Broncs end up with Maroney, Gronkowski, for Smith

[robert ethan]

...basically. They may get an extra 6th round pick out of the exchanges, depending on how well Alf does in Detroit. Still not a bad recovery from a fumbled pick. Smith will be 25 in a month, the same age as Gronkowski and Maroney.

I'm optimistic for both the new players. Gronkowksi put up some impressive numbers at the Combine in 2009 for a guy with the rep of a grinding blocker at the position. Basically the same size and same test scores as his younger brother Rob managed this year. Better than his former teammate Pettigrew in Detroit, and better than his current teammate Quinn in Denver. Which may say more about the drafting of Quinn in round two than about Gronk lasting to the end of the draft. Lots of people wailing about the Smith pick, but what about Quinn? That was sheer lunacy.

Maroney just turned 25 this spring, and hasn't had any serious leg or knee injuries in his career, so he should have some mileage left. He seems to be a good guy and a serious athlete. I doubt McDaniels would have made the deal if there were any character concerns. His numbers were not bad when he played, similar to some late blooming runners like Thomas Jones or Cedric Benson. Every time Earl Thomas makes a play for the Seahawks, McDaniels haters are going to be wailing, so it's nice they have a couple of players on the roster that can balance the scales.

[DenBronx]

Forgive me for not being too enthused. It was the 14th overall pick and with the help we need on defense I think it was stupid from the beggining.

But...we have questions in our run game and a huge gaping hole left at receiving TE. So, at least we got something for the bum.

[Bosco]

Lots of people wailing about the Smith pick, but what about Quinn? That was sheer lunacy. Why is that?

[Buff]

Welcome to the boards, Bob.

I like your optimism, but I'm not exactly following you here. We gave up a 4th to New England and in return we received Maroney & a 6th rounder, which really has nothing to do with Gronkowski or Smith.

And to my knowledge, the Smith/Grankowski deal was a player for player swap - no conditional 6th rounder attached to the deal. Thus, the only 6th rounder we get is from New England and it has nothing to do with Smith's performance in Detroit.

Also, as Peter King pointed out, we essentially took the 14th overall pick in 2010 and traded it for the 255th pick in the 2009 draft. I'm a big homer, but we can't spin that into being a good trade. I think ultimately Perrish Cox will be a better player and help us forget about Smith, but that doesn't make it ok to trade a 1st rd pick for a 2nd rd pick, and then give up on the guy a year later.

So, yes I like the addition of Maroney, but it was completely unrelated to Alphonso Smith.

[sneakers]

Forgive me for not being too enthused. It was the 14th overall pick and with the help we need on defense I think it was stupid from the beggining.

But...we have questions in our run game and a huge gaping hole left at receiving TE. So, at least we got something for the bum.

:shocked:

(Read the red part without context!)

[frauschieze]

Which may say more about the drafting of Quinn in round two than about Gronk lasting to the end of the draft. Lots of people wailing about the Smith pick, but what about Quinn? That was sheer lunacy.


Why is that?

This one's easy.

The trade and pick of Quinn in the second round is completely indefensible. No matter how you spin it, it was a dumb move. Drafting a player for their hands when they have 12 total catches in their college career? And even if you ignore that piece, the second round is high for a pure blocking TE.

With Phonz, the potential was there for him to be an impact player, his college record clearly showed that. People could think the trade was outrageous, and still think Phonz had a shot at making a difference. Or they could justify the move up for the chance that Phonz was Champ's heir apparent. People were willing to suspend disbelief and trust McDaniels knew what he was doing because there was at least a body of work which seemed to indicate good things. It's infinitely harder to do that in the Quinn situation.

With the trade to Detroit, all those rose colored thoughts and justifications went out the window. People are going to wail on both sides; those which had it wrong, and those beating their chest to say told you so.

So why the difference with Quinn? With Phonz there has always been debate: is the trade worth it if he turns out to be great? With Quinn, there never has been. The trade and the pick were ridiculous. When everyone is in agreement, there's less conversation and no controversy.

[WARHORSE]

This one's easy.

The trade and pick of Quinn in the second round is completely indefensible. No matter how you spin it, it was a dumb move. Drafting a player for their hands when they have 12 total catches in their college career? And even if you ignore that piece, the second round is high for a pure blocking TE.

With Phonz, the potential was there for him to be an impact player, his college record clearly showed that. People could think the trade was outrageous, and still think Phonz had a shot at making a difference. Or they could justify the move up for the chance that Phonz was Champ's heir apparent. People were willing to suspend disbelief and trust McDaniels knew what he was doing because there was at least a body of work which seemed to indicate good things. It's infinitely harder to do that in the Quinn situation.

With the trade to Detroit, all those rose colored thoughts and justifications went out the window. People are going to wail on both sides; those which had it wrong, and those beating their chest to say told you so.

So why the difference with Quinn? With Phonz there has always been debate: is the trade worth it if he turns out to be great? With Quinn, there never has been. The trade and the pick were ridiculous. When everyone is in agreement, there's less conversation and no controversy.


Not bad.........




.........for a chick.:coffee:
:D









:salute:

[claymore]

As much as we bitched about Shanahan the GM you would think we would all want to hold this new Front office more accountable for their picks.

Until Tebow, and DT contribute... We have flat out wasted 3 #1 picks this year. There is an argument on Moreno last year, but... I cant fault that pick.

[Tned]

As much as we bitched about Shanahan the GM you would think we would all want to hold this new Front office more accountable for their picks.

Until Tebow, and DT contribute... We have flat out wasted 3 #1 picks this year. There is an argument on Moreno last year, but... I cant fault that pick.

I wouldn't say "more accountable", but yes, they should be held accountable.

[claymore]

I wouldn't say "more accountable", but yes, they should be held accountable.

I didnt mean more accountable then the other fron office, I meant more accountable than they are.

As retarded as some of the Shanny/Sundquist picks were, most were not as in in your face ridiculous as McD'/Xanders are.

Our Front office blows.

5 #1 picks in 2 years. 2 starters. Even if a #1 is a bust, they still at least start for a few years.

/rant off. nothing I can do about it.

[Tned]

I didnt mean more accountable then the other fron office, I meant more accountable than they are.

As retarded as some of the Shanny/Sundquist picks were, most were not as in in your face ridiculous as McD'/Xanders are.

Our Front office blows.

5 #1 picks in 2 years. 2 starters. Even if a #1 is a bust, they still at least start for a few years.

/rant off. nothing I can do about it.

While I think now, and thought then, that trading a first to pick Smith was a huge blunder (and believe that is one of the things Bowlen referred to as a 'rookie mistake' when talking about the draft and offseason), I think his other first round picks are solid.

I know some aren't impressed with Mayock, and others really like his takes, but he loved the Ayers pick and said that in three years Ayers would be considered the best defensive player to come out of the '09 draft. So, based on his timeline, you would expect for Ayers to start showing something this year, and be dominant next year.

Moreno is a solid back. We still don't know exactly what he brings to the table, but we needed a back and he appeared to be the best option for us to draft.

I listened to the NFL Sirius Radio guys in their training camp coverage and they couldn't stop talking about D. Thomas. They are convinced that he will be a dominant receiver in this league, and soon. Obviously, he has to get over his foot injury before that can happen.

Finally, Tebow. This may take some time, but some love the pick, some hate it. I'm in the love it category. Not so much because I am convinced that Tebow will be great, but because I felt strongly that when Cutler was traded away that McDaniels needed to use some of those first rounders to get a long term QB candidate. So, I am hoping Tebow is that.

[claymore]

While I think now, and thought then, that trading a first to pick Smith was a huge blunder (and believe that is one of the things Bowlen referred to as a 'rookie mistake' when talking about the draft and offseason), I think his other first round picks are solid.

I know some aren't impressed with Mayock, and others really like his takes, but he loved the Ayers pick and said that in three years Ayers would be considered the best defensive player to come out of the '09 draft. So, based on his timeline, you would expect for Ayers to start showing something this year, and be dominant next year.

Moreno is a solid back. We still don't know exactly what he brings to the table, but we needed a back and he appeared to be the best option for us to draft.

I listened to the NFL Sirius Radio guys in their training camp coverage and they couldn't stop talking about D. Thomas. They are convinced that he will be a dominant receiver in this league, and soon. Obviously, he has to get over his foot injury before that can happen.

Finally, Tebow. This may take some time, but some love the pick, some hate it. I'm in the love it category. Not so much because I am convinced that Tebow will be great, but because I felt strongly that when Cutler was traded away that McDaniels needed to use some of those first rounders to get a long term QB candidate. So, I am hoping Tebow is that.
Even if Ayers and Moreno were busts I wouldnt be mad at those picks. Where I get upset is drafting a project QB, and a broken WR in the first round.

Obviously Im mad at the smith scenario.

We need so many things on this team that we dont need to draft a project, or a broken player.

Thats the point. McD thinks with his weiner. And not his brain.

[Dreadnought]

This one's easy.

The trade and pick of Quinn in the second round is completely indefensible. No matter how you spin it, it was a dumb move. Drafting a player for their hands when they have 12 total catches in their college career? And even if you ignore that piece, the second round is high for a pure blocking TE.

With Phonz, the potential was there for him to be an impact player, his college record clearly showed that. People could think the trade was outrageous, and still think Phonz had a shot at making a difference. Or they could justify the move up for the chance that Phonz was Champ's heir apparent. People were willing to suspend disbelief and trust McDaniels knew what he was doing because there was at least a body of work which seemed to indicate good things. It's infinitely harder to do that in the Quinn situation.

With the trade to Detroit, all those rose colored thoughts and justifications went out the window. People are going to wail on both sides; those which had it wrong, and those beating their chest to say told you so.

So why the difference with Quinn? With Phonz there has always been debate: is the trade worth it if he turns out to be great? With Quinn, there never has been. The trade and the pick were ridiculous. When everyone is in agreement, there's less conversation and no controversy.


Agreed. I think the Quinn pick demonstrated that McD had decided that Scheffler was a goner, basically sight unseen at that point. Why? McD knows, but everything else is speculation. Given that TE was a strength (with Graham and Scheffler) on a team with a crapload of weaknesses it suggests that McD was going to flush a bunch of Shanahan favorites regardless of the talent and ability involved. Thats also when I began to question my faith in the guy, after originally being happy with the hiring. It was that dumb and pointless a move.

[rcsodak]

Forgive me for not being too enthused. It was the 14th overall pick and with the help we need on defense I think it was stupid from the beggining.

But...we have questions in our run game and a huge gaping hole left at receiving TE. So, at least we got something for the bum.
"huge gaping hole" where? Maybe you missed the boat when it sailed, but that's been the case since SS retired. Putzier? He's here in Omaha. Schefler? Avg TE that spends as much time with the trainers as he does on the field. Chamberlain was as good as those 2 ever were. And now, TE is a blocker/afterthought. To McD, they're cheaper OT's that can occasionally catch a pass.
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[topscribe]

This one's easy.

