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Sconnie Bronco
08-25-2010, 09:35 PM
its to Denvers benefit to have two quality QBs.

It seems like so much discussion is centered around tearing down one guy to prop up the guy people are in favor of.

Im a Tebow guy but if Orton does well, all the better. Thats why the extension was such a good idea. It basically was an extension on making a decision. And if Tebow does really well, this way, we can get something for Orton depending on how it all plays out.

Anyway, after watching 2 preseason games, there was one thing I noticed that isnt getting enough attention, or if it is, its being framed incorrectly. Ive seen numerous people talk about how mobile he is. Actually, what he's become noticeably better at is manipulating the pocket. He hasnt really been scrambling, so I have a hard time hearing he's more mobile without cringing but he is in the very narrow sense as it pertains to the pocket. But its such a loose use of the word mobile, which encompasses more than pocket manipulation. Anyway, thats just a semantic bone I have to pick with the descriptions Ive seen used.

Also, regarding arm strength. It seems like Orton maxes out at around 55 yards in the air (I think). In the Cincy game, when he both badly underthew his WR, he threw it 55 yards. Then, later, when he overthrew his guy, it was, again, around 55 yards.

What people need to realize is that throwing the deep ball is as much art as it is science. I actually thought Cutler wasnt very good at throwing the deep ball. He had a lot of misfires too, although not nearly as many as Orton. This is something Tebow has been very strong at though. And when you couple a scrambling threat with a good deep ball, there are a lot of potential big plays out there. But when people criticize Ortons deep ball, its not purely about arm strength.

I Eat Staples
08-25-2010, 09:44 PM
Don't judge Orton's arm strength, or lack thereof, on one game. He can throw about 70 yards, just terribly inaccurate.

Cutler has an amazing arm but his deep ball is average at best. He's not very accurate throwing deep either.

EDIT: I misread your post. I second most of what you said, except my first sentence. Your last sentence was gold though. Orton sucks at the deep ball, but it's not his arm strength to blame.

Denver Native (Carol)
08-25-2010, 09:52 PM
its to Denvers benefit to have two quality QBs.

It seems like so much discussion is centered around tearing down one guy to prop up the guy people are in favor of.

Im a Tebow guy but if Orton does well, all the better. Thats why the extension was such a good idea. It basically was an extension on making a decision. And if Tebow does really well, this way, we can get something for Orton depending on how it all plays out.

Anyway, after watching 2 preseason games, there was one thing I noticed that isnt getting enough attention, or if it is, its being framed incorrectly. Ive seen numerous people talk about how mobile he is. Actually, what he's become noticeably better at is manipulating the pocket. He hasnt really been scrambling, so I have a hard time hearing he's more mobile without cringing but he is in the very narrow sense as it pertains to the pocket. But its such a loose use of the word mobile, which encompasses more than pocket manipulation. Anyway, thats just a semantic bone I have to pick with the descriptions Ive seen used.

Also, regarding arm strength. It seems like Orton maxes out at around 55 yards in the air (I think). In the Cincy game, when he both badly underthew his WR, he threw it 55 yards. Then, later, when he overthrew his guy, it was, again, around 55 yards.

What people need to realize is that throwing the deep ball is as much art as it is science. I actually thought Cutler wasnt very good at throwing the deep ball. He had a lot of misfires too, although not nearly as many as Orton. This is something Tebow has been very strong at though. And when you couple a scrambling threat with a good deep ball, there are a lot of potential big plays out there. But when people criticize Ortons deep ball, its not purely about arm strength.

I really liked the way you started out, but then it appears you are finding fault with some of Orton's game - hope I am wrong, if that was not your intention.

I Eat Staples
08-25-2010, 09:53 PM
I really liked the way you started out, but then it appears you are finding fault with some of Orton's game - hope I am wrong, if that was not your intention.

Some of Orton's game does have fault. I like him, and he's a good QB, but he's obviously not perfect.

Denver Native (Carol)
08-25-2010, 09:54 PM
Some of Orton's game does have fault. I like him, and he's a good QB, but he's obviously not perfect.

Please name one QB who is perfect.

Sconnie Bronco
08-25-2010, 09:57 PM
Don't judge Orton's arm strength, or lack thereof, on one game. He can throw about 70 yards, just terribly inaccurate.

Cutler has an amazing arm but his deep ball is average at best. He's not very accurate throwing deep either.

EDIT: I misread your post. I second most of what you said, except my first sentence. Your last sentence was gold though. Orton sucks at the deep ball, but it's not his arm strength to blame.

I doubt the 70 yards. But another thing worth adding is that Orton also seems fairly timid. At least that was the case last year. He seemed reluctant to take a chance and he also seemed to be really worried about what McDaniels thought all the time. It seemed like after almost every play, he was looking over at the sideline to see if his coach approved. Orton is a good guy and carries himself well but I kind of wish he'd take more ownership, though maybe not to the same degree we saw with Cutler.

It just seems like Orton, first of all, lacks the accuracy/touch. And then to add to that, has been timid...maybe its because he wants to dink and dunk because its "smart" and wants the coach to approve. Or maybe he simply lacks confidence and knows he is limited on the deep ball. It just seems like he didnt really even look for it.

