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WARHORSE
07-12-2010, 03:00 PM
Everyone in sports keeps talking about how Cutler is a franchise QB and Orton is not. What, pray tell, is this based on?

Speaking for myself, the abilities of Cutler in my eyes dwarf Ortons. Physical abilities that is. As a person who was absolutely stunned by the offseason developments of last year in Denver which ultimately peaked with the trading of Cutler, I have a different view this year.

Is it the 'potential' of Cutler that makes someone say 'franchise' when talking about this kid or actual field production and accomplishments?

His physical ability will mesmerize you like a cobra swaying its prey to hypnotic paralysis.

Meanwhile, Kyle Orton is a scrub. Cant do it. Cant get it done. Doesnt have the skills. Cant make the downfield throw. Is immobile. Yada. Yada. Yada.

Cutler will be going into his fifth year while Orton his sixth.


But lets look at last year, each of these guys first year with their new team.

Cutler-
3666 yards
60.5 completion percentage
6.61 yards per attempt
76.8 QB rating
27 Touchdowns vs 26 Intercetions

7 wins vs 9 losses

Orton-
3802 yards
62.1 completion percentage
7.3 yards per attempt
86.8 QB rating
21 touchdowns vs 12 Interceptions

8 wins vs 8 losses

Orton missed almost a full game in total due to his injury against the Redskins. Not to mention his following game against the Chargers was on a swollen ankle which hurt his production big time. Couple of notes on that Skins game....Orton had passed for 195 yards and two TDs in the first half before he got injured............I think that not only would have affected his QB stats on the year, but also his win/loss mark. Projected over the entire game, thats 390 yds and 4 TDs.

51.4 is the lowest completion percentage posted last year by Orton. That was in his second game. He had five games in which his completion percentage dipped below 60%.

Cutler meanwhile had seven games of below 60% completion percentage, along with three games in which he only completed 47, 47 and 37 percent of his passes. Thats horrible.

Meanwhile, Kyle Orton took that same Chicago team to 9 wins the year before, including playing on an injured ankle for the last 6 games or so.

Orton also was playing through an injured finger in the first couple of games.

Cutler was injury free.

Look at the teams played.

Orton played the tougher schedule.



There are alot more comparisons that can be made, and I will leave that up to discussion. But looking at last year, one has to really wonder why Cutler is rated 'franchise' QB.

Cutler will now be going into a new system.

Mike Martz is the architect.

Most interesting part of that thought to me? How is Cutler going to respond when Martz........perfectionist that he is.....drills Cutler for making mistakes?

My thought is, Cutler will have a mature, calm, peacable reaction in which he will be totally responsible for his play.:coffee:

Yeah right.

underrated29
07-12-2010, 03:08 PM
As for me, the main thing between the two (physical aside). Is if the game is on the line and we are on our own 2. I want the ball in Jays hands. He has the drive or whatever you want to call it to march us down the field and win.

PS- I also see the whole martz thing and how jay responds in the same light as tebows throwing motion. I big azz mountain from a molehill. Jay whined because he thinks he is the shiznit, not because people got in his face for coaching.

T.K.O.
07-12-2010, 03:14 PM
i like the broncos qb better:D:salute:

topscribe
07-12-2010, 03:16 PM
As for me, the main thing between the two (physical aside). Is if the game is on the line and we are on our own 2. I want the ball in Jays hands. He has the drive or whatever you want to call it to march us down the field and win.

PS- I also see the whole martz thing and how jay responds in the same light as tebows throwing motion. I big azz mountain from a molehill. Jay whined because he thinks he is the shiznit, not because people got in his face for coaching.

Certainly, Cutler has the physical ability to do so, no question.

But before anyone says Orton does not have that, please refer to the NE game
last year and the Detroit-Chicago game the year before . . .

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Softskull
07-12-2010, 03:18 PM
His physical ability will mesmerize you like a cobra swaying its prey to hypnotic paralysis.

Warhorse, you're sadistic! You've started one of those "no he didn't---yes he did" threads. I can't wait till training camp.

topscribe
07-12-2010, 03:19 PM
Warhorse, you're sadistic! You've started one of those "no he didn't---yes he did" threads. I can't wait till training camp.

Why do you think they call him Warhorse? :D

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GEM
07-12-2010, 03:20 PM
I ******* hate Cutler with a iron clad passion.

With that said, I'd take him any day of the week and twice on Tuesdays over the "fainting goat" Orton.

topscribe
07-12-2010, 03:21 PM
I ******* hate Cutler with a iron clad passion.


I talked to him just last week. He has a big crush on you . . . :D

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GEM
07-12-2010, 03:22 PM
I talked to him just last week. He has a big crush on you . . . :D

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:puke: I have enough kids in my life....a 25 year old crybaby would just give me a headache. :lol:

topscribe
07-12-2010, 03:25 PM
:puke: I have enough kids in my life....a 25 year old crybaby would just give me a headache. :lol:

Well now, this kind of news might ruin Jay's whole season.

It might cause him to start throwing more interceptions . . .

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underrated29
07-12-2010, 03:26 PM
Well now, this kind of news might ruin Jay's whole season.

It might cause him to start throwing more interceptions . . .

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Not unless GEM lives in the red zone.

topscribe
07-12-2010, 03:33 PM
Not unless GEM lives in the red zone.

Hey, GEM could be anywhere in the stadium, and it might mess up the QB's day . . .

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Northman
07-12-2010, 03:38 PM
There are any number of reasons really.

1) first and foremost it is where they were drafted. Jay was way more valuable as far as the league was concerned when he came out of college.

2) In 08', Orton had the #14th ranked offense (points scored) and the #16th ranked defense (points allowed). Cutler, had the #16th ranked offense (points scored) and the #30th defense (points allowed). So while both offenses were average in the red zone Cutler had a far worse defense in his last year in Denver.

When you go into the 09' season Orton had the 20th ranked offense and the 12th ranked defense when all was said and done. Cutler had the 19th ranked offense with the 21st ranked defense. So in two years Cutler has had the misfortune of not having a top 15 ranked defense to even work with.

3) This is probably the biggest are of importance some of which Underrated brought up and that is 3rd down conversions. I brought these numbers up in another thread somewhere. But in 08' Denver was 3rd in 3rd down conversions while Denver in 09' was 22nd. If your judging the QB's than you really cant make excuses as far as lines, etc. The QB leads the team and although Jay's stats on 3rd down dropped to 18th in 09' many would say he had hardly any receivers to throw too and a worse Oline than Denver.

Thow in other issues such as the offensive cordinator who was cut loose in Chicago in favor of Martz coming in. Meanwhile, Denver supposedly has a OC who is a great game caller but we still were way worse on offense despite the great individual numbers by Orton. And all these were the same players from the year before with Cutler when the offense was much better.

At the end of the day, when you look at what each Qb has to offer its almost night and day. One thing that Warhorse brought up was Orton's injuries. Well, this has been something that has plagued Orton for a while. Meanwhile, Cutler has been able to stay healthy which is a big must for any organization or team. Warhorse has also given a nod to Cutler's overall talent which also cant be denied. Again, in most cases when the chips are down a franchise would feel far more comfortable having Jay back there than Kyle. 3rd down conversions are very important when controlling clock and moving the ball when you need to.

Right now despite the fantastic attitude and character of Orton he just cant be relied upon to pick up the slack when the chips fall down. He is the perfect example of a guy who needs to be in a Trent Dilfer type situation where the defense is top 5 at the very minimum. Jay though, has mobility and can at times make the plays necessary to win ballgames. The problem for Cutler at this time is his mechanics and attitude. Chicago, feeling that Orton WASNT the answer and that Cutler would get better and had a more promising future took the chance and traded for him. Any commentator in the NFL says the same things.

GEM
07-12-2010, 03:39 PM
Hey, GEM could be anywhere in the stadium, and it might mess up the QB's day . . .

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Maybe that's what I could do with my 2 Cutler jerseys....wear it to a Bears game and beg him to come back. :laugh: Stupid douchenozzle. I'd probably puke putting the jersey on. :laugh:

T.K.O.
07-12-2010, 03:44 PM
I ******* hate Cutler with a iron clad passion.

With that said, I'd take him any day of the week and twice on Tuesdays over the "fainting goat" Orton.

why ? does he throw fewer interceptions on tuedays ?
if so maybe the nfl could schedule a few tuesday games to boost his stats or get him above .500:laugh::salute:
all in good fun,please dont flame out on me guys....i used to like cutler.....but now he's a bear,and i don't like the bears;)

topscribe
07-12-2010, 03:46 PM
Thing about it is, it seems so many are pointing to Jay's physical skills. His
physical skills are immense, make no mistake about it. But physical skills have to
be backed up by what is between the ears. For instance, Jeff George had far
greater physical skills than Joe Montana. Who, pray tell, is the HOFer?

(And please, to whom this may concern, do not be so shallow as to think I just
compared Orton to Montana. Please understand my point.)

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Tned
07-12-2010, 03:49 PM
Scanning the thread quickly. Two points.

First, Shanahan got in Cutler's face plenty of times on the sideline and it was never a problem. I'm not really sure where this fiction (that he can't handle criticism) comes from, but it has entrenched itself among Broncos fans.

Second, while Cutler struggled big time last year, in the offseason Broncos fans cheering his departure talked about how he couldn't be trusted in the red zone -- how he was a RZ turnover machine. This came up early last season on Twitter and Frank Schwab of Colorado Springs Gazette pointed out how while it was often stated by fans, it wasn't based in fact. During his time with the Broncos, Cutler was something like 37-4 (TD's/INT) in the red zone (going by memory, but that's close).

That's not to say he didn't have some bad INTs when he tried to force the ball in, but it wasn't usually in the RZ as many fans claimed.

Tned
07-12-2010, 03:50 PM
Thing about it is, it seems so many are pointing to Jay's physical skills. His
physical skills are immense, make no mistake about it. But physical skills have to
be backed up by what is between the ears. For instance, Jeff George had far
greater physical skills than Joe Montana. Who, pray tell, is the HOFer?

(And please, to whom this may concern, do not be so shallow as to think I just
compared Orton to Montana. Please understand my point.)

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No, it appeared to be the standar Cutler is the next Jeff George comparison.

At this point, we don't know if at the end of his career he will be more like George or Montana, or somewhere in between.

Tempus Fugit
07-12-2010, 03:51 PM
Might as well sign Jeff George. After all, he's more physically talented than both Cutler and Orton.


Edit: I see Tned mentioned Mr. George before I did.

T.K.O.
07-12-2010, 03:53 PM
At this point, we don't know if at the end of his career he will be more like George or Montana, or somewhere in between.

seeing that both have about the same # of games under their belts....the same could be said of orton

topscribe
07-12-2010, 03:53 PM
No, it appeared to be the standar Cutler is the next Jeff George comparison.

At this point, we don't know if at the end of his career he will be more like George or Montana, or somewhere in between.

Personally, I still like Cutler. If he could just get himself straightened out upstairs,
he could play himself right into the HOF. I really believe that.

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topscribe
07-12-2010, 03:55 PM
Might as well sign Jeff George. After all, he's more physically talented than both Cutler and Orton.


Edit: I see Tned mentioned Mr. George before I did.

Nope, not anywhere near Cutler, from my perspective. Physically.

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broncophan
07-12-2010, 04:03 PM
Cutler vs. Orton....................Orton wants to be a bronco.......Cutler does not.
I hope Cutler continues to fail....as he did last year......and hope Orton continues to give the broncos chances to win games....like he did, for the most part last year........for that alone.......I would take Orton over Cutler any day.

topscribe
07-12-2010, 04:07 PM
BTW, War, Orton was 8-7, not 8-8. Just a little technicality. :)

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Lonestar
07-12-2010, 04:09 PM
Everyone in sports keeps talking about how Cutler is a franchise QB and Orton is not. What, pray tell, is this based on?

Speaking for myself, the abilities of Cutler in my eyes dwarf Ortons. Physical abilities that is. As a person who was absolutely stunned by the offseason developments of last year in Denver which ultimately peaked with the trading of Cutler, I have a different view this year.

Is it the 'potential' of Cutler that makes someone say 'franchise' when talking about this kid or actual field production and accomplishments?

His physical ability will mesmerize you like a cobra swaying its prey to hypnotic paralysis.

Meanwhile, Kyle Orton is a scrub. Cant do it. Cant get it done. Doesnt have the skills. Cant make the downfield throw. Is immobile. Yada. Yada. Yada.

Cutler will be going into his fifth year while Orton his sixth.


But lets look at last year, each of these guys first year with their new team.

Cutler-
3666 yards
60.5 completion percentage
6.61 yards per attempt
76.8 QB rating
27 Touchdowns vs 26 Intercetions

7 wins vs 9 losses

Orton-
3802 yards
62.1 completion percentage
7.3 yards per attempt
86.8 QB rating
21 touchdowns vs 12 Interceptions

8 wins vs 8 losses

Orton missed almost a full game in total due to his injury against the Redskins. Not to mention his following game against the Chargers was on a swollen ankle which hurt his production big time. Couple of notes on that Skins game....Orton had passed for 195 yards and two TDs in the first half before he got injured............I think that not only would have affected his QB stats on the year, but also his win/loss mark. Projected over the entire game, thats 390 yds and 4 TDs.

51.4 is the lowest completion percentage posted last year by Orton. That was in his second game. He had five games in which his completion percentage dipped below 60%.

Cutler meanwhile had seven games of below 60% completion percentage, along with three games in which he only completed 47, 47 and 37 percent of his passes. Thats horrible.

Meanwhile, Kyle Orton took that same Chicago team to 9 wins the year before, including playing on an injured ankle for the last 6 games or so.

Orton also was playing through an injured finger in the first couple of games.

Cutler was injury free.

Look at the teams played.

Orton played the tougher schedule.



There are alot more comparisons that can be made, and I will leave that up to discussion. But looking at last year, one has to really wonder why Cutler is rated 'franchise' QB.

Cutler will now be going into a new system.

Mike Martz is the architect.

Most interesting part of that thought to me? How is Cutler going to respond when Martz........perfectionist that he is.....drills Cutler for making mistakes?

My thought is, Cutler will have a mature, calm, peacable reaction in which he will be totally responsible for his play.:coffee:

Yeah right.


Great logical post.

but you see it boils down to Orton was not a top QB the year he was drafted and jay supposedly was, he has a rocket arm and therefore he is the promised one.

SO many fans invested in him so until he completes hid Jeff George routine they will indeed believe that he is the chosen one and last year was an anomaly, and here is were the excuses kick in he had a lousy OC, lousy, OL, lousy group of WR's, his defense stunk the RB's, yada yada yada.

But see it is ok to give him a pass and not Orton who other than the OC part well they were about the same and sure BM had a 100 catches, but really how much does that count.

Is Orton a FQB maybe not but IMHO neither is jay, he is the next Jeff GEorge an overall loser since HS.

titan
07-12-2010, 04:12 PM
Cutler has the most physical skills of any bronco qb I've seen not named Elway (and I've been watching bronco qb's since the late 60's). Morton could rival Cutler with his arm but not in mobility. Cutler was a turnover machine last year but he did look better towards the end of the year (with a big Monday night win over the Vikings) and I'm curious what he'll do with Martz as his offensive coordinator.

Orton reminds me of Steve Deberg, who they used to say "is just good enough to get you beat" A very serviceable qb who has his moments but is not the long term answer. Orton doesn't have the mobility or power arm of Cutler.

I was rooting against Cutler last year with a first pick in round 1 at stake for the broncos based on the bears finish. With that out of the way I still wouldn't mind seeing Cutler fail with his attitude, but I have a feeling 2010 will be a much better year for Jay. Orton will be the broncos starter and I expect he'll have a season similar to last year - decent numbers but at the end of the day the broncos will still be 8-8 or worse. I hope I am wrong.

Northman
07-12-2010, 04:15 PM
Cutler has the most physical skills of any bronco qb I've seen not named Elway (and I've been watching bronco qb's since the late 60's). Morton could rival Cutler with his arm but not in mobility. Cutler was a turnover machine last year but he did look better towards the end of the year (with a big Monday night win over the Vikings) and I'm curious what he'll do with Martz as his offensive coordinator.

Orton reminds me of Steve Deberg, who they used to say "is just good enough to get you beat" A very serviceable qb who has his moments but is not the long term answer. Orton doesn't have the mobility or power arm of Cutler.

I was rooting against Cutler last year with a first pick in round 1 at stake for the broncos based on the bears finish. With that out of the way I still wouldn't mind seeing Cutler fail with his attitude, but I have a feeling 2010 will be a much better year for Jay. Orton will be the broncos starter and I expect he'll have a season similar to last year - decent numbers but at the end of the day the broncos will still be 8-8 or worse. I hope I am wrong.


I agree pretty much with everything you say here except i no longer openly root for Jay to fail. Nor do i root for him to succeed. Ill just be curious if he either grows and matures or if he falls flat on his face. But i dont nearly hate him like i used too. In the end he got what he wanted and we got good compensation for him.

GEM
07-12-2010, 04:18 PM
I agree pretty much with everything you say here except i no longer openly root for Jay to fail. Nor do i root for him to succeed. Ill just be curious if he either grows and matures or if he falls flat on his face. But i dont nearly hate him like i used too. In the end he got what he wanted and we got good compensation for him.

Softie....:-P

:laugh:

Lonestar
07-12-2010, 04:21 PM
Scanning the thread quickly. Two points.

First, Shanahan got in Cutler's face plenty of times on the sideline and it was never a problem. I'm not really sure where this fiction (that he can't handle criticism) comes from, but it has entrenched itself among Broncos fans.

Second, while Cutler struggled big time last year, in the offseason Broncos fans cheering his departure talked about how he couldn't be trusted in the red zone -- how he was a RZ turnover machine. This came up early last season on Twitter and Frank Schwab of Colorado Springs Gazette pointed out how while it was often stated by fans, it wasn't based in fact. During his time with the Broncos, Cutler was something like 37-4 (TD's/INT) in the red zone (going by memory, but that's close).

That's not to say he didn't have some bad INTs when he tried to force the ball in, but it wasn't usually in the RZ as many fans claimed.


Give me a break and how many times did we see him setting on the sidelines pouting because he or someone else did a FUBAR. his spot not eh bench was the one that grease used. no one would go near him to console him or get run off.

The guy is a head case. great when all is good but screw the pooch once and he was done for the day.

Rivers in particular was in his head huge and he alone could guarantee two losses a year if he was still QB here.

topscribe
07-12-2010, 04:21 PM
Cutler has the most physical skills of any bronco qb I've seen not named Elway (and I've been watching bronco qb's since the late 60's). Morton could rival Cutler with his arm but not in mobility. Cutler was a turnover machine last year but he did look better towards the end of the year (with a big Monday night win over the Vikings) and I'm curious what he'll do with Martz as his offensive coordinator.

Orton reminds me of Steve Deberg, who they used to say "is just good enough to get you beat" A very serviceable qb who has his moments but is not the long term answer. Orton doesn't have the mobility or power arm of Cutler.

I was rooting against Cutler last year with a first pick in round 1 at stake for the broncos based on the bears finish. With that out of the way I still wouldn't mind seeing Cutler fail with his attitude, but I have a feeling 2010 will be a much better year for Jay. Orton will be the broncos starter and I expect he'll have a season similar to last year - decent numbers but at the end of the day the broncos will still be 8-8 or worse. I hope I am wrong.

