Paige: Broncos must improve offensive offense

[nevcraw]

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_15536792

woody paige
Paige: Broncos must improve offensive offense
By Woody Paige
The Denver Post
Posted: 07/17/2010 01:00:00 AM MDTUpdated: 07/17/2010 01:19:32 AM MDT

No offense, Josh McDaniels and the Broncos, but last season you had no offense.

And with training camp within sight — finally — the foremost, and four most, areas of concern are on offense.

Passing, receiving, running, blocking, and there's no other area of importance, anyway.

The bottom line is the top line: points scored.

In 2009, the Broncos tied for 20th in the NFL in points per game — 20.4.

Guess which team they tied with. The Bears — oddly, enough. Guess who was the quarterback for Chicago.

Averaging fewer than three touchdowns per game is totally unacceptable — especially when the Super Bowl champions averaged 31.9 points a game and the AFC West's No. 1 team, the Chargers, averaged more than four touchdowns a game.

The Broncos ranked 15th overall in first downs and were successful on only 36.3 percent of their third-down plays and 38.9 percent on fourth-down attempts, while 40-plus percent was the norm on third-down plays and 50-plus percent on fourth-down plays for 15 other teams in the league.

The Broncos' passing game ranked 13th and the running game 18th.

In essence, the Broncos produced an offense that virtually was in the middle of the 32 teams.

So there was a valid reason the Broncos ended up 8-8 — mediocrity on offense.

When the defense carried the team, the Broncos started 6-0. When the defense declined, the offense couldn't handle the load, and the Broncos lost six of their last eight.

I've examined every Broncos' offensive possession of last season — but, obviously, not as closely as the coaching staff.

The consequential breakdowns should be obvious to everyone. On third-and-short and fourth-and-1, in critical game situations, the Broncos couldn't get it done.

The two K's were major Kulprits.

Kyle Orton couldn't complete his dippy, dinky tosses, and Knowshon Moreno couldn't get the teeny, tiny yardage.

In the final game last year, the devastating defeat at home to the Chiefs, the Broncos did score three touchdowns (on a pass and two runs), but Orton threw three interceptions, and the Broncos were stopped short on a third-down run and five passes were incomplete. The Broncos punted six times against a terrible team.

In the opening game at Cincinnati, the Broncos had 11 possessions — punt (incomplete short pass on third down), punt (incomplete pass), punt (sack), punt (short complete pass), punt (incomplete pass), field goal (end of half), punt (short complete pass), punt (incomplete pass), field goal (after incomplete pass), punt (sack) and touchdown (on Immaculate Deflection).

In between, in Game 4, even in the victory over the Cowboys, the Broncos' offense punted six times, fumbled the ball away twice, lost possession on downs and had one field goal and a lone touchdown.

In the overtime triumph over the Patriots, the Broncos punted five times, fumbled once and scored two touchdowns, with three field goals.

In the seventh game, the first loss, in Baltimore, the Broncos were forced to punt eight times and managed just one touchdown.

In the eighth game, Nov. 9 at home on Monday night against Pittsburgh, the Broncos' 11 possessions ended thusly: field goal, punt, interception for touchdown, punt, punt, punt, punt, punt, interception, punt, interception.

The alarming trend got worse when the offense and the defense took equal turns breaking down.

There was enough blame, and cause, to go around.

McDaniels' play-calling was conservative. He didn't trust Orton to throw middle-to- deep passes and knew the quarterback couldn't scramble. Moreno was tentative and unsuited as a one-cut back (and the Broncos were trapped between zone- and power-blocking schemes); Correll Buckhalter was hurt; and Peyton Hillis was forgotten.

Orton depended on dump passes and Brandon Marshall's ability to run after the catch. As the season unraveled, Orton panicked and threw more interceptions when the defenses packed people closer to the line. The Broncos' offensive line suffered injuries; Casey Wiegmann and Ben Hamilton were no longer effective; and the Broncos' lack of bulk couldn't dominate defensive lines.

So, where are the Broncos in July?

They don't have Marshall, tight end Tony Scheffler, Hamilton, Wiegmann, Hillis and two Shanahan-holdover coaches. Offensive tackles Ryan Clady and Ryan Harris are recovering from injuries, and the zone-blocking techniques have been abandoned. Two wide receiver draft picks are recovering from injuries, and the team owns no true pass catching, defense-stretching tight end.

There are many true-false questions about Orton and Moreno and multiple-choice questions about the wide receivers and the offensive line. A Mensa candidate wouldn't have the answers.

And, no offense, Josh and the Broncos, but the foremost (or two most) intriguing characters of training camp will be backup quarterbacks.

Woody Paige: 303-954-1095 or wpaige@denverpost.com

[Northman]

Spot on article.

[NightTrainLayne]

Woody's got it right here. None of us will know until we've played a few games whether or not the offense will improve or not, but I feel like it can't hardly help but improve despite the loss of Marshall.

