Orton shines brightest, Tebow also makes plays in Broncos' 33-24 loss to Bengals

[Denver Native (Carol)]

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_15789686

CINCINNATI — Put in Orton!

Perhaps, the NFL's only starting quarterback who is less recognized than not one, but both of his backups, Kyle Orton may have earned himself some love.

For all the foes Orton has accumulated in his six seasons as an NFL quarterback, the prominent additions of the well-known Tim Tebow and Brady Quinn will not be among them.

Throwing the ball downfield like he rarely did last season, Orton in a poised, efficient performance passed for two early touchdowns Sunday night in the Broncos' preseason opener against the Cincinnati Bengals.

Although the Bengals won in the end, 33-24, Orton and the Broncos' first stringers went up 14-0 against Cincinnati's starters when they matched up against each other through all but the final minute of the first quarter.

After the Bengals roughed up Quinn and the Broncos' second-string defense through the middle portion of the game, Tebow made his professional debut late in the third quarter.

The rookie with the supposed mechanical throwing flaw instead showed flashes of Heisman Trophy form.

On his first play, Tebow executed a play-action, rollout pass to H-back Marquez Branson for a 5-yard gain. On his last play, Tebow barreled into the end zone for a 7-yard touchdown run.

In between, Tebow threw a perfect 35-yard missile down the right sideline that was dropped by receiver Matthew Willis, and a few of his patented, make-something-out-of-nothing plays.

All in all, Tebow played well enough for people to think Broncos coach Josh McDaniels is on to something.

For the present, though, there is no quarterback controversy. Maybe at No. 2, where Quinn will have to show improvement to hold off Tebow.

But unlike this time last season, when Orton's first preseason game in a Broncos uniform featured a forgettable three interceptions on his first three possessions, there should not be even a whisper of No. 1 quarterback question in Denver.

Orton has said since the Broncos used a first-round pick to draft Tebow in April that he wasn't going to let the prized newcomer bother him, was still going to be the starting quarterback, and was going to have the best season of his career.

Stated confidence was back with performance here against the Bengals as Orton led the Broncos to two scoring drives that were capped with touchdown passes of 12 yards to Eddie Royal and 6 yards to Brandon Lloyd.

Aside from the touchdowns, Orton's most encouraging pass was his first.

Working off play action, Orton dropped back with plenty of protection and drilled a 31-yard completion down the left seam to Jabar Gaffney.

It's the kind of deep intermediate completion that was so lacking from the Broncos' offense last year. Of Orton's 336 completions last year, 266 were thrown no further than 10 yards past the line of scrimmage, or 79.2 percent.

He completed only 18 passes from 20 to 40 yards, or 5.4 percent. Yet, right away in the 2010 preseason, Orton was 1 for 1 on the deep middle pass.

After the game, the largest media throng surrounded Tebow, who displayed accuracy and uncommon poise for a quarterback playing in his first professional game.

Orton has been through it every day since April. He showed through his play here Sunday that he can handle it.

[Northman]

Tebow definitely made me a believer tonight.

[PAINTERDAVE]

Thanks for the article...

[silkamilkamonico]

Does Orton throw more mid range balls this year? He had some damn good throws tonight, especially considering how piss poor the running game was.

[SOCALORADO.]

Tebow 2nd stringer now. No way in hell MCD lets his prized possesion sit behind Quinn now.
By the end of the preseason games, Tebow will be pushing Orton, it just wont ever be discussed openly by MCD or the FO. But we will all know the score between Orton and Tebow.

[Davii]

Orton played great tonight. Granted it was only three posessions, but I think he's going to have the best year of his career this year. Once Clady is back and our running corps is healthy, watch out.

Quinn played quite poorly, but he was pressured nearly every play. Our first teams well, past that we have a lot of work to do.

Tebow played well enough, I think, that he will surpass Quinn on the depth chart very shortly.

[Northman]

Tebow 2nd stringer now. No way in hell MCD lets his prized possesion sit behind Quinn now.
By the end of the preseason games, Tebow will be pushing Orton, it just wont ever be discussed openly by MCD or the FO. But we will all know the score between Orton and Tebow.

Doubt that Tebow would surplant Orton at this juncture. Despite some skeptical decision making on Orton's part he still had a solid night. But i would love to see Tebow work with the 1st teamers no doubt about it.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

I was glad that Tebow looked good tonight for his first NFL game, but I was DEFINITELY glad that Orton looked as good as he did. The Broncos do not need a quarterback controversy.

[Davii]

For all we've heard about Willis' circus catchess..... Tebow put that ball PERFECTLY and Willis dropped it.

[SOCALORADO.]

Doubt that Tebow would surplant Orton at this juncture. Despite some skeptical decision making on Orton's part he still had a solid night. But i would love to see Tebow work with the 1st teamers no doubt about it.

No i dont think he'll supplant orton by the end of preseason, but he will be pushing orton. The pressure is on Orton, and its not a place anyone in his position wants to be. Theres no downside to Tebow. The coach has plans for him and he knows it. Tebow looked good tonight, and hes only going to push for more time, more reps, more snaps, more, more, more.

[SOCALORADO.]

For all we've heard about Willis' circus catchess..... Tebow put that ball PERFECTLY and Willis dropped it.

On the flip side, all we heard was Tebow couldnt throw deep accurately, and he makes a perfect pass deep down the sideline, and........*sighs*

[broncobryce]

Yeah I was very disappointed Willis dropped that. He did make some other nice catches besides. But damn I REALLY wanted to shut a lot of people up with a long TD for Tebow. Oh well, he still shut a lot of people up. Except Florio

[Davii]

On the flip side, all we heard was Tebow couldnt throw deep accurately, and he makes a perfect pass deep down the sideline, and........*sighs*

I was on my feet when I saw the target was open and it was going to be there. I was almost confused when I saw it drop from Willis' hands.

I'm looking forward to this team being healthy. As beat up as we are this team is only going to get better when everyone comes back.

I mean, the 1st team O was moving the ball with relative ease, and we had NO running game.

[rcsodak]

Doubt that Tebow would surplant Orton at this juncture. Despite some skeptical decision making on Orton's part he still had a solid night. But i would love to see Tebow work with the 1st teamers no doubt about it.

LMAO

Ya'll criticize Orton for "not taking chances" last year. He was "too careful". Thus, the positive TD/INT ratio.

So when he takes a couple "chances" tonight, it becomes "skeptical decision making", or "good thing the defender wasn't looking back".

Guess what, ANY time the ball is in the air, it can be intercepted....regardless of who threw it, how perfect/hard it's thrown.

And anybody here that claims Manning/Brady/Rivers/Favre/Elway/Cutler, etc have NEVER underthrown a receiver, or hit a defender in the helmet seriously has either never watched a football game before in their life, or is seriously just showing their ignorance.

Back in reality, Orton had a rating of 120, with 2 TD's, and 0 INT's, against a team that already has a game under it's belt.

[PAINTERDAVE]

Good points, Sodak.

Orton is gona have a good year...
right up until his regularly scheduled inury.

[Tom Nalen]

Orton is going to be our every game this year. After this year, Tebow will be given the keys to the offense.

[Tned]

Orton is going to be our every game this year. After this year, Tebow will be given the keys to the offense.

Let's just hope that when he's given the keys it's for something closer to a Ferrari then a Neon.

[Tom Nalen]

Let's just hope that when he's given the keys it's for something closer to a Ferrari then a Neon.

I'd rather have Tebow be a Bugatti -_-

[TimTebow15MVP]

Tebow has no shot at starting this year period, Orton is the man, he has the job on lock this year, aslong as hes healthy and we get our backs back and our OL healthy were gonna have an awesome offense led by orton. of course tim tebow is the franchise with the highest ceiling but hes not needed right now. When his number is called he will be ready but it wont be this year unless orton gets hurt and thats the way it should be because barring injury ortons gonna have a monster pro bowl type season, i can see about 4300 yards and 29tds this year from orton. We are then gonna trade him or keep him for one more year which i doubt, gotta get the high pick while hes hot... Quinn will be the number 2 again.....Just behind tebow and next year. Quinn will be the perfect back up...

