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broncofaninfla
09-07-2010, 07:05 AM
• Personnel Acumen Award, Rocky Mountain Version: To Denver coach Josh McDaniels and GM Brian Xanders, who last year dealt a 2010 first-round pick (14th overall) to Seattle for its second-round choice -- to draft 5-foot-9 Wake Forest cornerback Alphonso Smith. Smith couldn't crack the starting lineup, so he was shipped Saturday to Detroit for backup tight end Dan Gronkowski. This is how bad an error it was: Denver took the 14th overall pick in 2010 and traded it for the 255th pick in the 2009 draft. That's ridiculous. The Broncos also cut defensive end Jarvis Green, who got $3.2 million in guarantees from them last spring and never played a regular-season snap.

Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/writers/peter_king/09/05/mmqb/index.html?xid=cnnbin&hpt=Sbin#ixzz0yqQ9HjM3 (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/writers/peter_king/09/05/mmqb/index.html?xid=cnnbin&hpt=Sbin#ixzz0yqQ9HjM3)

Jaws
09-07-2010, 07:13 AM
Painful reading.

claymore
09-07-2010, 07:17 AM
Its only going to get worse.

Northman
09-07-2010, 07:19 AM
Cue the excuses

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claymore
09-07-2010, 07:27 AM
Its not the pick itself that pisses me off. Its the fact they mortgaged the future (future #1 pick) when they knowingly werent prepared for the draft.

I see the same logic used with the Smith pick on most of McD's decisions. He thinks with his dick and not his head.

UnderArmour
09-07-2010, 07:38 AM
I'm more pissed off that we carried 6 Cornerbacks and Cassius Vaugn is one of them yet we had to dump Alphonso Smith for some scrub TE from Detroit. We really couldn't have given Alphonso one more year?

Elevation inc
09-07-2010, 07:39 AM
there is no excuse for that decision, it was horrible, but he acts like we are the only regime to ever make a mistake in the draft.....people must not realize that it happens plenty of places. why isnt he talking about first rd bust leinart, or how jay cutler hasnt even come close to his draft pick status.....it happens all the time.......

his FA sucess rate vs bust rate so far is absolutely a plus and has been a highlight for josh, and he fails to mention the 1.4 million and almost 1 million we saved by releasing stokes and reid. to ease the jarvis green sting. how many times have we seen coaches hang on to players and push a young guy out only to see that young guy go somewhere else and perform...at least MCD admits it and moves on quickly.

the smith pick and quinn picks were bad period, no way around that as well as the schuleter pick.......but we still have olsen/ayers/moreno/mcbath/bruton who are very much alive and kicking on the 53 and ready to contribute, so the jury can not be decided on them. If they stick well thats far more positives and success than busts from a draft MCD was not prepared for at all. As many news outlets and he himself have stated.


and Im sorry this years draft the jury is still out but i have seen nothing from tebow that looks like he wont make it, and while DT has been injured the small window he wasnt he showed great promise. Walton and beadles are already key OL contributors as rookies. Decker was the leading reciever in receptions, Cox, Thompson, and undrafted Cassius vaughn show huge promise vs where they were drafted. And Eric olsen made the 53.


if you take a 2 year window i guarentee there are more positives than negatives and its not even close when you combine all his personel moves

drewloc
09-07-2010, 07:39 AM
Honestly, I'm not that upset with the Jarvis Green thing, there have been plenty of crappy FA signings for all teams, ours included. I am less than happy about the Alphonso Smith deal, and the thought of losing that first round pick is frustrating. Only thing we can hope for is that this is a learning experience.

Elevation inc
09-07-2010, 07:41 AM
I'm more pissed off that we carried 6 Cornerbacks and Cassius Vaugn is one of them yet we had to dump Alphonso Smith for some scrub TE from Detroit. We really couldn't have given Alphonso one more year?

i dont think so, he was afraid to make tackles, and couldnt do it well. he was lost in zone coverage, his ball skills were shot becasue of his lack of confidence, and he showed zilch on returns. He also wasnt a special teams contributor.....so it really isnt a huge loss....I will take the speed demon cassius over smith any day on special teams.....especially since smith hadnt done enough to even show he was the 4th best CB.....vaugh may not see the field, but smith wasnt going to either which is where special teams came into play in a big way

Elevation inc
09-07-2010, 07:44 AM
i do have to say though why isnt king mentioning what the jets gave up to draft Sanchez, who has been a failure and looks even worse this year??????

i would classify the move up for sanchez as pretty stupid.....in fact i would even make it comparable to the smith pick, since everyone that was smart new sanchez wasnt even close to ready for the pros......and sure enough a year and some change later he looks like a 5th rd qb pick and he isnt improving......he is like leinart 2.0

claymore
09-07-2010, 07:48 AM
I'm more pissed off that we carried 6 Cornerbacks and Cassius Vaugn is one of them yet we had to dump Alphonso Smith for some scrub TE from Detroit. We really couldn't have given Alphonso one more year?
I agree Smith should have gotten more time. One year is not enough time, when we invested what we did.


there is no excuse for that decision, it was horrible, but he acts like we are the only regime to ever make a mistake in the draft.....people must not realize that it happens plenty of places. why isnt he talking about first rd bust leinart, or how jay cutler hasnt even come close to his draft pick status.....it happens all the time.......

his FA sucess rate vs bust rate so far is absolutely a plus and has been a highlight for josh, and he fails to mention the 1.4 million and almost 1 million we saved by releasing stokes and reid. to ease the jarvis green sting. how many times have we seen coaches hang on to players and push a young guy out only to see that young guy go somewhere else and perform...at least MCD admits it and moves on quickly.

the smith pick and quinn picks were bad period, no way around that as well as the schuleter pick.......but we still have olsen/ayers/moreno/mcbath/bruton who are very much alive and kicking on the 53 and ready to contribute, so the jury can not be decided on them. If they stick well thats far more positives and success than busts from a draft MCD was not prepared for at all. As many news outlets and he himself have stated.


and Im sorry this years draft the jury is still out but i have seen nothing from tebow that looks like he wont make it, and while DT has been injured the small window he wasnt he showed great promise. Walton and beadles are already key OL contributors as rookies. Decker was the leading reciever in receptions, Cox, Thompson, and undrafted Cassius vaughn show huge promise vs where they were drafted. And Eric olsen made the 53.


if you take a 2 year window i guarentee there are more positives than negatives and its not even close when you combine all his personel moves
Depends on how you look at it. I agree on McBath, and Bruton and Moreno but the rest havent shown anything.

Tebow has shown as much as Brad lee vanpelt did. DT, meh...

As for Cutler, he more than produced for us on the field and in the trade. Not many picks give an organization as much in return as the Cutler pick did. Same can be said for Marshall.

MadMax
09-07-2010, 07:53 AM
I'm with those who wish Smith could have gotten another year, he really did look like he was close to becoming something. However, if JMD didn't agree I applaud him for cutting his losses now, most teams would rather keep a bust on their roster longer than necessary just so they don't have to take the PR hit of admitting they're a bust. If Smith wasn't going to work out, then JMD chose to make the team better at the cost of leaving himself open for criticism from every sports journalist out there(again). As I see myself saying with every decision he makes, I hope he's right.

Elevation inc
09-07-2010, 08:03 AM
I agree Smith should have gotten more time. One year is not enough time, when we invested what we did.


Depends on how you look at it. I agree on McBath, and Bruton and Moreno but the rest havent shown anything.

Tebow has shown as much as Brad lee vanpelt did. DT, meh...

As for Cutler, he more than produced for us on the field and in the trade. Not many picks give an organization as much in return as the Cutler pick did. Same can be said for Marshall.

well ayers has shown me enough to know he is almost there.....i am expecting based of his body of work from last year and how close he was and this year, that he is in line for 8-10 sacks....but who knows.....i just think the media is going crazy with this BS......when other teams have far deeper and bigger mistakes still on their roster(5th overall pick Vernon Gholston/3rd overall pick Tyson jackson/5th overall pick Mark sanchez, just for starters.....)

BeefStew25
09-07-2010, 08:06 AM
If Cocks is the real deal, we should give two poops about Phonso.

joshy lost on that deal, but hopefully he won a couple others.

Mike
09-07-2010, 08:08 AM
:deadhorse:

BeefStew25
09-07-2010, 08:09 AM
I do have a little giggle that we traded for a pass catching TE. That is just funny to me.

BeefStew25
09-07-2010, 08:10 AM
I also giggle when I think of Jamal Williams in just a jock strap.

Dirk
09-07-2010, 08:11 AM
Meh....like the saying goes..."Sometimes you win some, and sometimes you lose some".

It's the NFL. The draft is a crap shoot.

Tned
09-07-2010, 08:14 AM
there is no excuse for that decision, it was horrible, but he acts like we are the only regime to ever make a mistake in the draft.....people must not realize that it happens plenty of places. why isnt he talking about first rd bust leinart, or how jay cutler hasnt even come close to his draft pick status.....it happens all the time.......


It wasn't just the fact he was a draft bust that has raised attention, but the fact he traded a first, which most expected to be a very good 2010 pick, in order to draft a CB with questionable physical talents in the 2nd round. It's the totality of the evidence that has led to such severe criticism. Everyone makes draft day mistakes, but when you trade a future number one to get a CB who the 'draft experts' say is too small and slow to be anything more than a nickel/slot CB, you are going to get heat when you then traded him for a late round TE who was on the other teams chopping block.

As to Cutler, who knows. In Denver, most people (other than Denver fans caught up in the emotion) would disagree with your assessment, which is why the going price was two first round picks + a starting QB, and there were multiple teams willing to pay that price. Based on that, clealry GM's around the league believe he exceeded his draft status. Obviously, he had a crappy year in Chicago, so the jury is still out on where his career goes from here.

Elevation inc
09-07-2010, 08:19 AM
It wasn't just the fact he was a draft bust that has raised attention, but the fact he traded a first, which most expected to be a very good 2010 pick, in order to draft a CB with questionable physical talents in the 2nd round. It's the totality of the evidence that has led to such severe criticism. Everyone makes draft day mistakes, but when you trade a future number one to get a CB who the 'draft experts' say is too small and slow to be anything more than a nickel/slot CB, you are going to get heat when you then traded him for a late round TE who was on the other teams chopping block.

As to Cutler, who knows. In Denver, most people (other than Denver fans caught up in the emotion) would disagree with your assessment, which is why the going price was two first round picks + a starting QB, and there were multiple teams willing to pay that price. Based on that, clealry GM's around the league believe he exceeded his draft status. Obviously, he had a crappy year in Chicago, so the jury is still out on where his career goes from here.



many teams have traded the farm up and down and around for propsects they were betting on who busted in a big way, denver isnt the first team nor the last team who will do it...and we still dont even know what smith will eventually become..and i have already said that was a stupid decision, i also in numerous threads agreed with why people were upset with that, and i was one of them, but the media is going to a whole new level to report our errors when there are plenty of drafting mistakes form this draft and last.

sorry but king just pisses me off, i guess thats just all there is to it. Him and clayton....both make me wanan do evil things fater reading there stuff....:beer::lol:

claymore
09-07-2010, 08:21 AM
well ayers has shown me enough to know he is almost there.....i am expecting based of his body of work from last year and how close he was and this year, that he is in line for 8-10 sacks....but who knows.....i just think the media is going crazy with this BS......when other teams have far deeper and bigger mistakes still on their roster(5th overall pick Vernon Gholston/3rd overall pick Tyson jackson/5th overall pick Mark sanchez, just for starters.....)

No one has had as many high picks as us in the past 2 years. We have 2 starters out of 8 1st and second round picks. One of which Ayers, is completley unproven. Moreno has been mediocre at best.

Elevation inc
09-07-2010, 08:23 AM
It wasn't just the fact he was a draft bust that has raised attention, but the fact he traded a first, which most expected to be a very good 2010 pick, in order to draft a CB with questionable physical talents in the 2nd round. It's the totality of the evidence that has led to such severe criticism. Everyone makes draft day mistakes, but when you trade a future number one to get a CB who the 'draft experts' say is too small and slow to be anything more than a nickel/slot CB, you are going to get heat when you then traded him for a late round TE who was on the other teams chopping block.

As to Cutler, who knows. In Denver, most people (other than Denver fans caught up in the emotion) would disagree with your assessment, which is why the going price was two first round picks + a starting QB, and there were multiple teams willing to pay that price. Based on that, clealry GM's around the league believe he exceeded his draft status. Obviously, he had a crappy year in Chicago, so the jury is still out on where his career goes from here.

qb's are judged on wins and losses....jay cutler hasnt reached his 11th overall pick status...it is what it is.....hope he does and i hope to god martz's dreadful scheme in chicago doesnt ruin his career, but he hasnt played like the 11th overall pick....he had 1 year in 4 so far thats been outstanding but he ultimaetly choked that year like rest of the team, so yes the jury is still out on him....and when a jury is still out on someone it usually means they havent hit that status.....and chicago gave us 2 #1's and orton because there idiots, not because he was worth it......

Northman
09-07-2010, 08:23 AM
Meh....like the saying goes..."Sometimes you win some, and sometimes you lose some".

It's the NFL. The draft is a crap shoot.


Yep. You especially lose when you reach for a player and it doesnt pan out.

Tned
09-07-2010, 08:24 AM
many teams have traded the farm up and down and around for propsects they were betting on who busted in a big way, denver isnt the first team nor the last team who will do it...and we still dont even know what smith will eventually become..and i have already said that was a stupid decision, i also in numerous threads agreed with why people were upset with that, and i was one of them, but the media is going to a whole new level to report our errors when there are plenty of drafting mistakes form this draft and last.

sorry but king just pisses me off, i guess thats just all there is to it. Him and clayton....both make me wanan do evil things fater reading there stuff....:beer::lol:

King has been very pro-McDaniels, and McDaniels pro-King. McDaniels pissed off the local media last year, because he was more likely to give interviews with the national media (King and others) than local media.

That said, when you make a move that bold, to trade a future first to pick a 2nd with questionable physical skills, you are going to get heat when the move doesn't work out.

I'm not crucifying McDaniels for the move, I am simply explaining why he is getting so much heat for it.

BeefStew25
09-07-2010, 08:27 AM
Drafting Phonso and trading him was like me giving my wife herpes and saying sorry.

It just won't work. The pain runs too deep.

Elevation inc
09-07-2010, 08:27 AM
No one has had as many high picks as us in the past 2 years. We have 2 starters out of 8 1st and second round picks. One of which Ayers, is completley unproven. Moreno has been mediocre at best.

lol....ayers/moreno are starters and this whole first rd rookie class, hasnt even hit the field yet, kinda hard to determine there full worth yet dont ya think:salute:

the only 2 out of those eight that for sure sucked are smith and quinn(but how do we know he wont light it up when healthy this year????)....you have no idea concretly about the rest as do I.......its fun to play devils advocate but it goes both ways.....

claymore
09-07-2010, 08:34 AM
lol....ayers/moreno are starters and this whole first rd rookie class, hasnt even hit the field yet, kinda hard to determine there full worth yet dont ya think:salute:

the only 2 out of those eight that for sure sucked are smith and quinn(but how do we know he wont light it up when healthy this year????)....you have no idea concretly about the rest as do I.......its fun to play devils advocate but it goes both ways.....

