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Dean
08-21-2010, 08:49 PM
There is absolutely no pressure on the QB. :tsk: He has time to do whatever he wants. IMO we are going to be forced to bring two LBs on nearly every passing situation and that is not sound defense.

I wish Orton had hit either of the deep recievers that he had open. Someone explain again why he has so much trouble throwing deep. Surely they work on it in poractice.:confused:

Northman
08-21-2010, 08:53 PM
Well, Wink is da man cause evidently Nolan wasnt. Dont know what to tell ya.

silkamilkamonico
08-21-2010, 08:53 PM
Apaprently you aren't listening, or watching the the game.

Northman
08-21-2010, 08:55 PM
I have neither, but tomorrow ill be able to see what happened in this game. For now, i just got somewhat of a gamecast and the game thread.

silkamilkamonico
08-21-2010, 09:00 PM
I blame Nolan for our playoff collapse. Denver was ranked 27th defensively from after the bye week till the end of the year. No wonder why he wasn't fought over.

Northman
08-21-2010, 09:02 PM
I blame Nolan for our playoff collapse. Denver was ranked 27th defensively from after the bye week till the end of the year. No wonder why he wasn't fought over.

Could of been worse, could of not shown up at all like the offense and we would of never had a chance.

silkamilkamonico
08-21-2010, 09:05 PM
Offense was one of the most efficient in the NFL up until the bye week, and the statistics prove it. Damn Ryan Harris for getting hurt and the lack of oline depth.

Northman
08-21-2010, 09:09 PM
Offense was one of the most efficient in the NFL up until the bye week, and the statistics prove it. Damn Ryan Harris for getting hurt and the lack of oline depth.


They were about as efficient as the 08' squad. Good through the 20's but slightly worse in the redzone. Scoring was still a major problem for them last year.

silkamilkamonico
08-21-2010, 09:16 PM
A lot more efficient that the 08 squad. They weren't as explosive, but they averaged 4.3 ypc, and had a TD/INT ratio of 9-1. There weren't any other NFL teams that took care of the ball as well as they did offensively up until Denver's bye week. Their only achilles heal was scoring in the red zone like you said (but they didn't it over), and short yardage situations, although which was a glaring negative .

A lot they needed to improve, but it was almost a perfect forumla of offense if you combine it with the defense Denver had up until the bye week.

Northman
08-21-2010, 09:22 PM
As long as it ends in TD's than its a success.

Overtime
08-21-2010, 09:26 PM
i blame the defensive collapse on mcdaniels for not better addressing our defensive needs in the draft.

same will ring true this year.

i cant wait till McDaniels gets run out of Denver and we get a real coach, who will draft a REAL Quarterback, and put together a stout defense.

that's the only way we get better as a team.

Dean
08-21-2010, 09:28 PM
On a bright note, Orton is hitting some intermediate routes. However, we have got to find some way to pressure the QB.

I Eat Staples
08-21-2010, 09:33 PM
i blame the defensive collapse on mcdaniels for not better addressing our defensive needs in the draft.

same will ring true this year.

i cant wait till McDaniels gets run out of Denver and we get a real coach, who will draft a REAL Quarterback, and put together a stout defense.

that's the only way we get better as a team.

This^^^

underrated29
08-21-2010, 09:34 PM
how did you find this place staples???

Bosco
08-21-2010, 09:38 PM
From what I could see through the choppy stream, we appeared to be playing about as vanilla of a defense as you possibly can, which makes sense with all the players we're missing due to injury. I only saw us send a linebacker a couple times.

Bosco
08-21-2010, 09:41 PM
i blame the defensive collapse on mcdaniels for not better addressing our defensive needs in the draft. So who should he have picked?


same will ring true this year. How do you figure? We have 5 starting quality defensive linemen to rotate between 3 spots, the secondary is set for now and until Dumervil got hurt we had a very good linebacker corps as well.

I don't see too many rookies who could have come in and made early contributions given the depth we had.

I Eat Staples
08-21-2010, 09:57 PM
how did you find this place staples???

I typed "Bronco forums" in google, why? :confused:


So who should he have picked?

How do you figure? We have 5 starting quality defensive linemen to rotate between 3 spots, the secondary is set for now and until Dumervil got hurt we had a very good linebacker corps as well.

I don't see too many rookies who could have come in and made early contributions given the depth we had.

Who are those 5 quality linemen, in your opinion? And I'm not being sarcastic, I'd like to hear your opinion because I certainly don't see 5 good linemen.

Bosco
08-21-2010, 09:58 PM
Jarvis Moss came to play today. That's encouraging.

Bosco
08-21-2010, 09:58 PM
Who are those 5 quality linemen, in your opinion? And I'm not being sarcastic, I'd like to hear your opinion because I certainly don't see 5 good linemen.

Bannan, Williams, McBean, Fields, Green.

Dean
08-21-2010, 09:58 PM
Jarvis Moss now has a pressure and a sack. Maybe there is some hope.

BroncoSojia
08-21-2010, 10:00 PM
So who should he have picked?




Let's see; Bradon Graham, Dan Williams, Jared Ordrick, Koa Misi, Sergio Kindle, Torrell Troup, Lammar Houston, and many other good players D that we could've picked if we didn't trade down/up for Demaryius Thomas and Tebow.

Bosco
08-21-2010, 10:04 PM
Let's see; Bradon Graham, Dan Williams, Jared Ordrick, Koa Misi, Sergio Kindle, Torrell Troup, Lammar Houston, and many other good players D that we could've picked if we didn't trade down/up for Demaryius Thomas and Tebow.

I was referring to 2009. With the defensive free agents we've acquired we're pretty well set for the next year or so, while getting a legit X receiver was a huge gaping need.

underrated29
08-21-2010, 10:38 PM
I typed "Bronco forums" in google, why? :confused:







because you post at bronco mania or country or whatever it is called now.... Just did not expect to see you end up over here is all.

jhildebrand
08-21-2010, 10:45 PM
I blame Nolan for our playoff collapse. Denver was ranked 27th defensively from after the bye week till the end of the year. No wonder why he wasn't fought over.

Do you truly believe that? :confused:

He took the 28th Defense and had them #1 for much of the season and finished ranked 7th.

Second, you don't think all those three and outs, failed fourth downs, and short fields the offense gave the D had anything to do with it?

Oh and three games where the O had 8 minutes TOP. Of course that had nothing to do with it!

This team will rue the loss of Nolan and Miami will look really good with him there.


Offense was one of the most efficient in the NFL up until the bye week, and the statistics prove it. Damn Ryan Harris for getting hurt and the lack of oline depth.

Yet you neglect the fact that the D was #1 much through those 6 games not just "efficient." Hillarious :lol:

Stargazer
08-21-2010, 10:45 PM
Jared Ordrick.

He's going to be good.

jhildebrand
08-21-2010, 10:49 PM
So who should he have picked?

Orakpo :lol:



How do you figure? We have 5 starting quality defensive linemen to rotate between 3 spots, the secondary is set for now and until Dumervil got hurt we had a very good linebacker corps as well.

You've been raving about this all off season, especially Bannan who signed a decent deal and he has yet to crack the starting line up.



I don't see too many rookies who could have come in and made early contributions given the depth we had.

Again, Orakpo has shown time and again he was the better pick than Ayers and or Moreno.

silkamilkamonico
08-21-2010, 10:55 PM
how did you find this place staples???

Overtime told him about it on the Chargers message board.

jhildebrand
08-21-2010, 10:56 PM
The irony :eek:

silkamilkamonico
08-21-2010, 11:06 PM
Do you truly believe that? :confused:

He took the 28th Defense and had them #1 for much of the season and finished ranked 7th.

LOL You don't? The god forsaken defense in the second half of the season wasn't enough of a tell tale sign for you? We lost half of those games in the second half of the season because of our god forsaken defense.



Second, you don't think all those three and outs, failed fourth downs, and short fields the offense gave the D had anything to do with it?

Oh and three games where the O had 8 minutes TOP. Of course that had nothing to do with it!

259. That's how many yards one of Denver Broncos opponents had in 1 game....by 1 player!! Thanks for nothing Mike Nolan!




This team will rue the loss of Nolan and Miami will look really good with him there.

Right, him blowing the last half of the season for us with his terrible run adjustments did wonders.




Yet you neglect the fact that the D was #1 much through those 6 games not just "efficient." Hillarious :lol:

Yet you neglect the fact that the D progressively got worse as the season went on, which watched that #1 ranked defense plummet down to #7 in only 10 games. But way to completely "neglect" that one!

silkamilkamonico
08-21-2010, 11:08 PM
Brian Orakpo is a terrible argument. When Josh McDaniels made the genius idea of changing to a 3-4, and decided to move Elvis Dumervil to OLB, he envisioned a player that was better than Brian Orakpo, and he was right.

There goes the Brian Orakpo argument!

Lonestar
08-21-2010, 11:13 PM
Do you truly believe that? :confused:

He took the 28th Defense and had them #1 for much of the season and finished ranked 7th.

Second, you don't think all those three and outs, failed fourth downs, and short fields the offense gave the D had anything to do with it?

Oh and three games where the O had 8 minutes TOP. Of course that had nothing to do with it!

This team will rue the loss of Nolan and Miami will look really good with him there.



Yet you neglect the fact that the D was #1 much through those 6 games not just "efficient." Hillarious :lol:

got some links I find that hard to believe.

jhildebrand
08-21-2010, 11:14 PM
LOL You don't? The god forsaken defense in the second half of the season wasn't enough of a tell tale sign for you? We lost half of those games in the second half of the season because of our god forsaken defense.

Again, you neglect to realize just how much of the D's woes were a direct result of a PISS POOR offense.

Case in point, Indy was a 3 TO game, IIRC (2 Minimum), and what did the O do with any single turn over? JACK CRAP!

When you end a game +2 75% of history says it is a win.

Finally, how do you blame a D for three games where the O had an ASTOUNDING 8 minutes TOP in the second half. The D kept the Broncos in Pitt game. The O gave it away.

Oh and that KC game that was the D's fault...:lol: LAUGHABLE. Orton was throwing pick 6's in his best Jay Cutler impersonation!

That is before going for it several times on 4th down on our side of the field only to turn it over.



259. That's how many yards one of Denver Broncos opponents had in 1 game....by 1 player!! Thanks for nothing Mike Nolan!

How many pick 6's did Orton have? How many picks overall? How many 3 and outs. The O was way worse than the D.



Right, him blowing the last half of the season for us with his terrible run adjustments did wonders.

The run adjustments that McD ASKED for!





Yet you neglect the fact that the D progressively got worse as the season went on, which watched that #1 ranked defense plummet down to #7 in only 10 games. But way to completely "neglect" that one!

Well at least at season's end the D improved. In fact they improved in EVERY SINGLE statistical category whereas the O declined in every category.

Yet you are ready to throw them a ticker tape parade for being efficient for a few games :lol:

At the end of the day this team doesn't sniff 6-0 if the D doesn't hold teams scoreless in the second half of games and only allow 3 second half conversions out of 32 attemps. But don't worry, the O was efficient.

Bosco
08-21-2010, 11:17 PM
You've been raving about this all off season, especially Bannan who signed a decent deal and he has yet to crack the starting line up. Bannan started tonight, was listed in the CBS4 starting lineup and is listed as the starter on the official team depth chart.

I think you got him confused with Jarvis Green.


Again, Orakpo has shown time and again he was the better pick than Ayers and or Moreno. Time and time again? Don't you think it's a little early to be making that proclamation after just one season? Especially when Ayers was universally regarded as a project and Moreno was playing on a tweaked MCL behind a struggling O-Line?

jhildebrand
08-21-2010, 11:18 PM
Brian Orakpo is a terrible argument. When Josh McDaniels made the genius idea of changing to a 3-4, and decided to move Elvis Dumervil to OLB, he envisioned a player that was better than Brian Orakpo, and he was right.

There goes the Brian Orakpo argument!



Ayers played DE in a 4-3 at Tennessee. If that is a ringing endorsement to pick the guy, than I have oceanfront property in AZ for you.

jhildebrand
08-21-2010, 11:19 PM
Bannan started tonight, was listed in the CBS4 starting lineup and is listed as the starter on the official team depth chart.

I think you got him confused with Jarvis Green.

I think your right, Bosco. My bad




Time and time again? Don't you think it's a little early to be making that proclamation after just one season? Especially when Ayers was universally regarded as a project and Moreno was playing on a tweaked MCL behind a struggling O-Line?

