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View Full Version : Orton or Quinn a good fit for Vikings?



DenBronx
08-03-2010, 12:38 PM
The the recent announcement that Favre will retire (for the 5th time) might have the Vikings in a little QB blunder. Would they come knocking at our door for a QB? Orton has 1 year left on his contract, he's a decent game manager and might fit the Vikes until next year. I could see them making a deal based on some sort of extension.

I don't buy that Favres retiring at all but if he does they will need someone and there's really not a whole lot of options at this point for them.

I would rather see what Quinn can do. He's younger, stronger and has way more physically talented than Orton. But if the right price was offered to us I say send him packing as well. We invested alot in Tebow and I'd like to see him on the field alot this year, even if he isn't as good as the others at least he gains experience.

My question is. What do you think either Orton or Quinn would be worth to the Vikings?

Ravage!!!
08-03-2010, 12:41 PM
I think the Vikings were planning on Favre retiring, and this doesn't come to a shock to them at all. I think they will move forward as they have with Jackson and Rosenfels. This is what they were planning to go with last season.

I don't think Vikings give up anything for either one.

BroncoWave
08-03-2010, 12:43 PM
All reports say that the Vikings are very comfortable with Jackson as their QB. I also don't think the Broncos want to be one injury away from having Tebow as their only QB.

silkamilkamonico
08-03-2010, 12:44 PM
My question is. What do you think either Orton or Quinn would be worth to the Vikings?

I think a 5th-6th for Orton, or maybe a 6th-7th for Quinn. Not worth it, and more valuable to Denver right now than the late irrelevant round pick, if that.

Like Rav said, they haven't put all their hopes at QB for Favre.

DenBronx
08-03-2010, 12:45 PM
I think the Vikings were planning on Favre retiring, and this doesn't come to a shock to them at all. I think they will move forward as they have with Jackson and Rosenfels. This is what they were planning to go with last season.

I don't think Vikings give up anything for either one.

Well when your as close to the superbowl as they are I think they will at least have to see who else is out there. Jackson isn't and shouldn't even be an option for them. Orton IMO would do much better for them than either of the QB's they have at the moment.

Buy low and sell high.

BroncoWave
08-03-2010, 12:47 PM
Well when your as close to the superbowl as they are I think they will at least have to see who else is out there. Jackson isn't and shouldn't even be an option for them. Orton IMO would do much better for them than either of the QB's they have at the moment.

Buy low and sell high.

In what way would getting rid of either Orton or Quinn at this point be selling high? We wouldn't get squat for either one. McNabb only got a second round pick and he is way above the level of either of our guys.

And everything reported about how the Vikings feel about Jackson is contradictory to what you feel. But what do they know, they don't see him every day or anything.

silkamilkamonico
08-03-2010, 12:48 PM
Well when your as close to the superbowl as they are I think they will at least have to see who else is out there. Jackson isn't and shouldn't even be an option for them. Orton IMO would do much better for them than either of the QB's they have at the moment.

Buy low and sell high.

Orton's also on a 1 year contract, which diminishes his value with any team.

Considering they are ready to compete for a SuperBowl right now, it almost makes Quinn's value to them irrelevant.

Dreadnought
08-03-2010, 12:49 PM
Well when your as close to the superbowl as they are I think they will at least have to see who else is out there. Jackson isn't and shouldn't even be an option for them. Orton IMO would do much better for them than either of the QB's they have at the moment.

Buy low and sell high.

I'm not sure Orton is much of an upgrade over Rosenfels. Jackson? Yep, but then I think Jackson is a complete stiff

dogfish
08-03-2010, 01:10 PM
i really wish we could dump quinn on them, but they're not going to be interested-- he's not better than what they already have. . .

LTC Pain
08-03-2010, 01:12 PM
I've only been to the morning session of Day 1 training camp. Based on what I saw then, moving Orton now would pretty much spell a disaster for the Bronco's season. 1) I just don't see "NFL starting QB" written on Brady Quinn yet. Maybe he will make big strides during camp, who knows. 2) Tim Tebow is nowhere near ready to be the #2 QB for the Broncos or any NFL team. Yeah, he can run but unless he can check off and make decisions faster he's going to get splattered on pass plays. Accordingly 3) Any trade of Orton to the Vikings would have to mean Rosenfels coming to the Broncos (don't want Jackson) and I'm not sure he's an upgrade over Quinn or even a suitable backup. Bottom line, no way the Broncos move Orton this season.

Buff
08-03-2010, 01:16 PM
Favre will be starting by week 8.

Ravage!!!
08-03-2010, 01:22 PM
Favre will be starting by week 8.

:lol: :lol: :lol: You are probably right

topscribe
08-03-2010, 01:27 PM
I've only been to the morning session of Day 1 training camp. Based on what I saw then, moving Orton now would pretty much spell a disaster for the Bronco's season. 1) I just don't see "NFL starting QB" written on Brady Quinn yet. Maybe he will make big strides during camp, who knows. 2) Tim Tebow is nowhere near ready to be the #2 QB for the Broncos or any NFL team. Yeah, he can run but unless he can check off and make decisions faster he's going to get splattered on pass plays. Accordingly 3) Any trade of Orton to the Vikings would have to mean Rosenfels coming to the Broncos (don't want Jackson) and I'm not sure he's an upgrade over Quinn or even a suitable backup. Bottom line, no way the Broncos move Orton this season.

Thank you. I'm grateful the Broncos are stupid enough to trade off Orton, for
any price this year. Same with Quinn, actually . . .

