Ayers injured??!! Update: Ayers says he's fine

[rationalfan]

you gotta be shitting me.

From the Post:
Second-year outside linebacker Robert Ayers left the practice field Wednesday with an apparent injury to his left elbow/arm.

Ayers was essentially credited with two sacks during the team’s scrimmage Saturday night, although defensive players were not allowed to pop the quarterback behind the line of scrimmage. Ayers will eventually follow tight end Marquez Branson into the Broncos’ training room Wednesday. Branson suffered a right ankle injury that appeared to be serious.

[TXBRONC]

you gotta be shitting me.

From the Post:
Second-year outside linebacker Robert Ayers left the practice field Wednesday with an apparent injury to his left elbow/arm.

Ayers was essentially credited with two sacks during the team’s scrimmage Saturday night, although defensive players were not allowed to pop the quarterback behind the line of scrimmage. Ayers will eventually follow tight end Marquez Branson into the Broncos’ training room Wednesday. Branson suffered a right ankle injury that appeared to be serious.

That bites. :tsk:

Hopefully it's nothing to serious.

[rationalfan]

from lindsay jones' twitter:

Talked to Ayers after practice. "I'm fine," he said.

[NightTrainLayne]

Un-freaking believable. Hopefully, it's just a minor injury.

[TXBRONC]

from lindsay jones' twitter:

Talked to Ayers after practice. "I'm fine," he said.

That's a relief.

[underrated29]

well gaffney is hurt too...now.

[Dean]

Let's see. The Broncos IMO are at the point that they need a 3-4 OLB due to injuries and less than great depth. After looking around the league, the Ravens need a corner (Foxworth went down with a knee injury). What do all of you think about the chances of a possible trade? :confused:

[underrated29]

Let's see. The Broncos IMO are at the point that they need a 3-4 OLB due to injuries and less than great depth. After looking around the league, the Ravens need a corner (Foxworth went down with a knee injury). What do all of you think about the chances of a possible trade? :confused:









Extremely doubtful.


All of our guys are slated to be back by opening day. No need to push the panic button yet. Yes, this is plaid, but really as long as day 1 we are all here and healthy it matters not.

[Northman]

http://www.nolandgrab.org/images/DeadFlies.jpg

[rationalfan]

well gaffney is hurt too...now.

what happened? when?

[Denver Native (Carol)]

It might be better for the press to WAIT to report an injury UNTIL they KNOW the extent of the injury.

http://blogs.denverpost.com/broncos/2010/08/11/ayers-is-fine/4401/

Robert Ayers stopped to be interviewed by a media throng following practice Monday _ always a sign he’s not seriously hurt.

Ayers appeared to have a left arm/elbow injury during practice.

“”I’m OK,” he said. “‘I just got checked out. I’m fine.”

[Northman]

what happened? when?


Its a injury from last year from tripping over Marshall's ego.

[underrated29]

what happened? when?

posted by the peeps at BM....I have not read the details yet. just saw it.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

well gaffney is hurt too...now.

http://twitter.com/postbroncos

I didn't see Gaffney leave the field, but he definitely left early. Jeff Legwold said he walked off.

[Grover]

Ayers has an "Owie" and the internets gets stirred into a frenzy.

[silkamilkamonico]

Who cares. 2012 is where it's at for the Denver Broncos!

[Ziggy]

Let's see. The Broncos IMO are at the point that they need a 3-4 OLB due to injuries and less than great depth. After looking around the league, the Ravens need a corner (Foxworth went down with a knee injury). What do all of you think about the chances of a possible trade? :confused:

Very possible Dean, although with Sergio Kindle's injury I'm not sure the Ravens will bite. The Pats might though.

[TXBRONC]

Who cares. 2012 is where it's at for the Denver Broncos!

I would rather see Denver win than lose.

[claymore]

I would rather see Denver win than lose.

We should see 9-10 wins this year if McD is worth a poop.

[silkamilkamonico]

I would rather see Denver win than lose.

I'm hearing we are already going to suck something humongous because we won't have that one guy Dumerville playing. Apparently he alone is worth the difference of 3-6 wins. Just warning ya'll, don't toruture yourselves thinking Denver has a chance.

[silkamilkamonico]

We should see 9-10 wins this year if McD is worth a poop.

I'm looking at a .500 season. There aren't any coaches who could really get 5 wins with this team, even with everyone healthy, so I'm hoping McDaniels can be good scheming for a couple games anyways.

[underrated29]

I'm looking at a .500 season. There aren't any coaches who could really get 5 wins with this team, even with everyone healthy, so I'm hoping McDaniels can be good scheming for a couple games anyways.



I'm not sure if you are serious here or not?



If so I will bet you anything, and I mean anything, that we get more than 5 wins this year, no matter who gets injured.

[claymore]

I'm looking at a .500 season. There aren't any coaches who could really get 5 wins with this team, even with everyone healthy, so I'm hoping McDaniels can be good scheming for a couple games anyways.

At this point I agree. But there are plenty of coaches that could have done ALOT better in 2 years with the team McD inherited.

If I have been wrong all along we will have a winning season.

[silkamilkamonico]

I'm not sure if you are serious here or not?



If so I will bet you anything, and I mean anything, that we get more than 5 wins this year, no matter who gets injured.

I'm talking in relation with other NFL coaches.

We have a very inexperienced-questionable oline. Our QB is good when the system works, but in reality he's probably around a 20th ranked QB. Our backfield have glass gina's. Our Wr's are very inexperienced. Our offense might be very effective at TOP when it's on, but it is not going to score a lot of points.

[silkamilkamonico]

At this point I agree. But there are plenty of coaches that could have done ALOT better in 2 years with the team McD inherited.

If I have been wrong all along we will have a winning season.

I respectfully disagree. The oline was built for 1-3 coaches in the NFL, and although very good for those coaches, terrible for the rest of the league. The RB's were in the exact same boat. Last year I would have agreed with you with Cutler, but he has shown to be nothing more than a system QB under Mike Shanahan, and IMHO is still a year or two from really breaking into the upper tier.

There aren't many NFL coaches that good have made Shanahan's players work well offensively, mainly considering the oline would have been a breaking point under any other scheme in any given game.

[claymore]

I respectfully disagree. The oline was built for 1-3 coaches in the NFL, and although very good for those coaches, terrible for the rest of the league. The RB's were in the exact same boat. Last year I would have agreed with you with Cutler, but he has shown to be nothing more than a system QB under Mike Shanahan, and IMHO is still a year or two from really breaking into the upper tier.

There aren't many NFL coaches that good have made Shanahan's players work well offensively, mainly considering the oline would have been a breaking point under any other scheme in any given game.

McD could have installed his offense and system over time. He should have waited till he had the personell to do it. Upgrades. I cannot see a single upgrade other than Dawkins or hill on our roster.

His offense needs talent we dont have. It destined to fail.

Not to mention our coaching staff is laughable as well.

[slim]

McD could have installed his offense and system over time. He should have waited till he had the personell to do it. Upgrades. I cannot see a single upgrade other than Dawkins or hill on our roster.

His offense needs talent we dont have. It destined to fail.

Not to mention our coaching staff is laughable as well.

Wrong. This would only lead to years of mediocrity. Better to suck it up and get done ASAP.

Also, he has significantly upgrade the talent on defense. There is no question about that. Have you already forgotten how bad that defense had become?

[claymore]

Wrong. This would only lead to years of mediocrity. Better to suck it up and get done ASAP.

Also, he has significantly upgrade the talent on defense. There is no question about that. Have you already forgotten how bad that defense had become?

I dint see a signifigant talent upgrade on Defense. I think we had a signifigant upgrade at DC though. Our Defense is still filled full of nobody castoffs or 2nd stringers from other teams.

We were far better on defense. I credit Nolan for that. Im hoping Wink can fill his shoes.

As for changing the offense over quickly,... I dont believe that at all. That was a very good nucleus to a young offense. A good coach could have come in and slowly improved that offense.

[broncobryce]

Here we go again
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[Lonestar]

Ayers has an "Owie" and the internets gets stirred into a frenzy.

Negative Nancys at their best.
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[nbenallo33]

sounds like Ayers is okay.. i hope Gaffney is good

[frauschieze]

Thread title updated, to prevent future heart attacks like the minor one I just had.

[silkamilkamonico]

McD could have installed his offense and system over time. He should have waited till he had the personell to do it. Upgrades. I cannot see a single upgrade other than Dawkins or hill on our roster.

His offense needs talent we dont have. It destined to fail.

Not to mention our coaching staff is laughable as well.

Well, our coaching staff is a lot better now that it was under Shanahan, in regards as a collective unit. Shanahan completely lost control of the defense, and there wasn't 1 coach, DC, or unit, that was worth a dam on defense, or special teams for that matter.

[pnbronco]

I dint see a signifigant talent upgrade on Defense. I think we had a signifigant upgrade at DC though. Our Defense is still filled full of nobody castoffs or 2nd stringers from other teams.

We were far better on defense. I credit Nolan for that. Im hoping Wink can fill his shoes.

As for changing the offense over quickly,... I dont believe that at all. That was a very good nucleus to a young offense. A good coach could have come in and slowly improved that offense.

:tsk: Give me Goodman over Bly any day. Dawkins is just special in so many ways, Hill is smart and always around the ball. Cox has a nose for the ball and is so young yet. Smith looks better, not great but better. McBath is showing some real sparks.

I can not honestly remember our nose tackle from 2 years ago. McBean has learned a lot, Green still has something in the tank and is football smart. Williams is so dang big you can't tell he's tall. Fields is making a nice back up. Bannan has a energy that just scares me watching him. Oh and let's not forget Haggan was ticked last year that things ended the way that they did. He's becoming such a leader in that D and has brought a little something extra each time I see him. Ayers had no idea what was going on last year and was lost, this year he's getting it and working hard with his coaches from everything I've heard.

I like what I see in Wink, he's fisty and I love it. It's just too easy to give Nolan all the credit, esp you don't like McD.

[Lonestar]

IIRC slowitt was a pretty good DB coach before miket fubared it and made him DC before Jim Bates was hired.

But frankly mikey never appeared to give a crap about D.

Everytime we had a decent DC he could not get along with them ran them off every time.

Please do no comment about having a top ten D against the pass or run some of those years. Because unless you can be decent against BOTH at the same time being a top 5 against the run means squat if your 20 or worse against the other. Just means no one tries to run against you because the pass is there all the time.

Mikey was a great OC could scheme with the best against the best. But having his TEAM ready to play the trap games was not his forte. Nor was having them play on the east coast especially in the early slot.

Not saying that Josh has turned that corner either,but mikey sucked at it. Atleast Josh has made it one of the things he wanted to fix.
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[jhildebrand]

IIRC slowitt was a pretty good DB coach before miket fubared it and made him DC before Jim Bates was hired.


Slow was the DB coach in GB on the 4th and 26 play against Philly in the PO's. We continue to go over this Jrwiz. He has not been a decent db coach.

[NightTrainLayne]

IIRC slowitt was a pretty good DB coach before miket fubared it and made him DC before Jim Bates was hired.



