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WARHORSE
09-15-2010, 04:42 AM
Broncos GM Xanders confident a smart game plan is in place to revitalize roster
By Mike Klis
The Denver Post
POSTED: 09/15/2010 01:00:00 AM MDT

It's been awhile since the men upstairs at Dove Valley seemed to be smart.

The men upstairs at Broncos headquarters, coach Josh McDaniels and general manager Brian Xanders, understand how it works. They know smarts are directly related to winning, and the Broncos have lost nine of their last 11 games — including their season opener Sunday at Jacksonville, 24-17.

When a team slumps, every transaction made by the football operations department — including acquiring running back Laurence Maroney from the New England Patriots in a trade Tuesday — is scrutinized.

It looked bad three weeks ago when the bosses essentially dumped cornerback Alphonso Smith, upon whom the team placed a first-round draft pick value as recently as 2009, and released defensive end Jarvis Green, who as recently as March was considered worth a $3.255 million guarantee.

Not considered: Even with the wasted investment in Smith and Green, and the $600,000 in bonuses paid to Brandon Stokley before his release, the Broncos' "dead money" against the salary cap this year, if there were a salary cap, is only $8.2 million. Their wasted cash is $6 million.

Both figures are in the bottom five of the NFL, according to two league sources. A far cry from a Broncos franchise that from 1998-2009 was No. 1 in dead money, according to the sources.

"It depends on perspective," Xan-ders said. "Those were two decisions in one day, but the goal was to get better in terms of trying to make the roster better. It's not a decision of 'We drafted him here,' or 'We paid this guy in free agency.' We work the roster process purely on football decisions.

"(Broncos owner) Pat Bowlen and the fans want the best team out there on Sunday, not a team that's preserving decisions in the offseason."

Xanders agreed to address the team's plan and some of the surprise decisions made while setting the Broncos' 53-man roster. Team executives know that until the


Broncos start winning, convincing their fan base that an intelligent plan has been formulated is difficult.
On the plus side, they point to a roster turnover from when McDaniels inherited the head coaching job in January 2009.

"We let go of 32 players from 2008 (roster and practice squad) who were here who never played in the NFL again," Xanders said. "There's a plan in place. We're laying the foundation for success. And most of the decisions have been productive."

Green was the only major flop from a free-agent list that since March 2009 includes Brian Dawkins, Jabar Gaff-ney, Brandon Lloyd, Andre Goodman, Renaldo Hill, Correll Buckhalter, Justin Bannan and Jamal Williams.

These Broncos are considerably larger, and more physical at the line of scrimmage, than most recent Denver teams. It's too early to say the Broncos are better up front, but they appear better equipped to handle such rugged teams as those typically fielded in the NFC East and AFC East.

But can the Broncos miss on such players as Smith and Green and eventually win?

"There's always inherent risk in every transaction — whether it's a trade or a signing or a draft selection," Xanders said. "But as a whole, we feel good about the summation of the decisions we've made the last two years."

The Miami Dolphins cut a second- round pick from the 2009 draft (Pat White) and just released center Jake Grove, who received a $14.5 million guarantee before last season and played in only 10 games.

This season, more than any other, teams seemed willing to cut their losses. Arizona cut its 2009 second-round pick (Cody Brown) and gave up on quarterback Matt Leinart after paying him roughly $14.5 million.

Seattle still owes nearly $7 million to T.J. Houshmandzadeh. Four teams — the Broncos (Smith), Arizona (Brown), Miami (White) and Cleveland (David Viekune) — gave up on their 2009 second-round draft picks.

It took guts for Xanders and McDaniels to admit mistakes on their initial evaluation of Smith and Green.

The moves might have even been called smart had the Broncos defeated Jacksonville.



Read more: Broncos GM Xanders confident a smart game plan is in place to revitalize roster - The Denver Post http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_16077150#ixzz0zafCDHm8

Jaws
09-15-2010, 04:50 AM
I love it when a plan comes together.

bcbronc
09-15-2010, 04:56 AM
"We let go of 32 players from 2008 (roster and practice squad) who were here who never played in the NFL again," Xanders said.

:boom:

Elevation inc
09-15-2010, 05:19 AM
:boom:

that was a eye opener for sure......this thread is sure to get interesting.....its also hilarious that people were trashing the new regime about dead money because of jarvis green as example when we are in the top 5 best teams this year......its also telling we were in the top 5 the bad way from 1998-2009

but then again how much of this article is really fact and not just sources? think its a interesting topic for sure....

Tned
09-15-2010, 06:32 AM
that was a eye opener for sure......this thread is sure to get interesting.....its also hilarious that people were trashing the new regime about dead money because of jarvis green as example when we are in the top 5 best teams this year......its also telling we were in the top 5 the bad way from 1998-2009

but then again how much of this article is really fact and not just sources? think its a interesting topic for sure....

There is no such thing as dead money in an uncapped year. If people want to criticize McDaniels or Xanders, base it on something real. Dead money isn't.

Is it 'wasted' cash? Maybe, but that happens to every team, and is not 'dead money'.

This is the year to get out of any bad contracts, many teams are doing it, because there is no cap hit. I would much rather they admit a decision, cut the player(s) and move on, then to compound a problem by keeping the player.

Also, every team, including the Broncos in the past, pickup aging free agents that they think have something left, only to find during TC/Pre-season or in the early part of the season that they can't help the team and aren't worth a roster spot. Better to cut your losses when that happens.

claymore
09-15-2010, 07:36 AM
"We let go of 32 players from 2008 (roster and practice squad) who were here who never played in the NFL again," Xanders said.

And we arent any better.

Thnikkaman
09-15-2010, 08:45 AM
And we arent any better.

Or worse.

Troll.

claymore
09-15-2010, 08:46 AM
Or worse.

Troll.

I think we are on the decline. So thats a matter of opinion.

Doosh.

Dreadnought
09-15-2010, 08:52 AM
Or worse.

Troll.

At nine losses in eleven regular season (and hopefully not counting) I think a reasonable person might be forgiven for thinking that whatever plan has been assembled is frankly a pretty dumb one. They better turn this thing around, like, yesterday. I think we have made a number of solid defensive roster moves, but the overall net looks pretty bad right about now.

claymore
09-15-2010, 08:54 AM
At seven regular season losses in a row (and hopefully not counting) I think a reasonable person might be forgiven for thinking that whatever plan has been assembled is frankly a pretty dumb one. They better turn this thing around, like, yesterday. I think we have made a number of solid defensive roster moves, but the overall net looks pretty bad right about now.

What are we 2-9 over the last 11 games? thats a big decline. We will know more on Sunday though.

turftoad
09-15-2010, 08:56 AM
I love it when a plan comes together.

I don't see any plan comming together. :shocked:

Mike
09-15-2010, 09:00 AM
What are we 2-9 over the last 11 games? thats a big decline. We will know more on Sunday though.

If we lose at home to Seattle, I might be moving a little closer to your side.

BigDaddyBronco
09-15-2010, 09:11 AM
This article told me what I wanted to know. When people were bemoaning the lost money for J. Green and A. Smith, I wanted to know how the $6 Million compared to other teams "dead space". Bottom 5 in the league. I'm sure Bowlen can live with that.

broncofaninfla
09-15-2010, 09:16 AM
Xanders and Mcd are clueless when it comes to building a running game. That will be the death of them both. Their bad decsions are compounding, Bowlen made a mistake with hiring both of them.

Nomad
09-15-2010, 09:37 AM
If we lose at home to Seattle, I might be moving a little closer to your side.

I'll give it to the end of the season but losing to Seattle at Mile High would be a big disappointment!!

Northman
09-15-2010, 09:52 AM
I'll give it to the end of the season but losing to Seattle at Mile High would be a big disappointment!!

Its more than that really. When you take over and you have a plan the idea is too improve and start winning games. As pointed out in the article we've lost 9 of the last 11. Thats not improvement and a loss to Seattle at home would only make matters worse for Bronco Nation. The schedule is "easier" as ive seen a lot of people on here make predictions that we should win 9-11 games this year. I dont really consider Seattle one of those "difficult" teams so losing to them wouldnt do anything to encourage me in that aspect. It is a long season so time will tell but right now the wheels are still coming off the bus.

claymore
09-15-2010, 09:57 AM
Its more than that really. When you take over and you have a plan the idea is too improve and start winning games. As pointed out in the article we've lost 9 of the last 11. Thats not improvement and a loss to Seattle at home would only make matters worse for Bronco Nation. The schedule is "easier" as ive seen a lot of people on here make predictions that we should win 9-11 games this year. I dont really consider Seattle one of those "difficult" teams so losing to them wouldnt do anything to encourage me in that aspect. It is a long season so time will tell but right now the wheels are still coming off the bus.

Pete Carrol will probably overachieve the next few games like we did last year because opposing teams have a lack of game film on him.

jhildebrand
09-15-2010, 10:04 AM
Well I would sure like to know what that plan is?

From my vantage point it is undervaluing draft picks and overvaluing NE castoffs and other FA's.

I would much rather see us keep our picks, use them, and play the youth!

Nomad
09-15-2010, 10:05 AM
Its more than that really. When you take over and you have a plan the idea is too improve and start winning games. As pointed out in the article we've lost 9 of the last 11. Thats not improvement and a loss to Seattle at home would only make matters worse for Bronco Nation. The schedule is "easier" as ive seen a lot of people on here make predictions that we should win 9-11 games this year. I dont really consider Seattle one of those "difficult" teams so losing to them wouldnt do anything to encourage me in that aspect. It is a long season so time will tell but right now the wheels are still coming off the bus.

What's your point in regards to what I said!:confused: It would be something to hang your head losing to Seattle at home, we agree on that! They lost a tough game on the road which many of you (maybe not you) had already considered a loss and whose to say Jacksonville is going to be a bad team. Too me many of you are contridicting yourselves because you can predict a loss then say the sky is falling! Will this team be improved 4, 6, 8 weeks from now, hell I don't know, but I'll give this team a chance to gel before I write them off! They may not get better and it'll be easy to see that as the weeks go by, then as I said earlier, I will be on claymore's bandwagon!

Northman
09-15-2010, 10:10 AM
What's your point in regards to what I said!:confused: It would be something to hang your head losing to Seattle at home, we agree on that! They lost a tough game on the road which many of you (maybe not you) had already considered a loss and whose to say Jacksonville is going to be a bad team. Too me many of you are contridicting yourselves because you can predict a loss then say the sky is falling! Will this team be improved 4, 6, 8 weeks from now, hell I don't know, but I'll give this team a chance to gel before I write them off! They may not get better and it'll be easy to see that as the weeks go by, then as I said earlier, I will be on claymore's bandwagon!