Awefully high to be drafting a "project." If that is truly the case, than that only is MORE reason to go with Orakpo the safer pick.

Bosco
08-21-2010, 11:22 PM
You bash Overtime as if his opinions are some how inferior to yours and you come with this? :confused:

Ayers played DE in a 4-3 at Tennessee. If that is a ringing endorsement to pick the guy, than I have oceanfront property in AZ for you.

4-3 DE's routinely convert to OLB's in the 3-4 defense. The roles are actually pretty similar. I think what Silk was getting at though is that the Redskins, when they ran a 3-4 front, used Orakpo is the same role as we use Dumervil. Ayers plays SOLB which requires the more "jack of all trades" skillset.

Bosco
08-21-2010, 11:27 PM
Awefully high to be drafting a "project." If that is truly the case, than that only is MORE reason to go with Orakpo the safer pick. IIRC, Mike Mayock proclaimed that within 3 years, Ayers would be the best defensive player from that draft. That's pretty high praise from a well respected draft analyst.

Also, Ayers was projected to be top 15 pick by most people. We actually got him a little outside that range and did so knowing that we had two guys (Reid and Haggan) who could hold the fort as he developed.

silkamilkamonico
08-21-2010, 11:31 PM
Again, you neglect to realize just how much of the D's woes were a direct result of a PISS POOR offense.


Umm, no. When NYJets offense was struggling last year, did their DC coordinator say "---- it, I give up"...? Nice try though.


Case in point, Indy was a 3 TO game, IIRC (2 Minimum), and what did the O do with any single turn over? JACK CRAP!

So it's ok to just "quit" and give up 3 crucial TD's? Wow, that's an awesome competing mentality. When Big Ben was doing his famous Denver Broncos offense impression and going 3 and out and throwing turnovers in 2005, the defense stepped up and actually played defense. They didn't "quit" like Mike Nolan.





Finally, how do you blame a D for three games where the O had an ASTOUNDING 8 minutes TOP in the second half. The D kept the Broncos in Pitt game. The O gave it away.

I've blamed the O plenty of times in the past. Way to not bring that up though. The only problem is you aren't blaming the D and Mike Nolan, you're making excuses for them.

"It's ok to quit when the offense is struggling. Football is only a 1.5 unit succession!"




Oh and that KC game that was the D's fault...:lol: LAUGHABLE. Orton was throwing pick 6's in his best Jay Cutler impersonation!

Again, there you go with the "it's ok to quit when the offense is struggling" argument. Outstanding! I didn't realize Kansas City was adding to their rushing yards directly from the results of the interceptions!!




How many pick 6's did Orton have? How many picks overall? How many 3 and outs. The O was way worse than the D.

Again, when Big Ben was doing his famous Kyle Orton impersonation in 2005, his defensive coordinator didn't quit. He said "guys we can do this".





Well at least at season's end the D improved. In fact they improved in EVERY SINGLE statistical category whereas the O declined in every category.

They "improved"? LMAO Uhh, no they didn't. You said it yourself that they went from #1 ranked defense to #7 ranked defense by season's end. That's regression, not improvement. In the NFL, the lower number is better when it comes to team defensive stats.



Yet you are ready to throw them a ticker tape parade for being efficient for a few games :lol:

And you're saying it's ok for the defensive coordinator to quit when the offense struggles. LMAO



At the end of the day this team doesn't sniff 6-0 if the D doesn't hold teams scoreless in the second half of games and only allow 3 second half conversions out of 32 attemps. But don't worry, the O was efficient.

Again, another absurd argument of "this team held teams scoreless in the second half of 4 games this season, it's ok for them to quit when the offense is struggling!" Outstanding!

Overtime
08-21-2010, 11:31 PM
So who should he have picked?

my point is he went mainly offense in last years draft and this years draft, blatantly ignoring the needs we need to fill.

we didn't need Tim Tebow this year. we had a good project in Brandstater, and we could have taken a quality DB to start grooming to replace Champ Bailey. We could have taken some more talented D-Line help or LB help.

he's brought in an old has been in Dawkins. I like Dawkin's passion, but his age and ability to stay healthy is a liability.

if he really wants to get better on defense, we needed to go younger, and we need impact players.



I can't wait until the season starts, and you go back to San Diego and you're underachieving Chargers. Please pollute their message board with your football ignorance, and leave ours alone.

why is it you think im a chargers fan? :confused: i've been here awhile and I'll continue to be around regardless of whether you like it or not.

i've been a devout broncos fan since I was a little kid, but since 2006 this team has been walking around in circles, chasing it's tail trying to find an identity. for every step forward we take 2 or 3 steps back.

we've been through so many defensive coordinators that there is no possible way any defense could maintain a level of consistency over any period of time.

after Shanahan was fired I really thought Bowlen was serious about putting a contender back on the field, but so far we've ran off a Pro Bowl QB, a Pro Bowl WR, a damn good tight end, a bruiser in Hillis, a damn good Defensive Coordinator in Nolan, and we wasted a draft pick on Tim Tebow. We brought a completely worthless QB here who can't even accurately throw a deep ball, and has limited mobility. we drafted an overrated running back in Moreno who was maybe at best an early 2nd round pick, when there were so many other RB's that were much better available.

we were lucky to start 6-0 last year, and we proved it by going 2-8 down the stretch and having yet another epic collapse and missing the playoffs.

sorry for my cynism or skepticism, but a real fan isn't afraid to tell it like it is.

...unlike some other fans who wanna sugar coat everything, and look the other way, I'm not satisfied with where this team is, or where this team is headed currently and I'm not afraid to voice my displeasure right now.

Lonestar
08-21-2010, 11:32 PM
IIRC Project on Defense are drafted all the time..

VERY few ever come out and bring the heat the first year and so far his year looks like he is a much better OLB than anyone we have had.

silkamilkamonico
08-21-2010, 11:35 PM
You bash Overtime as if his opinions are some how inferior to yours and you come with this? :confused:

He's using a preseason game to validify his argument. Or do you too, agree, that Bruce Gradkowski is arguably the greatest NFL QB of all time as well?

LMAO


Ayers played DE in a 4-3 at Tennessee. If that is a ringing endorsement to pick the guy, than I have oceanfront property in AZ for you.

May I remind you where Demarcus Ware, and Shawn Merrimen played, and what position? Or are you going to file that under the "their offense don't turn the football over and go 3 and out" argument?

LMAO

jhildebrand
08-21-2010, 11:35 PM
got some links I find that hard to believe.

PM me your email and I will send you the game books :D

I'll get you started

Pittsburgh second half TOP for the Broncos:
3rd quarter: 4:14
4th quareter: 3:27

not even 8 minutes! I guess I was being nice.

Washington:
3rd Quarter: 5:28
4th Quarter: 3:23

silkamilkamonico
08-21-2010, 11:37 PM
why is it you think im a chargers fan? :confused: i've been here awhile and I'll continue to be around regardless of whether you like it or not.

i've been a devout broncos fan since I was a little kid, but since 2006 this team has been walking around in circles, chasing it's tail trying to find an identity. for every step forward we take 2 or 3 steps back.

we've been through so many defensive coordinators that there is no possible way any defense could maintain a level of consistency over any period of time.

after Shanahan was fired I really thought Bowlen was serious about putting a contender back on the field, but so far we've ran off a Pro Bowl QB, a Pro Bowl WR, a damn good tight end, a bruiser in Hillis, a damn good Defensive Coordinator in Nolan, and we wasted a draft pick on Tim Tebow. We brought a completely worthless QB here who can't even accurately throw a deep ball, and has limited mobility. we drafted an overrated running back in Moreno who was maybe at best an early 2nd round pick, when there were so many other RB's that were much better available.

we were lucky to start 6-0 last year, and we proved it by going 2-8 down the stretch and having yet another epic collapse and missing the playoffs.

sorry for my cynism or skepticism, but a real fan isn't afraid to tell it like it is.

so maybe go piss on yourself, because unlike some other fans who wanna sugar coat everything, and look the other way, I'm not satisfied with where this team is, or where this team is headed currently and I'm not afraid to voice my displeasure right now.

Your boy Quinn looked real good tonight didn't he.

LMAO

jhildebrand
08-21-2010, 11:37 PM
May I remind you where Demarcus Ware, and Shawn Merrimen played, and what position? Or are you going to file that under the "their offense don't turn the football over and go 3 and out" argument?

LMAO

Merriman and Ware weren't considered the REACH that AYERS was. LOL. Furthermore, they also play for teams whose offense could and did score.

Bosco asked who and I replied Orakpo. You came up with the silly argument that Orakpo and his college alignment automatically ruled him out and Bosco argued Ayers was a good pick but a project. You don't draft a project at #12 when you know there is a more solid pick like Orakpo. I will grant Bosco the idea that you don't judge them after one season. However, as of now, that is all we can judge them on.

Lonestar
08-21-2010, 11:38 PM
my point is he went mainly offense in last years draft and this years draft, blatantly ignoring the needs we need to fill.

we didn't need Tim Tebow this year. we had a good project in Brandstater, and we could have taken a quality DB to start grooming to replace Champ Bailey. We could have taken some more talented D-Line help or LB help.
.
Just to address this comment

Back in 06 we did not need jay either but mikey thought he could TRADE UP and get his FQB that has been sorely missing since John retired.

Right or wrong HC do these things.

silkamilkamonico
08-21-2010, 11:41 PM
Merriman and Ware weren't considered the REACH that AYERS was. LOL. Furthermore, they also play for teams whose offense could and did score.

:elefant::lol::elefant:




Bosco asked who and I replied Orakpo. You came up with the silly argument that Orakpo and his college alignment automatically ruled him out and Bosco argued Ayers was a good pick but a project. You don't draft a project at #12 when you know there is a more solid pick like Orakpo. I will grant Bosco the idea that you don't judge them after one season. However, as of now, that is all we can judge them on.

Orakpo was drafted as a pass rushing LB, where Ayers was not. Did you not get that memo on draft day?

sneakers
08-21-2010, 11:52 PM
Don't worry we have Jarvis Moss on the case!

sneakers
08-21-2010, 11:52 PM
Validify??? Really? Where the **** did you learn your grammar at? That's not even a word!

It's "VALIDATE".

No need for me to continue this conversation with you as you can't use proper grammar which clearly indicates you're still in about the 6th or 7th grade. Run along to bed little boy, it's way past your bed time.

Most people speak at a 6th grade level.

Overtime
08-21-2010, 11:54 PM
Just to address this comment

Back in 06 we did not need jay either but mikey thought he could TRADE UP and get his FQB that has been sorely missing since John retired.

Right or wrong HC do these things.

Plummer was clearly a problem and there was no one in line behind Plummer, so Cutler was pretty much necessary.

that wasn't the case this year. We had Orton, Brandstater and Quinn, and to be honest, with what I saw out of Brandstater in those final pre-season games last year, he looked a lot sharper than either Orton or Simms.

jhildebrand
08-21-2010, 11:55 PM
Umm, no. When NYJets offense was struggling last year, did their DC coordinator say "---- it, I give up"...? Nice try though.

The difference is the Jets could and did run the ball. LOL. Football 101, Silk.

Not only did this team NOT run the ball it couldn't and when it did our GENIUS HC chose LaMont Jordan over a fresh and healthy HILLIS!

That was a cute attempt.




So it's ok to just "quit" and give up 3 crucial TD's?

Where did I say quit? Classic Silk. When confronted with a legitimate counter point you try to put words in peoples mouth. Where did I say they quit. Kind of hard to defend the endzone when youre on the field more than any other unit, your back against your own endzone, oh and Manning is the opposing QB. :lol:

Why did the offense quit despite getting 3 TO's, Silk? :confused:


When Big Ben was doing his famous Denver Broncos offense impression and going 3 and out and throwing turnovers in 2005, the defense stepped up and actually played defense. They didn't "quit" like Mike Nolan.

Difference is Pittsburgh had an established team, the SAME DC for 2 and a half decades and an entire UNIT that had little change!

Football 101 silk. Even then Pitts D never ranked like Nolan's did and he was "a new coach, a new system, new players, and castoffs that nobody else wanted." THE VERY SAME EXCUSE EVERYBODY WANTS TO MAKE FOR MCD!!!!!



I've blamed the O plenty of times in the past. Way to not bring that up though. The only problem is you aren't blaming the D and Mike Nolan, you're making excuses for them.