Slowik didn't become our DC until after Bates. Then when Shanny got fed up with Bates, he promoted Slowik.

[TXBRONC]

Thread title updated, to prevent future heart attacks like the minor one I just had.

I have a phone number for ya: 1-800-defib. :D

[Lonestar]

:tsk: Give me Goodman over Bly any day. Dawkins is just special in so many ways, Hill is smart and always around the ball. Cox has a nose for the ball and is so young yet. Smith looks better, not great but better. McBath is showing some real sparks.

I can not honestly remember our nose tackle from 2 years ago. McBean has learned a lot, Green still has something in the tank and is football smart. Williams is so dang big you can't tell he's tall. Fields is making a nice back up. Bannan has a energy that just scares me watching him. Oh and let's not forget Haggan was ticked last year that things ended the way that they did. He's becoming such a leader in that D and has brought a little something extra each time I see him. Ayers had no idea what was going on last year and was lost, this year he's getting it and working hard with his coaches from everything I've heard.

I like what I see in Wink, he's fisty and I love it. It's just too easy to give Nolan all the credit, esp you don't like McD.

Great post.

I believe that Nolan does what he does best getting 3-4 schemes up and running. But past that he has little long term history at being successful.

I think he really screwed the pooch last year with Fields beibg his choice as starter.

Maybe it was the only choice. Available but I also beieve he did not push very hard to get one better beleieving that his former player could do the job.

Just maybe he learned something from Josh about having backups to force the starters to get better.
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[dogfish]

:tsk: Give me Goodman over Bly any day. Dawkins is just special in so many ways, Hill is smart and always around the ball. Cox has a nose for the ball and is so young yet. Smith looks better, not great but better. McBath is showing some real sparks.

I can not honestly remember our nose tackle from 2 years ago. McBean has learned a lot, Green still has something in the tank and is football smart. Williams is so dang big you can't tell he's tall. Fields is making a nice back up. Bannan has a energy that just scares me watching him. Oh and let's not forget Haggan was ticked last year that things ended the way that they did. He's becoming such a leader in that D and has brought a little something extra each time I see him. Ayers had no idea what was going on last year and was lost, this year he's getting it and working hard with his coaches from everything I've heard.

I like what I see in Wink, he's fisty and I love it. It's just too easy to give Nolan all the credit, esp you don't like McD.

clay = bitchslapped


:heh:

[Lonestar]

Slowik didn't become our DC until after Bates. Then when Shanny got fed up with Bates, he promoted Slowik.

You be wrong. Slowitt was named DC and then a few
Weeks later bates was hired as assistant D over slowitt reporting to mikey.
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[Northman]

I like what I see in Wink, he's fisty and I love it. It's just too easy to give Nolan all the credit, esp you don't like McD.

Wink is "Fisty"? I dont think i want to know anything that personal about him. ;)

As for Nolan getting the credit, its deservedly so in case you forgot where we were ranked in 08'. Wink will get his shot to "try" and do better than what Nolan had accomplished as he will have very little wiggle room.

[jhildebrand]

Wink is "Fisty"? I dont think i want to know anything that personal about him. ;)

As for Nolan getting the credit, its deservedly so in case you forgot where we were ranked in 08'. Wink will get his shot to "try" and do better than what Nolan had accomplished as he will have very little wiggle room.

Not to mention he has the benefit of starting with a better unit in a better position than Nolan had.

[Lonestar]

Unless the house of cards collapses Wink will have plenty if wiggle room.

Pat is not going to pull the plug on Josh and company this coming year or next. He does not have to have a winning record in 2010 to keep his job.

Pat is not stupid enough to start fresh regardless of this season.

His players like what he is doing he has a plan and is building for long term winning not at a one term shoit at the playoffs like mikey had been doing for the past decade.

Pat sees the progress we have made and the vision of the young PUP. Or he would not have hired him to do the job. He told Pat of his plan and he invested in it he is not going to bail on him until year 4-5 if things ar not better. If he would have wanted a quick fix he would have hired Dennison as head coach left the O alone and hired a legit GM and DC to fix the rest of the problems.

BUT he chose to go with Josh and the NE model build via the DRAFT.

Not sure why no one else sees this.
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[red98]

IIRC slowitt was a pretty good DB coach before miket fubared it and made him DC before Jim Bates was hired.

But frankly mikey never appeared to give a crap about D.

Everytime we had a decent DC he could not get along with them ran them off every time.

Please do no comment about having a top ten D against the pass or run some of those years. Because unless you can be decent against BOTH at the same time being a top 5 against the run means squat if your 20 or worse against the other. Just means no one tries to run against you because the pass is there all the time.

Mikey was a great OC could scheme with the best against the best. But having his TEAM ready to play the trap games was not his forte. Nor was having them play on the east coast especially in the early slot.

Not saying that Josh has turned that corner either,but mikey sucked at it. Atleast Josh has made it one of the things he wanted to fix.
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Mikey = Two Super Bowl Wins
All Other Denver Coaches = NONE
:D

[red98]

Not to mention he has the benefit of starting with a better unit in a better position than Nolan had.

On paper anyway...

I'm rooting for wink, I like him, but there's a tale to be told here with that D...

[Lonestar]

Mikey = Two Super Bowl Wins
All Other Denver Coaches = NONE
:D

Mikey two Lombardi's last century nothing since except ONE playoffs win and MANY ass kickings in the playoffs..

NEXT?

[TXBRONC]

On paper anyway...

I'm rooting for wink, I like him, but there's a tale to be told here with that D...

If our front line comes through I think they will be ok. Losing Dumervil is huge and we may not be able to replace all those sacks but barring injury we should still be better against the run.

[red98]

If our front line comes through I think they will be ok. Losing Dumervil is huge and we may not be able to replace all those sacks but barring injury we should still be better against the run.

Yes and that's key. We sucked against the run as the season wore on and I think Wink might just have the cojones to whip these guys into a run stuffing wall.
I feel McKid has done a very good job with our secondary in a way that would make up for any lack of pass rush.

We just gotta balance the two.

[Tned]

Mikey two Lombardi's last century nothing since except ONE playoffs win and MANY ass kickings in the playoffs..

NEXT?

Since the thread appears have moved on from Ayers to mikey, would you care to share with us a list of the other head coaches, current or former, with two Lombardi's to their name?

[Lonestar]

Since the thread appears have moved on from Ayers to mikey, would you care to share with a list of the other head coaches, current or former, with to Lombardi's to their name?

Gee since they started having the Super bowls they have given out Lombardi trophy or it equivalent before Lombardi Died..

I think that was self evident.

[TXBRONC]

Yes and that's key. We sucked against the run as the season wore on and I think Wink might just have the cojones to whip these guys into a run stuffing wall.
I feel McKid has done a very good job with our secondary in a way that would make up for any lack of pass rush.

We just gotta balance the two.

A healthy J. Williams with hopefully something left in the tank will go a long way to making them a run stuffing wall.

[Tned]

Gee since they started having the Super bowls they have given out Lombardi trophy or it equivalent before Lombardi Died..

I think that was self evident.

Not sure I followed that, but the question was (despite my typos) could you list the head coaches, active or not, that have won 2 or more Super Bowls?

[TXBRONC]

Not sure I followed that, but the question was (despite my typos) could you list the head coaches, active or not, that have won 2 or more Super Bowls?

It's not a very big list and if you want to narrow it even further those that have done it back to back it's even more elite list.

[Lonestar]

Not sure I followed that, but the question was (despite my typos) could you list the head coaches, active or not, that have won 2 or more Super Bowls?

Lombardi, Shula, Noll 4, Parcells, Johnson (3 if you count swizters):laugh::laugh::laugh:, mikey and beliicheck

[Northman]

On paper anyway...

I'm rooting for wink, I like him, but there's a tale to be told here with that D...

Yep, on paper. However, there are plenty here who say that even without Doom this team will succeed on defense so im expecting a banner year from our team if it INDEED is a TEAM concept. If talent doesnt matter than we should be locking up lombardi's as soon as next year. Time for McKid to show us what he has. His players are in place, time to win.

:ridinghorse:

[jhildebrand]

Not sure why no one else sees this.


Its not that anybody sees it. It that people expect improvement especially considering the crutches that were used for last year no longer exist i.e. new coach, new scheme, new system, etc...

Sure McDaniels could do worse and keep his job. BUT we are fans and we want something, and expect, something different.

[Northman]

Its not that anybody sees it. It that people expect improvement especially considering the crutches that were used for last year no longer exist i.e. new coach, new scheme, new system, etc...

Sure McDaniels could do worse and keep his job. BUT we are fans and we want something, and expect, something different.

I hardly think that Redskins fans are saying "Shanny's got 5 years to turn us around". It just doesnt work like that when you've been sucking for so long.

[Lonestar]

Its not that anybody sees it. It that people expect improvement especially considering the crutches that were used for last year no longer exist i.e. new coach, new scheme, new system, etc...

Sure McDaniels could do worse and keep his job. BUT we are fans and we want something, and expect, something different.

We have a right to expect better, but IMHO it is not going to happen quite this year.

What you call excuses are really REASONS for the failure last year. That is the big difference in most fans minds.

Unlike YOU I'm willing to give the HC the benefit of the doubt and allow him to progress on his time schedule.

[Lonestar]

I hardly think that Redskins fans are saying "Shanny's got 5 years to turn us around". It just doesnt work like that when you've been sucking for so long.

but then he is a world class coach isn;t he the expectations are a tad higher. :salute::salute::salute::salute:

[dogfish]

but then he is a world class coach isn;t he the expectations are a tad higher. :salute::salute::salute::salute:

JR, did you just admit that shanahan's a better coach than mcdaniels?

:lol:


i'm relatively sure that WASN'T your intention. . .

[Northman]

JR, did you just admit that shanahan's a better coach than mcdaniels?

:lol:


i'm relatively sure that WASN'T your intention. . .


Fing priceless. :lol:

In one fatal swoop he says Shanny is a mastermind while telling us McD is crap. SO EPIC WIN! hahahahaha

[Lonestar]

JR, did you just admit that shanahan's a better coach than mcdaniels?

:lol:


i'm relatively sure that WASN'T your intention. . .

that is a given, I've never implied that he was not.

I just think mikey was way overdue for a real GM and DC to be put into place.

Given Josh a few years and we can revisit this question.

I like the energy and vision that he has brought to the TEAM, something that mikey seemed to have forgotten the past decade.

I do not think you will ever find a comment that I thought mikey was not a great OC . It is past that that I have my doubts. Peter Principle seemed to catch up with him after the Super Bowls but then we also had a real DC on board and maybe even a real GM. Do not remember who was the designated GM at the time.

But we were making intelligent player decisions then and had a real defense also.

[Lonestar]

priceless. :lol:

In one fatal swoop he says Shanny is a mastermind while telling us McD is crap. SO EPIC WIN! hahahahaha

just where do you think I said that? here is the original



Quote:
Originally Posted by Northman View Post
I hardly think that Redskins fans are saying "Shanny's got 5 years to turn us around". It just doesnt work like that when you've been sucking for so long.

but then he is a world class coach isn't he the expectations are a tad higher.

