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T.K.O.
07-13-2010, 08:16 PM
i know some will say this is all fluff N' stuff....but i think it is a pretty well thought out and a pretty in depth look.....
:salute:




Why The 2010 Broncos Will Be Better Than The 2009 Broncos
By Alex Sergejev (Correspondent) on July 01, 2010
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/413919-why-the-2010-broncos-will-be-better-than-the-2009-broncos

Much of the media has seemingly determined that the Denver Broncos will do worse in 2010 than 2009.

The primary reason for this seems to be that most "experts" believe that the Brandon Marshall trade will result in a substantial drop in offensive production.

Additionally, the loss of Mike Nolan as a coach makes many feel their defense will be less effective.

Finally, it seems people believe that by drafting Tim Tebow, they somehow shot themselves in the foot.

However, a closer look at what is happening in Dove Valley shows that the Broncos have most likely improved a little since last season. They will almost certainly win nine or 10 games.

To demonstrate this, let's look at each of the major parts of the team, how they have changed since last season, and what that likely means for the season.

Offensive Line

Injuries have depleted their O-line. While that is never good, it is only May. Their guys will be 100 percent by September.

Every Broncos fan spent at least one day this offseason hating basketball.

Ryan Clady, their standout left tackle—the most reliable guy on their whole team along with Champ Bailey and Brian Dawkins—is down.

He might be back by Week 1, but even so, he will likely be rusty for the first several games.

Ryan Harris, their standout right tackle, has yet to fully recover from toe surgery to repair injuries sustained during the 2009 season. Russ Hochstein, possibly their starting center, is also currently hobbling.

They drafted three promising and physically imposing offensive linemen, who may be starting faster than initially expected if their veterans don't heal fast.

If their guys heal in time to be ready for Week 1, then their line should be among the best in the NFL with respectable depth.

If so, expect excellent pass protection and a healthy run game. If not, they get to see how good their rookies are in their first year.

If the unit is healthy, expect noticeable improvement this year.

Quarterback

Kyle Orton had a career year last year. He has returned and has had an entire extra offseason to process everything he learned in 2009.

Presumably, Broncos fans can rest assured that barring injury, our QB play will at a minimum, and be competent with some improvement over last year.
The QB position has improved in other ways as well.

Brady Quinn has replaced Simms as Orton's immediate backup (at least for now). Simms was so bad in back-up duty last year that when he had to come in for an injured Orton against the Redskins his play was bad enough to get him quickly benched in favor of the injured starter.

Many feel that Simms alone lost that game.

There is some controversy as to just how much better Quinn can be in Denver than he was in Cleveland—however, it is safe to say he is a substantial upgrade to Simms.
Finally, consider Tebow. Who knows what the more distant future holds, but this season the addition of Tebow will probably make possible some new gadget plays.

He will probably see some time on the field for short yardage scripted QB runs or wildcat type plays.

This position should be greatly improved this year.

Running

Last year, Buckhalter and Moreno were a very respectable duo.

Buckhalter, one of the more underrated backs in the league, can be expected to do exactly what he has done his entire career—quietly average about five yards per carry.

Moreno led all rookie rushers and was only half a field short of a 1,000 yard rushing season (note: he was over 1,000 total yards).
He should be much improved this year.

It has been reported that he has been working hard this offseason to add muscle and lower body strength. With the added strength and experience, expect him to break the 1,000 yard mark this year.

J.J. Arrington has been brought back. (Though whether it is for the season or just to be an extra body in the preseason is yet to be seen.) If he is kept, he will likely serve as a third and short yardage style bruiser.

Additionally, if Westbrook lands in Denver, he will be a nice addition to help bring Moreno up and to be a receiving threat out of the backfield.

Expect to see improvement this year in this unit.

Receiving

Much has been made of the loss of Tony Scheffler and Brandon Marshall.

Too much.

Scheffler is a very talented receiving tight end, and in Shanahan's offense he was a highly effective tool. But he was oft-injured, a problem in the locker room, and didn't fit their new power scheme (i.e. he couldn't block well).

Daniel Graham is a much better fit for their system as a starter, and Marquez Branson is a powerful guy with a lot of potential to shine in two tight end formations.

Marshall is unarguably among the top WRs in the NFL today. However, he was a distraction to the team and just wasn't a team-first, win-first guy.

Consider the black and white glove he was going to pull out a few years back after a TD reception—it was a touching gesture—but, at the time, it was a self-centered act that could have resulted in a costly penalty in a close, crucial game.

Even without Marshall, they are still left with a formidable WR corps.

Eddie Royal had a remarkable rookie year, yet for some reason had a terrible sophomore slump. Much of this is due to the fact that he was also the kick returner (where he played very well).

The head coach and the starting QB have stated that they felt they needed to figure out how to get Royal more involved. Expect to see someone else returning kicks and Royal to be catching a lot more balls.

Brandon Stokely remains one of the best slot receivers in the NFL and never fails to be among the most reliable guys on the field. A true heads-up, team-first player. Jabbar Gaffney also had a very respectable season (54 receptions for 732 yards).

Damarius Thomas looks like a true number one receiver who will probably have a respectable rookie season. He is struck from the same mold as BM. A huge guy with elite speed. He may end up being a top five receiver himself in a few seasons.

Eric Decker is probably going to have the most immediate impact of any rookie this season. He is another big guy. He is tough, has a huge receiving radius, and fights for the ball in the air.

One last note—in the final game of last season, in which BM and TS were both benched, the Broncos had their best passing game of the season as far as yards go.

All in all, their receiving corps looks to be about the same as last year. Some addition, one major subtraction.

Overall, it looks to be quite adequate.

Overall

McD should be well on his way to fully implementing his system. The Shanahan holdovers now have had time to absorb the new system and either buy in or get out.

Last year's acquisitions have had an extra year in the system. Those that are still here have proven themselves. Those that couldn't cut it have been traded or cut. This offseason's acquisitions by the Broncos should have a positive impact immediately.

Expect the offense to improve from 20th in points scored at 20.4 to game to about 15th or so.

An elite offense would be shocking, but a solid improvement should be expected.

Defensive Line

The Broncos added a lot of beef to the D-line this year.

In their 3-4 system, it is crucial that the front three be nasty enough to eat up a lot of blockers and clog the gaps at the line of scrimmage.

At 6'3", 348 lbs, Jamal Williams can do that.

Broncos fans know him as the dominating NT for the Chargers the last 10 or so years. While he is getting on in years and has battled injuries lately, he remains among the elite at his position when healthy.

Similarly, Justin Bannan and Jarvis Green add quality experience and depth. Notable returning players include promising young player Chris Baker, Ronald Fields (who had a respectable '09 season), and Ryan McBean.

If their FA acquisitions stay healthy and their younger returning players show the expected improvement that should come with an extra year in the system and in the NFL, then they can expect to see their D-line playing substantially better football this year.

Expect them to be pretty good.

Linebackers

Very little has changed as far as players in this group over the offseason. Marrio Haggan, Robert Ayers, D.J. Williams, and Elvis Dumervil will likely be the starting crew this season.

For the most part, last year's LB play was very good for the Broncos.

Dumervil led the league in sacks (the first time that has been done by a Bronco). Longtime veteran journeyman, Akin Ayodele, was added in the offseason.

Andra Davis was primarily brought in to stuff the run last year, but with the poor performance vs. the run down the stretch last year; Davis was cut.

Expect to see similar output this year against the pass and improved performance against the run. Dumervil should continue to be an elite pass rusher and Ayers should show huge improvement this year.

However, if the front three show as much improvement as there seems to be on paper, the LBs should look elite as a unit.

Corner Backs

This unit should be solid. Champ Bailey should continue to be among the best shutdown corners in the league.

Andre Goodman had a good year last year and should once again fill out one of the better CB tandems in the league. "Goody" had a respectable 44 tackles, one sack, and five interceptions to go along with his 17 passes defended.

Alphonso Smith had a somewhat quiet rookie year but, as he promised, he played like his hair was on fire and made a few spectacular game changing plays last season. He should continue to progress nicely.

Ty Law, who will most likely return in 2010, has had a brilliant career and ought to have enough left in the tank to be an effective player now that he has been with the team long enough to be familiar with his role.

The Broncos drafted two CB's this year. Their fifth round selection, Perish Cox, is thought to be among the top CB prospects in this year's draft.

The CB unit ought to be very solid yet again this year, anchored by one of the best in the league.

Safety

Brian Dawkins and Renaldo Hill were fantastic last year. Expect more of the same from these long-time, crafty veterans.

