2nd Best QB in Denver Broncos History?

[tubby]

Passing Yards
11,895 Craig Morton, 1997-82
11,763 Brian Griese, 1998-2002
11,631 Jake Plummer, 2003-06
7,676 Frank Ripucka, 1960-63
7,238 Charley Johnson, 1972-75

Touchdown Passes
74 Craig Morton
71 Jake Plummer
71 Brian Griese
52 Charley Johnson
51 Frank Tripucka

Interceptions
85 Frank Tripucka
65 Craig Morton
53 Brian Griese
52 Charley Johnson
47 Jake Plummer

Record as a Starter
39-15 (.722) Jake Plummer
41-23 (.641) Craig Morton
27-24 (.529) Brian Griese
20-18-3 (.524) Charley Johnson
13-25-1 (.346) Frank Tripucka

[Northman]

Jake Plummer hands down.

[Den21vsBal19]

Jake Plummer hands down.

Agreed :couch:

[Northman]

Agreed :couch:


The thing is there really isnt much to choose from. Jake was a pretty average Qb who could go hot or cold at any moment. But put him up against the rest of the Qb's in Bronco history and he looks like John Elway. :lol:

[turftoad]

The thing is there really isnt much to choose from. Jake was a pretty average Qb who could go hot or cold at any moment. But put him up against the rest of the Qb's in Bronco history and he looks like John Elway. :lol:

Morton was a good QB. That was in the late 70's, most people don't remember.

[OB]

The fact grease ball is even on the list disgusts me - i think his era in Denver history should be erased from all records and books :mad:

[Den21vsBal19]

The thing is there really isnt much to choose from. Jake was a pretty average Qb who could go hot or cold at any moment. But put him up against the rest of the Qb's in Bronco history and he looks like John Elway. :lol:

Personally, I always liked Jake, but I remember the Plummer Wars on BM/BC :eek:


Morton was a good QB. That was in the late 70's, most people don't remember.

A little before my time, when the NFL came to these shores Elway was splitting time with Steve DeBerg

[Northman]

Morton was a good QB. That was in the late 70's, most people don't remember.

I saw the tale end of his career at Denver and was never really impressed. But, he did make it too a Super Bowl.

[Northman]

The fact grease ball is even on the list disgusts me - i think his era in Denver history should be erased from all records and books :mad:


You have to admit, his 2000 season was pretty good.

[OB]

You have to admit, his 2000 season was pretty good.

I will admit NOTHING - :D

I was at the game (Invesco's inaugural game) Sept 10, 2001, vs the NYG and he put Eddie out to dry AGAIN and Eddie broke his leg cause he had to jump a MILE in the air to catch the awful pass (as usual) from grease ball - thus basically ending eddies career - IMO the only reason greise had any decent #'s at any point was due to the WR corp, O Line and RB's - tis why he hasnt done shit since - but i digress

The Jake/Jay threads at BM were definitely classics - how many people were banned due to one of those :lol:

I hope that one day we can say Cutler was by far the 2nd best QB ever - but for now I will go with Jake - i was never a Jake hater and all the other ones were before my time ;)

[Northman]

I will admit NOTHING - :D

I was at the game (Invesco's inaugural game) Sept 10, 2001, vs the NYG and he put Eddie out to dry AGAIN and Eddie broke his leg cause he had to jump a MILE in the air to catch the awful pass (as usual) from grease ball - thus basically ending eddies career - IMO the only reason greise had any decent #'s at any point was due to the WR corp, O Line and RB's - tis why he hasnt done shit since - but i digress

The Jake/Jay threads at BM were definitely classics - how many people were banned due to one of those :lol:

I hope that one day we can say Cutler was by far the 2nd best QB ever - but for now I will go with Jake - i was never a Jake hater and all the other ones were before my time ;)


Yea, but we know that Eddy Mac didnt hold that against him. And Brian took it pretty hard in the process. But you do have a valid point, the talent around him was pretty damn good. Wish we had those guys now.

[claymore]

I feel dirty after voting the way I did.........

[underrated29]

what about steve deburg

[LRtagger]

Bubby

[Kaylore]

Criag Morton took us to our first Super bowl.

I want to write-in vote for Kubiak. Can I?

[BigDaddyBronco]

Criag Morton took us to our first Super bowl.

I want to write-in vote for Kubiak. Can I?

Kubiak was solid every time he got a chance to play. Good choice, I agree.

[atwater27]

I am surprised to be the first person to say this, but Jay Cutler is hands down the second best quarterback in Broncos history the moment he was drafted.

[OB]

Boy threads like this really bring out the prejudice retard in us all :D (me included BTW)

[Northman]

I am surprised to be the first person to say this, but Jay Cutler is hands down the second best quarterback in Broncos history the moment he was drafted.

Eventually he will be im sure.

[Requiem / The Dagda]

Steve B., Gus F., J. Jackson!

[Benetto]

Where's Kubiak on that poll?

[LRtagger]

Bubby

Undefeated as a starter. :D

[dogfish]

where's the "other" option? i want to vote for mulletman van pelt. . . .

[topscribe]

Morton was a good QB. That was in the late 70's, most people don't remember.

Morton was a very good QB. I doubt that many people today realize it, but
his arm strength was nearly in the same class as Elway's and Cutler's. The
term "howitzer" was applied to his arm often back then. His accuracy was
pinpoint, and his courage was second to none. He was a tremendous field
general and leader who had the undying loyalty of his teammates.

Plummer was immensely physically gifted. I have seen some posters (if not
here, then over on Mania) ridicule Shanny because he compared Jake to
Montana when he brought him over. He wasn't alone: Walsh, who coached
Montana all those years, also did so. Jake's problem was that he was a
Sunday QB: He did not devote himself during the week and offseason as he
should have. Yet he still consistently ranked in or near the top five QBs in
the league in comparative stats, and his team's W-L record speaks for
itself. To a man, Jake's teammates liked and respected him. Had he
devoted himself to football the way his colleagues did, I have no doubt he
would have been among the elite.

Oh, BTW, I've heard the term "rag arm" applied to Jake. In the 2002 QB
Challenge, which he won, he, Brady, and Peyton Manning threw for about
the same distances in the long distance event.

Griese was also physically gifted. He did not have an especially strong arm,
but he had a Marino-like quick release and uncanny accuracy. He put it all
together in 2000, when he achieved the highest QB rating in the league
and was invited to the Pro Bowl. It was during that year when I caught
Madden as saying that Griese was the best of the young QBs playing at
that time. That was the sole year the Broncos went to the playoffs when
Plummer wasn't playing. Had he had it all together above the shoulders,
what he had below them may have given him the same type of career his
dad enjoyed.

Outside Elway, Charley Johnson may have been the most exciting QB the
Broncos ever had. I remember his being referred to as "The Touchdown
Machine." He neither was blessed with a cannon-type arm, but he was
deadly accurate, and he was mobile. I remember my jaw dropping as I
would watch him throw a ball into nowhere, then a receiver run under it.
Charley, however, was hit with a deadly curse: a pathetic (non) supporting
cast. Had he Morton's team, I believe Charley would have gone to the
Super Bowl, too.

Tripucka had guts. He had to, with the team he played for. He took over a
team that would go fourteen years before it realized a winning season.
Since the Broncos did not enjoy a lot of TV exposure in his day, and I was
but a teenager who was more interested in following the great Lionel Taylor,
I remember less about Tripucka than any other of the QBs.

Regarding who was best among these, I'm torn between Morton and Jake.
Guess I'll pick Morton. He was the only QB besides Elway to go to the SB.

However, I fully expect Cutler to lift himselves head and shoulders above
anything we've seen, except Elway, of course.

-----

[jrelway]

jake plummer hands down. mug played with passion.

[Slick]

Top, I called Jake "noodle arm" one time...remember that? :lol:

Of the choices, I'll go with Morton. I remember him a little bit.

[Dreadnought]

I'd go with Morton, then Charley Johnson. Morton had an amazing arm, and threw a deep ball that was a thing of beauty. Provided he got time, and lots of it, because he may be the most immobile QB I've ever watched. I had a 1979 Seattle-Denver game on DVD (which I can't find now :mad:), where Norris Weese started at QB, and was just beyond putrid. Morton led the Broncs to 4 TD's in the 2nd half after Weese got benched. He was throwing 20-30 yards passes effortlessly and on the money, every time. He just crucified the Seahawk defense.

After him I'd go with Charley Johnson. I started following the Broncos with Steve Tensi at QB. Then Marlin Briscoe. Tensi again. Pete Liske. Don Horn. Steve Ramsey. All that talent in Floyd Little and "Tombstone" went for nothing, because each and every one of those guys flat out stunk. Johnson was super bright, good arm, and understood the game. he started us on the path to being a good and sometimes great team.