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titan
08-03-2010, 01:36 PM
Orton could win a Super Bowl with the Vikings this year; he'd be a better qb than Tavaris Jackson in that system. Plus he's familiar with the teams and defenses in that division from his days with the Bears. The Broncos shouldn't think about it unless the Vikings made an offer the team couldn't refuse - like a young impact defensive starter or starter on the oline and a good draft pick. If the offer is a 4th or 5th round draft choice only, I say forget it.

Trading Orton would no doubt hurt the Broncos chances for competing this year, but if it helped the team long term I'd be for it. Some say Tebow isn't ready to be a #2 qb in the NFL - I think he's more ready than Bradley Van Pelt was (the Broncos #2 qb in 2005 where the team was 1 win away from the Super Bowl)

CrazyHorse
08-03-2010, 01:40 PM
Favre will be starting by week 8.

No. He doesn't wan't to break his consecutive start streak.

Shazam!
08-03-2010, 02:02 PM
This just proves what most of us know, that Farve is a piece of ******* shit. Screws over the Vikes just like he did GB and NYJ. I hate him.

rationalfan
08-03-2010, 02:06 PM
of course this is all fantasy, but none of you want rosenfels on the broncos team. reports from vikings' camp are that he threw six picks in two sessions and looked like jake delhomme did last year.

as for the trade value of either orton or quinn, it's better than what you'd think. qbs are at a premium during camps. and given xanders/mcdaniels' ability to fleece teams in trades, i'd expect at least a third round pick for either orton or quinn.

LTC Pain
08-03-2010, 02:14 PM
of course this is all fantasy, but none of you want rosenfels on the broncos team. reports from vikings' camp are that he threw six picks in two sessions and looked like jake delhomme did last year.

as for the trade value of either orton or quinn, it's better than what you'd think. qbs are at a premium during camps. and given xanders/mcdaniels' ability to fleece teams in trades, i'd expect at least a third round pick for either orton or quinn.

Some fantasizers say Orton to the Vikes works for the Vikes but I'm concerned about what works for the Broncos. I just don't see anything coming back the Broncos way that makes sense. It would put the Broncos's season on Quinn's shoulders and I'm not sure he's ready. The Broncos would have to get a QB in the trade with a high pick for Orton. No way Tebow is a #2 QB yet and if Rosenfal is dog poo (I know Jackson is) then trading Orton to the Vikes is a failure of epic proportions.

Dirk
08-03-2010, 02:19 PM
No way. I'm still of the mind that Orton will have a PB caliber season this year.:coffee:

topscribe
08-03-2010, 02:20 PM
Orton could win a Super Bowl with the Vikings this year; he'd be a better qb than Tavaris Jackson in that system. Plus he's familiar with the teams and defenses in that division from his days with the Bears. The Broncos shouldn't think about it unless the Vikings made an offer the team couldn't refuse - like a young impact defensive starter or starter on the oline and a good draft pick. If the offer is a 4th or 5th round draft choice only, I say forget it.

Trading Orton would no doubt hurt the Broncos chances for competing this year, but if it helped the team long term I'd be for it. Some say Tebow isn't ready to be a #2 qb in the NFL - I think he's more ready than Bradley Van Pelt was (the Broncos #2 qb in 2005 where the team was 1 win away from the Super Bowl)

Just about anybody was more ready than BVP. :lol:

But don't forget that ahead of him was who was then the #5 QB in the league . . .

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SOCALORADO.
08-03-2010, 03:01 PM
I actually think QB Joe Webb is secretly the next QB in MIN.
Very talented, but a bit raw. I think he played QB in college though, and chili was really impressed with him throwing the football instead of at WR.

Lonestar
08-03-2010, 03:26 PM
Well when your as close to the superbowl as they are I think they will at least have to see who else is out there. Jackson isn't and shouldn't even be an option for them. Orton IMO would do much better for them than either of the QB's they have at the moment.

Buy low and sell high.

Let's see if I have this right Orton is ok to take them to the superbowl but not us?


Just incerdible Just incredible
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

Northman
08-03-2010, 03:31 PM
Quinn could probably be a good fit in Minny but im just not sure if they are interested.

SoCalImport
08-03-2010, 03:32 PM
We are better off with the QBs we have than we would be without any one of them. So it's a no thanks.
Unless they can somehow magic up an OBVIOUS upgrade.

honz
08-03-2010, 03:36 PM
Not gonna happen.

Magnificent Seven
08-03-2010, 03:53 PM
I would trade Quinn for Toby Gerhart. I am a huge fan of Gerhart at Stanford. I would love to see him in blue and orange uniform. He is a big Elway fan, too.

topscribe
08-03-2010, 03:56 PM
Let's see if I have this right Orton is ok to take them to the superbowl but not us?


Just incerdible Just incredible
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

At this point, he might have had a better chance of taking them to the SB, instead of us . . .

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Poet
08-03-2010, 03:58 PM
I'm not sure Orton is much of an upgrade over Rosenfels. Jackson? Yep, but then I think Jackson is a complete stiff

Orton has less injury issues than Rosenfels, and Rosenfels is prone to bad decisions.

Jackson, while probably ruined now, actually could have been a good QB. At this point I expect him to be an awesome career backup. :D

Superchop 7
08-03-2010, 04:13 PM
Thank you. I'm grateful the Broncos are stupid enough to trade off Orton, for
any price this year. Same with Quinn, actually . . .

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__________________________________________________ _____________________________________

Yeah Top, Orton is the only "starting" QB we have from what I saw.

The other guys have a long ways to go before they will flourish in the system.

If Orton goes down early in the year......we are screwed.