Why would I bring up any of your criticisms of the O? I don't care! Furthermore, unlike you I am not trying to insist the D's fault was so simple to diagnose! Sure the D was responsible for their failures but the O had A LOT TO DO WITH IT. Where as the O's failures weren't because of the D. Look at the Pitt game. The D gave them the lead late in the 3rd. The O gave it up. Indy, the D gave them the ball and the O got 3 points!



"It's ok to quit when the offense is struggling. Football is only a 1.5 unit succession!"

Where did I say they quit :lol:



Again, there you go with the "it's ok to quit when the offense is struggling" argument. Outstanding! I didn't realize Kansas City was adding to their rushing yards directly from the results of the interceptions!!

I guess I can keep schooling you in football 101. Ortons pick 6's not only made the O one dimensional, but they kept the D on the field. Kind of hard to produce with NO BREAK whatsoever.




Again, when Big Ben was doing his famous Kyle Orton impersonation in 2005, his defensive coordinator didn't quit. He said "guys we can do this".


Cute. Again, How long was LaBeau the DC? How many players were new to that unit? Was the scheme and system new? NOPE! This is laughable I could go on for days with your fallacies. At least I wont tell you to go back to the Chargers boards :rolleyes:

This is like insisting Trent Dilfer was the reason the Ravens won the SB.



They "improved"? LMAO Uhh, no they didn't. You said it yourself that they went from #1 ranked defense to #7 ranked defense by season's end. That's regression, not improvement. In the NFL, the lower number is better when it comes to team defensive stats.

THE D IMPROVED STATISTICALLY IN EVERY CATEGORY POSSIBLE vs THE 08 TEAM where as the O declined in every category. Who cares if they went from the 1st ranked D to the 7th. THEY IMPROVED. The O only got worse and worse!

Don't worry though, I will always remember their amazing spell of EFFICIENCY :lol:



And you're saying it's ok for the defensive coordinator to quit when the offense struggles. LMAO

Yep I said that. LOL. Maybe McD shouldn't have been tinkering with the D and should have been focused on the O. After all he is the O wizard! Yet at the end of the day, he meddled!



Again, another absurd argument of "this team held teams scoreless in the second half of 4 games this season, it's ok for them to quit when the offense is struggling!" Outstanding!

The offense struggled ALL SEASON! Furthermore, NOBODY SAID THEY QUIT. You can say they GOT WORN OUT because the O couldn't stay on the field long enough to tie your shoes.



Quite frankly, I'm embarassed to think that we actually have some fans that promote a quitting mentality when a side of the ball is struggling, like yourself. It's added thought pollution to this board, and in all honesty, I expect better from the Denver Bronco fanbase.

Quite frankly I am embarassed that you think it is ok to tell Overtime to go to the chargers board and act as though your opinion is somehow superior and of higher intellect.

Its sad that your only tactic is to put words in people's mouths. It detracts from the boards!

Truthfully, I expect more from the Denver fanbase too.

GGMoogly
08-21-2010, 11:56 PM
I think validify is a nice word. :2thumbs:

silkamilkamonico
08-21-2010, 11:57 PM
Validify??? Really? Where the **** did you learn your grammar at? That's not even a word!

It's "VALIDATE".

No need for me to continue this conversation with you as you can't use proper grammar which clearly indicates you're still in about the 6th or 7th grade. Run along to bed little boy, it's way past your bed time.

Validify is the verb form of validate.

http://www3.merriam-webster.com/opendictionary/newword_search.php?word=validify

You are just, too, much..

LMAO

jhildebrand
08-21-2010, 11:57 PM
Orakpo was drafted as a pass rushing LB, where Ayers was not. Did you not get that memo on draft day?

You're talking in circles!

Ayers was drafted as a 4-3 DE to play as a pass rushing OLB. Funny, he SUCKED at that last year.

Orakpo was drafted as a pass rushing LB who played with and without his hand in the dirt. Seems to me it is clear that is the SAFER, BETTER, and MORE LOGICAL pick. :lol:

Northman
08-21-2010, 11:58 PM
Should of seen me trying to pronounce "Guantanamo Bay" to my wife. I butchered the hell out of it and she constantly makes fun of me for it. lol

Bosco
08-22-2010, 12:01 AM
my point is he went mainly offense in last years draft and this years draft, blatantly ignoring the needs we need to fill. He went for the offense because that's what needed the upgrading, and because the 2009 draft was pretty poor for 3-4 defensive talent. Our 2009 defense was very good until we wore down and got figured out, hence why we went out and signed three new defensive linemen.

In short, we got the bodies to keep us competitive on defense for the next 2-3 years. In that time we'll be able to add plenty of elite youth talent and if everything comes together they'll be playing with an offense that is dropping 25+ ppg on defenses with consistency.


we didn't need Tim Tebow this year. we had a good project in Brandstater, and we could have taken a quality DB to start grooming to replace Champ Bailey. We could have taken some more talented D-Line help or LB help. I'm sorry, but if you think Tom Brandstater is even in the same universe as Tim Tebow, you're really out to lunch here. Brandstater was a good player in a very weak conference, while Tebow was an elite, Heisman Trophy winning player in the toughest conference in college football. To suggest that his presence alone should have dissuaded us from taking Tebow is laughable. In a semi-best case scenario, Brandstater would have been our Matt Cassel or Gary Kubiak. Tim Tebow has the chance to develop into an elite quarterback and that alone is one of the biggest pieces of the "constantly-going-to-the-playoffs" puzzle.

He did take that DB to start grooming behind Bailey. His name is Alphonso Smith. To a lesser extent, so is Perrish Cox.

Who would we have taken at D-Line? The 2009 draft class was complete crap for 3-4 DLs and the few legitimate prospects available ended up getting over picked on scarcity alone. We were able to bypass them in 2010 because of our free agency class and in lieu of harder to find prospects (Thomas and Tebow). We spent the 18th overall pick on an OLB in 2009 and already had Dumervil and D.J there so using more premium draft picks on that position would have been rather unwise.


he's brought in an old has been in Dawkins. I like Dawkin's passion, but his age and ability to stay healthy is a liability. Dawkins played some of the best football of his career last year and our 2009 second round pick (McBath) is lined up behind him and seemed more than up to the task when subbing for Dawkins in 2009.


if he really wants to get better on defense, we needed to go younger, and we need impact players. We will. It's not hard to see that Josh is assembling a core of very capable veterans who will mentor their younger proteges. Look right to Josh's roots to see where that philosophy comes from.

jhildebrand
08-22-2010, 12:02 AM
I think validify is a nice word. :2thumbs:

It works in third person singular simple present i.e. He needed to validify.

I think Silk wanted Overtime to VALIDATE his argument

jhildebrand
08-22-2010, 12:04 AM
Dawkins played some of the best football of his career last year and our 2009 second round pick (McBath) is lined up behind him and seemed more than up to the task when subbing for Dawkins in 2009.



I agreed with your post but this part. Dawk looked slow and behind in the last quarter of the season. I recall him getting beat more than a few times.

I do like McBath but he has to stay healthy.

GGMoogly
08-22-2010, 12:09 AM
It works in third person singular simple present i.e. He needed to validify.

I think Silk wanted Overtime to VALIDATE his argument

That might have been a better word choice, but validify seems perfectly cromulent... :coffee:

jhildebrand
08-22-2010, 12:10 AM
That might have been a better word choice, but validify seems perfectly cromulent... :coffee:

Cromulent?

Ok...hold on a sec....

Ok works for me! :D

JaxBroncoGirl
08-22-2010, 12:17 AM
Your boy Quinn looked real good tonight didn't he.

LMAO

Just please go back to the SD message boards.

Actually if we do not pull it together we are going to look like the Jaguars, and we do not want that. With that being said, we still need a leader at the QB position. Say what you want, we still need a leader.

silkamilkamonico
08-22-2010, 12:17 AM
The difference is the Jets could and did run the ball. LOL. Football 101, Silk.

What about the Pittsburgh Steelers?




Not only did this team NOT run the ball it couldn't and when it did our GENIUS HC chose LaMont Jordan over a fresh and healthy HILLIS!

That was a cute attempt.



Therefor, it's ok for the defense to quit, according to you.




Where did I say quit? Classic Silk. When confronted with a legitimate counter point you try to put words in peoples mouth. Where did I say they quit. Kind of hard to defend the endzone when youre on the field more than any other unit, your back against your own endzone, oh and Manning is the opposing QB. :lol:

Why did the offense quit despite getting 3 TO's, Silk? :confused:


Even worse, you attempt to make excuses. If the offense quit they would not have turned the football over, they would have kneeled, or given up 246 yards rushing to 1 football player. "Football 101, Jhil. LoL



Difference is Pittsburgh had an established team, the SAME DC for 2 and a half decades and an entire UNIT that had little change!

So if you don't have an established team, it's ok to quit? LOL Unbelievable.



Football 101 silk. Even then Pitts D never ranked like Nolan's did and he was "a new coach, a new system, new players, and castoffs that nobody else wanted." THE VERY SAME EXCUSE EVERYBODY WANTS TO MAKE FOR MCD!!!!!

Great argument. "Who needs to finish games instead of quitting when you have a high ranking statistically!!"

LMAO

[QUOTE=jhildebrand;1040755]
Why would I bring up any of your criticisms of the O? I don't care! Furthermore, unlike you I am not trying to insist the D's fault was so simple to diagnose! Sure the D was responsible for their failures but the O had A LOT TO DO WITH IT. Where as the O's failures weren't because of the D. Look at the Pitt game. The D gave them the lead late in the 3rd. The O gave it up. Indy, the D gave them the ball and the O got 3 points!

The offense wasn't even on the field when they were giving up 246 yards rushing, to 1 person.

LMAO

[QUOTE=jhildebrand;1040755]
Where did I say they quit :lol:

It's subtly written everywhere in your posts. The comment I responded to just above this is one example. And now you're trying to tell me that somehow the offense is out on the field when the opponent is running the ball.

:lol:




I guess I can keep schooling you in football 101. Ortons pick 6's not only made the O one dimensional, but they kept the D on the field. Kind of hard to produce with NO BREAK whatsoever.

You're a football star. Especially when your placing the offense out on the field at the same time of the defense. I don't even think Mike Nolan could do that!





Cute. Again, How long was LaBeau the DC? How many players were new to that unit? Was the scheme and system new? NOPE! This is laughable I could go on for days with your fallacies. At least I wont tell you to go back to the Chargers boards :rolleyes:

What does length have to do with anything? If I didn't know any better, I would start to think you were now trying to make excuses for Mcdaniels struggles on offense last year!



This is like insisting Trent Dilfer was the reason the Ravens won the SB.

According to your argument, Trent Dilfer wasn't turning the ball over, so the defense was allowed to continue playing. Either that, or Trent Dilfer's offense was left off the field somehow when the Ravens defense was not quitting.




THE D IMPROVED STATISTICALLY IN EVERY CATEGORY POSSIBLE vs THE 08 TEAM where as the O declined in every category. Who cares if they went from the 1st ranked D to the 7th. THEY IMPROVED. The O only got worse and worse!

The offense did not decline in very category. I also love how people argue how the offense got worse as the season went on because Kyle Orton started turning the ball over, but the defense improved in every statistical category, even though their on field performance continued to regress as the season went on, just like Kyle Orton and the offense.



Don't worry though, I will always remember their amazing spell of EFFICIENCY :lol:

Congratulations on your gold star in spelling for the day. You are truly a grammer genius!

[QUOTE=jhildebrand;1040755]
Yep I said that. LOL. Maybe McD shouldn't have been tinkering with the D and should have been focused on the O. After all he is the O wizard! Yet at the end of the day, he meddled!

Just like Mike Nolan's defense. Now you're starting to understand!




The offense struggled ALL SEASON! Furthermore, NOBODY SAID THEY QUIT. You can say they GOT WORN OUT because the O couldn't stay on the field long enough to tie your shoes.

No, they didn't. They did not struggle in the first 6 games, just like the defense did not struggle. This is a rehashed argument that's been proven false time and time again. It's almost as bad as you saying the defense sturggled at the end of the year giving up rushing yards because the offense was somehow running out on the field and assisting the opponents RB's.

honz
08-22-2010, 12:19 AM
i blame the defensive collapse on mcdaniels for not better addressing our defensive needs in the draft.

same will ring true this year.

i cant wait till McDaniels gets run out of Denver and we get a real coach, who will draft a REAL Quarterback, and put together a stout defense.

that's the only way we get better as a team.
Knowshon Moreno is da man.

silkamilkamonico
08-22-2010, 12:20 AM
You're talking in circles!

