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Lonestar
08-13-2010, 04:28 PM
Ben McDaniels charts own course to be Broncos' QB coach
Younger McD on board
By Jeff Legwold
The Denver Post
POSTED: 08/13/2010 01:00:00 AM MDT


Broncos quarterbacks coach Ben McDaniels gives direction to Brady Quinn during Thursday's practice. (John Leyba, The Denver Post )
First came the pause — short, yet still a pause. Then the smile. Then the laugh.

The question was, who is tougher to work for, your dad or your brother? And when Ben McDaniels had gathered himself he said: "Both are enjoyable."

The Broncos' 30-year-old quarterbacks coach is a lot of things. He's the son of a coach — Thom McDaniels, a renowned prep coach in northern Ohio. He's the younger brother of a coach — the Broncos' Josh McDaniels. And he's an NFL position coach trying to make his way in what he calls "a great situation to be a part of."

Ben McDaniels has played quarterback for his dad, been an assistant coach for him and is in his second season on his brother's coaching staff. Family ties bind, but where others see potential for stress in the line between personal and professional, Ben McDaniels said the family always has understood the balance in a competitive world.
"I don't think we've ever seen it interfere with being a family, not at all," Ben said. "We've all spent enough time with each other — we both played for my dad — that I don't think any of us — Josh, me or my dad — have ever spent a lot of time thinking about what might be difficult in it or what people would say. It just was something we look forward to and we always understood beyond that it's always about doing your job to the best of your abilities, that if you didn't do your job, you wouldn't succeed no matter where you were or who you were working with."

Whereas Josh McDaniels found his way onto an NFL coaching staff after one season as a graduate assistant for Nick Saban at Michigan State, Ben McDaniels said he needed to chart his own path.

After finishing up his playing career as a quarterback at Kent State — where he played for former Patriots assistant coach Dean Pees — Ben McDaniels, degree in hand, went to coach receivers at Warren Harding High School for a year. He followed that with two years as a graduate assistant at the University of Minnesota, a time when the team had Laurence Maroney and Marion Barber at running back.
"I think at that point, after Minnesota, I knew I wanted to coach, and I knew Josh was in the league at that point, but I still was really trying to find my own way," Ben said. "So I went back to Ohio, coached another couple of years, and that was good for me, and then really decided I wanted to challenge myself and coach at the highest level I could."

Josh promoted Ben from an offensive assistant to quarterbacks coach in January, saying "he earned it." Since then, Ben's duties have included tutoring Tim Tebow, as the Broncos have gone about the business of working on the first-round selection's throwing mechanics.

Tebow has called the younger McDaniels "very passionate."

"This was a no-brainer for me, and I was excited at every level for the opportunities," Ben said. "We are from the same family, we were raised the same way, so I'm sure we share some of our personality traits and how we do things. But we are individuals too. I just want to be as good a coach as I can possibly be."

Jeff Legwold: 303-954-2359 or jlegwold@denverpost.com

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_15764007?source=rsssimplepiebroncos

arapaho2
08-13-2010, 06:14 PM
does he realize he would still be coaching in highschool as an assistant if his brother didnt pity him?

thats really charting his own course:confused:

BroncoWave
08-13-2010, 06:17 PM
does he realize he would still be coaching in highschool as an assistant if his brother didnt pity him?

thats really charting his own course:confused:

Oh really now? You have absolutely ZERO way of knowing that.

But please, humor me. Tell me precisely what his flaws are as a coach that would make him more suited to coach HS than in the NFL. Or you could just admit that you are just pulling shit our of your ass to bash McDaniels in any way you can.

dogfish
08-13-2010, 06:23 PM
claymore in 3. . . 2. . . 1. . .

nevcraw
08-13-2010, 06:27 PM
Cat fight!!

claymore
08-13-2010, 07:49 PM
Ben McDaniels is completley qualified to Coach 3 yard bubble screens.

Bosco
08-13-2010, 09:21 PM
does he realize he would still be coaching in highschool as an assistant if his brother didnt pity him?

thats really charting his own course:confused:

The same could be said for Jeremy Bates, Kyle Shanahan, Lane Kiffin and God knows how many others.

Lonestar
08-13-2010, 09:30 PM
The same could be said for Jeremy Bates, Kyle Shanahan, Lane Kiffin and God knows how many others.

Add Saban, Nolan,the ryans, the scouting TEAM we used to have to the list.

I just do not understand why all the hate for Josh.
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dogfish
08-13-2010, 09:44 PM
Ben McDaniels is completley qualified to Coach 3 yard bubble screens.

what about button hooks?

Bosco
08-13-2010, 10:37 PM
Add Saban, Nolan,the ryans, the scouting TEAM we used to have to the list.

Yep, those guys too.

arapaho2
08-15-2010, 05:37 PM
The same could be said for Jeremy Bates, Kyle Shanahan, Lane Kiffin and God knows how many others.



no it couldnt...because as far as i know none of them has a story highlighting them " charting their own course"... which is the topic here

Bosco
08-17-2010, 03:51 PM
no it couldnt...because as far as i know none of them has a story highlighting them " charting their own course"... which is the topic here

So your issue is a little snippet of words. Gotcha.

arapaho2
08-17-2010, 04:27 PM
So your issue is a little snippet of words. Gotcha.


if your gonna list examples ...at least list like examples

the story is about a coach ...quote " charting his own course"

when its almost a given if his brother had not pulled him from the obscure high school assistant coach ranks.....he'd still be there charting his own course

you used kyle as a example

kyle wasnt picked up from being a high school assistant right to the nfl
he worked a year in the college ranks as an assistant before gruden gave him a job as a assistant for two seasons before kubs hired him as wr coach, then the following year as qbs coach and finaly two seasons as OC

kyle worked his way up...his dad didnt hire him from nowhere

Denver Native (Carol)
08-17-2010, 04:47 PM
kyle wasnt picked up from being a high school assistant right to the nfl

NEITHER WAS BEN :tsk:

http://www.denverbroncos.com/team/coaches/Ben-McDaniels/de2ca58f-d46e-4786-b6be-04fe516b282c

McDaniels worked for the University of Minnesota as a graduate assistant under Head Coach Glen Mason from 2004-05. The Golden Gophers posted a 7-5 record and earned a berth in the Music City Bowl during each of those two seasons with McDaniels working with the wide receivers in 2004 and the defensive backs in 2005.

