Denver shopping Phonz

[broncobryce]

Tweeted just now.

[broncobryce]

According to Jason Lacanfora, they seek a 5th.

[LRtagger]

Coach just feels sorry for the queefs, sparklies, and gaydurs because all of their receivers suck....he didn't want to insult Phonz by asking him to cover second rate wideouts.

[T.K.O.]

OUCH !...trade him to the G-men for brandon jacobs

[Ziggy]

So much for McD not being willing to admit his mistakes and cut ties.....if this is true. Cassius Vaughn is probably salivating over the thought of Phonz getting traded or released.

[T.K.O.]

just moves my man syd'quan up the company ladder a rung !:elefant::beer:

[Tempus Fugit]

If this is true, that's pulling the plug incredibly fast on such a high pick.

[broncobryce]

I don't think they'll get a 5th. Teams will just wait and hope he gets cut.

[broncophan]

yea......wonder who would give us a 5th round pick???

[LRtagger]

yea......wonder who would give us a 5th round pick???

Balt

[TXBRONC]

I don't think they'll get a 5th. Teams will just wait and hope he gets cut.

It might depend on how desparate they are of course this is assuming that LaCanfora has it right.

[T.K.O.]

Damnitall ! if they had chester taylor still balt might have swapped:mad:wait that was the vikes....oh well they need the phonz too !

[dogfish]

shocking!

[Northman]

Man, and he was playing so well.

[LTC Pain]

With Cox and Thompson playing so well I'm not going to miss Smith or even cry about trading away a first round draft pick to get him last year. It's time to move on and let the best guys play.

[Ravage!!!]

sooo... we traded the 14th pick of this draft for a 5th round pick in next year's draft...... if someone even gives that much.

[dogfish]

With Cox and Thompson playing so well I'm not going to miss Smith or even cry about trading away a first round draft pick to get him last year. It's time to move on and let the best guys play.

i'm gonna cry about the pick. . .


:cries:

[Northman]

sooo... we traded the 14th pick of this draft for a 5th round pick in next year's draft...... if someone even gives that much.


Yea, as they say every coach makes a bad pick and this was clearly one of them. But im just glad that McD isnt sitting back and forcing something that isnt there. I feel pretty vindicated today for all the shit i took regarding this issue.

[TXBRONC]

While this isn't out of the realm reality do we have any confirmation veracity of this rumor?

Even if it's true which by the way wouldn't bother me we don't know if there would be any teams interested in Smith.

[Northman]

While this isn't out of the realm reality do we have any confirmation veracity of this rumor?

Even if it's true which by the way wouldn't bother me we don't know if there would be any teams interested in Smith.


This is what ive found right now.

http://www.sportsoverdose.com/nfl-players/alphonso-smith

[Denver Native (Carol)]

If this came from La Canfora, there is nothing on this link about this

http://twitter.com/jasonlacanfora

[honz]

http://twitter.com/JasonLaCanfora/status/22930846308

[topscribe]

Yea, as they say every coach makes a bad pick and this was clearly one of them. But im just glad that McD isnt sitting back and forcing something that isnt there. I feel pretty vindicated today for all the shit i took regarding this issue.

I know where you're coming from . . .

-----

[Denver Native (Carol)]

http://twitter.com/JasonLaCanfora/status/22930846308

Guess he must have a couple of accounts

[Northman]

Here's another article from MileHighReport.

http://www.milehighreport.com/2010/9/3/1668560/broncos-shopping-alphonso-smith


NFL.com's Jason La Canfora is reporting that the Broncos (http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/teams/denver-broncos) are actively shopping CB Alphonso Smith (http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/players/71322/Alphonso_Smith) with the team reportedly looking for a 5ht Round pick in return. That would be a huge fall for a player that the Broncos thought so highly of just a year ago.
Smith has received plenty of playing time this preseason, but the emergence of Perrish Cox and Syd'Quan Thompson, along with the siging of Nate Jones in the off-season has put Smith's future in Denver in serious doubt. His time with the Broncos to date could easily be described in last night's game against the Vikings.
A perfect microcosm of Smith's pro career, it saw flashes of brilliance - Smith had an interception and a fumble recovery - as well as poorly-timed lowpoints - Smith tripped and fell on Javon Walker's 63-yard touchdown reception, and Smith was called for an Illegal Contact penalty on a 3rd down play in the 4th Quarter that kept a Vikings drive alive.
This is surely a story to keep our eyes on. The Vikings are one of the teams in need of some CB depth, and Smith was likely being prominently displayed to Minnesota in last night's contest.
Another NFC North team being floated around is the Green Bay Packers...
Stay Tuned!

[Ravage!!!]

Oops... he ws being show cased to Minnesota and they watched him jut give up a 69 yarder. Not exactly the best way to have them offer up best value.

[Northman]

Ravens might be interested but i havent heard any rumblings yet.

Here is an article written yesterday that touched on the points about Thompson and Cox outplaying him.


If CB Alphonso Smith was being evaluated on merit alone, he would not make the Broncos' roster, a team observer told PFW. Broncos head coach Josh McDaniels traded a 2010 first-round pick to select Smith in the second round of the '09 draft, but Smith has failed to live up to his billing since entering the league and it appears McDaniels will have to choose between keeping Smith or seventh-round pick CB Syd'Quan Thompson when the coach makes a decision on the 53-man roster.
Fifth-round pick CB Perrish Cox has looked like a steal while outplaying Smith in the preseason and Thompson proved he belongs on an NFL roster with a strong performance in Denver's third preseason game. McDaniels would be admitting a huge mistake by cutting Smith, but it's a move some say he ought to make.

For authoritative coverage and analysis of NFL news, free agency and fantasy football, visit ProFootballWeekly.com (http://www.profootballweekly.com/).



http://www.profootballweekly.com/2010/09/02/broncos-cb-smith-playing-his-way-off-roster

[Traveler]

Any players on GB that might fill our RB need?

[Ravage!!!]

i wonder how bosco is doing to spin this into him being right?

[Northman]

Any players on GB that might fill our RB need?

Gives us Grant. lol

Yea right, that will happen. They may have a receiving TE if only we used them.

[underrated29]

yea......wonder who would give us a 5th round pick???




Id give up a 5th for him. I think that is well worth the risk. I do not think he is going to impress, but he is pretty good, Id rather have him than karl paymah and others.

[Ravage!!!]

I wouldn't. I think Paymah highly out played what we've seen from phonz.

[Northman]

I wouldn't. I think Paymah highly out played what we've seen from phonz.

Didnt Paymah actually start a few games? Especially early? I was never quite that impressed with him but i do remember him actually being used at the very least at nickel.

[T.K.O.]

paymah got cut today

[Ravage!!!]

Didnt Paymah actually start a few games? Especially early? I was never quite that impressed with him but i do remember him actually being used at the very least at nickel.

yeah.. he was mixed in with that jack williams, foxworth.. triad of trying to get playing time.....but I thinkPaymah usually out played those two.

Paymah wasn't great, but he gave us more than Phonz has for sure... imo.

[WARHORSE]

Id take a run stuffing Dlineman in exchange.

Minnesotas second string Dline seemed pretty stout to me.........

[Traveler]

Rumor:

Alan Branch for Smith + conditional pick in 2012

[Ravage!!!]

http://www.nfl.com/players/alanbranch/profile?id=BRA489251

[Northman]

Do it. We could use more Dline help.

[honz]

Guess he must have a couple of accounts
You probably just didn't go back far enough. That post was like 2 hours old when I went looking for it to post it on here. Dude is a beast on Tweeter.

[LordTrychon]

yeah.. he was mixed in with that jack williams, foxworth.. triad of trying to get playing time.....but I thinkPaymah usually out played those two.

Paymah wasn't great, but he gave us more than Phonz has for sure... imo.

Darrent?

[Bosco]

While this isn't out of the realm reality do we have any confirmation veracity of this rumor?

Even if it's true which by the way wouldn't bother me we don't know if there would be any teams interested in Smith.

LaCanfora is usually pretty good, but he's had his share of misses too. I believe he was one of the ones who incorrectly reported that we were trying to trade Scheffler in the 2009 preseason.

I could see it being true though, although you'd think Schefter would be talking about it as well. I'd give it about a 65% chance of being right.

[Ravage!!!]

Darrent?

I was thinking the season after Darrent, I guess. When jack was drafted and Foxworth, Jack Williams, and Paymah were all competing for time. That, and Foxworth and Paymah competing to be the nickle back.....

At the time, it felt like we had all these young talented CBs that had 'potential'.... Darrent, Paymah, Foxworth, then Jack...

something that feels similar to now the way some feel about the young 'late round' finds we have in our DB field.

[Bosco]

I was thinking the season after Darrent, I guess. When jack was drafted and Foxworth, Jack Williams, and Paymah were all competing for time. That, and Foxworth and Paymah competing to be the nickle back.....

At the time, it felt like we had all these young talented CBs that had 'potential'.... Darrent, Paymah, Foxworth, then Jack...

something that feels similar to now the way some feel about the young 'late round' finds we have in our DB field.

Foxworth was gone after 2007, and Jack Williams was drafted in 2008, so they were never on the roster at the same time.

[Skinny]

Rumor:

Alan Branch for Smith + conditional pick in 2012I would love to get Branch. I would love it even more to get him for Smith and a conditional in 2012.

[Bosco]

Rumor:

Alan Branch for Smith + conditional pick in 2012

Where did you hear that?

[LordTrychon]

I was thinking the season after Darrent, I guess. When jack was drafted and Foxworth, Jack Williams, and Paymah were all competing for time. That, and Foxworth and Paymah competing to be the nickle back.....

At the time, it felt like we had all these young talented CBs that had 'potential'.... Darrent, Paymah, Foxworth, then Jack...

something that feels similar to now the way some feel about the young 'late round' finds we have in our DB field.

Ok... wasn't sure how they overlapped.

I think Foxworth and Paymah had already managed to not make it to the potential we'd hoped by the time we had Jack.

[I Eat Staples]

I'm not so sure I'd trade him for a 5th just yet. Maybe wait another year. If he goes somewhere else and becomes relevant then McD will have compounded one mistake with another. We have a young, unproven secondary. And damn why would you keep Nate Jones over Smith??

[HORSEPOWER 56]

I'm not so sure I'd trade him for a 5th just yet. Maybe wait another year. If he goes somewhere else and becomes relevant then McD will have compounded one mistake with another. We have a young, unproven secondary. And damn why would you keep Nate Jones over Smith??

The only reasons I can think of are:

a) Jones plays spot duty at Safety. You know McDaniels loves those "utility players".

b) We signed Jones to a decent sized contract in free agency IIRC. Smith really doesn't cost us much to trade or release. Jones would be the bigger waste of money.

c) Does it really matter? They are currently 5th and 6th on the depth chart and interchangeable.

I just hope we can get something in return. A 5th would be okay with me. I'd prefer a solid RB or D-lineman.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

Rumor:

Alan Branch for Smith + conditional pick in 2012

You just started that rumor, huh? I'd be stoked to get Branch.

[I Eat Staples]

The only reasons I can think of are:

a) Jones plays spot duty at Safety. You know McDaniels loves those "utility players".

b) We signed Jones to a decent sized contract in free agency IIRC. Smith really doesn't cost us much to trade or release. Jones would be the bigger waste of money.

c) Does it really matter? They are currently 5th and 6th on the depth chart and interchangeable.

I just hope we can get something in return. A 5th would be okay with me. I'd prefer a solid RB or D-lineman.

I understand the thinking, I just think there's still a chance Smith can develop into a decent player. Nate Jones doesn't have any upside.

[Ravage!!!]

Ok... wasn't sure how they overlapped.

I think Foxworth and Paymah had already managed to not make it to the potential we'd hoped by the time we had Jack.

yeah... I just remember that Foxy was always competing with Paymah.. the discussions of who was better, who should be the nickle, who should be the 3rd corner in case Champ or Darrent went down. Then the debate one who should be traded since Foxy felt he was so good but wasn't getting a fair chance..... Darrent dying and the drafting of Jack came next.... then it was the competition between Paymah and Jack.....

Something like that. Doesn't really matter, but I feel we got a lot more out of Paymah than we did Smith... and for a lot less.