The trade and pick of Quinn in the second round is completely indefensible. No matter how you spin it, it was a dumb move. Drafting a player for their hands when they have 12 total catches in their college career? And even if you ignore that piece, the second round is high for a pure blocking TE.

With Phonz, the potential was there for him to be an impact player, his college record clearly showed that. People could think the trade was outrageous, and still think Phonz had a shot at making a difference. Or they could justify the move up for the chance that Phonz was Champ's heir apparent. People were willing to suspend disbelief and trust McDaniels knew what he was doing because there was at least a body of work which seemed to indicate good things. It's infinitely harder to do that in the Quinn situation.

With the trade to Detroit, all those rose colored thoughts and justifications went out the window. People are going to wail on both sides; those which had it wrong, and those beating their chest to say told you so.

So why the difference with Quinn? With Phonz there has always been debate: is the trade worth it if he turns out to be great? With Quinn, there never has been. The trade and the pick were ridiculous. When everyone is in agreement, there's less conversation and no controversy.

Why is Woody Paige writing for the DP, and you are not?

-----

[rcsodak]

Not bad.........




.........for a chick.:coffee:
:salute:
I dunno.....I'm not comfortable with all the 'wailing' by frau/OP.
But I think I get it!

WAIL=MOBY
RICHARD=DIK
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[rcsodak]

I didnt mean more accountable then the other fron office, I meant more accountable than they are.

As retarded as some of the Shanny/Sundquist picks were, most were not as in in your face ridiculous as McD'/Xanders are.

Our Front office blows.

5 #1 picks in 2 years. 2 starters. Even if a #1 is a bust, they still at least start for a few years.

/rant off. nothing I can do about it.
ACTUAL PIX:
2009-MORENO/AYERS (both starting)
2010-DT/TT (injured/#2)

Smith was a #2 rd pick. Just because Sea requires a #1 for him doesnt magically make him one. If you want to play the hypothetcal game, fine, but thats as good as trying to relate MADDEN to the real deal. IMO.
McD failed on smith. He acknowledged it/dealt with it and moved on. GRONK may turn out to be a good swap. Address it after 2011.
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[rcsodak]

Agreed. I think the Quinn pick demonstrated that McD had decided that Scheffler was a goner, basically sight unseen at that point. Why? McD knows, but everything else is speculation. Given that TE was a strength (with Graham and Scheffler) on a team with a crapload of weaknesses it suggests that McD was going to flush a bunch of Shanahan favorites regardless of the talent and ability involved. Thats also when I began to question my faith in the guy, after originally being happy with the hiring. It was that dumb and pointless a move.
Did you read clay's take on DT? If he's a "broken player, then TS was scrambled. He's ALWAYS hurt, and for every big play he made (not many) he whiffed twice by either missing a block or dropping an easy pass. Putting a saddle on a sow STILL leaves you buttsore. :D
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[Tned]

Even if Ayers and Moreno were busts I wouldnt be mad at those picks. Where I get upset is drafting a project QB, and a broken WR in the first round.

Obviously Im mad at the smith scenario.

We need so many things on this team that we dont need to draft a project, or a broken player.

Thats the point. McD thinks with his weiner. And not his brain.

I would have preferred Bradford, or the guy that went first last year (drawing a blank), and originally thought that with the 4 firsts, the Broncos could move up and draft a QB in the top 5 in one of the drafts, but short of that, I'm ok with the Tebow pick. Yes, he's a project, but he's a high upside project, and it isn't like there was a sure thing QB option to draft.

As to Thomas, I don't like the fact he was/is injured, and we've seen with other picks over the years, sometimes those can linger for years. However, based on potential, I can easily see why he was picked over Dez Bryant. This guy is supposed to have TE size with WR speed.

[claymore]

ACTUAL PIX:
2009-MORENO/AYERS (both starting)
2010-DT/TT (injured/#2)

Smith was a #2 rd pick. Just because Sea requires a #1 for him doesnt magically make him one. If you want to play the hypothetcal game, fine, but thats as good as trying to relate MADDEN to the real deal. IMO.
McD failed on smith. He acknowledged it/dealt with it and moved on. GRONK may turn out to be a good swap. Address it after 2011.

DT, TT, AS = non starters.

You can put as much lip stick on it as much as you want.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forumsWe paid the Seahaks a #1 for their #2. So Smith cost us a #1 and alot of pride.


I would have preferred Bradford, or the guy that went first last year (drawing a blank), and originally thought that with the 4 firsts, the Broncos could move up and draft a QB in the top 5 in one of the drafts, but short of that, I'm ok with the Tebow pick. Yes, he's a project, but he's a high upside project, and it isn't like there was a sure thing QB option to draft.

As to Thomas, I don't like the fact he was/is injured, and we've seen with other picks over the years, sometimes those can linger for years. However, based on potential, I can easily see why he was picked over Dez Bryant. This guy is supposed to have TE size with WR speed.

Id rather have alot of QB's over Tebow. To include Josh Freeman.

Dez, I never wanted that guy. And I like DT, but I know our history with hurt players. Drafting a hurt player is retarded. Unless its DT in the 3rd round.

[Dreadnought]

Did you read clay's take on DT? If he's a "broken player, then TS was scrambled. He's ALWAYS hurt, and for every big play he made (not many) he whiffed twice by either missing a block or dropping an easy pass. Putting a saddle on a sow STILL leaves you buttsore. ; )
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Proof once again that making stuff up and repeating it often enough still does not make it so. In four years with the Broncos Scheffler missed a grand total of four games due to injury. As for the rest, well, all I can say is you didn't help your credibility much there either.

[Dzone]

^ I agree, drafting an injured player is stupid. D. Thomas had foot surgery right before the draft..what the H were they thinking?????He is on the inactive list now...If he ends up on IR, someone needs to slap mcdaniels

[claymore]

Did you read clay's take on DT? If he's a "broken player, then TS was scrambled. He's ALWAYS hurt, and for every big play he made (not many) he whiffed twice by either missing a block or dropping an easy pass. Putting a saddle on a sow STILL leaves you buttsore. ; )
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Mods please move this post to the black hole.

[claymore]

^ I agree, drafting an injured player is stupid. D. Thomas had foot surgery right before the draft..what the H were they thinking?????He is on the inactive list now...If he ends up on IR, someone needs to slap mcdaniels

I will forever bitch and moan that he drafted an injured player in the first round... But I am glad he isnt being hurried on the field. I will say that. I dont know if the guy can even walk though...

[topscribe]

I will forever bitch and moan that he drafted an injured player in the first round... But I am glad he isnt being hurried on the field. I will say that. I dont know if the guy can even walk though...

According to the last injury report, DT participated fully in the last practice . . .

-----

[rcsodak]

Proof once again that making stuff up and repeating it often enough still does not make it so. In four years with the Broncos Scheffler missed a grand total of four games due to injury. As for the rest, well, all I can say is you didn't help your credibility much there either.
I'm not making shit up dread. Go back and look at all the injury reports for craps sake. He lived on the thing. And your LACK of rebuttal on the rest shows I was prolly correct, which pisses you off of late. Keep your personal feelings to PM's and address the post unless you can somehow prove intent.
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[rcsodak]

Mods please move this post to the black hole.
:lol:
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[claymore]

I'm not making shit up dread. Go back and look at all the injury reports for craps sake. He lived on the thing. And your LACK of rebuttal on the rest shows I was prolly correct, which pisses you off of late. Keep your personal feelings to PM's and address the post unless you can somehow prove intent.
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He missed 4 games. And you talked about saddeling a pig? What rebuttal is needed when the post is ridiculously inacurate, and off point?

[rationalfan]

Until Tebow, and DT contribute... We have flat out wasted 3 #1 picks this year. There is an argument on Moreno last year, but... I cant fault that pick.

that's only if you expect first round picks to play immediately, which - i believe - most fans do. yet, the draft is for the future. not necessarily the immediate future, but the future. if those players become long time starters, but don't play much for two years are they wasted picks? no.

perhaps i follow the NBA too closely (where the culture is to pick on potential, regardless of whether or not it contributes immediately), but the notion of instant gratification from early nfl draft picks feels very demanding and, at times, unrealistic.

[claymore]

According to the last injury report, DT participated fully in the last practice . . .

-----

Its a Christmas miracle. He made it thru a practice!

[rcsodak]

I will forever bitch and moan that he drafted an injured player in the first round... But I am glad he isnt being hurried on the field. I will say that. I dont know if the guy can even walk though...
You might read updates of practice then. There IS a thread available from whatsherbutt twittering updates, fyi. :rolleyes: Last I read (last wk) he was practicing and McD was hopeful he and at the time, moreno, could play vs jax.
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[rcsodak]

According to the last injury report, DT participated fully in the last practice . . .

-----
But Top, that info doesn't make as much hay in today's Shock posts. Lol
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[claymore]

that's only if you expect first round picks to play immediately, which - i believe - most fans do. yet, the draft is for the future. not necessarily the immediate future, but the future. if those players become long time starters, but don't play much for two years are they wasted picks? no.

perhaps i follow the NBA too closely (where the culture is to pick on potential, regardless of whether or not it contributes immediately), but the notion of instant gratification from early nfl draft picks feels very demanding and, at times, unrealistic.

I am of the feeling that the first and second rd players should start. Maybe reach for a guy in the 2nd... but never the first.

JMO.

[claymore]

You might read updates of practice then. There IS a thread available from whatsherbutt twittering updates, fyi. :rolleyes: Last I read (last wk) he was practicing and McD was hopeful he and at the time, moreno, could play vs jax.
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I care about games, not practice.

[Tned]

Proof once again that making stuff up and repeating it often enough still does not make it so. In four years with the Broncos Scheffler missed a grand total of four games due to injury. As for the rest, well, all I can say is you didn't help your credibility much there either.

Yea, I've given up attempting to correct the revised history. In many cases, it isn't even malicious, but more that one or two games, fumbles, something sticks in people's heads, and then someone who doesn't like the player says, "____ is a fumble machine" or "_____ is injury prone and missed a ton of games" or "____ is a RZ Int throwing machine", etc.

No truth to the statements, other than the fact that if you repeat a falsehood (intentionally or not) enough times, people begin to accept it as fact.

[Dreadnought]

Yea, I've given up attempting to correct the revised history. In many cases, it isn't even malicious, but more that one or two games, fumbles, something sticks in people's heads, and then someone who doesn't like the player says, "____ is a fumble machine" or "_____ is injury prone and missed a ton of games" or "____ is a RZ Int throwing machine", etc.

No truth to the statements, other than the fact that if you repeat a falsehood (intentionally or not) enough times, people begin to accept it as fact.

Similar to how Tatum Bell was somehow a "fumbler" notwithstanding his actual record doesn't indicate that

[The Glue Factory]

I am of the feeling that the first and second rd players should start. Maybe reach for a guy in the 2nd... but never the first.

JMO.

