging how poor of a season he is going to have.

You're right, I am biased towards him and I know what kind of player he can be. I will keep making excuses for him. If anything I have a higher expectation of what he will be able to do, and he has not fulfilled those for a number of reasons. That being said, I would like to see our fans have some patience and realize all of the contributing factors for his struggles instead of just writing him off as a sub-par player after a year.


Earth to ChampWJ, college is different than the pros.

Sincerely,
Ryan Leaf

MileHighCrew
09-24-2010, 01:08 PM
Jay_Glazer
NÓt confirmed yet but I'm initially hearing it's the other hamstring, not same one he pulled in camp
2 minutes ago via ÜberTwitter
I'm hearing broncos rb k moreno pulled hamstring again in today's practice. Bad enough for him to be out this week and possibly next

ChampWJ
09-24-2010, 01:09 PM
Earth to ChampWJ, college is different than the pros.

Sincerely,
Ryan Leaf

Then I guess we should stop drafting players based off what they did in college, especially against the sub-par SEC competition he played against.

:tsk:

Northman
09-24-2010, 01:10 PM
They got rid of Overtime too soon because he's be on this like white on rice:motz:!!! He was Moreno's biggest fan!:lol:

For the potential and what Moreno went through in the SEC, I would have thought he'd hold up a little better than what he has been so far!!

Exactly. One of the things they liked about him in college was his supposed playmaking ability. Thus far, we havent seen it. Now with the durability issues im really starting to regret us taking him.

Northman
09-24-2010, 01:11 PM
Then I guess we should stop drafting players based off what they did in college, especially against the sub-par SEC competition he played against.

:tsk:

Nah, just stop trying to claim that both are one in the same.

Italianmobstr7
09-24-2010, 01:11 PM
Exactly. One of the things they liked about him in college was his supposed playmaking ability. Thus far, we havent seen it. Now with the durability issues im really starting to regret us taking him.

Did you see the screen pass last week? How about the entire Giants game last season? Knowshon is a playmaker. I'm frustrated that he's hurt too but you need to stop drinking all that haterade. Sound like a bitter SEC fan who hates Georgia or something...

Grover
09-24-2010, 01:25 PM
Regarding getting a smaller, faster, running back.

I recall when McDaniels was hired there were some stories that he preferred larger running backs. In fact, we had a "scatback" type on the team by the name of Anthony Alridge that a bunch of us were hyped up about. One of the first actions McDaniels did was to cut him.

I think the team is being built based on McDaniels philosophy which is fast and versatile wide receivers, and larger more punishing running backs. Dexter McCluster was available for us to pick in the draft, and KC got him. So I think that also says where McDaniels is in relation to wanting smaller, faster type guys in the backfield.

OK, I'll leave the above posted, but I just checked and McCluster is a Wide Receiver, not Running Back. So you all will just have to pretend that I have evidence for the point I was trying to make.

Northman
09-24-2010, 01:34 PM
Did you see the screen pass last week? How about the entire Giants game last season? Knowshon is a playmaker. I'm frustrated that he's hurt too but you need to stop drinking all that haterade. Sound like a bitter SEC fan who hates Georgia or something...


:lol:

Dude seriously. You want to challenge my opinion on a player im cool with that. But too try and make it personal or paint me as some "hater" is weak and below you. I dont hate Knowshon nor the Bulldogs so that has ZERO to do with it. I just dont like what ive seen from him so far and whatever "highlights" he has is far and in between for a guy taken at #12. Does our Oline have some issues? Yes, but nowhere near as you guys are trying to claim. Knowshon will still have some time to prove his worth but right now with his injury bug im just not sold on him. Until he proves otherwise there wont be much to change my stance on that.

turftoad
09-24-2010, 01:36 PM
Knowshon Moreno surprisingly ruled out against Colts
Posted by Gregg Rosenthal on September 24, 2010 1:29 PM ET
Well, this one came out of nowhere.

Broncos running back Knowshon Moreno has been ruled out of Sunday's game by coach Josh McDaniels, according to the team's official Twitter feed. Right tackle Ryan Harris is also out.

Moreno's news comes as a surprise because he wasn't even listed on the team's injury report the last two days. Moreno "sustained a little something he will not be able to play through this week," according to McDaniels via MaxDenver.com.

ESPN's Chris Mortensen reports Moreno was hurt in practice Friday, which is odd because it's a walkthrough. Correll Buckhalter and new addition Laurence Maroney will take over against Indianapolis.

Maroney looks poised to make his Broncos debut after fully practicing Thursday. Moreno was averaging only 2.9 yards-per-carry on 39 tries in the first two weeks.

McDaniels is optimistic cornerbacks Andre Goodman and Champ Bailey will suit up.

broncophan
09-24-2010, 01:39 PM
That sucks......but that's O.K.....Hillis will pick up the slack....errrrr:confused:....wait a minute...he is busy scoring td's for the browns.

Hope Moreno is only out 1 game....

honz
09-24-2010, 01:44 PM
Good grief. Somehow i knew this guy wouldnt hold up.
This is the first regular season game he has missed.

Ravage!!!
09-24-2010, 01:45 PM
Did you see the screen pass last week? How about the entire Giants game last season? Knowshon is a playmaker. I'm frustrated that he's hurt too but you need to stop drinking all that haterade. Sound like a bitter SEC fan who hates Georgia or something...

Dude.. I don't even watch college football and I can see that Knowshon just isn't very good. ANY RB, with as much playing time as he's had, will have two plays to brag about. Hell, we know of RBs that have been cut that have had more 100yrd games then he's had, and they started 2 games. If Knowshon is a playmaker, when is he going to show it and MAKE A PLAY?? Take one to the house, or make a run over 20 yrds?

I'm with Dread on this one. I don't think this really hurts our chances against the Colts. I think our odds of winning are the same, and haven't changed. I'm betting the Colts defense doesn't have to change a SINGLE thing to adjust to the news of Knowshon being out.

Northman
09-24-2010, 01:46 PM
This is the first regular season game he has missed.


And?

broncophan
09-24-2010, 01:50 PM
Dude.. I don't even watch college football and I can see that Knowshon just isn't very good. ANY RB, with as much playing time as he's had, will have two plays to brag about. Hell, we know of RBs that have been cut that have had more 100yrd games then he's had, and they started 2 games. If Knowshon is a playmaker, when is he going to show it and MAKE A PLAY?? Take one to the house, or make a run over 20 yrds?

I'm with Dread on this one. I don't think this really hurts our chances against the Colts. I think our odds of winning are the same, and haven't changed. I'm getting the Colts defense doesn't have to change a SINGLE thing to adjust to the news of Knowshon being out.

Yea.....somehow....I don't think we will miss his 2.9 yards per carry....and him being out....just really will not have anything to do with the outcome of the game...imo.......it was nice to see him play better last week though....

Edmonton Bronco Fan
09-24-2010, 01:52 PM
That's a pretty big blow especially after the game he had last week. Hopefully it's a short term thing although if it is indeed the hammy again, that's a little concerning to me.

Either way, I think that talk of drafting another back and looking for insurance policies in the event that KnoMo is going to have some injury plagued career is incredibly premature.

honz
09-24-2010, 01:53 PM
And?
Don't you think it's a little premature to say you knew he wouldn't hold up.

Northman
09-24-2010, 01:55 PM
Don't you think it's a little premature to say you knew he wouldn't hold up.

Not really. He was injured for a period of time last year. Then this offseason and now for this game. Its starting to show a trend to me so no i dont think its premature and i believe it will get worse before it gets better with him. My opinion of course.

Ravage!!!
09-24-2010, 01:55 PM
Yea.....somehow....I don't think we will miss his 2.9 yards per carry....and him being out....just really will not have anything to do with the outcome of the game...imo.......it was nice to see him play better last week though....

On one run. I marked that run on my DVR, because I knew that ONE run (on the screen pass) was going to be the 'crown moment' for those telling us Knowshon was good.

I think maroney is used to catching passes out of the backfield, so although I don't think Maroney is worth a crap, I don't think we lose much.

Edmonton Bronco Fan
09-24-2010, 01:58 PM
Dude.. I don't even watch college football and I can see that Knowshon just isn't very good. ANY RB, with as much playing time as he's had, will have two plays to brag about. Hell, we know of RBs that have been cut that have had more 100yrd games then he's had, and they started 2 games. If Knowshon is a playmaker, when is he going to show it and MAKE A PLAY?? Take one to the house, or make a run over 20 yrds?

I'm with Dread on this one. I don't think this really hurts our chances against the Colts. I think our odds of winning are the same, and haven't changed. I'm betting the Colts defense doesn't have to change a SINGLE thing to adjust to the news of Knowshon being out.

I don't see how you can determine that barely a season into a RB's career. Players develop at different rates, not everybody is going to come into the NFL and tear it up continually like LT or AP have. I've seen enough development in KnoMo's game over the past year and a bit and feel comfortable with the rate he's progressing. A little bit too much of a E-W runner rather than a N-S guy right now but again, these things come with time and experience in the NFL. The transition just simply isn't the same for every single RB out there.

This year, he's been running behind a sub-par O-Line to begin the year. One that is having trouble opening holes for him so I don't think anybody can really draw any solid conclusions off of what we've seen thus far in 10/11.

Saying he's no good is pretty harsh, in my opinion.

broncophan
09-24-2010, 01:59 PM
On one run. I marked that run on my DVR, because I knew that ONE run (on the screen pass) was going to be the 'crown moment' for those telling us Knowshon was good.

I think maroney is used to catching passes out of the backfield, so although I don't think Maroney is worth a crap, I don't think we lose much.

Yea....I am really trying to stay positive....and give the kid a chance....but I have not really been impressed with him at all....
I think Maroney will be good for the broncos.....time will tell.....

Northman
09-24-2010, 02:02 PM
I don't see how you can determine that barely a season into a RB's career. Players develop at different rates, not everybody is going to come into the NFL and tear it up continually like LT or AP have. I've seen enough development in KnoMo's game over the past year and a bit and feel comfortable with the rate he's progressing. A little bit too much of a E-W runner rather than a N-S guy right now but again, these things come with time and experience in the NFL. The transition just simply isn't the same for every single RB out there.

This year, he's been running behind a sub-par O-Line to begin the year. One that is having trouble opening holes for him so I don't think anybody can really draw any solid conclusions off of what we've seen thus far in 10/11.

Saying he's no good is pretty harsh, in my opinion.

Its because Knowshon is more of a "flash" player rather than a bull terrier. This is why guys like Brown and Greene are doing fine running N-S with their respective teams. But again, those guys were drafted behind Moreno so one could easily see why some people have doubts about him. Moreno spends too much time dancing in the backfield than hitting the holes like he should.

ChampWJ
09-24-2010, 02:04 PM
We're all Bronco fans here and should be rooting for Knowshon to live up to the potential he undoubtedly has. I'm just picking up the feeling that so many fans have already made their minds up about him and are now hoping he fails so they can say "see I told you he wasn't worth the 12th pick".

Has Knowshon had some injuries? Sure. All running backs get injured. Did they hurry him back before he was 100%? Could some of his injury woes have been prevented with a more stable offensive line? Did the power rushing style contribute when that's not really his game in the first place?

There are so many contributing factors here and to make up your mind about a player based on the small sampling we've seen is premature.

Give the kid a chance. He is an exciting player with tons of potential, McDaniels loves him, and I would say his contributions this year cannot be measured solely by statistics. But if you want to do that, go ahead and look at just his stats through two games and tell me you wouldn't take that. Then consider how many times he has made a positive play after being hit before the line of scrimmage because of our musical-chair offensive line. Then consider he is probably playing at 75%. Then tell me how he could have a better impact with us trailing most of the game against Jax and trying to run out the clock against Seattle.

I think he has been doing an excellent job considering the circumstances and can't wait until everything comes together for him and the team.

robert ethan
09-24-2010, 02:15 PM
This may prove to be a fortuitous injury in the long haul. Moreno and Buckhalter weren't doing the job. Moreno doesn't have deep speed (4.6 40) or the size to grind out yards inside. Maybe if he fills out a bit and works on his conditioning. Maroney and Brown can't be worse. Both ran their 40s in the 4.45 range and both have 10 to 15 pounds on Moreno.

Ziggy
09-24-2010, 02:16 PM
Its because Knowshon is more of a "flash" player rather than a bull terrier. This is why guys like Brown and Greene are doing fine running N-S with their respective teams. But again, those guys were drafted behind Moreno so one could easily see why some people have doubts about him. Moreno spends too much time dancing in the backfield than hitting the holes like he should.

I hate to say it, but that sums up Moreno in one sentence. The problem is, it also sums up Maroney in one sentence.

T.K.O.
09-24-2010, 02:19 PM
Story StatsBroncos' Moreno injures hamstring, won't play vs. Colts
By Mike Klis
The Denver Post

Posted: 09/24/2010 11:46:55 AM MDTUpdated: 09/24/2010 12:45:16 PM MDT


Broncos running back Knowshon Moreno fights for yardage against the Seahawks in last Sunday's game. ( AP | Jack Dempsey)The injury suffered by Broncos starting running back Knowshon Moreno during practice Thursday was to his left hamstring, not the hamstring he pulled on the first day of training camp on Aug. 1, according to two NFL sources.

Moreno yanked the right hamstring in camp, an injury that sidelined him for more than four weeks and the entire preseason.

It was the left hamstring that Moreno injured during practice Thursday, a setback that will keep him out of the game Sunday against the Indianapolis Colts.

Moreno had been busy, with mixed results, in the Broncos first two regular-season games, rushing 39 times but for only 111 yards — a 2.8-yard average — and two touchdowns.

He did have four catches for 67 yards last week in a 31-14 win against Seattle.

"I'm telling you every team is dealing with (injuries)," coach Josh McDaniels said today. "(The Colts) have more guys on their injury report than we do. That's why you have a roster full of players."

With Moreno out, the Broncos will likely rotate Correll Buckhalter and recently acquired Laurence Maroney at tailback Sunday against the Colts, with Andre Brown serving as the third back. Maroney was acquired in a trade from New England last week and Brown was picked up after he was waived by the New York Giants on the final day of roster cuts three weeks ago.

Broncos tight tackle Ryan Harris (left ankle) has also been ruled out against the Colts, but cornerbacks Champ Bailey (right heel) and Andre' Goodman (thigh) each returned to practice today and could play Sunday.




Read more: Broncos' Moreno injures hamstring, won't play vs. Colts - The Denver Post http://www.denverpost.com/sports/ci_16164580#ixzz10Tadc8wq

rcsodak
09-24-2010, 02:20 PM
:lol:
Rule #68: NO chef fans self-quoting. :tsk:
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broncophan
09-24-2010, 02:20 PM
We're all Bronco fans here and should be rooting for Knowshon to live up to the potential he undoubtedly has. I'm just picking up the feeling that so many fans have already made their minds up about him and are now hoping he fails so they can say "see I told you he wasn't worth the 12th pick".

Has Knowshon had some injuries? Sure. All running backs get injured. Did they hurry him back before he was 100%? Could some of his injury woes have been prevented with a more stable offensive line? Did the power rushing style contribute when that's not really his game in the first place?

There are so many contributing factors here and to make up your mind about a player based on the small sampling we've seen is premature.

Give the kid a chance. He is an exciting player with tons of potential, McDaniels loves him, and I would say his contributions this year cannot be measured solely by statistics. But if you want to do that, go ahead and look at just his stats through two games and tell me you wouldn't take that. Then consider how many times he has made a positive play after being hit before the line of scrimmage because of our musical-chair offensive line. Then consider he is probably playing at 75%. Then tell me how he could have a better impact with us trailing most of the game against Jax and trying to run out the clock against Seattle.