Maybe he'll look for it more with a better ability to manipulate the pocket. Maybe he has more confidence now along those lines.

But its been kind of weird going from Cutler and that OLine giving up almost now sacks to watching Orton be a statue last year and taking sacks that shouldnt have been,... and then this year see Oron manipulating the pocket and saving plays from a bad offensive line (lets face it...thats its been bad so far).

I Eat Staples
08-25-2010, 09:59 PM
Please name one QB who is perfect.

None, that's my point. So what's wrong with finding faults in one's game?

gobroncsnv
08-25-2010, 11:09 PM
Not many around the league thing of Brady or Manning as particularly nimble, either. Some mobile QB's are bad for their teams, certainly one who's a statue is, as well. I'm not gonna look forward to seeing Orton try to take a snap on a wildcat play, but given the Lion's pass rush this past week, he "manipulated the pocket" rather well, in my book.
As far as accuracy goes, I have to give a look at a couple of the long balls he threw last week through the eyes of the announcers... "looked like the WR didn't run all out to go get that ball", or something to that effect.
Regarding Cutler, I think he has a strong arm, but wasn't at all impressed with his long passing accuracy. Still don't miss him.

topscribe
08-25-2010, 11:15 PM
I doubt the 70 yards.

As I have pointed out many, many times right on this board, Orton threw the
ball 74 yards as a high school senior, i.e., a kid, not fully developed.

The issue is Orton's accuracy deep. That he has a strong arm is not debatable.

-----

topscribe
08-25-2010, 11:17 PM
None, that's my point. So what's wrong with finding faults in one's game?

I think what Carol is getting at is that you have seemed to single Orton out as
having faults. Yes, point out his faults - he has them. But don't try to use them
as the sole evidence he is an "average" QB (whatever that is).

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Ravage!!!
08-25-2010, 11:42 PM
His faults aren't the sole reason he's an average QB, its his strengths that make him an average QB as well!! :lol:

Dzone
08-25-2010, 11:56 PM
I have a lot of friends who live in Chicago and it is fun to remind them that Orton had a better year than Cutler..Ohh they hate that..LOL...They were laughing at Orton at the beginning of last season, I can remember them saying "hahaa, you guys are stuck with ORTON!hahaha", but by the end of the year, they werent laughing anymore...I like Orton. Yes, the 3 and outs last year were frustrating...

Marshall also had some great games last year, which helped Ortons stats, but this group , as a group, may be better than last years. Hopefully. Orton will have a big year... but if we dont have a sound running game things could get ugly..that Moreno hamstring could be a lingering issue and Buckhalters frame has never been able to endure a full season of pounding

Sconnie Bronco
08-26-2010, 02:04 AM
As I have pointed out many, many times right on this board, Orton threw the
ball 74 yards as a high school senior, i.e., a kid, not fully developed.

The issue is Orton's accuracy deep. That he has a strong arm is not debatable.

-----

I thought I remembered someone saying that.

Sorry but Im going by what I see and Im not buying the 74 yards. This sounds like some of these 40 times...even when repeated many times.

broncophan
08-26-2010, 05:42 AM
its to Denvers benefit to have two quality QBs.

It seems like so much discussion is centered around tearing down one guy to prop up the guy people are in favor of.

Im a Tebow guy but if Orton does well, all the better. Thats why the extension was such a good idea. It basically was an extension on making a decision. And if Tebow does really well, this way, we can get something for Orton depending on how it all plays out.

Anyway, after watching 2 preseason games, there was one thing I noticed that isnt getting enough attention, or if it is, its being framed incorrectly. Ive seen numerous people talk about how mobile he is. Actually, what he's become noticeably better at is manipulating the pocket. He hasnt really been scrambling, so I have a hard time hearing he's more mobile without cringing but he is in the very narrow sense as it pertains to the pocket. But its such a loose use of the word mobile, which encompasses more than pocket manipulation. Anyway, thats just a semantic bone I have to pick with the descriptions Ive seen used.

Also, regarding arm strength. It seems like Orton maxes out at around 55 yards in the air (I think). In the Cincy game, when he both badly underthew his WR, he threw it 55 yards. Then, later, when he overthrew his guy, it was, again, around 55 yards.

What people need to realize is that throwing the deep ball is as much art as it is science. I actually thought Cutler wasnt very good at throwing the deep ball. He had a lot of misfires too, although not nearly as many as Orton. This is something Tebow has been very strong at though. And when you couple a scrambling threat with a good deep ball, there are a lot of potential big plays out there. But when people criticize Ortons deep ball, its not purely about arm strength.

sorry.....I stopped reading after the first line......"its to Denvers benefit to have 2 quality QB's.......thanks for posting though............ captain obvious.

Dirk
08-26-2010, 06:27 AM
Please name one QB who is perfect.

That's easy! It's umm...well then there's umm....yeah he is...umm...


Nevermind.

Nomad
08-26-2010, 07:01 AM
captain obvious.

:lol:

GEM
08-26-2010, 09:33 AM
I'm good with 2 quality QB's....Orton and Tebow. Send the pretty boi down the road....can't stand the kid. He can't get out of his own way and if he comes in for an injured Orton, we are SCREWED.