[The Glue Factory]

What a great job of saying what even the dumbest of us already knows. No offense to the poster as Woody obviously had absolutely nothing to write about and had a deadline charging like a bull elephant, but...

:coffee:

[Tempus Fugit]

That was one of the weakest articles any professional writer has ever written. How plowed was Paige when he wrote that crap? Hey, Woody.... FYI.... The Giants were only the #14 scoring offense in the NFL in 2007, and they were the 17th scoring defense, yet they managed to become Super Bowl Champions that year.

Good Lord, training camps can't get here fast enough.

[Bosco]

That was one of the weakest articles any professional writer has ever written. How plowed was Paige when he wrote that crap? Hey, Woody.... FYI.... The Giants were only the #14 scoring offense in the NFL in 2007, and they were the 17th scoring defense, yet they managed to become Super Bowl Champions that year.

Good Lord, training camps can't get here fast enough.

Tell me about it.

[spikerman]

Woody's got it right here. None of us will know until we've played a few games whether or not the offense will improve or not, but I feel like it can't hardly help but improve despite the loss of Marshall.

I hope you're right, but I have my doubts. I see a team with an injured/inexperienced offensive line and no offensive players who scare anybody. I'm worried that it can be even worse.

[topscribe]

That was one of the weakest articles any professional writer has ever written. How plowed was Paige when he wrote that crap? Hey, Woody.... FYI.... The Giants were only the #14 scoring offense in the NFL in 2007, and they were the 17th scoring defense, yet they managed to become Super Bowl Champions that year.

Good Lord, training camps can't get here fast enough.

Thank you. All I have to say about this post is QFT.

-----

[NittanyBuff24]

Woody's got it right here. None of us will know until we've played a few games whether or not the offense will improve or not, but I feel like it can't hardly help but improve despite the loss of Marshall.

Dont really see that one, have a bad feeling BM made KO look a hell of a lot better than he actually is!

[TXBRONC]

I hope you're right, but I have my doubts. I see a team with an injured/inexperienced offensive line and no offensive players who scare anybody. I'm worried that it can be even worse.

I'm not as worried about the offensive line right now. Once Clady is back if Denver can keep him, Kuper, and Harris healthy that would make a world of difference. The receiving corps is different. If Thomas is being counted on to make a substantial contribution I don't know. He didn't play in pro style offense so the learning curve could be problematic.

[Jagsbch]

but last season you had no offense? Didn't the Broncos out score their opponent when it was all said and done?

Didn't their QB who was ranked 14th in the league throw for nearly 4000 yards?

Being a former Jaguars fan, I can tell you what no offense looks like, what this offense managed to accomplish while in transition to a new scheme after lososing the best tackle tandem in the league is not bad.

With a year under this teams belt with the scheme, and with players healthy again, Broncos ought to be able to emerge on the same page with McDaniels complex scheme, and won't be as limp this season as woody was when he wrote this artcle.

[Shazam!]

The Broncos offense needs to be improved? I did not know this.

[jhildebrand]

Good Lord, training camps can't get here fast enough.

Amen

[honz]

Did Woody come up with that title on his own?

[nevcraw]

That was one of the weakest articles any professional writer has ever written. How plowed was Paige when he wrote that crap? Hey, Woody.... FYI.... The Giants were only the #14 scoring offense in the NFL in 2007, and they were the 17th scoring defense, yet they managed to become Super Bowl Champions that year.
Good Lord, training camps can't get here fast enough.

So? Giants made the playoffs...
and had a mobile enough QB with a quality arm
and very good and cohesive O line
and the deepest DL in football
and an experienced D coordinator

[Lonestar]

but last season you had no offense? Didn't the Broncos out score their opponent when it was all said and done?

Didn't their QB who was ranked 14th in the league throw for nearly 4000 yards?

Being a former Jaguars fan, I can tell you what no offense looks like, what this offense managed to accomplish while in transition to a new scheme after lososing the best tackle tandem in the league is not bad.

With a year under this teams belt with the scheme, and with players healthy again, Broncos ought to be able to emerge on the same page with McDaniels complex scheme, and won't be as limp this season as woody was when he wrote this artcle.

FWIW we did not lose Clady until offseason, when he was playing Basketball.


But losing Harris was epic in conjunction with hamilton and Casey screwing the pooch.

[JaxBroncoGirl]

Regardless of who is playing the QB position, we must protect him so we can move the chains. So many QB really get the bad end of the stick when the offense collapses during games. I hope we can pick it up a notch or two to keep the offense on the field and complete 3rd down conversions and improve our stats in the red zone.