Orton may be "good enough to get you beat," but that sort of belies his
winning record, doesn't it? Anyway, as I mentioned, Orton was 8-7, not 8-8,
and in "the game that got away" (Washington), he likely would have won that
one, had he not been hurt, seeing as how he was playing with a 134.7 QBR to
that point in the game.

In fact, had he not played the last half of the season essentially on one leg,
and the defense had not turned into a bunch of matadores, and the run
blocking deteriorated so badly that defenses lost respect toward it, how many
more games would Orton had won?

Of course, we'll never know that. But I feel comfortable in saying it would
have been better than an 8-8 season for the Broncos.

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HORSEPOWER 56
07-12-2010, 04:24 PM
BTW, War, Orton was 8-7, not 8-8. Just a little technicality. :)

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True, he didn't get credit for the "start" per se (he came in for the 4th possession IIRC?), but he didn't really get the "save" either. Our whole offense mustered a total of what 3 points that game? I know Orton was hurt, but it's not like by entering the game he really gave us a chance to win. It wasn't like when he came in the game was out of reach. Gutsy? Sure. Effective? Not so much. It was especially disheartening seeing as how it was a great day for Moreno statistically (10 carries, 80 yds, 8 ypc avg)

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2009112210/2009/REG11/chargers@broncos/recap

topscribe
07-12-2010, 04:32 PM
True, he didn't get credit for the "start" per se (he came in for the 4th possession IIRC?), but he didn't really get the "save" either. Our whole offense mustered a total of what 3 points that game? I know Orton was hurt, but it's not like by entering the game he really gave us a chance to win. It wasn't like when he came in the game was out of reach. Gutsy? Sure. Effective? Not so much. It was especially disheartening seeing as how it was a great day for Moreno statistically (10 carries, 80 yds, 8 ypc avg)

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2009112210/2009/REG11/chargers@broncos/recap

What are you talking about, "save"? The "save" was up to Simms, not Orton.

BTW, why are you giving me a URL to the Chargers game? The Washington
game is the one in which Orton got hurt, and he already had two TD passes
in the first half before it happened . . .

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topscribe
07-12-2010, 04:38 PM
True, he didn't get credit for the "start" per se (he came in for the 4th possession IIRC?), but he didn't really get the "save" either. Our whole offense mustered a total of what 3 points that game? I know Orton was hurt, but it's not like by entering the game he really gave us a chance to win. It wasn't like when he came in the game was out of reach. Gutsy? Sure. Effective? Not so much. It was especially disheartening seeing as how it was a great day for Moreno statistically (10 carries, 80 yds, 8 ypc avg)

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2009112210/2009/REG11/chargers@broncos/recap


What are you talking about, "save"? The "save" was up to Simms, not Orton.

BTW, why are you giving me a URL to the Chargers game? The Washington
game is the one in which Orton got hurt, and he already had two TD passes
in the first half before it happened . . .

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Oh, I see what you are saying. You are talking about the game following the
Washington game, exactly one week after Orton suffered a high ankle sprain.
So Orton was to play like nothing happened, right?

BTW, weren't there two RZ fumbles in that game?

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Tned
07-12-2010, 04:43 PM
Give me a break and how many times did we see him setting on the sidelines pouting because he or someone else did a FUBAR. his spot not eh bench was the one that grease used. no one would go near him to console him or get run off.

The guy is a head case. great when all is good but screw the pooch once and he was done for the day.

Rivers in particular was in his head huge and he alone could guarantee two losses a year if he was still QB here.

People have a tendency to see what they want in order to make their point. People used to say something similar about Jake. It was BS with Jake, as it was with Jay.

jhildebrand
07-12-2010, 04:45 PM
As for me, the main thing between the two (physical aside). Is if the game is on the line and we are on our own 2. I want the ball in Jays hands. He has the drive or whatever you want to call it to march us down the field and win.

Didn't Orton lead a 98 and 90+ yard drive to beat the Pats? :confused:

I liked Cutler. I soured on him when he played into the drama on the Best Damn a year + after Rivers. It told me he wasn't going to mature. A kid with diabetes who insists on continuing his party ways just reaffirmed it.

Cutler has all the right tools and mechanics but is wrong from the shoulders up. Many question passion for the game. I truly believe that is why we drafted the antithesis of Cutler: Tebow. A guy whose mechanics and arm strength are questionable BUT between the ears he is sound and LOVES the game of football. I will place my bet there. :cool:

TXBRONC
07-12-2010, 04:47 PM
True, he didn't get credit for the "start" per se (he came in for the 4th possession IIRC?), but he didn't really get the "save" either. Our whole offense mustered a total of what 3 points that game? I know Orton was hurt, but it's not like by entering the game he really gave us a chance to win. It wasn't like when he came in the game was out of reach. Gutsy? Sure. Effective? Not so much. It was especially disheartening seeing as how it was a great day for Moreno statistically (10 carries, 80 yds, 8 ypc avg)

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2009112210/2009/REG11/chargers@broncos/recap

Orton played the vast majority of the game against the Chargers.

Lonestar
07-12-2010, 04:48 PM
People have a tendency to see what they want in order to make their point. People used to say something similar about Jake. It was BS with Jake, as it was with Jay.


maybe I missed that game that you must be basing it on but I saw cutler in many a game sulking on the bench by himself.

JUST like griese did, his teammates did not like him and frankly do not remember seeing many glowing articles about jay from his teammates when he left.

HORSEPOWER 56
07-12-2010, 04:54 PM
Oh, I see what you are saying. You are talking about the game following the
Washington game, exactly one week after Orton suffered a high ankle sprain.
So Orton was to play like nothing happened, right?

BTW, weren't there two RZ fumbles in that game?

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Yeah, that's what I was talking about. I know it technically doesn't go against his personal W/L record because he technically didn't start but my real point was that it wouldn't have mattered when you combine the way we played with the way the Sparklers played that day. Had Kyle been perfectly healthy we probably still would've lost. I don't blame you for pointing out 8-7 vice 8-8 as his starting record, but thinking we would've done any better than we did vs Pitt, Bal, Indy, KC, Oak, or Philly especially the way the Sparklers were playing at that time (on a big winning streak - one of the hottest team while we were falling flat weekly). I just look at the 8-8 record and think that maybe had Orton stayed in the Washington game we could've won (nothing was guaranteed because when Orton went down, we were almost score for score), but there was no way we beat SD, with or without him. Frankly, it couldn't have been much worse (32-3) with Simms under center for the whole game.

HORSEPOWER 56
07-12-2010, 05:07 PM
maybe I missed that game that you must be basing it on but I saw cutler in many a game sulking on the bench by himself.

JUST like griese did, his teammates did not like him and frankly do not remember seeing many glowing articles about jay from his teammates when he left.

Maybe he was just mad at himself for not playing well? I really hate to judge what guys are or aren't doing on the sidelines too harshly because unless you're at the game and really just watching the sidelines, you don't get a good picture. I NEVER saw Orton on the sidelines last year doing anything other than talking to McD (about 50% of the time it was the dreaded one-way convo) or sitting by himself on the bench. I never saw one single clip of him trying to fire up the offense, like you see of Brady or Manning, or the team, like Brees does. Does it mean he doesn't do it? No. We just don't see it. I'd love to see KO show some passion and fire sometimes but, IMO, his personality is as unexciting, drab, and conservative as his play on the field. He always seems like he's just "happy to have a job", to me but not any more than that. Show up, punch the clock, you win some - you lose some, etc because that's what I see on the sidelines and during pressers. He never seems emotional.

That's my impression of Kyle. I'm probably completely out to lunch, but that's what I see of his personality much like you just see Cutler was a whiny, sulky, crybaby.

Tned
07-12-2010, 05:09 PM
maybe I missed that game that you must be basing it on but I saw cutler in many a game sulking on the bench by himself.

JUST like griese did, his teammates did not like him and frankly do not remember seeing many glowing articles about jay from his teammates when he left.

Just like Jake gave up? Didn't care about winning? Just thew his pics and went to the sideline without a care in the world about winning?

topscribe
07-12-2010, 05:11 PM
Yeah, that's what I was talking about. I know it technically doesn't go against his personal W/L record because he technically didn't start but my real point was that it wouldn't have mattered when you combine the way we played with the way the Sparklers played that day. Had Kyle been perfectly healthy we probably still would've lost. I don't blame you for pointing out 8-7 vice 8-8 as his starting record, but thinking we would've done any better than we did vs Pitt, Bal, Indy, KC, Oak, or Philly especially the way the Sparklers were playing at that time (on a big winning streak - one of the hottest team while we were falling flat weekly). I just look at the 8-8 record and think that maybe had Orton stayed in the Washington game we could've won (nothing was guaranteed because when Orton went down, we were almost score for score), but there was no way we beat SD, with or without him. Frankly, it couldn't have been much worse (32-3) with Simms under center for the whole game.

HP, you're one of my favorite debaters. Not only do your arguments make
sense, but you will actually salute your "opponents." http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh256/AZDynamics/Smilies/thdrink.gif

Anyway, I have to agree with you about SD. The Broncos and a healthy Orton
would not have won on that day, IMO. The games I'm looking at are Indy,
Oak, and Philly. Denver nearly won in each. What would have happened with
an Orton who had the same velocity, accuracy, and mobility he had before
his injury? I don't know - but I still believe Denver would have been better
than 8-8.

Say Orton was healthy, and the Broncos won the Washington game and one
of those other three: We now would have had a 10-6 season and a playoff
berth. That is how Orton's injury impacted the whole season, IMO.

So some are wondering, then, whether Orton can stay healthy for a whole
season. Well, so am I, at this point. So am I . . .

-----

Lonestar
07-12-2010, 05:14 PM
Maybe he was just mad at himself for not playing well? I really hate to judge what guys are or aren't doing on the sidelines too harshly because unless you're at the game and really just watching the sidelines, you don't get a good picture. I NEVER saw Orton on the sidelines last year doing anything other than talking to McD (about 50% of the time it was the dreaded one-way convo) or sitting by himself on the bench. I never saw one single clip of him trying to fire up the offense, like you see of Brady or Manning, or the team, like Brees does. Does it mean he doesn't do it? No. We just don't see it. I'd love to see KO show some passion and fire sometimes but, IMO, his personality is as unexciting, drab, and conservative as his play on the field. He always seems like he's just "happy to have a job", to me but not any more than that. Show up, punch the clock, you win some - you lose some, etc.

That's my impression of Kyle. I'm probably completely out to lunch, but that's what I see of his personality much like you just see Cutler was a whiny, sulky, crybaby.


so being mad at himself and being out of the game from that point on is OK.

to have a player any player for that matter so high strung that they are beating themselves up on the sidelines because of a play they or another player did not make is not good.

as for KO for Gods sake it was his first year with a crappy oline from about game 7 on well for that matter was not great all year.

While hamilton was on the field it was marginal when he was replaced not long after that Harris went down basically for the year even when he went back in he was not himself.

Ir is rare that you see much emotion out of Manning so is that ok or does Orton have to be a head case flipping out on the sidelines to get your attention and approval.

topscribe
07-12-2010, 05:16 PM
Just like Jake gave up? Didn't care about winning? Just thew his pics and went to the sideline without a care in the world about winning?

Jake was a fine QB when he was on. But that's just it: He was a QB. He was not
a football player. There is a difference. He was in football, but football was
never completely in him.

And when 2006 rolled around, I believe Jake was just burned out. He never really
wanted to play anymore - and the fact that he could not be lured out with any
kind of incentives or to keep having to pay back a few million dollars seems to
bear that out.

Does that make sense?

This is what I fear about Cutler. I see a QB. I don't yet see a football player.

-----

Lonestar
07-12-2010, 05:16 PM
HP, you're one of my favorite debaters. Not only do your arguments make
sense, but you will actually salute your "opponents." http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh256/AZDynamics/Smilies/thdrink.gif

Anyway, I have to agree with you about SD. The Broncos and a healthy Orton
would not have won on that day, IMO. The games I'm looking at are Indy,
Oak, and Philly. Denver nearly won in each. What would have happened with
an Orton who had the same velocity, accuracy, and mobility he had before
his injury? I don't know - but I still believe Denver would have been better
than 8-8.

Say Orton was healthy, and the Broncos won the Washington game and one
of those other three: We now would have had a 10-6 season and a playoff
berth. That is how Orton's injury impacted the whole season, IMO.

So some are wondering, then, whether Orton can stay healthy for a whole
season. Well, so am I, at this point. So am I . . .

-----

well partner there you go thinking again instead of the typical whining here .. good logical post.

HORSEPOWER 56
07-12-2010, 05:24 PM
HP, you're one of my favorite debaters. Not only do your arguments make
sense, but you will actually salute your "opponents." http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh256/AZDynamics/Smilies/thdrink.gif

Anyway, I have to agree with you about SD. The Broncos and a healthy Orton
would not have won on that day, IMO. The games I'm looking at are Indy,
Oak, and Philly. Denver nearly won in each. What would have happened with
an Orton who had the same velocity, accuracy, and mobility he had before
his injury? I don't know - but I still believe Denver would have been better
than 8-8.

Say Orton was healthy, and the Broncos won the Washington game and one
of those other three: We now would have had a 10-6 season and a playoff
berth. That is how Orton's injury impacted the whole season, IMO.

So some are wondering, then, whether Orton can stay healthy for a whole
season. Well, so am I, at this point. So am I . . .

-----

I hear ya! Lots of folks see me as a big Orton "hater" and with some of the stuff I've posted in the past, I guess some of it's warranted. Maybe it's because they only part of the season I witnessed was from the bye week on. When I returned from deployment, we were 6-0 and then went 2-8. Orton took a lot of the brunt of my frustration (warranted or not) because the offense was struggling and well, he leads the offense. Just like Elway, Griese, Plummer, and Cutler did when they played poorly... I'm an "equal opportunity criticizer".

I've gotten to go back and watch pretty much every game I missed and while Kyle rarely played "poorly" (well Pittsburgh, Baltimore, and KC games were UGLY) he never had me going, "wow that guy is good!", either. But I also couldn't watch those 6-0 games with the same passion as the 2-8 games because i already knew the outcome. I'm willing to see what he's got this year (not like I have a choice) and I'm really hoping he can stay healthy, but I'm trying to stay off the bash Orton bandwagon. I'm just tired of talking about it. he's either going to lead us to the playoffs, or he's not. Right now, with the guys behind him and his current contract situation, i don't think it matters how he plays this year when it comes to his future as a Bronco. In my own selfishness I'm kind of excited by that, but I do feel for Kyle who I really do think wants to be here and wants to be a Bronco long term.

titan
07-12-2010, 05:27 PM
Good point - the broncos would have won the Washington game had Orton not been hurt. However part of the problem with orton as I see it is that he's fragile and he's not mobile; he has a tendency to get hurt. He missed games for the Bears, too, the previous season due to injury.

I think if you put Orton on the Minnesota Vikings right now he could win a Super Bowl. He could be a Super Bowl winning qb in the mold of Trent Dilfer (ravens), Mark Rypien (Skins), Brad Johnson (Bucs). Maybe my "just good enough to get you beat" judgment is too harsh for Orton, but still I think Orton is the type of qb who can only win a championship with a very strong supporting cast. He is not going to be the difference maker himself.


Orton may be "good enough to get you beat," but that sort of belies his
winning record, doesn't it? Anyway, as I mentioned, Orton was 8-7, not 8-8,
and in "the game that got away" (Washington), he likely would have won that
one, had he not been hurt, seeing as how he was playing with a 134.7 QBR to
that point in the game.

In fact, had he not played the last half of the season essentially on one leg,
and the defense had not turned into a bunch of matadores, and the run
blocking deteriorated so badly that defenses lost respect toward it, how many
more games would Orton had won?

Of course, we'll never know that. But I feel comfortable in saying it would
have been better than an 8-8 season for the Broncos.

-----

Tempus Fugit
07-12-2010, 05:33 PM
Good point - the broncos would have won the Washington game had Orton not been hurt. However part of the problem with orton as I see it is that he's fragile and he's not mobile; he has a tendency to get hurt. He missed games for the Bears, too, the previous season due to injury.

I think if you put Orton on the Minnesota Vikings right now he could win a Super Bowl. He could be a Super Bowl winning qb in the mold of Trent Dilfer (ravens), Mark Rypien (Skins), Brad Johnson (Bucs). Maybe my "just good enough to get you beat" judgment is too harsh for Orton, but still I think Orton is the type of qb who can only win a championship with a very strong supporting cast. He is not going to be the difference maker himself.

What quarterbacks have proven that they can win a championship without a very strong supporting cast?

HORSEPOWER 56
07-12-2010, 05:39 PM
so being mad at himself and being out of the game from that point on is OK.

to have a player any player for that matter so high strung that they are beating themselves up on the sidelines because of a play they or another player did not make is not good.

as for KO for Gods sake it was his first year with a crappy oline from about game 7 on well for that matter was not great all year.

While hamilton was on the field it was marginal when he was replaced not long after that Harris went down basically for the year even when he went back in he was not himself.

Ir is rare that you see much emotion out of Manning so is that ok or does Orton have to be a head case flipping out on the sidelines to get your attention and approval.

It's not really about my approval. To get everyone's approval, the best way is to win games (as McDaniels said to him, "it's not about 'my bad' anymore, just make the play" or something to that effect). He can be humble and quiet and be a winner, but he can't be quiet and humble and be a loser because then he just looks apathetic. Have you ever seen Kyle (other than the occasional TD celebration fist pump or high five) really show emotion, either on the sidelines or during a press conference? I haven't. That's all I'm saying.

I would expect a guy who wants to be the best, playing for a team that wants to be the best, get animated and emotional. Personally, I'd prefer if our HC and QB switched places. I'd rather see Orton fist pumping and yelling at the O-line about winning a "motherfudging game" (to paraphrase) and have McDaniels be cool, calm, and act like he's been there before - both good and bad times.

HORSEPOWER 56
07-12-2010, 05:49 PM
Good point - the broncos would have won the Washington game had Orton not been hurt.

I still think that's a pretty big assumption. The score was TIED 14-14 when Orton got hurt resulting in a FG that put us up 17-14 at the half. Both of our scores came off of deep balls where the defense didn't even pretend to try to cover Marshall - both were BUSTED PLAYS.

We still wouldn't have been able to stop their run game, with or without Kyle, and although the likely hood that we would've been held completely scoreless in the second half is small, there's no guarantee that we would've been able to put up the 10 points to tie or 11 or more to win.

I still wouldn't just spot us that game with Orton in. It's not like we were blowing them out when he went down.

topscribe
07-12-2010, 05:58 PM
Good point - the broncos would have won the Washington game had Orton not been hurt. However part of the problem with orton as I see it is that he's fragile and he's not mobile; he has a tendency to get hurt. He missed games for the Bears, too, the previous season due to injury.

I think if you put Orton on the Minnesota Vikings right now he could win a Super Bowl. He could be a Super Bowl winning qb in the mold of Trent Dilfer (ravens), Mark Rypien (Skins), Brad Johnson (Bucs). Maybe my "just good enough to get you beat" judgment is too harsh for Orton, but still I think Orton is the type of qb who can only win a championship with a very strong supporting cast. He is not going to be the difference maker himself.