I think he has been doing an excellent job considering the circumstances and can't wait until everything comes together for him and the team.

I don't really need to look further than 2.9 yards per carry.......but...as I said....I am really trying to be positive and give the kid a chance...he has a full season + now under his belt.....and it would be nice to see him start doing something positive consistantly.

Northman
09-24-2010, 02:22 PM
We're all Bronco fans here and should be rooting for Knowshon to live up to the potential he undoubtedly has. I'm just picking up the feeling that so many fans have already made their minds up about him and are now hoping he fails so they can say "see I told you he wasn't worth the 12th pick".

I can assure you i dont root for any Bronco player to fail. Im just pointing out my concerns and right i dont feel he has lived up to his draft position.


Has Knowshon had some injuries? Sure. All running backs get injured. Did they hurry him back before he was 100%? Could some of his injury woes have been prevented with a more stable offensive line? Did the power rushing style contribute when that's not really his game in the first place?

So your on record saying that he is more of a "Reggie Bush" type back? He seems a little to big for that role but i would agree he isnt a power rusher so it baffles me why we drafted him if we dont utilize him as a third down back ala Kevin Faulk.


There are so many contributing factors here and to make up your mind about a player based on the small sampling we've seen is premature.

Its still early but not premature. When someone starts showing signs of unable to stay healthy at ANY point in a season that is cause for concern and thats merely what people are pointing out here. As far as his "ability" its about 40% Oline and 60% Moreno in my opinion.


Give the kid a chance.

No one has said they werent giving him a chance.

rcsodak
09-24-2010, 02:23 PM
Exactly. One of the things they liked about him in college was his supposed playmaking ability. Thus far, we havent seen it. Now with the durability issues im really starting to regret us taking him.
I saw him hurdling would-be tacklers last week to extend his runs. If that isn't "playmaking abilities".......
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

Northman
09-24-2010, 02:26 PM
I saw him hurdling would-be tacklers last week to extend his runs. If that isn't "playmaking abilities".......
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

I saw him try to hurdle someone and got tripped up so i guess he is 50/50 when it comes to pretending to be Walter Payton. Either way, when he can start to make those kinds of plays consistently than we can revisit his greatness and contributions. :beer:

ChampWJ
09-24-2010, 02:31 PM
This may prove to be a fortuitous injury in the long haul. Moreno and Buckhalter weren't doing the job. Moreno doesn't have deep speed (4.6 40) or the size to grind out yards inside. Maybe if he fills out a bit and works on his conditioning. Maroney and Brown can't be worse. Both ran their 40s in the 4.45 range and both have 10 to 15 pounds on Moreno.

Moreno: 5'11" 210 (it was 215 when he got drafted)
Moroney: 5'11" 220
Brown: 6'0" 224
Buck: 6'0" 223

Moreno is not as undersized as you make him out to be and .1 in the 40? Come on.

Just for comparison's sake:

Adrian Peterson: 6'1" 217
Chris Johnson: 5"11" 191
Shonn Greene: 5"11" 226
Ladainian Tomlinson: 5'10" 215
Frank Gore: 5'9" 217
Marion Barber: 5"11" 218
Ray Rice: 5'8" 212
Lesean McCoy: 5'11" 208
Pierre Thomas: 5'11" 215
Jahvid Best: 5'10" 199
Clinton Portis: 5'11" 218
Deangelo Williams: 5'9" 217
Jamaal Charles: 5'11" 199

Still think Knowshon is undersized?

There are plenty of reasons we haven't seen Knowshon break out, but it has nothing to do with his size and speed. The talent is there.

Poet
09-24-2010, 02:32 PM
I think you guys are being a little harsh on Moreno.

Your offensive line blows and his average is still close to 4 for his tenure in Denver. This year you don't have a stud that has to be taken into account on every play in the passing game.

The injuries he has aren't really 'durability' issues. Durability issues are when you guy gets hit and he can't take it.

Anyone can pull a hammy. I've seen the guy make some nice plays. I don't think that he's the next Jim Brown or anything, but he's not the next Ki-Jana Carter either.

ChampWJ
09-24-2010, 02:37 PM
Moreno spends too much time dancing in the backfield than hitting the holes like he should.

What holes? The ones the defenders are getting through? He is dancing to get back to the line of scrimmage half the time.

Also, on injuries helping shape opinions of him: hasn't our entire team been injury prone for the last several years?

There is a trend going on here and Moreno isn't the only player on the team battling it. How many backs did we lose a couple years ago? How many injuries did we have in training camp this year, and some in non-contact drills. Just saying.

silkamilkamonico
09-24-2010, 02:41 PM
Moreno: 5'11" 210 (it was 215 when he got drafted)
Moroney: 5'11" 220
Brown: 6'0" 224
Buck: 6'0" 223

Moreno is not as undersized as you make him out to be and .1 in the 40? Come on.

Just for comparison's sake:

Adrian Peterson: 6'1" 217
Chris Johnson: 5"11" 191
Shonn Greene: 5"11" 226
Ladainian Tomlinson: 5'10" 215
Frank Gore: 5'9" 217
Marion Barber: 5"11" 218
Ray Rice: 5'8" 212
Lesean McCoy: 5'11" 208
Pierre Thomas: 5'11" 215
Jahvid Best: 5'10" 199
Clinton Portis: 5'11" 218
Deangelo Williams: 5'9" 217
Jamaal Charles: 5'11" 199

Still think Knowshon is undersized?

There are plenty of reasons we haven't seen Knowshon break out, but it has nothing to do with his size and speed. The talent is there.

Knowshon is ceiling RB. He isn't powerful, and he isn't explosive at all. he has good wiggle through the line, but that's about it. He can't beat LB's/S's in the open field, and he isn't going to run away from anybody. He isn't even quick by any means.

Moreno is a poor version of Curtis Martin. He will not have many long runs, but he also won't have many minus runs. He's a good multi purpose back, but we need a RB who can be a main fixture in the running game, because Knowshon Moreno is not it.

broncophan
09-24-2010, 02:50 PM
sure our offensive line is not the greatest....but I really get tired of excuses for underperforming first round picks.....and I think, while it may still be too early, to throw Moreno in that category....he is alot closer to that..... than a "good/great" first round pick.

the kid has played 18 games....and has played WITH and against the best football players in the world.....sooner or later he needs to start being consistantly productive for the broncos........

Northman
09-24-2010, 02:50 PM
What holes? The ones the defenders are getting through? He is dancing to get back to the line of scrimmage half the time.

I think we've been over this. Sure, the Oline has some issues but most of it to me has been on him himself. When the holes are there he chooses to dance around. You cant blame the Oline for everything man because its just flat out BS.


Also, on injuries helping shape opinions of him: hasn't our entire team been injury prone for the last several years?

There is a trend going on here and Moreno isn't the only player on the team battling it. How many backs did we lose a couple years ago? How many injuries did we have in training camp this year, and some in non-contact drills. Just saying.

So what are you going to blame? Medical staff? Trainers? What?

Edmonton Bronco Fan
09-24-2010, 02:50 PM
Its because Knowshon is more of a "flash" player rather than a bull terrier. This is why guys like Brown and Greene are doing fine running N-S with their respective teams. But again, those guys were drafted behind Moreno so one could easily see why some people have doubts about him. Moreno spends too much time dancing in the backfield than hitting the holes like he should.

I both agree and disagree with you here, but as ChampWJ pointed out, how do you hit a hole that doesn't exist?

Right now, our O-Line isn't exactly a model of consistency, nor is it up to snuff at this point in the season. I do have hope, and also expect that to change though once Harris (hopefully) returns. But aside from that, from both regular season games I've seen this season, more often than not, when KnoMo gets the ball, he has a defender in his face before he can even get near whatever potential hole may open up.

Not really a recipe for success when it comes to any RB, especially in this league. But like I said, I do agree with you that he needs to tone down the E-W stuff and just focus on pounding it N-S some of the time regardless of whether or not something has opened up or not.

Either way, I still stand by my prediction that he'll eventually become a top 3-5 RB in this league in short order.

Northman
09-24-2010, 02:51 PM
sure our offensive line is not the greatest....but i really get tired of excuses for underperforming first round picks.....and i think, while it may still be too early, to throw moreno in that category....he is alot closer to that..... Than a "good/great" first round pick.

The kid has played 18 games....and has played with and against the best football players in the world.....sooner or later he needs to start being consistantly productive for the broncos........

yep.

Northman
09-24-2010, 02:51 PM
I both agree and disagree with you here, but as ChampWJ pointed out, how do you hit a hole that doesn't exist?

Right now, our O-Line isn't exactly a model of consistency, nor is it up to snuff at this point in the season. I do have hope, and also expect that to change though once Harris (hopefully) returns. But aside from that, from both regular season games I've seen this season, more often than not, when KnoMo gets the ball, he has a defender in his face before he can even get near whatever potential hole may open up.

Not really a recipe for success when it comes to any RB, especially in this league. But like I said, I do agree with you that he needs to tone down the E-W stuff and just focus on pounding it N-S some of the time.

Either way, I still stand by my prediction that he'll eventually become a top 3-5 RB in this league in short order.

Read above. People are way to quick to blame the Oline for a majority of our problems which is just false.

Ravage!!!
09-24-2010, 02:54 PM
Sure seems I see Buckhalter blast through the same "nonexistant" holes that Moreno doesn't ever seem to have. Why aren't the holes there for him? Because they collapse before Moreno gets through them.

I've just been very disappointed in what I've seen from him thus far as a Bronco. People keep telling me that give the "rookie" some time. He was supposed to be this high-dynamic, explosive, play-making RB. But he hasn't made those plays. I guess Best in Detroit just has that much better of a team?? Because he's sure shown me that HE's a threat, and he's just a rookie.

Northman
09-24-2010, 02:59 PM
Look, there's a reason why guys like Bucky and Maroney are castoffs or are no longer wanted. They just arent quality backs and right now Moreno hasnt done a lot to separate himself from that type of comparison. Silk pointed it out that we really need to find a back who is going to be fixture in the backfield with Moreno possibly being a 3rd down type of back. But having taken a back like that at #12 is kind of pointless when you dont have a power back to carry the load. Right now McD is really doing nothing different than Shanahan by trying to patch up a poorous backfield. Time to get a legitimate RB who can carry the load.

Ravage!!!
09-24-2010, 03:01 PM
Look, there's a reason why guys like Bucky and Maroney are castoffs or are no longer wanted. They just arent quality backs and right now Moreno hasnt done a lot to separate himself from that type of comparison. Silk pointed it out that we really need to find a back who is going to be fixture in the backfield with Moreno possibly being a 3rd down type of back. But having taken a back like that at #12 is kind of pointless when you dont have a power back to carry the load. Right now McD is really doing nothing different than Shanahan by trying to patch up a poorous backfield. Time to get a legitimate RB who can carry the load.

wel.. yeah.... except we got production from past RBs :shocked: :lol:

Northman
09-24-2010, 03:02 PM
I guess Best in Detroit just has that much better of a team?? Because he's sure shown me that HE's a threat, and he's just a rookie.

That one's going to hurt.

KCL
09-24-2010, 03:04 PM
http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=176097

:D

Northman
09-24-2010, 03:06 PM
http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=176097

:D

I got a better idea, you guys take Johnson back and give us Charles. :salute:

Ravage!!!
09-24-2010, 03:09 PM
I got a better idea, you guys take Johnson back and give us Charles. :salute:

HELL yeah... the coach in KC doesn't even use Charles much. He actually gives Jones more touches. I'd take Charles in a heartbeat! Lets take him off their hands. They have McCluster anyway.

KCL
09-24-2010, 03:11 PM
I got a better idea, you guys take Johnson back and give us Charles. :salute:
No effin way..:D
We aren't in need of a back...perhaps Buff right...:lol:

KCL
09-24-2010, 03:12 PM
HELL yeah... the coach in KC doesn't even use Charles much. He actually gives Jones more touches. I'd take Charles in a heartbeat! Lets take him off their hands. They have McCluster anyway.

Haley is saving Charles for the Broncos...:laugh:

Nomad
09-24-2010, 03:13 PM
I believe SD would have taken Moreno and made him a special back and McD knew that so he took him!!

I'd would have rather a dlineman or linebacker at 12 but it is what it is!!

Ravage!!!
09-24-2010, 03:13 PM
Haley is saving Charles for the Broncos...:laugh:

:lol: Thats probably true. He'll have the single season rush record, and then watch Jones get more carries the next week. Saving him for the second game against the Broncos

KCL
09-24-2010, 03:15 PM
:lol: Thats probably true. He'll have the single season rush record, and then watch Jones get more carries the next week. Saving him for the second game against the Broncos

I like Jones also.

Northman
09-24-2010, 03:16 PM
I believe SD would have taken Moreno and made him a special back and McD knew that so he took him!!

I'd would have rather a dlineman or linebacker at 12 but it is what it is!!

Well, taking Moreno didnt stop them from whooping our ass anyway. Even in the game we won it had more to do with Royal and Shef.

Ravage!!!
09-24-2010, 03:17 PM
I like Jones also.

He's alright. I don't have anything against him OTHER than I personally believe that Charles is a guy that could take it to the house on any touch of the ball. I would want the ball in those hands more than a guy like Jones, whom I would use as a compliment to Charles, instead of the other way around.

ChampWJ
09-24-2010, 03:18 PM
Knowshon is ceiling RB. He isn't powerful, and he isn't explosive at all. he has good wiggle through the line, but that's about it. He can't beat LB's/S's in the open field, and he isn't going to run away from anybody. He isn't even quick by any means.

Knowshon has plenty of open field ability, agility and elusiveness. No one ever said he's powerful. We just haven't seen him at his best because he has never been 100% since we drafted him. Is that an issue? Sure, but it doesn't mean he can't play or won't improve.


He's a good multi purpose back, but we need a RB who can be a main fixture in the running game, because Knowshon Moreno is not it.

Well I guess that solves it then. The Broncos should just cut him since the experts here have evaluated him.

Ravage!!!
09-24-2010, 03:19 PM
I believe SD would have taken Moreno and made him a special back and McD knew that so he took him!!

I'd would have rather a dlineman or linebacker at 12 but it is what it is!!

Maybe. But if I could go back in time, I would much rather the Chargers take Moreno then ending up with the RB they have now.

Day1BroncoFan
09-24-2010, 03:20 PM
We just haven't seen him at his best because he has never been 100% since we drafted him. Is that an issue? Sure, but it doesn't mean he can't play or won't improve.


This is the whole point. Can he improve is the question. I am starting to wonder but I'm not ready to write him off just yet.

underrated29
09-24-2010, 03:21 PM
He's alright. I don't have anything against him OTHER than I personally believe that Charles is a guy that could take it to the house on any touch of the ball. I would want the ball in those hands more than a guy like Jones, whom I would use as a compliment to Charles, instead of the other way around.




Not me man. We had with mike and tatum.

Tatum could bust it at anytime, but he sucked. Mike could bust but never all the way. But he could move the chains.

(now I do understand that charles can actually break a tackle and not fall down when someone in the stands farts.

Ravage!!!
09-24-2010, 03:22 PM
Knowshon has plenty of open field ability, agility and elusiveness. No one ever said he's powerful. We just haven't seen him at his best because he has never been 100% since we drafted him. Is that an issue? Sure, but it doesn't mean he can't play or won't improve.

Didn't you just question how anyone could suggest he was injury prone? :confused:


Well I guess that solves it then. The Broncos should just cut him since the experts here have evaluated him.