Basically i guess my point is im already disappointed so in terms of myself i dont really need to wait until the end of the season to feel that way. Ive seen the same issues all around on this team that we had under the previous regime. And stop yelling!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You will be fine, just take a deep breath. :D

Dreadnought
09-15-2010, 10:20 AM
What's your point in regards to what I said!:confused: It would be something to hang your head losing to Seattle at home, we agree on that! They lost a tough game on the road which many of you (maybe not you) had already considered a loss and whose to say Jacksonville is going to be a bad team. Too me many of you are contridicting yourselves because you can predict a loss then say the sky is falling! Will this team be improved 4, 6, 8 weeks from now, hell I don't know, but I'll give this team a chance to gel before I write them off! They may not get better and it'll be easy to see that as the weeks go by, then as I said earlier, I will be on claymore's bandwagon!

None of us have a crystal ball, and so none of us can do more than speculate. That said, when you have deep misgivings about the decision making, leadership and direction of the team - and the team goes 6-0 out of the chute - you need to reevaluate your priginal thinking, because you just might have been wrong. Now as time has progressed, and after nine losses in eleven games you don't think you have seen any progress, you have to wonder if they replaced the right 32 guys? Nate Webster, Calvin Lowry, Niko Koutouvides, sure, those are easy. Maybe even Brandon Marshall I could agree needed to go. Ben Hamilton was a fine player until age caught up with him. Our Free Agency has mostly been better than most ofthe Shanahan era, certainly while Sundquist was GM. Our drafts? Not so much - and if I'm right that Moreno will never be anything special even worse than that. So - the question remains - did we just get rid of 32 guys only to replace them with 32 other guys who are older and/or not as good at playing football? The signs are very troubling

NightTrainLayne
09-15-2010, 10:22 AM
At seven regular season losses in a row (and hopefully not counting) I think a reasonable person might be forgiven for thinking that whatever plan has been assembled is frankly a pretty dumb one. They better turn this thing around, like, yesterday. I think we have made a number of solid defensive roster moves, but the overall net looks pretty bad right about now.

7 in row? I count 5.

Not in any way good, but please :pray: don't make it worse than it is.

Dreadnought
09-15-2010, 10:24 AM
7 in row? I count 5.

Not in any way good, but please :pray: don't make it worse than it is.

Roger, you are correct - I had to recheck last years schedule. I though somehow we lost to, won, two, then lost out. It was lost four, won two, then lost four

Nomad
09-15-2010, 10:30 AM
Basically i guess my point is im already disappointed so in terms of myself i dont really need to wait until the end of the season to feel that way. Ive seen the same issues all around on this team that we had under the previous regime. And stop yelling!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You will be fine, just take a deep breath. :D

Not yelling!! I'm cool, I just have a habit of using exclamation points!! I guess I could use a refresher on grammar school!!:lol: It's just I'm trying to remain a glass half full until Mcdaniels and co proves me wrong!! But I do see the deficiencies (sp) in this team!

jhildebrand
09-15-2010, 10:31 AM
I'd be curious to see which teams in the NFL over the last two or three seasons had the most amount of FA's (i.e. built through FA) and what their records were.

I would be willing to bet there weren't too many playoff teams and, in general, their records weren't too good.

broncophan
09-15-2010, 10:39 AM
I'll give it to the end of the season but losing to Seattle at Mile High would be a big disappointment!!

If we lose at home to Seattle......we are worse than I thought....opening the season with a loss to the Jags and Seahawks would really be a disappointment.....and looking at our next 4 games.....we could be looking at an 0-6 start.....now.....hopfully we come out and play well and get a good convincing win....then the next 4 games would not seem as bad.......I am just saying if we don't play well.....it could get ugly the next few games.....looking at the schedule.

Nomad
09-15-2010, 10:47 AM
None of us have a crystal ball, and so none of us can do more than speculate. That said, when you have deep misgivings about the decision making, leadership and direction of the team - and the team goes 6-0 out of the chute - you need to reevaluate your priginal thinking, because you just might have been wrong. Now as time has progressed, and after seven straight losses you don't think you have seen any progress, you have to wonder if they replaced the right 32 guys? Nate Webster, Calvin Lowry, Niko Koutouvides, sure, those are easy. Maybe even Brandon Marshall I could agree needed to go. Ben Hamilton was a fine player until age caught up with him. Our Free Agency has mostly been better than most ofthe Shanahan era, certainly while Sundquist was GM. Our drafts? Not so much - and if I'm right that Moreno will never be anything special even worse than that. So - the question remains - did we just get rid of 32 guys only to replace them with 32 other guys who are older and/or not as good at playing football? The signs are very troubling

I don't have misgivings!! I look at it giving a new HC a chance to prove his decision making, leadership, and direction of the team! If he fails then it's on him and Bowlen! I have approved of some of his moves and scratch my head at others!! I'm not dumb when it comes to the game of football and looking at talent and I don't consider myself an NFL guru either! As far as the drafts, it's a crap shoot!! We could have drafted Orakpo and SD drafted Moreno, and Orakpo could have been just another Moss and Moreno another LT!! I've always been a person who believes a team with strong foundations (front lines) is a team going to succeed!! And you are right signs are troubling because we lack those foundations!!

T.K.O.
09-15-2010, 10:47 AM
why does losing 9 of the last 11 sound so much worse than 8 of 10 ?
that part hit me in the face when i read the article......
OK....the chiefs beat the bolts and that may end up going a long way to keep the div race tight.
a big part of the chiefs win was the rowdy and loud crowd,kept the offense of the bolts off balance....let that be a lesson to the denver fans.
the old mile high is gone and so it seems are the days when denver has a great "home field advantage"...bring it BACK !
time to put down that glass of chablis and get LOUD !
i wanna hear the THUNDER through my infinity speakers on sunday ( i cant bring the noise until the jets game) so i'm counting on you....YOU know who you are !:salute::elefant::beer:

Northman
09-15-2010, 11:00 AM
Not yelling!! I'm cool, I just have a habit of using exclamation points!! I guess I could use a refresher on grammar school!!:lol: It's just I'm trying to remain a glass half full until Mcdaniels and co proves me wrong!! But I do see the deficiencies (sp) in this team!

Nah, just giving you a hard time. :D

Thnikkaman
09-15-2010, 11:17 AM
Since we lost the AFC championship game with Shanahan, our team was 24-24 over those 3 seasons. Under McDaniels, we are 8-9.

Seems like par for the course to me. They have a plan. That's great. I want results by the end of next season. Earlier would be nice, but I'm willing to be patient.

BigDaddyBronco
09-15-2010, 11:19 AM
Since we lost the AFC championship game with Shanahan, our team was 24-24 over those 3 seasons. Under McDaniels, we are 8-9.

Seems like par for the course to me. They have a plan. That's great. I want results by the end of next season. Earlier would be nice, but I'm willing to be patient.
I want my cake, and I want it now!

Northman
09-15-2010, 11:20 AM
Since we lost the AFC championship game with Shanahan, our team was 24-24 over those 3 seasons. Under McDaniels, we are 8-9.

Seems like par for the course to me. They have a plan. That's great. I want results by the end of next season. Earlier would be nice, but I'm willing to be patient.

You are, some aren't and thats ok too.

slim
09-15-2010, 11:22 AM
Since we lost the AFC championship game with Shanahan, our team was 24-24 over those 3 seasons. Under McDaniels, we are 8-9.

Seems like par for the course to me. They have a plan. That's great. I want results by the end of next season. Earlier would be nice, but I'm willing to be patient.

I want results by the end of this season.

I have given McD the benefit of the doubt so far, but if there is no improvement this year, that will change.

rationalfan
09-15-2010, 11:35 AM
interesting thread.

i'm neutral on whether "the plan" is effective or destructive (need results for verification). but two things in this thread jump out at me:

1. there needs to be more time to evaluate the process of mcd and xanders. yes, we all want wins right now, but a few losses does not equal a total failure of principle. example: had new orleans canned sean payton after a few seasons of mediocrity and poor defense they wouldn't have allowed his plan to evolve into a super bowl. now, i must clarify, i'm not predicting mcd will lead the broncos to a super bowl. but we need more time to evaluate his methods.

2. whether everyone admits it or not, there's still the ongoing subtext of mcd vs. shanny. this thread seems to suggest that getting rid of 32 scrubs from shanny's regime hasn't made the team better - or worse. yet, it's always predicated on the notion that somehow the team would be better with shanny's system. yet, i'm not convinced the team would be better with shanny's system and players still in place. in fact, i think the team would be worse. too many divas and not enough beef.

Thnikkaman
09-15-2010, 11:46 AM
You are, some aren't and thats ok too.

I totally agree. I'm just offering a perspective. Its your choice to see it that way.

silkamilkamonico
09-15-2010, 11:47 AM
Since we lost the AFC championship game with Shanahan, our team was 24-24 over those 3 seasons. Under McDaniels, we are 8-9.

Seems like par for the course to me. They have a plan. That's great. I want results by the end of next season. Earlier would be nice, but I'm willing to be patient.

I cannot believe how terribly patient Bowlen was with Shanahan. People are starting to bite McDaniels head off (and I'm going to join them if we don't start winning in the next couple weeks), and he hasn't even been here 1/3 of Shanahan's stretch.

If McDaniels doesn't cut, the next coach to come in will have likely a year to turn things around before the fanbase gets impatient with him too. And the worse thing about that is we'll be stuck with a QB in Tim Tebow that he likely will not want as his starter.

Northman
09-15-2010, 11:53 AM
interesting thread.

i'm neutral on whether "the plan" is effective or destructive (need results for verification). but two things in this thread jump out at me:

1. there needs to be more time to evaluate the process of mcd and xanders. yes, we all want wins right now, but a few losses does not equal a total failure of principle. example: had new orleans canned sean payton after a few seasons of mediocrity and poor defense they wouldn't have allowed his plan to evolve into a super bowl. now, i must clarify, i'm not predicting mcd will lead the broncos to a super bowl. but we need more time to evaluate his methods.

The only problem here is that it was pretty easy to see that NO was on the right track to building something. You could see the progress right away even though it didnt always translate to wins.


2. whether everyone admits it or not, there's still the ongoing subtext of mcd vs. shanny. this thread seems to suggest that getting rid of 32 scrubs from shanny's regime hasn't made the team better - or worse. yet, it's always predicated on the notion that somehow the team would be better with shanny's system. yet, i'm not convinced the team would be better with shanny's system and players still in place. in fact, i think the team would be worse. too many divas and not enough beef.