Good, logical argument. That may well be true. But now you're talking about an
Elway-type of player, one who can hoist a team onto his back and carry it.
(Madden once said of Elway, "He is the closest thing to a one-man gang I
have ever seen.") But there just aren't many Elways. Maybe Peyton comes
close?

I'm not sure we have than in Tebow. There are just too many questions
surrounding him. Odds are, we don't, despite all the adulation being thrown
his way.

Cutler could do it, if he had it all together above the neck.

But there is not a QB in sight, IMO, with whom the Broncos could win the SB
without a very strong supporting cast. So you're right there . . .

-----

Tempus Fugit
07-12-2010, 06:04 PM
Good, logical argument. That may well be true. But now you're talking about an
Elway-type of player, one who can hoist a team onto his back and carry it.
(Madden once said of Elway, "He is the closest thing to a one-man gang I
have ever seen.") But there just aren't many Elways. Maybe Peyton comes
close?

Neither Elway nor Manning won without a very strong supporting cast. The closest thing I can really find about a QB putting a lesser team on his shoulders would be Brady in 2001, and that team had a lot more talent than most give it credit for.

topscribe
07-12-2010, 06:22 PM
Neither Elway nor Manning won without a very strong supporting cast. The closest thing I can really find about a QB putting a lesser team on his shoulders would be Brady in 2001, and that team had a lot more talent than most give it credit for.

I don't know how old you are, but the Broncos' teams in the '80s had no
business in the Super Bowl, but for Elway. As Madden said, those were not good
teams Elway took there. Raiders HOF cornerback Mike Haynes said, "Without
Elway, the Broncos are 8-8."

I remember those years well. There were not all that many playmakers on those
teams, and the ones who looked like playmakers, Elway made them so to a
great extent.

There comes occasionally an athlete who can just will his team to win. Jordan
in basketball. Koufax in baseball. Gretzky in hockey. Elway in football . . .

-----

Tempus Fugit
07-12-2010, 06:38 PM
I don't know how old you are, but the Broncos' teams in the '80s had no
business in the Super Bowl, but for Elway. As Madden said, those were not good
teams Elway took there. Raiders HOF cornerback Mike Haynes said, "Without
Elway, the Broncos are 8-8."

I remember those years well. There were not all that many playmakers on those
teams, and the ones who looked like playmakers, Elway made them so to a
great extent.

There comes occasionally an athlete who can just will his team to win. Jordan
in basketball. Koufax in baseball. Gretzky in hockey. Elway in football . . .

-----

The quote I have been responding to on this topic noted winning it, not just getting there.


but still I think Orton is the type of qb who can only win a championship with a very strong supporting cast.

I could talk about the talent level of those Broncos teams, or I could point out how weak the AFC was in the mid 80's to early 90's, but those Broncos didn't make the cut of winning for it to apply.

topscribe
07-12-2010, 06:43 PM
The quote I have been responding to on this topic noted winning it, not just getting there.



I could talk about the talent level of those Broncos teams, or I could point out how weak the AFC was in the mid 80's to early 90's, but those Broncos didn't make the cut of winning for it to apply.

Okay. I'm not going to get into a "yes it is, no it isn't" argument. So enough of
Elway for now.

The topic is Cutler and/or Orton. And this part of the discussion came from the
comment that Orton won't win without a strong supporting cast. So let's back
up and proceed from there . . .

:focus:

-----

EMB6903
07-12-2010, 07:25 PM
Cutler is better at every aspect of the quarterback position then Orton, yes even Decision making.

I remember the OP saying the same thing about a year ago. Now its a debate because Orton is a Bronco and Cutler isnt?

:::::::shaking head::::::::

BroncoJoe
07-12-2010, 07:31 PM
Another thread about Cutler.

:yawn:

WARHORSE
07-12-2010, 07:34 PM
Cutler is better at every aspect of the quarterback position then Orton, yes even Decision making.




Especially INT throwing.

Over twice as good as Orton at that aspect.:coffee:

EMB6903
07-12-2010, 07:36 PM
Especially INT throwing.

Over twice as good as Orton at that aspect.:coffee:

A year ago you thought Cutler was easily a top 3 QB.. now that hes traded and had 1 bad year your mind changed?

Amateurs... gotta love em'

WARHORSE
07-12-2010, 07:43 PM
Lots of thoughts on this.


However, when all is said and done, Orton played better than Cutler last year.

The whole cue is, the thread is about whether Cutler truly is a franchise QB.

The argument is not being made that Orton is a franchise QB at this point in his career, but that Cutler is not.

In other words, just exactly what did we get two first round draft picks for, as well as a third, and threw in a QB who is outplaying the guy we traded away?


And yet here everyone is talking about what an ignorant bastage McD is for being willing to trade a QB who had lots of potential, but up to that point hadnt done anything.

Still hasnt.

Remember, Orton was the deal breaker between us dealing with the Redskins and us dealing with Chicago. McD didnt want Campbell. He wanted Orton.



Cutler is nothing more than an INCONSISTENT QB with lots of dazzling abiltity.

Can he become more? Possibly.

Has he? No.


If Cutler were our QB last year, would we have won more games?

The answer simply cant be yes.

:coffee:

silkamilkamonico
07-12-2010, 07:43 PM
A year ago you thought Cutler was easily a top 3 QB.. now that hes traded and had 1 bad year your mind changed?

Amateurs... gotta love em'

I thought Cutler was on the brink of a major breakthrough, and had a chance to prove himself in another system with different players. The only thing he proved is that he got even worse at throwing interceptions, especially in the redzone.

Argue anything you want about Cutler and his "potential", but you can't argue against the fact of how bad he is in the redzone.

And yes, Orton is better than Cutler in the redzone. You can't argue against that either.

And I like Cutler better than Orton.

Tempus Fugit
07-12-2010, 07:49 PM
Cutler is better at every aspect of the quarterback position then Orton, yes even Decision making.

This is not supported by the evidence.

WARHORSE
07-12-2010, 07:51 PM
A year ago you thought Cutler was easily a top 3 QB.. now that hes traded and had 1 bad year your mind changed?

Amateurs... gotta love em'


Easily a top three QB? Youre making stuff up.

Thats the mark of an amateur, btw, since youre pointing them out today.:coffee:

Cutler has the same thing this year as he did last year: tons of potential.

I would not have traded Cutler based on that potential and thought at the time it was a dumb move. Period.

Cutler did not throw 26 INTs nor anything close to it in his years in Denver though.

So is my mindset different regarding Cutler? You bet it is.

Besides that, as soon as he was traded and wore different colors he was over in my book. Same day.

TXBRONC
07-12-2010, 08:34 PM
Especially INT throwing.

Over twice as good as Orton at that aspect.:coffee:

He also threw more touchdowns and has more attempts throwing the ball.

Tempus Fugit
07-12-2010, 08:42 PM
He also threw more touchdowns and has more attempts throwing the ball.

Cutler career Int% = 3.5
Orton career Int% = 3.0

topscribe
07-12-2010, 09:22 PM
Cutler is better at every aspect of the quarterback position then Orton, yes even Decision making.


Well, certainly not recently. I think it is appropriate to repeat the following:




-

Cutler-
3666 yards
60.5 completion percentage
6.61 yards per attempt
76.8 QB rating
27 Touchdowns vs 26 Intercetions

7 wins vs 9 losses

Orton-
3802 yards
62.1 completion percentage
7.3 yards per attempt
86.8 QB rating
21 touchdowns vs 12 Interceptions

8 wins vs 7 losses

Orton missed almost a full game in total due to his injury against the Redskins. Not to mention his following game against the Chargers was on a swollen ankle which hurt his production big time. Couple of notes on that Skins game....Orton had passed for 195 yards and two TDs in the first half before he got injured............I think that not only would have affected his QB stats on the year, but also his win/loss mark. Projected over the entire game, thats 390 yds and 4 TDs.

51.4 is the lowest completion percentage posted last year by Orton. That was in his second game. He had five games in which his completion percentage dipped below 60%.

Cutler meanwhile had seven games of below 60% completion percentage, along with three games in which he only completed 47, 47 and 37 percent of his passes. Thats horrible.

Meanwhile, Kyle Orton took that same Chicago team to 9 wins the year before, including playing on an injured ankle for the last 6 games or so.

Orton also was playing through an injured finger in the first couple of games.

Cutler was injury free.

Look at the teams played.

Orton played the tougher schedule.



:coffee:


-----

EMB6903
07-12-2010, 09:42 PM
Not too worried about the stat geeks, nor am I wasting my time explaining why Cutler is better.

Its pointless to argue with a homer.

Fact of the matter is there is not 1 GM who would take Orton over Cutler straight up

topscribe
07-12-2010, 09:55 PM
Not too worried about the stat geeks, nor am I wasting my time explaining why Cutler is better.

Its pointless to argue with a homer.

Fact of the matter is there is not 1 GM who would take Orton over Cutler straight up

Typical comeback. Stat geeks. Homers.

Doesn't change the fact that Orton was the better QB last year . . . :coffee:

-----

Tned
07-12-2010, 09:58 PM
Fact of the matter is there is not 1 GM who would take Orton over Cutler straight up

I think some would say /thread after this one.

This pretty much sums it up.

topscribe
07-12-2010, 10:03 PM
I think some would say /thread after this one.

This pretty much sums it up.

Oh, I agree with him there . . . assuming Cutler gets his act together.

But EMB cannot admit - maybe even recognize - the facts staring him in the face.
The fact is, Orton outplayed Cutler last year. Does that mean Orton is a better
QB overall, ultimately? No. But he did outplay him last year. That is a fact.

-----

Tempus Fugit
07-12-2010, 10:10 PM
I think some would say /thread after this one.

This pretty much sums it up.

No, it doesn't.


Cutler is better at every aspect of the quarterback position then Orton, yes even Decision making.

Was his claim. It was clearly wrong on multiple fronts last season, and his specific "shout out" to decision making isn't backed up by the evidence, looking at either just last year or their entire careers.



In other words, you can

/thread

only if you're not looking for legit discussion.

Tned
07-12-2010, 10:17 PM
Oh, I agree with him there . . . assuming Cutler gets his act together.

But EMB cannot admit - maybe even recognize - the facts staring him in the face.
The fact is, Orton outplayed Cutler last year. Does that mean Orton is a better
QB overall, ultimately? No. But he did outplay him last year. That is a fact.

-----

No question that Orton outplayed Cutler last year. That doesn't mean there are 'questions' regarding the short passing/lack of production, which we don't know if was McDaniels' play calling or Orton's always looking short, but Orton clearly had a better season than Cutler.

Tned
07-12-2010, 10:20 PM
No, it doesn't.



Was his claim. It was clearly wrong on multiple fronts last season, and his specific "shout out" to decision making isn't backed up by the evidence, looking at either just last year or their entire careers.



In other words, you can

/thread

only if you're not looking for legit discussion.

The /thread was said in jest. Lighten up. Life is too short to get worked up over the little things.

As to what I was agreeing with, that is that no GM is going to take Orton straight up over Cutler. Even with Cutler's horrible year, there is no indication from the talking heads, ex-GM's, ex-players, etc., that anyone believes that 'long term' Orton is a better QB than Cutler. They still talk of Cutler being a 'franchise QB' (yes, a term we are all sick of by now), which you NEVER hear used to describe Orton.

WARHORSE
07-12-2010, 10:23 PM
He also threw more touchdowns and has more attempts throwing the ball.

True.

Nice to mention his one good stat over Orton....if its even that.
(thought you werent a stat guy?)

Anyway....to list the rest of it:

Cutler threw 555 times. He averaged a touchdown every 20 or so throws. And on the 21st throw, hed throw an interception.

TD- 1 every 20 passes
INT-1 every 21 passes


Orton threw 541 times

TD- 1 every 25.7 passes
INT- 1 every 45 passes



Ahem.:coffee:

silkamilkamonico
07-12-2010, 10:32 PM
This Jay Cutler vs Kyle Orton debate is absurd.

It's comparable to saying who's better, Jay Fiedler or Jon Kitna.

Northman
07-12-2010, 10:33 PM
I think some would say /thread after this one.

This pretty much sums it up.

Yep. At the end of the day that would answer the OP's original question. :lol:

topscribe
07-12-2010, 10:38 PM
No question that Orton outplayed Cutler last year. That doesn't mean there are 'questions' regarding the short passing/lack of production, which we don't know if was McDaniels' play calling or Orton's always looking short, but Orton clearly had a better season than Cutler.


Orton apparently isn't the only one who relies on the short passing game, to wit:


I learned several things about the game and about my own game during my film work, but I was mostly impressed with the patience under fire exhibited by Manning and Brady.

Both of those guys consistently take the underneath routes when they are given to them and don't ever think about going to another route until the defense takes the underneath route away. It amazes me how precise and accurate with the football all six of those guys are, and I can tell you that this was a really beneficial exercise that I feel will make me a better player as my career progresses.

As reported by Matt Ryan in Monday Morning QB (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/writers/matt_ryan/07/11/mmqb.matt.ryan/index.html).


I also am not sure how much of the apparent lack of taking chances on the
deep pass can be attributed to play calling, either, but I do remember Orton
complaining that he would like more of the deep game.

Can he do it? Well, for those who have too much time on their hands can
peruse these and make up their own minds, as I did mine:


http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-videos/09000d5d8157ccd9/Kyle-Orton-Highlight-WK-17-vs-Chiefs-2009

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-videos/09000d5d8157cffa/Kyle-Orton-Highlight-WK-17-vs-Chiefs-2009

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-videos/09000d5d8157d532/Kyle-Orton-Highlight-WK-17-vs-Chiefs-2009

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-videos/09000d5d8157dddd/Kyle-Orton-Highlight-WK-17-vs-Chiefs-2009

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-videos/09000d5d815527af/Kyle-Orton-Highlight-WK-16-vs-Eagles-2009

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-videos/09000d5d815268bf/Kyle-Orton-Highlight-WK-15-vs-Raiders-2009

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-videos/09000d5d81485d3e/Kyle-Orton-Highlight-WK-12-vs-Giants-2009

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-videos/09000d5d81485e78/Kyle-Orton-Highlight-WK-12-vs-Giants-2009

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-videos/09000d5d81485fb5/Kyle-Orton-Highlight-WK-12-vs-Giants-2009

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-videos/09000d5d8146c5d0/Kyle-Orton-Highlight-WK-11-vs-Chargers-2009

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-videos/09000d5d8143d08d/Kyle-Orton-Highlight-WK-10-vs-Redskins-2009

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-videos/09000d5d8143d0af/Kyle-Orton-Highlight-WK-10-vs-Redskins-2009

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-videos/09000d5d8138f65f/Kyle-Orton-Highlight-WK-06-vs-Chargers-2009

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-videos/09000d5d8138f6c6/Kyle-Orton-Highlight-WK-06-vs-Chargers-2009

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-cant-miss-plays/09000d5d813263e0/WK-4-Can-t-Miss-Play-Grand-Marshall

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-fantasy/09000d5d812cb4f0/Kyle-Orton-Highlight-WK-02-vs-Browns-2009

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-fantasy/09000d5d812cc6fa/Kyle-Orton-Highlight-WK-02-vs-Browns-2009

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-fantasy/09000d5d812cca3d/Kyle-Orton-Highlight-WK-02-vs-Browns-2009

http://www.nfl.com/videos/cincinnati-bengals/09000d5d8129c22d/Kyle-Orton-Highlight-WK-01-vs-Bengals-2009

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d80db8b0b/Kyle-Orton-Highlight-WK-17-vs-Texans-2008

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d80d22fea/Kyle-Orton-Highlight-WK-14-vs-Jaguars-2008

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d80d2421f/Kyle-Orton-Highlight-WK-14-vs-Jaguars-2008

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d80cbf7c1/Kyle-Orton-Highlight-WK-12-vs-Rams-2008

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d80b672f9/Kyle-Orton-Highlight-WK-05-vs-Lions-2008

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d80b6768c/Kyle-Orton-Highlight-WK-05-vs-Lions-2008

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d80b677fd/Kyle-Orton-Highlight-WK-05-vs-Lions-2008

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d80b67b0f/Kyle-Orton-Highlight-WK-05-vs-Lions-2008

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d80b0629f/Kyle-Orton-Highlight-WK-03-vs-Buccaneers-2008

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d80aa2733/Kyle-Orton-Highlight-WK-01-vs-Colts-2008

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d80ad2b7a/Kyle-Orton-Highlight-WK-02-vs-Panthers-2008

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d805a03f3/Kyle-Orton-Highlight-WK-17-vs-Saints-2007

-----

topscribe
07-12-2010, 10:44 PM
This Jay Cutler vs Kyle Orton debate is absurd.

It's comparable to saying who's better, Jay Fiedler or Jon Kitna.

Did you know, BTW, that Orton whipped Jon Kitna in a QB Challenge contest -
when Jon was playing professionally and Orton was a high school senior?

P.S. Orton threw the ball 74 yards on that day . . .

-----

Acedude
07-12-2010, 10:49 PM
Jay is in that rare group that has velocity every time he throws. It looks effortless at times for Cutler. He also has touch. A talent like that, you have to think he'll win some titles.

Tempus Fugit
07-12-2010, 10:49 PM
As to what I was agreeing with, that is that no GM is going to take Orton straight up over Cutler. Even with Cutler's horrible year, there is no indication from the talking heads, ex-GM's, ex-players, etc., that anyone believes that 'long term' Orton is a better QB than Cutler. They still talk of Cutler being a 'franchise QB' (yes, a term we are all sick of by now), which you NEVER hear used to describe Orton.

All the "more talented", "franchise", "great arm" crap can really be boiled down to one thing, and one reality:

Orton > Cutler last year, regardless of the opinions regarding talent/potential/etc..., and this year has yet play itself out.

I'm defending a player who deserves defending from a poster because of the claim made. The rest of this thread is just a re-hash of the same old arguments.

topscribe
07-12-2010, 10:51 PM
Jay is in that rare group that has velocity every time he throws. It looks effortless at times for Cutler. He also has touch. A talent like that, you have to think he'll win some titles.

Actually, analysts have talked about the problems Cutler has had with touch.
That is something, they have said, that he needs to work on.

-----

Acedude
07-12-2010, 11:11 PM
Orton is a gamer, we'll see how he does in year two in the sysem. Orton is a gamer, no doubt about it.

I like Orton a lot, I like competitors.

gobroncsnv
07-12-2010, 11:12 PM
If it's third down, and you complete a pass to the other team, does that raise your first down stats?

Lonestar
07-12-2010, 11:16 PM
It's not really about my approval. To get everyone's approval, the best way is to win games (as McDaniels said to him, "it's not about 'my bad' anymore, just make the play" or something to that effect). He can be humble and quiet and be a winner, but he can't be quiet and humble and be a loser because then he just looks apathetic. Have you ever seen Kyle (other than the occasional TD celebration fist pump or high five) really show emotion, either on the sidelines or during a press conference? I haven't. That's all I'm saying.

I would expect a guy who wants to be the best, playing for a team that wants to be the best, get animated and emotional. Personally, I'd prefer if our HC and QB switched places. I'd rather see Orton fist pumping and yelling at the O-line about winning a "motherfudging game" (to paraphrase) and have McDaniels be cool, calm, and act like he's been there before - both good and bad times.

