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nevcraw
07-12-2010, 11:57 AM
Didn't see this posted here - a long read for the dog days of pre-TC - thanks Tubby at the freak..

http://fifthdown.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/07/07/denver-broncos-2010-season-preview/?pagemode=print

July 7, 2010, 12:24 pm

Denver Broncos 2010 Season Preview
By ANDY BENOIT
David Zalubowski/Associated Press Broncos Coach Josh McDaniels and Tim Tebow. By choosing Tebow in the draft, McDaniels was betting on his coaching skills — and his future.
Andy Benoit is the founder of NFLTouchdown.com and a writer for CBSSports.com’s N.F.L. blog. He can be contacted at andy.benoit –at – NFLTouchdown.com.

When you look at Josh McDaniels, what do you see? A beacon of confidence, or a portrait of arrogance? The embodiment of wisdom or the epitome of hubris? One thing has been clear since the day Pat Bowlen hired the organization’s fourth coach in 29 years: Josh McDaniels is the Denver Broncos. So your opinion of the man determines your outlook of the 2010 Denver Broncos.

So, what to make of McDaniels? The answer doesn’t seem difficult, but when you open your mouth to say it, nothing comes out. He’s either a hero or a villain – you just can’t yet tell which. All you know is that it’s one extreme or the other. It has to be – everything McDaniels has done thus far has been extreme.

First, there was the system overhaul: West Coast offense and 4-3 defense out, spread offense and 3-4 defense in. Then there was the Jay Cutler trade, one of the boldest N.F.L. personnel moves of the last 10 years. Throughout all this, Bronco headquarters took on a haughty Patriot tone, and McDaniels carried himself with the demeanor of a seasoned coach leading a team expected to go 12-4, rather than a rookie coach leading a team expected to go 4-12.

In McDaniels’s first regular season, the Broncos started 6-0. The defense allowed 10.1 points per game in that stretch and the offense, chaperoned by the caretaker quarterback Kyle Orton, was effective with a pass-first approach. However, after their bye week, the Broncos went 2-8. The defense gave up 25.8 points per game in those outings, and the offense became exposed in new ways each week. In the end, Denver’s system and roster had changed, but with a late-season collapse and .500 record, the results hadn’t.

If the 34-year-old McDaniels learned any lessons from Year 1, he hasn’t talked about them publicly. He approached the 2010 off-season with the same resolve as in 2009, making changes that left Bronco fans gasping in horror or delight (still can’t tell which). McDaniels abolished the zone-blocking system that, for 15 years, made Denver the manufacturing center for 1,000-yard rushers. It was the last remnant of the Shanahan era. In its place is the power-blocking scheme used in New England.

Defensively, the front line was overhauled. Three different free agents from three prominent A.F.C. 3-4 units were brought in: Justin Bannan from Baltimore, Jarvis Green from New England and nose tackle Jamal Williams from San Diego. All are upgrades over their predecessors, but all are also on the wrong side of 30.

Signing older defensive linemen is hardly controversial, though. In the spring, McDaniels made Brandon Marshall and Tony Scheffler, who weren’t shy about expressing criticism, his new Jay Cutlers. He shipped Marshall, one of five players in league history to catch 100 balls in three straight seasons, to Miami, and dealt Scheffler, a smooth receiving tight end who was the offense’s key mismatch creator, to Detroit. A few weeks before that, McDaniels had called quarterback Kyle Orton to tell him that the team traded fullback Peyton Hillis and a pair of late-round draft picks to Cleveland for former first-rounder Brady Quinn, and that Orton would now have to win an open competition to retain his starting job. (McDaniels has since declared Orton his starter.)

Of course, none of these off-season moves were as substantial as the one made on draft day. After using the 22nd overall pick on Georgia Tech wideout Demaryius Thomas, the Broncos traded back into the first round to select Florida quarterback Tim Tebow at 25. The most polarizing player heading into the draft became the most polarizing selection made by arguably the game’s most polarizing coach.