:tsk::lol::tsk:

So Clay is of the feeling something should happen. Alright, time for reality to accomodate Clay! That's your problem dude. You're expecting pigs to fly. No wonder you're so pessamistic about things.

Two truths about the NFL draft
1. It's a crap shoot.
2. It is more about potential and than immediate starting.

AS bad as the Smith draft choice was it still doesn't measure up (down?) to Leaf and the Chargers. Good Lord that was a horrible bust!

[frauschieze]

Go back and look at all the injury reports for craps sake. He lived on the thing.

Meh. So does Tom Brady.

If he plays in the games, what does the injury report matter?

[claymore]

:tsk::lol::tsk:

So Clay is of the feeling something should happen. Alright, time for reality to accomodate Clay! That's your problem dude. You're expecting pigs to fly. No wonder you're so pessamistic about things.

Two truths about the NFL draft
1. It's a crap shoot.
2. It is more about potential and than immediate starting.

AS bad as the Smith draft choice was it still doesn't measure up (down?) to Leaf and the Chargers. Good Lord that was a horrible bust!

The draft is a crap shoot. Its difficult to navigate and come out ahead. McD takes it to a whole new level, and adds un-needed risks to the process.

Laugh all you want, but the only way the Ryan leaf could have been worse, is if he was injured when they drafted him, they traded a future #1 pick to move up and get him, or they didnt need a QB at all that year.

[JaxBroncoGirl]

^ I agree, drafting an injured player is stupid. D. Thomas had foot surgery right before the draft..what the H were they thinking?????He is on the inactive list now...If he ends up on IR, someone needs to slap mcdaniels

At first I did not pay attention about Thomas' foot and then just about 1 week after the draft I wondered why we would draft someone that is already injured. He must have really impressed the team. I would like to see him play so I can understand the decision and hoping he can move the team forward.

[jhildebrand]

Why is that?

Because he isn't intelligent.

[The Glue Factory]

The draft is a crap shoot. Its difficult to navigate and come out ahead. McD takes it to a whole new level, and adds un-needed risks to the process.

Laugh all you want, but the only way the Ryan leaf could have been worse, is if he was injured when they drafted him, they traded a future #1 pick to move up and get him, or they didnt need a QB at all that year.

You missed my point completely. You want first day draft picks to start as rookies but it just doesn't work that way! You might as well buy a broken down 1988 Taurus and expect it to fly.

As for the whole Smith debacle? Yup, McD made a mistake. A very BIG one. At least he admitted it by trading him. Still better than holding onto 32 rejects that never should have played in the NFL (because they aren't) like McD's predecessor. That 32 is a large number of players to replace and the current leadership has only had 2 years to do so. No wonder we're only as good as the previous leadership! We plain haven't had the time to get the people McD wants to replace those 32 rejects.

Rome wasn't built in a day, so stop expecting it to be.

[claymore]

You missed my point completely. You want first day draft picks to start as rookies but it just doesn't work that way! You might as well buy a broken down 1988 Taurus and expect it to fly.

As for the whole Smith debacle? Yup, McD made a mistake. A very BIG one. At least he admitted it by trading him. Still better than holding onto 32 rejects that never should have played in the NFL (because they aren't) like McD's predecessor. That 32 is a large number of players to replace and the current leadership has only had 2 years to do so. No wonder we're only as good as the previous leadership! We plain haven't had the time to get the people McD wants to replace those 32 rejects.

Rome wasn't built in a day, so stop expecting it to be.I didnt miss your point. You are one of a very limited few that think first rounders shouldnt contribute right away.

The previous regime has nothing to do with this ones failures. I dont know why failing 6 years ago would justify failing today. I don get tha line of thinking at all.

Potential is in rounds 3 and later. You are hoping to get starters in rounds 1&2.

[Northman]

This one's easy.

The trade and pick of Quinn in the second round is completely indefensible. No matter how you spin it, it was a dumb move. Drafting a player for their hands when they have 12 total catches in their college career? And even if you ignore that piece, the second round is high for a pure blocking TE.

With Phonz, the potential was there for him to be an impact player, his college record clearly showed that. People could think the trade was outrageous, and still think Phonz had a shot at making a difference. Or they could justify the move up for the chance that Phonz was Champ's heir apparent. People were willing to suspend disbelief and trust McDaniels knew what he was doing because there was at least a body of work which seemed to indicate good things. It's infinitely harder to do that in the Quinn situation.

With the trade to Detroit, all those rose colored thoughts and justifications went out the window. People are going to wail on both sides; those which had it wrong, and those beating their chest to say told you so.

So why the difference with Quinn? With Phonz there has always been debate: is the trade worth it if he turns out to be great? With Quinn, there never has been. The trade and the pick were ridiculous. When everyone is in agreement, there's less conversation and no controversy.

This is why i hated the fact that McD was in such a rush to oust the Goodmans. Had he been a little patient and just worked with the Goodmans for even just his first year he wouldnt of basically shit himself and limited his options come draft time. But the guy was in such a rush to get his own people in there that he did himself a disservice and ended up reaching for players that he shouldnt have. You live and learn but that was a costly choice coming in.

[jhildebrand]

AS bad as the Smith draft choice was it still doesn't measure up (down?) to Leaf and the Chargers. Good Lord that was a horrible bust!

The Smith pick was WAY WORSE. You are viewing this with the benefit of hindsight. At the time of that draft it was almost a 50/50 split on Manning or Leaf for the first pick.

Finally many forget that Leaf played 25 games or so. Smith not so. He was beat out by undrafteds. It will go down as one of the worst picks on any of those BUST shows on NFLN.

[jhildebrand]

Clay is KILLING posts today :eek:

The idea that the draft is a crap shoot or players from the first two or three rounds shouldn't contribute right away just doesn't hold true anymore.

How is it Pittsburgh for the better part of 10 years now is not only drafting well but getting big time production from their rookies? They are good because they draft well and the players produce even as rookies-Woodley, Roethlisberger, Heath Miller, Casey Hampton, Maurkice Pouncey just blasted a 9 year vet out of the C position, the list goes on and on.

SD is winning the division 5 years consecutively because they drafted well. It just so happens that the beginning of their run they had two or three rookies on the O line. You don't see them baby-ing Ryan Matthews. Eric Weddle wasn't given a Brian Dawkins to learn from. Nope, they threw him to the wolves.

I could go on and on.

And finally with regard to DT. I like the guy and his potential but not at his spot in the 1st. To make matters worse the coach immediately compares the kid to Brandon Marshall. So we draft a guy who reminds the coach of a guy we just shipped off whom the coach admitted his injuries were a part (not a large part but a part nonetheless) as to why they weren't going to pay him. WOW!

[The Glue Factory]

I didnt miss your point. You are one of a very limited few that think first rounders shouldnt contribute right away.

The previous regime has nothing to do with this ones failures. I dont know why failing 6 years ago would justify failing today. I don get tha line of thinking at all.

Potential is in rounds 3 and later. You are hoping to get starters in rounds 1&2.

Nor did I say first rounders shouldn't start right away (good lord you're missing at every turn. If you're going to have a discussion at least have the courtesy to not put words in other people's mouth.) I'm ecstatic when they do, but I don't expect them to start right away like some. :rolleyes:

To explicitly state my thoughts on first round draft picks: I hope they have an impact on the team as a starter at some point; perferably by year 2 but it also depends on the position, too. The draft is a crap shoot and even first rounders crap out and fail. You can't always fault leadership for a first round bust (a'la Ryan Leaf.) In the end I trust the leadership to do what's right as they have forgotten much more football than I've ever learned, I just like to be entertained on Sunday afternoons and occasionally Monday nights.

My point about the 32 rejects from the last HC was going in a different direction. Those past failures don't justify today's failures, but do require today's leadership to deal with it. You don't just go replacing 32 players in two years (again point missed, maybe I didn't state it well; so it could be my fault, too.)

[Dreadnought]

The Smith pick was WAY WORSE. You are viewing this with the benefit of hindsight. At the time of that draft it was almost a 50/50 split on Manning or Leaf for the first pick.

Finally many forget that Leaf played 25 games or so. Smith not so. He was beat out by undrafteds. It will go down as one of the worst picks on any of those BUST shows on NFLN.

You are right in that a lot of alleged experts roasted the Colts for drafting Manning rather than the "far more talented" Leaf. Shows what experts know. In fairness, though, I think that when a crap team drafts a QB with the first or second pick of the draft he'd better pan out, or the franchise will be set back for years. Given that kind of investment the team will stick with the kid for 3 years or so at a minimum before they pull the plug. The PR hit alone is disastrous. Ask Al Davis, or Mike Brown, or the Cleveland Browns, or Houston Texans what happens when you pick a QB number one and he misfires badly. Phonz may well go down in Bronco fan lore as a flub to rival Ted Gregory, but Ryan Leaf is a League Wide epic tale of failure. Casual fans still remember LKeaf. Nobody outside Bronco Land will remember Phonz in a few years.

[The Glue Factory]

The Smith pick was WAY WORSE. You are viewing this with the benefit of hindsight. At the time of that draft it was almost a 50/50 split on Manning or Leaf for the first pick.

Finally many forget that Leaf played 25 games or so. Smith not so. He was beat out by undrafteds. It will go down as one of the worst picks on any of those BUST shows on NFLN.

True. No one could predict that Leaf would become a head case the way he did, which is why I say the draft is a crap shoot. There are things that can be done to reduce the chances of picking a bust and things you can do to increase those chances but in the end the draft is a crap shoot.

[jhildebrand]

You are right in that a lot of alleged experts roasted the Colts for drafting Manning rather than the "far more talented" Leaf. Shows what experts know. In fairness, though, I think that when a crap team drafts a QB with the first or second pick of the draft he'd better pan out, or the franchise will be set back for years. Given that kind of investment the team will stick with the kid for 3 years or so at a minimum before they pull the plug. The PR hit alone is disastrous. Ask Al Davis, or Mike Brown, or the Cleveland Browns, or Houston Texans what happens when you pick a QB number one and he misfires badly. Phonz may well go down in Bronco fan lore as a flub to rival Ted Gregory, but Ryan Leaf is a League Wide epic tale of failure. Casual fans still remember LKeaf. Nobody outside Bronco Land will remember Phonz in a few years.

You're abosultely right in that regard. The position of QB only amplifies the failure. Hell most remember Leaf because of his locker room tirade which didn't help matters.

[Northman]

True. No one could predict that Leaf would become a head case the way he did, which is why I say the draft is a crap shoot. There are things that can be done to reduce the chances of picking a bust and things you can do to increase those chances but in the end the draft is a crap shoot.


Indeed. The draft can be a crap shoot but there are reasons why some teams do well in the draft and improve their potential to draft solid to great contributors to their teams. How McD handled it his first year wasnt one of his shining moments.