T.K.O.
08-03-2010, 04:14 PM
could we get simms back ? that would be SWEEEEEEEEEEEEET !:shocked:

Sconnie Bronco
08-03-2010, 04:34 PM
Orton could win a Super Bowl with the Vikings this year; he'd be a better qb than Tavaris Jackson in that system. Plus he's familiar with the teams and defenses in that division from his days with the Bears. The Broncos shouldn't think about it unless the Vikings made an offer the team couldn't refuse - like a young impact defensive starter or starter on the oline and a good draft pick. If the offer is a 4th or 5th round draft choice only, I say forget it.

Trading Orton would no doubt hurt the Broncos chances for competing this year, but if it helped the team long term I'd be for it. Some say Tebow isn't ready to be a #2 qb in the NFL - I think he's more ready than Bradley Van Pelt was (the Broncos #2 qb in 2005 where the team was 1 win away from the Super Bowl)

I dont think so. Rice, Berrian, and Harvin all bring the deep threat. With Orton, that would be more or less wasted. And as much as defenses focus on stopping Peterson, the deep ball is something they should expect to be in their QB's repertoire.

topscribe
08-03-2010, 04:40 PM
I dont think so. Rice, Berrian, and Harvin all bring the deep threat. With Orton, that would be more or less wasted. And as much as defenses focus on stopping Peterson, the deep ball is something they should expect to be in their QB's repertoire.

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-videos/09000d5d8157ccd9/Kyle-Orton-Highlight-WK-17-vs-Chiefs-2009

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-videos/09000d5d8157cffa/Kyle-Orton-Highlight-WK-17-vs-Chiefs-2009

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-videos/09000d5d8157d532/Kyle-Orton-Highlight-WK-17-vs-Chiefs-2009

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-videos/09000d5d8157dddd/Kyle-Orton-Highlight-WK-17-vs-Chiefs-2009

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-videos/09000d5d815527af/Kyle-Orton-Highlight-WK-16-vs-Eagles-2009

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-videos/09000d5d815268bf/Kyle-Orton-Highlight-WK-15-vs-Raiders-2009

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-videos/09000d5d81485d3e/Kyle-Orton-Highlight-WK-12-vs-Giants-2009

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-videos/09000d5d81485e78/Kyle-Orton-Highlight-WK-12-vs-Giants-2009

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-videos/09000d5d81485fb5/Kyle-Orton-Highlight-WK-12-vs-Giants-2009

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-videos/09000d5d8146c5d0/Kyle-Orton-Highlight-WK-11-vs-Chargers-2009

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-videos/09000d5d8143d08d/Kyle-Orton-Highlight-WK-10-vs-Redskins-2009

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-videos/09000d5d8143d0af/Kyle-Orton-Highlight-WK-10-vs-Redskins-2009

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-videos/09000d5d8138f65f/Kyle-Orton-Highlight-WK-06-vs-Chargers-2009

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-videos/09000d5d8138f6c6/Kyle-Orton-Highlight-WK-06-vs-Chargers-2009

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-cant-miss-plays/09000d5d813263e0/WK-4-Can-t-Miss-Play-Grand-Marshall

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-fantasy/09000d5d812cb4f0/Kyle-Orton-Highlight-WK-02-vs-Browns-2009

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-fantasy/09000d5d812cc6fa/Kyle-Orton-Highlight-WK-02-vs-Browns-2009

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-fantasy/09000d5d812cca3d/Kyle-Orton-Highlight-WK-02-vs-Browns-2009

http://www.nfl.com/videos/cincinnati-bengals/09000d5d8129c22d/Kyle-Orton-Highlight-WK-01-vs-Bengals-2009

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d80db8b0b/Kyle-Orton-Highlight-WK-17-vs-Texans-2008

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d80d22fea/Kyle-Orton-Highlight-WK-14-vs-Jaguars-2008

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d80d2421f/Kyle-Orton-Highlight-WK-14-vs-Jaguars-2008

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d80cbf7c1/Kyle-Orton-Highlight-WK-12-vs-Rams-2008

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d80b672f9/Kyle-Orton-Highlight-WK-05-vs-Lions-2008

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d80b6768c/Kyle-Orton-Highlight-WK-05-vs-Lions-2008

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d80b677fd/Kyle-Orton-Highlight-WK-05-vs-Lions-2008

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d80b67b0f/Kyle-Orton-Highlight-WK-05-vs-Lions-2008

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d80b0629f/Kyle-Orton-Highlight-WK-03-vs-Buccaneers-2008

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d80aa2733/Kyle-Orton-Highlight-WK-01-vs-Colts-2008

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d80ad2b7a/Kyle-Orton-Highlight-WK-02-vs-Panthers-2008

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d805a03f3/Kyle-Orton-Highlight-WK-17-vs-Saints-2007


Orton doesn't have any particular problem going deep. Let's put that myth to rest . . .

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Sconnie Bronco
08-03-2010, 04:48 PM
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-videos/09000d5d8157ccd9/Kyle-Orton-Highlight-WK-17-vs-Chiefs-2009

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-videos/09000d5d8157cffa/Kyle-Orton-Highlight-WK-17-vs-Chiefs-2009

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-videos/09000d5d8157d532/Kyle-Orton-Highlight-WK-17-vs-Chiefs-2009

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-videos/09000d5d8157dddd/Kyle-Orton-Highlight-WK-17-vs-Chiefs-2009

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-videos/09000d5d815527af/Kyle-Orton-Highlight-WK-16-vs-Eagles-2009

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-videos/09000d5d815268bf/Kyle-Orton-Highlight-WK-15-vs-Raiders-2009

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-videos/09000d5d81485d3e/Kyle-Orton-Highlight-WK-12-vs-Giants-2009

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-videos/09000d5d81485e78/Kyle-Orton-Highlight-WK-12-vs-Giants-2009