With the Tebow selection, McDaniels was betting his future and legacy, but he also seemed to be trumpeting his coaching abilities. You could almost hear him thinking, These people think I can’t make Tebow an N.F.L. passer….don’t they know I’m a big reason the ’08 Patriots won 11 games with Matt Freakin’ Cassel!? and “So what if our roster is only good but not great? My system will take care of everything. McDaniels is about building for the future, but not at the expense of winning in the present.

Spending a first-round pick on a player who most likely won’t see the field for a year or two shows extreme confidence. Or….is it arrogance?

Offense

There never was a quarterback competition in Denver. Josh McDaniels and offensive coordinator Mike McCoy eventually admitted this. Tim Tebow may play in a special package or two, but over all, his rookie year will be about honing mechanics, learning pro systems and proving himself to veteran teammates who might not like hearing outsiders carry on about a barely 23-year-old third-stringer’s amazing leadership abilities.

This leaves Kyle Orton and Brady Quinn, which is hardly a competition. Quinn often had perfect pass protection in Cleveland but played like a quarterback under duress. His reluctance to be aggressive with deep passes won’t be as big a problem in Denver’s controlled system as it was in Cleveland’s, but his accuracy woes figure to be. If the Broncos saw Quinn as anything more than a backup, they never would have drafted Tebow.

As for Orton….he’s as average as a ham sandwich, a vanilla ice cream cone and a rerun of Friends all rolled into one. But he proved in 2009 that he can run this spread system. McDaniels does a wonderful job of schematically simplifying Orton’s reads and forcing him to get rid of the ball quickly, with a high percentage of passes being thrown within 10 yards of the line of scrimmage.

Given Orton’s meager arm strength, expect more quick-strike pass attempts in 2010. To discourage defenses from playing man coverage or disguising their zones, the Broncos will often align in 3 x 1 sets (three receivers on one side of the field, one on the other) and attack underneath.

First-round rookie Demaryius Thomas is more of a deep weapon and may have to develop as a route runner. That said, coaches like his intelligence and expect him to be the No. 1 option right away. The veteran wideouts – Jabar Gaffney, Eddie Royal, Brandon Stokley – are all built to be short-to-intermediate receivers. Of the bunch, Royal stands out. He was expected to use his speed and shiftiness to become this offense’s Wes Welker, but he struggled in the system and followed his 91-catch, 980-yard rookie season with a 37-catch, 345-yard sophomore campaign. Smooth slot option Jabar Gaffney will quickly ascend to the No. 2 spot if coaches sense Royal is indeed on a Keary Colbert/Michael Clayton-like track. Royal, who may wind up as the slot receiver, could even fall behind electrifying but non-achieving veteran Brandon Lloyd or well-built third-round rookie Eric Decker.

With Scheffler gone, Daniel Graham – the best blocking tight end in football – might expect to finally get his wish for a bigger role in the passing game. But Graham shouldn’t get his hopes up. Even though the only other drafted tight end on the roster – last year’s second-round pick Richard Quinn – is strictly a blocker, Denver will most likely use a fourth wideout in the slot that Scheffler often occupied. Graham simply isn’t nimble enough to play from a two-point stance.

In the running game, McDaniels prefers single-back formations. Second-year back Knowshon Moreno is more talented than 10th-year veteran Correll Buckhalter, but given that Moreno hit a wall as a rookie last December and showed a tendency to unnecessarily bounce plays outside, expect the downhill-centric Buckhalter to get his share of carries again (at least early on).

The offensive line should respond to its new system just fine. The Broncos said goodbye to inside agility-based veterans Ben Hamilton and Casey Wiegmann, and drafted Zane Beadles and J.D. Walton in the second and third rounds. Beadles was a left tackle at Utah but is expected to eventually take over for utility backup Russ Hochstein as the starting left guard. Walton is a limited but gritty drive-blocker who may wind up starting at center.

Left tackle Ryan Clady is more equipped for a zone system, but players with his rare gifts can thrive in any scheme. Clady’s biggest challenge will be recovering from the patellar tendon tear he suffered while playing pickup basketball in late April. Right tackle Ryan Harris hopes off-season toe surgery will solve the problems that caused him to take a step back in ’09. If Harris is healthy, he and underrated guard Chris Kuper – a recent recipient of a five-year, $25.5 million contract extension – could form the best right-side blocking tandem in the league.

nevcraw
07-12-2010, 11:57 AM
Defense

At the crux of Denver’s collapse in ’09 was the decline of the undersized front seven. The linebacking corps was not good enough to compensate for the shortcomings of a no-name defensive line. McDaniels and General Manager Brian Xanders vigorously addressed this issue in the off-season.