Dreadnought
08-26-2010, 09:49 AM
sorry.....I stopped reading after the first line......"its to Denvers benefit to have 2 quality QB's.......thanks for posting though............ captain obvious.

Then you missed out on some interesting stuff. It was a thoughtful well written post that you either might either agree or disagree with portions of. I thought it was pretty solid work, frankly, and deserved better than the "captain obvious" dig. He stuck to the topic of the strengths and gaps in Orton's game, backed up his POV pretty well, and did so without belittling people who might have a different view. Can't ask for more than that on a message board

topscribe
08-26-2010, 10:04 AM
I thought I remembered someone saying that.

Sorry but Im going by what I see and Im not buying the 74 yards. This sounds like some of these 40 times...even when repeated many times.

It is documented. It was in a quarterback contest, of which Jon Kitna, who was
then a starting QB in the NFL, was taking part. Orton beat Kitna on that day,
and his longest throw was 74 yards. Unfortunately, I have never archived any
of my stuff on Orton, so I find myself having to go look every time I need
something. So a quick search did not turn up the specific document I need,
and I don't have time to go further right now since I work for a living. But I
do have this from MHR (http://www.milehighreport.com/2009/4/19/840423/tales-who-is-kyle-orton) by a writer I know personally and respect greatly:


Coming out of high school, Orton could already throw a football over 72 yards - you could say that at times, his arm strength is underestimated. In fact, Orton out-threw NFL QB Jon Kitna at Purdue's Elite Quarterback Camp in the summer of 2000. Purdue promptly offered Kyle Orton a scholarship to a program that had already produced two NFL quarterbacks. He took them up on it, majoring in history and studying football.

That is not the only incident. Last year, Orton's "Hail Mary" pass at the end of
the first half in the NE game traveled about 65 yards in the air. Then just this
spring, one person - I think it was on MHR - reported Orton threw the ball about
70 yards in the air - in fact, he said, it was so far that the receiver stopped
running before it got there.

Also, in Orton's games in 2008, before his injury, which happened in the eighth
game, I remember Orton drawing "wow" comments a couple times from the
announcers for the velocity of his throws.

So you might be judging his arm strength by his play for Denver, when he
played on one high ankle sprain in the first 8½ games, then two high ankle
sprains the remainder of the year. It is natural his velocity and deep accuracy
would suffer (along, of course, with his mobility), and that is supported by
how he has surprised even his own teammates this year with his velocity.

As I said before, Orton's accuracy deep is still an issue, something we still
need to see. Strength of arm, however, is not . . .

-----

BroncoWave
08-26-2010, 10:42 AM
As I have pointed out many, many times right on this board, Orton threw the
ball 74 yards as a high school senior, i.e., a kid, not fully developed.

The issue is Orton's accuracy deep. That he has a strong arm is not debatable.

-----

I would guess that almost any QB in the league could throw it that far in a t-shirt just standing around on the field. The only thing that matters is how deep and how accurately he can throw it in pads in a full speed game, and I can guarantee you that number is less than 74.

Rex
08-26-2010, 10:43 AM
I would guess that almost any QB in the league could throw it that far in a t-shirt just standing around on the field. The only thing that matters is how deep and how accurately he can throw it in pads in a full speed game, and I can guarantee you that number is less than 74.

I would bet you are 100% completely totally wrong about any NFL QB throwing the ball 74 yards. 100%.

BroncoWave
08-26-2010, 10:46 AM
I would bet you are 100% completely totally wrong about any NFL QB throwing the ball 74 yards. 100%.

That's why I said almost genius. And if you let an NFL QB not wearing pads rare back and throw it as hard as they can, I bet most of them could get it 74 yards.

Rex
08-26-2010, 10:47 AM
That's why I said almost genius. And if you let an NFL QB not wearing pads rare back and throw it as hard as they can, I bet most of them could get it 74 yards.

I bet you are still wrong. How many is almost? I mean, this seems to be important to you. Lets go down the list. I will start.

Cutler Yes. There you go. You should be satisfied with that.

BroncoWave
08-26-2010, 10:49 AM
I bet you are still wrong. How many is almost? I mean, this seems to be important to you. Lets go down the list. I will start.

Cutler Yes. There you go. You should be satisfied with that.

LOL, who do you think you are coming on here and talking shit to people you don't even know? If you knew anything about me you would know that I am ANYTHING but pro-Cutler.

BroncoWave
08-26-2010, 10:52 AM
A couple of questions have to be asked though. Was that 74 yards in the air or where the ball ended up? Also how big of a run and go did he get? And was there any wind at his back? I have serious questions about that number because I haven't seen anything close to that in an actual game.

Rex
08-26-2010, 10:53 AM
LOL, you do you think you are coming on here and talking shit to people you don't even know? If you knew anything about me you would know that I am ANYTHING but pro-Cutler.

I started the list. Your turn next.

I will go again.

Leinart: No
Hasselbeck: No
Delhomme: No
Garrard: No
Edwards: No

topscribe
08-26-2010, 10:58 AM
I would guess that almost any QB in the league could throw it that far in a t-shirt just standing around on the field. The only thing that matters is how deep and how accurately he can throw it in pads in a full speed game, and I can guarantee you that number is less than 74.