They have to start in order to light it up. That goes for both draft classes.

Northman
09-07-2010, 08:34 AM
qb's are judged on wins and losses....jay cutler hasnt reached his 11th overall pick status...it is what it is.....hope he does and i hope to god martz's dreadful scheme in chicago doesnt ruin his career, but he hasnt played like the 11th overall pick....he had 1 year in 4 so far thats been outstanding but he ultimaetly choked that year like rest of the team, so yes the jury is still out on him....and when a jury is still out on someone it usually means they havent hit that status.....and chicago gave us 2 #1's and orton because there idiots, not because he was worth it......

Obviously, the jury is still out considering where Manning was in his first 4 years.

Peyton Manning was 32-32 (111 Tds, 81 Inst) his first four years in the league. And that was on the same team and same system.

Jay Culter is 24-29, (83 Tds, 63 Ints) not much of a difference there.

claymore
09-07-2010, 08:36 AM
Drafting Phonso and trading him was like me giving my wife herpes and saying sorry.

It just won't work. The pain runs too deep.

But McD cant blame a toilet seat.

BeefStew25
09-07-2010, 08:44 AM
I feel like joshy is a good Catholic man, but never got to be line leader as a kid in school, so he is kinda over compensating for it.

Or maybe he never got to be in charge of the chalkboard erasers.

Because it does seem leadership and power are forced with him.

jhildebrand
09-07-2010, 08:47 AM
I don't speak for anybody else, but for me the issue is the compensation. At the end of the day trading the 14th overall pick for the 259th (or whatever it was) just doesn't sit well.

You have to get better compensation and if you can't then why not hold onto Smith for one more year?

It may work out that Smith goes on to have a fine career and his issues here were location and scheme, etc... Then that broaches a whole other set of issues.

At the end of the day, the better Cox and Syd play the more we will forget (and forgive) the Smith pick.

Northman
09-07-2010, 08:49 AM
I don't speak for anybody else, but for me the issue is the compensation. At the end of the day trading the 14th overall pick for the 259th (or whatever it was) just doesn't sit well.

You have to get better compensation and if you can't then why not hold onto Smith for one more year?

It may work out that Smith goes on to have a fine career and his issues here were location and scheme, etc... Then that broaches a whole other set of issues.

At the end of the day, the better Cox and Syd play the more we will forget (and forgive) the Smith pick.


Did anybody really think we would get equal compensation for a bust? I never expected to get anything of real value for him.

jhildebrand
09-07-2010, 08:52 AM
Did anybody really think we would get equal compensation for a bust? I never expected to get anything of real value for him.

Well the Ravens came calling. I am guessing they would have offered something more than a 'pass catching' TE they were going to cut anyways.

Edit: I still maintain it is still way too early to label Smith a bust. He is only going into his second year. Change of scenery, coaches, scheme, etc... and we may see a different player altogether. If that happens McD will be blasted even more. The guy can't win!

Northman
09-07-2010, 08:54 AM
Well the Ravens came calling. I am guessing they would have offered something more than a 'pass catching' TE they were going to cut anyways.

Did they? I never heard any reports on a possible deal here.

Elevation inc
09-07-2010, 08:54 AM
Obviously, the jury is still out considering where Manning was in his first 4 years.

Peyton Manning was 32-32 (111 Tds, 81 Inst) his first four years in the league. And that was on the same team and same system.

Jay Culter is 24-29, (83 Tds, 63 Ints) not much of a difference there.

fair enough:salute:

Northman
09-07-2010, 08:56 AM
fair enough:salute:

I will add this as i do agree with some of your points. As far as composure and character Manning was WAY ahead of the curve there. So, you werent totally off base. :lol:

BeefStew25
09-07-2010, 08:56 AM
But seriously, it would be awesome to have Xanders job. Make great cash and really never have to make the hard decisions.

Like Mussolini before the Allieds invaded the boot.

Elevation inc
09-07-2010, 08:57 AM
I will add this as i do agree with some of your points. As far as composure and character Manning was WAY ahead of the curve there. So, you werent totally off base. :lol:

i think thats kinda what i wanted to explain but i guess i kinda wandered off for fear of a board meltdown, by bringing cutler raging into this thread:lol:

jhildebrand
09-07-2010, 09:03 AM
Did they? I never heard any reports on a possible deal here.

There were two reports I can recall:

1) ESPN Bill Will on his afcw blog
2) NFL RUMOR mill

A week after they were published Ozzie said they weren't trading with the Broncos. A couple of days later they traded with Seattle.

BigDaddyBronco
09-07-2010, 09:11 AM
No one has had as many high picks as us in the past 2 years. We have 2 starters out of 8 1st and second round picks. One of which Ayers, is completley unproven. Moreno has been mediocre at best.

Not that I don't agree with you, but the NFL talking heads say you can't grade a draft until 3 years after the draft. Meaning both Moreno and Ayers might be busts too.

Northman
09-07-2010, 09:12 AM
Edit: I still maintain it is still way too early to label Smith a bust. He is only going into his second year. Change of scenery, coaches, scheme, etc... and we may see a different player altogether. If that happens McD will be blasted even more. The guy can't win!

Im sure he will be but even if he is THAT would be deservedly so. Even though i think he wont pan out im not at camp nor around the players everyday like McD is. I based all my opinions on what i see on the field when he is in there, what i expect from a guy taken at his spot, and what journalist and commentators point out in their articles or interviews. If Smith becomes a great player the onus will still be on McD because he should know better than anyone on this message board. But, to see him trade him away kind of tells me that he feels the same way i do.

Ravage!!!
09-07-2010, 09:12 AM
I will add this as i do agree with some of your points. As far as composure and character Manning was WAY ahead of the curve there. So, you werent totally off base. :lol:

At the same time, Manning was WAAyYYYy ahead of the curve of nearly every QB ever drafted as far as that goes.

Northman
09-07-2010, 09:13 AM
There were two reports I can recall:

1) ESPN Bill Will on his afcw blog
2) NFL RUMOR mill

A week after they were published Ozzie said they weren't trading with the Broncos. A couple of days later they traded with Seattle.

Did they say what they were willing to give up?

Ravage!!!
09-07-2010, 09:14 AM
Edit: I still maintain it is still way too early to label Smith a bust. He is only going into his second year. Change of scenery, coaches, scheme, etc... and we may see a different player altogether. If that happens McD will be blasted even more. The guy can't win!

Yeah.. but he's a bust because he can't even outplay, beat out, guys that weren't even good enough to be drafted. They were in their first years, and played better. So its not like he's being beat out by veterans. He's being beat out by rookies... undrafted rookies.

claymore
09-07-2010, 09:16 AM
Not that I don't agree with you, but the NFL talking heads say you can't grade a draft until 3 years after the draft. Meaning both Moreno and Ayers might be busts too.

I agree a 100%. IMO, trading smith after one year was the only way to make the situation worse.

Northman
09-07-2010, 09:17 AM
Yeah.. but he's a bust because he can't even outplay, beat out, guys that weren't even good enough to be drafted. They were in their first years, and played better. So its not like he's being beat out by veterans. He's being beat out by rookies... undrafted rookies.

Ill never understand why some people dont think that high draft picks should contribute right away. There's a reason that high draft picks have the value they do and although they may not always pan out the whole idea is too have them contribute sooner than late round picks. This is how teams get better by getting players who are more NFL ready than the next guy. Even if Smith 2 years from now becomes great it was still a major reach for him considering where he was taken.

jhildebrand
09-07-2010, 09:21 AM
Yeah.. but he's a bust because he can't even outplay, beat out, guys that weren't even good enough to be drafted. They were in their first years, and played better. So its not like he's being beat out by veterans. He's being beat out by rookies... undrafted rookies.

Fair enough. Shawn Springs was eaten alive his rookie year and many feared he was a bust. Elway demoralized that guy. It took him a while to get better. He eventually went to Washington and still got better.

I guess all I am trying to say is we know the guy performed well in college at a decent school in a bigger conference. He should be able to perform in the league at least at a level to beat out undrafted's. What we don't know is how Denver was trying to use him and coaching him vs what he was used to doing at Wake. One year, IMO, is not enough to judge the guy. After all, Bly looked like doo here and has seemed to do ok since leaving.

I will say Smith wasn't going to succeed here without any changes to scheme or staff so the move was necessary but I wont write him off yet and I still think there could have been better compensation from the Ravens.

jhildebrand
09-07-2010, 09:23 AM
Ill never understand why some people dont think that high draft picks should contribute right away. There's a reason that high draft picks have the value they do and although they may not always pan out the whole idea is too have them contribute sooner than late round picks. This is how teams get better by getting players who are more NFL ready than the next guy. Even if Smith 2 years from now becomes great it was still a major reach for him considering where he was taken.

Outside of DL and QB I think every #1 should be pushing for the starting role and at the least playing a good amount.

Dreadnought
09-07-2010, 09:28 AM
I agree a 100%. IMO, trading smith after one year was the only way to make the situation worse.

Here I'll disagree, Clay. The guy was a stiff, and McD deserves some credit for throwing this hand in now rather than wasting time and a roster spot on him. Syd'quan earned the right to his shot, and keeping Smith might likely have made that not happen

Elevation inc
09-07-2010, 09:29 AM
At the same time, Manning was WAAyYYYy ahead of the curve of nearly every QB ever drafted as far as that goes.

well some would say tebows intagibles are ahead of where manning's were coming into the league, and they could be right, who knows about the rest, but Tebow def has the leadership qualities and a good head on his shoulder like manning did when he came in the league....

no idea if it will translate the way we hope though.......

Elevation inc
09-07-2010, 09:31 AM
I agree a 100%. IMO, trading smith after one year was the only way to make the situation worse.

that maybe so, but he was beat out convincingly by vaughn, cox, thompson....MCd said the best player will play, and he stands by that....should mean no more webster's, koutivede's, winborn's, lowery's, manuel's or mcree's down the road:lol:

Lonestar
09-07-2010, 09:32 AM
Looks like king rehashed the DP article and the same ideas were discussed there.

So far nothing has been decided nor will be. To much divide amoungst the members may take a decade to get over.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

claymore
09-07-2010, 09:36 AM
Here I'll disagree, Clay. The guy was a stiff, and McD deserves some credit for throwing this hand in now rather than wasting time and a roster spot on him. Syd'quan earned the right to his shot, and keeping Smith might likely have made that not happen

That calls into question the 3 year bust rule on rookies. Besides, if we were hurting for roster space we wouldnt have traded for Tony shefflers backup.

claymore
09-07-2010, 09:41 AM
that maybe so, but he was beat out convincingly by vaughn, cox, thompson....MCd said the best player will play, and he stands by that....should mean no more webster's, koutivede's, winborn's, lowery's, manuel's or mcree's down the road:lol:

He was beat out last year too. Not arguing that he was good. I just dont agree with trading him after a year for the backup of a player we also traded.

Dreadnought
09-07-2010, 09:42 AM
That calls into question the 3 year bust rule on rookies. Besides, if we were hurting for roster space we wouldnt have traded for Tony shefflers backup.

Some busts are worse than others, and this one was a Primo bust. Best to cut your losses, kind of like when you date a psycho girl. You need to cut those ties in the shortest possible time.

Imagine how much further ahead the Raiders would have been if they had realized JaMarcus Russell was awful and always would be right away? Sucks for them. Thankfully, we aren't in that same boat with Smith now

rcsodak
09-07-2010, 09:47 AM
Its not the pick itself that pisses me off. Its the fact they mortgaged the future (future #1 pick) when they knowingly werent prepared for the draft.

I see the same logic used with the Smith pick on most of McD's decisions. He thinks with his dick and not his head.
funny......I heard thats how you type!







;-)
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rcsodak
09-07-2010, 09:54 AM
I agree Smith should have gotten more time. One year is not enough time, when we invested what we did.


Depends on how you look at it. I agree on McBath, and Bruton and Moreno but the rest havent shown anything.

Tebow has shown as much as Brad lee vanpelt did. DT, meh...

As for Cutler, he more than produced for us on the field and in the trade. Not many picks give an organization as much in return as the Cutler pick did. Same can be said for Marshall.
Just think of the money saved with the release of Smith. Gave up a mid-1 and he was pd as a 2. Good move!
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topscribe
09-07-2010, 09:58 AM
If Cocks is the real deal, we should give two poops about Phonso.

joshy lost on that deal, but hopefully he won a couple others.

My thoughts exactly (except for the misspelling. :D ) It's beginning to appear,
in the case of Cox, the Broncos may have gotten a 1st rounder in the 5th round . . .

-----

Elevation inc
09-07-2010, 09:59 AM
He was beat out last year too. Not arguing that he was good. I just dont agree with trading him after a year for the backup of a player we also traded.

yeah but he was a rookie then so it wasnt as big a deal, but when we had to sign law of the street and tony carter a udfa was making him look silly, well the crads started to fall. the when a 5th rd pick, a seventh rd pick, and both UDFA's carter and vaughn outplay you....well the writing was on the wall.....he was just a poor fit here...he is a man corner period, he sucks at zone and will always be a horrible nickel corner....but he could be a solid number 2 someday in teh right scheme, problem is goodman and bailey have at least 2 more years in the outside roles...so phonz was screwed

why keep a guy that cant play zone or the nickel for 2 years while you wait to see him play outside, especially when he cant even support your special teams squads.....

smith just ended up being the big black eye MCD didnt need, hopefully the wins we get this year will shut everyone up......:D:beer:

rcsodak
09-07-2010, 10:01 AM
No one has had as many high picks as us in the past 2 years. We have 2 starters out of 8 1st and second round picks. One of which Ayers, is completley unproven. Moreno has been mediocre at best.
Almost reminds me of shanny's non-success of ENTIRE drafts.
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Elevation inc
09-07-2010, 10:03 AM
Just think of the money saved with the release of Smith. Gave up a mid-1 and he was pd as a 2. Good move!
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I hope you dont mean that:tsk:, we paid him a big signing bonus for nothing.....

Tned
09-07-2010, 10:03 AM
My thoughts exactly (except for the misspelling. :D ) It's beginning to appear,
in the case of Cox, the Broncos may have gotten a 1st rounder in the 5th round . . .

-----

Reportedly, the only reason he fell to the 5th round was character concerns following an incident at the Cotton Bowl (I think it was the Cotton Bowl), where he missed curfew twice and was suspended and didn't play in the game. I'm not sure what round he would have gone in if not for that, but it sounded like he would have gone much higher. I'm going by memory, but I think those details are correct.

LRtagger
09-07-2010, 10:04 AM
It was a horrible trade. A horrible draft pick. And I think they realized it right away when the kid got into camp.

There were mixed feelings on the guy by the league's GMs. I heard some say they had a 1st round grade on him and some say they had a 3rd or 4th. I think the general consensus was late first, early second.

I think McDaniels liked the kid and when he was available that late, he pulled the trigger prematurely. It baffles me because McD seems to be a guy that likes elite size and speed on defense. Obviously Smith lacks size and speed, so I just didnt get it.