[claymore]

Nor did I say first rounders shouldn't start right away (good lord you're missing at every turn. If you're going to have a discussion at least have the courtesy to not put words in other people's mouth.) I'm ecstatic when they do, but I don't expect them to start right away like some. :rolleyes:

To explicitly state my thoughts on first round draft picks: I hope they have an impact on the team as a starter at some point; perferably by year 2 but it also depends on the position, too. The draft is a crap shoot and even first rounders crap out and fail. You can't always fault leadership for a first round bust (a'la Ryan Leaf.) In the end I trust the leadership to do what's right as they have forgotten much more football than I've ever learned, I just like to be entertained on Sunday afternoons and occasionally Monday nights.

My point about the 32 rejects from the last HC was going in a different direction. Those past failures don't justify today's failures, but do require today's leadership to deal with it. You don't just go replacing 32 players in two years (again point missed, maybe I didn't state it well; so it could be my fault, too.)
IMO High draft picks should start right away. Mistakes happen, its not a 100%, but it should be the goal.

If we replaced 32 players, why trade high picks, for 2nd round picks, or draft players that are projects, and or injured?

This team has no direction.

[Bosco]

This one's easy.

The trade and pick of Quinn in the second round is completely indefensible. No matter how you spin it, it was a dumb move. Drafting a player for their hands when they have 12 total catches in their college career? And even if you ignore that piece, the second round is high for a pure blocking TE.

So wait, did we draft for his hands or for his blocking? (Hint...it's the later).

And no, the 2nd round was not high for a pure blocking tight end. Most sites had Quinn as an early to mid 3rd rounder and a couple even had him going in the late 2nd. We took him with the very last pick of the 2nd round. Had we not traded up, we wouldn't have been able to draft him as more than one team has publicly stated they were gunning for him in the 3rd.


Agreed. I think the Quinn pick demonstrated that McD had decided that Scheffler was a goner, basically sight unseen at that point. Why? McD knows, but everything else is speculation. Given that TE was a strength (with Graham and Scheffler) on a team with a crapload of weaknesses it suggests that McD was going to flush a bunch of Shanahan favorites regardless of the talent and ability involved. Thats also when I began to question my faith in the guy, after originally being happy with the hiring. It was that dumb and pointless a move. Not at all. McD's offense uses three tight ends rather heavily, especially in goal line situations. Also in 2006 he made Ben Watson one of the most heavily targeted tight ends in the passing game.

Scheffler is gone for only one reason, and it wasn't because he lacked talent.

[jhildebrand]

So wait, did we draft for his hands or for his blocking? (Hint...it's the later).

And no, the 2nd round was not high for a pure blocking tight end. Most sites had Quinn as an early to mid 3rd rounder and a couple even had him going in the late 2nd. We took him with the very last pick of the 2nd round. Had we not traded up, we wouldn't have been able to draft him as more than one team has publicly stated they were gunning for him in the 3rd.

Not at all. McD's offense uses three tight ends rather heavily, especially in goal line situations. Also in 2006 he made Ben Watson one of the most heavily targeted tight ends in the passing game.

Scheffler is gone for only one reason, and it wasn't because he lacked talent.


At the end of the day, it doesn't matter why we drafted him because we can all see how lacking he is in the intelligence department as evidenced by the ripping McDaniels gave to him late in the Jags game for F-ing it up big time.

[Bosco]

At the end of the day, it doesn't matter why we drafted him because we can all see how lacking he is in the intelligence department as evidenced by the ripping McDaniels gave to him late in the Jags game for F-ing it up big time.

Wait, so a single mistake by a 2nd year pro getting his first significant playing time is a sign that he's lacking intelligence?

Right.

[claymore]

Wait, so a single mistake by a 2nd year pro getting his first significant playing time is a sign that he's lacking intelligence?

Right.

I would think his HC chewing his ass out in front of millions of people was the sign. Or Did McD overreact?

[Bosco]

I would think his HC chewing his ass out in front of millions of people was the sign. Or Did McD overreact?

McD chews out everybody who ****s up. Coaches and players.

Ask Mike Priefer about it. I'm convinced that guy has needed the Jaws of Life to get McD off his back a few times.

[Bosco]

Oh, and refs too. He lights those guys up pretty often.

[Dreadnought]

Wait, so a single mistake by a 2nd year pro getting his first significant playing time is a sign that he's lacking intelligence?

Right.

Thats probably a fair criticism. That said, in the case of Richard Quinn there actually is some fragmentary and incomplete direct evidence that he might be a bonehead. That is therefore different from criticisms leveled at some other former players on the Board, which are in many cases made up of whole cloth after the fact.

[jhildebrand]

Wait, so a single mistake by a 2nd year pro getting his first significant playing time is a sign that he's lacking intelligence?

Right.

Well apparently that was the issue for Hillis who was essentially a first year player in his first year in the system getting his first significant playing time coming back from injury.

So seeing how we were constantly told just how DUMB Hillis was, the same MUST hold true for Quinn even more so considering this is his SECOND year in the system. Or are we to believe he is held to a different standard being a player drafted by McD.

[Bosco]

Thats probably a fair criticism. That said, in the case of Richard Quinn there actually is some fragmentary and incomplete direct evidence that he might be a bonehead. That is therefore different from criticisms leveled at some other former players on the Board, which are in many cases made up of whole cloth after the fact.

I'd like to know what evidence that is. Every scouting reporting I've read on him says that he is intelligent with good football sense about him.

[Dreadnought]

I'd like to know what evidence that is. Every scouting reporting I've read on him says that he is intelligent with good football sense about him.

It was on your TV screen Sunday. Like I said, fragmentary and incomplete

[Ravage!!!]

Wait, so a single mistake by a 2nd year pro getting his first significant playing time is a sign that he's lacking intelligence?

Right.

apparenlty McD thought that he should know what he was doing. Why should we expect less?

[jhildebrand]

I'd like to know what evidence that is. Every scouting reporting I've read on him says that he is intelligent with good football sense about him.

The same that you cited against Hillis several times...a few mistakes made by the player following a good ass chewing by the coach.

You contended that Hillis lacked the mental capacity to be trusted on the field for mistakes like that. So I am simply seeing if we should expect the same from Quinn which would be residency on the bench.

[Bosco]

Well apparently that was the issue for Hillis who was essentially a first year player in his first year in the system getting his first significant playing time coming back from injury.

So seeing how we were constantly told just how DUMB Hillis was, the same MUST hold true for Quinn. Or are we to believe he is held to a different standard being a player drafted by McD.

The difference with Hillis is that it happened repeatedly. It happened in college, it was in his scouting reports, it happened under Shanahan and he got benched. It happened under Josh and he got benched again. Follow him in Cleveland and you'll probably see it there too.

When it happens with that kind of frequency, it goes from being a mistake to becoming a serious issue. Make no mistake though, if Quinn goes down that road we will probably see him get shipped out just as quickly.

[jhildebrand]

The difference with Hillis is that it happened repeatedly. It happened in college, it was in his scouting reports, it happened under Shanahan and he got benched. It happened under Josh and he got benched again. Follow him in Cleveland and you'll probably see it there too.

When it happens with that kind of frequency, it goes from being a mistake to becoming a serious issue. Make no mistake though, if Quinn goes down that road we will probably see him get shipped out just as quickly.

Fair enough :D

/negging

[Bosco]

It was on your TV screen Sunday. Like I said, fragmentary and incomplete

I was at the game, actually.


apparenlty McD thought that he should know what he was doing. Why should we expect less? What does one have to do with the other?

[DenBronx]

Can anyone really argue how Quinn, Graham, Gronkowski and Branson (who got cut) are a better option as a pass catching TE than Sheffler was? McD didn't even like the guy or put him on the field. He in fact benched him because Sheffler was outspoken.

If our fans can't see it then I wonder why Detriot can? :confused:

[claymore]

I was at the game, actually.



The guy waving his arms around and screaming at QUinn like an idiot was Josh McDaniels.

R0Pe7f-UHYs

[Bosco]

Can anyone really argue how Quinn, Graham, Gronkowski and Branson (who got cut) are a better option as a pass catching TE than Sheffler was? No, because they're not.


McD didn't even like the guy or put him on the field. He in fact benched him because Sheffler was outspoken. He only caught 9 less passes than he did in 2008.

[jhildebrand]

Being deaf in one ear I can tell you with certainty that McD twice says What the F is he doing (beginning) and after TO what the F are you doing. :lol:

[claymore]

Being deaf in one ear I can tell you with certainty that McD twice says What the F is he doing (beginning) and after TO what the F are you doing. :lol:

It made my 2 kids cry on Thanksgiving and last Sunday. The language of that man is terrible.

[Ravage!!!]

Being deaf in one ear I can tell you with certainty that McD twice says What the F is he doing (beginning) and after TO what the F are you doing. :lol:

haha... dude... I think everyone knows how to read those lips with THAT word :lol: My BLIND grandmother could have seen that! :lol:

helll.. that was so clear, I could HEAR it!!

[claymore]

The guy waving his arms around and screaming at QUinn like an idiot was Josh McDaniels.

R0Pe7f-UHYs

Mods, should I have put this in the lounge? McD says 2 eff words. I dont want the under 18 crowd to see this.

[Bosco]

The guy waving his arms around and screaming at QUinn like an idiot was Josh McDaniels. Like I said, I was there. I was right behind the Broncos bench too. He got Mike Priefer (again) in this game too.

[DenBronx]

Being deaf in one ear I can tell you with certainty that McD twice says What the F is he doing (beginning) and after TO what the F are you doing. :lol:

I like how Quinn thought his tongue lashing was over and tried to run back on the field before Josh pulls him back out for some more lashing. Good to see that out of the coach. Keep these guys focused.

[DenBronx]

I think it was the MNF game that a you could here a defensive player saying F*** YOU! F*** YOU! really really loud and the guys had to cut to a commercial advertisement to silence it out.

[Bosco]

Being deaf in one ear I can tell you with certainty that McD twice says What the F is he doing (beginning) and after TO what the F are you doing. :lol:

Last year in the Patriots game when Darrell Reid had that running into the punter penalty, Josh went absolutely berserk. One of the coaches (Priefer...lol) said something and Josh screamed what I think was "HE SHOULD ******* KNOW BETTER!" A little bit later in the same tirade he's right in Priefer's ear saying what appears to be "I see that shit one time, YOU'RE ******* OUT OF A JOB!".

:laugh:

[Northman]

Moving to take Quinn in the 2nd much like moving up to take Smith were big mistakes. I saw them then and stand by that. The notion that "other" teams were interested in said players is what i like to call "bluffs" or "deception". Shanahan was a master at making draft guru's and pundits alike believe he was going to do one thing in the draft and then do something totally different. McD was green going into that draft and a majority of the other HC's knew it so they basically played McD like a fiddle and made him shit himself into thinking he would lose out on said players. It was a valuable lesson but he got owned in that draft.