While I'd ratherhave a tad more rah rah stuff from KO. Being professional ois OK also I'm sure his OL and other O players know that he is happy about a great play.

Think it was Barry Sanders that once said to a rookie after the rookie was celebrating a TD.

"Act like you have been there before and act like your going to do it again."

In KOs pressers he always says he has a lot to improve on even if he has has a GREAT game.

That is the kind of guy I'm looking for.
Color me old fashioned but there are VERY few P Mannings on the football field. Someone who rarely makes a mistake.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

Acedude
07-12-2010, 11:26 PM
Actually, analysts have talked about the problems Cutler has had with touch.
That is something, they have said, that he needs to work on.

-----

Jay has all the physical skills, including touch. He played in Denver for 3 years and we saw him drop some nice touch passes to Eddie Royal sometimes. Dude can rifle it in also.

How he hasn't won more, I don't know.

topscribe
07-12-2010, 11:55 PM
Jay has all the physical skills, including touch. He played in Denver for 3 years and we saw him drop some nice touch passes to Eddie Royal sometimes. Dude can rifle it in also.

How he hasn't won more, I don't know.

Yes, I was here, too. For all the games.

I know he has done it at times. I'm only repeating what analysts have said.

-----

Tned
07-13-2010, 12:10 AM
All the "more talented", "franchise", "great arm" crap can really be boiled down to one thing, and one reality:

Orton > Cutler last year, regardless of the opinions regarding talent/potential/etc..., and this year has yet play itself out.

I'm defending a player who deserves defending from a poster because of the claim made. The rest of this thread is just a re-hash of the same old arguments.

If you think Orton needs you to defend him, why don't you direct it to the poster who made the claim? :confused:

As to "last year", as I have said, Orton outplayed him last year. Based on their careers to date, the consensus outside Broncos message boards is that Cutler is the better QB.

Tned
07-13-2010, 12:12 AM
While I'd ratherhave a tad more rah rah stuff from KO. Being professional ois OK also I'm sure his OL and other O players know that he is happy about a great play.

Think it was Barry Sanders that once said to a rookie after the rookie was celebrating a TD.

"Act like you have been there before and act like your going to do it again."

In KOs pressers he always says he has a lot to improve on even if he has has a GREAT game.

That is the kind of guy I'm looking for.
Color me old fashioned but there are VERY few P Mannings on the football field. Someone who rarely makes a mistake.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

Apparently Josh McDaniels sees things differently, as he spent a first round pick trying to get a replacement for Orton.

topscribe
07-13-2010, 12:36 AM
Apparently Josh McDaniels sees things differently, as he spent a first round pick trying to get a replacement for Orton.

I don't think McDaniels was just trying to get "a replacement." He was trying to
get Tebow. Seems to me there is a difference. If I have a "good" QB but have
a chance at whom I think is a potential superstar, I'm going for it.

Shanny did the same thing. After Plummer's great 2005 season, Shanny wasn't
going for a replacement. He was going for Cutler. At least it would seem that way to me.

And there there is the case where the Broncos spent a first-rounder on Maddox
when they had Elway. Now, that one was zany. :confused:

But it isn't always as simple as it may seem . . .

-----

Bosco
07-13-2010, 03:32 AM
As for me, the main thing between the two (physical aside). Is if the game is on the line and we are on our own 2. I want the ball in Jays hands. He has the drive or whatever you want to call it to march us down the field and win.

That's odd, because over Cutler's career he's failed in the clutch more often than not. The guy is like a poor man's Brett Favre. He makes lots of jaw dropping plays, but it's a tossup whether that saves or kills you.


First, Shanahan got in Cutler's face plenty of times on the sideline and it was never a problem. I'm not really sure where this fiction (that he can't handle criticism) comes from, but it has entrenched itself among Broncos fans. I know I've posted a piece where John Lynch openly said that Shanahan more or less let Cutler and his other "offensive stars" do as this wished without much tough love. I also don't recall Shanny getting in Jay's face over the time he was here.


Fact of the matter is there is not 1 GM who would take Orton over Cutler straight up That doesn't have anything to do with Cutler being better. How many chances did Jeff George get despite being an even bigger douche than Cutler? Hell, as recently as 2007 there were teams willing to consider signing him again even though he was 40 years old.

Guys with that level of physical talent will always have someone who thinks they can "fix" them.

Lonestar
07-13-2010, 07:48 AM
So I guess this can be summed up many think jay has more potential STILL.

While the rest of us think we have seen said potential kill, dinger, bates, mikey, turner and suspect that martz and lovie are next.

There is no doubt that jay has more phyiscal skills.

Only folks that are not madly in love with him see that until coachs tame him above the shoulders he will continue to turn the ball over. Now can he out survive another 3-4 coaches before that happens or is he heir apparent to replace mc nabb in WAS when jay becomes persona non grata in CHI.

Some on mentioned we are homers and can not be convinced.

The same can be said many here jumped into bed with jay because they hated Jake.

Heard all of the arguement on that one

But the fact still remains Jake was one of the winingest QB's in franchise history here.

But but but but jay has all of this potential don't yoi se it?

So did Jeff George and he killed a lot of coaches trying to fix his head.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

Mike
07-13-2010, 08:42 AM
None of the above.

Give me Cutler's talent with Orton's drive and leadership and I would say that player had the potential to be a franchise QB.

T.K.O.
07-13-2010, 08:57 AM
i really hope brandstater does'nt end up being better than cutler and tebow.....that would suck !:mad:

LRtagger
07-13-2010, 09:16 AM
3) This is probably the biggest are of importance some of which Underrated brought up and that is 3rd down conversions. I brought these numbers up in another thread somewhere. But in 08' Denver was 3rd in 3rd down conversions while Denver in 09' was 22nd. If your judging the QB's than you really cant make excuses as far as lines, etc. The QB leads the team and although Jay's stats on 3rd down dropped to 18th in 09' many would say he had hardly any receivers to throw too and a worse Oline than Denver.


So what you're saying is, you can't make those excuses for Orton but you can for Cutler :confused:


Also, I would beg to differ that 3rd down conversion % is a good way to judge a QB. After all, 90% of the time on 3rd and less than 3 it is a running play. And we all know Denver's line was atrocious in short yardage situations last year with all the injuries and replacement players. Not to mention the fact that we were trying to transition to a power blocking scheme without the full personel to do so...with a rookie RB that lost his legs towards the end of the year.


Also, as it relates to defensive rankings and Jay not being fortunate enough to have a higher ranked defense...I would say the 10-15 additional turnovers Jay gives up would factor into a defense's points given up statistic. I'm not refuting that the 2009 defense wasnt better than 2008 (obviously it was), but if Orton throws 14 more INTs in 09 I guarantee you the defensive ranking takes a nose dive.

Anyways, this debate is pointless. I think most can agree that Jay may not be as great as some of us thought he was. I also think we can all agree that he may not have been a great fit for McD's sytem anyways. I also think we can all agree (even those optimistic about how good Orton can be) that he is not the future in Denver and maybe McD didnt think as highly of him as some of us thought he did.

That said, I think we are in a good place at the QB position moving forward to the future.

T.K.O.
07-13-2010, 09:28 AM
i dont believe mcD ever thought orton was a better qb than cutler....it's just that one of them really wanted to play in denver and the other did not.orton proved that he was the best available choice mcD had in very tough situation.
when the boss says "enough is enough...ship the kid outta here" he reviewed his options and did pretty well considering.
now he is being accused of "not backing HIS qb" ,may i be the first to say "WTF"?
we had simms....upgraded (hopefully) by getting quinn who should be a much more capable back up if he does'nt bump orton all together.
and we got Tebow,one of if not the most successful qb's in college football history.
to me you can't possibly use the "he showed no faith in orton thing"
the guy is responsible for not only for keeping the team competitive now,but building for the future.just like every coach or gm on every other team.
talk about ego,it would have been far more arrogant to sit back and say"i'm so good at this i can win with orton or any qb" he is covering as many bases as he can.....that's a good thing.

LRtagger
07-13-2010, 10:16 AM
It wasn't like when he came in the game was out of reach. Gutsy? Sure. Effective? Not so much. It was especially disheartening seeing as how it was a great day for Moreno statistically (10 carries, 80 yds, 8 ypc avg)


When Orton came into the game, he drove the team right down the field. I believe he was perfect on the drive only to see Moreno fumble the ball at the goal line.

I'm a big fan of Moreno, but to say it was a great day for him isn't very accurate. That fumble was basically the turning point in the game. If i remember correctly it was late in the second and I think we were down 13-0 or something. Simms got yanked and Orton came in and the offense came to life. It was the first time all game that the offense threw the ball and looked in sync...about to score a TD which would have made it 13-7 going into the half, but instead we went into the half down 13-0 coming off a RZ fumble and INT. The team was completely flat in the second half - on both offense and defense.

Also, the first drive of the game really set the tone. The running game marched down the field to the RZ. Simms drops back for his first pass of the game and fumbles. This arguably doesn't happen with Orton in the game and the team walks away with at least 3. FYI SD's possession off the fumble resulted in their only TD in the first half.

Its just speculation, but I think the game would have been much closer had a healthy Orton started. Hell a hobbled Orton had more passing yards in his first throw than Simms had in the entire game to that point.

underrated29
07-13-2010, 12:01 PM
Didn't Orton lead a 98 and 90+ yard drive to beat the Pats? :confused:


Yes, he did. And not saying he cant, or to take away from those sexy drives, but every QB I think has had a couple. Even Jamarcus had one against us last year....booo.






If Cutler were our QB last year, would we have won more games?

The answer simply cant be yes.

:coffee:


^ See I disagree. Our offense scoring went down (x) points. Dont feel like looking it up right now. Yes, new system, new coach, etc all factor in, but in the games like philly, oakland, washington, indy- I think with cutler we might have pulled those out. We went from high scoring to lower than average scoring.







That's odd, because over Cutler's career he's failed in the clutch more often than not. The guy is like a poor man's Brett Favre. He makes lots of jaw dropping plays, but it's a tossup whether that saves or kills you.





That is odd, because I remember many games that he did not fail in the clutch, cleveland, bears, bolts, saints, in fact, most of the time jay was playing catch up because of our piss poor defense. I believe it we went back and looked up how many games we were down and jay led us back to victory would be more than you one could count on one hand.

Tned
07-13-2010, 12:33 PM
So I guess this can be summed up many think jay has more potential STILL.

While the rest of us think we have seen said potential kill, dinger, bates, mikey, turner and suspect that martz and lovie are next.

Convenient how when it is Jay bashing time, Jay got mikey fired. When it's just mikey bashing time, then it was the fact that he wouldn't fire Slowik (or, slowitt as you so cleverly call him) and refused to fix the defense.

I guess we can call it the "hate of the moment".


There is no doubt that jay has more phyiscal skills.

Only folks that are not madly in love with him see that until coachs tame him above the shoulders he will continue to turn the ball over. Now can he out survive another 3-4 coaches before that happens or is he heir apparent to replace mc nabb in WAS when jay becomes persona non grata in CHI.

I don't love Rivers, Rothlesberger or Romo, not to mention not being 'madly in love' with them, and I know that NFL experts around the league consider them better QBs than Orton as well.

Newsflash, stating ones opinion about players and coaches doesn't ALWAYS come down to love or hate. Most of us neither love nor hate players and coaches and therefore we are able to discuss them without those biases.


The same can be said many here jumped into bed with jay because they hated Jake.

And, many of you guys ONLY hate Jay because he replaced Jake. My Lord, it happened four years ago, when will people get over it.


But the fact still remains Jake was one of the winingest QB's in franchise history here.

He's not on the team anymore, neither is Jay. Might be time to get over Jake getting benched. Just a thought.

LRtagger
07-13-2010, 01:58 PM
^ See I disagree. Our offense scoring went down (x) points. Dont feel like looking it up right now. Yes, new system, new coach, etc all factor in, but in the games like philly, oakland, washington, indy- I think with cutler we might have pulled those out. We went from high scoring to lower than average scoring.

If you factor out the first 3 games of the 2008 season, we only averaged 19.6 ppg. I know thats a big "IF", but after the first three games the offense in 08 was pretty below average (the 2009 team averaged just over 20ppg).


That's not completely indicative of Jay alone, but to say the 2008 team was a high scoring team is a farse. They came out of the gates like an offensive powerhouse and then were below average for the remaining 13 games of the year. People only seem to remember the first 3 games that year offensively, but it didn't come even close to carrying on throughout the other 13 games.

The 2007 team also averaged fewer ppg than the 2009 team....as did the 2006 team.

Lonestar
07-13-2010, 02:05 PM
So what you're saying is, you can't make those excuses for Orton but you can for Cutler :confused:


Also, I would beg to differ that 3rd down conversion % is a good way to judge a QB. After all, 90% of the time on 3rd and less than 3 it is a running play. And we all know Denver's line was atrocious in short yardage situations last year with all the injuries and replacement players. Not to mention the fact that we were trying to transition to a power blocking scheme without the full personel to do so...with a rookie RB that lost his legs towards the end of the year.


Also, as it relates to defensive rankings and Jay not being fortunate enough to have a higher ranked defense...I would say the 10-15 additional turnovers Jay gives up would factor into a defense's points given up statistic. I'm not refuting that the 2009 defense wasnt better than 2008 (obviously it was), but if Orton throws 14 more INTs in 09 I guarantee you the defensive ranking takes a nose dive.

Anyways, this debate is pointless. I think most can agree that Jay may not be as great as some of us thought he was. I also think we can all agree that he may not have been a great fit for McD's sytem anyways. I also think we can all agree (even those optimistic about how good Orton can be) that he is not the future in Denver and maybe McD didnt think as highly of him as some of us thought he did.

That said, I think we are in a good place at the QB position moving forward to the future.


great post many will denounce it


Convenient how when it is Jay bashing time, Jay got mikey fired. When it's just mikey bashing time, then it was the fact that he wouldn't fire Slowik (or, slowitt as you so cleverly call him) and refused to fix the defense.

I guess we can call it the "hate of the moment".



I don't love Rivers, Rothlesberger or Romo, not to mention not being 'madly in love' with them, and I know that NFL experts around the league consider them better QBs than Orton as well.

Newsflash, stating ones opinion about players and coaches doesn't ALWAYS come down to love or hate. Most of us neither love nor hate players and coaches and therefore we are able to discuss them without those biases.



And, many of you guys ONLY hate Jay because he replaced Jake. My Lord, it happened four years ago, when will people get over it.



He's not on the team anymore, neither is Jay. Might be time to get over Jake getting benched. Just a thought.


so you do not think mikey placing all of his hopes that jay could out score opponents had NOTHING to do with him getting fired.

That mikey surrounded the offense with all the toys for jay to out score folks

It was clear to MOST of us that the D got the short end of the stick Excpet for in year 05 IIRC when Bates got all of his toys for the DE that failed miserably after he was relieved as DC mid season .

The fact of the matter was jay was here and he failed to bring home the bacon and that WITH slowlic got him canned.

Do you think had we made the playoffs that mike would have been given more time to fix the D since the O was good.

mike is gone bates is gone, turner is gone, dinger is gone, all while trying to fix jay in the head. no one debates his skills just his decision making and some mechanics. none of which got fixed by any of those coaches. Please tell me you believe this.

As far as others around the league not loving Orton as much as they do others. I guess I would feel that same way if I were them and orton would not have been in a couple of lousy situations.

Farve, Young and a few other QB's have blossomed in "other environments" also.


I'm taking the high road here and saying if he puts up the contract year play that I think he can they may change their minds.

If they do not well that is their problem.


As for me getting over JAke well maybe it it time for others to forget jay.

MY issue with jay was not that he was replacing JAKE, BUT THAT WE NEEDED DL AND TOTALY IGNORED IT AGAIN. Put that in your bonnet and try to remember it. that was my compliant about cutler he was less needed than D and frankly almost still is.

BEcause I stuck up for Jake while other denounced him a lot like they are orton, does not make me a HATER.

YOU really need to rethink your Hate mantra every time I mention jay, mikey, or BM.

ME thinks it is YOUR problem and not mine.

Of course KO may take a dump this year also, time will tell.

NEws flash just because I do not love jay does not mean I hate him as your always trying to imply.

jhns
07-13-2010, 02:16 PM
This is easy. Orton is and always will be a backup QB. Every coach that has started him agrees with this as every time he has started, the coach was looking for a replacement by the next season. Cutler at least has the potential to be a quality starter if he gets the right coaching. He can do it all, he just needs to learn to make better decisions.

Northman
07-13-2010, 02:26 PM
If you factor out the first 3 games of the 2008 season, we only averaged 19.6 ppg. I know thats a big "IF", but after the first three games the offense in 08 was pretty below average (the 2009 team averaged just over 20ppg).


That's not completely indicative of Jay alone, but to say the 2008 team was a high scoring team is a farse. They came out of the gates like an offensive powerhouse and then were below average for the remaining 13 games of the year. People only seem to remember the first 3 games that year offensively, but it didn't come even close to carrying on throughout the other 13 games.

The 2007 team also averaged fewer ppg than the 2009 team....as did the 2006 team.

Actually, no one said they were a top 10 scoring offense. Its been pointed out that both offenses for 08' and 09' were middle of the pack. However, there was a dropoff in 09' even if it wasnt a whole lot. The biggest difference though is in the 3rd down conversions. You may not see that as a big deal but the reality is it is a big deal when controlling clock and making plays down the stretch when necessary to win ballgames.

jhns
07-13-2010, 02:33 PM
Actually, no one said they were a top 10 scoring offense. Its been pointed out that both offenses for 08' and 09' were middle of the pack. However, there was a dropoff in 09' even if it wasnt a whole lot. The biggest difference though is in the 3rd down conversions. You may not see that as a big deal but the reality is it is a big deal when controlling clock and making plays down the stretch when necessary to win ballgames.

There was a big dropoff though. If we had the Cutler offense do the exact same thing last year, they would have been top 10 rather than bottom half. That isn't even mentioning that you guys are using team stats and this past years team had a little more scoring from the defense and special teams. This also isn't mentioning the general help in field position and turnovers that this past years team had. That offense that was led by Cutler was an offense made up of rookie-third year guys. It is a shame we didn't get to see them grow together.

I will take the destruction of that offense though if McDaniels is able to build a complete team that wins.

silkamilkamonico
07-13-2010, 03:09 PM
^ See I disagree. Our offense scoring went down (x) points. Dont feel like looking it up right now. Yes, new system, new coach, etc all factor in, but in the games like philly, oakland, washington, indy- I think with cutler we might have pulled those out. We went from high scoring to lower than average scoring.


Scoring went down, efficiency went up/. How many of those games, that we won, would we have lost with Cutler turning the ball over?


We might have won a game or 2 with Cutler. We also would have lost a game or 2 (that we won) with Cutler. Don't deny that now. Cutler showed us he can single handidly lose games all by himself (see Miami).






That is odd, because I remember many games that he did not fail in the clutch, cleveland, bears, bolts, saints, in fact, most of the time jay was playing catch up because of our piss poor defense. I believe it we went back and looked up how many games we were down and jay led us back to victory would be more than you one could count on one hand.