[LordTrychon]

yeah... I just remember that Foxy was always competing with Paymah.. the discussions of who was better, who should be the nickle, who should be the 3rd corner in case Champ or Darrent went down. Then the debate one who should be traded since Foxy felt he was so good but wasn't getting a fair chance..... Darrent dying and the drafting of Jack came next.... then it was the competition between Paymah and Jack.....

Something like that. Doesn't really matter, but I feel we got a lot more out of Paymah than we did Smith... and for a lot less.

Yeah, you're right... Paymah, Foxy, and Darrent just feel like ages ago. Man.

[TXBRONC]

yeah... I just remember that Foxy was always competing with Paymah.. the discussions of who was better, who should be the nickle, who should be the 3rd corner in case Champ or Darrent went down. Then the debate one who should be traded since Foxy felt he was so good but wasn't getting a fair chance..... Darrent dying and the drafting of Jack came next.... then it was the competition between Paymah and Jack.....

Something like that. Doesn't really matter, but I feel we got a lot more out of Paymah than we did Smith... and for a lot less.


Yeah, you're right... Paymah, Foxy, and Darrent just feel like ages ago. Man.

In "football years" it has been ages ago. :sad:

[Lonestar]

Think I will wait till it is real.
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[CrazyHorse]

yeah... I just remember that Foxy was always competing with Paymah.. the discussions of who was better, who should be the nickle, who should be the 3rd corner in case Champ or Darrent went down. Then the debate one who should be traded since Foxy felt he was so good but wasn't getting a fair chance..... Darrent dying and the drafting of Jack came next.... then it was the competition between Paymah and Jack.....

Something like that. Doesn't really matter, but I feel we got a lot more out of Paymah than we did Smith... and for a lot less.

Don't forget Dre' Bly!

[jhildebrand]

Balt

Baltimore acquired a CB from Seattle last week

[Ravage!!!]

New England just recently lost a CB for the year. Think they are as anxious to have ex-McD players as we are at having ex-Belicheck's?

[BroncoWave]

New England just recently lost a CB for the year. Think they are as anxious to have ex-McD players as we are at having ex-Belicheck's?

Well they did swipe Josh Barrett out from under us when we IR'd him.

[Ravage!!!]

Well they did swipe Josh Barrett out from under us when we IR'd him.

Yeah, but he was drafted by Shanahan. Not sure that counts.

[nevcraw]

Don't care if he is traded, cut, or grinds the pine.. This picked sucked and it still chaps my ass..

BTW - Peyton Hillis is in the running in 2 man race to the starter on opening day in cleveland.

[BroncoWave]

Don't care if he is traded, cut, or grinds the pine.. This picked sucked and it still chaps my ass..

BTW - Peyton Hillis is in the running in 2 man race to the starter on opening day in cleveland.

Montario Hardesty being out for the seasons helps that though.

[T.K.O.]

sooo... we traded the 14th pick of this draft for a 5th round pick in next year's draft...... if someone even gives that much.

AND...we got 2 guys that have outplayed a 2nd rounder in the 5th and 7th
=WIN !:beer:

[Lonestar]

What is the hangup with him beinga second pick you'd think that miketnever blew a first day pick. When infact all but 6 count SIX never signed a second contract with denver. If this is the worst that happens then we are still WAY ahead of mikeys record. So when and IF Josh gets 15% of his DAY ONE picks that hack it THEN I will be worried till then perhaps others may think about it.
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[Northman]

What is the hangup with him beinga second pick you'd think that miketnever blew a first day pick. When infact all but 6 count SIX never signed a second contract with denver. If this is the worst that happens then we are still WAY ahead of mikeys record. So when and IF Josh gets 15% of his DAY ONE picks that hack it THEN I will be worried till then perhaps others may think about it.
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Why are you yet again bringing up a former coach? No one has even made the comparison to Shanahan at any point in this thread.

[spikerman]

I'm lost. What exactly does this thread have to do with Shanahan? I must have misread the title/intent of the thread. :confused:

[spikerman]

Why are you yet again bringing up a former coach? No one has even made the comparison to Shanahan at any point in this thread.

Beat me to it.

[turftoad]

What is the hangup with him beinga second pick you'd think that miketnever blew a first day pick. When infact all but 6 count SIX never signed a second contract with denver. If this is the worst that happens then we are still WAY ahead of mikeys record. So when and IF Josh gets 15% of his DAY ONE picks that hack it THEN I will be worried till then perhaps others may think about it.
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Nice spin JR. Just admit McD made a mistake. That is all.

[Lonestar]

AND...we got 2 guys that have outplayed a 2nd rounder in the 5th and 7th
=WIN !:beer:

Will not be the first time nor the last that a lower round pick beats out a higher pick.

I just do not see why all the pissing and moaning has to be.
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[turftoad]

Will not be the first time nor the last that a lower round pick beats out a higher pick.

I just do not see why all the pissing and moaning has to be.
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Because he moved up to take a project. The #38 last year for the #14 this year. Makes great sense to me. :tsk: And...... moving up to take R. Quinn makes great sense too. :tsk:

Now it looks like J. Green is going to be cut, Bannan is going to be so so and Williams is old and fat. Thus the guys McD brings in aren't doing much of anything.
I don't know if the guy doesn't know how to evaluate talent or not. Doesn't look like it. :confused:

[Lonestar]

Why are you yet again bringing up a former coach? No one has even made the comparison to Shanahan at any point in this thread.

Th memories are short and everyone is pissining and Moaning about a mistake if it WAS. Totally giving mikey a pass and acting like Josh can do NO right.

So admit that this is not the first mistake the bronco have made and it is done till the next time someon acts like it is the first mistake the Broncos have made.

Again feel free not to read my posts. If you do not want comparisons. If you do not want to hear the facts fine by me.
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[BroncoWave]

JR, remember back a few weeks ago when you said you ONLY bring up Shanahan in response to others doing so? We see how true that was.

[Northman]

Th memories are short and everyone is pissining and Moaning about a mistake if it WAS. Totally giving mikey a pass and acting like Josh can do NO right.

This is totally and utterly a flat out lie. No one has ever given Shanahan a pass on his draft picks. Thats BS right there.


So admit that this is not the first mistake the bronco have made and it is done till the next time someon acts like it is the first mistake the Broncos have made.

Who cares if its the first or last mistake ever made in Broncoland? The issue at hand is that it was a mistake. Take your own advice for once and admit he made a mistake instead of just spinning it as usual.


Again feel free not to read my posts. If you do not want comparisons. If you do not want to hear the facts fine by me.
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Quit hijacking threads, you know better. Your taking the thread off topic which isnt Mike Shanahan.

[honz]

Because he moved up to take a project. The #38 last year for the #14 this year. Makes great sense to me. :tsk: And...... moving up to take R. Quinn makes great sense too. :tsk:

Now it looks like J. Green is going to be cut, Bannan is going to be so so and Williams is old and fat. Thus the guys McD brings in aren't doing much of anything.
I don't know if the guy doesn't know how to evaluate talent or not. Doesn't look like it. :confused:

He has made some mistakes, as all talent evaluators do, but let's not forget that he totally revamped one of the worst defenses in the NFL and made it respectable again in one offseason.

[T.K.O.]

its damn near sat afternoon and phonz has'nt even been cut or traded,so i think this is all a bit premature.
on the other hand IF mcD does cut or trade phonz.it means 2 very good things....
1)we have up and coming players who are an upgrade

2)we have a coach who is willing to take the heat for a poor choice.admit he was wrong and move on with what's best for the team.
=WIN !:salute:

[T.K.O.]

He has made some mistakes, as all talent evaluators do, but let's not forget that he totally revamped one of the worst defenses in the NFL and made it respectable again in one offseason.

not to mention he did have to scramble a little more and use scouts he was unfamiliar with.
also how was the bowling open yesterday ?:D

[turftoad]

He has made some mistakes, as all talent evaluators do, but let's not forget that he totally revamped one of the worst defenses in the NFL and made it respectable again in one offseason.

This has yet to be seen.

[Lonestar]

Because he moved up to take a project. The #38 last year for the #14 this year. Makes great sense to me. :tsk: And...... moving up to take R. Quinn makes great sense too. :tsk:

Now it looks like J. Green is going to be cut, Bannan is going to be so so and Williams is old and fat. Thus the guys McD brings in aren't doing much of anything.
I don't know if the guy doesn't know how to evaluate talent or not. Doesn't look like it. :confused:

Do you really think that Josh is doing this all by himself that his sxouts and position coaches have nothing to say about who is brought in?

IIRC willaims DL coach last year WAS hired by us this year and he WAS the guy that urged Josh to bring him in. That WAS what I understood it to be.

As for greene not sure who brought him in and why. Perhaps it WAS the NE connection.

Bannan IIRC has looked pretty good when I have seen him. I place very little stock in PS games.way to many variables to make intelngent decisions not knowing the play that WAS called, to who WAS next to him on the play,were there any missed assignment or wrong routes run.

We have coaches to make those calls.

Now we are all (for the most part) judging players from preseason play. If the same WAS done last year then those first 6 wins were irrelevant.

I for one am going beleive that the coaching staff will get the most out of our talent once the bell rings.
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[TXBRONC]

He has made some mistakes, as all talent evaluators do, but let's not forget that he totally revamped one of the worst defenses in the NFL and made it respectable again in one offseason.

Over the past several months some have said the opposite in fact they have blamed the collaspe completely on Nolan.

[turftoad]

Do you really think that Josh is doing this all by himself that his sxouts and position coaches have nothing to say about who is brought in?

IIRC willaims DL coach last year WAS hired by us this year and he WAS the guy that urged Josh to bring him in. That WAS what I understood it to be.

As for greene not sure who brought him in and why. Perhaps it WAS the NE connection.

Bannan IIRC has looked pretty good when I have seen him. I place very little stock in PS games.way to many variables to make intelngent decisions not knowing the play that WAS called, to who WAS next to him on the play,were there any missed assignment or wrong routes run.

We have coaches to make those calls.

Now we are all (for the most part) judging players from preseason play. If the same WAS done last year then those first 6 wins were irrelevant.

I for one am going beleive that the coaching staff will get the most out of our talent once the bell rings.
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OK then. You have finally got me believing that Josh is perfect and makes zero mistakes and never will. :tsk:

[Northman]

Over the past several months some have said the opposite in fact they have blamed collaspe completely on Nolan.


Yeeeeeeep. Funny how when we were winning it was on McD's shoulders, but when the losing started it was Nolan.

[honz]

This has yet to be seen.
We went from 29th in points allowed to 12th in one year under McDaniels...some credit can go to Nolan probably, but we also replaced 7 or 8 of our defensive starters.

[turftoad]

We went from 29th in points allowed to 12th in one year under McDaniels...some credit can go to Nolan probably, but we also replaced 7 or 8 of our defensive starters.

I don't think our defense scares anyone. Sorry.

[BroncoWave]

I don't think our defense scares anyone. Sorry.

That's not the point. The point is that it improved drastically in the midst of McD having to scramble to put a draft board together and having to adjust the returning players to the new scheme.

[honz]

Yeeeeeeep. Funny how when we were winning it was on McD's shoulders, but when the losing started it was Nolan.
Where did I say that??? They both took part in coaching the defense, but our D was still a hell of a lot better then it had been the previous couple of years. Dawkins, Goodman, Hill, Fields, etc. had a lot to do with that.

[Northman]

Where did I say that??? They both took part in coaching the defense, but our D was still a hell of a lot better then it had been the previous couple of years. Dawkins, Goodman, Hill, Fields, etc. had a lot to do with that.

So did having a bonafide DC which had a LOT more to do with than your implying.

[honz]

I don't think our defense scares anyone. Sorry.
I never said we were the Steel Curtain, but giving up 20 points a game ain't that bad. It at least gives you a chance to win almost every game you suit up for. 29 to 12 is a big jump in one year, and the jump was even bigger if you look at yards instead of points allowed.

[honz]

So did having a bonafide DC which had a LOT more to do with than your implying.
So, you're saying it's Nolan's work when the defense was playing well, but McDaniels' fault when we collapsed? :lol:

[Northman]

So, you're saying it's Nolan's work when the defense was playing well, but McDaniels' fault when we collapsed? :lol:

I never said that.