[DenBronx]

Moving to take Quinn in the 2nd much like moving up to take Smith were big mistakes. I saw them then and stand by that. The notion that "other" teams were interested in said players is what i like to call "bluffs" or "deception". Shanahan was a master at making draft guru's and pundits alike believe he was going to do one thing in the draft and then do something totally different. McD was green going into that draft and a majority of the other HC's knew it so they basically played McD like a fiddle and made him shit himself into thinking he would lose out on said players. It was a valuable lesson but he got owned in that draft.

Well, to his credit he did work some trading down magic. I knew we were going WR with the 1st pick we had and knew that DT was high on our radar. Why draft Dez if your going after "character" players? Also, Josh was very high on Tebow and there were alot of reports that said we would give him a look in the 2nd.

Basically he traded away a pricey high 1st and got two low first and both players he wanted. There was no need to risk Tebow being gone in the 2nd or no guarantee another team wouldn't trade and pass us up to get him in the 2nd.

But every coach is going to make draft mistakes. There's really a high risk of bust in the NFL. Some guys like Ayers are wait and see scenarios but you just don't go after a pure blocking TE had 9 catches in college in the 2nd, let alone trade UP for him. Dumb! I hope in the future Josh values 1st round picks alot more than he has.

[robert ethan]

I'm pretty sure the Broncs got a conditional pick along with Gronkowski from Detroit for Alphonso Smith. Fourth to sixth round, I heard, depending on Alf. That is what I considered as the "Maroney" factor in the deals. In both cases the compensation averages out to a fifth round pick, one coming, one going. As for Quinn, as I recall, he and his agent didn't even think that he would be drafted, much less in the second round. Normally if players are not particularly athletic and have no production to show as collegians, they end up being UDFA. Of those, normally the super smart, hard working, high character guys manage to eke out a spot. Quinn is not particularly athletic. Gronkowski cleaned his ass in every category at the Combine, he is not particularly smart, if the Wondelic is any indication, and his character sucks, if police reports are to be believed. WTH were they thinking?

[Bosco]

Quinn is not particularly athletic. Gronkowski cleaned his ass in every category at the Combine, he is not particularly smart, if the Wondelic is any indication, and his character sucks, if police reports are to be believed. WTH were they thinking?

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:dovjKA_nfr7l-M:http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090828005910/uncyclopedia/images/0/05/LOL_WUT.gif&t=1

[Tempus Fugit]

At first I did not pay attention about Thomas' foot and then just about 1 week after the draft I wondered why we would draft someone that is already injured. He must have really impressed the team. I would like to see him play so I can understand the decision and hoping he can move the team forward.

The Patriots drafted a tight end who missed his junior season due to a back injury, and didn't stay for his senior year. Gronkowski seems to be doing just fine for them.

[Northman]

I know that Hernandez is scary good for the Pats. I wished we had taken him.

[claymore]

The Patriots drafted a tight end who missed his junior season due to a back injury, and didn't stay for his senior year. Gronkowski seems to be doing just fine for them.

2nd round is a little bit more acceptable when drafting injured players. Especially when you have like 10 2nd round picks.

[dogfish]

I am of the feeling that the first and second rd players should start. Maybe reach for a guy in the 2nd... but never the first.

JMO.

joe haden's not starting in cleveland. . . or dez bryant in dallas. . . or jason pierre-paul in new york, or derrick morgan in tennessee, brian bulaga in green bay, dan williams in arizona, jerry hughes in indy or patrick robinson in new orleans. . . add to our two, and that's close to half of the first round. . . i'm not taking the time to look up the second round, but you can bet there are less starters there than the first, guaranteed. . .


now, you're 100% right if you say that 1st and 2nd rounders should start at some point-- that's a very fair and reasonable expectation. . .

expecting them all to start immediately just because they were high draft picks is silly. . .

[robert ethan]

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:dovjKA_nfr7l-M:http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090828005910/uncyclopedia/images/0/05/LOL_WUT.gif&t=1

Go back and check the Combine tests. Quinn was not at top performer in any category. His Wonderlic score was middling at best for the position. He has had at least one fairly serious police incident since being drafted. What's the charm of this guy?

[Northman]

expecting them all to start immediately just because they were high draft picks is silly. . .

Yes and no. The whole reason those players are rated that high is because they are "supposedly" NFL ready. Some players start out the gate because teams have no better option there. So the players you mentioned while not starting it may be just because they have quality players in front of them. Im sure its not every case but Clay is right when he says that when you draft in the first 2 rounds you place your bets that these guys will be important cogs to your team who probably should be able to contribute pretty early for those teams.

[rcsodak]

He missed 4 games. And you talked about saddeling a pig? What rebuttal is needed when the post is ridiculously inacurate, and off point?

I said he was always hurt! I didn't say he missed 20 games. But being in the trainers office instead of practicing affects his play on the field.

I said he spends more time in the trainers office than he does on the field. That includes practices, DURING GAMES, etc. Being active for a game doesn't necessarily mean he plays. How many games last year was he 'active' and didn't see the field? Rhetorical unless you want to do the research.

This isn't a point that needed clarification. I'm not re-writing any history here. It's common knowledge he was constantly injured and was an average TE when he did ever play. That was my point to the "gaping hole at TE" by another poster (this thread? ugh) that was claimed. He was like Watts, but without the excuse of a bad mitt!

If you think he's a Gates/Clark/Shiancoe, feel free to think that. He was the 3rd best TE in the Division, alone.

Ya'll harp on "potential", and how McD shouldn't be wasting picks on it, but that's ALL TS had. So where's your consistency?

Maybe he'll prove me wrong, as I was high on him when they drafted him and later soured because of his injuries and inconsistencies. But I highly doubt it.

(though I'm not arrogant enough to "guarantee" it) ;)

Offpoint? Howso? Ya'll are trying to make him into something he isn't, thus the saddle on the sow remark. Surprised that got past you, clay. :rolleyes:

[honz]

Go back and check the Combine tests. Quinn was not at top performer in any category. His Wonderlic score was middling at best for the position. He has had at least one fairly serious police incident since being drafted. What's the charm of this guy?
You can bash him all you want, but using that police incident that was completely dropped when the facts came out is a low blow.

[dogfish]

Like I said, I was there. I was right behind the Broncos bench too. He got Mike Priefer (again) in this game too.

good! shoulda fired that guy and got bobby april when we had the chance. . .

[claymore]

I said he was always hurt! I didn't say he missed 20 games. But being in the trainers office instead of practicing affects his play on the field.

I said he spends more time in the trainers office than he does on the field. That includes practices, DURING GAMES, etc. Being active for a game doesn't necessarily mean he plays. How many games last year was he 'active' and didn't see the field? Rhetorical unless you want to do the research.

This isn't a point that needed clarification. I'm not re-writing any history here. It's common knowledge he was constantly injured and was an average TE when he did ever play. That was my point to the "gaping hole at TE" by another poster (this thread? ugh) that was claimed. He was like Watts, but without the excuse of a bad mitt!

If you think he's a Gates/Clark/Shiancoe, feel free to think that. He was the 3rd best TE in the Division, alone.

Ya'll harp on "potential", and how McD shouldn't be wasting picks on it, but that's ALL TS had. So where's your consistency?

Maybe he'll prove me wrong, as I was high on him when they drafted him and later soured because of his injuries and inconsistencies. But I highly doubt it.

(though I'm not arrogant enough to "guarantee" it) ;)

Offpoint? Howso? Ya'll are trying to make him into something he isn't, thus the saddle on the sow remark. Surprised that got past you, clay. :rolleyes:
He played on Sundays. Thats all that counts. Lets see if his production has been replaced.

[Bosco]

Go back and check the Combine tests. Quinn was not at top performer in any category. Really? You have to wonder how NFL Draft Scout had him ranked as a top 5 prospect at his position then. I guess it had nothing to do with having the 3rd best bench reps, top 10 vertical jump and a top 5 broad jump. I guess it's all for not since he didn't run a really fast 40 time, right?


His Wonderlic score was middling at best for the position. Not sure what his wonderlic is, but as I've said on here repeatedly, it's a very flawed test for football players. Here's what his scouting report said about him.


Football Sense: Quinn is a good student who is quick to learn and retain plays. He has very good football instincts, showing urgency getting into his routes and stalking linebackers to block when working in space. He learns and retains plays well and will not have problems dealing with the mental aspect of the game. GRADE: 6.5


Character: Quinn is a mature athlete who comes from a supportive family and shows very good responsibility. He is a good student who is compliant and says the right things. He is well-respected by his teammates and coaches, honoring with being one of the team captains for the 2008 season. GRADE: 6.3


Work Habits: Quinn is one of the team's hardest workers. He is not the type that needs stroking by the coaching staff in order to perform and has no problems with hard coaching. He responds well to criticism and will do whatever it takes to improve his play. He worked hard to rehabilitate from his 2006 fractured shoulder blade and is the type that will play until the whistle. GRADE: 6.2


He has had at least one fairly serious police incident since being drafted. What's the charm of this guy? To my knowledge, his only run in with the law. He plead innocent and was cleared of the charges.

[Northman]

Really? You have to wonder how NFL Draft Scout had him ranked as a top 5 prospect at his position then.


Actually, he wasnt quite that high.


http://profootball.scout.com/a.z?s=127&p=9&c=12&yr=2009&nid=83&lnid=124&rc=4&pid=19

[The Glue Factory]

IMO High draft picks should start right away. Mistakes happen, its not a 100%, but it should be the goal.

That's exactly my point. It's your opinion. It's not how the NFL works.




If we replaced 32 players, why trade high picks, for 2nd round picks, or draft players that are projects, and or injured?

Agree with the first part. Rookie mistake that hasn't been repeated (yet.) Why draft an injured player? b/c he's got potential to be a high impact player post injury. Thought that would be obvious but I guess not.



This team has no direction.

That's the way it may appear to us but it has only been two years and you can't replace 32 rejects in that time. It takes time to (safely) dismantle something horrid and rebuild something beautiful in its place. Unless you'd rather have a few years making the Raiders and Lions look good. Personally, I'd rather have some mediocre years while McD rebuilds than some years of looking atrocious.

[dogfish]

Actually, he wasnt quite that high.


http://profootball.scout.com/a.z?s=127&p=9&c=12&yr=2009&nid=83&lnid=124&rc=4&pid=19

unlike mcD when he decided to draft quinn. . . :laugh:

[claymore]

That's exactly my point. It's your opinion. It's not how the NFL works.




Agree with the first part. Rookie mistake that hasn't been repeated (yet.) Why draft an injured player? b/c he's got potential to be a high impact player post injury. Thought that would be obvious but I guess not.




That's the way it may appear to us but it has only been two years and you can't replace 32 rejects in that time. It takes time to (safely) dismantle something horrid and rebuild something beautiful in its place. Unless you'd rather have a few years making the Raiders and Lions look good. Personally, I'd rather have some mediocre years while McD rebuilds than some years of looking atrocious.
So I cant argue with you if your opinion differs about high draft picks contributing right away. It makes no sense, and I dont care to know your logic behind it.