Promising young guys David Bruton and Darcel McBath ought to continue to progress nicely under the skillful tutelage of our vets.

Expect another solid year of out of their safeties.

Overall

The defense should see marked improvement this year. On paper at least, the D-line is much improved, which frees up their solid LB unit to wreak havoc.

Having such a strong front seven allows their secondary, which is one of the best in the league, to look even better.

If their team (particularly such important pieces as Jamal Williams) stays healthy, their defense will be a top 10 unit.

Special Teams

Matt Prater was among the best special teams players in the league last year. He was among the league leaders in touchbacks on kickoffs and he had a good year kicking field goals.

Last year their punter changed a little. However, Britton Colquitt is back and he shows a lot of promise.

In 2009, their special teams play was a strong point. This should remain true in 2010.

Coaches

In McD's first year, he changed half the players on the team and radically changed the system in all three phases.

In McD's second year as HC, he should be able to fine tune his system and his personnel to achieve improved results.

He has had one year to implement his system, review it, and tweak it based on results and player changes. Expect to see a more refined playbook this year, more schemes and play calling.

The most notable coaching change was the departure of Mike Nolan.

This was reported to be a mutually agreed upon split due to a difference in football philosophy. Don "Wink" Martindale is the new DC. It is not good to have five DCs in five years. Many credit Nolan alone for the defensive improvement from 2008 to 2009.

Time will tell if 'Wink" can cut it as a 3-4 DC but, if the players know anything, he should be good. The players are apparently universally confident that Martindale will be an excellent DC.

Side Note on Tebow Controversy

Many have stated that with the selection of Tebow, McD gambled his entire career.

What an exaggeration! Lets review the 25th overall picks of the past decade.

Chris Hovan (five years, decent), Freddie Mitchel (bust), Charles Grant (three good years, four bad ones), William Joseph (mediocre career, mostly a backup), Ahmad Carrol (basically a bust), Jason Campbell (Oakland's new QB, has had mediocre career so far, let's hope it stays that way), Santonio Holmes (great WR) , Jon Beason (Pro Bowl LB), Mike Jenkins (Pro Bowl CB), Vontae Davis (had great rookie season).

So over the past 10 years only about 40 percent of players taken at the 25th spot panned out.

Anything out of the top 10 really is not a must hit selection. Top 10 choices are huge investments.

First, they get the enormous contracts. A number one overall bust like JaMarcus Russell can devastate a franchise for years.

Second, with so many choices, a bad selection means you missed out on some other franchise type player that a smarter team will pick right after you.

At No. 25, there is not that much pressure really, especially considering the draft day trades that essentially resulted in the Broncos picking up Tebow for a fourth round pick.

The only pick they gave up to get Tebow that they had going into the first round was a fourth rounder. The other two picks they traded, they obtained that day by trading down from the 11th spot.

The media just has to make a big deal of the selection to save face because they were all wrong and Tebow is so high profile.

Conclusion

If you have managed to stick with me up to this point, then you hopefully see that virtually every position for the Broncos is improved this year, except for those that were all ready elite (such as safety).

Only WR is arguably worse than it was last year, but it is still among the better units in the league.

With the improvements in personnel, an extra year of fine tuning the system, and an easier schedule than they had last year, you can expect the Broncos to win nine or 10 games this year.

Northman
07-13-2010, 08:34 PM
In theory it may look more promising but until it actually happens i will still be skeptical. Its easy to say a team will do this or that but im more interested in them actually doing it. Bring on the new season.

T.K.O.
07-13-2010, 08:40 PM
In theory it may look more promising but until it actually happens i will still be skeptical. Its easy to say a team will do this or that but im more interested in them actually doing it. Bring on the new season.

unfortunately (until they add 4-6 more games to the season :D)this is all we have right now.....damnit!:laugh:

The Glue Factory
07-13-2010, 09:03 PM
The difference between theory and practice is always greater in practice than in theory. Meaning, what happens on the field will not be nearly as good as what we see on the stat sheets. Then there's the intangibles as evidenced in the first 6 games of last year.

Like many others, I'm on a wait and see basis for this year, but my gut says 8-8 give or take 1 (maybe, MAYBE 2)

OrangeHoof
07-13-2010, 09:24 PM
I expect a lower win total. It may not mean we are worse but I don't think they can sneak up on teams like they did in 2009.

MasterShake
07-13-2010, 10:21 PM
I expect a lower win total. It may not mean we are worse but I don't think they can sneak up on teams like they did in 2009.

Actually last year it felt like teams snuck up on us. We beat the good teams like New England and New York, then lost to teams like the Redskins, Chiefs, and Raiders. It was a crazy season last year.

T.K.O.
07-14-2010, 08:27 AM
Actually last year it felt like teams snuck up on us. We beat the good teams like New England and New York, then lost to teams like the Redskins, Chiefs, and Raiders. It was a crazy season last year.

you forgot the part where we kicked the bolts butt's in their house:beer:
that was a long tome comin'

MasterShake
07-14-2010, 09:32 AM
you forgot the part where we kicked the bolts butt's in their house:beer:
that was a long tome comin'

Thats was nice. Would have been nicer if it wasn't negated by them kicking out butts in our house...:tsk:

Northman
07-14-2010, 09:52 AM
Thats was nice. Would have been nicer if it wasn't negated by them kicking out butts in our house...:tsk:

Lmao, yea. That was short lived after they came back and destroyed us.

Traveler
07-14-2010, 10:01 AM
Thats was nice. Would have been nicer if it wasn't negated by them kicking out butts in our house...:tsk:

Of all the mediocre seasons the last 10 years, losing games at home has been one of my biggest gripes.

Teams used to hate coming here to play. Seems after the SB years, the team really didn't put much emphasis on "protecting their house".

Hopefully McDaniels and company stress the importance of winning at home. It's embarrassing losing home games to lesser division opponents.

Shazam!
07-14-2010, 10:04 AM
Nice article, but the guy is a homer.

underrated29
07-14-2010, 10:33 AM
That article is crap. And written like crap. I hate BR. HATE IT!

I could re write that whole thing, better in about 4 paragraphs instead of this five page sheet using the same words over and over again.



However, he does share a similar view to what I see.
I KNOW we have improved all over the place, and I know we will win at leas 10 games this year. (yes i'm psychic so get over it)


JD Walton will be our starting C- he wiffed that one big time. But he was correct that our OLine will more than likely return to greatness. If not it will still be a major improvement from last year. As a result the run game will also follow suit. Knowshon is going to strait up kill it this year, and if you play FF, you better make sure you get him.

I like what he says about Ortons familiarity in the system. I also thought this was a Major factor that is being overlooked to the 10th degree. There are lots of ex. of qbs who have done this, so i wont list them, but imo this is one of the areas that will see HUGE improvement. Kyle wont have to think. He can react- yeah we've heard that before- Because, after watching all our games on NFL replay- someone is always open. ALWAYS. But as i said in another thread, it has to be precise. Kyle was either late or missed the guys last year. THis year I am willing to bet that it is a new story.


I disagree that our WR are in the top half of the league like he said. NO effing way! I also dont like that he thinks our LB are elite. While good, no where close to elite...doom, dj- ok I can get behind that, Ayers-while I think he will be a stud, its way to soon to call him that, hagan- eh- would he start on any one elses team....?? Doubtful.



Poor write up, in every facet of a write up, content, info, wording. But at least he was not bashing the broncos and does believe we will be better. Which I agree.

jhildebrand
07-14-2010, 10:48 AM
One last note—in the final game of last season, in which BM and TS were both benched, the Broncos had their best passing game of the season as far as yards go.

Funny how that happens when a team is so far behind and has to pass to catch up. Gaffney was a different player in the second half then the first. I don't think he can beat the double and triple coverage Marshall could.

As for the D, I don't think enough has been made about a change in coordinators.

We have seen so many changes in consecutive years at that position. Each time we are told the positives the D had wont be lost and the negatives will be corrected.

I will wait to see it this time. ;)

Northman
07-14-2010, 11:02 AM
Funny how that happens when a team is so far behind and has to pass to catch up. Gaffney was a different player in the second half then the first. I don't think he can beat the double and triple coverage Marshall could.

As for the D, I don't think enough has been made about a change in coordinators.

We have seen so many changes in consecutive years at that position. Each time we are told the positives the D had wont be lost and the negatives will be corrected.

I will wait to see it this time. ;)


To this day i still find it funny that so many have put that much stock into one great game (under the circumstances you pointed out) for a journeyman receiver. :lol:

Ravage!!!
07-14-2010, 11:28 AM
To this day i still find it funny that so many have put that much stock into one great game (under the circumstances you pointed out) for a journeyman receiver. :lol:

You could see, and note, that they didn't even put their best cover man on Gaffney. It was if they didn't even recognize him. Why would they?