Cutler had 5 comefrom behind victories with Denver.

topscribe
07-13-2010, 03:48 PM
^ See I disagree. Our offense scoring went down (x) points. Dont feel like looking it up right now. Yes, new system, new coach, etc all factor in, but in the games like philly, oakland, washington, indy- I think with cutler we might have pulled those out. We went from high scoring to lower than average scoring.

Well, see, by the same token, with a healthy Orton we might have won a couple
more games - probably would have.

Consider: His QBR plummeted from 91.1 before his injury in the Washington
game to 82.0 afterward. Before his injury, he threw 11 TDs against 4 INTs,
and after 10 TDs vs. 8 INTs. His sacks went from 1.5 a game up to 2.29

To say his injury had little to do with it, or was an "excuse," is ludicrous. Maybe
it would have been better, for Kyle, anyway, had he just not played on that
ankle for the rest of the season. Then Simms and/or Brandstater could have
taken over and achieved the same 2-6 season with the collapse of the
running game and defense - or maybe lost them all. Then we would have been
saying the season went into the tank because Orton was out since he did so
well before his injury.

It just astounds me how people gloss over Orton's injury when talking about
his season. I guess it's because we aren't QBs, and we can't figure out how
it would affect his velocity, accuracy, and mobility. :noidea:

-----

underrated29
07-13-2010, 03:58 PM
. The biggest difference though is in the 3rd down conversions.




Shanny- whether anyone has a good or bad opinion of him or not, he is a good coach and knows what he is talking about said something to the extent of-" Qbs make their money in this league on 3rd downs" I do not think anyone would really argue that matter.





Well, see, by the same token, with a healthy Orton we might have won a couple
more games - probably would have.

Consider: His QBR plummeted from 91.1 before his injury in the Washington
game to 82.0 afterward. Before his injury, he threw 11 TDs against 4 INTs,
and after 10 TDs vs. 8 INTs. His sacks went from 1.5 a game up to 2.29

To say his injury had little to do with it, or was an "excuse," is ludicrous. Maybe
it would have been better, for Kyle, anyway, had he just not played on that
ankle for the rest of the season. Then Simms and/or Brandstater could have
taken over and achieved the same 2-6 season with the collapse of the
running game and defense - or maybe lost them all. Then we would have been
saying the season went into the tank because Orton was out since he did so
well before his injury.

It just astounds me how people gloss over Orton's injury when talking about
his season. I guess it's because we aren't QBs, and we can't figure out how
it would affect his velocity, accuracy, and mobility. :noidea:

-----




I am sure it affected him, just like knowshons knee or whatever did him. Hell, I have a torn rotator cuff in my right shoulder and it TOTALLY effects me in hockey. And in hockey I am not even throwing, I am torquing my hips and snapping my wrists, yes arms do come in but still--its not a majory component and it greatly effefts me.

LRtagger
07-13-2010, 04:15 PM
Actually, no one said they were a top 10 scoring offense. Its been pointed out that both offenses for 08' and 09' were middle of the pack. However, there was a dropoff in 09' even if it wasnt a whole lot. The biggest difference though is in the 3rd down conversions. You may not see that as a big deal but the reality is it is a big deal when controlling clock and making plays down the stretch when necessary to win ballgames.


You are putting words in my mouth. I never said they were a top 10 scoring offense either. The post I quoted said "high scoring offense to a below average scoring offense" which just isnt true...ESPECIALLY if you factor out the first three games of 08.

I never said 3rd down conversions weren't a big deal, I said it wasnt indicative of how well a QB played....since a lot of third downs conversions are earned on the ground and the 08 running game was leaps and bounds better than the 09 running game. In 09 we ran a power blocking scheme with zone blocking lineman...and were missing our second best lineman for most of the year.

But in your post you stated that you cant use lineman, etc as an excuse for 3rd down conversions, but then in the next sentence used it as an excuse for why Chicago in 09 had a bad 3rd down percentage...when in fact it also effected Denver's output on 3rd down...not to mention we had many more penalties along the offensive line and gave up more sacks than we did in 08 which puts the offense in several more 3rd down and long scenarios.

You can't possibly use 3rd down conversions to compare QBs. There are way too many factors involved.

T.K.O.
07-13-2010, 07:31 PM
since obviously cutler is still a "hot topic" in these parts,lets take a moment and see where newly crowned "quarterback guru" trent dilfer and good ol' "stink" stood on the subject,shall we ?;)

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TXBRONC
07-13-2010, 08:23 PM
since obviously cutler is still a "hot topic" in these parts,lets take a moment and see where newly crowned "quarterback guru" trent dilfer and good ol' "stink" stood on the subject,shall we ?;)

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Who the hell cares he's not Denver anymore the last time I checked? :coffee:

Bosco
07-13-2010, 08:28 PM
We went from high scoring to lower than average scoring. In 2008 we had the 16th ranked offense. That is certainly not "high scoring".


That is odd, because I remember many games that he did not fail in the clutch, cleveland, bears, bolts, saints, in fact, most of the time jay was playing catch up because of our piss poor defense. I believe it we went back and looked up how many games we were down and jay led us back to victory would be more than you one could count on one hand.

Cleveland, San Diego @ home (2008) I'll give you, but Cutler did nothing clutch in the Bears or Saints game. Hell, in the Saints game he threw a pick on the very first play of the 2nd quarter that resulted in a touchdown, letting the Saints back in the game. You could pretty easily argue that the defense (scored a touchdown, 4th down stop on the 1 yard line, 3rd and 1 stop on the Saints final drive) was much clutch in that game than Jay was.

T.K.O.
07-13-2010, 08:36 PM
Who the hell cares he's not Denver anymore the last time I checked? :coffee:

the most posted in thread of the day "cutler vs orton"
i'd say people still care:coffee:
it has been widely recognized that cutler's career beyond his days with the broncos will always be significant to both the franchise and the fanbase.
though i immediatly threw my support behind orton when jay left (and will do so when orton leaves for the next qb) some still feel the need to discuss it and even hold onto anger over it. thats ok too :D

Northman
07-13-2010, 08:41 PM
But in your post you stated that you cant use lineman, etc as an excuse for 3rd down conversions, but then in the next sentence used it as an excuse for why Chicago in 09 had a bad 3rd down percentage...when in fact it also effected Denver's output on 3rd down...not to mention we had many more penalties along the offensive line and gave up more sacks than we did in 08 which puts the offense in several more 3rd down and long scenarios.

You can't possibly use 3rd down conversions to compare QBs. There are way too many factors involved.

There are many factors involved in a lot of things such as how your defense performs on the other side, what kind of gameplan you OC is calling, what kind of receiver core you have, etc. And i didnt say you could use it for one QB and not the other. Ive only said most people who try to debate do that. Ive seen so many on here cry about McD implementing a new scheme but then disregard Cutler having to use a new system (to him) in Chicago. But if im looking at the QB's themselves without all the other factors it is night and day for me. Jay is more mobile, Jay has better accuracy, and Jay is able to stay healthy. The only area that Orton really trumps Jay is in character. But, as pointed out by others it hasnt swayed the outlook of other NFL teams and commentators who believe Jay to be franchise material as opposed to Orton. At the end of the day the question was asked why Jay is considered a franchise QB. Anyone can argue all day long why he may not be but the reality is NFL for the most believes that he is. As for the 3rd down conversions meaning anything to a QB, it most certainly does for the Denver Broncos as our running game hasnt been the most prolific at 3rd conversions for years. So while it might not be as important to another franchise for the Denver Broncos at this time it is a huge difference maker. Until it gets better on the ground in terms of conversions it will always be important if the QB can string together some first downs off those conversions.

T.K.O.
07-13-2010, 08:48 PM
i remember hearing alot of people (commentators and fans) saying they did'nt get what they paid for and expected from jay last year....until he started getting it together at the end of the year.
he may someday be ,but right now he has alot to prove before earning the franchise qb moniker

Northman
07-13-2010, 08:51 PM
i remember hearing alot of people (commentators and fans) saying they did'nt get what they paid for and expected from jay last year....until he started getting it together at the end of the year.
he may someday be ,but right now he has alot to prove before earning the franchise qb moniker

Its probably true for a lot fans of the NFL. But, at the end of the day any owner in the league would still prefer Jay over Orton. That just isnt in question. Unless of course your McD but thats not saying a whole lot at this point. :lol:

Tempus Fugit
07-13-2010, 10:22 PM
Its probably true for a lot fans of the NFL. But, at the end of the day any owner in the league would still prefer Jay over Orton.

There's an owner named Bowlen........

Northman
07-14-2010, 12:19 AM
There's an owner named Bowlen........

Yea, yea and at one point he said this was Jay's team......

NittanyBuff24
07-14-2010, 06:59 AM
why ? does he throw fewer interceptions on tuedays ?
if so maybe the nfl could schedule a few tuesday games to boost his stats or get him above .500:laugh::salute:
all in good fun,please dont flame out on me guys....i used to like cutler.....but now he's a bear,and i don't like the bears;)

Why, because lead foot cant get out of his own way, couldnt complete a pass of 30 plus yds if his life depended on it etc.. Cutler might be a whiny *****, but he has all the tools and can be taught when to check down, throw the ball away, use touch etc.. you cant teach KO things he simply can not nor will ever be able to do!

T.K.O.
07-14-2010, 08:08 AM
Why, because lead foot cant get out of his own way, couldnt complete a pass of 30 plus yds if his life depended on it etc.. Cutler might be a whiny *****, but he has all the tools and can be taught when to check down, throw the ball away, use touch etc.. you cant teach KO things he simply can not nor will ever be able to do!

did you know marshall only had 2 receptions of 50+ yards in his 3 years with cutler at qb ?
he had 3 last year with orton at qb:confused:

Lonestar
07-14-2010, 09:27 AM
Yea, yea and at one point he said this was Jay's team......

Probably knew he had to do that because he is a head case to keep him calm after he fired his love daddy.
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NittanyBuff24
07-14-2010, 09:32 AM
did you know marshall only had 2 receptions of 50+ yards in his 3 years with cutler at qb ?
he had 3 last year with orton at qb:confused:

You can love on neck beard all you want, lets see if your still singing the same tune when he's playing elsewhere in a yr or so!

Lonestar
07-14-2010, 09:39 AM
Why, because lead foot cant get out of his own way, couldnt complete a pass of 30 plus yds if his life depended on it etc.. Cutler might be a whiny *****, but he has all the tools and can be taught when to check down, throw the ball away, use touch etc.. you cant teach KO things he simply can not nor will ever be able to do!

While KO is not steve young or Jake he has enough moblity to move around in the pocket if it is not being crushed on all sides.

As for 30+ yard passes you. Have to have time for them to develop when 40% of your starters are not on the field it is hard to get that time. In case you were not looking we tried to convert a light in the ass ZBS OL into a stronger, meaner PBS team while having a OL coach that has never played on the OL a day in his life. 40% of that OL was fired and the coach left as all he knows about OL is what he learned from Gibbs ZBS.
Any QB including jay would have struggled behind that loser group last year.

I'll wait and see how thee transition goes this year before throwing it all under the bus like you are.
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Lonestar
07-14-2010, 10:09 AM
You can love on neck beard all you want, lets see if your still singing the same tune when he's playing elsewhere in a yr or so!

TKO supports the current QB did you not read it above. He supported jay until he turned into a whinny bitch and his supportters whinned about Josh and his choices for QB.

I suspect he realizes that barring something strange that KO is not here in 2011 or later. That he will have another career year and get a good contract somewhere else and then he and most other memembers will support our current QB and not whine about jay not being here.
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topscribe
07-14-2010, 10:20 AM
Why, because lead foot cant get out of his own way, couldnt complete a pass of 30 plus yds if his life depended on it etc.. Cutler might be a whiny *****, but he has all the tools and can be taught when to check down, throw the ball away, use touch etc.. you cant teach KO things he simply can not nor will ever be able to do!

One of the things analysts have stated about Cutler is that he has to improve
his touch. They have said he's been too much of a gunner. One analyst went
so far as to comment that Orton could drop a ball over the reach of a defender,
and that Cutler needed to improve on that, rather than trying to throw it
through him (which might be behind some of his interceptions). BMarsh, in fact,
commented while he was here that he loved Orton because Orton throws a
"catchable" ball. Now, why would he say that?

Regarding your allusion to Orton's mobility: Orton played half of last season on
a high ankle sprain. He played half of the previous season on a high ankle
sprain. Now, I don't know whether you have ever severely sprained an ankle,
but I have. I don't know how Orton managed to play at all, let alone have
mobility.

But if you go back and review the final KC game last year, it appeared that
maybe he had been healing because he showed mobility that even I didn't
know he had. In one instance, he went to scramble out of the pocket, and he
ran right into the arms of a defender. He spun out of that grasp, right into
the arms of another defender - and he spun out of that one, ran out to the
right, and completed the pass!

If Orton is healthy, he is mobile. No, he is not Fran Tarkenton, but he is mobile
enough.

Now, regarding your claim that Orton can't complete the deep pass, I refer
you to Post #76 (http://broncosforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1009556&postcount=76). Review the clips I have linked there. If you don't want to
do that, and you want to keep up your claims about Orton's deep game, then
we will all know your agenda . . .

------

Ravage!!!
07-14-2010, 10:29 AM
The thing is, a lot of strong armed QBs have a tendency to do that (throwing the ball too hard) when coming out of college. I remember hearing the same things about Elway. Not comparing Jay to John, but what I'm saying is... if a GREAT QB coming out of college has the same problems of throwing that "catchable ball".. instead of putting too much heat on it (as John did early), then I don't have any reason to believe that a guy like Jay would do the same thing.

But who cares about throwing the deep ball with the lob under it? Thats not where the strong arm comes into play. All QBs can throw a deep long ball, when putting air under it, especially with time to sit. Same with any pass. The strong arm comes into play when the pocket breaks down, when the QB can't take a full step forward, and when he may not be able to set his feet completely. Thats why all coaches/GMs would take the stronger armed QB over another if everything else is equal.

topscribe
07-14-2010, 10:32 AM
The thing is, a lot of strong armed QBs have a tendency to do that (throwing the ball too hard) when coming out of college. I remember hearing the same things about Elway. Not comparing Jay to John, but what I'm saying is... if a GREAT QB coming out of college has the same problems of throwing that "catchable ball".. instead of putting too much heat on it (as John did early), then I don't have any reason to believe that a guy like Jay would do the same thing.

I believe Jay will improve, especially with Martz as his mentor now. Frankly, I
still look for big things from Jay. I did not intend to disparage Jay, only to point
out that it was not one of his strengths, although he obviously has a lot of
strengths.

-----

NittanyBuff24
07-14-2010, 10:36 AM
One of the things analysts have stated about Cutler is that he has to improve
his touch. They have said he's been too much of a gunner. One analyst went
so far as to comment that Orton could drop a ball over the reach of a defender,
and that Cutler needed to improve on that, rather than trying to throw it
through him (which might be behind some of his interceptions). BMarsh, in fact,
commented while he was here that he loved Orton because Orton throws a
"catchable" ball. Now, why would he say that?

Regarding your allusion to Orton's mobility: Orton played half of last season on
a high ankle sprain. He played half of the previous season on a high ankle
sprain. Now, I don't know whether you have ever severely sprained an ankle,
but I have. I don't know how Orton managed to play at all, let alone have
mobility.

But if you go back and review the final KC game last year, it appeared that
maybe he had been healing because he showed mobility that even I didn't
know he had. In one instance, he went to scramble out of the pocket, and he
ran right into the arms of a defender. He spun out of that grasp, right into
the arms of another defender - and he spun out of that one, ran out to the
right, and completed the pass!

If Orton is healthy, he is mobile. No, he is not Fran Tarkenton, but he is mobile
enough.

Now, regarding your claim that Orton can't complete the deep pass, I refer
you to Post #76 (http://broncosforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1009556&postcount=76). Review the clips I have linked there. If you don't want to
do that, and you want to keep up your claims about Orton's deep game, then
we will all know your agenda . . .

------

My agenda, opinion whatever you want to call it, is that KO is a limited qb with little to no upside, McD would not have traded for BQ and drafted baby Jesus if he didnt feel the same, but again love you some KO all you want, but I for one will be happy to see him heading out of town sooner than later!

Ravage!!!
07-14-2010, 10:38 AM
I believe Jay will improve, especially with Martz as his mentor now. Frankly, I
still look for big things from Jay. I did not intend to disparage Jay, only to point
out that it was not one of his strengths, although he obviously has a lot of
strengths.

-----

Absolutely. I didn't take it that way, but we've obviously heard criticisms of that about Jay since Marshall made the comments, and rightfully so.

John used to blast the ball through his WRs hands on short curls and short slants. Same thing we are seeing with Jay. John had to learn to take off the velocity, and that came with time in the league and maturing. So far I honestly haven't seen any reason to believe that Jay won't learn the same lessons.

topscribe
07-14-2010, 10:40 AM
My agenda, opinion whatever you want to call it, is that KO is a limited qb with little to no upside, McD would not have traded for BQ and drafted baby Jesus if he didnt feel the same, but again love you some KO all you want, but I for one will be happy to see him heading out of town sooner than later!

Okay, so now we know your agenda. It's okay. I don't hold any animosity toward
you for your myopia.

I only presented the facts, laid bare for all to see. Some will be open-minded;
some will not. I realize that. No biggie . . .

-----

Ravage!!!
07-14-2010, 10:42 AM
My agenda, opinion whatever you want to call it, is that KO is a limited qb with little to no upside, McD would not have traded for BQ and drafted baby Jesus if he didnt feel the same, but again love you some KO all you want, but I for one will be happy to see him heading out of town sooner than later!

Yeah.. I hate when people think that stating an opinion has an 'agenda' attached to it.

I'm with you. I think we've seen enough of Orton to know what he is over the last few years. I don't think we are going to see some HUGE growth and change that is going to make him into something he isn't. He's still going ot be the same Orton.

If the coaches believed he could grow into something (and many that defend Orton say that htey trust the coaches much more than they trust the 'couch GMs' here)... then you wouldn't see one coach throw him in on a trade for another QB, and then the NEXT coach trade for TWO more QBs after having him for a season.

Lonestar
07-14-2010, 11:07 AM
I believe Jay will improve, especially with Martz as his mentor now. Frankly, I
still look for big things from Jay. I did not intend to disparage Jay, only to point
out that it was not one of his strengths, although he obviously has a lot of
strengths.

-----

I personally do not think jay will change out of gunslinger mode. He has been doing it for along time and if mike could not cure him from it. I do not se martz doing it either mike had three years and martz will be fired with lovie next year if there is not a huge turn around.

Playing in the same divison as MIN, GB, and an up and coming talented DET that will be almost impossible to win that divison and IMO that is what will be needed to save their jobs. And jay will be further down the jeff george path as a coach killer.
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Ravage!!!
07-14-2010, 11:26 AM
I personally do not think jay will change out of gunslinger mode. He has been doing it for along time and if mike could not cure him from it. I do not se martz doing it either mike had three years and martz will be fired with lovie next year if there is not a huge turn around.