While at Minnesota in 2005, McDaniels was part of its team that recaptured the “Little Brown Jug” with a victory over the University of Michigan. The last-second road win marked the Golden Gophers’ first victory against Michigan since 1986 in one of college football’s oldest rivalries.

G_Money
08-17-2010, 04:52 PM
Nepotism is a time-honored sports phenomenon. Guys get drafted because their brothers/fathers/uncles/cousins were good and they've got good genes. The sons/brothers/nephews/cousins of coaches get prepped from an early age on film study, how to run practices, etc and have a leg up on those who didn't.

Just accept it. Nepotism isn't inherently bad. Shanahan used to give jobs to all his friends. The problem was they kinda sucked.

Ben's here now. What he has to do going forward is not suck.

~G

arapaho2
08-17-2010, 05:19 PM
NEITHER WAS BEN :tsk:

http://www.denverbroncos.com/team/coaches/Ben-McDaniels/de2ca58f-d46e-4786-b6be-04fe516b282c

McDaniels worked for the University of Minnesota as a graduate assistant under Head Coach Glen Mason from 2004-05. The Golden Gophers posted a 7-5 record and earned a berth in the Music City Bowl during each of those two seasons with McDaniels working with the wide receivers in 2004 and the defensive backs in 2005.

While at Minnesota in 2005, McDaniels was part of its team that recaptured the “Little Brown Jug” with a victory over the University of Michigan. The last-second road win marked the Golden Gophers’ first victory against Michigan since 1986 in one of college football’s oldest rivalries.


ben coached two yrs as a graduate assistant...

then back to the high school ranks...meaning no paid position as a assistant coach was offered...kyle went from GA to a nfl assistant coach

and yes ben was picked up straight from a high school coaching job into the nfl...matter of fact he was an assistant under another relative... his father

it doesnt have to offend you all so much...but the fact is.... far from "charting his own course" ben would in all likelyhood still be coaching assistant under his father if his brother didnt elevate him tenfold

Bosco
08-17-2010, 05:27 PM
They are "like examples". They all used family connections to get their foot in the door. Josh and Kyle's career paths are strikingly similar to date.

Josh - Used his dad's friendship with Nick Saban to get a graduate assistant position on his staff. Parlayed Saban's friendship with Belichick into a similar role with the Patriots.

Kyle - Used his dad's friendship with Karl Dorrell (former receivers coach here in Denver) to get a GA spot on UCLA's staff and then moved on to a job in the pros with another friend of his dad's, Jon Gruden.

Jeremy Bates and Ben McDaniels also followed pretty similar career paths. They were both Division I quarterbacks in college and didn't get into the coaching ranks for a couple years after they graduated. The only difference is that Jeremy started out in the pros where his dad was a highly respected DC while Ben coached high school football before taking a GA role at Minnesota where he was going to school at the time.

Again, this really isn't uncommon in football or life in general.

Bosco
08-17-2010, 05:31 PM
ben would in all likelyhood still be coaching assistant under his father if his brother didnt elevate him tenfold

And like I said, so would Kyle Shanahan, Jeremy Bates, and Lane Kiffin.

arapaho2
08-17-2010, 05:46 PM
They are "like examples". They all used family connections to get their foot in the door. Josh and Kyle's career paths are strikingly similar to date.

Josh - Used his dad's friendship with Nick Saban to get a graduate assistant position on his staff. Parlayed Saban's friendship with Belichick into a similar role with the Patriots.

Kyle - Used his dad's friendship with Karl Dorrell (former receivers coach here in Denver) to get a GA spot on UCLA's staff and then moved on to a job in the pros with another friend of his dad's, Jon Gruden.

Jeremy Bates and Ben McDaniels also followed pretty similar career paths. They were both Division I quarterbacks in college and didn't get into the coaching ranks for a couple years after they graduated. The only difference is that Jeremy started out in the pros where his dad was a highly respected DC while Ben coached high school football before taking a GA role at Minnesota where he was going to school at the time.

Again, this really isn't uncommon in football or life in general.


i agree josh and kyles history is common

however bens isnt ....

and again when your brother yanks you out of nowhere...from a HS assistant..straight to the pros...thats hardly "charting your own course"

its more of " thank God my brother is the head coach of a professional team or i'd be stuck in ohio coaching HS as my career"

i would say josh is a much better exapmple of a prospective coach charting his own path

arapaho2
08-17-2010, 05:59 PM
And like I said, so would Kyle Shanahan, Jeremy Bates, and Lane Kiffin.


kyles brother never hired him? gruden did

bates started as a assistant ...also under gruden...for the bucs....his
father coached defense for the fins

kiffin started in the college ranks for schools like fresno..colo..usc a year with the jags...8 years total in college (1 pro) before getting the raiders job...all while his father coached in tampa


i fail to see how any of the three were pulled from nowhere straight into the pros by a sibling or parent???

Bosco
08-17-2010, 06:21 PM
kyles brother never hired him? gruden did

bates started as a assistant ...also under gruden...for the bucs....his
father coached defense for the fins

kiffin started in the college ranks for schools like fresno..colo..usc a year with the jags...8 years total in college (1 pro) before getting the raiders job...all while his father coached in tampa


i fail to see how any of the three were pulled from nowhere straight into the pros by a sibling or parent???

The point is all of them got breaks in life thanks to being part of football families. As for Ben, he put in his time as a graduate assistant. Sure, he went back into the high school ranks after that, but so what? When Josh hired him he did another stint as an offensive assistant before getting bumped up to quarterbacks coach where he is effectively another assistant to Josh and Mike McCoy.

arapaho2
08-18-2010, 10:47 AM
The point is all of them got breaks in life thanks to being part of football families. As for Ben, he put in his time as a graduate assistant. Sure, he went back into the high school ranks after that, but so what? When Josh hired him he did another stint as an offensive assistant before getting bumped up to quarterbacks coach where he is effectively another assistant to Josh and Mike McCoy.


yes they probably got a break because they were from a known coaching family..true

but none were just handed a coaching job from outa nowhere as ben was
they all were given a chance and worked their way up

they all started as assistants...moved up...worked hard and made a name for themselfs..they didnt use their name or have thier fathers pull them from the high school ranks

do you think kyle would be coaching pros, or college somewhere if his dad didnt hire him?...absalutly

kiffen?...yes

bates?...more than likely

ben mcdanials?....nope!! he'd still be coaching for his fathers highschool team

bens

Mike
08-18-2010, 10:48 AM
Is there anything people won't whine about? :rolleyes:

arapaho2
08-18-2010, 11:42 AM
are you whining about people ?

claymore
08-18-2010, 11:53 AM
Ben McDaniels will save Tebows career.