Oh well. It wont be the last draft mistake ever made. At least we got two promising guys in this draft that outplayed him. Time to move on.

rcsodak
09-07-2010, 10:07 AM
Yep. You especially lose when you reach for a player and it doesnt pan out.
middlebrooks
lelie
toviosi
dan williams
watts
pierce
.....and thats just off the top of my head. Sorry to resort to bringing shannys failures up, but until ya'll start ADMITTING its commonplace for 'reaches' and 'busts'.......
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Elevation inc
09-07-2010, 10:09 AM
Reportedly, the only reason he fell to the 5th round was character concerns following an incident at the Cotton Bowl (I think it was the Cotton Bowl), where he missed curfew twice and was suspended and didn't play in the game. I'm not sure what round he would have gone in if not for that, but it sounded like he would have gone much higher. I'm going by memory, but I think those details are correct.

most draft geeks/analyists/Niks/Nerds/Guru's including myself had a late 1st rd grade on him pre bowl/combine etc......i thought he was completly off our radar though because of character stuff, and the way MCD works.....i had him as a 4th rd pick after the cotton bowl......

Champ isn't getting any younger and probally has 2-3 years left at CB and the thought we may have found a legit number 1 in rd 5 is salavating...far to early to know but if he turns into a reliable 1 or 2 corner he was a absolute steal........

rcsodak
09-07-2010, 10:09 AM
Drafting Phonso and trading him was like me giving my wife herpes and saying sorry.

It just won't work. The pain runs too deep.
You have Herpes? Thats gotta suck.
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Dzone
09-07-2010, 10:14 AM
Drafting a guy with a broken foot #1 this year. D.T. looked good before his foot went bad again, but does anyone know when his foot will be able to be cut on and run full speed, stop and turn, etc...

Northman
09-07-2010, 10:14 AM
middlebrooks
lelie
toviosi
dan williams
watts
pierce
.....and thats just off the top of my head. Sorry to resort to bringing shannys failures up, but until ya'll start ADMITTING its commonplace for 'reaches' and 'busts'.......
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Ive admitted it for years now. But, that coach is no longer here and its time to hold the current coach accountable just like we did with you know who. :coffee:

LRtagger
09-07-2010, 10:18 AM
Ive admitted it for years now. But, that coach is no longer here and its time to hold the current coach accountable just like we did with you know who. :coffee:

What exactly do you mean by "it's time to hold the current coach accountable"?

Are you saying he should be fired over this move?

If you are saying he should be criticized by media and fans, well the time for that started before he even set foot in Denver for some. It's been ongoing since day 1.

arapaho2
09-07-2010, 10:21 AM
middlebrooks
lelie
toviosi
dan williams
watts
pierce
.....and thats just off the top of my head. Sorry to resort to bringing shannys failures up, but until ya'll start ADMITTING its commonplace for 'reaches' and 'busts'.......
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i guess i failed to see where any of those were as extreme reaches as tradeing a 14th overall pick for a 2nd straight up...then watching that pick fail to even crack the backup spot and traded for a 7th rnd TE.....essentially we traded the 2010 14th overall pick...for the 2009 255th pick...i know people can twist that into something glorious..if not deflect it to shanny...but damm its a monumental mistake

they may have been bad picks...but we didnt sale the farm to get them

rcsodak
09-07-2010, 10:27 AM
Obviously, the jury is still out considering where Manning was in his first 4 years.

Peyton Manning was 32-32 (111 Tds, 81 Inst) his first four years in the league. And that was on the same team and same system.

Jay Culter is 24-29, (83 Tds, 63 Ints) not much of a difference there.
Jay Cutler doesn't hold Manning's jock strap.

He may sniff it from the laundry bin, but thats a different thread.
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Northman
09-07-2010, 10:28 AM
What exactly do you mean by "it's time to hold the current coach accountable"?

Simple. It basically means people on this board need to stop making excuses for every single thing this guy does. He isnt perfect but people want to try and make it sound like he is. He's makes mistakes, but pointing to any former coaches as a defense is stupid. Those guys are gone and have nothing to do with the decisions made by this guy. If those guys deserve criticism for their mistakes, so should the current HC.


Are you saying he should be fired over this move?

No, thats moronic. If he doesnt get us to the playoffs this year or next than im sure Bowlen will start considering it.


If you are saying he should be criticized by media and fans, well the time for that started before he even set foot in Denver for some. It's been ongoing since day 1.

As well as he should be. He's made some decisions that leave people scratching their heads a little bit.

pnbronco
09-07-2010, 10:28 AM
there is no excuse for that decision, it was horrible, but he acts like we are the only regime to ever make a mistake in the draft.....people must not realize that it happens plenty of places. why isnt he talking about first rd bust leinart, or how jay cutler hasnt even come close to his draft pick status.....it happens all the time.......

his FA sucess rate vs bust rate so far is absolutely a plus and has been a highlight for josh, and he fails to mention the 1.4 million and almost 1 million we saved by releasing stokes and reid. to ease the jarvis green sting. how many times have we seen coaches hang on to players and push a young guy out only to see that young guy go somewhere else and perform...at least MCD admits it and moves on quickly.

the smith pick and quinn picks were bad period, no way around that as well as the schuleter pick.......but we still have olsen/ayers/moreno/mcbath/bruton who are very much alive and kicking on the 53 and ready to contribute, so the jury can not be decided on them. If they stick well thats far more positives and success than busts from a draft MCD was not prepared for at all. As many news outlets and he himself have stated.


and Im sorry this years draft the jury is still out but i have seen nothing from tebow that looks like he wont make it, and while DT has been injured the small window he wasnt he showed great promise. Walton and beadles are already key OL contributors as rookies. Decker was the leading reciever in receptions, Cox, Thompson, and undrafted Cassius vaughn show huge promise vs where they were drafted. And Eric olsen made the 53.


if you take a 2 year window i guarentee there are more positives than negatives and its not even close when you combine all his personel moves


Great post Ele. Coach made a mistake and no one has to like it. The reality is that in this business these type of mistakes are made. So I got out my Media Guide and here are the Broncos # 1 picks since 1990.

1990 - Alton Montgomery (Shannon Sharp was in the 7th that year)
1991 - Mike Croel
1992 - Tommy Maddox
1993 - Dan Williams
1994 - Allen Alridge
1995 - Jamie Brown
1996- John Mobley
1997 - Trevor Pryce
1998 - Marcus Nash
1999 - Al Wilson
2000 - Deltha O'Neal
2001 - Willie Middlebrooks
2002 - Ashley Lelie
2003 - George Foster
2004 - D.J. Williams
2005 - Darrent Williams
2006 - Jay Cutler
2007 - Jarvis Moss

Hey in 1983 Karl Mecklenburg was the 310 pick of that draft super close to dead last of that draft. The # 1 that year was Chris Hinton.

THIS IS NOT A LIST TO ATTACK ANY FORMER COACHES OR GM'S!

The draft is a crap shot and sometimes it works great and sometimes you make mistakes, it's part of this business. So I would really like if we could please stop....:deadhorse:

Oh and last year I heard King went on and on how great Cutler was doing in CHI and how he was the missing piece they so needed and they were going to the Super Bowl because they had him on their team now. He's a reporter not a fortune teller and actually he's not even a good reporter because he gives out too many opinions and not enough reports.

topscribe
09-07-2010, 10:28 AM
Reportedly, the only reason he fell to the 5th round was character concerns following an incident at the Cotton Bowl (I think it was the Cotton Bowl), where he missed curfew twice and was suspended and didn't play in the game. I'm not sure what round he would have gone in if not for that, but it sounded like he would have gone much higher. I'm going by memory, but I think those details are correct.

That is all true, of which I was aware. I was going by Cox's performance since
the draft. What I was getting at was that Cox was performing and producing at
a level one would expect of a first-rounder. So, regardless of the reasons, Cox
is appearing as one of the steals of the entire draft, which would very well help
to make up for the Smith bust . . .

-----

Northman
09-07-2010, 10:29 AM
Jay Cutler doesn't hold Manning's jock strap.

He may sniff it from the laundry bin, but thats a different thread.
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Amazing.

rcsodak
09-07-2010, 10:30 AM
Well the Ravens came calling. I am guessing they would have offered something more than a 'pass catching' TE they were going to cut anyways.

Edit: I still maintain it is still way too early to label Smith a bust. He is only going into his second year. Change of scenery, coaches, scheme, etc... and we may see a different player altogether. If that happens McD will be blasted even more. The guy can't win!
So I guess McD should have replaced coaches/scheme just to make Smith perform. That the gist you're trying to make?
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Northman
09-07-2010, 10:31 AM
Oh and last year I heard King went on and on how great Cutler was doing in CHI and how he was the missing piece they so needed and they were going to the Super Bowl because they had him on their team now.

Bashing Jay again PN? Arent you beating a dead horse as well? :laugh:

Ravage!!!
09-07-2010, 10:32 AM
i do have to say though why isnt king mentioning what the jets gave up to draft Sanchez, who has been a failure and looks even worse this year??????

i would classify the move up for sanchez as pretty stupid.....in fact i would even make it comparable to the smith pick, since everyone that was smart new sanchez wasnt even close to ready for the pros......and sure enough a year and some change later he looks like a 5th rd qb pick and he isnt improving......he is like leinart 2.0

Wait... how can you say a rookie QB that took them to the AFC Championship has shown to be a failure?????? :confused:

Even Matt Ryan had a big-time sophmore slump, and he's a very good QB.

topscribe
09-07-2010, 10:41 AM
Oh and last year I heard King went on and on how great Cutler was doing in CHI and how he was the missing piece they so needed and they were going to the Super Bowl because they had him on their team now. He's a reporter not a fortune teller and actually he's not even a good reporter because he gives out too many opinions and not enough reports.

I'm sure King is a nice man and very smart generally. It is as a football reporter
that I consider him an idiot. This post of yours and the OP only reinforces my
opinion . . .

-----

Mike
09-07-2010, 10:42 AM
Wait... how can you say a rookie QB that took them to the AFC Championship has shown to be a failure?????? :confused:

Even Matt Ryan had a big-time sophmore slump, and he's a very good QB.

I won't say the Sanchez is a failure, but the Jets D and running game were more instrumental in their success than Sanchez was. Not a fault on him, but let's not say that he led the team there.

Ravage!!!
09-07-2010, 10:43 AM
well some would say tebows intagibles are ahead of where manning's were coming into the league, and they could be right, who knows about the rest, but Tebow def has the leadership qualities and a good head on his shoulder like manning did when he came in the league....

no idea if it will translate the way we hope though.......

His athletic ability may be higher, but I would disagree about 'intangibles' being ahead of Manning.

Manning had the advantage of growing up with a good NFL QB as a dad. He lived football and learning how to diagnose defenses and HOW to study game film from a very young age. His dad played for a team where they would wear bags over their heads. I think Peyton was taught from a very early age on how things in the NFL worked....

Those kind of things are just 'raised' in you and not necessarily taught. Hard to beat that

Ravage!!!
09-07-2010, 10:45 AM
I won't say the Sanchez is a failure, but the Jets D and running game were more instrumental in their success than Sanchez was. Not a fault on him, but let's not say that he led the team there.

I completely agree. Same with Flacco being able to win a Playoff game when completing 11 of 22 passes for 100 yrds or somethign like that.

But at the same time... Sanchez did play well in the playoff games, and didn't lose them the games. So I'm not saying he "led" them there on his back, but he didn't KEEP them from going, either.

topscribe
09-07-2010, 10:51 AM
Wait... how can you say a rookie QB that took them to the AFC Championship has shown to be a failure?????? :confused:

Even Matt Ryan had a big-time sophmore slump, and he's a very good QB.

Did Sanchez take his team to the championship game, or did they take him?

You know, I pointed out that Orton took his Bears to the playoffs (only to be
dumped in an event beyond his control), and I was categorically informed that
his team took him there.

If you consider the numbers between the two, they're not that far off from
each other. So, considering either QB, did he take his team to the playoffs, or
did his team take him (or a little of both)? Whichever it is, does it not apply
to the other?

-----

jhildebrand
09-07-2010, 10:52 AM
So I guess McD should have replaced coaches/scheme just to make Smith perform. That the gist you're trying to make?
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Good ol RC trying to negg, flame, or simply cannot follow a simple conversation.

I guess I will spell it out for you since you insist on failing to follow the thread befrore posting.



I will say Smith wasn't going to succeed here without any changes to scheme or staff so the move was necessary

I think it is obvious that I was in no way advocating for the change to the scheme or staff in any way shape or form to fit the style of one player. :coffee:

Ravage!!!
09-07-2010, 10:53 AM
That calls into question the 3 year bust rule on rookies. Besides, if we were hurting for roster space we wouldnt have traded for Tony shefflers backup.

This is a good point. We've heard so many times around here that "every player" can't be judged until 3 years. This has been said about Smith, Moreno, and Ayers. If thats true, for those that ahve been defending the pick, then there should be criticisms for giving up so quickly. If you dont feel we gave up too quickly, then you can't say that it takes 3 years for a 1st round pick to prove themselves.

As many have said... you should see a 1st round pick getting into that starting lineup by year minimum...if not year one.

jhildebrand
09-07-2010, 10:55 AM
middlebrooks
lelie
toviosi
dan williams
watts
pierce
.....and thats just off the top of my head. Sorry to resort to bringing shannys failures up, but until ya'll start ADMITTING its commonplace for 'reaches' and 'busts'.......
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

Some insist on continuing to throw Shanahan under the bus to somehow justify or validate McD's successes/failures. The fact is McD is being grilled much the same as Shanahan. Furthermore, McD deserves the heat for a failure as epic as A Smith and the value given up to get him. He is judged on his merits and his alone. This is HIS team, HIS players, HIS draft picks. The "scheme, players, newness" BS is over with.

rcsodak
09-07-2010, 10:55 AM
I hope you dont mean that:tsk:, we paid him a big signing bonus for nothing.....
I guarantee his SB isn't as big as EThomas' was. That was my point. :tsk:
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Ravage!!!
09-07-2010, 10:56 AM
Did Sanchez take his team to the championship game, or did they take him?

You know, I pointed out that Orton took his Bears to the playoffs (only to be
dumped in an event beyond his control), and I was categorically informed that
his team took him there.

If you consider the numbers between the two, they're not that far off from
each other. So, considering either QB, did he take his team to the playoffs, or
did his team take him (or a little of both)? Whichever it is, does it not apply
to the other?

-----


I completely agree. Same with Flacco being able to win a Playoff game when completing 11 of 22 passes for 100 yrds or somethign like that.

But at the same time... Sanchez did play well in the playoff games, and didn't lose them the games. So I'm not saying he "led" them there on his back, but he didn't KEEP them from going, either.

really top? Trying to turn this into a debate of you defending Orton? The point was that he called Sanchez a "failure" after going being the starting QB for the entire season and going to the AFC Championship game when only a rookie. I don't call that 'failing.'