Have too much money invested in him to cut him loose. But I wouldn't be surprised to see us use a higher pick on a RB next year if Moreno doesn't start showing something. Maybe it would be the best thing for Moreno to be a complimentary back to one that is a true starter.

Bosco
09-24-2010, 03:23 PM
Only Denver fans would start throwing hissy fits about a supposedly injury prone player when he's just about to miss his very first game because of injury.

Sad.

Ravage!!!
09-24-2010, 03:26 PM
Only Denver fans would start throwing hissy fits about a supposedly injury prone player when he's just about to miss his very first game because of injury.

Sad.

yeah.. no other fans in the NFL can spot that he hasn't been healthy since being drafted, hence why someone would suggest that his "injury problem" might be an issue.

Doesn't matter if he's listed as "playing" if he doesn't produce because he supposedly isn't healthy.

I know one thing that woudl stop the critics. Produce. Do something. Hell, get ONE 100yrd game. BREAK a long TD..... something.

Northman
09-24-2010, 03:27 PM
Oh shit, Bosco is here. Time to pack up boys/girls, cant give our opinions anymore.

DenBronx
09-24-2010, 03:29 PM
Yeah this sucks.


I now have one foot off the Moreno banwagon. I think he can do some good things for us but it's hard to make the club in the tub.


Could be a blessing because my bet is Maroney has something to prove.

broncophan
09-24-2010, 03:55 PM
on a side note.....I am sure he is enjoying his big contract bonus he received when signing his contract last year.....after his 2 or 3 week holdout...

T.K.O.
09-24-2010, 04:10 PM
on the bright side ....we won't need him.
K.O. is gonna slice & dice the colts secondary with royal, gaffney and D.T.
its gonna be a aerial assault the likes of which the NFL has never seen !!!!!:elefant:
* post submitted for the 2011 "biggest homer" award;)

Northman
09-24-2010, 04:16 PM
Is that before or after Freeney and Mathis break his legs? lmao

I Eat Staples
09-24-2010, 04:28 PM
Moreno is injury prone. Let's see what Maroney can do.

Ravage!!!
09-24-2010, 04:31 PM
Moreno is injury prone. Let's see what Maroney can do.

man.. who would have thought that maroney would have been the "healthy" one on the roster?

arapaho2
09-24-2010, 05:02 PM
i dont think losing moreno is a big deal...not like were are losing a huge offensive weapon...marony should do no worse than moreno would have

T.K.O.
09-24-2010, 05:30 PM
i dont think losing moreno is a big deal...not like were are losing a huge offensive weapon...marony should do no worse than moreno would have

if he was 100% and not coming off his own leg injury i would agree.
however this "let's put the healthiest guy out there "thing is getting old after 2 years:eek:

Denver Native (Carol)
09-24-2010, 05:37 PM
I did not take the time to read thru all posts to see if this had been posted yet.

http://www.denverpost.com/sports/ci_16164580

The injury suffered by Broncos starting running back Knowshon Moreno during practice Thursday was to his left hamstring, not the hamstring he pulled on the first day of training camp on Aug. 1, according to two NFL sources.

Moreno yanked the right hamstring in camp, an injury that sidelined him for more than four weeks and the entire preseason.

It was the left hamstring that Moreno injured during practice Thursday, a setback that will keep him out of the game Sunday against the Indianapolis Colts.

Moreno had been busy, with mixed results, in the Broncos first two regular-season games, rushing 39 times but for only 111 yards — a 2.8-yard average — and two touchdowns.

He did have four catches for 67 yards last week in a 31-14 win against Seattle.

"I'm telling you every team is dealing with (injuries)," coach Josh McDaniels said today. "(The Colts) have more guys on their injury report than we do. That's why you have a roster full of players."

With Moreno out, the Broncos will likely rotate Correll Buckhalter and recently acquired Laurence Maroney at tailback Sunday against the Colts, with Andre Brown serving as the third back. Maroney was acquired in a trade from New England last week and Brown was picked up after he was waived by the New York Giants on the final day of roster cuts three weeks ago.

Broncos tight tackle Ryan Harris (left ankle) has also been ruled out against the Colts, but cornerbacks Champ Bailey (right heel) and Andre' Goodman (thigh) each returned to practice today and could play Sunday.

Dzone
09-24-2010, 05:42 PM
Is morenos 2.4 yard avg because he is not very good or is it the O Line? The kid shows occasional flashes of brilliance but this guy may be one of those RBs who are chronically injured...another #1 down the commode

honz
09-24-2010, 05:48 PM
Wow, just wow.

robert ethan
09-24-2010, 06:16 PM
It'll all be fine if they get some good efforts out of Maroney and/or Brown for a few games until Moreno is healthy and hungry again. I think they'd like to lose Buckhalter, he's past the best before date.

Lonestar
09-24-2010, 06:17 PM
it is a hamstring folks happens to athletes all the time
I had one for a long time in track season and till have Quad that never was treated right while playing summer softball.

He has access to the finest doctors and trainers in the world.

lets give him a chance before we roast him.

Ravage!!!
09-24-2010, 06:20 PM
it is a hamstring folks happens to athletes all the time
I had one for a long time in track season and till have Quad that never was treated right while playing summer softball.

He has access to the finest doctors and trainers in the world.

lets give him a chance before we roast him.

Ok.. but I don't think it was his hammy that kept him from impressing before this injury.

Dzone
09-24-2010, 06:21 PM
yeah.. no other fans in the NFL can spot that he hasn't been healthy since being drafted, hence why someone would suggest that his "injury problem" might be an issue.

Doesn't matter if he's listed as "playing" if he doesn't produce because he supposedly isn't healthy.

I know one thing that woudl stop the critics. Produce. Do something. Hell, get ONE 100yrd game. BREAK a long TD..... something.
Exactly...Damn, I like Moreno...I liked the pick, but this is getting sad. Maybe its still too early to write him off, but it isnt looking real good for moreno...gotta hope that someone steps up against Indy...Maybe Moroney or buck will break loose...Could this weeks adversity inspire this team to an upset?????Enough heartache already

Dzone
09-24-2010, 06:56 PM
maybe this andre brown cat will turn out ok and surprise some people.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9kYqvdEl_Q

nevcraw
09-24-2010, 07:04 PM
I for one though he had his best game a pro last week..

no not for the 2.9 yards a carry but he finally was running downhill and not trying to slide into holes. you can only fault him to a point for always being in hit in the backfield. but when he does get past the los --that's where he sucked the most until last week. he won't put the head down and dive forward, instead he trys to be all jukey and not do it well.
he reminds me of a less efective Mike Bell.

Let's get him healthy and see his blockers get situated and me thinks he can build off how he was running last week and hopefully not revert back into who he's been so far.

Lonestar
09-24-2010, 07:06 PM
Exactly...Damn, I like Moreno...I liked the pick, but this is getting sad. Maybe its still too early to write him off, but it isnt looking real good for moreno...gotta hope that someone steps up against Indy...Maybe Moroney or buck will break loose...Could this weeks adversity inspire this team to an upset?????Enough heartache already

unless there is divine intervention this will not be a win.

we were not supposed to win this game from the git go when schedule came out. since then the following has happened not neccesarily in the order of importance.

Loss of a team mate to suicide.
loss of starting CB's
loss of ORT
loss of starting RB
OLT is not playing at 100%
rookie center
rookie replacement @ ORT


lets not pretend ANYONE thought we could beat this team.

broncofaninfla
09-24-2010, 07:08 PM
If we traded noshow for a fifth round pick I'd feel like we ripped the other team off. He has been nothing short of pathetic to date for Denver. Undrafted Mike Bell is five times the rb noshow is.
What is it with Mcd's rb's? Why are they all made of glass?

Dzone
09-24-2010, 07:17 PM
If we traded noshow for a fifth round pick I'd feel like we ripped the other team off. He has been nothing short of pathetic to date for Denver. Undrafted Mike Bell is five times the rb noshow is.
What is it with Mcd's rb's? Why are they all made of glass?
LOL...Noshow..hahah...The dude is the most dynamic 2 yards a carry back anyone has ever seen...

LordTrychon
09-24-2010, 07:32 PM
The rest of the rookies last year must have really sucked then.

I Eat Staples
09-24-2010, 08:30 PM
Is morenos 2.4 yard avg because he is not very good or is it the O Line? The kid shows occasional flashes of brilliance but this guy may be one of those RBs who are chronically injured...another #1 down the commode

Both.


Ok.. but I don't think it was his hammy that kept him from impressing before this injury.

Not to mention he's had injuries to both hamstrings and his knee. You can use injuries as excuses until it gets to the point where you have to label him as injury prone. So he's either just not good or he's injury prone, and neither of those are good things.

ChampWJ
09-24-2010, 08:36 PM
If we traded noshow for a fifth round pick I'd feel like we ripped the other team off. He has been nothing short of pathetic to date for Denver. Undrafted Mike Bell is five times the rb noshow is.
What is it with Mcd's rb's? Why are they all made of glass?

This is unbelievable. What are your expectations? Unless you thought we were getting Jim Brown or Walter Payton I don't know how anyone would call his time here pathetic or trade him for a 5th round pick at this point.

Attention all future Broncos first round picks: if you aren't an immediate pro bowler/all pro you're in for it. We don't care if you get hurt or have a sorry supporting cast, we expect immediate greatness. And if we didn't think you were worth the pick in the first place we will be even more unforgiving and biased towards your failure to prove ourselves right.

Bosco
09-24-2010, 08:40 PM
it is a hamstring folks happens to athletes all the time
I had one for a long time in track season and till have Quad that never was treated right while playing summer softball.

He has access to the finest doctors and trainers in the world.

lets give him a chance before we roast him.

There isn't enough drama and hand wringing in this post.

honz
09-24-2010, 10:04 PM
Wow, just wow.

jhildebrand
09-24-2010, 10:09 PM
Good grief. Somehow i knew this guy wouldnt hold up.

I can now say with certainty (as I have said for a while now) that this kid is injury prone.

Practice? :tsk: Practice :tsk:? We're talking about...practice :tsk:

jhildebrand
09-24-2010, 10:14 PM
yeah.. no other fans in the NFL can spot that he hasn't been healthy since being drafted, hence why someone would suggest that his "injury problem" might be an issue.

Doesn't matter if he's listed as "playing" if he doesn't produce because he supposedly isn't healthy.

I know one thing that woudl stop the critics. Produce. Do something. Hell, get ONE 100yrd game. BREAK a long TD..... something.

You're starting to sound like me, Rav :D

I was so down on this pick last year. Thinking of Shonn Green in the 3rd makes me even more sick to my stomach :sick:

Then I recall that I wanted Orakpo, Maualuga, and Green. This team could have had all three.

This year I was pleasantly surprised by Moreno. But at this point it is clear he is injury prone and probably always will be. The 100 yard game might not happen....:sad:

honz
09-24-2010, 10:15 PM
Elvis Dumervil is injury prone too. So is Champ Bailey. Jarvis Moss. Lendale White. Goodman. McBath. Barrett. Woodyard. Orton. Tebow. I think our whole damn team is injury prone based on what people are saying here.

Yes, it's frustrating that he missed camp last year and this year, but he was never injured in college and is missing his first regular season game. Let's stay in reality here.

dogfish
09-24-2010, 10:32 PM
wow, honz, just wow. . .

Bosco
09-24-2010, 10:55 PM
Elvis Dumervil is injury prone too. So is Champ Bailey. Jarvis Moss. Lendale White. Goodman. McBath. Barrett. Woodyard. Orton. Tebow. I think our whole damn team is injury prone based on what people are saying here.

Yes, it's frustrating that he missed camp last year and this year, but he was never injured in college and is missing his first regular season game. Let's stay in reality here.

Reality and sports fans, especially rabid ones like Denver, just don't go together. Emotion and hysteria is the modus operandi for most. Case in point is the whole "injury prone" label. 95% of the time it's completely misapplied but you can bet that any player who has more than one injury in the span of a few seasons will see that label tossed at him.

Look no further than Ryan Harris for proof. The injury that has people throwing the label at him was the result of a 250lb running back with a head of steam rolling up onto his ankle. That trauma is far behind the capability of anyone's body to absorb unscathed and it's one of the most common injuries for offensive linemen to suffer, but do you think people take that into consideration? Of course not.

silkamilkamonico
09-24-2010, 11:05 PM
This is unbelievable. What are your expectations? Unless you thought we were getting Jim Brown or Walter Payton I don't know how anyone would call his time here pathetic or trade him for a 5th round pick at this point.

Attention all future Broncos first round picks: if you aren't an immediate pro bowler/all pro you're in for it. We don't care if you get hurt or have a sorry supporting cast, we expect immediate greatness. And if we didn't think you were worth the pick in the first place we will be even more unforgiving and biased towards your failure to prove ourselves right.

I cannot believe how bad your reading comprehension is. Nobody has suggested cutting him, and nobody is suggesting he needs to be Jim Brown. What you're failing to understand, is this guy was the 12th overall pick, and he's an above average RB at best. You use a 12th overall pick on a gu like AD, or Chris Johnson, not an above average RB.

And again, he isn't powerful, he isn't quick, and he isn't speedy. He's the type of RB that has the same qualities that 70% of other RB's have. If we would have used a 3rd round pick like he plays like, people wouldn't be so upset.

BeefStew25
09-24-2010, 11:36 PM
Hey folks, we have two hamstings for a reason. Ok? I threw the shot put during pearl harbor, folks.

Lonestar
09-25-2010, 12:12 AM
If we traded noshow for a fifth round pick I'd feel like we ripped the other team off. He has been nothing short of pathetic to date for Denver. Undrafted Mike Bell is five times the rb noshow is.
What is it with Mcd's rb's? Why are they all made of glass?

I know your funning everyone.

While he s ot broken the long one yet.

Last year he had almost 900 yards behind really pathetic OLINE and a QB that was less than creative.

Show me a better rookie RB last year and then we can talk.

I do remember seeing him break multiple tackles last week and gaining some 20+ yards one ONE run. Considering the lack of blocking I thought he did pretty good.
Lets see if I have this correct

OLT playing about 85%
OLG first game ever in the NFL
OC second game ever in the NFL
ORG do not remember
ORT second Game ever in NFL

Not exactly a great resume in front of them.

Italianmobstr7
09-25-2010, 12:25 AM
:lol:

Dude seriously. You want to challenge my opinion on a player im cool with that. But too try and make it personal or paint me as some "hater" is weak and below you. I dont hate Knowshon nor the Bulldogs so that has ZERO to do with it. I just dont like what ive seen from him so far and whatever "highlights" he has is far and in between for a guy taken at #12. Does our Oline have some issues? Yes, but nowhere near as you guys are trying to claim. Knowshon will still have some time to prove his worth but right now with his injury bug im just not sold on him. Until he proves otherwise there wont be much to change my stance on that.

Fair enough. Just seems to me like you've dislike him for a while so I wasn't sure if you were like an SEC fan who is bitter about him since college. He's been a pretty good running back behind a pretty porous offensive line. Say it's good all you want but most of the time we haven't had our starting right side of our line and this year we're starting 2 rookies and another guy who has never played as a starter. It's not all on Knowshon.

ChampWJ
09-25-2010, 01:23 AM
I cannot believe how bad your reading comprehension is. Nobody has suggested cutting him, and nobody is suggesting he needs to be Jim Brown. What you're failing to understand, is this guy was the 12th overall pick, and he's an above average RB at best. You use a 12th overall pick on a gu like AD, or Chris Johnson, not an above average RB.

And again, he isn't powerful, he isn't quick, and he isn't speedy. He's the type of RB that has the same qualities that 70% of other RB's have. If we would have used a 3rd round pick like he plays like, people wouldn't be so upset.