The Glue Factory
08-18-2010, 11:56 AM
are you whining about people ?

I think they're whining about what us mere mortals call networking. Ordinary people day in and day out use their contacts to get jobs. Most, if not all, job change coaching firms teach networking as the way to get a job at a company. Sometimes you even have a position created for you by networking.

I just don't understand why so many people whine about it at the Broncos when it hasn't shown itself to be a bad thing (like it seemed to be with Shanahan.)

Mike
08-18-2010, 12:00 PM
are you whining about people ?

Nope, simply making an observation.

arapaho2
08-18-2010, 12:17 PM
Nope, simply making an observation.


as am i, about ben

Denver Native (Carol)
08-18-2010, 12:21 PM
yes they probably got a break because they were from a known coaching family..true

but none were just handed a coaching job from outa nowhere as ben was
they all were given a chance and worked their way up

they all started as assistants...moved up...worked hard and made a name for themselfs..they didnt use their name or have thier fathers pull them from the high school ranks

do you think kyle would be coaching pros, or college somewhere if his dad didnt hire him?...absalutly

kiffen?...yes

bates?...more than likely

ben mcdanials?....nope!! he'd still be coaching for his fathers highschool team

bens

Who cares - we all know that Coach McD has much more sayso when it comes to the QB's at this time than Ben does. What's wrong with Coach McD giving his brother a break??????????

arapaho2
08-18-2010, 12:22 PM
I think they're whining about what us mere mortals call networking. Ordinary people day in and day out use their contacts to get jobs. Most, if not all, job change coaching firms teach networking as the way to get a job at a company. Sometimes you even have a position created for you by networking.

I just don't understand why so many people whine about it at the Broncos when it hasn't shown itself to be a bad thing (like it seemed to be with Shanahan.)


again whos whining about it...its a simple statment about ben "charting his own course" that got a bunch of peoples granny panties in a knot

i am simply saying i think the only reason he is coaching in the pros and not still a assistant HS coach is because of his brother ...thats a far cry from charting your own course

if people take exception to that...cant help them

never said he might not become a capable coach or an asset

arapaho2
08-18-2010, 12:25 PM
Who cares - we all know that Coach McD has much more sayso when it comes to the QB's at this time than Ben does. What's wrong with Coach McD giving his brother a break??????????


did i say there was something wrong with it carol?
did i say he's a suck coach who shouldnt be here?

no i only said i wouldnt call the fact he is only coaching in the pros because his brother hired him "charting his own course"

now if you cant handle that opinion...your a little to sensitive

Denver Native (Carol)
08-18-2010, 12:36 PM
did i say there was something wrong with it carol?
did i say he's a suck coach who shouldnt be here?

no i only said i wouldnt call the fact he is only coaching in the pros because his brother hired him "charting his own course"

now if you cant handle that opinion...your a little to sensitive

The following is from the article - funny how people get different things out of Ben stating "he needed to chart his own path"!!!!

Whereas Josh McDaniels found his way onto an NFL coaching staff after one season as a graduate assistant for Nick Saban at Michigan State, Ben McDaniels said he needed to chart his own path.

After finishing up his playing career as a quarterback at Kent State — where he played for former Patriots assistant coach Dean Pees — Ben McDaniels, degree in hand, went to coach receivers at Warren Harding High School for a year. He followed that with two years as a graduate assistant at the University of Minnesota, a time when the team had Laurence Maroney and Marion Barber at running back.
"I think at that point, after Minnesota, I knew I wanted to coach, and I knew Josh was in the league at that point, but I still was really trying to find my own way," Ben said. "So I went back to Ohio, coached another couple of years, and that was good for me, and then really decided I wanted to challenge myself and coach at the highest level I could."

claymore
08-18-2010, 12:40 PM
Who cares - we all know that Coach McD has much more sayso when it comes to the QB's at this time than Ben does. What's wrong with Coach McD giving his brother a break??????????

McDaniels cant do it all.

We have a puppet OC, puppet QB coach, an CFL line coach, and a crappy RB coach. I would think he would try... TRY to hire someone somewhat qualified to ease his responsibilities on one individual position, so he would have more overall time to devote to the TEAM.

We have far more unknowns and question marks than we have known positives. Why add more unknowns? Why not add some positives. Its like this team is being ran by the US government.

Thats my issue.

Bosco
08-18-2010, 01:43 PM
yes they probably got a break because they were from a known coaching family..true

but none were just handed a coaching job from outa nowhere as ben was
they all were given a chance and worked their way up

they all started as assistants...moved up...worked hard and made a name for themselfs..they didnt use their name or have thier fathers pull them from the high school ranks

do you think kyle would be coaching pros, or college somewhere if his dad didnt hire him?...absalutly

kiffen?...yes

bates?...more than likely

ben mcdanials?....nope!! he'd still be coaching for his fathers highschool team

bens

I'm not seeing where Ben was just handed a job he was unqualified for. He worked as a graduate assistant at a Big 10 school and then ended up back in the elite high school ranks for a couple years until his brother brought him up to be an offensive assistant on Denver's staff. That's the same path, family connections included, that Kyle Shanahan took to the NFL minus the additional experience in the high school ranks.



McDaniels cant do it all.

We have a puppet OC, puppet QB coach, an CFL line coach, and a crappy RB coach. I would think he would try... TRY to hire someone somewhat qualified to ease his responsibilities on one individual position, so he would have more overall time to devote to the TEAM.

- Our OC is Mike McCoy. He job is very much like what Kubiak did in the early Shanahan days. He handles alot of the game-planning duties during the week, assists with the quarterback coaching and on gameday is essentially the middle man between the play caller (Josh) and the assistants watching the game from the booth.

- Ben McDaniels is the QB coach. He knows how Josh trains his quarterbacks because he learned the say way from his father. This means that Josh can delegate specific tasks to Ben while he is free to focus on other parts of the line.