But I'll tell you what, I'll compromise. I'll agree that Orton isn't a failure. Better?

topscribe
09-07-2010, 10:56 AM
This is a good point. We've heard so many times around here that "every player" can't be judged until 3 years. This has been said about Smith, Moreno, and Ayers. If thats true, for those that ahve been defending the pick, then there should be criticisms for giving up so quickly. If you dont feel we gave up too quickly, then you can't say that it takes 3 years for a 1st round pick to prove themselves.

As many have said... you should see a 1st round pick getting into that starting lineup by year minimum...if not year one.

I'm not so sure McDaniels "gave up" on Phonz, else would he not just cut him?
That he traded him seems to show he still placed value in him. I'm thinking that
McDaniels just didn't figure he had the time to wait, especially with the advent
of Cox as the potential stud Phonz was supposed to be. That's one scenario,
anyway . . .

-----

claymore
09-07-2010, 10:59 AM
Some insist on continuing to throw Shanahan under the bus to somehow justify or validate McD's successes/failures. The fact is McD is being grilled much the same as Shanahan. Furthermore, McD deserves the heat for a failure as epic as A Smith and the value given up to get him. He is judged on his merits and his alone. This is HIS team, HIS players, HIS draft picks. The "scheme, players, newness" BS is over with.

McD sucks on his own. No need to bring up past failures under different leaders.

Ravage!!!
09-07-2010, 11:00 AM
I'm not so sure McDaniels "gave up" on Phonz, else would he not just cut him?
That he traded him seems to show he still placed value in him. I'm thinking that
McDaniels just didn't figure he had the time to wait, especially with the advent
of Cox as the potential stud Phonz was supposed to be. That's one scenario,
anyway . . .

-----

No... trading him shows that another team put value on him..... and not much.

topscribe
09-07-2010, 11:00 AM
really top? Trying to turn this into a debate of you defending Orton? The point was that he called Sanchez a "failure" after going to the AFC Championship game when only a rookie.

I'll tell you what. I'll compromise. I'll agree that Orton isn't a failure. Better?

Nope. This is the very first time I have ever brought up this comparison, and it
just struck me, since I remember you as one who soundly corrected me on my
assertion regarding Orton's playoff run, that you would turn around and imply
the same thing about Sanchez as you perceived I said about Orton.

It occurred to me, so therefore I inserted it into the conversation. Anyone who
has taken an ongoing beating over supporting a player would understand my
position. So excuse my spamming - it may happen again . . .

-----

Northman
09-07-2010, 11:01 AM
I'm not so sure McDaniels "gave up" on Phonz, else would he not just cut him?

Your kidding right?


That he traded him seems to show he still placed value in him.

Em, no. It means he took a gamble with a heavy price and lost and was trying desperately to get ANYTHING back that he could.


I'm thinking that McDaniels just didn't figure he had the time to wait, especially with the advent of Cox as the potential stud Phonz was supposed to be. That's one scenario,
anyway . . .

-----

Of course he didnt have time to wait, he drafted the guy so that he could contribute like Cox is now. He simply couldnt keep a guy on the roster at the price he paid as a project. He basically cut his losses and got what he could.

topscribe
09-07-2010, 11:02 AM
No... trading him shows that another team put value on him..... and not much.

Okay, let me append to my comment that both teams put a value on him. There.

-----

Ravage!!!
09-07-2010, 11:02 AM
Okay, let me append to my comment that both teams put a value on him. There.

-----

Hey... if a man gives you a dollar for your trash, would it be because YOU valued your trash or because the other guy offered you something for it?

jhildebrand
09-07-2010, 11:03 AM
This is a good point. We've heard so many times around here that "every player" can't be judged until 3 years. This has been said about Smith, Moreno, and Ayers. If thats true, for those that ahve been defending the pick, then there should be criticisms for giving up so quickly. If you dont feel we gave up too quickly, then you can't say that it takes 3 years for a 1st round pick to prove themselves.

As many have said... you should see a 1st round pick getting into that starting lineup by year minimum...if not year one.

I guess this is a bit of what I was trying to get at earlier. You have to give Smith, IMHO, a bit more time before calling him a BUST. He certainly was a BUST here and would have remained as such. Let's see what the next two season's bring before definitively labeling him a BUST.

claymore
09-07-2010, 11:03 AM
Orton Sucks!

rcsodak
09-07-2010, 11:03 AM
i guess i failed to see where any of those were as extreme reaches as tradeing a 14th overall pick for a 2nd straight up...then watching that pick fail to even crack the backup spot and traded for a 7th rnd TE.....essentially we traded the 2010 14th overall pick...for the 2009 255th pick...i know people can twist that into something glorious..if not deflect it to shanny...but damm its a monumental mistake

they may have been bad picks...but we didnt sale the farm to get them
Minimalize all you want of those picks, but my.point is still there. People can't seem to fathom that this is McD's 2nd year. Shanny was doing this after 10! You make light of people like Watts....but at least McD got something for his bad #1 pick.
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Northman
09-07-2010, 11:04 AM
Hey... if a man gives you a dollar for your trash, would it be because YOU valued your trash or because the other guy offered you something for it?

As if coaches are just "cutting" 1st and 2nd rounders without TRYING to get something in return. :lol:

topscribe
09-07-2010, 11:05 AM
Your kidding right?

Em, no. It means he took a gamble with a heavy price and lost and was trying desperately to get ANYTHING back that he could.

Of course he didnt have time to wait, he drafted the guy so that he could contribute like Cox is now. He simply couldnt keep a guy on the roster at the price he paid as a project. He basically cut his losses and got what he could.

Yes, I was only offering a possible scenario, as I pointed out, not trying to state a fact.

-----

jhildebrand
09-07-2010, 11:06 AM
Minimalize all you want of those picks, but my.point is still there. People can't seem to fathom that this is McD's 2nd year. Shanny was doing this after 10! You make light of people like Watts....but at least McD got something for his bad #1 pick.
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Well then, let's be fair. Shanahan also took over an 16-16 team and promptly went 8-8. McD took over an 8-8 team and went 8-8.

The difference was in year 2. Shanahan even with his "failures" (as you put it) went 13-3. So should we expect as much from McD? Oh by the way, Shanahan via Bob Ferguson found guys like TD in the 6th and McD has Moreno in the first.

I mean they are obviously apples to apples right :rolleyes:

topscribe
09-07-2010, 11:07 AM
Hey... if a man gives you a dollar for your trash, would it be because YOU valued your trash or because the other guy offered you something for it?

If I don't see a value in it, I toss it. If I do, I sell it. Does that help to explain how I do it?

-----

Ravage!!!
09-07-2010, 11:07 AM
I guess this is a bit of what I was trying to get at earlier. You have to give Smith, IMHO, a bit more time before calling him a BUST. He certainly was a BUST here and would have remained as such. Let's see what the next two season's bring before definitively labeling him a BUST.

Fair enough. But at this point, he is going to have to play like a pro-bowler to justify spending the 14th overall pick on him.

We've seen it before. THere are many players that are no longer in the NFL because of WHERE they were drafted. If Smith was drafted in the 4th round, he would have a better chance of making the roster. Many players are simply 'Busts' because they are getting so much money. There play is good enough to hold a roster spot compared to someone else, but the fact that the money they are making makes them expendable.

So Smith might be able to hold a roster spot somewhere, but most likely will always be a 1st round bust (even though he was selected in the 2nd).

claymore
09-07-2010, 11:07 AM
Minimalize all you want of those picks, but my.point is still there. People can't seem to fathom that this is McD's 2nd year. Shanny was doing this after 10! You make light of people like Watts....but at least McD got something for his bad #1 pick.
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It only took McD 2 years to equal 14 years worth of Draft flops. Is that your point?

Northman
09-07-2010, 11:08 AM
Yes, I was only offering a possible scenario, as I pointed out, not trying to state a fact.

-----


Its not even logical Top. No coach is going to take a gamble on a 1st and 2nd rounder and just dump them without even seeing if he can find a chump to trade for said player. As Rav pointed out, Detroit felt like Smith was a risk worth taking but for us its clearly just take what you can and get out dodge.

jhildebrand
09-07-2010, 11:09 AM
Fair enough. But at this point, he is going to have to play like a pro-bowler to justify spending the 14th overall pick on him.

We've seen it before. THere are many players that are no longer in the NFL because of WHERE they were drafted. If Smith was drafted in the 4th round, he would have a better chance of making the roster. Many players are simply 'Busts' because they are getting so much money. There play is good enough to hold a roster spot compared to someone else, but the fact that the money they are making makes them expendable.

So Smith might be able to hold a roster spot somewhere, but most likely will always be a 1st round bust (even though he was selected in the 2nd).

I agree there.

claymore
09-07-2010, 11:10 AM
Lets all take a deep breath and realize that Topscribe is wrong in almost every post he writes about Orton.

Northman
09-07-2010, 11:11 AM
Lets all take a deep breath and realize that Topscribe is wrong in almost every post he writes about Orton.

Now see, why did you have to go there. :tsk:

topscribe
09-07-2010, 11:11 AM
It only took McD 2 years to equal 14 years worth of Draft flops. Is that your point?

I refer you back to Post #73 (http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1054976&postcount=73). How is it McDaniels equaled that in two years?

-----

Ravage!!!
09-07-2010, 11:11 AM
If I don't see a value in it, I toss it. If I do, I sell it. Does that help to explain how I do it?

-----

But if you were going to toss it, and someone offers you something... then its not really YOU seeing value in it, its the other guy.

But hey, if it makes you feel better. Then McD saw a 7th round TE, that was going to be cut anyway, value in Smith.

Ravage!!!
09-07-2010, 11:12 AM
I refer you back to Post #73 (http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1054976&postcount=73). How is it McDaniels equaled that in two years?

-----

I think you are taking things a bit too literally.

topscribe
09-07-2010, 11:13 AM
Its not even logical Top. No coach is going to take a gamble on a 1st and 2nd rounder and just dump them without even seeing if he can find a chump to trade for said player. As Rav pointed out, Detroit felt like Smith was a risk worth taking but for us its clearly just take what you can and get out dodge.

Okay, maybe it wasn't. I was just offering a scenario. If you would have offered
this post in the first place, that was all that was needed.

-----

rcsodak
09-07-2010, 11:13 AM
I won't say the Sanchez is a failure, but the Jets D and running game were more instrumental in their success than Sanchez was. Not a fault on him, but let's not say that he led the team there.
LMAO. If the QB isn't plummer or orton, he "led the team". If it was, they won "despite" them. Not attacking rav'or anybody elses mindthought, just making rational points, concerning whether or not they like the player to begin with.
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LRtagger
09-07-2010, 11:14 AM
Simple. It basically means people on this board need to stop making excuses for every single thing this guy does. He isnt perfect but people want to try and make it sound like he is. He's makes mistakes, but pointing to any former coaches as a defense is stupid. Those guys are gone and have nothing to do with the decisions made by this guy. If those guys deserve criticism for their mistakes, so should the current HC.



No, thats moronic. If he doesnt get us to the playoffs this year or next than im sure Bowlen will start considering it.



As well as he should be. He's made some decisions that leave people scratching their heads a little bit.


I still don't understand what you mean by its time he start being held accountable. He has been held accountable since day 1. Sure there are people who see no wrong in anything he has done or will do, but that was true with Shanny and it is probably true with any coach in the history of the NFL no matter how terrible.

I'm just trying to clarify your point...because from my point of view he has been held accountable for every move since day one by a majority of people. I completely thought this was a dumb move, but it doesnt and shouldnt change my opinion on the fact that I think he is moving this team in the right direction.

This draft choice was a complete and utter failure, but the organization will move on as will he...unfortunately I think a lot of fans wont be able to move on from it.

topscribe
09-07-2010, 11:16 AM
I think you are taking things a bit too literally.

Oh, am I? So what is everybody else doing here? Take a look at Post #73. Is
that my post? How about all your posts here? Do you want to discuss the
damned issue, or do you want to comment on how I'm taking things? What have
I done, other than express my opinions? What have you done that has vaulted
you to a level above that?

Do you have a comment on the issue, rather than me? Because that is what
I commented on: the issue, not you.

-----

topscribe
09-07-2010, 11:17 AM
LMAO. If the QB isn't plummer or orton, he "led the team". If it was, they won "despite" them. Not attacking rav'or anybody elses mindthought, just making rational points, concerning whether or not they like the player to begin with.
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Thank you.

-----

topscribe
09-07-2010, 11:19 AM
But if you were going to toss it, and someone offers you something... then its not really YOU seeing value in it, its the other guy.

But hey, if it makes you feel better. Then McD saw a 7th round TE, that was going to be cut anyway, value in Smith.

Why do you have to put ME into seemingly every response to me? If you
disagree, or you see I am wrong, point it out. I'll listen. But cut the "if it makes
you feel better" shit.

-----

arapaho2
09-07-2010, 11:20 AM
Minimalize all you want of those picks, but my.point is still there. People can't seem to fathom that this is McD's 2nd year. Shanny was doing this after 10! You make light of people like Watts....but at least McD got something for his bad #1 pick.
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see this is where your totaly wrong....i was in fullsupport of parting ways, i feel his time here had run its course


you are the one as ussual bringing up former coaches history to make excuses for the present coach

watts was the 54th overall pick...no trades up...he played here two season before being released


that in no way compares to trading the 14th overall pick for the 37th pick straight up...then trading that for the guy picked 255th

had smith been picked in the late second rnd or 3rd rnd as projected....it wouldnt be an issue....but when you trade the 14th overall pick to get him...then trade him straight up for the 255th pick,it deserves some harsh feedback without having to bring up mistakes from the former coach to justify it

claymore
09-07-2010, 11:20 AM
I refer you back to Post #73 (http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1054976&postcount=73). How is it McDaniels equaled that in two years?

-----


1995 - Jamie Brown No clue
1996- John Mobley starter
1997 - Trevor Pryce starter
1998 - Marcus Nash doosh
1999 - Al Wilson starter
2000 - Deltha O'Neal Doosh
2001 - Willie Middlebrooks Doosh
2002 - Ashley Lelie Starter
2003 - George Foster Starter/doosh
2004 - D.J. Williams Starter
2005 - Darrent Williams Starter
2006 - Jay Cutler Starter
2007 - Jarvis Moss doosh
2008 - Ryan Clady Starter


Shanahans drafts dont look as bad as they are made out to be. Foster was a reach, but he still played.

Northman
09-07-2010, 11:21 AM
Sure there are people who see no wrong in anything he has done or will do,

And those are the ones im addressing.


I'm just trying to clarify your point...because from my point of view he has been held accountable for every move since day one by a majority of people. I completely thought this was a dumb move, but it doesnt and shouldnt change my opinion on the fact that I think he is moving this team in the right direction.

Its only been one year, so unlike you im still in the wait and see approach in terms of his success of moving us in the right direction. This year should be a little more telling if indeed that is the case.


This draft choice was a complete and utter failure, but the organization will move on as will he...unfortunately I think a lot of fans wont be able to move on from it.

Probably, just like some have not moved on from downing Cutler or any past players or coaches. Its a whirlwind of rinse and repeat on here.