It is imperative that our team steps up to the plate this year and know the play book. Orton, Tebow and Quinn will need a strong line to get the plays off and moving the chains. So many fans (including myself) will under rate a QB but if you go back and look at the tapes most of the time the QB is running for his life or on his back. I have seen this so many times with David Garrard, if he is not on his back, he is rushed into making bad decisions. Go Broncos!!!!!:salute:

[Tempus Fugit]

So? Giants made the playoffs...
and had a mobile enough QB with a quality arm
and very good and cohesive O line
and the deepest DL in football
and an experienced D coordinator

I wasn't bagging on the Giants.

[Stargazer]

You trade away a guy who catches a 100+ balls is somehow going to make this team better this upcoming season.

This team is going to struggle on offense this season.

[Lonestar]

You trade away a guy who catches a 100+ balls is somehow going to make this team better this upcoming season.

This team is going to struggle on offense this season.

Just because someone gets a hunderd catches does not mean they could not have been more productive.

While I do not recall how many times he was targeted to get those hundred. In 08 it took 179 at about 60% IIRC.

While other players had better. %s than him were open and waiting to get thrown to.

Since I'm not in the film room. I'm going. To let the coaches make those calls.

It would appear that DT is a BM clone with a eagle scout mentality and is faster to boot.

And Decker just falt does not let a ball get by him. I saw numbers that he did not catch only 13 balls out of some almost 400 thrown to him while in college.

If these two get going at half speed this year your going to be saying BM who?
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[TXBRONC]

Pointing to the percentage of how many times a receiver was targeted as a way criticize them is only for the purpose of grinding an ax.

That stat tells you nothing more than number of times the ball was thrown their direction.

It doesn't tell you:

1.) The number of drops.

2.) The number of times the pass was off target whether by overthows, underthows, passes wide of the target, or even behind the target.

3.) It doesn't tell you how many time the pass was defended whether by deflection or interception.

Those things are common sense. :coffee:

[topscribe]

Just because someone gets a hunderd catches does not mean they could not have been more productive.

While I do not recall how many times he was targeted to get those hundred. In 08 it took 179 at about 60% IIRC.

While other players had better. %s than him were open and waiting to get thrown to.

Since I'm not in the film room. I'm going. To let the coaches make those calls.

It would appear that DT is a BM clone with a eagle scout mentality and is faster to boot.

And Decker just falt does not let a ball get by him. I saw numbers that he did not catch only 13 balls out of some almost 400 thrown to him while in college.

If these two get going at half speed this year your going to be saying BM who?
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Moreover, when they benched that 100-catch guy in the final game, one
Jabar Gaffney stepped up and gathered 14 receptions for himself, not to
mention 7 in the previous (Philly) game and 6 against NE.

Oh, and remember the first game of 2008? BMarsh wasn't there. Fast Eddie
was - to the tune of 9 receptions.

Not only do the Broncos have the promise of the rooks, but they have some
already on staff who seem pretty good in their own right . . .

-----

[broncofaninfla]

I remember watching the games last year and being flat out embarrased at times with how bad the offense was. I also remember thinking just how bad the would be without Marshall. In the last game of the year we got a preview of how effective our offense is without Marshall. KC spanked "Mcd's guys", the result accross the board was nothing short of pathetic. Now we have a whole season to watch Mcd's players, running Mcd's scheme's. It's hard to put any faith in Thomas being he probably will be late getting to camp. Other than the two starting tackles I just don't see a lot of talent left on this team. Add that to Mcd's play calling and I can't help but think Denver is on the verge of a very embarrasing season. On the plus side a lot of the guys are in their second year in this system so hopefully that translates into an improved offensive showing from the players and coaches in 2010.

[Lonestar]

Moreover, when they benched that 100-catch guy in the final game, one
Jabar Gaffney stepped up and gathered 14 receptions for himself, not to
mention 7 in the previous (Philly) game and 6 against NE.

Oh, and remember the first game of 2008? BMarsh wasn't there. Fast Eddie
was - to the tune of 9 receptions.

Not only do the Broncos have the promise of the rooks, but they have some
already on staff that seem pretty good in their own right . . .

-----

Some just do not get that having all your eggs in one basket is not the only way to win.

I liked his play on the field but was worried that he was one bitch slap away from missing half the season.

If we get the same porduction or more for that matter from 2 or 3 other players what the hell is the problem.
Players come and go time for fans to move on.
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[claymore]

Decker, Thomas and Gaffney have a looooooooooooooong way to go to get to Marshall's level.

[Bosco]

In the last game of the year we got a preview of how effective our offense is without Marshall. KC spanked "Mcd's guys", the result accross the board was nothing short of pathetic. Our offense didn't surrender 250+ yards to Charles and as Topscribe already mentioned, the guy we replaced Marshall with had an absolutely exceptional game.


Add that to Mcd's play calling and I can't help but think Denver is on the verge of a very embarrasing season. The guy widely regarded as one of the best playcallers in the NFL doesn't give you any faith?