- Clancy Barone is our OL coach. The "CFL coach" you're talking about is Bob Wylie. He is Barone's assistant and to go along with his time in the CFL, he also has 15 years of NFL experience.

- Please explain why Eric Studesville is a "crappy" RB coach.

The Glue Factory
08-18-2010, 02:01 PM
again whos whining about it...its a simple statment about ben "charting his own course" that got a bunch of peoples granny panties in a knot

i am simply saying i think the only reason he is coaching in the pros and not still a assistant HS coach is because of his brother ...thats a far cry from charting your own course

if people take exception to that...cant help them

never said he might not become a capable coach or an asset

And I didn't say you were making a deal about it. Just taking the opportunity to put my 2 cents in by responding to your question. :D

He could very well be in HS. Then again he may have moved to a college position somewhere as well. It's hard to say what would have happened. I don't have a problem with it as long as it doesn't hurt the team (as it seemed to do with Shanahan.)

The Glue Factory
08-18-2010, 02:07 PM
McDaniels cant do it all.
We have far more unknowns and question marks than we have known positives. Why add more unknowns?

So you'd rather the knowns of Shanahan and Coyer? Or can we agree that the unkowns of McDaniels and his decisions are better than the knowns of the former?

claymore
08-18-2010, 02:55 PM
I'm not seeing where Ben was just handed a job he was unqualified for. He worked as a graduate assistant at a Big 10 school and then ended up back in the elite high school ranks for a couple years until his brother brought him up to be an offensive assistant on Denver's staff. That's the same path, family connections included, that Kyle Shanahan took to the NFL minus the additional experience in the high school ranks.




- Our OC is Mike McCoy. He job is very much like what Kubiak did in the early Shanahan days. He handles alot of the game-planning duties during the week, assists with the quarterback coaching and on gameday is essentially the middle man between the play caller (Josh) and the assistants watching the game from the booth.

- Ben McDaniels is the QB coach. He knows how Josh trains his quarterbacks because he learned the say way from his father. This means that Josh can delegate specific tasks to Ben while he is free to focus on other parts of the line.

- Clancy Barone is our OL coach. The "CFL coach" you're talking about is Bob Wylie. He is Barone's assistant and to go along with his time in the CFL, he also has 15 years of NFL experience.

- Please explain why Eric Studesville is a "crappy" RB coach.

I missed the Barone promotion.

Our RB coach is crappy because Tiki Barbers fumbles got worse during his tenure, and got better when he left. JMO.

No faith in the guy.

claymore
08-18-2010, 02:58 PM
So you'd rather the knowns of Shanahan and Coyer? Or can we agree that the unkowns of McDaniels and his decisions are better than the knowns of the former?

Neither of those situations are Ideal. But I would most definitley have Shanahan over McD.

slim
08-18-2010, 03:01 PM
Hi Clay.

The Glue Factory
08-18-2010, 03:54 PM
Neither of those situations are Ideal. But I would most definitley have Shanahan over McD.

:smack:

You'd rather the Shanahan that drafted so much defensive talent that when all but two of the starters were cut not a one is a starter in the NFL after 2 years? The same Shanahan who endorsed a DC that presided over one of the worst late season collapses by an NFL team in, oh gee, the HISTORY of the NFL.

I'll take our current situation over our previous any day.

claymore
08-18-2010, 04:00 PM
:smack:

You'd rather the Shanahan that drafted so much defensive talent that when all but two of the starters were cut not a one is a starter in the NFL after 2 years? The same Shanahan who endorsed a DC that presided over one of the worst late season collapses by an NFL team in, oh gee, the HISTORY of the NFL.

I'll take our current situation over our previous any day.

I cant think of a single McD pick that is a lock for a roster spot in a couple years. His drafts look to be worse, and he is an unproven coach to boot.

Give me Mikey.

Bosco
08-18-2010, 04:30 PM
Our RB coach is crappy because Tiki Barbers fumbles got worse during his tenure, and got better when he left. JMO.

No faith in the guy.

You're incorrect though. While the sheer number of fumbles went up, so did Tiki's workload. Here are the ratio breakdowns (touches between fumbles). The numbers in orange are withe Studesville on staff.

1999 - 25.6
2000 - 31.4
2001 - 29.75
2002 - 41.44
2003 - 38.55

As you can see, there was a dip there in Studesville's first year but then the numbers increased significantly in the 2nd and 3rd years and that trend continued until the end of Barber's career. He's also done pretty well with Willis McGahee, Ron Dayne, Marshawn Lynch and Fred Jackson.

All in all, the guy has built a very impressive resume in less than a decade's worth of work.

Lonestar
08-18-2010, 04:33 PM
You're incorrect though. While the sheer number of fumbles went up, so did Tiki's workload. Here are the ratio breakdowns (touches between fumbles). The numbers is orange are withe Studesville on staff.

1999 - 25.6
2000 - 31.4
2001 - 29.75
2002 - 41.44
2003 - 38.55

As you can see, there was a dip there in Studesville's first year but then the numbers increased significantly in the 2nd and 3rd years and that trend continued until the end of Barber's career. He's also done pretty well with Willis McGahee, Ron Dayne, Marshawn Lynch and Fred Jackson.

All in all, the guy has built a very impressive resume in less than a decade's worth of work.

why would we want someone that can actually coach on the staff .. it is beyond my belief. :rofl:

arapaho2
08-18-2010, 04:48 PM
:smack:

You'd rather the Shanahan that drafted so much defensive talent that when all but two of the starters were cut not a one is a starter in the NFL after 2 years? The same Shanahan who endorsed a DC that presided over one of the worst late season collapses by an NFL team in, oh gee, the HISTORY of the NFL.