Northman
07-14-2010, 11:32 AM
Of all the mediocre seasons the last 10 years, losing games at home has been one of my biggest gripes.

Teams used to hate coming here to play. Seems after the SB years, the team really didn't put much emphasis on "protecting their house".

Hopefully McDaniels and company stress the importance of winning at home. It's embarrassing losing home games to lesser division opponents.

Also one of my biggest annoyances. Winning all the homes games is 8 wins guaranteed. If you do that and steal 1-2 on the road that easily puts you at 10 wins but you have to take care of your own territory first. Its been a long time since we've been able to do that.

arapaho2
07-14-2010, 11:35 AM
its a shitty article...period...a total hack



just this should tell you

Injuries have depleted their O-line. While that is never good, it is only May. Their guys will be 100 percent by September.

followed by

Ryan Clady, their standout left tackle—the most reliable guy on their whole team along with Champ Bailey and Brian Dawkins—is down.

He might be back by Week 1, but even so, he will likely be rusty for the first several games

or this

Russ Hochstein, possibly their starting center, is also currently hobbling.

They drafted three promising and physically imposing offensive linemen, who may be starting faster than initially expected if their veterans don't heal fast.


you mean we didnt draft the most intimidating center in the draft to start over a has been hochstein who played rg last year :lol::lol:

and the rooks may start if the vets dont heal fast...you mean those same vets everyone is complaining about as the reason we couldnt run the ball or pass protect??..those guys?:lol:



you could go on an on with this junk

TXBRONC
07-14-2010, 11:50 AM
i know some will say this is all fluff N' stuff....but i think it is a pretty well thought out and a pretty in depth look.....
:salute:
One last note—in the final game of last season, in which BM and TS were both benched, the Broncos had their best passing game of the season as far as yards go.



Yeah it's pretty much fluff.

Also I find it interesting that you highlighted the comment about the last game of year. Like that was some great accomplishment especially when you're usually at the front of the line to ridicule others when they bring up that we had better offense the year before.

BFD that it was Denver's best passing yardage day. WE LOST BY 20 FREAKIN POINT! To add insult to injury all those yards passing it produced all of 1 touchdown and three interception, two of which provided more than half of the margin of victory. Not only that the guy who had the most receptions and yards had ZERO touchdowns. 14 receptions 214 yards receiving and 0 touchdowns is nothing to really be proud of especially in a loss.

It's kind of hypocritical to be critical of the '08 offense as a whole yet tout one game in '09 as something special.

Like others have said I'll wait and see if that one game is harbinger of better things to come this season.

underrated29
07-14-2010, 11:56 AM
oh yeah, one other thing. Knowshon has been working really hard on his speed!! He has said that himself....He is not trying to bulk up, he is trying to get tougher to withstand the reg season, but he said he is working on speed.

Lonestar
07-14-2010, 12:05 PM
I'm guessing the Debbie downers (most are on IGGY) are typically offended about a positive piece about the broncos.

Kind of make one wonder what will make them happy.

In the past everytime someone rips them I rarley hear them appluad the writer. Hmmmmmmmmmm

I thought except for a few minor errors it seemed pretty much on the mark.

Any and all improvement on the LOS will make those guys behind them seem so much better.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

Tempus Fugit
07-14-2010, 12:06 PM
Poorly written article basing too much on "hope and change".

Traveler
07-14-2010, 12:22 PM
Poorly written article basing too much on "hope and change".

Wow! A sports and politically related jab at the same time.:tsk:

Lonestar
07-14-2010, 12:39 PM
To this day i still find it funny that so many have put that much stock into one great game (under the circumstances you pointed out) for a journeyman receiver. :lol:


Funny how it is that many "knowledgeable" fans take so little stock of the progress the two made with each other that day.

I repeat:


New scheme

35 of 53 new players

new coaches

old coaches had to learn scheme.

catastrophic injury to ORT in game 7 IIRC never to play worth a crap again.

hamilton replaced by hockstein after bye week

casey totally out of his element in PBS.

2 count them 2 Clady and Kuper effective players on OL .

Orton playing one last half of season on High ankle sprain

claymore
07-14-2010, 12:53 PM
Funny how it is that many "knowledgeable" fans take so little stock of the progress the two made with each other that day.

I repeat:


New scheme

35 of 53 new players

new coaches

old coaches had to learn scheme.

catastrophic injury to ORT in game 7 IIRC never to play worth a crap again.

hamilton replaced by hockstein after bye week

casey totally out of his element in PBS.

2 count them 2 Clady and Kuper effective players on OL .

Orton playing one last half of season on High ankle sprain


I see zero progress in that list.

T.K.O.
07-14-2010, 12:55 PM
Yeah it's pretty much fluff.

Also I find it interesting that you highlighted the comment about the last game of year. Like that was some great accomplishment especially when you're usually at the front of the line to ridicule others when they bring up that we had better offense the year before.

BFD that it was Denver's best passing yardage day. WE LOST BY 20 FREAKIN POINT! To add insult to injury all those yards passing it produced all of 1 touchdown and three interception, two of which provided more than half of the margin of victory. Not only that the guy who had the most receptions and yards had ZERO touchdowns. 14 receptions 214 yards receiving and 0 touchdowns is nothing to really be proud of especially in a loss.

It's kind of hypocritical to be critical of the '08 offense as a whole yet tout one game in '09 as something special.

Like others have said I'll wait and see if that one game is harbinger of better things to come this season.

you must have me confused with someone else.....i don't ridicule anyone for saying the 08' offense was good.or even when they say better than 09'
i defend the new guys when people say cutler was great and orton sucks...when there is no evidence to support it.
i think the offense has been less than stellar since 98'
i also dont think there is much of a chance that the 2010 offense will be worse than the 09' (or 08' for that matter)
i happen to believe it was pretty amazing that the team hardly skipped a beat while learning a new scheme and adding as many players,coaches and what was a much tougher schedule in 09'
thats why i'm optimistic about this year.
i think the entire team should play better having a year together.:salute:
and by the way i did'nt write the article i just highlighted what i considered some key points.
the one about gaffney was simply to point out that when given the chance he has proved he can step up.
he had 732 yds last year from noodle arm all the while marshall had statistically his best year.so orton could not have been as bad as some try and make him out to be

TXBRONC
07-14-2010, 01:31 PM
you must have me confused with someone else.....i don't ridicule anyone for saying the 08' offense was good.or even when they say better than 09'
i defend the new guys when people say cutler was great and orton sucks...when there is no evidence to support it.
i think the offense has been less than stellar since 98'
i also dont think there is much of a chance that the 2010 offense will be worse than the 09' (or 08' for that matter)
i happen to believe it was pretty amazing that the team hardly skipped a beat while learning a new scheme and adding as many players,coaches and what was a much tougher schedule in 09'
thats why i'm optimistic about this year.
i think the entire team should play better having a year together.:salute:
and by the way i did'nt write the article i just highlighted what i considered some key points.
the one about gaffney was simply to point out that when given the chance he has proved he can step up.
he had 732 yds last year from noodle arm all the while marshall had statistically his best year.so orton could not have been as bad as some try and make him out to be

No I don't have you confused with anyone else it's one of the things you do consistently with people you disagree with. Btw where did I say you wrote the article? :confused:

Something you and a few others gloss over is that Gaffney wouldn't have only put ususal stats if McDaniels hadn't of benched Marshall for the final game. Gaffney has one really good game that pads stats all of the sudden he can step for 16 games. At best that remains to be seen. I hope he can but I'm not holding my breath.

T.K.O.
07-14-2010, 01:48 PM
No I don't have you confused with anyone else it's one of the things you do consistently with people you disagree with. .

uh....ok
you have responded to my positive posts about anything broncos
with your negative spin REPEATEDLY.
to the point where ive come to expect it.even though these posts have not been aimed at anyone in particular,you take it upon yourself to attempt to discredit or as you say "ridicule" my opinions.
i will not take the time to retrieve them and point out the multiple times this has happened as i am aware that any post can result in this type of behavior.
but you have taken it almost to a "stalking" level.
and now you are accusing me of doing what you have done?
pot say hello to my little kettle (with a cool cuban accent popularized by al pacino in scarface);)

jhildebrand
07-14-2010, 02:03 PM
Funny how it is that many "knowledgeable" fans take so little stock of the progress the two made with each other that day.