[OMorange&blue]

Jake, by a mustache.

[slim]

Morton is clearly the 2nd best we have had. I really can't see much of an argument for the others on the list.

[OMorange&blue]

I just gave you one.

[slim]

I just gave you one.

Yeah, I like pornstaches as much as the next guy. I may have to reconsider.

[Lonestar]

Jake hands down and I saw Morton as well..

Jake had better stats but played almost a season less, than Morton and had a better winning percentage..

Morton a good fill in QB at the time..

[Lonestar]

I will admit NOTHING - :D

I was at the game (Invesco's inaugural game) Sept 10, 2001, vs the NYG and he put Eddie out to dry AGAIN and Eddie broke his leg cause he had to jump a MILE in the air to catch the awful pass (as usual) from grease ball - thus basically ending eddies career - IMO the only reason greise had any decent #'s at any point was due to the WR corp, O Line and RB's - tis why he hasnt done shit since - but i digress

The Jake/Jay threads at BM were definitely classics - how many people were banned due to one of those :lol:

I hope that one day we can say Cutler was by far the 2nd best QB ever - but for now I will go with Jake - i was never a Jake hater and all the other ones were before my time ;)


he ended to great Broncos careers with his lousy shots in the dark..

I was one that was constantly in the dog house because of Jake..

The only positive I can say about greasy was coming back into the game after separating his shoulder against OAK.. that took guts..or lots of morphine..

[Hobe]

Jake Plummer hands down.


Sorry I have to go with Morton. He got a lot out of a marginal offense. However, I have no problem with Plummer. I think he gave us everything he had and he almost pulled it off. :salute:

[BroncoFanatic]

I saw the tale end of his career at Denver and was never really impressed. But, he did make it too a Super Bowl.

He made up for that by being really atrocious in it. I may be wrong, but I believe his INT record in a Super Bowl still stands to this day. That memory still stings a little, so it was easy for me to pick Jake

[topscribe]

I'd go with Morton, then Charley Johnson. Morton had an amazing arm, and threw a deep ball that was a thing of beauty. Provided he got time, and lots of it, because he may be the most immobile QB I've ever watched. I had a 1979 Seattle-Denver game on DVD (which I can't find now :mad:), where Norris Weese started at QB, and was just beyond putrid. Morton led the Broncs to 4 TD's in the 2nd half after Weese got benched. He was throwing 20-30 yards passes effortlessly and on the money, every time. He just crucified the Seahawk defense.

After him I'd go with Charley Johnson. I started following the Broncos with Steve Tensi at QB. Then Marlin Briscoe. Tensi again. Pete Liske. Don Horn. Steve Ramsey. All that talent in Floyd Little and "Tombstone" went for nothing, because each and every one of those guys flat out stunk. Johnson was super bright, good arm, and understood the game. he started us on the path to being a good and sometimes great team.

I remember that spectacular second half of Morton's. As I remember, the
Broncos were like 21 points down, or something like that, and Morton
electrified the crowd . . . at least he did me . . . with that comeback.

After the game, some stupid reporter asked something to the effect of,
how did he do it? Morton's response: "Nothing to it." :laugh:

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[Dreadnought]

I remember that spectacular second half of Morton's. As I remember, the
Broncos were like 21 points down, or something like that, and Morton
electrified the crowd . . . at least he did me . . . with that comeback.

After the game, some stupid reporter asked something to the effect of,
how did he do it? Morton's response: "Nothing to it." :laugh:

-----

He was flat out awesome in 81 too, 'til he got hurt. His stats were terrific, and he and Watson were lighting people up.

[topscribe]

He made up for that by being really atrocious in it. I may be wrong, but I believe his INT record in a Super Bowl still stands to this day. That memory still stings a little, so it was easy for me to pick Jake

Wrong. The problem was not Morton. It was his offensive line.

More specifically, their best lineman, Tom Glassic, was ill, and he weighed all
of 220 lbs. on that fateful day. The tackle next to him, Andy Maurer, was not
a good tackle. Always before, Glassic had largely made up for Maurer's
deficiency. But on this day, the left side of the line was horrendously weak.

While the Broncos somehow were able to hide Glassic's illness form the
Raiders (and everyone else) in the AFC Championsip game, the Cowboys
seemed to know all about it because they put Randy White and Harvey
Martin over Glassic, and the Cowboys spent the day in the Broncos'
backfield.

If you don't think that doesn't make even the best QBs throw INTs, then
you need to consult with Joe Namath, who threw six INTs in 1969, in a
21-19 loss to the Denver Broncos . . . which was the Jets' SB year, BTW.
The reasons for Namath's INTs came in the forms of Pete Duranko, Dave
Costa, and Rich "Tombstone" Jackson. (I have a Jackson jersey. :D )

That Super Bowl in no way diminishes Craig Morton as a QB, in my mind.

-----

[LRtagger]

I picked Trip because he was the first QB in franchise history. He was also the first QB in league history (AFL) to throw for 3000 yards in a season and threw the first TD pass in AFL history. Plus Denver retired his number. Cant say I have ever seen him play, though. His stats were pretty atrocious compared to today's greats' standards, but he did make the probowl in '62. Not like I can just hop on youtube and find highlight reels of the guy though. :D:lol:

He did pave the way for the organization, though...so I figure he deserves at LEAST one vote...and a salute too :salute:

[topscribe]

he ended to great Broncos careers with his lousy shots in the dark..

I was one that was constantly in the dog house because of Jake..

The only positive I can say about greasy was coming back into the game after separating his shoulder against OAK.. that took guts..or lots of morphine..

You and I were, if you remember. ;)

In my mind, our battles with Mtnman over Jake were legendary . . . :nixon:

-----

[Broncos Mtnman]

John Elway - 5 Super Bowls
Craig Morton - 1 Super Bowl

The rest of the list (including Jake the Fake)

ZERO - ZILCH - NADA - BIG GOOSE EGG!!

2nd best is Morton, hands down!!

:coffee:

[Den21vsBal19]

You and I were, if you remember. ;)

In my mind, our battles with Mtnman over Jake were legendary . . . :nixon:

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I remember JR sending me a PM to duck :laugh:

[Broncos Mtnman]

You and I were, if you remember. ;)

In my mind, our battles with Mtnman over Jake were legendary . . . :nixon:

-----

I got banned over at BM twice because of Jake.

:mad:

[topscribe]

I got banned over at BM twice because of Jake.

:mad:

No, Mtnman, it was because of you.

Jake was just your object. http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh256/AZDynamics/Smilies/thwink.gif

-----

[Lonestar]

I got banned over at BM twice because of Jake.

:mad:

Just twice? I'm sure I've have beaten you in that one.. YOU got me banned at least that many times, then there was your taggit squad that followed your every breath..

Yes those were some good threads.. I can see you have not changed your mind on Jake since his departure.

Some day maybe we can come to an understanding on this..



Without weapons that is..:laugh:

[Slick]

I got banned over at BM twice because of Jake.

:mad:

You were relentless, and I respected you for it and still do.

Same with Top and Jr. Those threads were some great reads. Polarizing, but entertaining none the less.

[Broncos Mtnman]

You were relentless, and I respected you for it and still do.

Same with Top and Jr. Those threads were some great reads. Polarizing, but entertaining none the less.

Thanks man.

:salute:

[Dreadnought]

Jake near killed me; it wasn't that he couldn't play, because he could. If he focused and prepared. Which happened if he felt like it. Some of the stuff I watched him do drove me flat crazy, because it was clearly lack of preparation and mental vapor locks. I want the Bronco QB to care at least as much as I do!

[Medford Bronco]

Criag Morton took us to our first Super bowl.

I want to write-in vote for Kubiak. Can I?

I say Craig Morton as he put us on the map
as a good team, along with a sick defense that
had 4 of the best LB to play in NFL history and
its a shame that none of Gradishar, Jackson, Rizzo
or Swenson is in the Hall of Fame. I think Gradishar
or Jackson are very deserving IMO.

[rcsodak]

Jake Plummer hands down.

Yep.

Stats prove it.

Record proves it.

Only a maroon could deny.

Next question....... :coffee:

[BroncoJoe]

Gotta go with "The Trip".

Frank is the only other QB to have his number retired. He truly was a great QB for his time, and although his stat's aren't as great as the others, think about the era he played in.

Career numbers are pretty impressive, for the 50''s-60's

....................Att Com....... Yds TD's
Career 75 52 879 1745 50.4 10282 69

That said, if Kubiak was on the list, he'd win in a landslide. Including a vote from me.

[Medford Bronco]

Yep.

Stats prove it.

Record proves it.

Only a maroon could deny.