[jhildebrand]

What you call excuses are really REASONS for the failure last year. That is the big difference in most fans minds.

So tell me what the reasons are right now that cause you to see this team to be worse this year despite it no longer being a new system, McDaniels is no longer a rookie, etc....



Unlike YOU I'm willing to give the HC the benefit of the doubt and allow him to progress on his time schedule.

Funny, I was going off McDaniels word last year (this team will make the playoffs) and I am going off of his words now that he is out to win now! Why shouldn't I be holding him accountable? :confused: Nobody is making him say any of these things.

[Lonestar]

So tell me what the reasons are right now that cause you to see this team to be worse this year despite it no longer being a new system, McDaniels is no longer a rookie, etc....



Funny, I was going off McDaniels word last year (this team will make the playoffs) and I am going off of his words now that he is out to win now! Why shouldn't I be holding him accountable? :confused: Nobody is making him say any of these things.


Yes the first season under the new scheme is all but done.

we had spectacular failures in certain areas.

Defense melted down late in the year for LOTS of reasons.

the OLINE that was so great the year before sucked mainly because it was not designed for the PBS that Josh had installed.

Why you ask Not sure but I'm pretty sure that he asked Dennison if they could do it before going along and doing it. Regardless it failed WHOM ever was responsible for it.

We now have an almost NEW OLINE with at least 40% of the starters new this year, we also have a new coaching staff for it. Should be an improvement IF they can get on the same page consistently and IF both Harris and Clady show up this year near their old selves.

The WR core while having a lot of potential still needs to get in sync with the timing and routes of it.

RB well that is one of the gazillion dollar questions is it not.

If you think that Josh is not into winning now, then you are wrong in your thoughts.

But winning now is not always in JUST his hands. the guys on the field actually play the game as well as the team across the field.


I think we will see a more consistent team this year by the bye week and from that point on I expect us to be a much better team than this past year. Will it be enough to win out another big dollar question.

I'm willing to give the guy and what he is building a chance here to win a lot of games. I'm not going to jump on any failures in that goal this year. After that we will see.

I believe in how he is building the team, Via the draft something we stopped doing in about 1999 and tried in vain to restart in 2006. by then it was TO late to save mikey.

[claymore]

Yes the first season under the new scheme is all but done.

we had spectacular failures in certain areas.

Defense melted down late in the year for LOTS of reasons.

the OLINE that was so great the year before sucked mainly because it was not designed for the PBS that Josh had installed.

Why you ask Not sure but I'm pretty sure that he asked Dennison if they could do it before going along and doing it. Regardless it failed WHOM ever was responsible for it.

We now have an almost NEW OLINE with at least 40% of the starters new this year, we also have a new coaching staff for it. Should be an improvement IF they can get on the same page consistently and IF both Harris and Clady show up this year near their old selves.

The WR core while having a lot of potential still needs to get in sync with the timing and routes of it.

RB well that is one of the gazillion dollar questions is it not.

If you think that Josh is not into winning now, then you are wrong in your thoughts.

But winning now is not always in JUST his hands. the guys on the field actually play the game as well as the team across the field.


I think we will see a more consistent team this year by the bye week and from that point on I expect us to be a much better team than this past year. Will it be enough to win out another big dollar question.

I'm willing to give the guy and what he is building a chance here to win a lot of games. I'm not going to jump on any failures in that goal this year. After that we will see.

I believe in how he is building the team, Via the draft something we stopped doing in about 1999 and tried in vain to restart in 2006. by then it was TO late to save mikey.

Bottom line, we should have a better record than last year.

[Dean]

I can't help but agree with you on this one.:confused:

[NightTrainLayne]

You be wrong. Slowitt was named DC and then a few
Weeks later bates was hired as assistant D over slowitt reporting to mikey.
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No. YOU are wrong.

Bates replaced Coyer, and then was replaced by SLOWIK. . ..I can't stand the *******, but I think that making fun of professional's names is kind of childish.

When Shanny promoted Slowik, he offered Bates the position of LB coach, but Bates refused.


2007
In early January 2007, Bates was signed on by the Denver Broncos to replace Larry Coyer as the defensive coordinator. However, Defensive Backs coach Bob Slowik was promoted to the defensive coordinator position (nominal), and Bates was named "Assistant Head Coach/Defense." In the 2007 season, the Broncos defense went from 9th ranked in the league in scoring in 2006 to 29th in 2007 as of week 13. On January 8th, 2008 Bates announced he was leaving the Denver Broncos. [3]

[TXBRONC]

No. YOU are wrong.

Bates replaced Coyer, and then was replaced by SLOWIK. . ..I can't stand the *******, but I think that making fun of professional's names is kind of childish.
2007

When Shanny promoted Slowik, he offered Bates the position of LB coach, but Bates refused.


In early January 2007, Bates was signed on by the Denver Broncos to replace Larry Coyer as the defensive coordinator. However, Defensive Backs coach Bob Slowik was promoted to the defensive coordinator position (nominal), and Bates was named "Assistant Head Coach/Defense." In the 2007 season, the Broncos defense went from 9th ranked in the league in scoring in 2006 to 29th in 2007 as of week 13. On January 8th, 2008 Bates announced he was leaving the Denver Broncos. [3]



Who was hired first isn't as important as who was incharge of the defense imo. The bottom line is that Bates was brought in to oversee the defense. We installed his defensive scheme, not Slowik's.

That aside it sure doesn't make any sense to promote guy to defensive coordinator and then few later more or less demote him by bringing in someone else to be the Assistant Head Coach/Defense.

[Lonestar]

No. YOU are wrong.

Bates replaced Coyer, and then was replaced by SLOWIK. . ..I can't stand the *******, but I think that making fun of professional's names is kind of childish.

When Shanny promoted Slowik, he offered Bates the position of LB coach, but Bates refused.

went back to try and find the pressers that the broncos used to keep on thier web site but all but 2010 has been canned.

I also went back to mania and could only find something like what your quoted above. I could not find a thread that was about slow being appointed DC as a stand alone.


Broncos | Team will hire Bates to lead defense
Wed, 10 Jan 2007 20:25:03 -0800

Jeff Legwold, of the Rocky Mountain News, reports the Denver Broncos are expected to hire former Miami Dolphins and Green Bay Packers defensive coordinator Jim Bates. He is expected to be named assistant head coach/defense, according to sources. Broncos secondary coach Bob Slowik is also expected to be given the title of defensive coordinator.

I did send a email to a writer that I have talked to before and this was his response.



I don't remember it that way. I think Shanahan wanted Jim Bates to fix his defense immediately. (jeremy Bates was already here). No one ever considered nice-guy Bob Slowick a defensive coordinator. Shanahan gave him that title, and then later the job because Shanahan wanted to run the defense, too.

Bates didn't work out for a few reasons, one of them was he was the one primarily responsible for drafting Jarvis Moss and Tim Crowder in the first two rounds.

So I stand corrected.

[silkamilkamonico]

Sure McDaniels could do worse and keep his job. BUT we are fans and we want something, and expect, something different.

I've been saying this since 2002. How come you people are just now figuring this out?

[jhildebrand]

I've been saying this since 2002. How come you people are just now figuring this out?

:D

Hey, I wanted Shanahan gone when he was flirting with Florida. That, IMO, would have been a much cleaner break! No Cutler, No Marshall, and we would be 4 seasons into it. :tsk:

[silkamilkamonico]

I'm not sure how Shanahan got in this thread, but he better push for a .500 record this season or he will go into next season on the hot seat.

[jhildebrand]

I'm not sure how Shanahan got in this thread, but he better push for a .500 record this season or he will go into next season on the hot seat.

Shanahan on the hot seat or McDaniels?

Quite honestly, I think McD has this entire year regardless. It will be season 3 with Tebow that will decide his fate as HC of the Broncos. Shanahan wont be on the hot seat for this season. He is in a much tougher division and it is (ready for it?) his first season, new coaches, new scheme, new system, etc....:rolleyes:

All that aside, it doesn't change the fact that expectations shouldn't be any less than 8-8.

[silkamilkamonico]

Quite honestly, I think McD has this entire year regardless. It will be season 3 with Tebow that will decide his fate as HC of the Broncos. Shanahan wont be on the hot seat for this season. He is in a much tougher division and it is (ready for it?) his first season, new coaches, new scheme, new system, etc....:rolleyes:

All that aside, it doesn't change the fact that expectations shouldn't be any less than 8-8.

My argument is for the people trying to argue that McDaniels should be on the hot seat if this year is bad.

Consider Shanahan though, supposed offensive genius. Has been given total control and made multiple decisions that have changed the identity, and decisions that show he wants to win now. Rightfully so.

The question marks come with him tinkering, and completely changing the scheme of the defense, which was top 10 last year and legit. He's also alienated their star defensive player in Albert Haynesworth, which has caused discension among him and his teamamtes. He should not have touched the defense, which is a lot better than he could have ever hoped to put together in Denver, and worked on the offense.

This is an important year for Shanahan much in the same way many people though last year was very important for McDaniels. If people are understanding of the situation and allowing McDaniels the 3 years after his hiring, than this post doesn't apply to you. :)

[jhildebrand]

My argument is for the people trying to argue that McDaniels should be on the hot seat if this year is bad.

Consider Shanahan though, supposed offensive genius. Has been given total control and made multiple decisions that have changed the identity, and decisions that show he wants to win now. Rightfully so.

The question marks come with him tinkering, and completely changing the scheme of the defense, which was top 10 last year and legit. He's also alienated their star defensive player in Albert Haynesworth, which has caused discension among him and his teamamtes. He should not have touched the defense, which is a lot better than he could have ever hoped to put together in Denver, and worked on the offense.

This is an important year for Shanahan much in the same way many people though last year was very important for McDaniels. If people are understanding of the situation and allowing McDaniels the 3 years after his hiring, than this post doesn't apply to you. :)

Im on board with that. I will say all the roster tinkering and mass overhaul's only serves to shorten the time these guys might have had. Ultimately the NFL is win soon or be gone.

As for our record this year, I don't think expectations should be less than 9-7. A team should improve. However, I could foresee a scenario where this team has a worse record this year but gets better.

As long as we are getting better, that's all I care about!

[Lonestar]

Im on board with that. I will say all the roster tinkering and mass overhaul's only serves to shorten the time these guys might have had. Ultimately the NFL is win soon or be gone.

As for our record this year, I don't think expectations should be less than 9-7. A team should improve. However, I could foresee a scenario where this team has a worse record this year but gets better.

As long as we are getting better, that's all I care about!


I do not read the win or your gone theory.

Perhaps in some cities it has been that way but in the Good franchises like ours, NE, PIT, the owners realize that quick is rarely the way to go.

In those really weak cities like CLE, WAS, DAL, CIN, OAK where the owners change coaches like most of us change underwear they see the constant turn over does nothing to fix the underling issue OF change.

Unless you strike Gold with a HC and everything falls into place in that first year all that is accomplished is another couple of years drafting top talent and going nowhere.

I do not think that Pat is going to fall into that trap like synder has.