Ayers was drafted as a 4-3 DE to play as a pass rushing OLB. Funny, he SUCKED at that last year.

Orakpo was drafted as a pass rushing LB who played with and without his hand in the dirt. Seems to me it is clear that is the SAFER, BETTER, and MORE LOGICAL pick. :lol:

No, he wasn't. He was drafted to fill in as a hybrid DE, and strong side LB, with also the possibility to play weak side. Elvis Dumervil was slated for the pass rushing OLB. The coaching staff even though about having Ayers gain weight and play the DE in a 3-4. Elvis Dumervil played with, and without his hand in the dirt too. Are you saying that Brian Orakpo played the same position as Elvis Dumervil? :shocked:

silkamilkamonico
08-22-2010, 12:23 AM
It works in third person singular simple present i.e. He needed to validify.

I think Silk wanted Overtime to VALIDATE his argument

If I wanted him to validate his argument, I would have asked for it. Considering his argument was already made and dead in the water, I used validified as past tense. If you would like to correct that grammar nazi, feel free, I will even give you another gold star!

Bosco
08-22-2010, 12:24 AM
You're talking in circles!

Ayers was drafted as a 4-3 DE to play as a pass rushing OLB. Funny, he SUCKED at that last year. Did he? There several plays during the year where he collapsed the pocket and Dumervil or another player would get the sack.

His level of play was about what you should expect from a project player playing behind two established vets.


Orakpo was drafted as a pass rushing LB who played with and without his hand in the dirt. Seems to me it is clear that is the SAFER, BETTER, and MORE LOGICAL pick. :lol: How do you figure that? First off, Orakpo comes from Texas, a school well known for getting by on sheer physical superiority and whose players have a tough time adjusting to the NFL where technique actually matters since you're not the biggest, fastest and strongest guy on the field anymore. That alone raises alot of doubt as to the "logical" and "safer" part. Furthermore, two highly respected linebacker coaches (Wink and Nolan) and a defensive line coach (Nunnely) all worked with and evaluated Ayers pre-draft. I imagine that if there was any consensus as to Orakpo being the better pick, we would have picked him.

Better? Possibly, but too early to call. In 2006 Mark Anderson outperformed Elvis Dumervil and had many Broncos fans upset that we didn't pick him instead, however as the Bears defense declined so did Mark Anderson's performance, while Dumervil has only played better and better. These days Elvis Dumervil is a household name, Pro Bowler and reigning sack king. Most people have to look up Mark Anderson's name to find out who he is.

My point? Don't be so quick to anoint a champion after only one year.

silkamilkamonico
08-22-2010, 12:26 AM
Actually if we do not pull it together we are going to look like the Jaguars, and we do not want that. With that being said, we still need a leader at the QB position. Say what you want, we still need a leader.

I think if we have a bad year, McDaniels might get fired, and maybe we can finish with a bad enough record where we can actually draft a QB that can lead us.

jhildebrand
08-22-2010, 01:23 AM
What about the Pittsburgh Steelers?

What about the steelers. You want more schooling? :confused:

Try and tell me the 05 Steelers won the SB on Roethlisbergers arm. They didn't! They could RUN the BALL and PLAY Defense. Oh and they got a little help from the refs too!





Therefor, it's ok for the defense to quit, according to you.


There's that weak tactic. Please point to where I even INSINUATE and MORE SPECIFICALLY STATE that the D QUIT.

You can't. Just face it you aren't as smart and superior as you portrayed yourself to be trying to put down Overtime.



Even worse, you attempt to make excuses. If the offense quit they would not have turned the football over, they would have kneeled, or given up 246 yards rushing to 1 football player. "Football 101, Jhil. LoL


The offense didn't need to quit! The offense couldn't do anything! The 3 and outs were enough.



So if you don't have an established team, it's ok to quit? LOL Unbelievable.

Cute, kiddo.




It's subtly written everywhere in your posts. Really? :confused: If it is everywhere, post one example of where I said the D quit.



The comment I responded to just above this is one example. And now you're trying to tell me that somehow the offense is out on the field when the opponent is running the ball.

You cannot even follow a simple argument. :lol: Orton's pick six's made the o one dimensional-pass only-leading to more 3 and outs or turnovers, ultimately placing the D on the field far more than they should have been.




According to your argument, Trent Dilfer wasn't turning the ball over, so the defense was allowed to continue playing. Either that, or Trent Dilfer's offense was left off the field somehow when the Ravens defense was not quitting.

Or their D was good enough to continually give the ball to Dilfer and company. At some point wearing down the opposing D (sound familiar). They weren't exactly offensive powerhouses winning games 10-7. LOL.

Damn man, do you even watch football let alone understand the simple tenets?



The offense did not decline in very category. I also love how people argue how the offense got worse as the season went on because Kyle Orton started turning the ball over, but the defense improved in every statistical category, even though their on field performance continued to regress as the season went on, just like Kyle Orton and the offense.

09 D IMPROVED vs the 08 D in every single category: run D, pass, D, overall D, turnovers, etc...DESPITE having a new coach, a new system, new players

The 09 O declined vs the 08 O in every category.



Congratulations on your gold star in spelling for the day. You are truly a grammer genius!

I wasn't even talking about spelling! :lol: I was making fun of your willingness to throw a ticker tape parade for the Offenses uncharacteristic spell of efficiency early in the season. Efficiency which was a direct result of a stout D and nothing more.

This is boring. You cannot even follow a conversation.



No, they didn't. They did not struggle in the first 6 games, just like the defense did not struggle. This is a rehashed argument that's been proven false time and time again. It's almost as bad as you saying the defense sturggled at the end of the year giving up rushing yards because the offense was somehow running out on the field and assisting the opponents RB's.

Again, I don't see how you fail to recognize a simple concept that the O's inability to produce even first downs let alone points, sustained drives, 3rd down and 4th down conversions etc...led to a worn out D. A D built by FA's, whethered by age, with a new coordinator, a new system, and new coaches.

From now on you should probably refer to me as the professor because I continue to school you. Don't worry! You wont have to because I am done with you until you can show me in my plain words that I said the D quit.

jhildebrand
08-22-2010, 01:31 AM
Did he? There several plays during the year where he collapsed the pocket and Dumervil or another player would get the sack.

His level of play was about what you should expect from a project player playing behind two established vets.

Again, if he was such a PROJECT why draft him at 12? He would have been there at 18 or whatever it was we had where we took Moreno!

Please answer that! With a team with so many needs on D-coming from the 08 season-why draft a PROJECT??????




How do you figure that? First off, Orakpo comes from Texas, a school well known for getting by on sheer physical superiority and whose players have a tough time adjusting to the NFL where technique actually matters since you're not the biggest, fastest and strongest guy on the field anymore. That alone raises alot of doubt as to the "logical" and "safer" part. Furthermore, two highly respected linebacker coaches (Wink and Nolan) and a defensive line coach (Nunnely) all worked with and evaluated Ayers pre-draft. I imagine that if there was any consensus as to Orakpo being the better pick, we would have picked him.

Well that raises even more questions. If Nolan had any say so in Ayers as you suggest and McD allowed that pick, based in part on Nolan's assessment, why fire Nolan and make the change and be left with a PROJECT that might not fit the new DC (who would have been Pees had he not turned McD down)?

Furthermore, when the pick was made SEVERAL people scoffed at it including the biggest McD homers here in DMAC and Mike Evans on the Fan, Alfred Williams still decries the pick over Orakpo, IIRC McShay and doucheman Kiper weren't about it.

Finally, say what you will about TX and players going to the pros. I don't discount any of that. But just as much can be made about Ayers success belonging in large part to D Williams at TN and playing for a Pro DC in Monte Kiffin.




Better? Possibly, but too early to call. In 2006 Mark Anderson outperformed Elvis Dumervil and had many Broncos fans upset that we didn't pick him instead, however as the Bears defense declined so did Mark Anderson's performance, while Dumervil has only played better and better. These days Elvis Dumervil is a household name, Pro Bowler and reigning sack king. Most people have to look up Mark Anderson's name to find out who he is.

My point? Don't be so quick to anoint a champion after only one year.

I already credit you for that idea. I don't disagree with it in anyway. As it stands right now though ALL WE HAVE TO JUDGE EITHER PLAYER BY IS THEIR ROOKIE SEASON. After their rookie season Orakpo is ahead of Ayers.

jhildebrand
08-22-2010, 01:32 AM
I think if we have a bad year, McDaniels might get fired, and maybe we can finish with a bad enough record where we can actually draft a QB that can lead us.

I think this team could go 3-13 or 4-12 and McD wouldn't be fired. The Orton signing if anything is an indication of that. IMO McD wont have a make or break year until season 3.

Bosco
08-22-2010, 01:54 AM
Again, if he was such a PROJECT why draft him at 12? He would have been there at 18 or whatever it was we had where we took Moreno!

Please answer that! With a team with so many needs on D-coming from the 08 season-why draft a PROJECT?????? We did draft him at 18. Moreno was 12.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_NFL_Draft


Well that raises even more questions. If Nolan had any say so in Ayers as you suggest and McD allowed that pick, based in part on Nolan's assessment, why fire Nolan and make the change and be left with a PROJECT that might not fit the new DC (who would have been Pees had he not turned McD down)? Pees was just a rumor. He never turned down a chance to come here and was never even formally interviewed, much less offered the job.

Wink is a very good LB coach himself. I doubt he will have any problems fitting Ayers into his scheme. Even had we gone with Pees, he coordinated the Pats defense which is what McD had Nolan run, so there shouldn't have been any dropoff there.


Furthermore, when the pick was made SEVERAL people scoffed at it including the biggest McD homers here in DMAC and Mike Evans on the Fan, Alfred Williams still decries the pick over Orakpo, IIRC McShay and doucheman Kiper weren't about it. If Kiper and McShay hated the move, that's just more evidence that it was the right pick.


Finally, say what you will about TX and players going to the pros. I don't discount any of that. But just as much can be made about Ayers success belonging in large part to D Williams at TN and playing for a Pro DC in Monte Kiffin. That's a fair take. We'll have to see how it plays out.


I already credit you for that idea. I don't disagree with it in anyway. As it stands right now though ALL WE HAVE TO JUDGE EITHER PLAYER BY IS THEIR ROOKIE SEASON. After their rookie season Orakpo is ahead of Ayers. But we're also in agreement that after only 1 year it's pointless to try to declare who was the better pick, right?

dogfish
08-22-2010, 02:02 AM
Actually if we do not pull it together we are going to look like the Jaguars, and we do not want that. With that being said, we still need a leader at the QB position. Say what you want, we still need a leader.


http://img822.imageshack.us/img822/7034/1o13dx.gif (http://img822.imageshack.us/i/1o13dx.gif/)


boosh!

dogfish
08-22-2010, 02:08 AM
How do you figure that? First off, Orakpo comes from Texas, a school well known for getting by on sheer physical superiority and whose players have a tough time adjusting to the NFL where technique actually matters since you're not the biggest, fastest and strongest guy on the field anymore. That alone raises alot of doubt as to the "logical" and "safer" part. Furthermore, two highly respected linebacker coaches (Wink and Nolan) and a defensive line coach (Nunnely) all worked with and evaluated Ayers pre-draft. I imagine that if there was any consensus as to Orakpo being the better pick, we would have picked him.

there was also concern about orakpo's durability-- he was highly touted, but he certainly wasn't the consensus top pass rusher. . . if he had been, he probably would've gone higher than 13th. . .

he did have a great first year, but he needs to string a few more healthy, productive years together before any conclusive statements can be made about his career beyond that he's proven he can be a good player at this level. . .

Dean
08-22-2010, 06:31 AM
Where are the Broncos going to get a pass rush from? Moss showed a little. In order to win this year, either by talent or scheme pass rush pressure must be dramatically increased.

HORSEPOWER 56
08-22-2010, 08:25 AM
Where are the Broncos going to get a pass rush from? Moss showed a little. In order to win this year, either by talent or scheme pass rush pressure must be dramatically increased.

