Larsen > Hillis

[honz]

Discuss.

[Softskull]

Discuss.

What the....!?! That's just crazy talk.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

Discuss what? Larsen>Hillis at blocking? Maybe. At running with the ball? Uh, nope. At receiving? Hell no.

Right now, Larsen is almost a liability at FB because he's not a weapon in the offense other than an extra blocker. If he's in the game, nobody believes we're going to pass and even if we do pass, nobody will waste time covering him because he's not going to get the ball anyway...

Discuss...

[dogfish]

west > honz


discuss THAT!!


[/epicpwnage]

[Softskull]

west > honz


discuss THAT!!


[/epicpwnage]



What the....!?! That's just crazy talk.

[honz]

west > honz


discuss THAT!!


[/epicpwnage]

West? Seriously? That hurts, bro.

I mean, West? Got damn man.

[dogfish]

oh wait. . . actually i like larsen. . .


he's a tough kid who has the right mentality for the position. . . but honestly, i'm tremendously disappointed about the way mcD handled hillis. . . and no, i'm NOT trying to bash the coach, put your damn guns down. . . touchy group, aren'tcha?

it's his team and i don't question his right to handle personnel the way it suits him-- it comes with the territory. . . doesn't mean i have to love every move-- i'm entitled to my opinion also, and it's not as though coaches and FO execs are always right, either. . .

i still really don't understand the whole deal, and at this point i'm starting to lean towards the suggestion that he had problems with the mental part of the game, because nothing else makes sense. . . i haven't completely written off the idea that mcD just plain doesn't have the best people skills and that's that, but it seems a little silly. . . i'd at least LIKE to believe that he's not so immature as to cut off his nose to spite his face. . .

now that all the supposedly problematic guys are gone, we should get a better answer over the next few years. . . we'll see how many lockerrooms cutler, marshall and scheffler wreck-- and whether mcdaniels runs any more pro bowl talent out of town. . . personally, i'm hoping they all have smooth sailing from here on out, and we can come to some kind of consensus that they were probably all a little immature and could have handled things differently. . . instead of the constant agendas and arguing about who's fault it is. . . BUT, that'll probably never happen, since people love to argue about that shit so much. . .

anyway, back on topic. . . it just bums me out that they couldn't/wouldn't find a way to use hillis, for whatever reason. . . if it really was the mental aspect, they could have made more than a half-assed one year effort to work with him. . . i just think he had such a great physical skill set for this offense, and when he had a chance to run the ball he was a physical tone setter. . . it could well have been worth it to spend the extra time to work him in slowly. . . he didn't have to be the featured back, we could have given him basic lead blocking and goal line stuff to start with and expanded the packages over the next couple of years. . . the guy has great hands and is a load to bring down-- i was really looking forward to seeing him catch screens out in the flat and run DBs over. . .

just as a part-time tailback, he's at least as good as kolby smith, and certainly a better-known quantity than baker, ball or hall. . .

enh, whatever. . . i know it's done. . .

[dogfish]

What the....!?! That's just crazy talk.

he asked for it. . . . :D

[dogfish]

West? Seriously? That hurts, bro.

I mean, West? Got damn man.

yea, that was kinda low. . . .

i almost feel bad about it. . . .


would shank or buff have hurt less?

[oubronco]

Ass>Tits

Discuss

[Timmy!]

http://redriverpak.files.wordpress.com/2010/05/fishing.jpg

[frauschieze]

Ass>Tits

Discuss

In the Lounge. Talk about it here and it'll be whoopin' time.

[topscribe]

west > honz


discuss THAT!!


[/epicpwnage]

What? At throwing passes? Hell no!

At receiving? Well, maybe . . . I wouldn't know . . .

-----

[Elevation inc]

Discuss.

absolutely..haha j/k.........word in camp now though is Larsen knows the system flawlessly...is a much more powerful and lights out blocker, brings much more versatility and special teams value and now is also catching and running the ball out of the backfield....they have officially moved him from LB to full time FB...he is our guy there and was probally always MCD's long term plan there, which is why MCd probally never felt any use for a guy who made mistakes early last year, didnt know the offense or terminolgy at all, and had consistent mental lapses in the small amount of oppurtunities he had.....


Im completely fine with hillis in clevalnd, and I hope he does well there. I have no problem with larsen as our FB now....

[TimTebow15MVP]

Discuss what? Larsen>Hillis at blocking? Maybe. At running with the ball? Uh, nope. At receiving? Hell no.

Right now, Larsen is almost a liability at FB because he's not a weapon in the offense other than an extra blocker. If he's in the game, nobody believes we're going to pass and even if we do pass, nobody will waste time covering him because he's not going to get the ball anyway...

Discuss...

yeah because any defense is dumb enough to just not cover a guy with 10 15 yards worth of field in front of them who is a former mlb that l probably run right over any defender with a full head of steam. I think any qb on this roster would make that check down. Hillis is not needed here. Larsen has also gotten quite a few checkdowns in camp and thats exactly how rob ayers crushed him today. give me larsen over a whiner.

[Elevation inc]

yeah because any defense is dumb enough to just not cover a guy with 10 15 yards worth of field in front of them who is a former mlb that l probably run right over any defender with a full head of steam. I think any qb on this roster would make that check down. Hillis is not needed here. Larsen has also gotten quite a few checkdowns in camp and thats exactly how rob ayers crushed him today. give me larsen over a whiner.


im confused now:confused:

[silkamilkamonico]

Hillis was not a true FB. When are people going to realize this? His blocking is far below average for a FB.

Also, the FB is a dying breed in the NFL in this day and age. All they do is get in the way, and the best offenses in the NFL hardly even utilize a FB.

[Elevation inc]

Hillis was not a true FB. When are people going to realize this? His blocking is far below average for a FB.