Really? You honestly believe that? Wow. I mean . . . you're kidding, right?

But anyway, that wasn't the point to the comment. Guess you missed it.



A couple of questions have to be asked though. Was that 74 yards in the air or where the ball ended up? Also how big of a run and go did he get? And was there any wind at his back? I have serious questions about that number because I haven't seen anything close to that in an actual game.

How many times did you see John Elway throw a 70-yard pass in an actual
game? I did once - one time in his 16 years. Had I not seen that play, would
it then be incumbent on me to assume he couldn't throw it that far? (He could
throw it 80 yards.)

I doubt you will ever seen Kyle throw it that far in a game. In fact, you may
never see it, period. It just isn't done very often, not even by those with
howitzers for arms.

-----

slim
08-26-2010, 10:59 AM
I started the list. Your turn next.

I will go again.

Leinart: No
Hasselbeck: No
Delhomme: No
Garrard: No
Edwards: No

Alex Smith: No
Tom Brady: No
Mark Sanchez: No
Matt Cassell: No

topscribe
08-26-2010, 11:06 AM
That's why I said almost genius. And if you let an NFL QB not wearing pads rare back and throw it as hard as they can, I bet most of them could get it 74 yards.

In the 2002 QB Challenge, Peyton Manning managed 68 yards, Tom Brady 67,
and Jake Plummer 66. None of them were in pads. So you can eliminate them
from your "almost" right away.

Oh, and they weren't in high school . . .

-----

BroncoWave
08-26-2010, 11:08 AM
Fine, maybe I was wrong in saying most could do it. But like I said, I have SERIOUS doubts that he did that in HS in normal conditions. I'm thinking that there was either a strong wind behind him or they counted where it ended up instead of where it landed. I just have too many questions to take that at face value without seeing it for myself.

claymore
08-26-2010, 11:10 AM
My life as a Bronco fan has really turned south when Im reading an argument about Kyle Ortons high school throws.

Rex
08-26-2010, 11:11 AM
My life as a Bronco fan has really turned south when Im reading an argument about Kyle Ortons high school throws.

Cutler rules!

topscribe
08-26-2010, 11:12 AM
Fine, maybe I was wrong in saying most could do it. But like I said, I have SERIOUS doubts that he did that in HS in normal conditions. I'm thinking that there was either a strong wind behind him or they counted where it ended up instead of where it landed. I just have too many questions to take that at face value without seeing it for myself.

This is really nit-picking. What does it matter whether it was 70 yards, 74 yards,
or 68 yards? What does it matter what the weather was?

The point I was making is that Orton has a strong arm. He came into college
and then the pros with the reputation of a strong-armed QB. There is plenty
of documentation for that.

That was the original point. But not even that is important anymore. So what
do you say let's just drop it?

Wow. :rolleyes:

-----

claymore
08-26-2010, 11:12 AM
Cutler rules!

Effin Aye!

Dreadnought
08-26-2010, 11:38 AM
Alex Smith: No
Tom Brady: No
Mark Sanchez: No
Matt Cassell: No

JaMarcus Russell: Yes. Now, where that ball comes down is pretty random, but it will be quite some ways downfield

topscribe
08-26-2010, 11:43 AM
JaMarcus Russell: Yes. Now, where that ball comes down is pretty random, but it will be quite some ways downfield

Russell could throw the ball into the second deck.

. . . and often did. :lol:

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BroncoWave
08-26-2010, 11:46 AM
Russell could throw the ball into the second deck.

. . . and often did. :lol:

-----

Shows you how little arm strength matters if you can't throw it accurately downfield.

turftoad
08-26-2010, 11:49 AM
Please stay on topic fellers, just had to clean this thread up.

Dreadnought
08-26-2010, 11:50 AM
Shows you how little arm strength matters if you can't throw it accurately downfield.

Thats kind of the thing. I am willing to buy that Orton can heave the ball a good distance, but he is not a good long passer. Maybe he will be, who knows. Cutler was not a terrific long passer (I think he was at his best in the 15-25 yard range, not longer) due to accuracy issues, not strength. Drew Brees is a devastating long passer, but thats not because he has a laser-rocket arm - its good enough, and he just has a knack for it. I think some folks are talking past each other

topscribe
08-26-2010, 11:53 AM
Thats kind of the thing. I am willing to buy that Orton can heave the ball a good distance, but he is not a good long passer. Maybe he will be, who knows. Cutler was not a terrific long passer (I think he was at his best in the 15-25 yard range, not longer) due to accuracy issues, not strength. Drew Brees is a devastating long passer, but thats not because he has a laser-rocket arm - its good enough, and he just has a knack for it. I think some folks are talking past each other

Indeed. That has been an apparent problem for Orton, although I assume it
would be, playing on bum ankles. He has thrown three so far this preseason,
with one on target. (The receiver slowed down, as Reggie Rivers mentioned
during the game.) But positive reports about his deep throws have come out of
camp. I'm just waiting to see how that now translates into actual games . . .