First, they replaced coordinator Mike Nolan with respected linebackers coach Don Martindale. Then they signed longtime Chargers nose tackle Jamal Williams to a three-year deal, Ravens end Justin Bannan to a five-year deal and Patriots end Jarvis Green to four-year deal. In all, the three contracts totaled $24.5 million in guaranteed money.

Torn triceps landed the 34-year-old Williams on I.R. last September, and knee problems dogged him before that. But before ’09, Williams had missed only four games in five years, and he’d become markedly better with age. Bannan and Green are both high-energy career backups who understand the nuances of the 3-4. They’ll give the front line the lateral run-stopping prowess that it lacked a year ago. Former regular contributors Ryan McBean, Ron Fields and Marcus Thomas now provide solid depth.

With quality linemen finally in front of him, there’s no reason inside linebacker D.J. Williams can’t have a career year. Williams is as fine an athlete as you’ll find, but he needs to be more of a hunter. Mario Haggan will compete with Akin Ayodele for the other inside job (veteran Andra Davis was released). Both have good size and are straight-line players with limited range. Wesley Woodyard is nimble in coverage and can serve as the nickel linebacker, which would allow Williams to rush the passer more often. As it currently stands, Elvis Dumervil is this D’s only bona fide pass-rusher. Being 5-11 allows Dumervil to play with outstanding natural leverage, which augments his quickness and unassuming strength. After a league-leading 17 sacks in his debut at outside linebacker, he is pining for the financial stability of a long-term contract.

Robert Ayers got financially stability as a first-round pick last year and now has an opportunity to prove he deserves it. Ayers was given the starting left outside linebacker job, where his versatility should allow the front seven to be more creative and deceptive. If Darrell Reid – who, like fellow backup outside linebackers Jarvis Moss and Baraka Atkins, is a former defensive lineman – recovers from knee surgery, he’ll be the first outside option off the bench. Denver has its fingers crossed, as Reid is the only reliable source of outside depth.

Even with an improved front seven, teams will still try to run against this Broncos D. After all, it beats having to face the secondary. Champ Bailey and Andre Goodman might be the best man-to-man cornerback tandem in the N.F.L. Being over 30, they both rely on sound technique, though being under 35, they both remain superior athletes.

Of course, as free safety Brian Dawkins shows, age doesn’t always matter. Dawkins turns 37 in October but is coming off his eighth Pro Bowl. He hasn’t lost any of his motor, pop or closing quickness. Dawkins’s heir, Darcel McBath, was drafted in the second round last year and shows true star potential. But unless McBath can learn Renaldo Hill’s strong safety position, he’ll have to continue developing from a dime role. The signing of Dolphins free agent Nate Jones tells you the Broncos didn’t expect Alphonso Smith to earn the nickel job in 2010, but the second-round pick turned heads with an impressive off-season.

Special Teams

Matt Prater is a good young kicker. Britton Colquitt became the fourth member of his family to punt in the N.F.L. when he signed as an undrafted rookie last December. He didn’t see the field but will get first crack at the punting job in training camp. Shiftiness and acceleration make Eddie Royal a potentially lethal return specialist – just ask the San Diego Chargers.

Bottom Line

You can’t win a Super Bowl with Kyle Orton, but you can maybe win a wild-card game. The Broncos aren’t explosive offensively, but they have the right personnel for McDaniels’s offense. If the improved front seven can stop the run, the defense is top-10 caliber.

Predicted Finish: 2nd A.F.C. West

TXBRONC
07-12-2010, 12:17 PM
Thanks for digging this up nev.

Interesting review when I saw that it was from the N.Y. Times I thought it would be a lot more critical, it wasn't so that's nice. Anyway thanks again. :salute:

Northman
07-12-2010, 12:36 PM
Actually, this was a fantastic article and spot on. Pretty much resemble a lot of my sentiments all offseason long.