I repeat:
New scheme

35 of 53 new players

new coaches

old coaches had to learn scheme.

catastrophic injury to ORT in game 7 IIRC never to play worth a crap again.

hamilton replaced by hockstein after bye week

casey totally out of his element in PBS.

2 count them 2 Clady and Kuper effective players on OL .

Orton playing one last half of season on High ankle sprain


It's an old hat already, Jrwiz! But for one final time let's take a closer look.




I repeat:

New scheme

-How is this in any way an excuse or legitimate reason for failing to make the playoffs especially after a 6-0 start and when McDaniels declared the Broncos would be in the playoffs? :confused:

Atlanta and Baltimore just a season or two earlier went to the playoffs with new coaches, new scheme, new ROOKIE QB's, and altered rosters!


35 of 53 new players

-Why was there 35 new players? Because your HERO McDaniels wanted 35 new players and got the 35 players HE wanted. Had he not wanted them, they wouldn't have been here. It was HIS ROSTER!


new coaches-Again, I fail to see how this is in any way a legitimate reason for any of the Broncos shortcomings last season! He filled out his staff as he saw fit. Shoot, he even fired the only real GM's we had in the Goodmans! To top it all off he fired the one coach er mutually resigned him whose unit actually performed at an acceptable level. A unit who, FOR SOME REASON, isn't granted this same list of excuses by you for some reason unbeknownst to me :confused:


old coaches had to learn scheme.-Again a McDaniels issue. He chose and filled out his staff. If those coaches couldn't learn his scheme than that speaks to a failing on McDaniels' part!


catastrophic injury to ORT in game 7 IIRC never to play worth a crap again.
-Show me one team in the league without injuries!


hamilton replaced by hockstein after bye week-Josh's roster!


casey totally out of his element in PBS.
-Speaks to a failing on McDaniels part. That is what TC and preseason is for! To ensure you have the players that best fit your system and can perform they way you expect them to. Casey didn't have to be a part of the final 53.


2 count them 2 Clady and Kuper effective players on OL .
-McDaniels' roster.


Orton playing one last half of season on High ankle sprain-
Consecutive seasons with ankle injuries for Orton. Surprised? :confused:

TXBRONC
07-14-2010, 02:21 PM
uh....ok
you have responded to my positive posts about anything broncos
with your negative spin REPEATEDLY.
to the point where ive come to expect it.even though these posts have not been aimed at anyone in particular,you take it upon yourself to attempt to discredit or as you say "ridicule" my opinions.
i will not take the time to retrieve them and point out the multiple times this has happened as i am aware that any post can result in this type of behavior.
but you have taken it almost to a "stalking" level.
and now you are accusing me of doing what you have done?
pot say hello to my little kettle (with a cool cuban accent popularized by al pacino in scarface);)

Stalkiing? You starting a new thread and me posting in it doesn't constitute stalking.

Negative spin? I haven't said we're doomed and I've never rooted for them fail. I pointed out some facts.

Ridiculed you opinion? I don't think so, certainly not in this thread. I haven't made fun of you for your opinion or called you any names. I didn't make some kind of dig at you and put a laughing smilely face (:lol:, :laugh:) behind it.

We'll see if the guy who wrote this article is correct or just spinning. I hope he's right but I do have reservation when come to our passing game.

Lonestar
07-14-2010, 02:25 PM
It's an old hat already, Jrwiz! But for one final time let's take a closer look.

FWIW BAL had a Great D, ATL weak division what id they do this past year.

Needed at least 35 new players as the ones cut were for the most part unclaimed off of our waivers.

new coaches if you are the one that is teaching a scheme you should atlas know more about it that the players. I realize that Josh picked them all but for Gods sake please do not tell me they are going to be up to speed on it in minutes especially Offense. IMHO dennison and Bobby were so invested in ZBS and un-knowledgeable in PBS that they were ineffective trying to teach PBS that or the players they had were never going to be able to play PBS (OL). and thus e because of that the RB's well, we all saw how that worked out right?

just how many of those teams were also trying to mesh a rookie RB, a newbie QB into the scheme without any continuity on the OLINE. Take it from an Ex ORG timing and trust is everything on the oline especially if you are not able to use brute strength.

You saw how ineffective DEN was when Lepsis went down a couple of years before. The O turned to crap. tell me how losing your ORT replacing the OLG and having an old man way past his prime at center that needed help from both the guards was going to survive.


as for hockstein replacing hamilton sure he was Joshes and Ricks choice but little did we know that casey was a shell of his old self. DO you suppose that Rick told him of the troubles on the OLINE before Harris went down. I suspect if he had Josh would have brought in more players for back up. Seems to be his MO to make sure he had the best players on the field.

I'll bet that rick thought he could teach them up "because they were one of the best in 08" and when they figured out by about game 3 that hamilton was struggling it was to late. FIgured that one spare part in Hochstein should fix that only to have Harris go down right after the switch that my friend was the death knell for the offense.

as for Orton consecutive seasons High ankle sprain.

Not something that is congenital it happens if it continues to happen then he needs to go and perhaps one of the concerns about giving him a long term extension, right now he is the man pray he stays healthy till Tim and Quinn get some time at QB.

TXBRONC
07-14-2010, 02:38 PM
Consecutive seasons with ankle injuries for Orton. Surprised? :confused:

Players get hurt every year but if they are well enough to get onto the field then they're expected play well. If a player is that hurt then he shouldn't be out on the field. It may not be fair but it is a fact of life in the NFL.

Ravage!!!
07-14-2010, 02:57 PM
Players get hurt every year but if they are well enough to get onto the field then they're expected play well. If a player is that hurt then he shouldn't be out on the field. It may not be fair but it is a fact of life in the NFL.

If the coaches didn't think he was healthy enough to play well, he wouldnt' be on the field.

jhildebrand
07-14-2010, 03:05 PM
FWIW BAL had a Great D

Seems like a reason NOT to MUTUALLY resign a coach whose unit was #1 for much of the season and finished no worse than 7th in team D.

HORSEPOWER 56
07-14-2010, 03:18 PM
It's not a bad article, but it seems to take into account the best possible scenario than just taking an unbiased approach. It was obviously written by a Broncos fan with high hopes for the upcoming season, which is fine, but there are several aspects of the article that made me shake my head.

First off - discussing the O-line, having anything but concern even if Clady and Harris are back at full strength is suspect to me. We have the possibility of starting at least 2 rookies on day one which may be okay, but odds are there'll be some growing pains.

Second - his glowing praise for Alphonso Smith makes me think he didn't watch many games last season. His thoughts on Ty Law returning (no chance) made me shake my head. The simple fact that our secondary isn't getting any younger means that the likely-hood they'll get better is almost non-existent. That leaves the same, or worse.

Last, bringing up Marquez Branson (Really?) like he's going to be some major player in the offense this year (he's never taken a snap and was an UDFA) was just a case of wishful thinking and reaching really hard for something nice to say about the TEs other than just "Graham is a good blocker".

It's great that he's excited, but other than Orton, Moreno, and the Secondary and LBers, we really don't know what type of team we'll field this year. There are just as many ???'s this year as their were last year.

HORSEPOWER 56
07-14-2010, 03:36 PM
Funny how it is that many "knowledgeable" fans take so little stock of the progress the two made with each other that day.

I repeat:


New scheme

35 of 53 new players

new coaches

old coaches had to learn scheme.

catastrophic injury to ORT in game 7 IIRC never to play worth a crap again.

hamilton replaced by hockstein after bye week

casey totally out of his element in PBS.

2 count them 2 Clady and Kuper effective players on OL .

Orton playing one last half of season on High ankle sprain


Everyone else replies... IT WAS WEEK 17!!! All those excuses are defunct. If you don't know the scheme by WEEK 17, then you don't deserve to be there. We went 6-0 and there were no excuses, just praise. They DESERVE TO BE CRITICIZED FOR GOING 2-8 DOWN THE STRETCH!!! Especially for that disgraceful game vs KC AT HOME!!!

Let it go, the excuses NEVER get better, and they NEVER sound better, either.

If you were the new guy at work and did your job perfectly for the first six weeks then fell flat on your ass for 8 of the last 10, do you think your boss (or coworkers) would be okay with excuses about still being new, or sick, or whatever?

Tempus Fugit
07-14-2010, 05:15 PM
Players get hurt every year but if they are well enough to get onto the field then they're expected play well. If a player is that hurt then he shouldn't be out on the field. It may not be fair but it is a fact of life in the NFL.


If the coaches didn't think he was healthy enough to play well, he wouldnt' be on the field.

