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View Full Version : Rick Upchurch: Best PR in NFL History



studbucket
07-06-2008, 12:26 AM
I know we have a thread somewhat discussing this (http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3213), but I decided to start a new one instead of digging up an old one.

As some of you know, I enjoy stats, numbers, and crunching them. Thus Pro-Football-Reference (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/) and its blog (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/blog/) are among my favorite sites. For a few posts they were going over KR/PRs and showing what an amazing year Joshua Cribbs just had.

Here's the article (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/blog/?p=536) (WARNING: Contains #s and math).

Some Upchurch highlights

#1 overall among punt returners
#3 overall among kick and punt returners
Best KR in the league in 1974
Best PR in the league in 1975, 1977, and 1982


I figured some of you would enjoy this, I liked the article and I liked seeing Upchurch so high on the list. Someday I'm going to find an old Broncos game so I can watch him play...

Devilspawn
07-06-2008, 10:43 AM
Those reference sites are great for all 3 major sports. And hockey (sorry Med)

I don't know who the best PR man is, but the first name that comes to mind is Eric Metcalf. He's the best I ever saw. I looked him up on The Ref, and his numbers are actually much better than Upchurch's, even though he had a longer career.

Upchurch: http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/U/UpchRi00.htm

Metcalf: http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MetcEr00.htm

And I saw Josh Cribbs' numbers. He's working his way to being the best kick returner in the game, but he needs more years.

studbucket
07-06-2008, 01:27 PM
Those reference sites are great for all 3 major sports. And hockey (sorry Med)

I don't know who the best PR man is, but the first name that comes to mind is Eric Metcalf. He's the best I ever saw. I looked him up on The Ref, and his numbers are actually much better than Upchurch's, even though he had a longer career.

Upchurch: http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/U/UpchRi00.htm

Metcalf: http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MetcEr00.htm

And I saw Josh Cribbs' numbers. He's working his way to being the best kick returner in the game, but he needs more years.

Yeah, Metcalf was good, and I expected to see him on the list more, but PFR has him 16th all-time, and not among the best at PR (although 18th in KR). He also has one of the top-10 worst seasons of all-time as a returner, which probably hurts him.

At Cribbs' rate, he will outpace everyone but Mel Gray, who is going to be nigh-impossible to beat.

NameUsedBefore
07-06-2008, 01:41 PM
Upchurch is one of my dad's favorite players (hence the absentee-adoptee...); Brian Mitchell was stout as well. But if Devin Hester keeps up his pace he's going to smash any notion that there is an argument about who was the best at the position.

studbucket
07-06-2008, 02:02 PM
Upchurch is one of my dad's favorite players (hence the absentee-adoptee...); Brian Mitchell was stout as well. But if Devin Hester keeps up his pace he's going to smash any notion that there is an argument about who was the best at the position.

That's the thing, Hester's 2006 season was amazing, but this series of articles on PFR show that Cribbs' 2007 season was the best of all time, and he's the one who is on pace to be the best.

dogfish
07-06-2008, 04:09 PM
Upchurch is one of my dad's favorite players (hence the absentee-adoptee...); Brian Mitchell was stout as well. But if Devin Hester keeps up his pace he's going to smash any notion that there is an argument about who was the best at the position.


he already has. . . since the title of the article says "best punt rerurner (PR)" as opposed to return specialist, just look at those numbers. . .

upchurch: 9 years, 248 returns, 7 TDs

metcalf: 13 years, 351 returns, 10 TDs

hester: 2 years, 89 returns, 7 TDs


it's not even close-- in two years, hester has almost as many scores as those guys put up in their entire careers. . . and that's not taking into account that his average per return is a full two yards higher than upchurch's, and FOUR higher than metcalf's-- not fair to compare those right now, because hester's may drop as he gets older, but if he only plays one more year, and only puts up about half the TDs returns he's had in both of his years so far, he'll already be tied with or past those guys. . . besides which, nobody has ever affected field position by forcing teams to kick away from him the way hester has. . .

Requiem / The Dagda
07-06-2008, 04:16 PM
It's really too bad that Hester was taken a few selections before us; otherwise he'd be playing for the cooler orange and blue.

nj10
07-06-2008, 04:16 PM
he already has. . . since the title of the article says "best punt rerurner (PR)" as opposed to return specialist, just look at those numbers. . .

upchurch: 9 years, 248 returns, 7 TDs

metcalf: 13 years, 351 returns, 10 TDs

hester: 2 years, 89 returns, 7 TDs


it's not even close-- in two years, hester has almost as many scores as those guys put up in their entire careers. . . and that's not taking into account that his average per return is a full two yards higher than upchurch's, and FOUR higher than metcalf's-- not fair to compare those right now, because hester's may drop as he gets older, but if he only plays one more year, and only puts up about half the TDs returns he's had in both of his years so far, he'll already be tied with or past those guys. . . besides which, nobody has ever affected field position by forcing teams to kick away from him the way hester has. . .

I agree...Gotta love Upchurch but there is no doubt about who the best PR ever is. Hester is the best PR ever.

Lonestar
07-06-2008, 04:24 PM
he already has. . . since the title of the article says "best punt rerurner (PR)" as opposed to return specialist, just look at those numbers. . .

upchurch: 9 years, 248 returns, 7 TDs

metcalf: 13 years, 351 returns, 10 TDs

hester: 2 years, 89 returns, 7 TDs


it's not even close-- in two years, hester has almost as many scores as those guys put up in their entire careers. . . and that's not taking into account that his average per return is a full two yards higher than upchurch's, and FOUR higher than metcalf's-- not fair to compare those right now, because hester's may drop as he gets older, but if he only plays one more year, and only puts up about half the TDs returns he's had in both of his years so far, he'll already be tied with or past those guys. . . besides which, nobody has ever affected field position by forcing teams to kick away from him the way hester has. . .