[TXBRONC]

We went from 29th in points allowed to 12th in one year under McDaniels...some credit can go to Nolan probably, but we also replaced 7 or 8 of our defensive starters.

Well if Nolan only gets some of the credit for things going right then he should only get some of the blame for the things that went wrong.

[Lonestar]

Nice spin JR. Just admit McD made a mistake. That is all.

I guess until he is actually traded all of this is just conjecture when I have seen the kid play I saw no more issuses with him than I did most of the other DBs but then I have not been scouring the NFLN tape looking for faults either.

Could he be gone sure it is not like we have to keep him but then that has been Joshs mantra from day one the best players play regardless of draft position.

I for one am ok with that and believe that is a positive.
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[honz]

I know, I was just pointing out you're absurd accusations of me a couple posts after I gave credit to Nolan. I don't see how there is any way to argue that we didn't significantly upgrade our defensive roster over the past couple of years, though.

[BroncoWave]

I know, I was just pointing out you're absurd accusations of me a couple posts after I gave credit to Nolan. I don't see how there is any way to argue that we didn't significantly upgrade our defensive roster over the past couple of years, though.

Agreed, have people already forgotten that Marquand Manuel and Nate Webster used to START on our defense? We have definitely upgraded the talent.

[honz]

Well if Nolan only gets some of the credit for things going right then he should only get some for the things that went wrong.
I would agree with that, and haven't said otherwise. I'm not sure how Nolan came up here as all I was trying to point out is that we have a lot more talent on defense than we did when McD got here, regardless of the coaching successes or failures of McD or Nolan.

[Northman]

I know, I was just pointing out you're absurd accusations of me a couple posts after I gave credit to Nolan. I don't see how there is any way to argue that we didn't significantly upgrade our defensive roster over the past couple of years, though.

Well, it would "seem" as a an upgrade on paper. But when you step back and look at the body of work we still had some of the glaring issues that has plagued this defense the last few years. I think the point that TX and Turf are trying to make is until we consistently show that we are better through the course of the year it would be hard pressed to say we are really better. Obviously, after the quick start last year it was very deceiving as far as our rankings go.

[LTC Pain]

Well, it would "seem" as a an upgrade on paper. But when you step back and look at the body of work we still had some of the glaring issues that has plagued this defense the last few years. I think the point that TX and Turf are trying to make is until we consistently show that we are better through the course of the year it would be hard pressed to say we are really better. Obviously, after the quick start last year it was very deceiving as far as our rankings go.

HUA! The proof is in the pudding my fellow Bronco fans :elefant::beer::salute:

[Lonestar]

OK then. You have finally got me believing that Josh is perfect and makes zero mistakes and never will. :tsk:

Have not said that at all so stop baiting me. Josh is responsilble for oking the changes. But to imply like others have he just decided these were his guys and no one had anything to do with it is demeaning the the Broncos as well as Josh.

We have xman as GM in charge of scouting and posistion coaches who all have input. Do not assume that it is all Josh.
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[Northman]

Have not said that at all so stop baiting me. Josh is responsilble for oking the changes. But to imply like others have he just decided these were his guys and no one had anything to do with it is demeaning the the Broncos as well as Josh.

We have xman as GM in charge of scouting and posistion coaches who all have input. Do not assume that it is all Josh.
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Josh is the HC no? He makes the final decisions no? Just like a certain someone did who you TOTALLY hold responsible no?

[Tned]

What is the hangup with him beinga second pick you'd think that miketnever blew a first day pick. When infact all but 6 count SIX never signed a second contract with denver. If this is the worst that happens then we are still WAY ahead of mikeys record. So when and IF Josh gets 15% of his DAY ONE picks that hack it THEN I will be worried till then perhaps others may think about it.
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We know you're still butt hurt over whatever "mikey" did to you, but it's time to let it go, brother. It's been over a year and a half, you can't keep living in the past and need to let the butt hurt anger go, or if you don't have it in you to do it, then create a "mikey" bashing thread and stop dragging every other thread off topic.

[TXBRONC]

I would agree with that, and haven't said otherwise. I'm not sure how Nolan came up here as all I was trying to point out is that we have a lot more talent on defense than we did when McD got here, regardless of the coaching successes or failures of McD or Nolan.

Like this I suppose.


He has made some mistakes, as all talent evaluators do, but let's not forget that he totally revamped one of the worst defenses in the NFL and made it respectable again in one offseason.


Over the past several months some have said the opposite in fact they have blamed collaspe completely on Nolan.

[T.K.O.]

sooooo....any word on how the phonz shopping is going ?:behindsofa:

[Northman]

Probably not well, he cant tackle.

[red98]

I know, I was just pointing out you're absurd accusations of me a couple posts after I gave credit to Nolan. I don't see how there is any way to argue that we didn't significantly upgrade our defensive roster over the past couple of years, though.

Did we? Dawkins, Goodman, they were upgrades. DJ,DOOM,Champ, they were here already. We certainly got better results for 6 games. Our pass D was much better all year, so that was good.

McD has so far continued the Shanny tradition of refusing to spend high picks on talented defensive linemen, so that hasn't changed.

He did get us Ayers who is coming along at about the normal rate for his position.

I see it as an upgrade but not all that significant.

[turftoad]

Have not said that at all so stop baiting me. Josh is responsilble for oking the changes. But to imply like others have he just decided these were his guys and no one had anything to do with it is demeaning the the Broncos as well as Josh.

We have xman as GM in charge of scouting and posistion coaches who all have input. Do not assume that it is all Josh.
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I'm just trying to be realistic here.
Josh can and will make mistakes. He is a person just like the rest of us. When he makes a mistake I will call him on it and not try to put the blame on some else every single time.

[honz]

Did we? Dawkins, Goodman, they were upgrades. DJ,DOOM,Champ, they were here already. We certainly got better results for 6 games. Our pass D was much better all year, so that was good.

McD has so far continued the Shanny tradition of refusing to spend high picks on talented defensive linemen, so that hasn't changed.

He did get us Ayers who is coming along at about the normal rate for his position.

I see it as an upgrade but not all that significant.

Hill was an upgrade. Davis was an upgrade. Hagan was an upgrade. Fields was an upgrade. Cox appears to be a player. Williams and Bannan aren't long term solutions, but they are certainly an upgrade. Ayers appears to be coming on, but we still need to see him and Cox in regular season play.

[Lonestar]

That's not the point. The point is that it improved drastically in the midst of McD having to scramble to put a draft board together and having to adjust the returning players to the new scheme.

Let's not confuse feelings fo logic here. Great post.
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[Tned]

That's not the point. The point is that it improved drastically in the midst of McD having to scramble to put a draft board together and having to adjust the returning players to the new scheme.

If he was scrambling to put a board together, that reinforces how poor a trade it was. You only make a trade like that (giving up a first to draft someone in the second), when you KNOW he's as close to a sure thing as they come.

[TXBRONC]

Hill was an upgrade. Davis was an upgrade. Hagan was an upgrade. Fields was an upgrade. Cox appears to be a player. Williams and Bannan aren't long term solutions, but they are certainly an upgrade. Ayers appears to be coming on, but we still need to see him and Cox in regular season play.

I agree with you about Hill, Haggan, and Davis were ok at the start of season. Fields is serviceable but he's obviously not someone you want playing 16 games at nose tackle. Bannan looks like he'll be solid but I'm not sure about Williams. If he's got anything left in the tank then I think we'll be ok if he doesn't then I don't know. I also agree about Ayers and Cox.

[spikerman]

That's not the point. The point is that it improved drastically in the midst of McD having to scramble to put a draft board together and having to adjust the returning players to the new scheme.

Maybe in retrospect it wasn't a good idea to fire the Goodmans (whoever's decision it was) so close to the draft after all.

Next, I keep hearing that McDaniels didn't have enough time to prepare for the draft. Fair enough. If that's the case maybe he should have been more conservative in his drafting and not so "freewheeling" in trading multiple picks for "reach" players.

[Lonestar]

Josh is the HC no? He makes the final decisions no? Just like a certain someone did who you TOTALLY hold responsible no?
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[Lonestar]

Josh is the HC no? He makes the final decisions no? Just like a certain someone did who you TOTALLY hold responsible no?

Where have I said anythingto the contray. Iiinsaid anythingany
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[Lonestar]

This mobile can be crap at times. Take th double post have no ifea how that happened.

On the swcond post after the first line I could not see what WAS typed. Sorry about that.
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[T.K.O.]

Where have I said anythingto the contray. Iiinsaid anythingany
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howard johnson is right !........rrrrrREVNEN !:D


(you must be a "blazzing saddles" fan to get this one)

[Bosco]

sooooo....any word on how the phonz shopping is going ?:behindsofa:

I haven't seen anyone else but LaCanfora talking about this.

[Lonestar]

Maybe in retrospect it wasn't a good idea to fire the Goodmans (whoever's decision it was) so close to the draft after all.

Next, I keep hearing that McDaniels didn't have enough time to prepare for the draft. Fair enough. If that's the case maybe he should have been more conservative in his drafting and not so "freewheeling" in trading multiple picks for "reach" players.

And just maybe they were fired for cause unable to give the coaches viable players to make decisions About.

Kind of like flying in the fog you do the best you can.

For all we know the scouts told the powers to be smith WAS the next champ.

Until proven otherwise. We can belive the scouting department gave glowing remarks on all of our choice last year.
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[spikerman]

And just maybe they were fired for cause unable to give the coaches viable players to make decisions About.

Kind of like flying in the fog you do the best you can.

For all we know the scouts told the powers to be smith WAS the next champ.

Until proven otherwise. We can belive the scouting department gave glowing remarks on all of our choice last year.
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I would doubt that they were unable to give the coaches viable players to make decisions about since they had a pretty solid draft just the previous year. I suspect they knew what they were doing when it came to talent evaluation.

As for the other points in your post, it's very possible that they did get bad information from their scouts leading up to the draft. That's the type of thing that happens when you cut the head off your scouting department, with no apparent replacement, so close to the draft.

[turftoad]

I would doubt that they were unable to give the coaches viable players to make decisions about since they had a pretty solid draft just the previous year. I suspect they knew what they were doing when it came to talent evaluation.

As for the other points in your post, it's very possible that they did get bad information from their scouts leading up to the draft. That's the type of thing that happens when you cut the head off your scouting department, with no apparent replacement, so close to the draft.

Yep, just another brilliant decision by the new front office.

[red98]

Hill was an upgrade. Davis was an upgrade. Hagan was an upgrade. Fields was an upgrade. Cox appears to be a player. Williams and Bannan aren't long term solutions, but they are certainly an upgrade. Ayers appears to be coming on, but we still need to see him and Cox in regular season play.

Forgot about Hill. Williams we have to wait and see, Cox looks like the real deal already. But those other guys from last year, I'm not sure if they were so much an upgrade, as we just got more out of them.

I'll say the defensive coaching was a huge upgrade and Wink has a chance to keep that progress going.

I guess we'll find out when the real games begin.

[Bosco]

And just maybe they were fired for cause unable to give the coaches viable players to make decisions About.

Kind of like flying in the fog you do the best you can.

For all we know the scouts told the powers to be smith WAS the next champ.

Until proven otherwise. We can belive the scouting department gave glowing remarks on all of our choice last year.
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From what I hear it was pretty simple. The race for the GM job was between Jeff and Xanders. McD apparently got along very well with Xanders and Jeff is rumored to have not been real well liked within the front office, so Xanders became the obvious choice. Once Jeff was gone, Bowlen didn't want to force Jim Goodman to have to choose between his loyalty to his son and to the Broncos, so Bowlen terminated him, allowing him to keep his salary, which would not have happened had Jim resigned.

[T.K.O.]

8-8 is 8-8 is 8-8:cool:
buck up people....good times are comin':salute:

[spikerman]

8-8 is 8-8 is 8-8:cool:


I'm not sure about this. After all, I've been reading a lot on the board about how last year's 8-8 was somehow much better than the previous year's 8-8.

[TXBRONC]

I'm not sure about this. After all, I've been reading a lot on the board about how last year's 8-8 was somehow much better than the previous year's 8-8.

:nod:

[T.K.O.]