Also, the FB is a dying breed in the NFL in this day and age. All they do is get in the way, and the best offenses in the NFL hardly even utilize a FB.


um you still need one for packages in power run schemes...and even MCd stated he would like some more 2 back sets, with the FB involved....

and hillis was drafted as a FB something he did at arkansas just fine....problem is the NFL is a little bit bigger and faster, and deeper....and he couldnt block in the NFL and made mental errors....

sadly we dont have Drew brees, phillip rivers or peyton manning at QB....your right they do not need a FB for there team, they throw for 4500 yds every year.....but a team led by orton that needs a power run game to compliment him or he is screwed.....well to get a good power run game going you need a FB.....just saying.....

[silkamilkamonico]

um you still need one for packages in power run schemes...and even MCd stated he would like some more 2 back sets, with the FB involved....

If nothing else, he can throw an extra TE into the FB position (like he did in NE), or a DT (like he did in NE). That alone should tell you just how important a true FB is in the NFL. So important a lot of teams don't even have one on their roster.



and hillis was drafted as a FB something he did at arkansas just fine....problem is the NFL is a little bit bigger and faster, and deeper....and he couldnt block in the NFL and made mental errors....

He was not a true FB at Arkansas, he was more of a power runningback. Arkansas ran a spread, much of the times with McFadden running the wildcat, which does not require in any way, shape, or form, a blocking FB. They did not run a pro style offense, and a lot of times Hillis lined up in the twins back pro form and took the handoffs up the middle.



sadly we dont have Drew brees, phillip rivers or peyton manning at QB....your right they do not need a FB for there team, they throw for 4500 yds every year.....but a team led by orton that needs a power run game to compliment him or he is screwed.....well to get a good power run game going you need a FB.....just saying.....

I don't disagree, but anyone can fill the FB role. Chris Cooley plays FB in power sets at Washington. Vernon Davis does in SF sometimes. The NFL has moved past the point of a true FB player, and traded it with mass and beef that can penetrate the point of attack through the defense. It's why you see so many DT's line up at FB in short goal situations.

[Fan in Exile]

I think you're asking completely the wrong question. We didn't trade Hillis for Larsen they've got different skill sets, as has been pointed out. Hillis wasn't going to be the FB, at best he was going to be a change of pace running back. What we should be comparing is the depth guys at RB that we've got now, I've heard good things about Lance Ball, or how much better it is to Brady Quinn as a Back-up QB.

I'm happy that got Quinn in, he's looking much better than Simms did last year, I don't mind giving up Hillis because we've got good RB depth.

[jhildebrand]

Hillis was not a true FB. When are people going to realize this? His blocking is far below average for a FB.

Also, the FB is a dying breed in the NFL in this day and age. All they do is get in the way, and the best offenses in the NFL hardly even utilize a FB.

I saw quite a few first downs last year only because of Hillis. One against Indy and one against Philly come to mind.

How was the guy not a true FB? He was a true FB for two phenomenal backs at Arkansas.

[jhildebrand]

give me larsen over a whiner.

Where did Hillis "whine" even once? :confused:

Please be sure to provide a link, an article, a direct quote with the source!

[silkamilkamonico]

I saw quite a few first downs last year only because of Hillis. One against Indy and one against Philly come to mind.

How was the guy not a true FB? He was a true FB for two phenomenal backs at Arkansas.


I'm sorry, but he wasn't. True FB's don't run the ball, they block, and they catch an occasional pass. The game has evolved far past the 1980's offensive schemes where the FB was utlized as a skill player.

And I'm sorry, but no, Hillis was not a true FB at Arkansas.he did not line up in block in a power oriented scheme. I saw 8+ games a season when McFadden was at Arkansas, and their offense was misdirection based offense that utilized 3 runners. Hillis blocked for those 2 about as much as McFadden was used as a decoy to bounce Jones outside.

Hillis is a pretty good power RB. Mangini is looking at him as a short yardage RB. He can also catch passes and make something happen. He cannot however, consistently open up holes and penetrate the point of attack. He's a below average NFL blocker, at best.

[broncobryce]

Hillis did not whine. But he obviously wasn't what josh wants. And I'd take quinn over him 7 days a week.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

[silkamilkamonico]

Hillis did not whine. But he obviously wasn't what josh wants. And I'd take quinn over him 7 days a week.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

I would too, especially if Quinn makes Orton better, or even Tebow better in the future. He doesn't even have to play. RB's are a dime a dozen in this league.

[jhildebrand]

True FB's don't run the ball, they block, and they catch an occasional pass.

:rolleyes:

True TE's only block and catch the occasional pass... right?

Larry Csonka is a classic FB and he had multiple 200+ carry seasons. Jim Brown was classified as a FB and is in the HOF as a FB.

The reality is the game changes and so does the utilization of certain positions. Sure, the FB position is "dying" right now but McDaniels still implements it to some degree. Those asserting Larsen will be a better pass catcher out of the FB position are simply speculating. We have yet to see him do it. We saw Hillis do it and do it with great success. I recall him having a pretty good game against Miami. He avaeraged 12.8 Y/REC.

[dogfish]

yeah because any defense is dumb enough to just not cover a guy with 10 15 yards worth of field in front of them who is a former mlb that l probably run right over any defender with a full head of steam. I think any qb on this roster would make that check down. Hillis is not needed here. Larsen has also gotten quite a few checkdowns in camp and thats exactly how rob ayers crushed him today. give me larsen over a whiner.

hillis never did any whining-- stop making shit up!


:salute:

[Chris90210]

Franz > Hans

[arapaho2]

Hillis was not a true FB. When are people going to realize this? His blocking is far below average for a FB.