Next question....... :coffee:

well I must be a moron then RC

Jake can not hold Mortons jock as a QB.

with his whole one playoff victory to support him
that the defense stole vs NE and some very
fortunate luck of dropped punt returns etc.

[Dreadnought]

Gotta go with "The Trip".

Frank is the only other QB to have his number retired. He truly was a great QB for his time, and although his stat's aren't as great as the others, think about the era he played in.

Career numbers are pretty impressive, for the 50''s-60's

....................Att Com....... Yds TD's
Career 75 52 879 1745 50.4 10282 69

That said, if Kubiak was on the list, he'd win in a landslide. Including a vote from me.

Tripucka is an interesting Pick, and you're right, those aren't too bad for the era. Its defensible, but I'd still go Morton and then Johnson

[topscribe]

well I must be a moron then RC

Jake can not hold Mortons jock as a QB.

with his whole one playoff victory to support him
that the defense stole vs NE and some very
fortunate luck of dropped punt returns etc.

Before this goes any further, RC said "maroon," not "moron." That's important
because "maroon" is usually rendered with humor (ala Bugs Bunny), whereas
"moron" usually is not.

Just thought I would make that clear.

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[Medford Bronco]

Before this goes any further, RC said "maroon," not "moron." That's important
because "maroon" is usually rendered with humor (ala Bugs Bunny), whereas
"moron" usually is not.

Just thought I would make that clear.

-----


no problem Top :beer:

I am a maroon then :laugh: Just a joke, just a joke. btw :lol:

[Dreadnought]

I will always respect a man who knows his Bugs Bunny.

[Lonestar]

Jake near killed me; it wasn't that he couldn't play, because he could. If he focused and prepared. Which happened if he felt like it. Some of the stuff I watched him do drove me flat crazy, because it was clearly lack of preparation and mental vapor locks. I want the Bronco QB to care at least as much as I do!

Just curious how do you explain the off season before the 2005 where Gary Mike and Jake sat down and watched every play he made, went over them and he spent most of the off season preparing for his best year with almost NO interceptions during 2005 season QB rating of 90.2, 7 picks all year, with a franchise record # of passes thrown between picks.

Sorry but he was motivated and willing to put the time in until the following draft.. IMO

[Broncos Mtnman]

I will always respect a man who knows his Bugs Bunny.

http://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/image/getty/headshot/P/L/U/PLU243945.jpghttp://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:0UpfiqJ2spIJ::realitymarbles.files.wo rdpress.com/2007/08/bugsbunny.png"Ehhhh, this guy's a MAROON"

[topscribe]

http://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/image/getty/headshot/P/L/U/PLU243945.jpghttp://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:0UpfiqJ2spIJ::realitymarbles.files.wo rdpress.com/2007/08/bugsbunny.png"Ehhhh, this guy's a MAROON"

ROTF!! :lol:

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[Medford Bronco]

http://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/image/getty/headshot/P/L/U/PLU243945.jpghttp://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:0UpfiqJ2spIJ::realitymarbles.files.wo rdpress.com/2007/08/bugsbunny.png"Ehhhh, this guy's a MAROON"

I thought it was Jason Giambi with that pornstache
or Dennis Eckersley :lol:

http://assets.espn.go.com/photo/2006/0829/pg2_a_giambi_195.jpg or http://http://sports.espn.go.com/i/magazine/new/040726_eckersley2.jpg

[Dreadnought]

Just curious how do you explain the off season before the 2005 where Gary Mike and Jake sat down and watched every play he made, went over them and he spent most of the off season preparing for his best year with almost NO interceptions during 2005 season QB rating of 90.2, 7 picks all year, with a franchise record # of passes thrown between picks.

Sorry but he was motivated and willing to put the time in until the following draft.. IMO

Just proof he could do it if he felt like it. As a Pro, there is no excuse that I care to hear for that wretched performance of his in '06. There is never an excuse for a QB rating ten points below Kordell freakin' Stewart's career average! Just proof positive to me that the Cutler pick was the right one.

[Den21vsBal19]

Just curious how do you explain the off season before the 2005 where Gary Mike and Jake sat down and watched every play he made, went over them and he spent most of the off season preparing for his best year with almost NO interceptions during 2005 season QB rating of 90.2, 7 picks all year, with a franchise record # of passes thrown between picks.

Sorry but he was motivated and willing to put the time in until the following draft.. IMO

The whole thing reminded me of the stories coming out of Denver back when Shanahan acted as a 'buffer' between Elway & Dan Reeves.

For whatever reason, the chemistry between Jake, Mike & 'Dinger didn't work the same as the Gary, Mike & Jake show did.

And let's not forget that for a lot of that final season, Jake only had Walker & a half-fit Rod Smith to aim at, I can't remember ever seeing so many max protect schemes..............

[Traveler]

Morton should be #2, although I voted for Charley Johnson. Could have been much better if he had an OL that could block. All I remember is Johnson getting blasted after each attempt to pass.

[Northman]

Just proof he could do it if he felt like it. As a Pro, there is no excuse that I care to hear for that wretched performance of his in '06. There is never an excuse for a QB rating ten points below Kordell freakin' Stewart's career average! Just proof positive to me that the Cutler pick was the right one.


Yea, i have a real hard time swallowing the excuse about the draft being the reason he tanked in 06'. Like ive stated before, Denver had a rare opportunity to snag a future Qb because of their (again) rare draft position so they took it and grabbed Cutler. Denver has spent most years in the bottom of the draft because of their competitiveness so when the opportunity was there to get a young Qb they took it. Jake as a player may of had fire in his heart and may have been a team favorite but his leadership definitely comes into question regarding that whole adventure of 06'.

The Broncos Organization was planning no having Jay sit for a year or two while he learned from Jake but yet Jake folded and essentially just flat out quit on the team. PATHETIC. And that will always be the defining moment for me when it comes to Plummer. He was a average QB at best who only wanted to play when he wanted too. He only studied or worked hard when he wanted to. Doesnt matter that guys like Elway, Manning, Brady, Young, and Favre worked their asses off every year regardless of what was going on around them they sucked it up and forged ahead and in the end it paid off. Its too bad that Jake never truly understood that concept.

[Lonestar]

Just proof he could do it if he felt like it. As a Pro, there is no excuse that I care to hear for that wretched performance of his in '06. There is never an excuse for a QB rating ten points below Kordell freakin' Stewart's career average! Just proof positive to me that the Cutler pick was the right one.

I had floated the theory that Jake had felt like he was stabbed in the back with Mikey taking Jay, the more I think about it the more I feel that way.

He had a great QB rating it 2003 for the games he payed until he was hurt.. in 2004 he broke a bunch of Bronco records, And some of that was atributed to the ROE change. After that season they sat down and worked on improving his game, in decision making by watching video for everyplay he has made. He responded by having his second best ever QB rating .. Coming very close to setting NFL reocrds for most passes between Interceptions, before that fateful loss to the steelers

A game that IMO the OLINE did not show up to play or perhaps the best way to say it the steelers came to play and most of the Broncos did not..

That game did indeed show the world how to beat the donks.. and that was the demise of Jake and mikey's smoke and mirror show..

Was drafting Jay a good idea? In retrospect I say it was. Although at the time I again wanted a DT.. FELT that was a much higher priority guess I was right about needing one.. for that matter we may still need at least one..

But I can also say if I were Jake after 3 solid years and improving his play each year, I to would most likely seen the handwriting on the wall. I can understand why he did not do well in 2006.. Lost his go between in Gary, the scheme changed from what Jake did best to something this team was NOT prepared to do and that was being a Drop back passing team..

We all know how far this OLINE has deteriorated since ZIM and company left.. Sure we ran the ball between the twenties, like almost no other NFL could do.. but we just did not have the horsepower to ram it in inside the 5..

Our redzone TD production has sucked since poortis and TD were gone.

Did Jake mail it in? or was it the changes that caused the issue? The Jake haters have their thoughts here and most others realize that this team was sick and Mikey's brilliance as a coach was holding it together..

The offense has stunk the past two years and I'm hoping that was because of Dinger and his inability to protect the passer with his schemes.

Dinger is gone and now we have a OLINE that appears to be about 15 pounds bigger across the board and that will when they get to know each other NEXT year cause a lot of heart ache for DC that we play..

The question in my mind was it Lepsis going down, the new scheme, Jake's inability to change or the resignation that he was now longer wanted here that caused the 2006 to stink..

Probably all of the above..

[topscribe]

I had floated the theory that Jake had felt like he was stabbed in the back with Mikey taking Jay, the more I think about it the more I feel that way.