[honz]

My argument is for the people trying to argue that McDaniels should be on the hot seat if this year is bad.

Consider Shanahan though, supposed offensive genius. Has been given total control and made multiple decisions that have changed the identity, and decisions that show he wants to win now. Rightfully so.

The question marks come with him tinkering, and completely changing the scheme of the defense, which was top 10 last year and legit. He's also alienated their star defensive player in Albert Haynesworth, which has caused discension among him and his teamamtes. He should not have touched the defense, which is a lot better than he could have ever hoped to put together in Denver, and worked on the offense.

This is an important year for Shanahan much in the same way many people though last year was very important for McDaniels. If people are understanding of the situation and allowing McDaniels the 3 years after his hiring, than this post doesn't apply to you. :)
Nothing to do with your post, rather your adopted Bronco. We know you are not ******* Tim Tebow. He is a pure and blessed virgin.

[jhildebrand]

I do not read the win or your gone theory.

Perhaps in some cities it has been that way but in the Good franchises like ours, NE, PIT, the owners realize that quick is rarely the way to go.

In those really weak cities like CLE, WAS, DAL, CIN, OAK where the owners change coaches like most of us change underwear they see the constant turn over does nothing to fix the underling issue OF change.

Unless you strike Gold with a HC and everything falls into place in that first year all that is accomplished is another couple of years drafting top talent and going nowhere.

I do not think that Pat is going to fall into that trap like synder has.

Wade Phillips was given how long? :confused: Pitt had already had Cowher long before we hired Shanahan.

Reeves and Shanahan were retained for the time they were because they won big early on!

[gobroncsnv]

Is this still a thread about Ayers?

[JDL]

My argument is for the people trying to argue that McDaniels should be on the hot seat if this year is bad.

Consider Shanahan though, supposed offensive genius. Has been given total control and made multiple decisions that have changed the identity, and decisions that show he wants to win now. Rightfully so.

The question marks come with him tinkering, and completely changing the scheme of the defense, which was top 10 last year and legit. He's also alienated their star defensive player in Albert Haynesworth, which has caused discension among him and his teamamtes. He should not have touched the defense, which is a lot better than he could have ever hoped to put together in Denver, and worked on the offense.

This is an important year for Shanahan much in the same way many people though last year was very important for McDaniels. If people are understanding of the situation and allowing McDaniels the 3 years after his hiring, than this post doesn't apply to you. :)

Ken Wisenhunt - NFC Champions 2nd year (took over 5-11 team)
Rex Ryan - AFC Championship game 1st year (9-7 team same as year before, but got team going strong down the stretch run)
Mike Smith - took a 4-12 team to 11-5 1st year
John Harbaugh - took a 5-11 team to 11-5 1st year
Wade Phillips - took 9-7 team to 13-3 1st year
Mike McCarthy - took 4-12 team to 8-8, then 13-3 1st two years
Tony Sparano - took a 1-15 team to 11-5 1st year
Sean Payton - took a 3-13 team to 10-6 1st year
Mike Tomlin - took an 8-8 team to 10-6 1st year, won Super Bowl 2nd year

Not only should be he be on the hot seat, he should be fired if he has a bad year this year. Seriously people, what NFL are some of you watching? Why the hell does a coach need 3 years? It didn't take the most successful coaches/teams today that long. Hell, Mike Shanahan went 13-3 his 2nd year. Absolutely no damn reason we should have to wait around for success. No damn good reason at all. If we go 4-12, 5-11 - no progress... then there is no reason to continue with the McDaniels experiment.

[silkamilkamonico]

Ken Wisenhunt - NFC Champions 2nd year (took over 5-11 team)
Rex Ryan - AFC Championship game 1st year (9-7 team same as year before, but got team going strong down the stretch run)
Mike Smith - took a 4-12 team to 11-5 1st year
John Harbaugh - took a 5-11 team to 11-5 1st year
Wade Phillips - took 9-7 team to 13-3 1st year
Mike McCarthy - took 4-12 team to 8-8, then 13-3 1st two years
Tony Sparano - took a 1-15 team to 11-5 1st year
Sean Payton - took a 3-13 team to 10-6 1st year
Mike Tomlin - took an 8-8 team to 10-6 1st year, won Super Bowl 2nd year

Not only should be he be on the hot seat, he should be fired if he has a bad year this year. Seriously people, what NFL are some of you watching? Why the hell does a coach need 3 years? It didn't take the most successful coaches/teams today that long. Hell, Mike Shanahan went 13-3 his 2nd year. Absolutely no damn reason we should have to wait around for success. No damn good reason at all. If we go 4-12, 5-11 - no progress... then there is no reason to continue with the McDaniels experiment.

Congratulations for placing the expectations of Josh McDaniels in the 1% of NFL coaches who actually succeeded immediately. This logic is why organizations like Buffalo, Cleveland, Washington, Detroit, Oakland, and countless other organizations have gone through extended or prolonged periods of winless seasons, or utter turmoil.

On top of that, I'll go ahead and place your Mike Smith, Mike Tomlin, Sean Payton, and Tony Sparano in the "overrated" category, for following up their successful seasons with missing the playoffs. not to mention a handful of the coaches you mention road the coattails of what was already a set in stone team identity or organization, something Denver was not when McDaniels took over.

Maybe the Mike Shanahan experiment failed miserably, considering after his immediate success and the retirement of the GOAT#7, didn't do jack shit since.

LMAO

[dogfish]

Ken Wisenhunt - NFC Champions 2nd year (took over 5-11 team)
Rex Ryan - AFC Championship game 1st year (9-7 team same as year before, but got team going strong down the stretch run)
Mike Smith - took a 4-12 team to 11-5 1st year
John Harbaugh - took a 5-11 team to 11-5 1st year
Wade Phillips - took 9-7 team to 13-3 1st year
Mike McCarthy - took 4-12 team to 8-8, then 13-3 1st two years
Tony Sparano - took a 1-15 team to 11-5 1st year
Sean Payton - took a 3-13 team to 10-6 1st year
Mike Tomlin - took an 8-8 team to 10-6 1st year, won Super Bowl 2nd year

Not only should be he be on the hot seat, he should be fired if he has a bad year this year. Seriously people, what NFL are some of you watching? Why the hell does a coach need 3 years? It didn't take the most successful coaches/teams today that long. Hell, Mike Shanahan went 13-3 his 2nd year. Absolutely no damn reason we should have to wait around for success. No damn good reason at all. If we go 4-12, 5-11 - no progress... then there is no reason to continue with the McDaniels experiment.

and bill belichick went 6-10, 7-9, 7-9 his first three years in cleveland, then 11-5 and 5-11 before being fired. . . and he took pete carroll's 8-8 patsies team to 5-11 his first year there, too. . .

one winning season in his first six, and he's now one of the most accomplished coaches in the history of the game. . .

not everybody's great right out of the shoot. . . and firing your coach every two years is beyond stupid-- in fact, it's called the al davis method, and its typical result is to make you the laughingstock of the league. . .

i'm not suggesting that mcdaniels get a five year plan, but two is ridiculous-- especially when the new coach wants to run different schemes on both sides of the ball, and half the players we drafted the past two years end up not fitting. . .

[silkamilkamonico]

i'm not suggesting that mcdaniels get a five year plan, but two is ridiculous-- especially when the new coach wants to run different schemes on both sides of the ball, and half the players we drafted the past two years end up not fitting. . .

I agree. I've been a huge McDaniels fan since he was hired and probably backed him significantly more than the average Bronco fan, but I undestand he has to win soon. I look at it like if it takes him 3 years to build a team that will always compete for the division and playoffs and have an organization with a solid infrastructure, I'm willing to be patient for another year or two and see where the organization is at. Stepping stones, and I also understand if he gets us to that point he's going to have to continue to build on that.

I don't want a one year wonder here and there, I want an organization that if it's able to stay relatively healthy will always be strong.

[Lonestar]

Wade Phillips was given how long? :confused: Pitt had already had Cowher long before we hired Shanahan.

Reeves and Shanahan were retained for the time they were because they won big early on!

Wade was nothing but a caretaker. Mikey had already turned the job down when wade took the job.

Pat was not willing to give him total control that he wanted. Pat had an ace in the hole knowing that all he had to do was give up control and mikey would be here in a heartbeat.

So wade is a non starter in this agruement.

As I said PIT was a stable place to work and any new coach there new they were not going to be fired at the whim of the owner. Same thing applies to DEN.

That does not apply to I change coaches like underwear synder.
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[TXBRONC]

If people are understanding of the situation and allowing McDaniels the 3 years after his hiring, than this post doesn't apply to you. :)

It really doesn't matter if people are understanding of the situation because McDaniels is going to get whatever time Bowlen is willing to give him. When McDaniels was hired last year it was probably a pretty safe bet that he was going to get three years to get this team to become a playoff contender. The only thing that could stop that is a five win season or less. Now things have changed a bit. Drafting Tebow like him or not more than likely buys McDaniels an extra year maybe even two.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

Congratulations for placing the expectations of Josh McDaniels in the 1% of NFL coaches who actually succeeded immediately. This logic is why organizations like Buffalo, Cleveland, Washington, Detroit, Oakland, and countless other organizations have gone through extended or prolonged periods of winless seasons, or utter turmoil.

On top of that, I'll go ahead and place your Mike Smith, Mike Tomlin, Sean Payton, and Tony Sparano in the "overrated" category, for following up their successful seasons with missing the playoffs. not to mention a handful of the coaches you mention road the coattails of what was already a set in stone team identity or organization, something Denver was not when McDaniels took over.

Maybe the Mike Shanahan experiment failed miserably, considering after his immediate success and the retirement of the GOAT#7, didn't do jack shit since.

LMAO

The one thing to remember in all this is that we're not one of those perennially shitty teams. We're not Detroit, or Cleveland, or Oakland. We're the Denver F'n Broncos and there wasn't a ton wrong with this team (except for the DC and scheme which was mostly fixed last year - in one year) when McDaniels showed up. The 8-8 record is one thing, the way we finished 2-8 down the stretch is what worries everyone. I can guarantee you that had we started off 2-8 and then gone 6-0 to finish the season, very few fans would be questioning McDaniels the way they are. We'd have something to build on this year. Right now, until proven otherwise, we're still reeling from a 2-8 slide to end the last season.

I like McDaniels and I like what he's trying to do (I do disagree with the way he's handled some things and that's no secret), but he's been given the leeway to do things his way. If there's little to no improvement this season, there will be a lot of grumblings about replacing him. It's just the way things work. If you're a perennial playoff competitor, folks will leave you alone (as it usually should be), if you're not, you're going to be "on the hot seat". Just the way it is. Josh knows this as well as any of us. he knows he has to win now which is why, even though he's drafted his superstar QB of the future in Tebow, Orton is still the starter even though he's a lame duck QB this year because he gives us the best chance to win out of the gate.

[Lonestar]

HP you are wrong on so many levels,since winning the superbowls and tthe HOF retirements.

Red zone performance during the last decade.

Oline only prefromed well between the 20's.

Prima donna QB, TE, WR.

Perhaps the worst D in the history of the franchise. The past couple of years it has never been remotely stellar on both areas passing or running at the same time.