I'm not sure about this. After all, I've been reading a lot on the board about how last year's 8-8 was somehow much better than the previous year's 8-8.

i'm an equal opportunity hater....i HATED both !:mad:

[Northman]

I'm not sure about this. After all, I've been reading a lot on the board about how last year's 8-8 was somehow much better than the previous year's 8-8.

Yep, no matter how much you try to shine a turd its still a turd.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

I'm not sure about this. After all, I've been reading a lot on the board about how last year's 8-8 was somehow much better than the previous year's 8-8.

That's because it was a TEAM 8-8... :coffee:

[Northman]

That's because it was a TEAM 8-8... :coffee:

:lol:

Tim Burrrrrrrrrrrn!

[TXBRONC]

Yep, no matter how much you try to shine a turd its still a turd.

Even if it's dipped in 18 karat gold? :noidea:

[Lonestar]

I would doubt that they were unable to give the coaches viable players to make decisions about since they had a pretty solid draft just the previous year. I suspect they knew what they were doing when it came to talent evaluation.

As for the other points in your post, it's very possible that they did get bad information from their scouts leading up to the draft. That's the type of thing that happens when you cut the head off your scouting department, with no apparent replacement, so close to the draft.

OK let me state this again.

yep we had what most thought at the time was a solid group of players.

BUT they were evaluating for mikeys mind set.

when mikey was fired they had to redo all of their recommendations for what Josh was looking for. in a 3 month or less time frame.


bigger
faster
stronger
smarter
versatile


all meant for the spread offense that ran PBS verses ZBS.
not to mention the 3-4 defense players opposed to 4-3.

SO in a sense start over. for many players they scouted were no longer Someone we were interested in. anyone on D expect DBs perhaps .

but the LB and DL types had to now be re looked at for 3-4 positions.

how many of those kids could be converted I think we can all agree that our scouting department had very few if any DL players in the quiver because except for one year we never drafted any.

SO what ever the scouts had probably got shit canned and the started over with players that might have worked int eh new schemes.

I also suspect they were fired just before the draft because they flat could not 'get" what Josh was looking for.

Does that excuse what some say was a poor draft? I think it had to have played a BIG part in it.

[jhildebrand]

OK let me state this again.

yep we had what most thought at the time was a solid group of players.

BUT they were evaluating for mikeys mind set.

when mikey was fired they had to redo all of their recommendations for what Josh was looking for. in a 3 month or less time frame.


bigger
faster
stronger
smarter
versatile


all meant for the spread offense that ran PBS verses ZBS.
not to mention the 3-4 defense players opposed to 4-3.

SO in a sense start over. for many players they scouted were no longer Someone we were interested in. anyone on D expect DBs perhaps .

but the LB and DL types had to now be re looked at for 3-4 positions.

how many of those kids could be converted I think we can all agree that our scouting department had very few if any DL players in the quiver because except for one year we never drafted any.

SO what ever the scouts had probably got shit canned and the started over with players that might have worked int eh new schemes.

I also suspect they were fired just before the draft because they flat could not 'get" what Josh was looking for.

Does that excuse what some say was a poor draft? I think it had to have played a BIG part in it.

None of that explains why they would trade a future first for Alphonso. In fact, if anything, the fact that they traded that pick for Phons says something to the opposite. The FO obviously felt very good about Alphonso.

Finally, scheme changes and all (that same excuse we keep hearing) CB prospects don't change much when it comes to evaluation.

This pick is egg on the face of McD no ways around it.

[Bosco]

None of that explains why they would trade a future first for Alphonso. In fact, if anything, the fact that they traded that pick for Phons says something to the opposite. The FO obviously felt very good about Alphonso.

Finally, scheme changes and all (that same excuse we keep hearing) CB prospects don't change much when it comes to evaluation.

This pick is egg on the face of McD no ways around it.

I think it's real simple. They felt they absolutely needed a corner, panicked a bit, and made a questionable trade to secure a prospect they liked. A rookie mistake made by a young coach and scouting staff.

Judging by the way they were wheeling and dealing this year, I doubt they'll be making that mistake again.

[bcbronc]

None of that explains why they would trade a future first for Alphonso. In fact, if anything, the fact that they traded that pick for Phons says something to the opposite. The FO obviously felt very good about Alphonso.

Finally, scheme changes and all (that same excuse we keep hearing) CB prospects don't change much when it comes to evaluation.

This pick is egg on the face of McD no ways around it.

Obviuosly hind site shows McD took a gamble that didn't pay off. At the time of the draft McDaniel's said they had Phonz rated a top 3 CB in the draft. Go look at when the third CB is taken in most drafts. Iirc its usually around the 20th pick, give or take a few spots any given year.

So McDaniels gambled they'd be given up a pick in the 20s to get a guy they had rated to go around that area. And let's be honest, there wouldn't be as much outrage if we traded the #20 for the #37 but it didn't turn out that way. C'est la vie.

The thing is, I'd still rather be aggressive and go after the guy at the top of your draft board than be passive and be happy with whoever falls. Yes you have to be smart about it and try to play the board as best you can, but at the end of the day I'd rather go get the guy McD and co rank highest than make do with whatever falls to you. It didn't work out this time, and McD was probably a little over optimistic about the team he inherited, but nothing ventured nothing gained as they say.
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[TXBRONC]

None of that explains why they would trade a future first for Alphonso. In fact, if anything, the fact that they traded that pick for Phons says something to the opposite. The FO obviously felt very good about Alphonso.

Finally, scheme changes and all (that same excuse we keep hearing) CB prospects don't change much when it comes to evaluation.

This pick is egg on the face of McD no ways around it.


Obviuosly hind site shows McD took a gamble that didn't pay off. At the time of the draft McDaniel's said they had Phonz rated a top 3 CB in the draft. Go look at when the third CB is taken in most drafts. Iirc its usually around the 20th pick, give or take a few spots any given year.

So McDaniels gambled they'd be given up a pick in the 20s to get a guy they had rated to go around that area. And let's be honest, there wouldn't be as much outrage if we traded the #20 for the #37 but it didn't turn out that way. C'est la vie.

The thing is, I'd still rather be aggressive and go after the guy at the top of your draft board than be passive and be happy with whoever falls. Yes you have to be smart about it and try to play the board as best you can, but at the end of the day I'd rather go get the guy McD and co rank highest than make do with whatever falls to you. It didn't work out this time, and McD was probably a little over optimistic about the team he inherited, but nothing ventured nothing gained as they say.
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It was bad pick and he (McDaniels) spent a lot to get him. Any coach can make a mistake like. Being aggresive isn't a bad but you still have to be smart about you're doing. No I'm saying McDaniels is stupid.

Bc with all due respect the argument that McDaniels was overly optimistic about the players he inherited goes contrary to what he did. He overturned what about a 1/3 maybe little more of the roster he inherited? 8 starters on defense alone were give the boot (I think). When you that many changes to the rosters that showing a lot of confidence in the roster that you inherited imho.

At the end of the day it was a mistake that he's trying rectify. He's going to make more drafting mistakes as time goes because ALL coaches make mistakes but hopefully he wont make one in this manner again.

[TXBRONC]

Obviuosly hind site shows McD took a gamble that didn't pay off. At the time of the draft McDaniel's said they had Phonz rated a top 3 CB in the draft. Go look at when the third CB is taken in most drafts. Iirc its usually around the 20th pick, give or take a few spots any given year.

So McDaniels gambled they'd be given up a pick in the 20s to get a guy they had rated to go around that area. And let's be honest, there wouldn't be as much outrage if we traded the #20 for the #37 but it didn't turn out that way. C'est la vie.

The thing is, I'd still rather be aggressive and go after the guy at the top of your draft board than be passive and be happy with whoever falls. Yes you have to be smart about it and try to play the board as best you can, but at the end of the day I'd rather go get the guy McD and co rank highest than make do with whatever falls to you. It didn't work out this time, and McD was probably a little over optimistic about the team he inherited, but nothing ventured nothing gained as they say.
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There is no need to crucify McDaniels this article hits the nail on the head the fallacy of trading a number one pick for something other than a number one pick.

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_16001598

Analysis: Broncos gambled and lost on cornerback Smith
By Jeff Legwold
The Denver Post
Posted: 09/06/2010 01:00:00 AM MDT

Of all the adjustments the Broncos made to their roster in recent days, none was discussed more by folks in the NFL than the decision to send cornerback Alphonso Smith on his way.

The Broncos traded Smith to the Lions on Saturday for tight end Dan Gronkowski.

Denver coach Josh McDaniels rolled the dice in the 2009 draft to acquire Smith, a former Wake Forest star who has yet to play to the NFL level many teams, including the Broncos, believed he could reach. The Broncos traded a first-round pick in the 2010 draft to move up in the second round last year and select Smith.

Now they have shipped out Smith for a tight end projected to have a receiving role. Gronkowski, who has one catch in two games in his NFL career, had two stints on the Lions' practice squad last season as a rookie.

Some NFL scouts believed the 5-foot-9 Smith would always have trouble playing in a league in which the wide receivers seem to be getting bigger all the time. I thought the skills he had shown in college — he set an Atlantic Coast Conference record for career interceptions (21) — would translate to the NFL and he could have impact as a starter.

I ranked him 18th in my top 100 prospects before the 2009 draft and had about as many teams tell me that was a nice projection as told me it was way too high.

But in his time with the Broncos, whether he couldn't adjust to expectations or criticism, or didn't work as hard as he needed to, Smith never played with the confidence he had once shown — even in practice.

Rarely did he challenge wide receivers as he did at Wake Forest, battling for the ball. Perhaps he was worried about making mistakes, but Smith always said he wasn't worried and didn't lose confidence. Perhaps he found himself behind the likes of Champ Bailey and André Goodman and saw a long road to the starting lineup on Denver's defense.

Long before Saturday's trade, there were large signs the Broncos were ready to move on without Smith. They signed Nate Jones in free agency, basically to play the position Smith was projected to play. Then the Broncos selected Oklahoma State cornerback Perrish Cox in the April draft, taking a chance on a player who had been suspended for his final college game and was not allowed to participate in his school's pro day. The Broncos used another draft pick on Syd'Quan Thompson, a cornerback.

If the Broncos made a mistake believing Smith could become a starter, they made a bigger one with the trade they pulled off to acquire him. Teams should always think twice about trading a first-round pick, especially if they're doing it to move up in any round that's not the first round.

It's difficult to make that add up on a draft chart, and this one didn't add up on the one most teams use on draft day. First-round picks are premium picks and most NFL personnel folks believe they should be handled with care.

Jeff Legwold: 303-954-2359 or jlegwold@denverpost.com

[jhildebrand]

It was bad pick and he (McDaniels) spent a lot to get him. Any coach can make a mistake like. Being aggresive isn't a bad but you still have to be smart about you're doing.

I agree. The other poster was trying to insinuate that this bad pick was due in part to only having three months to scout and prepare a draft board. If they were so far behind the 8 ball as insinuated, why make that trade? :confused:

They were confident and felt like Alph was their guy. They were wrong but they didn't make that move out of a lack of preparedness.

At least in the end they rectified their mistake even though they got NO VALUE.



Bc with all due respect the argument that McDaniels was overly optimistic about the players he inherited goes contrary to what he did. He overturned what about a 1/3 maybe little more of the roster he inherited? 8 starters on defense alone were give the boot (I think). When you that many changes to the rosters that showing a lot of confidence in the roster that you inherited imho.

He changed 39 of 53 players in year one. Even more in year two. I don't fault the guy for moving guys from the previous regime. I do have a problem when he moves a guy like Scheffler, a TE, to Detroit and then trades what is basically a #14 pick to Detroit for a 7th round TE who isn't nearly on the level of Scheffler.

I like McD's FA pick ups but his draft picks have yet to show a lot.



At the end of the day it was a mistake that he's trying rectify. He's going to make more drafting mistakes as time goes because ALL coaches make mistakes but hopefully he wont make one in this manner again.

Couldn't agree with you more. :beer:

[jhildebrand]

Obviuosly hind site shows McD took a gamble that didn't pay off. At the time of the draft McDaniel's said they had Phonz rated a top 3 CB in the draft. Go look at when the third CB is taken in most drafts. Iirc its usually around the 20th pick, give or take a few spots any given year.