I'll take our current situation over our previous any day.


weird how that is, seeing that 08-09 we ended up 8-8 and

in week 11 we were

08.....6-4....under shanny

09.....6-4....under josh

going into the stretch we were

7-5 in 08 and finished 1-3 under shanny

8-4 in 09 and finished 0-4 under josh

i'd kinda like to aurgue the point josh losing the last 4 games was a bigger late season collapse than shannys 1-3

also considering the fact josh started off 6-0 and finished 2-8

joshes collapse was much bigger, shannys collapse was more highlighted because the bolts sucked so bad also allowing the broncos to lose the west title in the last game

arapaho2
08-18-2010, 04:50 PM
why would we want someone that can actually coach on the staff .. it is beyond my belief. :rofl:


i guess thats why josh allowed a guy widely considered the best rbs coach in the game to walk huh

The Glue Factory
08-18-2010, 08:52 PM
joshes collapse was much bigger, shannys collapse was more highlighted because the bolts sucked so bad also allowing the broncos to lose the west title in the last game

In simple numerical terms yes, but Shanny had a 3 game lead with three games to go in the season. All he had to do was win just one coughbuffalocough. Josh didn't have such a strong spot by that time of the season last year.

Lonestar
08-18-2010, 09:18 PM
i guess thats why josh allowed a guy widely considered the best rbs coach in the game to walk huh

I think you have it all wrong..

Josh allowed the best ZBS coaches to walk since that seemed to be all they knew to teach.

Since we are not running the ZBS and they did not know how to teach PBS he got someone who did.

Amazing concept round hole round peg, square hole square peg.

Bosco
08-18-2010, 09:37 PM
i guess thats why josh allowed a guy widely considered the best rbs coach in the game to walk huh

Not quite.

Josh denied Shanahan's request to interview Turner as his new running bakcs coach. Shanahan then offered Turner a promotion to Assistant Head Coach, and by league rules, Josh could do nothing to stop him from taking that job.

Denver Native (Carol)
08-18-2010, 09:42 PM
Not quite.

Josh denied Shanahan's request to interview Turner as his new running bakcs coach. Shanahan then offered Turner a promotion to Assistant Head Coach, and by league rules, Josh could do nothing to stop him from taking that job.

Not so quick, there is no reason Josh could not have tied up Turner, and held him hostage in the equipment room - only letting him out for practice and game days.

dogfish
08-18-2010, 10:23 PM
good lord, even carol's getting sarcastic. . . we REALLY need the freakin' season to start!


:elefant::defense:

frauschieze
08-19-2010, 12:22 AM
You're incorrect though. While the sheer number of fumbles went up, so did Tiki's workload. Here are the ratio breakdowns (touches between fumbles). The numbers in orange are withe Studesville on staff.

1999 - 25.6
2000 - 31.4
2001 - 29.75
2002 - 41.44
2003 - 38.55

As you can see, there was a dip there in Studesville's first year but then the numbers increased significantly in the 2nd and 3rd years and that trend continued until the end of Barber's career. He's also done pretty well with Willis McGahee, Ron Dayne, Marshawn Lynch and Fred Jackson.

All in all, the guy has built a very impressive resume in less than a decade's worth of work.

Curious.....where'd you pull your numbers from and how did you calculate touches between fumbles? I have been unable to recreate your results.

Using numbers from Pro-Football Reference (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BarbTi00.htm) to calculate percentage of carries fumbled over Tiki's career, as well as number of fumbles per game:


Year Carries Fumbles F/C Games F/G
1997 136 3 2.206% 12 0.25
1998 52 1 1.923% 16 0.06
1999 62 5 8.065% 16 0.31
2000 213 9 4.225% 16 0.56
2001 166 8 4.819% 14 0.57
2002 304 9 2.961% 16 0.56
2003 278 9 3.237% 16 0.56
2004 322 5 1.553% 16 0.31
2005 357 1 0.280% 16 0.06
2006 327 3 0.917% 16 0.19

I think Clay's point of Tiki's production improving after Studesville left is pretty well proven by the numbers here. There was no difference in the number of fumbles per game under Studes. Even fumbles per carry shows a larger improvement from Tiki's best year under Studes to the worst year after Studes, than from the year prior to Studes' arrival and his best year under Studes.

That sounds convoluted, but I hope it makes sense. I would theorize that the longer one plays in the league, the better one gets at ball protection, but I've not looked at any other RB's stats for comparison.

Raw percentage numbers don't appear to support your assertion.

dogfish
08-19-2010, 12:44 AM
either way, calculating whether tiki barber's fumbles increased or declined under any particular RB coach really doesn't do much towards determing if the guy is a good coach or not. . . particularly if he wasn't the coach that developed tiki. . .

a lot of position coaches' reputation is typically just that-- their performance isn't particularly simple to quantify, especially if you're fond of accuracy. . . you can make an exception for a guy like bobby turner, who helped draft and develop half a dozen RBs who considerably out-performed their draft slot-- now there's a guy you KNOW is damn good. . .

i want to see whether knowshon improves this year-- that should tell us what we need to know about studesville. . .

i do think clay's general point is more or less correct, although as usual he also gives it the most anti-mcdaniels slant possible. . . i sometimes have to bitch at him about it, but i mostly try to just ignore it and address his comments at face value. . .

i think he's exaggerating, but it's certainly not like mcD has put together a rockstar staff on that side of the ball, by any stretch of the imagination. . . i'd say the contrast to the name recognition and experience level of the defensive coaching staff (especially if you count nolan) is fairly marked. . .

it certainly looks like mcdaniels wants to have all the juice on that side of the ball, so to speak. . . which isn't all that surprising, even if it makes clay nuts. . . you can spin it that it's a good thing, because he's the boy wonder and he's brought in a group of fresh young minds to sop up his residual genius and grow together the way shanahan's staff did in the super bowl era. . .

or you can spin it that he's a paranoid, insecure little dictator who can't bear any opposition to his will, and intentionally brings in sycophants and yes-men-- and his relatives who need jobs. . .

i'm guessing the reality is somewhere in between. . . i'd like to believe the guy is bright enough to not sabotage himself, but i also think anyone who considers him egoless and entirely pure of motive may be kidding themselves a little bit. . .

Bosco
08-19-2010, 02:13 AM
Frauschieze, I pulled my numbers from Pro Football Reference as well. The discrepancy is that I used touches (carries and receptions) to come up with my numbers. You only only factored in carries, so obviously the numbers don't jive.

frauschieze
08-19-2010, 08:15 AM
Frauschieze, I pulled my numbers from Pro Football Reference as well. The discrepancy is that I used touches (carries and receptions) to come up with my numbers. You only only factored in carries, so obviously the numbers don't jive.