TXBRONC
07-12-2010, 12:49 PM
Actually, this was a fantastic article and spot on. Pretty much resemble a lot of my sentiments all offseason long.

Agreed.

nevcraw
07-12-2010, 12:53 PM
I too though t it was a fair assesment and conveyed some of the same wonderings about McD's aproach I have had. (one thing for sure -- his supre strong convictions have this team on track for only boon or bust in short order.. )

A lot more critical of Brady Quinn then some but it's true his knock has been his inabability to deal with pressure.
tough to imagine Royal turning into Kerry Colbert - let's just say i hope it does not go that way..
The Ham sandwich etc. reference on Orton is the truest thing I have read since he's been a bronco.

Northman
07-12-2010, 12:59 PM
I too though t it was a fair assesment and conveyed some of the same wonderings about McD's aproach I have had. (one thing for sure -- his supre strong convictions have this team on track for only boon or bust in short order.. )

A lot more critical of Brady Quinn then some but it's true his knock has been his inabability to deal with pressure.
tough to imagine Royal turning into Kerry Colbert - let's just say i hope it does not go that way..
The Ham sandwich etc. reference on Orton is the truest thing I have read since he's been a bronco.

Yea, its probably the first article ive seen where he just shoots straight down the middle where i know a few of us stand in terms of waiting and seeing how it ends. There's no bias BS here and just tells it like it is. I wish there were more articles like this.

topscribe
07-12-2010, 01:46 PM
I too though t it was a fair assesment and conveyed some of the same wonderings about McD's aproach I have had. (one thing for sure -- his supre strong convictions have this team on track for only boon or bust in short order.. )

A lot more critical of Brady Quinn then some but it's true his knock has been his inabability to deal with pressure.
tough to imagine Royal turning into Kerry Colbert - let's just say i hope it does not go that way..
The Ham sandwich etc. reference on Orton is the truest thing I have read since he's been a bronco.

Actually, I thought it was a very good article except for the bit on Orton. That
was the most inaccurate part, IMO.

-----

underrated29
07-12-2010, 02:29 PM
Actually, I thought it was a very good article except for the bit on Orton. That
was the most inaccurate part, IMO.

-----



Top- I think your sig would be so much better if you had the text name plates for the lion as "tebow" and the lamb as "orton"..:D

TXBRONC
07-12-2010, 02:30 PM
As for Orton….he’s as average as a ham sandwich, a vanilla ice cream cone and a rerun of Friends all rolled into one. But he proved in 2009 that he can run this spread system. McDaniels does a wonderful job of schematically simplifying Orton’s reads and forcing him to get rid of the ball quickly, with a high percentage of passes being thrown within 10 yards of the line of scrimmage.

Given Orton’s meager arm strength, expect more quick-strike pass attempts in 2010. To discourage defenses from playing man coverage or disguising their zones, the Broncos will often align in 3 x 1 sets (three receivers on one side of the field, one on the other) and attack underneath.

This looks very accurate to me. What's described in the first paragraph is pretty much on target.

The only comment that might possibly be questionable is one on meager arm strength. Get Orton out of his comfort zone of where he likes to throw the ball (short to intermediate routes) then he struggles.

topscribe
07-12-2010, 02:41 PM
Top- I think your sig would be so much better if you had the text name plates for the lion as "tebow" and the lamb as "orton"..:D

Well, I assume the Broncos drafted Tebow because they expect him eventually
to become a better QB than Orton can be. I hope that is true because that will
be good for the Broncos.

However, I do not intend to bring Tebow into the issue. My comment was the
author's bit on Orton. I do not believe it is accurate, is all. It's the "meager arm
strength" bit, which has long since been disproved.

Otherwise, I enjoyed the article. I'm impressed a New York guy is otherwise so
well informed. That seems somewhat unusual . . .

-----

underrated29
07-12-2010, 03:03 PM
Well, I assume the Broncos drafted Tebow because they expect him eventually
to become a better QB than Orton can be. I hope that is true because that will
be good for the Broncos.