Also, the FB is a dying breed in the NFL in this day and age. All they do is get in the way, and the best offenses in the NFL hardly even utilize a FB.


he was rated the best blocking fb in college when he was drafted

[Ravage!!!]

oh wait. . . actually i like larsen. . .


he's a tough kid who has the right mentality for the position. . . but honestly, i'm tremendously disappointed about the way mcD handled hillis. . . and no, i'm NOT trying to bash the coach, put your damn guns down. . . touchy group, aren'tcha?

it's his team and i don't question his right to handle personnel the way it suits him-- it comes with the territory. . . doesn't mean i have to love every move-- i'm entitled to my opinion also, and it's not as though coaches and FO execs are always right, either. . .

i still really don't understand the whole deal, and at this point i'm starting to lean towards the suggestion that he had problems with the mental part of the game, because nothing else makes sense. . . i haven't completely written off the idea that mcD just plain doesn't have the best people skills and that's that, but it seems a little silly. . . i'd at least LIKE to believe that he's not so immature as to cut off his nose to spite his face. . .

now that all the supposedly problematic guys are gone, we should get a better answer over the next few years. . . we'll see how many lockerrooms cutler, marshall and scheffler wreck-- and whether mcdaniels runs any more pro bowl talent out of town. . . personally, i'm hoping they all have smooth sailing from here on out, and we can come to some kind of consensus that they were probably all a little immature and could have handled things differently. . . instead of the constant agendas and arguing about who's fault it is. . . BUT, that'll probably never happen, since people love to argue about that shit so much. . .

anyway, back on topic. . . it just bums me out that they couldn't/wouldn't find a way to use hillis, for whatever reason. . . if it really was the mental aspect, they could have made more than a half-assed one year effort to work with him. . . i just think he had such a great physical skill set for this offense, and when he had a chance to run the ball he was a physical tone setter. . . it could well have been worth it to spend the extra time to work him in slowly. . . he didn't have to be the featured back, we could have given him basic lead blocking and goal line stuff to start with and expanded the packages over the next couple of years. . . the guy has great hands and is a load to bring down-- i was really looking forward to seeing him catch screens out in the flat and run DBs over. . .

just as a part-time tailback, he's at least as good as kolby smith, and certainly a better-known quantity than baker, ball or hall. . .

enh, whatever. . . i know it's done. . .


Great post. Exactly as I feel. There is no way, imo, you can watch the way he ran, and caught passes out of the backfield, in '08 and say he can't be an asset. The guy, when given the ball, was a beast. 250lbs of running back that had some of the best hands on the team. If you are looking for players to have the ability to be "multi-faceted" then Hillis fit the bill.

I don't buy the "he couldn't get the game"... he sure did before. I don't know. I would rather have Hillis than some blocking TE, and am disappointed we don't have him. But what can you do :whoknows: ? I know Larsen isn't a threat, at all, at running or catching... and Hillis was the closest thing we had to a a Griffith out of the back field we've seen in a very long time.

Doesn't matter if you call him a "true FB" or not. I don't think anyone really knows what that is. Whats a 'true' FB?? If you were big and could run, you were a FB and were given the ball. Is that true? Whats a true... any position? Everyone's definition of "true" is different. So I don't think we can say Hillis wasn't a "true" fullback. He could line up at FB, and either carry, catch, or block. True enough for me.

[Ravage!!!]

yeah because any defense is dumb enough to just not cover a guy with 10 15 yards worth of field in front of them who is a former mlb that l probably run right over any defender with a full head of steam. I think any qb on this roster would make that check down. Hillis is not needed here. Larsen has also gotten quite a few checkdowns in camp and thats exactly how rob ayers crushed him today. give me larsen over a whiner.

Hmmm.. welcome to contradiction 101.

[arapaho2]

Opportunity knocks, Hillis answers

By Steve King, Contributor to ClevelandBrowns.com
Posted Aug 3, 2010

a (http://www.clevelandbrowns.com/news/article-1/Opportunity-knocks-Hillis-answers/043a113d-be94-4dca-bef7-becc2a59d5ef#)
a (http://www.clevelandbrowns.com/news/article-1/Opportunity-knocks-Hillis-answers/043a113d-be94-4dca-bef7-becc2a59d5ef#)

Peyton Hillis is making the most of any and all opportunities he gets in training camp.

When it’s your time, you’ve got to shine.
And Browns fullback Peyton Hillishttp://www.clevelandbrowns.com/assets/nflimg/icon-article-link.gif (http://www.clevelandbrowns.com/team/roster/peyton-hillis/349c4232-a77b-495d-bd8c-3d9e1c63c548/) has done just that.
Largely unknown in Cleveland when he arrived in the offseason trade that sent quarterback Brady Quinn to the Broncos, the third-year pro is getting a lot of reps and is making the most of them.
Hillis, in fact, has been one of the most impressive players in camp. The 6-foot-1 and 240-pounder showed he’s not just big with good hands, but he’s also speedy, running past the entire defense to score on two 35-yard pass receptions just three days at camp.
As such, he’s already carving out a niche for himself.
“Anytime that somebody goes down, it creates an opportunity for other people to show what they can do,” Hillis said following a recent practice. “Montario is a great back, and we’re hoping to have him back soon. But in the meantime, I’m just trying to fill in the gaps.”
He’s doing more than that.
“I feel blessed to be here,” he said.
For the Browns, the feeling is mutual.

http://www.clevelandbrowns.com/news/article-1/Opportunity-knocks-Hillis-answers/043a113d-be94-4dca-bef7-becc2a59d5ef

[Ravage!!!]

240 lbs, fast, and with hands..... :lol: If the Cutler jersey hadn't just bit me, I would have bought a Hillis :phwew:

[jhildebrand]

hillis never did any whining-- stop making shit up!


:salute:

Nothing I wouldn't expect from a Denver Tebow fan. They are the newest team in the NFL. Colorado now has two NFL franchises like other states: the Denver Broncos and the Denver Tebows. It certainly will make for an interesting season.

[jhildebrand]

Great post. Exactly as I feel. There is no way, imo, you can watch the way he ran, and caught passes out of the backfield, in '08 and say he can't be an asset. The guy, when given the ball, was a beast. 250lbs of running back that had some of the best hands on the team. If you are looking for players to have the ability to be "multi-faceted" then Hillis fit the bill.