LRtagger
09-07-2010, 11:21 AM
As if coaches are just "cutting" 1st and 2nd rounders without TRYING to get something in return. :lol:

I can think of two in the past two drafts just off the top of my head

cuzz4169
09-07-2010, 11:23 AM
Whats stupid about the move is...why would you even trade up? you were brought in late as the head coach you didnt have the full time to evaluate the draft and you make a bold move like this to trade up!!!??? just sit where your at make your picks till you have the full year before the draft to evaluate talent. I dont care about J. Green being cut that happens all the time. But atleast they shouldve gave smith one more year. Trading that pick for smith was terrible!!! worst move by McDaniels in my opinion.

Northman
09-07-2010, 11:24 AM
I can think of two in the past two drafts just off the top of my head

And i would argue that those teams would of STILL tried to get compensation for them. Whether or not they were able to is a different story.

jhildebrand
09-07-2010, 11:24 AM
that in no way compares to trading the 14th overall pick for the 37th pick straight up...then trading that for the guy picked 255th

Especially when you consider Revis was selected at #14 in the first round of his draft. :tsk:

Obviously the Watts comparison is appropriate :lol:

I Eat Staples
09-07-2010, 11:24 AM
I'm more pissed off that we carried 6 Cornerbacks and Cassius Vaugn is one of them yet we had to dump Alphonso Smith for some scrub TE from Detroit. We really couldn't have given Alphonso one more year?

Yeah, Cassius Vaughn...what a joke. The Broncos can't judge talent.


I feel like joshy is a good Catholic man, but never got to be line leader as a kid in school, so he is kinda over compensating for it.

Or maybe he never got to be in charge of the chalkboard erasers.

Because it does seem leadership and power are forced with him.

I agree. He's not a natural leader or any of that, he just has a huge ego and makes bold, moronic decisions to make people think he's a stern leader with a plan. In reality, he's a good offensive coordinator that can call plays, but can't manage or scout personnel.

And trading Smith will never make sense, because we got a player that will be forever doomed to obscurity who was a 7th round pick. So we traded a 1st round pick for a 7th round pick that we don't need. We had a good pass catching TE that McD traded, and now he trades for another, much worse one because he hasn't a clue what he's doing.

Ravage!!!
09-07-2010, 11:24 AM
Oh, am I? So what is everybody else doing here? Take a look at Post #73. Is
that my post? How about all your posts here? Do you want to discuss the
damned issue, or do you want to comment on how I'm taking things? What have
I done, other than express my opinions? What have you done that has vaulted
you to a level above that?

Do you have a comment on the issue, rather than me? Because that is what
I commented on: the issue, not you.

-----

Take a deep breath. I wasn't attacking you, but you are pulling this "quit attacking me" thing you do again for no reason.

I was actually pointing out that Clay was exaggerating with his response to rc, and probably BECAUSE it was rc.

claymore
09-07-2010, 11:24 AM
Whats stupid about the move is...why would you even trade up? you were brought in late as the head coach you didnt have the full time to evaluate the draft and you make a bold move like this to trade up!!!??? just sit where your at make your picks till you have the full year before the draft to evaluate talent. I dont care about J. Green being cut that happens all the time. But atleast they shouldve gave smith one more year. Trading that pick for smith was terrible!!! worst move by McDaniels in my opinion.

He thinks with his donger.

arapaho2
09-07-2010, 11:25 AM
LMAO. If the QB isn't plummer or orton, he "led the team". If it was, they won "despite" them. Not attacking rav'or anybody elses mindthought, just making rational points, concerning whether or not they like the player to begin with.
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and likewise.....if the qb is named cutler ...he was at fault of the 8-8 season NOT the horrendous defense he played with all season....however a bad defense for a few games is the reason of ortons 8-8 season :coffee:

pnbronco
09-07-2010, 11:25 AM
Bashing Jay again PN? Arent you beating a dead horse as well? :laugh:

No I'm not, what I'm saying is that's what King said and did they go? Just because it's written in the press does not make it true.....:coffee:

claymore
09-07-2010, 11:26 AM
Yeah, Cassius Vaughn...what a joke. The Broncos can't judge talent.



I agree. He's not a natural leader or any of that, he just has a huge ego and makes bold, moronic decisions to make people think he's a stern leader with a plan. In reality, he's a good offensive coordinator that can call plays, but can't manage or scout personnel.
I disagree. I dont think he is a good offensive coordinator either.

Take a deep breath. I wasn't attacking you, but you are pulling this "quit attacking me" thing you do again for no reason.

I was actually pointing out that Clay was exaggerating with his response to rc, and probably BECAUSE it was rc.
My fault guys. I got a little excited.

Northman
09-07-2010, 11:26 AM
No I'm not, what I'm saying is that's what King said and did they go? Just because it's written in the press does not make it true.....:coffee:

Obviously if it doesnt fit your agenda. :coffee:;)

jhildebrand
09-07-2010, 11:26 AM
Whats stupid about the move is...why would you even trade up? you were brought in late as the head coach you didnt have the full time to evaluate the draft and you make a bold move like this to trade up!!!??? just sit where your at make your picks till you have the full year before the draft to evaluate talent. I dont care about J. Green being cut that happens all the time. But atleast they shouldve gave smith one more year. Trading that pick for smith was terrible!!! worst move by McDaniels in my opinion.

That's been my opinion all along. Some insist that McD wasn't prepared and was behind the 8 ball going into the draft. If that TRULY was the case, then why make the trade at all? Obviously McD felt like they were prepared and had good information. Which is why the trade was made.

Ravage!!!
09-07-2010, 11:26 AM
Why do you have to put ME into seemingly every response to me? If you
disagree, or you see I am wrong, point it out. I'll listen. But cut the "if it makes
you feel better" shit.

-----

Because I'm responding to YOU.

topscribe
09-07-2010, 11:27 AM
Shanahans drafts dont look as bad as they are made out to be. Foster was a reach, but he still played.

That is absolutely true. By the same token - if you consider McBath, Burton;
and probably Moreno, Ayers, Decker, Cox, Beadles, and Walton; and just
maybe Tebow, DT; and the FA acquisitions of Jamal, Bannan, Orton, Gaffney,
and Lloyd, et al. - McD may come out of the wash just fine, too.

I'm not defending McD - I'm still just a borderline fan of his. Just trying to
maintain a balance here . . .

-----

rcsodak
09-07-2010, 11:28 AM
Some insist on continuing to throw Shanahan under the bus to somehow justify or validate McD's successes/failures. The fact is McD is being grilled much the same as Shanahan. Furthermore, McD deserves the heat for a failure as epic as A Smith and the value given up to get him. He is judged on his merits and his alone. This is HIS team, HIS players, HIS draft picks. The "scheme, players, newness" BS is over with.

LMAO! You act as though posters weren't crying when shanny got fired. Mostly the same posters that gave him excuses for every failed draft pick....and there were a BUNCH OF THEM! I'm just trying to remind the McD haters that he's getting lambasted for his very 1st draft (with little to no advanced scouting), whereas shanny had umpteen and STILL drafted failures-some that never even made it onto the field.
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Northman
09-07-2010, 11:28 AM
That's been my opinion all along. Some insist that McD wasn't prepared and was behind the 8 ball going into the draft. If that TRULY was the case, then why make the trade at all? Obviously McD felt like they were prepared and had good information. Which is why the trade was made.

Because their arguement has been that Joshy had a short list of players they did scout. Be that as it may it would of been safe to say the wise choice would of been to keep the Goodman's for at least a year since they had already been working on the scouting. Joshy was in such a rush to get his guys in that he sacrificed any valuable assets he could of used from the word go.

topscribe
09-07-2010, 11:29 AM
Because I'm responding to YOU.

Yes, Ravage, I understand. That's just your M.O.

Moving right along now . . . :focus:

-----

Northman
09-07-2010, 11:30 AM
LMAO! You act as though posters weren't crying when shanny got fired. Mostly the same posters that gave him excuses for every failed draft pick....and there were a BUNCH OF THEM! I'm just trying to remind the McD haters that he's getting lambasted for his very 1st draft (with little to no advanced scouting), whereas shanny had umpteen and STILL drafted failures-some that never even made it onto the field.
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Go eat a banana monkey boy.

jhildebrand
09-07-2010, 11:32 AM
LMAO! You act as though posters weren't crying when shanny got fired. Mostly the same posters that gave him excuses for every failed draft pick....and there were a BUNCH OF THEM! I'm just trying to remind the McD haters that he's getting lambasted for his very 1st draft (with little to no advanced scouting), whereas shanny had umpteen and STILL drafted failures-some that never even made it onto the field.
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Some were! What's your point? I was happy to see Shanahan go! I was calling for it since he flirted with the Florida job.

However, you continue to insist Shanahan had all these "failures" early on which has been refuted time and again! Funny how you failed to respond to that YET continue to insist there were millions of FAILURES.

Even if there were the failures as you insist, Shanahan still went 13-3 in season two and then back to back Super Bowls to follow that up. So it would be fair to expect the same from McD right even with his failures?....RIGHT?

I mean, even if shitty Shanahan could go 13-3 and then 2 super bowls in 3 seasons then surely the Boy Wizard should be able to do much more.

claymore
09-07-2010, 11:32 AM
That is absolutely true. By the same token - if you consider McBath, Burton;
and probably Moreno, Ayers, Decker, Cox, Beadles, and Walton; and just
maybe Tebow, DT; and the FA acquisitions of Jamal, Bannan, Orton, Gaffney,
and Lloyd, et al. - McD may come out of the wash just fine, too.

I'm not defending McD - I'm still just a borderline fan of his. Just trying to
maintain a balance here . . .

-----

Everyone but Moreno and McBath/Burton are question marks. And only Moreno starts. Ayers is a starter, but he is also another question mark.

FA's are hit and miss. If they were real good they wouldnt be FA's.

Ravage!!!
09-07-2010, 11:32 AM
That's been my opinion all along. Some insist that McD wasn't prepared and was behind the 8 ball going into the draft. If that TRULY was the case, then why make the trade at all? Obviously McD felt like they were prepared and had good information. Which is why the trade was made.

It is funny that those that criticized Shanahan for his draft picks are the ones defending McD for his draft picks BECAUSE of Shanahan's draft picks. :confused: Shouldn't they have the same criticisms for McD as they had for Shanahan?

We heard that McD had this guy 'rated as the second best CB in the draft'... and the "he got the guy he wanted" mantra after the draft. Now we can't criticize that "rating" nor the "wanting the guy" because they are supposed to be ok because others have made mistakes.


I'm not going to feel better about the drafting of Phonz because of cox or some other late round finds....because those would have happened anyway. I will feel better about the Phonz draft choice if some of these other 1st round picks start contributing like 1st round picks. Then we can say that the Phonz pick was just a bad one. If these other first round picks don't start coming around, THEN we'll see a pattern.

Until then... the PHonz pick absolutely has the right to be dumped on for what it is....imo

claymore
09-07-2010, 11:34 AM
Because their arguement has been that Joshy had a short list of players they did scout. Be that as it may it would of been safe to say the wise choice would of been to keep the Goodman's for at least a year since they had already been working on the scouting. Joshy was in such a rush to get his guys in that he sacrificed any valuable assets he could of used from the word go.

More thinking with his donger.

jhildebrand
09-07-2010, 11:34 AM
Because their arguement has been that Joshy had a short list of players they did scout. Be that as it may it would of been safe to say the wise choice would of been to keep the Goodman's for at least a year since they had already been working on the scouting. Joshy was in such a rush to get his guys in that he sacrificed any valuable assets he could of used from the word go.

Which only served to turn up the heat on his personal accountability. McD moved a LOT of people, not just players mind you. This is his team, with his players, with his staff, with his front office. Whatever the results this year, they are his and his alone and he should be judged for that.

Had he kept the Goodman's in place at least he would have that as yet another EXCUSE!

Northman
09-07-2010, 11:35 AM
Some were! What's your point? I was happy to see Shanahan go! I was calling for it since he flirted with the Florida job.

However, you continue to insist Shanahan had all these "failures" early on which has been refuted time and again! Funny how you failed to respond to that YET continue to insist there were millions of FAILURES.

Even if there were the failures as you insist, Shanahan still went 13-3 in season two and then back to back Super Bowls to follow that up. So it would be fair to expect the same from McD right even with his failures?....RIGHT?

I mean, even if shitty Shanahan could go 13-3 and then 2 super bowls in 3 seasons then surely the Boy Wizard should be able to do much more.

Im guessing we are supposed to wait another 10 years of futility before saying anything. :lol:

Ravage!!!
09-07-2010, 11:35 AM
Everyone but Moreno and McBath/Burton are question marks. And only Moreno starts. Ayers is a starter, but he is also another question mark.

FA's are hit and miss. If they were real good they wouldnt be FA's.

I think Moreno is a BIG question mark.

Elevation inc
09-07-2010, 11:36 AM
Wait... how can you say a rookie QB that took them to the AFC Championship has shown to be a failure?????? :confused:

Even Matt Ryan had a big-time sophmore slump, and he's a very good QB.


no no no bro sanchez had zero to do with the jets succes last year, they were 9-7 and backed there way in. he was horrible all year looked okay in the playoffs, and has looked worse than quinn this pre-season.....they were 9-7 last year becasue they had 2 1000 yd rushers, and a top scoring defense......there passing offense was atrocious, and even with more weapons i would rather have brandstater starting than sanchez....he was horrible....period...end...dot....period...end...d ot!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:lol:

jhildebrand
09-07-2010, 11:36 AM
Until then... the PHonz pick absolutely has the right to be dumped on for what it is....imo

It is getting its just due. McD has had other perceived failures here that fans have ranted about on the boards and the media all but ignored them. This is getting its just due from even MAJOR McD press nuts like King as it well should for the very reasons you pointed out.

wbmustang
09-07-2010, 11:36 AM
I haven't even read this thread and it is Lol. You don't always hit a homerun with your draft picks. Yes it sucks what we gave up but it is what it is. Draft picks are so crazy you don't know who will do what. Mike Williams looked like he was going to wreck the league and the he started wrecking buffets. Yes he may do alright in Seattle but as of now he is still kind of a bust. Look @ Leinart he was drafted high as well. Draft picks are draft picks not proven until seen otherwise. I mean what happened if the Portland Trailblazers drafted Jordan instead of Sam Bowie. The world will never know. Bottom line it's a long post to say sometimes you hit with personnel moves and sometimes you miss. You just need to make sure you hit more than you miss.

claymore
09-07-2010, 11:37 AM
I think Moreno is a BIG question mark.

He has been the best pick BY FAR out of the 8 first day picks. I think he will have a worse year this year. But He is my favorite of the 8.

Elevation inc
09-07-2010, 11:37 AM
Everyone but Moreno and McBath/Burton are question marks. And only Moreno starts. Ayers is a starter, but he is also another question mark.