But the thing about Orton is this is nothing brand new, Orton has been cooking in camp and otas all offseason.....Im glad this game came so people can actually see it happen but im not at all suprised by Orton going deep and showing that hes mastered the offense and playbook, Tebow suprised me though, He looked like a natural play making QB with those nice passes, spirals and all. Then he showed you what hes about blowing through two defenders for the touchdown in the final seconds. Injuring both of those players which was a LB and a Safety lol.

[Sconnie Bronco]

No i dont think he'll supplant orton by the end of preseason, but he will be pushing orton. The pressure is on Orton, and its not a place anyone in his position wants to be. Theres no downside to Tebow. The coach has plans for him and he knows it. Tebow looked good tonight, and hes only going to push for more time, more reps, more snaps, more, more, more.

This. Orton knows the pro game better and that counts for a lot. But there are things Tebow can do that Orton cant and if Tebow progresses (namely improves at decision making), he'll start pushing Orton.

[TimTebow15MVP]

There is nothing tebow can do to win the starting job this year, The broncos are sitting in the same position the packers was a few years ago with favre and aaron rodgers, Orton will eventually be traded for a high draft pick and tebow will take the league and set it on fire as rodgers has. Rodgers is one of the top 4 qbs in the league now. while favre is still good it worked out for both parties. packers got there nice draft pick, and they have there franchise QB. We have a franchise QB in tebow and we have a awesome QB in orton.......Orton goes on and has a nice career, we go on with tebow and win championships.

[claymore]

LMAO

Ya'll criticize Orton for "not taking chances" last year. He was "too careful". Thus, the positive TD/INT ratio.

So when he takes a couple "chances" tonight, it becomes "skeptical decision making", or "good thing the defender wasn't looking back".

Guess what, ANY time the ball is in the air, it can be intercepted....regardless of who threw it, how perfect/hard it's thrown.

And anybody here that claims Manning/Brady/Rivers/Favre/Elway/Cutler, etc have NEVER underthrown a receiver, or hit a defender in the helmet seriously has either never watched a football game before in their life, or is seriously just showing their ignorance.

Back in reality, Orton had a rating of 120, with 2 TD's, and 0 INT's, against a team that already has a game under it's belt.

Dont forget the 2 stalled drives that were bailed out by penalties. We would have had a punt and a FG try if it wasnt for luck.

I dont think Captain Caveman converted a third down.

[Lonestar]

The only way that Orton is still with us next year is as a UFA. Is us franching him.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

[Nomad]

Good game for Orton and Tebow and Champ!! Next weekend vs the Lions, I hope to see more of a run game and tackling....for so called professionals, I've seen Pop Warner kids do a better job of tackling.

FYI, as of today, the game won't be shown 'live' (as far as the NFL Network goes) on Sat but will be replayed at noon (central time) on Sunday on NFLN!

http://www.nfl.com/nflnetwork/networkschedule?selectedMonth=August&field=selectedDate&selectedDate=08%2F21%2F2010

[Tned]

There is nothing tebow can do to win the starting job this year, The broncos are sitting in the same position the packers was a few years ago with favre and aaron rodgers, Orton will eventually be traded for a high draft pick and tebow will take the league and set it on fire as rodgers has. Rodgers is one of the top 4 qbs in the league now. while favre is still good it worked out for both parties. packers got there nice draft pick, and they have there franchise QB. We have a franchise QB in tebow and we have a awesome QB in orton.......Orton goes on and has a nice career, we go on with tebow and win championships.

Big difference between GB/Favre and Denver/Orton. Unfortunately, people use high and low differently, but I assume when you use the term "high draft" pick, you are referring to a first or second or something like that, not sixth or seventh round pick.

Based on that, it is very, very unlikely that Orton would be traded for a high draft pick for a couple reasons:

First, Orton isn't under contract beyond this year. For the Broncos to trade him, they would have to resign him, franchise him or in some other way get him under contract to allow them to trade him (a lot depends on what happens with the CBA).

Second, when the Broncos traded for him, he was basically thrown in along with two first round draft picks for Cutler. Even having a great year, it is unlikely his stock would rise so high that he would command a first/second round pick. McNabb was traded for a fifth or something like that.

[Mike]

There were a lot of positives to take away from the game. Orton, Tebow, Defense, the team looked good despite missing many big contributors. The thing that impressed me most was the o-line though.

[TXBRONC]

I agree with Mike there were a lot of positives to take from last nights game. Orton did a good job of stepping up in the pocket he and he did make some nice intermediate throws. He didn't do well on the long throws but other than that he did fine. Like several others I was very pleased with what I saw from Tebow.

I was also pleased with what we saw from our new defensive line. If J. Williams can stay healthy for the entire season I should be a lot stouter up the middle. The Bengals didn't start scoring points until our starters were pulled. So even though this was a loss there are a lot of positives to take from this game.

[LTC Pain]

Big difference between GB/Favre and Denver/Orton. Unfortunately, people use high and low differently, but I assume when you use the term "high draft" pick, you are referring to a first or second or something like that, not sixth or seventh round pick.

Based on that, it is very, very unlikely that Orton would be traded for a high draft pick for a couple reasons:

First, Orton isn't under contract beyond this year. For the Broncos to trade him, they would have to resign him, franchise him or in some other way get him under contract to allow them to trade him (a lot depends on what happens with the CBA).

Second, when the Broncos traded for him, he was basically thrown in along with two first round draft picks for Cutler. Even having a great year, it is unlikely his stock would rise so high that he would command a first/second round pick. McNabb was traded for a fifth or something like that.

McNabb was traded for a 2nd round pick.

[GEM]

I agree with Mike there were a lot of positives to take from last nights game. Orton did a good job of stepping up in the pocket he and he did make some nice intermediate throws. He didn't do well on the long throws but other than that he did fine. Like several others I was very pleased with what I saw from Tebow.

I was also pleased with what we saw from our new defensive line. If J. Williams can stay healthy for the entire season I should be a lot stouter up the middle. The Bengals didn't start scoring points until our starters were pulled. So even though this was a loss there are a lot of positives to take from this game.

Also worth a mention, Cincy kept their 1's in on our 2's for a few series after we sat our starters.

[BroncoWave]

Also worth a mention, Cincy kept their 1's in on our 2's for a few series after we sat our starters.

It was just one series, but they did scored a TD on it.

[GEM]

It was just one series, but they did scored a TD on it.

I didn't pay close attention to the number of series, sorry. Just saw that Carson, Tweedledee (85) and Tweedledum (81) were still in on our 2nd's. :lol:

[Slick]

I was just happy to watch some Broncos football last night.

[LRtagger]

Big difference between GB/Favre and Denver/Orton. Unfortunately, people use high and low differently, but I assume when you use the term "high draft" pick, you are referring to a first or second or something like that, not sixth or seventh round pick.

Based on that, it is very, very unlikely that Orton would be traded for a high draft pick for a couple reasons:

First, Orton isn't under contract beyond this year. For the Broncos to trade him, they would have to resign him, franchise him or in some other way get him under contract to allow them to trade him (a lot depends on what happens with the CBA).

Second, when the Broncos traded for him, he was basically thrown in along with two first round draft picks for Cutler. Even having a great year, it is unlikely his stock would rise so high that he would command a first/second round pick. McNabb was traded for a fifth or something like that.

Cutler was traded for two 1st and a 3rd. We gave up a 5th for Orton.

McNabb was traded for a 2nd and he's old. Cassel was franchised and traded for a 2nd after one good season....Cassel also hadn't played since high school before that one season. Orton was a stud in college and has been a legitimate pro.

If Orton has another good season I could very easily see us franchising him and getting a 2nd for him if the team wants to move forward without him. If Orton makes the PB I could see us possibly even getting a 1st or a 2nd+ a player. I could also see us resigning him and running a similar setup to what Philly is doing. Let Orton run the standard offense and bring in Tebow to make plays. That in itself would be worth the 25th pick we spent on him.

[pnbronco]

I agree with Mike there were a lot of positives to take from last nights game. Orton did a good job of stepping up in the pocket he and he did make some nice intermediate throws. He didn't do well on the long throws but other than that he did fine. Like several others I was very pleased with what I saw from Tebow.