-----

claymore
08-26-2010, 11:54 AM
Thats kind of the thing. I am willing to buy that Orton can heave the ball a good distance, but he is not a good long passer. Maybe he will be, who knows. Cutler was not a terrific long passer (I think he was at his best in the 15-25 yard range, not longer) due to accuracy issues, not strength. Drew Brees is a devastating long passer, but thats not because he has a laser-rocket arm - its good enough, and he just has a knack for it. I think some folks are talking past each other

They did a thing on Drew Brees. I think it was ESPN or some sports science show, but it was about muscle memory, and the dudes accuracey is off the freakin charts.

claymore
08-26-2010, 11:58 AM
They did a thing on Drew Brees. I think it was ESPN or some sports science show, but it was about muscle memory, and the dudes accuracey is off the freakin charts.

I doubt anyone will watch it, but here it is...

tVoqA-LKGb4

Sconnie Bronco
08-26-2010, 12:00 PM
It is documented. It was in a quarterback contest, of which Jon Kitna, who was
then a starting QB in the NFL, was taking part. Orton beat Kitna on that day,
and his longest throw was 74 yards. Unfortunately, I have never archived any
of my stuff on Orton, so I find myself having to go look every time I need
something. So a quick search did not turn up the specific document I need,
and I don't have time to go further right now since I work for a living. But I
do have this from MHR (http://www.milehighreport.com/2009/4/19/840423/tales-who-is-kyle-orton) by a writer I know personally and respect greatly:



That is not the only incident. Last year, Orton's "Hail Mary" pass at the end of
the first half in the NE game traveled about 65 yards in the air. Then just this
spring, one person - I think it was on MHR - reported Orton threw the ball about
70 yards in the air - in fact, he said, it was so far that the receiver stopped
running before it got there.

Also, in Orton's games in 2008, before his injury, which happened in the eighth
game, I remember Orton drawing "wow" comments a couple times from the
announcers for the velocity of his throws.

So you might be judging his arm strength by his play for Denver, when he
played on one high ankle sprain in the first 8½ games, then two high ankle
sprains the remainder of the year. It is natural his velocity and deep accuracy
would suffer (along, of course, with his mobility), and that is supported by
how he has surprised even his own teammates this year with his velocity.

As I said before, Orton's accuracy deep is still an issue, something we still
need to see. Strength of arm, however, is not . . .

-----

You can say that all day long. But in the Cincy game, he had a WR wide open 65 yards downfield and it didnt come close to making it to him. All he had to do is air it out if he truly does have the arm. Instead, it fell about 10 yards short of the WR and the only reason it wasnt intercepted was because he actually underthrew the DBs who were trailing well behind. But to constantly point out that he can throw it 74 yards only to see him throw 20 yards short of that is kind of pointless. Unless he can do that in a game, the 74 yards becomes flukish...if it even happened at all. And its not like he didnt wind up to throw it either...just like he did on another pass that went around 55 yards.

Sconnie Bronco
08-26-2010, 12:07 PM
Thats kind of the thing. I am willing to buy that Orton can heave the ball a good distance, but he is not a good long passer. Maybe he will be, who knows. Cutler was not a terrific long passer (I think he was at his best in the 15-25 yard range, not longer) due to accuracy issues, not strength. Drew Brees is a devastating long passer, but thats not because he has a laser-rocket arm - its good enough, and he just has a knack for it. I think some folks are talking past each other

Yeah, like Ive said, its as much art as it is science. If it was all science, then Cutler and his velocity should be great at it. But he's not. He has a lot of misfires too. Tebow, on the other hand, is a guy who seems to have a high connection rate on the deep ball. McNabb is also great at throwing the deep ball.

But regarding Brees, I think he's good at it for a different reason. I think he sees the field so well. But then there are the guys who can drop the high arcing rainbows down a chimney shaft into the hands of a WR running down the sideline.

topscribe
08-26-2010, 12:08 PM
I doubt anyone will watch it, but here it is...

tVoqA-LKGb4

All I can say is wow! :eek:

-----

Lonestar
08-26-2010, 12:09 PM
I doubt the 70 yards. But another thing worth adding is that Orton also seems fairly timid. At least that was the case last year. He seemed reluctant to take a chance and he also seemed to be really worried about what McDaniels thought all the time. It seemed like after almost every play, he was looking over at the sideline to see if his coach approved. Orton is a good guy and carries himself well but I kind of wish he'd take more ownership, though maybe not to the same degree we saw with Cutler.

It just seems like Orton, first of all, lacks the accuracy/touch. And then to add to that, has been timid...maybe its because he wants to dink and dunk because its "smart" and wants the coach to approve. Or maybe he simply lacks confidence and knows he is limited on the deep ball. It just seems like he didnt really even look for it.

Maybe he'll look for it more with a better ability to manipulate the pocket. Maybe he has more confidence now along those lines.

But its been kind of weird going from Cutler and that OLine giving up almost now sacks to watching Orton be a statue last year and taking sacks that shouldnt have been,... and then this year see Oron manipulating the pocket and saving plays from a bad offensive line (lets face it...thats its been bad so far).