Well don't worry. McD made a top 10 offense out of the talent depleted 2006 Patriots.

[Bosco]

Decker, Thomas and Gaffney have a looooooooooooooong way to go to get to Marshall's level.

Thomas has an entirely different skillset and will play a very different role in this offense. He should not be compared to Marshall.

And I've said this repeatedly on here, but we don't need 100+ catches from the Y receiver. We need about 35-50 and Gaffney alone can produce that.

[Jagsbch]

FWIW we did not lose Clady until offseason, when he was playing Basketball.


But losing Harris was epic in conjunction with hamilton and Casey screwing the pooch.

When just one player falls, it is no longer the best tandem or even a tandem for that matter.

[Jagsbch]

I remember watching the games last year and being flat out embarrased at times with how bad the offense was.

I am a cabinet maker/ renovation man carpenter by trade. I can tell you that when you are building something, the process can appear embarrasing to even appearing bad at times, I don't know how many times I have told homeowners in shock how this is just a phase in the building process you need not be alarmed, this is normal. :salute:

[claymore]

Thomas has an entirely different skillset and will play a very different role in this offense. He should not be compared to Marshall.

And I've said this repeatedly on here, but we don't need 100+ catches from the Y receiver. We need about 35-50 and Gaffney alone can produce that.

This is just blind hope. The fact is that none of our recievers are as good as Marshall is.

[claymore]

Our offense didn't surrender 250+ yards to Charles and as Topscribe already mentioned, the guy we replaced Marshall with had an absolutely exceptional game.

The guy widely regarded as one of the best playcallers in the NFL doesn't give you any faith?

Well don't worry. McD made a top 10 offense out of the talent depleted 2006 Patriots.
Who regards McD as one of the best? Name one guy.

2006 the Pats offense was ranked 11th. Down from #7 from the year before.

Magically it went to #1 with the arrival of Moss and Welker in 07.

[broncofaninfla]

Our offense didn't surrender 250+ yards to Charles and as Topscribe already mentioned, the guy we replaced Marshall with had an absolutely exceptional game.

The guy widely regarded as one of the best playcallers in the NFL doesn't give you any faith?

Well don't worry. McD made a top 10 offense out of the talent depleted 2006 Patriots.

What color is the sky in your world?

We lost the game, and were embarrased by a bottom dweller. Since you are such a huge NE fan, why don't you research and post the drops Gaffney had his last season in NE and how many of those drops were in the end zone?

Widley regarded? Where? In New England? If you can't site an example of Mcd as a BRONCO then anything you say about him is irrelevent.

Again, another Patriots reference.

[claymore]

What color is the sky in your world?

We lost the game, and were embarrased by a bottom dweller. Since you are such a huge NE fan, why don't you research and post the drops Gaffney had his last season in NE and how many of those drops were in the end zone?

Widley regarded? Where? In New England? If you can't site an example of Mcd as a BRONCO then anything you say about him is irrelevent.

Again, another Patriots reference.

I dont even think they know who McD is in NE. :D

[topscribe]

I dont even think they know who McD is in NE. :D

Oh yeah, they know. They discovered him on 11 October 2009. :lol:

-----

[Bosco]

Who regards McD as one of the best? Name one guy. Well we can start with just about every team that had a head coaching vacancy seeking to interview him.


2006 the Pats offense was ranked 11th. Down from #7 from the year before. 2005 - 10th
2006 - 7th
2007 - 1st
2008 - 8th


Magically it went to #1 with the arrival of Moss and Welker in 07. And what did Welker do before coming to New England? Or how about Moss, who went from supposedly washed up to record setting receiver the second he joined the Pats.


What color is the sky in your world?

We lost the game, and were embarrased by a bottom dweller. What's that got to do with Gaffney easily replacing Marshall?


Since you are such a huge NE fan, why don't you research and post the drops Gaffney had his last season in NE and how many of those drops were in the end zone? Yep, he had some drops in 2008, a relatively isolated incident over his career.


Widley regarded? Where? In New England? Oh Christ.


If you can't site an example of Mcd as a BRONCO then anything you say about him is irrelevent. This is the same lunacy you posted on another thread. It's like you think that since McD changed job addresses that all his knowledge resets back to zero or something.

I know this might be hard for you people to understand, but he didn't just forget how to call an offense when he came here to Denver. All those skills that made him a highly sought after commodity are still there.

[TXBRONC]

Well we can start with just about every team that had a head coaching vacancy seeking to interview him.

Since you know all things McDaniel please prove that he was the hotest commodity on the market. He garnered quite a bit of interest but you are confusing him with Spagunolo.


2005 - 10th
2006 - 7th
2007 - 1st
2008 - 8th

He wasn't the offensive coordinator in 2005 it was speculated that he called played but that hasn't proven. Unless Belichick comes out says that he did there is no prove it.