I don't buy the "he couldn't get the game"... he sure did before. I don't know. I would rather have Hillis than some blocking TE, and am disappointed we don't have him. But what can you do :whoknows: ? I know Larsen isn't a threat, at all, at running or catching... and Hillis was the closest thing we had to a a Griffith out of the back field we've seen in a very long time.

Doesn't matter if you call him a "true FB" or not. I don't think anyone really knows what that is. Whats a 'true' FB?? If you were big and could run, you were a FB and were given the ball. Is that true? Whats a true... any position? Everyone's definition of "true" is different. So I don't think we can say Hillis wasn't a "true" fullback. He could line up at FB, and either carry, catch, or block. True enough for me.

Great post!

Which makes it all the more confusing because this "system" supposedly values and places a premium on versatility.

[Lonestar]

Does anyone think that Josh would have been true to his word this year and worked him into the line up?

There zero reason to believe that had the Quinn trade not pop up that it would have happened.

It is obvious to mee that Josh wanted Quinn more than another RB/almost FB.
He had tried to work a deal with CLE last year but CHI gave the best deal, it is no secert that Quinn was the one QB that he wanted first and Orton was next.
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[jhildebrand]

Does anyone think that Josh would have been true to his word this year and worked him into the line up?

Good question! Is he a LIAR then? Afterall, McDaniels finished the season saying Hillis would "be a Bronco for a long time to come" only to trade him. Why create the brain damage by offering up that quote only to quickly trade him? If you do trade him and believe it is possible you will, why not run him late in the season when you had nobody left to up Hillis' value? Oh yea, because it would make the Moreno pick look worse than it already did to many.

[CrazyHorse]

Easily as a fullback. Not as runningback though.

[Lonestar]

Good question! Is he a LIAR then? Afterall, McDaniels finished the season saying Hillis would "be a Bronco for a long time to come" only to trade him. Why create the brain damage by offering up that quote only to quickly trade him? If you do trade him and believe it is possible you will, why not run him late in the season when you had nobody left to up Hillis' value? Oh yea, because it would make the Moreno pick look worse than it already did to many.


I'm guessing you have never said something and then changed your mind because the circumstances changed.

I think his change of mind can easily be explained by his philosophy of

"NO one is immune from being traded, if it makes the team better."

Something he stated quite clearly when coming to the team.

[Slick]

I can't believe we're still on Hillis' nuts.

[jhildebrand]

I'm guessing you have never said something and then changed your mind because the circumstances changed.

I think his change of mind can easily be explained by his philosophy of

"NO one is immune from being traded, if it makes the team better."

Something he stated quite clearly when coming to the team.

That all assumes there wasn't a "situation," Jrwiz! The fact is something happened and the Kremlin er Pidgeon Valley kept it on lock down.

I would much rather have McD state he didn't play Hillis because "he didn't want to" or "[he] was sending a message."

The reality is 'something' happened and McD is more content on treating the fans like mushrooms by keeping us in the dark and feeding us bullshit and acting like we don't know better.

You see, I think most people wouldn't care so much that Hillis ended up being traded. Once again, it was the way things were handled, throughout the entire season, and the ensuing comments only for it all to be hot air. We aren't stupid! Yet McDaniels acts as if we are! Believing it was a change of mind is naieve at best.

[jhildebrand]

I can't believe we're still on Hillis' nuts.

Its a :flame: thread. What do you really expect? :confused:

I think the way every current ex Bronco is villified, you can expect to see a lot of this kind of stuff all season. Marshall, Scheffler, Hillis, we'll see a lot of it.

[Slick]

Its a :flame: thread. What do you really expect? :confused:

I think the way every current ex Bronco is villified, you can expect to see a lot of this kind of stuff all season. Marshall, Scheffler, Hillis, we'll see a lot of it.

I totally get why people are/were upset that Cutler,Marshall and Sheffler are no longer here. I liked Hillis too but he had ONE good game and people act like he was the reincarnation of John Riggins.

[jhildebrand]

I totally get why people are/were upset that Cutler,Marshall and Sheffler are no longer here. I liked Hillis too but he had ONE good game and people act like he was the reincarnation of John Riggins.

I think he had more than one good game. I think people are upset because of the potential he showed. Truth be told, to many, he showed more potential with less opportunity than Moreno showed all season.

These Hillis threads always seem to go 400 pages deep. If Hillis goes off in Cleveland it will get much worse!

[Lonestar]

I still believe that bobby T had more to do with PH not playing than either mikey or Josh.

It was stated in an article that both coaches gave him the resposibility to get the RBs reps and coach them up.

In 08 there was no one left when they got to PH. In 09 BT had a new toy a first round pick that he and Josh had to justify.

I'm guessing that Josh did not pick moreno without BT being on board.

So his huevious were on the line in getting him ready.

That is how I see it. Roght wrong or indifferent.

Hillis for Quinn do that in a heart beat. Although I have been a hillis fan since the day he was drafted. I like big RB's and if they can catch like him well I liked him a lot.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

[jhildebrand]

first round pick that he and Josh had to justify.


Didn't you fight me on that before...the idea that McDaniels refused to play Hillis in part to justify Moreno? Also, to keep the detractors from gaining steam?

[TXBRONC]

I totally get why people are/were upset that Cutler,Marshall and Sheffler are no longer here. I liked Hillis too but he had ONE good game and people act like he was the reincarnation of John Riggins.

I don't want to far off in the weeds on this but he actually had more than just one good game when he became the starting tail back.

[Slick]

I think he had more than one good game. I think people are upset because of the potential he showed. Truth be told, to many, he showed more potential with less opportunity than Moreno showed all season.

These Hillis threads always seem to go 400 pages deep. If Hillis goes off in Cleveland it will get much worse!

Fair enough, but he showed that potential under a Shanahan coached offense. Under the new regime, all he did was turn the ball over and fail at every short yardage opportunity that presented itself.

[TXBRONC]

Fair enough, but he showed that potential under a Shanahan coached offense. Under the new regime, all he did was turn the ball over and fail at every short yardage opportunity that presented itself.