Maybe, but ive never been sold on the idea that McD (if indeed he is a great coach) couldnt work with that kind of talent if he really tried. But from day one he was just as stubborn and immature as the guys he was throwing in the doghouse. Plenty of blame to go around if you ask me.

BigDaddyBronco
09-15-2010, 11:54 AM
I cannot believe how terribly patient Bowlen was with Shanahan. People are starting to bite McDaniels head off (and I'm going to join them if we don't start winning in the next couple weeks), and he hasn't even been here 1/3 of Shanahan's stretch.

If McDaniels doesn't cut, the next coach to come in will have likely a year to turn things around before the fanbase gets impatient with him too. And the worse thing about that is we'll be stuck with a QB in Tim Tebow that he likely will not want as his starter.
The impatience of owners wanting instant gratification is what puts good franchises in a hole they have a hard time getting out of. Look at the Redskins for example. Replacing coaches every couple of years have netted them nothing but a decade of mediocre to bad teams.

I just think the Texans, Broncos, Giants, etc. have a better plan of not going for instant gratification and try and build a stable franchise for the long haul. To do that you have to give your coaches 3-4 years time to rebuild the system and have their draft classes start producing.

silkamilkamonico
09-15-2010, 12:02 PM
The only problem here is that it was pretty easy to see that NO was on the right track to building something. You could see the progress right away even though it didnt always translate to wins.




I'm not so sure it's considerably different than our situation. NO's first year, they did make the playoffs, they started hot (like us), and they had a terrible defense and an upstart offense. They also were in one of the worst divisions in football at the time and they were playing a last place schedule.

The following year they bombed out of the gate, and finished the season with questions surrounding their "franchise" QB, and a clueless defense. They also had a young coach who was considered an awful playcaller. Payton has lost more than his fair share of games just on 4th quarter playcalling alone.

And before anyone wants to argue they at least had a QB, it wasn't until 2009 when Drew Brees even registered a 4th quarter come from behind win, and that was directly attributed to a punt return TD by Bush against the Bucs.

I'm not looking at the Saints as a comparison though. We better start winning, and soon.

Northman
09-15-2010, 12:10 PM
I'm not so sure it's considerably different than our situation. NO's first year, they did make the playoffs, they started hot (like us), and they had a terrible defense and an upstart offense. They also were in one of the worst divisions in football at the time and they were playing a last place schedule.



No offense, but our division is no barn burner either. But i agree, this year i need to see some improvement.

slim
09-15-2010, 12:14 PM
It is a good point (about stability in the coaching staff), but only if there is noticable improvement on the field.

Look as Wade Philips, for example. It was clear he wasn't ready to be a head coach (and maybe he will never be) and Pat pulled the plug quickly.

underrated29
09-15-2010, 12:16 PM
Wow, what a tough crowd.


Rome was not built in a day.




Mcd plan just like any plan takes some time to get built. He has had 1 full season and 1 game, and 1 and a half offseasons to get this foundation in place.

It is like building a house, the foundation is there. We all know it (TT,DT,Decker,Moreno, the OL, the dbs)- But just because we have a solid foundation on which to build does not mean that if it rains we wont get wet. So we are going to lose some games until we get the roof put on our foundation. That takes more than 1.5 offseasons and 1 season and 1 game.

In addition to that, we have all these fine pieces that we cant even see yet, because of our HELLISH luck with injuries. If after this season is over and there still seems like there are no signs of improvement and No potential for the next year, then yes, it is time to start the fires. But holy hell- look how long the lions have been crappy, kubes in houston, cincy, the saints, the packers...........All those teams were shit for a long long time, and now they are just starting to make some noise. Why do we have to be the exception and make the noise after 1 year and 1 game?

jhildebrand
09-15-2010, 12:18 PM
All those teams were shit for a long long time, and now they are just starting to make some noise. Why do we have to be the exception and make the noise after 1 year and 1 game?

Because we weren't as bad off as those teams were to begin with. Furthermore, those teams ended up being that way by allowing bad hires to linger too long i.e. Detroit with Millen, Cinci with David Shula and more, etc...

underrated29
09-15-2010, 12:27 PM
Because we weren't as bad off as those teams were to begin with. Furthermore, those teams ended up being that way by allowing bad hires to linger too long i.e. Detroit with Millen, Cinci with David Shula and more, etc...




Hou has always been 8-8- just like us. The packers were right around that mark too. Same with the jets. (the most overrated team ever) All teams right or near our record.

Northman
09-15-2010, 12:28 PM
Why do we have to be the exception and make the noise after 1 year and 1 game?

Because its my favorite team?

slim
09-15-2010, 12:30 PM
Because its my favorite team?

Exactly. It is hard to be patient when it's the Broncos.

rationalfan
09-15-2010, 12:30 PM
Maybe, but ive never been sold on the idea that McD (if indeed he is a great coach) couldnt work with that kind of talent if he really tried. But from day one he was just as stubborn and immature as the guys he was throwing in the doghouse. Plenty of blame to go around if you ask me.

quite right.

Lonestar
09-15-2010, 12:36 PM
There is no such thing as dead money in an uncapped year. If people want to criticize McDaniels or Xanders, base it on something real. Dead money isn't.

Is it 'wasted' cash? Maybe, but that happens to every team, and is not 'dead money'.

This is the year to get out of any bad contracts, many teams are doing it, because there is no cap hit. I would much rather they admit a decision, cut the player(s) and move on, then to compound a problem by keeping the player.

Also, every team, including the Broncos in the past, pickup aging free agents that they think have something left, only to find during TC/Pre-season or in the early part of the season that they can't help the team and aren't worth a roster spot. Better to cut your losses when that happens.

While it really is not dead money against "the cap" it is DEAD money all the same. regardless of how you wish to call it.

The author tried to give it perspective for not other reason so his readers can relate to it the same way.

Lonestar
09-15-2010, 12:48 PM
Broncos GM Xanders confident a smart game plan is in place to revitalize roster
By Mike Klis
The Denver Post
POSTED: 09/15/2010 01:00:00 AM MDT

It's been awhile since the men upstairs at Dove Valley seemed to be smart.

The men upstairs at Broncos headquarters, coach Josh McDaniels and general manager Brian Xanders, understand how it works. They know smarts are directly related to winning, and the Broncos have lost nine of their last 11 games — including their season opener Sunday at Jacksonville, 24-17.

When a team slumps, every transaction made by the football operations department — including acquiring running back Laurence Maroney from the New England Patriots in a trade Tuesday — is scrutinized.

It looked bad three weeks ago when the bosses essentially dumped cornerback Alphonso Smith, upon whom the team placed a first-round draft pick value as recently as 2009, and released defensive end Jarvis Green, who as recently as March was considered worth a $3.255 million guarantee.

Not considered: Even with the wasted investment in Smith and Green, and the $600,000 in bonuses paid to Brandon Stokley before his release, the Broncos' "dead money" against the salary cap this year, if there were a salary cap, is only $8.2 million. Their wasted cash is $6 million.

Both figures are in the bottom five of the NFL, according to two league sources. A far cry from a Broncos franchise that from 1998-2009 was No. 1 in dead money, according to the sources.

"It depends on perspective," Xan-ders said. "Those were two decisions in one day, but the goal was to get better in terms of trying to make the roster better. It's not a decision of 'We drafted him here,' or 'We paid this guy in free agency.' We work the roster process purely on football decisions.

"(Broncos owner) Pat Bowlen and the fans want the best team out there on Sunday, not a team that's preserving decisions in the offseason."

Xanders agreed to address the team's plan and some of the surprise decisions made while setting the Broncos' 53-man roster. Team executives know that until the


Broncos start winning, convincing their fan base that an intelligent plan has been formulated is difficult.
On the plus side, they point to a roster turnover from when McDaniels inherited the head coaching job in January 2009.

"We let go of 32 players from 2008 (roster and practice squad) who were here who never played in the NFL again," Xanders said. "There's a plan in place. We're laying the foundation for success. And most of the decisions have been productive."

Green was the only major flop from a free-agent list that since March 2009 includes Brian Dawkins, Jabar Gaff-ney, Brandon Lloyd, Andre Goodman, Renaldo Hill, Correll Buckhalter, Justin Bannan and Jamal Williams.

These Broncos are considerably larger, and more physical at the line of scrimmage, than most recent Denver teams. It's too early to say the Broncos are better up front, but they appear better equipped to handle such rugged teams as those typically fielded in the NFC East and AFC East.

But can the Broncos miss on such players as Smith and Green and eventually win?

"There's always inherent risk in every transaction — whether it's a trade or a signing or a draft selection," Xanders said. "But as a whole, we feel good about the summation of the decisions we've made the last two years."

The Miami Dolphins cut a second- round pick from the 2009 draft (Pat White) and just released center Jake Grove, who received a $14.5 million guarantee before last season and played in only 10 games.

This season, more than any other, teams seemed willing to cut their losses. Arizona cut its 2009 second-round pick (Cody Brown) and gave up on quarterback Matt Leinart after paying him roughly $14.5 million.

Seattle still owes nearly $7 million to T.J. Houshmandzadeh. Four teams — the Broncos (Smith), Arizona (Brown), Miami (White) and Cleveland (David Viekune) — gave up on their 2009 second-round draft picks.

It took guts for Xanders and McDaniels to admit mistakes on their initial evaluation of Smith and Green.

The moves might have even been called smart had the Broncos defeated Jacksonville.



Read more: Broncos GM Xanders confident a smart game plan is in place to revitalize roster - The Denver Post http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_16077150#ixzz0zafCDHm8

During that fiasco we called mike the GM, he carried players day one picks, PICK that you should be building your team with, as well as day two picks
for the most part disappeared after their 3rd TC got caught up in the hype of newer (yet unknown failures) and released with out much contribution to the team over those 3 years.

Go back and look at those players and see how many got a second contract IN DENVER. In case you do not wish two it was 6 our of 30 something. (day one picks) 3 of which were LB's.

http://www.nfl.com/draft/history/fulldraft?teamId=1400&type=team

So to say that is was JUST dead cap space for the most part it was dead money those first few years also. and while they may have played it certainly was not at the level they should have.


I believe that Josh has a plan and Pat is behind it and it will take a few years for them to get to that place. where the starters are good to great with some quality back ups that can step in when they move on or get hurt and we do not miss much of a step.

turftoad
09-15-2010, 12:51 PM
During that fiasco we called mike the GM, he carried players day one picks, PICK that you should be building your team with, as well as day two picks
for the most part disappeared after their 3rd TC got caught up in the hype of newer (yet unknown failures) and released with out much contribution to the team over those 3 years.