However, I do not intend to bring Tebow into the issue. My comment was the
author's bit on Orton. I do not believe it is accurate, is all. It's the "meager arm
strength" bit, which has long since been disproved.

Otherwise, I enjoyed the article. I'm impressed a New York guy is otherwise so
well informed. That seems somewhat unusual . . .

-----



You didnt. I was pulling a slight thread hijack.

Lonestar
07-12-2010, 04:42 PM
Actually, this was a fantastic article and spot on. Pretty much resemble a lot of my sentiments all offseason long.


must have been a bad review.

TXBRONC
07-12-2010, 04:50 PM
must have been a bad review.

Read the OP and then you wont need to assume.

NightTrainLayne
07-12-2010, 04:58 PM
Just a pre-emptive strike/reminder here. .. . let's keep this thread on topic please.

Elevation inc
07-13-2010, 08:35 AM
its actually probally one of the finest articels about the broncos since MCD became coach....its very true we are def in a boom or bust stage.....MCD made it that way....is it good or bad???? well just like the author stated time will tell.....

North i agree i like that it's straight down the middle, i agree with basically everything he stated except for the royal part....i think royal explodes this year.....he is a insane route runner(the slot is perfect for him).....using him as a outside decoy last year was just a bad call....that MCD realized needed to be fixed.....

overall i find it hilarious that a writer from the new york times can write such a awsome well minded no bias article...while our own writers in denver fail to really write anything substantial or worthwhile about the team in there own area......



NEV-----great find man.....

T.K.O.
07-13-2010, 09:00 AM
with marshall gone,orton will be forced to spread the ball around alot more.
i see royal and at least 2 other recievers having much more impact this year:beer:

Dirk
07-13-2010, 09:31 AM
Very sound article except for one thing. The quote below.


You can’t win a Super Bowl with Kyle Orton, but you can maybe win a wild-card game.

That is not a fair assessment. Trent Dilfer anyone?

If the Broncos Defense can be a top 10 as alluded to then Orton could in theory win the SB. As it is said, "Any given Sunday". :D

Elevation inc
07-13-2010, 10:11 AM
FYI for those annointing MCd as the reason doom aint signed yet....Lamar woodley owner of 25 sacks the last 2 years is being forced to play out his final year as well....and the steelers wont be giving a long term extension untill more is known about upcoming CBA....seems like doom aint the only one....at least after siging his tender he is making more than woodley now.....

http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation


from rotoworld:

The Steelers have reportedly decided not to give OLB LaMarr Woodley a contract extension before the start of the 2010 season.

Woodley will earn $550,000 in the final year of his rookie deal, and the "30 percent" rule is said to be the primary roadblock to a new contract. The organization doesn't make it a practice to negotiate during the season, so Woodley is expected to become a free agent in March. The pass rusher will be a candidate for the franchise tag next year if it's included in the next Collective Bargaining Agreement.



i belive MCD has faults, but i doom not belive the doom situation to be in his control at all......

Lonestar
07-13-2010, 11:57 AM
FYI for those annointing MCd as the reason doom aint signed yet....Lamar woodley owner of 25 sacks the last 2 years is being forced to play out his final year as well....and the steelers wont be giving a long term extension untill more is known about upcoming CBA....seems like doom aint the only one....at least after siging his tender he is making more than woodley now.....

http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation


from rotoworld:

The Steelers have reportedly decided not to give OLB LaMarr Woodley a contract extension before the start of the 2010 season.

Woodley will earn $550,000 in the final year of his rookie deal, and the "30 percent" rule is said to be the primary roadblock to a new contract. The organization doesn't make it a practice to negotiate during the season, so Woodley is expected to become a free agent in March. The pass rusher will be a candidate for the franchise tag next year if it's included in the next Collective Bargaining Agreement.



i belive MCD has faults, but i doom not belive the doom situation to be in his control at all......
But but but they will say.

It PIT and DEN are being the bad guys because other teams made exceptions.

Shame on one side or the other. You choose which is the villian.
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TXBRONC
07-13-2010, 02:05 PM
Very sound article except for one thing. The quote below.



That is not a fair assessment. Trent Dilfer anyone?