Coaches often know that a player isn't ready to "play well", yet they put them in the game anyway. It can happen due to need or hope. Sometimes (i.e. T.O. in Super Bowl) they get lucky and a player who wasn't really ready finds a way to get it done anyway. Sometimes (i.e. Brady in 2007, Boldin last season) the player just can't do enough of what he normally does to overcome the injury.

Smart coaches/players/fans understand all this and don't hold it against players.

Ravage!!!
07-14-2010, 05:27 PM
Coaches often know that a player isn't ready to "play well", yet they put them in the game anyway. It can happen due to need or hope. Sometimes (i.e. T.O. in Super Bowl) they get lucky and a player who wasn't really ready finds a way to get it done anyway. Sometimes (i.e. Brady in 2007, Boldin last season) the player just can't do enough of what he normally does to overcome the injury.

Smart coaches/players/fans understand all this and don't hold it against players.

heh..

Smart ones, huh?

Smart fans also don't continue to try and use this as an excuse. Putting Orton in during the season, and TO playing during the SB, aren't even comparable situations. Smart coaches/players/fans understand this, and don't try to make the comparison.

But I don't think that you'll see coaches that will put a player into the starting lineup just to "Play"... and not play well. Maybe not great, but play well. If they don't think the player will "Play well".. then they should/would put another player in that spot that will. Other wise, you are putting a player in the lineup that you EXPECT to play poorly. That would be a horrendous decision, and one I would hope NO coach would ever admit too.

broncobryce
07-14-2010, 06:03 PM
Yeah the alphonzo smith thing was way off.Not a bad article, people will critisize no matter what. Seems like some here will only accept an article that is negative. God forbid anyone try to see positve in our team!
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Tempus Fugit
07-14-2010, 06:03 PM
heh..

Smart ones, huh?

Smart fans also don't continue to try and use this as an excuse. Putting Orton in during the season, and TO playing during the SB, aren't even comparable situations. Smart coaches/players/fans understand this, and don't try to make the comparison.

1.) I wasn't using anything as an excuse. I was simply noting my disagreement with your assertion.

2.) Of course they are comparable. One can discuss the different levels of game readiness, but the basic comparison is still a player trying to play football while injured.


But I don't think that you'll see coaches that will put a player into the starting lineup just to "Play"... and not play well. Maybe not great, but play well. If they don't think the player will "Play well".. then they should/would put another player in that spot that will. Other wise, you are putting a player in the lineup that you EXPECT to play poorly. That would be a horrendous decision, and one I would hope NO coach would ever admit too.

It happens in every sport, even at the highest level. We've seen this happen time and again in football, baseball, hockey, etc.... 50% of Michael Jordan may be better in the eyes of the coach than 100% of his backup. I've not only seen it, I've participated in it as the injured player, albeit on a lower level.

GGMoogly
07-14-2010, 06:08 PM
:grillin: It's Summertime, and the livin' is easy. According to my watch, that means the Broncos are winning another Super Bowl. Take your doubts and put them in a footlocker, if you have to keep them around, I'm groovin' to happy thoughts of polishing our next Lombardi! :cheers:

T.K.O.
07-14-2010, 06:23 PM
:grillin: It's Summertime, and the livin' is easy. According to my watch, that means the Broncos are winning another Super Bowl. Take your doubts and put them in a footlocker, if you have to keep them around, I'm groovin' to happy thoughts of polishing our next Lombardi! :cheers:

wins coolest post of the offseason........hands down:cool::salute:

T.K.O.
07-14-2010, 06:25 PM
If the coaches didn't think he was healthy enough to play well, he wouldnt' be on the field.

unless your backup qb is 3 of 13 for 23 yds and 1 int. with -4 rushing yards and SWEET passer rating of 15.1;)

jhildebrand
07-14-2010, 06:47 PM
If the coaches didn't think he was healthy enough to play well, he wouldnt' be on the field.

Same for Moreno despite a HEALTHY and RESTED Hillis :tsk:

Lonestar
07-14-2010, 08:44 PM
Seems like a reason NOT to MUTUALLY resign a coach whose unit was #1 for much of the season and finished no worse than 7th in team D.

Since you and I are not privy to the conversations they had nor know for sure whose decisison it was to sign fields as our starting NT.

Let's just say who ever it was it was a really dumb idea.

Can we agree to that?

I believe all of us know the the defense at the EOY was a shell of itself compared to the begining of the year. Can we agree on that?

Now I know ythat YOU believe that ist was all the offenses fault that the defense was on the field all the time. Are we in ageerence with that also?

Can we also agree that it usually takes about 5-6 weeks for opposing coordinators to find the weaknesses of O's and D's?
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Lonestar
07-14-2010, 08:58 PM
Everyone else replies... IT WAS WEEK 17!!! All those excuses are defunct. If you don't know the scheme by WEEK 17, then you don't deserve to be there. We went 6-0 and there were no excuses, just praise. They DESERVE TO BE CRITICIZED FOR GOING 2-8 DOWN THE STRETCH!!! Especially for that disgraceful game vs KC AT HOME!!!

Let it go, the excuses NEVER get better, and they NEVER sound better, either.

If you were the new guy at work and did your job perfectly for the first six weeks then fell flat on your ass for 8 of the last 10, do you think your boss (or coworkers) would be okay with excuses about still being new, or sick, or whatever?

Me thinks that you never played a team sport and if you did you were a WR.

Facts are the LOS where yoiu win and lose games.

If you have good blocking then your going to win more times than not.

Having polumbus, hockstein and casey in the middle is pretty bad. Kuper bless his soul usually had to help out in the middle more because Harris knew what he was doing and I'm sur one of the reasons that casey came back for another year. When Kupe had to switch to help polumbus well that exposed casey. (No other explaination how he went from all pro to bum in one year) IMO.

Having hockstein casey polumbus on a light in the ass OL did not help the continuity of the scheme.

It take years for oline to trust each others moves the best oloines work togther for a decade in some cases.

How YOU expect them all to know the scheme amd for it tp work flawlessly in 17 games in beyond all logic.
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dunk7
07-14-2010, 09:05 PM
To this day i still find it funny that so many have put that much stock into one great game (under the circumstances you pointed out) for a journeyman receiver. :lol:

I like playing fantasy football against those guys.:elefant:

TXBRONC
07-15-2010, 10:38 AM
Coaches often know that a player isn't ready to "play well", yet they put them in the game anyway. It can happen due to need or hope. Sometimes (i.e. T.O. in Super Bowl) they get lucky and a player who wasn't really ready finds a way to get it done anyway. Sometimes (i.e. Brady in 2007, Boldin last season) the player just can't do enough of what he normally does to overcome the injury.

Smart coaches/players/fans understand all this and don't hold it against players.

Smart coaches/players/fans understand that if player is going get onto they're going to be expected to preform at a high level. This rudimentary to Pro Football.

arapaho2
07-20-2010, 12:02 PM
unless your backup qb is 3 of 13 for 23 yds and 1 int. with -4 rushing yards and SWEET passer rating of 15.1;)


and who praytell...signed mr simms to a huge contract for a backup qb..specially one that hadnt thrown a ball in a game for over two seasons

you guys cant glowingly support josh every move....then critisize players like simms for his play...when josh brought him here...made him the backup...and apparently paid him very well to suck when we needed him

arapaho2
07-20-2010, 12:09 PM
Me thinks that you never played a team sport and if you did you were a WR.

Facts are the LOS where yoiu win and lose games.

If you have good blocking then your going to win more times than not.

Having polumbus, hockstein and casey in the middle is pretty bad. Kuper bless his soul usually had to help out in the middle more because Harris knew what he was doing and I'm sur one of the reasons that casey came back for another year. When Kupe had to switch to help polumbus well that exposed casey. (No other explaination how he went from all pro to bum in one year) IMO.

Having hockstein casey polumbus on a light in the ass OL did not help the continuity of the scheme.

It take years for oline to trust each others moves the best oloines work togther for a decade in some cases.

How YOU expect them all to know the scheme amd for it tp work flawlessly in 17 games in beyond all logic.
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more like...how a young ignorant head coach expected somewhat undersized guys brought to the team specifically to run the zone blocking scheme... to be able to magically pick up a powerblocking scheme and have it work flawlessly is beyond all logic :coffee::coffee:

Lonestar
07-21-2010, 08:35 AM
more like...how a young ignorant head coach expected somewhat undersized guys brought to the team specifically to run the zone blocking scheme... to be able to magically pick up a powerblocking scheme and have it work flawlessly is beyond all logic :coffee::coffee:


How can you logically think that Josh did not ask his OLINE coach can yout guys make this tranision. Is beyond me.

Do you rerally belive that Josh did not evalute the OL with his coaches and grt assurances from them that it could be done?