So McDaniels gambled they'd be given up a pick in the 20s to get a guy they had rated to go around that area. And let's be honest, there wouldn't be as much outrage if we traded the #20 for the #37 but it didn't turn out that way. C'est la vie.

The thing is, I'd still rather be aggressive and go after the guy at the top of your draft board than be passive and be happy with whoever falls. Yes you have to be smart about it and try to play the board as best you can, but at the end of the day I'd rather go get the guy McD and co rank highest than make do with whatever falls to you. It didn't work out this time, and McD was probably a little over optimistic about the team he inherited, but nothing ventured nothing gained as they say.
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That's a fair and optimistic way to look at things. I just think many, even at the time, questioned McD's assessment of Alphonso and how his game would translate to the nfl.

For me I am done with it. Like I said earlier, at least McD shuttled him off unlike Shanahan with Moss.

[spikerman]

The whole issue with me is that no matter what you think about McDaniels, if you're going to be in his corner no matter what - like some are, or if you're going to be against him no matter what - like others, if he wasn't comfortable with his draft preparation he should not have wasted future picks to take chances on "projects". Hell, if nothing else trade the picks for future picks when you had the time to prepare.

No matter what reasons people suspect (and let's be honest none of us really know) the Goodmans were fired, imo it was an extremely boneheaded move to fire the top of the scouting department so soon before the draft. That move alone just reeked of amateurism from the Broncos' braintrust.

[BroncoWave]

The whole issue with me is that no matter what you think about McDaniels, if you're going to be in his corner no matter what - like some are, or if you're going to be against him no matter what - like others, if he wasn't comfortable with his draft preparation he should not have wasted future picks to take chances on "projects". Hell, if nothing else trade the picks for future picks when you had the time to prepare.

No matter what reasons people suspect (and let's be honest none of us really know) the Goodmans were fired, imo it was an extremely boneheaded move to fire the top of the scouting department so soon before the draft. That move alone just reeked of amateurism from the Broncos' braintrust.

Do you not think it's fair to say that at that point he could have THOUGHT he was well-prepared for that draft and then in hindsight a year later he realized how unprepared he was? Just because he brought up around this year's draft that he was unprepared for last year's doesn't necessarily mean he felt that way last year.

Very rarely when we make mistakes do we realize we are making them as they are taking place. If so, we would make much fewer mistakes.

[spikerman]

Do you not think it's fair to say that at that point he could have THOUGHT he was well-prepared for that draft and then in hindsight a year later he realized how unprepared he was? Just because he brought up around this year's draft that he was unprepared for last year's doesn't necessarily mean he felt that way last year.

Very rarely when we make mistakes do we realize we are making them as they are taking place. If so, we would make much fewer mistakes.

That's possible, but "NFL people" were already questioning the wisdom of firing the Goodmans at that time. It seems like there were a few people in the league who realized they were making a mistake.

If they didn't realize what the position they were putting themselves in, instead of questioning their preparedness maybe we should be questioning their judgement.

[Lonestar]

That's a fair and optimistic way to look at things. I just think many, even at the time, questioned McD's assessment of Alphonso and how his game would translate to the nfl.

For me I am done with it. Like I said earlier, at least McD shuttled him off unlike Shanahan with Moss.

I still belive that in the ciaos of that draft. Short on time, trying to get the scouts on the same page, getting his coaches tuned and on board.

Thinking that every playr taken WAS going to be a home run WAS optomistic at best.

I also believe that hanging all the blame on Josh like some are trying to do is wrong. He is responsible because he WAS the head coach.

But let's not kid oursleves into thinking that it WAS his choice alone

The scouts had to feed the coaching staff the info and film, the position coaches had to sigb of on smith. I also suspect that someone stated he WAS the 3rd best CB or ranked him that way. Or Josh would not have said it.

Wa s Josh ultimately responsible? absolutely.
Wa s he the only one in the decision making process? That I doubt without hesitstion.

As for getting rid of TS. You get rid of cancers on a TEAM regardless of talent.

Since a rec TE is not hugh need in this O getting something in return is better than cutting smith outright.

If they did shop him this just might have been the best they could get.
And the new guy just might be better than what he has shown to date.

IIRC branson WAS also injured in that last game and they wanted insurance. But I could be wrong there.
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[turftoad]

OK let me state this again.

yep we had what most thought at the time was a solid group of players.

BUT they were evaluating for mikeys mind set.

when mikey was fired they had to redo all of their recommendations for what Josh was looking for. in a 3 month or less time frame.


bigger
faster
stronger
smarter
versatile

all meant for the spread offense that ran PBS verses ZBS.
not to mention the 3-4 defense players opposed to 4-3.

SO in a sense start over. for many players they scouted were no longer Someone we were interested in. anyone on D expect DBs perhaps .

but the LB and DL types had to now be re looked at for 3-4 positions.

how many of those kids could be converted I think we can all agree that our scouting department had very few if any DL players in the quiver because except for one year we never drafted any.

SO what ever the scouts had probably got shit canned and the started over with players that might have worked int eh new schemes.

I also suspect they were fired just before the draft because they flat could not 'get" what Josh was looking for.

Does that excuse what some say was a poor draft? I think it had to have played a BIG part in it.

I guess I don't understand. :confused:

Sooo... Shanahan was looking for:

* Smaller
* Slower
* Weaker
* Dumber
* Non Athletic

Type guys? :whoknows:

[spikerman]

I guess I don't understand. :confused:

Sooo... Shanahan was looking for:

* Smaller
* Slower
* Weaker
* Dumber
* Non Athletic

Type guys? :whoknows:

Have you not been paying attention? Of course that's what he was looking for and all of the busts that were brought in during his time were because Shanahan alone decided that he wanted them here. Of course, the players that haven't worked out since McDaniels got here were because he was given bad advice or talked into it. You're a mod - try to keep up. :D

So to summarize:

Problems during Shanahan's tenure - totally his fault.

Problems during McDaniels' tenure - Pretty much somebody (anybody) else's fault

[turftoad]

Have you not been paying attention? Of course that's what he was looking for and all of the busts that were brought in during his time were because Shanahan alone decided that he wanted them here. Of course, the players that haven't worked out since McDaniels got here were because he was given bad advice or talked into it. You're a mod - try to keep up. :D

So to summarize:

Problems during Shanahan's tenure - totally his fault.

Problems during McDaniels' tenure - Pretty much somebody (anybody) else's fault

Jeeez, sorry.

It's wonder that that guy won two Superbowls. ;)

[spikerman]

Jeeez, sorry.

It's wonder that that guy won two Superbowls. ;)

Just exactly how will probably remain one of the great mysteries. Up there with Bigfoot and the Loch Ness Monster.

[jhildebrand]

I still belive that in the ciaos of that draft. Short on time, trying to get the scouts on the same page, getting his coaches tuned and on board.


I only part with you, JR, on the idea of making the move at all knowing all the limitations and obstacles they were facing in that particular draft. All the things you have mentioned are reasons NOT to make that deal.

Again, like another poster pointed out, you gotta like the fact that McD had the conviction to make the move as opposed to waiting for the player to fall to him etc...

I also like the fact they cut their losses immediately and moved on.

[Lonestar]

The whole issue with me is that no matter what you think about McDaniels, if you're going to be in his corner no matter what - like some are, or if you're going to be against him no matter what - like others, if he wasn't comfortable with his draft preparation he should not have wasted future picks to take chances on "projects". Hell, if nothing else trade the picks for future picks when you had the time to prepare.

No matter what reasons people suspect (and let's be honest none of us really know) the Goodmans were fired, imo it was an extremely boneheaded move to fire the top of the scouting department so soon before the draft. That move alone just reeked of amateurism from the Broncos' braintrust.

Again no one really knows why they were fired for sure.

But I suspect that Josh did not feel that they were giving him what he needed.

If that is true the why wait till after the draft? If he felt they were feeding him crap they would have continued to do so up to and maybe even draft day.

to say the very least the they were not on the same page, goodmans used to looking for mikeys schemes and then at all most the last minute having to look for players that fit Joshes scheme.

The HC should have people on staff that he can trust and will work ONLY for him. Not saying they were not, but there was friction IIRC from the younger goodman causing issues in the FO. That is something that can't happen regardless of when it happened.

[Lonestar]

I guess I don't understand. :confused:

Sooo... Shanahan was looking for:

* Smaller
* Slower
* Weaker
* Dumber
* Non Athletic

Type guys? :whoknows:

who knows what mikey was looking for, but apparently the ones left on the roster certainly were not what Josh was needing.

So the scouts who dug up those past players especially those on Defense well was it mikey or the scouts. I guess we will never really know.

[Lonestar]

Have you not been paying attention? Of course that's what he was looking for and all of the busts that were brought in during his time were because Shanahan alone decided that he wanted them here. Of course, the players that haven't worked out since McDaniels got here were because he was given bad advice or talked into it. You're a mod - try to keep up. :D

So to summarize:

Problems during Shanahan's tenure - totally his fault.

Problems during McDaniels' tenure - Pretty much somebody (anybody) else's fault


Certainly they were mikeys fault it is not like he only had 3 months each year to be ready for the draft. for the most part in his stay in Denver his drafts were for crap till goodmans came and then rankly I'm not so sure they did mikey an favors for rating jay, TS in particular so highly.

Everyone thought 06 was a great draft but yet we only have two players that is still with the team two GUYs that wanted to PLAY TEAM ball. Neither of which were day one picks.

I guess that it will always be a mikey verses Josh.

I was ecstatic that mikey was fired after all of the years of ineptitude in player acquisition.

While for the first few years I also stood behind my coach, until I opened my eyes and realized that it was the lousy players he acquired in the draft was the reason he was held back from winning. That his brilliance in game planning was handcuffed by the stiffs he got on draft day and in some cases as FA.

Now I have moved on like many others have and embrace the new guy warts and all. Hoping that he will be better than mikey turned out to be, mediocre.

[Ravage!!!]

:lol: :lol: :lol: ...

[Lonestar]

Jeeez, sorry.

It's wonder that that guy won two Superbowls. ;)

Not at all but then he did have some HOF talent on the team at the time to get it for him. Once they retired he had an occasional day one draft choice that was worth a crap and folks that is what you build your team on DAY ONE PICKS.

He was a brilliant OC, beyond that I'm not so sure.

[turftoad]

Certainly they were mikeys fault it is not like he only had 3 months each year to be ready for the draft. for the most part in his stay in Denver his drafts were for crap till goodmans came and then rankly I'm not so sure they did mikey an favors for rating jay, TS in particular so highly.

Everyone thought 06 was a great draft but yet we only have two players that is still with the team two GUYs that wanted to PLAY TEAM ball. Neither of which were day one picks.

I guess that it will always be a mikey verses Josh.

I was ecstatic that mikey was fired after all of the years of ineptitude in player acquisition.

While for the first few years I also stood behind my coach, until I opened my eyes and realized that it was the lousy players he acquired in the draft was the reason he was held back from winning. That his brilliance in game planning was handcuffed by the stiffs he got on draft day and in some cases as FA.

Now I have moved on like many others have and embrace the new guy warts and all. Hoping that he will be better than mikey turned out to be, mediocre.

I won't embrace him until he DESERVES to be embraced.

I do not like his attitude/ego or the way he gets along with players or his personel moves.

I wish him luck because he coach's my team but will critisize him when I feel needed.

At this point he has done nothing to want me to embrace him.

[I Eat Staples]

Obviuosly hind site shows McD took a gamble that didn't pay off. At the time of the draft McDaniel's said they had Phonz rated a top 3 CB in the draft. Go look at when the third CB is taken in most drafts. Iirc its usually around the 20th pick, give or take a few spots any given year.

So McDaniels gambled they'd be given up a pick in the 20s to get a guy they had rated to go around that area. And let's be honest, there wouldn't be as much outrage if we traded the #20 for the #37 but it didn't turn out that way. C'est la vie.

The thing is, I'd still rather be aggressive and go after the guy at the top of your draft board than be passive and be happy with whoever falls. Yes you have to be smart about it and try to play the board as best you can, but at the end of the day I'd rather go get the guy McD and co rank highest than make do with whatever falls to you. It didn't work out this time, and McD was probably a little over optimistic about the team he inherited, but nothing ventured nothing gained as they say.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

Yeah, that's all great, the problem is that McD can't evaluate talent or value.