And what did Welker do before coming to New England? Or how about Moss, who went from supposedly washed up to record setting receiver the second he joined the Pats.

Yep put Welker in a system with one of the top two quarterbacks in the League and one of the best deep threats in the game to stretch the field can do wonders for a player don't ya think? Moss was considered washed up? Moss wasn't considered washed but pundits wondered if he would play hard.


What's that got to do with Gaffney easily replacing Marshall?

This is a joke right? I know you a few others use one very good game as far as yardage and receptions and go and all of the suddedn he'll be able to do that for a full season. We'll see. A guy that has never put up more than 55 receptions in a single season is going easily replace Marshall? And on only once in his previous eight seasons as pro has he EVER had more than two touchdowns.

[Bosco]

Since you know all things McDaniel please prove that he was the hotest commodity on the market. He garnered quite a bit of interest but you are confusing him with Spagunolo. You proved it already by admitting he was getting alot of interest, and that's not even counting the teams lining up to interview him before he said "no thanks" in 2007.


He wasn't the offensive coordinator in 2005 it was speculated that he called played but that hasn't proven. Unless Belichick comes out says that he did there is no prove it. There is no "speculation" that he called the plays. He did call the plays.


When Charlie Weis left the Patriots for Notre Dame after that season, McDaniels was given control of play-calling, although Belichick did not name him offensive coordinator and kept the identity of the play-caller a mystery, perhaps to shield McDaniels, whose youthful countenance belies his deep coaching experience.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/30/sports/football/30patriots.html?_r=1


And in 2005, Belichick quietly elevated McDaniels to offensive coordinator after the departure of Charlie Weis. There was speculation that Belichick didn't make the promotion public that year because he wanted to shield his young playcaller, who was just 29.

McDaniels' unofficial debut as offensive coordinator came in a nationally televised Thursday night game against the Oakland Raiders, and the Patriots scored 30 points. He says he never really felt the nerves that night and called the experience "exhilarating."

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=4104795


Yep put Welker in a system with one of the top two quarterbacks in the League and one of the best deep threats in the game to stretch the field can do wonders for a player don't ya think? A Josh McDaniels designed system that resulted in career/record setting years for all three players.

Yep, no credit to McDaniels here.


Moss was considered washed up? Moss wasn't considered washed but pundits wondered if he would play hard. That's why a guy who had previously been considered the best receiver in the game only fetched a 4th round pick in a last minute draft day deal.


This is a joke right? I know you a few others use one very good game as far as yardage and receptions and go and all of the suddedn he'll be able to do that for a full season. We'll see. A guy that has never put up more than 55 receptions in a single season is going easily replace Marshall? Like I said, we only need about 30-50 catches from the Y receiver. Gaffney can do that with ease.

[claymore]

2005 - 10th
2006 - 7th
2007 - 1st
2008 - 8th

Those rankings are not total offense. They are total points, or PPG.

Dont leave out 2004 & 2009.
2004 - 4th Weis
2005 - 10th
2006 - 7th
2007 - 1st
2008 - 8th
2009 - 6th McD gone

I wonder why McD had such a great year in 2007. I wonder why NE had such a great year in 09 without Air McDaniels offense playcalling and tutelage?




A Josh McDaniels designed system that resulted in career/record setting years for all three players.

McD lucked into an ideal system that could make anyone look good. Great team, GREAT QB, GREAT WR's good defense, GREAT HC etc...

That Patriot offense hasnt skipped a beat without McD. I bet you dollars to donuts the Pats offense is in the top 5 again this year without McD.

[TXBRONC]

A Josh McDaniels designed system that resulted in career/record setting years for all three players.

I know it's hard for you to accept but the fact is he didn't implement spread offense in New England Charlie Weis did. While you going on about how McDaniels implemented a entirely new offense (:lol:) yet someone like you can NEVER address why McDaniels wanted Quinn so badly. I guess it couldn't be that Quinn played for Charlie Weis in college and then went to a team that ran a similar system. :coffee:


That's why a guy who had previously been considered the best receiver in the game only fetched a 4th round pick in a last minute draft day deal.

Where have you been? The Raiders got rid of
Moss because he's a notorious pain in the ass. You didn't know that about Moss? Shocking for a guy who claims to be so well informed. :lol:

Like I said, we only need about 30-50 catches from the Y receiver. Gaffney can do that with ease.

Twice in nine years. :lol:

Marshall had over 100 and 10 tds. Gaffney has never put more than five and he's done that all of one time. :rolleyes:

[Northman]

Where have you been? The Raiders got rid of because he's a notorious pain in the ass. You didn't know that about Moss? Shocking for guy who claims to be so well informed. :lol:




I too am baffled but it explains a LOT now. :lol:

[TXBRONC]

I too am baffled but it explains a LOT now. :lol:

Yeah it does.