KC had a pretty good one that killed us a couple three times a few years back Can't remember his name right now..

But Hester if he keeps up the same type of numbers for 7 years will indeed be the best..

It is easy to have a couple of great years and then not do so well.. when the opposing coaches does not allow the team to kick to him.. The first couple of years he is new and most coaches will not believe he is that good and are stupid enough to kick to him.. ala mickey last year..

PatricktheDookie
07-06-2008, 06:11 PM
As Dante Hall taught us - TDs don't tell the whole story.

If you score four times in a season, and average three yards on your other punt returns, is that better than someone who consistently gives you 10-20 yards of field position?

dogfish
07-06-2008, 08:10 PM
As Dante Hall taught us - TDs don't tell the whole story.

If you score four times in a season, and average three yards on your other punt returns, is that better than someone who consistently gives you 10-20 yards of field position?


hester's average on punt returns this year was 15.5, good for second best in the league among players with more than six returns. . . his career average of 14.1 is very, very good. . . compare it to the career averages of some players that are considered to be among the best return men to ever play the game. . .

eric metcalf - 9.8
rick upchurch - 12.1
brian mitchell - 10.8
dante hall - 10.5
dave meggett - 10.6


besides which, the whole "compare what they did without the touchdowns" argument is about as null and void as comparing what RBs average with the long runs taken out-- it's an artificial situation, because long runs and long returns COUNT! you want to talk about field position? then you also have to take into account that no returner has ever been kicked away from as consistently as hester. . . and every time a kicker squibs a kickoff to the twenty, every time a punter punts out of bounds, it gives the team beter field position-- i don't think any returner in the history of the game has affected his team's field position more than hester. . . but in the end, a score is still far better than good field position, and no one has ever compared to hester's explosiveness. . .

metcalf scored on 1 out of every 35 punt returns. . . upchurch, 1 out of every 31. . . mitchell, 1 out of every 51. . . hall, 1 out of every 35. . . meggett, 1 out of every 50. . . . hester? try 1 out of every 13!! and that's comparing him to some of the game's best. . .

at the rate he's going, he's so far above any competition that it's not even fair to compare them. . . how long he can keep up this blistering pace is anyone's guess, but at his best he's so much better than most "competition" that it's not even funny. . . .

dekers
07-06-2008, 10:15 PM
I wish i could have seen him play . I have only saw him on tape. My father always said you never knew what was going to happen with him back their. He was truly one of the best.

studbucket
07-07-2008, 03:40 AM
If you read the articles, you might notice that it's comparing return yards above league average. Showing that when he played, Upchurch was that much better than his contemporaries. It also provides a very compelling argument for why Josh Cribbs was a better returner than Hester last year (which I believed anyway).

They give weight to TDs, but they are more concerned with consistently getting good yardage on the returns. Check out the three articles before proclaiming Hester the best ever.

Best Return Games of All-Time (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/blog/?p=535)
Josh Cribbs, Superstar (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/blog/?p=536)
Josh Cribbs, Superstar, Part 2 (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/blog/?p=537)

Here's a quote:

Josh Cribbs’ 2007 season was truly remarkable. He added 486 more adjusted yards than the league average kickoff returner would have produced, and another 136 adjusted yards above what the league average punt returner would have compiled with the same number of returns. Those 622 adjusted yards over average was the single highest total by any one player since the merger.

studbucket
07-07-2008, 03:47 AM
As Dante Hall taught us - TDs don't tell the whole story.

If you score four times in a season, and average three yards on your other punt returns, is that better than someone who consistently gives you 10-20 yards of field position?

Exactly! As Broncos fans (most of us, anyway), we should appreciate the ability to have a solid return game, as that can really help field position. How good would we have been the last few years if we weren't losing the field position battle every game? If we could have gotten above-average returns every time, that starts us at the 30 or 35 on every kickoff return, not the 25 or even 15.

Medford Bronco
07-07-2008, 08:43 AM
KC had a pretty good one that killed us a couple three times a few years back Can't remember his name right now..

But Hester if he keeps up the same type of numbers for 7 years will indeed be the best..

It is easy to have a couple of great years and then not do so well.. when the opposing coaches does not allow the team to kick to him.. The first couple of years he is new and most coaches will not believe he is that good and are stupid enough to kick to him.. ala mickey last year..

I was going to say that JR. Dante Hall was a stud PR and KR. He bascially won the division vs Denver in 03 or 04 I think, with 2 returns in one game.

Shanny should learn and not kick to those guys, (Hester killed us last year as well)

scott.475
07-07-2008, 10:11 AM
I have a question: mechanically and/or skill wise, what is the difference between a PR and KR? A lot of times a player may be a great PR, but not a KR, and vice-versa. So, why might a given player be good at one, and not the other?

As I continue trying to learn more academically about the game, this is a lingering question I have had.

bengaaaaals1688
07-07-2008, 09:42 PM
I have a question: mechanically and/or skill wise, what is the difference between a PR and KR? A lot of times a player may be a great PR, but not a KR, and vice-versa. So, why might a given player be good at one, and not the other?

As I continue trying to learn more academically about the game, this is a lingering question I have had.

The way the blocking gets set up and the way the kicking team covers each type makes it a different type of game. That's what makes for the biggest difference as far as I am concerned.

Studbucket... I believe they were referring to Hester's PR ability, rather than his KR ability. Besides, what they said about Hester being kicked away from isn't something that can be found in statistics, regardless of league average, and it is a game changer in and of itself.