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-videos/09000d5d81485fb5/Kyle-Orton-Highlight-WK-12-vs-Giants-2009

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-videos/09000d5d8146c5d0/Kyle-Orton-Highlight-WK-11-vs-Chargers-2009

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-videos/09000d5d8143d08d/Kyle-Orton-Highlight-WK-10-vs-Redskins-2009

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-videos/09000d5d8143d0af/Kyle-Orton-Highlight-WK-10-vs-Redskins-2009

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-videos/09000d5d8138f65f/Kyle-Orton-Highlight-WK-06-vs-Chargers-2009

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-videos/09000d5d8138f6c6/Kyle-Orton-Highlight-WK-06-vs-Chargers-2009

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-cant-miss-plays/09000d5d813263e0/WK-4-Can-t-Miss-Play-Grand-Marshall

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-fantasy/09000d5d812cb4f0/Kyle-Orton-Highlight-WK-02-vs-Browns-2009

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-fantasy/09000d5d812cc6fa/Kyle-Orton-Highlight-WK-02-vs-Browns-2009

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-fantasy/09000d5d812cca3d/Kyle-Orton-Highlight-WK-02-vs-Browns-2009

http://www.nfl.com/videos/cincinnati-bengals/09000d5d8129c22d/Kyle-Orton-Highlight-WK-01-vs-Bengals-2009

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d80db8b0b/Kyle-Orton-Highlight-WK-17-vs-Texans-2008

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d80d22fea/Kyle-Orton-Highlight-WK-14-vs-Jaguars-2008

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d80d2421f/Kyle-Orton-Highlight-WK-14-vs-Jaguars-2008

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d80cbf7c1/Kyle-Orton-Highlight-WK-12-vs-Rams-2008

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d80b672f9/Kyle-Orton-Highlight-WK-05-vs-Lions-2008

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d80b6768c/Kyle-Orton-Highlight-WK-05-vs-Lions-2008

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d80b677fd/Kyle-Orton-Highlight-WK-05-vs-Lions-2008

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d80b67b0f/Kyle-Orton-Highlight-WK-05-vs-Lions-2008

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d80b0629f/Kyle-Orton-Highlight-WK-03-vs-Buccaneers-2008

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d80aa2733/Kyle-Orton-Highlight-WK-01-vs-Colts-2008

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d80ad2b7a/Kyle-Orton-Highlight-WK-02-vs-Panthers-2008

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d805a03f3/Kyle-Orton-Highlight-WK-17-vs-Saints-2007


Orton doesn't have any particular problem going deep. Let's put that myth to rest . . .

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That might mean something to someone who has never seen him play.

BTW, some of those plays youre calling deep balls were only 20-30 yards downfield.

topscribe
08-03-2010, 05:02 PM
That might mean something to someone who has never seen him play.

BTW, some of those plays youre calling deep balls were only 20-30 yards downfield.

I have seen nearly every one of Orton's games since the first of 2008. You have
noooo idea just how well I know Orton. None. Zilch. Nada.

Nonetheless, I infer from your second sentence that you want a QB who will
pass no less than 40 yards a shot? Or is that 50?

Did you realize the field is 53 yards wide? And the QB may have to throw up
to 40-50 yards to get it 30 yards downfield? Trust me: 20-30 yards are
deep balls. In anybody's language - who knows football, that is.

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Sconnie Bronco
08-03-2010, 05:57 PM
I have seen nearly every one of Orton's games since the first of 2008. You have
noooo idea just how well I know Orton. None. Zilch. Nada.

Nonetheless, I infer from your second sentence that you want a QB who will
pass no less than 40 yards a shot? Or is that 50?

Did you realize the field is 53 yards wide? And the QB may have to throw up
to 40-50 yards to get it 30 yards downfield? Trust me: 20-30 yards are
deep balls. In anybody's language - who knows football, that is.

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Im still not buying it.

If you go by the pythagorean theorem, a 25 yard bomb standing in the middle of the field is still only a 36 yard pass.

claymore
08-03-2010, 05:59 PM
Im still not buying it.

If you go by the pythagorean theorem, a 25 yard bomb standing in the middle of the field is still only a 36 yard pass.

Thats exactly what I was gonna say

jhildebrand
08-03-2010, 06:10 PM
Favre will be there. Mark my words! He will be there by week 1. If he truly wasn't going to play he would have told the Vikings much sooner than a day or two before camp kicks off. He wouldn't screw a team like that. Favre is a lot of things but he isn't a guy that would do that to a club and team he likes as much as the Vikes.

As soon as this broke I thought one thing. $$$$$ He wants to get paid. Already the Vikes are offering him more than the $13 he is scheduled to make! This is all about money. I know it sounds crazy but this will truly be Favre's last go round and he wants to make the most of it-literally and figuratively.

camdisco24
08-03-2010, 06:23 PM
Without Orton this season, no way we get over .500
I can't believe some people actually think we would unload him... :laugh:

elsid13
08-03-2010, 06:43 PM
I have seen nearly every one of Orton's games since the first of 2008. You have
noooo idea just how well I know Orton. None. Zilch. Nada.

Nonetheless, I infer from your second sentence that you want a QB who will
pass no less than 40 yards a shot? Or is that 50?

Did you realize the field is 53 yards wide? And the QB may have to throw up
to 40-50 yards to get it 30 yards downfield? Trust me: 20-30 yards are
deep balls. In anybody's language - who knows football, that is.

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Throwing deep is one of most overrated theories in today's modern game. Most teams throw deep (over 25 yards) only 3 to 5 times a game. When offense run average of over 60 plays that at max 8% of the game calls. Sure Orton has the ability to throw "deep", he a NFL QB. Even Brian Griese had the ability to launch a ball 50 yards in the air.