What are talking about Slick? After the Cincinnati I don't think Hillis saw the field again until we faced the Chiefs at Arrowhead.

[dogfish]

I can't believe we're still on Hillis' nuts.

there's no room left on tebow's!

[claymore]

there's no room left on tebow's!

Im sure you could fit some fillapino refugees on there.

[Slick]

What are talking about Slick? After the Cincinnati I don't think Hillis saw the field again until we faced the Chiefs at Arrowhead.

The times he did see the field last year he looked like shit IMO. Look, I've already said enough about a player who is no longer here. If you'll excuse me, I'll revert back to not giving a flying banana peel about Peyton Hillis.

[dogfish]

Im sure you could fit some fillapino refugees on there.

or her (http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1022869&postcount=1175) . . . .

[claymore]

or her (http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1022869&postcount=1175) . . . .

:drool:

[Bosco]

The saddest thing is that Hillis apparently didn't get any brains to go with his immense physical talent. I had visions of Peyton becoming a very rich man's Kevin Faulk in our offense, but sadly that never came to pass.

[jhildebrand]

Fair enough, but he showed that potential under a Shanahan coached offense. Under the new regime, all he did was turn the ball over and fail at every short yardage opportunity that presented itself.

I respect your opinion, slick.:salute: In all fairness, he wasn't given the same opportunities as Moreno and Moreno made the SAME mistakes and MORE of them.

Again, I am not here to rehash all of this. To me it is more about calling it like it is: Something happened and McD will never admit publicly what that was also plenty seem willing to trash Hillis yet somehow those same attacks don't apply to Moreno.

Oh well! Let's see what happens throughout the season.

[TXBRONC]

The times he did see the field last year he looked like shit IMO. Look, I've already said enough about a player who is no longer here. If you'll excuse me, I'll revert back to not giving a flying banana peel about Peyton Hillis.

I hope you're not taking what I said as harsh because that's not my intent. All I'm trying to say he appeared all of two games last year. And from what I remember the game at Arrowhead he did very well even though it was at the end of the game.

[Slick]

I hope you're not taking what I said as harsh because that's not my intent. All I'm trying to say he appeared all of two games last year. And from what I remember the game at Arrowhead he did very well even though it was at the end of the game.

Not at all Tex. You are polite as well as a scholar and a gentleman.

[Slick]

The saddest thing is that Hillis apparently didn't get any brains to go with his immense physical talent. I had visions of Peyton becoming a very rich man's Kevin Faulk in our offense, but sadly that never came to pass.

How do you seem to know so much about this offense Bosco? Are you McDaniels' nephew or something?

Tell us your story.

[TXBRONC]

How do you seem to know so much about this offense Bosco? Are you McDaniels' nephew or something?

Tell us your story.

He's got New England's playbook. :laugh:

[Bosco]

How do you seem to know so much about this offense Bosco? Are you McDaniels' nephew or something?

Tell us your story.

There's really no secret to it, and my knowledge isn't beyond what just about anyone else could acquire with some time and dedication. I love football and the X's and O's and technical complexity of the game these days is very fascinating to me, so I tend to watch the games repeatedly, read all the information I can on them and hang out on a couple coaching forums to learn from people even more involved than me. 95% of all my knowledge came from information or sources that are open to anyone else in the general public.

As for McDaniels specific offense, I've been a fan of, watched and studied it in it's current college version with Urban Meyer's Gators and when McDaniels became to the Pats OC and brought it to New England I watched it develop there and when Shanahan was let go, McD was really the only guy I wanted to replace him. As a result, I was a little ahead of the curve in knowing what we were about to see here in Denver.

[Lonestar]

Didn't you fight me on that before...the idea that McDaniels refused to play Hillis in part to justify Moreno? Also, to keep the detractors from gaining steam?

note that I also added BT to the list as I do not believe that Josh was the big kahuna in making the pick.

I believe they all studied the RB's and decided as a Group with a lot of input from BT on who would be best for the O.

Contrary to some I believe that Josh is managing the coaches and not directing them in their every tiniest move.

By managing them he is giving them what he wants to accomplish and then steps back allow them to teach it.

Since he kept BT and Rcik last year I'm going to say he listened to their input a lot as to their players and what they could or could not do.

I also believe he saw a really BIG Kevin Faulk in Hillis and had plans for him.

If BT held him back like I believe happened both years then that explains what happened, once BT was gone I beleieve that Josh wanted to see for himself. then the chance came up to get Quinn who he wanted the year before.

[dogfish]

note that I also added BT to the list as I do not believe that Josh was the big kahuna in making the pick.

I believe they all studied the RB's and decided as a Group with a lot of input from BT on who would be best for the O.


in other words. . . the new coach isn't going to get the same blame as the old one if and when his draft picks don't work out. . . .

interesting. . . .

[Lonestar]

in other words. . . the new coach isn't going to get the same blame as the old one if and when his draft picks don't work out. . . .

interesting. . . .

did I say that? if the pick is a bust. I know where the buck stops.
I'm not going hang him YET for last years picks.

mikey got 3 years before he cut his day one picks, Josh gets the same if last years Picks do not resign or we do not trade them for value by the fourth draft then you can count on me to pick up where I left off with mikeys busts.

[dogfish]

did I say that? if the pick is a bust. I know where the buck stops.
I'm not going hang him YET for last years picks.

mikey got 3 years before he cut his day one picks, Josh gets the same if last years Picks do not resign or we do not trade them for value by the fourth draft then you can count on me to pick up where I left off with mikeys busts.

fair enough. . .


i'll remember this post. . . . :D

[jhildebrand]

note that I also added BT to the list as I do not believe that Josh was the big kahuna in making the pick.

Not too far fetched an idea considering the fact that Shanahan said BT was the reason the Broncos went after Clarett.



I believe they all studied the RB's and decided as a Group with a lot of input from BT on who would be best for the O.