Ah. That would make sense. Curse my ability to read at times. :)

Updated stats to include your touches/fumble and fumbles/touch (fumbles per game did not change):


Year Carries Recp Fumbles F/T T/F Games F/G
1997 136 34 3 1.765% 56.67 12 0.25
1998 52 42 1 1.064% 94.00 16 0.06
1999 62 66 5 3.906% 25.60 16 0.31
2000 213 70 9 3.180% 31.44 16 0.56
2001 166 72 8 3.361% 29.75 14 0.57
2002 304 69 9 2.413% 41.44 16 0.56
2003 278 69 9 2.594% 38.56 16 0.56
2004 322 52 5 1.337% 74.80 16 0.31
2005 357 54 1 0.243% 411.00 16 0.06
2006 327 58 3 0.779% 128.33 16 0.19

GEM
08-19-2010, 09:12 AM
I guess I'm not understanding why everyone jumped Arapaho in the first place. His assertion that the wording of the article is incorrect is very correct. He's not saying that Ben can't make himself a name while here, but that he really did not lay his own road. His brother brought him in and gave him the first helping hand into the NFL. He didn't say there was anything wrong with it, just that the wording is incorrect.

I'm guessing that everyone took it as Arapaho once again being negative. Maybe it turned into that, but it wasn't his original point.

arapaho2
08-19-2010, 09:45 AM
In simple numerical terms yes, but Shanny had a 3 game lead with three games to go in the season. All he had to do was win just one coughbuffalocough. Josh didn't have such a strong spot by that time of the season last year.


and again..the image of a bigger collapse was due to what?

thats right the horrible 8-8 bolt season and nothing more. had the bolts been a 13-3 team like last year,

the season would not have been much talked about

in 08 the bolts started 3-3...and finished 5-5...thats why us loseing the last three games was so highlighted...we had the title at grasp

in 09 the bolts started 3-3 just as they did in 08..BUT THEY FINISHED ON A 10 GAME WIN STREAK

joshes collapse was every bit as big if not bigger, shannys was talked about more because the bolts horrid season gave us a chance, we didnt have a chance last year after week ten

arapaho2
08-19-2010, 09:49 AM
Not quite.

Josh denied Shanahan's request to interview Turner as his new running bakcs coach. Shanahan then offered Turner a promotion to Assistant Head Coach, and by league rules, Josh could do nothing to stop him from taking that job.


not so......... josh could have gave turner the same title and theres nothing shanny could have done



Bobby Turner has been named the new assistant head coach/running backs for the Washington Redskins, the Redskins announced Thursday (http://www.redskins.com/gen/articles/Redskins_Hire_Turner_As_Running_Backs_Coach_100810 .jsp).

arapaho2
08-19-2010, 09:52 AM
I guess I'm not understanding why everyone jumped Arapaho in the first place. His assertion that the wording of the article is incorrect is very correct. He's not saying that Ben can't make himself a name while here, but that he really did not lay his own road. His brother brought him in and gave him the first helping hand into the NFL. He didn't say there was anything wrong with it, just that the wording is incorrect.

I'm guessing that everyone took it as Arapaho once again being negative. Maybe it turned into that, but it wasn't his original point.

wait ...why do you say im negative..............im a realist
and if looking at my team in a rational manner appears negative, i cant help that

but yeah your right i wasnt condemming ben...just commenting on the headline.....some people are just to uptight around here

GEM
08-19-2010, 09:59 AM
wait ...why do you say im negative..............im a realist
and if looking at my team in a rational manner appears negative, i cant help that

but yeah your right i wasnt condemming ben...just commenting on the headline.....some people are just to uptight around here

You say tomatooooo and I say tomaaaato. You see it as realist, I see it as negative. It's just a difference of opinions, and you have every right to yours. We just see things in a different light, and I'm perfectly ok with that. You're still my buddy and I have no issue with it. ;)

arapaho2
08-19-2010, 10:45 AM
You say tomatooooo and I say tomaaaato. You see it as realist, I see it as negative. It's just a difference of opinions, and you have every right to yours. We just see things in a different light, and I'm perfectly ok with that. You're still my buddy and I have no issue with it. ;)


no i say evil red fruit of the devil.........hate tomatoes

wait was that negative:confused:

The Glue Factory
08-19-2010, 11:19 AM
and again..the image of a bigger collapse was due to what?

thats right the horrible 8-8 bolt season and nothing more. had the bolts been a 13-3 team like last year,

the season would not have been much talked about

in 08 the bolts started 3-3...and finished 5-5...thats why us loseing the last three games was so highlighted...we had the title at grasp

in 09 the bolts started 3-3 just as they did in 08..BUT THEY FINISHED ON A 10 GAME WIN STREAK

joshes collapse was every bit as big if not bigger, shannys was talked about more because the bolts horrid season gave us a chance, we didnt have a chance last year after week ten


I'm looking from a historical perspective in which a division leader having a 3 game lead in the division with 3 games left in the season, historically has won the division (until Shanahan pulls a lame duck out against the Bills and can't manage to beat a mediocre team at home!)

But as I said, taking history out of the argument, McDaniels has the larger season ending crash. But other numbers to consider are 0 vs 12 which are the numbers of years as HC for McD and Shanahan, as well as the schedule of 2008 vs 2009.

Chief among the considerations between the two (at least to me) is that Shanahan was well established, his scheme was well known by the players. He was just tweaking to get the right player at the right position to make a playoff run (paraphrasing his own words.) Whereas McDaniels came with a whole new scheme and nearly a teamload of new players that didn't know each other let alone the scheme. In the end I would expect the bigger collapse to happen in such a year as 2009. Shanahan should not have had a 3 game losing streak to lose the division after leading it all season long.

Lonestar
08-19-2010, 11:47 AM
That was a very logical response. That will be very hard if not impossible to refute. LOGICALLY that is. :salute:
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

Ravage!!!
08-19-2010, 12:00 PM
I'm looking from a historical perspective in which a division leader having a 3 game lead in the division with 3 games left in the season, historically has won the division (until Shanahan pulls a lame duck out against the Bills and can't manage to beat a mediocre team at home!)

But as I said, taking history out of the argument, McDaniels has the larger season ending crash. But other numbers to consider are 0 vs 12 which are the numbers of years as HC for McD and Shanahan, as well as the schedule of 2008 vs 2009.