Amazing what having two good ankles to motor around on makes.

topscribe
08-26-2010, 12:13 PM
You can say that all day long. But in the Cincy game, he had a WR wide open 65 yards downfield and it didnt come close to making it to him. All he had to do is air it out if he truly does have the arm. Instead, it fell about 10 yards short of the WR and the only reason it wasnt intercepted was because he actually underthrew the DBs who were trailing well behind. But to constantly point out that he can throw it 74 yards only to see him throw 20 yards short of that is kind of pointless. Unless he can do that in a game, the 74 yards becomes flukish...if it even happened at all. And its not like he didnt wind up to throw it either...just like he did on another pass that went around 55 yards.

Please don't try to exaggerate to someone who saw the same game. Orton did
underthrow that pass, but it was not by 10 yards.

And please do not question my integrity. You have not been here long enough,
and you do not know me.

Do some research, as I did. Don't sit there with guesswork and try to argue
with already documented facts. That is just silly.

Our conversation regarding this issue is over. It has reach the point where it
is beyond ridiculous.

-----

BigDaddyBronco
08-26-2010, 12:16 PM
The timing with the reciever is the biggest thing.

Remember Elway and Anthony Miller, they never seemed to connect on the long ball. Miller would always get past the CB, but it would be just off his fingertips.

Elway didn't have this problem with Rod Smith as much. At least not in the Super Bowl. :woot:

BroncoWave
08-26-2010, 12:25 PM
This is really nit-picking. What does it matter whether it was 70 yards, 74 yards,
or 68 yards? What does it matter what the weather was?

Oh but it does matter. If it was actually 68 instead of 74, that is quite different since as you pointed out quite a few QB's reached around that # in a 2002 QB competition.

But why is that suddenly so unimportant when you've used that as your #1 defense of his arm strength for over a year now? Seems like a bit of backtracking to me.

BroncoWave
08-26-2010, 12:28 PM
Please don't try to exaggerate to someone who saw the same game. Orton did
underthrow that pass, but it was not by 10 yards.

And please do not question my integrity. You have not been here long enough,
and you do not know me.

Do some research, as I did. Don't sit there with guesswork and try to argue
with already documented facts. That is just silly.

Our conversation regarding this issue is over. It has reach the point where it
is beyond ridiculous.

-----

You're not the only person who has watched Kyle Orton play, Top. Others are also capable of making judgments about him based on watching him play football.

There have been PLENTY of other people document facts about his in-game arm strength. Just because they don't mesh with your "facts" doesn't mean they aren't accurate.

slim
08-26-2010, 12:29 PM
The timing with the reciever is the biggest thing.

Remember Elway and Anthony Miller, they never seemed to connect on the long ball. Miller would always get past the CB, but it would be just off his fingertips.

Elway didn't have this problem with Rod Smith as much. At least not in the Super Bowl. :woot:

Don't forget throwing motion!

There is nothing more important than that!!!

topscribe
08-26-2010, 12:32 PM
Don't forget throwing motion!

There is nothing more important than that!!!

I really liked that vid Clay posted. It tells a lot about that . . .

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slim
08-26-2010, 12:40 PM
I really liked that vid Clay posted. It tells a lot about that . . .

-----

I didn't watch it.

I am scared to watch any video clay posts.

:learnedthehardway:

claymore
08-26-2010, 12:42 PM
I didn't watch it.

I am scared to watch any video clay posts.

:learnedthehardway:

That was an Email, and I was drunk. :doesntcount:

topscribe
08-26-2010, 12:43 PM
Dang, you guys, I needed a laugh . . . :lol:

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Dreadnought
08-26-2010, 12:45 PM
I didn't watch it.

I am scared to watch any video clay posts.

:learnedthehardway:

Yes - "Fire Island Round-Up" was disturbing, to say the least. Not to mention stuff he has been known to send on cell phones to unwitting victims...:coffee:

For all the importance of throwing motion, I think if its consistent it can be weird and still be effective. Bernie Kosar had that weird-ass side arm delivery that shouldn't have worked but did anyways.

claymore
08-26-2010, 12:47 PM
Yes - "Fire Island Round-Up" was disturbing, to say the least. Not to mention stuff he has been known to send on cell phones to unwitting victims...:coffee:

For all the importance of throwing motion, I think if its consistent it can be weird and still be effective. Bernie Kosar had that weird-ass side arm delivery that shouldn't have worked but did anyways.

You needed to learn how to check a text. YOU are at fault.

Dreadnought
08-26-2010, 12:48 PM
You needed to learn how to check a text. YOU are at fault.

:tsk:

I Eat Staples
08-26-2010, 12:57 PM
Not many around the league thing of Brady or Manning as particularly nimble, either. Some mobile QB's are bad for their teams, certainly one who's a statue is, as well. I'm not gonna look forward to seeing Orton try to take a snap on a wildcat play, but given the Lion's pass rush this past week, he "manipulated the pocket" rather well, in my book.
As far as accuracy goes, I have to give a look at a couple of the long balls he threw last week through the eyes of the announcers... "looked like the WR didn't run all out to go get that ball", or something to that effect.
Regarding Cutler, I think he has a strong arm, but wasn't at all impressed with his long passing accuracy. Still don't miss him.

Brady and Manning are two of the best QBs in the league at moving in the pocket and sidestepping the rush. Just because they don't take off and run for first downs doesn't mean they aren't mobile.


I think what Carol is getting at is that you have seemed to single Orton out as
having faults. Yes, point out his faults - he has them. But don't try to use them
as the sole evidence he is an "average" QB (whatever that is).