Ok then. Now that presents another issue. Why let Bobby Turner go. If that is the case and Turner did indeed pick Moreno. My guess is that pick was based in large part on the ZBS. Now the scheme and BT are gone. Now what are we to think? :confused: Are we to believe McDaniels is short sighted and picked a back only to find out a season later he wont fit the team's needs?



Contrary to some I believe that Josh is managing the coaches and not directing them in their every tiniest move.

Ostrich head meet sand. I am not being mean here, Jrwiz. However you are being very selective in what you are choosing to believe.

It was well documented Josh's meddling with the D and how it was to be orchestrated and implemented. If he is willing to cross to the other side of the ball he certainly wouldn't have any problems being all hands on with the O.



Since he kept BT and Rcik last year I'm going to say he listened to their input a lot as to their players and what they could or could not do.

Again....why let Turner walk? :confused: If you are going to invest as heavily in Moreno as you did, why let the best mentor in the game for him walk out of town?



I also believe he saw a really BIG Kevin Faulk in Hillis and had plans for him.

There was something there all along. We know everything but what the "issue" was.



If BT held him back like I believe happened both years then that explains what happened, once BT was gone I beleieve that Josh wanted to see for himself. then the chance came up to get Quinn who he wanted the year before.

The problem with this theory is this: IF BT actually held Hillis back why would he do it for a second year in a row!!!! It doesn't make sense!

McDaniels had the benefit over Shanahan in knowing what Hillis was capable of. He should have especially known seeing how Hillis thrashed the same Jets team that kept the Pats out of the playoffs!

[Bosco]

note that I also added BT to the list as I do not believe that Josh was the big kahuna in making the pick.

I believe they all studied the RB's and decided as a Group with a lot of input from BT on who would be best for the O.

Contrary to some I believe that Josh is managing the coaches and not directing them in their every tiniest move.

By managing them he is giving them what he wants to accomplish and then steps back allow them to teach it.

Since he kept BT and Rcik last year I'm going to say he listened to their input a lot as to their players and what they could or could not do.

I also believe he saw a really BIG Kevin Faulk in Hillis and had plans for him.

If BT held him back like I believe happened both years then that explains what happened, once BT was gone I beleieve that Josh wanted to see for himself. then the chance came up to get Quinn who he wanted the year before.

See that's the thing, I don't think anyone needs to be hung out to dry over the Hillis. His mental shortcomings were well known going into the draft, but we took a chance on him with a 7th rounder instead of a 3rd of 4th we might have used years earlier. In short, he was a prototypical 7th round pick.

I'd say we got our value out of Hillis. He gave some good performances late in the 2008 season and when he didn't develop in 2009 we flipped him for a guy who has franchise quarterback potential.

[jhildebrand]

we took a chance on him with a 7th rounder instead of a 3rd of 4th we might have used years earlier..

Like trading up for Quinn? Or using a first to draft Alphonso?

Reaching for players wasn't relegated to the last regime.


See that's the thing, I don't think anyone needs to be hung out to dry over the Hillis.

I would agree with you had McDaniels been a bit more honest with the fanbase as to what the "real" issue was.

PS: I'd be the first to admit Shanny would reach!

[Bosco]

Like trading up for Quinn? Or using a first to draft Alphonso?

Reaching for players wasn't relegated to the last regime. Neither one of them were major reaches though. Quinn was projected to go somewhere in the 3rd and we took him with the very last pick of the 2nd round. Smith was a late 1st/early 2nd projection and we picked him right in that range.


I would agree with you had McDaniels been a bit more honest with the fanbase as to what the "real" issue was.

PS: I'd be the first to admit Shanny would reach! But what was he supposed to say? I doubt that him publicly acknowledging that Hillis lacked the mental ability to play in his offense would have sat well with many people.

[TimTebow15MVP]

why was hillis not used? Why was he in the doghouse so early? Because he wanted to run the ball and didnt want to block anymore. Since he didnt get many reps at RB his blocking fell way off when he was never a good blocker anyway. Hillis at best is a special teamer along with a guy who can catch the ball out the backfield a few times.

And i am my own source.

[jhildebrand]

why was hillis not used? Why was he in the doghouse so early? Because he wanted to run the ball and didnt want to block anymore. Since he didnt get many reps at RB his blocking fell way off when he was never a good blocker anyway. Hillis at best is a special teamer along with a guy who can catch the ball out the backfield a few times.

And i am my own source.

So a guy who has played football all his life forgot how to block? :confused:

BRILLIANT!

Seeing how you have been a fan of the Denver Tebows since the draft, how could you possibly know anything let alone be your own source.

By the way, Hillis has ALREADY PROVEN he is FAR MORE than "just a special teamer."

He has proven he can do more than catch a ball or two out of the backfield too.

I'm curious, since you see Hillis as an everyday scrub in this league, how is it he notched some impressive rushing games against the leagues better run defenses i.e. Atlanta and Jets? How is it he managed a 100 yard game AND MORENO CAN'T? AND WHAT DOES THAT SAY ABOUT MORENO?????

[jhildebrand]

Neither one of them were major reaches though. Quinn was projected to go somewhere in the 3rd and we took him with the very last pick of the 2nd round. Smith was a late 1st/early 2nd projection and we picked him right in that range.

I recall a few sources saying Quinn was a much higher reach than you care to acknowledge.



But what was he supposed to say? I doubt that him publicly acknowledging that Hillis lacked the mental ability to play in his offense would have sat well with many people.

Shanahan had no problem saying it about Brister and Brister won 6 games for us our SB year! I don't recall the fanbase having any issues with it!

[Bosco]

I recall a few sources saying Quinn was a much higher reach than you care to acknowledge. NFL Draft Scout had him as a projected 3rd rounder and they have a very good track record of accuracy.


Shanahan had no problem saying it about Brister and Brister won 6 games for us our SB year! I don't recall the fanbase having any issues with it! The Brister/Griese debacle was poorly handled and divided the locker room, which was for more important that anything the fanbase had to say about it.