Special teams what a joke other than Elam.
Regularly choked in trap games.

Sucked at winning on the Eastcoast especially early games.

Losing at home.

Seeing all the opposing jerseys at home games because OUR fans knew they could sell their season tickets intead of rooting for the home TEAM. Because they were uninspired by their play.

Club Dove Valley where hitting and learning basics like wrapping up a tackle were assumed to be known and not taught.

We all knew these things but overlooked them because of the Lombardis. We were happy because they won games. Really happy beating OAK like a rented mule but even lately he could not even do that consistenly.

Sorry HP but those are just a few things that were wrong and needed to be fixed.
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[Northman]

The one thing to remember in all this is that we're not one of those perennially shitty teams. We're not Detroit, or Cleveland, or Oakland. We're the Denver F'n Broncos and there wasn't a ton wrong with this team (except for the DC and scheme which was mostly fixed last year - in one year) when McDaniels showed up. The 8-8 record is one thing, the way we finished 2-8 down the stretch is what worries everyone. I can guarantee you that had we started off 2-8 and then gone 6-0 to finish the season, very few fans would be questioning McDaniels the way they are. We'd have something to build on this year. Right now, until proven otherwise, we're still reeling from a 2-8 slide to end the last season.

I like McDaniels and I like what he's trying to do (I do disagree with the way he's handled some things and that's no secret), but he's been given the leeway to do things his way. If there's little to no improvement this season, there will be a lot of grumblings about replacing him. It's just the way things work. If you're a perennial playoff competitor, folks will leave you alone (as it usually should be), if you're not, you're going to be "on the hot seat". Just the way it is. Josh knows this as well as any of us. he knows he has to win now which is why, even though he's drafted his superstar QB of the future in Tebow, Orton is still the starter even though he's a lame duck QB this year because he gives us the best chance to win out of the gate.

Post of the year.

[jhildebrand]

Maybe the Mike Shanahan experiment failed miserably, considering after his immediate success and the retirement of the GOAT#7, didn't do jack shit since.

LMAO

I was an advocate for Mike Shanahan being gone. But this statement couldn't be more wrong. He still won 70%+ of his games minus Elway. He still managaed to get a team to the AFC CG. Still had one of the top offenses year in and out.

[Lonestar]

The reason KO is the starter is because he has worked hard at learning the playbook and has the most exprience with it. He has been developing the timing with his recievers for a longer time.

Lame duck nope, he is playing a contract year. Good for him. If we win because of that fantastic.
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[Lonestar]

Mikeys oline and entire defense got their asses kick in that afccg.

Not much to hang your hat on.

Let me add that over that decade for the most part we were beating up on pernialy weak assed division revivals KC once their OLINE retired sucked. OAK after gruden a total joke SAN until rivers turned it on we owned them.

Sorry but the 70% on the backs of a really weak AFCW just not look quite the same.

And had we been able to stop a TEAM or been able to do much more than kick FG in the red zone just maybe those wins would have been more satisfying.

Sometimes a win is a win but it is hollow if they get their asses kicked every year in the playoffs.
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[Northman]

You forgot Jake's 4 turnovers by himself. Those certainly didnt help us at all.

[jhildebrand]

Mikeys oline and entire defense got their asses kick in that afccg.

Not much to hang your hat on.

Let me add that over that decade for the most part we were beating up on pernialy weak assed division revivals KC once their OLINE retired sucked. OAK after gruden a total joke SAN until rivers turned it on we owned them.

Sorry but the 70% on the backs of a really weak AFCW just not look quite the same.

And had we been able to stop a TEAM or been able to do much more than kick FG in the red zone just maybe those wins would have been more satisfying.

Sometimes a win is a win but it is hollow if they get their asses kicked every year in the playoffs.
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Hmmm I recall Marty having a tough SD team that was SB bound the year we were in the AFC CG. Also, I didn't realize our entire season consisted of 8 games in the division.

Mike lost the Pitt game because he gave up on the run much too quick and Pitt finally figured out our D.

As for the RZ comment, you may want to check your stats! This team didn't start settling in the RZ until the 06 season once Cutler and the youngins were inserted. Even then, your boy McD was MUCH WORSE in the RZ when I didn't think we could be worse!

Finally, I would rather hang my hat on 13-3 in the AFC CG than 8-8 after 6-0.

[silkamilkamonico]

I was an advocate for Mike Shanahan being gone. But this statement couldn't be more wrong. He still won 70%+ of his games minus Elway. He still managaed to get a team to the AFC CG. Still had one of the top offenses year in and out.

It's simply a rebuttal to "immediate success" argument. I don't agree with it either. Jon Gruden had immediate success at Tampa Bay as well. The fact is though, from 1999 to 2009, Denver was last place among AFC West teams in division championships. Nobody cares about competing for second place. We were worse than Oakland, and Kansas City, in division championships.

Denver was the Dominique Wilkins led Atlanta Hawks in the 80's for an entire 10 years. Not good enough to seriously compete, not bad enough to get that player or two to put them over the hump.

He had one strong season in an entire 10 year tenure, and it ended with a blowout playoff loss (again), at home.

[silkamilkamonico]

Finally, I would rather hang my hat on 13-3 in the AFC CG than 8-8 after 6-0.

I don't understand why people hang on up this so much, and then don't mention Shanahan's monumental collapse the season before, which was arguably even worse, even though he finished a paltry 1 game better then McDaniels in the final stretch.

[silkamilkamonico]

The one thing to remember in all this is that we're not one of those perennially shitty teams. We're not Detroit, or Cleveland, or Oakland. We're the Denver F'n Broncos and there wasn't a ton wrong with this team (except for the DC and scheme which was mostly fixed last year - in one year) when McDaniels showed up.

We're the Denver Broncos. We're coming off an entire decade with 1 playoff win, and worst among AFC West teams in division championships. We're not Detroit, Cleveland, or Oakland, but we're also not Indianapolis, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, New England, or San Diego either.

I also completely disagree with you're comment about pieces in place. We had pieces in place for a coach that would have run the ZBS in the WC system, which is a very small % of coaches.

Let's not kid ourselves, the team, and especially offense, wasn't built for a power minded spread coach (nor should it have been).

[Northman]

I don't understand why people hang on up this so much, and then don't mention Shanahan's monumental collapse the season before, which was arguably even worse, even though he finished a paltry 1 game better then McDaniels in the final stretch.

People tend to hang on it because even though Shanny did the same thing the year before the defense was a lot worse, the RB core with injuries a lot worse, and "supposedly" McD was an offensive genius in his own right but actually regressed with the offense. So while the team improved in some areas (thanks to Nolan) it regressed in others when it really shouldnt have.

[silkamilkamonico]

People tend to hang on it because even though Shanny did the same thing the year before the defense was a lot worse, the RB core with injuries a lot worse, and "supposedly" McD was an offensive genius in his own right but actually regressed with the offense. So while the team improved in some areas (thanks to Nolan) it regressed in others when it really shouldnt have.

Yes, I'm going to go ahead and thank Shanny for the record breaking god forsaken defense he gave us. That's another thing nobody seems to bother to bring up, especially when they are trying to argue how terrible Mcdaniels offense was supposedly.

McDaniels was also trying to work with players that didn't fit his system, and in a lot of people eyes did a hell of a job with what he had. Kyle Orton over 4000 yards passing? Wow. Did people strip Tony Dungy's defensive mind when he was in Indianapolis? What about Jon Gruden's offensive mind in Tampa Bay?

[Northman]

Yes, I'm going to go ahead and thank Shanny for the record breaking god forsaken defense he gave us. That's another thing nobody seems to bother to bring up, especially when they are trying to argue how terrible Mcdaniels offense was supposedly.

Not true, at least on my end. Ive long stated that Shanny's time in Denver had run its course because of his lack of fixing the defense. But at the same time i see the same kind of logic that you stated there when it comes to Shanny's post SB success or failures. I mean, despite everything the guy still managed to keep us from being cellar dwellers which although didnt bring anymore titles didnt allow us to be completely trashed either. I think credit should still be given to him for that.


McDaniels was also trying to work with players that didn't fit his system, and in a lot of people eyes did a hell of a job with what he had. Kyle Orton over 4000 yards passing? Wow. Did people strip Tony Dungy's defensive mind when he was in Indianapolis? What about Jon Gruden's offensive mind in Tampa Bay?

Shanahan also got Jake Plummer to play better in the system he had but it doesnt mean that Plummer is a world beater. Orton's 4000 yds passing is really misleading because it was in a controlled system that didnt allow for many risks. Unfortuantely, despite his great year we still regressed on offense in terms of scoring. As for Dungy, yea you bet he took some criticism for his defense not being where it should of been and rightfully so. Eventually he got it where it needed to be so that it could help out Manning and offense but he failed to reach the SB for at least 3-4 years when the defense was the crutch of the problem and it fell on his shoulders as HC. Im sure Gruden faced similiar issues although he had a very nice defense in place and was another case where the defense carried the team rather than vice versa.

In the end its all good. McD now has his players and the QB is in his 2nd year with the same system so we will hopefully see a much improved offense although i still have my doubts about Orton. But for the sake of the franchise and my favorite team i hope McD turns out to be everything that people think he will be.

[Lonestar]

Yes Josh is considered an O genious.

Yes his O regressed compared to the year before.

So what did you logically think it would be better with all the changes that were made?

Right now you are letting emotion overrule your logic thought process.

Mikeys D was his and his alone he put his butt buddy in place to run the D the way he wanted it run.

Nolan did a good job organizing the D but his players gave up on him in those last games. He was exposed as a fraud for his inability to stop the run when it was most important. He ran his starters into the ground players that should have never been there in the first place. They were his choices and his alone.

A lot like coyer great mind that was unable to adjust once exposed.

Let's just see how much better the O is this coming year after a year getting the timing down and being comfortable understanding it.

Y'all just might be surprised IF you can go into it with an OPEN mind and think with you head instead of your woody for anything not mikey.
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[silkamilkamonico]

Not true, at least on my end. Ive long stated that Shanny's time in Denver had run its course because of his lack of fixing the defense. But at the same time i see the same kind of logic that you stated there when it comes to Shanny's post SB success or failures. I mean, despite everything the guy still managed to keep us from being cellar dwellers which although didnt bring anymore titles didnt allow us to be completely trashed either. I think credit should still be given to him for that.

I think that's just a subjective matter of perception. I can see your argument for not being cellar dwellars, but I'm saying "middle of the pack", who gives a ----. I would gladly take a couple steps back for even more forward, but that never happened under Shanahan. It was stale, with absolutely no progression whatsoever. I still he think he either lied to us all, or tried to play us all fools with his "1 player away" logic.




As for Dungy, yea you bet he took some criticism for his defense not being where it should of been and rightfully so. Eventually he got it where it needed to be so that it could help out Manning and offense but he failed to reach the SB for at least 3-4 years when the defense was the crutch of the problem and it fell on his shoulders as HC. Im sure Gruden faced similiar issues although he had a very nice defense in place and was another case where the defense carried the team rather than vice versa.