[claymore]

I bet Cullpepper wishes Moss was playing with him and the Sacramento Mountain Lions. :(

[broncofaninfla]

Mcd as a head coach has yet to coordinate and coach an effective and threatening offense. He had success as a OC BUT he also had Bellichick, Moss. Welker and Brady carrying him. The closest thing we had to Bellichick was Nolan and he is now gone. The closest thing we had to Moss was Marshall and he too is now gone. Orton couldn't find Royal but I still give him a shot to be an effective "Welker" and we don't have anything close to Brady but QB's like him don't come around every day. When they do, they make thier OC's look better than they actually are.

[Tempus Fugit]

I know it's hard for you to accept but the fact is he didn't implement spread offense in New England Charlie Weis did. While you going on about how McDaniels implemented a entirely new offense (:lol:) yet someone like you can NEVER address why McDaniels wanted Quinn so badly. I guess it couldn't be that Quinn played for Charlie Weis in college and then went to a team that ran a similar system. :coffee:

What happened with the system was that Belichick got very interested in Urban Myer's spread concepts. He and McDaniels integrated a lot of that into the Patriots' system. They also tried converting over to a zone blocking scheme, although that's now been all but abandoned. On top of all of that, they brought in Welker and Moss, and that resulted in a major shakeup in the offensive system.

The team went from focusing on the short passing game, using WR screens as a major part of the 'running' game, to using a downfield/upfield system with deep reads being included on almost every play. The results are a system that has some similarities to the old system, and requires similar things out of its QB, but also has major differences, particularly with regards to the deep ball and to shared reads by the QB and receivers.


Where have you been? The Raiders got rid of
Moss because he's a notorious pain in the ass. You didn't know that about Moss? Shocking for a guy who claims to be so well informed. :lol:

Well, this wasn't an either/or situation. Moss was moved because his production was down and he was thought to be in decline, and because he had skipped the offseason workouts and was thought to be contemplating skipping the start of camp.


Many in the league were beginning to believe he was washed up. His best years were behind him.

http://www.20yardline.com/new-england-patriots-articles/current/randy-moss.html


Of course there are valid counter-arguments to be made; is Randy washed up? (He finished Sunday’s conference call with the press by saying; “The Moss of old is back. We’ll leave it at that.”) Will he quit on the team in the middle of a game? (He’s done before - I even saw it firsthand; Vikes & Pats, 2002.) Will he poison the team chemistry? Rest assured, the local media is all over this angle. (Lovely work, CHB. Did you write that, or did you copy & paste Borges article on Dillon from 3 years ago?)

http://www.capecodtoday.com/blogs/index.php/2007/04/30/patriots_get_randy_moss_for_free?blog=126

Also, Moss' 3 seasons prior to the trade had him with

767
1005
553

Yards, which lent credence to the claims of those saying he was washed up.


Like I said, we only need about 30-50 catches from the Y receiver. Gaffney can do that with ease.

Twice in nine years. :lol:

I have no idea where you're getting the "twice" from here. Gaffney's had at least 30 catches in every NFL season except 2006, when he was a late addition to New England and had to earn his way into the rotation. After having only 11 catches during the season, he had 21 in the postseason.


Marshall had over 100 and 10 tds. Gaffney has never put more than five. :rolleyes:

I'm not sure why you keep making these types of arguments. They are all but irrelevant. Gaffney's job will not be to replicate Marshall.

[Tempus Fugit]

Mcd as a head coach has yet to coordinate and coach an effective and threatening offense. He had success as a OC BUT he also had Bellichick, Moss. Welker and Brady carrying him. The closest thing we had to Bellichick was Nolan and he is now gone. The closest thing we had to Moss was Marshall and he too is now gone. Orton couldn't find Royal but I still give him a shot to be an effective "Welker" and we don't have anything close to Brady but QB's like him don't come around every day. When they do, they make thier OC's look better than they actually are.

In McDaniels' 25 seasons as an NFL head coach, he's never had a top offense.

[broncofaninfla]

In McDaniels' 25 seasons as an NFL head coach, he's never had a top offense.

Huh?

[Ravage!!!]

Huh?

He doesn't have much humor, and makes bad attempts at sarcasm. However, what he is trying to say ( in his very droll and very sneering way) is that since McD hasn't been a HC more than a single season, the comment about never having a top offense as a "HC" isn't a large sample.

[broncofaninfla]

He doesn't have much humor, and makes bad attempts at sarcasm. However, what he is trying to say ( in his very droll and very sneering way) is that since McD hasn't been a HC more than a single season, the comment about never having a top offense as a "HC" isn't a large sample.

LOL!! I've got it now!

[TXBRONC]

What happened with the system was that Belichick got very interested in Urban Myer's spread concepts. He and McDaniels integrated a lot of that into the Patriots' system. They also tried converting over to a zone blocking scheme, although that's now been all but abandoned. On top of all of that, they brought in Welker and Moss, and that resulted in a major shakeup in the offensive system.