FA's are hit and miss. If they were real good they wouldnt be FA's.


fair enough:beer:

arapaho2
09-07-2010, 11:38 AM
LMAO! You act as though posters weren't crying when shanny got fired. Mostly the same posters that gave him excuses for every failed draft pick....and there were a BUNCH OF THEM! I'm just trying to remind the McD haters that he's getting lambasted for his very 1st draft (with little to no advanced scouting), whereas shanny had umpteen and STILL drafted failures-some that never even made it onto the field.
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so its acceptable then for a coach with no time and little scouting....TO TRADE A 14TH OVERALL PICK STRAIGHT UP FOR A 37TH....then use his lack of adequat scouting as a excuse for the dismall failure


....but as a rookie head coach, with supossedly little time evauluating the draft talent...i would reluctant to trade
next years 1st round pick straight up for a current 37th pick to pick a cb that the major draft evaluators had slotted in the late second or 3rd because of his height and speed

with no scouting....why do that?...why risk it on a player you didnt scout?

Northman
09-07-2010, 11:38 AM
I mean what happened if the Portland Trailblazers drafted Jordan instead of Sam Bowie. The world will never know.

I would of been a happy Blazer fan. But ironically, i still wait for that kind of success.

jhildebrand
09-07-2010, 11:38 AM
Im guessing we are supposed to wait another 10 years of futility before saying anything. :lol:

I just want RC to answer the question. Is it fair to expect McD to go 13-3 this year, win the division, host a playoff game, etc...since Shanahan did that in year 2. I mean obviously comparing the two is such a great analysis :rolleyes:

If McD doesn't go 13-3 this year, then WHAT WILL BE THE EXCUSE?

EDIT: Also, this is a MUCH WEAKER AFCW

Ravage!!!
09-07-2010, 11:42 AM
with no scouting....why do that?...why risk it on a player you didnt scout?

They did scout. They said they had him rated as the second best CB in the draft and rated as a 1st round pick. Thus they moved up to "get their guy" because that was one of the very few they had on their board that they liked, wanted, and scouted.

He was raved on for moving up and "getting the guy he wanted" rather than holding back and taking someone else.

Northman
09-07-2010, 11:44 AM
They did scout. They said they had him rated as the second best CB in the draft and rated as a 1st round pick. Thus they moved up to "get their guy" because that was one of the very few they had on their board that they liked, wanted, and scouted.

He was raved on for moving up and "getting the guy he wanted" rather than holding back and taking someone else.

I think they got confused. Should of taken Sean Smith. :lol:

Tned
09-07-2010, 11:48 AM
Wow, what a thread. It will soon rival the recent Cutler thread debacle.

In summary, Plummer has moved on, his fans should to...

arapaho2
09-07-2010, 11:49 AM
They did scout. They said they had him rated as the second best CB in the draft and rated as a 1st round pick. Thus they moved up to "get their guy" because that was one of the very few they had on their board that they liked, wanted, and scouted.

He was raved on for moving up and "getting the guy he wanted" rather than holding back and taking someone else.

i know...thats what was said last year when some questioned the move...josh got the cb he wanted...he knew what he wanted and made moves to
get him

now when its a failure its.." he didnt have time to fully scout the draft"

the same was said this year with the tebow and thomas picks...he traded up to get the players he wanted....i just wonder if either or both dont work out if the excuse will be the same?

Ravage!!!
09-07-2010, 11:51 AM
Wow, what a thread. It will soon rival the recent Cutler thread debacle.

In summary, Plummer has moved on, his fans should to...

*watches all the worms squirming on the floor from the opened can*

topscribe
09-07-2010, 11:52 AM
Everyone but Moreno and McBath/Burton are question marks. And only Moreno starts. Ayers is a starter, but he is also another question mark.

FA's are hit and miss. If they were real good they wouldnt be FA's.

Okay, so it's too soon to judge, right?

So what, then, is the debate?

-----

broncofaninfla
09-07-2010, 11:54 AM
Both Xanders and Mcd are learing their trades at the expense of this orginization. With bone head draft moves and free agent signings I can't help but think they lack the eye to spot talent. Add to that the failure to address upgrading the RB's after a pathetic showing in 09 and I can't say I have a lot of faith in the Broncos brass right now.

claymore
09-07-2010, 11:54 AM
Okay, so it's too soon to judge, right?

So what, then, is the debate?

-----

I think its to soon to judge. I buy into the 3 year rule. But I think out of 5 1st round picks, and 3 second round picks we should have more than 2 starters.

Elevation inc
09-07-2010, 11:55 AM
I think they got confused. Should of taken Sean Smith. :lol:

:salute:i would have prefered sean smith much more or just waiting for j. byrd, but i do think we scored with mcbath/bruton so at least we got our safety depth right.....lol

claymore
09-07-2010, 11:55 AM
Both Xanders and Mcd are learing their trades at the expense of this orginization. With bone head draft moves and free agent signings I can't help but think they lack the eye to spot talent. Add to that the failure to address upgrading the RB's after a pathetic showing in 09 and I can't say I have a lot of faith in the Broncos brass right now.

Xanders is McD's Sundquist.

Tned
09-07-2010, 11:55 AM
*watches all the worms squirming on the floor from the opened can*

Hey, I didn't open it, it was opened about two pages ago by a Plummer fan. Most of the Cutler/Shanahan bashing we have to deal with now, is directly tied to Plummer being benched for Cutler.

I just often wonder how long it will take for that wound to heal and for everyone to get the Delorean up to speed and get back to the future and focus on this team, not the '06 team.

Hey, but what can I say, I'm a forward looking dreamer.

LRtagger
09-07-2010, 11:55 AM
And i would argue that those teams would of STILL tried to get compensation for them. Whether or not they were able to is a different story.

So, what you are saying is Smith holds more value than those two players...or that McDaniels/Xanders was able to get compensation where those GMs/Coaches were not? :D

rcsodak
09-07-2010, 11:59 AM
Well then, let's be fair. Shanahan also took over an 16-16 team and promptly went 8-8. McD took over an 8-8 team and went 8-8.

The difference was in year 2. Shanahan even with his "failures" (as you put it) went 13-3. So should we expect as much from McD? Oh by the way, Shanahan via Bob Ferguson found guys like TD in the 6th and McD has Moreno in the first.

I mean they are obviously apples to apples right :rolleyes:
2 points.
1. Ironic isnt it how shanny started out by taking a ,500 team and after 14, left a .500 team.

2. Still trying to wrap my head around that "16-16" team.......
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topscribe
09-07-2010, 12:00 PM
I think its to soon to judge. I buy into the 3 year rule. But I think out of 5 1st round picks, and 3 second round picks we should have more than 2 starters.

Well, so far, we have Ayers, maybe Moss, Walton, Beadles, and Moreno. Cox
has proven that he possibly could start, but he has someone by the name of
Champ Bailey in front of him. Same issue with McBath and Burton. Decker may
soon yank the job from somebody if he keeps his shenanigans up. Moreno will
start, once he's healthy again. DT looked like a man among boys out there, from
some of the reports I read from camp.

I didn't mention Tebow because I see he's still third string on the depth chart.
Siding with you, I would expect more of a first-round QB.

But, all in all, I don't see a big problem with the talent acquisition . . . yet.

-----

Tned
09-07-2010, 12:01 PM
So, what you are saying is Smith holds more value than those two players...or that McDaniels/Xanders was able to get compensation where those GMs/Coaches were not? :D

No, probably just that those other teams weren't trying to fill a hole left by trading up to draft a blocking TE, that doesn't seem to be able to block, and trading away your pass catching TE, and then winding up with an Uh Oh moment when your starting TE gets hurt.

rcsodak
09-07-2010, 12:04 PM
It only took McD 2 years to equal 14 years worth of Draft flops. Is that your point?
hahaha....nice try, clay....but I'm not sure ANY HC/GM will ever equal shanny's poor drafting record. Hell, it doesn't look like he's improved any either, by the looks of it. Lol
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topscribe
09-07-2010, 12:04 PM
No, probably just that those other teams weren't trying to fill a hole left by trading up to draft a blocking TE, that doesn't seem to be able to block, and trading away your pass catching TE, and then winding up with an Uh Oh moment when your starting TE gets hurt.

To a team who owns the TE we traded away, who beat out the one we're
getting back, in the same capacity as the one we traded away. :confused:

What a deal!

-----

Tned
09-07-2010, 12:04 PM
2 points.
1. Ironic isnt it how shanny started out by taking a ,500 team and after 14, left a .500 team.

2. Still trying to wrap my head around that "16-16" team.......
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1. Not sure what's ironic about leaving with at .500 team. If he had a .750 team he wouldn't have been fired. Further, you might have come across the concept of NFL teams going through up and down cycles. In doing so, I'm sure you also realize that there are few, if any, teams during Shanahan's tenure as coach of the Broncos that had fewer losing seasons than the Broncos.

2. Are you really struggling to understand the concept of a team going 16-16 over a two year stretch? You felling ok, buddy?

Tned
09-07-2010, 12:06 PM
To a team who owns the TE we traded away, who beat out the one we're
getting back, in the same capacity as the one we traded away. :confused:

What a deal!

-----

Yep, falls into that "things that make you go hmmmm" category (credit given to Arsenio Hall).

I Eat Staples
09-07-2010, 12:07 PM
I disagree. I dont think he is a good offensive coordinator either.

He helped the Patriots become a great offense, but his failure to adjust his gameplan lost them the superbowl to the Giants. He's a good OC, not a great one. And his ego always gets in the way of his brain.

Tned
09-07-2010, 12:07 PM
hahaha....nice try, clay....but I'm not sure ANY HC/GM will ever equal shanny's poor drafting record. Hell, it doesn't look like he's improved any either, by the looks of it. Lol
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Doesn't Shanahan get credit for signing Plummer as a free agent? :confused:

:coffee:

topscribe
09-07-2010, 12:11 PM
Doesn't Shanahan get credit for signing Plummer as a free agent? :confused:

:coffee:

I'll have to admit: three straight playoff years.

And here, four years later, we're looking for one straight playoff year.

I don't know what that proves, but it did just now hit me pretty hard . . . :tsk:

-----

rcsodak
09-07-2010, 12:12 PM
Its not even logical Top. No coach is going to take a gamble on a 1st and 2nd rounder and just dump them without even seeing if he can find a chump to trade for said player. As Rav pointed out, Detroit felt like Smith was a risk worth taking but for us its clearly just take what you can and get out dodge.
What did the 1handed wonder, Watts, get in return? Nash? Toviosi? On my dumbphone, otherwise I'm sure I could find more.
I'm far from being a shanny hater. I was in his court when posters were calling for his head 3-4yrs ago. In fact, i called out the people that said they'd gladly accept some lean years in the wins column. I'm not so sure they're not the same ones complaining the loudest now. :coffee:
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Tned
09-07-2010, 12:13 PM
I'll have to admit: three straight playoff years.

And here, four years later, we're looking for one straight playoff year.

I don't know what that proves, but it did just now hit me pretty hard . . . :tsk:

-----

Come on Top, they just won with smoke and mirrors to mask the piss-poor Plummer performances (how the heck was that for alliteration? :D).

Ravage!!!
09-07-2010, 12:15 PM
2 points.
1. Ironic isnt it how shanny started out by taking a ,500 team and after 14, left a .500 team.

2. Still trying to wrap my head around that "16-16" team.......
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1) thats not irony

Tned
09-07-2010, 12:16 PM
What did the 1handed wonder, Watts, get in return? Nash? Toviosi? On my dumbphone, otherwise I'm sure I could find more.
I'm far from being a shanny hater. I was in his court when posters were calling for his head 3-4yrs ago. In fact, i called out the people that said they'd gladly accept some lean years in the wins column. I'm not so sure they're not the same ones complaining the loudest now. :coffee:
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Out of curiosity, when exactly, did you leave Shanahan's court?

Ravage!!!
09-07-2010, 12:17 PM
To a team who owns the TE we traded away, who beat out the one we're
getting back, in the same capacity as the one we traded away. :confused:

What a deal!

-----

Now see, rc, THAT is irony!

pnbronco
09-07-2010, 12:20 PM
Doesn't Shanahan get credit for signing Plummer as a free agent? :confused:

:coffee:


You bet he does. Just like I give him credit for all the great drafts he brought to Denver, Pryce, TD, Al. He also brought out the best in John and I'm soooo grateful for that.

(Now if you hate Plummer then it must of been Ted that brought him in...;))

Top I think I'm with you, it's been awhile since we have been in the playoffs and I miss that too. But I still remember the year that poor guy was on the billboard until the Broncos won a game and he was up there a long time...:shocked:

Ravage!!!
09-07-2010, 12:21 PM
What did the 1handed wonder, Watts, get in return? Nash? Toviosi? On my dumbphone, otherwise I'm sure I could find more.
I'm far from being a shanny hater. I was in his court when posters were calling for his head 3-4yrs ago. In fact, i called out the people that said they'd gladly accept some lean years in the wins column. I'm not so sure they're not the same ones complaining the loudest now. :coffee:
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I"m a bit confused by your point. What does not getting a Trade for Watts and Nash have anything to do with finding a team that is willing to trade away a 7th round TE they were going to drop anyway??? Somehow this defense is supposed to make any situation 'better' looking? More appealing? More acceptable? How far apart, in years, from then to now? How, in ANY way, are these 2-3-4 incidences remotely connected? Did we trade away a next year's 1st round pick for a second round pick and take any of those players? DId we cut them all after just one season?

jhildebrand
09-07-2010, 12:24 PM
2 points.
1. Ironic isnt it how shanny started out by taking a ,500 team and after 14, left a .500 team.

2. Still trying to wrap my head around that "16-16" team.......
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1. If he didn't have a .500 team for multiple seasons, he would still be here. Not sure how that is ironic or hard to comprehend.

2. What is so hard to understand that a 9-7 team one season and 7-9 the next is 16-16 or .500 the same that McD took over a .500 team? :confused:

Try to keep up.

I still want to know if we should be expecting a 13-3 season from McD?

rcsodak
09-07-2010, 12:25 PM
Take a deep breath. I wasn't attacking you, but you are pulling this "quit attacking me" thing you do again for no reason.

I was actually pointing out that Clay was exaggerating with his response to rc, and probably BECAUSE it was rc.
Not Everybody does that when responding to me. :coffee:
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rcsodak
09-07-2010, 12:30 PM
Go eat a banana monkey boy.
......reported....


I'm rubber you're glue......
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T.K.O.
09-07-2010, 12:34 PM
hey, i'm just happy we found thompson and cox at the spots we did !
improving talent and competition at every position is how you build a good team folks !
don't worry.......be happy !:D:beer:

topscribe
09-07-2010, 12:35 PM
Come on Top, they just won with smoke and mirrors to mask the piss-poor Plummer performances (how the heck was that for alliteration? :D).

Keep working at it, T. You'll eventually learn how to do it . . . :D

-----

rcsodak
09-07-2010, 12:39 PM
Some were! What's your point? I was happy to see Shanahan go! I was calling for it since he flirted with the Florida job.

However, you continue to insist Shanahan had all these "failures" early on which has been refuted time and again! Funny how you failed to respond to that YET continue to insist there were millions of FAILURES.

Even if there were the failures as you insist, Shanahan still went 13-3 in season two and then back to back Super Bowls to follow that up. So it would be fair to expect the same from McD right even with his failures?....RIGHT?