Chief among the considerations between the two (at least to me) is that Shanahan was well established, his scheme was well known by the players. He was just tweaking to get the right player at the right position to make a playoff run (paraphrasing his own words.) Whereas McDaniels came with a whole new scheme and nearly a teamload of new players that didn't know each other let alone the scheme. In the end I would expect the bigger collapse to happen in such a year as 2009. Shanahan should not have had a 3 game losing streak to lose the division after leading it all season long.

Of course he/we shouldn't have. Neither should McD lose 8 of 10 and have the biggest collapse in Denver history. How many teams have had a 6-0 start and STILL miss the playoffs?

There is no reason to try and defend last years collapse with another coaches collapse. McD chose his players. He chose his system. He brought in the guys "he" wanted and moved up into the draft to get "his" guys. No one was giving him the "new coach" and "new system" excuse when he was pumping his fist after winning a game..... lets not do it now when he proved to have just as much of a collapse as ANYONE has.

Bosco
08-19-2010, 01:47 PM
not so......... josh could have gave turner the same title and theres nothing shanny could have done

That assumes Turner would have taken the promotion though. Coaches don't get to arbitrarily change the job titles of their assistants.

Either way, I can see why Josh would decide against that. Rather than hand out a token promotion and the pay raise that comes with it, he chose to let Turner walk and replaced him with a younger, cheaper, similarly talented coach who is familiar with what he wants to run. If/when Studesville wants to walk, he'll probably do the same thing except with an in house replacement.

It's the smart management that he learned from his mentor.

Lonestar
08-19-2010, 03:04 PM
That assumes Turner would have taken the promotion though. Coaches don't get to arbitrarily change the job titles of their assistants.

Either way, I can see why Josh would decide against that. Rather than hand out a token promotion and the pay raise that comes with it, he chose to let Turner walk and replaced him with a younger, cheaper, similarly talented coach who is familiar with what he wants to run. If/when Studesville wants to walk, he'll probably do the same thing except with an in house replacement.

It's the smart management that he learned from his mentor.


there you go thinking again, :salute:

The Glue Factory
08-19-2010, 03:28 PM
Of course he/we shouldn't have. Neither should McD lose 8 of 10 and have the biggest collapse in Denver history. How many teams have had a 6-0 start and STILL miss the playoffs?

There is no reason to try and defend last years collapse with another coaches collapse. McD chose his players. He chose his system. He brought in the guys "he" wanted and moved up into the draft to get "his" guys. No one was giving him the "new coach" and "new system" excuse when he was pumping his fist after winning a game..... lets not do it now when he proved to have just as much of a collapse as ANYONE has.

Who's defending anything? I just explained why I thought Shanny's collapse was worse than McD's and that I would be less surprised by McD's collapse given each of the situations. I think both were avoidable with wins that could have sent us to the playoffs in each year. Buffalo for Shanny and Indy & Philly for McD.

arapaho2
08-19-2010, 03:46 PM
That assumes Turner would have taken the promotion though. Coaches don't get to arbitrarily change the job titles of their assistants.

Either way, I can see why Josh would decide against that. Rather than hand out a token promotion and the pay raise that comes with it, he chose to let Turner walk and replaced him with a younger, cheaper, similarly talented coach who is familiar with what he wants to run. If/when Studesville wants to walk, he'll probably do the same thing except with an in house replacement.

It's the smart management that he learned from his mentor.


i believe if josh had offered the same title he could control whether turner left or not...so if he offered the same title in name only as shanny (something shanny was known to do) did...then turner couldnt leave the broncos unless josh let him...unless shanny made him OC which would be the next promotion

Bosco
08-19-2010, 04:47 PM
i believe if josh had offered the same title he could control whether turner left or not...so if he offered the same title in name only as shanny (something shanny was known to do) did...then turner couldnt leave the broncos unless josh let him I'm pretty sure that would have done nothing to stop Turner from going to Washington. I could be wrong, but I don't believe you can match the coach's offer like when you sign a player to an offer sheet.

Either way, it still wouldn't have mattered much. Josh has made it pretty clear they wouldn't stand in the way of any coaches who got promotion offers elsewhere.


...unless shanny made him OC which would be the next promotion Alot of people misunderstand this rule in the NFL. A promotion itself isn't good enough. According to the rules, you're either in a head coaching position or you're an assistant coach. Anything less is considered a lateral move.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story?id=09000d5d815667b9&template=with-video-with-comments&confirm=true

arapaho2
08-19-2010, 05:34 PM
I'm pretty sure that would have done nothing to stop Turner from going to Washington. I could be wrong, but I don't believe you can match the coach's offer like when you sign a player to an offer sheet.

Either way, it still wouldn't have mattered much. Josh has made it pretty clear they wouldn't stand in the way of any coaches who got promotion offers elsewhere.

Alot of people misunderstand this rule in the NFL. A promotion itself isn't good enough. According to the rules, you're either in a head coaching position or you're an assistant coach. Anything less is considered a lateral move.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story?id=09000d5d815667b9&template=with-video-with-comments&confirm=true

no shanny did it with a coach before i recall..in fact shanny did it quite often..promoting a coach on the team (in title) to prevent him from leaving

but a coach like a player is under contract...a contracted coach cannot leave a team for a lateral position unless the team allows it...they can move for a upgrade in position...however if josh also gave turner the title bobby could not leave unless josh allowed it

thats why shanny used the title...assistant headcoach/rbs coach
we all know bobby isnt makeing any team decisions other then with the running backs

point is ...shanny gave turner and the league the illusion of a promotion in the title "assistant head coach" but all he's doing is coaching rbs

Bosco
08-19-2010, 06:17 PM
no shanny did it with a coach before i recall..in fact shanny did it quite often..promoting a coach on the team (in title) to prevent him from leaving Alex Gibbs and Jim Bates were the only guys to ever have the "Assistant Head Coach" label under Shanahan.


but a coach like a player is under contract...a contracted coach cannot leave a team for a lateral position unless the team allows it... Correct.


they can move for a upgrade in position... Correct, but according to NFL rules, the only promotion for assistant coaches (position coaches and coordinators) is to the head coach level. Everything else is considered a lateral move.


however if josh also gave turner the title bobby could not leave unless josh allowed it Do you have a source for this? You may very well be right, however to my knowledge there is no rule that states a team can match a coach's promotion offer and the coach is forced to accept it.


thats why shanny used the title...assistant headcoach/rbs coach
we all know bobby isnt makeing any team decisions other then with the running backs

point is ...shanny gave turner and the league the illusion of a promotion in the title "assistant head coach" but all he's doing is coaching rbs I agree and that's something that Josh apparently has no interest in doing.