Do you not think it's fair to say that at that point he could have THOUGHT he was well-prepared for that draft and then in hindsight a year later he realized how unprepared he was? Just because he brought up around this year's draft that he was unprepared for last year's doesn't necessarily mean he felt that way last year.

Very rarely when we make mistakes do we realize we are making them as they are taking place. If so, we would make much fewer mistakes.

Of course he thought he was prepared, his ego gets in the way of his logic. At least he admitted he wasn't prepared afterwards, but judging by the Tebow pick, he still doesn't understand talent or value.

[I Eat Staples]

I won't embrace him until he DESERVES to be embraced.

I do not like his attitude/ego or the way he gets along with players or his personel moves.

I wish him luck because he coach's my team but will critisize him when I feel needed.

At this point he has done nothing to want me to embrace him.

Exactly how I feel. The reason I'm a perpetual pessimist about him is because he hasn't done a damn thing that I agree with. He's made bold and aggressive decisions and completely remade our team. He hasn't done anything that looked like a good decision to me at the time, therefore the only way my opinion will change is if he proves me wrong by turning those decisions into playoff wins.

[Lonestar]

I only part with you, JR, on the idea of making the move at all knowing all the limitations and obstacles they were facing in that particular draft. All the things you have mentioned are reasons NOT to make that deal.

Again, like another poster pointed out, you gotta like the fact that McD had the conviction to make the move as opposed to waiting for the player to fall to him etc...

I also like the fact they cut their losses immediately and moved on.

Perhaps YOU are correct about waiting till the next round or passing altogether.

But also they might have had such glowing reports on him and with the impending departure of Champ and Goodman was like this years Tebows choice to good to pass up.

We will never KNOW what went down in the war room.

Was it the DB's coach that hounded him to get him, was it the scouts saying he is a can't miss or did Josh just make the decision without input, because the guy is a midget CB and he wanted someone on the team shorter than he is.:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:.

As I have said before for a long time day one choices are the back bone of the team and SHOULD be/have all pro potential.

Does it happen every year with every team? No but I would like it to happen to us every year, for the past decade it was a long drought. the law of averages has to catch up sometime.

[Lonestar]

I won't embrace him until he DESERVES to be embraced.

I do not like his attitude/ego or the way he gets along with players or his personnel moves.

I wish him luck because he coach's my team but will criticize him when I feel needed.

At this point he has done nothing to want me to embrace him.

you are entitled to your opine just as I am with Josh or mikey.

I cut my loses with mike years ago and am glad he is gone. as IMO he was no better in his handling of players than what you are asking Josh to be.

But what I fail to understand is why your critical of Josh, but gave mikey a pass for all of those years. Or were you angry as I was on all of his fubars dealing with players.

[BeefStew25]

I am going to start calling McD 'Joshy'.

[spikerman]

Again no one really knows why they were fired for sure.

But I suspect that Josh did not feel that they were giving him what he needed. That's just it. NOBODY knows why they were fired. You assume it was because the Goodmans were lacking in something because thinking otherwise would mean that maybe McDaniels made a mistake somewhere.



If that is true the why wait till after the draft? If he felt they were feeding him crap they would have continued to do so up to and maybe even draft day. This is still based on your assumption which can't be proven one way or the other.



to say the very least the they were not on the same page, goodmans used to looking for mikeys schemes and then at all most the last minute having to look for players that fit Joshes scheme.

The HC should have people on staff that he can trust and will work ONLY for him. Not saying they were not, but there was friction IIRC from the younger goodman causing issues in the FO. That is something that can't happen regardless of when it happened.

You're right, they obviously weren't on the same page. For all we know though, it may have been because the Goodmans were trying to keep McDaniels from using the first round to reach for "projects" and he didn't like that. Obviously I don't know what really happened, but that's the point - Nobody outside of the Broncos does. I'm just not automatically willing to assume that McDaniels was blameless in the whole thing.

[spikerman]

Certainly they were mikeys fault it is not like he only had 3 months each year to be ready for the draft. for the most part in his stay in Denver his drafts were for crap till goodmans came and then rankly I'm not so sure they did mikey an favors for rating jay, TS in particular so highly. I just think that if you're going to blame a person in a certain position you should be consistent. Fine, blame Shanahan for the personnel moves. There were quite a few of his that I didn't like either, but if the buck stopped with him, it damn well stops with McDaniels too. This whole "he only had 3 months to get ready" stuff doesn't excuse him. A lot of the changes he made were "self-inflicted" wounds. If he knew he wasn't prepared for the draft he could have tried to stockpile future picks or draft conservatively. Or, he could have waited a season to try to overhaul the roster. Typically a team shouldn't draft for need, but if you don't have a good handle on what you're doing it might not be a bad idea.


Everyone thought 06 was a great draft but yet we only have two players that is still with the team two GUYs that wanted to PLAY TEAM ball. Neither of which were day one picks.
They are not on the team, not from a lack of talent, but from personality conflicts with the coach. Most of them are still legitimate NFL players.



I guess that it will always be a mikey verses Josh.

I was ecstatic that mikey was fired after all of the years of ineptitude in player acquisition.

While for the first few years I also stood behind my coach, until I opened my eyes and realized that it was the lousy players he acquired in the draft was the reason he was held back from winning. That his brilliance in game planning was handcuffed by the stiffs he got on draft day and in some cases as FA.

Now I have moved on like many others have and embrace the new guy warts and all. Hoping that he will be better than mikey turned out to be, mediocre. This isn't about "Mikey vs. Josh" oooops, er, sorry Beef - "Mikey vs. Joshy". It's about being consistent. I hold McDaniels to the same standard I held Shanahan. Of course Shanahan should be given a little more leeway. He's a proven winner as an NFL head coach, where McDaniels is not. You seem very willing to excuse or deflect the same types of suspect decisions by McDaniels that you found unforgivable from Shanahan.

[Tned]

I am going to start calling McD 'Joshy'.

Don't capitalize it, because that shows too much respect.

[Lonestar]

That's just it. NOBODY knows why they were fired. You assume it was because the Goodmans were lacking in something because thinking otherwise would mean that maybe McDaniels made a mistake somewhere.

This is still based on your assumption which can't be proven one way or the other.



You're right, they obviously weren't on the same page. For all we know though, it may have been because the Goodmans were trying to keep McDaniels from using the first round to reach for "projects" and he didn't like that. Obviously I don't know what really happened, but that's the point - Nobody outside of the Broncos does. I'm just not automatically willing to assume that McDaniels was blameless in the whole thing.


I guess it comes down to I have ran businesses from 5 employees to 250+

I had to ahve folks that I trusted to do the job the way either the comapny wanted it done or to my standards.

I changed jobs 10 to 12 times each time getting promoted, each time having to go in and evaluate employees and transferring or firing those that could not meet the standards set forth. either as company (AVIS RAC) standards or standards I set up when I owned my own business.

You have to have people you trust to do the job other wise you have to micro manage and be there all the time.. I figured out about 8 years into my AVIS career that I wanted to see my wife and son more than I did the folks at work.

Because of this I see the problems that have happened at Dove Valley perhaps with a different POV than many here do.

You have to have the right guys in teh right spots to get the overall job done.

Perhaps Josh saw them as:


being to loyal to mikey.
to ingrained in what mikey wanted .
not able to grasp what he was looking for.


Maybe he should have cut them loose when he entered the building because they not his guys. But that IMHO would have placed him at a BIGGER disadvantage going into the draft than we were. At least we had some eyes and film on players even if they were not "just right".

I think that Josh was told he could replace everyone, but was encouraged to keep bates, Turner and Dennison and I suspect the Goodmans, as the older one was promoted to HALF GM. But then found out it was not working as the younger one was pushing himself around thinking that dad could protect him. At least that was what I had heard. so when they decided to fire sonny they also thought Dad would not deal with it well. So he had to go also. that was how I heard it but then that may be wrong.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

As to the whole McDaniels vs the Goodmans thing, I just think he wanted his own guys. He pretty much cleaned house except for Dennison and Turner (now gone). That's fine. Now he has to produce with his FO and his team. That's how I'll measure his success, not by how successful or not the prior regime was.

[Lonestar]

I just think that if you're going to blame a person in a certain position you should be consistent. Fine, blame Shanahan for the personnel moves. There were quite a few of his that I didn't like either, but if the buck stopped with him, it damn well stops with McDaniels too. This whole "he only had 3 months to get ready" stuff doesn't excuse him. A lot of the changes he made were "self-inflicted" wounds. If he knew he wasn't prepared for the draft he could have tried to stockpile future picks or draft conservatively. Or, he could have waited a season to try to overhaul the roster. Typically a team shouldn't draft for need, but if you don't have a good handle on what you're doing it might not be a bad idea.


They are not on the team, not from a lack of talent, but from personality conflicts with the coach. Most of them are still legitimate NFL players.

This isn't about "Mikey vs. Josh" oooops, er, sorry Beef - "Mikey vs. Joshy". It's about being consistent. I hold McDaniels to the same standard I held Shanahan. Of course Shanahan should be given a little more leeway. He's a proven winner as an NFL head coach, where McDaniels is not. You seem very willing to excuse or deflect the same types of suspect decisions by McDaniels that you found unforgivable from Shanahan.

NOT sure were I have said that Josh was not responsible for the picks made or decisions about players.

I KNOW that mikey was responsible as he had no REASONS not to have his own folks in place over those 14 years.


As for Josh IF in 14th year there are mistakes still being made I will be on his ass like I was with mikey.

Pretty simple I gave mikey the benefit of doubt till about the year ashely was drafted after that I held no prisoners when talking about him.

I intend to hold Josh to the same standards I did mikey just not going to hang him out to dry until he has the same grace period I gave mikey, seems only fair to me.


How about you? fair to give him the same standards that mikey had?

I think that if you will ask any one that has known me on the other forum that they will tell you that I stuck up for the ashley draft until I had a chance to see him play Professionally .

As I had seen him in college lay an ass whipping on UTEP (was at that game) amassing a bunch of yards and TD's on my home team. some 300 yards and 4 or 5 TDs . But then it took me awhile to realize that his college skills against "WAC" DB's meant squat in the NFL.

So that was about the time I started looking at his DAFT choices.

When and IF Josh is as consistently bad (as mikey was) with DAY ONE picks then I'll jump on your bandwagon. Till then he gets a pass. Fair to you?

[Tned]

So that was about the time I started looking at his DAFT choices.


DAFT choices, that's hilarious :laugh: :lol: :laugh: Reminds me of a Town Hall thread I was just reading... :laugh: :lol: :laugh:

[spikerman]

NOT sure were I have said that Josh was not responsible for the picks made or decisions about players.

I KNOW that mikey was responsible as he had no REASONS not to have his own folks in place over those 14 years.


As for Josh IF in 14th year there are mistakes still being made I will be on his ass like I was with mikey.

Pretty simple I gave mikey the benefit of doubt till about the year ashely was drafted after that I held no prisoners when talking about him.

I intend to hold Josh to the same standards I did mikey just not going to hang him out to dry until he has the same grace period I gave mikey, seems only fair to me.


How about you? fair to give him the same standards that mikey had?

I think that if you will ask any one that has known me on the other forum that they will tell you that I stuck up for the ashley draft until I had a chance to see him play Professionally .

As I had seen him in college lay an ass whipping on UTEP (was at that game) amassing a bunch of yards and TD's on my home team. some 300 yards and 4 or 5 TDs . But then it took me awhile to realize that his college skills against "WAC" DB's meant squat in the NFL.

So that was about the time I started looking at his DAFT choices.

When and IF Josh is as consistently bad (as mikey was) with DAY ONE picks then I'll jump on your bandwagon. Till then he gets a pass. Fair to you?

You're completely misreading me. I'm not on any bandwagon. Ultimately I want McDaniels to be successful because I want the Broncos to be successful. If you think McDaniels should be held to the same standard as Shanahan, that's fair enough. I guess anything less than a 13-3 record and a playoff birth this year would look bad for McDaniels.

Again, I know it sounds like all I'm doing is sticking up for Shanahan, but what I'm really after is some consistency. Shanahan's first few years the team showed improvement and the results were obvious. I just don't see how McDaniels has made the Broncos better so far. Hopefully it will work out and our team will surprise some people this year - me included.