While I completely agree with your analysis, I do have one thing to add to the discussion. Is it just me or are the Broncos playing extremely vanilla on defense thus far? Both Cincy and Detroit blitzed a lot. I have yet to really see the Broncos bring more than 4 rushers. Most of the time on obvious passing situations, we've rushed 3. Last night when Stanton converted that 3rd and 17 I couldn't believe that we only brought 3 rushers. Had we brought the heat, it would've forced a quick throw underneath, not allowing Stanton to stand around for 5+ seconds and find a guy 25 yds downfield. Stanton (and Stafford and Smith before that) had all day to throw on 3rd down last night because we were dropping 8 into coverage. None of our D linemen are talented enough to beat double teams and really rush the passer effectively on 3rd down.

Remember, Our "improved" DL was built to stop the run. Williams, McBean, Bannon, etc are big bodies to clog lanes and stop the run, not really to get pressure (that's supposed to be why we brought in Jarvis "i got paid, now i don't have to produce" Green to be a pass rushing 3-4 end specialist but he's failed to impress in camp and is buried on the depth chart).

I think pressure might get a little better when the scheme and defensive calls improve and get more aggressive. I doubt McDaniels will let Wink just sit back and drop 8 into coverage much during the regular season. If he was upset about Nolan's defense, I can't imagine he's not in Wink's ear about this.

JaxBroncoGirl
08-22-2010, 11:45 AM
I think if we have a bad year, McDaniels might get fired, and maybe we can finish with a bad enough record where we can actually draft a QB that can lead us.

Yawn, we already have one.

Ravage!!!
08-22-2010, 01:33 PM
I blame Nolan for our playoff collapse. Denver was ranked 27th defensively from after the bye week till the end of the year. No wonder why he wasn't fought over.


Offense was one of the most efficient in the NFL up until the bye week, and the statistics prove it. Damn Ryan Harris for getting hurt and the lack of oline depth.

So the defense was ok before the bye, and the offense was ok before the bye. Seems it was easy for the offense to be efficient when the defense is keeping the other team from scoring at all in the second half.

Bosco
08-22-2010, 02:16 PM
Is it just me or are the Broncos playing extremely vanilla on defense thus far?

They are. Did the same thing (though to a lesser extent) in 2009. We'll turn the heat up when the season starts.

dogfish
08-22-2010, 03:51 PM
Where are the Broncos going to get a pass rush from? Moss showed a little. In order to win this year, either by talent or scheme pass rush pressure must be dramatically increased.

i don't think there's any guarantee that we ARE going to get one, but if we do seems like moss and/or ayers would be the prime suspects. . .

i'd actually feel a little better about the situation if darrell reid would get healthy. . . i'm not counting on haggan to prove much rush. . . it's tough to say off two pre-season games, but it seems that they've taken extended looks at alexander and williams outside. . .

we'll see, right?

rcsodak
08-22-2010, 04:38 PM
There is absolutely no pressure on the QB. :tsk: He has time to do whatever he wants. IMO we are going to be forced to bring two LBs on nearly every passing situation and that is not sound defense.

I wish Orton had hit either of the deep recievers that he had open. Someone explain again why he has so much trouble throwing deep. Surely they work on it in poractice.:confused:

Dean, you act like this is your first football game. lol

We both know the percentage of long completions is less than 50%. Even less when the qb is under duress.

Orton was running for his life and still came close to hitting his wr's. Not to mention, the announcers even said it looked like the wr's slowed down. They need to be tutored to keep running their routes until the whistle blows...especially if Orton's gonna be running around like Elway use to. LOL

rcsodak
08-22-2010, 04:50 PM
i blame the defensive collapse on Shanny for not better addressing our defensive needs in the draft.

that's the only way we get better as a team.

you're welcome...and it's getting there. :elefant:

Dreadnought
08-22-2010, 05:52 PM
I've stayed out of this thread - but will emphasize - if you can't use common good manners in conducting discussions with other members posts will be deleted. If that doesn't work, then the thread will be locked, and so on

The name calling and insults in this thread and elsewhere are an embarrassment. You can have any point of view you want here. What you can't do is be rude or insulting when expressing or rebutting same.

Dreadnought
08-22-2010, 06:11 PM
Thread unlocked

rcsodak
08-22-2010, 06:48 PM
Merriman and Ware weren't considered the REACH that AYERS was. LOL. Furthermore, they also play for teams whose offense could and did score.

Bosco asked who and I replied Orakpo. You came up with the silly argument that Orakpo and his college alignment automatically ruled him out and Bosco argued Ayers was a good pick but a project. You don't draft a project at #12 when you know there is a more solid pick like Orakpo. I will grant Bosco the idea that you don't judge them after one season. However, as of now, that is all we can judge them on.

Orapko went #13....Ayers was chosen #18.

I Eat Staples
08-22-2010, 06:54 PM
Bannan, Williams, McBean, Fields, Green.

I don't think McBean and Fields are quality starters, and Green is old and Williams is coming back from injury. Williams and Green could be legit stars, especially Williams, but they're uncertain. I have yet to form an opinion on Bannan, so I won't judge him.


because you post at bronco mania or country or whatever it is called now.... Just did not expect to see you end up over here is all.

I got suspended because many Broncos fans believe you aren't a true Broncos fan unless you like McDaniels. How sad some people are.


I can't wait until the season starts, and you go back to San Diego and you're underachieving Chargers. Please pollute their message board with your football ignorance, and leave ours alone.


Overtime told him about it on the Chargers message board.


True fans support their team even if they hate the coach, management, etc. If you lack the ability to form your own opinion on a coach or player rather than blindly agreeing with everything the team does, then you shouldn't be watching sports. Do you think every die-hard Lions fan was agreeing with the direction of their team the past decade? Disagreeing with a team's decisions or direction doesn't make you less of a fan, it means you have your own opinion. Supporting my team despite thinking the coach sucks, makes me a more loyal fan than someone who uses ignorance and blind homerism to remain a fan.

jhildebrand
08-22-2010, 07:00 PM
Orapko went #13....Ayers was chosen #18.

And we didn't have the 12th pick? :confused:

rcsodak
08-22-2010, 07:29 PM
Where are the Broncos going to get a pass rush from? Moss showed a little. In order to win this year, either by talent or scheme pass rush pressure must be dramatically increased.

2009 Doom
wk1-2tackles/1sack
wk2-1tackles
wk3-2tackles
wk4-DNP (Moss/Ayers 1sack ea)

Going by last year's preseason, one sure couldn't say they saw Doom's leading the league in sacks.

The D also couldn't seem to stop the opposing QB's last year in preseason. But they seemed to do ok during the regular season.

Bosco
08-22-2010, 08:05 PM
I don't think McBean and Fields are quality starters, and Green is old and Williams is coming back from injury. Williams and Green could be legit stars, especially Williams, but they're uncertain. I have yet to form an opinion on Bannan, so I won't judge him. McBean and Fields both provided solid play last year. They're not elite players, but they're perfectly good starters who you can trot out without much worry until you have the luxury of replacing them with someone better. We effectively did that with Fields (Jamal Williams) while McBean will rotate with Green as he continues to develop.

And Bannan is a very good player. He doesn't get a lot of pub, but he can tie up blockers as good or better than most 3-4 NTs.

I Eat Staples
08-22-2010, 08:31 PM
McBean and Fields both provided solid play last year. They're not elite players, but they're perfectly good starters who you can trot out without much worry until you have the luxury of replacing them with someone better. We effectively did that with Fields (Jamal Williams) while McBean will rotate with Green as he continues to develop.

That's pretty much how I feel about McBean and Fields too, and that doesn't make me too happy when our line consists of players that are waiting to be replaced by better players. I think they would be decent backups/rotational players, but I wouldn't mind seeing some more upgrades on the line.

The McBean/Green rotation worries me a little. Green is old and said himself that he's not a starter, so we virtually have two decent backups filling a starting spot.


And Bannan is a very good player. He doesn't get a lot of pub, but he can tie up blockers as good or better than most 3-4 NTs.

I definitely liked what I saw from Bannan in highlight videos, as well as what I've heard. I haven't yet had the opportunity to watch him play a full game though, so I'm holding off most judgments on him. Will he be a starter at LE, or backup Williams at NT?

GGMoogly
08-22-2010, 08:40 PM
...Will he be a starter at LE, or backup Williams at NT?

Depth chart says Bannan is the starter at RDE.

I Eat Staples
08-22-2010, 08:46 PM
Depth chart says Bannan is the starter at RDE.

Oh, that's odd because I thought Green or McBean would play RE with Bannan playing LE. But ok, it doesn't make any difference, I just want him to start at DE.

Bosco
08-22-2010, 10:52 PM
That's pretty much how I feel about McBean and Fields too, and that doesn't make me too happy when our line consists of players that are waiting to be replaced by better players. I think they would be decent backups/rotational players, but I wouldn't mind seeing some more upgrades on the line. Unfortunately we can't have elite level players at every position. Sometimes you have to make do with "just good" starters and with a 3-4, you really only need a single stud on the line. That's Williams, and Bannan isn't far behind. Ron Fields has now been reduced to a rotational role that will keep him fresh, although it wouldn't surprise me to see Baker taking snaps from him in that role as the season goes on.


The McBean/Green rotation worries me a little. Green is old and said himself that he's not a starter, so we virtually have two decent backups filling a starting spot. McBean is still young (25 or 26 IIRC) and was solid is his first year of game action. He's only going to get better. Green is an OK starter, but he works best as a situation pass rusher coming in off the edge or even at NT. He's been extremely effective in that role for the Pats.

To get an idea of what his role in this defense will be, figure him as a younger and generally more productive Vonnie Holliday from 2009.

TXBRONC
08-22-2010, 11:26 PM
Actually if we do not pull it together we are going to look like the Jaguars, and we do not want that. With that being said, we still need a leader at the QB position. Say what you want, we still need a leader.

No. Orton isn't the greatest quarterback to ever dawn a Denver Bronco uniform but he the at quarterback. You would know this if you had been here last year.

Lonestar
08-23-2010, 12:51 AM
Unfortunately we can't have elite level players at every position. Sometimes you have to make do with "just good" starters and with a 3-4, you really only need a single stud on the line. That's Williams, and Bannan isn't far behind. Ron Fields has now been reduced to a rotational role that will keep him fresh, although it wouldn't surprise me to see Baker taking snaps from him in that role as the season goes on.

McBean is still young (25 or 26 IIRC) and was solid is his first year of game action. He's only going to get better. Green is an OK starter, but he works best as a situation pass rusher coming in off the edge or even at NT. He's been extremely effective in that role for the Pats.

To get an idea of what his role in this defense will be, figure him as a younger and generally more productive Vonnie Holliday from 2009.

IMO fields is not a NT just does not have the strength or bulk to do the job not many 310-315 NT in the league.

I also suspect that Baker maybe the one to replace Williams when it is time to hang them up.

Magnificent Seven
08-23-2010, 01:08 AM
They should use 3-4 defense all the time. Last year, it worked.

Italianmobstr7
08-23-2010, 01:23 AM
They should use 3-4 defense all the time. Last year, it worked.

Last year it worked for some games. Definitely crumbled the last couple of weeks.

Italianmobstr7
08-23-2010, 01:32 AM
I don't think McBean and Fields are quality starters, and Green is old and Williams is coming back from injury. Williams and Green could be legit stars, especially Williams, but they're uncertain. I have yet to form an opinion on Bannan, so I won't judge him.



I got suspended because many Broncos fans believe you aren't a true Broncos fan unless you like McDaniels. How sad some people are.






True fans support their team even if they hate the coach, management, etc. If you lack the ability to form your own opinion on a coach or player rather than blindly agreeing with everything the team does, then you shouldn't be watching sports. Do you think every die-hard Lions fan was agreeing with the direction of their team the past decade? Disagreeing with a team's decisions or direction doesn't make you less of a fan, it means you have your own opinion. Supporting my team despite thinking the coach sucks, makes me a more loyal fan than someone who uses ignorance and blind homerism to remain a fan.

I disagree sir. That doesn't make you a "more loyal fan." It just makes you a fan who doesn't support the head coach, which is fine. I support the Broncos pretty much no matter what. I haven't missed a single play of Broncos football since I was 5. I'm 23 now. I've had a job every day since I hit 16, and have let all of my managers know that I won't be working on a day that Denver plays, and if that's a problem then I won't be working there at all. I literally save up all of my vacation every year until football season just so I can use them on every day that Denver plays and also take 1 trip up to Denver to watch them in person. Just because I support the coach, and the decisions the organization has made, even if they're unpopular doesn't make me less of a fan than you. I'm an optimistic person in general, but probably even more so when it comes to the Broncos. I can be a realist and have an opinion, but I still support our head coach, our owner and ANY player who plays for the Broncos as long as they're a Bronco. If you still think you're more loyal than me because of my "blind homerism" then I've got news for you. You're wrong. I can form an opinion, but just because it isn't the same as your opinion doesn't make it mean any less. Same goes for you. If people don't agree with your opinion, it doesn't mean anything.