I mean, even if shitty Shanahan could go 13-3 and then 2 super bowls in 3 seasons then surely the Boy Wizard should be able to do much more.
See, thats where you're wrong. He was failing up until he was canned. Not just "early on". And again, I was pro-shanny til the end. My posts are out there if you dont believe me. Does McD have aHoF QB? Did shanny have to rebuild his D upon his arrival? No.
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Tned
09-07-2010, 12:42 PM
Keep working at it, T. You'll eventually learn how to do it . . . :D

-----


The big, bad Broncos betrayed belief by beating Baltimore's best....

LRtagger
09-07-2010, 12:45 PM
No, probably just that those other teams weren't trying to fill a hole left by trading up to draft a blocking TE, that doesn't seem to be able to block, and trading away your pass catching TE, and then winding up with an Uh Oh moment when your starting TE gets hurt.

Yea you're right. Tampa Bay and Miami have all positions shored up and have the luxury of dumping second round picks after one season without getting any sort of value for them. What was I thinking? As if Denver is the only team in the NFL with holes to fill.

If those teams could have flipped those players that failed in their organization (even for a 7th round pick) they would have. There's no "probably" about it.

We were fortunate enough to have a lot of young talented CBs this offseason...the only unfortunate thing was the worst one of the bunch happened to be the one we spent the most to get. I'm not denying the pick was a mistake...obviously IT WAS.

BTW who said Quinn doesn't seem to be able to block? That is news to me.

Ravage!!!
09-07-2010, 12:47 PM
Did shanny have to rebuild his D upon his arrival? No.
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John Mobley, Bill Romanowksi, Alfred Williams, Glenn Cadrez, Crocket, Neil Smith, Keith Traylor (actually bringing him back after he left in 93), Trevor Price, Mike Lodish, Darien Gorden, Micheal Dean Perry, Maa Tanuvasa,

Just to name a few that were brought in between '95 and '97. So I would say "yes"

jhildebrand
09-07-2010, 12:47 PM
See, thats where you're wrong. He was failing up until he was canned. Not just "early on". And again, I was pro-shanny til the end. My posts are out there if you dont believe me. Does McD have aHoF QB? Did shanny have to rebuild his D upon his arrival? No.
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I'm wrong? :confused:

Ok, I will take this apart for you. Apparently you think that because you type something it makes it true.

Shanahan took over a team that allowed 396 points the season before ranked 25th in the league. If that doesn't involve retooling the D I don't know what does.

Everybody keeps insisting Shanahan took over with a HOF QB. Why do you suppose that was? Shanahan made Elway successful as a OC and even more so as a coach. Afterall, if it was all due to Elway, how come Reeves nor Phillips won a Super Bowl because of Elway? Furthermore, Phillips couldn't simply make the playoffs by having a HOF'er on the roster. Elway is where he is in LARGE part to Shanahan.

Shanahan re-tooled the O with guys like Tony Jones, TD, Rod Smith, Eddie Mac. He retooled the D as well. I think I can recall the Michael Dean Perry saga vivdly. How did Al Williams and Neal Smith end up here?

Special Teams? He took care of that too with a guy named Darien Gordon.

Finally, you insist he failed early, often, and throughout his tenure. Yet people have pointed out the holes in that "theory" of yours. Yet you fail to respond. Shanahan drafted Al Wilson possibly the best LB this team has had, Trevor Pryce, Regiie Heyward, Bert Berry, Ryan Clady, and more. I wouldn't call that a failure!

Finally, quit ducking the question, smalls! If Shanahan was such a failure as you point out, can we at least expect McD to go 13-3 this year and a minimum of back to back SB's the next two years since comparing them, in your mind, seems to be so appropriate? ANSWER IT!!!

arapaho2
09-07-2010, 12:49 PM
See, thats where you're wrong. He was failing up until he was canned. Not just "early on". And again, I was pro-shanny til the end. My posts are out there if you dont believe me. Does McD have aHoF QB? Did shanny have to rebuild his D upon his arrival? No.
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the broncos defense was 19th overall in 94

25th in scoreing

17th in rushing...hardly a powerhouse

jhildebrand
09-07-2010, 12:51 PM
If Ayers could be half of what Heyward was early on I would be happy.

If Moreno could get a 100 yard game I would be happy.

Oh by the way, Shanahan sucked drafting Dumervil as well :lol: That was a failure of monumental proportions.

jhildebrand
09-07-2010, 12:54 PM
Shanahan got a pass early on and for a long while because he hit on everythhing early on. Success buys you the benefit of the doubt.

McDaniels has yet to really hit on anything! Sure he has some nice pick ups and his FA classes are pretty good. But until his picks show something big (Cox and Decker will IMO) he will get the heat and deserve it.

There is a reason they say: "Winning cures everything!"

Tned
09-07-2010, 12:56 PM
Yea you're right. Tampa Bay and Miami have all positions shored up and have the luxury of dumping second round picks after one season without getting any sort of value for them. What was I thinking? As if Denver is the only team in the NFL with holes to fill.

If those teams could have flipped those players that failed in their organization (even for a 7th round pick) they would have. There's no "probably" about it.

We were fortunate enough to have a lot of young talented CBs this offseason...the only unfortunate thing was the worst one of the bunch happened to be the one we spent the most to get. I'm not denying the pick was a mistake...obviously IT WAS.

BTW who said Quinn doesn't seem to be able to block? That is news to me.

Let me attempt to wade through your river of dripping sarcasm, so I can find a dry spot so my laptop doesn't short out while I type my reply.

Here we go.

The point I was trying to make was that the other teams might not have been willing to, or wanted to, burn a roster spot on a 7th round player another team was about to release. The Broncos had to do so, because they had a hole to fill, since with Graham hurt they didn't have the confidence to go into the season with just Quinn (who is now behind the player Detroit was going to cut on the depth chart).

I applaud McDaniels for getting something out of the Smith debacle. It was a big **** up to trade a first to get him, but at least he was willing to move on.

As to Quinn, see my comment about the depth chart.

rcsodak
09-07-2010, 12:56 PM
He has been the best pick BY FAR out of the 8 first day picks. I think he will have a worse year this year. But He is my favorite of the 8.
McD has NOT had "8 first day picks".
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Elevation inc
09-07-2010, 12:58 PM
McD has NOT had "8 first day picks".
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:confused: where have i been then...unless your counting the new draft process with rd 1 being separate from rd 2 on different days.....


oh wait you sly one:tsk:.....:lol:

rcsodak
09-07-2010, 01:05 PM
so its acceptable then for a coach with no time and little scouting....TO TRADE A 14TH OVERALL PICK STRAIGHT UP FOR A 37TH....then use his lack of adequat scouting as a excuse for the dismall failure


....but as a rookie head coach, with supossedly little time evauluating the draft talent...i would reluctant to trade
next years 1st round pick straight up for a current 37th pick to pick a cb that the major draft evaluators had slotted in the late second or 3rd because of his height and speed

with no scouting....why do that?...why risk it on a player you didnt scout?
Don't think I said it was "OK". But evidently he felt he needed to grab him because of the lack of cb's on the roster. And thats what seattle demanded for it......DOUBT McD said I"ll give you.... And I've YET heard him using excuses. Posters bring it up as a fact....take it as you will.
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claymore
09-07-2010, 01:09 PM
McD has NOT had "8 first day picks".
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:confused: where have i been then...unless your counting the new draft process with rd 1 being separate from rd 2 on different days.....


oh wait you sly one:tsk:.....:lol:

I forgot they changed the draft format. Zane Beadles was taken in the second day. So 7 first day picks in 2 years.

We burned 5 first round picks and 3 second round picks. 1-2 starters. McD is a Draft genius.

rcsodak
09-07-2010, 01:14 PM
I just want RC to answer the question. Is it fair to expect McD to go 13-3 this year, win the division, host a playoff game, etc...since Shanahan did that in year 2. I mean obviously comparing the two is such a great analysis :rolleyes:

If McD doesn't go 13-3 this year, then WHAT WILL BE THE EXCUSE?

EDIT: Also, this is a MUCH WEAKER AFCW
I certainly hope not......

.....as I'm not sure I can survive the multiple blow-out SB losses again.
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Northman
09-07-2010, 01:14 PM
So, what you are saying is Smith holds more value than those two players...or that McDaniels/Xanders was able to get compensation where those GMs/Coaches were not? :D

Not really. I think Detriot was severely desperate and have been for quite some time and needed a DB. A team like Bmore could probably get away with it because they are more playoff ready than Detroit is. Bottom line, if McD didnt even try to get any compensation it would of been a moronic move on his part. I said it in another thread, Smith was basically a turd that we shined up to basically swap with the turds on the Lions. :D

Ravage!!!
09-07-2010, 01:15 PM
I certainly hope not......

.....as I'm not sure I can survive the multiple blow-out SB losses again.
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Yeah..those are terrible...... making it to the Super Bowl and all. Hate it when that happens.

rcsodak
09-07-2010, 01:27 PM
1. Not sure what's ironic about leaving with at .500 team. If he had a .750 team he wouldn't have been fired. Further, you might have come across the concept of NFL teams going through up and down cycles. In doing so, I'm sure you also realize that there are few, if any, teams during Shanahan's tenure as coach of the Broncos that had fewer losing seasons than the Broncos.

2. Are you really struggling to understand the concept of a team going 16-16 over a two year stretch? You felling ok, buddy?
"felling" fine. Just didnt see where the poster said 16-16 "over a 2yr period". And I"m well aware of the "cycles" and shannys record. Pretty sure those were my same arguments for KEEPING him save his floundering at .500. But thank you for reiterating them.
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rcsodak
09-07-2010, 01:29 PM
Doesn't Shanahan get credit for signing Plummer as a free agent? :confused:

:coffee:
Stalker alert!!


:backontopic:
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Tned
09-07-2010, 01:31 PM
"felling" fine. Just didnt see where the poster said 16-16 "over a 2yr period". And I"m well aware of the "cycles" and shannys record. Pretty sure those were my same arguments for KEEPING him save his floundering at .500. But thank you for reiterating them.
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If you didn't grasp that 16-16 implicitly referred to two seasons, I really don't know what to say.


Stalker alert!!


:backontopic:
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That's a serious allegation, that you have made twice. Unless you're prepared to back it up with a police report, shut the **** up.

LRtagger
09-07-2010, 01:33 PM
Let me attempt to wade through your river of dripping sarcasm, so I can find a dry spot so my laptop doesn't short out while I type my reply.

Here we go.

The point I was trying to make was that the other teams might not have been willing to, or wanted to, burn a roster spot on a 7th round player another team was about to release. The Broncos had to do so, because they had a hole to fill, since with Graham hurt they didn't have the confidence to go into the season with just Quinn (who is now behind the player Detroit was going to cut on the depth chart).

I applaud McDaniels for getting something out of the Smith debacle. It was a big **** up to trade a first to get him, but at least he was willing to move on.

As to Quinn, see my comment about the depth chart.

You mean the same depth chart that has Brady ahead of Tebow even though Tebow has clearly outplayed him this offseason? And the one that has Nate Jones ahead of Squid even though Squid has outplayed him?

I wouldn't make much out of the depth chart...especially for that position. It certainly doesnt mean Quinn can't block. I would think if you have a TE that will play as a situational pass catcher, it wouldnt really matter where you have him on the depth chart.

With Harris out and Clady not 100%, I would assume we will see a good dose of Dick this weekend.

Ravage!!!
09-07-2010, 01:36 PM
I would assume we will see a good dose of Dick this weekend.

Thats what she said!! Badda Bing!!

jhildebrand
09-07-2010, 01:36 PM
"felling" fine. Just didnt see where the poster said 16-16 "over a 2yr period". And I"m well aware of the "cycles" and shannys record. Pretty sure those were my same arguments for KEEPING him save his floundering at .500. But thank you for reiterating them.
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Some mighty fine back pedaling you display.

Tned
09-07-2010, 01:37 PM
You mean the same depth chart that has Brady ahead of Tebow even though Tebow has clearly outplayed him this offseason? And the one that has Nate Jones ahead of Squid even though Squid has outplayed him?

I wouldn't make much out of the depth chart...especially for that position. It certainly doesnt mean Quinn can't block. I would think if you have a TE that will play as a situational pass catcher, it wouldnt really matter where you have him on the depth chart.

With Harris out and Clady not 100%, I would assume we will see a good dose of Dick this weekend.

I hope we do get a chance to see Quinn and figure out what we have in him. I hope he looks like he belongs first on the depth chart.

rcsodak
09-07-2010, 01:38 PM
Out of curiosity, when exactly, did you leave Shanahan's court?
Who says I have? There has to be some semblence of balance on the boards, tho. If posters are going to lambast McD before he's had a chance grow into the position then I'm going to bring up the 'cool side of the pillow', with the trials/tribulations of 'his predecessor'. Thought it was pretty obvious, even to you, BUDDY. ;-)
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jhildebrand
09-07-2010, 01:40 PM
Who says I have? There has to be some semblence of balance on the boards, tho. If posters are going to lambast McD before he's had a chance grow into the position then I'm going to bring up the 'cool side of the pillow', with the trials/tribulations of 'his predecessor'. Thought it was pretty obvious, even to you, BUDDY. ;-)
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Youre doing a piss poor job of accomplishing that. Kind of hard to fault a guy who took a 7-9 team to 13-3 in two seasons and back to back chamos in 4.

Edit: "I was" implies you no longer are. English a second language?

rcsodak
09-07-2010, 01:42 PM
Now see, rc, THAT is irony!
Irony=Rav instructing the use of the word "irony".


: )
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Northman
09-07-2010, 01:46 PM
If you didn't grasp that 16-16 implicitly referred to two seasons, I really don't know what to say.



That's a serious allegation, that you have made twice. Unless you're prepared to back it up with a police report, shut the **** up.

Oh snap.

claymore
09-07-2010, 01:47 PM
Who says I have? There has to be some semblence of balance on the boards, tho. If posters are going to lambast McD before he's had a chance grow into the position then I'm going to bring up the 'cool side of the pillow', with the trials/tribulations of 'his predecessor'. Thought it was pretty obvious, even to you, BUDDY. ;-)
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Wait till McD does something well then Harp on that.

Northman
09-07-2010, 01:49 PM
Wait till McD does something well then Harp on that.