I'm not failing to understand anything, and I can read just fine thank you. There is a negative bias towards Moreno because he didn't instantly achieve greatness, which I see as unreasonable. I also think it's absurd to think we have already seen Moreno at his peak. No one can predict his ceiling or how the rest of his career is going to go.

You can't fault McDaniels for picking Moreno where he picked him. Go look at his college tape and tell me he didn't have just as many highlights and mean just as much to his team as Adrian Peterson did or really any high picked running back. You can't dispute that he had a phenomenal two years at Georgia against top notch competition. He was almost always the best player on the field for an offense featuring a #1 overall pick. Stafford regularly underachieved or didn't show up to games in which Moreno ended up carrying the offense.

McDaniels had no way of knowing Moreno would get hurt or his offensive line would be such a turnstile. He had no history of injuries. The draft pick was completely justifiable based on the information at the time. All you can do is hope for good health and put your players in a position to best achieve their potential. Both of those things have not happened.

And as far as your evaluations of he isn't this, or can't do this, why don't we wait until he is finally 100% before making those types of statements about his game. Injury bugs can be overcome and do not have to define one's career. Just ask Frank Gore.

DenBronx
09-25-2010, 07:52 AM
I cannot believe how bad your reading comprehension is. Nobody has suggested cutting him, and nobody is suggesting he needs to be Jim Brown. What you're failing to understand, is this guy was the 12th overall pick, and he's an above average RB at best. You use a 12th overall pick on a gu like AD, or Chris Johnson, not an above average RB.

And again, he isn't powerful, he isn't quick, and he isn't speedy. He's the type of RB that has the same qualities that 70% of other RB's have. If we would have used a 3rd round pick like he plays like, people wouldn't be so upset.



No, you use a 7th overall pick on a guy like Adrian Peterson. Pre 2007 the Broncos wasn't used to losing so seeing a top 10 pick was very rare and still is for us. No way in hell you ever get to pick a for sure talent like him unless you lose.

The next year Chris Johnson comes out and 4 RB's went before him. 23 teams passed on Chris Johnson because they believed he wasn't durable. That's Darren McFadden, Johnathan Stewart, Felix Jones and Rashard Mendenhall who all went before Johnson. This is the same year we needed a franchise LT and we were spot on by picking Clady.

Our options at RB in 2009 were extremely thin in the first. Many scouts had Beanie Wells ranked much higher than Moreno. Moreno was picked 12th overall followed by Donald Brown and Beanie Wells both late in the 1st. Any other RB that year was considered a 2nd round or later back by most scouts. It's easy now to say McCoy or Greene would have been better in the 3rd. Hindsight is always fun. I for one had Greene in many of my mock drafts in the 3rd because I wanted Orakpo in the 1st and not Moreno. Even Mayock was shocked on draft day that we went offense but since we did go RB Moreno he was by far the better option according to the ranks.


Saying that through two games Moreno is responsible for 81.3 percent of the 224 yards from scrimmage amassed by Denver’s running backs the last two weeks.

In no way am I saying he's a Chris Johnson or AD but he isn't exactlly dropping the ball. He is having production in other areas and when we finally get the 3 headed monster going of Moreno, Bucky and Maroney going you might see the YPC go up...which seems to be most everyone's complaint.

broncofaninfla
09-25-2010, 08:21 AM
With Bucks history he'll likely be injured be halftime, followed by the gimpy duo of Maroney and Brown. Our rb's are made of glass. We need a whole new stable of rb's to ever have a succesful running game in this current scheme.

silkamilkamonico
09-25-2010, 08:52 AM
No, you use a 7th overall pick on a guy like Adrian Peterson. Pre 2007 the Broncos wasn't used to losing so seeing a top 10 pick was very rare and still is for us. No way in hell you ever get to pick a for sure talent like him unless you lose.

The next year Chris Johnson comes out and 4 RB's went before him. 23 teams passed on Chris Johnson because they believed he wasn't durable. That's Darren McFadden, Johnathan Stewart, Felix Jones and Rashard Mendenhall who all went before Johnson. This is the same year we needed a franchise LT and we were spot on by picking Clady.

Our options at RB in 2009 were extremely thin in the first. Many scouts had Beanie Wells ranked much higher than Moreno. Moreno was picked 12th overall followed by Donald Brown and Beanie Wells both late in the 1st. Any other RB that year was considered a 2nd round or later back by most scouts. It's easy now to say McCoy or Greene would have been better in the 3rd. Hindsight is always fun. I for one had Greene in many of my mock drafts in the 3rd because I wanted Orakpo in the 1st and not Moreno. Even Mayock was shocked on draft day that we went offense but since we did go RB Moreno he was by far the better option according to the ranks.


Saying that through two games Moreno is responsible for 81.3 percent of the 224 yards from scrimmage amassed by Denver’s running backs the last two weeks.

In no way am I saying he's a Chris Johnson or AD but he isn't exactlly dropping the ball. He is having production in other areas and when we finally get the 3 headed monster going of Moreno, Bucky and Maroney going you might see the YPC go up...which seems to be most everyone's complaint.[/

He couldn't even average 4.0 ypc last year. Correll buckhalter didn't have any problems avering 5.4 ypc last year. Then again, while Knowshon isn't a bad RB by any means, he sure isn't as explosive as Correll Buckhalter.

According to your argunent, we spent the 12th overall pick on a guy that, when everything is set in place, can contribute along with 2 other RB's and become 33% of a 3 headed monster.

That's everyone's complaint, and a legitimate one at that.

robert ethan
09-25-2010, 11:08 AM
I would have backed off on Moreno just from his Combine numbers. Speed: 4.6 for a 217 pound RB is pedestrian. Strength: 25 reps at 225 for a stocky guy with shorter arms is average. Agility: Dan Gronkowski (at 6-6, 260 pounds) had the same numbers in the agility tests, and he went in the seventh round. Either Moreno is not very athletic or he couldn't be bothered to train for the event. Which amounts to the same thing basically.

spikerman
09-25-2010, 11:30 AM
After seeing that McDaniels' scheme doesn't focus as much on the run I guess I would ask if taking a running back at # 12 was the best choice - especially with all of the other areas this team needed (and still needs) to address.

IMO you draft difference makers at #12. With the lack of emphasis on the run game I'm sure the Broncos could have waited until a later round to draft a running back.

PAINTERDAVE
09-25-2010, 11:34 AM
I hope the best for Knowshon...
and our Bronocos.

That said...

they guy has not really ever been through an entire training camp.

He held out his first season... waiting to sign his rookie contract.
He missed all of this camp with the inury.

Perhaps next year if he he is healthy and participates in all the off season stuff...
and undergoes the entire pre-season/training camp...

maybe then he will be the best he can be.

CHARLIEADAMSFAN
09-25-2010, 11:42 AM
I hope the best for Knowshon...
and our Bronocos.

That said...

they guy has not really ever been through an entire training camp.

He held out his first season... waiting to sign his rookie contract.
He missed all of this camp with the inury.

Perhaps next year if he he is healthy and participates in all the off season stuff...
and undergoes the entire pre-season/training camp...

maybe then he will be the best he can be.

Agreed. Kinda regret buying his jersey. Thought it would be cool, after the way last year ended I wanted to have the new player, for a fresh start.

DenBronx
09-25-2010, 11:47 AM
He couldn't even average 4.0 ypc last year. Correll buckhalter didn't have any problems avering 5.4 ypc last year. Then again, while Knowshon isn't a bad RB by any means, he sure isn't as explosive as Correll Buckhalter.

According to your argunent, we spent the 12th overall pick on a guy that, when everything is set in place, can contribute along with 2 other RB's and become 33% of a 3 headed monster.

That's everyone's complaint, and a legitimate one at that.


That was last year. Bucky is averaging less than 2.0 YPC this year. This year we have a couple of rookies that are still learning on the go and everyone else on the OLine is pretty much banged up. When they all heal and finally get to play past two weeks together I think the lanes will open.

DenBronx
09-25-2010, 11:57 AM
After seeing that McDaniels' scheme doesn't focus as much on the run I guess I would ask if taking a running back at # 12 was the best choice - especially with all of the other areas this team needed (and still needs) to address.

IMO you draft difference makers at #12. With the lack of emphasis on the run game I'm sure the Broncos could have waited until a later round to draft a running back.

Looking back, no it wasn't the best choice. We desperately needed help on defense. If we would have went Brian Orakpo, Brian Cushing or Clay Matthews at 12 Moreno might have been there anyway at 18. I like Ayers but could you imagine Clay Matthews AND Dume on the same team? Heck we could have went defense and defense here and shored up some problems here for years.

spikerman
09-25-2010, 12:08 PM
Looking back, no it wasn't the best choice. We desperately needed help on defense. If we would have went Brian Orakpo, Brian Cushing or Clay Matthews at 12 Moreno might have been there anyway at 18. I like Ayers but could you imagine Clay Matthews AND Dume on the same team? Heck we could have went defense and defense here and shored up some problems here for years.

I agree. At the time I didn't like the selection. It was nothing against Moreno, I just thought (and still do) that the team had bigger needs - like addressing the front 7 on defense.

jhildebrand
09-25-2010, 12:20 PM
Elvis Dumervil is injury prone too. So is Champ Bailey. Jarvis Moss. Lendale White. Goodman. McBath. Barrett. Woodyard. Orton. Tebow. I think our whole damn team is injury prone based on what people are saying here.



Moreno is injury prone. To insinuate Champ is as well is simply silly and a poor attempt at logic. Champ didn't miss a single game until his 6th season.

Woodyard, McBath, Barrett (who isn't even on our team :lol:) and LenDale weren't drafted at #12 in the first round by this team.

Furthermore, the Moreno pick looked bad the minute the selection was made last year! To make matters worse, many in the local media speculated, myself included, that McD's insistance to not play McD had more to do with his fear of the Moreno pick looking worse not to mention Hillis outperforming him.

I think the major concern here is the guy continues to get hurt at practice! He is getting hurt at a time when the contact nor the speed are as intense as the games. While he may not have been hurt in college the fact is he has been injured here or playing hurt literally since the first day.

Finally, other posters have already mentioned the problem with Moreno at #12. He has no one single attribute that blows you away. He isn't fast, he isn't a bruiser, he isn't going to break 60 yard TD's.

He has yet to even gain a 100 yard game. Its a poor use of the #12 pick when you consider the larger issues this team had at the time and the fact there was much better info on guys like Shonn Green or LeSean McCoy who went much later.

jhildebrand
09-25-2010, 12:23 PM
Reality and sports fans, especially rabid ones like Denver, just don't go together. Emotion and hysteria is the modus operandi for most. Case in point is the whole "injury prone" label. 95% of the time it's completely misapplied but you can bet that any player who has more than one injury in the span of a few seasons will see that label tossed at him.

Look no further than Ryan Harris for proof. The injury that has people throwing the label at him was the result of a 250lb running back with a head of steam rolling up onto his ankle. That trauma is far behind the capability of anyone's body to absorb unscathed and it's one of the most common injuries for offensive linemen to suffer, but do you think people take that into consideration? Of course not.

Coming from a guy who labeled Hillis as stupid (yet refuses to apply the same logic to a McD pick in Quinn). :rolleyes:

IIRC, you also called Hillis injury prone.

Denver fans are smart enough to distinguish injuries and the situations in which they occured. Foot injuries, especially for linemen, are ALWAYS a problem. Being injured in a game vs practice are also worthy of distinction. At this point, Moreno continues to get his boo boos in practice.

ChampWJ
09-25-2010, 12:26 PM
That was last year. Bucky is averaging less than 2.0 YPC this year. This year we have a couple of rookies that are still learning on the go and everyone else on the OLine is pretty much banged up. When they all heal and finally get to play past two weeks together I think the lanes will open.

No, there is no hope. There's been plenty of time to evaluate him and it's clear how his career will play out.

It's obvious Knowshon will never:
-get healthy
-develop
-break a 20 yard run
-gain 100 yards in a game
-average more than 4 yards per carry
-get better blocking
-be anything more than an average back
-live up to his draft slot

Not my opinion, but unfortunately that's the opinion many Broncos fans are beginning to adopt about Moreno. :tsk:

jhildebrand
09-25-2010, 12:32 PM
No, there is no hope. There's been plenty of time to evaluate him and it's clear how his career will play out.

It's obvious Knowshon will never:
-get healthy
-develop
-break a 20 yard run
-gain 100 yards in a game
-average more than 4 yards per carry
-get better blocking
-be anything more than an average back
-live up to his draft slot

Not my opinion, but unfortunately that's the opinion many Broncos fans are beginning to adopt about Moreno. :tsk:

Well in all fairness, people supporting Moreno and McD are playing both sides of the fence on this one. First the claim is we can't judge Moreno because there are so many other issues i.e. the line.

If you believe that to be true then wouldn't it make more sense to address those issues first? :confused: McDaniels knew he wanted a power running scheme, why not draft the line help then?

Then there is the belief, by many, that McD took Moreno knowing the Chargers wanted him.

Even former pros like Alfred Williams and Mark Schlereth have said there has been enough time to evaluate Moreno and they both feel he will always be what we have seen.

Finally, I'll be the first to admit that the Shanahan system plays a role in this too in that we got spoiled by plugging in ANY RB and seeing them make HUGE contributions.

DenBronx
09-25-2010, 12:38 PM
No, there is no hope. There's been plenty of time to evaluate him and it's clear how his career will play out.

It's obvious Knowshon will never:
-get healthy
-develop
-break a 20 yard run
-gain 100 yards in a game
-average more than 4 yards per carry
-get better blocking
-be anything more than an average back
-live up to his draft slot

Not my opinion, but unfortunately that's the opinion many Broncos fans are beginning to adopt about Moreno. :tsk:


That's half of the posters here. Even when we win there's a pick-a-part a player rally that goes on after each game. Moreno hasn't had the monster rushing game yet so people are throwing rocks heading into week 3. Even though he isn't healthy.

Buff
09-25-2010, 01:02 PM
Moreno lacks breakaway speed. That's his biggest problem IMO. Along with his durability. He's shows good change of direction skills, soft hands and can even break a few tackles.

He just wasn't worthy of the 12 overall pick, which is why he catches a lot of flack, but that doesn't mean he is a bad RB either.

Elevation inc
09-25-2010, 01:12 PM
That's half of the posters here. Even when we win there's a pick-a-part a player rally that goes on after each game. Moreno hasn't had the monster rushing game yet so people are throwing rocks heading into week 3. Even though he isn't healthy.

certainly isnt a suprise to see people doing it..patience is not a virtue among many fans.......

Elevation inc
09-25-2010, 01:24 PM
Looking back, no it wasn't the best choice. We desperately needed help on defense. If we would have went Brian Orakpo, Brian Cushing or Clay Matthews at 12 Moreno might have been there anyway at 18. I like Ayers but could you imagine Clay Matthews AND Dume on the same team? Heck we could have went defense and defense here and shored up some problems here for years.

actually orakpo is a horrible fit for the 3-4, he cant cover or play the run....and we had doom forecasted there already and needed a SOLB hence robert ayers. brian cushing had huge character concerns because of his steriod past and that has since been proven and im sure glad we didnt spend such a high pick on him.....and clay matthews by all accounts was the worst of the bunch and was not a top 15 pick, according to everyone....

people are blinded there will always be we should have gotten this guy or that guy, but we aint fortune tellers so know one knows how good they would actually do when they got here.

thats why i could care less where moreno was picked especially at 12, MCd's only bludners in my eyes regarding the draft were trading for phonz how he did, wasting picks for richard quinn, and reaching for beadles(but this one may turn out better than i thought)

i am not close to the boat where moreno isnt living up to his billing as the 12th pick.....im starting to get real concerned about his injuries for sure, but performance well check this out and you will see why i cut moreno some slack at times


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7XIeCif1ss


I SEE FAR MORE CRAPPY OL PLAY THAN I DO BY MORENO......