Go back and look at those players and see how many got a second contract IN DENVER. In case you do not wish two it was 6 our of 30 something. (day one picks) 3 of which were LB's.

http://www.nfl.com/draft/history/fulldraft?teamId=1400&type=team

So to say that is was JUST dead cap space for the most part it was dead money those first few years also. and while they may have played it certainly was not at the level they should have.


I believe that Josh has a plan and Pat is behind it and it will take a few years for them to get to that place. where the starters are good to great with some quality back ups that can step in when they move on or get hurt and we do not miss much of a step.

Looks to me like he's gotten rid of MORE good to great players than he's brought since he's started.

slim
09-15-2010, 01:13 PM
Looks to me like he's gotten rid of MORE good to great players than he's brought since he's started.

I think it is a wash, at best.

There really are not that many good to great players he has let go (see the 32 players released that no other team has picked up).

Lonestar
09-15-2010, 01:21 PM
Its more than that really. When you take over and you have a plan the idea is too improve and start winning games. As pointed out in the article we've lost 9 of the last 11. Thats not improvement and a loss to Seattle at home would only make matters worse for Bronco Nation. The schedule is "easier" as ive seen a lot of people on here make predictions that we should win 9-11 games this year. I dont really consider Seattle one of those "difficult" teams so losing to them wouldnt do anything to encourage me in that aspect. It is a long season so time will tell but right now the wheels are still coming off the bus.

While SAE might HAVE been seen as a weak sister, it is hard to tell especially since we have a lot of talent on that team and it has been under coached for along time. EVEN IMO when Holmgren was there.

With Pete back in the saddle in the NFL he was a damned fine coach before just did not want to deal with the primadonnas in the NFL and was an outstanding coach in college.

I suspect they will be a good team this year in a really weak division.

I hope we beat them BUT am not holding my breath until we do. It should be a good game barring injuries.

Dreadnought
09-15-2010, 01:29 PM
I think it is a wash, at best.

There really are not that many good to great players he has let go (see the 32 players released that no other team has picked up).

Well, you can certainly ID some duds we can all agree we are better off without. The problem is I can't readily ID good to great players he has brought in either, at least any under the age of 33. I like Buckhalter a lot, but I think he is nearing the end of the line if he isn't there already. I was a huge Andra Davis fan, but he's now gone. Dawk is terrific, but he's almost as old as Topscribe - speaking of whom, it is fair to say Top has a higher opinion of Kyle Orton than I do (Top likes Kyle better than Kyle's own Mom does, so thats not really a stretch.) Jamal Williams - well, he might have a good/great year or three left, but thats it. I think we are sub-par at WR until Demaryius and/or Decker can start to contribute, not much at RB, not much O-Line anymore unless the rooks step up, and where our defense has strengths it is also old. The TE situation doesn't bear discussion. This looks haphazard to me, not like a cleverly crafted Master plan. So where, then are the actual pieces to turn this thing around?

Lonestar
09-15-2010, 01:29 PM
I'd be curious to see which teams in the NFL over the last two or three seasons had the most amount of FA's (i.e. built through FA) and what their records were.

I would be willing to bet there weren't too many playoff teams and, in general, their records weren't too good.

IF you have to replace 32 Players on you team and most if not all of them are no longer playing in the NFL the DRAFT is not the only place you can fill those holes with. you have to do the math. 7 picks a year is only 14 of those 32.

This team was thread bare at best when Josh came to town. Zero depth and even some of the starters needed to go on the oline. But only so much you can do day one picks are IMHO for building the foundation of starters day 2-3 picks are fro depth and special teams until they can develop into potential starters.

Does he have a lock on it time will tell, but we all know that outside of 6-8 players of 53, mike certainly did not have it either.

claymore
09-15-2010, 01:35 PM
IF you have to replace 32 Players on you team and most if not all of them are no longer playing in the NFL the DRAFT is not the only place you can fill those holes with. you have to do the math. 7 picks a year is only 14 of those 32.

This team was thread bare at best when Josh came to town. Zero depth and even some of the starters needed to go on the oline. But only so much you can do day one picks are IMHO for building the foundation of starters day 2-3 picks are fro depth and special teams until they can develop into potential starters.

Does he have a lock on it time will tell, but we all know that outside of 6-8 players of 53, mike certainly did not have it either.

For a team without any talent I wish he wouldnt trade future first round picks, and Project 2nd round QB's in the first round.

slim
09-15-2010, 01:38 PM
Well, you can certainly ID some duds we can all agree we are better off without. The problem is I can't readily ID good to great players he has brought in either, at least any under the age of 33. I like Buckhalter a lot, but I think he is nearing the end of the line if he isn't there already. I was a huge Andra Davis fan, but he's now gone. Dawk is terrific, but he's almost as old as Topscribe - speaking of whom, it is fair to say Top has a higher opinion of Kyle Orton than I do (Top likes Kyle better than Kyle's own Mom does, so thats not really a stretch.) Jamal Williams - well, he might have a good/great year or three left, but thats it. I think we are sub-par at WR until Demaryius and/or Decker can start to contribute, not much at RB, not much O-Line anymore unless the rooks step up, and where our defense has strengths it is also old. The TE situation doesn't bear discussion. This looks haphazard to me, not like a cleverly crafted Master plan. So where, then are the actual pieces to turn this thing around?

I don't think you can put an age limit on the discussion.

Just a small sample:
Cutler (good)
Beast (great)
Schef (good)

Dawk (great)
Goodman (good)
Hill (good)

IMO, there is only one great player he has sent packing (and probably only one great player he has brought in, not counting draft picks, 'cause who really knows).

Dreadnought
09-15-2010, 01:42 PM
I don't think you can put an age limit on the discussion.

Just a small sample:
Cutler (good)
Beast (great)
Schef (good)

Dawk (great)
Goodman (good)
Hill (good)

IMO, there is only one great player he has sent packing (and probably only one great player he has brought in, not counting draft picks, 'cause who really knows).


I think thats a pretty good list - I'm higher on Cutler than you, but who really knows, and I rate the Jamal William aquisition pretty well - but age does have to factor into it. Those good aquisitions he made certainly improved what was a piss poor secondary, but if you are rebuilding according to some grand scheme cobbling together 4 very good but very old guys isn't the long term solution

Lonestar
09-15-2010, 01:48 PM
Originally Posted by Thnikkaman View Post
Since we lost the AFC championship game with Shanahan, our team was 24-24 over those 3 seasons. Under McDaniels, we are 8-9.

Seems like par for the course to me. They have a plan. That's great. I want results by the end of next season. Earlier would be nice, but I'm willing to be patient.

once again I will throw out the 32 players that are no longer in the NFL hard to repalce that many players in ONE year while implementing an brad newbies coaching staff and two new schemes maybe even a third with ST which has had flashes of improvement.


interesting thread.

i'm neutral on whether "the plan" is effective or destructive (need results for verification). but two things in this thread jump out at me:

1. there needs to be more time to evaluate the process of mcd and xanders. yes, we all want wins right now, but a few losses does not equal a total failure of principle. example: had new orleans canned sean payton after a few seasons of mediocrity and poor defense they wouldn't have allowed his plan to evolve into a super bowl. now, i must clarify, i'm not predicting mcd will lead the broncos to a super bowl. but we need more time to evaluate his methods.

2. whether everyone admits it or not, there's still the ongoing subtext of mcd vs. shanny. this thread seems to suggest that getting rid of 32 scrubs from shanny's regime hasn't made the team better - or worse. yet, it's always predicated on the notion that somehow the team would be better with shanny's system. yet, i'm not convinced the team would be better with shanny's system and players still in place. in fact, i think the team would be worse. too many divas and not enough beef.


Outstanding post



The impatience of owners wanting instant gratification is what puts good franchises in a hole they have a hard time getting out of. Look at the Redskins for example. Replacing coaches every couple of years have netted them nothing but a decade of mediocre to bad teams.

I just think the Texans, Broncos, Giants, etc. have a better plan of not going for instant gratification and try and build a stable franchise for the long haul. To do that you have to give your coaches 3-4 years time to rebuild the system and have their draft classes start producing.

not to mention the owner snyder falling in love with players EVEN if they do not fit into the schemes.

another great post


Wow, what a tough crowd.


Rome was not built in a day.




Mcd plan just like any plan takes some time to get built. He has had 1 full season and 1 game, and 1 and a half offseasons to get this foundation in place.

It is like building a house, the foundation is there. We all know it (TT,DT,Decker,Moreno, the OL, the dbs)- But just because we have a solid foundation on which to build does not mean that if it rains we wont get wet. So we are going to lose some games until we get the roof put on our foundation. That takes more than 1.5 offseasons and 1 season and 1 game.

In addition to that, we have all these fine pieces that we cant even see yet, because of our HELLISH luck with injuries. If after this season is over and there still seems like there are no signs of improvement and No potential for the next year, then yes, it is time to start the fires. But holy hell- look how long the lions have been crappy, kubes in houston, cincy, the saints, the packers...........All those teams were shit for a long long time, and now they are just starting to make some noise. Why do we have to be the exception and make the noise after 1 year and 1 game?

post of the thread so far.


Because we weren't as bad off as those teams were to begin with. Furthermore, those teams ended up being that way by allowing bad hires to linger too long i.e. Detroit with Millen, Cinci with David Shula and more, etc...

Come on think, 32 players not longer in the NFL 32 out of 53 you just can not justify this statement.

slim
09-15-2010, 02:07 PM
I think thats a pretty good list - I'm higher on Cutler than you, but who really knows, and I rate the Jamal William aquisition pretty well - but age does have to factor into it. Those good aquisitions he made certainly improved what was a piss poor secondary, but if you are rebuilding according to some grand scheme cobbling together 4 very good but very old guys isn't the long term solution

I agree, but they have followed up with DB draft picks. I guess the plan was to use aging vets as stop-gaps until they could replace them with young talent. I would say it is working out pretty well so far (I mean with the defensive backs).

jhildebrand
09-15-2010, 02:14 PM
This team was thread bare at best when Josh came to town. Zero depth and even some of the starters needed to go on the oline. .

Well if you truly believe that then I would think you of all people would expect McD to understand that lesson coming in. I would think you of all people would be upset at McD's frivolous nature with our picks.

rcsodak
09-15-2010, 02:23 PM
I'll give it to the end of the season but losing to Seattle at Mile High would be a big disappointment!!
why? They just destroyed a team that most football people had running away with the NFCW. I wouldnt tag them as a bad team just because of recent history.
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Lonestar
09-15-2010, 02:27 PM
Looks to me like he's gotten rid of MORE good to great players than he's brought since he's started.