Playing in the same divison as MIN, GB, and an up and coming talented DET that will be almost impossible to win that divison and IMO that is what will be needed to save their jobs. And jay will be further down the jeff george path as a coach killer.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

So the fact that Lovie couldn't win before, and had only had Jay for 2 seasons, HE's the reason that Lovie will be fired??? :lol:

Not ot mention, you continue to avoid the fact that Jay had nothing to do with Mike's firing, and to DOUBLE that point, Bowlen was absolutely THRILLED with Cutler in Denver. If anything, that didn't hurt Mike as the coach here, it absolutely HELPED him. Its absurd.. completely and totally asinine, to suggest that Jay had anything to do with the firing of Mike, and will have anything to do with the firing of Lovie :lol:

WARHORSE
07-14-2010, 01:01 PM
My agenda, opinion whatever you want to call it, is that KO is a limited qb with little to no upside, McD would not have traded for BQ and drafted baby Jesus if he didnt feel the same, but again love you some KO all you want, but I for one will be happy to see him heading out of town sooner than later!


Yeah.. I hate when people think that stating an opinion has an 'agenda' attached to it.

I'm with you. I think we've seen enough of Orton to know what he is over the last few years. I don't think we are going to see some HUGE growth and change that is going to make him into something he isn't. He's still going ot be the same Orton.

If the coaches believed he could grow into something (and many that defend Orton say that htey trust the coaches much more than they trust the 'couch GMs' here)... then you wouldn't see one coach throw him in on a trade for another QB, and then the NEXT coach trade for TWO more QBs after having him for a season.


Drafting Tebow and picking up Quinn are not the seal of doom for Orton here.

Orton has had single year of decent play in a new and complicated offense.
But Denver could not afford to leave the QB position unaddressed in the draft or free agency.

While alot was learned this past year about where we are at the QB position, there are alot of unknowns. Is what we saw out of Orton as good as it will get? Will he improve this year? How much will he improve?

Denver couldnt afford to walk into this season telling themselves, "We dont need to address the QB position because Kyle will get better......."

Imo, Denver learned last year that Chris Simms and Brandstater are simply burning a roster spot. Not gonna happen again this year.

Is there anyone who thought Chris Simms was anything more than a lump of coal sitting by the water cooler?

I bet Rod Smith could have come in and played better last year.

Simms had to go, and obviously they decided Brandstater had to go too.

On top of that, Ortons status as player on a one year contract has had a pull on the decision making as well. Orton will either be a RFA, or a FA after this season. That brings alot of unknowns with it as well.

What happens if Kyle plays well this year, even lights out, and then becomes a free agent? Are you going to then franchise him? If you do, what about Doomerville? If Orton is a FA, that means Doom will be also.

And then theres Champ to add to that soup.

No way Denver can afford to leave itself vulnerable to losing its starting QB to free agency, and then walk into 2011 with a rookie QB running a complicated offense.

Drafting Tebow was smart.

Picking up Quinn was smart.


Orton has this: the chance to play and establish himself.

If he does, Denver has a QB theyre comfortable with, and one theyre willing to give a decent contract to.

If he doesnt, they have Quinn AND Tebow with a year under their belts.




Drafting Tebow and picking up Quinn is not a statement that Denver is set on moving forward without Orton.

Drafting Tebow was as much a statement about what McD and the organization thinks Tim can possibly be. The upside for Tebow is through the roof. While everyone looks at him as being developmental, taking into consideration that his work ethic and character are near perfect, he is exactly the guy with huge potential that you would want to make a calculated risk with......rather than say.....Dez Bryant.

If Dez fulfills his potential and ends up being an elite player, he will be no where near as valuable to the franchise as Tebow if he fulfills his potential and becomes an elite player.

This was a smart move by Denver, and when it comes to which player has the most potential value, the football nation has already stated that its Tebow, by blowing out his jersey sales.

Tebow is both polarizing and galvanizing at the same time. So on a business level, Tebow is a very, very, very wise choice.

No other player drafted in the 2010 draft comes close.

Lonestar
07-14-2010, 01:12 PM
Drafting Tebow and picking up Quinn are not the seal of doom for Orton here.

Orton has had single year of decent play in a new and complicated offense.
But Denver could not afford to leave the QB position unaddressed in the draft or free agency.

While alot was learned this past year about where we are at the QB position, there are alot of unknowns. Is what we saw out of Orton as good as it will get? Will he improve this year? How much will he improve?

Denver couldnt afford to walk into this season telling themselves, "We dont need to address the QB position because Kyle will get better......."

Imo, Denver learned last year that Chris Simms and Brandstater are simply burning a roster spot. Not gonna happen again this year.

Is there anyone who thought Chris Simms was anything more than a lump of coal sitting by the water cooler?

I bet Rod Smith could have come in and played better last year.

Simms had to go, and obviously they decided Brandstater had to go too.

On top of that, Ortons status as player on a one year contract has had a pull on the decision making as well. Orton will either be a RFA, or a FA after this season. That brings alot of unknowns with it as well.

What happens if Kyle plays well this year, even lights out, and then becomes a free agent? Are you going to then franchise him? If you do, what about Doomerville? If Orton is a FA, that means Doom will be also.

And then theres Champ to add to that soup.

No way Denver can afford to leave itself vulnerable to losing its starting QB to free agency, and then walk into 2011 with a rookie QB running a complicated offense.

Drafting Tebow was smart.

Picking up Quinn was smart.


Orton has this: the chance to play and establish himself.

If he does, Denver has a QB theyre comfortable with.

If he doesnt, they have Quinn AND Tebow with a year under their belts.




Drafting Tebow and picking up Quinn is not a statement that Denver is set on moving forward without Orton.

Drafting Tebow was as much a statement about what McD thinks he can possibly be. The upside for Tebow is through the roof. While everyone looks at him as being developmental, taking into consideration that his work ethic and character are near perfect, he is exactly the guy with huge potential that you would want to make a calculated risk with......rather than say.....Dez Bryant.

If Dez fulfills his potential and ends up being an elite player, he will be no where near as valuable to the franchise as Tebow if he fulfills his potential and becomes an elite player.

This was a smart move by Denver, and when it comes to which player has the most potential value, the football nation has already stated that its Tebow, by blowing out his jersey sales.

Tebow is both polarizing and galvanizing at the same time. So on a business level, Tebow is a very, very, very wise choice.

No other player drafted in the 2010 draft comes close.


Good post..

but let me say as it stands now under that current CBA, Orton will be a UFA while Doom would still be a RFA having not yet completed his 6th year.


The orton haters just like they did when Jake was here

have the standard line 'Well if the coach liked him so much why did they draft jay?"

after investing their reps in some one they do not have the huzhpaw to step back and say it was a mistake or I was wrong.

they will defend him till the day they die.

I believe that Josh saw that neither back up was going to be worth a crap and cut his loses. brought in Quinn for a cheap draft choice.

when tebow was still there at 25 he said much the same thing that mikey said in 06 lets bring the heat on the starter and since we do not know Orton after this year. do it.

I do not think for a minute that Josh did it because he had no long term faith in Orton other than he is an UFA next year, who just may be out of our price range. considering we have a flock of FA coming down the line placing huge money in one pocket may not be prudent.

claymore
07-14-2010, 01:22 PM
Orton would have to have a pretty spectacular year in order to remain in Denver as the starter.

Tebow starts the second the playoffs are out of site.

T.K.O.
07-14-2010, 01:26 PM
Orton would have to have a pretty spectacular year in order to remain in Denver as the starter.

Tebow starts the second the playoffs are out of site.

the playoffs won't be out of sight this year dude:cool:
the broncos final reg season game will decide the division in the afcw:beer:

claymore
07-14-2010, 01:28 PM
the playoffs won't be out of sight this year dude:cool:
the broncos final reg season game will decide the division in the afcw:beer:

I love your optimisim, but I wholeheartedly disagree. I forsee an absolute meltdown. So we will probably be somewhere in the middle. :D

T.K.O.
07-14-2010, 01:32 PM
I love your optimisim, but I wholeheartedly disagree. I forsee an absolute meltdown. So we will probably be somewhere in the middle. :D

yuk....i hate the middle ! we have been in the middle for waaaaaaaaaaaay to long:mad::lol:

underrated29
07-14-2010, 01:33 PM
JR- Jay is not a head case...You should really stop with that.


Head case- Chris Henry, pacman jones, matt jones.......



Jay is nothing like those. Jay whined, and bitched because he wanted to know that he was the most important player to the team. When he was not glorified that...He requested to be traded....


He has not had any off field incidents. He studies hard and loves the game. Remember when he and brandon would go home after TC (which brandon could not attend/maybe pre season too) and practice routes and throws at night in the backyard. That is commitment, not a head case.


Hate the guy for being a ***** all you want, but calling him something he is not is not right.

Because he has a blood disorder, does not mean you can say he has aids...? See the analogy.....I dont care about the rest of the hate you have for him, but i think slandering a player regardless of who is not right.

topscribe
07-14-2010, 01:37 PM
Good post..

but let me say as it stands now under that current CBA, Orton will be a UFA while Doom would still be a RFA having not yet completed his 6th year.


The orton haters just like they did when Jake was here

have the standard line 'Well if the coach liked him so much why did they draft jay?"

after investing their reps in some one they do not have the huzhpaw to step back and say it was a mistake or I was wrong.

they will defend him till the day they die.

I believe that Josh saw that neither back up was going to be worth a crap and cut his loses. brought in Quinn for a cheap draft choice.

when tebow was still there at 25 he said much the same thing that mikey said in 06 lets bring the heat on the starter and since we do not know Orton after this year. do it.

I do not think for a minute that Josh did it because he had no long term faith in Orton other than he is an UFA next year, who just may be out of our price range. considering we have a flock of FA coming down the line placing huge money in one pocket may not be prudent.

I said in an earlier post that Shanny didn't get Cutler because he felt he
needed to replace Jake - not after the season Jake had.

And I am sure McDaniels, being more open-minded than I have seen so often
around here, understood that Kyle achieved what he did, playing on one leg
for half of the season.

Kyle is a good QB.Tebow is a potential superstar, many think. You don't go
after the superstar necessarily because you think your present player must
be replaced. You go after the superstar because he is a superstar.

I don't know why some people cannot consider this possibility. But then, they
can't even recognize that a high ankle sprain can affect the play of a QB. But
that's just the nature of some, I guess - I remember when Champ had "lost a
step" because he couldn't run as he could before . . . even though his
hamstring injury was all over the news.

Some people have developed ignoring into a fine art . . .

-----

WARHORSE
07-14-2010, 01:42 PM
Good post..

but let me say as it stands now under that current CBA, Orton will be a UFA while Doom would still be a RFA having not yet completed his 6th year.


The orton haters just like they did when Jake was here

have the standard line 'Well if the coach liked him so much why did they draft jay?"

after investing their reps in some one they do not have the huzhpaw to step back and say it was a mistake or I was wrong.

they will defend him till the day they die.

I believe that Josh saw that neither back up was going to be worth a crap and cut his loses. brought in Quinn for a cheap draft choice.

when tebow was still there at 25 he said much the same thing that mikey said in 06 lets bring the heat on the starter and since we do not know Orton after this year. do it.

I do not think for a minute that Josh did it because he had no long term faith in Orton other than he is an UFA next year, who just may be out of our price range. considering we have a flock of FA coming down the line placing huge money in one pocket may not be prudent.


Thats right, I forgot about that. Orton has one more season accrued than Doom.

Two gun salute and thanks for the correction.:salute::salute:

Meanwhile, it still leaves everything to the unknown, and Denver has done a great job of being prepared for any situation when it comes to the QB position.

WARHORSE
07-14-2010, 01:46 PM
My agenda, opinion whatever you want to call it, is that KO is a limited qb with little to no upside, McD would not have traded for BQ and drafted baby Jesus if he didnt feel the same, but again love you some KO all you want, but I for one will be happy to see him heading out of town sooner than later!


JR- Jay is not a head case...You should really stop with that.


Head case- Chris Henry, pacman jones, matt jones.......



Jay is nothing like those. Jay whined, and bitched because he wanted to know that he was the most important player to the team. When he was not glorified that...He requested to be traded....


He has not had any off field incidents. He studies hard and loves the game. Remember when he and brandon would go home after TC (which brandon could not attend/maybe pre season too) and practice routes and throws at night in the backyard. That is commitment, not a head case.


Hate the guy for being a ***** all you want, but calling him something he is not is not right.

Because he has a blood disorder, does not mean you can say he has aids...? See the analogy.....I dont care about the rest of the hate you have for him, but i think slandering a player regardless of who is not right.


While Im not going to argue perception of Jays behavior, I will say that QB is not the position where petulance is a strength.


You dont see whiny QBs playing in the superbowl.

claymore
07-14-2010, 01:53 PM
While Im not going to argue perception of Jays behavior, I will say that QB is not the position where petulance is a strength.


You dont see whiny QBs playing in the superbowl.

Joe Montana is one example of a whiny bitch QB. John Elway is another. Eli Manning is another. I could go on....

claymore
07-14-2010, 01:55 PM
While Im not going to argue perception of Jays behavior, I will say that QB is not the position where petulance is a strength.


You dont see whiny QBs playing in the superbowl.


Joe Montana is one example of a whiny bitch QB. John Elway is another. Eli Manning is another. I could go on....

My Above post was kinda off target. Montana is the only one of the 3 listed that were particularly petulant.

Lonestar
07-14-2010, 02:36 PM
JR- Jay is not a head case...You should really stop with that.


Head case- Chris Henry, pacman jones, matt jones.......



Jay is nothing like those. Jay whined, and bitched because he wanted to know that he was the most important player to the team. When he was not glorified that...He requested to be traded....


He has not had any off field incidents. He studies hard and loves the game. Remember when he and brandon would go home after TC (which brandon could not attend/maybe pre season too) and practice routes and throws at night in the backyard. That is commitment, not a head case.


Hate the guy for being a ***** all you want, but calling him something he is not is not right.

Because he has a blood disorder, does not mean you can say he has aids...? See the analogy.....I dont care about the rest of the hate you have for him, but i think slandering a player regardless of who is not right.

jay is a head case as he feels he can throwing into triple coverage and get away with it the others mentioned are criminals and way beyond being head cases.

I do not hate the guy just calling a spade a spade.

he will/has not corrected his mechanics and so far has not stopped throwing into coverage when other players are open on shorter patterns.

He has all the physical skills in the world but so did leaf, george and many others that did not listen to their coaches.

As for having Diabetes most likely his fault for his dietary choices. If not then the drinking he continues to do will kill him.

Ravage!!!
07-14-2010, 02:45 PM
:lol: Its his fault!!

Ravage!!!
07-14-2010, 02:47 PM
Joe Montana is one example of a whiny bitch QB. John Elway is another. Eli Manning is another. I could go on....

I loved Steve Young, but Steve whined a lot as well. Bradshaw, the biggest whiner ever, and won four.

Ravage!!!
07-14-2010, 02:54 PM
when tebow was still there at 25 he said much the same thing that mikey said in 06 lets bring the heat on the starter and since we do not know Orton after this year. do it.

I do not think for a minute that Josh did it because he had no long term faith in Orton other than he is an UFA next year, who just may be out of our price range. considering we have a flock of FA coming down the line placing huge money in one pocket may not be prudent.

So, you do NOT think McD went into the draft expecting to get Tebow in the first round, and just was "wow'd" in surprise that he was still there at 25.. thus THEN jumped up and nabbed him.... instead of acquiring draft picks in order to get Tebow??? :confused: Reallly? You don't think that was the plan all along? It was a "fly by your pants" move/moment?

You don't think that drafting Tebow was because he didn't feel Orton was the LONG term solution, but felt using a 1st round draft pick on Tebow would SAVE him money instead of signing Orton long term??



Mmmmm.. k

WARHORSE
07-14-2010, 02:54 PM
My Above post was kinda off target. Montana is the only one of the 3 listed that were particularly petulant.


As I said, I wouldnt argue perception.

Montana was not what I would call whiny, but I cant honestly say I was watching him close enough to notice.


As for Elway and Eli.......I personally dont know where thats coming from in the smallest form.

underrated29
07-14-2010, 02:54 PM
jay is a head case as he feels he can throwing into triple coverage and get away with it the others mentioned are criminals and way beyond being head cases.



That is a reach. In hockey I constantly try to split the defense, sometimes it works others not, but I am going to try. Its not like Jay thinks it will work everytime and is surprised that it doesnt? then he could be, but being over confident in ones ability is not a head case.

Side note-
I do not think type 1 diabetes is related at all to diet...? But quite frankly I do not care or know.

WARHORSE
07-14-2010, 02:56 PM
So, you do NOT think McD went into the draft expecting to get Tebow in the first round, and just was "wow'd" in surprise that he was still there at 25.. thus THEN jumped up and nabbed him.... instead of acquiring draft picks in order to get Tebow??? :confused: Reallly? You don't think that was the plan all along? It was a "fly by your pants" move/moment?

You don't think that drafting Tebow was because he didn't feel Orton was the LONG term solution, but felt using a 1st round draft pick on Tebow would SAVE him money instead of signing Orton long term??



Mmmmm.. k


I dont think you actually read JRs post.

LRtagger
07-14-2010, 02:58 PM
The thing is, a lot of strong armed QBs have a tendency to do that (throwing the ball too hard) when coming out of college. I remember hearing the same things about Elway. Not comparing Jay to John, but what I'm saying is... if a GREAT QB coming out of college has the same problems of throwing that "catchable ball".. instead of putting too much heat on it (as John did early), then I don't have any reason to believe that a guy like Jay would do the same thing.

But who cares about throwing the deep ball with the lob under it? Thats not where the strong arm comes into play. All QBs can throw a deep long ball, when putting air under it, especially with time to sit. Same with any pass. The strong arm comes into play when the pocket breaks down, when the QB can't take a full step forward, and when he may not be able to set his feet completely. Thats why all coaches/GMs would take the stronger armed QB over another if everything else is equal.

I dunno, I think most NFL coaches would take Rivers over Cutler all day. Most of the great QBs in the league are not known for their strong arms, but more for their accuracy. Manning, Brees, Brady, Rivers etc are not known for their rocket arms but for their accuracy and poise which is what Cutler lacks.

Not to take anything away from Jay. He has exceptional tools, but IMO a strong arm is overrated. Elway still would have won even without a strong arm, but I don't know that Jay could.

TXBRONC
07-14-2010, 02:58 PM
I loved Steve Young, but Steve whined a lot as well. Bradshaw, the biggest whiner ever, and won four.

I never heard that Montana was a whiner. But Young, Theismann, Bradshaw, Peyton Manning to some degree, and IIRC even Elway was at the very least preceived as a whiner.

HORSEPOWER 56
07-14-2010, 02:58 PM
As for having Diabetes most likely his fault for his dietary choices. If not then the drinking he continues to do will kill him.

Really? Did you really just post this? Cutler's diabetes is type 1 (genetic). You're thinking of type 2 which occurs in people that are usually grossly obese. This was all covered EXTENSIVELY when it was discovered that Cutler had diabetes but because you already hated him for taking Plummer's job, you didn't pay attention.

Blaming Cutler for having diabetes is like blaming Orton for being ugly or Clady for being tall... it's just ignorant. :tsk:

Ravage!!!
07-14-2010, 02:59 PM
I dunno, I think most NFL coaches would take Rivers over Cutler all day. Most of the great QBs in the league are not known for their strong arms, but more for their accuracy. Manning, Brees, Brady, Rivers etc are not known for their rocket arms but for their accuracy and poise which is what Cutler lacks.

Not to take anything away from Jay. He has exceptional tools, but IMO a strong arm is overrated. Elway still would have won even without a strong arm, but I don't know that Jay could.