There's always idiots on EVERY fan base whether it be Broncos, Chiefs, Raiders, Cowboys, Vikings whoever. Some people are blind homers and the organization can do no wrong. Some people don't like anything the organization does. I know 1 thing, winning unites ALL fans of an organization. I bet you if Denver wins 11 games this season and wins a playoff game or 2 your tune will change and you'll start believe in McD. Not saying Denver will win 11 games or a playoff game, but IF that does happen, you'll become a more optimistic fan yourself.

TXBRONC
08-23-2010, 05:58 AM
They should use 3-4 defense all the time. Last year, it worked.

We didn't stay in the 3-4 for defensive play it would change depending on down and distance. I would guess they'll do the same this year as well.

arapaho2
08-23-2010, 10:44 AM
LOL You don't? The god forsaken defense in the second half of the season wasn't enough of a tell tale sign for you? We lost half of those games in the second half of the season because of our god forsaken defense.

really ? like the sandiego game where the offense turned the ball over three times in the first half....scored zero points....had five drives amount to 94 total yards including 50 yards passing.....all defense right?

how about the colts game where the defense did yeild 14 1st qrt points...after we moronically won the toss and gave the ball to manning, yet the offense failed to keep drives going, including a 3 n out...and two failed 4th and one conversions...never mind the defense held manning scoreless for nearly a entire half of football and picked him off three times, while the offense sputtered...all defense right?

or the oakland game where our highly efficient offense could only manage 2 fgs in the entire first half..all defense right?



259. That's how many yards one of Denver Broncos opponents had in 1 game....by 1 player!! Thanks for nothing Mike Nolan!

wasnt that after mcd ordered him to tone it down?..but tell me what did the offense do to help a struggling tired defense?...nothing right? of yeah...two ints for tds really let them rest didnt it:lol:




Right, him blowing the last half of the season for us with his terrible run adjustments did wonders.

other then two games where the offense was totaly ineffective..the last oak and chiefs games..the defense was solid in rush d...including holding charles to 56 total rush yards in the first meeting , 94 total rushing...colts 92 rushing....eagles 105 rushing




Yet you neglect the fact that the D progressively got worse as the season went on, which watched that #1 ranked defense plummet down to #7 in only 10 games. But way to completely "neglect" that one!


wow a six game drop in total defensive rankings was the reason our season tanked...not often you hear a silly excuse of.."our 7th ranked defense was the reason we failed":lol::lol: and not our 20th place ranking in scoreing offense, or the fact we gor worse in nearly every single offensive stat including, redzone%, 3rd down%, from the previous year

jhildebrand
08-23-2010, 10:48 AM
wow a six game drop in total defensive rankings was the reason our season tanked...not often you hear a silly excuse of.."our 7th ranked defense was the reason we failed":lol::lol: and not our 20th place ranking in scoreing offense, or the fact we gor worse in nearly every single offensive stat including, redzone%, 3rd down%, from the previous year

I already mentioned the defense improved year over year in every category while the offense declined in every. It didn't really translate. :lol: It might be easier to post the actual numbers :laugh:

rcsodak
08-23-2010, 11:17 AM
And we didn't have the 12th pick? :confused:
and they needed a rb and got one. Evidently the football coaches and scouts felthat was too high for the LB's that were available. Not to mention, NEW scouts/coaches, with a small window for scouting. Other than phonz, I'd say not bad when you look at the history of past coaches.
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arapaho2
08-23-2010, 11:18 AM
I already mentioned the defense improved year over year in every category while the offense declined in every. It didn't really translate. :lol: It might be easier to post the actual numbers :laugh:


i think silk is trying to pull a ROD...useing only a few games to justify a season....i really dont care if the defense was the 27th ranked d in the last two games....hey if we only played two games all year that would work, but alas we play 16...and in 16 games we went from 29th total d to 7th, where the offense got worse...and if he cannot see the true issue...nobody can help him understand

arapaho2
08-23-2010, 11:19 AM
and they needed a rb and got one. Evidently the football coaches and scouts felthat was too high for the LB's that were available. Not to mention, NEW scouts/coaches, with a small window for scouting. Other than phonz, I'd say not bad when you look at the history of past coaches.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums


needing a rb was debatable considering the defensive rankings the previous year

Ravage!!!
08-23-2010, 11:41 AM
needing a rb was debatable considering the defensive rankings the previous year

and an offense that primarily runs out of shotgun....

arapaho2
08-23-2010, 12:11 PM
and an offense that primarily runs out of shotgun....


also true

jhildebrand
08-23-2010, 12:20 PM
and they needed a rb and got one. Evidently the football coaches and scouts felthat was too high for the LB's that were available. Not to mention, NEW scouts/coaches, with a small window for scouting. Other than phonz, I'd say not bad when you look at the history of past coaches.


Saying they "needed" a RB is debatable. However, with the injury to Hillis, I could buy that. However, not too many teams prefer to spend a #12 on RB's any more especially in a draft where guy's like Shonn Greene go in the 3rd! I am not saying it doesnt happen, though.

Maybe if 12 was too high for Orakpo and especially Ayers than 18 doesn't make too much sense IMO either. Some say Ayers was a project. A project at 18? Why draft a project at 18 let alone one who played DE in a 4-3 at TN?

dogfish
08-23-2010, 02:32 PM
needing a rb was debatable considering the defensive rankings the previous year

uh, needing a RB is never debatable when you put seven of them on IR the year before, and the only one that was worth a damn to begin with is a converted fullback. . .

we were working with the likes of tatum bell, mike pittman and selvin young. . . we DESPERATELY needed a running back! having needs on defense as well did nothing to change that fact. . .

Elevation inc
08-23-2010, 02:42 PM
uh, needing a RB is never debatable when you put seven of them on IR the year before, and the only one that was worth a damn to begin with is a converted fullback. . .

we were working with the likes of tatum bell, mike pittman and selvin young. . . we DESPERATELY needed a running back! having needs on defense as well did nothing to change that fact. . .

true dat although to be fair i would not be upset at all if tatum was in denver again right now.....seeing him show up against san diego when the rest of the team didnt was awsome........he still had those wheels to....

Dreadnought
08-23-2010, 02:44 PM
uh, needing a RB is never debatable when you put seven of them on IR the year before, and the only one that was worth a damn to begin with is a converted fullback. . .

we were working with the likes of tatum bell, mike pittman and selvin young. . . we DESPERATELY needed a running back! having needs on defense as well did nothing to change that fact. . .

I'll only differ in that I still kind of liked Tatum and Selvin Young. Not Pro Bowl caliber, but servicable and certainly both loads better than Lamont Jordan or JJ Arrington. Good enough to make it not at all a desperate need on par with our awful defense. Is Moreno even an upgrade on these two? I'm not convinced of it myself. I think it ought to be a chiseled in stone law that RB's are never ever worth a First round pick, so I'll admit thats my own prejudices at work .

Pittman? A complete chump, I agree.

Elevation inc
08-23-2010, 02:47 PM
I'll only differ in that I still kind of liked Tatum and Selvin Young. Not Pro Bowl caliber, but servicable and certainly both loads better than Lamont Jordan or JJ Arrington. Good enough to make it not at all a desperate need on par with our awful defense. Is Moreno even an upgrade on these two? I'm not convinced of it myself. I think it ought to be a chiseled in stone law that RB's are never ever worth a First round pick, so I'll admit thats my own prejudices at work .

Pittman? A complete chump, I agree.

moreno is a tougher runner than tatum and a good back, but even i agree tatum has/had special NFL speed at the Rb position.....wish it would have worked out for him......i cant stand selvin young at all....dude was cocky, more injury prone than any back we had.....and really wasnt a good RB....he was okay outside but i wasnt impressed at all.....him/hall/boyd/pittman/ YUCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Bosco
08-23-2010, 02:48 PM
I'll only differ in that I still kind of liked Tatum and Selvin Young. Except that Selvin Young couldn't pass a physical and Tatum was a poor pass blocker and receiver out of the backfield.

Elevation inc
08-23-2010, 02:50 PM
Except that Selvin Young couldn't pass a physical and Tatum was a poor pass blocker and receiver out of the backfield.

pretty sure thats why we let tatum go(bad scheme fit).....but i wish MCD would have given him a shot anyways..Tatum could have broke at least a run or 2 last year......dont blame MCD for not doing it though.....

arapaho2
08-23-2010, 02:53 PM
uh, needing a RB is never debatable when you put seven of them on IR the year before, and the only one that was worth a damn to begin with is a converted fullback. . .

we were working with the likes of tatum bell, mike pittman and selvin young. . . we DESPERATELY needed a running back! having needs on defense as well did nothing to change that fact. . .

no...despite that we did have numerous injuries

in 08 useing 7 total starting backs ..we finished with 1862 yards
in 09 with a unneeded 1st round back..we finished with 1836 yards

our run game faced injuries but it was far from a neccesity to use the 12th overall pick for one...specially when we needed DT/NT in the worst way,also given the fact there were many late round backs for the taking all over the board

specificaly
we were the
12th ranked rushing offense
and the 27th ranked rush defense...

Bosco
08-23-2010, 02:54 PM
I'm actually more surprised that someone else hadn't stepped up and given Tatum a job. I thought he showed alot of heart down the stretch in 2008.

dogfish
08-23-2010, 02:54 PM
I'll only differ in that I still kind of liked Tatum and Selvin Young. Not Pro Bowl caliber, but servicable and certainly both loads better than Lamont Jordan or JJ Arrington. Good enough to make it not at all a desperate need on par with our awful defense. Is Moreno even an upgrade on these two? I'm not convinced of it myself. I think it ought to be a chiseled in stone law that RB's are never ever worth a First round pick, so I'll admit thats my own prejudices at work .

Pittman? A complete chump, I agree.

sorry dread, those guys sucked-- there's a reason none of 'em are in the NFL anymore, and it's not because they're good football players. . . "serviceable" is the highest possible compliment any of those guys could merit, and that's pushing the limits. . . there's plenty of room to be better than lamont jordan and still not be any good. . .

i know you don't like spending picks on RBs, but most of the best ones were first rounders. . . chris johnson, adrian peterson, steven jackson, deangelo williams. . . and ray rice and mojo drew were seconds. . . it's like an position-- you want an impact player, you typically have to pay for them. . . i'd kill to have any of those guys, as they'd make our team significantly better. . .

if you're willing to have the equivalent of marquand manuel and calvin lowery at RB that's fine, but don't expect any coach to ever agree with you. . . :D

Dreadnought
08-23-2010, 02:54 PM
moreno is a tougher runner than tatum and a good back, but even i agree tatum has/had special NFL speed at the Rb position.....wish it would have worked out for him......i cant stand selvin young at all....dude was cocky, more injury prone than any back we had.....and really wasnt a good RB....he was okay outside but i wasnt impressed at all.....him/hall/boyd/pittman/ YUCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Don't forget - Tatum planted that loudmouth Ray Lewis flat on his ass back in '06 I think it was, on a 3rd and 9 draw play on a Monday night. It was a joyful thing. I keep hearing how much tougher Moreno is, but haven't seen any such evidence as of yet

Bosco
08-23-2010, 02:56 PM
specially when we needed DT/NT in the worst way And the only elite prospect in the draft (Raji) we tried to trade up for.

dogfish
08-23-2010, 03:00 PM
no...despite that we did have numerous injuries

in 08 useing 7 total starting backs ..we finished with 1862 yards
in 09 with a unneeded 1st round back..we finished with 1836 yards

our run game faced injuries but it was far from a neccesity to use the 12th overall pick for one...specially when we needed DT/NT in the worst way,also given the fact there were many late round backs for the taking all over the board

specificaly
we were the
12th ranked rushing offense
and the 27th ranked rush defense...

well what did you want them to do, draft ron brace at #12?