If you do no think that then your hate for the guy is beyond salvage.

Do you thinkbhe brough hockstein in just because he was from NE. For the hell of it?

I suspect both him and Rick knew that hamilton was going to be the weak link. I believe they did not have a clue that casey would deteriorate as fast as he did.

Combined they were ok but playing Pbs they stunk individually.

I have been stating for a couple of years that hamilton was the weak link as I have watched since 05 getting pushed back into the pocket with regularity.

The OL has been a weak link for years in the redzone production and one of th primarly reason Elam will be a HOF kicker as they more often than not had to seTtle for a FG when they got inside the 10. The field was a smaller place to defend and our Running game down there sucked.

The question I have for you is do you hate Josh that much that you can't see the forest for the trees. Because if you do you had better be Prepared to hate him along time.

This will be my final response on this subject.
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Ravage!!!
07-21-2010, 09:46 AM
:lol: :lol:

Yeah... its hard to believe McD would take control of everything and make a decision without asking anyone else :coffee: Hard to imagine him bringing in a Patriot, purely because he was with the Patriots :coffee:

I guess we can say that the HoF passers are only in the HoF because their team was behind so much, they had to pass all the time.

I guess the HoF runners are only in the HoF because they played for teams with no good QB/WRs, thus the team had to run all the time.

Had nothing to do with their talent, just as Elam wasn't really a good kicker, he only played for a team that couldn't "punch it in." I guess thats why every kicker on bad teams are headed for the HoF (after all, every kicker from the Lions and Browns are going to the HoF).... and that 63yrd kick was pure luck. :lol:

Absolutely an absurd statement.... not to mention he won't make the HoF, since there has only been 1 kicker in.

jhildebrand
07-21-2010, 10:20 AM
Do you rerally belive that Josh did not evalute the OL with his coaches and grt assurances from them that it could be done?

At the end of the day, it was his roster!



Do you thinkbhe brough hockstein in just because he was from NE?

I think his NE ties were a large part of it if not the only reason. McD wanted a guy who had familiarity with his system as opposed to picking up someone else's CASTOFF who had no knowledge and would be a complete gamble.



I suspect both him and Rick knew that hamilton was going to be the weak link.

Hmmmm....so why did it take so long for Hochstein to be inserted in the starting line up?



Combined they were ok but playing Pbs they stunk individually.

Interesting observation. So if that is the case, why didn't they recognize any of this or see any of this during the preseason??? :confused:




reason Elam will be a HOF kicker

Elam wont be in the HoF! :lol:


Because if you do you had better be Prepared to hate him along time.


I don't hate McDaniels. I don't root against him. For better or for worse (just like Wade Phillips) he is our coach. I will praise him and criticise him. At the end of the day he is a bronco and I hope he succeeds. That doesn't mean he is above legitimate criticism.

Ravage!!!
07-21-2010, 10:47 AM
Hmmmm....so why did it take so long for Hochstein to be inserted in the starting line up?

Its an interesting question. If Hochstein knew the system, and was better than our "weak link"... then shouldn't he have been the starter from day one? I mean, he knew the system and was better, right? What more is there? :confused:

broncofaninfla
07-21-2010, 11:08 AM
Hoch stunk it up last season, I'm still wondering why he is even on this team?

TXBRONC
07-21-2010, 12:42 PM
Hoch stunk it up last season, I'm still wondering why he is even on this team?

For depth he's ok and in spot duty you can get away with him being in there but I didn't think he was brought in to be long term solution.

jhildebrand
07-21-2010, 01:55 PM
Its an interesting question. If Hochstein knew the system, and was better than our "weak link"... then shouldn't he have been the starter from day one? I mean, he knew the system and was better, right? What more is there? :confused:

Not only that, WHY keep Hamilton at ALL? Seattle obviously thinks highly of him! Why not trade him? :confused: You could then bring in another bigger body and groom them into the "system" while the man er Hochstein works.

The fact is the final roster was McDaniels and his alone. At the end of the day, he had everybody HE wanted AND he had a full pre season and TC and OTA's to set it!

Lonestar
07-21-2010, 02:25 PM
At the end of the day, it was his roster!



I think his NE ties were a large part of it if not the only reason. McD wanted a guy who had familiarity with his system as opposed to picking up someone else's CASTOFF who had no knowledge and would be a complete gamble.



Hmmmm....so why did it take so long for Hochstein to be inserted in the starting line up?



Interesting observation. So if that is the case, why didn't they recognize any of this or see any of this during the preseason??? :confused:




Elam wont be in the HoF! :lol:



I don't hate McDaniels. I don't root against him. For better or for worse (just like Wade Phillips) he is our coach. I will praise him and criticise him. At the end of the day he is a bronco and I hope he succeeds. That doesn't mean he is above legitimate criticism.


YEs it was his roster but think about it the OL was supposedly the bets oline in the NFL in 08, coming back intact with the oline coach everyone was raving about. Realistically how was he going to make a change?

Rick IMHO was out of his league as an OLINE coach, think about his for one minute he was coaching a position that he NEVER played (yes I know many others do it also) but he learned the ZBS from that master therefore he was one of the best at it. WHen asked to coach the PBS which is a totally different style, one on one verses the OLINE doing something in unison .

Why did they not make the change up front? I'm going to guess and say it was Josh believing that his coach and Hamilton could make the transition. If not they had Hockstein as back up. Who was familiar as you said with the NE ways. Does that a make sense?

As for why did they not see it in the preseason? maybe they did and Rick assured Josh that Hamilton would be able to transition?

I do not know.

I do know that since 06 when they changed to amore pocket protection style and frankly even before that Hamilton was a weak link on the oline. WHen working next to Nails and Lepsis he was adequate and was heir apparent to nails. Even when working between Casey year one and Clady he was good at what he did as long as the pocket was there but push came to shove he was pushed back intuit eh pocket many times. Being an OLD ORG I see and watch the oline a lot and miss many plays because I have been zeroing in on the LOS play. I did not miss many of those time when the pocket collapsed from all sides thus forcing passes or sacks .


As far as Elam getting into the HOF, Who knows IIRCC he owns all kicking records including a tie for the longest FG made, Until his last couple of years he lead the league in kicking % IIRC.

Even though there is ONLY one Kicker in the HOF, he stands a better chance than any other kickers to get there . and frankly had we had a decent RED zone offense he would have had about half as many FG's as he does. SO will he get there time will tell.


Unless you are the poster quoted. Why did you feel the need to say YOU do not hate Josh?

Lonestar
07-21-2010, 02:50 PM
Not only that, WHY keep Hamilton at ALL? Seattle obviously thinks highly of him! Why not trade him? :confused: You could then bring in another bigger body and groom them into the "system" while the man er Hochstein works.

The fact is the final roster was McDaniels and his alone. At the end of the day, he had everybody HE wanted AND he had a full pre season and TC and OTA's to set it!

SUre it was his decision but not his alone do not be silly, if Rick would not have wanted him not eh roster then he would have been gone. Same goes for Bobby T or any of the other coaches he is not going to force a player on them JUST because he wants them on the staff.

HE may be a little head strong, but he is not stupid also.

NO decent manager in any work area is going to force a employee on a supervisor and expect good things to happen.

Josh would not have gotten this far doing such things.

jhildebrand
07-21-2010, 02:51 PM
YEs it was his roster but think about it the OL was supposedly the bets oline in the NFL in 08, coming back intact with the oline coach everyone was raving about.

Not supposedly. WAS! That is simply a fact. Now, feel free to highlight the fact that Cutler's mobility helped keep sack counts low. I know you wont do that though because you absolutely refuse to compliment the guy in any way ;)



Realistically how was he going to make a change?


Just like he did with the other 35 changes :coffee: If he can move Cutler in week 1, he certainly can move Hamilton :lol:


Unless you are the poster quoted. Why did you feel the need to say YOU do not hate Josh?

Because criticism of McDaniels around here is often synonymous with hate.

Ravage!!!
07-21-2010, 02:55 PM
SUre it was his decision but not his alone do not be silly, if Rick would not have wanted him not eh roster then he would have been gone. Same goes for Bobby T or any of the other coaches he is not going to force a player on them JUST because he wants them on the staff.

HE may be a little head strong, but he is not stupid also.

NO decent manager in any work area is going to force a employee on a supervisor and expect good things to happen.

Josh would not have gotten this far doing such things.

Seriously?

You don't think McD makes the decision based on HIS wants, but bases personnel decisions from the position coaches?