What Orton doesn't have is the ability to make the deep outs outside the opposite hash mark or the ability to put the ball in between the CB/LB window on the slants, with the CB is sitting over the receivers' shoulder. This "lack" of power arm in the short to intermediate zones allowed defense to roll coverage up and cause the offense to struggle because it based upon short passing game in the spread formation. Mesh routes, outs and slants becomes unavailable to this team with that type of coverage.

If Orton had quick release (like Manning, Rivers or Brees) then this lack of arm wouldn't be problem, but he has average release time and that compounds the problem. If Orton had the ability to move outside the pocket then McDaniels could have rolled the plays and allowed plays like the sluggo and post routes to develop and make the defense pay, but we all know that Orton is as mobile as Slim after all you can eat Chinese Buffet.

There is reason that McDaniels went and got TWO QBs to replace Orton this off season and wasn't because he need two more players in his bridge game. Right now they start him because he is only proven QB that they have, but if one of the other two show any promise and Orton struggles the plug will be pulled on the Orton era in Denver.

topscribe
08-03-2010, 06:56 PM
Throwing deep is one of most overrated theories in today's modern game. Most teams throw deep (over 25 yards) only 3 to 5 times a game. When offense run average of over 60 plays that at max 8% of the game calls. Sure Orton has the ability to throw "deep", he a NFL QB. Even Brian Griese had the ability to launch a ball 50 yards in the air.

What Orton doesn't have is the ability to make the deep outs outside the opposite hash mark or the ability to put the ball in between the CB/LB window on the slants, with the CB is sitting over the receivers' shoulder. This "lack" of power arm in the short to intermediate zones allowed defense to roll coverage up and cause the offense to struggle because it based upon short passing game in the spread formation. Mesh routes, outs and slants becomes unavailable to this team with that type of coverage.

If Orton had quick release (like Manning, Rivers or Brees) then this lack of arm wouldn't be problem, but he has average release time and that compounds the problem. If Orton had the ability to move outside the pocket then McDaniels could have rolled the plays and allowed plays like the sluggo and post routes to develop and make the defense pay, but we all know that Orton is as mobile as Slim after all you can eat Chinese Buffet.

There is reason that McDaniels went and got TWO QBs to replace Orton this off season and wasn't because he need two more players in his bridge game. Right now they start him because he is only proven QB that they have, but if one of the other two show any promise and Orton struggles the plug will be pulled on the Orton era in Denver.

Here we go with the "there is a reason" crap again. Giving your guess as to
why the Broncos acquired whom they did and representing it as fact. Of
course, "there is a reason." It just so happens it may not be your reason.

As to the rest of this garbage, I call B.S. unless you can provide some
documentation to back up what you said.

Meanwhile, I'm declaring to everybody the sky is green. I don't care what you
say. I've seen the sky. It is green. What's more, trees can grow out of clouds.
Because I said so . . .

-----

topscribe
08-03-2010, 07:00 PM
Im still not buying it.

If you go by the pythagorean theorem, a 25 yard bomb standing in the middle of the field is still only a 36 yard pass.

Bingo! I've been figuring out actual distances and posting them here for some
time now - like the last 1½ years. So before you begin to post to others as if
they've lived in a sealed bomb shelter for the past few years, feel your way
around and find out what everybody knows and what they've posted. I don't
feel like starting all over with every n00b that appears on the board. Sorry.

Now, I know this is extreme and probably has happened only with John Elway,
but if a QB throws 25 yards downfield, from one sideline to the other, the ball
has actually traveled 58.6 yards.

If he is standing dead center between the hash marks (which are 6 feet apart)
and throws 25 yards downfield and to the sideline, the ball has traveled
exactly 36.4314424638937 yards. If he throws the ball 30 yards to the
sideline, the ball travels exactly 40.0281151192509 yards.

Now, go back to my post and notice I said up to 40-50 yards.

Any questions? :coffee:

-----

dogfish
08-03-2010, 07:12 PM
Any questions? :coffee:

-----

top, i've got one. . . .

does orton pay you to argue this stuff with the rest of the world?


:heh:

topscribe
08-03-2010, 07:14 PM
top, i've got one. . . .

does orton pay you to argue this stuff with the rest of the world?


:heh:

What would you like to talk about, Dog?

I'll talk over anything with you . . . :love:

-----

TXBRONC
08-03-2010, 07:38 PM
The the recent announcement that Favre will retire (for the 5th time) might have the Vikings in a little QB blunder. Would they come knocking at our door for a QB? Orton has 1 year left on his contract, he's a decent game manager and might fit the Vikes until next year. I could see them making a deal based on some sort of extension.

I don't buy that Favres retiring at all but if he does they will need someone and there's really not a whole lot of options at this point for them.

I would rather see what Quinn can do. He's younger, stronger and has way more physically talented than Orton. But if the right price was offered to us I say send him packing as well. We invested alot in Tebow and I'd like to see him on the field alot this year, even if he isn't as good as the others at least he gains experience.

My question is. What do you think either Orton or Quinn would be worth to the Vikings?

I think they're going to give Jackson one more shot at it.

HORSEPOWER 56
08-03-2010, 07:49 PM
top, i've got one. . . .

does orton pay you to argue this stuff with the rest of the world?


:heh:

All I can say is, it sure is a good thing for folks who like to use highlight reel footage to argue for a player that no idiot wastes his time making lowlight reel footage to match.

Nobody wants to see guys stinking it up out there. I've seen enough actual game play from most NFL QBs to say that even a blind squirrel finds a nut sometimes. I've seen Jason Campbell, Alex Smith, and David Garrard connect on just as many long throws... Still don't mean I want them to QB my Broncos... And it doesn't make them a good QB, either.