If the Broncos Defense can be a top 10 as alluded to then Orton could in theory win the SB. As it is said, "Any given Sunday". :D

Dirk, Dilfer had a dominate defense. I expect our defense to improve but will they be as elite as the 2000 Ravens?

The Buccaneers wasted several years using journeyman quarterbacks in the playoffs. While Brad Johnson wasn't elite quarterback he was solid and could put up solid numbers year in and year out.

Grover
07-13-2010, 03:03 PM
Yes, an excellent article that provides a fairly deep and knowledgable review of the team. The header in the article lists a website that the author founded. If you haven't checked it out yet, you ought to. He provides analysis of other teams that I found as good as the one on the broncos. It's interesting to read the team summaries and roster notes of our competition on the AFC West.

http://www.NFLTouchdown.com

T.K.O.
07-13-2010, 03:13 PM
Dirk, Dilfer had a dominate defense. I expect our defense to improve but will they be as elite as the 2000 Ravens?

The Buccaneers wasted several years using journeyman quarterbacks in the playoffs. While Brad Johnson wasn't elite quarterback he was solid and could up solid numbers year in and year out.

johnson had a total of 4 years where he broke the 20 td mark,his highest was 26 that year he also threw 21 picks.
he had only 1 year in his career where he eclipsed orton's 3800 yds ,and orton did it in a new system 1st year on the team.
i think orton has proven to be at least as good as the "brad johnson's" of the league:salute:

TXBRONC
07-13-2010, 03:16 PM
johnson had a total of 4 years where he broke the 20 td mark,his highest was 26 that year he also threw 21 picks.
he had only 1 year in his career where he eclipsed orton's 3800 yds ,and orton did it in a new system 1st year on the team.
i think orton has proven to be at least as good as the "brad johnson's" of the league:salute:

Ah no. Brad Johnson lead three different teams to the playoffs. How many has Orton lead to the playoffs?

Btw you might want check Johnson's stats again because missed several things.

Johnson threw for 3000 yards or more in five times. Lead three different teams to the playoffs and has Super Bowl ring. And Orton has what????

So no Orton hasn't proven that he's as good as Brad Johnson. :lol:

underrated29
07-13-2010, 03:24 PM
Ah no. Brad Johnson lead three different teams to the playoffs. How many has Orton lead to the playoffs? None.

Btw you might want check Johnson's stats again because missed several things.



Is that correct? WHile sexy rexy technically did it, was Orton not a part of that before he got pulled and then injured. With the bears that is.

T.K.O.
07-13-2010, 03:30 PM
Ah no. Brad Johnson lead three different teams to the playoffs. How many has Orton lead to the playoffs? None.

Btw you might want check Johnson's stats again because missed several things.

ah no....he only passed for 20+ td's 4 times and only passed for more yards than orton did last year once....like i said.
and you can't have your cake and eat it to. if brad johnson who has put up similar or worse stats than orton was responsible for the team winning...?:confused:

claymore
07-13-2010, 03:31 PM
Oh lord please help me...

BroncoWave
07-13-2010, 03:39 PM
Actually, I thought it was a very good article except for the bit on Orton. That
was the most inaccurate part, IMO.

-----

What exactly was inaccurate in his statements about Orton?

BroncoWave
07-13-2010, 03:46 PM
must have been a bad review.

It would do you well to actually read the article instead of bashing it based on what one person thinks about it.

FWIW, I also thought it was an excellent article.

T.K.O.
07-13-2010, 03:52 PM
it was a pretty fair assesment......however i also don't agree that orton might win a wildcard game but never a superbowl.it's been proven time and time again,if a team gets hot at the right time anything can happen in the playoffs.

proof ? look at brad johnson !

topscribe
07-13-2010, 03:55 PM
What exactly was inaccurate in his statements about Orton?

"Meager arm strength."

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Lonestar
07-13-2010, 04:01 PM
It would do you well to actually read the article instead of bashing it based on what one person thinks about it.

FWIW, I also thought it was an excellent article.

Might have to take him of iggy if he got a good post there.

But generally east coast papers are as biased as some of our members. Most of which I have on iggy.
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T.K.O.
07-13-2010, 04:02 PM
Ah no. Brad Johnson lead three different teams to the playoffs. How many has Orton lead to the playoffs?