Thats why I said if all else is equal. If you have two guys that are of equal ability, but one has the stronger arm, thats the direction you go. If the other has more abilty as to what you are looking for, then that is the way you go.

HORSEPOWER 56
07-14-2010, 03:01 PM
I never heard that Montana was a whiner. But Young, Theismann, Bradshaw, Peyton Manning to some degree, and IIRC even Elway was at the very least preceived as a whiner.

Every QB is a whiner when things don't go their way. Manning, Brady, Roethlisberger, Rivers, etc are all sunshine and lollipops until their team starts losing then they typically whine, cry, and blame everyone but themselves (especially Manning).

claymore
07-14-2010, 03:09 PM
I loved Steve Young, but Steve whined a lot as well. Bradshaw, the biggest whiner ever, and won four.
I never heard Young was whiny. I know Montana was a real dick to him when San Fran grabbed Young from Tampa Bay. Thats my main beef with Montana, and the way he has treated the NFL since retirement.

As I said, I wouldnt argue perception.

Montana was not what I would call whiny, but I cant honestly say I was watching him close enough to notice.


As for Elway and Eli.......I personally dont know where thats coming from in the smallest form.
It mainly a perception that stems from Elway not going to Baltimore, and Eli not going to Sandiego.

I would say Elway is looked down on morso than Eli for that though.

NightTrainLayne
07-14-2010, 03:13 PM
Really? Did you really just post this? Cutler's diabetes is type 1 (genetic). You're thinking of type 2 which occurs in people that are usually grossly obese. This was all covered EXTENSIVELY when it was discovered that Cutler had diabetes but because you already hated him for taking Plummer's job, you didn't pay attention.

Blaming Cutler for having diabetes is like blaming Orton for being ugly or Clady for being tall... it's just ignorant. :tsk:

Simply in interest of keeping the Diabetes argument factual, Type 1 can have a genetic cause, or can also be triggered by infection/damage to the pancreas.

Type 2 is typically caused by poor diet/obesity.

Obviously Jay acquiring Type 1 is not his fault, but there is a possible other cause besides just genetic.

Of course, all of this is going by memory from when Jay was diagnosed, and I did quite a bit of reading on it because Type 1 diagnosis past adolescence is very rare.

Ravage!!!
07-14-2010, 03:16 PM
I never heard Young was whiny. I know Montana was a real dick to him when San Fran grabbed Young from Tampa Bay. Thats my main beef with Montana, and the way he has treated the NFL since retirement.

It mainly a perception that stems from Elway not going to Baltimore, and Eli not going to Sandiego.

I would say Elway is looked down on morso than Eli for that though.

Steve whined a lot when he wasn't getting playing time. If you want to call it whining. I think, as most examples here, are purely speculative observations of "whining".. and only fit when the person using the term wants to make it fit.

I like Steve Young.. I would never call him a whiner, but he did complain about not getting playing time. Others would use that as a reason to call him a whiner. Elway not only did not WANT to play for the coach in Baltimore, but WOULD not play for the coach in Baltimore. Some would call that whining. Eli... just didn't want to be in the same conference as his brother (at least thats what I think). Some here want to call Jay a whiner, because it fits what they want.

Hell, we can definitely say that Plummer was a whiner. He wanted to be traded to Houston, and when he wasn't.. he quit the entire NFL.

claymore
07-14-2010, 03:22 PM
Steve whined a lot when he wasn't getting playing time. If you want to call it whining. I think, as most examples here, are purely speculative observations of "whining".. and only fit when the person using the term wants to make it fit.

I like Steve Young.. I would never call him a whiner, but he did complain about not getting playing time. Others would use that as a reason to call him a whiner. Elway not only did not WANT to play for the coach in Baltimore, but WOULD not play for the coach in Baltimore. Some would call that whining. Eli... just didn't want to be in the same conference as his brother (at least thats what I think). Some here want to call Jay a whiner, because it fits what they want.

Hell, we can definitely say that Plummer was a whiner. He wanted to be traded to Houston, and when he wasn't.. he quit the entire NFL.
I cant blame Young for wanting to play. As for the rest of these guys, they are young, and eventually mature. I know I would complain about stuff when I was 20 that I would smack myself for today.

Without saying to many bad things about Plummer, he never grew out of that IMO. He remained selfshish. Elway, Eli (so far), Young (after he got to play) etc... have grown out of their youthful selfish whiny stuff...

claymore
07-14-2010, 03:22 PM
Simply in interest of keeping the Diabetes argument factual, Type 1 can have a genetic cause, or can also be triggered by infection/damage to the pancreas.

Type 2 is typically caused by poor diet/obesity.

Obviously Jay acquiring Type 1 is not his fault, but there is a possible other cause besides just genetic.

Of course, all of this is going by memory from when Jay was diagnosed, and I did quite a bit of reading on it because Type 1 diagnosis past adolescence is very rare.
My MOm Developed Type 1 in her 30's from an infection. It is possible.

WARHORSE
07-14-2010, 03:23 PM
I'm hoping that you are joking, and only saying this because of the other thread. But since I don't want to make a guess on that, what part of Wiz's quote (of which I provided) did I misunderstand? Doesn't he flat out say "when tebow was still there at 25 ..." suggesting that he :shocked: when Tebow was still there at 25, thus "pulled the trigger to get the heat"? He even is suggesting that Shanahan didn't have the intention of drafting Cutler in the first, but only pullled the trigger when he was still available. What am I misunderstanding here?

I guess its the rest of his response, not just the 'tebow was there at 25'.


He definitely wasnt saying what you interpreted imo.

He didnt say McD was shocked at finding him at 25 and therefore mortgaged his picks.

Youre response suggested to me that it was McDs sole plan to aquire Tebow.

Jr was referring to Ortons situation and possible offseason scenarios next year concerning Orton.


I believe Josh and X went into the draft with a plan to trade down for flexibility. But making plans for it doesnt mean you will get the trading partners.

It just so happens we got tremendous flexibility, and aquired many picks, thereby giving him the option of taking Tebow there.

They took Thomas first.

It has been speculated that Denver moved up because they heard Buffalo was trying to get back in the first to draft him, so we dont really know what pressures effected their decision.

But regardless, Denver thought Tebow was valuable.
Each team ranks its draft board, and Tebow was obviously very high on Denvers board.

LRtagger
07-14-2010, 03:27 PM
Thats why I said if all else is equal. If you have two guys that are of equal ability, but one has the stronger arm, thats the direction you go. If the other has more abilty as to what you are looking for, then that is the way you go.

"When all else is equal" doesn't really relate to the Cutler discussion, though. Jay might have a top 3 arm in the league, but he is not even a top 15 QB in the league. Obviously if two guys are equal in every aspect but one has a bigger arm, then a coach would take the one with the bigger arm.

But if you have two guys, one has incredible touch and accuracy and one has a big arm, I bet a coach would take the accuracy and touch over the arm strength. That was what brought it up originally I thought - touch vs rocket arm.

WARHORSE
07-14-2010, 03:45 PM
My agenda, opinion whatever you want to call it, is that KO is a limited qb with little to no upside, McD would not have traded for BQ and drafted baby Jesus if he didnt feel the same, but again love you some KO all you want, but I for one will be happy to see him heading out of town sooner than later!


"When all else is equal" doesn't really relate to the Cutler discussion, though. Jay might have a top 3 arm in the league, but he is not even a top 15 QB in the league. Obviously if two guys are equal in every aspect but one has a bigger arm, then a coach would take the one with the bigger arm.

But if you have two guys, one has incredible touch and accuracy and one has a big arm, I bet a coach would take the accuracy and touch over the arm strength. That was what brought it up originally I thought - touch vs rocket arm.


Montana was a great example of a player who knew the position and thrived even though he had a limited arm. One only need watch the Montana KC/Elway Denver game to see that regardless of the talent around them, they both excelled.

Ravage!!!
07-14-2010, 04:23 PM
Youre response suggested to me that it was McDs sole plan to aquire Tebow.

.

Yes.. I do think that the plan was to acquire Tebow. I think that was the plan from moment one. We may have moved at that time because they were the only trading partner, or, because we heard that Buffalo may go after him. I don't know. But I absolutely believe that the plan was to get picks to move back into the first to get Tebow.

Regarding JR's comments... he said that he didn't think it had anything to do with McD not believing Orton is the long term solution. But if that truly didn't come into consideration, why would you take the chance and spend the money on a 1st round QB draft pick instead of spending the money on a 'sure thing' long term solution that is already on the roster? So I believe it absolutely came into consideration that he believe Orton is not the long term solution at QB. Otherwise, you wouldn't spend a 1st on a QB.

Ravage!!!
07-14-2010, 04:29 PM
The thing is, a lot of strong armed QBs have a tendency to do that (throwing the ball too hard) when coming out of college. I remember hearing the same things about Elway. Not comparing Jay to John, but what I'm saying is... if a GREAT QB coming out of college has the same problems of throwing that "catchable ball".. instead of putting too much heat on it (as John did early), then I don't have any reason to believe that a guy like Jay would do the same thing.

But who cares about throwing the deep ball with the lob under it? Thats not where the strong arm comes into play. All QBs can throw a deep long ball, when putting air under it, especially with time to sit. Same with any pass. The strong arm comes into play when the pocket breaks down, when the QB can't take a full step forward, and when he may not be able to set his feet completely. Thats why all coaches/GMs would take the stronger armed QB over another if everything else is equal.


"When all else is equal" doesn't really relate to the Cutler discussion, though. Jay might have a top 3 arm in the league, but he is not even a top 15 QB in the league. Obviously if two guys are equal in every aspect but one has a bigger arm, then a coach would take the one with the bigger arm.

But if you have two guys, one has incredible touch and accuracy and one has a big arm, I bet a coach would take the accuracy and touch over the arm strength. That was what brought it up originally I thought - touch vs rocket arm.

It wasn't referencencing Cutler. It was talking about throwing the ball deep, because someone said that Orton couldn't throw deep, another said he could, and I was saying that the strong arm doesn't come into play for the LONG deep ball. So it wasn't a Cutler discussion, and wasn't comparing him to anyone else.

Although, I think the strong arm and "all else equal" absolutely applies to Cutler. But again, if the coach is lookign for touch, then he'll take the touch on the ball. But Cutler is absolutely accurate. SO if you have an accurate passer that is touch, and an accurate passer that has a rocket, it would then probably go down to other tangible and intangible traits that would make that coach choose. Perhaps purely based on his likes over another. I feel confident, that coaches prefer strong arms in the NFL considering its a passing league with tight windows.

TXBRONC
07-14-2010, 04:44 PM
Youre response suggested to me that it was McDs sole plan to aquire Tebow.

I think Ravage is correct. We'll never know with absolute certainty that McDaniels plans including taking Tebow at some point but I don't think it's stretch. Just look how it all played out once he caught wind of that Bills were interested in trading back into the first to get Tim McDaniel jumped all over it like stink on doggie dodo. It's not a bad and McDaniels isn't the first coach to do that nor will he be the last.

Ravage!!!
07-14-2010, 04:57 PM
I dunno, I think most NFL coaches would take Rivers over Cutler all day. Most of the great QBs in the league are not known for their strong arms, but more for their accuracy. Manning, Brees, Brady, Rivers etc are not known for their rocket arms but for their accuracy and poise which is what Cutler lacks.

Cutler doesn't lack in accuracy, and is poise in the pocket is pretty damned impressive. He is always willing to sit in the pocket, and/or step up and take one in the chops while delivering the ball. Cutler's problem is the willingness to take too many chances, and believe in his arm too much or not taking the moment to make that extra read because he has too much confidence in that arm strength.

But I can point out that Elway, Bradshaw, Marino, Young, Favre... are all known for their arm strength as well as the rest (I would also argue that Manning is very well known for his strong arm).

We can find all kind of successful QBs. None are the same, and the varied types dont have a pattern as to what is successful over another type.

topscribe
07-14-2010, 05:53 PM
Cutler doesn't lack in accuracy, and is poise in the pocket is pretty damned impressive. He is always willing to sit in the pocket, and/or step up and take one in the chops while delivering the ball. Cutler's problem is the willingness to take too many chances, and believe in his arm too much or not taking the moment to make that extra read because he has too much confidence in that arm strength.

But I can point out that Elway, Bradshaw, Marino, Young, Favre... are all known for their arm strength as well as the rest (I would also argue that Manning is very well known for his strong arm).

We can find all kind of successful QBs. None are the same, and the varied types dont have a pattern as to what is successful over another type.

I agree, except for your comment on Manning. He is nowhere near the others
you mentioned in sheer arm strength. But he does have uncanny accuracy on
his deep passes (and medium and short, for that matter), as you know . . .

-----

GGMoogly
07-14-2010, 06:13 PM
Sorry, I don't have the wherewithal to read though all the posts...have we decided who sucks more yet? :confused:

topscribe
07-14-2010, 06:19 PM
Sorry, I don't have the wherewithal to read though all the posts...have we decided who sucks more yet? :confused:

Yeah. Claymore.

-----

dunk7
07-14-2010, 09:31 PM
Can I just point out that Orton struggled getting off the bench with Rex Grossman as the starter....'nuff said.

topscribe
07-14-2010, 09:34 PM
Can I just point out that Orton struggled getting off the bench with Rex Grossman as the starter....'nuff said.

Can I just point out how little you know about that situation? . . . 'nuff said.

-----

dunk7
07-14-2010, 11:11 PM
Can I just point out how little you know about that situation? . . . 'nuff said.

-----

True...I forgot to mention he was also buried behind Griese and Grossman on the depth chart and how Jerry Angelo didn't think Orton was a long term solution at QB.

But seeing as though you are deeply entrenched in the Bears war room and understand the intricacies of the situation, I will retract my statement.

topscribe
07-15-2010, 01:46 AM
True...I forgot to mention he was also buried behind Griese and Grossman on the depth chart and how Jerry Angelo didn't think Orton was a long term solution at QB.

But seeing as though you are deeply entrenched in the Bears war room and understand the intricacies of the situation, I will retract my statement.

Sarcasm will not cover the fact that you do not know whereof you speak. Either
that, or you refuse to honestly include that Griese went down the road, and
Orton won the job over Grossman in preseason in 2008 - and kept the job, even
after he was hobbled by a high ankle sprain.

And, despite your sarcasm, it is true that I know more about Orton's history
than nearly, if not literally, everyone on this board, except for Ursamajor.

-----

sneakers
07-15-2010, 02:21 AM
Hey at least we are not on Plummer vs Cutler anymore!

TXBRONC
07-15-2010, 04:18 PM
Hey at least we are not on Plummer vs Cutler anymore!

And now that you've said that....:D

T.K.O.
07-15-2010, 04:50 PM
Hey at least we are not on Plummer vs Cutler anymore!

cutler can't even grow a neckbeard ! let alone achieve the "mountain man look.......sheesh:rolleyes:

underrated29
07-15-2010, 05:24 PM
cutler can't even grow a neckbeard ! let alone achieve the "mountain man look.......sheesh:rolleyes:


You know, all the cleaner cut Qbs that were starters performed well...Johnny boy, cutler.....jake and orton-the scruffy guys- they do admirably but nothing amazazing..


Quinner and Tebers are both on the clean cut side....I wonder which will be cutler and which will be elroy?

topscribe
07-15-2010, 09:01 PM
You know, all the cleaner cut Qbs that were starters performed well...Johnny boy, cutler.....jake and orton-the scruffy guys- they do admirably but nothing amazazing..


Quinner and Tebers are both on the clean cut side....I wonder which will be cutler and which will be elroy?

Well, Orton has started shaving, so expect great things from him! :D

-----

BroncoWave
07-15-2010, 09:17 PM
Hey at least we are not on Plummer vs Cutler anymore!

I miss those days. :(

tomjonesrocks
07-15-2010, 09:46 PM
Orton sucks. :coffee:

dunk7
07-15-2010, 09:51 PM
Sarcasm will not cover the fact that you do not know whereof you speak. Either
that, or you refuse to honestly include that Griese went down the road, and
Orton won the job over Grossman in preseason in 2008 - and kept the job, even
after he was hobbled by a high ankle sprain.

And, despite your sarcasm, it is true that I know more about Orton's history
than nearly, if not literally, everyone on this board, except for Ursamajor.

-----

Didn't realize there was a man crush, my apologies...

Can you explain to me though why he sat the entire 2006 season? Dumb luck?

topscribe
07-15-2010, 11:15 PM
Didn't realize there was a man crush, my apologies...

Can you explain to me though why he sat the entire 2006 season? Dumb luck?

Nah. Just make up your own reasons.

You seem to do quite well at that . . . :coffee:

-----

Tned
07-16-2010, 02:01 AM
I guess its the rest of his response, not just the 'tebow was there at 25'.


He definitely wasnt saying what you interpreted imo.

He didnt say McD was shocked at finding him at 25 and therefore mortgaged his picks.

Youre response suggested to me that it was McDs sole plan to aquire Tebow.

Jr was referring to Ortons situation and possible offseason scenarios next year concerning Orton.


I believe Josh and X went into the draft with a plan to trade down for flexibility. But making plans for it doesnt mean you will get the trading partners.

It just so happens we got tremendous flexibility, and aquired many picks, thereby giving him the option of taking Tebow there.

They took Thomas first.

It has been speculated that Denver moved up because they heard Buffalo was trying to get back in the first to draft him, so we dont really know what pressures effected their decision.

But regardless, Denver thought Tebow was valuable.
Each team ranks its draft board, and Tebow was obviously very high on Denvers board.

I don't have time to see if I can find a printed quote right now, but I believe it was ESPN's Ed Warder that said pre-draft or as Denver's first pick approached (he was reporting from Denver I believe) something along the lines of "don't be surprised if Denver has two picks in the first round", then, after the Tebow pick, or after the first round ended, he related how McDaniels had shown him a text message from Tebow and how he planned to trade back and to get an extra first to draft Tebow. I can't remember if he said that McDaniels mentioned Thomas by name, or only that he was going to get an WR also or what.

There might very well be a clip of this floating around somewhere, or others may remember more about those statements Warder made.

The point is, that unless Warder completely fabricated the story post first round, and took a blind shot in the dark that turned out true pre first round, McDaniels clearly didn't take Tebow just because he was still there, but instead went in with the intention of taking Tebow late in the first, but before he felt he was in danger of being picked by anyone else.

Bosco
07-16-2010, 05:52 PM
I don't have time to see if I can find a printed quote right now, but I believe it was ESPN's Ed Warder that said pre-draft or as Denver's first pick approached (he was reporting from Denver I believe) something along the lines of "don't be surprised if Denver has two picks in the first round", then, after the Tebow pick, or after the first round ended, he related how McDaniels had shown him a text message from Tebow and how he planned to trade back and to get an extra first to draft Tebow. I can't remember if he said that McDaniels mentioned Thomas by name, or only that he was going to get an WR also or what.

There might very well be a clip of this floating around somewhere, or others may remember more about those statements Warder made.

The point is, that unless Warder completely fabricated the story post first round, and took a blind shot in the dark that turned out true pre first round, McDaniels clearly didn't take Tebow just because he was still there, but instead went in with the intention of taking Tebow late in the first, but before he felt he was in danger of being picked by anyone else.

That's what I've heard as well.