BroncoWave
08-03-2010, 08:05 PM
All I can say is, it sure is a good thing for folks who like to use highlight reel footage to argue for a player that no idiot wastes his time making lowlight reel footage to match.

This is a great point. Highlight tapes can make any player look like a hall of famer. It is very easy to ask for someone to show other videos proving him wrong when this poster knows damn well that no one actually makes lowlight tapes.

topscribe
08-03-2010, 08:18 PM
All I can say is, it sure is a good thing for folks who like to use highlight reel footage to argue for a player that no idiot wastes his time making lowlight reel footage to match.

Nobody wants to see guys stinking it up out there. I've seen enough actual game play from most NFL QBs to say that even a blind squirrel finds a nut sometimes. I've seen Jason Campbell, Alex Smith, and David Garrard connect on just as many long throws... Still don't mean I want them to QB my Broncos... And it doesn't make them a good QB, either.

I don't disagree. To calculate whether a QB is or can be a good QB, one has to
see prodigious amounts of that QB's playing time (which I have). The primary
purpose for that collection of videos is to rebut those who have made statements
such as, he can't/won't throw it deep, or he can't pass beyond 15 yards down
the field. It doesn't take many examples to show that he can and will. That is
what I did.

But to imply that is all the I have presented for evidence is either not to have
been here all along or not to have been conscious all along.

But I still insist the sky is green, and there is nothing you can say or do to
convince me otherwise . . .

-----

Sconnie Bronco
08-03-2010, 09:50 PM
Throwing deep is one of most overrated theories in today's modern game. Most teams throw deep (over 25 yards) only 3 to 5 times a game. When offense run average of over 60 plays that at max 8% of the game calls. Sure Orton has the ability to throw "deep", he a NFL QB. Even Brian Griese had the ability to launch a ball 50 yards in the air.

What Orton doesn't have is the ability to make the deep outs outside the opposite hash mark or the ability to put the ball in between the CB/LB window on the slants, with the CB is sitting over the receivers' shoulder. This "lack" of power arm in the short to intermediate zones allowed defense to roll coverage up and cause the offense to struggle because it based upon short passing game in the spread formation. Mesh routes, outs and slants becomes unavailable to this team with that type of coverage.

If Orton had quick release (like Manning, Rivers or Brees) then this lack of arm wouldn't be problem, but he has average release time and that compounds the problem. If Orton had the ability to move outside the pocket then McDaniels could have rolled the plays and allowed plays like the sluggo and post routes to develop and make the defense pay, but we all know that Orton is as mobile as Slim after all you can eat Chinese Buffet.

There is reason that McDaniels went and got TWO QBs to replace Orton this off season and wasn't because he need two more players in his bridge game. Right now they start him because he is only proven QB that they have, but if one of the other two show any promise and Orton struggles the plug will be pulled on the Orton era in Denver.

Say what you will. It becomes important when defenses dont respect the deep ball and they crowd the line of scrimmage, which we've seen in great abundance.

TXBRONC
08-04-2010, 09:07 AM
All I can say is, it sure is a good thing for folks who like to use highlight reel footage to argue for a player that no idiot wastes his time making lowlight reel footage to match.

Nobody wants to see guys stinking it up out there. I've seen enough actual game play from most NFL QBs to say that even a blind squirrel finds a nut sometimes. I've seen Jason Campbell, Alex Smith, and David Garrard connect on just as many long throws... Still don't mean I want them to QB my Broncos... And it doesn't make them a good QB, either.

No kidding. BFD that someone puts a string of highlights together, you could find just as many lowlights.

Northman
08-04-2010, 09:35 AM
top, i've got one. . . .

does orton pay you to argue this stuff with the rest of the world?


:heh:

No shit. :lol:

Dirk
08-04-2010, 05:33 PM
I'm on your side Top! :salute:

Dirk
08-04-2010, 05:35 PM
I've seen Jason Campbell, Alex Smith, and David Garrard connect on just as many long throws... Still don't mean I want them to QB my Broncos... And it doesn't make them a good QB, either.

I will agree with you on Smith and Garrard....but I think everyone is going to be shocked on how good Jason Campbell is going to become in the next 2 years. He actually has the talent and it was being wasted away in Washington with all the headjobs he was getting.

Jagsbch
08-04-2010, 11:23 PM
ENGLEWOOD, Colo. -- For a moment, let's put aside the Tim Tebow hysteria and focus on the reality of the Denver Broncos' quarterback situation.

Which is this: Kyle Orton is clearly their No. 1 guy.

Tebow is, by far, the most popular player at Broncos training camp. But the first-round draft pick from Florida remains a long way from being ready to start -- or even see significant playing time -- as a rookie.


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Brady Quinn, acquired during the offseason from the Cleveland Browns, has looked impressive during workouts. But he has plenty to learn in an offense that is similar to the one he ran at Notre Dame, yet with several differences now that it's been six years since Broncos coach Josh McDaniels and former Notre Dame coach Charlie Weis stopped working together in New England.

Orton knows the scheme better than the other quarterbacks on the roster, and it shows. When running plays in offseason and camp practices, he displays a great deal of confidence, far more than he had after arriving here last year from the Chicago Bears. He's calm, and he throws with tremendous accuracy.

"All of my thoughts have been on self-competition, making myself a better player," Orton said. "I know, if I'm playing my best ball, where I'm going to be on Sundays -- just trying to do what I've got to do to get us in a winning position."

McDaniels said he is pleased with all three quarterbacks but pointed out that "they're at different stages of their development in our system. When we teach and install (the offense), we're teaching to the highest common denominator, and right now that's Kyle."