:lol:

/thread

Ravage!!!
09-07-2010, 01:50 PM
Who says I have? There has to be some semblence of balance on the boards, tho. If posters are going to lambast McD before he's had a chance grow into the position then I'm going to bring up the 'cool side of the pillow', with the trials/tribulations of 'his predecessor'. Thought it was pretty obvious, even to you, BUDDY. ;-)
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Yeah.. if there is one thing everyone knows about you, RC, is that you are the epitome of balance

rcsodak
09-07-2010, 01:50 PM
I"m a bit confused by your point. What does not getting a Trade for Watts and Nash have anything to do with finding a team that is willing to trade away a 7th round TE they were going to drop anyway??? Somehow this defense is supposed to make any situation 'better' looking? More appealing? More acceptable? How far apart, in years, from then to now? How, in ANY way, are these 2-3-4 incidences remotely connected? Did we trade away a next year's 1st round pick for a second round pick and take any of those players? DId we cut them all after just one season?
wow...maybe my name should be in the thread title.
A poster made a point of getting trash for a high pick. I asked what McD's predecessor got for the aforementioned 1's/2's. I truly hope I've answered that question......again. :salute:
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Ravage!!!
09-07-2010, 01:53 PM
wow...maybe my name should be in the thread title.
A poster made a point of getting trash for a high pick. I asked what McD's predecessor got for the aforementioned 1's/2's. I truly hope I've answered that question......again. :salute:
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No. You haven't explained how they are related. You simply pointed out that one circumstance is different than another, and tried to make the two related. I'm asking you how they are related. Or are you just doing your best to bring up any random number of "similar" situations so that you can try to make it appear as if they are the same?

rcsodak
09-07-2010, 02:14 PM
If you didn't grasp that 16-16 implicitly referred to two seasons, I really don't know what to say.



That's a serious allegation, that you have made twice. Unless you're prepared to back it up with a police report, shut the **** up.
ok, so McD took over a 24-24 team with no defense. Seems to me it'll take longer to rectify a team mired in such mediocrity than what his predecessor had to.
As for telling me to **** off over an innocent post......guess next time I'll use the emoticon. (there is one, right?) *scratches head*
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rcsodak
09-07-2010, 02:19 PM
Some mighty fine back pedaling you display.
where
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Tned
09-07-2010, 02:21 PM
ok, so McD took over a 24-24 team with no defense. Seems to me it'll take longer to rectify a team mired in such mediocrity than what his predecessor had to.
As for telling me to **** off over an innocent post......guess next time I'll use the emoticon. (there is one, right?) *scratches head*
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I didn't tell you to **** off. Might want to re-read the post to make sure you didn't misread anything else.

However, based on this response, I now know, and the mods know, that you read my post and are on notice regarding your stalker comments.

rcsodak
09-07-2010, 03:03 PM
Youre doing a piss poor job of accomplishing that. Kind of hard to fault a guy who took a 7-9 team to 13-3 in two seasons and back to back chamos in 4.

Edit: "I was" implies you no longer are. English a second language?
I was under the impression you were perfect.
Plus, and I'm sure Top could verify this, I don't think it's proper to mix using numerals and spelling them out as you did. But what do I know.....I can't even use "irony" correctly. :coffee:
[/off topic]
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rcsodak
09-07-2010, 03:06 PM
Wait till McD does something well then Harp on that.
You first. :wink: lol
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Ravage!!!
09-07-2010, 03:07 PM
You first. :wink: lol
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I'm pretty sure he's still waiting

Tempus Fugit
09-07-2010, 03:31 PM
Sort of a pointless blurb by King. Then again, he does that a lot in the offseason.

GEM
09-07-2010, 05:08 PM
Would all you nuthugging, Mikey loving, McD loving, sons of bitches grow the **** up and act your ******* age. I don't have to deal with the shit some of you force me to put up with from a group of kids in my house ages 9,12, 14 and 15. I love being a mod and I usually enjoy my job because it used to be fun. Now it is exactly what I just called it....a job. Why? Because some of you petulant children seem to have forgotten that you aren't children anymore. Some of you have forgotten what the **** manners are. Some of you have forgotten how to be pleasant sons of bitches.

A few of the threads around here have gotten to the point of just a freaking pissing match between 2 sides where no one is right or wrong and it's all just opinions that some feel they need to fight to the death. ******* ridiculous.

Northman
09-07-2010, 05:11 PM
Would all you nuthugging, Mikey loving, McD loving, sons of bitches grow the **** up and act your ******* age. I don't have to deal with the shit some of you force me to put up with from a group of kids in my house ages 9,12, 14 and 15. I love being a mod and I usually enjoy my job because it used to be fun. Now it is exactly what I just called it....a job. Why? Because some of you petulant children seem to have forgotten that you aren't children anymore. Some of you have forgotten what the **** manners are. Some of you have forgotten how to be pleasant sons of bitches.

A few of the threads around here have gotten to the point of just a freaking pissing match between 2 sides where no one is right or wrong and it's all just opinions that some feel they need to fight to the death. ******* ridiculous.

Maybe if you showed us a little skin (you know what i want baby) we might settle down. Babies need milk from the tap. :coffee:

topscribe
09-07-2010, 05:12 PM
Would all you nuthugging, Mikey loving, McD loving, sons of bitches grow the **** up and act your ******* age. I don't have to deal with the shit some of you force me to put up with from a group of kids in my house ages 9,12, 14 and 15. I love being a mod and I usually enjoy my job because it used to be fun. Now it is exactly what I just called it....a job. Why? Because some of you petulant children seem to have forgotten that you aren't children anymore. Some of you have forgotten what the **** manners are. Some of you have forgotten how to be pleasant sons of bitches.

A few of the threads around here have gotten to the point of just a freaking pissing match between 2 sides where no one is right or wrong and it's all just opinions that some feel they need to fight to the death. ******* ridiculous.

GEM, are you ever going to get to the point where you can speak your mind?

-----

GEM
09-07-2010, 05:13 PM
GEM, are you ever going to get to the point where you can speak your mind?

-----

:laugh: Lord have mercy on all of your souls if I do. :laugh:

jhildebrand
09-07-2010, 05:18 PM
Would all you nuthugging, Mikey loving, McD loving, sons of bitches grow the **** up and act your ******* age. I don't have to deal with the shit some of you force me to put up with from a group of kids in my house ages 9,12, 14 and 15. I love being a mod and I usually enjoy my job because it used to be fun. Now it is exactly what I just called it....a job. Why? Because some of you petulant children seem to have forgotten that you aren't children anymore. Some of you have forgotten what the **** manners are. Some of you have forgotten how to be pleasant sons of bitches.

A few of the threads around here have gotten to the point of just a freaking pissing match between 2 sides where no one is right or wrong and it's all just opinions that some feel they need to fight to the death. ******* ridiculous.

I'm guessing you don't want to hear who started it? :confused:


:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

GEM
09-07-2010, 05:20 PM
I'm guessing you don't want to hear who started it? :confused:


:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Watch it Hildy....Mastershake attached a light saber to my ban hammer and I am dying to try it out!! :mad:

Tned
09-07-2010, 05:24 PM
Would all you nuthugging, Mikey loving, McD loving, sons of bitches grow the **** up and act your ******* age. I don't have to deal with the shit some of you force me to put up with from a group of kids in my house ages 9,12, 14 and 15. I love being a mod and I usually enjoy my job because it used to be fun. Now it is exactly what I just called it....a job. Why? Because some of you petulant children seem to have forgotten that you aren't children anymore. Some of you have forgotten what the **** manners are. Some of you have forgotten how to be pleasant sons of bitches.

A few of the threads around here have gotten to the point of just a freaking pissing match between 2 sides where no one is right or wrong and it's all just opinions that some feel they need to fight to the death. ******* ridiculous.

Now, not only is Gem wise beyond her years (26 I believe), she is dead on about the behavior on the forum. I can't even say recently, because it's been going on for a while. I've been just as guilty as others, so this isn't pointing fingers, unless I acknowledge the three pointed back at me when I point at you.

We are all part of the same, small, Broncos community, and are all pulling for the same thing. it's only the very passion we have for our favorite team that leads to this endless bickering an incivility.

One other note. Do you guys see how Gem cursed? Do you see the proper ******* way, which is to type it and let the filter bleep it out? There are many lessons to be learned here, let's not let them go to waste. :D

Ravage!!!
09-07-2010, 05:27 PM
Reminded me of a Seinfeld episode where George as meeting with the three execs from another ball team. "Tell them sons-of-bitches ....." :lol:

I'm a pretty pleasant son-o-bitch...

spikerman
09-07-2010, 05:28 PM
Some of you have forgotten how to be pleasant sons of bitches.
If ever a sentence from a post was sig worthy .........

Ravage!!!
09-07-2010, 05:33 PM
Am I the only one, or does everyone start to go look for the "Boobs of the Day" thread after seeing GEM's name in a post?

GEM
09-07-2010, 05:35 PM
If ever a sentence from a post was sig worthy .........

That happened to be my favorite line of the post. :D

GEM
09-07-2010, 05:36 PM
Am I the only one, or does everyone start to go look for the "Boobs of the Day" thread after seeing GEM's name in a post?

I'm not even in the Boobs of the day. :lol:

rcsodak
09-07-2010, 05:36 PM
I didn't tell you to **** off. Might want to re-read the post to make sure you didn't misread anything else.

However, based on this response, I now know, and the mods know, that you read my post and are on notice regarding your stalker comments.
wow. So since when did that term become a 4letter word? Seriously! I was called that before. By some posters when they thought I was commenting on too many of their posts....and I laughed them off. Not sure your reasoning for your, IMHO, overreaction, but evidently I touched (figuratively, of course), a tender spot. So I am publicly apologizing for the stalker comment. And let me be perfectly clear, I never once even contemplated calling the police. (I'm not real certain they'd even take me seriously if I had?)

Hopefully we're cool again? BBBBBBBBuddy?
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Tned
09-07-2010, 05:40 PM
wow. So since when did that term become a 4letter word? Seriously! I was called that before. By some posters when they thought I was commenting on too many of their posts....and I laughed them off. Not sure your reasoning for your, IMHO, overreaction, but evidently I touched (figuratively, of course), a tender spot. So I am publicly apologizing for the stalker comment. And let me be perfectly clear, I never once even contemplated calling the police. (I'm not real certain they'd even take me seriously if I had?)

Hopefully we're cool again? BBBBBBBBuddy?
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I think you of all people know the real life stigma associated with the stalker title, Buddy.

So, apology accepted, and please honor Gem's request that we all start acting in a more civil manner to each other.

Tned
09-07-2010, 05:41 PM
I'm not even in the Boobs of the day. :lol:

You have the power to change that. I'm thinking a two finger handkini would do the trick!!!

Ravage!!!
09-07-2010, 05:41 PM
I'm not even in the Boobs of the day. :lol:

Not YET!!!

But, that doesn't mean thats not what I think of when I see your name!!! :D

Slick
09-07-2010, 05:48 PM
Josh has every right to do things his way, and I wouldn't expect it any other way, however, we as fans, and members of this forum, are going to have to accept that there will always be posters who will never forgive him for making some of these moves.

It's not hard to tel who those posters are, but for every one of them, there's a Josh McDaniels defense attorney to the rescue, only making the hostility grow. Let some of these guys take a cheap shot and move on...either side...it's not that hard. In the end we're all on the same side here, we just have differing opinions.

Until the Denver Broncos start winning games and showing improvement there will always be harsh criticism for McDaniels.

Why people take it so personal is beyond me.

GEM
09-07-2010, 05:54 PM
You all need to join boob-a-holics!

Lonestar
09-07-2010, 05:55 PM
Josh has every right to do things his way, and I wouldn't expect it any other way, however, we as fans, and members of this forum, are going to have to accept that there will always be posters who will never forgive him for making some of these moves.

It's not hard to tel who those posters are, but for every one of them, there's a Josh McDaniels defense attorney to the rescue, only making the hostility grow. Let some of these guys take a cheap shot and move on...either side...it's not that hard. In the end we're all on the same side here, we just have differing opinions.

Until the Denver Broncos start winning games and showing improvement t here will always be harsh criticism for McDaniels.

Why people take it so personal is beyond me.


IMHO there are many folks that are way to invested in either jay, bm, or mikey to ever let this happen. Just as Jake brings up big time emotions the firing of mikey will never be forgotten by some.

I just wish to move on without all the rancor that is stirred up if Josh farts wrong.

the guy is human. he did not have the luxury of having another HC job before walking in here. It was cold turkey and anyone thinking that mistakes will not be made well they need to slip some coolade and put on the orange colored glasses to settle them down.

As I have said before when he reaches the same threshold of boo boo his predecessor does then I'll be on him also. till then he gets his pass .

dogfish
09-07-2010, 05:55 PM
Josh has every right to do things his way, and I wouldn't expect it any other way, however, we as fans, and members of this forum, are going to have to accept that there will always be posters who will never forgive him for making some of these moves.

It's not hard to tel who those posters are, but for every one of them, there's a Josh McDaniels defense attorney to the rescue, only making the hostility grow. Let some of these guys take a cheap shot and move on...either side...it's not that hard. In the end we're all on the same side here, we just have differing opinions.

Until the Denver Broncos start winning games and showing improvement there will always be harsh criticism for McDaniels.

Why people take it so personal is beyond me.

i'd ask if you want to run off to mexico together, but you're already there. . . .

dogfish
09-07-2010, 05:56 PM
You all need to join boob-a-holics!

how can we join something we were all born members of?

Tned
09-07-2010, 05:56 PM
Josh has every right to do things his way, and I wouldn't expect it any other way, however, we as fans, and members of this forum, are going to have to accept that there will always be posters who will never forgive him for making some of these moves.

It's not hard to tel who those posters are, but for every one of them, there's a Josh McDaniels defense attorney to the rescue, only making the hostility grow. Let some of these guys take a cheap shot and move on...either side...it's not that hard. In the end we're all on the same side here, we just have differing opinions.

Until the Denver Broncos start winning games and showing improvement there will always be harsh criticism for McDaniels.

Why people take it so personal is beyond me.

Well said, especially since the lack of forgiveness runs VERY deep and has many layers for a lot of posters.


Some hated the signing of Jake and hence the good Jake/bad Jake war began.
Then, those that hated Jake cheered the drafting of Jay, and those that loved Jake hated it. That led to the "who should start, Jay or Jake" wars.
Then, Jake was benched in favor of Jay, which led to Jay sucks/fire Shanahan outcry and ensuing war.
Then, Shanahan was fired, and ultimately Jay was traded, which made the Jake lovers (Jay haters) estactic, as both Shanahan and Jay (the two people that screwed over Jake) were gone and got their just dues, but of course that led to an epic battle between the Jay lovers and Jake lovers, which morphed into the hate McDaniels/love McDaniels war.

There are a LOT of layers to this rotten onion, and at some level each of us needs to just remember we are all Broncos fans (ok, except for KCL, Devilspawn and a couple other token rival fans ;)) and ultimately want the same thing.

:JumpsOffSoapBox:

Tned
09-07-2010, 05:58 PM
You all need to join boob-a-holics!

Only if they hold the meetings in a strip club!! :lol:

GEM
09-07-2010, 05:59 PM
IMHO there are many folks that are way to invested in either jay, bm, or mikey to ever let this happen. Just as Jake brings up big time emotions the firing of mikey will never be forgotten by some.

I just wish to move on without all the rancor that is stirred up if Josh farts wrong.

the guy is human. he did not have the luxury of having another HC job before walking in here. It was cold turkey and anyone thinking that mistakes will not be made well they need to slip some coolade and put on the orange colored glasses to settle them down.

As I have said before when he reaches the same threshold of boo boo his predecessor does then I'll be on him also. till then he gets his pass .

JR, let's not kid ourselves. You are one of the worst on the other side of the fence. You bring Mikey into damn near any and every conversation on this board. It's just as sickening as what pisses you off in the McD haters.