T.K.O.
09-25-2010, 01:47 PM
maybe this andre brown cat will turn out ok and surprise some people.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9kYqvdEl_Q

that run at 1:48 shows some power....i like the guy's flat refusal to go down !:salute:

Bosco
09-25-2010, 02:31 PM
I would have backed off on Moreno just from his Combine numbers. Speed: 4.6 for a 217 pound RB is pedestrian. Strength: 25 reps at 225 for a stocky guy with shorter arms is average. Agility: Dan Gronkowski (at 6-6, 260 pounds) had the same numbers in the agility tests, and he went in the seventh round. Either Moreno is not very athletic or he couldn't be bothered to train for the event. Which amounts to the same thing basically.

Yeah, because 40 times are really relevant for running backs.


Coming from a guy who labeled Hillis as stupid (yet refuses to apply the same logic to a McD pick in Quinn). :rolleyes: Didn't you already concede to me on this point? I'm pretty sure you did.


IIRC, you also called Hillis injury prone. I doubt that. Got a link?


Denver fans are smart enough to distinguish injuries and the situations in which they occured. Being injured in a game vs practice are also worthy of distinction. Apparently not, because this is a simple hamstring injury and people are still flipping out over it. This isn't an injury that needs game speed and intensity to happen. Hell, I've pulled a hamstring when I was mowing my lawn, and I'm in pretty good physical condition myself.


Foot injuries, especially for linemen, are ALWAYS a problem. And the only foot injury any of our linemen dealt with was Ryan's dislocated toe which has apparently healed completely.


At this point, Moreno continues to get his boo boos in practice. He's only had two of them, both of which were hamstrings.

Northman
09-25-2010, 02:39 PM
This is unbelievable. What are your expectations? Unless you thought we were getting Jim Brown or Walter Payton I don't know how anyone would call his time here pathetic or trade him for a 5th round pick at this point.

Attention all future Broncos first round picks: if you aren't an immediate pro bowler/all pro you're in for it. We don't care if you get hurt or have a sorry supporting cast, we expect immediate greatness. And if we didn't think you were worth the pick in the first place we will be even more unforgiving and biased towards your failure to prove ourselves right.

Well, obviously McD has no problem trading away pro bowl players anyway so what difference would it make?. :lol:

Northman
09-25-2010, 02:47 PM
I agree. At the time I didn't like the selection. It was nothing against Moreno, I just thought (and still do) that the team had bigger needs - like addressing the front 7 on defense.

Same here, there were a SLEW of good running backs in that draft that we could of taken much later.

Northman
09-25-2010, 02:52 PM
certainly isnt a suprise to see people doing it..patience is not a virtue among many fans.......


That kind of happens when your team starts to suck for a while unfortuantely. I think people want to see improvement early because they dont want the Broncos to end up like the Lions, Bengals, and Browns where they go decades being bottom feeders.

Buff
09-25-2010, 02:58 PM
Yeah, because 40 times are really relevant for running backs.

I think Knowshon is proof that they are extremely relevant, especially at the RB position.

Bosco
09-25-2010, 03:10 PM
I think Knowshon is proof that they are extremely relevant, especially at the RB position.

Terrell Davis says hello.

Buff
09-25-2010, 03:16 PM
Terrell Davis says hello.

There are always a few exceptions to the rule, but you can't teach speed.

turftoad
09-25-2010, 03:25 PM
Terrell Davis says hello.

Comparing Moreno to Davis now are we? :shocked:

Bosco
09-25-2010, 03:34 PM
There are always a few exceptions to the rule, but you can't teach speed.

And the rule has always been that 40 times are pretty irrelevant for running backs. It has NEVER been any kind of accurate predictor of the success a running back will have. The only positions that it really does matter for is receivers and corners. Those are the only guys on the field who come close to running 40 yard sprints in straight lines.

Of course the absurdity in all of this is that the guy many people here wanted instead of Moreno (Shonn Greene) is significantly slower than Knowshon.

Buff
09-25-2010, 03:41 PM
And the rule has always been that 40 times are pretty irrelevant for running backs. It has NEVER been any kind of accurate predictor of the success a running back will have. The only positions that it really does matter for is receivers and corners. Those are the only guys on the field who come close to running 40 yard sprints in straight lines.

Of course the absurdity in all of this is that the guy many people here wanted instead of Moreno (Shonn Greene) is significantly slower than Knowshon.

Greene and Moreno are both 4.6 guys. Greene is not significantly slower.

I think too much is made of the 40-yard dash nowadays, but I also think you're wrong to completely dismiss 40 times and act like they are a non-factor. Speed is a big determining factor in whether a RB will be successful in the NFL against faster competition. It's not the only factor, there is something to be said for game speed with pads on, but you can't just dismiss it.

PAINTERDAVE
09-25-2010, 03:53 PM
Agreed. Kinda regret buying his jersey. Thought it would be cool, after the way last year ended I wanted to have the new player, for a fresh start.

I know how you feel.
A good friend bought me a jersey...
Off hand I said.."How about Cutler?" Thinking he'd be here a long time.

Looking back on it... I wish I had said...

"Darent Williams".

He'll be a Bronco forever.

Bosco
09-25-2010, 04:07 PM
Greene and Moreno are both 4.6 guys. Greene is not significantly slower. Incorrect. Moreno, depending on which event you take his numbers from, is a high 4.4 to mid 4.5 guy, with a 4.5 flat as his combine number. Shonn Greene is the guy who ran a 4.62.

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/prospectrankings/TSX/2009_RB?&_1:col_1=13&_1:col_2=14


I think too much is made of the 40-yard dash nowadays, but I also think you're wrong to completely dismiss 40 times and act like they are a non-factor. Speed is a big determining factor in whether a RB will be successful in the NFL against faster competition. It's not the only factor, there is something to be said for game speed with pads on, but you can't just dismiss it. The only time that 40 times would be relevant for running backs is when they are at the extreme high or low ends of the spectrum. Moreno is neither.

T.K.O.
09-25-2010, 04:24 PM
on the bright side...
andre brown rb 6'0" 224 lbs
combine stats
40 yd dash...4.32 & 4.37
24 reps @ 225 lbs
37" vert
avg ypc in college 4.85
:salute:
this guy is a power runner and might just be what our running game has been missing:beer:

Tned
09-25-2010, 04:28 PM
on the bright side...
andre brown rb 6'0" 224 lbs
combine stats
40 yd dash...4.32 & 4.37
24 reps @ 225 lbs
37" vert
avg ypc in college 4.85
:salute:
this guy is a power runner and might just be what our running game has been missing:beer:

Hmmm, those 40 times are faster than I remember seeing.

Buff
09-25-2010, 04:33 PM
Incorrect. Moreno, depending on which event you take his numbers from, is a high 4.4 to mid 4.5 guy, with a 4.5 flat as his combine number. Shonn Greene is the guy who ran a 4.62.

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/prospectrankings/TSX/2009_RB?&_1:col_1=13&_1:col_2=14

The only time that 40 times would be relevant for running backs is when they are at the extreme high or low ends of the spectrum. Moreno is neither.

There are conflicting 40 times all over the net. I don't think Moreno is a 4.4-4.5 guy on his best day.

His Georgia pro day (which typically has the most favorable times) he ran a 4.55 and a 4.63. The point is, he is not fast as far as NFL backs go, and he is only marginally faster than Shonn Greene, if at all.

http://www.knowshonzone.com/knowshon-moreno-at-the-nfl-combine/

T.K.O.
09-25-2010, 04:40 PM
Hmmm, those 40 times are faster than I remember seeing.

http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=11382&draftyear=2009&genpos=RB

T.K.O.
09-25-2010, 04:45 PM
here is a very comprehensive look at brown if anybody's interested:salute:
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/players/584399

LRtagger
09-25-2010, 05:25 PM
Nobody is going to gain lots of yards behind our patchwork Oline. Especially when D's are putting 8 in the box and giving single coverage on the outside.

Its also frustrating how we almost never run out of the spread/shotgun formation. The one time last week I remember us running out of the spread was on 3rd and goal when Buck scored basically untouched. Otherwise, we always run out of power/pro formations and always pass out of spread formations. Its extremely frustrating to watch.

But Moreno runs hard and runs his tail off. And he does some nice things when he gets in space. Problem is, he can never get into space because he gets swallowed at the LOS. We need to run more counters and screens to get him the ball in the open field. Running stretch plays out of 1WR sets with our Oline is borderline retarded.

turftoad
09-25-2010, 05:28 PM
Moreno made a great play on that screen last week. However, after he hurdled that guy he showed no burst or second gear.

He did make positive yards though, always a plus.

I do like Brown and Maroney. I think we'll be fine.

Dean
09-25-2010, 06:36 PM
Since we are back arguing that the line is the source of Moreno's lack of production once again I'll repost what Buckhalter had to say. After all he was in the meetings with the coaches and video.

http://www.nfltouchdown.com/exclusive-nfltouchdowncom%E2%80%99s-interview-with-denver-broncos-running-back-correll-buckhalter/


[QUOTE]
“Me and Knowshon actually had different packages. When we were down on the goal line that was mainly him. Knowshon he really fits that. But at the same time it’s a learning process. He just needs to get all the reads down, it’s a part of the game.

“He’s a strong runner but he’s young and was missing reads and stuff but he will be better this year.”

LRtagger
09-25-2010, 07:08 PM
Since we are back arguing that the line is the source of Moreno's lack of production once again I'll repost what Buckhalter had to say. After all he was in the meetings with the coaches and video.

http://www.nfltouchdown.com/exclusive-nfltouchdowncom%E2%80%99s-interview-with-denver-broncos-running-back-correll-buckhalter/




“Me and Knowshon actually had different packages. When we were down on the goal line that was mainly him. Knowshon he really fits that. But at the same time it’s a learning process. He just needs to get all the reads down, it’s a part of the game.

“He’s a strong runner but he’s young and was missing reads and stuff but he will be better this year.”


Hmm I wonder if Buckhalter would say he has regressed this year and is missing reads...considering his 2.0YPC. BY FAR the worst of his career.

Or maybe it has a little to do with our injured LT, first year starter LG, rookie C, injured RG, rookie RT.

Yea he missed reads last year. He was a rookie. But there's a reason Hamilton was benched and then cut. There's a reason Polumbus and Weigman were cut. Also, since we are pulling out quotes, here's one from our own coach. He was probably pretty involved in film sessions as well:

http://www.nfl.com/news/story?id=09000d5d81566e9d&template=with-video-with-comments&confirm=true


If we're not winning the line of scrimmage, like I said before, it doesn't matter what back you have, doesn't matter who you're handing the ball to, you're not going to do a whole lot," said McDaniels, whose team is teetering on the edge of playoff elimination after a 6-0 start. "I'm not taking blame off the backs because they certainly can do a better job of reading certain plays and all the rest of that, but it starts with what we do up front

jhildebrand
09-25-2010, 07:14 PM
Of course the absurdity in all of this is that the guy many people here wanted instead of Moreno (Shonn Greene) is significantly slower than Knowshon.

Call me when Moreno can run like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFCiPA9Comw

pFCiPA9Comw

Call me when Moreno can do this! :lol: Looks fast enough to me.

It's laughable to decry Shonn Greene in any fashion considering he was taken in the third round. People have made it abundantly clear, this is more about the value of Moreno at 12 moreso than saying he is a bad RB.

Edmonton Bronco Fan
09-25-2010, 07:18 PM
How about we just wait and see how he does during the remainder of the season before questioning his value @ #12?

Seems to make the most sense to me.

jhildebrand
09-25-2010, 07:21 PM
How about we just wait and see how he does during the remainder of the season before questioning his value @ #12?

Seems to make the most sense to me.

Seems to me if former pros including Alfred Williams and Mark Schlereth feel there is enough to judge him on then it is good enough for me.

Besides, I think it is a bit hypocritical by most to take this stance. After all, it was enough of a body of work to label Hillis dumb and no good with fewer games. Why should we have more patience with Moreno? :confused:

Day1BroncoFan
09-25-2010, 07:24 PM
Bottom line for me is Moreno better turn it on this year or he's off my list. Doesn't mean I won't root for him as a Bronco but I won't be happy about it.

We'll see.

Northman
09-25-2010, 07:35 PM
Hmm I wonder if Buckhalter would say he has regressed this year and is missing reads...considering his 2.0YPC. BY FAR the worst of his career.

Or maybe it has a little to do with our injured LT, first year starter LG, rookie C, injured RG, rookie RT.

Yea he missed reads last year. He was a rookie. But there's a reason Hamilton was benched and then cut. There's a reason Polumbus and Weigman were cut. Also, since we are pulling out quotes, here's one from our own coach. He was probably pretty involved in film sessions as well:

http://www.nfl.com/news/story?id=09000d5d81566e9d&template=with-video-with-comments&confirm=true

Damn, why you got to bust on Bucky man? He's just being honest. Support the player dude.

Northman
09-25-2010, 07:36 PM
How about we just wait and see how he does during the remainder of the season before questioning his value @ #12?

Seems to make the most sense to me.

I agree. Tned, close the forum now and re-open it at the end of the year. Wait....

DenBronx
09-25-2010, 08:19 PM
Call me when Moreno can run like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFCiPA9Comw


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Call me when Moreno can do this! :lol: Looks fast enough to me.

It's laughable to decry Shonn Greene in any fashion considering he was taken in the third round. People have made it abundantly clear, this is more about the value of Moreno at 12 moreso than saying he is a bad RB.



I'd rather be called when he runs like this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3HtvBdam5A&feature=related

Terrell Davis...6.7 YPC :cool:

ChampWJ
09-25-2010, 08:23 PM
How can you hold where a player gets drafted against the player? You can blame Knowshon for dominating the SEC for 2 years and being rated a consensus first rounder. The Broncos happened to hold the 12th pick that year and Josh Mcdaniels decided to take him. So fault Mcdaniels if you don't like it but don't hold his decision against Moreno. That's absurd.

Also, I remember McDaniels talking about how shocked they were to get the two guys they had targeted all along. I don't hear a lot of complaints about Ayers so far despite his limited contributions. Why does Ayers get extra time to develop? Hell Ayers did even less in college to warrant being a first round pick. Even if they had been picked in the opposite order Knowshon would still be the one receiving all the criticism.

DenBronx
09-25-2010, 08:30 PM
How can you hold where a player gets drafted against the player? You can blame Knowshon for dominating the SEC for 2 years and being rated a consensus first rounder. The Broncos happened to hold the 12th pick that year and Josh Mcdaniels decided to take him. So fault Mcdaniels if you don't like it but don't hold his decision against Moreno. That's absurd.

Also, I remember McDaniels talking about how shocked they were to get the two guys they had targeted all along. I don't hear a lot of complaints about Ayers so far despite his limited contributions. Why does Ayers get extra time to develop? Hell Ayers did even less in college to warrant being a first round pick. Even if they had been picked in the opposite order Knowshon would still be the one receiving all the criticism.


All good points.



Ayers does get alot of criticism though. Ayers/Tebow are future developmental type players. We drafted them with the expectations of letting them develop 2 years or so. Most scouts said Ayers had the most upside but it would take 2-3 years to show at the next level.