:spit: :rofl:

Northman
08-23-2010, 03:02 PM
Don't forget - Tatum planted that loudmouth Ray Lewis flat on his ass back in '06 I think it was, on a 3rd and 9 draw play on a Monday night. It was a joyful thing. I keep hearing how much tougher Moreno is, but haven't seen any such evidence as of yet

Well, not entirely true. He didnt plant Ray on his ass but he did take him for a 5 yd ride on his back. :lol:

Elevation inc
08-23-2010, 03:05 PM
no...despite that we did have numerous injuries

in 08 useing 7 total starting backs ..we finished with 1862 yards
in 09 with a unneeded 1st round back..we finished with 1836 yards

our run game faced injuries but it was far from a neccesity to use the 12th overall pick for one...specially when we needed DT/NT in the worst way,also given the fact there were many late round backs for the taking all over the board

specificaly
we were the
12th ranked rushing offense
and the 27th ranked rush defense...


the only one there was raji at 9, who we tried to trade up for and were denied by GB.....guess MCD should have just kidnapped there GM so they couldnt take raji......:lol:

we also looked at orakpo but felt he was not a good fit for the 3-4, which i highly agree with.......

simply put we were in a bind at 12.....

arapaho2
08-23-2010, 03:16 PM
And the only elite prospect in the draft (Raji) we tried to trade up for.


if we wanted to we could have easily traded up for raji...he was picked 9th overall...if we wasted a future 14th overall pick for smith your telling me we could not have pacakged the 12 and the 09 1st to move up and get raji and a pick or player

we didnt try and move up at all

or for that matter moved down and filled several needs

weazel
08-23-2010, 03:21 PM
I'm actually more surprised that someone else hadn't stepped up and given Tatum a job. I thought he showed alot of heart down the stretch in 2008.

I think the Hilton offered him a job after hearing how fast he could grab peoples luggage!

Elevation inc
08-23-2010, 03:21 PM
if we wanted to we could have easily traded up for raji...he was picked 9th overall...if we wasted a future 14th overall pick for smith your telling me we could not have pacakged the 12 and the 09 1st to move up and get raji and a pick or player

we didnt try and move up at all

REALLY?


MCD to GB...WHAT will it take to trade up for raji?

GB....THE FARM!!!!!

MCD....oh crap....N/m then

GB....he is our guy and we aint moving!!!!


pretty sure it went down something like this since post draft comments about raji by GB went as follows..." we took quite a few calls on raji, but nothing was ever gonna happen since he was our guy the whole time"....."we knew who we wanted at 9 and we got him"


the issue isnt whether we could have traded up rap.....the issue is if GB was willing to not get raji, and they werent....so you blame that on MCD????? really????

weazel
08-23-2010, 03:25 PM
if we wanted to we could have easily traded up for raji...he was picked 9th overall...if we wasted a future 14th overall pick for smith your telling me we could not have pacakged the 12 and the 09 1st to move up and get raji and a pick or player

we didnt try and move up at all

or for that matter moved down and filled several needs

the all-knowing :rolleyes:

Elevation inc
08-23-2010, 03:26 PM
if we wanted to we could have easily traded up for raji...he was picked 9th overall...if we wasted a future 14th overall pick for smith your telling me we could not have pacakged the 12 and the 09 1st to move up and get raji and a pick or player

we didnt try and move up at all

or for that matter moved down and filled several needs

also in post draft comments by MCD he did say the they inquired about moving up and back, but no good deals came to the table......

arapaho2
08-23-2010, 03:30 PM
REALLY?


MCD to GB...WHAT will it take to trade up for raji?

GB....THE FARM!!!!!

MCD....oh crap....N/m then

GB....he is our guy and we aint moving!!!!


pretty sure it went down something like this since post draft comments about raji by GB went as follows..." we took quite a few calls on raji, but nothing was ever gonna happen since he was our guy the whole time"....."we knew who we wanted at 9 and we got him"


the issue isnt whether we could have traded up rap.....the issue is if GB was willing to not get raji, and they werent....so you blame that on MCD????? really????

i believe there was several other teams that picked BEFORE THE PACKERS...I MIGHT BE MISTAKEN THOUGH

clevland traded the 5th overall pick for the 17th and 52nd....so i think if we had wanted him we coulda got him

Elevation inc
08-23-2010, 03:39 PM
i believe there was several other teams that picked BEFORE THE PACKERS...I MIGHT BE MISTAKEN THOUGH

clevland traded the 5th overall pick for the 17th and 52nd....so i think if we had wanted him we coulda got him


haha you should be our new GM since you think its so easy to tarde back and up at will.....never mind what the other teams want, its all about what we want period!!!!.......maybe we didnt want pick 5 we wanted pick 9.....maybe we werent willing to pay 5th overall pick money.....

arapaho2
08-23-2010, 03:46 PM
haha you should be our new GM since you think its so easy to tarde back and up at will.....never mind what the other teams want, its all about what we want period!!!!.......maybe we didnt want pick 5 we wanted pick 9.....maybe we werent willing to pay 5th overall pick money.....

all im saying is if the jets went from 17th to 5th simply by swapping picks and adding a mid 2nd rounder...

and if joshy isnt willing to pay the differance between 9th and 5th to get the man who was without a doubt the best NT/DT in the draft for a team that was ranked 30th in scoreing defense, 27th in rush defense, 26th in passing defense...then lord help us

dogfish
08-23-2010, 03:54 PM
all im saying is if the jets went from 17th to 5th simply by swapping picks and adding a mid 2nd rounder...

and if joshy isnt willing to pay the differance between 9th and 5th to get the man who was without a doubt the best NT/DT in the draft for a team that was ranked 30th in scoreing defense, 27th in rush defense, 26th in passing defense...then lord help us

yes, lord help us!

because jamal williams has never stuffed the run before. . .


:rolleyes:

I Eat Staples
08-23-2010, 03:57 PM
Unfortunately we can't have elite level players at every position. Sometimes you have to make do with "just good" starters and with a 3-4, you really only need a single stud on the line. That's Williams, and Bannan isn't far behind. Ron Fields has now been reduced to a rotational role that will keep him fresh, although it wouldn't surprise me to see Baker taking snaps from him in that role as the season goes on.

McBean is still young (25 or 26 IIRC) and was solid is his first year of game action. He's only going to get better. Green is an OK starter, but he works best as a situation pass rusher coming in off the edge or even at NT. He's been extremely effective in that role for the Pats.

To get an idea of what his role in this defense will be, figure him as a younger and generally more productive Vonnie Holliday from 2009.

I was pretty happy when we got Green, because I like his pass rushing ability (although I may be biased because I had him on my madden 08 franchise :D). It's McBean I'm not so high on just yet. If he can continue to show improvement and become a quality DE, then I'll be very happy with Green rotating in to rush the passer.


I disagree sir. That doesn't make you a "more loyal fan." It just makes you a fan who doesn't support the head coach, which is fine. I support the Broncos pretty much no matter what. I haven't missed a single play of Broncos football since I was 5. I'm 23 now. I've had a job every day since I hit 16, and have let all of my managers know that I won't be working on a day that Denver plays, and if that's a problem then I won't be working there at all. I literally save up all of my vacation every year until football season just so I can use them on every day that Denver plays and also take 1 trip up to Denver to watch them in person. Just because I support the coach, and the decisions the organization has made, even if they're unpopular doesn't make me less of a fan than you. I'm an optimistic person in general, but probably even more so when it comes to the Broncos. I can be a realist and have an opinion, but I still support our head coach, our owner and ANY player who plays for the Broncos as long as they're a Bronco. If you still think you're more loyal than me because of my "blind homerism" then I've got news for you. You're wrong. I can form an opinion, but just because it isn't the same as your opinion doesn't make it mean any less. Same goes for you. If people don't agree with your opinion, it doesn't mean anything.

There's always idiots on EVERY fan base whether it be Broncos, Chiefs, Raiders, Cowboys, Vikings whoever. Some people are blind homers and the organization can do no wrong. Some people don't like anything the organization does. I know 1 thing, winning unites ALL fans of an organization. I bet you if Denver wins 11 games this season and wins a playoff game or 2 your tune will change and you'll start believe in McD. Not saying Denver will win 11 games or a playoff game, but IF that does happen, you'll become a more optimistic fan yourself.

I'll never be an optimistic or pessimistic fan, I'll always be a realist. But if McD leads us to an 11 win season and a playoff win then I'll certainly change my opinion on him. I have no problem admitting when I'm wrong, and as a fan I'd love nothing more than for McD to prove me wrong.

Optimism (as well as pessimism, although the former is more common around here) bothers me, simply because it's like looking past reality for something more, when there's nothing there. If I change my opinion on McD if he wins games, then I won't be being optimistic, I'll still be just as much of a realist as I am now. But the reality will be that I was wrong about McD.


Don't forget - Tatum planted that loudmouth Ray Lewis flat on his ass back in '06 I think it was, on a 3rd and 9 draw play on a Monday night. It was a joyful thing. I keep hearing how much tougher Moreno is, but haven't seen any such evidence as of yet

I haven't seen any evidence of Moreno showing any level of toughness whatsoever. I was very high on Moreno entering the draft, but now I'm very low on him after his rookie season. What bothers me most is his complete lack of speed in the open field, and how quickly he wears down.

Bosco
08-23-2010, 04:31 PM
haha you should be our new GM since you think its so easy to tarde back and up at will.....never mind what the other teams want, its all about what we want period!!!!.......maybe we didnt want pick 5 we wanted pick 9.....maybe we werent willing to pay 5th overall pick money.....

Amen.


and if joshy isnt willing to pay the differance between 9th and 5th to get the man who was without a doubt the best NT/DT in the draft for a team that was ranked 30th in scoreing defense, 27th in rush defense, 26th in passing defense...then lord help us Who said he wasn't?

GEM
08-23-2010, 05:13 PM
Yawn, we already have one.

The guy you are calling our leader is a backup who won't see the field this season. We have a just fine leader at QB who the LOCKER ROOM believes in. FFS...when are you going to realize that most of us want what is best for the Broncos, not just your precious Tebow. It's beyond annoying.

TXBRONC
08-23-2010, 05:29 PM
The guy you are calling our leader is a backup who won't see the field this season. We have a just fine leader at QB who the LOCKER ROOM believes in. FFS...when are you going to realize that most of us want what is best for the Broncos, not just your precious Tebow. It's beyond annoying.

I honestly do not want to make this about another poster but this really is getting very old. Tebow knows he's not the leader of this team yet it would be a good idea if some of followers realized that as well. Tebow's time will come but it's not right now.

I Eat Staples
08-23-2010, 05:47 PM
The guy you are calling our leader is a backup who won't see the field this season. We have a just fine leader at QB who the LOCKER ROOM believes in. FFS...when are you going to realize that most of us want what is best for the Broncos, not just your precious Tebow. It's beyond annoying.


I honestly do not want to make this about another poster but this really is getting very old. Tebow knows he's not the leader of this team yet it would be a good idea if some of followers realized that as well. Tebow's time will come but it's not right now.

Honestly, Tebow fanboys/girls that make ridiculous posts like that aren't even worth a reply.

rcsodak
08-23-2010, 10:54 PM
needing a rb was debatable considering the defensive rankings the previous year

Ok, coach. Who was going to run the ball, had they not drafted Moreno?

No more shanny zone.

McD wanted a high draft pick to carry the ball.

Do you run the ball or stop the run? Who were the no-miss D linemen in the draft at #12?

rcsodak
08-23-2010, 11:03 PM
Saying they "needed" a RB is debatable. However, with the injury to Hillis, I could buy that. However, not too many teams prefer to spend a #12 on RB's any more especially in a draft where guy's like Shonn Greene go in the 3rd! I am not saying it doesnt happen, though.

Maybe if 12 was too high for Orakpo and especially Ayers than 18 doesn't make too much sense IMO either. Some say Ayers was a project. A project at 18? Why draft a project at 18 let alone one who played DE in a 4-3 at TN?

This has been debated ad naseum.

Look at the timeline, from when McD got hired, to when the draft was.

Tell me how many guys are going to get a coaching crew together...get a scouting crew together, watch tape on college players (where available), interview them, grade out the current roster, and have a draft that hits a homerun.

That's asking alot of a coach that's 'been-there-done-that'....

He looked and saw zero accountable rb's.
He saw a dilapidated defense after years of neglectful drafting/free agent signings.
Hell, he lost how much time in scouting because of his petulant QB's whining?

After all is said and done, he laid down a framework to work on. And other than Phonz, there has been some good coming from it.




Except that Selvin Young couldn't pass a physical and Tatum was a poor pass blocker and receiver out of the backfield.
....and where are they now?

Tned
08-23-2010, 11:07 PM
This has been debated ad naseum.

Look at the timeline, from when McD got hired, to when the draft was.