[Tned]

As to the whole McDaniels vs the Goodmans thing, I just think he wanted his own guys. He pretty much cleaned house except for Dennison and Turner (now gone). That's fine. Now he has to produce with his FO and his team. That's how I'll measure his success, not by how successful or not the prior regime was.

Yep, some posters are living in the past, I choose to live in the present. I think McDaniels (joshy as some would call him) has done a pretty good job overall, but a lot remains to be seen. He has a good defense on paper, but an old defense. He has a young core on offense with lots of potential, but only time will tell if he can get those to units producing enough to win and win soon.

It's fine to blindly defend the coach and organization, but other than providing a means to pass time on MB's like BF, it doesn't mean squat. Winning is all that matters.

[I Eat Staples]

I just don't see how McDaniels has made the Broncos better so far.

He hasn't. Losing talent doesn't make a team better. Wasting draft picks doesn't make a team better.

[Northman]

You're completely misreading me. I'm not on any bandwagon. Ultimately I want McDaniels to be successful because I want the Broncos to be successful. If you think McDaniels should be held to the same standard as Shanahan, that's fair enough. I guess anything less than a 13-3 record and a playoff birth this year would look bad for McDaniels.

Again, I know it sounds like all I'm doing is sticking up for Shanahan, but what I'm really after is some consistency. Shanahan's first few years the team showed improvement and the results were obvious. I just don't see how McDaniels has made the Broncos better so far. Hopefully it will work out and our team will surprise some people this year - me included.

Hell, i would be happy with just a division title no matter the record. that would be a start for me as a fan.

[JDL]

That's just it. NOBODY knows why they were fired. You assume it was because the Goodmans were lacking in something because thinking otherwise would mean that maybe McDaniels made a mistake somewhere.

This is still based on your assumption which can't be proven one way or the other.



You're right, they obviously weren't on the same page. For all we know though, it may have been because the Goodmans were trying to keep McDaniels from using the first round to reach for "projects" and he didn't like that. Obviously I don't know what really happened, but that's the point - Nobody outside of the Broncos does. I'm just not automatically willing to assume that McDaniels was blameless in the whole thing.

The Goodman's were fired because Jr. and Rick Smith were up for the GM spot... there was a power struggle and Jr. lost, Sr. did not want to stay on after this as you might well understand. It is likely that the Goodman Jr. wanted not to trade Cutler or wanted to exert more control than McD wished. But we do know that this occurred and in fact we know that Bowlen flat out lied to everyone in Denver... he stated in no uncertain terms at the postseason press conference that Goodman was safe and would be with the team, then something happened... that something was probably the Cutler issue... or possibly the releasing of the OC... or a combination.


This was all very well reported so I'm not sure where the above is coming from, lack of paying attention? It is what it is and I am not saying who was right or wrong... but we know 1) Bowlen stated explicitly in a press conference Goodman would be with the team in a shared GM position ... something changed 2) a power struggle over the GM position occurred 3) Jim Goodman lost and was fired 4) his father was not fired, but chose not to stay on after those events. Those 4 things were clearly reported at the time.

[spikerman]

The Goodman's were fired because Jr. and Rick Smith were up for the GM spot... there was a power struggle and Jr. lost, Sr. did not want to stay on after this as you might well understand. It is likely that the Goodman Jr. wanted not to trade Cutler or wanted to exert more control than McD wished. But we do know that this occurred and in fact we know that Bowlen flat out lied to everyone in Denver... he stated in no uncertain terms at the postseason press conference that Goodman was safe and would be with the team, then something happened... that something was probably the Cutler issue... or possibly the releasing of the OC... or a combination.


This was all very well reported so I'm not sure where the above is coming from, lack of paying attention? It is what it is and I am not saying who was right or wrong... but we know 1) Bowlen stated explicitly in a press conference Goodman would be with the team in a shared GM position ... something changed 2) a power struggle over the GM position occurred 3) Jim Goodman lost and was fired 4) his father was not fired, but chose not to stay on after those events. Those 4 things were clearly reported at the time.

I remember Bowlen stating that the Goodmans would be staying on. I also remember that the younger Goodman was fired and the elder quit. I don't know that the reasons for the initial firing after Bowlen's statement have ever been publically announced, and they probably shouldn't be.

[Lonestar]

You're completely misreading me. I'm not on any bandwagon. Ultimately I want McDaniels to be successful because I want the Broncos to be successful. If you think McDaniels should be held to the same standard as Shanahan, that's fair enough. I guess anything less than a 13-3 record and a playoff birth this year would look bad for McDaniels.

Again, I know it sounds like all I'm doing is sticking up for Shanahan, but what I'm really after is some consistency. Shanahan's first few years the team showed improvement and the results were obvious. I just don't see how McDaniels has made the Broncos better so far. Hopefully it will work out and our team will surprise some people this year - me included.



I guess that I'm of the OPINE that coming in to a team with 3-6 HOF players on it tinkering with a few players here and there are HUGE differences than what Josh walked into.

mikey had a lot of base players still from the reeves administration, That he had coached or seen in the locker room. So there were FEW surprises there.

Not so with Josh, it was coming in like on a cold sales call. Not having a clue on what the response was going to be.


I'm not all that sure that Josh was left with anything like that. I also suspect that if you take a logical look at it that your going to see he was not.

Was there a lot of potential on the squad no doubt about it.

But that potential was for not only great play, but meteorically bad conduct and lack of TEAM play.

That is when you as a coach or boss have to make a fish or cut bait decision.

Been there, done that in all of my jobs. I fired a lot of folks and rehabilitated even more. All they needed were strict guidelines, of what was expected from them.. after each station rebuild, I was promoted to another project location.

Much like when Josh came to town, a new sheriff with new rules.

Like them or leave, many choose to bail because they could not handle the new rules of starting on the team.

[Ravage!!!]

TINKERING??? :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Lonestar]

The Goodman's were fired because Jr. and Rick Smith were up for the GM spot... there was a power struggle and Jr. lost, Sr. did not want to stay on after this as you might well understand. It is likely that the Goodman Jr. wanted not to trade Cutler or wanted to exert more control than McD wished. But we do know that this occurred and in fact we know that Bowlen flat out lied to everyone in Denver... he stated in no uncertain terms at the postseason press conference that Goodman was safe and would be with the team, then something happened... that something was probably the Cutler issue... or possibly the releasing of the OC... or a combination.


This was all very well reported so I'm not sure where the above is coming from, lack of paying attention? It is what it is and I am not saying who was right or wrong... but we know 1) Bowlen stated explicitly in a press conference Goodman would be with the team in a shared GM position ... something changed 2) a power struggle over the GM position occurred 3) Jim Goodman lost and was fired 4) his father was not fired, but chose not to stay on after those events. Those 4 things were clearly reported at the time.


I had remembered that the older Goodman was promoted to Co-GM with Xman and much later the son was throwing his daddies weight around and that was where the rub was.

they were going to fire the younger Goodman over the FO issue and because they did not think the other could deal with it they let him go also.

Xman came out as the sole GM, reporting to Pat along with Josh and Joe as equals.

that is how I remember it.

[red98]

I guess that I'm of the OPINE that coming in to a team with 3-6 HOF players on it tinkering with a few players here and there are HUGE differences than what Josh walked into.

mikey had a lot of base players still from the reeves administration, That he had coached or seen in the locker room. So there were FEW surprises there.

Not so with Josh, it was coming in like on a cold sales call. Not having a clue on what the response was going to be.


I'm not all that sure that Josh was left with anything like that. I also suspect that if you take a logical look at it that your going to see he was not.

Was there a lot of potential on the squad no doubt about it.

But that potential was for not only great play, but meteorically bad conduct and lack of TEAM play.

That is when you as a coach or boss have to make a fish or cut bait decision.

Been there, done that in all of my jobs. I fired a lot of folks and rehabilitated even more. All they needed were strict guidelines, of what was expected from them.. after each station rebuild, I was promoted to another project location.

Much like when Joshy came to town, a new sheriff with new rules.

Like them or leave, many choose to bail because they could not handle the new rules of starting on the team.

So far there are exactly 2 Hall of Famers from that team. Sharpe should make 3 someday.

[Lonestar]

So far there are exactly 2 Hall of Famers from that team. Sharpe should make 3 someday.

Well lets just say there were 4-5 that will get votes for the HOF. and IF they had played in other cities like NY NE or BAL they would have gotten first ballot. but playing in the middle of NO where well that may indeed limit them.

We all know that while he played TD was the best RB in the league. # 4 and then there is the Kicker Elam who is unlikely to get there because there is only ONE in the HOF as we speak. But he does hold many records including the longest FG ever kicked.

It could also be said that Atwater could make it some day as he was one of the most dominant safeties of the times.

Rod Smith being the all time leader as a WR for an UDFA. has a decent chance also.


So one could say we actually had up wards of 7 pardon my mistake.
Lets just put it this way there are a BUNCH more talented guys that mikey inherited than what Josh did and leave it at that.

[Ravage!!!]

So far there are exactly 2 Hall of Famers from that team. Sharpe should make 3 someday.

I bet he doesn't mention the fact that Shanahan 'tinkered' by bringing in

Terrell Davis, John Mobley, Ed McCaffrey, Bill Romanowksi, Alfred Williams, Byron Chamberlain, Glenn Cadrez, Tony Jones, Crocket, Howard Griffith, Derrick Loville, Dan Neil, Neil Smith, Mark Schlereth, Keith Traylor (actually bringing him back after he left in 93), Trevor Price, Mike Lodish, David Diaz-Infante, Darien Gorden, Micheal Dean Perry, Detron Smith, Harry Swayne, Maa Tanuvasa, Vaughn Hebron, Bubby Brister... and although Rod Smith was on the practice squad, we all know who is the one that made Rod the player he became.

and those are just from '95 to '97. How many of those were either starting or had significant playing time in our SB wins? This is what he calls only "tinkering" with a few players.

[spikerman]

If I recall correctly, Shanahan's team drafted TD so he helped himself a little. As for the other guys, ie. Rod Smith and Shannon Sharpe, I believe that Shanahan helped to turn them into the great players they became.

Either way, when McDaniels took over, many NFL "experts" said Denver was the best job available because of all of the talent in place. The difference was that Shanahan did not come in and jettison the talent he inherited.

Ok, that's the last thing I'm going to say on the subject. I've already done way more than my part in completely derailing this thread. :salute:

[red98]

Lets just put it this way there are a BUNCH more talented guys that mikey inherited than what Josh did and leave it at that.


There is no evidence to support that statement. We don't know how the players joshy inherited are going to turn out.

Though we could say that Clady, Champ and maybe Marshall all have HOF potential.

[Tned]

Either way, when McDaniels took over, many NFL "experts" said Denver was the best job available because of all of the talent in place. The difference was that Shanahan did not come in and jettison the talent he inherited.


This is a statement worth quoting. Even joshy said that coming in and working with Jay and the rest of the talent was a big reason he liked Denver (something to that effect).

[Ravage!!!]

If I recall correctly, Shanahan's team drafted TD so he helped himself a little. As for the other guys, ie. Rod Smith and Shannon Sharpe, I believe that Shanahan helped to turn them into the great players they became.

Either way, when McDaniels took over, many NFL "experts" said Denver was the best job available because of all of the talent in place. The difference was that Shanahan did not come in and jettison the talent he inherited.

Ok, that's the last thing I'm going to say on the subject. I've already done way more than my part in completely derailing this thread. :salute:

Pro-bowl QB, top LT, RT, 2WRs and a young pass stretching TE. The offense was considered to be one of the top YOUNG up and coming offenses in the NFL. Its a hard 'sell' to say that he wasn't coming into and ideal situation when taking over this team.

[Lonestar]

This is a statement worth quoting. Even joshy said that coming in and working with Jay and the rest of the talent was a big reason he liked Denver (something to that effect).

do you really think he would say anything different .

Like wow I have this great opportunity to come to DEN and work with a bunch of head cases and ME players. Which is what it was.

Do you think he was not going to make sweeping changes once he got here?

Not sure how many other jobs he interviewed for before accepting this one but I'm guessing it was ZERO to or yes TB or DET or STL.

which of those would you have moved to.:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

[BeefStew25]

joshy, good luck this year

----------------------------
Sent from my senile brain via Blackberry

[Tned]

do you really think he would say anything different .