Moreno on the other hand was scouting to be NFL ready from the get go. Guys like Moreno need to produce year 1, especially with the average lifespan of an NFL back being 5 years or less. Any back taken in the top 15 should be ready.

BroncoWave
09-25-2010, 08:38 PM
How can you hold where a player gets drafted against the player? You can blame Knowshon for dominating the SEC for 2 years and being rated a consensus first rounder. The Broncos happened to hold the 12th pick that year and Josh Mcdaniels decided to take him. So fault Mcdaniels if you don't like it but don't hold his decision against Moreno. That's absurd.


I was about to post the EXACT same thing. I think it's absolutely retarded when people say a guy sucks because he's not preforming to the level of his draft position. Like Moreno had ANY control over where he was drafted.

I Eat Staples
09-25-2010, 08:56 PM
Elvis Dumervil is injury prone too. So is Champ Bailey. Jarvis Moss. Lendale White. Goodman. McBath. Barrett. Woodyard. Orton. Tebow. I think our whole damn team is injury prone based on what people are saying here.

Yes, it's frustrating that he missed camp last year and this year, but he was never injured in college and is missing his first regular season game. Let's stay in reality here.

Dumervil had one fluke injury. Champ Bailey is injury prone at this point of his career. He wasn't when he was Moreno's age. Moss sucks anyway. White isn't really injury prone, just this one big one. Goodman isn't injury prone. McBath isn't injury prone. Barrett isn't. Not sure about Woodyard, dude barely plays as is. Orton is injury prone. Tebow isn't.

Not sure what they have to do with Moreno anyway, but one injury doesn't make you injury prone.


I would have backed off on Moreno just from his Combine numbers. Speed: 4.6 for a 217 pound RB is pedestrian. Strength: 25 reps at 225 for a stocky guy with shorter arms is average. Agility: Dan Gronkowski (at 6-6, 260 pounds) had the same numbers in the agility tests, and he went in the seventh round. Either Moreno is not very athletic or he couldn't be bothered to train for the event. Which amounts to the same thing basically.

He's not very athletic. All he can do is hurdle people. He's slow.


How can you hold where a player gets drafted against the player? You can blame Knowshon for dominating the SEC for 2 years and being rated a consensus first rounder. The Broncos happened to hold the 12th pick that year and Josh Mcdaniels decided to take him. So fault Mcdaniels if you don't like it but don't hold his decision against Moreno. That's absurd.

Also, I remember McDaniels talking about how shocked they were to get the two guys they had targeted all along. I don't hear a lot of complaints about Ayers so far despite his limited contributions. Why does Ayers get extra time to develop? Hell Ayers did even less in college to warrant being a first round pick. Even if they had been picked in the opposite order Knowshon would still be the one receiving all the criticism.

I am faulting McD. It's a known fact that he doesn't know how to draft.

As for comparing him to Ayers, college DEs typically take a while to make the switch to NFL OLBs. Most running backs make an impact immediately, as running back is the easiest transition from college to the NFL. If a RB isn't good in his first few years, he most likely never will be.

Bosco
09-25-2010, 09:22 PM
There are conflicting 40 times all over the net. I don't think Moreno is a 4.4-4.5 guy on his best day. Those are combine numbers taken from what is unquestionably the most credible of any draft site available to the public.


The point is, he is not fast as far as NFL backs go, and he is only marginally faster than Shonn Greene, if at all. You're right. He's not blazing fast. His straight line speed is pretty average for a running back. Somehow, I doubt that little bit of information was lost on the NFL and other draftniks when they had him as a consensus top 15 pick.


Call me when Moreno can run like this: And you can call me when Moreno has 3/5ths of the AFC's Pro Bowl offensive line opening holes for him like that.


It's laughable to decry Shonn Greene in any fashion considering he was taken in the third round. People have made it abundantly clear, this is more about the value of Moreno at 12 moreso than saying he is a bad RB. And that's because Moreno is a vastly superior talent to Shonn Grenne. This is reflected in their production to date. Of course it's also worth mentioning that Moreno possesses two traits (intelligence and receiving ability) that Greene does not and those two traits are very important to Josh McDaniels. We already had one big and powerful running back with intelligence issues on our roster at the time, and at least that one could catch the ball, so what would have been the point in taking another one?


Moreno on the other hand was scouting to be NFL ready from the get go. Guys like Moreno need to produce year 1, especially with the average lifespan of an NFL back being 5 years or less. Any back taken in the top 15 should be ready. Considering he was the leading rusher among all rookies despite a lingering MCL injury and porous offensive line, I'd say he produced from year one.

Oh, and Shonn Greene is also two years older than Moreno. Something to consider when talking about their lifespans.

robert ethan
09-25-2010, 09:47 PM
..it wasn't just the speed that was lacking. If you dismiss his 40 time as irrelevant, how about his 10 yard split? Again, it was the same as Dan Gronkowski, running on the same track at the same time under the same conditions. Worse than Tim Tebow managed a year later at 240 pounds. His vertical and horizontal jumps were average at best, and his agility numbers were duplicated by players 6 inches taller and 50 pounds heavier. You just don't throw such a valuable draft pick at a skill player who doesn't show exceptional athletic ability. At the very least they should have traded back and taken a chance on getting him there. I think that the Cards got Wells at the very end of the first round, and most rated Beanie on par with Moreno.

I think the bottom line on KM's combine numbers is that they were totally predictive of a back who would average less than 4 ypc. If there was a numerical formula, Moreno fit right into that formula based on his combine results.

Bosco
09-25-2010, 10:07 PM
..it wasn't just the speed that was lacking. If you dismiss his 40 time as irrelevant, how about his 10 yard split? Again, it was the same as Dan Gronkowski, running on the same track at the same time under the same conditions. Worse than Tim Tebow managed a year later at 240 pounds. His vertical and horizontal jumps were average at best, and his agility numbers were duplicated by players 6 inches taller and 50 pounds heavier. You just don't throw such a valuable draft pick at a skill player who doesn't show exceptional athletic ability. At the very least they should have traded back and taken a chance on getting him there. I think that the Cards got Wells at the very end of the first round, and most rated Beanie on par with Moreno.

I think the bottom line on KM's combine numbers is that they were totally predictive of a back who would average less than 4 ypc. If there was a numerical formula, Moreno fit right into that formula based on his combine results.

And your analysis couldn't have been more wrong. From his scouting report...


Positives: Tight-skinned athlete with good overall musculature. Good quickness to the hole. Reads the defense and anticipates where the hole, including cutback lanes, will appear. Exceptional lateral quickness and elusiveness in tight quarters. Very rarely tackled by the first defender. Good acceleration past the initial wave of defense and into the secondary. Good spin and stiff arm, and has phenomenal leaping ability to jump over tacklers. Attacks the line of scrimmage and is a tougher interior runner than given credit for. Can drop his shoulders and has good leg drive. Runs through a lot of tackles due to his competitive drive and toughness. Keeps his legs churning and will spin away from tackles. Soft hands for the reception. Natural receiver who poses intriguing possibilities to be split out wide. Good quickness and effort as a route-runner; isn't just a threat on dump-offs in the flat or screens. Provides a pop in pass protection. Extreme competitor who can put the team on his shoulders. Wants the ball with the game on the line.


Negatives: Questionable top-end speed. Lacks the prototype size and bulk some teams are looking for in a bell-cow runner.
Athletic Ability: Moreno might lack explosion in his initial step, but he runs with a normal stride and shows steady acceleration and a short-area burst to compensate for a lack of blazing speed. He runs with very good balance and has the foot quickness to redirect on the move. He is not a sudden runner around the corner, but shows very good patience waiting for blocks to develop. He can generate a second gear to separate in the open and has the nimble feet needed to make precise lateral cuts. His loose hips and change of direction agility makes him very elusive avoiding traffic. He has nice feet and above average balance in his initial burst, doing a nice job of getting skinny to pick his way through tight creases. He keeps his feet after contact and has the pick-and-slide agility to elude when running in-line. He runs with a normal stride, but is very crisp redirecting on the move. GRADE: 7.5 And this...


ATHLETIC REPORT: GRADE: 7.52
Initial Quickness: Moreno has adequate suddenness off the snap, but shows good in-stride quickness to adjust in his direction and the loose hips and vision to change direction to find the cutback lanes. He has that extra short-area burst to get through traffic and comes out of his stance building to top speed in a hurry. He might not be explosive going long distances, but has the loose hips to redirect and separate. He shows good in-stride quickness when adjusting his direction and can clear the line of scrimmage in an instant when he keeps his pad level down. He has good body lean, but sometimes gets too high in his stance when attempting to race into the second level, failing to sidestep low blocks in the process. GRADE: 7.0

Acceleration/Burst: Moreno has a quick burst and maintains acceleration on extended runs. He might lack blazing speed, but his quickness makes him competitive. He has that body control and balance, along with loose hips to redirect and separate in the open. He doesn't have that explosion to win foot races vs. cornerbacks, but has the moves to set up the defender and elude.
GRADE: 7.4

Instincts/Balance: Moreno has very good vision on the move, instantly finding the cutback lanes. He is not the type who will dance forever in the backfield, doing a very good job of angling and getting skinny to get through tight areas. He has the ability to bounce off the tackle and make the initial defender miss, but tends to redirect to the outside more often than he should and that has led to a high amount of poor carries (tackled for a loss 22 times and stopped for no gain 35 times in 2008). He is a patient runner who gets most of his success because of his feel for the rush lanes, as it is rare to see him run into traffic. He does a very good job of setting up his blocks and shows no hesitation running through openings when he locates them.
GRADE: 8.2

Inside Running: Moreno runs inside with very good body lean and awareness, especially when picking and sliding. His short-area burst lets him bounce to the outside when the middle is clogged. He is a good downhill runner with the slippery moves and change of direction agility to get through trash. He knows how to get skinny through tight creases, but needs to improve his leg drive. He runs with good awareness and body lean, but also has the agility to bounce outside when he generates a short burst. He compensates for a lack of raw power (strength is functional) with his balance and body control running up the middle.
GRADE: 8.6

Outside Running: Moreno doesn't have the pure speed to beat the secondary defenders after turning the corner, but he does have good success starting upfield and bouncing outside, thanks to his quick burst. He is a very good stop-and-go runner whose precise cutting agility will generally see the initial tackler over-pursue. He will sometimes get too fancy and execute multiple moves, allowing the defender to recover, but he generally does a good job of following his blockers. He just needs to follow those blocks better to have success as an outside runner.
GRADE: 7.2

Elusiveness: Moreno is much more effective eluding defenders with his lateral slide and veer moves, combining them with his burst, but will never be confused for being a nifty outside runner. He is much more slippery than explosive in his stride. When he tries to make multiple moves in space, the defense has time to recover. His range and cutback agility will generally take the defenders off their feet.
GRADE: 7.7

Tackle-Breaking Strength: Moreno runs with a good pad level and has the strength on contact to break tackles, showing excellent balance and leg drive. He can push the pile on a consistent basis and is a savvy, hard-charging runner with good body control. He squares his shoulders and keeps his pad level down, making it tough for the isolated tackler to bring him down. His balance lets him keep his feet, redirect and race through the cutback lanes to gain additional yardage after contact. He can be tripped up when he gets too tall in his stance, as he does not always protect his feet from shoestring tackles. When he lowers his head, squares his shoulders and keeps his balance, he will consistently chew up big chunks of real estate.
GRADE: 7.7

Tendency to Fumble: As a freshman, this looked like an area that could have been a problem, but he reduced his fumbles by 50 percent as a sophomore. He does a much better job of protecting and holding on to the ball in traffic and upon contact since he has learned how to distribute the ball better to keep it away from the defenders to prevent fumbles. He protects the ball better running through traffic than when bouncing outside, but still struggles some when handling pitch-outs.
GRADE: 7.2

Receiving Skills: Moreno has soft, natural hands, doing a good job of catching the ball outside his frame. He has the vision to look the ball in over his outside shoulder and the cutting agility to separate after the catch. He is used mostly on controlled routes, but has the quick stride to be lined wide or in the slot. He is very effective settling in underneath and is alert to coverages (very rare to see him run into crowded spots). GRADE: 7.7

Route Running : Moreno shows good route quickness and burst to get under the throws. He appears to look fluid getting into his routes. He knows where to find the soft areas to settle under and has a good upfield stride to gain yardage after the catch. He shows good acceleration throughout his route progression and the flexibility to adjust to off-target throws.
GRADE: 7.5

Blocking Ability: Moreno is a willing blocker with a good eye for picking up the blitz. He shows good intent and aggression chipping on edge rushers and gives the quarterback enough room to operate when protecting the pocket. He will not hesitate to face up and fight for position blocking in-line and makes a determined effort to engage. He is a good contact seeker in space, taking good angles when cut blocking. The only thing he does not have much experience at is as a lead blocker.
GRADE: 6.5

Compares To: JOSEPH ADDAI, Indianapolis -- Like Addai, Moreno might lack blazing speed but he is a physical inside runner whose field vision, redirection agility and leg drive allows him to break tackles and get positive yardage up the gut. He is not much of a dancer in the backfield and shows good route running skills and hands to be an every-down back. Like Addai and Buffalo's Marshawn Lynch, his best asset is his ability to handle a variety of running back roles, rather than be limited as a specialist.
OVERALL GRADE: 7.56Looks to me like his athletic ability was pretty highly regarded there.

robert ethan
09-25-2010, 10:17 PM
That is what you expect to see in the fifth round. Adequate. His Wonderlic was 13, so the likelyhood of his being able to make the adjustments to compensate isn't great either.

Northman
09-25-2010, 10:20 PM
This line stood out to me the most.


Lacks the prototype size and bulk some teams are looking for in a bell-cow runner.

Bosco
09-25-2010, 10:23 PM
You saw "Adequate" in there a lot eh? You sure about that? I see it mentioned in there once, and only once.

I'm not sure if you're trying to bullshit me or if you're just seeing things, but neither one of them is going to fly with me.


His Wonderlic was 13, so the likelyhood of his being able to make the adjustments to compensate isn't great either. And once again, his scouting report disagrees.


Football Sense: Moreno has no problem learning and retaining plays. He has good football instincts and no problems making quick adjustments to the defensive coverage. He has a very good understanding of the offense and blocking schemes. He shows the vision to locate the soft areas in the zone and shows no hesitation redirecting when the rush lanes are clogged. He has a natural feel with the ball in his hands, doing a fine job of anticipating in-line openings. He has no problems taking plays from the chalkboard to the playing field. GRADE: 7.9

Bosco
09-25-2010, 10:29 PM
This line stood out to me the most.

You must remember, we're not looking for Moreno to be a bruiser. We're looking for him to be the complete, all around running back that we can use in a variety of situations. The dedicated bruiser role will be handled by someone else. That was supposed to be Peyton Hillis in 2009, and this year it was LenDale White until he got injured and now it's Laurence Maroney.

Lonestar
09-25-2010, 10:44 PM
Since we are back arguing that the line is the source of Moreno's lack of production once again I'll repost what Buckhalter had to say. After all he was in the meetings with the coaches and video.

http://www.nfltouchdown.com/exclusive-nfltouchdowncom%E2%80%99s-interview-with-denver-broncos-running-back-correll-buckhalter/




“Me and Knowshon actually had different packages. When we were down on the goal line that was mainly him. Knowshon he really fits that. But at the same time it’s a learning process. He just needs to get all the reads down, it’s a part of the game.

“He’s a strong runner but he’s young and was missing reads and stuff but he will be better this year.”

While I understand his comments IT is plain enough to a blind man this OLINE has not gelled yet. In fact may not have got to first name basis with each other yet.