Tell me how many guys are going to get a coaching crew together...get a scouting crew together, watch tape on college players (where available), interview them, grade out the current roster, and have a draft that hits a homerun.

That's asking alot of a coach that's 'been-there-done-that'....

He looked and saw zero accountable rb's.
He saw a dilapidated defense after years of neglectful drafting/free agent signings.
Hell, he lost how much time in scouting because of his petulant QB's whining?

After all is said and done, he laid down a framework to work on. And other than Phonz, there has been some good coming from it.

The only fault I have with his drafting was trading a first for Smith. Even more so if as you say, he was unprepared due to time constraints, it was VERY questionable to give up a first for a small, slow CB picked in the second round.

You could argue he reached for Quinn and Brandstater, but he obviously liked the guys and he didn't break the bank moving up for them.

rcsodak
08-23-2010, 11:09 PM
no...despite that we did have numerous injuries

in 08 useing 7 total starting backs ..we finished with 1862 yards
in 09 with a unneeded 1st round back..we finished with 1836 yards

our run game faced injuries but it was far from a neccesity to use the 12th overall pick for one...specially when we needed DT/NT in the worst way,also given the fact there were many late round backs for the taking all over the board

specificaly
we were the
12th ranked rushing offense
and the 27th ranked rush defense...

But rap, the GREAT NOLAN said Field was the answer to their NT question!!!! They didn't NEED to draft one.

Tned
08-23-2010, 11:14 PM
But rap, the GREAT NOLAN said Field was the answer to their NT question!!!! They didn't NEED to draft one.

Can you provide a link to the quote where Nolan said that? Considering Fields was a backup for Nolan in SF, I really doubt your statement is accurate.

rcsodak
08-23-2010, 11:21 PM
I haven't seen any evidence of Moreno showing any level of toughness whatsoever. I was very high on Moreno entering the draft, but now I'm very low on him after his rookie season. What bothers me most is his complete lack of speed in the open field, and how quickly he wears down.

I believe it's called "hitting the rookie wall". And Moreno isn't the only rookie to have it happen to.

They're not used to the rigors of the NFL. They just got done playing 12+ games in college....attending classes....finals....tryouts....pro days....et al.
It's almost a year long struggle. Then, after the draft, they have to attend rookie symposium....rookie OTA's....full team OTA's....weight rooms....learning the exhaustive play book.....training camp.....preseason.....then the real deal. All this while PRAYING their agent gets their initial contract done before TC starts so they don't lag behind....and NOT getting injured.

I'd like some of the rookie bashers *nobody in particular, of course* to try it sometime. I'd pay money to watch from the bleachers. :coffee:

rcsodak
08-23-2010, 11:25 PM
Can you provide a link to the quote where Nolan said that? Considering Fields was a backup for Nolan in SF, I really doubt your statement is accurate.

Stalker

Tned
08-23-2010, 11:32 PM
Stalker

I'm not familiar with that publication. Can you provide a link? :confused:

rcsodak
08-23-2010, 11:41 PM
Can you provide a link to the quote where Nolan said that? Considering Fields was a backup for Nolan in SF, I really doubt your statement is accurate.

Ok, you got me.

Nolan tried to talk McD OUT of picking him up, because he was only a backup NT for him at SF.

:rolleyes:

Tned
08-23-2010, 11:53 PM
Ok, you got me.

Nolan tried to talk McD OUT of picking him up, because he was only a backup NT for him at SF.

:rolleyes:

I'm afraid that isn't your best shade of sarcasm...

Bosco
08-24-2010, 02:09 AM
The only fault I have with his drafting was trading a first for Smith. Even more so if as you say, he was unprepared due to time constraints, it was VERY questionable to give up a first for a small, slow CB picked in the second round.

First off, Smith isn't that small, and he's not slow either.

Secondly, while I can understand your gripe after drafting Smith, you have to consider that they wanted to get an elite young talent to start grooming behind Bailey and Goodman, and Smith was arguably better than any CB prospect from this year not named Joe Haden.

Bosco
08-24-2010, 02:10 AM
Can you provide a link to the quote where Nolan said that? Considering Fields was a backup for Nolan in SF, I really doubt your statement is accurate.

I think it was more a case of Fields being the best NT available in a very weak free agent class.

Tned
08-24-2010, 06:58 AM
First off, Smith isn't that small, and he's not slow either.

Secondly, while I can understand your gripe after drafting Smith, you have to consider that they wanted to get an elite young talent to start grooming behind Bailey and Goodman, and Smith was arguably better than any CB prospect from this year not named Joe Haden.

Time will tell about you conclusion about Smith's skill and the CB's taken this year. That certainly wasn't the opinion of the talking heads right after McDaniels made the trade, and last years performance appears to be proving the talking heads and scouts right over the McDaniels and company.

The scouting reports out there for the public talked about his lack of size being a problem in the NFL and him projecting as either a slot receiver or zone type DB. Certainly not a Bailey replacement. Burning a first on a DB 'possibly' capable of being a nickel back, when this year was considered a deep DB class was questionable at best.


I think it was more a case of Fields being the best NT available in a very weak free agent class.

I have no problems with Fields, he did an decent job. My question about a link was in response to RC mocking another poster by slamming Nolan and claiming he claimed Fields was "the answer" at NT and insinuated that Nolan told McD that there was no need to draft an NT, or something like that.

Elevation inc
08-24-2010, 07:23 AM
Time will tell about you conclusion about Smith's skill and the CB's taken this year. That certainly wasn't the opinion of the talking heads right after McDaniels made the trade, and last years performance appears to be proving the talking heads and scouts right over the McDaniels and company.

The scouting reports out there for the public talked about his lack of size being a problem in the NFL and him projecting as either a slot receiver or zone type DB. Certainly not a Bailey replacement. Burning a first on a DB 'possibly' capable of being a nickel back, when this year was considered a deep DB class was questionable at best.



I have no problems with Fields, he did an decent job. My question about a link was in response to RC mocking another poster by slamming Nolan and claiming he claimed Fields was "the answer" at NT and insinuated that Nolan told McD that there was no need to draft an NT, or something like that.



its funny the talking heads felt that nickel or zone DB was a good fit for him...he was horrible at wakeforest in zone coverage and we have seen that here in denver as well......smith is actually a very good outside man corner, thats his bread and butter.

he still has a year before the official bust tag of 3 years hits....so who knows....maybe the lights will come on once he checks his attitude a bit....

sad:tsk:

Tned
08-24-2010, 07:32 AM
its funny the talking heads felt that nickel or zone DB was a good fit for him...he was horrible at wakeforest in zone coverage and we have seen that here in denver as well......smith is actually a very good outside man corner, thats his bread and butter.

he still has a year before the official bust tag of 3 years hits....so who knows....maybe the lights will come on once he checks his attitude a bit....

sad:tsk:

From what I read/remember, the reason they felt he translated into a slot/zone type receiver was because he was too small and not physical enough to play outside in the NFL. Same way you might have a small DE that is dominant in college, but they say he projects as an OLB in the NFL, because of his size.

There are examples of small, slower CBs being dominant in the NFL, but it is certainly the exception, not the rule.

Also, I don't think there would have been much criticism of the pick if he was taken with a 2nd round pick in the 2nd, but trading a first for him seemed like a reach to most.

Hopefully, Smith turns out to be one of these exceptions and we start to see that first round, ball-hawking talent we hard about.

arapaho2
08-24-2010, 10:06 AM
yes, lord help us!

because jamal williams has never stuffed the run before. . .


:rolleyes:


i didnt know jamall williams was on the team in april 2009...good thing your here to tell us he was

arapaho2
08-24-2010, 10:14 AM
Ok, coach. Who was going to run the ball, had they not drafted Moreno?

No more shanny zone.

McD wanted a high draft pick to carry the ball.

Do you run the ball or stop the run? Who were the no-miss D linemen in the draft at #12?


hillis for one...or any of the other solid backs in the draft that were taken later...D.Brown...Lesean Mcoy....beenie wells....shonn green


raji...orakpo...or trade down with the patented draft genious ability that thrilled you all this year...was some solid lbrs ..like mattews, cushing, available

LRtagger
08-24-2010, 10:41 AM
Wow 10 pages of bitching and pissing matches over two preseason games where half our defensive starters are out and we are only rushing 4 guys (sometimes 3) on every play.

Welcome to www.overreactionforums.com

weazel
08-24-2010, 10:41 AM
The only fault I have with his drafting was trading a first for Smith. Even more so if as you say, he was unprepared due to time constraints, it was VERY questionable to give up a first for a small, slow CB picked in the second round.

You could argue he reached for Quinn and Brandstater, but he obviously liked the guys and he didn't break the bank moving up for them.

I totally agree with this...

and with the season of experience, he had a much better draft this year

Tned
08-24-2010, 10:45 AM
I totally agree with this...

and with the season of experience, he had a much better draft this year

And, considering the holes that had to be filled on defense, I thought it was hard to argue with most of his FA pickups.

Ravage!!!
08-24-2010, 11:03 AM
I think he moved up too far for Quinn as well, and I personally didn't like taking a RB with the 12th pick. I don't dislike Moreno, but especially in a system that mainly plays from shotgun, and isn't really a running system, using a 12th pick on a RB absolute makes no sense to me....especially the defensive needs (tying into the original topic of discussion in this thread).

Its only been two drafts. Hard to say much as far as good or bad (other than ALphonso)... but we do see a pattern of spending picks to move up.

Bosco
08-24-2010, 11:06 AM
Time will tell about you conclusion about Smith's skill and the CB's taken this year. That certainly wasn't the opinion of the talking heads right after McDaniels made the trade, and last years performance appears to be proving the talking heads and scouts right over the McDaniels and company.

The scouting reports out there for the public talked about his lack of size being a problem in the NFL and him projecting as either a slot receiver or zone type DB. Certainly not a Bailey replacement. Burning a first on a DB 'possibly' capable of being a nickel back, when this year was considered a deep DB class was questionable at best. Mike Mayock is the only talking head that matters much these days, and he spoke pretty highly of Alphonso Smith. Likewise, Alphonso graded out favorably to any of the corners in this year's draft.


I have no problems with Fields, he did an decent job. My question about a link was in response to RC mocking another poster by slamming Nolan and claiming he claimed Fields was "the answer" at NT and insinuated that Nolan told McD that there was no need to draft an NT, or something like that. I have no idea if that claim is true or not. I know that outside of Ron Brace (who was massively overpicked) there wasn't much in the way of NT talent in the draft.

arapaho2
08-24-2010, 11:43 AM
I think he moved up too far for Quinn as well, and I personally didn't like taking a RB with the 12th pick. I don't dislike Moreno, but especially in a system that mainly plays from shotgun, and isn't really a running system, using a 12th pick on a RB absolute makes no sense to me....especially the defensive needs (tying into the original topic of discussion in this thread).

Its only been two drafts. Hard to say much as far as good or bad (other than ALphonso)... but we do see a pattern of spending picks to move up.


THATS WHAT I MEAN..thank you....although depending on how you look at it rb may have been a need, but not a huge glaring need, like what we saw on the 29th ranked defense
a serviceable rb could have been gotten later

I Eat Staples
08-24-2010, 01:54 PM
I believe it's called "hitting the rookie wall". And Moreno isn't the only rookie to have it happen to.

They're not used to the rigors of the NFL. They just got done playing 12+ games in college....attending classes....finals....tryouts....pro days....et al.
It's almost a year long struggle. Then, after the draft, they have to attend rookie symposium....rookie OTA's....full team OTA's....weight rooms....learning the exhaustive play book.....training camp.....preseason.....then the real deal. All this while PRAYING their agent gets their initial contract done before TC starts so they don't lag behind....and NOT getting injured.

I'd like some of the rookie bashers *nobody in particular, of course* to try it sometime. I'd pay money to watch from the bleachers. :coffee:

I get the rookie wall thing, but most HBs drafted in the top 12 look a lot better in their rookie year than Moreno did. Moreno has not proven to be an every down back. If you're a top 12 pick and not an every down back, you are a bust. His longest rush, according to NFL.com, was 36 yards. And I believe he only had one rush over 25 yards, or something like that. That's horrible.


I totally agree with this...

and with the season of experience, he had a much better draft this year

I would have given our draft an A+ had we not drafted Tebow, but that really ruined it for me. I loved our picks in the middle rounds, but we gave up way too much for a project player at a position we didn't need, while there were at least 2 better players available at that same position. And I would have picked Dez over DT.