You just said it yourself they integrated some new wrinkles they didn't change the scheme. Coach do that all time they'll take what they already have and add to it. That's what happened.


The team went from focusing on the short passing game, using WR screens as a major part of the 'running' game, to using a downfield/upfield system with deep reads being included on almost every play. The results are a system that has some similarities to the old system, and requires similar things out of its QB, but also has major differences, particularly with regards to the deep ball and to shared reads by the QB and receivers.

No they didn't. WR screens are still staple of their offense and top how do you and throw it short is major part of what they do. If that's what you think look what Welker has done over the past three season. He's had three straight season leading the team in receptions with ypcs of 10.5. 10.5, 11.0.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/stats?playerId=5941


Well, this wasn't an either/or situation. Moss was moved because his production was down and he was thought to be in decline, and because he had skipped the offseason workouts and was thought to be contemplating skipping the start of camp.



http://www.20yardline.com/new-england-patriots-articles/current/randy-moss.html



http://www.capecodtoday.com/blogs/index.php/2007/04/30/patriots_get_randy_moss_for_free?blog=126

Also, Moss' 3 seasons prior to the trade had him with

767
1005
553

Yards, which lent credence to the claims of those saying he was washed up.

Well no. Davis did want to deal with him any more. They knew he still had ability but knew wasn't playing hard and with his well known reputation for taking plays off the decided to get rid of him.



I have no idea where you're getting the "twice" from here. Gaffney's had at least 30 catches in every NFL season except 2006, when he was a late addition to New England and had to earn his way into the rotation. After having only 11 catches during the season, he had 21 in the postseason.

I'm sorry you have a dysfuntion following the conversation. Bosco said that what he will get. Gaffney hasn't shown himself to be a receiver that will get 50 or more pass consistently. It's rather simple. And BFD he had 21 receptions in 2006 playoffs. He gathered a 18 in two wins and disappeared in the AFCCG.


I'm not sure why you keep making these types of arguments. They are all but irrelevant. Gaffney's job will not be to replicate Marshall.

Well yeah he is inpart because he's going be starting. The guy for his career hasn't been one to generate points. So my argument isn't just becasue you say it is.

[Bosco]

I know it's hard for you to accept but the fact is he didn't implement spread offense in New England Charlie Weis did.

And when I demanded any kind of proof or reasoning from you on the other thread, you went silent. I even posted an article talking about McDaniels going down to Florida to study Urban Meyer's offense with the specific intention of moving from Weis' grind it out offense.


While you going on about how McDaniels implemented a entirely new offense (:lol:) yet someone like you can NEVER address why McDaniels wanted Quinn so badly. I guess it couldn't be that Quinn played for Charlie Weis in college and then went to a team that ran a similar system. :coffee:
Actually I'm pretty sure I have addressed this here.

I'm just curious why you keep jumping from "the offenses were similiar" (which is basically correct) and "they were the same" (which is not even remotely correct). The lack of consistency in your statements is mind boggling.


Where have you been? The Raiders got rid of
Moss because he's a notorious pain in the ass. You didn't know that about Moss? Shocking for a guy who claims to be so well informed. :lol: Moss has been a pain in the ass for basically his entire career and Oakland knew that when they traded for him. He then proceeded to be a pain in the ass who wasn't performing like an elite receiver so they dumped him for a 4th rounder.


Twice in nine years. :lol: Really? Gaffney has caught 30+ passes in 7 of his 8 years in the league. The only year he didn't (2006) is when he only played in 6 games.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/G/GaffJa00.htm

[Bosco]

You just said it yourself they integrated some new wrinkles they didn't change the scheme. Coach do that all time they'll take what they already have and add to it. That's what happened. He also added in many elements from West Coast style offenses, especially the increased use of the fullback. The result is an offensive system that is vastly different from what Weis had used.

If you ever decide to stop sidestepping the challenge and offer up some real X's and O's examples, I'll be happy to get a whole helluva lot more specific.

[KyleOrtonArmySoldier#128]

Demaryius Thomas....

[spikerman]

I think Wes Welker is the key to the Patriots' offense. One thing (among many) that I could not understand last year is why McDaniels didn't use Stokley more. Stokley has been performing that role since before Welker was even in the league. He may have lost a step, but he would be a perfect stand in for Welker, IMO. If McDaniels wants to replicate the Patriots' offense he has the perfect WR to fill that role and he neglects to use him effectively.