This is what I'm talking about. Dungy never took criticism for his terrible defenses. The NFL knew that he was running a system (Tampa 2), and was not able to truly get his players for it, or shell out a lot of money, because all of Indy's cap was placed into offense (Manning, 7 other first round contracts). He simplay had to make due.

It's the very same thing with Gruden. He was not giving any money to work with in free agency because of the debt the Glazers had with Manchester United. He had to make due.

I'm not making excuses for McDaniels, because Bowlen is in no way limiting him, but the examples of Gruden and Dungy are a pretty clear cut example as far as I'm concerned, about coaches with offensive/defensive minds, who don't have the players to run their system. It fails.

Bill Parcells? great organization builder. Wade Phillips should be thanking Bill Parcells. it takes him how long to have his team in place? 3 years. He took a hit at 6-10 in Dallas on his way to building what's become a very formidable player talented team.

People look at "coaching" as too linear. There are a lot of elements that make up a great coach. I can assure people one of those elements is NOT, "did they have immediate success"? That's about as misleading as Kyle Orton's 4000 yards passing.

[Northman]

Yes Josh is considered an O genious.

Yes his O regressed compared to the year before.

So what did you logically think it would be better with all the changes that were made?

Right now you are letting emotion overrule your logic thought process.

Mikeys D was his and his alone he put his butt buddy in place to run the D the way he wanted it run.

Nolan did a good job organizing the D but his players gave up on him in those last games. He was exposed as a fraud for his inability to stop the run when it was most important. He ran his starters into the ground players that should have never been there in the first place. They were his choices and his alone.

A lot like coyer great mind that was unable to adjust once exposed.

Let's just see how much better the O is this coming year after a year getting the timing down and being comfortable understanding it.

Y'all just might be surprised IF you can go into it with an OPEN mind and think with you head instead of your woody for anything not mikey.
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Seriously JR, stop with the BS already. There is no emotion here as im just as critical of Shanny as i am with McD. If you want to try and discuss with me on any given Bronco subject knock yourself out. But quit trying to paint this as a anti-Mcd campaign. Ive seen maybe 3 guys on here who have admittedly dont like him in shape or form but thats about the extent of it. Everyone else has been very objective about what McD has done both positive and negative. Stop trolling for gods sake and try to debate like a man for once.

[Northman]

I think that's just a subjective matter of perception. I can see your argument for not being cellar dwellars, but I'm saying "middle of the pack", who gives a ----. I would gladly take a couple steps back for even more forward, but that never happened under Shanahan. It was stale, with absolutely no progression whatsoever. I still he think he either lied to us all, or tried to play us all fools with his "1 player away" logic.

Well, lets be honest. Every coach lies to some extent even McD. Its par for the course. And although i agree that middle of the pack doesnt mean squat in the grand scheme of things i think i as a fan can at least appreciate that we didnt have to suffer all those years like the Raiders and Lions have. At least we had "something" to at least be positive about.



This is what I'm talking about. Dungy never took criticism for his terrible defenses. The NFL knew that he was running a system (Tampa 2), and was not able to truly get his players for it, or shell out a lot of money, because all of Indy's cap was placed into offense (Manning, 7 other first round contracts). He simplay had to make due.

Well, maybe you didnt see the reports or shows but i saw plenty that criticised Dungy's problems on defense. None of which blamed the salary cap although im sure it played some part.


I'm not making excuses for McDaniels, because Bowlen is in no way limiting him, but the examples of Gruden and Dungy are a pretty clear cut example as far as I'm concerned, about coaches with offensive/defensive minds, who don't have the players to run their system. It fails.

Well, i believe Gruden won the SB his first year correct? The offense wasnt mind blowing but it did get the job done and Gruden didnt have to tear down the player personnel to achieve that. Dungy didnt strip out his offense which was very productive before he arrived there so it really fell on the lack of defense which he just couldnt get right until a few years later. McD has continued to change and strip out players which may or may not work in the long run im sure we will see with a better picture this year where we stand.


Bill Parcells? great organization builder. Wade Phillips should be thanking Bill Parcells. it takes him how long to have his team in place? 3 years. He took a hit at 6-10 in Dallas on his way to building what's become a very formidable player talented team.


Cant argue with this, Parcells is great as GM and had some great success as a coach at least early on. Phillips is and was always overrated as a HC. But as we've seen the last couple of years Dallas starts out strong but then flutters down the stretch. Shottenheimer had a lot of great success getting to the playoffs but after that not so much. I ideal thing is to find a coach who has done it and won it. McD is just beginning his journey as a HC but until i see what i believe to be improvements i will continue to be critical of him. Lets hope he can prove me wrong.

[Lonestar]

By saying Josh REGRESSED the offense is in it self comparing Josh to Mikey.

If you are unable to admit that theen there is no use in trying to debate.

You have been so angry about the new regime and the changes made you are not logical. IMHO
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[Northman]

B

You have been so angry about the new regime and the changes made you are not logical. IMHO
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And you would be wrong. I would know better than you how i feel about the regime.

[jhildebrand]

McDaniels was also trying to work with players that didn't fit his system, and in a lot of people eyes did a hell of a job with what he had. Kyle Orton over 4000 yards passing?

What? :confused:

39 of 53 starters were brand new to the team last year and somehow they weren't McDaniels' guys? :confused: COME ON! That roster was and is still is McD's guys.

Like it or not, Orton is McD's guy. No way around that. McD made that bed nobody else.

Finally, McD went on and on with Scott and Al about the 08 offense and how it wasn't 'all that' and how he would make them better immediately! He set the expectation nobody else! McD's unit declined in every way imaginable with HIS GUYS i.e. Orton, Moreno, Gaffney, etc....There wasn't a player on this roster that HE didn't want.

[jhildebrand]

but we're also not Indianapolis, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, New England, or San Diego either.


Not now we're not but from 96-2002 we were!

[jhildebrand]

So what did you logically think it would be better with all the changes that were made?

I expected improvement as McDaniels promised.



He was exposed as a fraud for his inability to stop the run when it was most important.

Wanna make the same sig bet with me that War has? :confused:

[BroncoWave]

Ken Wisenhunt - NFC Champions 2nd year (took over 5-11 team)
Rex Ryan - AFC Championship game 1st year (9-7 team same as year before, but got team going strong down the stretch run)
Mike Smith - took a 4-12 team to 11-5 1st year
John Harbaugh - took a 5-11 team to 11-5 1st year
Wade Phillips - took 9-7 team to 13-3 1st year
Mike McCarthy - took 4-12 team to 8-8, then 13-3 1st two years
Tony Sparano - took a 1-15 team to 11-5 1st year
Sean Payton - took a 3-13 team to 10-6 1st year
Mike Tomlin - took an 8-8 team to 10-6 1st year, won Super Bowl 2nd year

Not only should be he be on the hot seat, he should be fired if he has a bad year this year. Seriously people, what NFL are some of you watching? Why the hell does a coach need 3 years? It didn't take the most successful coaches/teams today that long. Hell, Mike Shanahan went 13-3 his 2nd year. Absolutely no damn reason we should have to wait around for success. No damn good reason at all. If we go 4-12, 5-11 - no progress... then there is no reason to continue with the McDaniels experiment.

Wisenhunt: we'll see how good of a coach he is without Warner and Boldin
Ryan: If not for the Colts and Bengals playing their backups the last 2 weeks, they would have finished 8-8 or 7-9, regressing from the year before
Smith: Terrible example. They were only 5-11 the year before because of the Vick/Petrino disaster. The falcons regressed in his second year.
Harbaugh: inherited a very talented team coming off an off year, and they regressed in his second year
Phillips: Child please, Dallas is loaded with talent and always chokes in the playoffs
McCarthy: also inherited a very good roster
Sporano: team regressed in year two as well
Payton: good coach, but blessed with a top 3 QB
Tomlin: also inherited a great team which regressed after the Super Bowl

[jhildebrand]

Wisenhunt: we'll see how good of a coach he is without Warner and Boldin
Ryan: If not for the Colts and Bengals playing their backups the last 2 weeks, they would have finished 8-8 or 7-9, regressing from the year before
Smith: Terrible example. They were only 5-11 the year before because of the Vick/Petrino disaster. The falcons regressed in his second year.
Harbaugh: inherited a very talented team coming off an off year, and they regressed in his second year
Phillips: Child please, Dallas is loaded with talent and always chokes in the playoffs
McCarthy: also inherited a very good roster
Sporano: team regressed in year two as well
Payton: good coach, but blessed with a top 3 QB
Tomlin: also inherited a great team which regressed after the Super Bowl

A lot of those teams also had MAJOR injuries i.e. Miami, ATL lost Turner for a bulk of the season.

Like Parcells said: you are what your record says you are. This team was 8-8. The others were better in year one know matter how you try to paint it.

Shanahan started 8-8 and then tore it up, as have others. Let's see what McD does this year.

[silkamilkamonico]

Well, i believe Gruden won the SB his first year correct? The offense wasnt mind blowing but it did get the job done and Gruden didnt have to tear down the player personnel to achieve that. Dungy didnt strip out his offense which was very productive before he arrived there so it really fell on the lack of defense which he just couldnt get right until a few years later. McD has continued to change and strip out players which may or may not work in the long run im sure we will see with a better picture this year where we stand.

Gruden won with what was arguably one of the best defenses in the history of the game. The offense was ok, only because TB's defense would go 3 and out almost every other series and the opponents defense simply wore down. People only praising Nolan for our defense, is similiar to saying Monte Kiffin won the SuperBowl for TB, and not Gruden.

Dungy's Colts had almost 65%-70% of their salary cap on the offensive side of the ball. The defense was criticized and rightfully so, but I never once heard how Dungy was losing his edge on the defensive side of the ball. And in relation to the last point, did Tony Dungy win the SuperBowl, or should it have really been accredited to Tom Moore?

IMO, McDaniels will have 2 years (including this year) to show something. If after next season there isn't progression or building points, my view on him will go from backing him to we need a new direction.

[silkamilkamonico]

What? :confused:

39 of 53 starters were brand new to the team last year and somehow they weren't McDaniels' guys? :confused: COME ON! That roster was and is still is McD's guys.

This is an absurd statement. Are you telling me that McDaniels was able to find his guys out of a pool of 3+ years drafting and free agency periods, or 1 draft session and 1 pool of free agent periods. Because your making a comparison of close to 400 or so players, and 2000+ players. Thats a HUGE difference, and completely ignorant to ignore.

They were simply Mcdaniels guys only because he had 2 months to find players, and they were the only players availble. To ignore that is just stupid.




Like it or not, Orton is McD's guy. No way around that. McD made that bed nobody else.

This is just f'n stupid and blinding. Are you telling me, that of all the QB's to come out of college and play in the NFL, Mcdaniels would choose Kyle Orton? That's absurd.

LMAO

Again. He chose Kyle Orton because Orton was one of the 15% QB's that were actually available to him.




Finally, McD went on and on with Scott and Al about the 08 offense and how it wasn't 'all that' and how he would make them better immediately! He set the expectation nobody else! McD's unit declined in every way imaginable with HIS GUYS i.e. Orton, Moreno, Gaffney, etc....There wasn't a player on this roster that HE didn't want.