As for the rebuilding, I think he is doing a shit job. But, we will see.

[I Eat Staples]

Maroney had nothing to do with the Smith trade. We traded Smith straight up for a useless player.

[WARHORSE]

This is why i hated the fact that McD was in such a rush to oust the Goodmans. Had he been a little patient and just worked with the Goodmans for even just his first year he wouldnt of basically shit himself and limited his options come draft time. But the guy was in such a rush to get his own people in there that he did himself a disservice and ended up reaching for players that he shouldnt have. You live and learn but that was a costly choice coming in.

Complete speculation.


How do you know it wasnt the Goodmans who had a problem with the way Josh wanted to do things?


It wouldnt be the first time people comfortable in one regime chaff at the style of the new.


Human nature.


I wouldnt paste this on either side of this coin.

It was done because it was brought to that point by everyone involved.


Had the Goodmans had the power, Im sure it would have been Josh who was handed his walking papers.

[frauschieze]

So wait, did we draft for his hands or for his blocking? (Hint...it's the later).

And no, the 2nd round was not high for a pure blocking tight end. Most sites had Quinn as an early to mid 3rd rounder and a couple even had him going in the late 2nd. We took him with the very last pick of the 2nd round. Had we not traded up, we wouldn't have been able to draft him as more than one team has publicly stated they were gunning for him in the 3rd.



Hint: McD did state that he drafted for hands, which is why I addressed both.

Also, I disagree with your second paragraph. The first sentence is a matter of opinion. The last is pure conjecture.

[Northman]

Complete speculation.


How do you know it wasnt the Goodmans who had a problem with the way Josh wanted to do things?


It wouldnt be the first time people comfortable in one regime chaff at the style of the new.


Human nature.


I wouldnt paste this on either side of this coin.

It was done because it was brought to that point by everyone involved.


Had the Goodmans had the power, Im sure it would have been Josh who was handed his walking papers.

:lol:

Perhaps, but i would definitely be more confident in my senario than yours considering the history.

[honz]

unlike mcD when he decided to draft quinn. . . :laugh:
Even as a McD apologist, I have to say that was funny.

[Dreadnought]

Even as a McD apologist, I have to say that was funny.

Part of being a good apologist is knowing when and where to pick your battles. A die hard Shanahan apologist, for example, knows enough to never mention the names Marcus Nash or George Foster when discussing draft decisions, nor do we defend the signing of big fat Sam Adams. Smart McDaniels apologists would be wise to defend the Tebow, Moreno, Demaryius Thomas, and Ayers picks, as those have the potential to some day make him look good. Richard Quinn and Alphonso Smith...not so much

[Tempus Fugit]

Part of being a good apologist is knowing when and where to pick your battles. A die hard Shanahan apologist, for example, knows enough to never mention the names Marcus Nash or George Foster when discussing draft decisions, nor do we defend the signing of big fat Sam Adams. Smart McDaniels apologists would be wise to defend the Tebow, Moreno, Demaryius Thomas, and Ayers picks, as those have the potential to some day make him look good. Richard Quinn and Alphonso Smith...not so much

Does anyone have an offensive player snap breakdown from the game?

[The Glue Factory]

So I cant argue with you if your opinion differs about high draft picks contributing right away. It makes no sense, and I dont care to know your logic behind it.


As for the rebuilding, I think he is doing a shit job. But, we will see.

It's hard to argue with you when you don't recognize reality being different than your opinion. It just took this long to finally get to that point. If you don't care about my opinion then there really is no point to discuss/debate as you're just interested in ranting about your viewpoint. Perhaps starting your own blog would be less frustrating for you.

[arapaho2]

Wait, so a single mistake by a 2nd year pro getting his first significant playing time is a sign that he's lacking intelligence?


Right.

in the book joshes fan boys wrote about hillis it was

[arapaho2]

joe haden's not starting in cleveland. . . or dez bryant in dallas. . . or jason pierre-paul in new york, or derrick morgan in tennessee, brian bulaga in green bay, dan williams in arizona, jerry hughes in indy or patrick robinson in new orleans. . . add to our two, and that's close to half of the first round. . . i'm not taking the time to look up the second round, but you can bet there are less starters there than the first, guaranteed. . .


now, you're 100% right if you say that 1st and 2nd rounders should start at some point-- that's a very fair and reasonable expectation. . .

expecting them all to start immediately just because they were high draft picks is silly. . .

i would say it depends on area of need...and why drafted

if you have a line that got your qb killed...gave up tons of sacks and pressures and you draft a line man in the 1st..he should start

if you trade away a two time probowl wr,or have no legit #1wr caliber wr.....and draft one in the first...he should start

if you draft a great college LT in the 1st because..your present solid LT is going to be a FA after the season...it may be ok to set him

same for QBif your like the packers and know favre days are numbered you take a craCK at his eventual replacement allowing a year or two to season
if your the rams..you pick one to start

in our case weneeded NT's...linebackers, wrs..TE...lineman...DEs...and we took a wr that was hurt

[Bosco]

Actually, he wasnt quite that high.


http://profootball.scout.com/a.z?s=127&p=9&c=12&yr=2009&nid=83&lnid=124&rc=4&pid=19

That's not NFL Draft Scout though. :D They're completely seperate from Scout.com


Also, I disagree with your second paragraph. The first sentence is a matter of opinion. Do you disagree because YOU feel it's too high or because you think the league feels it's too high?


The last is pure conjecture. No, it's not. Quinn's agent went on record stating that Texans GM Rick Smith was going to draft Quinn in the 3rd.

http://www.gazette.com/sports/quinn-54275-round-agent.html

[frauschieze]

Do you disagree because YOU feel it's too high or because you think the league feels it's too high?

Both, actually. But then it's only my opinion, so there is no proving it right OR wrong. :hi:


No, it's not. Quinn's agent went on record stating that Texans GM Rick Smith was going to draft Quinn in the 3rd.

http://www.gazette.com/sports/quinn-54275-round-agent.html

Ah. I hadn't seen that article before, thanks for posting. Interestingly enough, it seems to solidify that popular opinion at the time was that Quinn was a mid round pick at best.

Forgive me if I don't completely buy his agent's report, however. Talking up his client is his job. I don't think he'd outright lie with that deal about the Texans, as that may really hurt his credibility with the team in future negotiations, but stretch the truth? You betcha, I think he would.

[rcsodak]

He played on Sundays. Thats all that counts. Lets see if his production has been replaced.

:laugh:

Shouldn't be too difficult.

[Tned]

:laugh:

Shouldn't be too difficult.

Really, you're going to go with that line? :laugh:

I'm assuming that's an attempt at humor, rather than you simply not realizing the kind of production that Scheffler was putting up while still so early in his career.

I believe he led all TE's in YPR over a three year period, and was far more productive from the TE spot than McDaniels' favorite, Jabar Gaffney, was from the WR spot over the same time frame.

[robert ethan]

Off topic, but Scheffler had to go. He wasn't much of a blocker which McDaniels' offensive schemes call for, and he was deliberately undermining the coaching staff. As fate would have it the 5th round pick they got for him brought Perrish Cox, who was ultimately the guy who made Alphonso Smith redundant. Cox beat out Alf, Alf was traded to Detroit for a TE to replace Scheffler in Gronkowksi. Dan is a much better blocker, and while he doesn't have Scheffler's speed, his catching skills are just as good in the short area, which is all the offense requires from him. Plus Gronkowksi is the ultimate team player, and was a three time Academic All American at Maryland. Those qualities offset any loss of production via Scheffler's absence and more.

[Northman]

Off topic, but Scheffler had to go. He wasn't much of a blocker which McDaniels' offensive schemes call for, and he was deliberately undermining the coaching staff. As fate would have it the 5th round pick they got for him brought Perrish Cox, who was ultimately the guy who made Alphonso Smith redundant. Cox beat out Alf, Alf was traded to Detroit for a TE to replace Scheffler in Gronkowksi. Dan is a much better blocker, and while he doesn't have Scheffler's speed, his catching skills are just as good in the short area, which is all the offense requires from him. Plus Gronkowksi is the ultimate team player, and was a three time Academic All American at Maryland. Those qualities offset any loss of production via Scheffler's absence and more.

Well, thats if McD actually utilizes him in that capacity.

[jhildebrand]

Dan is a much better blocker, and while he doesn't have Scheffler's speed, his catching skills are just as good in the short area, which is all the offense requires from him.


You are basing this on? :confused:



Plus Gronkowksi is the ultimate team player, and was a three time Academic All American at Maryland. Those qualities offset any loss of production via Scheffler's absence and more.

We have yet to see what kind of team player he is. We have yet to see him take the field.

I love this character shit everybody is trying to sell. Believe me, I want like-able guys on this roster. But, at some point, it is about producing and winning.

[robert ethan]

Gronkowski played in the first game and caught a pass. Not much to go on, but he'd only been here a week or so. Still more than Quinn has managed in a year plus.

[robert ethan]

Dan won several community service awards in college along with his academic achievements. He was a member of the Terrapin Council, which is a fairly exclusive leadership group, as well as being a Rhodes Scholar nominee. I doubt he is going to show up on the police blotters and have to meet with Roger Goodell as a member of the Broncos.

[Bosco]

Forgive me if I don't completely buy his agent's report, however. Talking up his client is his job. I don't think he'd outright lie with that deal about the Texans, as that may really hurt his credibility with the team in future negotiations, but stretch the truth? You betcha, I think he would.

I might be willing to accept that had it not happened after the fact. Quinn had already been drafted, so what would be the point of stretching the truth? There's nothing to gain from it, except quickly souring a relationship with the exact same guy he'd be negotiating with on behalf of any clients he may have with the Texans. Talk about taking a sledgehammer to your profession there.

That aside, I don't see much room for stretching the truth. He says that Rick Smith was going to draft Quinn in the middle of the 3rd. That either happened, or it didn't. Not much gray area in there, and to my knowledge no one with the Texans has ever contested that statement either.

[bcbronc]

Gronkowski played in the first game and caught a pass. Not much to go on, but he'd only been here a week or so. Still more than Quinn has managed in a year plus.


Dan won several community service awards in college along with his academic achievements. He was a member of the Terrapin Council, which is a fairly exclusive leadership group, as well as being a Rhodes Scholar nominee. I doubt he is going to show up on the police blotters and have to meet with Roger Goodell as a member of the Broncos.

jeebus, a frickin Gronkowski troll? just what this board needed. :rolleyes:


I don't get the extreme distaste for the Quinn deal. would people be as upset if that deal was made for Daniel Graham? or would they rather spend oodles of cash to sign Graham as a UFA?

even if Quinn doesn't end up as good as Graham, he's in that mold. end of the day, we traded Kraig Urbik (who's already on his 2nd team) and Mike Wallace for Dick Quinn and Seth Olsen. not exactly ground breaking, although Wallace looks to be the best of the lot at this point. If Quinn can contribute now as a blocker in short-yardage/goalline situations and develop into Graham's replacement when Graham's deal expires, it will be a good deal. whether that will happen or not, we'll see.