I was also pleased with what we saw from our new defensive line. If J. Williams can stay healthy for the entire season I should be a lot stouter up the middle. The Bengals didn't start scoring points until our starters were pulled. So even though this was a loss there are a lot of positives to take from this game.

Neither DJ or Dawks played last night. I thought there were a lot of positives and I'm so glad Kyle played as well as he did. It's a great way to start out on the right foot.

Special teams is still not special. We need a gunner. They have worked with Barrett the last couple of years and then he got hurt again and now gone. It's something that will need to be addressed and right away to be ready for the season opener.

[Sconnie Bronco]

Cutler was traded for two 1st and a 3rd. We gave up a 5th for Orton.

McNabb was traded for a 2nd and he's old. Cassel was franchised and traded for a 2nd after one good season....Cassel also hadn't played since high school before that one season. Orton was a stud in college and has been a legitimate pro.

If Orton has another good season I could very easily see us franchising him and getting a 2nd for him if the team wants to move forward without him. If Orton makes the PB I could see us possibly even getting a 1st or a 2nd+ a player. I could also see us resigning him and running a similar setup to what Philly is doing. Let Orton run the standard offense and bring in Tebow to make plays. That in itself would be worth the 25th pick we spent on him.

If Orton has a good year like this scenario depends on, I can see Minnesota giving up a first for him assuming Favre comes back this year and its his last year. But also if Winfield and Williams start to seem old and Favre retires, I think Minnesota might want to re-build. Its not all on Favre. Minnesota has other older players they depend on but if they feel good about them, I can see Minnesota bringing in Orton for a first (which would likely be a low first).

[Tned]

McNabb was traded for a 2nd round pick.

My bad, I must have been thinking of Boldin. I still don't see Orton bringing anything close to McNabb, especially being a UFA/RFA and at best franchised.


Cutler was traded for two 1st and a 3rd. We gave up a 5th for Orton.

McNabb was traded for a 2nd and he's old. Cassel was franchised and traded for a 2nd after one good season....Cassel also hadn't played since high school before that one season. Orton was a stud in college and has been a legitimate pro.

If Orton has another good season I could very easily see us franchising him and getting a 2nd for him if the team wants to move forward without him. If Orton makes the PB I could see us possibly even getting a 1st or a 2nd+ a player. I could also see us resigning him and running a similar setup to what Philly is doing. Let Orton run the standard offense and bring in Tebow to make plays. That in itself would be worth the 25th pick we spent on him.

You can't say that Orton was traded for a 5th, as it was a total package. I haven't seen anything that says they settled on two firsts and a third for Cutler, and then reached a seperate deal of a 5th for Orton.

An "old" McNabb is still light years beyond Orton in skill. It is possible that Orton will blossom into a top tier QB this season, but right now at best he's a middle of the pack QB, where McNabb is still in the top tier.

[Tned]

If Orton has a good year like this scenario depends on, I can see Minnesota giving up a first for him assuming Favre comes back this year and its his last year. But also if Winfield and Williams start to seem old and Favre retires, I think Minnesota might want to re-build. Its not all on Favre. Minnesota has other older players they depend on but if they feel good about them, I can see Minnesota bringing in Orton for a first (which would likely be a low first).

In these 1st or 2nd round for Orton trade scenarios, how are you addressing the part where Orton isn't under contract?

Do you assume that the Broncos will franchise Orton, pay him the average of the top 5 QBs in the league, and then manage to trade a guy for a first round pick that is on a one year, VERY expensive, contract? :confused:

[Northman]

An "old" McNabb is still light years beyond Orton in skill. It is possible that Orton will blossom into a top tier QB this season, but right now at best he's a middle of the pack QB, where McNabb is still in the top tier.

Indeed. Both he and (surprisingly) Rex Grossman looked stellar in their debuts the other night.

[TXBRONC]

Indeed. Both he and (surprisingly) Rex Grossman looked stellar in their debuts the other night.

While I'm very glad Orton played well in the limited time he was in the game, it still important to remember it was a preseason game and he was going up against a vanilla defense.

[Sconnie Bronco]

In these 1st or 2nd round for Orton trade scenarios, how are you addressing the part where Orton isn't under contract?

Do you assume that the Broncos will franchise Orton, pay him the average of the top 5 QBs in the league, and then manage to trade a guy for a first round pick that is on a one year, VERY expensive, contract? :confused:

Let me just be clear at the outset that this isnt even what I think but Im addressing what Ive heard people say. And in this scenario, I think it typically involves franchising him. Im not so sure theyd do that. Theyd have to pay him top 5 money and hope they find a trade partner.

Im not saying its impossible but Im not so sure its realistic. But in this scenario, it involves Orton having a great season and, after franchising him, finding a trade partner who is win now, like Minnesota.

Another reason that I dont think this is realistic is because the franchise tag might actually be used on either Champ or Ryan Harris.

But theres a scenario out there where it might happen, however unlikely.

[Tned]

Let me just be clear at the outset that this isnt even what I think but Im addressing what Ive heard people say. And in this scenario, I think it typically involves franchising him. Im not so sure theyd do that. Theyd have to pay him top 5 money and hope they find a trade partner.

Im not saying its impossible but Im not so sure its realistic. But in this scenario, it involves Orton having a great season and, after franchising him, finding a trade partner who is win now, like Minnesota.

Another reason that I dont think this is realistic is because the franchise tag might actually be used on either Champ or Ryan Harris.

But theres a scenario out there where it might happen, however unlikely.

That is what happened with Cassel, but that is a HUGE gamble on the Broncos part. There is also the transition tag, which is the average of the top 10 salaries at the position, but I am not sure who qualifies for the transition tag.

I just think there are few trade possibilities involving Orton. If he plays so great that McDaniels doesn't want to lose him, then he likely signs him to be the 2011 starter. Otherwise, more than likely he leaves as a free agent.

[missingnumber7]

In my mind we are in the same boat as we were last year. Orton is the starter, much to many's shagrin, we have a backup that NO ONE wants, and a kid as 3rd string that is in development. Now I will say that I want to see how Tebow does against the Vikes in the final game of the preseason before I make any comments about him vs Brandstater, but that being said, I think that we are better off at #3 now than we were last year. But I still say that if anything happens to Orton, we are going to be hurting.

[missingnumber7]

I didn't pay close attention to the number of series, sorry. Just saw that Carson, Tweedledee (85) and Tweedledum (81) were still in on our 2nd's. :lol:

Our starting D threw a shut out, thanks to bad field goal kicking by the Bungles.

[Sconnie Bronco]

That is what happened with Cassel, but that is a HUGE gamble on the Broncos part. There is also the transition tag, which is the average of the top 10 salaries at the position, but I am not sure who qualifies for the transition tag.

I just think there are few trade possibilities involving Orton. If he plays so great that McDaniels doesn't want to lose him, then he likely signs him to be the 2011 starter. Otherwise, more than likely he leaves as a free agent.

As I previously said, I agree that its unlikely but theres a lot in front of us that will decide what happens. Nothing is "impossible" at this point, however unlikely.

But, as I said, I agree that its a big gamble and even doubtful, especially with Champ and Harris being FAs.

But Im not going to lie, I wouldnt mind getting something for Orton if he does well.

[Tned]

But Im not going to lie, I wouldnt mind getting something for Orton if he does well.

Obviously, I would love to get something for him as well, but typically teams don't get anything for free agents other than possibly a compensatory pick from the NFL.

[Sconnie Bronco]

Obviously, I would love to get something for him as well, but typically teams don't get anything for free agents other than possibly a compensatory pick from the NFL.

I was talking about the scenario where they would tag him.

[TXBRONC]

Obviously, I would love to get something for him as well, but typically teams don't get anything for free agents other than possibly a compensatory pick from the NFL.

I wonder what the chances are that we get compenatory pick? :ponder:

[LRtagger]

You can't say that Orton was traded for a 5th, as it was a total package. I haven't seen anything that says they settled on two firsts and a third for Cutler, and then reached a seperate deal of a 5th for Orton.

An "old" McNabb is still light years beyond Orton in skill. It is possible that Orton will blossom into a top tier QB this season, but right now at best he's a middle of the pack QB, where McNabb is still in the top tier.