He had a great QB rating it 2003 for the games he payed until he was hurt.. in 2004 he broke a bunch of Bronco records, And some of that was atributed to the ROE change. After that season they sat down and worked on improving his game, in decision making by watching video for everyplay he has made. He responded by having his second best ever QB rating .. Coming very close to setting NFL reocrds for most passes between Interceptions, before that fateful loss to the steelers

A game that IMO the OLINE did not show up to play or perhaps the best way to say it the steelers came to play and most of the Broncos did not..

That game did indeed show the world how to beat the donks.. and that was the demise of Jake and mikey's smoke and mirror show..

Was drafting Jay a good idea? In retrospect I say it was. Although at the time I again wanted a DT.. FELT that was a much higher priority guess I was right about needing one.. for that matter we may still need at least one..

But I can also say if I were Jake after 3 solid years and improving his play each year, I to would most likely seen the handwriting on the wall. I can understand why he did not do well in 2006.. Lost his go between in Gary, the scheme changed from what Jake did best to something this team was NOT prepared to do and that was being a Drop back passing team..

We all know how far this OLINE has deteriorated since ZIM and company left.. Sure we ran the ball between the twenties, like almost no other NFL could do.. but we just did not have the horsepower to ram it in inside the 5..

Our redzone TD production has sucked since poortis and TD were gone.

Did Jake mail it in? or was it the changes that caused the issue? The Jake haters have their thoughts here and most others realize that this team was sick and Mikey's brilliance as a coach was holding it together..

The offense has stunk the past two years and I'm hoping that was because of Dinger and his inability to protect the passer with his schemes.

Dinger is gone and now we have a OLINE that appears to be about 15 pounds bigger across the board and that will when they get to know each other NEXT year cause a lot of heart ache for DC that we play..

The question in my mind was it Lepsis going down, the new scheme, Jake's inability to change or the resignation that he was now longer wanted here that caused the 2006 to stink..

Probably all of the above..

Excellent analysis, JR. If it ain't broke and you try to fix it, more often than
not you're going to break it. And that is what Heimerdinger did, IMO. Jake
could pass from the pocket if the defense was not set up specifically to
defend that. He was more effective in the pocket when the threat of
rollout and bootleg were ominous to the defense.

I was thrilled when they drafted Jay, and I still think it was exactly the
right thing to do. But instead of replacing Jake before the Seattle game,
they should have replaced Heimerdinger, IMO.

It's a wonder that, by throwing Jay into the fire as they did, they didn't
ruin Jay, and they probably would have, had he not just gone through four
years of running for his life at Vandy.

You believe Shanny is a genius coach (even if you think he stinks in
evaluating talent). I think so, too, generally. But he dropped the ball in how
he handled the QB situation in 2006.

-----

[Dreadnought]

You believe Shanny is a genius coach (even if you think he stinks in
evaluating talent). I think so, too, generally. But he dropped the ball in how
he handled the QB situation in 2006.

-----

To an extent Top - but at the same time it shouldn't be too much to expect that a guy being paid, lets just say, more than the two of us combined in all liklihood :D, to step up and do his job. Every NFL player knows the handwriting is on the wall for them, starting in Year one. I think Shanahan had a right to expect that Plummer would at least try to perform to his 03 - 05 levels. I'll agree that maybe the scheme wasn't the best fit for him, but it was almost like watching a petulant teen-ager fail kinda sorta on purpose just to prove you wrong. "See, that'll teach 'em I never liked this system anyway, and I knew it wouldn't work, and then they draft this snot nosed kid from Vandy. I hope it blows up in all their faces." His performance after the 06 season was a bit odd as well, which inclines me to think some of this kind of thinking was going on.

[Northman]

But he dropped the ball in how
he handled the QB situation in 2006.

-----


Really? I think he waited too long to pull the plug. I always kind of find it funny that people think that Jake was actually better than he was. Cutler was an instant upgrade at that position. True, there is still more work that needs to be done and the team is in the process of doing that but the 05' Championship game against the Steelers pretty much showed the limits to what Jake could do with the team. 4 turnovers is just plain unacceptable on any level. The fact that he repeated it against the Rams justified the pick. Sure, we could of used some DT help in the following draft but again the rare opportunity to get a high caliber future Qb was there and the Organization took it. Taking Jay wasnt only a good thing for the future but also from a depth standpoint. I cant believe that so many people dont see the benefit all around from taking that shot including Plummer. If Jake went down then what? Preston Parsons? Are you kidding me? The bottom line to all of this is that whether or not Shanahan drafted Jay as the "immediate" replacement or not Jake had the opportunity to repeat his feat from 05' yet chose to pack it in.

[Northman]

To an extent Top - but at the same time it shouldn't be too much to expect that a guy being paid, lets just say, more than the two of us combined in all liklihood :D, to step up and do his job. Every NFL player knows the handwriting is on the wall for them, starting in Year one. I think Shanahan had a right to expect that Plummer would at least try to perform to his 03 - 05 levels. I'll agree that maybe the scheme wasn't the best fit for him, but it was almost like watching a petulant teen-ager fail kinda sorta on purpose just to prove you wrong. "See, that'll teach 'em I never liked this system anyway, and I knew it wouldn't work, and then they draft this snot nosed kid from Vandy. I hope it blows up in all their faces." His performance after the 06 season was a bit odd as well, which inclines me to think some of this kind of thinking was going on.


I saw a post on the mane that caught my attention. Evidently, all through Jake's high school and Collegiate career he has never had to sit behind anyone. Even when he made it too the pros he only sat 6 games before going on for Kent Graham. So he evidently had this complex about having to not fight for a starting job or even competing for it. So, if he felt that he was stabbed in the back that was all of his own doing. I can most certainly guarantee that Shanahan didnt want to put Cutler in as early as he did. I think Mike really thought that Jake could repeat what he did in 05' and even maybe 06' while Jay sat and learned. But when it became very evident that Jake just wasnt on the same page it forced Shanahan's position.

[topscribe]

Really? I think he waited too long to pull the plug. I always kind of find it funny that people think that Jake was actually better than he was. Cutler was an instant upgrade at that position. True, there is still more work that needs to be done and the team is in the process of doing that but the 05' Championship game against the Steelers pretty much showed the limits to what Jake could do with the team. 4 turnovers is just plain unacceptable on any level. The fact that he repeated it against the Rams justified the pick. Sure, we could of used some DT help in the following draft but again the rare opportunity to get a high caliber future Qb was there and the Organization took it. Taking Jay wasnt only a good thing for the future but also from a depth standpoint. I cant believe that so many people dont see the benefit all around from taking that shot including Plummer. If Jake went down then what? Preston Parsons? Are you kidding me? The bottom line to all of this is that whether or not Shanahan drafted Jay as the "immediate" replacement or not Jake had the opportunity to repeat his feat from 05' yet chose to pack it in.

You seem to be arguing Jay's selection with me. If you go back and carefully
read my post, you will see that I categorically approved his selection, that
I believed it was absolutely the right thing to do.

Regarding as to when Jay took over for Jake, I still disagree with that
today. Jake didn't all the sudden go to hell in a handbasket after often
being one of the top five QBs in the league, statistically. When things
turned so bad all the sudden, I have to look further than the individual,
assuming that individual did not tear a tendon in his arm or something.
To just look at the QB and not try to take a more in-depth look at cause
and effect is pretty shallow, in my opinion.

In any capacity, if you don't have a good job fit, you don't get good
production. To confine Jake to the pocket and create a pocket-oriented
pass offense created a bad job fit for him. Therefore, IMO, to have put
Heimerdinger with the Broncos' offense at all was a bad job fit.

-----

[omac]

I don't think it was backstabbing at all. In hindsight, I just think that after the AFCCG, Shanny believed he needed to go in a new direction at QB. Though Shanny's plan was for Jay to be the Broncos' future, Jake was still the Broncos' present, and it was up to him to keep the youngster at the bench. Favre had been keeping Rodgers at the bench, McNabb's been keeping Kolb at the bench, Kitna's been keeping Stanton on the bench; heck, Warner's fought himself out of the bench and brought the supposed heir-apparent Leinart back into the bench.

That's the life cyle in the NFL. It's up to the veterans to keep on going strong, and make the youngsters have to fight to get playing time. In Jake's case, it was just bad timing to have an off year just as the Broncos drafted their future QB.

On benching Plummer for Cutler, I just think Jake was just having a bad season for whatever reason, and Cutler was probably looking comparably much better during practice that Shanny just had to pull the trigger.

In NY, Pennington's poor play forced Mangini to bench him and start Clemens (unfortunately, Clemens also stunk, so they drafted Ainge :laugh: ).

[Northman]

You seem to be arguing Jay's selection with me. If you go back and carefully
read my post, you will see that I categorically approved his selection, that
I believed it was absolutely the right thing to do.