[Tempus Fugit]

No they didn't. WR screens are still staple of their offense and top how do you and throw it short is major part of what they do. If that's what you think look what Welker has done over the past three season. He's had three straight season leading the team in receptions with ypcs of 10.5. 10.5, 11.0.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/stats?playerId=5941

I live in New England. I see every pretty much every Patriots game. I'm inundated with Patriots news via tv, radio and print. I know of what I speak on this topic. The offense changed, and the WR screen is not in use the way it was in the past. Now, the team brings in Maroney/Taylor/Morris and uses the run for the run. They bring in Faulk and use him either as a pass blocker or slipping out of the backfield. It's just one of the ways the team has changed its system. Your position is too broad, since you almost never have a 100% changeover of passing plays, which means that your argument meaningless. Whether or not you claim it's still the same scheme despite all the modifications, the team has clearly made enormous changes in how the offense goes about its business since the departure of Weis.

As for Welker leading the team, how is that relevant to what I said? I noted a change in approach, but that doesn't mean that great players won't get the ball. You also ignore Moss in that equation, with reception totals of 98, 69 and 83 since his arrival. Good luck finding a Patriots deep threat that came anywhere near those numbers prior to Moss' arrival and the changes made by McDaniels. Givens in 2004 and 2005 would be the closest you can get (56 & 59 catches).


Well no. Davis did want to deal with him any more. They knew he still had ability but knew wasn't playing hard and with his well known reputation for taking plays off the decided to get rid of him.

Al doesn't seem to agree with you, and reinforces the "washed up" issue as well:


-Q: Why did you trade Moss if you knew he was good?

-DAVIS: They didn’t want him.

-Q: They?

-DAVIS: Not the coaches. They were coming in brand new. That was a big thing on their minds.


Plus, you know how many teams turned him down. That guy in Green Bay thought he couldn’t run any more. Even Denver, where they’ll take anybody, turned him down.

But what’s his name knew he could run, he’s a friend of Belichick’s. Mike Lombardi. Mike sold what’s his name, Belichick, on the idea that he could run. They tampered with him. I remember Bob Kraft saying that he had to look him in the eye and all that. They went down and worked him out, he could run. He’s their team, of course, with the quarterback.

http://blogs.mercurynews.com/kawakami/2008/09/30/al-davis-after-the-cameras-were-off-kiffin-conned-me-like-you-conned-all-you-people/

1.) Not Davis wanting him gone

2.) Perceived as washed up

3.) Camp issue



I'm sorry you have a dysfuntion following the conversation. Bosco said that what he will get. Gaffney hasn't shown himself to be a receiver that will get 50 or more pass consistently. It's rather simple. And BFD he had 21 receptions in 2006 playoffs. He gathered a 18 in two wins and disappeared in the AFCCG.

I have no dysfunction. Bosco's words:


Like I said, we only need about 30-50 catches from the Y receiver. Gaffney can do that with ease.

Therefore, when I note that Gaffney has reached 30+ every year but one, I'm fitting that into Bosco's parameters. Any dysfunction is yours.


Well yeah he is inpart because he's going be starting. The guy for his career hasn't been one to generate points. So my argument isn't just becasue you say it is.

You're trying to argue a one-to-one equation when there isn't one. You tacitly admit that when you toss in "in part", so that's at least a step in the right direction.

[broncofaninfla]

I think Wes Welker is the key to the Patriots' offense. One thing (among many) that I could not understand last year is why McDaniels didn't use Stokley more. Stokley has been performing that role since before Welker was even in the league. He may have lost a step, but he would be a perfect stand in for Welker, IMO. If McDaniels wants to replicate the Patriots' offense he has the perfect WR to fill that role and he neglects to use him effectively.


Stokley vs Royal is going to be an intresting battle.

[spikerman]

Stokley vs Royal is going to be an intresting battle.

It seems to me that there is room for both of them, but if it comes down to only keeping one of them I don't like Stokley's chances.

[broncofaninfla]

It seems to me that there is room for both of them, but if it comes down to only keeping one of them I don't like Stokley's chances.

I'm thinking both will both as well but the battle for the starting spot should be entertaining to watch.

[TXBRONC]

I'm thinking both will both as well but the battle for the starting spot should be entertaining to watch.

I think either McKinely or Stokley is going to be let go by the end of camp.

[KyleOrtonArmySoldier#128]

I think either McKinely or Stokley is going to be let go by the end of camp.

Or both...but I'm really rooting for mckinley, stokes is the man but he's definitely getting up there in age.

[TXBRONC]

Or both...but I'm really rooting for mckinley, stokes is the man but he's definitely getting up there in age.


Agreed. It could be both. We kept six wide receivers last year so I figure that we'll probably have that many this season as well and with us going into camp with 10 (if I've counted correctly) four will need to be trimmed from the roster so there is very real possibility that one or both of them could be cut.

[KyleOrtonArmySoldier#128]

Agreed. It could be both. We kept six wide receivers last year so I figure that we'll probably have that many this season as well and with us going into camp with 10 (if I've counted correctly) four will need to be trimmed from the roster so there is very real possibility that one or both of them could be cut.

Yeah and who knows if one or more of the undrafted free agents have showed the coaches something. Only time will tell.