Btw you might want check Johnson's stats again because missed several things.

Johnson threw for 3000 yards or more in five times. Lead three different teams to the playoffs and has Super Bowl ring. And Orton has what????

So no Orton hasn't proven that he's as good as Brad Johnson. :lol:

did you read what i wrote ?
i said he threw for 4000 yds once eclipsing ortons 3800+ yds once....not 3000 yds. i'm not saying he sucked his whole career,but orton has played as well.
and johnson was 18 of 34 for 215 yds with 2 td's and 1 pick in that superbowl....he hardly carried the team to victory.
in fact his passer rating,td-int ratio ,ypgand comp.% were all below orton's that post season.again....it takes a TEAM to win.
yes he was on the winning team but the surrounding cast (top defense) and the fact that he faced the raiders had more to do with that shiny ring than he did.:salute:

TXBRONC
07-13-2010, 04:17 PM
Is that correct? WHile sexy rexy technically did it, was Orton not a part of that before he got pulled and then injured. With the bears that is.

The year the Bears went to the Super Bowl Grossman led the team the entire season.


ah no....he only passed for 20+ td's 4 times and only passed for more yards than orton did last year once....like i said.
and you can't have your cake and eat it to. if brad johnson who has put up similar or worse stats than orton was responsible for the team winning...?:confused:

Ah no you are incorrect. Jonhson surpassed 3,800 yard or more on two difference occassions He has Super Bowl ring and has been to pro bowl and has throw 3,000 or more yards on five occassions. Orton does it all of one time all that puts him in the same category as Johnson? No it doesn't.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/J/JohnBr00.htm

It's not me trying have my cake and eat it to it's you missing misrepresenting Johnson's stats and thinking some how one solid year means that Orton's on par with a guy who has done more. Maybe if you actually looked Johnson's stats a little closer you wont be so confused.

topscribe
07-13-2010, 04:18 PM
Ah no. Brad Johnson lead three different teams to the playoffs. How many has Orton lead to the playoffs?

Btw you might want check Johnson's stats again because missed several things.

Johnson threw for 3000 yards or more in five times. Lead three different teams to the playoffs and has Super Bowl ring. And Orton has what????

So no Orton hasn't proven that he's as good as Brad Johnson. :lol:

I don't understand your numbers. Orton has only three years on the field. That's
all. Out of those three, he led his team to the playoffs once. He had 3,000 and
more yards twice. (Well, he had 2,972 in 2008, so that essentially is 3,000.)

But with only three years on the field, how could he match Johnson's 3,000
yards five times? Moreover, you neglected that for Johnson that was five
times out of 14 years.

So how in the world could he have possibly proven he's as good as Johnson?

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BroncoWave
07-13-2010, 04:26 PM
But generally east coast papers are as biased as some of our members. Most of which I have on iggy.
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You honestly couldn't be more wrong in this case. This was as unbiased an article as I have ever seen about the Broncos. The writer had excellent knowledge across the board about our players and coaches and presented the article very fairly.

Although the article barely says anything about Cutler or Shanny, so I guess it's not your style.

TXBRONC
07-13-2010, 04:32 PM
did you read what i wrote ?
i said he threw for 4000 yds once eclipsing ortons 3800+ yds once....not 3000 yds. i'm not saying he sucked his whole career,but orton has played as well.
and johnson was 18 of 34 for 215 yds with 2 td's and 1 pick in that superbowl....he hardly carried the team to victory.
in fact his passer rating,td-int ratio ,ypgand comp.% were all below orton's that post season.again....it takes a TEAM to win.
yes he was on the winning team but the surrounding cast (top defense) and the fact that he faced the raiders had more to do with that shiny ring than he did.:salute:

It's because he faced the Raiders that why he has ring? That's laughable arguement. It's weak at best. Orton ZERO rings, has only one good season to his name and yet he's on par with Johnson?

Facts are fact which of the two has ring? Which of the two has started multiple playoff games? Which of the two has been to the pro bowl?

topscribe
07-13-2010, 04:35 PM
It's because he faced the Raiders that why he has ring? That's laughable arguement. It's weak at best. Orton ZERO rings, has only one good season to his name and yet he's on par with Johnson?