[jhildebrand]

NFL Draft Scout had him as a projected 3rd rounder and they have a very good track record of accuracy.

Links?



The Brister/Griese debacle was poorly handled and divided the locker room, which was for more important that anything the fanbase had to say about it.

That doesn't change my point one bit, Bosco. If anything, it drives it home more! If Shanahan can risk losing the LR, which he acknowledged happened (but didn't expect), why can't McDaniels be as frank with some scrub near practice squad less important of a position in FB Hillis?

[TimTebow15MVP]

So a guy who has played football all his life forgot how to block? :confused:

BRILLIANT!

Seeing how you have been a fan of the Denver Tebows since the draft, how could you possibly know anything let alone be your own source.

By the way, Hillis has ALREADY PROVEN he is FAR MORE than "just a special teamer."

He has proven he can do more than catch a ball or two out of the backfield too.

I'm curious, since you see Hillis as an everyday scrub in this league, how is it he notched some impressive rushing games against the leagues better run defenses i.e. Atlanta and Jets? How is it he managed a 100 yard game AND MORENO CAN'T? AND WHAT DOES THAT SAY ABOUT MORENO?????

So ive been a bronco fan for about a couple months? :laugh:

When was atlanta or the jets a great defense when we played them? Hillis was a guy who had a couple nice games out of what? Yeah crown his ass. If he didnt forget how to block then why didnt he play over larsen @ FB? Hillis just KNEW hed be coverted to RB and when he wasnt he chilled out. Fell in the doghouse, Moreno has a season where he had 950 rushing yards. hillis?

[broncobryce]

(throws away old shitty underwear)

[TXBRONC]

(throws away old shitty underwear)

Did not need to know Bryce. :tsk:

[Lonestar]

Not too far fetched an idea considering the fact that Shanahan said BT was the reason the Broncos went after Clarett.



Ok then. Now that presents another issue. Why let Bobby Turner go. If that is the case and Turner did indeed pick Moreno. My guess is that pick was based in large part on the ZBS. Now the scheme and BT are gone. Now what are we to think? :confused: Are we to believe McDaniels is short sighted and picked a back only to find out a season later he wont fit the team's needs?



Ostrich head meet sand. I am not being mean here, Jrwiz. However you are being very selective in what you are choosing to believe.

It was well documented Josh's meddling with the D and how it was to be orchestrated and implemented. If he is willing to cross to the other side of the ball he certainly wouldn't have any problems being all hands on with the O.



Again....why let Turner walk? :confused: If you are going to invest as heavily in Moreno as you did, why let the best mentor in the game for him walk out of town?



There was something there all along. We know everything but what the "issue" was.



The problem with this theory is this: IF BT actually held Hillis back why would he do it for a second year in a row!!!! It doesn't make sense!

McDaniels had the benefit over Shanahan in knowing what Hillis was capable of. He should have especially known seeing how Hillis thrashed the same Jets team that kept the Pats out of the playoffs!


I remember an article IIRC in the DP about BT having the say in who got reps in practice, and therefore would played on sunday.

It is not hard to believe at all that BT could have been feeding both Mikey and Josh erroneous stuff about PH works ethic or that he was not ready to go because he was not up on the current week play book.

By doing so with Josh it was to defend his pick of another GA RB in Moreno knowing that both TD and one other tailback both came from GA and did well in his system.

That plus the hype that SAN was looking hard at him. That gets us Moreno whom I think will blossom this year after getting up to speed with the length of the season as well as the "speed" of the D.

I'm also guessing that Josh was not over joyed at keeping some coaches. BT and Rick among them. I'm sure he wanted to bring in his own guys but was limited due to the fact the running game and OLINE were a mainstay here. I suspect both wore out their welcome with the way their players did not perform.

BY that I mean there is not doubt in my mind that he came in and said we are going to get bigger, stronger, faster can your guys do this while shifting over to the PBS?

Since neither has had any experience doing it I'm pretty sure they said they can make the change, (read mikey was not around to give them a job).


As far as interfering with the coaches.

What happened with Nolan was mainly an end of year issue he was told at some point this year to do X and he choose not to. At the EOY they decided they liked each other even less then initially thought and parted ways.

Is he a micro manager like mikey was having cameras installed in all of the meeting rooms to watch what was going on? Hard to say if those cameras still exist or if they are being used.

If the above is not the reason why Hillis was not playing the ONLY other plausible reason is he was caught with his hand on mikey's and Josh's wives ass.:laugh:

[honz]

78 posts and counting! I caught me a big one this time!

[Bosco]

Links? http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/players/563214


That doesn't change my point one bit, Bosco. If anything, it drives it home more! If Shanahan can risk losing the LR, which he acknowledged happened (but didn't expect), why can't McDaniels be as frank with some scrub near practice squad less important of a position in FB Hillis? Wouldn't you agree that it's smart to avoid the distraction?

[jhildebrand]

So ive been a bronco fan for about a couple months? :laugh:

You tell me! From my vantage point you look like a Tebow fan :lol: Just sayin.



When was atlanta or the jets a great defense when we played them?

Well seeing how Hillis only 'played' for us for two seasons. I think you could figure it out. Afterall, you have been a Bronco fan for a long time....right? If you were you would know Atl had the best run d when we played them. Hillis gashed em.

The Jets were up there too. Only a season later and they were the league's best D. That doesn't happen overnight.



Hillis was a guy who had a couple nice games out of what?

Out of not that many. That is a couple nice games more than Moreno ever had!!!!

AGAIN, ANSWER THE QUESTION!!!!: If Hillis is basically a step above practice squad as you propose and even HE managed a 100 yard game, what the hell is Moreno's excuse and what does that make him? PLEASE ANSWER IT! A 7th rounder can get a 100 yard game and a 12th overall can't? :confused:



If he didnt forget how to block then why didnt he play over larsen @ FB?
Again, can you provude any substantive proof that Hillis "forgot" how to block? Because I can recall a great block in the Philly and Indy games. Blocks that came after failed Moreno rushes.