[frauschieze]

I might be willing to accept that had it not happened after the fact. Quinn had already been drafted, so what would be the point of stretching the truth? There's nothing to gain from it, except quickly souring a relationship with the exact same guy he'd be negotiating with on behalf of any clients he may have with the Texans. Talk about taking a sledgehammer to your profession there.

That aside, I don't see much room for stretching the truth. He says that Rick Smith was going to draft Quinn in the middle of the 3rd. That either happened, or it didn't. Not much gray area in there, and to my knowledge no one with the Texans has ever contested that statement either.

It's hard to know what the truth is, because there's very little said by the agent that is concrete, and we've no way of verifying anything. The alleged conversation with the Texans happened before the draft according to the article, and then there were supposedly teams who were going to draft him in the second round but obviously, they didn't.

The article reeks of blowing smoke, but like I said, I'll give them the Texans one....but nothing more. The bolded part of you post I agree with, and tried to say but you were more eloquent in doing so. :)

[I Eat Staples]

I doubt he is going to show up on the police blotters

He won't show up on the stat sheet either.

[robert ethan]

jeebus, a frickin Gronkowski troll? just what this board needed. :rolleyes:

Once Quinn catches his first NFL pass he'll only be 1,000 yards behind Wallace. The guy is a toad, and he was one before they wasted valuable draft capital on him. That's what hurts.

[I Eat Staples]

Once Quinn catches his first NFL pass he'll only be 1,000 yards behind Wallace. The guy is a toad, and he was one before they wasted valuable draft capital on him. That's what hurts.

That still doesn't have anything to do with Gronkowski. We now have 2 bad TEs on our roster.

[DenBronx]

Off topic, but Scheffler had to go. He wasn't much of a blocker which McDaniels' offensive schemes call for, and he was deliberately undermining the coaching staff. As fate would have it the 5th round pick they got for him brought Perrish Cox, who was ultimately the guy who made Alphonso Smith redundant. Cox beat out Alf, Alf was traded to Detroit for a TE to replace Scheffler in Gronkowksi. Dan is a much better blocker, and while he doesn't have Scheffler's speed, his catching skills are just as good in the short area, which is all the offense requires from him. Plus Gronkowksi is the ultimate team player, and was a three time Academic All American at Maryland. Those qualities offset any loss of production via Scheffler's absence and more.


You don't always need two blocking TE's. Maybe sometimes our offense will have two pure blocking TE's but most of the time we do not. While Sheffler had average blocking skills he more than made up for it in the passing game. Gronkowski is no where near the talent Sheffler is in the air, short or long ball. And we traded for Gronkowski not for his blocking skills but because we thought he might be a better option then Bransen, who was considered our "pure pass catching TE."

Sheffler wanted to win and was voicy about his opinions. You don't bench a TE like Sheffler just for being voicy. Joshs' ego got in the way of winning ballgames last year. Same with benching Marshall on the last game. Call them names and bash them all you want but they put up points for us.


Please explain how he "underminded" the coaching staff.

[robert ethan]

I don't think that Gronkowksi is specifically a blocking or receiving tight end. He can do both. He started out strictly as a blocker but as a senior he was second on the team to Heyward-Bey in catchs. Scheffler as a senior was second to Greg Jennings on his team. But Scheffler came out of the rinky dink offenses of the MAC. Gronkowski came out of the ACC which is known for producing top tight ends. I think Gronk can be similar to Daniel Graham as an all round player at the position. Broncos have lots of wide receivers they can throw out there if they need pure pass catching ability.

Interestingly enough for the poster who was pimping the NFLDraftScout site, Scheffler was rated by them as the 10th best TE in the 2006 draft. He was listed at 6-6 254 pounds and projected as a 5th round pick. In 2009 at the same site, Gronkowski was the 10th best TE prospect at 6-6 255, and also projected as a 5th round pick.

[horsepig]

Man! I had actually managed to completely bury any memories of Ted Gregory until I read this dead horse beating thread. Aaaarrgghhh!

[DenBronx]

I don't think that Gronkowksi is specifically a blocking or receiving tight end. He can do both. He started out strictly as a blocker but as a senior he was second on the team to Heyward-Bey in catchs. Scheffler as a senior was second to Greg Jennings on his team. But Scheffler came out of the rinky dink offenses of the MAC. Gronkowski came out of the ACC which is known for producing top tight ends. I think Gronk can be similar to Daniel Graham as an all round player at the position. Broncos have lots of wide receivers they can throw out there if they need pure pass catching ability.

Interestingly enough for the poster who was pimping the NFLDraftScout site, Scheffler was rated by them as the 10th best TE in the 2006 draft. He was listed at 6-6 254 pounds and projected as a 5th round pick. In 2009 at the same site, Gronkowski was the 10th best TE prospect at 6-6 255, and also projected as a 5th round pick.


Nice BIO of the two Tight Ends Robert but could you still please explain the underminding part? I'm a little puzzled. It sounds a little like you're saying he tried to divide the locker room.

IIRC, Sheffler loved it here in Denver, loved the fans and played very hard for us. Detriot should be happy with him.

[robert ethan]

The scuttlebutt was that Scheffler was best buddies with Cutler and never accepted McDaniels. Also Josh's offense focuses on the wide receivers and calls for the tight end to block more. At the end of last season he and Marshall were mailing it in, and Scheffler was overheard saying he couldn't wait for the season to be over. That while the team was still in the hunt for a playoff spot. So Josh nailed their asses to the bench in the last game and handed them a ticket out of town. There was no other alternative. Essentially he has Tebow to show for Marshall, and Cox to show for Scheffler, with an extra second round pick next season. The team is better off for it.

[Ravage!!!]

The scuttlebutt was that Scheffler was best buddies with Cutler and never accepted McDaniels. Also Josh's offense focuses on the wide receivers and calls for the tight end to block more. At the end of last season he and Marshall were mailing it in, and Scheffler was overheard saying he couldn't wait for the season to be over. That while the team was still in the hunt for a playoff spot. So Josh nailed their asses to the bench in the last game and handed them a ticket out of town. There was no other alternative. Essentially he has Tebow to show for Marshall, and Cox to show for Scheffler, with an extra second round pick next season. The team is better off for it.

So no facts, just purely what you "think" happened with them and in the locker room. I'd like to see how you figure either one "mailed it in." But I'm sure thats just going to be more made up material and extended conjecture.

[DenBronx]

The scuttlebutt was that Scheffler was best buddies with Cutler and never accepted McDaniels. Also Josh's offense focuses on the wide receivers and calls for the tight end to block more. At the end of last season he and Marshall were mailing it in, and Scheffler was overheard saying he couldn't wait for the season to be over. That while the team was still in the hunt for a playoff spot. So Josh nailed their asses to the bench in the last game and handed them a ticket out of town. There was no other alternative. Essentially he has Tebow to show for Marshall, and Cox to show for Scheffler, with an extra second round pick next season. The team is better off for it.

Can you provide a link that proves Scheffler never accepted McDaniels or a direct quote of him saying "he couldn't wait for the season to be over"???

[jhildebrand]

I find the idea of players in the NFL "mailing it in" to be prepostorous! That is how people get injured. Players in the position that Marshall and Scheffler were in, know they are auditioning for 31 other teams.

If Brandon Marshall mailed it in during the Indy game, I would sure hate to see what could happen when he tried. It wouldn't even be fair.

Let's get this thread back to topic too. It isn't about Gronkowski. The guy wont even be here next year! The issue is we traded for a RB who probably wont be active on Sunday and who knows when he will be ready.

[Tempus Fugit]

Can you provide a link that proves Scheffler never accepted McDaniels or a direct quote of him saying "he couldn't wait for the season to be over"???


Werder reported Scheffler was benched for openly saying he couldn’t wait for the team’s season to end.

http://espn.go.com/blog/afcwest/post/_/id/8707/in-the-end-denver-didnt-make-progress

[DenBronx]

http://espn.go.com/blog/afcwest/post/_/id/8707/in-the-end-denver-didnt-make-progress

Werder took that out of context and didn't report the whole story. Nothing was ever a direct quote.

Have a look.



http://www.denverpost.com/premium/broncos/ci_14108873?source=email#ixzz0bVe1rNMp


Benching "doesn't sit well" with Scheffler

All but buried amid the Brandon Marshall drama is Broncos coach Josh McDan- iels' benching of tight end Tony Scheffler for the game Sunday against the Kansas City Chiefs for a non-injury-related reason.

"I'm a competitor and have worked extremely hard this offseason to be able to fight for a chance to make the playoffs," Scheffler said Friday. "Him taking that away doesn't sit very well with me or some of my teammates."

Scheffler has been frustrated by his reduced role this season — he has 31 catches for 416 yards in 15 games, after catching 40 passes for 645 yards in 13 games last year.

He apparently expressed his frustration to a few teammates after the Broncos' 30-27 loss last Sunday to Philadelphia, and word got back to coach Josh McDaniels.

Scheffler was informed Wednesday by an assistant coach that he would not be dressing for the game Sunday against the Chiefs and would spend the week of practice on the scout squad.
"To be honest, I haven't even heard from Josh," Scheffler said.

CBS4 reported that Tony Scheffler was also angry with how the offense would not stretch the field vertically and utilize him.


This doesn't sound like a guy that wanted to quit. :coffee:

[robert ethan]

Well, I suppose the original "topic" of the thread was based on my belief that the Broncos got a conditional 6th to 4th round pick along with Dan Gronkowski for Alphonso Smith. But with the way draft picks and future considerations get passed around, we may never know for certain if that was the case. If it was the case then the draft considertion averages out to be a 5th round pick. Which is what the draft cost for Maroney averages out to. So if they gain a 5th rounder in one deal and lose one in another shortly thereafter, you can cheat a bit and combine the deals. But, granted, it involves a lot of conjecture.

I don't know if future draft picks even matter that much. You don't know where they are going to land, what your options will be at that point, and how the guy you pick turns out. I think about half of the first round picks this year were traded at least once. So you have to go on the live bodies. Maroney and Gronkowski are here, Smith is gone. Even if you substitute Earl Thomas for Smith, I could live with the exchange.

[Tempus Fugit]

Werder took that out of context and didn't report the whole story. Nothing was ever a direct quote.

Have a look.



http://www.denverpost.com/premium/broncos/ci_14108873?source=email#ixzz0bVe1rNMp


Benching "doesn't sit well" with Scheffler

All but buried amid the Brandon Marshall drama is Broncos coach Josh McDan- iels' benching of tight end Tony Scheffler for the game Sunday against the Kansas City Chiefs for a non-injury-related reason.

"I'm a competitor and have worked extremely hard this offseason to be able to fight for a chance to make the playoffs," Scheffler said Friday. "Him taking that away doesn't sit very well with me or some of my teammates."