Lets look at the track record for a moment, and understand that McDaniels is going to make personnel decisions on HIS wants. He wanted a long snapper from NE. He wanted a WR from NE. He wanted and OL from NE. Why would he go and GET these players, and then ask if its 'ok' to get rid of them?

He wants to buy the ingredients for his soup. He's not going to ask another chef what he can or cannot throw away.

Lonestar
07-21-2010, 03:08 PM
Not supposedly. WAS! That is simply a fact. Now, feel free to highlight the fact that Cutler's mobility helped keep sack counts low. I know you wont do that though because you absolutely refuse to compliment the guy in any way ;)



Just like he did with the other 35 changes :coffee: If he can move Cutler in week 1, he certainly can move Hamilton :lol:



Because criticism of McDaniels around here is often synonymous with hate.


I have never said anything about jay other than he was a head case and that having a rocket arm was not the only prerequisite of being a good QB, like some seem to think.

I think IF he can control his urge to force balls, and if he fixes his mechanics that were his fupaw since college and perhaps before he may turn into a great QB.

I just do not think he will be able to deal with the failures of others, ever stop throwing into tight spots.

His rocket arm has gotten him this far and he is a multi millionaire why should he change? He has Jeff GEorge syndrome written all over him. A superb athlete that has to make the "PLAY" instead of checking down to hit a wide open man. He has done that all of his QB career. His rocket arm is a bane to his success long term as he will continue to do or try to do the impossible.

Yes jay mobility and the style of play mikey employed (a lot like pre Dinger) allowed the OL to be almost sack free.

But as we saw early that this oline as constituted was not going to be able to play PBS after the initial few games.

Why did Rick and Josh decide not to make change up front WHO knows but I would love to be a fly on the wall in some of those meetings.

Why make the change at QB well Josh did not have much to say on that matter now did he ?

Other than kissing jays butt we all know that was not going to happen there was little chance of jay staying here after mikey left.

I think we can all agree that once mike and bates left then jays time here was limited, perhaps if PAt had not pulled the plug in it maybe Josh could have forced him into staying and learning something from him.

But once jay refused to call the owner it was academic.

FWIW jay was not moved week 1 like you implied

jhildebrand
07-21-2010, 09:59 PM
FWIW jay was not moved week 1 like you implied

:lol:

He all but moved Cutler his first week on the job making er taking phone calls ;)

TXBRONC
07-21-2010, 10:11 PM
:lol:

He all but moved Cutler his first week on the job making er taking phone calls ;)

With the way things went down it leaves me wonder if McDaniels ever wanted to work with Jay in the first place. Not that it matters now..

Lonestar
07-21-2010, 10:24 PM
:lol:

He all but moved Cutler his first week on the job making er taking phone calls ;)

NOw you are talking crap again put up or shut up, by showing a link that he did.

IIIRC this all started to blow up about a 4-6 weeks before the draft.Which is a far cry from his first week in DEN.

so break out the links or retract your statement.

I also see you had no further comment about the rest of my post.

jhildebrand
07-21-2010, 11:30 PM
Oh, I am so used to you ignoring the bulk or main point of my posts I just thought that was the M.O. with you. Interesting you recognize it! :cool:

arapaho2
07-22-2010, 11:03 AM
NOw you are talking crap again put up or shut up, by showing a link that he did.

IIIRC this all started to blow up about a 4-6 weeks before the draft.Which is a far cry from his first week in DEN.

so break out the links or retract your statement.

I also see you had no further comment about the rest of my post.

how many time do we have to prove these things to you guys only to have you COMPLETLY IGNORE IT:lol:
http://www.denverpost.com/business/ci_11945954

quote:After the first reports about the trade gone awry surfaced, coach Josh McDaniels told Mike Klis of The Denver Post: "We don't want to trade Jay. We never did. He's our quarterback."


followed by


quote:
A few days ago McDaniels told Peter King of Sports Illustrated that he did pursue a deal with New England for Matt Cassel, but "I think we were too late to the dance."

Northman
07-22-2010, 11:07 AM
how many time do we have to prove these things to you guys only to have you COMPLETLY IGNORE IT:lol:
http://www.denverpost.com/business/ci_11945954

quote:After the first reports about the trade gone awry surfaced, coach Josh McDaniels told Mike Klis of The Denver Post: "We don't want to trade Jay. We never did. He's our quarterback."


followed by


quote:
A few days ago McDaniels told Peter King of Sports Illustrated that he did pursue a deal with New England for Matt Cassel, but "I think we were too late to the dance."



Thats gonna sting.

topscribe
07-22-2010, 11:08 AM
how many time do we have to prove these things to you guys only to have you COMPLETLY IGNORE IT:lol:
http://www.denverpost.com/business/ci_11945954


quote:
A few days ago McDaniels told Peter King of Sports Illustrated that he did pursue a deal with New England for Matt Cassel, but "I think we were too late to the dance."

Oh yes, good ol' Woody.

I don't get a whole lot out of him besides a good laugh once in a while . . . :coffee:

-----

Northman
07-22-2010, 11:10 AM
Oh yes, good ol' Woody.

I don't get a whole lot out of him besides a good laugh once in a while . . . :coffee:

-----

Actually, the quote is from Peter King.

topscribe
07-22-2010, 11:13 AM
Actually, the quote is from Peter King.

So Woody said that Peter King told him that McDaniels told him . . .

Yeah, I get it . . .

-----

Northman
07-22-2010, 11:16 AM
So Woody said that Peter King told him that McDaniels told him . . .

Yeah, I get it . . .

-----

So basically your discounting not one but 2 journalist because you just dont want to believe it. Yea, we get it....

TXBRONC
07-22-2010, 11:23 AM
Actually, the quote is from Peter King.


So Woody said that Peter King told him that McDaniels told him . . .

Yeah, I get it . . .

-----

What part of "the quote is from Peter King" do you not get? :confused:

It's not a complex statement. :listen:

topscribe
07-22-2010, 11:25 AM
So basically your discounting not one but 2 journalist because you just dont want to believe it. Yea, we get it....

It's third hand information. From Woody. Had I read it in, say, Legwold's column,
or heard it directly from McDaniels in a presser or interview, then I would place
more credibility to it.

This little paragraph in Woody's article contradicts other information where
McDaniels and Xanders said they got a couple phone calls, discussed it briefly,
and said no.

Now, I'm don't necessarily believe that story, either - but neither account has
any convincing documentation to it, at least to me.

And Woody isn't the fastest horse out of the gate . .

------

arapaho2
07-22-2010, 11:27 AM
Oh yes, good ol' Woody.

I don't get a whole lot out of him besides a good laugh once in a while . . . :coffee:

-----


except if he's glowingly endorseing your views right?...then he's the man:coffee:

Northman
07-22-2010, 11:28 AM
It's third hand information. From Woody. Had I read it in, say, Legwold's column,
or heard it directly from McDaniels in a presser or interview, then I would place
more credibility to it.

This little paragraph in Woody's article contradicts other information where
McDaniels and Xanders said they got a couple phone calls, discussed it briefly,
and said no.

Now, I'm don't necessarily believe that story, either - but neither account has
any convincing documentation to it, at least to me.

And Woody isn't the fastest horse out of the gate . .

------


You'll have to show me the links where they said no. Most of the reports ive seen on this has them taking calls and then pursuing the offer made only to be "late to the dance". It was only after the trade to KC that McD and company said that Jay was their QB.

TXBRONC
07-22-2010, 11:28 AM
except if he's glowingly endorseing your views right?...then he's the man:coffee:

Spot on. :nod:

arapaho2
07-22-2010, 11:29 AM
What part of "the quote is from Peter King" do you not get? :confused:

It's not a complex statement. :listen:


what part of...if it fits tops views it would be definitive proof...since it doesnt...its crap


dont you get

topscribe
07-22-2010, 11:32 AM
what part of...if it fits tops views it would be definitive proof...since it doesnt...its crap


dont you get

What views? I just said, very clearly that I don't believe anything at this point.

So what views would you be talking about? Or was this just a veiled attack?

-----

TXBRONC
07-22-2010, 11:37 AM
what part of...if it fits tops views it would be definitive proof...since it doesnt...its crap


dont you get

Sorry. :redface:

topscribe
07-22-2010, 11:42 AM
You'll have to show me the links where they said no. Most of the reports ive seen on this has them taking calls and then pursuing the offer made only to be "late to the dance". It was only after the trade to KC that McD and company said that Jay was their QB.

Why do I have to show you links to prove to you that I need more evidence?
What kind of lunacy is that? Follow the news more closely if you want to see it.
It's not up to me to prove anything when I say I don't necessarily believe
anything.

What is your argument, anyway? Damn.