OK. The 5th was best case scenario. The point is, Orton wasn't a throw-in. We gave up at a minimum a 5th for him. You can rearrange it to make it look like we gave up a 5th, or a 3rd, or a 3rd and 5th. Obviously the two firsts were for Cutler...but at the LEAST we gave up a 5th. In my personal opinion if Orton were not involved in the trade we would have obtained two 1st and a 3rd and not given up the 5th.

Yes McNabb is a better player, but my point was McNabb is on the backend of his career. He doesn't have many years left and he garnered a second. It is perfectly conceivable that Orton would garner a high round pick if he has a breakout year this season. Hell even if he puts up similar numbers to last year we should get no less than a 3rd for him.

Orton is a much more solid QB than Cassel and Cassel got a high 2nd rounder (a washed up Vrabel being included as well).

Personally, I think if Orton tears it up this year we sign him to an extension. Tebow or no Tebow. Worst case we get a 3rd for him....no way they let him walk to free agency unless he absolutely stinks it up.

[Tned]

OK. The 5th was best case scenario. The point is, Orton wasn't a throw-in. We gave up at a minimum a 5th for him. You can rearrange it to make it look like we gave up a 5th, or a 3rd, or a 3rd and 5th. Obviously the two firsts were for Cutler...but at the LEAST we gave up a 5th. In my personal opinion if Orton were not involved in the trade we would have obtained two 1st and a 3rd and not given up the 5th.

This is impossible to argue, because it is a pure guess. You might be right, the 5th might have been for Orton, or the deal could have been Cutler and a 5th for two firsts and a third, and McDaniels said no, we need more. There is just no telling. Based on the fact that McDaniels reportedly wanted a QB in return, it is unlikely the parts of the trade were that well defined. Instead, it was likely something like two firsts + Orton for Cutler, and then they haggled about evening it up more, and wound up swapping the 3rd and 5th.

The point is that the price for Cutler was two first and a QB, that was being discussed all over the media outlets.



Yes McNabb is a better player, but my point was McNabb is on the backend of his career. He doesn't have many years left and he garnered a second. It is perfectly conceivable that Orton would garner a high round pick if he has a breakout year this season. Hell even if he puts up similar numbers to last year we should get no less than a 3rd for him.

Jason Cambpell was young, too. Teams aren't looking for 'young' QBs, they are looking for QBs that they think will win. In Denver, they had Orton, and traded for Quinn and drafted Tebow. Not a glowing endorsement of Orton.


Orton is a much more solid QB than Cassel and Cassel got a high 2nd rounder (a washed up Vrabel being included as well).

That's an opinion, and to this point, I have heard nobody around the NFL voicing that opinion. Cassel might be a one year wonder (I think it's likely), but unlike Orton, he's had that "one year".


Personally, I think if Orton tears it up this year we sign him to an extension. Tebow or no Tebow. Worst case we get a 3rd for him....no way they let him walk to free agency unless he absolutely stinks it up.

That may be true (the no way we let him walk), but that is not typically how free agency works. It is the exception, rather than the rule, to sign a player, only to turn around and trade him.

There are many problems with your scenario. I'll just toss out a couple.

If Orton tears it up, he is going to want a 5+ year deal. He is already on record about being dissapointed that he wasn't signed to a long term deal in Denver. He is not going to sign a one year contract, unless something screwy in the CBA turns him back into a RFA, or we franchise him (paying him top 5 QB money).

If we sign him to a long term deal, which will have to include a hefty signing bonus (based on the tearing it up theory and Cassel theory) and give him a $40-50 million contract or more. Then, turn around and trade him for a third, and have his ENTIRE signing bonus count against us, because when you trade a player, any pro-rated signing bonus gets accelerated to the current year.

So, the only real options for a sign and trade in the NFL are him willingly signing a one year contract (not going to happen unless no other team wants him, which nulifies a trade option), the new CBA makes him an RFA again, or we franchise him and pay him top 5 money (what happened with Cassel).

In summary, any type of sign and trade will be a VERY, VERY remote possibility. If he tears it up, and McDaniels wants him to be the Broncos long term option, then he 'might' be able to sign Orton to a long term deal, but Orton might not bite, if he thinks Tebow is waiting in the wings to take his job.

[TXBRONC]

OK. The 5th was best case scenario. The point is, Orton wasn't a throw-in. We gave up at a minimum a 5th for him. You can rearrange it to make it look like we gave up a 5th, or a 3rd, or a 3rd and 5th. Obviously the two firsts were for Cutler...but at the LEAST we gave up a 5th. In my personal opinion if Orton were not involved in the trade we would have obtained two 1st and a 3rd and not given up the 5th.

Yes McNabb is a better player, but my point was McNabb is on the backend of his career. He doesn't have many years left and he garnered a second. It is perfectly conceivable that Orton would garner a high round pick if he has a breakout year this season. Hell even if he puts up similar numbers to last year we should get no less than a 3rd for him.

Orton is a much more solid QB than Cassel and Cassel got a high 2nd rounder (a washed up Vrabel being included as well).

Personally, I think if Orton tears it up this year we sign him to an extension. Tebow or no Tebow. Worst case we get a 3rd for him....no way they let him walk to free agency unless he absolutely stinks it up.

Fact are facts Orton was not a separate trade. McDaniel's own words "We weren't going to trade Jay for just picks." So if Orton wasn't apart of the trade there isn't trade. He wanted a quarterback with starting experience.

You're certainly entitled to your opinion that Orton is much better starter but I disagree. By your own admission Cassel hadn't started a game since high school yet he he puts up nearly the same numbers Orton did last season and on top of that the Patriots go 11-5 and narrowly miss the playoffs. Orton didn't do well down the stretch 11 of 12 interceptions came from the 7th game of the season on.

I think you missed the point about McNabb. The point is that even though McNabb is in the twilight of his career he still better than Orton by a long shot and therefore worth a second round. I think that's what Tned meant.

Again I respect your opinion about Orton but I don't agree. First of all it's a big if that Orton just tears up. I assume you mean he's right up their statistically where likes of Manning and Brady will be at the end of season. Even if he does have that kind of year I seriously doubt he'll get a term extension. For something like that to even become a possibility Orton would at the very least have to lead Denver on a deep playoff run.

I see him as middle of the road/journeyman quarterback. He wont win a lot games for you but he also wont make a lot of mistakes.

Maybe you'll be proven right in the end but I don't think it will work out quite like that.

[LRtagger]

This is impossible to argue, because it is a pure guess. You might be right, the 5th might have been for Orton, or the deal could have been Cutler and a 5th for two firsts and a third, and McDaniels said no, we need more. There is just no telling. Based on the fact that McDaniels reportedly wanted a QB in return, it is unlikely the parts of the trade were that well defined. Instead, it was likely something like two firsts + Orton for Cutler, and then they haggled about evening it up more, and wound up swapping the 3rd and 5th.

The point is that the price for Cutler was two first and a QB, that was being discussed all over the media outlets.

The point is at the very minimum we gave up SOMETHING for Orton. I don't think trading a 3rd and a 5th were just to make it seem more fair. I know they won't divulge the specifics, but I hardly think that many draft picks would be exchanged just for one player. Just my opinion.



Jason Cambpell was young, too. Teams aren't looking for 'young' QBs, they are looking for QBs that they think will win. In Denver, they had Orton, and traded for Quinn and drafted Tebow. Not a glowing endorsement of Orton.

My point wasn't teams are looking for young QBs. My point was they gave up a 2nd round pick for a guy that has a limited number of quality years left. Yea teams look for guys who can win, which just illustrates the point further. Jason Campbell was 20-32 as a starter. He hadn't shown a whole lot at the NFL level. Yet the Redskins got a 4th for him after a terrible year. I would think after two consecutive solid years (assuming Orton plays as good as or better this year), he will be worth at least a 3rd.



That's an opinion, and to this point, I have heard nobody around the NFL voicing that opinion. Cassel might be a one year wonder (I think it's likely), but unlike Orton, he's had that "one year".

Really? Orton hasn't had that "one year"? You should check Cassel's stats in 08 vs Orton's 09 stats. Yea you can counter final record, but Cassel was familiar with the system and was piloting a Super Bowl team yet still missed the playoffs.