-----

I'm sorry you still don't know what average is, but I never even said he was an average QB. I'd rate him slightly above-average. You don't have to like it, I'm entitled to my opinion as you are to yours.


I thought I remembered someone saying that.

Sorry but Im going by what I see and Im not buying the 74 yards. This sounds like some of these 40 times...even when repeated many times.

Yeah, I don't know how anyone could make the ridiculous claim that Orton could come anywhere close to completing a 74 yard pass in a game. On the flip side, I don't know how anyone could make the ridiculous claim that he might ever need to.


I'm good with 2 quality QB's....Orton and Tebow. Send the pretty boi down the road....can't stand the kid. He can't get out of his own way and if he comes in for an injured Orton, we are SCREWED.

Tebow has a long way to go before he can be considered anything close to a quality QB.


I would guess that almost any QB in the league could throw it that far in a t-shirt just standing around on the field. The only thing that matters is how deep and how accurately he can throw it in pads in a full speed game, and I can guarantee you that number is less than 74.

100% agreed.


I started the list. Your turn next.

I will go again.

Leinart: No
Hasselbeck: No
Delhomme: No
Garrard: No
Edwards: No


Alex Smith: No
Tom Brady: No
Mark Sanchez: No
Matt Cassell: No

Leinart: No
Hasselbeck: No idea, probably though
Delhomme: No idea
Garrard: Yes
Edwards: No idea
Brady: Yes
Sanchez: Yes
Cassell: Probably not

Just because Manning or Brady threw for 68 or 70 yards doesn't mean they couldn't reach 74. Someone listed Orton's best throw ever, and one throw from those players. If Orton were to throw passes of 50, 55, 52, 50, 53, and 74, and Manning threw 68, 66, 64, 66, 67, 68, Manning would have a further average throwing distance.

Just because Orton's best throw was longer than someone else's best throw, does not mean he has a stronger arm. It's the entire body of work, not just one throw.

And that was just to make a point. At the end of the day, no QB is going to throw 70+ yards downfield in a game.

I Eat Staples
08-26-2010, 12:59 PM
For all the importance of throwing motion, I think if its consistent it can be weird and still be effective. Bernie Kosar had that weird-ass side arm delivery that shouldn't have worked but did anyways.

Philip Rivers has a hideous delivery and every time he torches our defense I die inside.

Dreadnought
08-26-2010, 01:10 PM
Philip Rivers has a hideous delivery and every time he torches our defense I die inside.

Roger that. Its also why I don't lose any sleep over Tebow's motion. It doesn't guarantee failure by any means

claymore
08-26-2010, 01:10 PM
I doubt anyone will watch it, but here it is...

tVoqA-LKGb4

No way Brees makes those throws on Sprained Ankles.

Sconnie Bronco
08-26-2010, 01:57 PM
Please don't try to exaggerate to someone who saw the same game. Orton did
underthrow that pass, but it was not by 10 yards.

OK, Orton let loose of the ball at around the 27 and the ball landed at around the 18. By the time it got there, Lloyd was trying to get back to the ball. Had Orton thrown it 70 or even 65 yards, it would have likely connected and been underthrown by 10 yards...maybe more. All Orton would have had to do was make good on your claim. But he didnt and so while the ball was in the air, Lloyd had to make a drastic adjustment to try to get back to the ball.


And please do not question my integrity. You have not been here long enough,
and you do not know me.

I think you're doing this to yourself. Youre starting to sound like a little like Roger Clemens.


Do some research, as I did. Don't sit there with guesswork and try to argue
with already documented facts. That is just silly.

Silly is a good word for this. This point that you're making is exactly that. Its like someone arguing Shaquille O'Neal is a good free throw shooter because he once hit 50 free throws in a row at practice. Meanwhile, in real games, he's around 50%.


Our conversation regarding this issue is over. It has reach the point where it
is beyond ridiculous.

I really doubt that. Im guessing that you'll refer to the 74 yard pass at some point in the future. It seems like the 74 yard throw in HS is one continous discussion with you. If you dont want to talk about it, Im not really sure why you bring it up in the first place.

I Eat Staples
08-26-2010, 02:01 PM
Youre starting to sound like a little like Roger Clemens.

Lmao. :lol:


Silly is a good word for this. This point that you're making is exactly that. Its like someone arguing Shaquille O'Neal is a good free throw shooter because he once hit 50 free throws in a row at practice. Meanwhile, in real games, he's around 50%.

That's a good analogy.

slim
08-26-2010, 02:04 PM
Good, another argument about Orton's arm strength.

And I thought today was going to be boring.

claymore
08-26-2010, 02:08 PM
Good, another argument about Orton's arm strength.

And I thought today was going to be boring.

He threw it 74 yards in high sckool. But those were 17 year old ankles. Not NFL journey man ankles.

topscribe
08-26-2010, 02:09 PM
one continous discussion with you

Wow. An August n00b with 130 posts, and you're telling me what is a
continuous discussion with me. How old are you, anyway? Your insistence
on trying to make a pissing match out of this is so juvenile.