Couple that with rookie mistakes reading the blocks/keys or whatever you wish to call it means there is hope for the kid.

Unlike lots of folks trying to throw him overboard because he flat stinks.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

robert ethan
09-25-2010, 11:51 PM
Buckhalter had a much better ypc average last season running behind the same line. Both he and Maroney have better career averages than Moreno. Maroney had a better rookie season in the NFL when he was a year younger than Moreno was. He missed his last couple games or he would have had nearly identical total yards on offense with fewer touchs. Plus Maroney led the league in kickoff return average as a rookie. I'd say that Knowshon's hold on the starter position is very tenuous. They could probably run Spencer Larson out of the backfield for 3.5 ypc and save a lot of money with the same results.

Peyton Hillis, who is around 250 pounds had equal or better combine/pro day numbers to Moreno, and has a higher career rushing average by 1/3. Hillis - 4.8, Moreno - 3.6.

Bosco
09-26-2010, 12:34 AM
Buckhalter had a much better ypc average last season running behind the same line. And by his and Josh McDaniels own admissions, Buckhalter was given the ball in situations more conducive to long runs while Moreno was tasked with more of the dirty work.


Both he and Maroney have better career averages than Moreno. Maroney's career average is a whole whopping 0.4 yards better than Moreno's. He also played behind a better line than Moreno has.


Maroney had a better rookie season in the NFL when he was a year younger than Moreno was. No he didn't. Moreno had more rushing yards (both total and per game), receiving yards and touchdowns than Maroney.


I'd say that Knowshon's hold on the starter position is very tenuous. And it would be about as correct as anything else you've spewed forth tonight.


They could probably run Spencer Larson out of the backfield for 3.5 ypc and save a lot of money with the same results. See above.


Peyton Hillis, who is around 250 pounds had equal or better combine/pro day numbers to Moreno, and has a higher career rushing average by 1/3. Hillis - 4.8, Moreno - 3.6. And in two years he found himself in the doghouse of two separate coaching staffs here in Denver and has failed to produce anything noteworthy to date in Cleveland. Also if you doubled Peyton's career rushing totals, he'd still fall 1 yard short of equaling Knowshon's totals from his rookie year.

You tell me which one you'd rather have.

robert ethan
09-26-2010, 12:48 AM
Bosco, you're dismissing all my factual points based on the subjectivity of one draft analyst, whoever that is. According to the NFL.com draft profile, Moreno ran a 4.62 40, had a 25" vertical, and a 115 inch horizontal jump. His Wonderlic score was 13. His career rushing average is 3.6 ypc. There is NOTHING SUBJECTIVE ABOUT THOSE NUMBERS.

horsepig
09-26-2010, 12:51 AM
I'm not sold on Knowshon.

He's too small and only has average speed.

Oh. well, he's our guy now, for better or worse.

honz
09-26-2010, 01:26 AM
Moreno is injury prone. To insinuate Champ is as well is simply silly and a poor attempt at logic. Champ didn't miss a single game until his 6th season.

Woodyard, McBath, Barrett (who isn't even on our team :lol:) and LenDale weren't drafted at #12 in the first round by this team.

Furthermore, the Moreno pick looked bad the minute the selection was made last year! To make matters worse, many in the local media speculated, myself included, that McD's insistance to not play McD had more to do with his fear of the Moreno pick looking worse not to mention Hillis outperforming him.

I think the major concern here is the guy continues to get hurt at practice! He is getting hurt at a time when the contact nor the speed are as intense as the games. While he may not have been hurt in college the fact is he has been injured here or playing hurt literally since the first day.

Finally, other posters have already mentioned the problem with Moreno at #12. He has no one single attribute that blows you away. He isn't fast, he isn't a bruiser, he isn't going to break 60 yard TD's.

He has yet to even gain a 100 yard game. Its a poor use of the #12 pick when you consider the larger issues this team had at the time and the fact there was much better info on guys like Shonn Green or LeSean McCoy who went much later.
Yes, I know Barrett isn't on our team anymore. Simply a name that came to mind when thinking of recent injured Broncos. Also, I didn't realize where you were taken in the draft dictates whether you are injury prone or not.

honz
09-26-2010, 01:38 AM
wow, honz, just wow. . .
Wow, just wow. Sometimes I have a bad day and get pissed when people say ridiculous stuff. Wow, just wow, my comments in this thread have been unacceptable.

honz
09-26-2010, 01:40 AM
I'd also like to see Moreno start running the ball better, but let's remember that he does a lot more in this offense than simply line up behind a fullback and pound the rock. Lot's of running out of the shotgun formation, lots of pass protection, pretty involved in the passing game, etc.

Bosco
09-26-2010, 01:41 AM
Bosco, you're dismissing all my factual points based on the subjectivity of one draft analyst, whoever that is. That analysis was done by many of the very intelligent members of the NFL Draft Scout website, which has been long regarded as a top notch resource. Their work is so good that CBS bought them up and merged them, staff intact, into their sports program and NFL.com has been using their material for draft prospect profiles for the better part of a decade now.


According to the NFL.com draft profile, Moreno ran a 4.62 40, had a 25" vertical, and a 115 inch horizontal jump. Their 60 time was the slowest of the unofficial times as reported by several sites, and their vertical jump number is a typo. The correct number is 35.5", not 25.5". For reference, had the 25.5" number been correct it would have the worst of the combine by about 7".


His Wonderlic score was 13. And as I've said on here repeatedly, the Wonderlic is a completely worthless test for measuring the intelligence of football players. If you've ever taken one (I have) you would understand this. It's only useful purpose is providing a sort of uniform baseline that all teams can go by. They still conduct their own batteries of intelligence and behavioral testing, but none of it is uniform.

Want proof? Look no further than your hero Peyton Hillis. He scored a 17 on his wonderlic test, yet his scouting reports warned of his intelligence issues and two separate coaching staffs benched him for his inability to grasp their offenses. Moreno, on the other hand, stepped into the starting role with very little issue and was praised for his football intelligence in his scouting reports.


His career rushing average is 3.6 ypc. There is NOTHING SUBJECTIVE ABOUT THOSE NUMBERS. No, the only thing that is subjective is your serious case of Terrell Davis and Clinton Portis hangover. Despite what you may have been spoiled with many years ago, most starting running backs in any given year are going to average between 4 and 4.5 yards per carry. Knowshon barely missed that mark with 3.9 in his rookie year. Hardly cause to be all up in arms over the issue.


I'm not sold on Knowshon.

He's too small He's the exact same size as Terrell Davis was. 5'11, 210.

Northman
09-26-2010, 04:12 AM
You must remember, we're not looking for Moreno to be a bruiser. We're looking for him to be the complete, all around running back that we can use in a variety of situations. The dedicated bruiser role will be handled by someone else. That was supposed to be Peyton Hillis in 2009, and this year it was LenDale White until he got injured and now it's Laurence Maroney.


Well, thus far i cant say he has been that complete back you speak of. As for White? I have to keep wondering why McD continues to sign guys who have injury histories. Its getting to the point of ridiculousness now when it comes to just having backs that cant stay healthy. Although ive never been sold on our training and medical staff it is also a problem with the decision making when it comes to signing and drafting players who just cant stay healthy. The decision making on player personnel needs to improve dramatically.

Lonestar
09-26-2010, 04:58 AM
good lord!

:rolleyes:

i'll say it again-- we need to spend another pick on a back next year. . . this is freakin' ridiculous. . .

Did I miss hearing that L White was cut along with maroney.

Both day one picks IIRC. And both of them have carried for more than a 1000 yards a season.

Let's not get over dramatic on this.
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Bosco
09-26-2010, 05:07 AM
Well, thus far i cant say he has been that complete back you speak of. As for White? I have to keep wondering why McD continues to sign guys who have injury histories. Its getting to the point of ridiculousness now when it comes to just having backs that cant stay healthy. Although ive never been sold on our training and medical staff it is also a problem with the decision making when it comes to signing and drafting players who just cant stay healthy. The decision making on player personnel needs to improve dramatically.

When has LenDale White ever had injury problems? To my recollection, this is his first significant injury since college.

And while I agree with you about our training staff, people need to realize that injuries to running backs are fairly common. No other position in the NFL gets the beating these guys do and it's why running back by committee has grown in popularity. Anyone looking to running backs for a shining beacon of health is going to be seriously disappointed.

Slick
09-26-2010, 09:39 AM
Any professional running back can look good behind a good offensive line so those excuses don't hold water IMO.

I loved his effort last Sunday. You could tell he was busting his ass...leaving it all out on the field.

I just don't think hell ever be an elite back which is what you would like to see when you take a guy at 12.

Sure, it isn't his fault that we took him there, just like it wasn't Alphonso Smith's fault. That doesn't mean that they are/were above some criticism.

We can criticize a guy but still wish him well.

Lonestar
09-26-2010, 10:10 AM
Any professional running back can look good behind a good offensive line so those excuses don't hold water IMO.

I loved his effort last Sunday. You could tell he was busting his ass...leaving it all out on the field.

I just don't think hell ever be an elite back which is what you would like to see when you take a guy at 12.

Sure, it isn't his fault that we took him there, just like it wasn't Alphonso Smith's fault. That doesn't mean that they are/were above some criticism.

We can criticize a guy but still wish him well.

The issue is very few are wishing him well, but comdeming him.

That said. First day picks should be starter quality picks. Top five are elite players and should have an immediate impact.

Top ten nearly so and top fifteen should be staters by the end of the rookie years. IMHO

There are always exceptions to those rules. But generally not.

Since moreno is a bronco I will support him till he is not. I think Josh has mitigated a weak area on the TEAM by adding White and Maroney they will bring the heat to make whomever the starter is to be better. Just like he has done at all oositions on the TEAM.

Next year I'm hoping will be DL, MLB and safety upgrades or rotational starters. After those spots I'd not much care.
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LRtagger
09-26-2010, 11:16 AM
Damn, why you got to bust on Bucky man? He's just being honest. Support the player dude.

What are you talking about?

T.K.O.
09-26-2010, 11:22 AM
knowshon is better than many backs taken higher.....darren mcfadden anyone ?:laugh:

Buff
09-26-2010, 11:33 AM
knowshon is better than many backs taken higher.....darren mcfadden anyone ?:laugh:

McFadden may have the same durability issues, but give me McFadden over Knowshon any day of the week.

silkamilkamonico
09-26-2010, 11:50 AM
They are now saying he will likely be out next week also. Week 3 and Moreno is battling significant injuries to both hamstrings.

Now is the time for Laurence Maroney to make a push to be the future RB in Denver!

Lonestar
09-26-2010, 11:51 AM
They are now saying he will likely be out next week 2. Week 3 and Moreno is battling significant injuries to both hamstrings.

Now is the time for Laurence Maroney to make a push to be the future RB in Denver!

do you mean next week ALSO.

silkamilkamonico
09-26-2010, 11:59 AM
do you mean next week ALSO.

Yes. Obviously at this point it's not given but the players said "he went down like he was bit by a rattlesnake" and is not moving very well at all right now.

Buff
09-26-2010, 12:29 PM
Klis reported that he could be out 2 additional weeks after today.

silkamilkamonico
09-26-2010, 12:33 PM
Laurence Maroney, the oppurtunity is yours. Sieze it.

DenBronx
09-26-2010, 12:49 PM
Laurence Maroney, the oppurtunity is yours. Sieze it.

They may take our land, women and children but they'll never take our FREEEEEDOM!!!

jhildebrand
09-26-2010, 01:01 PM
How can you hold where a player gets drafted against the player? You can blame Knowshon for dominating the SEC for 2 years and being rated a consensus first rounder.

Simple. If a player can dominate in the SEC, they should be able to come in and do quite well in the NFL. If a player performs good enough to be drafted 12th their play should justify that pick. It has always been that way.

I don't hear them making excuses for McCluster, another SEC kid, in KC. Their line isn't full of all pro's. Dexter and Jamal both look pretty damn good.

Jarvis Moss deserves the heat he gets for his draft value as did Alphonso as does Ayers as does Jay Cutler or any other first rounder. They are expected to come in and contribute and make the team better.

jhildebrand
09-26-2010, 01:03 PM
knowshon is better than many backs taken higher.....darren mcfadden anyone ?:laugh:

But the Raiders are known, currently at least, for taking stupid chances on players in the first. I don't think your argument makes me feel any better about Moreno.

Lonestar
09-26-2010, 01:08 PM
But the Raiders are known, currently at least, for taking stupid chances on players in the first. I don't think your argument makes me feel any better about Moreno.

Actually they are known for drafting SPEED and players that are invovled in the vertical passing game.

While I will agree that they are stupid there is some reason to it.

jhildebrand
09-26-2010, 01:16 PM
Yes, I know Barrett isn't on our team anymore. Simply a name that came to mind when thinking of recent injured Broncos. Also, I didn't realize where you were taken in the draft dictates whether you are injury prone or not.


So the value and injury concerns for a player selected in the 7th round are the same to you as those of a 1st rounder. Good theory. Had you been following the conversation you would have noted that several others, myself included, have mentioned that Moreno is not a bad back but not worthy (at this point at least) of the 12th overall selection. Sure his college play possibly warrants that pick but so far it hasn't translated to the NFL.

Furthermore, where you are drafted doesn't dictate whether you are injury prone or not. INJURIES DO! The fact is Knowshon continues to get hurt. Are you disputing that? :confused:

Again, of even more concern, is the guy is getting hurt in PRACTICE! At reduced speeds and contact the guy continues to get hurt in practice.

Finally, I love the hypocrisy on these boards. The very same people who INSISTED Schefler was INJURY PRONE let alone Hillis are the VERY SAME posters insisting Moreno isn't. Funny how those double standards work :rolleyes:

jhildebrand
09-26-2010, 01:17 PM
Actually they are known for drafting SPEED and players that are invovled in the vertical passing game.

While I will agree that they are stupid there is some reason to it.

But TKO's argument is the Raiders took McFadden higher and he is of equal disappointment to Moreno. The Raiders failure certainly doesn't make me feel better about ours (should Moreno's injury woes continue).

Northman
09-26-2010, 01:21 PM
The fact that Hillis has 12 carries for 71 yds and 1 TD doesnt make me feel any better. Especially after watching him bulldoze 3 Raven defenders to get a first down before scoring his TD. How can we not use a RB who can push the Dline? Amazing.

Elevation inc
09-26-2010, 01:25 PM
The fact that Hillis has 12 carries for 71 yds and 1 TD doesnt make me feel any better. Especially after watching him bulldoze 3 Raven defenders to get a first down before scoring his TD. How can we not use a RB who can push the Dline? Amazing.

lol...i was just thinking this im starting to get a little more irritated by that decision, i understand coaches need there own players and what not but this is the ravens and hillis is bowling them over.....so how could he not be used here??? lol.....

Northman
09-26-2010, 01:26 PM
lol...i was just thinking this im starting to get a little more irritated by that decision, i understand coaches need there own players and what not but this is the ravens and hillis is bowling them over.....so how could he not be used here??? Lol.....

makes no sense whatsoever.

silkamilkamonico
09-26-2010, 02:01 PM
I'm starting to wonder about these decisions McDaniels is making as well, especially after seeing the gus he does choose to use play.

Orton and Gaffney have been very good additions to the offense, and McDaniels has done a great job with them. But IMHO, other than those 2, I'm not so sure about his other decisions. DThomas looks like he will be an excellent addition as well.

Either way, he's made his bed, he's going to have to sleep in it.

spikerman
09-26-2010, 06:52 PM
The fact that Hillis has 12 carries for 71 yds and 1 TD doesnt make me feel any better. Especially after watching him bulldoze 3 Raven defenders to get a first down before scoring his TD. How can we not use a RB who can push the Dline? Amazing.