Do you really believe that jay was going to like this very disciplined passing scheme. Not to mention that jay expressed his displeasure almost from day one with Josh being hired, for the matter when mike got fired.

as for marshall he is and was a diva and it is in most folks opine just a matter of time before he gets 6-8 weeks off for being marshall.

scheffler hell I do not know what/why he was ignored and same goes for Hillis.

but to say that they were not offset by



4 Colquitt, Britton P 6-3 205 25 2 Tennessee
30 Bruton, David S 6-2 211 23 2 Notre Dame
97 Bannan, Justin DL 6-3 310 31 9 Colorado
32 Cox, Perrish CB 6-0 198 23 R Oklahoma State
20 Dawkins, Brian S 6-0 210 36 15 Clemson
87 Decker, Eric WR 6-3 220 23 R Minnesota
57 Haggan, Mario LB 6-3 267 30 8 Miss State
51 Mays, Joe LB 5-11 246 25 3 N Dakota St
31 McBath, Darcel S 6-1 198 24 2 Texas Tech
98 McBean, Ryan DL 6-5 297 26 3 Oklahoma State
27 Moreno, Knowshon RB 5-11 210 23 2 Georgia
15 Tebow, Tim QB 6-3 245 23 R Florida
88 Thomas, Demaryius WR 6-3 229 22 R Georgia Tech
22 Thompson, Syd'Quan CB 5-9 191 23 R California
41 Vaughn, Cassius CB 5-11 195 22 R Mississippi
99 Vickerson, Kevin DL 6-5 321 27 5 Michigan State
50 Walton, J.D. OL 6-3 305 23 R Baylor
76 Williams, Jamal DL 6-3 348 34 13 Oklahoma State
12 Willis, Matthew WR 6-0 190 26 3 UCLA
25 White, LenDale RB 6-1 235 25 5 USC
Reserve/Not With Team
# Name Pos. Ht. Wt. Age Exp. College
Garland, Ben DL 6-5 275 22 R Air Force


those folks are all upgrades over what we had IMO.

Sorry that you have not yet seen the light be patient and perhaps you will.

claymore
09-15-2010, 02:29 PM
http://www.nataliedee.com/041708/crap-detector.jpg

jhildebrand
09-15-2010, 02:31 PM
Not to mention that jay expressed his displeasure almost from day one with Josh being hired,.

Except for Cutler saying he was excited to meet and work with McD from the probowl. :rolleyes:

honz
09-15-2010, 02:32 PM
http://mylordandmyblog.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/superman.jpg

Lonestar
09-15-2010, 02:35 PM
Well if you truly believe that then I would think you of all people would expect McD to understand that lesson coming in. I would think you of all people would be upset at McD's frivolous nature with our picks.


YET you get past that there were more holes to fill than picks. so FA were a necessary evil.

as for being frivolous with picks lets not go there please I do not want to have to cite other examples of wasted picks EVEN if they were used.

The draft is a crap shoot at best and SO far we are way father ahead of the last admin. IMHO.


BTW I am of the opinion that a team should NEVER EVER use a draft choice to pick a WR especially a day one guy. have been since almost before ashely was taken.

So am I concerned that these two will be an issue YEP but so far I'm impressed. If they prove the law of averages wrong, then praise the lord and pass the ammo.

rcsodak
09-15-2010, 02:36 PM
If we lose at home to Seattle......we are worse than I thought....opening the season with a loss to the Jags and Seahawks would really be a disappointment.....and looking at our next 4 games.....we could be looking at an 0-6 start.....now.....hopfully we come out and play well and get a good convincing win....then the next 4 games would not seem as bad.......I am just saying if we don't play well.....it could get ugly the next few games.....looking at the schedule.
This reminds me back when people were calling for shannys head, and the rather large number of posters who said they'd "gladly' live thru losses and lean times in the win column. I LOL'd at them then and I'm :tsk: at them now. They know who they are. :coffee: Hypocrisy run amok.
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Lonestar
09-15-2010, 02:37 PM
Except for Cutler saying he was excited to meet and work with McD from the probowl. :rolleyes:


well as we all know talk is cheap.

What did you expect him to say? I think that is a wildly used comment on here.

Lonestar
09-15-2010, 02:38 PM
why? They just destroyed a team that most football people had running away with the NFCW. I wouldnt tag them as a bad team just because of recent history.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

I'm thinking after seeing that game that SEA just may be the team to beat this year out west.

claymore
09-15-2010, 02:40 PM
I'm thinking after seeing that game that SEA just may be the team to beat this year out west.

Holy effin Crap. :laugh:

Bill Devaroe
09-15-2010, 02:41 PM
I personally like the direction that we are headed, it is time to fish or cut bait with these jackaninnys.
Alphonso Smith was horrible, Jarvis green sucks. Bye Bye. In my opinion Champ and Dawk are over the hill too. I would be trying to trade them while they have any value and get a QB in here that can actually play. Champ for David Garrard, you heard it here first. THat guy kills us everey year, and would love to see him in a bronco uni.

Northman
09-15-2010, 03:03 PM
I'm thinking after seeing that game that SEA just may be the team to beat this year out west.

Im not sure if thats a blessing or not. If Carroll comes in with his first season and makes the playoffs what will that say about McD? Especially when that team went 5-11 the year before.

I Eat Staples
09-15-2010, 03:18 PM
And we arent any better.

Yeah, if they have a plan, then it hasn't worked so far.


Or worse.

Troll.

That's subjective. I think we're considerably worse. I'd rather be 8-8 with some young stars than 8-8 with a low ceiling.

I hardly consider making bold, and in my opinion stupid, decisions a plan.

I Eat Staples
09-15-2010, 03:19 PM
I personally like the direction that we are headed, it is time to fish or cut bait with these jackaninnys.
Alphonso Smith was horrible, Jarvis green sucks. Bye Bye. In my opinion Champ and Dawk are over the hill too. I would be trying to trade them while they have any value and get a QB in here that can actually play. Champ for David Garrard, you heard it here first. THat guy kills us everey year, and would love to see him in a bronco uni.

No thanks...I'd rather have Champ play QB...

turftoad
09-15-2010, 03:19 PM
Except for Cutler saying he was excited to meet and work with McD from the probowl. :rolleyes:

Wait a minute. Jay was a Pro bowler?? Did we replace him with one. Did we replace Marshall (a pro bowler) with a pro bowler??

No and no. So........... he really hasn't upgraded the talent of the team.

atwater27
09-15-2010, 03:22 PM
XANDERS: Theres a Plan in Place

Broncos GM Xanders confident a smart game plan is in place to revitalize roster


In other news, The Raiders are confident that their plan to win this year will succeed. 30 other teams have also been contacted regarding their respective 2010 season outlook and strangely all have said the same thing. Looks like we will have to manufacture alot more Lombardi trophies this year folks!

Dreadnought
09-15-2010, 03:27 PM
In other news, The Raiders are confident that their plan to win this year will succeed.

"Dear Leader Kim Jong-Il confidently predicts that heroic efforts of the proletariat laborer in newest 5 year agricultural plan will once again yield bountiful harvests of rice to feed happy families of the workers paradise..."

Funny thing about plans is they don't always pan out

claymore
09-15-2010, 03:29 PM
"Dear Leader Kim Jong-Il confidently predicts that heroic efforts of the proletariat laborer in newest 5 year agricultural plan will once again yield bountiful harvests of rice to feed happy families of the workers paradise..."

Funny thing about plans is they don't always pan out

Hahaha

Bosco
09-15-2010, 03:29 PM
At nine losses in eleven regular season (and hopefully not counting) I think a reasonable person might be forgiven for thinking that whatever plan has been assembled is frankly a pretty dumb one. They better turn this thing around, like, yesterday. I think we have made a number of solid defensive roster moves, but the overall net looks pretty bad right about now.

You're ready to make that ruling after a single game where we lost by only a touchdown?

It's absolutely shocking that you people aren't holding jobs in the NFL.


Xanders and Mcd are clueless when it comes to building a running game. That will be the death of them both. Their bad decsions are compounding, Bowlen made a mistake with hiring both of them. Really? The Patriots running game was more generally more productive than the Broncos in 2006, 2007 and 2008.

Not that it matters much anymore. This is a passing league these days.

Northman
09-15-2010, 03:33 PM
You're ready to make that ruling after a single game where we lost by only a touchdown?



I think it has more to do with the continuation of mental mistakes, lack of a true running threat, and continued losses. Whether or not people hold a job in the NFL has really nothing to do with sharing an opinion about this team man. Come on now.

I Eat Staples
09-15-2010, 03:35 PM
It's absolutely shocking that you people aren't holding jobs in the NFL.

I know man, if McD currently holds a job in the NFL, so should everyone on this board. They're at the very worst equally qualified.

claymore
09-15-2010, 03:37 PM
I know man, if McD currently holds a job in the NFL, so should everyone on this board. They're at the very worst equally qualified.

All kidding aside we are at least as qualified as Ben McDaniels.

atwater27
09-15-2010, 03:37 PM
It's absolutely shocking that you people aren't holding jobs in the NFL. Guess we lost our chance boys... We've been foiled by a talent scout hidden in the forums...

Not that it matters much anymore. This is a passing league these days.

Really? Tell that to Arian Foster, Chris Johnson, Adrian Petersen, Jamaal Charles, Rashard Mendenhall, Michael Turner, MJD, and all their friends and respective teams. :coffee:

Dreadnought
09-15-2010, 03:39 PM
You're ready to make that ruling after a single game where we lost by only a touchdown?

It's absolutely shocking that you people aren't holding jobs in the NFL.

Really? The Patriots running game was more generally more productive than the Broncos in 2006, 2007 and 2008.

Not that it matters much anymore. This is a passing league these days.

You managed to not only totally misread my post, but then insulted me as well. Nice two-fer. Try rereading the quote of mine you included in your post and try again.

slim
09-15-2010, 03:40 PM
All kidding aside we are at least as qualified as Ben McDaniels.

Child, please.

claymore
09-15-2010, 03:44 PM
Child, please.

Youve seen that guys resume right??


Before joining the Broncos, McDaniels spent three years coaching high school football in Ohio. He instructed quarterbacks at Massillon Jackson High School (Massillon, Ohio) in 2008 after a two-year stint coaching that position at Canton McKinley Senior High School (Canton, Ohio) from 2006-07.

He began his coaching career in 2003 as a wide receivers coach at Warren Harding High School (Warren, Ohio) before coaching as a graduate assistant at Minnesota for two years from 2004-05.

McDaniels worked for the University of Minnesota as a graduate assistant under Head Coach Glen Mason from 2004-05. The Golden Gophers posted a 7-5 record and earned a berth in the Music City Bowl during each of those two seasons with McDaniels working with the wide receivers in 2004 and the defensive backs in 2005.