Orton cites being fully healthy for the first time in a long while as the primary reason for his ability to perform well. Second, he has a much better understanding of the offense.

Camp preview: Need to rush
Who, besides last year's NFL sack leader Elvis Dumervil, can provide a pass rush for the Broncos? That's just one question facing the team in training camp. More ...
"Hopefully that'll allow the communication to be so much better on Sundays," Orton said. "Last year, we could put two or three good plays together, where everybody's doing the right thing. But we had a heck of time trying to find 10 or 11 plays in a row. That's what you've got to do in the league to score."

MacDaniels, too, has noticed the change in Orton.

"The speed at which he's playing mentally, and then couple that with the fact that he's making very few mistakes physically, or with the football, that's a good thing," McDaniels said. "I've seen that happen before (with Tom Brady and Matt Cassel in New England), and it's led to good things."

OBSERVATION DECK

» The Broncos are still trying to rebound from the double whammy they received when their top two running backs suffered injuries on the first day of practice: Knowshon Moreno (hamstring) and Correll Buckhalter (back). If Moreno is able to return in a few weeks as the team is saying, it might be something the Broncos can weather. If it lingers, who knows, especially with Buckhalter's status up in the air? Moreno was injured last summer after a camp holdout, causing his rookie season to get off to a slow start. The coaches were hopeful that he'd be able to participate fully this summer and get off to a faster start.

There isn't much in the way of experienced depth at running back. Kolby Smith has nine career starts, all with Kansas City in 2007 and 2008, making him the only other back on the roster who has started. He has missed large chunks of the last two seasons with injuries. Smith now has an opportunity to prove right the multiple Broncos player-personnel people who believe he has considerable potential to move up the depth chart.

"Yeah, it gets you nervous; they're two of our best players," Orton said of the injured rushers. "I don't think it's panic mode by any means. Hopefully, they get back real quick, but certainly you want your best players on the field all the time."


» Broncos: There's a fact lost in Tebowmania
» The offensive line could have at least one serious health issue with standout tackle Ryan Clady opening camp on the active/non-football list while recovering from a knee injury he suffered playing basketball in April. Clady was still moving with a noticeable limp during the offseason. The Broncos hope he'll be ready to play at the start of the season, but he could very well remain sidelined until October. Besides missing Clady's tremendous talent, the Broncos also could be forced into using more two-tight end sets to compensate for his absence, which could give opposing defenses a better feel for what's coming.

» One player who has been highly conspicuous by his absence on the field is behemoth nose tackle Jamal Williams, a 13-year veteran signed as a free agent from San Diego. Williams began camp on the active/physically unable to perform list because he couldn't pass the Broncos' pre-camp physical conditioning test. McDaniels said he's expecting Williams to get on the field "sooner rather than later." That's a good thing, because the Broncos are counting on him to be the anchor of their 3-4 defense and give them a much-needed run-stopper. They allowed 173 or more rushing yards in six of their final nine games last season, including 317 in the season finale against Kansas City. Most of the gains came up the middle.

The Broncos don't have much in the way of an alternative. Ron Fields started at nose tackle last year, and his struggles helped lead to the signing of Williams. Marcus Thomas worked inside in passing situations, but neither he nor Ryan McBean provides the physical presence that the Broncos sought in acquiring the ex-Charger.

» Throughout the offseason, Broncos defensive players have talked about new coordinator Don "Wink" Martindale installing a more aggressive scheme than they had under his predecessor, Mike Nolan. So far, there have been no obvious signs of that in camp, but there is reason to believe that it will change. Martindale is from the Rex Ryan School of Defense, having worked on Ryan's defensive staff at the University of Cincinnati. Martindale also coached linebackers for Ryan's twin brother, Rob, with the Oakland Raiders before coming to Denver. The Ryans -- beginning with their father, former NFL coordinator and head coach Buddy Ryan -- strongly believe in using a highly aggressive, in-your-face style of defense.

"For me, it's a no-brainer to play for a guy like Wink," said nine-year veteran defensive end Justin Bannan, whom the Broncos signed as a free agent from Baltimore, where Rex Ryan served as defensive coordinator. "I'm a Ryan guy, so Wink's the next best thing for me. I know what he expects, I know what he's thinking and what he wants. I've just got to make sure I provide that."



Look for Martindale to do all he can to maximize the impact of pass-rushing terror Elvis Dumervil, who led the NFL last season with 17 sacks after making an amazingly successful transition from end in the 4-3 to outside linebacker in the 3-4.

» By the way, it's easy to see why Dumervil is so successful. He has outstanding technique, taking full advantage of being relatively short at 5-foot-11 by getting low on his initial surge off the line and then pushing upward against much larger tackles who are often no match for his remarkable strength.

» It's hard to imagine the Broncos not missing Brandon Marshall (who they traded to the Broncos in the offseason), but it also wouldn't be correct to say that the outlook of the position is hopeless. Besides the strong possibilities of significant contribution from Thomas and Decker, the Broncos also have the makings of a solid corps that includes Brandon Lloyd, Eddie Royal, Jabar Gaffney, Brandon Stokley and Matt Willis.

"The receiver position is one that we're excited about, not discouraged and certainly not feeling sorry for ourselves," McDaniels said. "Brandon (Marshall) was a great player, and he's going to continue to be a great player. But we have numerous players at that position that are very unique and different. We've got speed, we've got size, we've got guys that can play in the slot, we've got versatility outside, we've got some young guys, we've got some older guys with experience. Whereas some teams may say, 'We have our surefire No. 1,' I'm not sure it's not better to have multiple guys that can really do a lot of good things."