-----

Northman
07-22-2010, 11:45 AM
Why do I have to show you links to prove to you that I need more evidence?
What kind of lunacy is that? Follow the news more closely if you want to see it.
It's not up to me to prove anything when I say I don't necessarily believe
anything.

What is your argument, anyway? Damn.

-----

So then its just your belief not actual reporting. Im just trying to get the facts straight of your arguement. My bad.

topscribe
07-22-2010, 11:45 AM
except if he's glowingly endorseing your views right?...then he's the man:coffee:

When has Woody ever been "the man" to me?

Are flaming and baiting the very reasons for your and TX's existence on this board?

I don't see anything about me in the OP. :focus:

-----

arapaho2
07-22-2010, 11:45 AM
What views? I just said, very clearly, even trying to bring it down to your level,
that I don't believe anything at this point.

So what views would you be talking about? Or was this just a veiled attack?

-----

no veiled attack top...simply noticing habits


you as well as jr and others...have absalutly no issue taking a second or third hand account statement that followes your personal views as definitive proof

yet if it doesnt or goes against your views..its dissmissed as rubbish and heresay

there are some things as credibility in jouralism...you may not agree with woody in his personal views...but no high end sports writer would publicaly quote another writer like king..without the quote being factual

no sports writer would stay on top and in the front by makeing up shit and naming another sports writer as the source

you may not like woody...but if he's "quoting" peter king then rest assured peter king agrees that it was said to him

topscribe
07-22-2010, 11:47 AM
So then its just your belief not actual reporting. Im just trying to get the facts straight of your arguement. My bad.

I don't have a belief in this matter! I don't necessarily believe Woody's writing.
Never have. I need more evidence.

I don't believe that I believe at this point. Is that a belief?

-----

Northman
07-22-2010, 11:49 AM
I don't have a belief in this matter! I don't necessarily believe Woody's writing.
Never have. I need more evidence.

I don't believe that I believe at this point. Is that a belief?

-----

Could be i dont know. :lol:

topscribe
07-22-2010, 11:49 AM
no veiled attack top...simply noticing habits


you as well as jr and others...have absalutly no issue taking a second or third hand account statement that followes your personal views as definitive proof

yet if it doesnt or goes against your views..its dissmissed as rubbish and heresay

there are some things as credibility in jouralism...you may not agree with woody in his personal views...but no high end sports writer would publicaly quote another writer like king..without the quote being factual

no sports writer would stay on top and in the front by makeing up shit and naming another sports writer as the source

you may not like woody...but if he's "quoting" peter king then rest assured peter king agrees that it was said to him


What views?? I don't have a view in this case!!

Now you tell me what views you are talking about!]

-----

arapaho2
07-22-2010, 11:50 AM
Why do I have to show you links to prove to you that I need more evidence?
What kind of lunacy is that? Follow the news more closely if you want to see it.
It's not up to me to prove anything when I say I don't necessarily believe
anything.

What is your argument, anyway? Damn.

-----


its like this top...if your gonna jump in and hint that the story quoting josh as saying he was late for the dance is not reliable because of who wrote it...than offer up something other than your biased opinion that your righht

say like a public retraction from woody saying he lied about peter kings quote...or a statemant from king himself saying he never said that

until that time :rolleyes:

arapaho2
07-22-2010, 11:52 AM
what views?? I don't have a view in this case!!

Now you tell me what views you are talking about!

-----


prozact is your friend top:listen:

your view that the article i showed proving jr wrong ...was crap because woody wrote it....your half veild downplay didnt go unnoticed

topscribe
07-22-2010, 11:52 AM
its like this top...if your gonna jump in and hint that the story quoting josh as saying he was late for the dance is not reliable because of who wrote it...than offer up something other than your biased opinion that your righht

say like a public retraction from woody saying he lied about peter kings quote...or a statemant from king himself saying he never said that

until that time :rolleyes:

What biased opinion? You tell me what my opinion is!

Because I did not give one except that I do not necessarily believe it!


-----

T.K.O.
07-22-2010, 11:54 AM
You'll have to show me the links where they said no. Most of the reports ive seen on this has them taking calls and then pursuing the offer made only to be "late to the dance". It was only after the trade to KC that McD and company said that Jay was their QB.

i think North nailed it.
you see it was after mcD was called that he persued the idea of a trade (that is what he said all along)
it was after he could'nt get cassel that he said Jay is our qb ,
this timeline is alot different than some have tried to pass as truthiness:D

topscribe
07-22-2010, 11:56 AM
prozact is your friend top:listen:

your view that the article i showed proving jr wrong ...was crap because woody wrote it....your half veild downplay didnt go unnoticed

I said I don't necessarily believe it because Woody wrote it. I stand by that.
Now, if you infer some kind of biased opinion from that, then I question your I.Q.

-----

topscribe
07-22-2010, 11:57 AM
i think North nailed it.
you see it was after mcD was called that he persued the idea of a trade (that is what he said all along)
it was after he could'nt get cassel that he said Jay is our qb ,
this timeline is alot different than some have tried to pass as truthiness:D

The truth is, nobody knows the actual truth. There are too many conflicting stories.

That is my biased opinion . . . :coffee:

-----

T.K.O.
07-22-2010, 12:02 PM
The truth is, nobody knows the actual truth. There are too many conflicting stories.

That is my biased opinion . . . :coffee:

-----

and more important.....who cares:confused:
coaches have been wheeling and dealing players behind closed doors since the league began,and will continue to do so.
and last but not least....the thread title is "Why The 2010 Broncos Will Be Better Than The 2009 Broncos"......i fail to see what jay cutler has to do with that in any way?:rolleyes:

topscribe
07-22-2010, 12:04 PM
and more important.....who cares:confused:
coaches have been wheeling and dealing players behind closed doors since the league began,and will continue to do so.
and last but not least....the thread title is "Why The 2010 Broncos Will Be Better Than The 2009 Broncos"......i fail to see what jay cutler has to do with that in any way?:rolleyes:

I believe about ˝ of the thread has been about me.

I, too, would like to get back on topic . . .

-----

Ravage!!!
07-22-2010, 12:05 PM
and more important.....who cares:confused:
coaches have been wheeling and dealing players behind closed doors since the league began,and will continue to do so.
and last but not least....the thread title is "Why The 2010 Broncos Will Be Better Than The 2009 Broncos"......i fail to see what jay cutler has to do with that in any way?:rolleyes:

Right.. which I think is how McD made a rookie mistake. He felt that trading away a pro-bowl, 24 yrd old, 3rd year QB would stay behind closed doors... or.. the deal would get done before anyone heard of it.

topscribe
07-22-2010, 12:05 PM
:focus:

-----

Tempus Fugit
07-22-2010, 12:19 PM
And once again, this topic has needlessly been brought up again. So, from the very Peter King piece that talks about the trade talks with the Patriots....

What's AGAIN being ignored:


"This was a non-issue until Thursday [Feb. 26],'' McDaniels said. "There was obviously a scenario where teams figured we'd be interested in Matt Cassel, because I'd coached him in New England. When someone calls, I'm going to consider it, because that's my job.''

Cutler believes the Broncos were much more interested in trading him and signing Cassel than they've said. I asked McDaniels if he'd been interested in Cassel before the contact by the two teams at the combine, going back to when he knew Cassel might be on the market and available in trade from the Patriots. "No, that's totally untrue,'' he said.

Rhttp://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/peter_king/03/15/union/index.html

As has been noted, time and again, it was not the Broncos initiating talks. It was other teams coming to the Broncos. If you're going to cite to Peter King, cite it all.

topscribe
07-22-2010, 12:21 PM
And once again, this topic has needlessly been brought up again. So, from the very Peter King piece that talks about the trade talks with the Patriots....

What's AGAIN being ignored:



Rhttp://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/peter_king/03/15/union/index.html

As has been noted, time and again, it was not the Broncos initiating talks. It was other teams coming to the Broncos. If you're going to cite to Peter King, cite it all.

. . . And that is why I hate third-hand information.

Especially from the likes of Woody . . .

-----

Lonestar
07-22-2010, 12:53 PM
So did we get that tanturm out of our system yet.

No one here was in the room when the calls came in.

Josh did not try and trade jay a week after getting here as Jhil was trying to insinuate.

Now are we clear in that?

:focus:

Why are we going to be better.

More time in the scheme.

Better players coming in ESPCIALLY DL transfusion.

Interesting Draft choices to replace or reinforce players.

Youth of Offense

Rebuilding an OLINE that has needed it for almost a decade. (as Redzone perfomance proves).

One more year exprience in playbook for QB as well as SIMMS is gone.
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