While at Minnesota in 2005, McDaniels was part of its team that recaptured the “Little Brown Jug” with a victory over the University of Michigan. The last-second road win marked the Golden Gophers’ first victory against Michigan since 1986 in one of college football’s oldest rivalries.



Granted, I didnt know he was a part of the Golden Gophers team that re-captured the “Little Brown Jug”. But, seriously.

slim
09-15-2010, 03:46 PM
Youve seen that guys resume right??



Granted, I didnt know he was a part of the Golden Gophers team that re-captured the “Little Brown Jug”. But, seriously.

Right, now show us your resume so we can compare.

Softskull
09-15-2010, 03:48 PM
Really? The Patriots running game was more generally more productive than the Broncos in 2006, 2007 and 2008.


Actually, during none of those years were the pats "generally more productive" in the running game

Pats yards per carry respectively
3.9 - 4.1 - 4.4

Broncos for the same timeframe
4.4 - 4.6 - 4.8

claymore
09-15-2010, 03:49 PM
Right, now show us your resume so we can compare.

THats unreasonable.

You would hire this guy to coach your first round draft pick QB?

slim
09-15-2010, 03:50 PM
THats unreasonable.

You would hire this guy to coach your first round draft pick QB?

You are the one that said everyone here is as qualified as Ben, but I am unreasonable?

Nomad
09-15-2010, 03:53 PM
You are the one that said everyone here is as qualified as Ben, but I am unreasonable?

I only know of two guys here who has/is a coach in high school... triple and Dean! We can send their resumes in!!:D

claymore
09-15-2010, 03:54 PM
You are the one that said everyone here is as qualified as Ben, but I am unreasonable?

I was being facetious. The point being there are far more qualified candidates out there.

Nomad
09-15-2010, 03:55 PM
I was being facetious. The point being there are far more qualified candidates out there.

We know! Don't be so defensive!!:lol:

claymore
09-15-2010, 03:57 PM
We know! Don't be so defensive!!:lol:

Slim had me in a corner. I felt like he was going to take this thread to the black hole if you know what I mean.

Northman
09-15-2010, 03:58 PM
Slim had me in a corner. I felt like he was going to take this thread to the black hole if you know what I mean.

Are you saying he was throwing his weight around? :lol:

I Eat Staples
09-15-2010, 03:59 PM
You are the one that said everyone here is as qualified as Ben, but I am unreasonable?

Neither a poster from this board nor Ben McDaniels are qualified to coach in the NFL. Does it matter who is closer to being qualified? If you lost by 1 point, or you lost by 30 points, you lose either way. Nothing special happens to you because you were closer to winning. Ben McDaniels won't be a better coach than someone from this board simply because neither him nor them could coach in the NFL at all.

atwater27
09-15-2010, 04:04 PM
Youve seen that guys resume right??



Granted, I didnt know he was a part of the Golden Gophers team that re-captured the “Little Brown Jug”. But, seriously.

http://image.cdnl3.xosnetwork.com/pics10/400/BL/BLHUPUABPPURXSD.20090527184636.jpg

That M right thar stands for McDaniels, bitch!

Nomad
09-15-2010, 04:06 PM
You are the one that said everyone here is as qualified as Ben, but I am unreasonable?

Does playing Madden or being a fantasy football owner count? I do neither so I'm not in the pool of candidates!!

Gimpygod
09-15-2010, 04:24 PM
Well I would sure like to know what that plan is?

From my vantage point it is undervaluing draft picks and overvaluing NE castoffs and other FA's.

I would much rather see us keep our picks, use them, and play the youth!

Reves did the same with Dallas castoffs

slim
09-15-2010, 04:25 PM
Slim had me in a corner. I felt like he was going to take this thread to the black hole if you know what I mean.

:beastmode:

Ziggy
09-15-2010, 04:42 PM
The FO has made some mistakes to be sure, but judging the last 2 years draft picks right now is ridiculous. People want to start bashing the Tebow pick already. Anyone want to go back pull up Aaron Rodgers, Steve Young, and Brett Favres stats over thier first 3 years each combined? Draft picks take time. Especially at QB.

We can qualify the the trade and subsequent pick for Alphonso Smith a monumental mistake. Other than that, it's too early to tell on the rest. While Knowshon has done little to impress me, I'll give him the rest of this season to see how he pans out. Rookie RB's taken high in the first round should make big impact by the end of year 2. Let's see how Knowshon looks the rest of this season.

I like most of the young depth here overall. JD Walton in the 3rd looks like an absolute steal already. The young talent in the secondary looks great to me, but thier not going to be able to show much behind an outstanding veteran secondary. They should start making big contributions next season. Overall, I like what's going on, but when you have to gut a team like this FO did, you're not going to rebuild overnight.

I love how this forum waxes and wanes with every victory and loss. It's fairly normal for a sports forum I guess, but the drama is hilarious. This team lost to a Florida team in September? So did Elway and the boys. If this team loses the home opener to a team like Seattle, I'll have some major concerns but I'm not ready to throw in the towel over an opening loss on the road.

Is the plan working? Ask me in 2 years. Expecting to turn around an NFL team with holes nearly everywhere in just over a year is silly at best.

Gimpygod
09-15-2010, 05:03 PM
I cannot believe how terribly patient Bowlen was with Shanahan. People are starting to bite McDaniels head off (and I'm going to join them if we don't start winning in the next couple weeks), and he hasn't even been here 1/3 of Shanahan's stretch.

If McDaniels doesn't cut, the next coach to come in will have likely a year to turn things around before the fanbase gets impatient with him too. And the worse thing about that is we'll be stuck with a QB in Tim Tebow that he likely will not want as his starter.

Shanahan went 138-86 in his tenure as Broncos headcoach, won 2 superbowls and played in 4 AFC championships, produced 1000 yard rushers than any other team during those years...yes Bowlen's patience is a puzzle :confused:

Bowlen is like Mother Teresa on roofies that's how patient he is

p.s. McD is 8-9

T.K.O.
09-15-2010, 05:32 PM
i hope the "plan" includes more wins than losses!:elefant:

Slick
09-15-2010, 05:53 PM
The lifestyles of the instantly gratified...

slim
09-15-2010, 06:04 PM
The lifestyles of the instantly gratified...

It's like on prom night.

It is all about my needs.

BeefStew25
09-15-2010, 06:17 PM
not enough beef.

Thank you sir.

Lonestar
09-15-2010, 06:33 PM
Wait a minute. Jay was a Pro bowler?? Did we replace him with one. Did we replace Marshall (a pro bowler) with a pro bowler??

No and no. So........... he really hasn't upgraded the talent of the team.

Marshall was not in the conversations but jay was and IIRC he was a pro bowler that went because they did not hold the election a few weeks later and when everyone thought that rivers was far superior to him.

Had he been a top 3 QB then well


Passing (Qualified* | All) Rk Player Team Pos Comp Att Pct Att/G Yds Avg Yds/G TD Int 1st 1st% Lng 20+ 40+ Sck Rate
1 Philip Rivers SD QB 312 478 65.3 29.9 4,009 8.4 250.6 34 11 191 40.0 67 48 12 25 105.5
2 Chad Pennington MIA QB 321 476 67.4 29.8 3,653 7.7 228.3 19 7 180 37.8 80T 38 8 24 97.4
3 Peyton Manning IND QB 371 555 66.8 34.7 4,002 7.2 250.1 27 12 210 37.8 75 40 7 14 95.0
4 Matt Schaub HOU QB 251 380 66.1 34.5 3,043 8.0 276.6 15 10 146 38.4 65 42 8 23 92.7
5 Matt Cassel NE QB 327 516 63.4 32.2 3,693 7.2 230.8 21 11 182 35.3 76T 37 6 47 89.4
6 Jay Cutler DEN QB 384 616 62.3 38.5 4,526 7.3 282.9 25 18 222 36.0 93T 55 7 11 86.0

he got voted in early before his meltdown.

HORSEPOWER 56
09-15-2010, 06:39 PM
I hope the plan includes winning football games. No plan ever survives first contact with the enemy as we saw on Sunday.

Bosco
09-15-2010, 07:34 PM
Really? Tell that to Arian Foster, Chris Johnson, Adrian Petersen, Jamaal Charles, Rashard Mendenhall, Michael Turner, MJD, and all their friends and respective teams. :coffee:

And how many of those teams are successful? Only Peterson's team even made the playoffs and his performance was down significantly from 2008. Hell, of the top 10 rushing teams from 2009, only half of them actually made the playoffs. Comparatively, 8 of the top 10 passing teams made the playoffs.


Actually, during none of those years were the pats "generally more productive" in the running game

Pats yards per carry respectively
3.9 - 4.1 - 4.4

Broncos for the same timeframe
4.4 - 4.6 - 4.8 You're only pulling one statistic though. If you'd included touchdowns (Patriots had more every year from 06-08) attempts, and yards, you'd see that the Patriots typically got more out of their running game, even at a half yard less per carry than the Broncos.

jhildebrand
09-15-2010, 09:03 PM
The "Shanahan never did anything without Elway" gets over used here yet we are supposed to look at NE castoffs that make their way here as though they were great in a vacuum as if NE doesn't have a HOF QB and a HOF WR that elevate those around them including the coach.

Just sayin.

atwater27
09-15-2010, 09:14 PM
The "Shanahan never did anything without Elway" gets over used here yet we are supposed to look at NE castoffs that make their way here as though they were great in a vacuum as if NE doesn't have a HOF QB and a HOF WR.

Just sayin.

and a shit load of pro bowlers in the trenches and on defense.

jhildebrand
09-15-2010, 09:14 PM
Hou has always been 8-8- just like us. The packers were right around that mark too. Same with the jets. (the most overrated team ever) All teams right or near our record.

Well....Houston was a franchise team and even then many argued Dom Capers was a terrible choice for HC. Again, they held onto him too long.

As for GB, I think you might be wrong. Look at their records since the SB years! Rhoades went 8-8 and he was gone. Sherman went 12-4 twice, 10-6 twice, and then 4-12. Do you think they held onto him after his 4-12 season? :confused: NOPE!

McCarthy then went 8-8 (must be the ol new coaches new system new scheme thing :D) which he followed up with 13-3, 6-10 and 11-5.

The Jets-I agree with you completely.

The point I have tried to make through all of this is teams are built through the draft not FA. The team's that suffer through a decade of futility are those that either try to build through FA or miss on their picks.

jhildebrand
09-15-2010, 09:22 PM
Reves did the same with Dallas castoffs

So did Kubiak with Houston, Shanahan with Washington, and the list goes on. The difference is they either quit going to the well or they hit on multiple picks early.

jhildebrand
09-15-2010, 09:23 PM
and a shit load of pro bowlers in the trenches and on defense.