The Broncos apparently went into the first round wanting either Thomas or Tebow. After they acquired a bunch of picks by trading back into Thomas's range and then watching Tebow fall into the late first, they decided it was feasible to move back up into the first and get both players.

Tned
07-17-2010, 01:09 AM
That's what I've heard as well.

The Broncos apparently went into the first round wanting either Thomas or Tebow. After they acquired a bunch of picks by trading back into Thomas's range and then watching Tebow fall into the late first, they decided it was feasible to move back up into the first and get both players.

According to Werder it wasn't an either or, but that McDaniels went into round one intending to trade down to enable him to pick twice in the first round and pick both players.

I'm really surprised nobody else saw/remembers Ed Werder's reporting about how McDaniels plan going into round one was to get both players. There was no "wow, Tebows still there, we better grab him", all the maneuvering he did was to get both players.

I haven't been able to locate a video clip of werder from draft night, but this was a summary of an interview Werder did on VicandGary.com a day or two after the draft:


http://www.vicandgary.com/page/podcasts-1

This podcast has a very interesting conversation with Ed Werder from ESPN who talked to Josh McDaniels before the draft. Really good stuff. Some of the things said by Werder:

. Werder spent time with McDaniels on Wednesday, talking about the Broncos draft plan for 1:30 hour. He said he proved over time that he was worthy of the trust.

. He was told the plan was to move down to get Demaryius Thomas who was the number 1 WR on our board. McDaniels also wanted to come back and get Tim Tebow at the bottom of the round

. McDaniels said he grew in a football environment because of his father, and football always meant a lot to him. He only found few people who love football like his father and he believes Tim Tebow is this kind of guy

. McDaniels said that if he could not get Tim Tebow,he would feel like he was punched in the gut and Tebow would feel the same way

. McDaniels showed Werder a text message from Tebow telling he was going out to buy Broncos hats for everyone in his house. That's how much Tebow wanted to play for McDaniels

I gotta say these strong words made me feel very excited about what McDaniels and Tebow might be able to accomplish together.

It was posted on Broncos Country (http://forums.denverbroncos.com/showpost.php?p=3260523&postcount=11). The podcast is no longer on vicandgary.com, but this is also what Werder said during ESPN's draft coverage of the first round. Specifically, he said before round one that you shouldn't be surprised if Denver picked twice in the first round (obviously, to honor McDaniels trust, he couldn't say any more than that). After the first round, he related the story about how McDaniels had shown him the text message from Tebow and how his plan all along was to draft Thomas and Tebow.

And here was something posted on here about the same podcast/interview with Werder:


On:

http://www.vicandgary.com/page/podcasts-1

Listen to the Ed Werder (espn interview). McDaniels really opened up to Werder before the draft telling Ed that the Broncos wanted Demaryus Thomas and then Tebow late in the 1st round. Werder asked Josh "what would it feel like if you don't get Tebow?:" "Like I've been punched in the gut," said McDaniels. Then McDaniels handed Werder his cell phone and there was a text from Tebow. Tebow said he was going out to buy bronco hats for his family so he could hand them out when Denver drafted him.

Bosco
07-17-2010, 01:17 AM
According to Werder it wasn't an either or, but that McDaniels went into round one intending to trade down to enable him to pick twice in the first round and pick both players.

I'm really surprised nobody else saw/remembers Ed Werder's reporting about how McDaniels plan going into round one was to get both players. There was no "wow, Tebows still there, we better grab him", all the maneuvering he did was to get both players.

I haven't been able to locate a video clip of werder from draft night, but this was a summary of an interview Werder did on VicandGary.com a day or two after the draft:



It was posted on Broncos Country (http://forums.denverbroncos.com/showpost.php?p=3260523&postcount=11). The podcast is no longer on vicandgary.com, but this is also what Werder said during ESPN's draft coverage of the first round. Specifically, he said before round one that you shouldn't be surprised if Denver picked twice in the first round (obviously, to honor McDaniels trust, he couldn't say any more than that). After the first round, he related the story about how McDaniels had shown him the text message from Tebow and how his plan all along was to draft Thomas and Tebow.

And here was something posted on here about the same podcast/interview with Werder:

That's pretty impressive stuff there.

Tned
07-17-2010, 01:33 AM
That's pretty impressive stuff there.

Regardless of whether people like the Tebow pick or not (I liked it), it's important to realize that McDaniels didn't make some panicked move back into the first round to get Tebow, because he was hanging around longer than he thought he would.

From the outset, he reportedly wanted Tebow and Thomas, and all the moves he made early in the first round were designed to stock pile picks for the sole pupose of moving back into the first round to get both players he wanted.

jhildebrand
07-17-2010, 10:06 AM
According to Werder it wasn't an either or, but that McDaniels went into round one intending to trade down to enable him to pick twice in the first round and pick both players.

I'm really surprised nobody else saw/remembers Ed Werder's reporting about how McDaniels plan going into round one was to get both players. There was no "wow, Tebows still there, we better grab him", all the maneuvering he did was to get both players.

I haven't been able to locate a video clip of werder from draft night, but this was a summary of an interview Werder did on VicandGary.com a day or two after the draft:



It was posted on Broncos Country (http://forums.denverbroncos.com/showpost.php?p=3260523&postcount=11). The podcast is no longer on vicandgary.com, but this is also what Werder said during ESPN's draft coverage of the first round. Specifically, he said before round one that you shouldn't be surprised if Denver picked twice in the first round (obviously, to honor McDaniels trust, he couldn't say any more than that). After the first round, he related the story about how McDaniels had shown him the text message from Tebow and how his plan all along was to draft Thomas and Tebow.

And here was something posted on here about the same podcast/interview with Werder:

I recall the Werder clip. I am sure I could find it if I had to. He mentioned that the Broncos had their eye on 3 specific players in the first round.

I get the feeling Pouncey was one of the three. He was gone. The other two were Tebow and Thomas.

NightTrainLayne
07-17-2010, 10:40 AM
Regardless of whether people like the Tebow pick or not (I liked it), it's important to realize that McDaniels didn't make some panicked move back into the first round to get Tebow, because he was hanging around longer than he thought he would.

From the outset, he reportedly wanted Tebow and Thomas, and all the moves he made early in the first round were designed to stock pile picks for the sole pupose of moving back into the first round to get both players he wanted.

This is how I have interpreted the moves from day one, and I remember quite clearly the Werder reporting, and that it was clear from the outset that McD had planned to pick both of these guys in the first and manipulated the draft board to his advantage.

Whether or not you like the picks, you have to admire his plan, and the execution of the plan to get who he wanted. It's often impossible to get one player you really want in the 1st. McD got two.

Seems like he did something similar last year too. ..

BroncoWave
07-17-2010, 10:41 AM
I recall the Werder clip. I am sure I could find it if I had to. He mentioned that the Broncos had their eye on 3 specific players in the first round.

I get the feeling Pouncey was one of the three. He was gone. The other two were Tebow and Thomas.

This quote from Werder said nothing of a third player being targeted:

". He was told the plan was to move down to get Demaryius Thomas who was the number 1 WR on our board. McDaniels also wanted to come back and get Tim Tebow at the bottom of the round"

atwater27
07-17-2010, 11:01 AM
Wow, almost 200 posts in the Cutler vs Orton thread, when all it needed was one....
Cutler > Orton. /thread.

jhildebrand
07-17-2010, 11:16 AM
This quote from Werder said nothing of a third player being targeted:

". He was told the plan was to move down to get Demaryius Thomas who was the number 1 WR on our board. McDaniels also wanted to come back and get Tim Tebow at the bottom of the round"

The first report Ed Werder gave was from the Dallas Cowboys war room. He was outside the room and clearly stated the Broncos had their eye on 3 specific players. They would have taken any of the three in any combination theyt could get. By the time the Broncos made their first pick, Pouncey was off the board. The Broncos went on to take Thomas and Tebow. McDaniels was later asked who the third player was and he declined to answer.

BroncoWave
07-17-2010, 11:32 AM
The first report Ed Werder gave was from the Dallas Cowboys war room. He was outside the room and clearly stated the Broncos had their eye on 3 specific players. They would have taken any of the three in any combination theyt could get. By the time the Broncos made their first pick, Pouncey was off the board. The Broncos went on to take Thomas and Tebow. McDaniels was later asked who the third player was and he declined to answer.

Everything I've read said that Tebow and Thomas were the 2 guys that he set out for at the beginning of the day. This third player was probably a contingency plan in case someone grabbed one of those 2 guys.

I just don't think he would have just as happily taken any 2 of these 3. I think he was deadset on Tebow and if anything, it was between Thomas and the other guy. Had Tebow been the odd guy out of those 3, McDaniels would not have been happy.

NorCalBronco7
07-17-2010, 01:06 PM
Ive just never understood why comparisons of Cutler and Orton exist. In my mind Cutler is simply a much better qb.

Look at the body of work by both qbs. Most years Orton has been below average or non-existint in his offense. Cutler has been a force ever since he played the end of his first year.

Knowing the bears had no Ts, running game, Wrs and offensive coordinator, who is really surprised with the 26 ints he got last year? I wasnt. If Tony Romo was in the same bears offense, or any good qb, their picks would sore. You cant really hold last year agianst cutler too much.

LRtagger
07-17-2010, 04:07 PM
Ive just never understood why comparisons of Cutler and Orton exist. In my mind Cutler is simply a much better qb.

Look at the body of work by both qbs. Most years Orton has been below average or non-existint in his offense. Cutler has been a force ever since he played the end of his first year.

Knowing the bears had no Ts, running game, Wrs and offensive coordinator, who is really surprised with the 26 ints he got last year? I wasnt. If Tony Romo was in the same bears offense, or any good qb, their picks would sore. You cant really hold last year agianst cutler too much.

You cant hold it against Cutler, but you can against Orton :confused:

It's not like the Bears had all kinds of talent on offense when Orton was there and then dumped it all when Cutler came in.

I'm not saying Orton was/is better but come on, let's at least try to be fair with the argument.

topscribe
07-17-2010, 05:28 PM
You cant hold it against Cutler, but you can against Orton :confused:

It's not like the Bears had all kinds of talent on offense when Orton was there and then dumped it all when Cutler came in.

I'm not saying Orton was/is better but come on, let's at least try to be fair with the argument.

Absolutely. I'm not into who's the better QB, but I do believe in considering
both sides of it. E.g., a certain dislocated finger on the throwing hand and a
high ankle sprain (in two consecutive years) come to mind.

But I think it would be better not to debate the two at all. The only thing that
should matter to us now is whether our present QB is going to win some games . . .

-----

TXBRONC
07-17-2010, 05:28 PM
Regardless of whether people like the Tebow pick or not (I liked it), it's important to realize that McDaniels didn't make some panicked move back into the first round to get Tebow, because he was hanging around longer than he thought he would.

From the outset, he reportedly wanted Tebow and Thomas, and all the moves he made early in the first round were designed to stock pile picks for the sole pupose of moving back into the first round to get both players he wanted.

If there hadn't of been a threat the Bill were attempting to move back into the first round I wonder if McDaniels would have waited until second round to pick Tebow.

BroncoWave
07-17-2010, 05:48 PM
If there hadn't of been a threat the Bill were attempting to move back into the first round I wonder if McDaniels would have waited until second round to pick Tebow.

Why take that chance though? If you have a guy who you think will be a franchise QB and you have a chance to trade up and get him, you have to do it. There is no guarantee he would have been there in the second round and McD did what he had to do to get him.

Tned
07-17-2010, 07:39 PM
If there hadn't of been a threat the Bill were attempting to move back into the first round I wonder if McDaniels would have waited until second round to pick Tebow.

We may never know, but my guess is no he wouldn't have. It was the QB he clearly wanted and he traded back to get draft picks to move back into the first to get Tebow. I just don't see how he would risk not getting him.

All you had to do was look at the past 9 months or so and it was clear he needed to get an impact QB and an impact WR to replace the impact QB and impact WR he traded.

TXBRONC
07-17-2010, 08:03 PM
We may never know, but my guess is no he wouldn't have. It was the QB he clearly wanted and he traded back to get draft picks to move back into the first to get Tebow. I just don't see how he would risk not getting him.

All you had to do was look at the past 9 months or so and it was clear he needed to get an impact QB and an impact WR to replace the impact QB and impact WR he traded.

I just thought I would throw that out there for the halibut.

I agree what happened over the last 9 months was a clear indicator what McDaniels needed. It was rumored that Denver was interested in trading out the 11th spot in the draft and when he actually did it was clear he was going to move back in to the first round.

Tned
07-17-2010, 08:14 PM
This is how I have interpreted the moves from day one, and I remember quite clearly the Werder reporting, and that it was clear from the outset that McD had planned to pick both of these guys in the first and manipulated the draft board to his advantage.

Whether or not you like the picks, you have to admire his plan, and the execution of the plan to get who he wanted. It's often impossible to get one player you really want in the 1st. McD got two.

Seems like he did something similar last year too. ..

I will say that I don't really see last year in quite the same way. Last year, he gave up a number of picks to move up and get players like A. Smith, Quinn, Brandstater (and possibly one more I am forgetting).

The differenc in my mind is that last year he sacrificed the '09 draft and the '10 draft (using a first to draft A. Smith). He gave up quite a few picks to move up, and got very little if anything in return, meaning he was forced to draft fewer players. On a team where he was turning over most of the roster.

This year, he used his one first round pick (because he gave the other up for A. Smith in the 2nd round last year) and turned it into multiple picks, allowing him to get two first round picks, and for the most part leave the rest of his draft board alone (the same number of total picks and roughly the same positions). The net effect was essentially him moving back in the first and trading a 2nd, for a late first, with the other picks more or less the same as when we entered the draft.

Last year, he gave up a lot of value to draft players that either haven't or may not pan out. This year, he didn't.

TXBRONC
07-18-2010, 08:45 AM
Last year, he gave up a lot of value to draft players that either haven't or may not pan out. This year, he didn't.

I agree. I still would have liked McDaniels to draft a nose tackle but I still can't complain that he didn't value with picks he made in this year's draft.

It is good that you are not leaving the dark side of the force there is real power in it. ;)

NightTrainLayne
07-19-2010, 11:58 AM
I will say that I don't really see last year in quite the same way. Last year, he gave up a number of picks to move up and get players like A. Smith, Quinn, Brandstater (and possibly one more I am forgetting).

The differenc in my mind is that last year he sacrificed the '09 draft and the '10 draft (using a first to draft A. Smith). He gave up quite a few picks to move up, and got very little if anything in return, meaning he was forced to draft fewer players. On a team where he was turning over most of the roster.

This year, he used his one first round pick (because he gave the other up for A. Smith in the 2nd round last year) and turned it into multiple picks, allowing him to get two first round picks, and for the most part leave the rest of his draft board alone (the same number of total picks and roughly the same positions). The net effect was essentially him moving back in the first and trading a 2nd, for a late first, with the other picks more or less the same as when we entered the draft.

Last year, he gave up a lot of value to draft players that either haven't or may not pan out. This year, he didn't.

I should have been more clear in my post, but I was referring to McD getting two players that he targeted in the first round, when it is difficult to make sure that you even get the one player you want in the first round.

Last year, if you remember, McD wanted Moreno and Ayers, but rightly surmised that Moreno would still be there a few picks later, and he didn't feel that Ayers would be so he took Ayers first, and then Moreno was still there a few picks later to get.

I really didn't intend to get into all the other horse-trading, just the feat of getting two players that he had actually targeted in the first round two years in a row.

underrated29
07-19-2010, 12:05 PM
I should have been more clear in my post, but I was referring to McD getting two players that he targeted in the first round, when it is difficult to make sure that you even get the one player you want in the first round.

Last year, if you remember, McD wanted Moreno and Ayers, but rightly surmised that Moreno would still be there a few picks later, and he didn't feel that Ayers would be so he took Ayers first, and then Moreno was still there a few picks later to get.

I really didn't intend to get into all the other horse-trading, just the feat of getting two players that he had actually targeted in the first round two years in a row.




You got it twisted NTL....


The bolts were going to take moreno. So we took him first, then we were pissing our pants because ayers was still there. We originally were oging to do it the way you stated first, but felt the heat from the bolts for knowshon so we swiped him up first and let them hang dry.


Knowshon fist, then ayers..:salute:

NightTrainLayne
07-19-2010, 12:13 PM
You got it twisted NTL....


The bolts were going to take moreno. So we took him first, then we were pissing our pants because ayers was still there. We originally were oging to do it the way you stated first, but felt the heat from the bolts for knowshon so we swiped him up first and let them hang dry.


Knowshon fist, then ayers..:salute:

:doh: I always do that. Somehow I got it backwards in my head a year ago, and it's like a mental block now. You are absolutely right that the motive was not only to secure Moreno, but to make sure he didn't go to the Bolts (or at least that was the rumor).

Anyways, McD still got the two guys he targeted. .. switch the names around in my post.

topscribe
07-19-2010, 12:21 PM
You got it twisted NTL....


The bolts were going to take moreno. So we took him first, then we were pissing our pants because ayers was still there. We originally were oging to do it the way you stated first, but felt the heat from the bolts for knowshon so we swiped him up first and let them hang dry.


Knowshon fist, then ayers..:salute:

Well, that and, the way McD explained it, they wanted both Moreno and Ayers,
and they figured Ayers would more likely be there at 18 than Moreno, IIRC . . .

-----

underrated29
07-19-2010, 01:11 PM
Well, that and, the way McD explained it, they wanted both Moreno and Ayers,
and they figured Ayers would more likely be there at 18 than Moreno, IIRC . . .

-----



Your memory serves correct.

TXBRONC
07-19-2010, 01:40 PM
:doh: I always do that. Somehow I got it backwards in my head a year ago, and it's like a mental block now. You are absolutely right that the motive was not only to secure Moreno, but to make sure he didn't go to the Bolts (or at least that was the rumor).

Anyways, McD still got the two guys he targeted. .. switch the names around in my post.

I thought McDaniels got all the player he wanted last year as well. Anyway it's not the players McDaniels took that is problematic but giving up first rounder for a 2nd round pick wasn't a good move imo that is.

Lonestar
07-19-2010, 02:38 PM
Other than not getting a DL guy on day one I was estatic the way the draft finished.

We got a lot of potential in the draft at almost every position of need today and in the future.

I think we will see some of of kiddies start to step up on the DL at least that is the drift I get oit of not drafting some.

Perhaps with a stable scheme and REAL coaches teaching thm Baker, Thomas, Smith and a few others may develop into top players.
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Tned
07-19-2010, 04:08 PM
I should have been more clear in my post, but I was referring to McD getting two players that he targeted in the first round, when it is difficult to make sure that you even get the one player you want in the first round.

Last year, if you remember, McD wanted Moreno and Ayers, but rightly surmised that Moreno would still be there a few picks later, and he didn't feel that Ayers would be so he took Ayers first, and then Moreno was still there a few picks later to get.

I really didn't intend to get into all the other horse-trading, just the feat of getting two players that he had actually targeted in the first round two years in a row.

Gotcha, from that standpoint, I agree. On top of him getting who he wants, I still see a lot of promise in those picks. While many are down on Moreno after last year, I saw enough to be excited. With Ayers, Mayock was insistant that he believed three years down the road Ayers would be the best defensive player to come out of that draft.

I like some of the young talent on this team.