That may be true (the no way we let him walk), but that is not typically how free agency works. It is the exception, rather than the rule, to sign a player, only to turn around and trade him.

There are many problems with your scenario. I'll just toss out a couple.

If Orton tears it up, he is going to want a 5+ year deal. He is already on record about being dissapointed that he wasn't signed to a long term deal in Denver. He is not going to sign a one year contract, unless something screwy in the CBA turns him back into a RFA, or we franchise him (paying him top 5 QB money).

If we sign him to a long term deal, which will have to include a hefty signing bonus (based on the tearing it up theory and Cassel theory) and give him a $40-50 million contract or more. Then, turn around and trade him for a third, and have his ENTIRE signing bonus count against us, because when you trade a player, any pro-rated signing bonus gets accelerated to the current year.

So, the only real options for a sign and trade in the NFL are him willingly signing a one year contract (not going to happen unless no other team wants him, which nulifies a trade option), the new CBA makes him an RFA again, or we franchise him and pay him top 5 money (what happened with Cassel).

In summary, any type of sign and trade will be a VERY, VERY remote possibility. If he tears it up, and McDaniels wants him to be the Broncos long term option, then he 'might' be able to sign Orton to a long term deal, but Orton might not bite, if he thinks Tebow is waiting in the wings to take his job.


It would be beyond dumb to sign him to an extension with guaranteed money and then trade him. We either franchise and trade him (no we wouldnt have to pay him top 5 money if we traded him), or we sign him to a 3+ year deal and keep him until Tebow beats him out in camp and THEN cut/trade him.

Either way, the only way Orton walks from the team with no compensation is if he sucks this season. And I personally do not see that happening.

Maybe I'm wrong, but it would be idiotic to let a valuable player walk away from the team and hope for a comp pick which would likely be a late round selection.

[Tned]

The point is at the very minimum we gave up SOMETHING for Orton. I don't think trading a 3rd and a 5th were just to make it seem more fair. I know they won't divulge the specifics, but I hardly think that many draft picks would be exchanged just for one player. Just my opinion.

If you look at your initial argument, two firsts + third for Culter, why would saying the 5th was also in the mix being too many picks? :confused:


My point wasn't teams are looking for young QBs. My point was they gave up a 2nd round pick for a guy that has a limited number of quality years left. Yea teams look for guys who can win, which just illustrates the point further. Jason Campbell was 20-32 as a starter. He hadn't shown a whole lot at the NFL level. Yet the Redskins got a 4th for him after a terrible year. I would think after two consecutive solid years (assuming Orton plays as good as or better this year), he will be worth at least a 3rd.

Redskins are looking to win now. Just like the Vikings willing to pay a king's ransom for Favre to come back for another season.

Why would a team give us a 3rd round pick for a free agent? :confused:


Really? Orton hasn't had that "one year"? You should check Cassel's stats in 08 vs Orton's 09 stats. Yea you can counter final record, but Cassel was familiar with the system and was piloting a Super Bowl team yet still missed the playoffs.

Yes, I will counter with wins/losses. You might want to check how many wins Orton led the Broncos to in the final 10 games of '09.

If the Orton was able to complete passes beyond 5 yards, the Broncos would have had a chance to capitalize on the 6-0 start.



It would be beyond dumb to sign him to an extension with guaranteed money and then trade him. We either franchise and trade him (no we wouldnt have to pay him top 5 money if we traded him), or we sign him to a 3+ year deal and keep him until Tebow beats him out in camp and THEN cut/trade him.

Can you provide examples of how often teams franchise a player and then trade them?


Either way, the only way Orton walks from the team with no compensation is if he sucks this season. And I personally do not see that happening.

Post noted to be bumped seven months from now.


Maybe I'm wrong, but it would be idiotic to let a valuable player walk away from the team and hope for a comp pick which would likely be a late round selection.

Just out of curiousity, have you looked at the list of free agents on the market each year? Do you honestly believe they are less valuable than Orton? Were all of those teams/GM's idiotic? Some of these free agents sign $30, $40, $50 or $60 million deals. Why didn't their team just sign them and trade them, rather than let a 'valuable' player go?

It is VERY rare for a team to franchise a free agent in the 'hope' of getting something in return for a trade.

[topscribe]

Jason Cambpell was young, too. Teams aren't looking for 'young' QBs, they are looking for QBs that they think will win. In Denver, they had Orton, and traded for Quinn and drafted Tebow. Not a glowing endorsement of Orton.

Possible with Tebow, not so much with Quinn, IMO. I don't really believe they
traded for Quinn to replace Orton. I believe he was to replace Simms, and, as
we saw, they weren't sold on Brandstater.

With Tebow, of course, they don't draft in the first round for a backup QB. But
one other QB might have something to say about that: Orton himself. He
stated he was out to make decisions tough for the Broncos, and I think he
meant it.

Having said that, I still don't know how Orton will be around following this
year. Even if he plays lights out, will the Broncos want to give him a big,
multi-year deal with Tebow on the bench? Just doesn't seem plausible. But
then, a lot will depend on Tebow's development . . .

-----

[Tned]

Possible with Tebow, not so much with Quinn, IMO. I don't really believe they
traded for Quinn to replace Orton. I believe he was to replace Simms, and, as
we saw, they weren't sold on Brandstater.

With Tebow, of course, they don't draft in the first round for a backup QB. But
one other QB might have something to say about that: Orton himself. He
stated he was out to make decisions tough for the Broncos, and I think he
meant it.

Having said that, I still don't know how Orton will be around following this
year. Even if he plays lights out, will the Broncos want to give him a big,
multi-year deal with Tebow on the bench? Just doesn't seem plausible. But
then, a lot will depend on Tebow's development . . .

-----

You are probbly right about Quinn. Replace Simms, or another way to look at it, is depth to compete for the job and be a capable backup if he doesn't win it.

Tebow is a BIG project. He has the 'potential' for huge upside, but just as easily could be out of the NFL in a couple years. There's a pretty good chance he's boom or bust material. So, I think there is a chance that Orton could play so well, and run McDaniels' offense so well, that he won't want to let him go, but for that to happen it will not only require Orton to have an amazing year, but for McDaniels to have doubts about Tebow as his QB of the future.

I agree with you, it's hard to envision scenarios where Orton is here long term. Orton wants a long term deal and wants to start. The Broncos appear to be looking for Tebow to fill that role. Something has to give.

[rcsodak]

Dont forget the 2 stalled drives that were bailed out by penalties. We would have had a punt and a FG try if it wasnt for luck.

I dont think Captain Caveman converted a third down.

Leave it to you, clay, to use the very essence of the NFL as your only negative against Orton. :rolleyes:

[rcsodak]

The only way that Orton is still with us next year is as a UFA. Is us franching him.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

Which makes it awful hard to "trade him for a high draft pick".

LOL.... I'm sure that makes certain posters here, that think of him only as a "journeyman", spurt milk out their noses.

[rcsodak]

Second, when the Broncos traded for him, he was basically thrown in along with two first round draft picks for Cutler. Even having a great year, it is unlikely his stock would rise so high that he would command a first/second round pick. McNabb was traded for a fifth or something like that.

Hate to correct you, Tned, but Orton wasn't "thrown in". The deal was CONTINGENT on McD getting him.

......carry on. ;)

[rcsodak]

As I previously said, I agree that its unlikely but theres a lot in front of us that will decide what happens. Nothing is "impossible" at this point, however unlikely.

But, as I said, I agree that its a big gamble and even doubtful, especially with Champ and Harris being FAs.

But Im not going to lie, I wouldnt mind getting something for Orton if he does well.

Since when did ORT's become such a worry? It's not like that's the highest paid position on the Oline.

As far as champ goes, I'm not so certain he's too worried about a big contract, with the amount he's received lately. He wants a RING! And he's smart enough to know that it takes money to make a team, not a player.

[JDL]

Interesting that people consider that a good game for Tebow. I am not saying it was a bad game, but it wasn't good either.

It was a mixed bag of everything we know about him. The elongated delivery several times almost turned into turnovers. He cannot seem to get rid of the ball quickly when faced with pressure in the pocket and exposes the ball too much, and when he did force it out, there was contact on his body that forced him to throw poor balls that were very luckily not INTs.