Regarding as to when Jay took over for Jake, I still disagree with that
today. Jake didn't all the sudden go to hell in a handbasket after often
being one of the top five QBs in the league, statistically. When things
turned so bad all the sudden, I have to look further than the individual,
assuming that individual did not tear a tendon in his arm or something.
To just look at the QB and not try to take a more in-depth look at cause
and effect is pretty shallow, in my opinion.

In any capacity, if you don't have a good job fit, you don't get good
production. To confine Jake to the pocket and create a pocket-oriented
pass offense created a bad job fit for him. Therefore, IMO, to have put
Heimerdinger with the Broncos' offense at all was a bad job fit.

-----


Yea, i really wasnt yelling at you or anything sometimes i just get on rant roll and it never stops. I had to edit that post like 5 times because i was going off topic so much. :laugh:

I do understand that there are other factors that play into one's ability to perform one's duties. But, you sort of made the arguement for me. One of Jake's biggest negatives is his ability to read defense packages from the pocket. And after 3 years of bootlegging the hell out of those sucker chiefs the rest of the league caught on that Jake was really one dimensional. If not for the defense early in the season we probably would have had a much worse season than we actually had. Does all the offensive woes fall on Jake? No. I understand that the Oline has regressed (even then) and we dont have THE RB of the future but our running game has still been adequate although not dominate. The only real way that Jake Plummer was ever going to win a championship was if he had a defense like the 2000 Ravens or 85 Bears and all that would require Jake playing it VERY safe which he doesnt always like to do. Its just weird man, when i watch Jay play i always have hope we might win. I still get nervous but nothing like i did when we had Jake running the offense. If we were behind in a game and Jake was the Qb i pretty much chalked it up to a loss. I dont feel that way with Jay because the kid can pretty much do anything out there. He just needs the experience time and weapons to do so. But even with his limited help he has still shown more promise than Jake ever would have. I think im ranting again so ill stop. :lol:

[East Coast Fan]

Wrong. The problem was not Morton. It was his offensive line.

More specifically, their best lineman, Tom Glassic, was ill, and he weighed all
of 220 lbs. on that fateful day. The tackle next to him, Andy Maurer, was not
a good tackle. Always before, Glassic had largely made up for Maurer's
deficiency. But on this day, the left side of the line was horrendously weak.

While the Broncos somehow were able to hide Glassic's illness form the
Raiders (and everyone else) in the AFC Championsip game, the Cowboys
seemed to know all about it because they put Randy White and Harvey
Martin over Glassic, and the Cowboys spent the day in the Broncos'
backfield.

That Super Bowl in no way diminishes Craig Morton as a QB, in my mind.

-----


And don't forget Dallas knew all about Craig because he played for them for years; they knew his tendencies, moves and most unfortunately his bad legs. If that guy was mobile and with that arm and smarts man would he have lit 'em up...

[topscribe]

Yea, i really wasnt yelling at you or anything sometimes i just get on rant roll and it never stops. I had to edit that post like 5 times because i was going off topic so much. :laugh:

I do understand that there are other factors that play into one's ability to perform one's duties. But, you sort of made the arguement for me. One of Jake's biggest negatives is his ability to read defense packages from the pocket. And after 3 years of bootlegging the hell out of those sucker chiefs the rest of the league caught on that Jake was really one dimensional. If not for the defense early in the season we probably would have had a much worse season than we actually had. Does all the offensive woes fall on Jake? No. I understand that the Oline has regressed (even then) and we dont have THE RB of the future but our running game has still been adequate although not dominate. The only real way that Jake Plummer was ever going to win a championship was if he had a defense like the 2000 Ravens or 85 Bears and all that would require Jake playing it VERY safe which he doesnt always like to do. Its just weird man, when i watch Jay play i always have hope we might win. I still get nervous but nothing like i did when we had Jake running the offense. If we were behind in a game and Jake was the Qb i pretty much chalked it up to a loss. I dont feel that way with Jay because the kid can pretty much do anything out there. He just needs the experience time and weapons to do so. But even with his limited help he has still shown more promise than Jake ever would have. I think im ranting again so ill stop. :lol:

You pretty much support my argument, too. You have to develop a scheme
and playbook around a QB's strengths. You cannot make him something he's
not. Jake was superb on the run, and when he was allowed to roam, he
led the team to one of the best three-year stretches they ever had, in
terms of wins and losses and the playoffs.

Now, we have Jay, who had a better "second" season than nearly any other
QB ever had, except Marino. This has been documented, of course.

The thing about Jay is that he can do anything: pass from the pocket,
roll out, bootleg . . . in fact, even though he is so good in the pocket, he
probably is potentially better than than even Jake outside the pocket
because he can do something only Elway could do for the Broncos. He can
roll to one of the field, then throw back to the other side on a rope, across
his body! :shocked: We've seen him do it!

Jay is a definite upgrade over Jake. This is true. But that is not any kind of
disparagement against Jake. Jay is showing himself to be an upgrade over
almost any quarterback.

What impresses me most about Jay, however, is what you touched upon:
his ability to come from behind. I think he will eventually be counted as one
of the greats in that area.

IMHO.

-----

[topscribe]

And don't forget Dallas knew all about Craig because he played for them for years; they knew his tendencies, moves and most unfortunately his bad legs. If that guy was mobile and with that arm and smarts man would he have lit 'em up...

Not on that particular day, friend. If the defenders are there almost in time
to take the handoff, the most mobile QB is helpless. Even Norris Weese
couldn't get away from them consistently on that day, and that guy had
wheels.

-----

[Lonestar]

I make no illusions that Jay is not potentially a better QB than Jake was.. Jake had a long ball limitation no doubt about that and he has never been Manning in the pocket.. But for the scheme he was brought into run in DEN he was the perfect fit.. Mobile QB that can if he has to play from the pocket he can but when out in the open there are few QB's as good as he was..

No one can tell me his OLINE was near the quality as Jay should have by mid season. Nor that of the super bowl years..

PIT figured out that Jake had his limitation as well and the OLINE complete inability to contain the rush when Blitzed.. Once they beat us up in that game your all correct it was plain to all that changes needed to be made..

That lose was not all Jakes fault like some would like to believe or we would not have made all the changes we have since that game..

here is a list of players with stats from that game
those highlighted in yellow are all gone
those in red are still here and of
those only three look to be starters in 2008


Passing CP/AT YDS TD INT
J. Plummer 18/30 223 1 2
Rushing ATT YDS TD LG
M. Anderson 9 36 1 7
T. Bell 5 31 0 11
J. Plummer 7 30 0 8
Receiving REC YDS TD LG
A. Lelie 2 68 1 38
R. Smith 4 61 0 32
J. Putzier 4 55 0 19
T. Bell 5 28 0 9
M. Anderson 3 11 0 13
Fumbles FUM LOST REC YDS
J. Plummer 2 2 0 0
N. Ferguson 0 0 0 0
Kicking FG LG XP PTS
J. Elam 1/1 23 2/2 5
Punting NO AVG I20 LG
T. Sauerbrun 2 37.0 1 51
Kickoff Returns NO AVG TD LG
C. Adams 4 27 0 47
C. Sapp 1 11 0 11
Punt Returns NO AVG TD LG
C. Adams 0 0 0 0
Defense T-A SCK INT FF
D. Foxworth 8-3 0.0 0 0
M. Myers 6-1 1.0 0 0
A. Wilson 6-1 0.0 0 0
N. Ferguson 5-4 0.0 0 1
M. Coleman 4-1 0.0 0 0
J. Lynch 3-1 0.0 0 0
DJ. Williams 2-4 0.5 0 0
S. Brandon 2-1 0.0 0 0
C. Brown 2-0 0.0 0 0
I. Gold 2-2 0.0 0 0
Da. Williams 1-0 0.0 0 0
C. Bailey 1-2 0.0 0 0
T. Pryce 1-1 0.5 0 0
D. Veal 1-0 0.0 0 0
G. Warren 0-1 0.0 0 0

food for thought folks!!!!!!!!

[East Coast Fan]

Not on that particular day, friend. If the defenders are there almost in time
to take the handoff, the most mobile QB is helpless. Even Norris Weese
couldn't get away from them consistently on that day, and that guy had
wheels.

-----



I often wonder why they didn't put Egloff or Odoms over on the left side to help block on that day...

[Dreadnought]

I often wonder why they didn't put Egloff or Odoms over on the left side to help block on that day...

That sort of set was rarely if ever used in 1977 - thats more of an 80's innovation

[Northman]

That lose was not all Jakes fault like some would like to believe or we would not have made all the changes we have since that game..

[/COLOR]

food for thought folks!!!!!!!!