Nobody knows why Hillis was in the dog house. Again, if McDaniels would just come out and be honest this whole situation could have been avoided!



Hillis just KNEW hed be coverted to RB and when he wasnt he chilled out. Fell in the doghouse, Moreno has a season where he had 950 rushing yards. hillis?

So says the Denver Tebows fan :rolleyes:

[jhildebrand]

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/players/563214

Touche. I never saw a draft projection that high but alas! Nice find. :salute:



Wouldn't you agree that it's smart to avoid the distraction?

It would. Thats why he should have just been frank and ended all speculation. Instead he created a distraction. Like Honz said, this is 78 and counting ;)

[jhildebrand]

I
I'm also guessing that Josh was not over joyed at keeping some coaches. BT and Rick among them. I'm sure he wanted to bring in his own guys but was limited due to the fact the running game and OLINE were a mainstay here.


I like you jrwiz but you are talking yourself in circles here. I asked you this before and I will ask you again.

If you truly believe what I quoted from you above, why on earth would McDaniels put any stock into who BT wanted let alone draft that person? :confused:



BY that I mean there is not doubt in my mind that he came in and said we are going to get bigger, stronger, faster can your guys do this while shifting over to the PBS?

Again, why keep those coaches if you know you are going to make that change? Furthermore, why draft that RB knowing the scheme and coaches are likely to change in one season?



Since neither has had any experience doing it I'm pretty sure they said they can make the change, (read mikey was not around to give them a job).

Cheap shot! The fact is Miami almost HIRED BT as their HC over Cam Cameron




What happened with Nolan was mainly an end of year issue

I hate when people say something like I am about to say because it is HIGHLY UNBELIEVABLE but I am going to say it and take the flaming. I heard first hand from a player when the issue began with Nolan. It began in week 10 leading up to the Redskins game. The halfway point of the season so to speak.

[Bosco]

Touche. I never saw a draft projection that high but alas! Nice find. :salute: NFL Draft Scout was really the only draft site I used anymore. I just hope that CBS doesn't screw with the formula too much.


It would. Thats why he should have just been frank and ended all speculation. Instead he created a distraction. Like Honz said, this is 78 and counting ;) To my knowledge there was never any distraction. Sure the fanbase might have bitched and moaned but we're irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. As for the locker room, any of the guys from the 2008 team knew what the deal was with Peyton and any of the guys McD brought in for 2009 aren't the types to rock the boat.

[jhildebrand]

To my knowledge there was never any distraction.

Come on, Bosco! McDaniels refused to answer anything about Hillis from about week 11 on! That alone tells you it is a distraction.



Sure the fanbase might have bitched and moaned but we're irrelevant in the grand scheme of things.

Agreed.



As for the locker room, any of the guys from the 2008 team knew what the deal was with Peyton

Which was? :confused: You make these bold proclamations yet fail to back them. I recall several of those players on the FAN expressing the same sentiment and confusion as to why Hillis wasn't getting the rock.



and any of the guys McD brought in for 2009 aren't the types to rock the boat.

Hillis didn't rock the boat either. As evidenced by McD's season ending presser!

[dogfish]

It is not hard to believe at all that BT could have been feeding both Mikey and Josh erroneous stuff about PH works ethic

:

:confused:



http://img641.imageshack.us/img641/5885/71150194.jpg (http://img641.imageshack.us/i/71150194.jpg/)


:questionmark:



:noidea:

[Bosco]

Come on, Bosco! McDaniels refused to answer anything about Hillis from about week 11 on! That alone tells you it is a distraction. Or does it tell you he was just classy enough to not say "Hillis is too stupid to play in a pro offense and I can't keep putting him on the field when he's ******* up all the time."


Which was? :confused: You make these bold proclamations yet fail to back them. Which bold proclamation do you want backed up?


I recall several of those players on the FAN expressing the same sentiment and confusion as to why Hillis wasn't getting the rock. Which players? Do you have links to these interviews?


Hillis didn't rock the boat either. As evidenced by McD's season ending presser! That's because for the most part, Peyton is a pretty decent guy. He's not above pissing and moaning about his role, but he's not bad enough about it that it causes rifts in the team.

[Elevation inc]

Not too far fetched an idea considering the fact that Shanahan said BT was the reason the Broncos went after Clarett.



Ok then. Now that presents another issue. Why let Bobby Turner go. If that is the case and Turner did indeed pick Moreno. My guess is that pick was based in large part on the ZBS. Now the scheme and BT are gone. Now what are we to think? :confused: Are we to believe McDaniels is short sighted and picked a back only to find out a season later he wont fit the team's needs?



Ostrich head meet sand. I am not being mean here, Jrwiz. However you are being very selective in what you are choosing to believe.

It was well documented Josh's meddling with the D and how it was to be orchestrated and implemented. If he is willing to cross to the other side of the ball he certainly wouldn't have any problems being all hands on with the O.



Again....why let Turner walk? :confused: If you are going to invest as heavily in Moreno as you did, why let the best mentor in the game for him walk out of town?



There was something there all along. We know everything but what the "issue" was.



The problem with this theory is this: IF BT actually held Hillis back why would he do it for a second year in a row!!!! It doesn't make sense!

McDaniels had the benefit over Shanahan in knowing what Hillis was capable of. He should have especially known seeing how Hillis thrashed the same Jets team that kept the Pats out of the playoffs!



Actually he didnt want BT to walk.....it wasnt untill Shanny elevated BT role from Rb's coach to Associate head coach with washington that MCd had to let him go becasue it was a promotion.....Shanny tried to hire BT first Unilaterally and MCD refused....Shanny then came back with a promotion for BT and MCD let him leave since really he couldnt tell him no.......

MCD didnt let BT walk.....BT got promoted and went to work with the coach he had known for years and just got a promotion from....