That's a complete or blinding lie, and you know it.

[jhildebrand]

This is an absurd statement. Are you telling me that McDaniels was able to find his guys out of a pool of 3+ years drafting and free agency periods, or 1 draft session and 1 pool of free agent periods. Because your making a comparison of close to 400 or so players, and 2000+ players. Thats a HUGE difference, and completely ignorant to ignore.

Calling it ignorant doesn't make it so. McDaniels found Dawkins and Goodman and when we were 6-0 he was a GOD for his "moves." Now in retrospect he still doesn't have "his guys."

Please!!!!! This is the weakest of attempts to make excuses for the guy. Again we had 39 of 53 guys new to to the team last year alone. Guys HE picked. Nobody made him get rid of people like Leach for Paxton!

Then there is the issue or fact that he chose to play certain people over others i.e. Jordan over Hillis and "his guys" against the Chiefs. He made that decision alone and it cost him.



They were simply Mcdaniels guys only because he had 2 months to find players, and they were the only players availble. To ignore that is just stupid.


What is stupid is acting like he had to SHOP Cutler. Or bring in a Lonnie Paxton over a perfectly apt Mike Leach.




This is just f'n stupid and blinding. Are you telling me, that of all the QB's to come out of college and play in the NFL, Mcdaniels would choose Kyle Orton? That's absurd.

Look at the quotes regarding Orton. McDaniels came out and said he was the guy they wanted despite the fact we knew he was wanting Quinn as well which was denied but somehow became a Bronco a year later.

Again, McDaniels precipitated the situation that brought Orton here in the first place. Whether he "wanted" him or not is moot. Orton is here by McDaniels doing and wouldn't be otherwise. Just like Mike went down in part for tying his hitch to Plummer McDaniels will be judged, in a big way, for bringing Orton in. You act as if McD was handed the roster he played with last year and had no say. That in itself is laughable. :lol:




Again. He chose Kyle Orton because Orton was one of the 15% QB's that were actually available to him.

Again, HE PUT HIMSELF IN THAT POSITION! Nobody forced his hand to select from a minority of QB's around the league. He doesn't get a pass for it. He made that situation on his own accord.



That's a complete or blinding lie, and you know it.

Really? :confused: Name me one player who was on this team last season McDaniels didn't want and HOW COME they were here despite he not wanting them!

[silkamilkamonico]

Calling it ignorant doesn't make it so. McDaniels found Dawkins and Goodman and when we were 6-0 he was a GOD for his "moves." Now in retrospect he still doesn't have "his guys."

He made a couple moves that panned out. He made a couple moves that didn't pan out. Oh no, he's on par with the other 100% coaches who have ever coached in the NFL.



Please!!!!! This is the weakest of attempts to make excuses for the guy. Again we had 39 of 53 guys new to to the team last year alone. Guys HE picked. Nobody made him get rid of people like Leach for Paxton!

So you are saying because he was able to get Paxton, he chose Kyle Ortyon over Tom Brady and Peyton Manning? And my attempt is weak? LMAO



Then there is the issue or fact that he chose to play certain people over others i.e. Jordan over Hillis and "his guys" against the Chiefs. He made that decision alone and it cost him.

Oh no, he made a decision that cost him an NFL game. Welcome to the 100% of other coaches who coached in the NFL.




What is stupid is acting like he had to SHOP Cutler. Or bring in a Lonnie Paxton over a perfectly apt Mike Leach.

He chose Kyle Orton over Cutler, and with the benefit of hindsight, made the right choice. Did you see when Bill Belichek chose Tom Brady over a perfectly apt Drew Bledsoe. What an idiot he was!




Look at the quotes regarding Orton. McDaniels came out and said he was the guy they wanted despite the fact we knew he was wanting Quinn as well which was denied but somehow became a Bronco a year later.

Orton was one of the few QB's available. I don't understand why that's so hard to comprehend. Tom Brady wasn't available. Neither was Peyton Manning. Neither was roughly 20+, or 75%+, of the starting capable QB's in the NFL. Yet you consider Kyle Orton "his guy" because he ended up here, and not Tom Brady?



Again, McDaniels precipitated the situation that brought Orton here in the first place. Whether he "wanted" him or not is moot. Orton is here by McDaniels doing and wouldn't be otherwise. Just like Mike went down in part for tying his hitch to Plummer McDaniels will be judged, in a big way, for bringing Orton in. You act as if McD was handed the roster he played with last year and had no say. That in itself is laughable. :lol:

No he did not. This has been hashed, and hashed, and is not true at all. It was equally Mcdaniels, and equally Cutler, and equally Bowln, who made the final decision to trade him.





Again, HE PUT HIMSELF IN THAT POSITION! Nobody forced his hand to select from a minority of QB's around the league. He doesn't get a pass for it. He made that situation on his own accord.

No he did not. This has been hashed, and hashed, and is not true at all. It was equally Mcdaniels, and equally Cutler, and equally Bowln, who made the final decision to trade him.





Really? :confused: Name me one player who was on this team last season McDaniels didn't want and HOW COME they were here despite he not wanting them!

Yea. Brandon Marshall and Tony Scheffler, who was even stated was on the trading block before the season. Do you not pay attention to anything?

[jhildebrand]

He made a couple moves that panned out. He made a couple moves that didn't pan out. Oh no, he's on par with the other 100% coaches who have ever coached in the NFL.

Why are you changing the argument? :confused:

I think we all know why :lol:

It wasn't if he made moves that panned out or not. It was whether or not the roster he went into the season with was his or not! Nice try though. Keep telling yourself this isn't his roster.



So you are saying because he was able to get Paxton, he chose Kyle Ortyon over Tom Brady and Peyton Manning? And my attempt is weak? LMAO

HE CHOSE ORTON. How is that so hard to comprehend. After saying unequivocally Cutler is our QB. We wont trade Cutler. He did. Nobody made him do that. Nobody made him shop him at the draft and try to orchestrate a three way deal. Orton ended up here because a rookie coach got caught red handed.

I am not a Cutler lover either. In fact, I turned on him long before any had after his idiotic appearance on Best Damn.

To cry about the fact that McD was limited in who he could get is stupid in itself because it negates the fact that it wouldn't have been necessary.



Oh no, he made a decision that cost him an NFL game. Welcome to the 100% of other coaches who coached in the NFL.

Again changing the point of the argument.



He chose Kyle Orton over Cutler, and with the benefit of hindsight, made the right choice. Did you see when Bill Belichek chose Tom Brady over a perfectly apt Drew Bledsoe. What an idiot he was!

Do you even watch football let alone follow it? :confused: Belichick never CHOSE Brady over Bledsoe. Belichick is even on the record saying he shouldn't get so much credit for the Brady pick because if he knew Brady would be what he turned out to be he wouldn't have waited until the 7th to draft him.

Finally, back to your point: Brady went in because Bledsoe almost lost a kidney and was injured bad. There was no choice in the matter.



Orton was one of the few QB's available. I don't understand why that's so hard to comprehend.

Quantifying who was available still doesn't matter. Orton ended up here because of McDaniels. McDaniels declared Orton his guy and the one he "wanted all along." Now either you believe that or McD is caught in yet another lie! Which is it?

The fact is McDaniels put himself in that limited position trying to get his boy Cassell.



Tom Brady wasn't available. Neither was Peyton Manning. Neither was roughly 20+, or 75%+, of the starting capable QB's in the NFL. Yet you consider Kyle Orton "his guy" because he ended up here, and not Tom Brady?

You are the one bringing up Brady and Manning. Those are guys drafted by their teams. McD could have picked a guy last year but didn't. Why do you suppose that was? :confused: BECAUSE ORTON WAS "HIS" Guy!

Caldwell didn't go into Indy and say he wanted "his" guy. Belichick, as I have pointed out, didn't pick Brady over Bledsoe. He lucked into it through injury.

Ryan, a rookie HC like McD, went out and got his guy Sanchez. But now somehow Orton is simply here by osmosis and McD wanted no part of it :lol:




No he did not. This has been hashed, and hashed, and is not true at all. It was equally Mcdaniels, and equally Cutler, and equally Bowln, who made the final decision to trade him.

I agreed with the trade. However, we ALL know Cutler wouldn't have had any leverage nor wanted out had McD not done what he did FIRST. It was precipitated by McD. That is clear to everybody outside of Pidgeon Valley's propoganda machine.

[QUOTE=silkamilkamonico;1033563]
Yea. Brandon Marshall and Tony Scheffler, who was even stated was on the trading block before the season. Do you not pay attention to anything?

He had better offers for Scheffler last year. Why didnt he take them? He could have traded Marshall last year. He didn't. HE chose to have those guys on the team DESPITE the risk of their malcontent. Again, His choice.

You failed to tell me why they were here despite McD not wanting them :lol:

[silkamilkamonico]

Why are you changing the argument? :confused:

I think we all know why :lol:

It wasn't if he made moves that panned out or not. It was whether or not the roster he went into the season with was his or not! Nice try though. Keep telling yourself this isn't his roster.


This is his roster like first Parcell teams are his roster. It will change. Don't sit here and pretend he has "his team", and there will be no more changes.



HE CHOSE ORTON. How is that so hard to comprehend. After saying unequivocally Cutler is our QB. We wont trade Cutler. He did. Nobody made him do that. Nobody made him shop him at the draft and try to orchestrate a three way deal. Orton ended up here because a rookie coach got caught red handed.

Chose Orton over who? Jason Campbell? So would I, and probably 99% of the other coaches in the NFL. Great argument there.



To cry about the fact that McD was limited in who he could get is stupid in itself because it negates the fact that it wouldn't have been necessary.

I'm crying about McDaniels having a limited selection. You're crying because he chose Orton over Brady and Manning.





Do you even watch football let alone follow it? :confused: Belichick never CHOSE Brady over Bledsoe. Belichick is even on the record saying he shouldn't get so much credit for the Brady pick because if he knew Brady would be what he turned out to be he wouldn't have waited until the 7th to draft him.

Yes, he did. Bledsoe was injured. Brady filled in. Bledsoe came back healthy. Belichek chose Brady to continue playing over Bledsoe. whoOPS...! It's not that hard of a concept to understand, really.



Finally, back to your point: Brady went in because Bledsoe almost lost a kidney and was injured bad. There was no choice in the matter.

yes, he did. "Do you not follow football". Here's an article on it.

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/01/31/sports/pro-football-brady-will-start-for-patriots.html




Quantifying who was available still doesn't matter. Orton ended up here because of McDaniels. McDaniels declared Orton his guy and the one he "wanted all along." Now either you believe that or McD is caught in yet another lie! Which is it?

LMAO at you thinking gus like Peyton Manning, Drew Brees, and Tom Brady are actually available for trade.



The fact is McDaniels put himself in that limited position trying to get his boy Cassell.

No, he didn't. That's been completely shot down too. Mcdaniels was given a phone call, informed Cutler about the possibility and teams were calling, and Cutler cried. End of story. You obviously were not following along with that situation.