SURPRISE, SURPRISE

» Willis, an undrafted free agent in 2008, had a strong offseason and is performing well in camp. Said veteran cornerback Champ Bailey: "He was our best receiver out there at times (during the offseason). He's an unknown guy, but I figure people should (be aware of him). It's just his competitiveness, speed, quickness. He really doesn't have any weaknesses. He's not afraid to go across the middle, and he's one of the smallest guys (at 6-foot, 190 pounds)."

» Free-agent linebacker Baraka Atkins is an interesting pickup. He performed well enough during offseason workouts to see some practice time with the starters in place of 2009 first-round choice Robert Ayers.

ROOKIE REPORT

» The Broncos' coaches will be challenged in trying to figure out what to do with Tebow this season. Keeping three quarterbacks active on game day is a risk teams generally do their best to avoid. But the Broncos just might take that chance in order to have Tebow available for Wildcat looks and other special situations that take advantage of his athletic skills.


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Another chance they're going to take is to work on some of the gadgetry they have in store for Tebow in public practices and preseason games, where anyone -- including someone gathering information for another team -- can watch.

"We understand that, if you're going to be good at something, you've got to practice it," McDaniels said. "At some point, somebody's going to see something. If we're running gadget plays out there -- whether they be reverses or flea-flickers or whatever -- people are going to see those. And we may have a few things that we experiment with, with Tim. We're not going to hide it because the only way to get good at something is to practice it."

Tebow seems to have made progress through the offseason with improving his mechanics, and elevating his release point so that he is able to get the ball out of his hand quicker than he did in college. The concern is how he reacts when he's under duress. Will he, as some current and former NFL coaches and scouts predict, revert to old habits?

» Wide receiver Demaryius Thomas, the Broncos' other first-rounder, looks impressive early in camp drills. The former Georgia Tech standout is raw, coming from a Triple Option offense that basically asked him to run slant and sideline routes. Still, he has considerable athleticism. The Broncos see the 6-3, 229-pound Thomas as having the ability to make an impact in the red zone because he is the kind of receiver who excels when locked up in one-on-one battles that take place near the goal line. He is physical and shows good body control. Eric Decker, a third-round pick from Minnesota, offers similar abilities with his 6-3, 220-pound frame.

» Second-rounder Zane Beadles, a guard from Utah, and J.D. Walton, a center from Baylor, have been working with the starters in practice. Both are exceptionally quick, they play with a mean streak and show considerable intelligence. Walton was the one collegiate offensive lineman who matched up well against former Nebraska tackle Ndamukong Suh, the second overall pick of the draft.

LASTING IMAGE

Tebow is like a rock star at practice, with fans constantly chanting, "Tee-bow! Tee-bow! Tee-bow!" They clamor for him to just give a glimpse in their direction and beg for him to pose for a picture or sign an autograph.


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"I'm kind of blown away," Bannan said. "I've just never seen anything like it. It's like a phenomenon. This city's just become obsessed with Tebow. The guy has earned that right to get that kind of attention, because he's probably going to go down as one of the greatest -- if not the greatest -- college player to play the game."

Fans camped out the night before the first public practice at training camp Sunday to be sure they'd be the first in line for a spot on one of the small hills that surround the field. Though the local fire marshal capped attendance at 3,000; there were 3,100 in attendance on Sunday, a Broncos record for the first day of camp at their practice facility.

The last time the Broncos had anything like this, a guy named John Elway was their quarterback. Most of it is due to the fact that Tebow might very well be the greatest player in college football history and had a strong national profile in place way before his arrival. There are some long-time followers of the Broncos who are desperate to latch onto the first franchise player they've had in a long time.

"I've been on a team with some (high-profile) players, such as Deion (Sanders) and guys like that, but I've never seen nothing like this," Bailey said. "It's amazing."

Equally impressive is how Tebow has remained grounded, something that hasn't been lost on his teammates.

"I'm kind of proud of him for the way he handles himself," Bailey said. "He wants to be one of the guys. People are going to put him on that pedestal, but he handles both sides (fans and teammates) very well."

SAY WHAT?

"I'm always optimistic, but being real, we've got a lot of work to do. We know what it takes to be a championship football team, but... we don't see it in practice yet. We've got a long way to go. It's going to take a long training camp and (a) few games to really get where we want to go."

-- Champ Bailey.

EXTRA POINTS

» McDaniels on changes he has made to his approach in his second season as Broncos coach: "I'm an emotional person; I'm not going to change that part of it. But I want to channel that the best way that I can to help our team the very most that I can."

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» One thing that hasn't changed about McDaniels is that he runs a fairly grueling camp. He keeps the practice tempo high, with plenty of hitting and has players run gassers after workouts, which is less common than it used to be in the NFL. Said Bannan: "He's old school in a young (34-year-old) body. I mean, this camp's no joke. It's an old-school camp. It's hard. No shortcuts. You're going to be in pads every day, you're going to be banging, you're going to be running after practice. He's tough and I like that; I respect that."

» A rule that McDaniels instituted last year is that a player who makes a mistake in practice must run a lap around the field. Occasionally, after a series of blunders, he will make the entire offense or defense run a lap (and even an assistant coach). The first unit to do so this summer was the offense, after what Orton described as about four or five bad plays in a row "where we weren't doing anything."

» The defensive backs have their own way of dealing with errors. When one of them drops an interception, he does 10 pushups on the spot. Veteran safety Brian Dawkins was the first to do so in the first practice.

nfl.com (http://www.nfl.com/trainingcamp/story/09000d5d81986870/article/a-lost-fact-in-tebowmania-ortons-still-the-guy-in-denver?module=HP_cp2)