I Eat Staples
08-20-2010, 02:46 PM
Ben McDaniels was, and still is, a joke of a hiring. Josh brought him in because he's his little brother. This is why Josh won't ever be a great NFL coach.

Bosco
08-20-2010, 03:00 PM
I bet those staples were lead coated.

Lonestar
08-20-2010, 03:02 PM
I bet those staples were lead coated.

YEP, he/she is off to a flying start.

I Eat Staples
08-20-2010, 04:02 PM
I bet those staples were lead coated.


YEP, he/she is off to a flying start.

Posts like these do not add to a football discussion. I said my opinion, and made a statement. That's what these boards are for, if I'm not mistaken. If you disagree with my opinion on Ben and Josh McD, then I'd be happy to discuss. Making sarcastic remarks like that only lower the value of your opinion.

arapaho2
08-20-2010, 05:24 PM
Alex Gibbs and Jim Bates were the only guys to ever have the "Assistant Head Coach" label under Shanahan.

Correct.

Correct, but according to NFL rules, the only promotion for assistant coaches (position coaches and coordinators) is to the head coach level. Everything else is considered a lateral move.

Do you have a source for this? You may very well be right, however to my knowledge there is no rule that states a team can match a coach's promotion offer and the coach is forced to accept it.

I agree and that's something that Josh apparently has no interest in doing.


its not about matching...we have already agreed upon the details of coaching moves...my point simply is...if josh had wanted a man thought to be one of the finest rbs coaches in the league, if not best...and he had already rejected the skins request to interview, as he did...he ssimply needed to promote turner with a fluff title as assistant head coach/ running backs, and then shannys fluff offer would be again a lateral position and therefor rejectable...turner stays unless shanny can offer something higher than assistant head coach

The Glue Factory
08-20-2010, 06:36 PM
Posts like these do not add to a football discussion. I said my opinion, and made a statement. That's what these boards are for, if I'm not mistaken. If you disagree with my opinion on Ben and Josh McD, then I'd be happy to discuss. Making sarcastic remarks like that only lower the value of your opinion.

:tsk: :tsk: :tsk: :tsk:


But they did exactly as you've requested - show their disagreement with your comment. They did it in a way that shows they don't think it is worth discussing (probably because your position was discussed in greater detail earlier in the thread.)

I Eat Staples
08-20-2010, 06:51 PM
:tsk: :tsk: :tsk: :tsk:


But they did exactly as you've requested - show their disagreement with your comment. They did it in a way that shows they don't think it is worth discussing (probably because your position was discussed in greater detail earlier in the thread.)

They showed it in a childish, immature way. People should make some effort to at least carry themselves respectfully, even online.

claymore
08-20-2010, 07:07 PM
I bet those staples were lead coated.


YEP, he/she is off to a flying start.

These posts have been reported to NTL the lead moderator here. Tread lightly.

The Glue Factory
08-20-2010, 08:39 PM
They showed it in a childish, immature way. People should make some effort to at least carry themselves respectfully, even online.

And yet they are the established members of the community; a community that is more relaxed on code of conduct than many other community boards. You are the person coming to the community seeking acceptance as a member of the community. Have you per chance read the code of conduct here to see if their actions are in violation of said code?

Granted they weren't respectful responses but as I mentioned the comments you made were already discussed in this thread in great detail already. Which shows that you didn't bother reading the entire thread before posting your comment.

If your skin is thin enough to be bruised by those remarks, I would suggest you find a different community to participate in as those types of remarks are not unusual in these forums.

I Eat Staples
08-20-2010, 09:01 PM
And yet they are the established members of the community; a community that is more relaxed on code of conduct than many other community boards. You are the person coming to the community seeking acceptance as a member of the community. Have you per chance read the code of conduct here to see if their actions are in violation of said code?

Granted they weren't respectful responses but as I mentioned the comments you made were already discussed in this thread in great detail already. Which shows that you didn't bother reading the entire thread before posting your comment.

If your skin is thin enough to be bruised by those remarks, I would suggest you find a different community to participate in as those types of remarks are not unusual in these forums.

You certainly don't have the right idea. :lol:

If the code of conduct is lenient here, then I'm glad. I'd much rather a lenient CoC. Especially with my posting style. :D

And those comments certainly didn't bother me. They were simply immature, and when using comments like those to disagree with a contrary opinion, it generally leaves the impression that the person who said them can't back their own opinion up with anything intelligent or factual. Comments on a message board certainly don't bother me, but it's disappointing if people like that would rather act like spoiled children than engage in football discussions.

And I did indeed read the CoC, and I never claimed that they were in violation of anything other than being immature and ignorant.

Bosco
08-20-2010, 11:18 PM
its not about matching...we have already agreed upon the details of coaching moves...my point simply is...if josh had wanted a man thought to be one of the finest rbs coaches in the league, if not best...and he had already rejected the skins request to interview, as he did...he ssimply needed to promote turner with a fluff title as assistant head coach/ running backs, and then shannys fluff offer would be again a lateral position and therefor rejectable...turner stays unless shanny can offer something higher than assistant head coach

Yeah but what I'm telling you is that for that to work, Turner would have to accept the promotion. Josh just can't stick job titles on different coaches all willy nilly like.


:tsk: :tsk: :tsk: :tsk:


But they did exactly as you've requested - show their disagreement with your comment. They did it in a way that shows they don't think it is worth discussing (probably because your position was discussed in greater detail earlier in the thread.)

Exactly.

Staples, if you're so content on having real football discussion, feel free to bring it anytime. If you want to make such declarations about Josh based on his hiring, why not back it up? An explanation of how this negatively affects the team and why it's an indicator of the type of coach Josh will become despite many coaches, both good and bad, hiring siblings, sons and friends.

When you can do that, then we'll talk.

frauschieze
08-21-2010, 12:24 AM
There is no need to make football discussions personal, which means there is no need to point out another poster's characteristics if they don't meet your expectations.

Just a friendly reminder. :)