Right. Vince Wilfork is a joke. Richard Seymour was overrated. Bruschi and McGinnest were nobodies. ;)

atwater27
09-15-2010, 09:29 PM
Right. Vince Wilfork is a joke. Richard Seymour was overrated. Bruschi and McGinnest were nobodies. ;)

Didn't they have Ty Law and Lawyer Milloy too for a few championships?

Lonestar
09-15-2010, 09:31 PM
Well....Houston was a franchise team and even then many argued Dom Capers was a terrible choice for HC. Again, they held onto him too long.

As for GB, I think you might be wrong. Look at their records since the SB years! Rhoades went 8-8 and he was gone. Sherman went 12-4 twice, 10-6 twice, and then 4-12. Do you think they held onto him after his 4-12 season? :confused: NOPE!

McCarthy then went 8-8 (must be the ol new coaches new system new scheme thing :D) which he followed up with 13-3, 6-10 and 11-5.

The Jets-I agree with you completely.

The point I have tried to make through all of this is teams are built through the draft not FA. The team's that suffer through a decade of futility are those that either try to build through FA or miss on their picks.


which completely baffles me as to why your ragging on Josh he HAD to replace 30 odd guys in ONE year all of which are not in the NFL any longer.

There has to be a base to build on and getting FA in to hold the fort while the youngins grow up and learn the trade is an absolute necessity.

The old folks were never thought as replacements but as care takers. till the kiddies are ready.

without any trades we get 7 picks a year. 4 of which are tc fodder or ST at best that means in any one year in the CRAP shoot we call the draft we should get 3 players that can start down the road. Anything past pick 3 is almost pure luck.

SO at that number you have to get 3 players a year that can start down the road and everyone knows that does not happen day one. and they also know that few teams hit that mark every year.


So your angry because JOSH took a CB last year in the second that YOU did not think highly of and that player cost us a #1 this year.

I thought at the time that it was a good move because he would have a full years worth of experience when the draft rolled around again.

BOO ******* HOO he was a bust at least in DEN. it is not like we have hit a home run on all number choices the past 50 years have we.

Just tell us what it going to make YOU happy.

Bosco
09-15-2010, 09:37 PM
The "Shanahan never did anything without Elway" gets over used here yet we are supposed to look at NE castoffs that make their way here as though they were great in a vacuum as if NE doesn't have a HOF QB and a HOF WR.

Just sayin.

How many of the New England "castoffs" have brought here to be serious contributors?

LaMont Jordan? Nope.
Hochstein? Sorta. Was used more than we wanted because of Hamilton's ineffective play.
Gaffney? Definitely.
LeKevin Smith? Not really.
Maroney? Yes.
Jarvis Green? Yes, but he didn't get it done so we cut him.
Ty Law? Mid-season injury replacement who we didn't bring back.

See, overall most of these guys were nothing more than role and depth players. It's not like Josh is trying to build a team with these guys as core players.

jhildebrand
09-15-2010, 09:42 PM
YET you get past that there were more holes to fill than picks.

And McDaniels knew those holes coming in and STILL Created more holes than were probably necessary i.e. Mike Leach then filling it with Paxton.



so FA were a necessary evil.

Which he made even more so by giving away a first for Alphonso. Reaching for Quinn the way he did. The frivilous nature with those picks only required the team to be even more dependent on FA.



as for being frivolous with picks lets not go there please I do not want to have to cite other examples of wasted picks EVEN if they were used.

When you give away the picks he did for Quinn there is nothing to call it but frivolous. Then when you look at the picture as a whole i.e. the additional picks given away for Phons, Tebow, Maroney etc... it becomes a pattern.



The draft is a crap shoot at best and SO far we are way father ahead of the last admin. IMHO.

Well if you want to compare apples to apples why not judge Shanahan's first two drafts and FA classes to McD's first two. I think it will paint a different picture. There is an obvious fallacy trying to compare 13 seasons to 2.



BTW I am of the opinion that a team should NEVER EVER use a draft choice to pick a WR especially a day one guy. have been since almost before ashely was taken.

I don't care for WR's or RB's in the first unless you are looking at Fitzgerald or AP. That's why I never liked the Moreno pick. Shonn Greene was there in the 3rd! GB took Jennings with our pick from the Javon trade. Still care to tell me later round picks are worthless and FA is the way to go? :confused: Who would you rather have a rusted out and rented Javon Walker or Greg Jennings?

jhildebrand
09-15-2010, 09:46 PM
How many of the New England "castoffs" have brought here to be serious contributors?

LaMont Jordan? Nope.
Hochstein? Sorta. Was used more than we wanted because of Hamilton's ineffective play.
Gaffney? Definitely.
LeKevin Smith? Not really.
Maroney? Yes.
Jarvis Green? Yes, but he didn't get it done so we cut him.
Ty Law? Mid-season injury replacement who we didn't bring back.

See, overall most of these guys were nothing more than role and depth players. It's not like Josh is trying to build a team with these guys as core players.

Come on Bosco! Let's be honest. When LeKevin was brought in we were all told how he was such a huge upgrade. The guy was/is John Engleberger lite.

Hochstein was sold as a guy who would make Hamilton look silly. Didn't happen.

Jarvis Green. We were told this was a coup and a great signing. It was a great signing....for Green.

I never complained about Ty Law. I didn't like Jack MF Williams. LaMont was Lamont and even then he had no business carrying the ball as much as he did over Hillis.

So it is easy to say what you have after the fact but there were plenty here AT THE TIME promising these guys would be upgrades. I am too lazy to look up the posts but we know they are there.

I think that is why I am going after this as hard as I am. Because I can see and hear the excuses people will be making for the player and McD later despite us bringing them up now.

jhildebrand
09-15-2010, 09:56 PM
which completely baffles me as to why your ragging on Josh he HAD to replace 30 odd guys in ONE year all of which are not in the NFL any longer.

Who MADE McD replace 39 of 53 starters in year one? :confused:

Had is the word you used. Please support your argument.



There has to be a base to build on and getting FA in to hold the fort while the youngins grow up and learn the trade is an absolute necessity.

And that base is THE DRAFT. When you trade that base away you are forced into FA. The saying "build through the draft and supplement through FA" is as relevant today as it was 30 years ago!



The old folks were never thought as replacements but as care takers. till the kiddies are ready.

Really? So why then is Carlton Powell gone over a guy like Bannan and Green? Andre Brown is gone for an older Maroney. Jamal Williams over Marcus Thomas or drafting someone there?

The reality of today's NFL is youth. That is one thing I never liked about Shanahan. He clung to the "Groom" draftees for 3 seasons BS as teams past us by forcing their picks, especially first day picks, to produce immediately.



without any trades we get 7 picks a year. 4 of which are tc fodder or ST at best that means in any one year in the CRAP shoot we call the draft we should get 3 players that can start down the road. Anything past pick 3 is almost pure luck. Tell that to teams like the Steelers who hit on pick after pick! Or the Giants. Or Green Bay.

7 players is more than half of one unit. That is plenty to restock one half of Offense or Defense in ONE DRAFT!



So your angry because mike took a CB last year in the second that YOU did not think highly of and that player cost us a #1 this year.

McD took him, not Mike. You can't not bring up mike's name :lol: Did that guy kick your dog????

When you trade Earl Thomas for Dan Gronkowski and other cut players you deserve EVERY BIT OF HEAT even more so when you acknowledged your own shortcoming PRIOR TO THE DRAFT!


Just tell us what it going to make YOU happy.

Either keep the picks or be damn certain that the NE castoff or other vet you are bringing in is more than a short term rental! '

If it doesn't happen, this team will be staring at 10 years (total) without the playoffs because the team will not only be devoid of talent, but there wont be any draft picks to use, and FA's wont want to be here without being MASSIVELY overpaid.

Bosco
09-15-2010, 10:05 PM
Come on Bosco! Let's be honest. When LeKevin was brought in we were all told how he was such a huge upgrade. The guy was/is John Engleberger lite. I'm not really interested in what the fans said. You can be sure though, that both Josh and Belichick knew exactly what LeKevin was capable of when they drafted him.


Hochstein was sold as a guy who would make Hamilton look silly. Didn't happen. He did take Hamilton's job from him, didn't he?


Jarvis Green. We were told this was a coup and a great signing. It was a great signing....for Green. Yeah, this one didn't work out. It happens.


LaMont was Lamont and even then he had no business carrying the ball as much as he did over Hillis. The only reason that happened is because LaMont knew where to line up so we weren't blowing time outs all the time.


So it is easy to say what you have after the fact but there were plenty here AT THE TIME promising these guys would be upgrades. I am too lazy to look up the posts but we know they are there.

I think that is why I am going after this as hard as I am. Because I can see and hear the excuses people will be making for the player and McD later despite us bringing them up now. Again, so what? You want to hold McD and company accountable because the guys they acquired to be depth players weren't the super stars some fans made them out to be?

Lonestar
09-15-2010, 10:08 PM
And McDaniels knew those holes coming in and STILL Created more holes than were probably necessary i.e. Mike Leach then filling it with Paxton.



Which he made even more so by giving away a first for Alphonso. Reaching for Quinn the way he did. The frivilous nature with those picks only required the team to be even more dependent on FA.



When you give away the picks he did for Quinn there is nothing to call it but frivolous. Then when you look at the picture as a whole i.e. the additional picks given away for Phons, Tebow, Maroney etc... it becomes a pattern.



Well if you want to compare apples to apples why not judge Shanahan's first two drafts and FA classes to McD's first two. I think it will paint a different picture. There is an obvious fallacy trying to compare 13 seasons to 2.



I don't care for WR's or RB's in the first unless you are looking at Fitzgerald or AP. That's why I never liked the Moreno pick. Shonn Greene was there in the 3rd! GB took Jennings with our pick from the Javon trade. Still care to tell me later round picks are worthless and FA is the way to go? :confused: Who would you rather have a rusted out and rented Javon Walker or Greg Jennings?

paxton leach a wash if not upgrade if you talk to the punter.

last years draft choices WTHF cares it is water under the bridge ans for all you know quinn come become a beast this year. he will never be a pass catching TE for production sake. But will get a few hear and there.

the only reason he had picks to give up for Tebow was because he created them. if it had been anyone else we would have taken players at 12 and had a fifty fifty chance of a dud such is the nature of the beast..

HAD he used those other choices on players and kept them all some one would have been whining about having all of these rookies playing. the guy can't win for losing.no matter what he does someone here is going to bitch.