Moving right along . . . :focus:

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slim
08-26-2010, 02:10 PM
He threw it 74 yards in high sckool. But those were 17 year old ankles. Not NFL journey man ankles.

Are you sure? I think it was really 72 yards.

When I was in HS, my coach told me I had "soft hands". I thought he was hitting on me, so I quit the team.

I Eat Staples
08-26-2010, 02:11 PM
Wow. An August n00b with 130 posts, and you're telling me what is a
continuous discussion with me. How old are you, anyway? Your insistence
on trying to make a pissing match out of this is so juvenile.

Moving right along . . . :focus:

-----

I see this is a trend for you. You can't have an intelligent discussion without bringing up join dates, posts, or age. All three of those have little relevance to any topic you've discussed with me or any other poster.

Lonestar
08-26-2010, 02:13 PM
The timing with the reciever is the biggest thing.

Remember Elway and Anthony Miller, they never seemed to connect on the long ball. Miller would always get past the CB, but it would be just off his fingertips.

Elway didn't have this problem with Rod Smith as much. At least not in the Super Bowl. :woot:

YOUr right on the money with this. Timing is everything and route runnign well that has a lot to do with Timing.

LQAst year IIRC they rarely parcticed the longer ball is it any wonder why they did not get any timing down.

That is critical to be able to have confidence in the WR to be where he is supposed to be WHEN he is supposed to be there.

last year the OLINE also could not hold a block long enough for them to be able to get open. Hopefully that will not be a problem like last year as we have a different group up front with a hell of a lot more beef and nasty in them.

Denver Native (Carol)
08-26-2010, 02:16 PM
:focus::focus::focus:

topscribe
08-26-2010, 02:16 PM
I see this is a trend for you. You can't have an intelligent discussion without bringing up join dates, posts, or age. All three of those have little relevance to any topic you've discussed with me or any other poster.

Yeah, I can see that right now. Things such as facts are foreign to you.

Is there any way you noobs can discuss an issue without turning personal? Is it
that important to you? A disagreement on an issue should not be the blasting cap
for hostility.

You just got here: try to enjoy the forum and make it enjoyable to others.

-----

I Eat Staples
08-26-2010, 02:22 PM
Yeah, I can see that right now. Things such as facts are foreign to you.

Is there any way you noobs can discuss an issue without turning personal? Is it
that important to you? A disagreement on an issue should not be the blasting cap
for hostility.

You just got here: try to enjoy the forum and make it enjoyable to others.

-----

How about you take your own advice. Your attitude and superiority act make me hostile, not your difference in opinion.

topscribe
08-26-2010, 02:25 PM
How about you take your own advice. Your attitude and superiority act make me hostile, not your difference in opinion.

No, YOU make you hostile. Don't use me as an excuse. If I intimidate you that
much, there is an Ignore function to this site, so you can use that to put me on
Ignore.

Other than that, just try to debate an issue. If you become offended over
something, that becomes your problem. And when you fire back, you exacerbate
your problem. Just discuss the issues, and you will be fine.

Now, :focus:

-----

slim
08-26-2010, 02:26 PM
When I was in HS, I played WR.

I once ran a 4.7 forty. I don't think I could do that now.

Rex
08-26-2010, 02:27 PM
When I was in HS, I played WR.

I once ran a 4.7 forty. I don't think I could do that now.

Riiiiiiiight.

topscribe
08-26-2010, 02:28 PM
When I was in HS, I played WR.

I once ran a 4.7 forty. I don't think I could do that now.

I ran a 4.3 40.























That is, 4.3 yards in 40 seconds . . .



-----

slim
08-26-2010, 02:28 PM
Riiiiiiiight.

:welcome:

Rex
08-26-2010, 02:29 PM
I ran a 4.3 40.


That is, 4.3 yards in 40 seconds . . .



-----

How far behind you were your balls?

topscribe
08-26-2010, 02:30 PM
How far behind you were your balls?

I definitely know who you are . . . :nod:

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I Eat Staples
08-26-2010, 02:47 PM
No, YOU make you hostile. Don't use me as an excuse. If I intimidate you that
much, there is an Ignore function to this site, so you can use that to put me on
Ignore.

Other than that, just try to debate an issue. If you become offended over
something, that becomes your problem. And when you fire back, you exacerbate
your problem. Just discuss the issues, and you will be fine.

Now, :focus:

-----

Who said anything about being offended? I come here to talk about football. I don't make things personal, it's other posters, you being chief amongst them, that do that.

topscribe
08-26-2010, 02:58 PM
:focus:

-----

broncophan
08-26-2010, 03:09 PM
Then you missed out on some interesting stuff. It was a thoughtful well written post that you either might either agree or disagree with portions of. I thought it was pretty solid work, frankly, and deserved better than the "captain obvious" dig. He stuck to the topic of the strengths and gaps in Orton's game, backed up his POV pretty well, and did so without belittling people who might have a different view. Can't ask for more than that on a message board

:rolleyes:.....well ohhhhhhhh k. then....after learning that(one important thing to keep in mind) it is to Denvers benefit to have 2 quality qb's I just couldn't go on.....and that's fine with me if you want to call the "captain obvious" thing a dig....but it is what it is......and it most certainly isn't belittling anyone.

I'll take your word on the rest of the op's "solid work".