You are the one bringing up Brady and Manning. Those are guys drafted by their teams. McD could have picked a guy last year but didn't. Why do you suppose that was? :confused: BECAUSE ORTON WAS "HIS" Guy!

Because Josh Freeman was the next available, and thanking god, wasn't his guy.
I would say 99% of NFL GM's scouts would take Orton over Freeman too. Another terrible arguement.



Caldwell didn't go into Indy and say he wanted "his" guy. Belichick, as I have pointed out, didn't pick Brady over Bledsoe. He lucked into it through injury.

Why would Caldwell chose his guy over arguably the greatest?



Ryan, a rookie HC like McD, went out and got his guy Sanchez. But now somehow Orton is simply here by osmosis and McD wanted no part of it :lol:

Again, you insinutating out of all the guys McDaniels could have had, he somehow choose Orton over Manning and Brady.






I agreed with the trade. However, we ALL know Cutler wouldn't have had any leverage nor wanted out had McD not done what he did FIRST. It was precipitated by McD. That is clear to everybody outside of Pidgeon Valley's propoganda machine.

Again. You are completely wrong. Cutler was traded because he would not return any of Bowlen's phone calls. Can you imagine Tom Brady not returning his owner/Boss's phone calls?




He had better offers for Scheffler last year. Why didnt he take them? He could have traded Marshall last year. He didn't. HE chose to have those guys on the team DESPITE the risk of their malcontent. Again, His choice.

You failed to tell me why they were here despite McD not wanting them :lol:

No, Scheffler did not have better offers. That's why he didn't take them. He didn't trade Marshall, because player value goes down once camp starts. There's a reason why blockbusters happen in the offseason 99% of the time.

[Lonestar]

And you would be wrong. I would know better than you how i feel about the regime.

for someone that thinks I have not had a Relevant post in a long time I notice you have a lot of rebuttal for them.

[Tned]

Seriously JR, stop with the BS already. There is no emotion here as im just as critical of Shanny as i am with McD. If you want to try and discuss with me on any given Bronco subject knock yourself out. But quit trying to paint this as a anti-Mcd campaign. Ive seen maybe 3 guys on here who have admittedly dont like him in shape or form but thats about the extent of it. Everyone else has been very objective about what McD has done both positive and negative. Stop trolling for gods sake and try to debate like a man for once.

That "painting" is even more ludicrous considering how you argued on the "pro McDaniels" side of pretty much all of his moves last off season and during the season.

The digs and stereotyping, rather than just having an open and honest debate, gets old, doesn't it?

[BroncoWave]

A lot of those teams also had MAJOR injuries i.e. Miami, ATL lost Turner for a bulk of the season.

Like Parcells said: you are what your record says you are. This team was 8-8. The others were better in year one know matter how you try to paint it.

Shanahan started 8-8 and then tore it up, as have others. Let's see what McD does this year.

So Sporano and Smith get a pass due to injuries but McD is expected to do great regardless of how many injuries we may rack up?

That's not hypocritical or anything! :lol:

[jhildebrand]

This is his roster like first Parcell teams are his roster. It will change. Don't sit here and pretend he has "his team", and there will be no more changes.

Name me one place where I said this roster is done moving? :confused: Do you even stop to read the post, let alone breathe, before replying?

The fact is I NEVER once said this roster is done. I simply stated the roster last year was HIS. They were his guys. PERIOD. I don't even know why you try to argue it. It is childish to be honest with you. The fact is 39 out of 53 guys were new meaning it was HIS team. I never said it was a finished product. Second, there was almost as much turnover this year....again HIS roster with HIS guys.

Some here try to insist the reason for the slide was McD didn't have HIS guys and he was saddled with a roster left over from the previous regime.

Again, I point to the fact that when this team was 6-0 McD was a GOD and his moves were unquestionable and he got ALL the credit. It was only AFTERWARDS that we started to hear all the bull shit excuses that people threw out i.e. new coach, new scheme, new players, not his players, etc...



Chose Orton over who? Jason Campbell? So would I, and probably 99% of the other coaches in the NFL. Great argument there.

He made his bed with Orton. Furthermore, McD could have drafted someone last year. Mike Smith got Matt Ryan and played him. Harbaugh got Flacco and played him. There was NOTHING stopping McD from taking a QB, had he wanted one, but he didn't. Why? Because he had Orton and believed in Orton. Why do you suppose he drafted Tebow? For shits and giggles? No because he knows Orton's limitations and saw them last year.

It doesn't change the fact that Cutler wasn't a McD guy and Orton was!



I'm crying about McDaniels having a limited selection. You're crying because he chose Orton over Brady and Manning.

Where the #### did I once say he should have got Brady or Manning. That is STUPID. But apparently you don't know that. Show me one QUOTE where I even insinuated getting those guys was a reality.

You are crying because of the limited selection and I simply pointing out that McD forced himself into a situation where he had to choose from a limited pool of QB's. There is a reason Chicago didn't care to keep Orton. Do you care to venture a guess as to what that was?

You really should try sticking to the argument at hand, reading the posts, and refrain from putting words in my mouth.:rolleyes:



Yes, he did. Bledsoe was injured. Brady filled in. Bledsoe came back healthy. Belichek chose Brady to continue playing over Bledsoe. whoOPS...! It's not that hard of a concept to understand, really.

It was hardly a choice. Not a hard concept to understand really.




yes, he did. "Do you not follow football". Here's an article on it.

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/01/31/sports/pro-football-brady-will-start-for-patriots.html

Wow you found me an article where it states
But sticking with Brady, who was selected to go to the Pro Bowl because of his magic-dusted season, was a no-brainer for Belichick, once he knew that Brady was able to move adequately on the ankle.

Even the writer mentions it was a no brainer. The team started 0-2 with Bledsoe! Yet somehow he was supposed to be given his job back over a guy who went on an 11-3 run and earned a trip to the pro bowl.

Thanks for providing me with an article that proves my point. By the way, the only reason Belichick considered playing Bledsoe was because Brady bummed up his ankle.

Again, it was
A NO BRAINER :lol:




LMAO at you thinking gus like Peyton Manning, Drew Brees, and Tom Brady are actually available for trade.


Where did I state or even so much as insinuate that once?

The fact is you make shit up because you get your ass handed to you and you have nothing left to go on. I have seen it time and again with you!




No, he didn't. That's been completely shot down too. Mcdaniels was given a phone call, informed Cutler about the possibility and teams were calling, and Cutler cried. End of story. You obviously were not following along with that situation.

I followed the entire situation. no one as of yet can credibly dispute the Boston Globe article that McD was the architect of the three way deal.

Furthermore, even if teams were calling, why do you suppose that was? Teams don't make it a habit of trying to pry away a 20 something year old QB who just went to the probowl unless they think there is a chance! What do you suppose led them to believe that?

Because the Lions approached the Broncos in February at the combine and weren't promptly shut down. That's why. The fact is this league is all about leverage. Listen to it with regard to any hold out. Shoot Shawn Springs just said it about Merriman.

The fact is Cutler wouldnt have been able to cry or pitch a fit let alone have leverage had it not been for McD int the first place.

At the end of the day, I don't care because I am happy Cutler isn't on this team. I am not happy how our 30 something coach handled it vs the 20 something player.



Because Josh Freeman was the next available, and thanking god, wasn't his guy.
I would say 99% of NFL GM's scouts would take Orton over Freeman too. Another terrible arguement.


I don't think 99% of scouts would take Orton over Freeman. Freeman went in to NO and WON. Orton couldn't even go into DC and win! Furthermore, Freeman didn't have a D that was ranked #1 for a large portion of the season and finished 7th overall.

At the end of the day, TB could have had Orton and they passed on him. Shoot anybody could have Orton but only 1 of 31 teams took him and his own team didn't want him.

So your speculation holds no water!



Why would Caldwell chose his guy over arguably the greatest? You aren't insinutating that Jay Cutler is on Peyton Manning's level, are you? LMAO



Since it is so hard, I will spell it out. Caldwell and other new coaches knew well enough to leave an established QB alone. There is a reason McD is the ONLY coach in the HISTORY of the NFL who walked in and traded a 20 something probowl QB away and then followed it up by trading away a 20 something ALL PRO probowl WR.

He will either sink or swim. I can't say what will happen but HISTORY isn't on his side.




Again, you insinutating out of all the guys McDaniels could have had, he somehow choose Orton over Manning and Brady.

Are you drunk? Again, the idea was that McD, a brand new coach forced him self into a limited pool of QB's, QB's teams were rejecting mind you, by his actions during the first days on the job.

He doesn't get a pass in my book, or many others for that matter, for having Orton. So many act as if he was FORCED to have Orton or acquire him when that simply isn't the case!



Again. You are completely wrong. Cutler was traded because he would not return any of Bowlen's phone calls. Can you imagine Tom Brady not returning his owner/Boss's phone calls?


Cutler was traded because he had leverage. Cutler was traded because the team gave him that leverage. Cutler on several occasions tried to work it out and simply asked that he get a commitment from the team.

You can believe the propoganda machine from Pidgeon Valley. However, I do find it peculiar that they offered to show phone records as proof that Cutler didn't return calls and when a Post reporter tried to take them up on it, they BALKED. Why do you suppose that was?




No, Scheffler did not have better offers. That's why he didn't take them.
The Bills and Eagles both inquired about Scheffler and were reported to have offered a 5th before the season started.



He didn't trade Marshall, because player value goes down once camp starts.

Not necessarily true. A team will make an offer if a player goes down.




LMAO at you honestly thinking any coach in the NFL can have the team he desires in his first year of coaching.

Where did I say this was the team for the ages or the roster was set in stone?

Again, I DIDN'T. I made the point that the roster was McD's guys. PERIOD. It was then and it is now. He wasn't forced to play or keep any of the Shanahan guys and he chose to for a few of them. 39 of the others were shown the door for his guys. Unless you are proposing he cut "Shanny guys" for scrap heap's to spite himself? The fact is he cut guys he felt he had a better replacement for.

[jhildebrand]

So Sporano and Smith get a pass due to injuries but McD is expected to do great regardless of how many injuries we may rack up?

That's not hypocritical or anything! :lol:

He didn't rack up injuries last year and certainly not to the extent of Miami and Atlanta.

Furthermore, Smith and Harbaugh in year one FARED much better than 8-8. Follow the dialogue :tsk:

[NightTrainLayne]

I'm going to lock this thread for a few minutes for clean-up. When it's reopened, I hope we can avoid all the personal attacks, and debate the topic in a friendly manner.

[NightTrainLayne]

I'm going to re-open the thread, but let me say that editing personal attacks out of the middle of 3,000 character multi-quote posts is not my idea of a fun Saturday night. So, if there's any more myself or the next moderator to come along is just going to delete the whole post. ;) Capishe?

[jhildebrand]

I'm going to re-open the thread, but let me say that editing personal attacks out of the middle of 3,000 character multi-quote posts is not my idea of a fun Saturday night. So, if there's any more myself or the next moderator to come along is just going to delete the whole post. ;) Capishe?

Capiche!

I sincerely apologize and promise to be civil. :beer:

[Lonestar]

did I miss all the fun?