Denver definitely could have used him today.

spikerman
09-26-2010, 06:53 PM
I just didn't see a lot of explosion out of Maroney today. If he had been wearing #27 instead of #26 it would have looked very similar to what we've been seeing over the past 1+ seasons.

Buff
09-26-2010, 06:55 PM
I was very unimpressed with LoMo...

But in his defense, he didn't look healthy at all when he got into the open field after that shake n bake. I think his groin is still injured.

Lonestar
09-26-2010, 09:48 PM
lol...i was just thinking this im starting to get a little more irritated by that decision, i understand coaches need there own players and what not but this is the ravens and hillis is bowling them over.....so how could he not be used here??? lol.....

There seemed to be a reason that BOTH mike and Josh did not play him, some said it was not being able to grasp the play book.

In today's DEN offense they install new playbook each week with new plays designed to take advantage of the upcoming defenses weaknesses. If one is unable to grasp the basic play book. This was alluded to over the past couple of years. Are you going to just have a few plays just for him? Dumb down the playbook?


I'm just curious how they would get the ever changing playbook for new plays each week. now I know that the playbook is not totally new but new plays are designed each week to surprise the opponent.

As much as I liked the kid (was an adoptee from the day after we could add them in) he served no useful purpose in the current offense or he would have still been here.

I'm happy for him that he is doing well in CLE but then I suspect their opponents are going to allow them to run till the cows come home, so they can't be beat via the air.

Northman
09-26-2010, 09:55 PM
There seemed to be a reason that BOTH mike and Josh did not play him, some said it was not being able to grasp the play book.

In today's DEN offense they install new playbook each week with new plays designed to take advantage of the upcoming defenses weaknesses. If one is unable to grasp the basic play book. This was alluded to over the past couple of years. Are you going to just have a few plays just for him? Dumb down the playbook?


I'm just curious how they would get the ever changing playbook for new plays each week. now I know that the playbook is not totally new but new plays are designed each week to surprise the opponent.

As much as I liked the kid (was an adoptee from the day after we could add them in) he served no useful purpose in the current offense or he would have still been here.

I'm happy for him that he is doing well in CLE but then I suspect their opponents are going to allow them to run till the cows come home, so they can't be beat via the air.

Yea, because Seneca Wallace is a barn burner. I watched that game today and even when Baltimore tried Hillis plowed through them. You simply cannot tell me that you cant tell a RB to simply run through a hole on the goalline to score. No RB is THAT dumb even if you buy that theory.

jhildebrand
09-26-2010, 09:57 PM
There seemed to be a reason that BOTH mike and Josh did not play him, some said it was not being able to grasp the play book.

In today's DEN offense they install new playbook each week with new plays designed to take advantage of the upcoming defenses weaknesses. If one is unable to grasp the basic play book. This was alluded to over the past couple of years. Are you going to just have a few plays just for him? Dumb down the playbook?


I'm just curious how they would get the ever changing playbook for new plays each week. now I know that the playbook is not totally new but new plays are designed each week to surprise the opponent.

As much as I liked the kid (was an adoptee from the day after we could add them in) he served no useful purpose in the current offense or he would have still been here.

I'm happy for him that he is doing well in CLE but then I suspect their opponents are going to allow them to run till the cows come home, so they can't be beat via the air.

Cute story, JRWIZ.

The problem is Mangini runs the same NE system. He installs a game plan for each opponent the same way McD and Belichick do. Many of the plays are the same.

I guess that blows your little theory right out of the water. That, or the Cleveland air is full of IQ juice and it is reaching Hillis by osmosis.

Bosco
09-26-2010, 10:07 PM
Cute story, JRWIZ.

The problem is Mangini runs the same NE system. He installs a game plan for each opponent the same way McD and Belichick do. Many of the plays are the same.

I guess that blows your little theory right out of the water. That, or the Cleveland air is full of IQ juice and it is reaching Hillis by osmosis.

Incorrect.

Brian Daboll is the Browns OC. He spent a short time as the Patriots receivers coach before moving on to the Jets in 2006 where he was the QB coach under Brian Schottenheimer, who himself was the QB coach in San Diego from 2002 to 2005 where he learned and subsequently adopted a more traditional West Coast Offense. Daboll brought that same offense to Cleveland when Mangini hired him away from New York.

jhildebrand
09-26-2010, 10:12 PM
Incorrect.

Brian Daboll is the Browns OC. He spent a short time as the Patriots receivers coach before moving on to the Jets in 2006 where he was the QB coach under Brian Schottenheimer, who himself was the QB coach in San Diego from 2002 to 2005 where he learned and subsequently adopted a more traditional West Coast Offense. Daboll brought that same offense to Cleveland when Mangini hired him away from New York.

So then Mangini has become smart enough not to try to do it all himself. Great! When can mcD take that from the NE system? :confused:

It doesn't change the fact that this stupid and ignorant theory, for which you started, that Hillis is not smart doesn't hold a drop of water. Furthermore, as each week passes it becomes more and more clear that Hillis is a player and will be in this league for a long time to come. It also becomes more clear each week that it probably wasn't a good move on McDaniels part. What's funnier are those, like you, who insist on defending what is almost indefensible.

Your boy F'ed up, Bosco.

Northman
09-26-2010, 10:13 PM
Your boy F'ed up, Bosco.

We got to be politicallly correct. Our boy F'ed up. :lol:

Bosco
09-26-2010, 10:30 PM
So then Mangini has become smart enough not to try to do it all himself. Great! When can mcD take that from the NE system? :confused: Mangini, a defensive coach BTW, has never tried to do it all. He had Schottenheimer call the offensive plays from day one in New York. When he was fired and went to Cleveland, he took the guy directly under Schottenheimer to be his new OC and that guy (Daboll) has done all the offensive play calling there as well.


It doesn't change the fact that this stupid and ignorant theory, for which you started, that Hillis is not smart doesn't hold a drop of water. Actually it does matter because you were attempting to discredit those by showing that he plays in the same system that McD runs. This is not true, and the offense he plays in now is much more similar to what Shanahan ran here in Denver.

Regardless, unless you're suggesting that I somehow convinced multiple sources to all lie about his mental shortcomings, somehow caused him to be unable to grasp the offense(s) and then convinced both Mike Shanahan and Josh McDaniels to bench him for it, you can't really say that this is my doing. Hell, the same SIGMA test results I posted here first hit the wire (including at the OrangeMane and BroncoFreaks) back in early 2009, long before I had even shown up here. I'm not sure why this forum was so in the dark regarding a matter that was being discussed just about everywhere else, but that's besides the point.

Moreover, neither you or anyone else here has found a logical counter-theory as to why both Shanahan and McDaniels benched him. The best you've come up with is the tinfoil hat special, a.k.a "Josh didn't want to make Moreno look bad!" and that only addresses half the equation.

Yeah...that is certainly more reasonable.


Furthermore, as each week passes it becomes more and more clear that Hillis is a player and will be in this league for a long time to come. It also becomes more clear each week that it probably wasn't a good move on McDaniels part. What's funnier are those, like you, who insist on defending what is almost indefensible.

Your boy F'ed up, Bosco. Hey, congratulations! You realize that Hillis has an abundance of physical talent. Welcome to 2008!

jhildebrand
09-26-2010, 10:39 PM
Shanahan and McDaniels benched him. !

Remind me when Shanahan benched Hillis. Once Shanahan went to him he stuck with him until the injury happened.

Furthermore, there are other posters who, even today, posted that "Bosco told me he was stupid." You pushed that theory. Why backpedal now.

Suffice it to say that it is clear that Hillis is not stupid and trading him for Quinn looks worse each passing week.

As for my tin hat theory, half the Denver Post proposed/speculated the same theory for Hillis lack of playing time under McD.

Northman
09-26-2010, 10:48 PM
Hillis went back to the bench because he was not the designated starter at that time. It had nothing to do with how intelligent Hillis was. I cant believe people are actually claiming that.

Bosco
09-26-2010, 10:52 PM
Remind me when Shanahan benched Hillis. Once Shanahan went to him he stuck with him until the injury happened. Weeks 2-8 in 2008. Peyton started the Oakland game at FB, was benched except for special teams and didn't get another touch until week 9 against Miami. Posted this several times before, including in response to you and with verifying link attached. Either your memory is failing or you got your head in the sand.


Furthermore, there are other posters who, even today, posted that "Bosco told me he was stupid." You pushed that theory. Why backpedal now. I'm not backpedaling from anything. You said I "started" this theory. I did not. It had been discussed on other Bronco forums long before I was here. Here is a thread on the Mane, from late November of 2009, and no, I am not the poster who started the thread there.

http://orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=87093

For some odd reason, this bit of information and the other resources I have referenced went unnoticed here. If you were to say that I was the first to bring that here to this forum, then you would be correct.


Suffice it to say that it is clear that Hillis is not stupid How so?


As for my tin hat theory, half the Denver Post proposed/speculated the same theory for Hillis lack of playing time under McD. Congrats, you find other people that think that might have been the cause. Knowing what I know about their football knowledge, I'd give your speculation more credibility than theirs.

(For reference, their is a 9/11 Troofer joke in there, but I'm not going to touch it...yet ;) )

Bosco
09-26-2010, 10:53 PM
Hillis went back to the bench because he was not the designated starter at that time. It had nothing to do with how intelligent Hillis was. I cant believe people are actually claiming that.

And why was he removed as "designated starter" in favor of a converted linebacker?

Northman
09-26-2010, 10:57 PM
And why was he removed as "designated starter" in favor of a converted linebacker?


He wasnt. It was a rotation that Shanahan was using because the RB crew was in shambles. In some games (especially after the Jets game) defenses keyed in on Hillis and Shanahan mixed it up. Young and Pittman were the designated starters and when everyone got hurt Shanahan had to go out and sign up Bell to finish the season.

jhildebrand
09-26-2010, 11:01 PM
I am still waiting for you to post something that undeniably proves Shanahan benched Hillis. You earlier claimed that any of your posts that came from your knowledge could be supported with outside sources.

I am waiting for a source, a link, a quote, something that shows Shanahan benched Hillis.

jhildebrand
09-26-2010, 11:03 PM
How so?


Well...seeing how he could shred the Ravens D, the same D that Moreno couldn't do jack with, and all with a limited O line and a terrible QB tells me something.

How long are you going to insist that Hillis is stupid or defend trading him?

BeefStew25
09-26-2010, 11:04 PM
Larsen could play both ways. Remember the ATL game?

Northman
09-26-2010, 11:06 PM
Larsen could play both ways. Remember the ATL game?

Your avy is highly disturbing, but i just can not look. :lol:

Bosco
09-26-2010, 11:38 PM
He wasnt. It was a rotation that Shanahan was using because the RB crew was in shambles. In some games (especially after the Jets game) defenses keyed in on Hillis and Shanahan mixed it up. Young and Pittman were the designated starters and when everyone got hurt Shanahan had to go out and sign up Bell to finish the season.

Peyton was the starting fullback against Oakland, with Pittman, Young and Hall working as the running backs. After that, he was replaced at FB by Pittman (who they converted back over) with Larsen sometimes getting snaps. By the Bucs game, Pittman was back to HB again with Larsen at fullback. Hillis didn't back on the field on offense until week 9 against Miami when Pittman was already on IR and Selvin was out with an injury.


I am still waiting for you to post something that undeniably proves Shanahan benched Hillis. You earlier claimed that any of your posts that came from your knowledge could be supported with outside sources.

I am waiting for a source, a link, a quote, something that shows Shanahan benched Hillis.

Here's the same one I've posted before, multiple times.

http://www.milehighreport.com/2009/2/4/744720/hillis-the-hammer-in-2009


Hillis was benched early in the 2008 season. We later learned from Cutler that there was a perception that Hillis had a concentration problem at first and it was seen as lacking a ‘keep your head in the game' approach. Hillis returned from it and was productive, effective and showed great promise. There was no public pouting nor any sign of anything but a willingness to mature and do better.And here once again, some posters from the OrangeMane (again, none of which are me, FTR) discussing it from October and November of 2008.


I agree, but I do think this game is still going to be at least 60-40 pass to run. Also, apparently Hillis is being benched for Larsen this week. http://orangemane.com/BB/showpost.php?p=2112837&postcount=25


Seriously, Hillis and the offense worked well for the first month. I got pissed when Shanny benched Hillis for Larsen. http://orangemane.com/BB/showpost.php?p=2149597&postcount=22


Explain why they benched Hillis? http://orangemane.com/BB/showpost.php?p=2159495&postcount=12


He was missing reads and blocks, he said so himself. http://orangemane.com/BB/showpost.php?p=2159520&postcount=13

If that isn't enough for you, you're simply beyond hope.


Well...seeing how he could shred the Ravens D, the same D that Moreno couldn't do jack with, and all with a limited O line and a terrible QB tells me something. Except his performance doesn't prove that he isn't lacking intelligence. It just proves that Cleveland was able to streamline the game for their only offensive threat to use his physical talent (which has never been in question) against a suspect rushing defense. That's not much different than what Shanahan did with him for a few games in 2008.

jhildebrand
09-26-2010, 11:46 PM
Doc Bear is certainly a credible journalist :lol:

Furthermore, it doesn't say Hillis was stupid as much as he was lacking concentration. Two totally different things.

Looks like I was right about R. Quinn. He is stupid too and was inactive today occupying Hillis former spot in the McD doghouse. :lol: See I can label a player stupid too.

ChampWJ
09-26-2010, 11:53 PM
Well...seeing how he could shred the Ravens D, the same D that Moreno couldn't do jack with, and all with a limited O line and a terrible QB tells me something.

How long are you going to insist that Hillis is stupid or defend trading him?

The Ravens 2010 Defense is not the Ravens 2009 defense. Players, schemes, and circumstances change each year.

And are you sure you want to make that statement about Moreno vs. Baltimore last year? Why single him out when the whole team struggled? Knowshon got limited opportunities in that game because of the way the Ravens controlled the game and still scored the Broncos' only touchdown. I don't recall any Bronco putting up respectable stats in that game.

jhildebrand
09-27-2010, 12:36 AM
The Ravens 2010 Defense is not the Ravens 2009 defense. Players, schemes, and circumstances change each year.


You're right, this time last year the Ravens weren't the second ranked D like they were going into today. They are even BETTER this year.



And are you sure you want to make that statement about Moreno vs. Baltimore last year? Why single him out when the whole team struggled? Knowshon got limited opportunities in that game because of the way the Ravens controlled the game and still scored the Broncos' only touchdown. I don't recall any Bronco putting up respectable stats in that game.

Well, seems to me Hillis has as many limitations in Cleveland, if not more seeing how Seneca Wallace was his starting QB and he still took that D apart.

ChampWJ
09-28-2010, 01:17 AM
You're right, this time last year the Ravens weren't the second ranked D like they were going into today. They are even BETTER this year.

Well, seems to me Hillis has as many limitations in Cleveland, if not more seeing how Seneca Wallace was his starting QB and he still took that D apart.

Your boy Shonn Greene sure didn't do much against that Ravens defense this year. 5 carries, 18 yards.

jhildebrand
09-28-2010, 10:22 AM
Your boy Shonn Greene sure didn't do much against that Ravens defense this year. 5 carries, 18 yards.

So...he had a Moreno day against them. I guess Shonn Greene is no Peyton Hillis.

So what have we learned?

Shonn Greene in the third round can produce like Moreno who was a #12 overall and Peyton Hillis the stupid 7th rounder can outperform them all.

Guess we can close the books on this one. ;)