On the flipside, he threw well when he was able to get the ball off, he looked good rolling out and passing. He showed a lot of poise and didn't seem to let bad plays or poor pass protection bother him too much.

Bottom line, he showed his positives can allow him to play in the NFL (that was not always a given coming out), but the detractors are absolutely correct that his throwing motion may ultimately prevent him from being a starting NFL QB. It's a work in a progress, an entertaining one and we know he will do his best, but it is interesting that the guy seems to have an awful lot of cred to burn, people want him to do well so badly they are willing to gloss over anything from him it seems. And I don't mean just here, the media, fans, probably his teammates desperately want him to become a star... a lot of players would die for that type of goodwill...lol... it is an incredibly interesting phenomena.

[TimTebow15MVP]

Orton was not a throw in, he was hand picked. numerous teams were offering the same draft picks and a QB and mcdaniels chose orton out of cambell, tavaris jackson, forgot the guy tampa offered. browns offered anderson or quinn. when mcdaniels made the decision it was that he just had to have orton come in and run his system. far from a throw in player.

[Elevation inc]

Interesting that people consider that a good game for Tebow. I am not saying it was a bad game, but it wasn't good either.

It was a mixed bag of everything we know about him. The elongated delivery several times almost turned into turnovers. He cannot seem to get rid of the ball quickly when faced with pressure in the pocket and exposes the ball too much, and when he did force it out, there was contact on his body that forced him to throw poor balls that were very luckily not INTs.

On the flipside, he threw well when he was able to get the ball off, he looked good rolling out and passing. He showed a lot of poise and didn't seem to let bad plays or poor pass protection bother him too much.

Bottom line, he showed his positives can allow him to play in the NFL (that was not always a given coming out), but the detractors are absolutely correct that his throwing motion may ultimately prevent him from being a starting NFL QB. It's a work in a progress, an entertaining one and we know he will do his best, but it is interesting that the guy seems to have an awful lot of cred to burn, people want him to do well so badly they are willing to gloss over anything from him it seems. And I don't mean just here, the media, fans, probably his teammates desperately want him to become a star... a lot of players would die for that type of goodwill...lol... it is an incredibly interesting phenomena.




this is hilarious frosty tucker a good rotational DL player for the bengals, a Cb blitz, and bringing six or seven guys every play by mike zimmer, coupled with 3 Ol scrubs and a tired Beadles and walton
and we wonder why tebow had issues with pressure.......hahaha



to be honest i think zimmer just wanted tebow to get a NFL welcoming.....not to often do you see blitzing as much as zimmer was doing in the 4th quarter on tebow....a cb delay blitz??? really thats a reg season thing

pretty sure it would be a different story with a different OL.......

[Tned]

Hate to correct you, Tned, but Orton wasn't "thrown in". The deal was CONTINGENT on McD getting him.

......carry on. ;)

Yikes, four replies in a row. Once again, multi-quote http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/images/buttons/multiquote_off.gif is not only your friend, it makes everyone else's experience better. ;)

It was well publicized that McDaniels wanted two firsts and a QB. He reportedly wasn't interested in teams like Detroit that were only offering picks. Of the teams that offered two firsts and a QB, Peter King says that McDaniels liked Orton more than any other QB (Campbell and at least one other that I'm drawing a blank on) on the table in a Cutler trade.

As to being contingent, unless you were in the rooms, or have info that isn't in the public domain for the rest of us, it was only contingent in the sense that he required a QB back, so therefore wouldn't have traded with the Bears if he wasn't getting a QB in the Cutler trade.

There is still no basis to what I was replying to, which is that the 5th was the compensation for Orton.


Which makes it awful hard to "trade him for a high draft pick".

LOL.... I'm sure that makes certain posters here, that think of him only as a "journeyman", spurt milk out their noses.

Spurting fascinations aside, this wouldn't make those that see him as a journeyman mad. Those people would be fine with cutting him or trading him for a 5th or 6th right now, because they don't think he has much value.

The people that don't get Jr's poing (and one I have been making as well) is that Orton will have virtually no trade value next year, and the only way we could trade him is if we franchised him, which is not a likely scenario.

So, while I applaud your attempt to take a underhanded shot at those that have called Orton a journemany (that was sarcasm) and give you an A for effort, I have to give you an F for execution, based on the fact that you are confused about which group is making which argument.


Leave it to you, clay, to use the very essence of the NFL as your only negative against Orton. :rolleyes:

Ironic, in another thread I saw you do the same thing. As a way to minimize what Marshall has done in the past, you went out on the major limb of betting that he wouldn't have 100 receptions this year, meaning four 100 receptions in a row, which only 2 or 3 players in the HISTORY of the NFL have ever done. Talk about using the very essence of the NFL....


Since when did ORT's become such a worry? It's not like that's the highest paid position on the Oline.



You're kidding, right?

First, in '08 when both Clady and Harris were healthy, they gave up only 1/2 sack each, and that was huge for the passing game.

However, beyond that, you might have heard of this sleeper QB named Tim Tebow. He hasn't gotten much press, and not too many people know about himk, but there is this 'outside' chance that he might be a starter pretty soon.

He's a lefty, so the Broncos' right tackle will be protecting his blind side. That means the RT on the Broncos will be as valuable as the LT on most teams.


As far as champ goes, I'm not so certain he's too worried about a big contract, with the amount he's received lately. He wants a RING! And he's smart enough to know that it takes money to make a team, not a player.

Really, you're not sure a big contract is important? Read the sports news much? Might want to start.

[claymore]

Leave it to you, clay, to use the very essence of the NFL as your only negative against Orton. :rolleyes:

So penalties are the very essence of the NFL? Or converting a third downs?

[LRtagger]

If you look at your initial argument, two firsts + third for Culter, why would saying the 5th was also in the mix being too many picks? :confused:

If Cutler were the only player involved, why would both teams throw around a bunch of day 2 picks? You said yourself that McDaniels was looking for two 1st and a player for Cutler. So at a MINIMUM we gave up SOMETHING for Orton which was my point all along. You seem to think Orton isnt worth a draft pick.



Redskins are looking to win now. Just like the Vikings willing to pay a king's ransom for Favre to come back for another season.

The Vikings are looking for Favre to come back because he is a HOFer coming off the best season of his career. That and the Vikings are stacked. They think Favre is their best shot at winning a SB.

The Redskins are not stacked. They went 4-12 last year. Sure Donovan will help them win a couple games on his own, but how many years does he have left to wait for the rest of the team to get it together? This is a typical "we're only one player away from winning" Shanny reach.


Why would a team give us a 3rd round pick for a free agent? :confused:

There are ways to lock up free agents in order to get compensation



Yes, I will counter with wins/losses. You might want to check how many wins Orton led the Broncos to in the final 10 games of '09.

If the Orton was able to complete passes beyond 5 yards, the Broncos would have had a chance to capitalize on the 6-0 start.

Of course. Discount the first 6 games of the season. Also discount the fact that the team Cassel took over went 16-0 the previous year. It's not always about win-loss. What was Cutler's record when he was traded? What was Campbell's record when he was traded? I noticed how you only included Cassel in your response.



Can you provide examples of how often teams franchise a player and then trade them?

It doesn't happen often because most teams dont let their top QB walk in FA. They typically sign them to an extension unless they have a better QB that is ready to take over. Obviously this is not a scenario that happens often. But Matt Cassel's deal is a perfect example.



Post noted to be bumped seven months from now.

It wouldn't bother me in the least if I was wrong. These are all OPINIONS of mine, of course. If it will make you feel better to pound your chest, by all means...



Just out of curiousity, have you looked at the list of free agents on the market each year? Do you honestly believe they are less valuable than Orton? Were all of those teams/GM's idiotic? Some of these free agents sign $30, $40, $50 or $60 million deals. Why didn't their team just sign them and trade them, rather than let a 'valuable' player go?

Different scenarios. Can you point out any other occurances where a team's starting QB for two years straight threw for 3500+ yards, 20+ TDs and nearly a 2:1 INT ratio and walked in FA? This, of course, is assuming Orton doesn't regress this season.


It is VERY rare for a team to franchise a free agent in the 'hope' of getting something in return for a trade.