True, there were other issues in that game but there is no bigger thorn in a teams side than turnovers. As bad as our defense played the fact that we gave them the ball 4 times just handed them the game without a fight.

[topscribe]

True, there were other issues in that game but there is no bigger thorn in a teams side than turnovers. As bad as our defense played the fact that we gave them the ball 4 times just handed them the game without a fight.

You got that right. :nod:

However, I rarely place the entire blame on a QB for his fumbles. Jake has
been bashed for that on that day, and Jay has been bashed for that last
year.

The problem is the way the QB has to handle the ball. When he's fixing to
pass, the ball is out there, completely exposed. He's thinking of a whole lot
more than just running the ball, so there is a considerable difference between
a QB's fumbles and a RB's fumbles. We do need to keep that in mind when
evaluating a QB on those terms.

Therefore, I usually place most of the blame for a QB's fumbles on the
blockers.

-----

[Northman]

You got that right. :nod:

However, I rarely place the blame on a QB for his fumbles. Jake has been
bashed for that on that day, and Jay has been bashed for that last year.

The problem is the way the QB has to handle the ball. When he's fixing to
pass, the ball is out there, completely exposed. He's thinking of a whole lot
more than just running the ball, so there is a considerable difference between
a QB's fumbles and a RB's fumbles. We do need to keep that in mind when
evaluating a QB on those terms.

-----


True. Pocket presence plays a role as well as communication from the Oline and backs. Sad thing is after Pitt beat Indy that year and we had home court i thought for sure we were going bowling. :tsk::mad:

[topscribe]

True. Pocket presence plays a role as well as communication from the Oline and backs. Sad thing is after Pitt beat Indy that year and we had home court i thought for sure we were going bowling. :tsk::mad:

Pocket presence is definitely a factor, which is the reason I went back and
edited my comment to, "I rarely place the entire blame on the QB."

Regarding that loss, I believe the primary (admittedly, not the only) factor
was the anemic "pass rush" for the Broncos. Ben was able to sit back there
and complete pass after pass after pass.

Hell, I don't think they even had to wash his uniform . . .

-----

[broncosfanscott]

Jake Plummer. He was very consistant in Denver despite the tendencies to throw picks by trying to gamble instead of throwing it out of bounds. The 2005 season didn't end the way we wanted it to, yet that was quite a season for Plummer. I mean he went like 200+ passes without a pick and his winning percentage says it all.

[Lonestar]

True. Pocket presence plays a role as well as communication from the Oline and backs. Sad thing is after Pitt beat Indy that year and we had home court i thought for sure we were going bowling. :tsk::mad:


I suspect that most of the players thought that also. IMO it looked like they were going to try and phone that game in.. and when they saw the steelers came to play it was to late.


They beat Jake to the pocket on most plays and it was like they knew the snap count and had a step on the OLINE.

When Jake got to the pocket there was one of the blitzers or DL waiting to harass him..

[Lonestar]

Jake Plummer. He was very consistant in Denver despite the tendencies to throw picks by trying to gamble instead of throwing it out of bounds. The 2005 season didn't end the way we wanted it to, yet that was quite a season for Plummer. I mean he went like 200+ passes without a pick and his winning percentage says it all.

in 2003 and 2005 he had 7 picks all year.. they got crazy in 2004 when it was gun slinging time with the ROE change it was hail mary time. Every Qb had record years witht eh DB unable to touch the WR it was passing frenzy. That was why between 2004 and 05 he spent so much time with Gary watching game film and it showed again in 2005.

[omac]

Jake Plummer. He was very consistant in Denver despite the tendencies to throw picks by trying to gamble instead of throwing it out of bounds. The 2005 season didn't end the way we wanted it to, yet that was quite a season for Plummer. I mean he went like 200+ passes without a pick and his winning percentage says it all.

Yeah, I remember a sportscaster saying on tv that season that Shanny would make Jake practice throwing the ball away to the stands. The focus that season was really ball control, no mistakes, and it showed as we had 25 rushing TDs to boot.

[Broncos Mtnman]

Jake Plummer. He was very consistant in Denver despite the tendencies to throw picks by trying to gamble instead of throwing it out of bounds.


Actually, except for 2005 when attempts were limited and therefor his mistakes were reduced, he was particularly consistent in this area too.

:coffee:

[East Coast Fan]

Wrong. The problem was not Morton. It was his offensive line.

More specifically, their best lineman, Tom Glassic, was ill, and he weighed all
of 220 lbs. on that fateful day. The tackle next to him, Andy Maurer, was not
a good tackle. Always before, Glassic had largely made up for Maurer's
deficiency.

-----




I remember reading in a football publication back then that Maurer was "a beefed-up guard" which he was; he never played tackle before that, and was brought in via trade because Bill Bain had gotten injured. Maurer was actually a decent guard, and reportedly did a very good job of handling the Vikings Alan Page on several occassions. But tackle wasn't his place, and he only lasted 1 season in Denver.

[pnbronco]

Excellent analysis, JR. If it ain't broke and you try to fix it, more often than
not you're going to break it. And that is what Heimerdinger did, IMO. Jake
could pass from the pocket if the defense was not set up specifically to
defend that. He was more effective in the pocket when the threat of
rollout and bootleg were ominous to the defense.

I was thrilled when they drafted Jay, and I still think it was exactly the
right thing to do. But instead of replacing Jake before the Seattle game,
they should have replaced Heimerdinger, IMO.

It's a wonder that, by throwing Jay into the fire as they did, they didn't
ruin Jay, and they probably would have, had he not just gone through four
years of running for his life at Vandy.

You believe Shanny is a genius coach (even if you think he stinks in
evaluating talent). I think so, too, generally. But he dropped the ball in how
he handled the QB situation in 2006.

-----

OK I just got home and I'm coming into this late. I so felt like this Jay/Jake was handled so bad. I think Jay is a amazing player and has a wonderful future ahead of him, but he needed time to develop, plus putting a harsh spot light on a kid like that could have ruined him. The chemistry Jake had with Kube just worked and it totally didn't with Heimerdinger, but Jake had to take all the blame. Jake is like a big pup that wore his heart on his sleeve and the harsher things got, the more he really did try and the worse it got.

I also think it was about timing. Everyone had seen Roethlisberger come off the bench and "take" them to a Super Bowl win. Seeing Jay arm it felt like maybe we were missing the boat.

The Jay/Jake wars were harsh and I would defend Jake but tried to stay out of the War. I will always miss Jake the person. He was always so kind to me and would look me in the eye and ask how things were going. At the Blood Drive he went up and down the aisles and shook everyones hand for coming out and thanked all the volunteers and he did the same thing at Fan Fair. He always helped me with my charities and never gave me a hard time about it. So I'm glad he's happy up in the Mountains and I only wish him the best. I also look forward to seeing Jay develop.

[Northman]

but he needed time to develop, plus putting a harsh spot light on a kid like that could have ruined him.

Generally great Qb's shine from the get go regardless of early struggles. If Jay would have gotten ruined from starting early it would of meant he wasnt a very good Qb to begin with. Im sure we will see a lot more of his development this coming year. As i pointed out earlier, Shanahan would have loved to let Jay sit for a year or two learning from Jake.


The chemistry Jake had with Kube just worked and it totally didn't with Heimerdinger, but Jake had to take all the blame. Jake is like a big pup that wore his heart on his sleeve and the harsher things got, the more he really did try and the worse it got.

The whole Kube/Heimerdinger thing may have played a part but now your just making excuses. Jake had been with the team for a couple of years. He knew how the team worked, knew how the offense ran. He wasnt a rookie, he was a veteran Qb who obviously never had a problem speaking his mind so i highly doubt that even Jake would lay the blame for his issues/lack of heart in 06' at Heimerdinger's feet.


I also think it was about timing. Everyone had seen Roethlisberger come off the bench and "take" them to a Super Bowl win. Seeing Jay arm it felt like maybe we were missing the boat.


Big Ben was a very rare occurence and landed in the perfect situation at the right time. But that is hardly the norm for a young Qb on any team not too mention that Super Bowl was won in Ben's second year in the league. Jay replaced Jake because shanny understood that the team just wasnt getting it done offensively. So he put Jay in early to get some reps and gametime experience. A lot of people think that Denver threw in the towel (maybe they did) but it was for the greater good as we werent going anywhere that year anyway.

[Lonestar]

Generally great Qb's shine from the get go regardless of early struggles. If Jay would have gotten ruined from starting early it would of meant he wasnt a very good Qb to begin with. Im sure we will see a lot more of his development this coming year. As i pointed out earlier, Shanahan would have loved to let Jay sit for a year or two learning from Jake.