As for RB in the first overall I'm not a big guy there either, and moreno probably would not have been my pick but lots of folks loved it and it is water under the bridge.

Time to move on my friend as all your going to do is have a stroke over it and it is not worth that. :salute:

jhildebrand
09-15-2010, 10:12 PM
I'm not really interested in what the fans said. You can be sure though, that both Josh and Belichick knew exactly what LeKevin was capable of when they drafted him.

Well you were one of the one's touting the moves around here and how good they would be yet now you are no longer concerned about what fans say. That's rich.

Where is LeKevin these days? :confused:

:lol:



He did take Hamilton's job from him, didn't he?

I wouldn't say he took it from him. He certainly didn't outperform him during his time or he wouldn't be behind a rookies



Yeah, this one didn't work out. It happens.

The honesty is appreciated.



The only reason that happened is because LaMont knew where to line up so we weren't blowing time outs all the time.

I don't buy that business completely but I don't care to see this turn into yet another Hillis thread. God knows we've had enough.



Again, so what? You want to hold McD and company accountable because the guys they acquired to be depth players weren't the super stars some fans made them out to be?

He should be held accountable anyway if for no other reason than he is the coach. He should be held accountable as the previous regime was 'held accountable' on these very forums for similar failures. He should be held accountable when picks are given up for players that amount to rent-a-player for a season and then the team is left holding a cap hit and no pick or both!

Lonestar
09-15-2010, 10:17 PM
Well you were one of the one's touting the moves around here and how good they would be yet now you are no longer concerned about what fans say. That's rich.

Where is LeKevin these days? :confused:

:lol:



I wouldn't say he took it from him. He certainly didn't outperform him during his time or he wouldn't be behind a rookies



The honesty is appreciated.



I don't buy that business completely but I don't care to see this turn into yet another Hillis thread. God knows we've had enough.



He should be held accountable anyway if for no other reason than he is the coach. He should be held accountable as the previous regime was 'held accountable' on these very forums for similar failures. He should be held accountable when picks are given up for players that amount to rent-a-player for a season and then the team is left holding a cap hit and no pick or both!

but wht you forget is those other players were not bit players for mike they were his main players and they failed these guys were not brought in to be starters but bit players that is where you are not right.


time to chill out it will be a long season if you are going baliistic each game. it is a GAME afterall.

jhildebrand
09-15-2010, 10:22 PM
paxton leach a wash if not upgrade if you talk to the punter.

last years draft choices WTHF cares it is water under the bridge ans for all you know quinn come become a beast this year. he will never be a pass catching TE for production sake. But will get a few hear and there.

the only reason he had picks to give up for Tebow was because he created them. if it had been anyone else we would have taken players at 12 and had a fifty fifty chance of a dud such is the nature of the beast..

HAD he used those other choices on players and kept them all some one would have been whining about having all of these rookies playing. the guy can't win for losing.no matter what he does someone here is going to bitch.

As for RB in the first overall I'm not a big guy there either, and moreno probably would not have been my pick but lots of folks loved it and it is water under the bridge.

Time to move on my friend as all your going to do is have a stroke over it and it is not worth that. :salute:

You're a walking double standard :lol:

I'll go through this post for, as Arapaho calls it: Shits and Giggles. Strap it on, here we go!


paxton leach a wash if not upgrade if you talk to the punter.

Britton Colquitt is going to tell me about Leach when Colquitt wasn't even here :confused: FUNNY! But thanks! That brings me to another point. McD created a hole by booting (punn intended) Kern.

This team suffered over that move, with a 6-0 record mind you, while they flailed trying to replace Kern. S-A-D.



last years draft choices WTHF cares it is water under the bridge

So now it is no big deal to give away Earl Thomas for Dan Gronkowski :confused: Yet when "Mikey" busted on a player his head was due on a platter. Double standard much?



ans for all you know quinn come become a beast this year. he will never be a pass catching TE for production sake. But will get a few hear and there.

You did see Quinn get his ASS reamed for F-ing up in J'ville right. The guy is looking worse and worse. If his name were Hillis or Scheffler we should be told right about now how stupid he is and not expect to see him for the rest of the season!!!!!



the only reason he had picks to give up for Tebow was because he created them. if it had been anyone else we would have taken players at 12 and had a fifty fifty chance of a dud such is the nature of the beast..


Imagine what he could do with even more picks. Imagine if he had that #14 pick this year. That would be that many more picks this team could have worked with. No worries though, we have Dan Gronkowski!



HAD he used those other choices on players and kept them all some one would have been whining about having all of these rookies playing. the guy can't win for losing.no matter what he does someone here is going to bitch.

Look at my sig. I wouldn't mind a youth movement AT ALL. I would be fine trading Champ and getting something for him while he is worth something. I am ok with a bad record as long as it was clear this team is headed in the right direction.

At some point, this team will be forced to do what KC did. It is inevitable.



As for RB in the first overall I'm not a big guy there either, and moreno probably would not have been my pick but lots of folks loved it and it is water under the bridge.

Of course it is....for you! However, with guys like Orakpo sitting there, Maualuga sitting there, Shonn Green sitting there, then it isn't.

When Matthews way outperforms Moreno we wont worry because it is water under the bridge.

Bosco
09-15-2010, 10:25 PM
Well you were one of the one's touting the moves around here and how good they would be yet now you are no longer concerned about what fans say. That's rich.

Where is LeKevin these days? :confused:

:lol: And where have I been wrong? Sure I missed the Jarvis Green call, but from day one I was telling people he was going to be a rotational pass rusher behind McBean. Turns out that not only did he not perform to standards, but a much younger player (Marcus Thomas) stepped up and took his job from him.

Overall, I'd say my projections to date stack up pretty favorably to just about anyone on this forum.


I wouldn't say he took it from him. He certainly didn't outperform him during his time or he wouldn't be behind a rookies Hochstein was a pretty clear upgrade from Hamilton, but that's like going from a broken down 1988 Taurus to late 90's F-150. Even with it being an upgrade, you're still pretty average and Josh knew that wasn't good enough so we spent a 2nd rounder on a guy who can take over that spot.


He should be held accountable anyway if for no other reason than he is the coach. He should be held accountable as the previous regime was 'held accountable' on these very forums for similar failures. He should be held accountable when picks are given up for players that amount to rent-a-player for a season and then the team is left holding a cap hit and no pick or both! Perfectly fine, but lets hold them accountable according to realistic situations, not what highly emotional fans say.

Softskull
09-15-2010, 10:33 PM
You're only pulling one statistic though. If you'd included touchdowns (Patriots had more every year from 06-08) attempts, and yards, you'd see that the Patriots typically got more out of their running game, even at a half yard less per carry than the Broncos.

Pats did have more TDs per year. But they also had a supercharged passing game which makes running generally much harder to defend. The TD stat just shows that the Pats got to the endzone more frequently in general. They had the better offense at the time. No one confused Plummer for Brady.

Just so your'e clear, the stat I "pulled", yards per carry is just a function of "attempt, and yards" as you put it. The Pats got to the endzone more frequently than the Broncos. Averaging 0.5 yards per carry less than the Broncs every year is not a strong arguement for a superior rushing game

Lonestar
09-15-2010, 10:40 PM
You're a walking double standard :lol:

I'll go through this post for, as Arapaho calls it: Shits and Giggles. Strap it on, here we go!



Britton Colquitt is going to tell me about Leach when Colquitt wasn't even here :confused: FUNNY! But thanks! That brings me to another point. McD created a hole by booting (punn intended) Kern.

This team suffered over that move, with a 6-0 record mind you, while they flailed trying to replace Kern. S-A-D.



So now it is no big deal to give away Earl Thomas for Dan Gronkowski :confused: Yet when "Mikey" busted on a player his head was due on a platter. Double standard much?



You did see Quinn get his ASS reamed for F-ing up in J'ville right. The guy is looking worse and worse. If his name were Hillis or Scheffler we should be told right about now how stupid he is and not expect to see him for the rest of the season!!!!!



Imagine what he could do with even more picks. Imagine if he had that #14 pick this year. That would be that many more picks this team could have worked with. No worries though, we have Dan Gronkowski!



Look at my sig. I wouldn't mind a youth movement AT ALL. I would be fine trading Champ and getting something for him while he is worth something. I am ok with a bad record as long as it was clear this team is headed in the right direction.

At some point, this team will be forced to do what KC did. It is inevitable.



Of course it is....for you! However, with guys like Orakpo sitting there, Maualuga sitting there, Shonn Green sitting there, then it isn't.

When Matthews way outperforms Moreno we wont worry because it is water under the bridge.

was not talking about the current punter who ever it was when leach moved on made the comment that Paxton came to him and asked him exactly where he liked to receive the ball and then did so every time. exactly where he asked for it. Hey I was a HUGE leach fan on mania I was sticking up for him all the time it was "cut time"

I saw him down field making tackles on coverage and or being right there when they did.

poiss an moan all you want about who we could have had and then I can bring up all the fubars that we have had in the past and I have them documented from years past. Shit happens and then you move on.

Would I have rather had other players absolutely this was my choice in 06


Haloti Ngata | #92 | DE

Baltimore Ravens | Official Team Site

Height: 6-4 Weight: 350 Age: 26

Born: 1/21/1984 Inglewood , CA

College: Oregon

Experience: 5th season

High School: Highland HS [Salt Lake City, UT] and barring him


14 Brodrick Bunkley DT Florida State Philadelphia Eagles

and

20 Tamba Hali DE Penn State Kansas City Chiefs

I really liked Bunkley at the time.


I also really liked Hillis but it was not to be.

but lets not go there OK.

We have what we have and it is time to move on..

Lonestar
09-15-2010, 10:42 PM
will be back later I hear the DVR calling.

Elevation inc
09-16-2010, 02:30 AM
Well you were one of the one's touting the moves around here and how good they would be yet now you are no longer concerned about what fans say. That's rich.

Where is LeKevin these days? :confused:

:lol:



I wouldn't say he took it from him. He certainly didn't outperform him during his time or he wouldn't be behind a rookies



The honesty is appreciated.



I don't buy that business completely but I don't care to see this turn into yet another Hillis thread. God knows we've had enough.



He should be held accountable anyway if for no other reason than he is the coach. He should be held accountable as the previous regime was 'held accountable' on these very forums for similar failures. He should be held accountable when picks are given up for players that amount to rent-a-player for a season and then the team is left holding a cap hit and no pick or both!


lol hochstein blew out his knee man...and wasnt even expected back till October....kinda of a good excuse for not being 100% or excellent right now, just ask clady.......