Scheffler has been frustrated by his reduced role this season — he has 31 catches for 416 yards in 15 games, after catching 40 passes for 645 yards in 13 games last year.

He apparently expressed his frustration to a few teammates after the Broncos' 30-27 loss last Sunday to Philadelphia, and word got back to coach Josh McDaniels.

Scheffler was informed Wednesday by an assistant coach that he would not be dressing for the game Sunday against the Chiefs and would spend the week of practice on the scout squad.
"To be honest, I haven't even heard from Josh," Scheffler said.

CBS4 reported that Tony Scheffler was also angry with how the offense would not stretch the field vertically and utilize him.


This doesn't sound like a guy that wanted to quit. :coffee:

Nothing there undercuts Werder's report. It reinforces it.

[Ravage!!!]

Well, I suppose the original "topic" of the thread was based on my belief that the Broncos got a conditional 6th to 4th round pick along with Dan Gronkowski for Alphonso Smith. But with the way draft picks and future considerations get passed around, we may never know for certain if that was the case. If it was the case then the draft considertion averages out to be a 5th round pick. Which is what the draft cost for Maroney averages out to. So if they gain a 5th rounder in one deal and lose one in another shortly thereafter, you can cheat a bit and combine the deals. But, granted, it involves a lot of conjecture.

I don't know if future draft picks even matter that much. You don't know where they are going to land, what your options will be at that point, and how the guy you pick turns out. I think about half of the first round picks this year were traded at least once. So you have to go on the live bodies. Maroney and Gronkowski are here, Smith is gone. Even if you substitute Earl Thomas for Smith, I could live with the exchange.

I have to say that the way you are twisting the perspective on the draft picks and how they work out to "even" is not how I see it at all. I guess thats just how some like to justify moves.

[Ravage!!!]

Nothing there undercuts Werder's report. It reinforces it.

Werder's report wasn't more than heresay. Hard to take that seriously, especially the way reporters take snidbits of info and make it out to be something much different than from what the original statement was....moreso when they weren't even there to hear the original statement.

[robert ethan]

Another way of making it "even" out is to look at if from the perspective that the Broncs traded a former second round pick and a future 5th round pick for a former first round pick and a former seventh round pick. That is fair exchange by the draft value chart.

[robert ethan]

Werder's report wasn't more than heresay. Hard to take that seriously, especially the way reporters take snidbits of info and make it out to be something much different than from what the original statement was....moreso when they weren't even there to hear the original statement.

You have to be awfully cynical (and naive) to assume that McDaniels would bench two healthy regulars for the most critical game of the season purely out of spite. His ass was on the line more than anyone else's. There HAD to be strong reasons.

[Bosco]

Werder's report wasn't more than heresay. Hard to take that seriously, especially the way reporters take snidbits of info and make it out to be something much different than from what the original statement was....moreso when they weren't even there to hear the original statement.

Ok then, why was Scheffler benched? He had to do something that lead to several well respected veterans going to McDaniels with the issue.

[Ravage!!!]

You have to be awfully cynical (and naive) to assume that McDaniels would bench two healthy regulars for the most critical game of the season purely out of spite. His ass was on the line more than anyone else's. There HAD to be strong reasons.

Really? Its hard to believe that McD made a decision based on an emotional reaction, seriously?

[Ravage!!!]

Another way of making it "even" out is to look at if from the perspective that the Broncs traded a former second round pick and a future 5th round pick for a former first round pick and a former seventh round pick. That is fair exchange by the draft value chart.

Except that we used a first round pick to acquire Smith. So its an exchange for the 14th overall pick in the draft for a future 5th round pick..... to get the same kind of player that we just traded away, to the very same team that we traded them away to. Then the player we traded away, made the player we ended up getting expendable because the player we ended up getting wasn't even going to make the roster due to the fact that the player we traded away beat him out.

Lets just be up front about it. No matter how you try to twist this, this wasn't a good deal. This was a staff making some major boo-boos.

But hey... if you want to twist it and turn it and make it spin so that some polished, shiny side, is face up.... more power to you

[Lonestar]

Just read a few posts and before I read any more let me say.

Draft picks a crap shoots the top 100 should be pretty close to NOT being bad but there are lots of busts over the years with DEN having MORE than their fair share.

OK someone said we had Five #1 choices the last two years.

Maybe I missef the press relase but we had one in each year and got two for jay in that trade. Let's see if I have the math straight 1+1+2=5. Must have missed that "higher new" math class.

Also IIRC we had 4 actuall first round picks ayers, moreno, DT and Tebow. With the original 4 picks or did I miss that also.

If Josh would have used a #2 on smith would we be having this pissing contest.

Have plane to catch
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[Bosco]

Really? Its hard to believe that McD made a decision based on an emotional reaction, seriously?


Ok then, why was Scheffler benched? He had to do something that lead to several well respected veterans going to McDaniels with the issue.

^^^

[Tempus Fugit]

Werder's report wasn't more than heresay. Hard to take that seriously, especially the way reporters take snidbits of info and make it out to be something much different than from what the original statement was....moreso when they weren't even there to hear the original statement.

From the quote you pulled:


He apparently expressed his frustration to a few teammates

Again, nothing there undercut Werder's report. It reinforced it.

[DenBronx]

Nothing there undercuts Werder's report. It reinforces it.

Again, nowhere is there ever a direct quote of Scheffler saing that. Werder reported a here say, he said she said from a player, coach or trainer.

Absolutely no credit should be given to that.

[jhildebrand]

Ok then, why was Scheffler benched? He had to do something that lead to several well respected veterans going to McDaniels with the issue.

If you referring to the so called incident where DJ, Champ, and Dawk supposedly went to McD and asked for the benching of both Schef and Marshall, that was shown to be a complete lie!

Alfred Williams and DMAC both asked Champ that live late last season to which Champ categorically denied any such conversation or incident or any thing that could be construed as such!

[dogfish]

Again, nowhere is there ever a direct quote of Scheffler saing that. Werder reported a here say, he said she said from a player, coach or trainer.

Absolutely no credit should be given to that.

yea, but what about that time chef got staring at mcD's wife's ass at the team function?

[Tempus Fugit]

Again, nowhere is there ever a direct quote of Scheffler saing that. Werder reported a here say, he said she said from a player, coach or trainer.

Absolutely no credit should be given to that.

Why would I not give credit to it? A reporter broke a story. That story has not been demonstrated to be false and, in fact, has been strengthened, by subsequent events. If you've got refutations, fire them away. Otherwise, it stands up just fine.

[DenBronx]

Really? Its hard to believe that McD made a decision based on an emotional reaction, seriously?

It was purely arrogance. When playoffs are on the line as a HC you need to be a leader and pull the team together. Tempers I know where high and players were tired of losing. If the fans we're tired of seeing the team lose then I'm pretty sure alot of the actual players that started the season at 6-0 we're also very frustrated.

Anything could have happened that last game and we needed Marshall and Scheffler in a big way.

I'm not bashing Josh but that wasn't smart. I don't even care about the draft positions, I would have rather seen us go 9-7 and have something to build on going into this year. Shanahan went .500 the last 3 years? We're supposed to be getting better not letting egos get in the way of the overall goal of winning championships.

[DenBronx]

Why would I not give credit to it? A reporter broke a story. That story has not been demonstrated to be false and, in fact, has been strengthened, by subsequent events. If you've got refutations, fire them away. Otherwise, it stands up just fine.

The problem with that report Tempus is,

A. No where does Werder provide a direct quote.
B. He reported something someone told them they "overheard"
C. The so called "source" never was identified.
D. No true statement was given, rather it was more of a brief summary of what they thought was said.
E. The true report was given through the DenverPost and Scheffler clarified it.


If I was a gambling man I wouldn't bet a dime on the report.

[DenBronx]

yea, but what about that time chef got staring at mcD's wife's ass at the team function?


I would too! :D

[robert ethan]

Also IIRC we had 4 actuall first round picks ayers, moreno, DT and Tebow. With the original 4 picks or did I miss that also.

If Josh would have used a #2 on smith would we be having this pissing contest.

Have plane to catch
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Over the past two years, the four original picks would have been #12 and #18 in 2009 (Moreno and Ayers) and #11 (traded back twice) and #14 (traded for #37 in 2009 [Smith] for 2010. The #11 pick was eventually the basis for Thomas at #22 and Decker at #87. The #25 pick for Tebow was a combination of the #43 pick they got for Marshall, along with a couple extra picks from trading #11 back in the draft. If you're happy with Thomas and Tebow, it really doesn't matter whether they used the #11 and #14 picks to get them or the #22 and #25 picks. I'm happy with the overall results. Particularly since Orton was just a effective as Cutler last year and is the same age.

[Bosco]

If you referring to the so called incident where DJ, Champ, and Dawk supposedly went to McD and asked for the benching of both Schef and Marshall, that was shown to be a complete lie!

Alfred Williams and DMAC both asked Champ that live late last season to which Champ categorically denied any such conversation or incident or any thing that could be construed as such!

Do you have a link? That would sure be news to me.

[I Eat Staples]

Scheffler was benched for saying he can't wait for the season to be over. Why is that so bad? If you're having a bad day, you want it to be over and start a new one. You don't want to give up on life. It's the same for NFL seasons, he wanted what became a bad season to be over and start a new one, he didn't want to quit.

Cole Hamels said he couldn't wait for the season to be over while the Phillies were playing in the world series. He's currently still a Phillie and pitching very well. Saying something like that is no reason to bench or trade a player.

[Lonestar]

IIRC Champ ONLY refuted asking Josh to bench TS. But did not deny going to Josh telling him something needed to be done.

Personally I thought that even with marshall and ts benched/inactive that they were not missed all that much considering it was the defense that screwed the pooch in that last game. IIRC gaffeny stepped up and had 14 catches.

Anyone that thinks both of them were not distractions in the lockeroom just need to move on. There were many quotes by other players that stated all of the locker room have been moved out.

They are both in places they wanted to be and maybe will not issuses for their new TEAM.

The scheme we run is not dependent on a receiving TE PERIOD. The TE is more of a blocking 3rd and 4th OT. Pass catching is way down the list of priorities.

Folks it is time to let the memory of TD and SS go as we are now a Pass first and that means crossing patterns meant to confuse the D and rubbing them off of the WR's to get them open. The RBs running are to keep the D honest and pass receiving as dump offs.

That is the offense that PAT hired Josh to run. Them are the facts folks. Get used to it. That means lots of WR's are going to get catches and expected to get YAC and RBs will be in the 800-900 yards running.

Just think of this as an entended WCO offense that is passes are (LONG hand offs) now are just longer passes to anyone that is open.
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[jhildebrand]

Do you have a link? That would sure be news to me.

Go to fm 104.3 the fan's site. It was up several times last year. They asked Champ on live radio on remote at a Buffalo Wild Wings. Champ, IIRC, even went so far as to say neither DJ nor Dawk had any say either.

I am sure it is on their podcasts from around the KC game date.