Not for a quality starting QB.

[claymore]

If Cutler were the only player involved, why would both teams throw around a bunch of day 2 picks? You said yourself that McDaniels was looking for two 1st and a player for Cutler. So at a MINIMUM we gave up SOMETHING for Orton which was my point all along. You seem to think Orton isnt worth a draft pick.




The Vikings are looking for Favre to come back because he is a HOFer coming off the best season of his career. That and the Vikings are stacked. They think Favre is their best shot at winning a SB.

The Redskins are not stacked. They went 4-12 last year. Sure Donovan will help them win a couple games on his own, but how many years does he have left to wait for the rest of the team to get it together? This is a typical "we're only one player away from winning" Shanny reach.



There are ways to lock up free agents in order to get compensation




Of course. Discount the first 6 games of the season. Also discount the fact that the team Cassel took over went 16-0 the previous year. It's not always about win-loss. What was Cutler's record when he was traded? What was Campbell's record when he was traded? I noticed how you only included Cassel in your response.




It doesn't happen often because most teams dont let their top QB walk in FA. They typically sign them to an extension unless they have a better QB that is ready to take over. Obviously this is not a scenario that happens often. But Matt Cassel's deal is a perfect example.




It wouldn't bother me in the least if I was wrong. These are all OPINIONS of mine, of course. If it will make you feel better to pound your chest, by all means...




Different scenarios. Can you point out any other occurances where a team's starting QB for two years straight threw for 3500+ yards, 20+ TDs and nearly a 2:1 INT ratio and walked in FA? This, of course, is assuming Orton doesn't regress this season.


Not for a quality starting QB.
Drew Brees.

[Tned]

If Cutler were the only player involved, why would both teams throw around a bunch of day 2 picks? You said yourself that McDaniels was looking for two 1st and a player for Cutler. So at a MINIMUM we gave up SOMETHING for Orton which was my point all along. You seem to think Orton isnt worth a draft pick.

Yes, he gave up Cutler. The going rate was two firsts and a QB.

Now, as we all know, not all firsts are the same. So, the other picks were likely to equalize the first rounders compared to say what Washington or Tampa or other clubs were offering.

However, this is all speculation, so who really knows what was said in the trade talks. I don't.


The Vikings are looking for Favre to come back because he is a HOFer coming off the best season of his career. That and the Vikings are stacked. They think Favre is their best shot at winning a SB.

Yea, but he's old!


The Redskins are not stacked. They went 4-12 last year. Sure Donovan will help them win a couple games on his own, but how many years does he have left to wait for the rest of the team to get it together? This is a typical "we're only one player away from winning" Shanny reach.

Yes, but many NFL experts (that's what we call the talking heads and radio jocks) believe that the Redskins will compete for the NFC East division.

This argument of yours doesn't hold water. The Redskins while horrid last year, are not looked at as a rebuilding project.


There are ways to lock up free agents in order to get compensation

Again, I would love to see some examples (beyond Cassell) of where 'valuable' free agents were 'locked up' and then traded. I'm not aware of this being common place, but I accept that I could be wrong.


Of course. Discount the first 6 games of the season. Also discount the fact that the team Cassel took over went 16-0 the previous year. It's not always about win-loss. What was Cutler's record when he was traded? What was Campbell's record when he was traded? I noticed how you only included Cassel in your response.

:confused: I mentioned Cassel, because I was referring to a statement YOU made about Cassel and comparing him to Orton. If you are going to move the target in a discussion/debate, please give me advanced warning. ;)


It doesn't happen often because most teams dont let their top QB walk in FA. They typically sign them to an extension unless they have a better QB that is ready to take over. Obviously this is not a scenario that happens often. But Matt Cassel's deal is a perfect example.

Cassel isn't a perfect example, because Brady was coming off not only a torn ACL, but also a antibiotic resistant staff infection, which not only pushed back his recovery time table, but for a while there was thought he might have to have another surgery, because if an infection lasts too long, it can effect the integrity of the graffed tendon.

Beyond that, you have been able to give ONE example, Cassel. Beyond, beyond that, you throw out that teams "don't let their top QB walk in FA", but the fact is that happens quite a bit, which is why we wind up with QBs on the free agent market. No, Mannings and the like don't often wind up on the free agent market, but your Orton/Cutler type QBs are on the FA market quite often.

Again, if I'm wrong, and you can provide me with examples where it is routine to 'lock up' valuable players before they are free agents, for the sole purpose of getting trade value, I will concede I am wrong. I just honestly don't believe that happens very often.


It wouldn't bother me in the least if I was wrong. These are all OPINIONS of mine, of course. If it will make you feel better to pound your chest, by all means...

I was using that as a means of noting how crazy your assertion was without saying it. "The only way he walks is if he sucks"? It just doesn't add up with the reality of the NFL and free agency.


Different scenarios. Can you point out any other occurances where a team's starting QB for two years straight threw for 3500+ yards, 20+ TDs and nearly a 2:1 INT ratio and walked in FA? This, of course, is assuming Orton doesn't regress this season.

Not at the moment, but I don't have time to look at stats. Of the top of my head, I have no idea. All I can say is that you, and some other Broncos fans, seem to hold Kyle Orton in MUCH higher regards in terms of his capability as a starter, than most of the so-called experts around the NFL.

Now, I've heard a lot of talking heads say they don't think Orton has reached his full potential, and 'could' get better, but I've heard none that consider him a top tier QB, or anything close to that.


Not for a quality starting QB.

Again, then provide examples other than Cassell of QB's being franchised for the sole purpose of trading them and not letting the QB go without compensation in return.

[rcsodak]

So penalties are the very essence of the NFL? Or converting a third downs?
your "luck" point, clay. Ask any player/ex, and they'll tell you luck has EVERYTHING to do with the game. Luck=no major injuries/bounce of the ball/weather/timing of schedule/home v away/ref calls, et al. I've heard it can weigh as much as 50% on a team's final record. THAT was my point.
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[claymore]

your "luck" point, clay. Ask any player/ex, and they'll tell you luck has EVERYTHING to do with the game. Luck=no major injuries/bounce of the ball/weather/timing of schedule/home v away/ref calls, et al. I've heard it can weigh as much as 50% on a team's final record. THAT was my point.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums
Well, I like a team/QB that doesnt have to depend on luck. THat was my point.

[topscribe]

Well, I like a team/QB that doesnt have to depend on luck. THat was my point.

Maybe a team/QB like that will come around someday, Clay. Probably not . . .
I don't recall one in the last 50 years . . . but just maybe . . . http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh256/AZDynamics/Smilies/thdrink.gif

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[LRtagger]

Yes, he gave up Cutler. The going rate was two firsts and a QB.

Now, as we all know, not all firsts are the same. So, the other picks were likely to equalize the first rounders compared to say what Washington or Tampa or other clubs were offering.

However, this is all speculation, so who really knows what was said in the trade talks. I don't.



Yes, it is speculation. The entire debate is speculation.



Yea, but he's old!

Now you are twisting my points to discredit what I'm saying. Old players still hold value, but that value should be considered less than a younger player. Even if said old player is currently better. Teams that have a complete squad, but their best QB is Tavaras Jackson will overpay for a HOF QB that even at 40 years old is easily their best option (plus he is still UNDER CONTRACT - they aren't giving up picks for his services).



Yes, but many NFL experts (that's what we call the talking heads and radio jocks) believe that the Redskins will compete for the NFC East division.

This argument of yours doesn't hold water. The Redskins while horrid last year, are not looked at as a rebuilding project.

Ah I see so ESPN says they can compete so it makes it so. Those same "experts" are also clamoring that the Raiders will finish ahead of the Broncos because they had a decent draft and picked up Jason Campbell.



Again, I would love to see some examples (beyond Cassell) of where 'valuable' free agents were 'locked up' and then traded. I'm not aware of this being common place, but I accept that I could be wrong.

I don't understand why it has to be common place for it to be plausible. There is one example that happened very recently and was carried out by our coach's mentor. I dont see how you can assume it wont happen here.