Like wow I have this great opportunity to come to DEN and work with a bunch of head cases and ME players. Which is what it was.

Do you think he was not going to make sweeping changes once he got here?

Not sure how many other jobs he interviewed for before accepting this one but I'm guessing it was ZERO to or yes TB or DET or STL.

which of those would you have moved to.:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

Oh, so your saying he's a liar. Gotcha. That clears a lot up.

[jhildebrand]

I guess that I'm of the OPINE that coming in to a team with 3-6 HOF players on it tinkering with a few players here and there are HUGE differences than what Josh walked into.

3 to 6 HOF'ers? :confused: Where? :confused:

That roster full of HOF'ers was 8-8 for two seasons under Phillips. How many SB's did they win under Reeves? :confused:




mikey had a lot of base players still from the reeves administration, That he had coached or seen in the locker room. So there were FEW surprises there.

Please! I think you are revising history here, Jr. Where did Tony Jones come from? Zimmerman? TD? Darien Gordon? Anthony Miller?

The fact is Shanahan made that HIS team by bringing in his GUYS! That is how he got the mastermind label! All of his pickups seemed to turn to gold.



Not so with Josh, it was coming in like on a cold sales call. Not having a clue on what the response was going to be.


I'm not all that sure that Josh was left with anything like that. I also suspect that if you take a logical look at it that your going to see he was not.

Was there a lot of potential on the squad no doubt about it.

Josh took over a team with its best LT ever, its best WR ever, its best CB ever. That is much more than potential.

[jhildebrand]

do you really think he would say anything different .


What would be so hard about it? :confused:

Plenty of coaches have come in and declared they would be cleaning house immediately.

[EMB6903]

Took over a team with its "best LT ever"?

Is that serious?

Did you forget Denver once had a player that made 2 all decade teams playing at that position?

[Lonestar]

I bet he doesn't mention the fact that Shanahan 'tinkered' by bringing in

Terrell Davis, John Mobley, Ed McCaffrey, Bill Romanowksi, Alfred Williams, Byron Chamberlain, Glenn Cadrez, Tony Jones, Crocket, Howard Griffith, Derrick Loville, Dan Neil, Neil Smith, Mark Schlereth, Keith Traylor (actually bringing him back after he left in 93), Trevor Price, Mike Lodish, David Diaz-Infante, Darien Gorden, Micheal Dean Perry, Detron Smith, Harry Swayne, Maa Tanuvasa, Vaughn Hebron, Bubby Brister... and although Rod Smith was on the practice squad, we all know who is the one that made Rod the player he became.

and those are just from '95 to '97. How many of those were either starting or had significant playing time in our SB wins? This is what he calls only "tinkering" with a few players.



hmm so even thought mikey had remnants of perhaps as many as 7 future HOF players from Reeves days he still brought in 25 at my count players of this post to round out his super bowl teams.

I have to comment on this, it was OK for mikey to do so but not for Josh? and that is still 25 players to Joshes 35 last year. Hypocrisy at its finest.

Night night have DVR to catch up with.

[Ravage!!!]

I bet he doesn't mention the fact that Shanahan 'tinkered' by bringing in

Terrell Davis, John Mobley, Ed McCaffrey, Bill Romanowksi, Alfred Williams, Byron Chamberlain, Glenn Cadrez, Tony Jones, Crocket, Howard Griffith, Derrick Loville, Dan Neil, Neil Smith, Mark Schlereth, Keith Traylor (actually bringing him back after he left in 93), Trevor Price, Mike Lodish, David Diaz-Infante, Darien Gorden, Micheal Dean Perry, Detron Smith, Harry Swayne, Maa Tanuvasa, Vaughn Hebron, Bubby Brister... and although Rod Smith was on the practice squad, we all know who is the one that made Rod the player he became.

and those are just from '95 to '97. How many of those were either starting or had significant playing time in our SB wins? This is what he calls only "tinkering" with a few players.


3 to 6 HOF'ers? :confused: Where? :confused:

That roster full of HOF'ers was 8-8 for two seasons under Phillips. How many SB's did they win under Reeves? :confused:

Please! I think you are revising history here, Jr. Where did Tony Jones come from? Zimmerman? TD? Darien Gordon? Anthony Miller?

The fact is Shanahan made that HIS team by bringing in his GUYS! That is how he got the mastermind label! All of his pickups seemed to turn to gold.


:beer: ...

[Ravage!!!]

hmm so even thought mikey had remnants of perhaps as many as 7 future HOF players from Reeves days he still brought in 25 at my count players of this post to round out his super bowl teams.

I have to comment on this, it was OK for mikey to do so but not for Josh? and that is still 25 players to Joshes 35 last year. Hypocrisy at its finest.

Night night have DVR to catch up with.

7 :confused: :lol: went from 3 to 7? Name them please :coffee:

[Lonestar]

What would be so hard about it? :confused:

Plenty of coaches have come in and declared they would be cleaning house immediately.

plenty of head coaches walked into many years of losing seasons. IIRC DET has not had one in a few decades have not seen a play off in maybe 4 decades. If it was not for Barry Sanders it would have been worse.

KC not much better. OAK well we all know that the only changes needed there are the owner.

CLE a laughing stock since before John kicked their asses two times in the playoffs.

How many teams have the ownership that DEN has.

I'm guessing that Josh laid out all but Jays departure when interviewing, that he was going to make this into a TEAM playing TEAM ball.

I'm also guessing that Pat is on board with it.

[Ravage!!!]

Thats a LOT of guessing :lol: making up stories and calling them "guessing" is still PURELY making up stories that fit your agenda.

[Lonestar]

3 to 6 HOF'ers? :confused: Where? :confused:

That roster full of HOF'ers was 8-8 for two seasons under Phillips. How many SB's did they win under Reeves? :confused:

Please! I think you are revising history here, Jr. Where did Tony Jones come from? Zimmerman? TD? Darien Gordon? Anthony Miller?

The fact is Shanahan made that HIS team by bringing in his GUYS! That is how he got the mastermind label! All of his pickups seemed to turn to gold.



Josh took over a team with its best LT ever, its best WR ever, its best CB ever. That is much more than potential.


IIRC correctly Zim and Jones were here when he got here whether it be Phillips (trying to forget that Head coach) or reeves does it really matter? they were here before mikey got here.

I listed a group of What I considered HOF players all which were here before mikey showed up.

Did he bring in some Vets and have a few good drafts yes. But the core players were already here on staff when he got here.

He was a genus at playing the FA board those first few years and frankly I believe it spoiled him from getting draftees.

Because after about Al Wilson and Poortis there was not much that stuck or was worth a crap.

Just for jollies how many players lasted here besides Rod, after those HOF type players retired.

[Ravage!!!]

IIRC correctly Zim and Jones were here when he got here whether it be Phillips (trying to forget that Head coach) or reeves does it really matter? they were here before mikey got here.

I listed a group of What I considered HOF players all which were here before mikey showed up.

Did he bring in some Vets and have a few good drafts yes. But the core players were already here on staff when he got here.

He was a genus at playing the FA board those first few years and frankly I believe it spoiled him from getting draftees.

Because after about Al Wilson and Poortis there was not much that stuck or was worth a crap.

Just for jollies how many players lasted here besides Rod, after those HOF type players retired.


you don't recall correctly. Jones didn't become a Bronco until 1997.

Also... I'm a bit confused. You are asking how many of those players remained on the team after the others retired? What does that have to do with anything at all???? :confused:

you made the statement that all Shanahan had to do was "Tinker" with the roster a lil bit. Yet... thats obviously not the case since I just showed you otherwise. THEN.. you try and attempt to spin that by saying its the "SAME as Joshy but I'M being a hypocrite." :lol: Perhaps we need to educate on the definition of that word. I would think you would know it pretty well by now as many times as people have posted the definition for you.

[TXBRONC]

I agree. The other poster was trying to insinuate that this bad pick was due in part to only having three months to scout and prepare a draft board. If they were so far behind the 8 ball as insinuated, why make that trade? :confused:

They were confident and felt like Alph was their guy. They were wrong but they didn't make that move out of a lack of preparedness.

The argument that McDaniels time to prepare was one of the main reasons that he made the mistake trading a first round pick for a second round player does hold water imo.

It should be obvious that McDaniels felt that Smith was worth a number one. I also remember him saying that he viewed Smith as his third number pick.

[TXBRONC]

you don't recall correctly. Jones didn't become a Bronco until 1997.

Also... I'm a bit confused. You are asking how many of those players remained on the team after the others retired? What does that have to do with anything at all???? :confused:

you made the statement that all Shanahan had to do was "Tinker" with the roster a lil bit. Yet... thats obviously not the case since I just showed you otherwise. THEN.. you try and attempt to spin that by saying its the "SAME as Joshy but I'M being a hypocrite." :lol: Perhaps we need to educate on the definition of that word. I would think you would know it pretty well by now as many times as people have posted the definition for you.

Exactly Jones was not here until 1997 and the entire Shanahan brought him is was to replace Zimmermann at left tackle because he had retired.

[bcbronc]

everything is mikey's fault. except the Superbowls.

[pnbronco]

Originally Posted by JDL
The Goodman's were fired because Jr. and Rick Smith were up for the GM spot... there was a power struggle and Jr. lost, Sr. did not want to stay on after this as you might well understand. It is likely that the Goodman Jr. wanted not to trade Cutler or wanted to exert more control than McD wished. But we do know that this occurred and in fact we know that Bowlen flat out lied to everyone in Denver... he stated in no uncertain terms at the postseason press conference that Goodman was safe and would be with the team, then something happened... that something was probably the Cutler issue... or possibly the releasing of the OC... or a combination.


This was all very well reported so I'm not sure where the above is coming from, lack of paying attention? It is what it is and I am not saying who was right or wrong... but we know 1) Bowlen stated explicitly in a press conference Goodman would be with the team in a shared GM position ... something changed 2) a power struggle over the GM position occurred 3) Jim Goodman lost and was fired 4) his father was not fired, but chose not to stay on after those events. Those 4 things were clearly reported at the time.




Well since being factual is so important than it's kind of interesting that Rick Smith went to the Texans back in 2006 to be their GM.....

from his bio:

Rick Smith enters his fourth season as Texans general manger after being named to the post on June 5, 2006. The Texans have accumulated 22 wins over the three seasons since 2006, giving him the most wins for a general manager in Texans history. Houston has posted 16 wins over the last two seasons, which ranks fifth among AFC teams.

I actually miss him a lot and Ted Sundquist too, I was friends with both of them.....

[Bosco]

Well since being factual is so important than it's kind of interesting that Rick Smith went to the Texans back in 2006 to be their GM.....

from his bio:

Rick Smith enters his fourth season as Texans general manger after being named to the post on June 5, 2006. The Texans have accumulated 22 wins over the three seasons since 2006, giving him the most wins for a general manager in Texans history. Houston has posted 16 wins over the last two seasons, which ranks fifth among AFC teams.

I actually miss him a lot and Ted Sundquist too, I was friends with both of them.....

I wonder if that was all a typo, because if you replace Rick Smith with Xanders, that story is pretty similar to the version of events that I've heard and posted about on this forum.

From an older thread...


From what I hear it was pretty simple. The race for the GM job was between Jeff and Xanders. McD apparently got along very well with Xanders and Jeff is rumored to have not been real well liked within the front office, so Xanders became the obvious choice. Once Jeff was gone, Bowlen didn't want to force Jim Goodman to have to choose between his loyalty to his son and to the Broncos, so Bowlen terminated him, allowing him to keep his salary, which would not have happened had Jim resigned.

[Lonestar]

I wonder if that was all a typo, because if you replace Rick Smith with Xanders, that story is pretty similar to the version of events that I've heard and posted about on this forum.

From an older thread...:salute::salute:
thanks for setting the record straight.

I had thought it was the other way around the dad was the Co-Gm and the kid was throwing his weight around because of it. he was fired and his dad went because of the problems that could have happened.


But for what ever the reasons they were cut loose a few weeks before the draft that will be used as fodder for years.

[TXBRONC]

What would be so hard about it? :confused:

Plenty of coaches have come in and declared they would be cleaning house immediately.

It's rather obvious imo.