The whole Kube/Heimerdinger thing may have played a part but now your just making excuses. Jake had been with the team for a couple of years. He knew how the team worked, knew how the offense ran. He wasnt a rookie, he was a veteran Qb who obviously never had a problem speaking his mind so i highly doubt that even Jake would lay the blame for his issues/lack of heart in 06' at Heimerdinger's feet.



Big Ben was a very rare occurence and landed in the perfect situation at the right time. But that is hardly the norm for a young Qb on any team not too mention that Super Bowl was won in Ben's second year in the league. Jay replaced Jake because shanny understood that the team just wasnt getting it done offensively. So he put Jay in early to get some reps and gametime experience. A lot of people think that Denver threw in the towel (maybe they did) but it was for the greater good as we werent going anywhere that year anyway.

overall your pretty close but let me add to your comment
"He knew how the team worked, knew how the offense ran."
They changed the Offense and shut down most of the roll outs that Jake excelled in and tried to convert this ZBS OLINE to a drop back passing OLINE.. Something that neither Jake nor the OLINE was ready for and it showed with neither being comfortable with it and when Lepsis went down it only got worse.

Now I know it had to be done for Jay to progress but it was not remotely good for Jake..

"A lot of people think that Denver threw in the towel (maybe they did) but it was for the greater good as we weren't going anywhere that year anyway"

yet mikey announced th to world that "Jay was our best chance at winning" while we were still in the P/O hunt.. We ALL KNOW that was not remotely true.. and it showed in us not making the P/O's and the only good thing that came out of it was Jay got some playing time. Which was not necessarily a bad thing..

Anyone that thought Jay was going to become the next Big Ben was delusional, considering the state of the team at that time..

[Northman]

overall your pretty close but let me add to your comment
"He knew how the team worked, knew how the offense ran."
They changed the Offense and shut down most of the roll outs that Jake excelled in and tried to convert this ZBS OLINE to a drop back passing OLINE.. Something that neither Jake nor the OLINE was ready for and it showed with neither being comfortable with it and when Lepsis went down it only got worse.

Now I know it had to be done for Jay to progress but it was not remotely good for Jake..

And i think that the reason the scheme changed was because the rollout was wearing thin as opposing teams were figuring it out. Shanahan had to mix it up. Now, that may have been bad for Jake but i think that Shanahan was willing to give Jake the opportunity to try and make it work. Maybe in the end it was Shanny's fault for just not cutting Jake because he couldnt handle the new scheme but i think it was only fair to try and let Jake prove he could do it.


yet mikey announced th to world that "Jay was our best chance at winning" while we were still in the P/O hunt..

As expected. I dont think any coach would come right out and say we are tanking the season. So i think that was just good PR to try to keep the team positive.


Anyone that thought Jay was going to become the next Big Ben was delusional, considering the state of the team at that time..

Totally agree.

[Lonestar]

And i think that the reason the scheme changed was because the rollout was wearing thin as opposing teams were figuring it out. Shanahan had to mix it up. Now, that may have been bad for Jake but i think that Shanahan was willing to give Jake the opportunity to try and make it work. Maybe in the end it was Shanny's fault for just not cutting Jake because he couldnt handle the new scheme but i think it was only fair to try and let Jake prove he could do it.



As expected. I dont think any coach would come right out and say we are tanking the season. So i think that was just good PR to try to keep the team positive.



Totally agree.


I agree with most of what you say here but when ever the coach make stupid statements like that he loses credibility with everyone..

Had he simply came out and said because of the change of direction the team had to make with the new OC and scheme, Jake was not having a good year and it was time to give Jay a chance everyone would have agreed with that.. Time to give Jay some reps and see how he does..

But to say to a veteran team that a rookie is going to come in and save the day puts undo pressure on not only Jay but the rest of the team..

IMO a stupid move..

If he was trying to save face for Jake, it failed because it was a total slap in the face no matter which way he did it.. IMHO

[atwater27]

This thread definitely has to be revisited. I mean, since Orton and tebow are in the picture now....:behindsofa:

[MOtorboat]

I wonder where Jay Cutler ranks?

[Canmore]

I wonder where Jay Cutler ranks?

He has all the tools except the man behind the curtain couldn't give him a brain.

[OrangeHoof]

How come Cutler's not in the poll?

Morton is the only other Broncos QB to get us to the Super Bowl so I voted for him, even though the defense had more to do with his winning percentage. Morton had to run the plays of Red Miller. Plummer had to run the plays of Mike Shanahan. Which would you rather have designing plays?

But Cutler is a close second to Morton. Cutler had the most natural talent of any Bronco QB not named Elway and he had to win a lot of games with his arm, something neither Plummer nor Morton had to do often. Yet Cutler's talents didn't translate into wins which is why I still chose Morton.

BTW, few people recall that Morton got us to the Super Bowl while spending part of the week in the hospital both with sore ribs and with the flu. His performance in the AFC Championship Game was courageous as well as necessary. He had been seen as a bust with the Cowboys and Giants. That season vindicated his career.

[topscribe]

How come Cutler's not in the poll?

Morton is the only other Broncos QB to get us to the Super Bowl so I voted for him, even though the defense had more to do with his winning percentage. Morton had to run the plays of Red Miller. Plummer had to run the plays of Mike Shanahan. Which would you rather have designing plays?

But Cutler is a close second to Morton. Cutler had the most natural talent of any Bronco QB not named Elway and he had to win a lot of games with his arm, something neither Plummer nor Morton had to do often. Yet Cutler's talents didn't translate into wins which is why I still chose Morton.

BTW, few people recall that Morton got us to the Super Bowl while spending part of the week in the hospital both with sore ribs and with the flu. His performance in the AFC Championship Game was courageous as well as necessary. He had been seen as a bust with the Cowboys and Giants. That season vindicated his career.

Cutler was not anywhere close to Morton. He wasn't close even to Plummer.
What did Cutler ever do for us? Morton led the Broncos to a Super Bowl.
Plummer to three playoff seasons in a row. I repeat: What did Cutler do?

After John Elway, Cutler was the most talented QB the Broncos ever had.
But he was far from the best. No, he should not be on that list, IMO.

Same, incidentally, for Tebow and Orton at this point, IMO . . .

-----

[Canmore]

Cutler was not anywhere close to Morton. He wasn't close even to Plummer.
What did Cutler ever do for us? Morton led the Broncos to a Super Bowl.
Plummer to three playoff seasons in a row. I repeat: What did Cutler do?

After John Elway, Cutler was the most talented QB the Broncos ever had.
But he was far from the best. No, he should not be on that list, IMO.

Same, incidentally, for Tebow and Orton at this point, IMO . . .

-----

No. Cutler was left off with good reason. He never won anything. :beer:

[claymore]

Plummer was like the 4th best QB. Maybe the 5th after Orton. What a head case.

[Poet]

It's probably Orton. He's been way better for you guys than Cutler was. Orton is a leader and a future hall of famer. Prepare yourselves for a run to the playoffs!

[Ravage!!!]

Cutler was better than Plummer.

[Buff]

Brian Griese has really grown on me over the years. Couldn't play QB worth a damn, but he sure is a nice guy.

[BeefStew25]

Brian Griese has really grown on me over the years. Couldn't play QB worth a damn, but he sure is a nice guy.

He does a fine job on the radio broadcasts. He also had a tough act to follow and an odd personality.

[BroncoWave]

Cutler was better than Plummer.

And didn't do shit when it mattered. I'd much prefer the string of playoff appearances with Plummer to the constant 8-8 seasons with Cutler folding down the stretch. And this is coming from someone who was FIRMLY on Cutler's side during the Jake/Jay debates of Broncomania past.

[BeefStew25]

Morton led us to a Super Bowl, so Morton goes over Plummer.

Plus most of us were not old enough to see Morton play, so we are biased towards younger players.

[sneakers]

No Jarious Jackson?

[BroncoWave]

No Jarious Jackson?

I was more offended with the omission of Bradlee Van Pelt myself.

[nevcraw]

Shawn Moore

[OrangeHoof]

Norris Weese.

Marlin Briscoe.

[Juriga72]

And didn't do shit when it mattered. I'd much prefer the string of playoff appearances with Plummer to the constant 8-8 seasons with Cutler folding down the stretch. And this is coming from someone who was FIRMLY on Cutler's side during the Jake/Jay debates of Broncomania past.

Jake Plummer was carried..... CARRIED by the defense.

Oh wait I know ... please come back with the whole.."He just won games!!!!"
crap

[Dreadnought]

Brian Griese has really grown on me over the years. Couldn't play QB worth a damn, but he sure is a nice guy.

2000 - MNF versus the Raiders. Gutsiest single game performance by a Bronco QB ever IMO. That injury ruined him, and I'd differ only in that that only after it he couldn't play QB worth a damn.