:confused: I mentioned Cassel, because I was referring to a statement YOU made about Cassel and comparing him to Orton. If you are going to move the target in a discussion/debate, please give me advanced warning. ;)

What? I mentioned Cassel and Campbell, but you chose to ignore Campbell because it didnt flow with your win/loss argument. He led a talented team (on paper) to a 4-12 record and still was worth a 4th round pick.



Cassel isn't a perfect example, because Brady was coming off not only a torn ACL, but also a antibiotic resistant staff infection, which not only pushed back his recovery time table, but for a while there was thought he might have to have another surgery, because if an infection lasts too long, it can effect the integrity of the graffed tendon.

It may not be a perfect example, but it proves reason that it most definitely plausible especially if Orton has a great year but the Broncos still want to move forward without him.


Beyond that, you have been able to give ONE example, Cassel. Beyond, beyond that, you throw out that teams "don't let their top QB walk in FA", but the fact is that happens quite a bit, which is why we wind up with QBs on the free agent market. No, Mannings and the like don't often wind up on the free agent market, but your Orton/Cutler type QBs are on the FA market quite often.

If Cutler/Orton/Campbell/Cassel type QBs are on the market quite often, why do teams give up draft picks to acquire them?


Again, if I'm wrong, and you can provide me with examples where it is routine to 'lock up' valuable players before they are free agents, for the sole purpose of getting trade value, I will concede I am wrong. I just honestly don't believe that happens very often.

It doesnt have to happen often to be a plausible and worthwhile solution for the Broncos.



I was using that as a means of noting how crazy your assertion was without saying it. "The only way he walks is if he sucks"? It just doesn't add up with the reality of the NFL and free agency.

Again, it doesn't have to happen all the time. It happend once just two seasons ago. It is extremely plausible.



Not at the moment, but I don't have time to look at stats. Of the top of my head, I have no idea. All I can say is that you, and some other Broncos fans, seem to hold Kyle Orton in MUCH higher regards in terms of his capability as a starter, than most of the so-called experts around the NFL.

Now, I've heard a lot of talking heads say they don't think Orton has reached his full potential, and 'could' get better, but I've heard none that consider him a top tier QB, or anything close to that.

It doesn't matter what I, you, or talking heads think about Orton. All it takes is ONE NFL GM or coach that needs a QB and thinks Orton is the best available solution. Would it be completely irrational to think that a team might give up a 2nd or 3rd round pick for Orton's services?



Again, then provide examples other than Cassell of QB's being franchised for the sole purpose of trading them and not letting the QB go without compensation in return.

It is a calculated risk. You have to be sure there will be another team on the market that would take on the player and sign them to an extension. It doesn't mean it cant/wont happen. I just cant see any reason that the Broncos are very successful this season with Orton, but decide to move on without him and not receive any compensation. It just wouldnt make sense to me.

[claymore]

Maybe a team/QB like that will come around someday, Clay. Probably not . . .
I don't recall one in the last 50 years . . . but just maybe . . . http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh256/AZDynamics/Smilies/thdrink.gif

-----

We depend on luck for every 3rd down conversion. A little bit of luck i life doesnt hurt, but if you cant live without it... then your effed.

[LRtagger]

Drew Brees.

SD franchised Brees for a season AFTER already signing Rivers to a huge deal.

Brees suffered a serious injury that season. The Chuggers still offered him a $10mil a year deal that was heavy on the backend. Most think so they could do a sign/trade; others think it was because they werent sure how his arm would recover from the injury and wanted protection in case they needed to release/trade him early in the contract - but Brees declined to sign.

They did not franchise him again because they did not want to take on the risk of the huge money they would have to pay him for the single season if his shoulder was not healed. Under those circumstances only did they let him walk.

[claymore]

SD franchised Brees for a season AFTER already signing Rivers to a huge deal.

Brees suffered a serious injury that season. The Chuggers still offered him a $10mil a year deal that was heavy on the backend. Most think so they could do a sign/trade; others think it was because they werent sure how his arm would recover from the injury and wanted protection in case they needed to release/trade him early in the contract - but Brees declined to sign.

They did not franchise him again because they did not want to take on the risk of the huge money they would have to pay him for the single season if his shoulder was not healed. Under those circumstances only did they let him walk.

He was still a FA coming of a good year. I think he got comeback player of the year after that too.

[CoachChaz]

He was still a FA coming of a good year. I think he got comeback player of the year after that too.

FA having a good year in a contract year...that never happens.

As far as Brees goes, I just think his situation (shoulder injury) is what made his case unique. Plus, SD had a back-up plan. If Volek was their only other option...they'd have tried a bit harder to keep Brees.

[claymore]

FA having a good year in a contract year...that never happens.

As far as Brees goes, I just think his situation (shoulder injury) is what made his case unique. Plus, SD had a back-up plan. If Volek was their only other option...they'd have tried a bit harder to keep Brees.

AJ Smith didnt draft Brees, but he drafted Rivers that played into it as well.

If Rivers wasnt there I agree Brees would be too.

THe post asked for an example of a good QB that left as a FA, and Brees was one. They could have gotten a first for him the year before, but they didnt...

[CoachChaz]

AJ Smith didnt draft Brees, but he drafted Rivers that played into it as well.

If Rivers wasnt there I agree Brees would be too.

THe post asked for an example of a good QB that left as a FA, and Brees was one. They could have gotten a first for him the year before, but they didnt...

I understand the example...I just think there are alot of variables that make it an example in the first place.

[LRtagger]

AJ Smith didnt draft Brees, but he drafted Rivers that played into it as well.

If Rivers wasnt there I agree Brees would be too.

THe post asked for an example of a good QB that left as a FA, and Brees was one. They could have gotten a first for him the year before, but they didnt...

Exactly. They could have gotten a 1st for him after they franchised him, but didnt. They didn't franchise him the next year because it would have been too risky to pay him top 5 money if his shoulder didnt recover.

Besides, you only gave one player. You have to give multiple examples in order for it to be proven true.

[Tned]

Yes, it is speculation. The entire debate is speculation.




Now you are twisting my points to discredit what I'm saying. Old players still hold value, but that value should be considered less than a younger player. Even if said old player is currently better. Teams that have a complete squad, but their best QB is Tavaras Jackson will overpay for a HOF QB that even at 40 years old is easily their best option (plus he is still UNDER CONTRACT - they aren't giving up picks for his services).




Ah I see so ESPN says they can compete so it makes it so. Those same "experts" are also clamoring that the Raiders will finish ahead of the Broncos because they had a decent draft and picked up Jason Campbell.




I don't understand why it has to be common place for it to be plausible. There is one example that happened very recently and was carried out by our coach's mentor. I dont see how you can assume it wont happen here.




What? I mentioned Cassel and Campbell, but you chose to ignore Campbell because it didnt flow with your win/loss argument. He led a talented team (on paper) to a 4-12 record and still was worth a 4th round pick.




It may not be a perfect example, but it proves reason that it most definitely plausible especially if Orton has a great year but the Broncos still want to move forward without him.



If Cutler/Orton/Campbell/Cassel type QBs are on the market quite often, why do teams give up draft picks to acquire them?



It doesnt have to happen often to be a plausible and worthwhile solution for the Broncos.




Again, it doesn't have to happen all the time. It happend once just two seasons ago. It is extremely plausible.




It doesn't matter what I, you, or talking heads think about Orton. All it takes is ONE NFL GM or coach that needs a QB and thinks Orton is the best available solution. Would it be completely irrational to think that a team might give up a 2nd or 3rd round pick for Orton's services?




It is a calculated risk. You have to be sure there will be another team on the market that would take on the player and sign them to an extension. It doesn't mean it cant/wont happen. I just cant see any reason that the Broncos are very successful this season with Orton, but decide to move on without him and not receive any compensation. It just wouldnt make sense to me.

You've indicated multiple times in a couple different ways that teams just don't let free agents walk away without compensation and that is your basis for saying the Broncos won't just let Orton walk. The ONLY example you can come up with is Cassel, which from what I understand is the RARE exception, not the rule.

Since you can't provide any other examples, we will just have to agree to disagree on the fact that teams just "don't let free agents walk" without compensation.

FWIW, I hope that you are right and the Broncos get something for Orton, even though he will likelly be a free agent. I think it's EXTREMELY unlikely, but I hope you're right.