Facts are fact which of the two has ring? Which of the two has started multiple playoff games? Which of the two has been to the pro bowl?


Wow, you are persistent. Did you miss my post, as reproduced below?


I don't understand your numbers. Orton has only three years on the field. That's
all. Out of those three, he led his team to the playoffs once. He had 3,000 and
more yards twice. (Well, he had 2,972 in 2008, so that essentially is 3,000.)

But with only three years on the field, how could he match Johnson's 3,000
yards five times? Moreover, you neglected that for Johnson that was five
times out of 14 years.

So how in the world could he have possibly proven he's as good as Johnson?

-----


And Johnson was six (6) years into the league before he went to the Pro Bowl.
Orton has not even been a pro for six years! And he has only three actually
on the field.

-----

T.K.O.
07-13-2010, 04:38 PM
It's because he faced the Raiders that why he has ring? That's laughable arguement. It's weak at best. Orton ZERO rings, has only one good season to his name and yet he's on par with Johnson?

Facts are fact which of the two has ring? Which of the two has started multiple playoff games? Which of the two has been to the pro bowl?

i said....the play of the rest of the team AND the fact that they faced the raiders had MORE to do with it than his 2 td's and 1 pick...he was pretty avg or below the entire post season you are talking about so i dont give his 1 ring in 17 years in the league a wjole hell of alot of creedence.
thats all.
and yes in ortons short career he has put up as good or better #'s (wins included) than brad "stank" johnson:D

TXBRONC
07-13-2010, 04:39 PM
You honestly couldn't be more wrong in this case. This was as unbiased an article as I have ever seen about the Broncos. The writer had excellent knowledge across the board about our players and coaches and presented the article very fairly.

Although the article barely says anything about Cutler or Shanny, so I guess it's not your style.

I agree it was fair. If anyone thinks it's a hatchet job they're clearly letting their bias get in the way of what was written.

BroncoWave
07-13-2010, 04:43 PM
I agree it was fair. If anyone thinks it's a hatchet job they're clearly letting their bias get in the way of what was written.

The fact that he refuses to even read the article simply because of where it was published and which posters like it really speaks volumes about how much he cares about being fair. If it's not 100% in line with his opinion, he just dismisses and ignores it.

TXBRONC
07-13-2010, 05:32 PM
The fact that he refuses to even read the article simply because of where it was published and which posters like it really speaks volumes about how much he cares about being fair. If it's not 100% in line with his opinion, he just dismisses and ignores it.

That aside, I do hope the guy who wrote the article is wrong about one thing. Rather than finishing second I hope we win the division.

BroncoWave
07-13-2010, 05:37 PM
That aside, I do hope the guy who wrote the article is wrong about one thing. Rather than finishing second I hope we win the division.

Agreed. That's one thing we can all agree on!

T.K.O.
07-13-2010, 05:41 PM
Ah no you are incorrect. Jonhson surpassed 3,800 yard or more on two difference occassions He has Super Bowl ring and has been to pro bowl and has throw 3,000 or more yards on five occassions. Orton does it all of one time all that puts him in the same category as Johnson? No it doesn't.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/J/JohnBr00.htm

It's not me trying have my cake and eat it to it's you missing misrepresenting Johnson's stats and thinking some how one solid year means that Orton's on par with a guy who has done more. Maybe if you actually looked Johnson's stats a little closer you wont be so confused.

so by this logic because he was on a few teams that were good enough (dispite average play by the qb at best)to get to the playoffs and win 1 superbowl. brad freakin' johnson is better than...........


Boomer Esiason




Dan Fouts


Fran Tarkenton


Jim Kelly



Dan Marino


Warren Moon


yeah....NO !:lol:

Northman
07-13-2010, 08:55 PM
You honestly couldn't be more wrong in this case. This was as unbiased an article as I have ever seen about the Broncos. The writer had excellent knowledge across the board about our players and coaches and presented the article very fairly.

Although the article barely says anything about Cutler or Shanny, so I guess it's not your style.

Spot on.