[Juriga72]

Morton led us to a Super Bowl, so Morton goes over Plummer.

Plus most of us were not old enough to see Morton play, so we are biased towards younger players.

I saw Craig play... possibly the slowest Bronco in history... besides Orton.

BTW..... Him beating Pittsburgh AND the Faiders......damn

[sneakers]

Gary Kubiak was the best backup quarterback in Bronco history.

[Buff]

Gary Kubiak was the best backup quarterback in Bronco history.

That depends on whether we're counting Bubby Brister as a starter or a backup.

[Dreadnought]

I feel dirty after voting the way I did.........

You were still a drinkin' man back then IIR, so all is forgiven

[nevcraw]

Shut the **** up.

lol!!!

[Dzone]

frank tripuka being in the ring of fame and having his number retired is kinda ridiculous...that was done by a desperate franchise with no history to feel good about...charley Johnson in the ring is pretty stupid too. Morton was more significant

[MOtorboat]

You know who takes a quarterback in the first round, mortgaging a boatload of picks in the process, coming off an AFC Championship appearance and three straight playoff appearances?

People who are jobless six years later. (Read: the Goodmans)

Plummer is the second-best.

[BeefStew25]

QB's are judged by Super Bowl's, Mo. Sorry. Morton over Plummer. I never saw the guy play, but lets not be generational snobs here, ok? Just once?

[BeefStew25]

I like Matt Robinson, so he is at least on the list.

[atwater27]

You know who takes a quarterback in the first round, mortgaging a boatload of picks in the process, coming off an AFC Championship appearance and three straight playoff appearances?

People who are jobless six years later. (Read: the Goodmans)

Plummer is the second-best.

You know as well as anyone that yer boy McDouche was responsible for getting rid of them. And he got fired. Hmmmmm. Go figure.

Next.

[MOtorboat]

QB's are judged by Super Bowl's, Mo. Sorry. Morton over Plummer. I never saw the guy play, but lets not be generational snobs here, ok? Just once?

2a and 2b?

[MOtorboat]

You know who takes a quarterback in the first round, mortgaging a boatload of picks in the process, coming off an AFC Championship appearance and three straight playoff appearances?

People who are jobless six years later. (Read: the Goodmans)

Plummer is the second-best.

You know as well as anyone that yer boy McDouche was responsible for getting rid of them. And he got fired. Hmmmmm. Go figure.

Next.

Yeah, three years later life-long scouts are still out of a job. If they were so good, why is this the case?

[BeefStew25]

Yeah, three years later life-long scouts are still out of a job. If they were so good, why is this the case?

Ahem. Uh, same could be said for Plummer.

[BeefStew25]

2a and 2b?

No, can't do it. Maybe if he had at least carried us to overtime against the Steelers.

[MOtorboat]

2a and 2b?

No, can't do it. Maybe if he had at least carried us to overtime against the Steelers.

Damn that game hurts. So true.

[horsepig]

One of my fave Morton memories was at Mile-Hi in '78. The stupid Seachickens were just pounding our boys into the infield dirt. Iirc, it was about 31-14 Seasquabs early in the fourth.

Red was the HC and when Morton came to the sideline during a TV TO, Red said somethinf akin to, Hell I give up, you call the plays.

The Broncos scored in 4 plays. The Squabs fumbled the ensuing KO and Morton threw another TD pass 2 plays later. 31-28.

The Broncos gained another TO and Morton hit another TD pass and our boys won 35-31!

At that time, I think that was Denver's biggest comeback, deficit wise.

[atwater27]

Yeah, three years later life-long scouts are still out of a job. If they were so good, why is this the case?

The Goodmans are doing what the Goodmans feel like doing. Don't pretend to know they haven't received NFL job offers. Maybe they got other things going.
So you think we are better off without them?

Certainly it is not reflected in either our win loss record or our roster. And that's a fact JACK.

[MOtorboat]

Yeah, three years later life-long scouts are still out of a job. If they were so good, why is this the case?

The Goodmans are doing what the Goodmans feel like doing. Don't pretend to know they haven't received NFL job offers. Maybe they got other things going.
So you think we are better off without them?

Certainly it is not reflected in either our win loss record or our roster. And that's a fact JACK.

I know they aren't working in the NFL where they are the best scouts in the league, according to some.

Also a fact JACK.

[slim]

Morton is the clear answer.

Although I still cringe when I think of him trying to move around on those bad knees.

[Dzone]

Ring of Fame

The Broncos have a Ring of Fame on the Level 5 facade of Invesco Field at Mile High, which honors the following:

23 Austin "Goose" Gonsoulin, S, 1960–1966, inducted 1984
87 Rich Jackson, DE, 1967–1972, inducted 1984
44 Floyd Little, RB, 1967–1975, inducted 1984
87 Lionel Taylor, WR, 1960–1966, inducted 1984
-- Gerald H Phipps, Owner, 1961–1981, inducted 1985
12 Charley Johnson, QB, 1972–1975, inducted 1986
70 Paul Smith, DE, 1968–1978, inducted 1986
18 Frank Tripucka, QB, 1960–1963, inducted 1986
36 Billy Thompson, S, 1969–1981, inducted 1987
7 Craig Morton, QB, 1977–1982, inducted 1988
25 Haven Moses, WR, 1972–1981, inducted 1988
15 Jim Turner, K, 1971–1979, inducted 1988
53 Randy Gradishar, LB, 1974–1983, inducted 1989
57 Tom Jackson, LB, 1973–1986, inducted 1992
20 Louis Wright, S, 1975–1986, inducted 1993
7 John Elway, QB, 1983–1998, inducted 1999
77 Karl Mecklenburg, LB, 1983–1995, inducted 2001
49 Dennis Smith, S, 1981–1994, inducted 2001
65 Gary Zimmerman, OT, 1993–1997, inducted 2003
27 Steve Atwater, S, 1989–1998, inducted 2005
30 Terrell Davis, RB, 1995–2001, inducted 2007
84 Shannon Sharpe, TE, 1990–1999, 2002–2003, inducted 2009

[BroncoNut]

Frank Tripucka was playing before I was even shot so I can't comment on his playing. I simply did not see it.. It seems like people were pretty happy with Morton's play, but I'm kinda surprised that Elway's not an option. I would have voted for him hands down. he was friggin awesome.

[slim]

WTF voted for Brian Griese?

[Lonestar]

No. Cutler was left off with good reason. He never won anything. :beer:

Actually until his defense and ST this year got then to the playoffs he has had a losing record since high school.

Kind of funny the othe day I ran into a bears fan and she hated the "blubber butt" that was the kindest thing she had to say about him and she has been a huge bears fan since the mid 70's.

[Dzone]

I dont know who looked worse running the ball, Craig Morton or Joe Namath?

[Juriga72]

I dont know who looked worse running the ball, Craig Morton or Joe Namath?

Morton... he looked like he wanted to slide as soon as the play busted. Even as a kid I saw him drop back and just fall to the ground with a ankle being touched... Oh wait.... THAT seems familiar somewhere :laugh:

[Dreadnought]

WTF voted for Brian Griese?

Well, you correctly picked Morton earlier as a lock for #2, but I think you can at least make an argument that Griese is in the running for third best, along with Jay Cutler and Charley Johnson. Then we can leave Kyle Orton and Jake Plummer to fight it out for the six spot.

[Juriga72]

HOW did anyone vote for Frank Tripucka?

85 INT in 42 games ......

2 INT/game

1.23 td game....wow

[BeefStew25]

HOW did anyone vote for Frank Tripucka?

85 INT in 42 games ......

2 INT/game

1.23 td game....wow

Okay maybe Plummer is ahead of him on the list.

[MOtorboat]

HOW did anyone vote for Frank Tripucka?

85 INT in 42 games ......

2 INT/game

1.23 td game....wow

Cutler sucked.

[titan]

Late to this thread, my list after Elway:

Craig Morton - best arm
Charlie Johnson - smart vet, joe montana type
Jake Plummer - great on the play action
Jay Cutler - on pure physical ability he's 2nd to Elway. On actual performance I rate him here

honorable mention to Marlin Briscoe - only played qb 1 year here but he sure was exciting on a bad team

[BroncoStud]

Plummer was at least fun to watch. I never will forget those hilarious bootlegs where the Chiefs and Raiders entire defensive front would follow the RBs and Jake would walk into the endzone. Good stuff.

Jake won 71% of his games here in Denver, he got us damn close to the Super Bowl, and he had really good seasons. He's hands down the 2nd best QB we've had.

Cutler might have been the 2nd most talented though. Jake just had a certain swagger about him that I liked. Morton was a pretty good QB as well, big arm. Actually looked like Elway when he threw the football. But really the gap is substantial, Elway by a MILE.